Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were there any other cars parked next to Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than--did you mention the location of these keys and the billfold to anybody?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you mention that to?

Mr. SMART. Homicide detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular one?

Mr. SMART. There was two of them. I think it was Montgomery and his partner. I am not sure. There is some new men in there that I don’t know too well. We brought all of that stuff in there, showed Captain Fritz what we had. He said, “Turn it over to them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write any report in connection with this search to the police department?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is no written report in the police department of what you just told me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be customary for anybody in the police department to have written a report of what you told them?

Mr. SMART. It could be. I gave all of my information to the homicide boys, because they were handling the case, turned the money over to them, the keys, and turned everything over to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this favor to me? Inquire of Captain Fritz, inquire and find out, if there is a report of what you told them, and, if so, give us a copy of it so we could have it for our file?

Mr. SMART. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you also find in the automobile some radio scripts or something that had to do--well, do you recall finding anything that appeared to be radio scripts or political propaganda materials?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I tell you, Mr. Griffin. I was instructed to go over there and get the money--it seemed like that is what he was worried about, his money--and bring it over and put it in the property room or have it put into the property room, and when I ran into the billfold and the keys, I thought they should be over there, too, and I told the homicide officers they should go back and make a thorough check of the trunk and also that there might be some pertinent information that they wanted, and I understood that they did. What they found, now, I don’t know. I think that the FBI went, too, but I never did go back and search anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you removed the billfold and the keys and the money?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; and a sack of miscellaneous stuff and the papers that were in the front seat pertaining to the assassination. I thought that might have some bearing. He had about four or five current----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Newspapers?

Mr. SMART. With the spreads on the front, newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be complete copies of a newspaper or were articles cut out?

Mr. SMART. Complete copies----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----

Mr. SMART. Which they were placed in the property room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; now, did you file an inventory on that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that property over to?

Mr. SMART. To these two homicide officers. All I did was count the money and initial it, so I would know myself, Swain and I did, so that we would be protected on the amount of money. I understand that they listed all of the stuff and inventoried it and so on and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the Ruby trial?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal knowledge that Captain Fritz actually became aware of how you had found this billfold and the location of the keys?

Mr. SMART. Do I know what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Captain Fritz ever actually became aware of where you had actually found the keys and the billfold?

Mr. SMART. We carried the stuff to his office and Swain told him that we had the money and his billfold and some things taken out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. SMART. I heard him tell Captain Fritz that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is possible----

Mr. SMART. So he told these two fellows to take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if there were no actual written report of this ever made----

Mr. SMART. If there is, I imagine Montgomery--I believe it is Montgomery--I could be mistaken--but it is those two guys. I could find out their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, okay; all right; did you talk with Ruby at any time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the homicide office, saw Fritz, had Fritz talked with Ruby by then?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the homicide office, had you been told by anybody how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you hear any rumor about it?

Mr. SMART. Oh, I heard rumors; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--when was the first time that you heard that Ruby had told somebody how he got into the basement?

Mr. SMART. I am not sure where I heard it, but I heard it--some of the boys talking, said that they heard that he said that he walked by some officers down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which----

Mr. SMART. They were talking to Sam Pierce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and do you remember which of the men you heard----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Making this statement? How would they--would you have heard this on the 24th, on the day that Ruby shot Oswald, or was it sometime later?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember, Mr. Griffin, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that there were a number of rumors that began circulating right at the beginning, one that he came down the ramp, one that he pushed a TV camera in, another one was that he used a press pass, another one is that he got out of a police car?

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you heard, are you able to remember whether you have heard, any or all of these rumors on Sunday when you were there?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I can’t. I just heard them somewhere around there, heard somebody--they weren’t talking even to me, I don’t think. Just discussing it or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me take this off of the record.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s go on the record here. I am also going to mark for identification as Exhibit 5024 a letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November 27 with respect to what you heard down there in the basement.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark it, “Dallas, Tex., Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5024.” Now, I want you to look at Exhibit 5021 and Exhibit 5024, and will you tell me if you have read those over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I have read those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have already stated, I believe, as to each one of those that there is nothing that you would add or subtract from that or correct?

Mr. SMART. No, sir. If I knew something that would help you, I would tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign each of those in some place where it is conspicuous and date it?

Mr. SMART. Just the front sheet?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right, just the place where I have got it marked. Now, would you also look at Exhibit 5022? That is the diagram of the basement. You put some markings on that. Would you sign that? Would you also take this Exhibit 5023, which you prepared? It is a diagram of the intersection of Main and Pearl Expressway. Okay. I am much obliged, lieutenant.

Mr. SMART. Okay, Mr. Griffin. I wish I could help you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN ALLISON SMITH

The testimony of John Allison Smith was taken at 2 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Smith.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Smith, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly as to whether or not an individual by the name of Jack Ruby was seen by you on Commerce Street near the Dallas Police Department Building on November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Smith, I think that you are appearing here today as a result of a letter addressed to you from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel for the Commission, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it true that that letter was received by you more than 3 days ago from today?

Mr. SMITH. It was received last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. And today, of course, is Wednesday?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you mind taking the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name.

Mr. SMITH. John Allison Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Smith?

Mr. SMITH. This being 1964, I am 42 at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. SMITH. 22 Shadowbrook Lane in Hurst, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-s-t?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. SMITH. I am classified as a TV technician.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same occupation on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by WBAP-TV?

Mr. SMITH. Since November the 22d, 1945.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you on duty in your occupation in Dallas on November 23 and November 24, 1963.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with the remote truck owned and operated by WBAP?

Mr. SMITH. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was with you in the operations during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, there was quite a large crew. The way we are situated, there is a basic crew that stays in the truck. That is “in person,” that has to do with the picture, and one has to do with the sound, and that other person that is connected with the sound is Mr. Walker.

Mr. HUBERT. Ira Walker?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. In this particular case, ordinarily there is no cameraman near the structure because they are usually in the premises, but in this case we had a camera on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was manning that camera on November 24?

Mr. SMITH. That was Mr. Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now those two gentlemen came down here with you today and are outside in the anteroom, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty during those days?

Mr. SMITH. Well, call it “riding gain on the video.” What it amounts to is, to adjust the picture information, using an oscilloscope and that sort of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that require that you be inside of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Generally. You make short trips outside the truck. The one case that has to do with this particular thing, the man that is responsible for the video has to deal with the telephone company as to the class of picture that you are sending out and so on. It was during one of these particular trips away from the truck to contact the telephone company that I first saw this person that I believe to be the same man as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. Now here the times are going to have to be fairly accurate. As far as minutes and seconds, we don’t watch things that closely, but the first time I saw this person has to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 8:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there must be some reason why you fix that time?

Mr. SMITH. We went to work at 7, and it takes approximately an hour to turn everything on and get it all warmed up to proper operation. Then we go through this thing of what we call “lineup procedure,” on all the cameras, which we had done. So for that reason, I placed this time at approximately an hour after 7 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. But when all that procedure is done, did you leave the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Not yet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. SMITH. We had adjusted all these pictures, and in this particular instance, there were only two. We called the telephone company and they looked at our signal, and if they have any complaints or questions about the quality of the picture, they would tell you what it was. There was a complaint about the picture that I didn’t agree with, so we generally get together and one of us looks at the other picture and talk it over and see what the thing amounts to. So I had gone around to the telephone company. It is a mobile home little trailer set up where they put the microwave equipment. Now this was on the west side of the city hall building there.

Mr. HUBERT. What street was it on?

Mr. SMITH. Well, what street?

Mr. HUBERT. Your truck was on Commerce Street, wasn’t it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. We were facing east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a one-way street going east, and you were facing east? You were on the left-hand side of that street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. And this trailer was around on the west side of this building in the middle of the block.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was on the street which the back of your trucked faced?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. To go from your truck to that little vehicle you are talking about, you would have to turn left off of your truck, walk down to the corner and then turn right toward Main Street?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me suggest to you that that street is called Harwood Street, and if you will keep that in mind, we can refer to it as Harwood Street. I think it will make it simpler from now on. How far on Harwood Street from the corner of Commerce was that little vehicle of the telephone company parked?

Mr. SMITH. I would estimate it would be almost exactly halfway up the block.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing an entrance to the building around there?

Mr. SMITH. It is right in front of the main entrance, the west side.

Mr. HUBERT. The telephone company truck was right in front of the main entrance?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street as the main entrance or the opposite side?

Mr. SMITH. Same side.

Mr. HUBERT. So you walked up to that truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you figure that because of all you have told us, that considering the hour that it would have taken to warm up, considering that you came and started off at approximately 7 and then you got the complaints and you walked over, it must have been in the neighborhood of 8:15?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man that we are talking about, or will in a moment, on the way to the telephone vehicle, or on the way back?

Mr. SMITH. It was on the way back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at the telephone truck then?

Mr. SMITH. It was several minutes. We had to hook up a scope and he made some adjustments there. I think I would say I was at the truck at least 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. SMITH. These are guesses.

Mr. HUBERT. You walked back to your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see this individual?

Mr. SMITH. When I got around the corner and almost back to our truck, this person was standing there on the sidewalk almost parallel with our truck. That is in the vicinity of the door of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. The door of the city hall, or of the police department building?

Mr. SMITH. Building. I refer to it as the city hall. What is the name of that officially?

Mr. HUBERT. There are two. Actually one is the city hall or the police department opening which is on the Harwood Street side of the automobile exit. The building on the other side of the Commerce Street exit from where your truck was is the municipal building.

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t the municipal building. We didn’t go there until later.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was standing about at the staircase entrance to the Dallas Police Department Building on the sidewalk between the building and your truck, right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him?

Mr. SMITH. Probably 30 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where was he standing, or what was he doing, rather?

Mr. SMITH. He was standing there looking up at the windows where we had some cables running through. You see, we had camera gear up on this floor where all the interrogation was taking place and all, and this person was just standing there looking at the cables and inquisitive, maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a crowd of people around there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time of day.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you know?

Mr. SMITH. Now here this probably conflicts with anything you heard, but I am talking about a particular person, and one that I saw had on a light grey topcoat and a light grey hat, shabby appearance, not neat, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a tie on?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. I was looking at him from a quarter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a full view of him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not at this time. It is the type of person that we see often when we go out on an early morning remote. It is the person that is walking the street with no place to go. That is what he impressed me as being. And it kind of fit in that he was just standing looking up at these cables and doing nothing more than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him do anything else?

Mr. SMITH. Not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that same person later?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. Now here this is probably a more inaccurate guess than the other as to time, but it was later in the morning. At least an hour or maybe an hour and a half later than that. We were at a break and I was sitting in the back of the truck, and to the best of my knowledge, Walker was in there, but it was during the time when you are not rehearsing and you are not on a standby condition. You are relaxed and you are not familiar with this old truck, but I will try to picture to you that it is an enclosed thing. It is kept rather dark for the picture’s sake, and it gets warm in there. And sometime I will open these curtains or turn on the fan and get a little ventilation. This happens even in the wintertime. And I lowered the curtain on my side and there stood this same man there.

Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt in your mind that that was the same man you had seen earlier?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right. Now this is the same particular person that I am talking about. They are one and the same. Same coat and same hat and same everything. And when I opened the curtain, this man is no less than 2 feet from the truck here, and he is standing there very nonchalantly, you know, and he says, “Have they brought Oswald down yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a glass window between you and this man?

Mr. SMITH. It wasn’t pulled to. It was open.

Mr. HUBERT. It was open?

Mr. SMITH. It is a sliding, double-sliding window.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you had a full-face view of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you were not in excess of 3 feet from him?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your face and his face were not separated by more than 3 feet at that point?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say, “Have they brought down Oswald yet?”

Mr. SMITH. “Have they brought Oswald down?” Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone answer him?

Mr. SMITH. I did. I don’t know how to explain it. You see, my first reaction was one of a joke, you know. Here we were all sitting around here for days waiting for this news story to develop, and a man asks you have they brought Oswald down yet, and to me I am thinking if they had brought him down and taken him to the county building, why would we be here? And I started my answer like, “What do you think?” And then he repeated his question again, “Have they brought him down?” And he didn’t call his name the second time, like it was understood.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he really asked twice? The first time he used Oswald’s name and the second time he referred to him by the use of the pronoun “him,” and the second time you told him, “No”?

Mr. SMITH. I said, “No, sir; they haven’t brought him down, or we wouldn’t still be sitting here.” And he just turned and walked away.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him there after that day?

Mr. SMITH. Now I think I did, and I am not sure. But this is the same man. The third time was in a crowd, and I could tell you pretty well what time this was, because KRLD put a camera in front of our truck at approximately 10 a.m. That is another guess. But they had time to turn that camera on and get it warm before all the news broke, so it had to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or maybe before. But after that camera was set up, KRLD had a couple of engineers out there lining up the camera.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Commerce Street with the camera facing down into the Commerce Street ramp of the building, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. They had this thing facing--you see, our truck wasn’t up to the ramp. There was room for a car almost between our truck and the ramp. Now they had this camera in that space right directly in front of our truck there, and they had a man standing on the sidewalk lining up their camera.

And this TV camera, it always draws a crowd, and at this time there was quite a few people just standing around. But this man that I am talking about, I am almost certain, was standing on the other side of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; on the sidewalk, in a group of people, just standing there watching the proceedings.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the time at which the police moved all of the people from the police department side of Commerce Street over to the other side?

Mr. SMITH. No; I don’t. Someone asked me that before. I don’t remember that taking place. You see, I was never told anything about the move. I was inside the truck, so I didn’t have any connection with that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you saw this man, or think you did, possibly did, the third time, had you come out of your truck?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had been down in the basement. We were running some microphone cords, you see. I know this adds up to an awful long story how we move around so much, and it doesn’t make sense to you, I am sure, but sometime during the morning Chief of Police Curry had told us that we would not be allowed to go through the double doors that separate the underground parking area from the underground office area. It is a double door there adjacent to the elevator opening, and he had told us that we would not be allowed beyond that door for any reason, but that he would give us a good place to put a camera and a microphone if we wouldn’t interfere with his passageway from there on out to the parking lot.

So we had gotten permission to set this camera up right next to that door, and we were the first camera in line there, and we were going to run two microphones in there. That was the plan at that time, in case they should allow an interview. We had hoped that they might, which later didn’t work, but in the running of this microphone, this microphone went through the downstairs door into the office area. They didn’t go down the ramp or anywhere near the parking area, but in running the microphones and in helping the Walker crew check out the mikes and all coming back to the truck is when I had seen this man standing over there to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. It was to your left as you came out of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him then?

Mr. SMITH. It was even further than before. It was all the way; well, the length of our truck is 20 some odd feet, and it was a couple of car lengths more; so I was 40 or 50 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was a couple of car lengths beyond the entrance, the Commerce Street exit, rather?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I misunderstood you. Did you see him immediately as you came out of the Commerce Street ramp exit, or when you got back to the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Now I didn’t come up the ramp. I came up the steps.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When you came up the steps, you went to the back of the truck?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So the distance between you and him was the length of the truck plus the distance between the front of your truck to the ramp, plus the width of the ramp and some distance beyond that?

Mr. SMITH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Making a total of, you think, roughly 40 feet or so?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there he was not alone, but with other people, you thought?

Mr. SMITH. Standing in a crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that individual any more?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Now you see it is hard for me to say that I could identify that man if he were to walk in this room right now, because, as far as I am concerned, I have only seen that face live one time. That is when he came to the window. And seeing somebody in films and all, that is kind of hard to associate.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you know Jack Ruby at all?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have come, of course, to know the face and the man called Jack Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you see the face of Jack Ruby in person, live, face to face as it were?

Mr. SMITH. Not since; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you associated the face that you have come to know as Jack Ruby from photographs and pictures and so forth, with the man that we have been talking about for the last few minutes?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how that came about, and when?

Mr. SMITH. The closest that I ever made the association was when we were shown a mug shot, and when I saw that mug shot, it was a straight-on photograph, and it struck me as being the same face as the one in the window.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any spontaneous reaction in that regard?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was convinced to myself that that was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any observations to anyone to that effect?

Mr. SMITH. No, but Walker did to me.

Mr. HUBERT. At that moment?

Mr. SMITH. A couple of seconds later; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he looking at the mug shot, too?

Mr. SMITH. We were looking at the mug shot on a monitor in the truck. You see, they took the mug shot out of the file upstairs in the City of Dallas Police Department, brought the mug shots out into the corridor and told the TV people they could take stills of it for their own use, and then they would take the mug shot right back to the file, that no one could have it to copy or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, you simply had the people on the third floor put your camera unit on the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then it came through to your monitor?

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that moment associate the face that you saw on the mug shots in the monitor with the man that you had seen earlier and which you have described to us?

Mr. SMITH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion to you by Walker, or did you reach that opinion before he said anything?

Mr. SMITH. I had noticed a distinct similarity. Now there is a difference in that, when I saw him, he had on a hat, and that was the only reason that I would not say positively that that is the same man. But there is the only reservation that I have. But I had noticed on my own that there was a tremendous similarity right through here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When the witness said “through here,” he was placing one hand at the level of his forehead and the other hand under his chin.

Mr. SMITH. And a few minutes later, after this, Walker commented to me that the person on that mug shot looked to him like the same one that had been up to the truck a couple of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you prior to that that he had noticed this man come to the truck a couple of times?

Mr. SMITH. Not prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your observation of this man coming up to the truck a couple of times was independent of that of Walker, and it had not been communicated between you?

Mr. SMITH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate your association between the mug shot of Jack Ruby and the man you had seen, to Mr. Warren Richey?

Mr. SMITH. Not at this time. Several days later we discussed it, and we seemed to be of the same opinion at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen Ruby in person since?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir. Let me say this. The person that I am talking about is, I hate to say, dirty, an unkempt person that possibly could have slept with his clothes on, you see. He would be the opposite of what we see in these photographs of a well-dressed, natty person with stylish clothes. I am talking about the opposite type of person from that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let me ask you this. Aside from your association of the man on the street and the mug shot of Ruby, have you in your mind compared your recollection of the man on the street with other photographs that you have seen of Ruby?

Mr. SMITH. No. I have never seen a photograph of Ruby that gives me that same picture; you know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the answer is really that you have made the comparison, but that you cannot feel as sure that the man on the street was the Jack Ruby that you saw in subsequent pictures?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At least as much as you feel that the man on the street was the Jack Ruby you saw in the mug shot?

Mr. SMITH. Right. Now I am drawing a comparison between the man in the window and the mug shot. Those two struck me as being the same. The pictures that I saw in film are not as familiar to me, you know. That is hard to explain. I don’t guess it makes sense, does it?

Mr. HUBERT. Would you venture to say that the man on the street whose face came within 3 feet of yours and the man in the mug shot were, beyond any reasonable doubt, the same person?

Mr. SMITH. The only reason that I would have any doubt was this thing of the hat. Now I couldn’t see his hairline and I couldn’t see the complete face. With that thing in mind, I would not say that positively is the same man; I can’t say that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see the complete face when you were within 3 feet of him?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. He had the hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And the mug shot did not, I take it?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. With that reservation, you would have no doubt it is the same person?

Mr. SMITH. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Smith, I have in my hand a copy of a report of an interview of you dated December 4, 1963, made by FBI Agents Haley and Madland which I have marked for identification as follows: “Fort Worth, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5317, deposition of John A. Smith,” and I signed my name below it. I would like you to read this, and after, I will ask you some questions about it.

(Mr. Smith reads report.)

Mr. SMITH. This thing doesn’t refer to him asking the question twice, which I believe I mentioned before, but essentially that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were interviewed by Mr. Haley and Mr. Madland, were there other people present?

Mr. SMITH. Let’s see; Mr. Haley, I believe, was the one that came over by himself. Then another--you see, I have been contacted three or four times, and I am not the best on names. We were contacted by two people at one time, and I believe they were from the city police department. I am not sure. I can’t even remember when I met Mr. Davis. He was on one of those.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall an interview that was had by FBI agents in the studio at which Richey and Walker were present?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, addressing yourself to that interview, was it conducted individually or as a group?

Mr. SMITH. When I first got there, he was talking to one of the others.

Mr. HUBERT. He, or were there two people?

Mr. SMITH. Just one. There was one person conducting the interview, and he was talking to--I am not sure--he was, I believe, talking to Jimmy Turner, and I stayed there for several minutes. And this other interview was concluded. Then I was interviewed separately, alone. Then Walker, I believe, came in, and he talked to both of us for several minutes. Then we went out to the garage where the truck is parked and he looked at the physical layout of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you ever have an individual interview with Haley and Madland, the FBI men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I had an interview with one FBI man, individually.

Mr. HUBERT. On the same day as the general?

Mr. SMITH. No. This was prior to this day I am talking about, and I believe that first man was Mr. Haley. I believe he was the first one there, and I am not sure about the name. But the first FBI man that contacted me--us, talked to us individually. At least he talked to me individually.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission staff prior to this time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you want to add?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except to say that I hope that we make sense. When all this happened, we weren’t paying any attention to time, faces, or anything else. And I do hope that what we do kind of makes sense to you. I am afraid it doesn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. It does to me. Thank you very much, indeed.

Mr. SMITH. This whole thing has been kind of a horrible experience, hasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came over.

Mr. SMITH. If we can help in any way, just call us.

TESTIMONY OF JESSE M. STRONG

The testimony of Jesse M. Strong was taken at 12:35 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of J. M. Strong [spelling] S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. Strong, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Strong, the nature of our inquiry is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly in the field of the Western Union telegram that is involved in this matter. Now, Mr. Strong, I understand that you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made by a letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was received by you more than 3 days ago, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you stand so that you may take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STRONG. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name?

Mr. STRONG. Yes. Jesse M. Strong.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. STRONG. 62.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. STRONG. 612 Edgewood Terrace, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. STRONG. Relief night manager at Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with Western Union Co. altogether?

Mr. STRONG. Since January 1923.

Mr. HUBERT. Near 40 years?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over 40.

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; 41, to be exact.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the Western Union Co. in Fort Worth on November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What office were you then located at?

Mr. STRONG. The Fort Worth office located at Main and Third, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which, for purposes of identification, I am marking “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5121, Deposition of J. E. Strong----”

Mr. STRONG. J. M.

Mr. HUBERT. J. M. Strong [spelling] S-t-r-o-n-g.

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am placing my name on that document also, and so that the record may show that both of us are talking about the same document, I will ask you to put your name below it. I am also marking another document, “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5120, Deposition of J. M. Strong” placing my name on that document and I ask you to place your name on it so that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document. Now, I hand you the document that has been identified for the record as Exhibit 5121, and ask you to state what that document is?

Mr. STRONG. It is a copy of the money order as received in Fort Worth at 12:56 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. On what date?

Mr. STRONG. On November 24, 1963--1964.

Mr. HUBERT. 1964?

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry. Yes, certainly, payable to Karen Bennett sent by Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with that transaction?

Mr. STRONG. I actually paid the $25 to Karen Bennett when she came into the office, approximately at 3:20 p.m., on the afternoon of November 24.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way do you identify this document? Is there anything on it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I asked her for identification and she presented her California driver’s license No. 768114, and description, black hair, blue eyes, height 5 feet 2. Weight 105.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that those figures that you have just read off appear on the face of that document, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In whose handwriting are those figures written?

Mr. STRONG. Mine. I wrote it.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the significance of a time stamp, apparently, reading as follows: “1963, November 24th, p.m. 12:54.”

Mr. STRONG. After Karen Bennett had signed the receipt for the money and I handed her the $25, I put this under the time stamp and stamped the time the transaction was completed.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think there you have reference to the other stamped time as--reading as follows:

“1963, November 24th, p.m. 3:25”?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, I----

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. I asked you about the 12:54.

Mr. STRONG. I’m sorry, that is the time it was received in our traffic department located on the third floor of the building at Third and Main.

Mr. HUBERT. How is that time stamped?

Mr. STRONG. By a time stamp the same as we have in all the offices.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that one of those timeclocks that the Western Union----

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, is that synchronized to national time?

Mr. STRONG. I am not too certain of that, because they can be set rather easily with a key, and they have--it is, I believe, an independent unit. Now, it might be synchronized as a group, but I don’t believe with a master clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you sure of that?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I am not--I am not too positive of it, yet, it could be--very well be tied into the master circuit and synchronized the same as the clocks are.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any clocks that are used in the Fort Worth office that are not synchronized into the national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. You are speaking of time stamps? No, no; they are all on the same circuit.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be your opinion that all the time stamps on this Exhibit 5121 were stamped by machines that are synchronized to the national circuit?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; I believe that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have already testified that the other time stamp on here, to wit: “3:25 p.m., November 24th,” indicates the time that the money was actually delivered, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, as soon as I had paid her the money I turned that immediately and stamped that on the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the time of delivery of the money and time of stamping are almost identical?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, but a few seconds intervening.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have an independent recollection of this transaction, Mr. Strong?

Mr. STRONG. Nothing that was outstanding, sir, because as a party comes in inquiring for money and they have the money order, there is a routine form, almost has become routine, that we use to satisfy ourselves that the right party is receiving the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the person made inquiry about this money at any time prior to the time that the money was actually----

Mr. STRONG. That is apparently true although I did not talk with her myself, but in the lower right-hand corner you will find the letters, “WC”, which indicates will-call. That was placed there by one of our telephone operators who had answered her inquiry and gone to the file and searched this out and told her that it was there and that she had informed her that she would call at the office for the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this information from that telephone operator?

Mr. STRONG. No; but it was on--it was given directly to me and I just recorded it on the form.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when this document came into your possession you knew from the numerals, or letters, “WC”, that there would be a call?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this?

Mr. STRONG. That is the initial JMS, and California driver’s license--California--Calif--driver’s license, BR, abbreviations.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the identification on the driver’s license?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you on Exhibit 5121, stamped on an angle right below the word “Union,” in large letters what appears to be another stamp of time which is not quite clear to me. It seems to say, 1963, November 24th, and then something in parentheses, and 60 something. Can you tell us what that means?

Mr. STRONG. Yes; the 26 in parentheses is the digit time that the operator completed the transmission of the message in Dallas one day---the filing time on the application will show 12:26, that the time the operator completed sending it. This 1:04 p.m. is the time that the money order actually reached the main floor after the operator on the third floor released it. We stamp it again when it comes down again from the operating room--the money order department, and that was what the 1:04 p.m. means, actually received the money.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the parentheses?

Mr. STRONG. I say, the digit number when the operator in Dallas completed sending it. In other words, here the message was filed at 11:17 a.m., sent back to the traffic department and the operator put her stamp on it, and when it is completed then she puts the 2:06 in digits indicating that the transaction was completed now, which would have been 11:26 I assume.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that is when the telegram got back to Dallas?

Mr. STRONG. That is when it left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would not have left Dallas on November 26.

Mr. STRONG. No; this is the digited time.

In other words, either 11:26 a.m., or 12:26 p.m. indicating that the operator had completed the transaction at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I show you another document which has been identified as Exhibit 5120, and ask you what this document represents?

Mr. STRONG. On certain money orders when the party is coming into the office to receive payment we make up what we call a receipt form. That, you will notice, is a money order receipt form with my initials, J. M. S., and D. L. L., and No. 4, the wire number out of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Does this conform with the number on Exhibit No. 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, the same number.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. STRONG. And then, of course, the dates and the sender’s name, the office from which the money order came. The date, the amount and the payee’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, who typed that out?

Mr. STRONG. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. On Exhibit 5120?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, I typed all of this.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see a signature there which purports to be that of Karen Bennett. Who signed----

Mr. STRONG. Karen Bennett supposedly is the one who came in and presented the California driver’s license.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the figures on Exhibit No. 5120, is that right?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she sign that in your presence?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you have already testified that from the time stamp on Document 5121, she would have signed that at approximately 3:25 p.m., on November 24, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. STRONG. That’s correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is nothing on Exhibit 5120, that indicates the time of sending, is that right?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you able to state, however, that the time stamped on 5121, indicates that the transaction was completed at 3:25 p.m., on November 24, 1963?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, immediately after Karen Bennett signed this receipt I stamped----

Mr. HUBERT. “This receipt,” to wit: Exhibit 5121?

Mr. STRONG. Then I stamped the Exhibit 5121, to show the time that payment had been made.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you know about the matter?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if Karen Bennett was alone or was there someone with her?

Mr. STRONG. She was alone. There was no one with her that came into the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Had she been waiting around?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; no. She walked in and I immediately waited upon her. Asked her if I might help her, and she told me she was expecting a money order, and, of course, I went through the money order file and paid her upon her identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you prepared the money order receipt, which is identified as Exhibit 5120, prior to the time she came in?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, we do that as quickly as they come in, as we find the time to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have been speaking about Exhibit 5120, in a sense that might indicate we were dealing with the original document. I asked you if it is not true that the actual piece of paper that we have identified as 5120, is a photostatic copy of it?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, it is. The original would be green in color.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. There are some initials on 5120 following the words, “Issuing employee.” Whose initials are those?

Mr. STRONG. Those are my initials indicating that I paid the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Strong, have you had any interviews with any members of the President’s Commission other than myself in regard to this matter?

Mr. STRONG. No, I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was an interview between you and me prior to the commencement of this deposition earlier this morning?

Mr. STRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In this deposition, have we covered everything that was covered in the course of our interview?

Mr. STRONG. I think so. I don’t believe there is anything I can add there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any inconsistencies in our interview that have not been developed in the course of this deposition?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. This Karen Bennett came in in a normal manner and left in a normal manner and exhibited no emotion whatsoever?

Mr. STRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the shooting of Oswald when she came in?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; I did not. I have been on duty since 7 o’clock that morning with no means of communication whatsoever. In fact, I did not know it until after payment of this money order had been made. One of the messengers mentioned the fact that Oswald had been killed, and that a party by the name of Rubenstein had shot him, which couldn’t register with me at all, because I did not connect the names.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Karen Bennett indicate in any way that she knew that Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. STRONG. No, sir; there was no conversation between us at all other than the conversation in respect to the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. And the identification?

Mr. STRONG. And the identification. After the transaction she left the office and there was no occasion of that--there was no further conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF IRA N. WALKER, JR.

The testimony of Ira N. Walker, Jr., was taken at 1 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. Walker, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Walker.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Walker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly about the whereabouts of Jack Ruby near the Police Department Building in Dallas on November 24.

Now, Mr. Walker, I believe you appeared here today by virtue of a request made in writing to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission. For the record, would you state whether you received that letter?

Mr. WALKER. I did; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. WALKER. Must have been last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in excess of 3 days ago?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so would you mind taking the oath?

Mr. WALKER. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALKER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name, please, sir.

Mr. WALKER. Ira N. Walker, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, sir?

Mr. WALKER. Thirty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. WALKER. 6913 Hightower.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. WALKER. Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. WALKER. Broadcast technician.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?

Mr. WALKER. WBAP-TV.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. WALKER. Since 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty in Dallas in connection with the visit of the President of the United States on November 22?

Mr. WALKER. I was on duty after the assassination of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first go on duty?

Mr. WALKER. In Dallas, the afternoon of the shooting. We went to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, “we,” who do you mean?

Mr. WALKER. Our remote crew truck and crew of about four of five of us, the first day.

Mr. HUBERT. You say a remote truck? Is that one of those trucks like a Greyhound bus that you haul the equipment?

Mr. WALKER. It is a little smaller than that, but it is the same.

Mr. HUBERT. What does your crew generally consist of? Or what did it consist of during that period we are talking about?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the first day, that was a rush deal and there wasn’t but four of us available, I think. And the second day, there was probably about eight of us, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the first day, you mean the first day after the President’s assassination?

Mr. WALKER. Yes. Just after the assassination we took the truck with the men available and went.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on the 22d?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you talk about the first day, you mean the day of the assassination?

Mr. WALKER. The day of the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you “took” and “went,” did you go from Fort Worth?

Mr. WALKER. From Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. To Parkland Hospital?

Mr. WALKER. We had already been to the President’s breakfast here in Fort Worth, and I covered that for radio here in Fort Worth. There was a crew with the TV truck here in Fort Worth, and they had already gone home at the time the President was assassinated, and I was still on duty, and they were called back in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you name for us the people who were on the remote truck on the first day after the assassination of the President? That is to say, November 22.

Mr. WALKER. Well, let’s see, Johnny Smith and Warren Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. And yourself?

Mr. WALKER. And myself, and Dan Smith went that first day, I think. I don’t think he went any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Now each of you all had a definite function to perform, of course?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that we get it for the record and need not repeat it with the other witnesses, tell us the functions of each one of you on the truck.

Mr. WALKER. I was to handle audio, Johnny Smith was the video engineer, and the other two men were cameramen.

Mr. HUBERT. One of them drove the truck, I take it? Or did you have another man to drive?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; Johnny Smith was driving the larger truck, and I was in the little panel truck. And Supervisor Tom Bedford was driving the panel truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the first day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the second day. That is to say, Saturday the 23d. And by way of orientation, let me state that by that time, of course, the President was dead and Oswald had been charged both with the assassination of Officer Tippit and President Kennedy, and was in custody at the Dallas Police Department Building on Commerce, the building bounded by Commerce and Main on two sides, and Harwood on the front.

Now, on that second day, the 23d, did you have occasion to be on duty with the remote truck that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. All day long?

Mr. WALKER. Well, we were called out of bed at 1 o’clock Saturday morning. Let’s see, we burnt the engine up on the remote truck going to Parkland Hospital the day before, and it had to be towed over there by a wrecker, and I don’t know exactly what time we got to the Dallas City Hall. It was probably something like 3 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park the truck, the remote truck?

Mr. WALKER. On the south side. That would be on Commerce Street, I believe. Right in front of the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the front, if you remember, roughly?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see, there was, I believe, another remote truck between our truck and the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say the corner of Commerce and Harwood?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were closer to the Commerce Street entrance than that truck was?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; we were directly in front of the Commerce Street stairway.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street exit from the basement is just beyond the Commerce Street stairway in the direction of Pearl Street, the Pearl Expressway?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So I suppose it is fair to say that the front of your truck was not far from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. WALKER. Well, the front of our truck was--there was just room enough for a motorcycle to park between the front of our truck and the driveway going to the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you had cameras on the inside, I take it?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the outside, too?

Mr. WALKER. And one on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the truck stay there all that day?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it stayed there all that day and that night.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the next day, the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; it was there all day the 24th up until, let’s see, I won’t tell you--I want to tell you very much, but this is very hard. That was a lost week for me. We slept very little, and most of the time I couldn’t even tell you what day it was over there, so it is difficult to say.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. To your knowledge, the truck never moved from its position as you have described it on Commerce Street until after the assassination of Oswald?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty continuously?

Mr. WALKER. The first day on Saturday, let’s see, we came in at--they woke us up about a little after 1 in the morning, and I was there until, I know, after 10 that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday night?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; I was going to bring that schedule with me and I forgot. It was in last year’s book.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at what time did you go to work on Sunday morning?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t remember. It was early, but I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say it was daylight?

Mr. WALKER. It was right at daylight, I imagine. There was only one day that we came in late, and I believe it was later on in the week. We were over there early every morning except one, and we came in at 9 o’clock, that morning, but I believe it was later on on Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby or of his existence prior to, say, the assassination of the President?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see a man that you now know to be Jack Ruby, if you did see such a man?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him, and I would say it was sometime after 10:30 in the morning that Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, of the 24th?

Mr. WALKER. Let’s see; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you didn’t know him at the time you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record just how you came to see this person?

Mr. WALKER. I was sitting in the truck at the audio board. We were waiting for Oswald to be brought down. The press had been told he would not be transferred until after 10:30 in the morning. That is the only thing I can tie the time down to, because we were on a standby basis waiting for Oswald to be moved, and Ruby came to the window of the truck and asked, “Has he been brought down yet?” He was standing on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him to be Ruby at that time?

Mr. WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how he was dressed?

Mr. WALKER. No; I can’t. All I could see was his face. It is a very small window. We have curtains, and I think it was one corner unsnapped.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. He came to the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. How far apart were the two times?

Mr. WALKER. I do not know. It was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he could have come to the window earlier than 10:30?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I don’t believe at the time I saw him at the window, well, I am almost sure it was after 10:30, because I know I was sitting there. We were on a standby basis and waiting, and he did not mention Oswald’s name, that I can remember.

It was, he just said, “Has he been brought down yet?” And everybody knew who he was talking about, or I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Ruby since?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times, do you suppose?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. It was over--I was a witness during the trial. I saw him before I was a witness, and I saw them bring him into the courtroom one morning.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the times you saw him were in connection with your function as a TV man covering the trial?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I was asked by the district attorney’s office to go look at Jack Ruby through the door of the courtroom prior to being a witness, to make sure that he was the same man that I saw come to the truck. And then I saw him while I was a witness.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did look through the door at the district attorney’s request and saw Jack Ruby, what opinion did you reach?

Mr. WALKER. I knew it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. And you subsequently saw him in the court when you testified?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that the same man who was Jack Ruby in the courtroom was the man whom you described as coming up to the window?

Mr. WALKER. That was the same thing I told the Dallas district attorney, that the only reason I remember Jack Ruby is because within minutes after the shooting we had mug shots of Ruby on camera from the third floor of the city hall. And if it hadn’t been for those mug shots being in such a close time after he came to the window, I probably would never have remembered seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the mental process you went through in relating the face at the window to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, about four of us pointed at him at the same time in the truck. I mean, we all recognized him at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. As being the man?

Mr. WALKER. That had come to the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that that man who had peeked through the window had done so only a matter of minutes before, or would it have been an hour?

Mr. WALKER. I can’t say. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you sit here now, your best impression is that--better still, your opinion is that the man who did look through that window and asked you, “Have they brought him down yet?” was Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you have confirmed that a number of times, to wit, almost immediately after when you saw the mug shots on TV, and then at least on two other occasions when you looked in through the window in the courtroom, and again when you were face to face with him in the courtroom?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that your seeing him as you have described it through the window, could have been on the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. He may have been there, but I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. This event that you are talking about did not take place on the previous day?

Mr. WALKER. No. I have heard people say that he was on, that they had seen him on the sidewalk, but I did not, to my knowledge. There were so many people; a lot of people asked questions, and most of the time I say, “I don’t know,” hoping they will go on.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand, the thing that makes it certain in your mind that he was Jack Ruby is because of the association of the face that peered to you in the window and the mug shots that came through the camera right after?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The two link together in your mind?

Mr. WALKER. That is the only thing. I would not have remembered him if it had not been for the mug shots. There were so many people, there is no way I believe that I could have remembered him. And if he hadn’t come back to the window the second time, I might not have linked it with the mug shots.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time was there, do you think, between the two times?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know. I really don’t. I wish I could help but anything I’d say would be a wild guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Walker, I want to show you a report of an interview that was had of you by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley D. Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as Fort Worth, Tex., April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5315, deposition of Ira Walker, under which I have signed my name. I would like you to read it, sir, after which I am going to ask you if there are any errors or any corrections you want to make, anything that has been omitted, or modifications that you believe to be necessary.

Mr. WALKER. [Reading report.]

No. I wasn’t the one that said, “I saw him between 7:30 and 8 a.m.”

Mr. HUBERT. That FBI report which has been identified as 5315, contains the statement in the middle paragraph reading as follows, to wit:

“Walker said that on the morning of November 24, that the first time he recalled seeing Jack Ruby was shortly before the mobile unit was set up, which would have been between 7:30 and 8 a.m. Walker said that he first saw Ruby shortly after the armored truck was backed into the basement of the Police Department.” Now would you address your comments to that statement, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. I believe one of the other boys said he saw him between 7:30 and 8, but it was not me because I don’t remember seeing him. But as far as the association with the armored truck, now the armored truck was not backed into there until around 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that when you saw Ruby the first time----

Mr. WALKER. Was after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was after the armored truck was backed in?

Mr. WALKER. It was after I was on a standby basis and sitting in my seat in the truck just waiting for somebody to roll tape.

Mr. HUBERT. What does the standby basis mean in the TV industry?

Mr. WALKER. It means to stand by to go on the air any time on call at a moment’s notice, because we had been told he would be moved after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollection that the first time you saw him was after the armored truck was moved in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t believe the armored truck was backed in until after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. So as I understand it then, with respect to the language in Exhibit 5315, there are really two corrections that you wish to make. One is concerning the time 7:30 to 8, and the other is concerning the relation between your seeing Ruby and the truck backing into the ramp?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought, then, as I understand, is that it was considerably later than 7:30 or 8 o’clock, in fact, it was about 10:30?

Mr. WALKER. Or after.

Mr. HUBERT. Or after, but you think that it was before the armored truck backed in?

Mr. WALKER. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. It could be either?

Mr. WALKER. It could be either; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him twice, though?

Mr. WALKER. I did see him at the window twice.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible that the first time you saw him, the armored truck had not backed in and the second time it had?

Mr. WALKER. It is possible; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would your best guess be, considering--well, I don’t want you to guess. Would your best impression or opinion now be that the time that you first saw Ruby was less than an hour before the shooting of Oswald took place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that thereafter, the time that you saw him on the second time would have been less than an hour, too?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not have any recollection now, as I understand, as to the time interval between the two times you saw him?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have said that--perhaps we should repeat what he told you on each occasion or what he said or asked?

Mr. WALKER. As near as I can remember, he just asked, “Has he been brought down?” or “Have they brought him down yet?”

Mr. HUBERT. On both occasions?

Mr. WALKER. Yes; and I am not sure, I probably told him “I don’t know.” It says here that I said, “No.” But I have no way of knowing yes or no, really, which is true. We had cameras, and I could see what the cameramen were doing, but I still really have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you’d better describe for the record what you meant by mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. Well, as I understand it, from listening on the intercom, we were told we were going to get pictures of Jack Ruby and that we would have to get them right away because our people did not have the pictures and would not be allowed to have them, and I assumed that someone from the police department would be holding those pictures, because they--we were told to get the tapes to rolling, because we wouldn’t get a second shot at him. And it would just be, get them or miss them, and I presume that someone in the police department was holding those pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. In front of a camera inside the jail?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was that mug shot that you remembered talking about that immediately brought to your mind “this is the man I saw just before the shooting of Oswald, or sometime before the shooting”?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission before this date, sir?

Mr. WALKER. No; only there were some FBI men came to the station, and I believe they are the men you mentioned here.

Mr. HUBERT. I meant members of the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. I have omitted to explore one area. You were called as a witness in the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the general nature of your testimony then?

Mr. WALKER. To state the same thing that I have here, that Jack Ruby came to the window of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were called by the State?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. To the best of your recollection, has your testimony today been any different from that which you gave at the trial of Ruby?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Has there been anything omitted here that was brought out in the trial of Ruby when you were a witness?

Mr. WALKER. No; in fact, it has been covered much better. The State didn’t bring out the fact that we saw mug shots, and the defense kind of tore me up on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when the defense tore you up, I suppose what they were trying to do is say you simply couldn’t recall?

Mr. WALKER. They asked me how long I had known Ruby, which I did not know him, and they were trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give the explanation as to the mug shots?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is a fact that the mug shots, that your connection between the mug shots did in fact take place?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir; that is the only real tie, is the fact that we had the mug shots. I probably wouldn’t have remembered the man coming to the window if it hadn’t been for the mug shots. I told District Attorney Wade that before I went in as a witness, but he didn’t follow it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to wrap it up, you are saying under oath now that the man at the window and the man in the mug shots and the man in the courtroom identified as Jack Ruby were one and the same person?

Mr. WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have already testified that you recall the interview of you on December 4, by FBI Agents Earle Haley and Robley Madland. At the time you were interviewed, were you interviewed by those agents alone?

Mr. WALKER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How did the interview take place?

Mr. WALKER. The two agents, myself, Warren Richey, Johnny Smith, and there might have been some others, Jimmy Turner was there part of the time--of course, he introduced us to the FBI men, and I think he had already talked to him previously.

Mr. HUBERT. All of you were interviewed as a group rather than individually, is that right?

Mr. WALKER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you shown a copy of the notes relative to what your statements were?

Mr. WALKER. No; I have seen no notes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen any draft of the documents which have been identified as Exhibit 5315?

Mr. WALKER. Today is the first time I have ever seen that.

Mr. HUBERT. During the interview, did the FBI agents ask each of you to speak alone, or was it a composite sort of interview?

Mr. WALKER. It was composite. We spoke as we remembered the situation. I mean, everybody described the whole thing as it progressed along as best he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the FBI did by way of segregating the identification of each of you?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say?

Mr. WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN L. DANIELS

The testimony of John L. Daniels was taken at 10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John L. Daniels.

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Daniels, I have to read some things to you. Mr. Daniels, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the Provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry including the parking of the car that belonged to Mr. Ruby at the parking lot next to you, I think.

Now, Mr. Daniels, I understand that you received a letter from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission asking you to appear to have your testimony taken by this deposition. Did you receive that letter over 3 days ago from today?

Mr. DANIELS. It has been longer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. It has been longer than that? All right, now, will you stand and take the oath, please, and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please. Sit down, please.

Mr. DANIELS. My name is John L. Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. DANIELS. My age is 32.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Daniels?

Mr. DANIELS. 2314 South Boulevard.

Mr. HUBERT. South Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation? Where do you work?

Mr. DANIELS. Working out of the Adolphus Garage now.

Mr. HUBERT. Adolphus Garage? That is connected to the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. DANIELS. Across the street from it, but just the name of it. The one connected to the Adolphus Hotel is onto the building.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, is that located at 1326 Commerce Street?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on November 24, 1963, which was a Sunday, where were you working?

Mr. DANIELS. Working for Norton parking lot.

Mr. HUBERT. Working for Ralph Norton, Norton’s Auto Park?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, auto park right across from Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Main Street?

Mr. DANIELS. Main Street, 2335 Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there another parking lot next to yours?

Mr. DANIELS. The one just--used to be the same lot, but divided it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Theodore Jackson?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. DANIELS. He is the colored fellow working in the next block to me. On Sunday our lots work together.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on duty at the parking lot, Mr. Daniels, on November 24?

Mr. DANIELS. November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. That was the day that Oswald was shot in the jail.

Mr. DANIELS. It was somewhere around, I imagine it was after the shot was made when I went on, and went down in the city hall, I imagine it was about----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am talking about the time you went to work.

Mr. DANIELS. Time I went to work?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Somewhere around 12 o’clock, I believe it was. I never did pay much attention to the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you come from when you went to work?

Mr. DANIELS. I came from home.

Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t been hanging around the Main Street prior to that, had you?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I hadn’t been hanging around there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what time----

Mr. DANIELS. I lived about a street--I was staying at the Pacific Hotel, and had the radio on and heard about the shooting and got up and come on out of there then, about 2 blocks from there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words you were in your home at the Pacific Hotel on Pacific Avenue, Pacific Street and turned the radio on and heard the shooting?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you came down to the parking lot?

Mr. DANIELS. Ambulance came by blowing, and I got up and came on down to the parking lot then.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw the ambulance go by?

Mr. DANIELS. I heard it blowing.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mr. DANIELS. They had the sirens blowing was all.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the parking of his car on Mr. Norton’s lot?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; car was parked next lot to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I seen the car.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Mr. Ruby’s car?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, detectives come down and picked up the car. Me and this Jackson was there together and he put a ticket on the car so me and him went over to the car and he got a dime to call--to bring the key down there to unlock the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that?

Mr. DANIELS. One of the detectives brought that letter you all sent to me.

Mr. HUBERT. He got a key, you say?

Mr. DANIELS. He called back to the city hall for them to bring Jack Ruby’s key down. They searched the car good. The car was open. He had a dog laying in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. The windows were open?

Mr. DANIELS. One was cracked, and didn’t lock the car. The trunk was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. The trunk was locked but the doors of the car were not locked and there was a little crack in the window for air, I suppose, for the dog?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the detectives came they could open the car? They didn’t need a key for that, did they?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; they didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they get a key from anybody?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know if the key ever come. I think one of them had a key fit it or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Fit what?

Mr. DANIELS. They unlocked the trunk before the man got back with the key or something. I could tell, so they said, “We’ll take the car. Call for the dog wagon to come and get the dog.” Then they decided they’d take the car on down to the pound, the city pound.

Mr. HUBERT. And the dog was taken?

Mr. DANIELS. Take the dog with them.

Mr. HUBERT. They took the dog with them?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about how long after you got to work did the detectives come to the car?

Mr. DANIELS. Oh, in maybe an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. An hour?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you think they got there about 1 o’clock?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know. Somewhere--could have been a little later than that when they got there.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when they left with the car?

Mr. DANIELS. I don’t know. The boy didn’t punch the ticket out. He just picked it off, because they didn’t pay the ticket out. I don’t know what time, exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were the detectives there from the time they first came until they left?

Mr. DANIELS. They stayed there about 5 or 10 minutes, and then the key, one of them had a key fit it. Must have been his car keys or something, and they left with the car.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know where they found that car key that fit the car, do you?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I really don’t know, because I walked back on over there. They raised the trunk up and looked in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in the trunk?

Mr. DANIELS. When they started looking in the trunk they said, “Well, we’d better take the car on over to the pound.” And searched the car there.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything out of the car at that time?

Mr. DANIELS. Didn’t take anything out of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know this man named Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; sure didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know whether Mr. Ruby had ever parked his car there before?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the car?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; sure didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been working for the Adolphus Garage?

Mr. DANIELS. Been down there about a month now.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Daniels, do you know anything that might throw any light on the general inquiry?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; that’s all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff before this deposition?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; one or two fellows, say the FBI, and talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. They are members of the FBI, but I am talking about persons who identified themselves as members of the staff of the President’s Commission?

Mr. DANIELS. No, sir; I don’t----

Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed, for example, by me before this deposition?

Mr. DANIELS. That’s right, I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much. I think that is all.

Mr. DANIELS. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF THEODORE JACKSON

The testimony of Theodore Jackson was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, this is the deposition of Theodore Jackson.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Jackson. I state to you now the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Jackson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, in particular about parking of Mr. Jack Ruby’s car in that lot on that Sunday, as it were. Now, I understand that you have not received a letter of request which was sent to you in care of the All State Parking lot, at Main and Expressway. Then under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness has the right to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules of the Commission also provide that a witness who has not received that 3-day written notice may waive it if he sees fit to do so. Are you willing to waive it and have your testimony taken without the 3-day----

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Theodore Jackson.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. JACKSON. Thirty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Jackson? Your home?

Mr. JACKSON. 2649 Carpenter Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Parking cars.

Mr. HUBERT. Parking cars?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you work?

Mr. JACKSON. 2001 Pacific.

Mr. HUBERT. All State?

Mr. JACKSON. That is All State Parking, uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you sometimes work at other branches of All State Parking?

Mr. JACKSON. 2305 Main Street where the car was parked.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that on the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?

Mr. JACKSON. That is the onliest place I work, where the--Western Union is across the street and the city hall is a block up the street where he shot him.

Mr. HUBERT. It is just about the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway, and you gave the number as 2535?

Mr. JACKSON. 2035.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty working at the All State Parking lot on Main Street on Sunday, November 24, 1963, which was the Sunday after the President got shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I don’t know if it were Sunday. I was on duty when Mr. Ruby shot Oswald. I mean, I was on the lot the Sunday he shot him, but he was already parked there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember what date it was but you do remember that it was the Sunday that Oswald was shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Uh-huh, his car was parked on my lot.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose car was parked on your lot?

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him before that time?

Mr. JACKSON. No, I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Never seen him before?

Mr. JACKSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get on duty that day?

Mr. JACKSON. Around noon, always come down around noon.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say then when you came on duty Oswald had already been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. I think he had already been shot, because it was a lot of people around the city hall up there and John L. Daniels--John L. Daniels was already on duty. He was working the Norton block right next to it.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. JACKSON. Belonged to Ralph Norton, Mr. Ralph Norton.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that name?

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Ralph Norton.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Norton? N-o-r-t-o-n?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; R-a-l-p-h.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Daniels worked on the parking lot next to the one you were working on?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that parking lot belonged to this Ralph Norton?

Mr. JACKSON. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Daniels was already on duty when you came on duty?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, he was there when I got there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him?

Mr. JACKSON. No, I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say Mr. Ruby’s car was already parked on your lot?

Mr. JACKSON. It was parked on my lot.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I didn’t know whose car it was until these two detectives came down and was searching the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you describe what kind of an automobile it was?

Mr. JACKSON. It was an Oldsmobile, two-door sedan, white.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen it before?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How can a person park on your lot without there being any attendant there?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, they pull in and leave their car, and take the key and lock it up if you are not there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody on duty before you got there?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I unlocked the door and opened up.

Mr. HUBERT. Opened up? Well, the parking lot is not a closed parking lot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; it is open 7 days a week.

Mr. HUBERT. It is an open lot so that when you say you unlocked the door, what do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The office door.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any chains or anything to keep a person from driving right on in so that before anyone comes on duty any person can drive in and leave his car?

Mr. JACKSON. Drive in and leave it.

Mr. HUBERT. And if they depart before one of the attendants comes, well, then, they don’t pay anything?

Mr. JACKSON. They pay it when they get back. I put a ticket on the car.

Mr. HUBERT. No, you misunderstood me. If they leave before you get there, then, of course, you----

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There would be no payment, but if you find a car there when you get there----

Mr. JACKSON. If it is not monthly.

Mr. HUBERT. Someone that pays by the month and those cars you would recognize, or have some sort of a seal on them to indicate that they pay by the month?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, I know.

Mr. HUBERT. You know the cars?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby did not park by the month there?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came up and saw this car did you put a ticket on it?

Mr. JACKSON. I put a ticket on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other cars parked in the lot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; about, oh, I guess about six--about six more besides his, five or six more, I disremember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, and you put a ticket on the car, did you notice whether the car was open, or closed?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn’t. I just looked at the car and the key was gone. The keys wasn’t in the switch, and I just got a ticket, just stamped the ticket and put it on the windshield.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a dog in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I think so. It was--yes, it was a dog in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any window open so that the dog could get some air?

Mr. JACKSON. I never looked whether there was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that seem strange to you that there--somebody had a dog in the parked automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, it did, two detectives came down, and they started searching the car, but they were looking for a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they able to open the door of the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I don’t think the car was locked up, because they came down, well, they wasn’t--it couldn’t have been locked up, because they were looking for the key to the switch, because they wanted to take the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, how long after you got on duty and put the ticket on Mr. Ruby’s car, did the detectives arrive?

Mr. JACKSON. Oh, about an hour or so, I guess. I believe about an hour or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did they have any difficulty in opening the doors of the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I never even noticed them until they was out there to the car. I was listening to the radio about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say with reference to the detectives, what they were doing?

Mr. JACKSON. They were searching--they searched the car.

Mr. HUBERT. The doors were open by the time you saw it?

Mr. JACKSON. They was searching the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, answer my question, were the doors open or do you remember?

Mr. JACKSON. When I seen them they were searching they must have been open.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “searching,” do you mean they were searching the back?

Mr. JACKSON. Looking for a key. They said they were looking for a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Key to what? The ignition?

Mr. JACKSON. The ignition key, and I think the trunk key, and they opened up the trunk and there was a bunch of sacks in the trunk. I don’t know what was in them, and after they told me they was detectives, that was Jack Ruby’s car, and I just took the ticket off the car and they were going--said they was going to take the car to the pound, and said something or another about calling somebody.

Mr. HUBERT. Doing what?

Mr. JACKSON. Said something or another about calling somebody, some of his relatives or something to see what they wanted to do with his dog. They were going to take the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they do anything with this dog, that you know of?

Mr. JACKSON. I don’t know. They took the car to the pound.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the dog? Was it still in the car when they took it?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; the dog was still in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any calls that you knew of?

Mr. JACKSON. They went over and used the other telephone in John L. Daniels’ office.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. JACKSON. See, I don’t have one in mine.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say you got to work about 12 o’clock?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; around noon.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been hanging around before going on duty, or come directly----

Mr. JACKSON. No; I come directly from home and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t pass by the jail, or look around the jail?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it was 12 o’clock, and not 11 o’clock, that you went on duty, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. It was around noon somewhere. I don’t know--I don’t know just what time it was, because I usually come down around 1 o’clock, but sometimes I get down there a little earlier.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after half past 11 in the morning?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I’m pretty sure it was after.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first find out that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we had a boy that run the lot during the day through the week and had a radio down there, and I usually turned it on when I come in, and when I put it on that was what was on.

Mr. HUBERT. The news was that he had already been shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission staff?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never been interviewed by me before?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Jackson, I think that is all. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR.

The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Andrew Armstrong.

Mr. Armstrong, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of the Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedures adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you, Mr. Armstrong.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Armstrong, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.

Now, Mr. Armstrong, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present. Isn’t that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 2 days ago.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On a Saturday--I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be Saturday, April 11th.

Do you have any objection at the, present moment to having your deposition taken today?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and raise your right hand so that I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Andrew Armstrong, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 27.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 3821 Dixon Circle, apt. C.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 10 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One, a little girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been married before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the maiden name of your wife?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Childress.

Mr. HUBERT. And her first name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Eleanor Childress.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you born?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pittsburg, Tex., Cass County.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unofficially--14 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you left that place, where did you go?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. To Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in Dallas ever since?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you complete your education in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--I didn’t complete it--I went to the 11th grade.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean what education you do have was finished in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was finished in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 11th.

Mr. HUBERT. At what age did you quit school?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At 16, I think--16 or 17.

Mr. HUBERT. How have you been occupied since you left school?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, what work have you done?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A number of things--should I go through them?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just briefly.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was--right after I left school, I was caddymaster at River Hills golf course. I left there and went to--well, I had a job at Vick’s Cafeteria in the Republic Bank Building--no, no--I’m sorry, it was Wilson’s Cafeteria, and then Vick’s Restaurant; then Vinson Still.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Vinson Still a corporation or individual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was a corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cut stainless steel--I mean--filled orders of stainless steel and magnesium--cut magnesium. I started out as a porter.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, continue.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then, I did a prison stretch for marihuana for 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you convicted in State court?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. State court.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you convicted?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were sentenced to how many years in prison?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Five.

Mr. HUBERT. How many did you actually serve?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on a charge of possession? Possession and sale of marihuana?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of your release?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The date was March 18, 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on a parole situation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that was discharged.

Mr. HUBERT. That was what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharge.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the time reduced then from 5 years to approximately 3?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, in this State you do 3 years or do 5.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean for good time and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, for good time you can reduce some of that time.

Mr. HUBERT. The point is, that when you left the prison you were not on probation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was not on probation. When I came back I started to work at the Holiday Hills Apartments, belonging to the Hunt Oil Co., and Bowman Real Estate, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas here?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was a maintenance man out there.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Holiday Hills Apartments?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s owned by the Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the Bowman Real Estate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was the one that built it, I think he built it and sold it for half interest or something.

Mr. HUBERT. What Hunt is that in the Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It’s H. L. Hunt Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Lamar Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have seen him--I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same man as H. L. Hunt Oil Co.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the same man--he was in charge, and when I left the Holiday Hills----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, before you leave the Holiday Hills and Hunt Oil Co., you say that you have seen a Mr. Hunt, but have not talked to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir; I have never talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. And that one you saw was H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--it was Lamar, and a few of his brothers, a couple of his brothers, I think it was--it was on the 4th of July or a Labor Day, I don’t know which one it was, I don’t recall, and they had a party out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the relationship between Lamar Hunt and H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Father and son.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never met H. L. Hunt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have seen him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who employed you over there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A Mrs. Pierson was the manager. I dropped in one afternoon for a job and she gave me the opportunity to work there for a week to see if I did a good job, so she hired me.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were employed by this lady to work for the Holiday Hills Apartments, did they know you had been in the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you left the penitentiary did you apply and receive the job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see, it was sometime during the summer of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. About the middle of the summer, you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m pretty sure--I think it was about the middle of the summer.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in the meantime, between March when you left the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I mostly just picked up odd jobs trying to make a buck, just odd jobs, whatever I could find to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you kept out of trouble ever since?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes. I have an application in for full pardon, recommended by Mr. “Bill” Decker himself.

Mr. HUBERT. By Mr. who?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The sheriff.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, mostly through--I’ve seen him more times through going down to visit Jack, because you had to go through Mr. Decker.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Mr. Decker prior to the time that Oswald was killed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not too well--well, no, in a way I did and in a way I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, explain that, please.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back when I was a caddymaster at River Hills golf course someone broke in it out there and I was picked up on investigation, which someone else testified to later that they had did it.

Mr. HUBERT. At first they thought you had done it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--that’s when I first met Mr. Decker.

Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see him after you left the penitentiary and until the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I only saw him--let’s see--we will come back to about January 1962--I had got a job at Marilyn Belt Factory just across from the county jail, and I used to see Mr. Decker, you know, I used to pass him on the street there and I would always speak to him, which he always would speak back, which he would always speak back to everyone who speaks to him whether he knows them or not, and I guess I saw him 10 or 15 times.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever in his office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until after the slaying of Lee Oswald, the one time was for the investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, after you left the penitentiary your acquaintance with Sheriff Decker amounted to nothing more than seeing him on the streets and saying “hello?”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never conversed with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any reason to believe he knew your name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn’t know my name until after the slaying.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why he has agreed now to support your application for a pardon?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that Mr. Decker did some investigating on me and when I went in to ask him, he went through the procedure of having my record checked, since I have been out, and before he recommended me.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, in connection with the application for a pardon, is it necessary to get the approval of the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It is necessary to get the approval of some officer.

Mr. HUBERT. And you chose the sheriff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I chose the sheriff. I was either going to choose the sheriff or Mr. Gilmore, the head of the vice squad. He has been in the club lots of times.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Gilbert--I don’t know whether he’s in charge of the vice squad for the city or not, but he is around and he has been to the club, checking in like he does, like policemen do, and he got to--he would always speak to me when he come in and he was always very nice and I was always very nice to him and I’m pretty sure he had some checking done on me, too.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you chose Sheriff Decker?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I chose one of the two of them because I didn’t know anybody else to approach--any other officers.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think we had left off with our analysis of your employment since you left the penitentiary, that you had worked for the Holiday Hills Apartments--how long did you work for them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 8 or 9 months--it wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. And that employment began, in the summer of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, and it ended a little before Christmas--I think it was around the 1st of December.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would hardly have been 9 months.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe that’s right--I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. You think then, you actually began to work with them probably in May or June of 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, if you left just before Christmas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You know, come to think of it, I think it was, because it was around the spring--so it must have been about the last of April or the 1st of May.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you worked for about 7 months and left around Christmas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for your leaving?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharged.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know the cause.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have recently, 5 or 6 days ago--Mrs. Pierson who is not there any more, and I wanted to ask her.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Pierson being the lady who had originally employed you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the one who discharged you, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about 5 or 6 days ago?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wanted to contact her to find out why I was discharged. I have a reason--it was because of one of the maids out there, but I’m not for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you suspect that it was on the complaint of one of the maids?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, yes; something like that--something.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you did not reach Mrs. Pierson?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you really don’t know even now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m still trying to find out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask her at the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I asked her at the time and was refused to be told why.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Christmas, 1961--what was your next employment?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see--at the Marilyn Belt Factory in January.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the place that’s right opposite the sheriff’s office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right opposite the sheriff’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them? Commencing in January 1962.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I worked for them 2 months, then I got the job at the Carousel Club with Jack and I held both of the jobs for about a month and it got to where I had to let one go, so I let the Marilyn Belt Factory go.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you began to work at the Carousel Club in about February of 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get employment with the Carousel Club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s go back--it wasn’t in February--you see, I started to work at the Marilyn Belt Factory in February, and I worked about 2 months with the Marilyn Belt Factory--that’s February and March and April--3 months, because I started to work for Jack the 1st of May, about the second day in May.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you worked both places for about a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. For about a month.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would take you to June 1, 1962, and then you had to make a choice, so you decided to go with the Carousel Club and you left the other job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming back to the question--how did you come to be employed in May of 1962 at the Carousel Club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just walked in and he was sitting down talking to some man--I have never saw him before--yes, I have--he was a waiter over at the Baker Hotel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that there was an opening there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Jack Ruby before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any advertisements in the paper?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sign on the door indicating that help was needed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you help us in ascertaining why you just walked in to get the job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was on a Saturday morning and I decided I would go look for me a night job some place.

Mr. HUBERT. What you wanted was a night job to supplement your income?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What I wanted was a night job, so I decided the club would be the best thing, so I went to three or four clubs, and when I went to Field and Commerce, I was going to go to H. L. Green’s for a cup of coffee or something like that and I started back up Commerce and I saw the door open there and I just pulled over and went in.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had tried three or four other places before you went to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On this same Saturday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On this same date.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about the 2d of May, I think you said, in 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--about the 2d of May, I’m pretty sure.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in the first part of May, do you think?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. It was about the first part of May, you think, and it was a Saturday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I have a calendar for 1962 before me, and it shows the first Saturday in May was the 5th.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was the 5th?

Mr. HUBERT. I’m showing you that calendar for 1962; does that help you any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see--why I said the 2d was later on, we tried to figure--I was signing a couple of checks about 2 weeks later and we were trying to figure out what date I started so I could fill out a W-2 form and we got to counting the days and we counted back to the 2d, so this was on a Saturday--it was on a Saturday, so it must have been the 5th. You see, things always happen so fast when you was around Jack because he was just like this--flighty.

Mr. HUBERT. The day you walked in there, he was in the Carousel--he was in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he was sitting down there, just sitting in the club at a table.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was talking to a waiter from across--it was a waiter across the street which worked up there that night, that Saturday night, and he never worked there any more, but that only one night that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us how you introduced yourself and how he came to employ you, and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I asked him if he needed any help at night and he said as a matter of fact he did and he said, “I’ve been looking for a clean-cut young man like you,” and so he said a few things--he asked me had I ever been in any kind of trouble and naturally I told him, “No.” I always tell people “No,” unless it is absolutely necessary, so he said to come back that night, so I went back that night and worked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you fix your salary at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not exactly. We fixed the salary the next day, no, the Monday--the following Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was that salary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That salary was $40 or $45 a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it remain that way or did you get an increase?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it remained that way.

Mr. HUBERT. You never got any more than that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just plus tips.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your job around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at first it was just bartending and then it got to be--it was bartending, then it got to be straightening the place up a little bit because there was another man that came in, Howard Haynes.

Mr. HUBERT. Howard Haynes?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, but he always did sort of a half job, and so then it got to be where I spent most of the afternoon there just taking phone calls and reservations and things like that, and taking care of all of the buying and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by taking care of the buying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, taking care of the buying--whatever that had to be bought--whatever stock they needed--no food, just beer.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, as you stayed on longer, you assumed more responsibility?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And more duties?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and they got me to where I was doing the hiring of the waitresses and contacting different peoples about acts and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby delegated the authority to you to actually employ people, both as waitresses and for acts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not actually employ them for acts, but contact them--he already knowed who he wanted and I just contacted certain persons.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would do the legwork, shall we say, about getting these acts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certainly not all of them, just some of them--when he didn’t have time to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Jack, or did he ever find out you had been in the penitentiary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never told him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he knows to this day about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know whether he knows--you see, I never told anyone connected with him until the trial, and then I told Mr. Phil Burleson.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify in the trial?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been subpenaed, I think.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it get to the point where you handled the money of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was--I always had $225 in my possession. That was for a bank every night, you know, to start things off and at the end of the night when I checked up, I would give him the receipts for the night and I would take what I had put in back to the safe and so, with the buying on Thursdays, when I took care of all of the purchases, I would give him the receipts and the total of the receipts--he would return the money to me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you always kept for making change for beginning the night’s operation, the sum of $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the next day after the night’s operation, you would turn over to him----

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always give it to him that night.

Mr. HUBERT. The same night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; the same night.

Mr. HUBERT. You would give him everything but the $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about paying for the goods that you bought?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that was--happened the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a cash basis?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; most everything was cash.

Mr. HUBERT. You would pay it out of the $225.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would pay it out of the $225, and he would give me the money back that I had spent.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that, you began with $225 each night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And usually he would put the money in the safe, that is to say, the amount of $225?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I would put the $225--I kept that money.

Mr. HUBERT. You kept the $225?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I put it in the safe.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the $225 only?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the $225 only.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you have a safe, when did you get one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he always has had a little old safe in the office. This was a little cabinetlike thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that one that had a slot on the side of it, so you could slip the money in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not that one. He had just recently bought that one--I would say it was in October last year.

Mr. HUBERT. Previous to the safe which was bought in October, there was another safe?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And he kept that in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He kept that in the office--it was a cabinet you opened with a key. It had little cabinet drawers in it and some little small ones.

Mr. HUBERT. It didn’t have a combination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no combination.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a filing cabinet like--it had two file cabinet drawers, about the size of those on the left-hand side there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the usual legal size four drawer steel cabinet.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But only two of those on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side at the top it was three or two little drawers, about the size of one of those stacks and one about that deep, where you could open it with a key.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it really had two keys?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, just the one--the same key would fit the one on the inside.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack keep the money that you gave him as to the profit over the $225 in that place, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he never kept anything.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he handle that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--he usually would go to the bank once or twice a week, or, he mostly kept--usually he kept the payroll on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a checking account?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had an account at the Texas Bank--no, at the Merchants State Bank on Ross Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he would deposit this cash in that account?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was always a little money in that account, but I don’t know whether he deposited it or not--all of it in that account or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he pay his bills, such as for the stripteases and the band?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash or check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.

Mr. HUBERT. And he paid all the supplies and purchases in cash, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.

Hr. Hubert. Do you know if he paid anything by check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What?

Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The rent was paid by cash with a cashier’s check.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever purchase a cashier’s check?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He would give you the money and you went to the bank and got the cashier’s check for it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cashier’s check.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you said a little while ago that he would take the money and go to the bank, what did you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always go two or three time--I’m sure--a week, that he was at the bank. I don’t know whether he deposited money or not, but he did have an account and there was an account there in the name of the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. But do you know of your own knowledge whether he used it as a checking account normally is used?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was used as a checking account, but I never--I have seen checks that he had written, that was, you know, after they went through and then he got them back--I had seen those.

Mr. HUBERT. Canceled checks--you mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; checks that went through the bank already and went through his deposit.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean by canceled checks--in other words, after the check goes through, it is returned to the maker.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Returned--yes--right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lot of those?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw quite a few small payments on different things, but I don’t know whether he had a whole lot of them or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, Mr. Armstrong, is whether or not Ruby kept the income from the Carousel on his person or did he deposit it in the bank?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that the biggest part of his money, he kept it in his purse on his person.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any idea how much he would have on his person in that way as an average?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it would be hard to say, because I have seen times when he would come in and he would have quite a bit of money in his pocket, but it would all be, you know, rubber bands--wrapped around with rubber bands, and he never would take it a’loose or anything like that. A few times he would get it all mixed up in his pocket and he would straighten out the tens and the ones--separate the ones from the fives, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the payroll?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He made the payroll.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you ever do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. After the slaying.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I mean before that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist him in making the payroll?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t work on Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s when he paid everybody?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s when he paid everybody.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do know he paid by cash?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He paid by cash.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him take any money to his automobile?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he do with it when he put it in his automobile?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What would he do with it? He would put it in his trunk--that he had in his pocket he would keep in his pocket--and that he had in his little moneybag he would put it in his trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. He had a moneybag in the trunk?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had a little sack--the same one he carried his pistol in, in a little Merchants State Bank, a little moneybag.

Mr. HUBERT. And the pistol was in that bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually it would be in one of those little money bank bags.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the pistol on his body?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it would always be in a little bag.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no occasion at all when you ever saw him have that pistol in his pocket or stuck in his waist belt?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he kept the pistol for?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I always assumed he kept it for--because he carried the cash on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the pistol wouldn’t do him much good in the trunk of the car if he had the cash on his body, would it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not much.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other reason then to suggest as to why he did?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always bring it in the club at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Pistol?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was brought in just in case he was robbed or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s see--we have a little difference there--I had understood you to say that the pistol was always kept in the bag which was in the trunk of the car.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I said he would always bring it in when he would come to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, but when he would bring it in, he would not put it on or keep it on his person?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he bring it in in the bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would bring it in in the bag and put it in the office back there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there would be the money and the pistol and the bag that were all in the office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. And then at night he would take the money and the pistol, which were in the bag, and bring it out to the car?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And bring it out to the car, but most of the time the money that he had in his bag would be left in the car, unless he was up early in the day and was handling cash--he just left it in the office some place because he wasn’t going back out, but if he left, and went home to get dressed or something like that, and come back about 9:30 or 10 o’clock, he would lock the money, if he had it in the back in the trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that almost every night he would bring the pistol from the car to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And then when he left at night, he would carry the pistol back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was always in the bag?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Always in the bag, that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep the pistol in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him use it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean by shooting anybody, but by hitting somebody with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him use it.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what sort of man he was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Worried and disturbed always.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that manifest itself so that you could tell that he was worried and disturbed always?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Now, I’ll tell you this--there was always--if he was sitting down inside the club in the daytime at one of the tables and some people came in, he would always want to hold a conversation with them, he would always want to talk about something, and I have seen numbers of times when someone had said something about a certain thing, he would get angry about it without even knowing it--he would just get angry, just like that, but that would pass over in a matter of seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. When he got angry, how did he act?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would always let people know if they said anything that he didn’t like.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he act?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like--ungentlemanlike in a nice way--let me see if I can explain it any better?

Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was like--I’ll give you an example, which is the best way I can explain it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have seen at times when he would walk up to someone that had the feet out in the aisle and the girls couldn’t get by or some man doing something that he didn’t have any business, like hitting the girls when they passed by, or something like that, and they would tell Jack--if he was in a certain mood or something was bothering him, he wouldn’t go over and say--ask his customers who were spending money in his club, in a nice way not to do that, he would just hit him on the shoulder like this and say, “Watch it, Buddy, I don’t allow that in my place”--you know--real mean like--which is something that I never approved of.

Mr. HUBERT. He did that quite often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often, and that’s the way it would happen with any stranger.

Now, if he knew someone, he would always hold off or get someone else to do it. If he knew somebody and they were doing something he didn’t like, he would always get me or one of the girls to do it.

Mr. HUBERT. We started off this sequence of questions by your statement that he was always worried and disturbed, I think was the phrase, and you have given me that example. Weren’t there some times when he was not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was very few times when he was not and I always had the feeling that if he had that smile and talking and laughing, if it lasts all night, I always had the feeling that he would still have that worried and disturbed look and expression, later on after the club closed, somewhere after--I don’t know--after he got in bed or the next morning or something like that. It never lasted long.

Mr. HUBERT. You got along all right with him, didn’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We got along--we was always arguing, differences of opinion and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he nasty with you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not--I wouldn’t say he was nasty. I would say if I didn’t know him--I would say he was nasty. I would say that I would go so far as to say that he was even cruel.

Mr. HUBERT. To you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. To me and to a lot of the employees.

Mr. HUBERT. Give us some examples of the cruelty you are speaking of.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--we had a speaker in the corner, a high fidelity speaker over in the right-hand corner.

Mr. HUBERT. A loudspeaker?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, in the right-hand corner and it had to be turned on individually. It had to turned on or it wouldn’t come over the system and it was my job to see that it was turned on every night, and there was times I was too busy and had too many things to do and forgot about it, but not that often, and if he came in--the first thing he checked was the sound. The MC was on stage and if he couldn’t hear that box over there, he would come straight to me and it was like I had took half of the club away or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he say or do?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would just get all riled up about that--he would just get all riled up about that one little incident.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “all riled up,” that’s your own words of description of what he was doing, but we don’t get just what his physical acts were unless you tell us. What is “riled up”? Raising his voice, cursing?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Raising his voice.

Mr. HUBERT. Throwing his voice--throwing his arms about, hitting people, doing what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not hitting people--he wouldn’t ever hit anyone, but it always the impression that he might. There was always the feeling that he might.

Mr. HUBERT. Did his facial expressions change?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--no more than--the only curse word that he would use more when he did use it was damn it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on occasions like he got all riled up, as you have told us, would it consist of calling you a fool or threatening to fire you or raising his voice, cursing you, what was it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Threatening to fire me would be the thing, because he fired me 50 times or 100 times.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you didn’t stay fired.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He threatened my job every day.

Mr. HUBERT. He threatened your job every day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Almost every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what would happen?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--if I left he would call me back. If I left there fired, all I would have to do is come down and open the club up the next day and go on back to work.

Mr. HUBERT. He wouldn’t tell you you were fired, stay away; you wouldn’t even talk about the subject any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I can understand that that would happen after you had gone through that firing and rehiring once or twice, but first of all when you got fired, it must have seemed odd to you to go back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first time that it actually really happened was one night he fired me on Saturday night. It was a Saturday night and I usually had a ride on Saturday night because the last bus run at 1 o’clock, and if I didn’t catch that ride at 1:30, well, I would have to get a cab, which I can’t afford to get a cab. It is $1.65. He said something about staying a little late-something--I don’t know--it was a meeting, I think. He was always calling meetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Meetings of whom?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of waitresses.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I said, “Well, I’ve got to catch my ride because I can’t spend cab fare, and you are not going to give me cab fare,” just like that, and I walked on out the door and he said, “Just don’t come back no more.” I said, “Okay,” and before I got downstairs, he had sent one of the girls downstairs to tell me that my week wasn’t up. It was on Saturday night--I worked during the day on Sunday to clean floors, and I worked during that day on Sunday 2½ hours cleaning the club up, and I said, “Well, okay, tell him okay, I’ll clean the club up tomorrow.” Just like that, and went on, because--I don’t know--you see, I understood Jack, and I knew what his reasons for sending her on down was--actually not to tell me to clean the floor up but to tell me I wasn’t really fired.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had gotten fired?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was the first time.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you came back the next day and cleaned the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he called about 11 o’clock----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Sunday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday morning and asked me, “Has anybody called,” and a few other things--he kept one of the dogs down there--he asked me had I fed the dog. He always asked me had I fed the dog, which he would know I fed the dogs. You know, and I would always reply, “You know I will always feed the dogs, why do you keep asking me have I fed the dogs?”

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, on this particular Sunday morning, what happened about your getting rehired?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just said, “I’ll see you Monday.”

Mr. HUBERT. And from then on out I take it you figured when he fired you like that the only thing you would have to do is come back, and that is how it worked out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, always, and he would come to the bar, I would say three times a night, and say, “If you can’t do like I want you to, get out. If you can’t do the things like I want you to, get out.” Well, there was an opinion there, because I know I was at the club more than he was and I had my eyes on more things than he did and if I did a thing I know was right, because I have already experienced it before, which he hadn’t----

Mr. HUBERT. What are you speaking of there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m speaking of----

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the things you say you had observed which he had not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, about certain things--you see, we had a system going that one thing that happened was the setups were served in a glass. If you wanted cold water or whatever you wanted--were served in a glass with the ice, with about this much room for liquor [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. By “this much room” you are talking about 2 inches?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; about an inch and a quarter.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And some customers comes in there quite often and if one of the waitresses says, “Andrew, this is for so and so--Mr. so and so, and he wants his drink--he wants his setup filled so and so, in other words, about a quarter of an inch or an inch from the top, I would do it that way, because I am trying to satisfy the customer and if Jack happened to walk to the bar and see it that way, he would get all riled up because that’s Coca Cola he could be saving, and I never would go through the procedure of explaining it to him--why I filled it up that way.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you had more of an opportunity to observe the likes and dislikes of the customers than he did?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Than he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him get angry and actually use physical violence respecting any patron or anybody at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have seen him grab a couple of men in the club and throw them out when they was due to leave--when he asked them to.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you say “throw them out,” would you explain what physical activity was involved?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than grabbing a guy and locking him behind his arm, you know, catching him through the arms this way [indicating], from behind.

Mr. HUBERT. And hustling him out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And hustling him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him strike anybody?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw him strike anybody. Of course, it was said to be a couple of times he did strike someone.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an occasion when a taxicab driver came in there looking for someone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wasn’t working there then.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about that occasion?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I read about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten to throw any of the girls or anybody down the stairs of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A couple of times, I believe, I have heard him threaten to throw even a girl down the stairs.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you distinctly remember the incident about the girl, don’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the one I remember was Diane.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Jack always said that Diane bugged him and I said we couldn’t afford to lose her because she was a good waitress--she made the club money and I would say he had told Diane that she had 2 weeks’ notice every other night for a whole year--they just didn’t get along.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, get to the point about threatening to throw her downstairs.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had threatened to throw her down the stairs for some reason or other--I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he start to do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He never put his hands on her--he didn’t touch her.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put anybody out by the stair route?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--just the customers.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when he pushed the customers out, as you explained a little while ago, he did that by grabbing their arms from the back and hustling them out, you mean he hustled them downstairs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just to the door, the stairs door.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a door at the top of the stairs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a door at the top of the stairs, and he would automatically give somebody the sign to call the police.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sleep in the club, ever?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when I first started to work there when I was working the two jobs, I slept there so I could get up--I could sleep longer and be at Marilyn belt factory.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that after you left the factory, that you didn’t sleep there any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 3 or 4 weeks--about 3 weeks I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit with respect to arriving at the club and going home, as far as you could observe?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have a special time for calling and running in and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t have any special time.

Mr. HUBERT. He did call about feeding the dogs every day, didn’t he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He called.

Mr. HUBERT. That was pretty regular?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would always call his house when I got to the club about--anywhere from 12 to 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You would call his house to check in with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And then he would probably call me three or four times that day to see if any calls had come in or if he said, “I’ll be down to the club at a certain time and you can look for me; I’ll be there about 2 o’clock or about 3:30.”

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that this much was routine, when you got to the club around midday you would call him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was a routine.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was also a routine that he would call you daily, three or four times a day, is it not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Whether he came in or not--there was no routine about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--there was no routine about that. The most routine he had was about coming in the club at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very seldom there at showtime--that’s 9 o’clock--but he would always be in by 10 o’clock. In other words, he would always come in between 9 and 10.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did he stay?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would close up.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Around 1 o’clock, I would say. He would usually spend more time at the club after the show than anybody else. In other words, if I was closing up I would be right out; if he was closing up, he would walk around and he would look for this and he would check that and just a waste of time--if he had anyone waiting on him they would probably be gone to sleep before he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to wait until all of this was finished before you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always leave before the last show. In other words, I caught a 1 o’clock bus; I caught the 1 o’clock bus.

Mr. HUBERT. So you weren’t there most of the time when the club closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This settlement you made with him every night was really before the club closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The settlement was for the bar; on week nights, you didn’t have any bar which was after 12:15 unless it was near-beer or anything like that, and I usually checked the bar--checked my receipts and count my money--started about a quarter to 1 and if there were any sales after I left he would take them himself.

Mr. HUBERT. And that settlement that you and he went through was in his office, I take it? Or right at the bar?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, I would wrap all the money up and put it in a bag and wrap a rubberband around it. The change is all that was left, with a slip in the register of how much change it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the register record the sales?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The register recorded the sales.

Mr. HUBERT. What was done with the slip of recordation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was kept in the files.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever check to see whether the amount of sales checked out with the amount of money that you turned over to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day; if it was a nickel short he would call me over the phone or he would tell me about it when I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this checkout would not be done when you turned over the money to him at night, but, rather, the next day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, I checked it myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Against the cash register?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Against the cash register.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was supposed to balance out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I gave him the receipts, and anytime I walked up and gave him a receipt, if I was at least a dollar short or anything like that, I would say, “It’s a dollar short,” and just go ahead on. I would just hand him the receipts and he would usually stick them in his coat pocket and that’s the way it always would happen.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Sundays; did you come over then or did you call him the same way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would call him on Sundays or he would call me. He would either tell me on Saturday night to wake him up a certain time on Sunday morning if he was going to get up early; if not, he would call me. He knew I would always leave anywhere from between 11 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lived during the time you worked for him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he lived once on Marsalis, I think it was, right around the zoo, and I think he lived on Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two places you know of?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Those are the only two places I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been to either apartment?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to both of them--once each.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he living with anybody at either one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The only one that I ever knowed that lived with him was George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see George Senator working there, did you; you didn’t see George Senator living with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What you know about George Senator living there comes from what people told you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. From what people told me, and I called and he answered the phones and things like that, and Jack mentioned the fact that George kept all the food around and got him to eating again. You see, he usually was on a diet and certain foods he didn’t eat because he was on a diet, but if they were around him in his refrigerator he would eat them.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack a pretty strong man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He went to the gym quite often and exercised; is that what you mean--physical?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I know he went--I called him at the gym a number of times. If he would tell me he was on his way to the gym, he would be there, and that was three times a week, I’m sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any opportunity to observe whether he was a powerful man or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what you are telling us is he took exercise and went to a physical exercise club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He took exercise?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the dogs that he kept there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there is nothing much about them--just some dachshunds.

Mr. HUBERT. How many did he have?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at one time--first he had a little dog named Sheba, which was half Chihuahua or something, I don’t know what it were, and she got lost, and they were named Clipper and Sheba.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he had Sheba right up to the last, didn’t he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had Sheba right up to the last.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, “She got lost”?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--I mean Sweetie--the little dog that got lost was named Sweetie.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said Sheba got lost.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sheba and Clipper were the only ones he had then, and then Sheba had some puppies and they grew back up to about 9 and he started giving those away and he kept one of those.

Mr. HUBERT. He kept all of those at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; they weren’t all at the club at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. What part of the club did he keep the dogs in, no matter how many he had?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the room away at the back--he kept them back there.

Mr. HUBERT. And your job was to feed them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I fed them every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was very strict about that, I take it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very strict about it. I would feed the, you know, the little dogs and play with them sometimes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any opportunity to observe Jack’s attitude toward women?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than any other man, especially a single man.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was not married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he was always on the make.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go out any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said he was “on the make.”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All the time.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what kind of women?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Intelligent, beautiful.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you mean the people who came to the club, or the waitresses?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, some waitresses, some dancers, and some women that he had invited to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he date any of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He dated--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, from him--he told me a few girls he dated, and there were some girls that told me that they dated him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the girls tell you anything about their sexual relationship with him, if any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you about any sexual relationship with any of them? With women.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No. Not in that sense; no.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his attitude toward men from a sexual point of view?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t have any attitude toward men.

Mr. HUBERT. You know what I am talking about--did he have any tendencies that you could observe of homosexuality?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know what homosexuality is, don’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen or met perhaps people who are alleged to be homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, that you are able to recognize some of the characteristics of people who are homosexuals?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any of the such characteristics?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I could observe.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason whatsoever to believe that he was a homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No reason at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe whatsoever that he had any kind of sexual perversion? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that he had sexual relationships either with women or men in other than the normal way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about any possibility of a strange sexual attitude that he might have had toward these dogs you are talking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than he loved them. I know that he would come in the club and he would lay down and take a nap and the dogs, too--Sheba would probably be lying very close to him, or one of the other little dogs, but I had a little dog that I did the same way myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at is his attitude in relationship to those dogs was that he loved the dogs in the way that any normal man would love dogs, and no more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the financial condition of the club, as far as you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not good.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, before you expand into that, do you know when it opened, when the Carousel opened?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know when the Carousel opened.

Mr. HUBERT. It was open when you went there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was open when I went there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long it had been open, had you heard?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first was in 1961 or I think of 1960--the last of 1960, because I think there was a prior club during 1960 there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the Carousel had been in existence as such and under that name for about 18 months before you went with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, why do you think the financial condition of the club was not good?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was--compared to the other two clubs it was not good, because the other two clubs--the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club--they did a lot more business than the Carousel did.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said they did more business, you mean they had more people in there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would mean, I suppose, something--that there were more customers than the other place, but was the Carousel making money or losing money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say it was making enough to pay the bills and paying overhead.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Jack about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he would always--if we had a month of good business, he would say, “Business is picking up,” you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a calculation yourself--I don’t mean necessarily by putting it down in writing, but by thinking about what you knew had come in and what you knew had gone out, to figure out whether it was making or losing money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was making a little, but how much I don’t know. It lost after the assassination, because I handled all that--all the receipts then.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you suppose were the average receipts that you know of, at least, for a week from the time you were there until Ruby went to jail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Per week--for a week-- oh, I would say about an average of $900--or a $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that include Sunday nights’ receipts?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That would include Sunday night’s.

Mr. HUBERT. How would you know about Sunday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday was always a bad night--I would always know what was the receipts on Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t in there.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I would always know--I would be the one to file the receipts.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know that he is a very nice gentleman, a good businessman and didn’t want to be bothered with the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Financial interest?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; financial interest.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir, I’m pretty sure he had financial interest, but I don’t know how much it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said a minute ago he had no interest, you meant interest in running it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Interest in running the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a part of the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he owned a part of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know how much it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sharing of profits with him that you observed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never observed any.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact, didn’t he come there, several times a week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually, he came in on Saturday night, if he came in. I never saw him there over one or two times.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Other than Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him go back to the back room and discuss matters--or just go back with Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw him in the office talking and watching television.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what makes you believe he had a financial interest?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because he told me--he told me he had a financial interest in it and Jack said he had a financial interest.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, both Paul and Ruby told you that Paul had a financial interest in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that he didn’t have no financial interest in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Paul told you that he did, but Jack told you that he did not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that Ralph Paul had a financial interest in the club, but he, himself, did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that Jack himself did not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you--did he tell you whether Paul was the only one who had a financial interest, or were there other people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said that it was this Mr. Paul and one of his brothers.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say which one?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sam Ruby, I think, he said.

Mr. HUBERT. The one that lives in Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once--once or twice he came down to help out--once he came down to help out and he came in two other times that I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, Jack denied that he had any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship, then, to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, as manager only.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he get a salary, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he got a salary, but I don’t know how much.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than the two or three times that Sam Ruby came in, did you ever see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Did I ever see Sam Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Ralph, other than the times you saw him at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of the S&R Corp.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of the relationship between that corporation and the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was known as the S&R Corp. doing business as the Carousel, is the way the thing was supposed to be, and as far as the corporation was concerned, I understand that Ralph Paul was president, Sam Ruby was secretary-vice president and there was somebody else who was--well, I believe Sam Ruby was secretary-treasurer, and Jack was the manager, or something like that at one time, and then at another time, Jack wasn’t even the manager.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was after all this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We were trying to find the corporation papers and he took his name off as being manager of the corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did George Senator work at the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometimes he did.

Mr. HUBERT. How often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say he had been there 15 or 20 times working as a doorman.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you mean 15 or 20 times during the 18 months you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. During the 18 months that I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be about once a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About once--but I think it mostly came in a short period of time when he had worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 15 or 18 or 20 times he did come was not on an average of once a month, but in a sequence of days?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there were lots of times he was never around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often do you suppose you have seen him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. More than the 15 or 20 times that you saw him at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was at the club lots of times when he was not working.

Mr. HUBERT. The 18 or 20 times--you mean were the times he worked?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. He was at the club more often than that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often, as a matter of fact?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, once or twice a week, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. What would he do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just come in and have a beer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay around a long time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And visit with friends.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he stay around a long time and go home with Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Lots of times he was there when I left, and lots of times he left before I left, and I have seen him lots of times working, you know, he had this Texas Postcard thing and I would see him downtown. As a matter of fact, I helped him move the postcards from where--from some place out in Highland Park over to Cedar Springs here.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about his relationship in a sexual way toward men?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. In your own opinion, you wouldn’t think he would be classified as a homosexual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He showed no traits such as you recognize them on homosexuality?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; in a sort of a way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what sort of way?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have talked to her on the telephone more times than I have seen her--a number of times more than I have seen her.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you suppose you have seen her in the 18 months you have worked there prior to Jack’s arrest?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Fifty times, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You talked to her on the telephone far more that 50 times--3 or 4 times more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see her when you usually saw her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The first time I saw her was at the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at the Vegas, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about the ownership and operation of the Vegas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in it that you heard of--I know you wouldn’t know about any books or anything like that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me he owned the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean--so far as what you know about it, you got from him, and that was to the effect that he owned it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That he owned it--right.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you know about the relationship of Eva Grant to the Vegas Club.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That she was just running the club. She was his sister and she was taking care of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack go over there very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know. On Friday and Saturday nights they usually have a little amateur show over there and we went over there every Friday night, but that stopped, oh, sometime in the latter part of 1963, and I don’t know whether he went over there often then or not. He would call me a few times from over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the 50 or 60 times you saw her, Eva Grant, would it have been at the Vegas or the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had saw her more times since the assassination than I did before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Very well, but the 50 times or so you saw her from the time you first went to work, would that include the number of times you have seen her since the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Because, I had meant to restrict this inquiry as to the number of times you had seen her between the time you went to work and the assassination.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very few times--very few.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, we have to revise, I think, to some extent, what your testimony has been, because I have been thinking that you had seen her some 50 times during the period between May 1962, and November 24, 1963, but apparently I was wrong on that.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I hadn’t saw her over 10 times on that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there are about 10 times you have seen her in the period of time prior to the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And where would that have been usually?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say three times at the Vegas and the other seven times at the club. I would say she came in the club seven times and these times would be on a Monday night, I would say, about seven times she had been in that club.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say 7 instead of, for instance, 12 or 5?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m just saying I remember seeing her 3 times--I can almost pinpoint the times that I saw her. Let’s see--she came there--Monday, Tuesday----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we need not go into the details--apparently you have some reason you remember seeing her at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was going by the times I saw her with a certain person.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that certain person?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I know that I had saw her with a little waitress named Susie--the first time I saw her at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. The next time I saw her at the Carousel she had come in with some people that I never saw before, and she always introduced me to whoever she was with if I don’t know them, and the next time she came in, I think it was the accountant, Mr. Klinman, and then again she came in with some more people that I didn’t ever know before.

Mr. HUBERT. Different from the first group?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Different from the first group and again she came in by herself about three times--three times--I’m sure--by herself, alone.

Mr. HUBERT. That makes about seven or eight times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the Vegas you saw her three times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three times--I was at the Vegas Club three times, I think, and saw her there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the period beginning from the time you first began to work there and until the assassination, how many times did you speak to her by telephone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times a week.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing much--you see you--she would call you and forget what she called you for, or, just to talk about her troubles.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it about the business of the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, just about her troubles--just to talk about her troubles. She will call me, if she needed anything fixed, she wanted me to tell Howard to stop over and do some repair work for her. I have called her about something I might need for a second night and I couldn’t get it and if she had it I would send someone out for it or she would send it over to me, and things of that nature, but the biggest part of the time she called me was when she and Jack were in a row with each other.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They both--she would cry on my shoulder and he would cry on my shoulder about each other.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very often.

Mr. HUBERT. How often during the time you were there and until the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every other week I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t want to pin you down to anything mathematical, but during the period of 18 months, that’s pretty often.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say so.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about something like--that would be 70 weeks roughly, and 18 months, and every other week would be about 35 times they had rows you know of?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say about 35 times, if that’s the way the calculation is there.

Mr. HUBERT. How did these rows come to your attention?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because they would always tell me. If it was something she didn’t want to do--if it was something she wanted to do and he didn’t want to do it, a lot of times it would maybe happen on the telephone from the club. It was sometimes--difference of opinions, about something.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently they patched those things up too, didn’t they?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, apparently--they would always be back on good terms--it was just like, well, they were before, on the same key. In other words, Jack would get riled up and you will think he was going to walk off of this building and the next minute he was just as sweet as he could be and she was the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship of the club and Jack to the police department and the individual members of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think that the club had a good record and as far as policemen--there was no relation. There was not ever any certain policemen come into the club. We had patrolmen stop in for coffee sometimes, never the same one--hardly ever.

Mr. HUBERT. Would they be in uniform?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In uniform--just like they do all the other clubs, and you would have the vice stopping in just like they do the rest of the clubs, walking around, looking around, never sit down.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some special arrangement with reference to what they would be charged?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the policemen always paid the same price as newsmen and their boys, which was 40 cents on beer, policemen, bellboys, hotel clerks and things like that and newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. They all had a cut rate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They all had a cut rate.

Mr. HUBERT. That was true of members of the vice squad too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That included members of the vice squad. Of course, I never seen any members of the vice squad take anything to drink, any beer or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned one particular member of the vice squad called Gilmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Gilmore.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Mr. Gilmore is a man that will, I believe and everybody else believes, and Jack was afraid of Mr. Gilmore--I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was afraid of him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he was afraid of him because he was nervous whenever Mr. Gilmore was in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was afraid of him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--he would show it.

Mr. HUBERT. How would he show it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. By--making sure that everything was perfect and if it was close to curfew then he would say all the glasses and bottles have to be off of the table by 1:15--12:15 week nights and 1:15 Saturday nights. If Mr. Gilmore was in the club at that time you would see Jack out in the audience hustling glasses and bottles off of the table, because he knew that if Mr. Gilmore saw anything or anybody drinking in there, he was subject to getting a 5-day suspension or a ten-day.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when Gilmore was in the club he enforced the rules more strictly than when Gilmore was not in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Watch over it more strictly, which is something that most club owners do when there are vice squad members in the clubs.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, was the relationship between Ruby and Gilmore different from the relationship of Ruby and any other member of the vice squad?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, the only time--no; not any different, because if there was any other member of the vice squad in there, which Mr. Gilmore is the only one I know by name, is because he is the one that most people fear.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he has the reputation of being tougher than any of the other members of the vice squad?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I guess that’s what it is. It’s just something you pick up. You never saw him arrest anyone, you never saw him close anyone’s club up----

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a captain or what was his rank, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A lieutenant, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his first name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know his first name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you anything about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he just said that some of the old time waitresses--we had one up there by the name of Alice and Jack and some other girl who was discussing Mr. Gilmore and they were discussing his reputation, and Alice mentioned the fact that Mr. Gilmore would arrest his mother if he caught her doing wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her last name--what is Alice’s last name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Her name is Alice Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. She was what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anybody by the name of Alice Nichols?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I talked to her about twice on the telephone--no, no; not Alice--this was Mrs. Blackmon, I’m sorry. Alice Nichols?

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Reeves Nichols.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I heard the name.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never met her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have never met her.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never talked to her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to get to the events and your activities, and the activities of others that you observed during the period just preceding the assassination of President Kennedy and for a few days thereafter. Now, first of all, did your routine follow the usual pattern that you have already described until the date of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you can think of that was not ordinary during that period of time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I can think of that was not ordinary?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--everything was as usual.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the forthcoming visit of the President?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; we didn’t discuss the visit of the President. As a matter of fact, I got behind on the date. I was planning on being downtown that day--that morning myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, didn’t you ask Jack to adjust your schedule in such a way that you could go and see the parade and see the President pass by?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, my schedule of the President was already passed by when I got downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about prior to the time--to November 22--a day or two before, didn’t you discuss with Jack about going to see the parade?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think I mentioned it to somebody that I would be over to see the parade.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you talk to Jack about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know for sure--it could have been Jack--now.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any comment that he made about going to see the parade?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be interested in the President’s visit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember there was something about a conversation going on between him and someone that--I was passing by on the way to the bus--and it was that he seemed delighted that the President was coming to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you overheard Jack say something to someone to the effect that he was glad or delighted that the President was coming to Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long before the assassination you heard Jack say that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t--sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special plans being made in the club in connection with the President’s visit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you start off with your activities on the night before the President was shot, say the 21st--did you go home at the usual time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the usual time.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say--1 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. And your time for reporting would have been when?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. My time for working was 1 o’clock the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report at 1?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was there a little before 1.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before 1?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--let’s see, I stopped and got a haircut and I must have been on the 12 o’clock bus from out where I live.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get up that day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was pretty early, I think I must have gotten up about 10 o’clock or 9:30--about 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to get a haircut?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to get a haircut.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did between the time you got up and the time you got to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s all I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got to the club about what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been about 12:15--12:20, or something like that, because when I got downtown I could see portions of the parade, you know, like I got off of the bus at Main and Field--at Main and Akard, I’m sorry, which is the usual stop, I always get off at Main and Akard, and further down you could see portions of the parade, but I felt that I had missed the parade--I didn’t realize that I had missed the parade until I was in the barber shop and thought, well, maybe I’ll get downtown, I said to myself, and I will see some portion of it, but when I got downtown I was surprised to see that the parade had already moved forward--further down.

Mr. HUBERT. Just for the record, what barber shop did you go to?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Moore’s Barber Shop on Scyene Road. I got to the club----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you get to that, wasn’t it your job to see that the beer was kept on ice?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often did you check that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day.

Mr. HUBERT. And when did you do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the first thing I did.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came in in the morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When I came in in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any special days to do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did it every day.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the delivery of the beer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thursdays.

Mr. HUBERT. Only once a week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once a week.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time did that take place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Anywhere from 11 on--Thursday. It was usually between 11 and 3 o’clock because I would usually leave the club at 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got to the Carousel about what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 12:15, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a key to get in, of course?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--I went in and I had to use the restroom, and so I went to the restroom and then I heard a lot of sirens and I listened to the sirens for a second or two and they got louder and they got more sirens, so I decided I would go get my transistor and see what was going on, and that’s when I heard that there had been a shooting at the President or something like that. Somebody had tried to assassinate the President, or something, and then I run in and I woke Larry up--Larry was staying there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he staying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was sleeping in a little room there.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went and woke him up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I woke him up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--I shook him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the door of his room closed or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the door of his room was--no, it wasn’t closed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had Larry been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. How long had he been there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since October, since the last of the State Fair.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know anything no more than that he was working out at the State Fair somewhere and the first time I saw him is when Jack bought a little something--a little shack or a little house or something that was built at the State Fair by Olin Lumber Company, I think it was, and I don’t know who it was--the company that bought it, and Jack bought the lumber from Olin Lumber Company because it hadn’t been paid for and he had Howard and Larry to tear it down and bring it to the club, and that’s when I met Larry is when he and Howard delivered the lumber to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you that Larry was going to work there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he told me there was a couple of kids to help haul the lumber, but there was only Larry and when I talked to him over the phone, I called him on the phone and told him they was there with the lumber and after they finished, he told me to give Larry something and let him get a shower or something and he would be down to talk to him later. We had a shower at the club.

So, he went in and showered and this and that, and that night Jack asked me did we still have the little cot around there that Larry was going to stay at the club a while--he didn’t have anywhere to live, and I told him, “Yes,” and showed Larry where he could find it and he was there ever since.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what Larry was supposed to do around the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Larry was supposed to do a little cleaning and things of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that supposed to be to relieve you of the cleaning job?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was supposed to be to help me out with the cleaning job.

Mr. HUBERT. When was Larry supposed to do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Whenever he got up or whenever he had time.

Mr. HUBERT. Usually, what did he do?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually he read books.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean, is, when you got there at your usual time, had he begun to clean up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually he had begun to clean up.

Mr. HUBERT. He hadn’t finished though?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it your custom, or duty to wake him up every morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call him every morning to wake him up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No. If he was asleep I didn’t even bother him. Usually he was awake, but there was sometimes that he was asleep and I didn’t bother him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he get paid?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him take any money out of the cash register?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I had given him money out of the cash register.

Mr. HUBERT. How much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, a few bucks to eat off of. If he asked me for a couple of dollars, I would give it to him and let him sign a slip for it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that authorized by Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He had told you to do so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he given you any limit as to how much it would be?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he hadn’t given me any limit.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you do, make a slip to record it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Make a slip to record it.

Mr. HUBERT. And it amounted to what--to $2 or $3 a day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that from $2 to $3--a couple of bucks a day.

Mr. HUBERT. You never gave him a regular salary?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t myself.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you know about it is--it never was over $2 or $3 a day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay around the club at night when the shows were on?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he supposed to do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Go to sleep if he wanted to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take part in any of the operation of the club? Like handling the lights, for example?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He did handle the lights some. I tried to teach him how to work the lights, but he never did learn too well.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any other things around the club at night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than clean up, and that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he eat there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He usually went out to eat--there was no food there. Well, he did--I’ll take it back--Jack did bring him some eggs and things for him to fix his breakfast if he wanted to.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a stove to do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he did cook there much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About twice I noticed that he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that he didn’t cook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, from the time you got there say, around midday until you left at 1 o’clock in the morning, the next morning, would you say that Larry was there most of the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there most of the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to be friendly with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Friendly--well, not exactly. Friendly, but----

Mr. HUBERT. You got along all right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We got along all right.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no friction between you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, most of the time when you got there he had already been awake and at least begun to clean up, although most of the time he had not finished and you and he finished together?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in a sense, he was helping you out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you got to the club about 11:20 and you heard the sirens blowing and you turned on your transistor radio and you heard about the President being shot, and I think you said you went and woke Larry up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I didn’t finish that. I woke Larry up and I--he sat up and I went back out of the room and I went back to what I was doing because it was necessary--absolutely necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were on the toilet, is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and then I heard further reports and I got up again and I went and told Larry the President had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. The first time you went there you didn’t tell him about the President being shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I told him somebody shot at the President, and Larry--I noticed the couple of times that I had woke him up he always went back to sleep and he did the same thing this time, but when I told him that the President had been shot, he jumped straight up--he got up immediately and put his clothes on.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what interval of time elapsed between the first time you woke him up and then went back to the toilet and the second time when you came back and told him the President had been shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know, it couldn’t have been longer than a couple of minutes--I don’t think.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you all do then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We just walked around and listened to the radio, shaking our heads and waiting on more reports.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a television in the place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; we had a television--I turned the television on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you all listen to both the television and the radio?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Both the television and the radio--there wasn’t too much on the TV, so you could get more on the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from Jack, after the shooting of the President?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say about 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you first heard about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. After I first heard about it.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear from him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said, “Did you hear?” and I said, “Yes.” He said, “Ain’t it terrible?” “It’s a shame.” Just like that--real sadlike.

Mr. HUBERT. That was before the President had died?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was before the President had died.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was calling from?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I assumed he was calling from the Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you assume that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because I could always tell when he called from the Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. Why--because of what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, usually on Saturday at the time he was at the Morning News--that was on a Saturday, wasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. No; it was on Friday.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was on Friday--well, Friday or Saturday is the same as--the Saturday ads----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it your testimony then that he was usually at the Morning News on both Friday and Saturday attending to the ads for the week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any other thing that would make you believe he was there at the Morning News, such as some background noises that would be peculiar to a newspaper?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--there was this typewriter that I always hear when he called from down there, and I only heard it at this time--about four clicks of it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on the time he called you about 20 minutes after the President had been shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard four clicks?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the typewriter that I usually hear it on.

Mr. HUBERT. Usually, you would hear a big clatter of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. At this time you heard about four clicks and no more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And no more.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any particular significance to that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I was curious why you mentioned that fact then.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I mentioned it to verify the reason why I thought he was at the Morning News. He did not tell me he was at the Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I assumed that he was at the Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, he asked you if you had heard and you told him yes and he said, “Wasn’t it terrible,” and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What else did he say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said if anything happens we are going to close the club up.

Mr. HUBERT. “If anything happens,” I suppose you mean that he was inferring, or you thought he was, that if the President would die?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say so in so many words?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He just said, “If anything happens.”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. “We are going to close the club.”

Mr. HUBERT. Any other conversation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he said, “I’ll see you in about 30 minutes,” and I would say he was there in about 5 minutes after they announced that the President was dead.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t recall what time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, within 5 minutes after you heard that the President was dead, Jack came in?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know then that the President was dead?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He knew.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was--he didn’t say anything--he just got on the telephone. No, he said something about, “It’s a shame.” He kept saying, “It’s a shame,” like that and he got on the telephone and he was crying.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was speaking to on the telephone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he spoke to his sister, he spoke to--he made some long-distance phone calls, I think one to his brother Earl.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He made one because it was--I could tell--I could usually tell when he was usually talking to his brother Earl.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to Earl very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, during that month of November he had spoken to him quite often about some business deal he was trying to get him to go into.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the nature of that business deal?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Twist boards, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You overheard the conversation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, on this particular day?

Mr. HUBERT. No, I mean on the previous occasions?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, some of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what you heard Ruby say on the Dallas end of the line when he was talking to his brother Earl that he was trying to interest him in investing in the twist board invention?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no--not on this day. On the other days--he didn’t say anything about the twist board this day.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, I’m talking about the other day.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, usually, I knew he was going to talk to him, he would say, “I’m going to call Earl,” and he would ask for Earl’s phone number which was on a pad there by the phone. He would ask me or he would get it himself.

Mr. HUBERT. What was this twist-board business about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was trying to promote a twist board, trying to get it to go over like the hula hula or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he was trying to interest anyone else in that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he sent some brochures and things like that to other people, but I don’t recall who.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you were able to hear during those various conversations between Jack and Earl Ruby, during the month of November, was Earl interested?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, yes and no. You could say he was interested in--for hoping it would be a good deal for Jack’s benefit, but I don’t think he was too interested in investing any money but if he would have to, I believe he would.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you all that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In a way he did.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you mean “in a way”?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, in other words, he said that Earl might invest money.

Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement about whether Earl was interested or not is based upon two factors, I suppose, and correct me if I am wrong--was--one is that you could hear Jack’s end of the conversation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other is that Ruby told you some things about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the net result was that Earl wasn’t too interested in it, but might be for Jack’s sake?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else did Jack call, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he called Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear that conversation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember it was a short conversation but Jack said he was going to close the club up and Ralph said he was not going to close this place up----

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he said that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because he told me later on he did.

Mr. HUBERT. But, at the moment all you could hear was Jack saying to Ralph Paul--he was going to close the place up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack did say--he says, “You should close yours up too.”

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t hear Paul’s answer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn’t hear his answer.

Mr. HUBERT. But later you understand from Paul that he told Jack he wasn’t going to do so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else did he call; do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t remember who else he called--he made five or six phone calls.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say he was crying----

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At two or three stages he was crying there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean when speaking to people or otherwise?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When using the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Only when speaking to people or when he was not speaking to people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he cried when he was speaking to me, after he had got off the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you crying, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack indicate why he was crying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about how the death of the President would affect the business community of Dallas, and particularly the convention business here?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m the one that mentioned it first.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I said, “This will kill the business, conventionwise, and things probably will slow up quite a bit--drop off quite a bit.” He said, “Yes; you’ve got a point.” He said, “I think it will, too.”

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t angry at you for making that suggestion?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He agreed with you, in fact?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He agreed with me.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay from the time he first came in, which you say was 5 minutes after you knew--after it had been announced that the President had been killed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say he stayed there an hour; approximately an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. And most of the time, you think, he was on the phone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Most of the time on the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he get any calls from anybody?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he got some; the phone rang a couple of times, and also the pay phone rang a couple of times; some of the girls called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I answered the pay phone and he answered the business phone.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you all tell the girls; what were they asking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, they were just asking, “Did you hear the news?”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them then that the clubs would be closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not then.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you fix about what time Jack left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You said it was about 1 hour after you heard of the death of the President, or 1 hour and 5 minutes, and if you think that estimate is wrong, say so--I mean anybody can be wrong in an estimate.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that’s about right. He came in about 5 minutes after they announced the death of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed about an hour?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And he stayed about an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. And made these various calls and then left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. Now, what time was the death of the President; do you have that?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose we assume it was approximately 1:30 p.m.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You would think, then, if that is so, he left about 2:35 p.m.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to his leaving, then, did he give you any instructions or tell you what to do?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said that the club was going to be closed until Monday and not to mention it to anybody connected with the other clubs because he, himself, was pretty sure that they wouldn’t close up; his competitors didn’t get along--they didn’t get along.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why Monday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Why Monday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t tell me why Monday. He just said that the club would be closed and for me to call everyone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention Monday that it would be closed Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said the club would be closed Friday and Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why he was picking those 3 days?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What other instructions did he give you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. What about notifying the girls?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I notified them; yes; he gave me the instructions to notify them--all the acts and the waitresses.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Little Lynn--I think her name is Karen Bennett Carlin?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; she came down that night, I’m pretty sure. I think I couldn’t get a’hold of her.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to call her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I tried.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t reach her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn’t reach her.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say she came down that night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think, and Friday night the club was closed and she went back home.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know that of your own knowledge?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not to my own knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are positive that you did not reach Karen--Little Lynn--Bennett to call her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sure I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her husband, Bruce, at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he was up to the club quite often until----

Mr. HUBERT. Until what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was up to the club quite often after the assassination until I suggested that he didn’t come around too often because of some business there; Little Lynn was always getting into something with the other girls, and she got him there to take up for her.

Mr. HUBERT. This occurred after the assassination when you were managing the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was coming around, and you suggested not to come around any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that had happened before the assassination, also, and that Jack told him so, or the same thing?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m sure--I’m not sure that Jack had told him, but I believe that Jack had told him, because he was coming there and he stopped.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the time that Jack came in at about 1:30 or so and stayed until about 2:30 or 2:35 or 2:40, was this man Larry Crafard there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was with you at the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby come back that day, or did you hear from him any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He came back that day.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--when he came back I was gone.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what time did you leave?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I left--I must have left about 4:30.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in the interval between the time when Jack left and the time you left, which was about 2 hours?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wait a minute here: let’s see; let me straighten a little something out here because I am a little wrong here.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; that’s what I want you to do.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I called the people--I called everybody and told them we would be closed that night, Friday night, and Saturday--I called them we would be closed Saturday and Sunday. In other words, Jack said we would be closed tonight, possibly until Monday; in other words, Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Now, when I came down Saturday----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s not get to Saturday yet.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. OK; I will straighten that out.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to that, but right now you want to change your testimony because your best recollection right now is to the effect that on Friday when you were talking with Jack it had not been decided how long the club would be closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But only it would be closed Friday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Friday night.

Mr. HUBERT. It might be closed the other nights, but no decision was made yet?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s your best recollection of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the best recollection of it.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your recollection?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us just for the record as to why you got confused; have you any notion as to what made you get confused?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was getting confused on account of the dates. In other words, I was thinking that I didn’t--that the next time I would be at the club would be Sunday, after I hear about the slaying of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was thinking that would be my next appearance at the club. In other words, I am trying to think ahead, but then my next appearance at the club was Saturday, which I talked with Jack, because I recall Jack fired me that Saturday, but we’ll get to that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will get to that, but we want to keep the dates straight too, if we can, and the times, but let me say this to you: If you do make a mistake in time or date, please feel completely free to come back and correct it, because what we are looking for is the truth.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the reason I’m not giving you any definite time, because like when I had my interview with Mr. Peggs, definitely--any definite time, and that was right after the assassination--just a few days after.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Anyway, the way we have left it is that you left at approximately 4:30, having called the girls and told them that the club would be closed that night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I reached Little Lynn that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You did reach Little Lynn that day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That day, but the next Saturday, I didn’t; the Saturday, I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. So you did call Little Lynn in Fort Worth; is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And told her that the club would be closed Friday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And told her that--what did you tell her with reference to Saturday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I said that we would be closed tonight, and I didn’t say anything other than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, about 4:30 you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I left.

Mr. HUBERT. To go home?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I go home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear from Ruby any more that night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t hear from him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Larry Crafard at the club when you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the conversation between you and Larry after Ruby left about 2:30 on that Friday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. After he left about 2:30?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you said you and Larry were there between 2:30 and 4:30 when you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, Jack left and Larry was walking up and down the aisle there shaking his head and--well, he was doing nothing--I would just try to get up and try to finish cleaning up, which I did, and it didn’t take too much because we had gone through the procedure of cleaning up while we was listening to the news, and that was from a Thursday night and we don’t have that many people in there on Thursday night--Thursday night and Sunday night are bad nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you and Larry talk after Ruby left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I imagine we said a few words to each other; Larry went out and ate.

Mr. HUBERT. While you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, he stayed about 20 minutes, I guess, and when he got back Jack came back in about 10 minutes later.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon; I was still there.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you told me that you had not seen Jack any more that day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’m still thinking that--I’m still thinking when I had not seen Jack on Friday--when I left, I left Jack and Larry in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have to revise this, because I want you to get your best recollection in here.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, this is the reason why I know; I had some boards and some bricks to carry home, and I made a phone call to a brick company over on McKinney and told the fellow if he would bring my bricks over to my house--he said, “Yes”--it was 25 bricks, these boards and bricks for me to build a corner shelf, and I had painted the boards in the club and I remember Jack asked me what was I going to do with those boards and I told him the layout of what I had planned on and he said it was very nice, and I wrapped them in newspaper and I left the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at 4:30; is that the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was about 4:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s get it straight; Jack left about an hour and 5 minutes after the time he first came in; right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left about 2 hours after that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you left approximately, as we have reconstructed it as we went along, about 4:30?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you said that Jack came in again before you left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Before I left; just a little before I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been about 4 you think, or 4:15?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was his condition at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Still in the same--he wasn’t crying any more, but he was still sad and speaking about the assassination and things of that nature and saying a few other things about the club and asked me had I contacted everyone, and I told him, “Yes.”

Mr. HUBERT. What other things about the club was he talking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just about--there was certain things to cut out and certain lights to cut off and was the box unplugged; the things that I always take care of: he always asked about it later.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any phone calls?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, during the second visit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t recall any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him talking to Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he did ask Larry about a certain phone number, someone’s phone number that he had Larry to put down in a book.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whose phone number that was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don’t--it was a business phone number--some business.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make a call?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t remember him making a call.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the business?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it was the people that printed up the stationery--I’m not sure, but I think that’s who he was calling.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear that call?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left it was about 4:30?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left Ruby and Larry at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went home and went to bed--on about your business and didn’t hear from Jack until the next day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you never saw Larry afterward?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. He left a key at the garage downstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first find out about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About the----

Mr. HUBERT. About the key and Larry leaving it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 1 o’clock, I guess, I got down again about 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Saturday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I always stopped at the garage to see if there was any mail.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that where the mail was delivered?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s where the mail was delivered and Ben gave me the key. He said Larry had left it and left a note and just said thank Jack for everything, and that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean a written note?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Ben, the man at the garage, told you that Larry had left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said “Early this morning,” that’s all he said.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t give you any time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had left the key and a written note?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Saying to thank Jack for everything?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That he was leaving?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the written note?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. With the key--just a little piece of paper--I think it was an envelope tore up or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I don’t know--I guess I must have throwed it away because only thing on it was “Thank Jack.” I read it to Jack on the phone and I guess I must have throwed it in the trash by the phone there.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you got upstairs, did you call Jack as usual?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was at his house?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been about 1 or a little after?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 10 after, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you find him then, his attitude, and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said when I told him about Larry, he said, “I guess he wanted to be with his people through all this.”

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to be through with what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said, “I guess he wanted to be with his people through this,”--you know--through the assassination. So, we didn’t say anything else--he didn’t say anything else except he said, “I’ll see you later.”

Mr. HUBERT. You say you read him the note?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And he told you to throw it away?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn’t tell me to throw it away.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did do it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, the note is not in existence right now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. As far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually looked at it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you read it in fact to Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Give us your best recollection of precisely what the note said.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It just said, “Thanks, Jack, for everything.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a signature on it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in his handwriting?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, it was in his handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognized his handwriting?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Larry’s people were at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t know either.

Mr. HUBERT. You found out later, I think?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was a letter that he had received, which--pardon me--someone got it in this letter that I have the letter in my possession.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t have it, but the last I saw of the letter was when I showed it to one of the FBI men at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a letter received by Jack? Or written by Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; a letter written to Larry.

Mr. HUBERT. To Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. From some girl in some other city.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Did you send me this [presenting witness’ letter of notice to depose to Counsel Hubert]?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you remember what city it was sent from?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, isn’t it a fact that you forwarded two letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One that Larry was writing himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to a girl called Gayle.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and one that he had received from her.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter opened?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was opened.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was still in the envelope?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you just gave that to the FBI people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Larry’s belongings there in his room on a little table there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave any belongings behind?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left some shirts, he left a pair of khakies, I think, or bluejeans--a pair of jeans.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any bags up in that room?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had one little bag, a sort of a little square bag with a little handle or two little handles like that [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. By the measurements you are making, it is a bag about 12 to 15 inches in length?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And about 6 or 8 inches in height?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About big enough to get a change of clothes in.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t have another bag, did he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this bag you are talking about made of leather or cloth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was made of leather.

Mr. HUBERT. And all he left behind was just this one change of clothing and two letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see, Jack had bought him a change of clothes, you see. Jack bought him a suit. I think he left what he had--his change of clothing, and carried the suit with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find these two letters, one written to him and one written by him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the room where he slept on a table there.

Mr. HUBERT. They wasn’t in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you pick those things up?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When the FBI’s were there.

Mr. HUBERT. Not before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not before.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you didn’t pick them up on Saturday at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--I didn’t even go in that room on Saturday. As a matter of fact, I didn’t even know he had anything there--they were looking for something with his handwriting on it, for something possibly where he had gone and we started searching where he was staying and we found those letters.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was on the first day you spoke to the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this was not on the first day. We opened back up on a Monday, I think we spoke to the FBI--one FBI that Monday, but later on, you know, there was some other ones--possibly the last part of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was then that they were talking to you at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And they asked about Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you all went and searched his room where he had been and they found the letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You are sure that that’s right, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I looked in the room myself. They was in the office, which has a door from his room to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in his room either on Saturday or Sunday, the 23d or 24th?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you looked in his room, it was when the FBI was interviewing you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I didn’t even know Larry had left any belongings there until the FBI was asking me about it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went into the room alone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, the door was open.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you came out and you showed them these things?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what date that was on?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, as I understand it, a little after 1 on Saturday the 23d, you spoke to Ruby over the phone and told him about Larry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did any other conversation take place between you on that telephone call?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. None?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what to do with reference to the club on Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he would be there soon or something of that sort?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he would be there sometime “this afternoon.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay there until he came?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I was there when he came.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he come?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t recall the exact time--I don’t think that Jack came in the club that day before--it was late in the afternoon--I don’t know the exact time, but it was somewhere around 6 or 7 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it still daylight or dark?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was still daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any phone calls during the time you talked to Ruby on the phone until he came in?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was phone calls--something about was we going to be open--a few reservations came in, and I told them I didn’t know whether we would be open tonight or not and to call back later, and there was a couple of girls called.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The girls was told, “I’ll talk to you later.”

Mr. HUBERT. So, Jack came in at approximately 6 o’clock, or at least before dark--but it was getting dark, right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Describe his condition at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was still in a sad mood, you know, in a sorrowful mood, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he wasn’t crying this time.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in a sorrowful mood, too, I take it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his mood and yours were about the same?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--my sorrowful mood was sort of on the inside mostly, and his was in his face and in the way he was worried about the things. He seemed like--to be more worried than ever.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, how--that is to say--what was he doing that gave you the impression that he was more worried than ever? You have told us he had a sad look on his face?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was--he just felt like--it seemed like he was just disturbed over what had happened, you know, over the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you are telling us about the mental impression you formed, which is perfectly all right, but it would be helpful to us if you could give us facts upon which you base your opinion, you see? Now, you have given us one fact--he had a sad look on his face. If you could tell us the things that he said or did.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t recall anything that he said that day, no more than--he said the club was going to be closed and immediately I got on the phone and started to making phone calls.

Mr. HUBERT. To all the people who were concerned?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, to all the people.

Mr. HUBERT. And the object was to tell them not to come in that night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--I know now--and it was around 6 o’clock, because one of the girls was getting ready to come down to town, one of the waitresses. They had to be there at 7:30, so it was around 6:30--between 6 and 6:30 when I was making the phone calls.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you tried to call Karen Bennett Carlin then, but you couldn’t reach her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Couldn’t reach her, and I believe Jack said, “I will call her later.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he undertook to call her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me to keep trying and he would try to call her, too, and he left and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he leave?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left about 7 o’clock, between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he was there roughly between an hour and an hour and a half?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were making all these phone calls?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, and he asked me to stay there until about 8 o’clock, just in case any customers called and if they did, to tell them we would be closed until Monday, and he called me back and he said, “What time are you leaving?” I said, “Well, 8 o’clock, I want to go home.” He said, “Well, will you stay on to 10?” I said, “What should I stay here until 10 o’clock for?”

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling from, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was calling from home, I’m pretty sure it was from home.

Mr. HUBERT. What gives you that impression?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, because he had said, “If anything come up, call me.”

Mr. HUBERT. To call him at home?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said, “Call me,” so--he always just said, “Call me” when he was at home and if he was not at home, he would always give me a number.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he said, “If anything happens, call me,” you knew that that meant he was at home, because that was the custom?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and so we got into a discussion of whether I should stay there until 10 o’clock or should I leave at 8 o’clock, and I said, “Well, I’m leaving at 8 o’clock,” and he said, “Well, just get on out of the club and don’t come back no more.” And slammed the phone down.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about a half hour after he left, wasn’t it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, but I stayed there until 8 o’clock, like I said I was going to stay, and I closed the club up and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear from him any more that day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Sunday, did you go to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had planned on going to the club--I was planning on looking for another job Monday morning, because I said--“This is it.” I had already made up my mind then I wasn’t going back to work there, no matter what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I just got fed up.

Mr. HUBERT. But this had happened, I think you said, 35 times or so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean to say is that the last time is the straw that broke the camel’s back sort of thing?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had definitely made up your mind that this time you weren’t going back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that this time you were going to start looking for a job on Monday morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club on Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, after I heard about it--well, I was listening to the radio that morning--I was not looking at television.

Mr. HUBERT. You were home then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right; it was Sunday morning?

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When I heard about the shooting of Oswald and they said it was a well-known nightclub owner, and so I got a phone call--no, then, it come on the radio that it was Jack Ruby and I got a phone call is when I found out it was on television.

Mr. HUBERT. Who called you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A friend of mine--William Morris. He used to help me down at the club some Saturday nights when we had a big convention in--he would come down and help me out at the bar.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what--he called you and told you it was Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I knowed it was Ruby--they said that on the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, Morris called you and told you it was on television?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said, “Did you see it on television?” And I said, “No; I didn’t see it on television.” He said, “Well, turn the television on.” And so I turned the television on and they rerun the shooting, and what I saw on the TV was a rerun.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And so--about--sometime during that day, I forget what time it was, I called Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it actually, and where was it from?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. From home.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s a long-distance call, wasn’t it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there would be a record of that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and he said----

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s do it this way--can you tell us how long after you saw the rerun that you called Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t know whether it was before I went down to the club or after I went down to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you had called from your home?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--you see, when I went down to the club I wasn’t gone but an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you go down to the club for?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went down and fed the dogs, because I knew that they would be down there all day long without any food, and Clipper, I was crazy about and I didn’t want him going hungry--that was the only two dogs there, so I fed the dogs--went down and fed the dogs and there was a newsman in front of the club and he tried to grab me when I came out.

Mr. HUBERT. The police did too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just the newsman, but I didn’t give him any statement or anything. I had called a friend of mine to bring me downtown and I went and got in the car and went on back home.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you are not sure whether you called Paul from the club or from the house?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know I called him from home, but I don’t know if it was before or after--it was around 12 o’clock, I imagine, when I got downtown--somewhere along in there, but when I did call Ralph, I said, “What are you going to do, open the club up?” He said, “Meet me down there Monday,” and I did meet him down at the club Monday and decided to keep the club open.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with anyone else during the course of Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the FBI Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed until Monday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when they interviewed you then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club--Monday night.

Mr. HUBERT. The club was open then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were managing it for Ralph Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I wasn’t managing it--he managed it himself.

Mr. HUBERT. You met him there Monday--Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it during the daytime?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was during the daytime.

Mr. HUBERT. He decided to keep on running it and asked you if you would just keep on with it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--oh, yes; I did call Eva Grant.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mrs. Grant.

Mr. HUBERT. What day was this?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On Sunday--no, no--on Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak to her on Sunday?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I called her on Monday and told her Jack had fired me--this was Monday morning. She said, “Well, nonsense, you know how Jack is. Go on down to the club. Mr. Ralph said he would meet me down there.” And she said, “You know how my brother is, he was disturbed, he didn’t know what he was doing anyway.”

Mr. HUBERT. Paul had just simply told you to meet him at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t know anything about the firing, but I told him at the club--Monday. Now, when I told him, he said, “How many times does that make?”

Mr. HUBERT. Who said that--Ralph Paul said that to you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I said, “I don’t know, about a hundred, I guess.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long did the club continue to operate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It continued to operate until February, I think it was, the last of February--the last Friday in February.

Mr. HUBERT. Who decided to close it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The vice squad decided to close it.

Mr. HUBERT. For what reason?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I mean, the Liquor Control Board.

Mr. HUBERT. Because the license hadn’t been paid?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because the license was in Jack’s name and it was obvious he had violated those liquor licenses when he shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen anybody at the club that looked like Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Oswald himself in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell anybody that you had?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did you ever tell Larry Crafard that you had?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Billy DeMar?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was an M.C.

Mr. HUBERT. He also had a memory act, didn’t he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard the story, haven’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I have heard the story.

Mr. HUBERT. That he said he had seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s what he told me--he said he thought that he saw somebody that could have been Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was later--he said--he was walking around every night saying that the newspaper misunderstood what he had said. He said he definitely did not state the statement that they had in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible that you told Larry Crafard that you had seen him, that you thought you had seen somebody that looked like Oswald in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it isn’t possible--no.

Mr. HUBERT. We have been going for 3 hours, and let’s adjourn for lunch.

(At this point the proceedings in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong were recessed for lunch and resumed at 1:35 p.m. on the same date, April 14, 1964, as follows:)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, you understand that we are continuing the deposition which we started this morning, and which we adjourned at about noon, and you understand that we are continuing it under the same oath and conditions upon which it was begun. You understand further that you are under the same oath you took this morning at the very beginning of the deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under that same oath?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me clarify one point before I go further--with reference to the gun or pistol that you have already testified about, can you give us a description of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let’s see--it was not a large gun, a small barrel on it, I guess you would call it a snub nose.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice you were holding your fingers apart there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And would you say you were holding them about 5 inches apart?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 inches, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the whole length of the gun from one tip to the other?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a revolver?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think it was a revolver.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what kind of barrel it had on it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it had a little short barrel.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, what color was it; black, blue, steel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was--I don’t remember--I only saw the gun, you know, in sight--you know I saw the bag a jillion times, but the gun only a couple of times, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of handle did it have on it; do you remember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it had a brown handle on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby have a holster for that gun?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw it with one--I never saw a holster.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, by a holster, I am including both types of holsters, one that is worn on the belt around the hip and one that is worn slung around the shoulders and the gun is usually in the armpit, you know what I mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw either type?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, as I understood your testimony, you never saw him actually carry it on his person at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Either in his pocket or stuck in his belt or otherwise?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose gun that was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I assumed it was his gun.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear any talk about whose gun it was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me where is my gun--the few times he came in and left it in the kitchen and asked me about it and I would say, “You left it in the kitchen, or some place like that.”

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Turning to another subject--did you ever observe any particular interest on the part of Ruby with reference to police or police work?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Any particular part or effort?

Mr. HUBERT. Any particular interest on his part in police or police work--generally?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever in your presence express any views toward the police--good or bad?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, the only views he ever spoke was good views.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an example?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just that he didn’t like to hear anyone knocking the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear anyone knock the police department in his presence?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, not direct--saying any bad things about the police department, but someone might have made a statement about the police department and he would not like it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, are you drawing on your imagination for that, or do you remember a specific instance in which he indicated that he did not like a person speaking in a bad way about the police?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I don’t remember--in my mind I was trying to remember--to recall an incident, but I don’t remember an incident, but there was an incident, I’m sure.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you, then, you definitely have the impression that he did not like people talking badly about the police?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any specific instance which you can give us as an example of how you formed that impression?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But the impression, nevertheless, is in your mind?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard him discuss politics?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What opinion do you have concerning his interest in politics?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. His interest was that--I have heard him say--I have heard him say this, that anybody that was elected to hold a certain office must be responsible and capable of taking care of that position or they wouldn’t be elected.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a specific instance that you remember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when it was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t remember when it was, but I remember that incident--I know who he was talking to--it was just a conversation and I happened to be there and to hear this party.

Mr. HUBERT. His view, generally, then, was that an elected official should be respected, is that the idea?

Mr. HUBERT. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Because they had been elected by the people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss the President of the United States?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’m sure I have--everybody has, but I don’t know of what nature or what subject, but I’m sure I heard him discuss the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you know that in this country as perhaps all over the world there are different views about government, and society normally called “isms” left or right or communisms or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or things of that sort?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard Ruby express himself in areas of thought such as those?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know he threw a guy out of the club once for speaking as a Communist.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was just that this guy was heckling with the MC, Wally Weston, and he was coming on like he was a large portion of the Communist Party.

Mr. HUBERT. This man was--this patron?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and Wally stepped off of the stage--he made a remark that----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” do you mean Wally?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the customer made a remark that Wally could be--made a remark something similar to Wally could be a Communist or something like that too, in other words, “How do I know, you may be a Communist, too,” or something like that. And, Wally stepped off of the stage and said, “Don’t you call me a Communist,” and he hit the guy and by the time he hit him Jack had him and was rushing him out the door, and told him, “Never come back in this club no more.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he push him out of the door?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He pushed him out of the door--he pushed him up against the wall and told him to go out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t hit him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t hit him--Wally hit him.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack hustled him out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you go out the door, you are going to face a wall--in other words, the stairways come up like this [indicating], and the door is here and you’ve got to turn and go down the stairway and he shoved the guy right on into the wall.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he walked down the stairs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then he hurried down the stairs.

Mr. HUBERT. When was this incident?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was--I would say around the last of September or somewhere along in there or October.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix the date?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was toward the last part of the summer, I’m sure.

Mr. HUBERT. This man had been in the audience boasting, you say, that he was a big shot Communist?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not a big shot, but he come on like he was a big portion of the Communist Party.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of looking man was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a young fellow with two other young couples from Arlington State College--I think that’s where he said he was from.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that’s what they said--that’s what they had said, Wally had asked them where they was from and he said he was a student at Arlington--I’m sure they said Arlington.

Mr. HUBERT. At where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At Arlington College.

Mr. HUBERT. At Arlington State College?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Arlington, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say there were two couples?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; there were two men and a lady.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was one of the men who was going on like he was a big Communist?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. The other man and the lady were quiet?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They were quiet and never said a thing and they apologized for his behavior after Jack had put this other guy out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they stay on?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; they said--Wally said, “Are you going to follow your friend?” And they said, “No; we couldn’t say he was a friend of ours, and we just happened to be together.” And then he dropped out.

Mr. HUBERT. How was this man dressed, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had a suit on.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 21 or 22, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 feet 9, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What would be your estimate of his weight?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not much over 150 or 160.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had a tie on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a mustache?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No mustache.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think he had dark--I don’t know whether it was black or dark brown, but it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like, if you could, for you to fix the time of that incident a bit closer than you have been able to do it so far.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; I couldn’t--the air conditioners were running.

Mr. HUBERT. The air conditioners were running?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And it was around the last of August--it wasn’t too--well, if you could ask Wally he probably could give you a better date than I could when it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the night of the week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be helpful if you tried to estimate how long before the assassination of the President this all happened?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Crafard there then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he came after.

Mr. HUBERT. That was before Crafard came?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About how long was it before Crafard came?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--well--it was sometime during the summer

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby about it afterwards?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Ruby say anything about it afterwards?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Wally and I discussed it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that discussion?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was teasing him about his right hook.

Mr. HUBERT. His what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. His right hook.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit the guy pretty good?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, Wally split his hand open and I got some band-aids and bandaged it up a little bit and helped him clean it off.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is Wally Weston now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Where is he?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--he was working at the Club Montemarte, but he’s not there any more and I’m sure he’s not in town now, so he’s probably on the road some place.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any other people who were there that night, such as George Senator or Ralph Paul?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; things like that I don’t try to remember.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Weston leave, do you remember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, let’s see, Wally left in September, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long had he been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since about June 1961--no, 1962, I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there about 15 months, but you thought that it was in the last month that he was there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; somewhere right around the last few months he was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if he left in September--you thought earlier than that--it might be, this incident might have occurred in August, if that’s the case, it wouldn’t be then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when he left there--he still had that scar--it was still sort of open a little bit on his hand, and it hadn’t been healed up--well, it had healed, but it was such a big gash and you could still see the print where they took the stitches out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to go to the hospital?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had some stitches taken in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything from your own knowledge, that is having heard or seen things at the club, which would throw light upon Ruby’s attitude toward the race question, the Jewish question, and so forth?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever heard him fussing with his entertainers who cracked jokes about Jews?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn’t like for the entertainers to crack any jokes about Jews or to tell any Jewish stories.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he told you.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see, Wally and some of the other M.C.’s have some pretty good jokes about Negroes and Jack told me once----

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack asked me once--did Wally’s jokes offend men in any kind of way, and I told him “no”. So, he said--well, there was something about it he didn’t like--the reason why he didn’t like his M.C.’s to tell any Jewish jokes was something about the Jews have already had enough problems and enough troubles already or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t think so--I wouldn’t say that he was proud of being a Jew, I wouldn’t say he was not proud, because I don’t know. He never showed anything to give me any kind of reason to form an opinion about that.

Mr. HUBERT. When Larry Crafard left and you found out about it, what was your reaction?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn’t have any reaction.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you think about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; just plumb nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, weren’t you surprised that this man should go off like that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Why not--it was rather strange conduct just to pick up and leave?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I didn’t give it any thought--he left the way he came. He came unexpectedly and he left unexpectedly. It didn’t bother me one bit whether he stayed or whether he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you, prior to the shooting of Oswald, give any thought to the possibility that maybe this man Crafard was getting out of town for some reason?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know how he was getting out of town?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t--I didn’t know how he was leaving.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever found out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t ask him when I saw him at the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about what conversation you--there was between you and Crafard at the trial of Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No conversation at all. He did most of the talking.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn’t say anything, but he said something about--he was surprised when he heard about Jack--the shooting of Oswald, and Jack, and that the FBI had contacted him, and I just told him that I had found the letter from this girl Gayle and had given it to the FBI and that was about all there was--that was about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where he had been?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn’t tell me where he had been. He said he had a job in some kind of mine somewhere up in Missouri or wherever he was, and he left there to come back here to the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he had come to Dallas for the purpose of attending the trial?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; for the purpose of testifying.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember where it was you spoke to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the county courthouse downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean just in the hallway?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Downstairs--just as you come in the door.

Mr. HUBERT. You only had one conversation with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that afternoon I was on my way back after recess and he was on one side of the street and I was on the other side of the street and he saw me and he came across the street and he said, “You remember this suit?” It was the suit that Jack bought him, and I said, “Yes.” And he said, “This is all I’ve got--that Jack bought it for me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only other time you spoke to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the only time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did the conversation last?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not longer than a few minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you give any thought to the possibility that Crafard’s sudden departure the way he went might be linked up with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never have given any thought to that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting of Oswald, and now that you look back on it, can you tell us anything that indicated that he might have been thinking of doing it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That Jack might have been thinking of doing it?

Mr. HUBERT. You understand I don’t mean that you knew prior to the shooting that he was going to do it, but now that you look back on those days.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can remember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That might throw some light on what he was thinking about in that regard?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t believe he was thinking about it until after he did it. The reason why I say that, because you’ve got to know Jack--he always did things on the spur of the moment, you know. He always blowed up just like that [snapping his fingers], if something disturbed him, he would always just crack up. He was charming one minute and the next minute he was all riled up.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the Dallas police concerning this matter?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Never?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the district attorney?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any of his staff?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by Jack Ruby’s attorneys?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You were subpenaed to go to the trial?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed to go to the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone ever talk to you about the nature of the testimony you were expected to give?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the only someone I talked to is Belli. He came up to the club the first night, the second day he was in town, and he asked me what did I think of Jack Ruby, when I was letting him in the office, he hadn’t gotten in the office good before he asked me that, and I told him, and he said “Okay,” and nobody ever talked to me since then.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The same thing I told you--about him cracking up--he just--everything he did, he did it on impulse.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about that or did you volunteer that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me--he just popped up and asked me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he pop up and ask you, “What do you think about Jack Ruby?” Or, did he ask you “Does he pop up and flare up suddenly?”

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; here’s the exact words he asked me, “Why do you think Jack shot Oswald?”

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you tell him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that he did it on an impulse, is the only reason at all--just cracked up and shot the man.

Mr. HUBERT. But Ruby never carried a gun around on his person, did he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. He had a gun that day with him, though? Would that influence your thinking somewhat?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And from what I understand of your previous testimony, the that fact that he would have a gun on him would be unusual; wouldn’t it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Coming in and out of the club, yes; but I don’t know whether he carried it on him or not when he was not coming in and out of the club. In other words, I was stating that if he did carry a gun--when I saw him with a gun, it was always in a bag, never on him, but when he was away from the club--I don’t know where he had this gun.

Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he didn’t carry it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, when you found that he did carry it on the day he shot Oswald, didn’t that rather surprise you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; my wife asked me, “What was Jack doing with a gun?” And I said, “I don’t know. He might have just had it in the car and didn’t want to open the trunk because he had that money in there, probably, and just stuck it in his pocket and wasn’t in his senses that he had been in all the time.”

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife, in fact, was curious about the same things I’m asking you about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Why would she have been curious about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was because that she never knew that he carried one and she didn’t like guns, so when it come to the question of a gun, she, by being a woman, and you know how women are about being curious, she asked the question, but she asked a whole lot of other questions about things she never knew.

Mr. HUBERT. So, your testimony is that when you found that Ruby had shot Oswald, you were not surprised that he was carrying a gun?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I wasn’t surprised.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any members of Ruby’s family about the man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About the gun?

Mr. HUBERT. No; about Ruby’s case.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not other than Mrs. Grant called me and talked to me and she would do most of the talking--this and that and it’s always about the same thing and it just bugs me, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You have only spoken to her by phone since Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I spoke to her in person. I have seen her at the club a couple of times. She has been up there and I have seen her down at the courthouse and I saw her a number of times up to the club after the club had been closed, down at the club trying to sell it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she ever talk about the case itself?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not to--not any more than any other sister would say when her brother was being locked up or committed a crime.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you were subpenaed, did you ever ask her or anybody what they were calling you for?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn’t ask anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. And you just hung around the court during the entire time of the trial?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not the entire time of the trial; the last week of the trial--Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Those were the only 3 days you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just those 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. You received your subpena after the trial began?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for 3 days?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three days.

Mr. HUBERT. The trial ended on Saturday, I think?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who excused you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said--I asked him the second day--I ask him, I said, “Well, listen, when are you going to use me, because I’ve got a job and these people are not going to hold off--they are going to hire somebody else.”

And he said, “We are going to put you on tomorrow, in fact we will get to you tomorrow,” and Belli changed his mind about using me on account of the record I have.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson came out that afternoon and told me and I kept asking him--no, that was after the judge had recessed for that day, I asked him, I said, “Listen, I’ve got to go to work tomorrow,” and he says, “Well, go ahead, Belli is not going to use you on account of your record,” and so, to my surprise I lost my job by not being able to work those 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were you employed by then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had just started with Yardell Construction Co., they build houses--homes.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than the time you spoke to Belli at the club and he asked you what you thought about Jack or why he killed him and you told him, did you ever speak to Belli or anybody else about what your testimony would be about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that as far as you know, they were going to question you about your opinion about Jack?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that’s what I thought.

Mr. HUBERT. And then, Burleson told you the reason they couldn’t use you was because of your record?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the paper?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess you saw pictures on TV and some of the famous pictures that were published at the time he got shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he bear any resemblance to that man that had the fight with Wally Weston?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this gentleman that had the fight with Wally Weston was sort of a young loudmouth, a smart alec--he had kind of a full face--a handsome fellow.

Mr. HUBERT. You are willing to state that it was not the man whom you have come to know through pictures as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would be positive about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Positive.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked for a man by the name of Roland Davis one time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Roland Davis?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think he was connected someway with the El Rancho Hotel.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked there in 1961?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that was right after I got out--I have forgotten about that--right after I got back.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was a night clerk at the motel.

Mr. HUBERT. Who hired you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Davis.

Mr. HUBERT. Does Mr. Davis have other lines besides running the motel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he engaged in selling--in dealing with Jeeps?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw any Jeeps. The only cars I saw he would own was a Cadillac and a station wagon that had “El Rancho” on the side of his station wagon.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Ruby was ever involved in trading in automobiles with Jeeps?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard that at all?

Air. Armstrong. He just could get a car, from what I gather.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just could get a car from what I get.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn’t thinking of his buying Jeeps for his own use, but trading in them. That is to say, as a business.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Nancy Jo Mooney?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nancy Jo Mooney; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you know one by the name of Betty MacDonald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of a girl who had worked at the Carousel as either a waitress or a stripper who committed suicide about the middle of February of this year?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. By hanging herself in jail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And she was arrested.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anything about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And any of those names--Betty MacDonald or Nancy Jo Mooney mean nothing to you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a girl named Nancy who worked at the club for a few nights or a few weeks--I don’t recall. There were so many girls came there--some of them I don’t even remember their names, but I don’t know whether it was Jo Mooney or what her last name was--as a matter of fact, I don’t even recall how she looked, but I remember writing the name Nancy as a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have a Polaroid camera at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it used for?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. To make pictures of the twisting, customers doing the twist on the stage, which the M.C. would use to make a joke with them--and give the customers the picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Who operated that camera?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard do so also?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One Sunday night, I think he did--I remember showing him how to operate it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were those the only pictures that were allowed to be taken in there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any other photographer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--there was----

Mr. HUBERT. Who would come in and take pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was this magazine that came in to make some shots, but they required--that was for the magazine article did on the Carousel Club, which, anybody that appeared in the picture that was a customer signed a release on that picture, or if they did not sign a release on the picture, it couldn’t be used.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that take place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That took place sometime between the last of October and the first of November. Larry was there--he came there the last of October--it must have been the first of November.

Mr. HUBERT. Must have been around the first of November--did he stay just 1 night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; 1 week.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the man’s name, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Offhand, I can’t recall his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Rocco?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Rocco; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And he took a series of pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He took a series of pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed about a week and then left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But other than that, there were no pictures taken?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no other pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jimmy Rhodes?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He’s a photographer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come around?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of the girls--usually at his studio. If he made any at the club, it was not during business. It was all right for anybody--there was lots of pictures made, you know, like during the day, if the girls wanted to come up and pose for the photographers and things like that, that was okay, but when I said no other pictures were made in the club, I was speaking of during business.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was no commercial photographer there who would take the pictures of the patrons and sell them to them; is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But anybody could take pictures if they wanted to?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, if they come in after I get there in the daytime and tell me they would be there to make pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, during the shows?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; anybody couldn’t take pictures, if we saw anyone with a camera we would take it away from them--they had to check them.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was prohibited to take pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They was prohibited from taking pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody you knew of could take pictures except Jimmy Rhodes and Rocco and of course you, with your Polaroid?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, but Jimmy Rhodes could not take pictures during business. In other words, when we had customers in the house and there was a show going on, no one could take any pictures but Rocco is the only one I know that made pictures, besides myself, when there was a show going on and we had customers in the club. I’m speaking of before this assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?

Mr Armstrong. He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on--Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, “I know him--I know him.” Just like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his reaction to the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said--he was in a sort of--he said, “Isn’t it a shame?” You know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be as disturbed about the shooting of Tippit as he was about the shooting of the President?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was already disturbed and he didn’t show to be any more disturbed over that than he already were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about a girl named Gloria?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a girl named Gloria that worked up there--I can’t recall how she looked, but I remember the name Gloria.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you remember her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. By the name.

Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing in the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress--I don’t know whether she did any dancing or not on the amateurs, but I know that there was a girl by the name of Gloria.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she with Ruby, did she date him, or what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of--it wasn’t one of the girls that I hired, so he must have brought her in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not long.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many days?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I couldn’t say--a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month--I don’t know. It couldn’t have been over a month though, because the girls that stayed there usually stayed there a month or 2 months--I usually remember them quite well.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some girl that was going with Jack during the last 2 or 3 days before the President was shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a girl by the name of Joyce Lee McDonald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you know about her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She is a stripper. Her name is--her stage name is Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. During what period?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, during the period of--I would say 2 months before the assassination through the end of the year. She left about the third week in January, I would say, approximately 3 weeks she worked during 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. She was a stripper, was she?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard that Jack was supposed to have been in the B & B Cafe with some girl either before the President was shot, the night before or the night after, haven’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I heard that.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, I think you were asked about that by the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--I don’t know whether I was or not. Somebody asked me about it--yes, I’m pretty sure it must have been the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you identify the girl as being Joyce McDonald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I don’t recall--no, I wouldn’t have--I wouldn’t have identified the girl as being Joyce McDonald, because I wouldn’t have had any way of knowing who it was unless they described her to me, and as I said, it could have been Joyce.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember a girl who worked about 5 or 6 nights at the Carousel Club and whom Ruby had taken home after closing hours on each of the nights she worked?

This was a girl that you tried to locate after Oswald was shot to help you run the club?

Do you remember looking for such a girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, that was the lady--oh--I don’t recall her name now--“Duckie” or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that lady, in any case?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, all I know is that Jack had told me she had some knowledge of club running and that she was very smart and sharp and when I had went to see him, he had suggested that if I--he said----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean when you went to see him in jail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he said, “I don’t want to be involved with the club any more, but if you want to do it, you can contact this lady.” He give me her name--it was “Duckie” or something like that, to come down and give you a hand, because she knows something about operating a club and you can talk to Ralph about it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you tried to find that girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I tried to contact her and I didn’t have any luck and I told Ralph about it and he said “forget it.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that girl you remember as being the girl who had been around the club four or five or six times; isn’t that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that Jack used to take home at night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean to his house, but he did--he left with her, at any rate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know whether he left with her or not because I leave before he does.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember making the statement to the FBI to the effect you knew of one girl there that worked for 5 or 6 nights, it was the same girl you looked for later, and that Ruby had taken her home after closing hours on each of the nights she had worked there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went to see Jack in the jail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times did you go to see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, five or six, maybe seven times.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone with him all the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; there was always a policeman standing there. A guard.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about his difficulties?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he talk about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He talked mostly about the dogs and----

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about Sheba?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that see that Sheba don’t eat too much because she will get too fat.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about leaving Sheba in the automobile that Sunday when Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t say--he didn’t mention that to me. The first time I went to see him I asked him where were Sheba and he told me he had left her in the automobile and later on, so he told me, to contact the pound, to see if the pound had Sheba, and would they release her, so I called the pound and the pound said that they had her, and Joy Dale went out and picked her up and brought her to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the McDonald girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the McDonald girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Jack about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you how he got in the basement?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he never discussed the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about having sent a money telegram to Karen Bennett that morning?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me that.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he had sent--that Little Lynn owed him $20 or $25, whatever it was, he sent her, plus some more money that she had already drawed that was not on the record, before they paid the payroll, and deduct it from her salary.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you the circumstances under which he had sent her money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he sent it by telegram?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn’t tell me he sent it by telegram--no; he didn’t tell me, but Little Lynn told me.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Little Lynn tell you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She just said that Jack had sent her the money. You see, I asked her first how much money had she drew and she told me and she also told me that Jack had sent her about $25, I think it was, by telegram.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you why she needed the money by wire?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; she didn’t tell me why.

Mr. HUBERT. Her pay wasn’t due until Sunday night, isn’t that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Until Sunday night, which we was closed, they didn’t get paid Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. They got paid Monday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it was Tuesday before they got paid.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was then that you deducted from Little Lynn’s pay the amount that had been advanced to her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen Jack yet?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I saw Jack on Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t mention to you that the money had been sent to her by telegram?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He--yes, he said that he sent the money--he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25”--he said, “I sent Little Lynn $25.” He didn’t tell me about telegram.

Mr. HUBERT. He never discussed with you at all how he got into the jail house?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about, or did you know that he could go to the police department and find his way about because he knew a lot of people over there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he never talked to me about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that to be a fact?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That he could do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On these 8 or 10 visits that you made to Jack, he never had discussed with you one single aspect of the killing of Oswald, is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your visits, generally, then?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just, I guess to see how he was doing, to say, “Hello” and to send him messages that the girls had sent him and carry his mail down there if he had any addressed to him personally.

Mr. HUBERT. How would you handle the mail?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would give it to Mr. Decker.

Mr. HUBERT. The sheriff first?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. To the sheriff.

Mr. HUBERT. Has anybody given you any money other than what you have earned?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have had your regular salary all the time that you worked for the Carousel until it closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it more or less than you were receiving before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was a little more.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was $60.

Mr. HUBERT. Instead of $45?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that money, did you receive any money from Ralph Paul or any of the brothers and sisters of Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, from any other source?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no more than tips, you know, like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I understand that, but I mean no other sums of money in excess of $5?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. No other sums of money in excess of $5?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. $5?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put it this way--you received your salary and you received tips?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any single tip that was over $5 at any time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes; they had single tips--I always have. Certain customers come in lots of times and give me $6 or $8 and sometimes $10.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you say that $10 was the highest?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Ten was about the highest.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t received by way of tips any sum, say, more than about $10?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that was 1963 or 1962?

Mr. HUBERT. No, I’m not talking about that far back.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--you mean after the assassination?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say you are having a hard time now, is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very hard.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no money saved?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was--it’s gone, you know, a few bucks that I had saved. In fact, I have been paying bills.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was that money?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I had saved?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it amount to about a couple of hundred dollars, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You had it in cash?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.

Mr. HUBERT. And other than that, you didn’t have any money anywhere?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn’t have any money.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any money in any way--in a bank, I mean?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than--other than $90 I received from income tax.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean a refund?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A refund. The reason why it was so hard is because my wife, she lost her job, the business she worked for, they went out of business just a little bit before the Carousel closed up.

Mr. HUBERT. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record. At this point Counsel Hubert marked exhibits as hereinafter shown.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked these exhibits as follows:

Exhibits 5300 A-F, inclusive; 5301 A-E, inclusive; 5302; 5303 A-M, 5304 A-B, inclusive; 5304 A-S, inclusive; 5306 A-B, and 5307-A. Now, I show you a group of pictures which I have marked for identification, “Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, as Exhibit 5300-A, -B, -C, -D, -E, and -F, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong.” And I have signed my name on each one of them for identification, there being six pictures altogether. I should like you now to look at those six pictures after which I wish to ask you some questions regarding them. Now, I ask you whether you recognize what place is in the background of these pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

(Examining pictures referred to.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, state what it is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One of them is----

Mr. HUBERT. No; the place that’s in the background--that’s a picture of what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me see--that’s the picture of the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5300-A?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that true also of Exhibit 5300-B?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are four others, Exhibits 5300-C, -D, -E, and -F. Is the background of those pictures different from the background of Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the background of Exhibits 5300, -C, -D, -E, and -F?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It’s the background of the Colony Club and the Empire Cleaners.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that nearby the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on all of these pictures in series Exhibits 5300, there is a man, is there not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all of these pictures, there are two girls; is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. One of them has blonde hair and seems to be dressed in black, has a black sweater, apparently, and black pants visible in some of the picture; do you know who she is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her full name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Coleman, I think it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a second girl in there who seems to be dressed in a dress with horizontal stripes in the top part of the dress and vertical stripes in the bottom part of the dress, a blonde-haired girl, do you know who she is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That is Alice Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Alexander?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--Alice Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s turn first to Kathy Kay and let me ask you what you know about her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; but she was a stripper and she was there when I came here.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time when these pictures were taken?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that’s the first time I ever saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you believe that Kathy Kay was a stripper when you first went to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And she was there all the way through the time you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was there all except for the time she left, for about maybe 3 weeks or maybe a month, and she came back.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, she was there at the time Oswald was killed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; but not after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean she stopped after that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--she stopped.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other girl whom you have identified as Alice Alexander?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Alice Alexander--she was there when I got there and she quit, and she and Jack would always--they would fight frequently and she would come back, and she was there when--during the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, she was there when you first went to work in May 1962?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What did she do at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. She was not a stripper?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And she and Jack would fight, you say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A difference of opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. But they never got to hitting one another?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And she would quit sometime?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But she was there at the time of the assassination of the President and of Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long had she been there, dating back from the assassination of the President and of Oswald, and from the last time she had quit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, it’s hard to say----

Mr. HUBERT. A month or so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been back longer than that, I’m sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she quit once or more than once?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She quit three or four times--I would say--about four times, and was back in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the last time she quit, when did she quit the last time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The last time was sometime during the summer.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did she stay away?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month, I guess. She never was away no more than a month.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember about the time she came back?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been more than 2 months before the President was killed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I’m pretty sure it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be more than 3 months?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--I couldn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. You are sure it would be more than 2 months but you are not sure it would be as long as 3 months?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. As I say, if she had been working as a waitress all the time, I would know, but a lot of times--half the time she was working as a cocktail girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the difference between a cocktail girl and a stripper?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well,--in other words, a cigarette girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, a cigarette girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She would have the cigarettes--sell the cigarettes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she dress like she was dressed in the pictures that are marked Exhibits 5300-A through 5300-E when she sold cigarettes?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the way she dressed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She would be dressed in a dress. She was selling cigarettes then.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if there was anything between Ruby and her of a sexual nature?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to; do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She has been married--but she was--I don’t know her husband’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever know her by the name of Fillmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a girl by the name of Grace Fillmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Gloria Fillmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know any such person as Gloria Fillmore?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to this girl called Alice Alexander after the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She stopped for a while and then she came back later on.

Mr. HUBERT. And she stayed until the club closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; she was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any boy friends you know of?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of--she never had anybody come up there and----

Mr. HUBERT. And get her and take her home?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And get her and take her home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Ruby taking her home?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where she lived?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Somewhere in Irving, but I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Irving, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] I-r-v-i-n-g?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you remember that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wait a minute; I’m sorry, it’s not Irving--it’s Grand Prairie, because there was an AN number--that’s Grand Prairie.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that far from Dallas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it isn’t far from Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she drive a car?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She drives a car.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in the sign which appears in the background of the photographs identified as Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B, there are two other names--Tammi True and Sal Ember--who is Tammi True?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True was a stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she there at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she stay on afterwards?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She stayed on.

Mr. HUBERT. Until the place closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She wasn’t there at the time--she was there prior--no, she was there before the assassination--some weeks she had quit--served out her contract and she came back afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before----

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a week, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish my question--how long before the assassination of the President did her contract expire, so that she left or quit about a week, you say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a week.

Mr. HUBERT. And she had been there for some time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been there--she was there when I got there and she was booked there off and on all while I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Sal Ember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s not Sal Ember--that should have been--you see, some of the letters are missing--this was--this should be Cindy Embers.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the top line first--the pictures, Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B show on the top line the letters [spelling] S-a-l. You say that that was wrong and it should be something else and that some letters are missing?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What should it have been?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the Sal should have been Sal Vincent.

Mr. HUBERT. Vincent [spelling] V-i-n-c-e-n-t?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that--I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Sal Vincent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A comedian.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next name that appears on Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B in the sign in the background below the word [spelling] S-a-l, is the word Ember [spelling] E-m-b-e-r, and I think you said that’s wrong too, because of the absence of letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What should have been the letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cindy Embers.

Mr. HUBERT. Cindy [spelling] C-i-n-d-y?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Embers [spelling] E-m-b-e-r-s?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And who was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she there at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did she leave?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She left sometime ago--back, I think, the last time she was booked there was back in the summer. She never worked there over 3 or 4 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. And what about Sal Vincent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He did--the first month after Wally Weston left.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Sal Vincent leave, how long before the death of the President?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long had he been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month.

Mr. HUBERT. And now, is it safe to say then, that these two pictures, Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B must have been taken during the month of October 1903?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Because that’s the only time when that sign would have made sense as to when those people were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall the occasion when these pictures were taken?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, it is necessary for us to recess your deposition for a short period of time and during this recess will you please examine the other pictures I have shown you and then we will resume your deposition later.

(Short recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, we discontinued or recessed your deposition about 20 minutes to a half hour ago.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And now we are recommencing it and you understand, of course, that this is just merely a continuation of the deposition under the same authority under which it began, and that you must consider yourself under the same oath that you were at first?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a group of five pictures marked Exhibits 5301-A, B, C, D, and E. I have placed on the back of them “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and signed my name and I have given each one an exhibit number as indicated. Now, I would like for you to look at those pictures for a while and then I am going to ask you some questions concerning them.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examined exhibits referred to.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all of the five pictures which compose Exhibit 5301, there is a man; who is that man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Also in all of those pictures there are two girls, and will you agree with me that in all five of them one girl is always on the left side of the picture as you look at it and one girl is always on the right side of the picture as you look at it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell who the girl on the left side of the picture is in each one of these pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Joy Dale?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In other words she was Joyce McDonald.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the girl on the right-hand side, the blonde girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. “Little” Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same as Karen Bennett Carlin?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when these pictures were taken?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned some time ago that you recall when some individual named Rocco came in and took a group of pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when he took the pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that particular one. I didn’t know he made that one. It could have been done while I was out tending the bar or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the scene that is in the pictures in the series Exhibit 5301?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that, please?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s office?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is it the two girls are sitting on?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the couch.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what you know about the girl in the left-hand side of the picture as you look at it, that is to say, the girl with the dark hair?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, all I know----

Mr. HUBERT. And whom I think you have identified as Joyce McDonald.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose stage name, shall we say, was what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you know about her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that she is a stripper at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had she been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been there some--maybe 4 months before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think she came about the middle of the summer, then, July or August?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me see--let’s see--September.

Mr. HUBERT. Mid-September?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do--how do you fix that, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was around the time that Wally left. I don’t know whether she was there right after Wally left or just before Wally left.

Mr. HUBERT. Had she ever been there before, do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay after the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She left sometime--during the--about 3 weeks in January of 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean she was there 3 weeks in January and then quit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where she lived?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What salary do those strippers get?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Anywhere from $100 to $125.

Mr. HUBERT. A week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A week--some of them made $150--some was $200.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship was between Joyce McDonald and Jack Ruby, if any?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just a business relationship as far as I could see.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she go out to dinner with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did there seem to be any kind of social relationship between them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did there seem to be any kind of romantic or sexual relationship between them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby have any sexual or romantic relationships with any of the girls in his club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say he had some, as far as I know romantic relationships. In other words, he was always on the make.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, coming to Joyce McDonald, do you think she--that he was on the make with respect to her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would not state definitely, but I believe he probably tried.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any boy friends around there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom she lived with?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she drive an automobile?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She didn’t drive.

Mr. HUBERT. How did she get to and from work; do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually somebody would bring her to work--I only saw her downstairs getting out of a car once and some man drove her to work, and that’s the only time I ever saw her getting out of a car.

Mr. HUBERT. You would usually leave at night before they did, didn’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other girl, the one on the right-hand side of the pictures as you look at them, which have been identified as series Exhibits 5301-A through 5301-E? I think you have said that the girls there, the blonde, is “Little” Lynn or Karen Bennett Carlin, is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. She was married to Bruce Carlin?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that’s what they said.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the one, or rather her husband was the one that Jack didn’t want around the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the one, I think, that you called on Friday, the day of the assassination to tell her that the club would be closed that night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you could not reach the next day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about either of these two girls that you have not testified to so far?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a single picture which I have marked on here for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5302, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I have signed my name, and I ask you to look at that picture. It seems to be the picture of a man, and I ask you whether you can identify that man or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s Rocco, the photographer, that made the pictures--took the series of pictures at the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there for a week, you said?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what period of time was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. What?

Mr. HUBERT. What period of time was he there--when was that week?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Around the 1st of November.

Mr. HUBERT. From the 1st to the 7th or 8th of November?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he pay anything for the purpose of taking those pictures--did--to your knowledge, did he pay anything?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. He got the consent of Mr. Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to show you a series of pictures which have been marked for identification as follows, to wit:

“Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1904, Exhibit 5303, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I have marked my name on each of them, and they are numbered, in addition to Exhibit No. 5303, of which they form a part of the series, they are numbered A through I, and I ask you to look at those pictures, please.

Mr. Armstrong [examined pictures referred to].

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you have examined the several pictures constituting Exhibit 5303, marked in a series as A through I, and I will ask you whether you can recognize anybody in any of these pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s then take Exhibit No. 5303-A, first, and tell me whom you recognize in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. This right here--the first picture.

Mr. HUBERT. We are talking about the top picture on the left hand side--right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--is Joy Dale, and the M.C. that’s shown in all of these pictures, the little man on the stage--give me a minute and I will try to think of his name, but coming down the line, the second picture on the left hand side is Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the girl--she is being held up by a very huge gentleman by the name of--oh--I know his name--his name is Tiny--he comes in the club quite often and he usually gets the same seat--a special chair we had there for him.

Mr. HUBERT. This picture appears several times, does it not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, it appears in the third row of the left-hand picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it appears in the bottom row of the left-hand picture, correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often would that man come to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he started to coming there back in the summer--last summer and he was usually there--he very seldom missed a weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him only as Tiny?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. As Tiny.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard his last name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he friendly with Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not friendly--just that--he didn’t well, you could say they was friendly, but they didn’t know each other, anything about each other’s backgrounds, or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking with him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not conversationally.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them go out together and come back together?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he spend a lot of money there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, a few beers was all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him with anyone else?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He always came alone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One time he came there with a couple other guys, but just once, otherwise, he was all alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know the other men he came with?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember when he came in with the other two men?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--the top picture is----

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, before we leave the big man called Tiny, when was the last time you saw him, to your knowledge?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four nights ago--Saturday night--I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean this past Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about April 11?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you work there now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I stopped by and say hello to a friend of mine that works there and bartends.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was over there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have saw him in there, oh, about four times I think in the last month--I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that, when was the last time you saw him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Prior to that--the last time I saw him was at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say it was probably the last weekend before we closed.

Mr. HUBERT. He continued to come to the club, then, after the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about Ruby’s shooting Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk to anybody else about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did. The reason why he’s got to be so popular is because he is a helper--he cracks a few jokes and the M.C.’s like to talk to him because he don’t get out of line when they talk to him, and he is usually called on during the spinning of the roulette wheel, or something like that, and if he won a bottle of champagne or something like that, it was a big thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he employed by the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he wasn’t employed, he was just a regular customer that has very nice conduct and has a good sense of humor.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the M.C.’s figure they can always get a kick out of him, which would amuse the audience?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which is marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-1, and ask you if that is not that same fat man on the right-hand middle of the picture, with a white shirt, with his right hand on his hip and the left hand leaning on the stage right by the microphone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the man, Tiny, that you have identified as being in Exhibit 5303-A; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And while we are looking at Exhibit 5303-I, who is the girl dancing there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The waitress over there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the one with the white blouse?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And she has dark hair; you can’t see her face, but you can see the back of her figure.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it’s Bonnie.

Mr. HUBERT. Bonnie who?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bonnie Kelley is all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. That girl you are identifying is in the left middle of the picture; right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Right behind the man with the gray suit and with his left hand by his mouth and a cigarette in his left hand; is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s correct; and this is Tiny’s usual position--his usual sitting position--he always gets this table right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish you would just take these pictures, starting with Exhibit 5303-B, and just state for the record who is in the picture that you know, identifying each of the particular frames, by saying whether it is in the top row, second row, third row, or fourth row, and then whether it is on the left-hand side, the middle, or the right-hand side.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the top row on the left-hand side is Tammi True. On the top row in the middle is Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps we could shorten this by putting it this way: On this number of pictures, 12 to be exact, of Exhibit 5303-B, the girl who is doing the act is Tammi True--right--in all of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It isn’t?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the series of pictures in the left line down from the top to bottom and in the middle from top to bottom is Tammi True. The pictures on the right-hand side--the brighter pictures--are Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. All four of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All four of them.

Mr. HUBERT. On the right-hand side?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have identified the pictures on Exhibit 5303-B?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you look at Exhibit 5303-C? There are 12 pictures on that, and they are all the same girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They are all the same girl, Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anyone else in there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, take Exhibit 5303-D. There are 12 pictures in that and they are all of the same girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; they are all the same girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’ll ask you to look at Exhibit 5303-E. There are 12 pictures on that, showing various poses of a girl, is it all the same girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; all the same girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anybody else in there you recognize?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, take the next picture, which has been identified as Exhibit 5303-F, also consisting of 12 pictures, except that in the second row the middle picture is blank, so that there are really only 11 pictures, and I ask you if the same girl is in all those pictures; that is to say, the dancer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, let’s take the left-hand row from top to bottom. Is it the same girl in those four pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Same girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. And in the middle series there is a top picture and the next one down is blank and then the third and fourth rows from the top, there are two others--who is in those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. In all of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, move to the right-hand row; there are four pictures from the top down, and will you identify them? Are they different girls in those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that’s Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. They are all of Little Lynn?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anybody else in there you recognize in those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just a waitress in the bottom picture.

Mr. HUBERT. In the bottom right-hand picture; right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. The girl with dark glasses on, on the right-hand side of that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Does she have shorts on, or something?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She has some white slacks on.

Mr. HUBERT. And a black sweater?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bonnie Kelley.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s the girl you identified in a previous picture; is that right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else you recognize?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no one else.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a group of 12 pictures identified as Exhibit 5303-G, and ask you if the same girl is in all of those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The same girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else you recognize in any of those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, I show you an exhibit marked 5303-H, also a group of 12 pictures, and ask you to start with the row of 4 pictures on the right-hand side from the top to the bottom; who is in those 4 pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Kathy Kay?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; on the right-hand side?

Mr. HUBERT. On the right-hand side.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this is Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. She is in all four of those?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All four of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, take the middle row; who is the girl in those?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. No; the left-hand row of four pictures--the two from the top--the first and second pictures from the top, can you identify those people?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the lower pictures on the left-hand row; there are two people, a man and a girl; who are they?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s Kathy Kay; I don’t know who the man is.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he employed by the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, we have been taking your deposition all day and it is now 5:15 p.m., and I suggest that we adjourn and that you come back Thursday morning--can you do that--or Thursday afternoon?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you come in without any further notice on Thursday, April 16?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; we will recess your deposition until that time and complete it on Thursday, April 16.

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. RESUMED

The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:12 a.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, you recall that day before yesterday we recessed the taking of your deposition because it was getting late in the day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And we made an appointment to continue it today at 1:30, but that was changed again to 9 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s satisfactory with you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand that what we are going to do today is simply a continuation of the deposition that was begun the other day; you understand that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That I am acting under the same authority, that you are here in the same way that you were here before, and that you are under the same oath that you were under when you testified before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Except there has been a recess just like there was on Tuesday when we recessed for lunch?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Only this recess has been a little longer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, when we left off the other day, you had been examining a number of pictures which had been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303, and I believe that you had examined all of the pictures in that series except those marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-J, K, L, and M. Now, I show you, first of all, the picture identified as Exhibit 5303-J, and ask you if you recognize what place is pictured there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the girl standing on the stage.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the girl with the dark skirt, light sweater, and with long tresses?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The picture shows only the back of her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, she is right back of the microphone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man just in front of her, right in the center of the picture, leaning over?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s a customer; I don’t know who he is.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who he was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the M.C. standing back by the girl, but I can’t recall his name.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the M.C.,” you are, referring to the person in that picture whose head stands between Tammi True and the customer you have identified and actually right above the top of the microphone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was an M.C.?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know his name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that Wally Weston?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who followed Wally Weston; do you know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sal Vincent; he followed Wally Weston, and this guy followed Sal Vincent.

Mr. HUBERT. It that Bill DeMar?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when Sal Vincent left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sal was only there 2 or 3 weeks. In other words, you could say the last part of--during the last part of September, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Vincent, you say?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; Sal Vincent.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he left, you mean, in the last part of September?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there about 3 weeks?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 3 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. And Wally Weston had been there before him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had Weston been there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wally had been there since about June 1062.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had been there about 15 months when he left?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was following Sal Vincent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Sal Vincent stayed 3 weeks, until about the end of September?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And this man you have identified as the M.C. in Exhibit 5303-J took his place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed how long?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He stayed about a month, I would say; he stayed about a month.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that he stayed until about November 1 or later?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I would say he stayed about that.

Mr. HUBERT. And who followed him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill DeMar.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did Bill stay--Bill DeMar stay?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill DeMar stayed up until after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long had Bill DeMar been there when the assassination took place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 3 weeks--3 or 4 weeks, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that Bill DeMar came in there about the 1st of November?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he took the place of Sal Vincent?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--no--no, he took the place of this man right here [indicating picture].

Mr. HUBERT. That man?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The man I can’t identify.

Mr. HUBERT. He took the place of the man whose name you can’t remember, in Exhibit 5303-J, but whose name you don’t remember?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you do happen to remember his name a little later on, will you interrupt me and tell us about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture, identified as Exhibit 5303-J?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-K, and I ask you to look at it.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right [examining instrument referred to].

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the place is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that’s the club--I’m sure of that--I’m sure that that is the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody in it at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; the waitress in the upper right-hand corner.

Mr. HUBERT. The waitress in the far background in the upper right-hand corner, whose profile can be seen, and also her left arm--she seems to have a white blouse on, right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. She is standing by a picture frame or a window or something, correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s our little Margie--her name is Margie.

Mr. HUBERT. Margie what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Margie Norman.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m marking with an arrow, which I am placing my initials on, and I ask you to place your initials on next to that arrow too, and the arrow points to a man about in the center of the picture at the bottom, and he has on what appears to be a grayish checked shirt--you can see him by profile--he parts his hair on his left side. Do you know who that man is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you recognize nobody else in the picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you pictures marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-L, and ask you if you recognize the place, first?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It’s the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is on the stage holding the mike?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else is in the picture that you recognize?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you another picture which has been identified as Exhibit 5303-M, and ask you first if you can identify the place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man on the stage holding the mike?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5304-A and ask you to look at that picture and tell us, first of all, if you recognize the place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it the Carousel Club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know it is not the Carousel; how do you distinguish it from the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the whole picture--it’s definitely not the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the Carousel have that kind of furniture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a bar?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a bar with liquor bottles on it like that one does?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have chandeliers like that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any person in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man sitting at the table in the foreground of the picture who is being served a drink by a girl in costume?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him anywhere?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the girl who is serving him the drink, do you recognize her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen her any place?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you see a man in the picture near the bar who appears to be the bartender?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don’t see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I see him, but I can’t see him too clear--I don’t recognize him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Mike Ryan?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that Mike Ryan?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are certain that it is not Mike Ryan?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Mike Ryan?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was just a--he came in--the first time I ever met him he was with Jack, and he was sort of a lone wolf sort of on the go all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come around the Carousel very much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At one time--I would say it was within a period of a couple of weeks he was around there quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that period of a couple of weeks that he came around there very often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t recall--it was during last summer.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the summer of 1963?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been when Wally Weston was there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was when Wally Weston was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come after that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But not as often?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of Ruby and him discussing anything?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I guess, business.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They were discussing business.

Mr. HUBERT. They were discussing business?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack was always discussing some kind of business with somebody--he always had some kind of idea about another club or another kind of business.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of business he was discussing with the man you have named as Mike Ryan?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A private club.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard such a conversation?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean another private club in addition to the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the Carousel wasn’t a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see; so in other words, the thought was to open a private club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just talk though.

Mr. HUBERT. And talk is all you would know about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes. I mean--it was just one of Jack’s wild ideas, that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you characterize it as a wild idea?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he always had these ideas--it was something this day and something the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. But the only reason you are saying this was a wild idea is because you are thinking it was like some of his other wild ideas?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But other than that you don’t know whether it was a wild idea or not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other business between Ryan and Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no more.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they go out socially?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Ryan since the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he came up to the club a couple of times and I saw him the day he left for California, at least that’s where he told me he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been around the first of December.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean it was right after Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what business he had in California?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times after Oswald was shot do you suppose you saw Ryan in the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A couple of times, oh, two or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about Ruby and what had happened?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; no more than anybody else did. He said, everybody would always ask me, “What’s wrong with your boss?” And he said the same thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Tommy, who used to go out with Joy Dale, kind of a boy friend of hers?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A baseball player?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was a guy that used to bring her to work sometime, so she said, but I never saw him, and he came up and worked--handled the door sometimes for Jack, he did, and they would always sit down and talk together--he and Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Oswald was shot and you remained on, and Mr. Paul began to operate the club, did Mr. Paul get anybody to handle the front door?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Leo Torti handled the front door most of the time.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I take he was in his late forties.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a little gray in his hair?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. A little gray.

Mr. HUBERT. He handled the door?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He handled the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him and this man Torti we are talking about sitting together?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; Tommy always sat close to the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He handled the door sometimes himself?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometimes; himself.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I show you a picture that has been identified as Exhibit 5304-B and ask you if you can recognize the place that is pictured in there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it is not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any of the people who are pictured in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will show you a group of photographs which have been identified as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong, Exhibit 5305-A through 5305-S.”

All of these also bear an Exhibit No. 5225, April 10, 1964, deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I will ask you to look at them, starting with Exhibit A and see if you recognize what those pictures show?

Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining pictures referred to]. This picture here shows----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the first one, and that is Exhibit 5305-A, is it not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It shows the back of a 10-cent notebook.

Mr. HUBERT. The back of whose notebook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I can’t identify that because I don’t know--it could be anybody’s notebook.

Mr. HUBERT. It appears to you to be a 10-cent notebook, because it says “10 cents” on the front of it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see a book which had a back and front like that which appears in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Lots of places.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any at the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any in Jack Ruby’s possession?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack Ruby have one that had a back and front like the one in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he did not, or you don’t know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he could have--I never saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you look at the rest of those pictures, just taking them as they are and putting them face down, and see if you recognize any of the writings or names or anything else in those pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. This is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognize Jack’s handwriting--in which ones?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. In all of them that I have seen.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in all of them that you have seen so far?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you made the remark that you recognized Jack’s handwriting, I think you were on the picture that is identified as Exhibit 5305-B. You had also looked at Exhibit 5305-C?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you to look at the whole bunch and tell us if they are in Jack’s handwriting or not?

(Mr. Armstrong examines instruments referred to.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you’ve gone through the whole series of photographs and, which are photographs of pages of books that have been identified as Exhibit 5305-A through Exhibit 5305-S, and I ask you if you can tell us whose handwriting is in those books?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It appears to me that it is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s a lot of it that is in print, isn’t there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Especially the print.

Mr. HUBERT. His print--you recognize his prints?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. We both printed more than we wrote.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen his print before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s your opinion that that is his print?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see the book before--the original of which these exhibits are pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he always had a little notebook, but it was one that opened--not to pull the page up, but opened just like a regular book, you know, a little small book about 2 inches by 1½ inches--just a very little small book.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as you went through these pictures, Exhibits 5305-A through 5305-S, did you recognize any names or numbers or addresses?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I saw Little Lynn’s name there and I saw Tom Palmer’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Tom who?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tom Palmer.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tom Palmer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He’s one of the union agents--he was the Dallas union agent for the AGVA.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any other names?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wasn’t looking at the names--just mostly handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you had better go through and look at them with the names in mind and take them one by one and tell us any names you can recognize in anyway.

The first one is Exhibit 5305-A, and that’s the cover. No. 5305-B is the one--now, if you recognize anything, stop so that we can identify the exhibit number of the picture that you recognize.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the name “Vegas Club” on the top of that.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-D. Is there any significance to you other than that you recognize the name “Vegas Club” on that exhibit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that they have some figures there for tax, which is the usual procedure of putting them down--the usual way.

Mr. HUBERT. Just go on and if you have no recognition of any picture, just pass it without comment.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the print on this as excise tax for the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. What exhibit are you talking about--is that Exhibit 5305-H?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any significance to that recognition other than you recognize this, sir?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize what it means--I recognize the name Tom Palmer and his home phone number.

Mr. HUBERT. Your comment is directed to Exhibit 5305-H, is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I recognize the name Bro. Bear.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to Exhibit 5305-M, and you recognize a name on it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bro. Bear.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] “B-r-o. B-e-a-r” and underneath that is “Service” and then there is a telephone number--LA 8-1767.”

What do you recognize about that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the name Bro. Bear.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was an entertainer at the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of entertainment did he do?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think he sings and he played some instrument--I don’t know which.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever at the Carousel?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I see a name on that same Exhibit 5305-M, “Bertha Cheek,” do you recognize that name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any person by that name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I also see on this same Exhibit No. 5305-M at the bottom of the page, Bob Litchfield [spelling] L-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have heard the name but I don’t know who it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Whose handwriting is that in--I’m not going to say that that’s Jack’s, because his handwriting--I can’t tell too much about that.

Mr. HUBERT. You can’t be sure that that’s Jack’s handwriting?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not the writing, but the printing I could--if it was printing I could--the numbers look like it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Bob Litchfield was?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bob Litchfield; Bob Littlefield.

Mr. HUBERT. Littlefield; it is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I’m sorry--I was reading it wrong--perhaps that is right, this says [spelling] L-i-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s a magazine--let’s see--I don’t know. It was the “Around Town” magazine, I think it was the Littlefield “Around Town” magazine.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a man called Bob Littlefield?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you read the name here at the bottom of the page as “Littlefield”. Let’s put it this way--you have already told us about a man named Bob Littlefield--what do you know about a man named Bob Lichfield here?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing at all; you never heard of him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it make any difference to you that he might have been known as Bill Lichfield?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a Bill Lichfield?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I recognize the man--I recognize the name “Little Lynn.”

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-S?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. And it has her phone number.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you recognize “Little Lynn,” you have already testified about her, I believe?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures that have been marked for identification as Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B, each of which purports to be pictures of three memo slips, and ask you if you recognize them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose handwriting they are in?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It doesn’t look like Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any names or telephone numbers on those memo slips?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have looked at all six of them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you read the messages that each contained?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes; here’s one--I think----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the memo slip on the right-hand side of the pictures as you look at it, the picture having been identified as Exhibit 5306-B. Now, will you comment on that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. I had asked you whether the message meant anything to you. You seemed to indicate that the message on the picture I have described does indicate something to you, and now I ask you what does it indicate?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I’m sorry. I made a mistake--it doesn’t, but this one here, the one in the center, I think that’s Palmer--Tom Palmer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the middle slip on the picture identified as Exhibit 5306-A, and you say the message there you recognize; right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you recognize it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The telephone number and the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the memo slip that you are talking about, and I repeat for identification, that it is the middle memo slip on Exhibit No. 5306-A, apparently is addressed to Ruby because it has his name there, although one can see in the picture, can’t one, that there was a word that looks like somebody started to write “Armstrong” and then stopped--right--or something?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the date is 11-14 at 3:40, and then there was printed “while you were out Pauline [spelling] P-a-u-l-i-n-e phoned, FE 7-5992.” It looks like.

And then there is a checkmark in the block “telephoned” and a checkmark in the block “please call” and the message is: “This one I couldn’t tell if she was colored or white,” is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you identified that with Palmer?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It looked like it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you were mistaken, say so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of that message now?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any that you had any recognition about, any one of the six memo slips on the Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will show you an exhibit that has been identified as Exhibit 5307-A. It is a picture of one slip of paper, and I ask you if you could identify that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now I show you photostats of a number of pages in a book, which have been identified the other day when you first were here: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibits 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I ask you to look at all those pictures first, and tell me if you recognize that book at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I’ve already looked at them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about it do you recognize? What book was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. This is a little notebook that Larry carried around and took messages on and wrote checks, phone numbers, and things down on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it at the club--where was it kept?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry kept it in his pocket, although, when he left, he left it there with him.

Mr. HUBERT. He left it where?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left it at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He left it with you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; he just left it at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you came back to the club, the day after Larry left, to clean up, I think you found some other things of his and you found that too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, did you find that at another time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that same day. No; I didn’t find it then--it was later.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you find it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometime after the club opened back up--I don’t know whether it was Monday or Tuesday--whatever day the FBI’s came up this day, I found this.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was in the room where he slept.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find it on the same day that you found the letters?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. They were together?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you turned them over to the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you said you have looked over that book already--the other day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything significant about that book you wish to comment upon?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can recognize a few names in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if they were names of any people that you have not so far mentioned in your deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think----

Mr. HUBERT. All right; I would like you to go through and pick out the names of the people that have not yet been discussed by you as part of your deposition.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here is a name--Mike Shore--I’ve heard it before--I think he is an agent.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the first page, right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and here is a name--Abe Kleinman--which is the accountant.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the second page?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Earl Ruby, that’s Jack’s brother.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on the second page?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Doris and Peggy, on the second page, which they had called for to apply for jobs.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Larry did himself.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know, then, that they had called to apply for jobs?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me--he wrote the name down and it was the day we were looking for waitresses, and he give me the numbers, and I didn’t reach them as they were not at home or something, and the name Bill DeMar.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He’s an M.C.--the name Mike Ryan.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already talked to us about Mike Ryan, haven’t you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Little Lynn--I have already talked to you about that. Here’s a name--Bobby Patterson of--I’ve heard of, I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What have you heard about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--I just heard the name--I forget what he was connected with.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is looking over the pictures, and that as he has any comment, he has been asked to make such comment without further questioning from me.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I recognize the back of the notebook.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the back of the notebook.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I just recognize that that’s the notebook that belonged to Larry.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which is described as a photostatic copy of some sort of a notebook which has been identified as follows: This page is marked, “Dallas. Texas, April 14, 1964,” which is when your deposition began, “Exhibit 5309-A, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I have signed it.

Let the record show also that this exhibit is also marked “Washington, D.C., Deposition of C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5302, April 9, 1964,” and under which appears the name of Mr. Burt Griffin.

This exhibit consists of nine pages. There is typewritten on the front of it, “Notebook number 1,” found on the left-hand bottom of the exhibit, and the number “(1)” and then on each of the subsequent pages there is typewritten there at the right-hand side, “No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9,” in that sequence.

I ask you if you can identify that document? Now, look the whole thing over and we will do it in this way. I want you to look it all over first and tell me without making any comment, and then tell me whether you identify it or not.

Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining instrument referred to].

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you have looked over all of these pages, and first I ask you whether you recognize the book at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the handwriting or printing in it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe once--one time a long time ago Jack had a notebook like this.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you say now whether the one you think he had a long time ago is shown in these photostatic pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must be, because my old telephone number is in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Your recognition of the book, though, is not based on an actual recognition now, but an assumption, isn’t it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You really can’t recognize that as Jack’s handwriting or have a distinct independent recollection of having seen the original of which those pages are photos?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’ll ask you to do as you have done with the last exhibit, and that is to look over each page and see if you recognize any name or number? If you do not, pass to the next page. If you do, stop and tell us what page it is on and then make what comments you have to make.

Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining instrument referred to]. First, I’ll say I believe that is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, a moment ago you said you couldn’t be sure--have you changed your mind?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to do that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certain letters here that I know his way of printing.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, go on with the examination of each page as I have asked you to do.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Bill Willis.

Mr. HUBERT. What page are you talking about--that is typewritten at the bottom of page 4--right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the bottom of page 4.

Mr. HUBERT. What name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill Willis.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a drummer at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was he a drummer at the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Ever since I been there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there until the place closed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was there almost 2 years?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there longer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he and Jack get along all right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. They got along better than anybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. What evidence did you see to support that conclusion on your part?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Bill Willis was one of the few guys that I ever heard Jack say was a nice guy--continuously.

Mr. HUBERT. Was--so, your assumption that they got along better than anyone else is based on what Jack told you about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was that Jack continuously said he was a nice guy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. He liked him and everybody else did, because he is really a wonderful person. I recognize my phone number and the name “Andy.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 4?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. On page 4--I recognize the name “Wally Weston.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 6?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That’s on page 6. I have heard Jack mention the name Joe Cook.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on page 6, too?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Joe Cook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack have to say about him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just mentioned him in his business--I’ve forgotten what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he mention Joe Cook?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been shortly after you got there, towards the end, or about the middle of the time you were there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--I couldn’t say. I recognize the name Peggy Steele.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on page 8--who was Peggy Steele?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a stripper that was booked there for about a month.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago--what period of time was she there?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t know--it was sometime about the fall of 1962, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. She was there for about a month?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After she left, did you ever see her?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she ever around the club any more?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the fall of 1962, not 1963; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1962--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of Exhibit 5309-A, and I understand that you have made all the comments that you have to make about any of the entries on those various pages, and that is to say that you made a comment as to any name that had any significance to you at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And if you have not commented on the name, that means that the name has no significance to you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to ask you to do substantially the same thing with another document that I am handing you that has been identified, “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964,” and this was marked for identification on your last appearance. It is marked as Exhibit 5309-B, “Deposition of Andrew Armstrong.” I have signed it. The document consists of 20 pages. It is a photostat of an original, apparently. It has written in type “Notebook No. (2), page 1,” on the first page, and then on each of the subsequent pages there are numbers running from 2 to 20.

I would also like to have the record note that this exhibit has also been marked as “Exhibit 5204,” relative to the deposition of C. L. Crafard.

I would like you first of all to look through all of the pages for the purpose of a general identification, after which I am going to ask you to go over each page as you did the previous document.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is examining each page of the exhibit.

Now, you have looked at all of the pages of that Exhibit 5309-B, and you have identified it all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--no--well, yes, I have looked at it but I haven’t identified it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll put it this way--have you ever seen the original of which this exhibit is a series of pictures?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen that address book, or whatever it is?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don’t remember seeing this--now, I could have, but I don’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember ever having seen it at all?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me make this statement.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead--you wish to make a statement?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack kept a number of little books and little pieces of paper wrapped up with a rubber band in his coat pocket and whenever he got ready to look for anything he would take it out and run through it, take out one of those little books, which I didn’t pay any attention to it--this could be one of the little books he had.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do not recognize it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t believe you have ever seen it before?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you to go over each individual page and if there is any entry or name that has any significance to you or that you recognize in any way, stop and identify the page and then make your comment. If, as you turn the pages over and examine them you have no recognition or the entries are not significant to you, then your silence as to each page will mean precisely that.

That is to say, that those entries mean nothing to you.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] I recognize the name Sam Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what page--the page you are referring seems to be unnumbered--an unnumbered page, but it is the third page back from the one that is numbered 20, is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Sam Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby’s brother.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he around the club much?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet him before Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I met him at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever speak to him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing--he would tell me about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. The last time I saw him was at the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, did you see any other names that you recognized in that exhibit?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No others.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, the other day I asked you to read a number of reports which purport to be reports by agents of the FBI of interviews of you?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you read them at that time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Those were marked for identification the other day as follows:

“The interview by Special Agent Lish and Wilson, dated November 26, as Exhibit 5310-A,” consisting of two pages; the interview on November 27, consisting of one page, which was identified as Exhibit 5310-B; the interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page was identified as Exhibit 5310-C; and another interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page and which is identified as Exhibit 5310-D; the interview of December 13, 1963, consisting of one page and was identified as Exhibit 5310-E; the exhibit of December 19, 1963, was identified as Exhibit 5310-F; and exhibit dated January 22, 1964, was identified as Exhibit 5310-G, and it consists of four pages.

I have signed my name on the margin of the first page and my initials at the right-hand bottom of all the other pages.

I think you have read these various exhibits carefully the other day, did you not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, if my recollection serves me right, it took you about an hour or so, did it not, to do so; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to look them over again?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m going to ask you a question, and if you do wish to look them over again, in the light of my question, please say so, because you will be allowed to do so?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to know is whether or not these various Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G are fair reports and correct reports of the interviews with the various agents of the FBI on the dates dated?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything that was incorrect?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--not in this, but in the statement that I made day before yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mean that when you say something was incorrect--you mean you said something was incorrect the other day?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll get to that in a moment, but before we do, let’s dispose of these Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G.

As far as you know, and you have read them, there is nothing in those exhibits that is incorrect?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It represents the truth as you know it and as you told it to the FBI agents?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that there was something that was incorrect the other day that you said while in the course of your deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what that was, please, sir?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you asked me what time did I leave the club on Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I said 8 o’clock and in the report here it says 9, and after I read the report, I remembered that it was 9 o’clock when I left the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the correction you want to make, then, is not in the FBI report but in your own testimony?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your memory has now been refreshed by the report and you actually recollect that your time of departure from the club on Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was 9 o’clock rather than 8 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Everything was right but the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything you said there was right except the time?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Except the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And you wish to correct your previous testimony insofar as you stated that you left at 8 o’clock, so that the record will show that in fact you left at 9 o’clock on Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. November 23?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me the reason you wish to make that correction is because of what?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because I remember that after reading the statement that it was 9 o’clock when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you have an independent recollection of having left at 9 o’clock instead of 8 o’clock, or are you simply relying upon what the FBI record shows you must have told them?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; it just brought back to my memory that it was originally set at 8 o’clock that I was going to leave. Then, before Jack left, he said, “Why don’t you make it 9” and I didn’t want to, but I said, “Okay,” and that’s when we got in the argument over the telephone and he wanted me to stay on until 10.

Mr. HUBERT. And at that time I thought you said you went ahead and left anyhow at 8 o’clock?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, 1 did, but I went ahead and left anyway at 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were in error the other day when you said that after the argument with Jack you went ahead and left at 8, the time you had agreed upon anyhow?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted you to stay until 10?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had agreed to stay until 8?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually stayed until 9; is that correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, have you ever been interviewed before you met me by any member of the President’s Commission?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you have testified before me for a whole day now, almost a half clay, and necessarily there have been some conversations between us that have not been on the record, not purposely so, but simply at recess time.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, even including everything that has occurred, all conversations between us at recess time or going down the elevator or one thing or another, is there anything that we discussed at those recess times which you can remember has not been brought up and recorded in this deposition?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, we haven’t discussed anything concerning the business that we was discussing on the record.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean we might have discussed things unrelated to this inquiry?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I’ll just put it this way--I don’t think we have discussed anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have any recollection of anything at all that we have discussed?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And in any case, if we might have discussed anything, it has been brought out on this record?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that anyone who would read your deposition of the other day and today and would read the FBI reports as to what you told them, which you have said are correct, would have a true and correct version of all that you know about the matter we have been talking about?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that is not contained in either your deposition or the statements that you have made to the FBI?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, Mr. Armstrong?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, we certainly do thank you.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA CHEEK

The testimony of Mrs. Bertha Cheek was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel’s office of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what our purpose is and so forth, Mrs. Cheek, before we actually get into the taking of the testimony.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission has been given authority to take testimony and to promulgate rules and regulations and so forth. Under these rules and regulations, I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your testimony. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might tell you that under--I don’t know when you received this letter, but under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have 3 days’ written notice, a letter from us 3 days before you appear here to testify, and I presume that the letter arrived in time so that you have had that notice?

Mrs. CHEEK. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. Now, also the Commission’s rules provide that if you would like an attorney, that you may be accompanied here by an attorney, and I notice that you don’t have one.

I did want to acquaint you with this fact, and I presume that since you don’t have one, that you felt you didn’t need one. But if you do feel you would like a personal attorney, and many of the people who appear do have an attorney, that is perfectly proper, and in fact it is encouraged by the Commission. But I take it by your presence without an attorney, that you don’t feel you want one at the present time.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think that I would need one. I don’t know anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am not suggesting that you would, but I wanted you to be acquainted.

Mrs. CHEEK. I am not going to tell anything that is not the truth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say this to you, that the Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating and evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson about the assassination of President Kennedy, and about the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are interested in finding out from you, in particular, anything you might know in connection with any one of these events.

Of course you have been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation so that that is somewhat of a starting point for us. I have had a chance to read over the reports and I know generally what they have talked to you about. I will ask you if you have any questions of us before I ask you to be sworn, and then we can start the deposition.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t have any questions. You just ask me, and I will answer whatever I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your name.

Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is Mrs. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your husband’s name?

Mrs. CHEEK. I am divorced. Lloyd Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been divorced from Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Approximately 1955 or approximately 1956, I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask this question of a lady, but when were you born?

Mrs. CHEEK. February 9, 1920.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The address you gave us is in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5901 Hillcrest, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. About 16 or 17 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live before you lived in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. I was born in Troup, Tex., and I was raised in Tyler, and I moved to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now since you have lived in Dallas, have you met Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. I met him on two occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack?

Mrs. CHEEK. He called me to invest in a nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Oh, sometime in November, the latter part of November, I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time?

Mrs. CHEEK. The first time I don’t remember. Just what year it might have been, could have been 1957 or 1958, I don’t know. Whenever he was over here in the Carousel, and he was trying to sell half of it, and I talked to him about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He owned the Carousel at the time he called you the first time?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want to sell you half of the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you invested in any nightclubs before?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; but I am in the real estate business, and I invest in properties all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How long have you been in the real estate business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Seventeen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a broker’s license?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of your business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Bertha Cheek. I just go by my own name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain an office any place?

Mrs. CHEEK. In my home. I usually sell my own property. Buy and sell. I handle other people’s property at times, but very seldom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of real estate do you handle?

Mrs. CHEEK. Residential real estate, apartments, and houses and lots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many homes or pieces of real estate have you sold outside of your own real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of estimate how many that would be?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really couldn’t give you an estimate because I don’t know. It’s been very little.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10 pieces of real estate other than your own?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; not that many.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you own the address that you are presently living in?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a rooming house that you are in?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I have a couple of rooms rented to SMU students.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived at your present address?

Mrs. CHEEK. I moved there in January. Bought it in August.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And prior to January--is that of this year, January 1964?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live prior to January 1964?

Mrs. CHEEK. Swiss. 3914 Swiss. I have a 10-unit there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still own that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you own that particular residence? How long have you owned that particular residence on Swiss Avenue?

Mrs. CHEEK. Three or four years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the 3 or 4 years that you have owned that particular residence, have you owned any other pieces of property?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you rent out rooms?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us what those were?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5430 Gaston; 5310 Gaston; 5212 Gaston; 5302 Gaston; 591--wait just a minute--5917 Gaston; the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you live prior to living at the Swiss Avenue address?

Mrs. CHEEK. At the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments, Gaston Avenue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were living in 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5302 Gaston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now in 1958, what pieces of real estate did you own other than 5308, the one you just mentioned?

Mrs. CHEEK. 5302.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What pieces of real estate did you own in 1958, other than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I would have to go back. I have owned quite a bit of property.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you maintain a set of records as to the property?

Mrs. CHEEK. That I own at the present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you have owned over the years?

Mrs. CHEEK. On the courthouse records, just to go down and check.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about rental records for those places that you have rented out rooms and suites, do you maintain records for those?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do your records go?

Mrs. CHEEK. I have them back to 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We haven’t asked you to bring any records.

Mrs. CHEEK. Not down here, I couldn’t bring them all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if----

Mrs. CHEEK. The man went through those records at the house. I let them go all through whatever they wanted to when they came out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And I told them what connection I had in connection with Jack Ruby. He asked me to put $6,000 in a nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering if I could ask you if you will make those records available again?

I think what I would like to do is ask one of the Secret Service agents to go out there and either make some arrangements to photocopy them and then return them to you, or else if it would be more convenient to let me look at them for some short period of time, and then return them to you. I think I would prefer to photocopy them, unless they are voluminous and it would be prohibitive. I think I would only be going back to January 1959.

Mrs. CHEEK. Those two men went through everything I had and looked at it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you object if I----

Mrs. CHEEK. It is just an awful lot of trouble for me right now because I am very busy and I have illness in my home. If I thought I could help you, and really if there is anything there, I would bring them down myself to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to do this in a way that would be least inconvenient.

Mrs. CHEEK. But I don’t know Oswald and I just knew Jack Ruby when he asked me to invest $6,000 and I didn’t do it. I didn’t like the way he wanted me to invest. He wanted to put in $1,000, and me $6,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be the least inconvenient way to do this? If perhaps all the books are in one place, we could get the books from January 1, 1959, on to the present and photocopy them in a day and then return them to you. Would that be convenient?

Mrs. CHEEK. I have them stored, is the only thing. I have a lot of things in front, and it is difficult in digging it out, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose really--is there going to be anytime in the next week or so that would be more convenient for you than any other time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know of anything else. My daughter has cancer. She may be well and she may not be, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Would you retain these records, and sometime during the next month, let me ask one of the agents to contact you again in connection with getting copies of them for us, and you could work out at that time what would be most convenient to you. If you don’t like it that way, then suggest it some other way, because I want to do this some way that would be least inconvenient to you.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, you are welcome to come to see them again as far as that is concerned, but I don’t want to let them go out of my hands. I am not going to let them go from me, because if some of those things are missing, it is my fault. The men can come out there any time and look them over if they want to look them over and take pictures or whatever they may want to do, or copy them all off. They can come out there and just copy every name that I have ever had or ever rented to from the time of 1947, if they would like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If this were done at your home, that would be the best so far as you are concerned?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I will have to go get them. I never have moved them from Swiss Avenue, and they are in the storage house. I will have to go over and get them and bring them over to Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different boxes are we talking about?

Mrs. CHEEK. Everything I have ever owned, I guess is what I was going to give you. That is what I did before. Every record I have, every name that I ever rented to, I give it to the men that was out there and you may have them now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure we don’t want to go back that far. Well, let me see what we can work out, with the Secret Service or the Bureau, and then I will either contact you myself about it or I will ask someone of the agents to do it, and I think it could be done fairly simply. I know in the past that photographers can set the camera on a kitchen table and run these things through. I take it then when Jack Ruby contacted you in connection with buying out a part of the Carousel Club, that he got your name from somebody?

Mrs. CHEEK. I was looking at a piece of property over on Maple Avenue when Olen Alexander or Bob Shockley, two more agents called me about buying the place myself. I went over to look at the building and they asked me what would go in the building, and I think a nice nightclub, it is in the neighborhood like it would, so I guess they gave it to Jack Ruby because when I mentioned the nightclub, because I said I might even invest in it myself, I was so sold on it, so Jack Ruby called me and asked me if I would invest in it. Not this particular piece of property. He didn’t tell me where he had this location, but I just know that that was how he got my name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are we talking about your most recent discussion with Jack or the first one?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about the first time you contacted Jack.

Mrs. CHEEK. He had it for sale.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the Carousel for sale?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; and I had someone that was interested in a night club, so I went down to see about it, see how much he would sell it for, and he said $12,500. I said that was too much. My conversation was very short, and I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, you met him at the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with him at that time? Anybody else at this meeting?

Mrs. CHEEK. There was activity all in there. I don’t know who the people were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody accompany you in connection with this?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I think Mrs. Davidson went down with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Davidson? What is her first name?

Mrs. CHEEK. Lula B. Davidson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live here in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. CHEEK. Over on Normandy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she in the real estate business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. She was a schoolteacher of mine. Just happened to be at the house when I started to go down, and I asked her if she would like to go. She taught me in school in Tyler, Tex. I don’t think that she would remember too much about it, because it was such a--just went down with me. It wasn’t a real big issue made, and I said, “Would you like to go with me to see about a nightclub,” and she said, “Yes; I would.” So I just walked up and talked to Jack Ruby and asked him how much he wanted for the club’s half interest, and he said $12,500, and I left because I didn’t think it was worth it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had an advertisement in the newspaper about this?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first called Jack, what did he tell you when you talked to him over the telephone that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember the exact words. I usually tell people when I contact them about business, I would like to meet them in their office or in their place of business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make an appointment and go down? You didn’t talk to him about what he wanted or what kind of property he had over the telephone?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; didn’t make any discussion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack’s ad indicate he was selling the full interest, or half interest?

Mrs. CHEEK. Half, and he wanted a partner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been a partner?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I wouldn’t. When I invest, I make a corporation out of it, or someone else operates the business for me. That is the way the rooming houses; I have managers in them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about how much he was making off of this business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. He might have talked to me about that, but I don’t remember the exact figures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to the conclusion that his price was too high?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just thought it was too high. I could build a club for that. I know the prices of material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was only interested in selling an interest in the real estate at that time, or was he interested in the----

Mrs. CHEEK. The business. He didn’t have the real estate. He didn’t have the building. It was just the business he was selling half interest in it. I could buy a place for that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have been interested in the profitability of Jack’s particular business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; not his particular business. I didn’t know what kind of club he was operating out there. I thought it was a dance place and cocktail lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order to determine whether the twelve thousand price was too high and you weren’t going to get any real estate out of it, you were going to share in the profits from the club, you would have to know something about how much money he was making off the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember how much he was making.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did talk to him; didn’t you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; I talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He said he wanted $12,500 for half of the business?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t look at the books. I didn’t even go into that because I didn’t want to put $12,500 into that kind of club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk to him on this occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him for 3 hours?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just don’t know how long I talked to him the first time, because it’s been so long ago. But the last time I stayed down there, I think, an hour or so or 3. It might have been 3 hours or 2 hours, because he brought in this other fellow named Frank, his interior decorator, or that decorated the club, and I talked to him, and he was telling me what a nice fellow he was, because I didn’t know Jack Ruby very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Frank’s name Frank Fisher? Do you remember that name?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t know. He just kept referring to him as Frank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether this fellow was in business for himself or whether he worked with somebody, this Frank fellow?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear the name of whom he might have been employed by?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now as I understand it, Jack at this particular time got your name through somebody, a fellow by the name of Alexander, or another fellow that you talked to in connection with buying a club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Olen Alexander.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know that to be the truth, but I just thought that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the club that you were looking at?

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t a club. It was a building that they were showing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?

Mrs. CHEEK. On Maple.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had an interest in any nightclub or dancehall?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day or night was it that you met with Jack this last occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. 2 o’clock in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the afternoon?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was at the Carousel?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; in his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack called you, what did he say to you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Said he had a business deal that he wanted to talk over with me. I said, “What kind is it?”

And he said, “A club.” And asked me to come down to talk to him about it, and I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate at the time he called you how much money he wanted you to invest?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you got down there to talk to him, what did he say and what did you say? Try to recall as best you can how this conversation was.

Mrs. CHEEK. He said he had a location for a club and he wanted me to put in $6,000 and he’d put $1,000 and he would use his talent and ability to operate a club, and he knew really how to run one and operate one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what sort of return he expected?

Mrs. CHEEK. Fifty-fifty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Each would have a half interest in the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate how much of a return you would make for your $6,000?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; he didn’t. He couldn’t even tell me the location of the place, because I asked him that, kept questioning him about where is the location, and he didn’t want to tell me that. And I asked him why, and he said, “Well, he just couldn’t tell me right then.” And I said, “Is it because you think I might go around and sell this place or try to buy it myself?” And he said, “Yes, that is the reason.”

He said, “How would you do about anything like that?” And I said, “Well, you tie it up. Put some money up on it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it sound like Jack was interested in buying a piece of real estate, or was he going to get a lease and operate in a leased building, or what?

Mrs. CHEEK. He didn’t go into that. He just kept talking about how he could operate a club, how much money could be made, you know, and he introduced me to this other fellow and talked about what a good interior decorator he was and how he would decorate the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did the interior decorator say?

Mrs. CHEEK. Then the man was telling me what a good operator he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about his experience in other places he decorated?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; one or two places; but I really didn’t pay any attention to what locations. I was just listening to Mr. Ruby on what his deal was on the investment I was supposed to make, and whether or not I would like it or not, and I told him I could manage a business, too. And I said, “I don’t think that I would want to go in with anyone and put $6,000 and you put $1,000. You would have to come fifty-fifty.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate was his response?

Mrs. CHEEK. He said he couldn’t do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from his response whether he meant that he didn’t want to do it or that he couldn’t afford to do it, or what he meant by that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he did say he didn’t have the money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he didn’t have the money?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now had you inquired about Jack Ruby from other people?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean now you only met him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had heard people talk about Jack Ruby, but I didn’t inquire about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it other people that you know had told you things about Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. I have heard people talk about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard about Jack prior to the time you went to talk to him about this club where he wouldn’t tell you where it was located?

Mrs. CHEEK. I haven’t heard anything except he ran the Carousel Club and was a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had heard what kind of businessman he was? How well he ran his business?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard whether he was honest or dishonest?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you heard?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just knew he run a club and I heard people say that he was a good operator, and I figured if he was a good operator and made money, he must have been a good businessman. You don’t make money unless you are a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who it was that told you Jack was a good operator?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t recall right off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you had the impression that Jack was able to make money off of his operations?

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do any of your friends or acquaintances or tenants know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all who it might have been that had known Jack well enough to tell you that he was running his business well?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was a policeman that had rented from me that I had talked to occasionally and said something about Jack Ruby’s place. I don’t know just who it was that told me, and their name. I would be talking to someone sometime, and I can’t remember their names to save my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the policeman?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had a number of policemen rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think Mr. Olson said something--I am not sure of the name--on the police force. I wouldn’t like to say anything else unless I know for sure I can give the exact name and address. I just heard this conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mrs. CHEEK. See.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the police officer whose name might have been Olson, when did he rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. Beachcomber in 1961 or 1960, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he continue to rent from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think he rented there very long, 3 or 4 months. But this was after. Let’s see, no, it wasn’t after. That was after the first time I had met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, other than Mr. Olson, you don’t know of anybody else of your acquaintances or tenants who knew Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. You know, his name has been in the paper and his advertising; and I am sure a lot of people had heard about him and go to the club, but I had never gone to the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did your husband know Jack Ruby? Mr. Cheek, did he know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don’t know whether he did or not. He may know Jack Ruby because he is a National Cash Register man downtown that fixes all of the cash registers. He might have gone up and worked on a cash register. I really don’t know. I haven’t asked him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you sometime ago. I believe you indicated that you had some recollection that some Cubans had rented from you back in 1959, two Cubans had rented from you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know just exactly what was said on that, whether they got that off of the books or whether my sister had told them about it, that rented to Oswald over on Beckley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts or Miss Roberts--Mrs. Roberts--

Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss?

Mrs. CHEEK. Mrs. Roberts. I don’t know whether she told me about that or if they got it off the book, or whether I had rented to a Cuban. I think one or two, and also Dr. Florescent of the Philippine Islands.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what recollection you have of the Cubans that you rented to.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember them because I had managers in there. I wouldn’t know them personally myself at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you, Mrs. Cheek, a document which consists of 3 pages, and it purports to be an interview report prepared by two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Barry and Mr. Kelley. This is supposed to have been a copy of a report of interview which they had with you on November 27, 1963. Maybe if you will look this over, you may recall it is reported in here that at that time--I will read it:

“That she recalled having rented to two Cuban males, in 1959 or 1960, but could provide no other information concerning them.” Why don’t you take your time and read that whole thing over, because I am interested in finding out whether the whole report is an accurate report of that interview.

Mrs. CHEEK. I owned this boarding house at 5212 Gaston since 1948 to about 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does it say?

Mrs. CHEEK. It says 1956 to 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to take Miss Laidrich’s pen and make a change there to reflect the period that you actually owned that boarding house, the actual period?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Makes correction.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you sold it in 1961?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think that is about the date that I sold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to initial that change there that you made and put a date by it?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Initials and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is 4-14-64. Why don’t you go ahead and take your time to read it through and make any other corrections.

Mrs. CHEEK. I have got to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek has indicated that her daughter is in the hospital and she told me earlier, and would like to recess this. Perhaps we can set another time to continue it.

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I was only going to be here about 15 minutes, and I was supposed to talk to the doctor about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to keep you then. How would Thursday be? Would you be able to come back at any time on Thursday?

Mrs. CHEEK. Could I give you any other kind of information on my records or what else do you want me to tell you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, if you could bring with you----

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t bring all those records down here. They are welcome to go out to the house and make a copy of every name I ever rented to, but I can’t bring them all down here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, suppose we handle it this way.

Mrs. CHEEK. They were welcome that day I gave them every record I had, and I told them they could copy all the names down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose we contact one of the agents and have somebody photograph these records, and then perhaps next Monday, why we could resume the deposition and I could look through the records with you here and the copies that we have photographed?

Mrs. CHEEK. Do I have to come back?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, because I would like to talk to you about the statements and get any changes that you care to make in the statements, and complete the topic we are talking about here.

I hate to inconvenience you like this.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, if I could do you any good, I would be happy to, but I don’t know how I could, because I don’t know Jack Ruby or Oswald very well. In fact, I didn’t know Oswald at all, and I didn’t know Ruby well enough to help you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, any little bit that we can learn can be helpful to us. But I would like to set it up in a way that wouldn’t interfere with your problems at home. I think they are substantial. Why don’t you name the day and the time.

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t name the date and the time. I don’t know. I didn’t expect my daughter to be ill when she was. I only thought she was going to the hospital two days.

I work in real estate. I don’t know when I have appointments, and I am trying to sell the place on Hillcrest. I have an appointment this afternoon with the minister out there or one of the men of the church, not the minister, but to try to sell Hillcrest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the mornings, I take it, are better for you than the afternoons? Why don’t we make it Monday morning. If 9 o’clock, isn’t too early for you, we will start at 9.

Mrs. CHEEK. How much longer do you think it would take on this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think it would take more than a half hour, but sometimes it takes time to have you sit here and read through these statements and point out any corrections or changes or additions that you would have to make, and it could take half an hour to an hour, especially if we get these photographs of the records.

Then we can clarify these on these records. Do you remember which apartment it was that the Cubans lived in?

Mrs. CHEEK. That was 5212 Gaston. I think the front room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe if we could just get those records copied. Do you remember what year it was that they--you believe it was 1959 or 1960, when you went through those records with the agents? Were you able to pinpoint those to Cubans who you had there?

Mrs. CHEEK. No. I don’t think so. They were looking at the names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So I suppose it would be best if we just got the records since, say, January 1, 1958 to make sure we cover everything, and that would be 1958 through 1961.

Mrs. CHEEK. I think so. That is when I sold the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, up until the sale. Now, do you recall if these two men ever came back and lived in any other place that you owned?

Mrs. CHEEK. I wouldn’t know, because I told you I had managers in my apartment houses and my rooming houses. They did the renting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. CHEEK. Sometimes I rented to people, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. If we started with January 1, 1958 and got all the records up to the present, how many records, how high a stack of records would we be talking about?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know how high.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different apartments would we be talking about since January 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would just have to go back and look, because I buy and sell all the time and trade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as many as 10?

Mrs. CHEEK. Could have been more than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been more than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Not places, but apartments. See, I had a 32-unit in Oak Cliff, and there was 46 in the Beachcomber Apartments. Then there was people that rented on Gaston Avenue, but see, I just traded back and forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different buildings did you own since 1958?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know. You’d just have to go down at the courthouse and look. I would have to figure it out. 3518 Gillespie, I sold it though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe what we should do is take 1958 to 1961, and then simply the year 1963, so that we will take 1958 to 1961, for that Gaston building, and we will take 1963 for all these buildings. How many buildings did you own last year, in 1963?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1963, I think 3914 Swiss. I didn’t own some of these buildings all the year. I bought and sold and traded, so I would just have to go into all of that.

I sold it in August. And then maybe I sold 3518 Gillespie. I think I sold it in November. I don’t remember just the dates that I closed on the property and sell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think that would simplify it because we would like, if we can identify these two particular individuals, and it is possible since they lived with you before, they might have moved back into another one that you own.

Mrs. CHEEK. They went over all those records, those men did out there. Mr. Kelley and Mr. Barry, I thought his name was Barrett. That is what he introduced himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever it is down there, Barry.

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought he said Barrett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barry is what is written there anyhow.

Mrs. CHEEK. (Reads reports of interviews.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Monday morning at 9 or 9:30 be?

Mrs. CHEEK. If you don’t think it would be very much longer, I think I have missed the doctor, because I have been here an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, since we are going to try to get these records, I would almost rather do it with the records, so if there was something with the records, I wouldn’t have to call you again, unless you are willing to take a chance on that.

Mrs. CHEEK. Aren’t they coming out to the house to take the names down?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it would be easier if they went out with a camera and photographed that. All right, would you prefer to complete it?

Mrs. CHEEK. If it wouldn’t take too much longer. I have an appointment at 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It shouldn’t take anywhere near that long.

Mrs. CHEEK. I guess I have missed my appointment with the doctor. I wanted to talk to him about my daughter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to call him?

Mrs. CHEEK. May I call?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mrs. CHEEK. (Makes telephone call.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Cheek, have you had a chance to read over what I have marked as Cheek Exhibit No. 5353? It is a three-page report marked 456, 457 and 458, of Commission’s Document No. 205, which purports to be a report of an interview which FBI Agents Barry and Kelley had with you on November 27.

Have you had a chance to read that over?

Mrs. CHEEK. I thought that I read all of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections or changes?

Mrs. CHEEK. This is all approximate. I wouldn’t know. I couldn’t swear that everything was right down to the figure, but that is the best of my knowledge about everything.

They have $12,000 down there. I thought I remember $12,500 he wanted, but that may have been another piece of property I was thinking about. I don’t remember the exact figure.

Now on the sale, that was what I was talking about. They had $12,000. I told you today I thought $12,500 is what he wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you weren’t able to get a hold of the doctor?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But other than that, you don’t feel that you would make any substantial changes in this? What I am directing myself to is whether this report is an accurate report of what you told them at that time?

I realize that there may have been things that you will recall that you didn’t recall then, but as far as this report being accurate as to what you told them at that time, I take it you are satisfied that it is accurate?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it is. I might remember something there that I don’t remember now. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that you recall having rented to two Cuban males in 1959 and 1960. I understand that these two Cubans were living at 5212 Gaston?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that apartment have a name?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big----

Mrs. CHEEK. It wasn’t an apartment. It was a boarding house; room and board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many rooms did you rent out there?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was about 10 rooms that I rented out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who managed that boarding house?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had different managers throughout the year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, in the period 1959 and 1960, who was managing it for you at that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back on my records. Nineteen what, now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1959 or 1960?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would have to look back, because managers for boarding houses is like waitresses and cooks, they come and go because you don’t pay them very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when your sister, Mrs. Roberts, was working at or managing your boarding houses?

Mrs. CHEEK. Not the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether she was managing any boarding house for you back in 1959 or 1960?

Mrs. CHEEK. She might have been at 5430. You would have to ask her. I believe you would have a more correct answer on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you recall that the two Cubans lived at 5212?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know right now just what brought that up or anything. Now my son was there, I think, while the two FBI men were there, and he might have mentioned it, or my sister might have mentioned it, I don’t remember. There were two Cubans there, I think. They might have been Cuban and they might not have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think they were Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know how they got that they were Cubans, because I don’t know a Cuban from a Spanish or a Spanish from a Mexican. Like Dr. Florescent, when he come in, he was real dark. I wasn’t going to rent because I don’t rent to dark Spanish people or Mexicans or Indians. I always rented to light-colored people my own race. But another color, and he was so well dressed and everything and he insisted--this is in 1948, I think. He came in there from the Philippine Islands. He was going to Baylor Hospital to school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the two Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t really know if I would know they were Cubans or not unless someone told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that it is unusual to have somebody living at your place who is of Spanish or Latin American background?

Mrs. CHEEK. That it would be what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be unusual for you to rent to someone who was Spanish or Latin American or of Cuban background?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, it wouldn’t be unusual, because I had rented to people from Mexico at the Beachcomber, very nice people, when I had short rentals there. They checked in; they were business people; and I had rented to people from, not China, but the Japs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Japanese?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, at the Beachcomber, during the fair. The pearl dealers, I rented to, but on short rentals. And there were just a few that I had a short time at the Beachcomber and I had a set up of maid service and television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When somebody comes in to rent one of the suites, do they contact you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had managers there, and sometimes I would be there at the Beachcomber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given your managers instructions as to the kind of people that they should rent to?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they always know what kind of business they are in or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you describe these two people that you thought might have been Cuban?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember them too well. In fact, I don’t know why they have Cuban down there, because I would have to talk with him again. When they were going over those records----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent----

Mrs. CHEEK. I know there were some people there, either from, they might have been Mexico or Cuban.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they rent the same suite?

Mrs. CHEEK. This is not an apartment. This is 5212 Gaston. This is the rooming house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did each of them have a separate room?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, they both stayed in the same room. In, I think, the front part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the front part of the house?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they stay?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember. Just take my records and look at them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it when you went through these records with the agents, did you see----

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, I probably saw those names and I recognized it by that or something. I don’t remember just exactly how I remembered right at that time, because I was trying to remember everything I could all the way back to try to tell them everything I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, were they fat or thin?

Mrs. CHEEK. They were small, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to be men in their 20’s or 30’s or 40’s or 50’s?

How old would you say they were?

Mrs. CHEEK. The two boys that were in the front room at 5212 Gaston were younger fellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under 25, would you say?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak English?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I guess they speak it very well, enough to get in. I never rented to anyone that couldn’t speak English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they speak with a noticeable accent?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they appear to have a job of any sort?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember. I am just trying to remember all, you know. That is a long time back, and renting to so many people, you don’t pay that much attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you have occasion to talk with them?

Mrs. CHEEK. I never do talk to people unless they talk to me about something about the business, or the room, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These two fellows, do you recall ever talking to them on any occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t remember holding a conversation with them, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that your son was present when the Agents Barry and Kelley interviewed you. Did he have some recollection of these two Cubans?

Mrs. CHEEK. John might have. I think John was there. I believe he was, or Irwin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These are both your sons?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is their last name Cheek or Cheeks?

Mrs. CHEEK. Cheek.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is John?

Mrs. CHEEK. He is 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Irwin?

Mrs. CHEEK. Thirteen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also indicated in your first report that you had been acquainted with Jack Ruby since 1948. What makes you place that date?

Mrs. CHEEK. They asked me--when, 1948?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is what they reported here.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t say 1948. I bought the house in 1948, and it might have been 1956. They have that 1956 down there of me buying 5212 Gaston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t meet Jack Ruby in 1948. 1948 is when I bought 5212. They have the dates mixed up there.

And then 1956 or 1957, I might have went down there to the club, but I don’t think I knew him in 1948, at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This report also indicates that you formerly operated night clubs in Dallas?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I told them that I went down and operated a club, just managed a club for Frank and Virginia Nick on Browder Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of that night club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Pat Morgan had the club at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Club Royal is what Virginia and Frank Nick named it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R-o-y-a-l?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the name of the club when you were employed there?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. February of 1963, I believe it was, this past year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But prior to 1963, had you ever been connected with the night club business in any way?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; nothing, only my husband was a musician. He played nightclubs and I went there with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in Dallas nightclubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a performer or anything?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was he a musician in Dallas? For what period of time?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was a musician before I married him. He just had it as a hobby. He worked at National Cash Register, and played on Friday and Saturday nights to pick up extra money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; you came to Dallas, you said, 18 years ago? 1946?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1947. Were you married to Mr. Cheek at that time?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Cheek?

Mrs. CHEEK. 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, from 1947 to 1955, did Mr. Cheek play these weekend jobs in nightclubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he employed regularly on weekends?

Mrs. CHEEK. He played with Harry Traveler’s Band, and I don’t remember the other names of the bands he played with, but he might have set in on some. You would have to ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever play in any of Jack Ruby’s clubs?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your connection with the night club business prior to 1963, was solely through your husband’s association as a musician and your going to the night clubs with him?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you used to go regularly on the nights that he played?

Mrs. CHEEK. Most every Saturday night or Friday with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated here also that on the last occasion that you saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, that you spent several hours discussing this investment with him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think I put down there two or three hours. About 2 until maybe 4:30, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can’t you give us any more idea about what he had for this club, what kind of club it was going to be? You said you talked with the interior decorator?

Mrs. CHEEK. I let him talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember all they said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can’t you tell us some more about what he said? You were there for a couple of hours. He must have described----

Mrs. CHEEK. He talked to other people while I was there. He would go in and out of the office, and he would indicate to me he was talking long distance and talking to other people that come in his club. And then he would come back and talk some more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make any long distance telephone calls while you were there?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; but I don’t know when he made them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hold these conversations in his office?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was in the office, and then in the club, and then he came a few minutes, and then I came on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your best recollection is, it was from about 2 o’clock in the afternoon until about sometime after 4:00 that afternoon?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to place the time? Anything significant?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think it was; I remember the time I was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a 2 o’clock appointment?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. Around 2:00 or 2:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how many long distance telephone calls he made?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the business enterprises that he had?

Mrs. CHEEK. He told me about other businesses he had and how many he had been in, but I don’t remember exactly. I just listened to him and I wasn’t interested really in putting in $6,000 and him putting in $1,000, and I was just listening to the man talk and getting his ideas on a lot of things that he had in mind for clubs that he was talking about, and I didn’t I wasn’t really interested in what he did in the past or what clubs he was connected with. That is why I don’t remember, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated that you thought at first when you saw Lee Harvey Oswald’s photograph on television, that you might have rented to him. What made you think that?

Mrs. CHEEK. I noticed a lot of people you can walk down the street or be introduced to a person and think I have met them before. Well, I was trying to remember back if I had ever seen the man before in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you think you might have seen him?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t know. Just like have you ever, you know, met a person and thought you had seen them before?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, that is the way I thought I was trying to remember where I had seen him before, and probably I had seen him so many times on TV that day until I thought maybe I had rented to him, and I thought if I had, I would look it up and turn it in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Where were you when you first heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. CHEEK. In my apartment at 3914 Swiss, Apartment 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do that day?

Mrs. CHEEK. What did I do that day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ma’am.

Mrs. CHEEK. I was waiting for the plumber to fix some plumbing there at the apartment house. That is where I was living. I don’t remember all the things I did that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there all day and watch TV all day?

Mrs. CHEEK. I just turned it on when the plumber wanted--he said the President is in the city and he said, “Let’s look at TV a little,” he said, “I haven’t listened to any of the news.”

So his name is Louis Zmolik and I turned on the TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to watch television the rest of the day, or did you go back to your business?

Mrs. CHEEK. Watched it off and on. I was answering the phone, talking on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were business calls that you had or social calls, or talking with people about the assassination, or what?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, they might have been business calls, some of them and some I was talking about how terrible it was the President had been killed, what an awful thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister call you that day?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t think she did. I didn’t learn that, I think, until someone else called me to watch TV, that she had been on TV. I didn’t see her on TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your sister appear? Was she interviewed on Television?

Mrs. CHEEK. Someone said that she was, and my sister in Tyler said she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see her interviewed on TV?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What day was that? Was that on Friday, the day the President was killed, or was it on Saturday?

Mrs. CHEEK. The President, I think, was killed wasn’t he, on the 22d of November, Washington’s Birthday? I remembered that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 22d of February is Washington’s birthday.

Mrs. CHEEK. I mean November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Friday, the 22d.

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the day that Mrs. Roberts appeared on television, or was it a later date?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know. I never did see her on TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day on Saturday?

Mrs. CHEEK. I got the newspaper and saw the next morning, I think, where her picture was in the paper, but I didn’t talk to her until--yes, she called me, my sister called me on Swiss Avenue. I have a sister living on Swiss. She called me and told me, I think, that Earlene was on TV, and we talked the next morning about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, do you recall what you did on Saturday the 23d?

Mrs. CHEEK. Sure can’t, not right off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend all day watching television?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I didn’t spend all day watching TV. I just happened to turn on the TV because Mr. Zmolik asked me to turn on the TV that day. I don’t know what I was doing. I was probably cleaning the house, because I didn’t have a maid.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you were probably in and out?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; cleaning the apartment, and sometimes I even cleaned the apartments myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sunday morning, the 24th, do you recall what you were doing the morning of the 24th?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was you first learned that Jack Ruby had shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked “Dallas, Texas, 4-14-64, Bertha Cheek, Exhibit 5354.”

This consists of two pages of an interview report which is marked Commission’s Document 86, Page 132, and 80, Page 133.

It is a copy of a report made by Special Agent David Barry of the FBI, with you, Mrs. Cheek, on December 9, 1963.

I want you to read that over and I will ask you the same questions with respect to that as I asked with the previous report. That is, would you make any additions or corrections on that?

If you felt that that is an accurate report of the interview you had with Agent Barry?

Mrs. CHEEK. I had bought and sold in the nightclubs, no. I didn’t say that. I didn’t mean to give them the impression, if they got that impression, that I had bought and sold nightclubs. No. I told them about Maple Avenue, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see what portion of the report you are referring to.

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember buying and selling nightclubs, but I would, if I could make any money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This report says on Page 132; “Mrs. Cheek stated that she has been in the real estate business in Dallas, Texas, for a number of years.”

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “That she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs; that during the past several months she has been attempting to locate a good nightclub investment; and that in this connection she had visited practically every nightclub in Dallas which she considered might be purchased outright or in which an interest might be obtained.”

Mrs. CHEEK. I was interested in buying one, but I hadn’t bought and sold them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the only change you would make in the paragraph was to strike out that clause which reads, “that she frequently has bought and sold interests in nightclubs”?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this pen and put a line through that and initial it?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you go ahead and continue to read it and tell us if there are any other changes that you would make?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading report.]

Mr. Martin knows Jack Ruby. That name right there, that man might have told Jack Ruby that I was interested in a club. He knows him real well and says Mrs. Grant is his friend, and Jack Ruby, that is the time that I made the appointment to see him about the club.

Well, he said that he had had dinner with Jack Ruby. We were talking about the club over on Oak Lawn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. And he said Jack Ruby was a good friend of his. And he told me about Jack Ruby. That is where I got my information, I remember now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with him about Ruby. When was your conversation with Martin about Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was just telling me about a good operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. CHEEK. And how he made money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you saw Ruby in November?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just before I went down to the club, you know, and met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He said something to you also about Mrs. Grant, Eva Grant?

Mrs. CHEEK. Mr. Martin. He said both were good friends of him, and said Mrs. Grant operated the club on Oak Lawn for Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else he told you?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember all the conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call this Mr. Martin that said he had dinner with Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes; he was a real good friend of his and a real nice fellow, and Mr. Martin said he was in the oil business and he was just kind of playing with that club over there because he liked the nightclub business, and he wanted $25,000 for half interest in it, and I thought it was too much money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Martin?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just looking for clubs, and I saw Mr. Martin’s. I found out who owned the club. I don’t remember just how I found out who owned a place. Sometimes I might go down to the records, if they buy the land, and look to see who owns it. Then I contact them like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now didn’t you plan to manage this club yourself? Any club that you would buy, didn’t you plan on managing it yourself?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know whether I would or not, or whether I would have someone else to manage it for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a return did you expect on your investment?

Mrs. CHEEK. I wasn’t thinking about that at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have some idea.

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t know how much I would invest. I didn’t have very much money to invest. I would have to trade a piece of property or sell a piece. I was looking for clubs or property. If you are talking to people you run into a good bit--buying 5212 Gaston, I put down $600 down, but I paid high payments. I don’t know how much I would invest. I don’t have a whole lot of money. I put small payments down and make high payments a month, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, but you want to make sure you are getting more money off your real estate or business investments?

Mrs. CHEEK. When I came to Dallas, I didn’t have very much money. I started managing a place for Mrs. Strong out on Gaston Avenue, and I managed it for her, and she sold me the place for $600 earnest money down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the money that you acquired, you use for buying and selling real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. Buying and selling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you obtain any money from your husband?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; we worked together those years. He didn’t take anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But all the money which was accumulated by you was accumulated through your own efforts?

Mrs. CHEEK. And other people working for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you think about investing money, you decide whether you are going to put that money into some business or whether you are going to leave it in a bank and draw three or four percent interest, don’t you? Don’t you have any idea?

Mrs. CHEEK. I never have enough to leave in the bank to draw interest. I either have it invested or going to invest it, what little I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you ever figure this out in terms of percentage you get or you expect to get on the money that you put up?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; I haven’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you decide whether it is going to be a good investment for you or not? Whether it is the kind of investment that you want?

Mrs. CHEEK. I really don’t know. I just trade and sell. That is all I do. I guess I should figure more. Maybe that is why I lost all I did in the Beachcomber, because I just traded that today. I trade 5212 and 5302 for the Beachcomber and the Holiday Apartments on a contract to sell, and probably had I gotten a paper and pencil and had an attorney, I wouldn’t have done that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything else as you read through that, that you want to change?

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading.] You know, you talk to people about investments like Jack Ruby, but I have talked to a number of people. You may not just have an idea that you would invest, if you would make some money. I had no idea that I would. This is nothing permanent about this at all. I was just talking to the people, just went down and talked to him just like I talked to Bill Martin. Bill Martin could have killed President Kennedy and it would have been the same thing when I talked to him if he did it.

I was so surprised when I heard that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and all this happened, it just floored me. I thought it was the awfulest thing I had ever heard of. I didn’t figure that man doing such a thing, after talking to him down there. He didn’t seem like a criminal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man did he seem like?

Mrs. CHEEK. He seemed like a, well, he was kind of a nervous person, but you wouldn’t have thought that he would murder anyone. He just walked around, you know, but I am a nervous person myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he able to keep the conversation going in the same general direction? Was he flighty?

Mrs. CHEEK. Kind of flighty; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he act?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, he didn’t know his location. And I told him it seemed to me that it was funny why he would try to get $6,000 out of me, not knowing, I wouldn’t know the location, I wouldn’t know anything about the business or anything.

He couldn’t tell me anything about that, and I didn’t understand why he would call me down and try to convince me he was a good man and talking for this Frank, too, and not having the location, couldn’t show me what I was buying. And I told him I usually see the things that I buy or know something about it. I don’t buy anything unless I can see it and look at it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the idea that this Frank was----

Mrs. CHEEK. He is an older fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man did he appear to be?

Mrs. CHEEK. I would say he was up around 66 years old. He was gray-headed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall was he?

Mrs. CHEEK. He was a little taller than I was. About five seven, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not a tall man?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his weight? Appear to be heavy?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t remember how much the man weighed, about 165 or 160, maybe not that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a fat man?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Medium-built, would you say, or skinny?

Mrs. CHEEK. He wasn’t skinny, I don’t think. I didn’t look at the man really that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he wore glasses?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t know whether he did or not. I don’t think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn anything about where he lived?

Mrs. CHEEK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby indicate that somebody else besides Fisher and he were interested in this new nightclub?

Mrs. CHEEK. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Frank, whatever his name is?

Mrs. CHEEK. I didn’t understand that Frank was going in on it. He was going to decorate it for Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate there was somebody else interested besides him?

Mrs. CHEEK. Just himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must have been quite annoyed with him when he wouldn’t tell you where it would be and wouldn’t give you the details?

Mrs. CHEEK. Well, I just told him I couldn’t make an investment that I didn’t know about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he describe how big it was going to be? How many seats?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, he didn’t. He might have, but I don’t remember the exact seating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you can’t tell us anything that you recall about that conversation other than what you have told us so far?

Mrs. CHEEK. That is all I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, have you read through this interview report?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t have glasses, and I can’t see too well today. I don’t have my glasses with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would you like me to read it out?

Mrs. CHEEK. You can read it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you read the first paragraph?

Mrs. CHEEK. I think I read pretty well through everything, because I can hold it off and read it pretty good. I was holding it. I can see if I hold it far away. If you want, you can read it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t I start to read at the last paragraph on page 132 of Commission Document 86. It reads: “At Ruby’s invitation, Mrs. Cheek said she did discuss such investment with Ruby at the Carousel. Ruby proposed her investment of $6,000 in a club, the identity or location of which he would not disclose, apparently Mrs. Cheek said to preclude her going around him on the deal.”

“Mrs. Cheek said she would not consider the investment of $6,000 without full disclosure and had suggested to Ruby that he get an option on the business so that he might discuss the proposal openly. This concluded the discussion of such investment by Mrs. Cheek with Jack Ruby.”

Let me ask you at this point, was your understanding that this was a going business that he was going to buy?

Mrs. CHEEK. No, it was the location that he was going to buy and then put the club in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it really means that he should get an option on the real estate?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes. That is what I told him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “Throughout these discussions at the Carousel, Mrs. Cheek stated that Ruby was assisted by one Frank, whose last name Mrs. Cheek did not recall.

“She described Frank as a man of Jewish extraction about 60 years of age with gray hair. Frank was present, she said, apparently to provide Ruby with a good recommendation as a nightclub operator as this was the extent of his participation in the discussion.”

You would amplify that to say that Frank also talked about how Frank was going to decorate the place?

Mrs. CHEEK. He didn’t tell that he was going to decorate this place. He talked about how he decorated the other place and how nice a job he did. And he spoke of how, what a good operator Ruby was in the nightclub business and how he could make money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the last sentence is:

“Mrs. Cheek was unable to provide any additional information of pertinence concerning Jack Ruby.”

Well, I take it that you have no additions or corrections to make to what I have just read you?

Mrs. CHEEK. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I want to thank you for spending all this time, and I realize that this has been a sacrifice for you to come down here, and we will try to make arrangements to make photo copies of a few of the records that you have.

Mrs. CHEEK. You are welcome to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again I say you are very kind to give us your time, and I would ask you a couple of questions in conclusion.

One, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission Staff prior to appearing here today?

Mrs. CHEEK. Those FBI men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By other than that?

Mrs. CHEEK. Barry and Mr. Kelley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But nobody that identified himself as a member of the Commission’s staff, as opposed to an FBI agent or Secret Service agent? You haven’t been other than these two interview reports that I have showed you? Have you been interviewed by anybody on any occasion?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think so, unless when the police and the FBI or anyone comes to my house about any of the rents or anyone, I always talk to them, and now I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, before I----

Mrs. CHEEK. I give them all the information I can give them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I sat down here with you in the room this afternoon, did I interview you at all?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I did meet you out in the hallway?

Mrs. CHEEK. Yes, sir; I met you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I didn’t ask you any questions?

Mrs. CHEEK. No; you didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I will ask you this, too. Do you have any information that you consider to be of any importance in connection with what this Commission is doing, that you haven’t provided us so far?

Mrs. CHEEK. I don’t think I have any information at all that I could give you. If I had, I had already called someone and told you about it. If I had ever talked to anyone or anyone mentioned anything about this, I just, like my sister, if she got a letter through the mail, I said, “You call the FBI immediately and turn it in.” “Turn everything in.”

She would get letters through the mail from different people and the people would be coming out interviewing, and I said, “Call immediately and tell them.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything comes to your attention

Mrs. CHEEK. I will call you and tell you, surely. I will try to be as helpful as I can be, because I don’t understand it, like everyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We certainly appreciate that, and we are trying to get as much as we can.

Mrs. CHEEK. I can’t feature Ruby killing Oswald, and I can’t feature the President being killed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you are not the only one.

Mrs. CHEEK. It shocked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again, I want to thank you for coming down here. It has been a pleasure to meet you.

Mrs. CHEEK. It is a pleasure meeting you.

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.

The general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.

Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.

When was this subpena served upon you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Last Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that would have been the 4th.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The 4th of April.

Would you rise and be sworn, please?

Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAFARD. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. CRAFARD. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?

Mr. CRAFARD. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. CRAFARD. 23.

Mr. HUBERT. When precisely were you born?

Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, 1941.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time I am unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.

Mr. CRAFARD. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. No objection whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Unless it is of some use to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don’t want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don’t want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they still living?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?

Mr. CRAFARD. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any brothers or sisters?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Edward D. Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he married?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he have children?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have any other address for him than that which you have given us?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what organization in the Army?

Mr. CRAFARD. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft.

I have three sisters.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?

Mr. CRAFARD. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom?

Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted].

Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is residing in Clare, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?

Mr. CRAFARD. He is in the “pen” right now.

Mr. HUBERT. Penitentiary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mr. CRAFARD. New Ionia State Penitentiary.

Mr. HUBERT. What State is that in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been in the penitentiary?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months, I believe, now.

Mr. HUBERT. What term is he serving?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next sister.

Mr. CRAFARD. Norma Lee Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to?

Mr. CRAFARD. Owen Neal.

Mr. HUBERT. N-e-a-l?

Mr. CRAFARD. N-e-a-l.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they live together?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they have children?

Mr. CRAFARD. They have two children.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What is----

Mr. CRAFARD. Alice LaLaine Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her husband’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is not married. She lives with my parents.

Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is 17.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother that died.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Gary Harold Crafard.

Mr. HUBERT. How old was he when he died?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nine years old.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he die?

Mr. CRAFARD. 1954, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?

Mr. CRAFARD. Farwell, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there after your birth?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.

Mr. HUBERT. After those 4 years where did you go?

Mr. CRAFARD. Went to California.

Mr. HUBERT. What part?

Mr. CRAFARD. San Joaquin Valley.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. That is until you were about 10 years old?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ten years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much schooling did you finish there?

Mr. CRAFARD. First four grades.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?

Mr. CRAFARD. We moved back to Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. What place, in Michigan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Clare.

Mr. HUBERT. C-l-a-i-r-e?

Mr. CRAFARD. C-l-a-r-e.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you were 10 years old?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember going back; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.

Mr. HUBERT. Same place as before?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Stratmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that--were those satisfactory years?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean you have credit for those?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You lack 1 year to graduate?

Mr. CRAFARD. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you enlist?

Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. And what assignments were you given?

Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.

Mr. HUBERT. That is U.S. Army?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get basic training?

Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Ord.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.

From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you serve altogether?

Mr. CRAFARD. Thirteen months.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the usual tour?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. General, under honorable conditions.

Mr. HUBERT. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; DD214.

Mr. HUBERT. Of Defense Department Form 14.

Mr. CRAFARD. 214.

Mr. HUBERT. 214. May I have a look at it?

Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?

Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.

Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?

Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Sheridan, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were discharged, where did you go?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.

Mr. HUBERT. She had been married twice then?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?

Mr. CRAFARD. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.

Mr. HUBERT. How was that marriage dissolved?

Mr. CRAFARD. By divorce.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the grounds?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the grounds, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?

Mr. CRAFARD. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Farmer.

Mr. HUBERT. Has he remarried?

Mr. CRAFARD. He plans to remarry this summer.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him recently?

Mr. CRAFARD. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.

Mr. HUBERT. About how long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed there for about, let’s see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been April of 1960?

Mr. CRAFARD. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just what I got from my discharge pay.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had right around $400 all together.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that all you had?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I had; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had a few items of personal clothing.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t own any real estate, I take it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any cash but what you said?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less than a hundred dollars?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the pulpwoods.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean?

Mr. CRAFARD. We were cutting pulpwood.

Mr. HUBERT. What did that pay?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.

Mr. HUBERT. About how much would that amount to a month?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man.

Mr. HUBERT. Just an estimate?

Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around $400.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be net before taxes, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean was were you able to save any money?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t save any money there.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?

Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went back out home.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say where?

Mr. CRAFARD. To Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?

Mr. CRAFARD. About $150, enough to go out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that upon arrival at your parent’s home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.

Mr. CRAFARD. I was almost broke when I arrived home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other type of property?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been in March of 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. How long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work in the fruit----

Mr. HUBERT. In the fruit what?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around a month.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been in the spring of 1960?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to the cannery?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I worked there for about 6 months.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you make there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a $1.15 an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave your parent’s home?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t give you an exact date on this, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you finish?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What high school was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas High.

Mr. HUBERT. Oregon?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not earning anything then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go next?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California where I joined the carnival.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.

Mr. HUBERT. Oroville?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What carnival was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Royal West Golden Gate combined.

Mr. HUBERT. Royal West Golden Gate combined?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What type of carnival was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “carnival” you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is pretty hard to say exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.

Mr. HUBERT. Animal circus?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They all traveled as a group?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?

Mr. CRAFARD. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where did you go to next?

Mr. CRAFARD. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a side show was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at that carnival?

Mr. CRAFARD. Roustabout and barker.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was with Lepke for about a week.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mr. CRAFARD. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.

Mr. HUBERT. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; parking lot carnival.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with that organization?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was with him for about 2 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. How long then did you work for them?

Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you making there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?

Mr. CRAFARD. About $400, $450.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not married at this time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to save money?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in Los Angeles--I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Surveyor’s assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember even.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been between July and September of 1960?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it, please.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did you make with them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.

Mr. HUBERT. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.

Mr. HUBERT. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a leather tannery.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Muir McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.

Mr. HUBERT. What was J. C. Tracy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. So that during one period you were working two jobs--with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.

Mr. HUBERT. That was where?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg., then?

Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work there, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. All together.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?

Mr. CRAFARD. The last time I left Dallas----

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.

Mr. CRAFARD. I was married June of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your wife from?

Mr. CRAFARD. Originally from Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.

Mr. HUBERT. C-a-s-e?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had she been married before?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was her husband’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Donald Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times was she married before she married you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. When? How long before you married?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was in 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?

Mr. CRAFARD. All told; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn’t employed at the time I met my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. She was living with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When was she divorced from her husband?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t saw her for a year.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had--I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; she lived with my parents.

Mr. HUBERT. And so did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.

Mr. HUBERT. She had a son by the first marriage?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that son’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. How old is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. He is 2 years old approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. He is 2 years old now?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2½.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have a child by her?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that child born?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was born March 10, 1963--March 2, excuse me.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.--let’s take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.

Mr. HUBERT. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don’t think that is in the record yet.

Mr. CRAFARD. We--she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.

Mr. HUBERT. So she left you about December 1962?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg., for about 6 months after that.

Mr. HUBERT. She was pregnant then, was she not?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The child was born in March of 1963.

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I know that.

Mr. HUBERT. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.

Mr. CRAFARD. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn’t say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him--I had understood from him that she wouldn’t be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the cause of your breakup?

Mr. CRAFARD. That, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean she just left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any notes or anything?

Mr. CRAFARD. She didn’t leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.

Mr. HUBERT. With her child?

Mr. CRAFARD. With the boy; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to find her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I put a tracer on her.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had the law put a tracer out on her.

Mr. HUBERT. As a missing person?

Mr. CRAFARD. As a missing person; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any reports?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you next see her or hear from her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way?

Mr. CRAFARD. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.

Mr. HUBERT. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see, right around the 14th, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Of March?

Mr. CRAFARD. Of March.

Mr Hubert. Did you have any money then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have any other kind of property?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; just a few clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say you were, pretty broke?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was she living?

Mr Crafard. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. At what location?

Mr. CRAFARD. At Letot Trailer Park.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. CRAFARD. L-e-t-o-t.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr Crafard. On Lombardy Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with her then?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, get another trailer?

Mr. CRAFARD. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. At Letot’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is their name?

Mr Crafard. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live now?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea of their present address.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?

Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I arrived there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. CRAFARD. At Ablon Poultry.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.

Mr. HUBERT. How much were you making there?

Mr. CRAFARD. $1.10 an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did that amount to by the month?

Mr Crafard. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still living with your wife then?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. CRAFARD. Harry Heinz Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for that company?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, I don’t even remember working for the company actually.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.

Mr. CRAFARD. The Porter Building Co.?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. After that who did you work for?

Mr. CRAFARD. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.

Mr. HUBERT. About when was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in May or--it was in June, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we” you mean you and your wife and your two children?

Mr. CRAFARD. And my two boys.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?

Mr. CRAFARD. We went up by bus.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to save any money then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you work?

Mr. CRAFARD. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.

Mr. HUBERT. Port Angeles?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was there for about 6 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Until what date?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the date.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your wife still with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What was your next move?

Mr. CRAFARD. The next thing happened she left me again.

Mr. HUBERT. On what date was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t give you a date on that either.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember the dates too well.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer time?

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