Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what color it was?

Mr. TURNER. It seemed to be grey.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe any other clothing?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; he was, to my knowledge he was dressed in an overcoat, or long--it could have been a suit coat, but I didn’t notice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a fair look at his face?

Mr. TURNER. At an angle that I do not recognize him now. He seemed to be much heavier then than when I saw him in the Ruby trial.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark the position where you saw this man, marking it with the next number?

Mr. TURNER. All right. Let’s see. “10.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that that man that you saw at position “10”, was Jack Ruby?

Mr. TURNER. I certainly do.

Mr. HUBERT. He was coming down the Main Street ramp at that time?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. He was moving?

Mr. TURNER. He was moving at that time but this man looks like Ruby, but he seemed to be heavier than I see him now. I don’t know whether it is an allusion, being in a dark place----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man come out from the crowd and shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that man the same man that you have----

Mr. TURNER. It was this same man.

Mr. HUBERT. That you have marked as “10”?

Mr. TURNER. As “10”. It was the same man, and came out and shot him from “10”.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that if it were Jack Ruby who shot Oswald, it was Jack Ruby at place number “10”?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Right. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting was it that you saw a man in position number “10” there in a circle on the ramp?

Mr. TURNER. It was not more than 15 to 30 seconds. It was----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your eye on the man, this man?

Mr. TURNER. No; I had just glanced up there, and I had come back--my eye on our reporter, Tom Pettit, and also the door, which is behind Tom Pettit, which I will mark right now as “11”, where Oswald made his exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when was the next time you saw the man whom you have previously identified as number “10” and at what position was he then?

Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him he walked up to Position “12”, which was almost in line with our man, Pettit, which is number “8”, here.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you saw him then?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he at the front row of those people?

Mr. TURNER. Let me mark two more positions here, sir. A policeman was over here to his right, I think, which we’ll mark, “13”, and then there was a reporter, or a man dressed in a suit, I’ll call him the reporter at “14”.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, and my point is, that when you next saw the man who is now identified as Jack Ruby, and therefore I shall refer to him as Jack Ruby from now on out, he was at a position marked as number “12”?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing still there, or moving?

Mr. TURNER. There was only a matter of 4 seconds, or 5 seconds, when he arrived there that--until Oswald reached the point where he was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby arrive at the front?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He walked up to--see, this is all in line, from our camera position to our--there were--they were just a little back of the side light from our camera to our newscaster----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s number “8”?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are willing to say that he was standing at the front row of the group of people congregated there for possibly 5 seconds before he moved forward to shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you judge that the time that you saw him standing still, 5 seconds before this shooting of Oswald, was approximately 15 to 20 seconds after you first saw him in that position “10”?

Mr. TURNER. I am vague about that time. Ten seconds or 20 seconds. I am very vague. I mean, but I know he was only there a short time, because I saw--we were on guard to try to move the newsmen out of our way, push them out of the way in front of the camera, and you kind of thrash around at the movement of them to keep on your shot, and that is how I come to notice another man up there. These three men are the only ones that I remember on that side except our man Pettit. There could have been more. There was some CBS cameramen over in this locality, but they had already been there, and that wasn’t in my mind at all, the ones that were actually stationed there. It was the movement of people at that time that made you look at it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s get a little bit more about this period for Jack Ruby to move from the position you have marked “10”, to the position you have marked “12”, when he was standing in the front line. Did he have to go through any great mass of people?

Mr. TURNER. No, not to my knowledge, because I didn’t see a great number of men up in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to push, or shoulder his way up there?

Mr. TURNER. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He could just walk up and get into that position?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. There was some more men out there in this area, but I can’t connect it at this point.

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at, from what you tell me the group was not such that he would have to bulldoze his way through?

Mr. TURNER. No; he just flat walked up.

Mr. HUBERT. Just once, again for the record. There can be no doubt in your mind but the man now identified as Jack Ruby is the man you saw at position “10”?

Mr. TURNER. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, during our interview, immediately preceding the commencement of this deposition you mentioned another person that you had seen around the court building on several occasions, and I should like now--in other words, tell what you know about this person when you first saw him, now, at the numerous occasions on which you saw him until the last time that you saw him?

Mr. TURNER. All right. All right. We arrived from Fort Bliss at approximately 1 a.m. Saturday, the 23d of November, from Fort Worth, to set up our mobile unit inside the jail for a coverage of the assassination of the President, and when we arrived there we--there was this man that resembled John Carradine of the movies quite a lot. He was very thin faced, around 40 to 50, carrying a portfolio, and another little bag with him. Looked like a shaving kit bag, or something of that effect. He--as soon as we got there, it was chilly, and we went inside the open doors on the Commerce Street side, and he was standing inside, and he immediately started talking to us about various things which we passed off as just an average person talking to you, finding out what you were doing and everything, and he talked to us about 15 or 20 minutes. He did mention in his conversation that he had been a school teacher prior to that, about 16 months before.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he have a press badge on?

Mr. TURNER. No, he had no badge on. He was wearing a light trenchcoat or topcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. What height was he?

Mr. TURNER. He was approximately 5 feet 8 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you guess his weight to be?

Mr. TURNER. Oh, only around 130 to 140 pounds. Very light in weight; very skinny.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see the clothing he had under the trenchcoat?

Mr. TURNER. No; as far as I know, I never saw him without the trenchcoat on, the whole time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. He--We went to the cafe down the block to grab a bite to eat at this time, waiting on the truck, and the truck arrived while we were eating, and when we got back there he was still standing there talking, and a Mexican gentleman had come out, had been drinking too heavy, and made some comment about that, just a general line of talk.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention his name?

Mr. TURNER. He never mentioned his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else talk to him?

Mr. TURNER. As long as I was over there the only ones I saw talk to him was the man, Dave Timmons, with our crew, which was up there at the time, and Richard Bice, he was there, which was with the crew, and that is the only ones I ever saw him talk to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him talk to any policemen?

Mr. TURNER. Never did, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. TURNER. He continually, after they got set up, he kept coming up in the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the third floor?

Mr. TURNER. On the third floor, sir. This is while we were still up on the third floor, and waiting to get shots of Oswald being transferred from the elevator door to the questioning room, and he would continually come up and give--say, “They are going to bring him down in about 5 minutes.” And he usually was right, on each one of the tips he gave us. He mingled around in the press room up on the third floor a lot. He--I told Tom Pettit, which was the announcer up on the floor, that Oswald was coming down, and he said, “Where are you learning the information?”

Mr. HUBERT. You asked this of this man?

Mr. TURNER. Well, no; I didn’t ever ask him where he was learning his information, but I told--Tom Pettit asked me where I was getting this information, and I said, “Well, that man back over there,” and I pointed him out and he said, “Who is he?” And I said, “I don’t know who he is, but he is giving us some pretty good tips.” And he said, “Okay, keep using him, then.” From that point on, we saw him various times the whole, completely on the third.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you think you saw him?

Mr. TURNER. Oh, any number of times, 15 or 20. Just pass him in the hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to have free movement?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. He had free movement on that floor. He had free movement in the basement. That was the only two floors we actually ever did see him, but he was on those floors, back to the press room, talking to the other reporters.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. And, he--and then Sunday morning we came over. I ran into him in the restroom, and he seemed to just live there in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Still had that trenchcoat?

Mr. TURNER. And still carrying the little bag, same little bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem to be a camera bag?

Mr. TURNER. No; they were not camera bags. One little, thin portfolio, and I took the assumption he was selling insurance, from just looking at the little--something like an insuranceman might show to a customer, but that could be entirely wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he had another bag besides that?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Something like a traveling kit. Somewhere about 2 inches deep. And we came again Sunday morning, and then we went through the shooting of Oswald, he wasn’t in the basement, to my knowledge at this point.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you see him next?

Mr. TURNER. The next time I saw him was approximately 15 minutes after the shooting when I started to our remote truck to pick up a mike line and a camera cable. The doors was being guarded by policemen, who stopped me, and I told them my business; why I wanted to leave the jail, and give them my name and he let me leave.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. TURNER. Commerce Street entrance. All right, and when I came back in, which was approximately 3 or 4 minutes after, after we got the stuff ready to bring the camera in to take the lineup room, which is in the basement of the jail, well, this officer had him at the door, and he was trying to show him identification from his billfold.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who that officer was?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don’t. And this man turned to me and said, “That man there can identify me,” and I said, “Like hell I can. I don’t know who you are or what you are.” Or similar to this effect, that I had seen the man, but I didn’t know who he was, so, I kept on about my business, because we were pretty rushed at that time, and approximately 15 minutes later I ran onto him in the hallway coming back out the same door, and he said, “Thanks a million,” and I said, “Well, I don’t know you from anyone.” I said, “That’s why I didn’t identify you.” Or something to that effect and from that point on, I have never seen the gentleman again.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any effort to ascertain who he was?

Mr. TURNER. I have reported this to the Secret Service, Mr. Carter with the Secret Service, and I figured it wasn’t any of my business, from that point on.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen him since?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at the Ruby trial?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw that man there?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know most of the officers of the--top officers, at least--of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. TURNER. I know several. The chief and several of them, by face. I do not know them personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, as far as you know, this man that you have described looks like John Carradine, with the other aspects of the description you have given, wasn’t a police officer that you knew to be a police officer?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir--as far as I know. I never saw him talking to a police officer or any of them except the one.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t at the Ruby trial?

Mr. TURNER. He was never at the Ruby trial. The one officer at the door was the only contact I ever saw him with a police officer, and that was when he was, to my knowledge, trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. You remember any other facial characteristics about him, for instance, the color of his hair, or the way he wore his hair, or did he need a haircut, or was he----

Mr. TURNER. He was a typical man. I didn’t pay much attention to the haircut, but I’m pretty sure it was dark hair, black hair.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any scars, or identifiable marks?

Mr. TURNER. He did not have scars, but just wrinkles of age, like Carradine does.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been, do you think?

Mr. TURNER. Between 40 and 50, is my guess, but he had some wrinkles on his face. He was thin-jawed like.

Mr. HUBERT. What color eyes?

Mr. TURNER. I don’t know. I didn’t get that far.

Mr. HUBERT. And he wore this trenchcoat all the time?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And carried the two bags?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, and he was walking around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of accent in his speech?

Mr. TURNER. No; he had a typical Texan speech. I mean like myself, I have one, and he talked like a Texan. He didn’t have----

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t have any foreign accent?

Mr. TURNER. And, he did mention he had been a schoolteacher.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to go back for a minute to this matter of the position of Ruby of which you have marked on Exhibit 5080, at position “10.”

Mr. TURNER. Correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On the line, “A,” “B,” now, which shows him at position “10,” he was moving, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, he was slowly moving.

Mr. HUBERT. And his movement was from what direction?

Mr. TURNER. He was going forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was coming from what?

Mr. TURNER. From down the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any possibility that his movement could have been through the rail at this point that I am marking?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, because it is--here is my opinion----

Mr. HUBERT. At a point----

Mr. TURNER. Let’s see. “11,” “12,” “14,” “15.”

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s say approximately “15,” by the rail?

Mr. TURNER. He could have come over the rail, because I didn’t see him prior to that point.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his movements were such that you couldn’t say whether he came down the ramp, or came through the rail?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir, because I didn’t see him far enough up the ramp to where it was enclosed.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did see him it was beyond the point where the rail begins?

Mr. TURNER. I think I am too far back according to this. He would have--let’s move “A,” “B,”----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put the second position that you have mentioned as “C,” “D.”

Mr. TURNER. According to your mockup, it is half way, approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. Just about.

Mr. TURNER. All right, I am a little----

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s mark that “C,” “D,” so that now on second thought about it and looking at the mockup again, you want to have your previous testimony adjusted so that where you referred to Ruby at position “10,” on line “A,” “B,” previously, you now think it was that he was on position “10,” at line “C,” “D”?

Mr. TURNER. Correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you do that because you place him at the point where the ramp begins to go up?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, using this scale, which appears on the mockup, I would ask you to verify this with me.

Mr. TURNER. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. That the incline begins almost exactly 13 feet----

Mr. TURNER. Beyond the rail, I mean where the start of the rail is.

Mr. HUBERT. Thirteen feet from the start of the rail on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir, this would be our location here where he eventually----

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, am I correct in saying there was approximately 13 feet of rail through which Ruby could have come prior to the time you saw him at position number “10”?

Mr. TURNER. You are correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, going back to that position number “10” on the line, “C,” “D”. You have placed position number “10” almost in the middle of the ramp. Was he closer to one side or to the other?

Mr. TURNER. He seemed to be closer and--this is hard to say, because it was almost a casual glance, that he was closer to the rail side than he was to the other side.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see him come over the rail?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I did not. I did not come in contact with the man until he was in the position--he was nearly in the center of it when I came in contact, and the man--the hat was the most obvious facial--I mean just glancing at a man you take something that you can pick a man out by and remember his name by it. That is the way I remember people is something they ordinarily wear, and he had the hat on, but I thought he was a--much larger than--by just glancing at him.

Mr. HUBERT. We’ll come back to the other point. Is there any doubt in your mind that the man that you saw, however you would identify him at point number “10,” was the man that you later saw step forward and shoot Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; and without a doubt in my mind, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you would like to say?

Mr. TURNER. No, I want to say that I hope I have been some help to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let me ask you this: Other than myself, have you been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. TURNER. Not on the Commission staff, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was a little preliminary interview between you and me this morning before your deposition went onto the record.

Mr. TURNER. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you perceive any inconsistencies between our colloquy in the interview prior to the beginning of the actual taking of this deposition and the matters covered in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; none at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you tell me anything during the interview which we have not covered in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. You mean before?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. No, we discussed everything.

Mr. HUBERT. We got it all in the deposition?

Mr. TURNER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD R. FUQUA

The testimony of Harold R. Fuqua was taken at 3:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Harold Fuqua [spelling] F-u-q-u-a. Mr. Fuqua, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Fuqua, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, I think, Mr. Fuqua, that you have appeared here today by--as a result of an informal request made to the Dallas Public Works Department for whom you work, and I wish to advise you that under the rules of the Commission you would normally be entitled to a 3-day written notice before the taking of this deposition, but the rules of the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so, and I ask you now if you are willing to have your deposition taken now and therefore willing to waive the 3-day written notice?

Mr. FUQUA. I’m ready now, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FUQUA. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. FUQUA. Harold Rogers Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. FUQUA. Thirty.

Mr. HUBERT. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. FUQUA. 4338 Penelope, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. FUQUA. Parking attendant, basement of city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. FUQUA. Parking attendant in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. FUQUA. By the city of Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. FUQUA. About 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you on duty on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you were on duty, that means you were on duty in the parking area of the basement?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That basement is partially under the city hall, and partially under the police building, is that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir; it is under the municipal part of it. The parking basement, because it is right beside the jail part.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the parking area in the basement is really under the municipal building?

Mr. FUQUA. That is the way I would think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. And, what--it is all connected up by the two ramps?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That go up to Main Street and Commerce Street?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Also a sort of a corridor that goes into the jail office, isn’t that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your duties, normally, are just to assist in parking of cars down there?

Mr. FUQUA. Right, and make sure that the right people--in other words, we have people that come down each day to maybe want to park and go get a prisoner out of jail or pay their water bill. We don’t permit that.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that parking area is used for employees of the city and the municipal building, as well as for police automobiles?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Just not a public parking lot?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is your job, to keep them from parking down there?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; and to assist, too.

Mr. HUBERT. And to assist getting cars out when people come for them?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the morning of November 24, do you recall being put out of the basement area, I guess you might call it, along with Alfreadia Riggs and others?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. FUQUA. You said tell you what happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; tell us what happened.

Mr. FUQUA. All right, we were standing along and watching on, and then we went back and sit down over there, you know, at the telephone down where the elevator goes up into the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the service elevator?

Mr. FUQUA. Right, and captain and sergeant came over and said--well, said, “I hate to run you off your job”--said, “--but we’d rather for nobody but news reporters and police officers be down here.” At that time they were making a search through the basement there.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that about?

Mr. FUQUA. About 9:30, somewhere about like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened next?

Mr. FUQUA. We all loaded on the elevator and went up to the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go up with Mr. Pierce or did you come up a little later?

Mr. FUQUA. Seemed to me that we all went up together, or maybe I went up--I don’t know. I know that he made a trip down back. It might have been that I didn’t go up with Mr. Pierce. I don’t----

Mr. HUBERT. And came up a little later?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it much later?

Mr. FUQUA. Not too much later, because the time the captain told me he had rather for us to go.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, you went up to the first floor of the municipal building then?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that would have been about 9:30, or a quarter of 10:00?

Mr. FUQUA. About 9:30, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. FUQUA. We all were watching the action that was going on out on Commerce Street side and there was a lot of people standing out on the sidewalk with a--those officers were trying to keep them on the far side of the street, on the south side of the street rather than the north side, and when anybody would pass along there to try to maybe enter the building, they would ask them for some type--would appear to me that they would ask--were asking for some type of credentials or something.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there watching them?

Mr. FUQUA. I guess must have been stayed there--seemed like to me 30 minutes or more stayed there watching them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. FUQUA. Riggs and I left together and said, “Let’s see if we can’t go down and watch it on television,” see, so, we went out to the alleyway onto Main Street and walked back, came up the street and went around there by the ramp there, and came on around and came in from the Harwood side, and went down through the basement to the locker room to watch it on television. There was one fellow down there, he said that he didn’t think it would be on television, probably reruns would be on television, so, we came back up, and just about the time we came back up into the basement, that is--I guess that is when we heard the shot and the scrambling. We went on, and we went into the records building, which is right down from the jail office there.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came down in the basement, you don’t mean you came into the ramps, or the parking area?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You were there by the records room then?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; on around right from the Harwood side.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get out of the municipal building, sir?

Mr. FUQUA. You mean after the----

Mr. HUBERT. No; when you and Riggs left. First of all, what time was it, about, when you left the municipal building to go out and around----

Mr. FUQUA. Seemed to me that it must have been 10 or after.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was as late as 11?

Mr. FUQUA. No; I don’t think it was that late.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it another way. When you left Servance and Pierce and the others, at the Commerce Street entrance and you and Riggs decided to go and watch on television and you left for the municipal building, how long was it before the shooting.

Mr. FUQUA. Oh, it wasn’t over 10 or 15 minutes at the most. I doubt if it was that long, because we walked slowly along the street there and where these two officers were on the Main Street side, and just walked on around slowly, around the Harwood side, and looked down the ramp, and by the time we found out it wasn’t--that it wasn’t going to be on television and came back----

Mr. HUBERT. And that is about the time the shot was fired?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the locker room?

Mr. FUQUA. I think, sir, we were long enough--I think Riggs bought a can of chili and beans or something he bought.

Mr. HUBERT. And he had a chance to eat it?

Mr. FUQUA. He just walked on back up the stairs. We was laughing, we got to wondering what he did with the can when he got back up, because I guess just before he finished it, well, that is what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the papers, of course?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were walking along Main Street there and past the Main Street ramp, did you see him along Main Street or anywhere in the crowd?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir. I don’t remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. You would have passed there, you think, about 10 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. FUQUA. Something about like that, about 10 minutes before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what door did you use to get out of the municipal building?

Mr. FUQUA. Well, see, the elevator coming--you know, the service elevator, it has got a front and rear door, and we punched it and went through the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. When you punched it it opened the rear door?

Mr. FUQUA. That’s what happened, right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it made like a little hallway with the elevator being the hall, that is with the two doors of the elevator opened?

Mr. FUQUA. Right. You go straight through, because whenever the elevator is on the first floor lots of people want to use the elevator, they say, “Let me go through the back door.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got into the elevator door and the municipal building side of the elevator was open?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you punched the door on the other side of the elevator which opened that door so that you could get to the corridor leading to the alleyway?

Mr. FUQUA. All the controls are on one side.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you remember that the back door to the elevator, that is, to say, the elevator door on the alleyway side was closed, and you had to punch a button to open it up?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then how did you get out of the back door that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. FUQUA. Riggs opened up that door.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get a key from? Do you remember?

Mr. FUQUA. Key--see, the key usually hangs up in the elevator there. It is a string of keys on a stick.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take them with him--put it this way; did he have to use the key to open that door?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; he would have to use a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he lock it back up again?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes; he locked it.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?

Mr. FUQUA. You see, lots of times I do work, and I believe I remember him shaking it, you know, shake it to see if it is locked, because it is strict to keep it closed on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you have to do to close it after you had gone through the door and were standing in the alleyway area? How do you lock it then?

Mr. FUQUA. I don’t know whether you exactly--whether you can fix it so it will lock when you pull it.

Mr. HUBERT. Or do you have to turn the key?

Mr. FUQUA. Right. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you say you do remember him shaking the door?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. After you all had passed through the door?

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t try the door yourself?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But, from what you were able to see, he was shaking it as a person would do just testing to see if a door is closed?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it seemed now to be closed?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I’m marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5134, Deposition of Harold Fuqua,” and signing my name to it. The document consists of two pages, and I’m putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document when you testify in a moment about this document, I would like you to place your signature near mine on the first page, and your initials near mine on the second page, please.

Mr. FUQUA. Now, say this again, now.

Mr. HUBERT. On that first page----

Mr. FUQUA. Just put my first--my signature here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just your signature. I note that you are putting your signature above and to the right of the inscription I have put on there, that is all right. Would you put your initials on the second page, please.

Now have you read that document consisting of two pages and identified as 5134?

Mr. FUQUA. I have read it outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir; everything that I know that is on here is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state to us now that between the statement and your deposition which you have just given that you have said all that you know about this matter altogether?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that if the Commission takes that statement, Exhibit 5134, and your deposition that they will have everything you know about this whole matter?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission, to your knowledge, prior to this?

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there an interview between you and me prior to this?

Mr. FUQUA. Were you the one that called me on the telephone?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir. Someone called you on the telephone?

Mr. FUQUA. Yes, sir; I guess. Called me on the telephone and told me when to be down here.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but that telephone call, whoever it was with, was solely for the purpose of fixing the time of this appointment.

Mr. FUQUA. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. No discussion of any matters.

Mr. FUQUA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you and I have not discussed the matter before your deposition began?

Mr. FUQUA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all then.

I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD KELLY

The testimony of Edward Kelly was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Edward Kelly.

Mr. Kelly, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Kelly, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Kelly, you have appeared here today as a result of a request made informally of you to come. I want to advise you that under the rules adopted by the President’s Commission you are entitled, if you wish, to have a 3-day written notice before this deposition can be taken. On the other hand the Commission has also provided that if a witness doesn’t desire to have the 3-day notice and is willing to testify immediately and without having the notice, and is willing to waive that notice that he may do so.

Are you willing to waive the notice and testify now?

Mr. KELLY. About what?

Mr. HUBERT. About the general inquiry and about the document that I have just shown you?

Mr. KELLY. Oh, yes; I’d rather testify now.

Mr. HUBERT. You’d rather testify. Will you stand so that I may give you the oath?

Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KELLY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Mr. KELLY. Edward Kelly.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. KELLY. Twenty-one.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence? Where you live?

Mr. KELLY. 1315 Sanger Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. 1315 what?

Mr. KELLY. Sanger.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. KELLY. Porter at city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been occupied like that?

Mr. KELLY. May 2d, I’ll be there 1 year.

Mr. HUBERT. May 2d, of 1964, will be 1 year?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the basement of the police department on Sunday, November 24th, before Oswald was shot down there?

Mr. KELLY. Yes; I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were in the company with Harold Fuqua and Alfreadia Riggs and that’s all of those?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964. Exhibit No. 5133, Deposition of Edward Kelly.”

Signing my name to it. It consists of one page only, and I ask you if you have read that document?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In order that the record may show that we are both speaking about the same thing, I wonder if you would place your initials on that document. Now, Mr. Kelly, you have put your initials on this document which I have marked 5133, by putting “EK”, is that correct?

Mr. KELLY. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this document correct, Mr. Kelly?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have had a chance to read it?

Mr. KELLY. Yes; I have had--I have read it twice. There is nothing wrong about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything that should be added to it?

Mr. KELLY. As far as I can remember.

Mr. HUBERT. This conveys all that you know about the matter?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the President’s Commission?

Mr. KELLY. No, sir; besides--I mean, you know, Mr. Peden.

Mr. HUBERT. No; he is an FBI man.

Mr. KELLY. Well, that is the onliest one.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when Oswald was shot?

Mr. KELLY. I was up in the--on the first floor on the Commerce exit side.

Mr. HUBERT. You were along with Mr. Pierce and----

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Servance?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Alfreadia Riggs and Harold Fuqua there that time, too?

Mr. KELLY. At the same time he was shot?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had they been there earlier?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did they go, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLY. I don’t know. Didn’t know they left.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew they left, but you don’t know where they went, or how they got there, from your knowledge?

Mr. KELLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I think that is all we need from you.

Mr. KELLY. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS McKINZIE

The testimony of Louis McKinzie was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. McKinzie, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with an Executive order in that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. McKinzie. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. McKinzie, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. McKinzie, you have appeared here today by virtue of the fact that the members of the Secret Service contacted you to locate you and ask you to come, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not yet received the letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, that you would be asked to come here, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I see that the copy of the letter that I have was addressed to 321 Harmon Street, Dallas, Tex. That is not your address. Your address was 3321 Harmon, so, they left out one 3 there. There was also a copy of a letter sent to the Dallas Public Works Department addressed to you that you didn’t receive.

Mr. McKINZIE. I didn’t receive that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. As I told you, we sent out the letter with the hope that it would be received, but apparently you have not received it. The rules, however, provide that any witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Are you willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. McKINZIE. Probably, I don’t quite understand there what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you could, if you want to say now, “I’ll come in when I get the letter.”

Mr. McKINZIE. I see. I see. Well, not necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want to. It is just a waiving of nothing else but the notice.

Mr. McKINZIE. In other words, since I am here, I’d just as soon not do that. I mean, I’d just as soon answer your questions.

Mr. HUBERT. You are waiving nothing else but the notice that the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission say that you are entitled to.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you feel that you would just as soon go ahead now and not come back 3 days after you get the letter, then you are willing to waive it, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and raise your right hand so that you may be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McKINZIE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for me.

Mr. McKINZIE. Louis McKinzie.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age?

Mr. McKINZIE. Fifty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is your residence, Mr. McKinzie?

Mr. McKINZIE. 3321 Harmon.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. McKINZIE. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. McKINZIE. Porter.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. McKINZIE. City hall, public works department.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a city employee?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a city hall employee, sir?

Mr. McKINZIE. Exact--this is March and--Oh, I’d say 6 years and 6 months. That would be just about it, correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, I did construction work mostly.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter?

Mr. McKINZIE. Carpenter’s helper.

Mr. HUBERT. Carpenter’s helper?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been living in the Dallas area all your life?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. McKINZIE. I was raised at East Texas, Palestine, Anderson County.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Children?

Mr. McKINZIE. Five.

Mr. HUBERT. All grown.

Mr. McKINZIE. All grown.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular job with the Dallas Public Works Department?

Mr. McKINZIE. General porter work. I keep the first floor on the public works department and water department and building permit department and general split shift. I work, oh, every day, part-time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say general porter in the water works department, that is the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to describe how you can get into the first floor of the municipal building. All possible ways to get in the first floor?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, you have got--you have got a door on Main Street that you can come in. You have got a door on Commerce Street that you can come in. Also, have a door on the alley coming from the Western Union that you can come in, and if somebody lets you in, well, I mean, you know it is open to the public through the week, but weekends it is not. In other words, none of the doors open to the public on weekends. Just working days only.

Mr. HUBERT. Those doors are locked on weekends, that is, Friday night?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. In other words, after 6:30 in the afternoon all doors are locked and all elevators are canceled but one, which that is what they call the freight elevator. It runs from the basement all the way to the fifth floor, and that is where everybody is supposed to go in and out, through the building at night and on weekends, Saturdays and Sundays and holidays, unless it is maintenance men, they have their own keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there any passageway between the building known as the jail building, or the police department building and the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. First floor, second floor and third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. And what?

Mr. McKINZIE. In other words, they have gates there that they close after closing time and lock.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a gate made of----

Mr. McKINZIE. Metal.

Mr. HUBERT. Metal across metal, sort of like an accordion.

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it locks?

Mr. McKINZIE. They lock that after closing time. Stay locked until 6:30, 7 the next morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And on weekends?

Mr. McKINZIE. No; on weekends it would be locked permanently.

Mr. HUBERT. From 6:30 Friday, in the afternoon until about 7 o’clock Monday morning?

Mr. McKINZIE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is true of the gates, small gates on the second and third floor, also?

Mr. McKINZIE. First, second and third. That is the only--there is three of them, three floors, first, second and third.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is it possible to get into the first floor of the municipal building from the basement by using a--the staircase, the fire escape, the fire escape staircase?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is kept locked. They do have a door there.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a double door.

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; they have just an ordinary door made like that one there that you go up the stair steps from the basement, but it is locked. It is--well, it is locked at nights, too.

Mr. HUBERT. It is locked. Which side?

Mr. McKINZIE. From the--it would be locked from the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. From the basement side?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. You can come out it. You can come down and come out it, but you can’t go in it from the basement without a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if a person was on the first floor, could he get to the basement by using the fire escape stairs?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fire escape staircase doors on the first floor of the municipal building are not locked?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you can get into that fire escape staircase, as it were, and go one flight down and----

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you can open the door down there, that is not locked?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is locked, but you can open it from the inside.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay, open from the staircase side, so, if you got into the staircase, you could get into the basement, is that right?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th, which was on a Sunday, the Sunday after President Kennedy was killed, were you on duty that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. McKINZIE. 7 o’clock, Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?

Mr. McKINZIE. 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your particular duty that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. I was running the freight elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you operate the elevator all day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave it at any time?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. McKINZIE. Around 10 o’clock is when I got orders to carry it to the first floor and cut it off and not bring any passengers down to the basement until I got further permission from the police department, and I was off of it then, I was still on the first floor, I just wasn’t operating it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the elevator itself?

Mr. McKINZIE. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the elevator itself and walk some place else?

Mr. McKINZIE. Just down the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the doors of the elevator open then?

Mr. McKINZIE. It was open, but it was cut off. I had it automatic, and I had it cut off with the key. Couldn’t nobody----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that really has two doors in it, doesn’t it?

Mr. McKINZIE. Back and front.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the front one, I suppose, you designate as the one that opens up into the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the back one is the one that opens up into a little hallway that leads to an alleyway?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that back door of the elevator also open on other floors?

Mr. McKINZIE. On the second floor of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left the elevator what was the position of both doors?

Mr. McKINZIE. Front was open facing the municipal building. The back was closed.

Mr. HUBERT. It never was open at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; never was open.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether the back of the elevator was open any time during the morning of November 24th, until the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. I am sure that I wouldn’t be making no mistake if I said it was open several times, because we had some porters down there working that brings trash from the jail department, and I always let them out that door, and they go out the back, and that is where they keep all their trash and the garbage and so forth, and I imagine about 8 or 8:30, that they were open, because that is about the time they carries the trash and stuff out.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the back----

Mr. McKINZIE. There would be one porter probably went out maybe one or two trips.

Mr. HUBERT. How would he get out through that back door leading onto the alleyway? Is that an open door?

Mr. McKINZIE. It is locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Who has the key?

Mr. McKINZIE. They gives them a key to go out that door to carry the trash, and they bring the key back and carry them back down to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. They don’t have a key personally; the key is in the elevator on a ring, is that right?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And they have to get that key from the elevator operator?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you give the key to anybody that day, do you remember?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, I’m sure that I give it to--I don’t know which porter was working, just exactly. I think Alfreadia Riggs, or some of them, but I am sure I give them the key to unlock the back door to carry his trash out.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that back door have a latch on it so that you can push it and it will stay open?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That door requires a key all the time, either way?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. When they go out, how do they get back in?

Mr. McKINZIE. They got to leave it open, or either carry the key to come back in.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they leave it open?

Mr. McKINZIE. They just walk out on the little ramp. The garbage cans is sitting right by the building, and they just, oh, about 4 feet from the door is about all, or 5 feet from the door is all they have to walk. They mostly have that trash in a sack, and just throw it in the corner and right back in the building.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, after you had been told not to bring the elevator down to the basement any more, did you follow those orders?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never brought the elevator down at all any more?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; not until--well, I know it was 11:30, probably 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; it was after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. And you want to say now that that elevator never came down to the bottom floor all the time?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; it didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; you also state, so that we can be clear that after you took the elevator to the first floor the doors of the elevator--the front doors of the elevator rather were open, but the back door was not?

Mr. McKINZIE. That back was not.

Mr. HUBERT. And the elevator, any time you left it, was cut off so that it couldn’t be operated?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It had a key, isn’t that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And without turning the elevator on with the key, it couldn’t move?

Mr. McKINZIE. Couldn’t move.

Mr. HUBERT. You had the key in your possession?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the elevator didn’t move unless you knew about it?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you let any porters out after you had been told not to move the elevator?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Out the back door?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the back door, by the way, was closed?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. So, your statement is that from the time you were told not to bring the elevator down any more there was nobody who could have gone out of the door or come into it?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Through the elevator door there or that alley door?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody asked you for the keys to get out?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know--what is his name, Alfreadia Riggs?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his job?

Mr. McKINZIE. He was a porter.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember allowing Alfreadia Riggs and Harold Fuqua to go through the back door of the elevator and out of the back door on the alley?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That did not happen?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It didn’t happen at any time at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, now, not during the period of the time that I had the elevator cut off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it happen at anytime from the----

Mr. McKINZIE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you were ordered not to bring the elevator down until after the shooting?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; it didn’t happen.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody passed through that door?

Mr. McKINZIE. One lady probably came from--I went to five and got a telephone operator and brought her down to one. I told her I couldn’t carry her down to the basement, and she walked down the stairway and she couldn’t get the elevator. She walked down, and I carried her back up to one, but outside of that, those two women that I can recall, two women, but I don’t know the name, but a telephone operator that got the elevator, one of them on the first floor, and one walked from the first--fifth floor down to the first floor, the--down the stairway and I carried her back in the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Up to the fifth?

Mr. McKINZIE. Up to the fifth floor. Outside of that after I got her it was a telephone man came in just as they left--gave me those orders, but they give me orders to carry him to the fifth floor and bring him right back, and he was the last passenger that I carried all the way from the basement to the fifth floor after I got orders to cut the elevator off, to the fifth floor, he went up there and right back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody open up either the Commerce Street entrance or the Main Street entrance and go out?

Mr. McKINZIE. Nobody. I say, the engineerman had a key, and him and a bunch of them stood in the Commerce side at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He opened the door?

Mr. McKINZIE. He opened it one time, but now what I can understand--I don’t know, I think they had three policemen at that door, and they wouldn’t let him come out.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the municipal building, first floor, Commerce Street?

Mr. McKINZIE. Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. And they wouldn’t let him out?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; give him orders they couldn’t let him out. Opened the first door, and walked out into the lobby, you know, got a little lobby. This is as far as they got, that lobby there.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Main Street entrance?

Mr. McKINZIE. Nobody went to Main Street. Nobody went to that door.

Mr. HUBERT. Who had the key to those doors?

Mr. McKINZIE. Mr. Pierce, the engineer.

Mr. HUBERT. He is the engineer?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where--what is his first name, do you know?

Mr. McKINZIE. I really don’t know his first name, but he was on duty that Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. He is the engineer?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He works in the basement?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes; subbasement.

Mr. HUBERT. Subbasement. That’s where all the engineering equipment and air conditioning is located?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he the only one who has the keys?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I don’t know how many engineermen they have down there, but I understand every one of them has keys. Every one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a key?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The keys you had were to the elevator and to the back door facing on the alley, is that right?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you use any kind of a sign-in and sign-out system?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so that day when you let the porters out?

Mr. McKINZIE. The porters don’t sign.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, they----

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; the porters don’t sign.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what would you say if I’d tell you that both Alfreadia Riggs and Henry--I think it is Harold Fuqua say they did go out of the building?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Riggs says he went out through the back door, through the back elevator door and through the door and he walked on down Main Street and Fuqua says he went out the Main Street entrance.

Mr. McKINZIE. During the time that I had it cut off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, now, it was they went out of that building, I understand, but now, they didn’t go out the elevator. What I understand, they went through the building somewhere and went down in the police department, because that is where they got stopped at. At the police department, they got cut off down there.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes; they was in the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was after you had been told not to bring anybody down?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw them after that?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, the only way they could get down or out of that building was in one of the methods we have talked about.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. On out the Main Street door, going out the Commerce Street door, going through the corridor that goes to the jail.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or going down the steps?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Or going to the elevator and into the alleyway?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. One of the two.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know how they got out?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that they did not get out through the elevator at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. I can’t figure how they could unless one of them had a key, and I don’t think one of them had a key, because I had the key myself and when I turned it off I took it with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody asked you to take them down?

Mr. McKINZIE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or to open the back door?

Mr. McKINZIE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that the back doors of the elevator were open when you had the elevator cut off?

Mr. McKINZIE. I don’t think so. It could have been a button might have flew open, but I think when I cut it off, when you mash your button, why, it don’t open until you turn your switch.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave the back door open?

Mr. McKINZIE. No; I left it closed.

Mr. HUBERT. Sir, if somebody had to open it----

Mr. McKINZIE. It would have been open when I went back to it. It wouldn’t close.

Mr. HUBERT. It wouldn’t automatically close?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No way to make it close from the outside?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; when you’ve got it cut off. When it is on automatic when you cut it off if you leave your doors open they stay open. If you close them up they stay closed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say they were closed?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, even pushing the button wouldn’t have opened the back door?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The key to the back door of the building that goes out to the alleyway, was it left in the elevator when you left the elevator?

Mr. McKINZIE. I hang the keys on a ring and hang them up on the wall.

Mr. HUBERT. Those keys were there?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So if they had managed to get the elevator door open, they could have used that key to get the back door leading onto the alley open?

Mr. McKINZIE. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you didn’t see anything like that?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see them go out Main Street?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir. Now, which way they went out of that, I really do not know, but I do learn--I heard them say, myself, they believed they would go down to the police department and watch television.

Mr. HUBERT. How would they get to the police department from the main floor of the municipal building?

Mr. McKINZIE. They would have had, at least, to went out Commerce Street and went down and gone down into the basement, or either--or they would have had to went through the screen door, the door between the two swinging, so, they had to go one of two ways. The only way to go to the police department from the municipal building into the police department. After they got in that alley, they had to go right down in the stairways, as I understand is where they was, they went downstairs, they had to go out through a gate if they went downstairs, and they stopped them over in the police department before they even got over to the televisions. That is where they were stopped at.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that they used the staircase, the fire stairs?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir; I think they must have used the door between the two buildings.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that door that has got two metal doors like an accordion?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have a key to that?

Mr. McKINZIE. I don’t know whether Riggs had keys or not. He is a truck-driver. He might have keys of his own. He works daytime and I work nights. I don’t know too much about it. I don’t know too much about it, but I know he drives a truck and porter work, and those head boys, some of them has keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know this man called Jack Ruby?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never met him before in your life?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him?

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come in there that day?

Mr. McKINZIE. I don’t know. I didn’t see him if he did and I don’t think he did. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are swearing that you didn’t see him come in?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, since all this happened you must have stopped to think to yourself, “Well, did that man come in through where I was supposed to be?”

Mr. McKINZIE. Oh, yes, sir. I have thought of it, but I know he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I want to find out. You have put your mind to it and you have thought about it a great deal----

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are prepared to tell us under oath now, Louis, that this man did not come through, so far as you know, you didn’t see him?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. That’s right. He come in there some other way. He didn’t come through that elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else you want to say, Louis, that might help the President’s Commission in finding out the truth about this thing?

Mr. McKINZIE. Well, I don’t--other words about it, I just don’t know anything I could say.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we certainly don’t want you to invent anything. On the other hand, we want you to feel free to say anything that is the truth.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Because this is an important thing.

Mr. McKINZIE. Sure. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody blames you, or anybody. On the other hand, if we could find out the truth it would help us to protect other people and other Presidents in the future.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have given thought to all that, and you are saying that what you are telling us is the truth?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. If you should remember sometime something that you haven’t told us here this morning, or you haven’t told the FBI or the investigating officers, why, I would like very much for you to contact the President’s Commission through the U.S. attorney’s office there, Mr. Barefoot Sanders, and tell us you have something to say to us that hasn’t been said before.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And we’ll get in touch with you. Now, let me ask you one more thing. Has anybody other than the Government officials, U.S. officials talked to you about this?

Mr. McKINZIE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The police department didn’t talk to you about it at all?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t inquire of you as to whether Ruby had come that way?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody from the Dallas Police Department ever talked to you?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody has threatened you?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They haven’t told you not to tell the truth?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s right. Nobody said anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody said anything like that to you? Didn’t even speak to you about it?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody ever took a statement from you?

Mr. McKINZIE. Nobody from the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the FBI, of course.

Mr. McKINZIE. Yes, FBI; that is the only one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to my speaking to you this morning and taking this deposition, there had been no interviews between you and me, is that correct?

Mr. McKINZIE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, we haven’t spoken about this matter until you came into this room and took your oath?

Mr. McKINZIE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Louis. Thank you very much.

Mr. McKINZIE. Okay. I thank you.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD E. PIERCE

The testimony of Edward E. Pierce was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Pierce, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent and violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Pierce, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and the physical setup of the police department and the municipal building.

Mr. PIERCE. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Pierce, I think you have appeared here today as a result of an informal request made for you to come here.

Mr. PIERCE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules cf the Commission, you are actually entitled to a 3-day written notice before the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that if you wish, and I must ask you first of all, do you waive the 3-day written notice to which you are normally entitled, and----

Mr. PIERCE. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You are ready to go ahead right now?

Mr. PIERCE. Sure. Didn’t even know that I have a choice. In fact, it is quite fortunate that it came on this day. I am ready, and much prefer, as I expected this was the time I--and to put it another way, I don’t need the other 3 days. It is, I understand, for people who have business appointments or other things and maybe they would, but that is not the case.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PIERCE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell me your full name?

Mr. PIERCE. Edward Eugene Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your age, sir?

Mr. PIERCE. 45.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence? Where do you live?

Mr. PIERCE. I thought you said, “Resident,” sir. 1726 Michigan.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. PIERCE. Building and maintenance employee at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. PIERCE. 5 years, almost exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you on duty in the city hall and police building on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. PIERCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. PIERCE. 7 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?

Mr. PIERCE. Almost exactly 3 o’clock, 5 or 6 or 8 minutes, probably, after 3, because after 3 o’clock I was no more on duty, as far duty, which is 3 o’clock, and as far as my actual building, I wanted to look around and see what was taking place, so, probably 7 or 8 minutes after 3 when I actually drove out of the basement area.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your duties, functions and responsibilities in your position on that day while you were on duty with respect to both buildings, to wit, the municipal building and the police building?

Mr. PIERCE. You covered a lot of ground there. To actually be one-half percent accurate, I would nearly need the civil service breakdown of that job responsibility, because you covered all of it. Well, for all practical purposes, the operation of the city hall and its maintenance is a 24-hour a day operation. Consequently, we have three shifts--and they have to use some of the personnel, too, as building engineers, see. If they want one of us they page the building engineer. Actually, we aren’t the building engineers. We are merely responsible for the building maintenance and operation of the two buildings, which are joined together on a 24-hour a day basis.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that on November 24----

Mr. PIERCE. I reported for my----

Mr. HUBERT. You were the man in charge of maintenance and operation of both buildings on the shifts from 7 until 3 that afternoon?

Mr. PIERCE. And I was the only one there. That responsibility is handled by what is called our building operator because of air-conditioning equipment that must be maintained and operated for both buildings, and we are equipment operators, and in building maintenance--also called--that’s a step above building maintenance six, technically speaking.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, those two buildings actually join together----

Mr. PIERCE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. They join, as I understand it, in several ways, and I would like you to explain first of all how a person who is--was on the first floor of the municipal building could get to the other building, the police building?

Mr. PIERCE. On the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. HUBERT. Right. How could he get through under normal circumstances?

Mr. PIERCE. To the first floor of the police and courts building?

Mr. HUBERT. Or to any part of the police building?

Mr. PIERCE. Police department. Very well, sir; simplest way would be to take the first floor corridor of the municipal building which goes immediately to the police and courts building. On the weekends, however, on this particular day; that is on the normal operation any day of the week they are connected and open, and on the weekends, or after regular municipal building hours in every night there is an expansion type steel gate closes that municipal building off, the corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock?

Mr. PIERCE. From the--it remains locked.

Mr. HUBERT. But was it locked that day?

Mr. PIERCE. It was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you test it yourself?

Mr. PIERCE. Possibly I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Could anyone open it but yourself?

Mr. PIERCE. I don’t have the only key.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that door open?

Mr. PIERCE. To my knowledge, that door was never open the entire day.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did test it to see that it was locked?

Mr. PIERCE. It was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you test it prior to the shooting?

Mr. PIERCE. Not prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. You----

Mr. PIERCE. I saw that the gate was across the corridor, as it should be. I was on the first floor, a matter of walking about as far as from here, a little further to the wall, and I didn’t walk up to it prior to the shooting to see that it was locked, but it was in place and latched.

Mr. HUBERT. Could have been open?

Mr. PIERCE. It was locked. That lock--when that latch was engaged, it was in place, latched.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you could see of it, then--although you didn’t come up to it, but came to within a distance, which I suggest to you now from the reference you made a moment ago was about 40 feet, 30 feet?

Mr. PIERCE. 60 foot, probably.

Mr. HUBERT. You came to within 60 feet of it, and you saw that the latch was in?

Mr. PIERCE. In place and latched, and in that position the door is locked.

Mr. HUBERT. It is locked and you would need a key to open it?

Mr. PIERCE. That is my sworn statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Right. And you did not open it?

Mr. PIERCE. I never saw it open at any time.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not open it yourself?

Mr. PIERCE. No; but like I say; I checked it, but it was after we knew that everything had happened, and all of sudden, security got to be of such an utmost importance, or the urgency of security was such that I pulled on it to see if it was, but when you said, “prior to,”--prior to that time, I hadn’t, but I do know it was latched at that time. Was actually locked when I checked it manually to see if for some peculiar reason the latch was open.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, in effect, is that while you actually tugged on the door after the shooting and found it to be locked, that your check of it prior to the shooting was visual, but that in your opinion it was in a position that it was locked?

Mr. PIERCE. It is impossible for it not to have been locked.

Mr. HUBERT. It is impossible for it not to have been locked, and that was--that check was made prior to the shooting?

Mr. PIERCE. Prior.

Mr. HUBERT. How much prior? Do you know?

Mr. PIERCE. That would be difficult to say just exactly how much prior, but it was--to give an actual time on it, of course, when we went to the main floor, the first floor on the elevator prior to the shooting, in this corridor, that is a four-way corridor there. There is an information desk sits right in the intersection of the two corridors, and the several elevators is in the corridor that leads--that is the reason I say it takes a little describing because it was facing that corridor and that gate when you get off the elevator, and that was 9:30, probably 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, what other way is it possible to go from the first floor of the municipal building into the police building?

Mr. PIERCE. From the first floor to the police building, the only way from the first floor that you can get into the police and courts building is to leave the municipal building first floor, that is the only way you can get to it.

Mr. HUBERT. And go where?

Mr. PIERCE. And go either outside on the--only other way you can get to it is to go outside on either Main Street or Commerce Street and go down to the police and courts building and use one of their entrances, or take the service elevator down to the basement, which you have the model here, and walk across that garage area and the ramp area to the basement. Two ways, but no other way you can get there from the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. About--what about the fire escape stairs?

Mr. PIERCE. No fire escape.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t there a fire case where----

Mr. PIERCE. The enter--staircase, you still can’t get there. It is impossible to get there, because that staircase is always locked from the municipal building. That stairway is inside the building proper. It is not an outside stairway like this.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.

Mr. PIERCE. And the entrance to it is always locked.

Mr. HUBERT. There are two staircases that open onto the main floor of the municipal building, isn’t that correct, or three?

Mr. PIERCE. One on Commerce Street. One back in the building, and then another one up on Main Street which goes up into a second floor, but the second floor they are faced also with the same proposition on weekends, which you are speaking of here. That entire building is separated.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as to both of those staircases, is it not a fact that they do not go down into the basement at all. Only one goes down to the basement?

Mr. PIERCE. Only one goes down to the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. And that one is a staircase just off the corridor on the Main Street side?

Mr. PIERCE. Right. That goes down.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, they have doors that--two doors, sort of swinging doors, are they not?

Mr. PIERCE. Not to the first floor; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can’t you at all times use those doors to get into the staircase and go either up or down?

Mr. PIERCE. When you say “those doors,” you are referring to the single door on each stairway, of which there are two, or still speaking of a one single door which leads to the stairway which goes down to the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. To the basement, the other two do not go down into the basement. It is the single--that is what I mean, when I said you would have to leave the first floor and go down into the basement, you could take that stairway, so that a person getting into the main floor, can get to the police basement by using that stairway?

Mr. PIERCE. That’s right. He can come down it and go out, but he cannot leave the basement area and go up, because it is always locked. The entrance to the building is locked. That door is always locked.

Mr. HUBERT. But, going the other way, that is to say, from the main building down to the basement via that staircase, you would need no key, and that door is open all the time?

Mr. PIERCE. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Even on weekends?

Mr. PIERCE. Right, sir. That is one of the other means?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that leaves, I think, one other entrance to the municipal building, and the entrance in the back on the alleyway. Now, are you familiar with that entrance and that door?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about that--how that door operates?

Mr. PIERCE. It is a door--double door.

Mr. HUBERT. A double door?

Mr. PIERCE. Comes together and has a lock on it, which when locked is locked both from the inside--you can’t get out, and the outside you can’t get in.

Mr. HUBERT. So, when locked you need a key to go either way, is that correct?

Mr. PIERCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, suppose someone had a key and went out that door, and simply let the door slam behind him, well, would that door be, at that time, locked or unlocked?

Mr. PIERCE. It will be unlocked.

Mr. HUBERT. To lock it you must use a key to turn the lock?

Mr. PIERCE. You have to step outside the door and turn around and use your keys to lock it back.

Mr. HUBERT. And, if you don’t do that, it is an open door?

Mr. PIERCE. It is an open door.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, it might be closed, but all you’d have to do is turn the knob and go on in?

Mr. PIERCE. That’s what I mean. It is open until you take your key and relock yourself out. No one else can get in without a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know whether anyone did go through that door from the first floor into the alleyway that day from your own knowledge?

Mr. PIERCE. Not from actually having seen them, but as a matter of my knowledge, I am quite sure that that door was opened and closed probably several times prior to the shooting because the porters work. In their normal assigned work, now, they take out trash and paper sacks and garbage and whatnot. Mr. Servance, the head porter, always has a key to that door for the removal of trash.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the custom with respect to locking or not locking the door when they routinely perform the porter duties?

Mr. PIERCE. The normal custom is to unlock the door and take their trash out, and their receptacle for the trash is immediately on the other side of the door, and as a matter of habit and routine, while they are--they take a garbage can out on four-wheel dollies and leave the door open there until they can set the cans over in there, or as close as from here to that door from the door they have just left open, and they set the full cans off onto the dolly and pick up the four clean cans and set them back on the dolly and push them back into the building, and it is only for that period of time, but they relock it when they come back in.

Mr. HUBERT. But, normally, it is an open door while they are performing----

Mr. PIERCE. While they are performing their duties.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether the Main Street entrance to the municipal building was locked that day?

Mr. PIERCE. It was locked; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You tested it yourself?

Mr. PIERCE. And I inadvertently did. Not purposely, for any purpose, but I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that you inadvertently did?

Mr. PIERCE. And I am glad it happened that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that, briefly.

Mr. PIERCE. The Main Street door is comprised of a revolving door with two little vestibule-type doors, one each--that is, one on each side of the revolving door and the two vestibule doors and revolving door are all locked, and I do know that they were locked, because for this reason. In the crowd and milling of curiosity seekers and general public that had gone up and down Main Street, as well as Commerce, and in an attempt to get in and see what was going on, a couple--two women looked through the glass of the doors there. And apparently thought, well, if they could get in here they could see in, because I believe it was a time--no, I wouldn’t even say I believe it was a time. It might be they had tried the ramp area, and at any rate, they came up to the door and tried to get in the revolving door as if to come in off of Main Street, and apparently not knowing that the building was closed for the weekend, they thought they could come right in city hall, and I just waved my hand at them this way [indicating] and they had seen it was locked, and I waved my hand at them as if to say, “I’m not going to open it for you. City hall is closed.” We have to do that quite often, because people come down and want to pay their water bills and we have to say, “We are closed for the weekend.” And I know it was closed because they were trying to see if they could get in. In fact, this was the time when even I didn’t know all this other was going to take place, but I figured, too, curiosity.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Commerce Street----

Mr. PIERCE. No; it was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it ever open in your presence?

Mr. PIERCE. I opened it myself one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Servance open it one time, too?

Mr. PIERCE. He was there, but I opened it.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you all stood in the vestibule?

Mr. PIERCE. The other doors stay open for the convenience of people who want to make payments of their water bill. There is a bill drop there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you opened the door and stood in the vestibule and sometime afterward you locked the door back again, is that correct?

Mr. PIERCE. Sometime afterward I did, but there was a whole lot which took place in between before I locked it back.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am interested in, did anyone come in the building?

Mr. PIERCE. No one came in the building. That, I can safely swear to. The reason I opened those two or three doors there which lock the vestibule there from the entrance to the building that allows people at night, or any hour of the day to come in and make payments, drop their water bill there, and this is the reason I refer to it as a vestibule, foyer.

Now, we are making 45 minutes, I would think or an hour’s change in time with relation to this particular occasion when I opened up. This happened after we had been told we couldn’t remain in the basement area.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come up from the basement area?

Mr. PIERCE. We came up from the basement area and porters asked me why they couldn’t stand----

Mr. HUBERT. When you came up from the basement area, who was operating the elevator?

Mr. PIERCE. McKinzie was operating the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Who came up with you?

Mr. PIERCE. I and Servance and Riggs and the telephone operator named Ruth.

Mr. HUBERT. And Kelly?

Mr. PIERCE. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Kelly? Did Kelly----

Mr. PIERCE. I don’t know a Kelly. Maybe her last name is Kelly.

Mr. HUBERT. No; this is a man called Edward Kelly. What about Henry, or Harold Fuqua?

Mr. PIERCE. Harold Fuqua remained in the basement momentarily. He remained in the basement and started to stay and--he did stay--at that time he wasn’t on the elevator when we came up. He did stay, but later he was also required to leave though his immediate job responsibility--he stated he was forced to leave later. At that time he stayed----

Mr. HUBERT. At any time was the service elevator locked in such a way that it couldn’t be operated, to your knowledge?

Mr. PIERCE. Are you asking me if there were a time when it was locked? That, I don’t know. I don’t think it was, but it is possible that it might have actually been locked but I don’t actually know.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the two elevators used during the week, were they locked?

Mr. PIERCE. They were turned off.

Mr. HUBERT. They couldn’t operate at all? It is possible to lock the service elevator so that it cannot move?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, now, that is an embarrassing question. In 5 years I have never seen it locked, but all other elevators that I know of do have locks on the outside, and undoubtedly it does, too, but in my mind I am trying to----

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t there a lock on the inside that you turn and the elevator simply becomes immobile?

Mr. PIERCE. Oh, there’s a switch where you can turn off the operation of it. I was thinking of a lock--oh, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you use a key, to turn the elevator off so that it can’t be used unless the key is used again to turn it on?

Mr. PIERCE. The elevator operator inside the car can.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you know if the elevator was locked in that way so that it couldn’t move without switching it back on again with the key?

Mr. PIERCE. To my knowledge, I don’t know. At that point in the story I would only say that it is my speculation that it probably was not locked, but it might have been switched off. I think maybe this is not the answer you are looking for.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have shown you a document consisting of three pages, purporting to be a report of an interview with you by a special agent Hardin and Wilkeson. I have seen it “Wilkinson,” spelled both ways.

Mr. PIERCE. He introduced himself to me as Wilkinson.

Mr. HUBERT. In order to identify it, I am marking it. “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5132, Deposition of E. E. Pierce,” signing my name, placing my name and that information on the first page. Putting my initial on the right-hand bottom of the second page, and my initials on the right-hand side of the third page at the bottom. You have, I think, read this document now identified as Exhibit 5132, have you not, Mr. Pierce?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if it is correct? Any changes you would like to make, anything of that sort?

Mr. PIERCE. None of any importance. I have been through there. As I read the article there it occurred to me that maybe a word might have been changed or a statement as written there might leave the meaning which in actual analysis was not exactly true. Like I explained it to you, that they referred to us as building engineers. If a call was sent out for the building engineer who was in charge on that day, I would go even though I am not a building engineer, but substantially, the copy of the statement is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, so that the record may show that both of us are talking about the same document, I would like you to place your name near mine here on the first page and your initials on the other two pages?

Mr. PIERCE. Full name?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just your regular signature.

Mr. PIERCE. That position on the first floor there, the vestibule there, that we were speaking of one door being open a while ago, we didn’t pursue that to the conclusion, but that is where I was. That is the point in the municipal building where I was at the time Oswald was shot, although, at that time, even until just a few short minutes, maybe like 5 until 5 or 8 minutes after he was shot did we know that he had even been shot, and it was immediately after that then that everyone left that position and I relocked the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Good enough.

Mr. PIERCE. The reason I had to unlock the door is because of human nature, like everyone else, we wanted to see what was taking place so, I unlocked the door and--so we could look down the side of the building toward the ramp area, which is the one right here [indicating], and see if anything was taking place.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now.----

Mr. PIERCE. Because at that time when the officers out there told us that we could not remain outside we would have to step back inside and close the doors, that is where we were. I wanted to finish that part of it so that you would understand about the door being unlocked, because I was there at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is all you have to say about that?

Mr. PIERCE. I think that it is pretty well covered in here.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think so, too.

Mr. PIERCE. Other than the actual time the door was locked after we left that area, but it was after he had been shot, and had it all----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him, of course, since?

Mr. PIERCE. I have many times since.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around anywhere on November 24?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any other date prior to the shooting?

Mr. PIERCE. No other date did I see him. As a matter of--I imagine at the time, because there were so many, and I hadn’t seen any--I didn’t even know he existed, and in the crowd of people that were there, it is very possible that he might have been in the group that I saw as I worked back and forth, but he could have been there, but I didn’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you have no----

Mr. PIERCE. Nothing but hearsay to the effect that he was there from time to time. It developed later that he had been in the building there several times.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you don’t know that from your own knowledge at all.

Mr. PIERCE. I do not know it, and even at that time I wouldn’t have known him if I would have seen him because I didn’t know he existed much less what he looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, one other area I would like to explore, there is an area called the subbasement, is there not?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is below the----

Mr. PIERCE. It is immediately----

Mr. HUBERT. Below the actual basement used for parking area?

Mr. PIERCE. That is this area.

Mr. HUBERT. In the city hall.

Mr. PIERCE. Right here.

Mr. HUBERT. In that subbasement you have all your actual machinery?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to get into the subbasement from the outside on Commerce Street?

Mr. PIERCE. On a weekend, normally; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a door, though?

Mr. PIERCE. There is a door that connects the subbasement with the staircase that leads to the sidewalk on Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. PIERCE. Now, that door is normally locked on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. Always locked on weekends.

Mr. PIERCE. Unless, inadvertently, someone left it open. It is supposed to be--and it is all the time when I am on duty, it is locked. Because I don’t want any----

Mr. HUBERT. Was it locked on November 24, all the time?

Mr. PIERCE. It was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in charge of it, and you say that it was locked?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes. Now, with this reservation being that the head porter, our--Mr. Servance, also has a key to that door, because the porters’ quarters, their locker room area and quarters, what we refer to as quarters generally is on the outside of that door in the police and courts building proper, and to get to it--their duties and in this garage area here, and in the municipal building, they are required to go in and out of that door to get their assigned jobs. He has a key, and when I say, “to my knowledge it was locked,” the only reservation is that at sometime he was there and present in that area, and it was locked unless opened by him, or a porter who was working.

Mr. HUBERT. So, if a person could get into this subbasement, he could go very easily into the basement, itself?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. No locked door between them?

Mr. PIERCE. No locked doors. It has the stairway that goes from the subbasement, the stairway level up to----

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a lock is there on that subbasement door that you are talking about? Do you need a key to get in?

Mr. PIERCE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you pass through the door does it automatically lock?

Mr. PIERCE. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That is a push button type lock. It is true, you can let yourself out of the subbasement and go out towards their area.

Mr. HUBERT. Porters’ area?

Mr. PIERCE. And when it closes back, it is locked. It locks, and to come back through you have to use your key again unless you are going to be there for some period of time, you want to be--you can push the button you are speaking of automatically and that releases itself automatically. If you push the button it remains unlocked for you.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be true also if a person was coming from the outside and wanted to get into the subbasement, or you--use the key to get in and when the doors shuts again, it is locked?

Mr. PIERCE. It is locked; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that about covers it, Mr. Pierce. Have you been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission to your knowledge, sir?

Mr. PIERCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. PIERCE. As for the--any personnel going in the garage area there at the time he was shot, I guess I am not in the position to say positively there was no one other than news personnel or media and police.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you don’t know that to be a fact, do you?

Mr. PIERCE. I was fixing to say that I would be willing, even though I am under oath here, to swear to tell the truth, that there was no one there, because those personnel we have mentioned here, Riggs and Fuqua, at the time we were forced to leave, and came up, you know, I mentioned he remained in the basement momentarily there until it was evident that he also would have to leave. Then he and Harold went to the--because of the availability there of a television set, went to the police locker room lounge.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that of your own knowledge?

Mr. PIERCE. I do know that.

Mr. HUBERT. Or have you been told?

Mr. PIERCE. Well, as a matter of security I mentioned it, because after they got to that position then they couldn’t even come back and were required to stay there.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you know that only because other people told you that?

Mr. PIERCE. That is where they were required to stay. That is where they spent the remainder of their time, because they could not come back and rejoin us.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they left that building to get to the police recreation room?

Mr. PIERCE. From the elevator area here--let’s see; no, I don’t know if they walked directly across to a stairway there, another stairway that goes to the police locker lounge other than the stairway we are speaking of, comes from Commerce Street down to the subbasement itself, and in the building. A stairway which policemen use all the time to go down to the lockers.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean from the municipal building?

Mr. PIERCE. No; from the garage area.

Mr. HUBERT. From the garage area, right.

Mr. PIERCE. But, from the municipal building that is not so. From being required to stay there and unable to even leave there, even now, like I said, I can’t possibly state there was no one else there, but I do know they weren’t in this area, because they were supposed to be--stay where they were and----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they got out of the municipal building that they were in with you to get to the police room, from your own knowledge? Not what somebody else told you, but from your own knowledge?

Mr. PIERCE. From my own knowledge; no, sir. I don’t know. Now, there was a small interval of time elapsed when we first left the basement area here on the elevator and came up to the first floor. McKinzie was the operator of the elevator, which has a buzzer system on it for calling, and as such, is required to answer calls to whatever floor the personnel is calling for elevator service there, because that is the only elevator in operation, and he did answer a call or two probably from the phone operators up on five, like I say, when we left the basement area and went up to one, he was there, too, and in that small interval of time, I would say about 10 minutes, he came back and reparked the elevator there on one and said that--told me that a policeman had told him not to answer any more calls on that elevator. To even remove the elevator completely from the basement area, and don’t answer any more calls until notified later. And that--and that elevator stayed there then at that point there is one of the things that entered my mind a while ago when you were speaking of--about the elevator being shut off, and the operator can turn a switch and turn it out of service, and he brought up the elevator and told me, and Servance was there, at the time, and Servance is his immediate boss, and told Servance that he had been instructed not to answer any more calls on that elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I asked you whether or not you know how Riggs and Fuqua got out of the building? What way they used to get out of the building?

Mr. PIERCE. Now, they left us where we were there in that small interval of time and it is possible that they went back down and walked across to the stairway that goes to the police locker room, is--that is the only way they could get to it, if they took that route, actually, the question was, “Do I know how?”, and I’m not certain, because I did not follow them or go with them.

The easiest way, across the other stairway and went down to the police locker room or that stairway from Commerce Street down to the porters’ quarters, and the subbasement where our equipment is, from that stairway there is a door that is locked there, also. They would have to have a key. If they got in the police locker room there is a fire escape from the locker room out to the outside in case they ever have to leave, but you cannot go into it without a key.

If they used that route, they had to use a key, which I don’t know if anybody has a key or not.

It is the only two ways they could have gotten there, and at that time when they were immediately clearing out of this area, it is very possible the policemen, knowing that they were building maintenance employees, and been seeing them for years, especially John the head porter, why, and Harold Fuqua in charge of parking of cars in this basement area, might have said it was all right for them to take these stairs down to the locker room as they were going to have to leave this area anyway. They could either have gone to the--they could either have gone from the municipal building down the stairs or permitted them to go back into the police and courts building.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, they have gotten out of the municipal building by going through the service elevator, through the alleyway door and out through the alley to Main Street, couldn’t they?

Mr. PIERCE. They could have, but they couldn’t have gotten--they would have to come back into this basement area down this ramp in order to get into where the stairway is to go down to the police locker room.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, they could have gone down the police department building entrance on Harwood, down into this basement.

Mr. PIERCE. They would have had to----

Mr. HUBERT. Walked around the block, so to speak?

Mr. PIERCE. And come down the elevator and walked from there down to the locker room where they did stay.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it. I think that’s it. Do we have everything that you know?

Mr. PIERCE. If it be of help. I am privileged to be of help. If I have, I’m glad.

Mr. HUBERT. Good----

Mr. PIERCE. In fact, I trust that I have. At least, we ascertained--like I told her. I might have written it myself, but, actually, it was written from statements that I made, so that is----

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5132?

Mr. PIERCE. The statement that I read there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, you can go out this way.

TESTIMONY OF ALFREADIA RIGGS

The testimony of Alfreadia Riggs was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Alfreadia Riggs. Mr. Riggs, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, to you, Mr. Riggs, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Riggs, you have been--appeared here by virtue of a request made that you do appear.

Under the rules adopted then by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish to waive the 3-day notice and testify now?

Mr. RIGGS. I will testify now.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand so that you may be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name.

Mr. RIGGS. Alfreadia Riggs.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. RIGGS. 35.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. RIGGS. Right now I live at 49--I mean 5942 Highland Hill Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Highland Hill?

Mr. RIGGS. Highland Village--Village Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Highland Village Drive. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Riggs?

Mr. RIGGS. I’m a porter.

Mr. HUBERT. For the city of Dallas?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At city hall?

Mr. RIGGS. At city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. RIGGS. Oh, approximately 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I was--drove a truck.

Mr. HUBERT. For the city?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; for the Sunshine Laundry.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed as a porter at the municipal building in Dallas?

Mr. RIGGS. That is approximately 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Seven years. In other words, all the time you have been working there----

Mr. RIGGS. That is only----

Mr. HUBERT. For Dallas Public Works Department you have worked in that building?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your hours?

Mr. RIGGS. Generally from 6 until 2:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Six in the morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that every day.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes; every day except Saturday and Sunday. Actually, sometimes I work weekends. We do a little extra work on Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you get paid extra for that?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who determines when you do extra work?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, the head porter and our supervising engineer, Mr. Homer Garland usually picks out certain things for us to do, and the head porter will tell us.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the head porter?

Mr. RIGGS. Charles Gill.

Mr. HUBERT. G-i-l-l?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were working and on duty on November 24, the date that Oswald was shot.

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why were you working that day?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I was doing work inside the new city hall. Well, in the old building. We was cleaning the floors, because we had quite a few photographers in around, and they wanted us to keep the stuff off the floor.

Mr. HUBERT. By the old building you mean the building now occupied by the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The new building that you refer to is the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Municipal building, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for work?

Mr. RIGGS. I would say 7 o’clock, 7 o’clock that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Who ordered you to go to work?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, Gill.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked the day before, too?

Mr. RIGGS. This was on----

Mr. HUBERT. Sunday.

Mr. RIGGS. Sunday, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked on Saturday?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I don’t believe I worked that Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you worked on Friday night until Saturday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; I was absent, actually, I worked, you know--it is my regular work through--weekly day from 6 until 2:45, and like I say, if you work weekends, usually work from 7 until 3. Actually, from 6 and--until 3. Usually come in a little earlier at various times, but this day I believe I came in at 7.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is that on Saturday, the day before this day, did you work your regular hours or----

Mr. RIGGS. I’m trying to think, because we had quite a bit of work that weekend, because actually, we had quite a few people over in the other building. They sent different ones. Only time I remember is--that day I don’t know whether I worked that night before then, because I had worked quite a bit on that weekend, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, for the purposes of identification, I’m going to mark a document which purports to be a photostatic copy of a sign-in sheet.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of porters and maids at the city hall on November 24, 1963, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit No. 5128, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs.” I am signing my name, and then another document also purporting to be sign-in sheet for the city hall porters and maids, dated November 23, 1963, and I am marking that at the bottom, “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5128-A, Deposition of Alfreadia Riggs.” I am signing my name on it. Now, I will ask you to look at this document that has been marked Exhibit 5128, and see if your name is on it in print, and if your handwriting is on that document?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your--next to your printed name is that your signature?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the two columns that appear, “Sign in 7 a.m.,” “Sign out 5:30 p.m.”--no, 3 p.m., is that your handwriting, too?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Both of those?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, look at the document marked 5128-A. Next to your printed name I see A.R., those are your initials?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a sign-in 11 p.m., and a sign-out at 7 a.m., does that mean you went on duty at 11 o’clock on that Saturday night, and got off at 7 o’clock in the morning, Sunday, or does it mean you signed in at 11 o’clock on Friday night and got off at 7 o’clock on Saturday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. This, I believe I worked that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Which night?

Mr. RIGGS. When it says--Saturday, 23.

Mr. HUBERT. Until Sunday morning?

Mr. RIGGS. Until Sunday morning. That is when I was signing out, and I worked right on through that Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t go home at all?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; not until 3 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what it amounts to is that you started at 11 o’clock Saturday night and carried clean on through until that Sunday, but you signed in and signed out twice?

Mr. RIGGS. We usually have to do that on two different sheets.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were assigned particularly to what location?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, just 11--from 11 to 7, it was on the elevators.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RIGGS. From 11 o’clock that night until 7 o’clock the next morning I was on the elevators, and then on this other deal, from 7 until 3 was cleaning up the Police and Courts Building.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got off the elevator at 7 o’clock, who relieved you?

Mr. RIGGS. McKinzie, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Louis McKinzie?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you finish cleaning up the police building?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, we never did finish cleaning it up, because after the incident came about----

Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was shot, you mean?

Mr. RIGGS. There was so much disturbance in the halls, actually, I was never able to get back over there in the building to clean it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the municipal building at any time during the 24th?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not talking about the police building, I am talking about the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any work in the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get from the municipal building to--no, from the police building where you were working to the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I came down through the basement. It wasn’t--trying to think all who were down in the basement. We was all standing around. It was Harold, Gill, Kelly, and if I’m not mistaken, I think Pierce all standing around in the basement, and the police was searching the rafters and checking the cars for guns and things, and finally whenever sergeant--actually I don’t know exactly his name--gave orders for them to clear out everybody in the basement down there, so, we got on the elevator and went to the first floor in order to look out the door. We--to see when they got him out to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RIGGS. I think Servance had opened up the front door in the municipal building, and we was standing between--which it has two doors, one stays locked all the time, and one stays open because they have a meter where people put their water deposits in a little box. He had opened the doors on the inside, and we was standing between the two doors.

Mr. HUBERT. Which doors are you talking about?

Mr. RIGGS. On Commerce Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. Who opened that door?

Mr. RIGGS. Servance.

Mr. HUBERT. Servance. Now, what other entrances are there to the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. RIGGS. How many entrances?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; how can you get into it?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, we have one that leaves from the first floor to the Police and Courts Building, which it stays shut over the weekend, or on the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a metal gate?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Swinging gate like an accordion. It swings out and blocks the corridor that runs between the two buildings?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that open or closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Closed.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that----

Mr. RIGGS. Kept closed.

Mr. HUBERT. Who keeps it closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, usually the porter that works at night closes it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check it to see that it was closed?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I looked and it seemed to be closed actually.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that this gate, like a metal gate that runs from the floor to the ceiling, was pulled to, but you don’t know if it was locked?

Mr. RIGGS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that door?

Mr. RIGGS. It is possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to lock that corridor?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have that door, you have an entrance from Commerce Street, and there is an entrance on Main Street?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the condition of that door on Sunday?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, it was--well, I presume it was closed, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it usually?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; during the weekend the old building is closed. Like I say, I couldn’t verify to say that it was closed or it was open, because actually, I did not check it, but----

Mr. HUBERT. You knew normally that it is closed?

Mr. RIGGS. It is closed, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it locks so that you can’t get in?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the entrance to the building, that entrance and exit to the building, that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. RIGGS. The heavy back door back there?

Mr. HUBERT. There is a back door back there, isn’t there?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that door remain open, or closed, or what?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, it remains closed, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Closed all the time?

Mr. RIGGS. All the time. We usually keep a key on the elevator that will open the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. The door that goes to the alley?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; that goes into this alley, but it will not open either the front door or the Harwood side or Main side.

Mr. HUBERT. That key is kept on a ring in the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, to go from the main floor of the municipal building, that is, from the first floor to that alleyway, you have to go through the service elevator, don’t you?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the service elevator has two doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. One that opens up on the Main Street corridor of the municipal building, and the other one that opens up on a corridor and leads to the back door that leads to the alleyway?

Mr. RIGGS. To the alleyway.

Mr. HUBERT. And the key to that back door is in the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. On the elevator, yes, sir. Now, there is another way, too, on the first floor that you can go down the stairway and go to the basement from the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the fire escape?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is never closed?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that if anybody is on the first floor they can get into the basement by using the fire escape, or using the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, besides the service elevator that we already talked about, the one that has two doors, there are two other elevators on that floor?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; but they usually cut off. They don’t have but one elevator, and call it the freight elevator, the one that runs over the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. The other two were closed?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They were closed that day?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; they were cut off.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I think you were saying that Mr. Servance opened the Commerce Street door, is that correct?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If you will, tell us about that.

Mr. RIGGS. Well, after we left from the basement and went to the first floor, he opened the door on the Commerce Street side, and we stood up there between the two doors, approximately, I’d say 45 minutes to an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say between the two doors, you mean that on Commerce Street there is an outside door, and a sort of a vestibule, and then inside doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of wind-break doors?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; which actually, the outside door stays open because they have, like I said, they have the deposit meter where you can pay your bills and they keep it open.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the outside doors on the Commerce Street side are always open, but then the inside doors also on the Commerce Street side are closed on weekends?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Servance opened the inside door and then where did you all go?

Mr. RIGGS. We stood in between.

Mr. HUBERT. In--you never did go out the outside door?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because we had an officer outside the door. He was standing on the steps there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that?

Mr. RIGGS. After we stood around there a certain length of time, I don’t know exactly how long, I’d say approximately 45 minutes or an hour, then the armored car came up, and they started backing down the ramp, and Harold and myself decided that we would----

Mr. HUBERT. Pardon. Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. Fuqua; yes, sir. We decided we would try to go down in the police locker room and maybe watch it on television. We came from the first floor----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you left the Commerce Street entrance--did you close it? Did you lock it up?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; because Servance and the rest of them were still standing up there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you left before they did, and you don’t know whether he locked it or not?

Mr. RIGGS. Then only Harold and myself left. We came in the elevator, I got the keys, unlocked the back door, and I locked it back. I still had the keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went through the elevator door, did you leave it open?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The elevator door that is on the alleyway side was left open?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you took the key out of the elevator for the back door on the alleyway, and you opened that back door?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you kept the key?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you leave that back door open?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what do you mean?

Mr. RIGGS. I made sure I locked it back, because actually we usually are supposed to lock the door, keep it locked, and when I unlocked the door from the inside and in turn, took the key and put it on the other side and locked it back.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. RIGGS. We left from the alleyway and walked to the left as we went out the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. Towards Main Street?

Mr. RIGGS. Towards Main Street, yes, sir; and got to Main Street, turned left going towards Harwood, and then as we passed--which is a driveway that leads down to the ramp on the Main Street side, well, we sort of glanced down through that-a-way to see, you understand. We saw that armored car which we couldn’t see from up there on the top. Then we left, and went to Harwood, made a left, which was going towards Commerce off of Main Street, which is on Harwood, and as you get to the--between the blocks of the building, half way, they have a--steps that leads down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. On the Harwood Street side of the steps that lead down into the basement? Did you go down those steps?

Mr. RIGGS. Actually, Harold asked me to go down and check and see if it would be all right for us to go down because we were under the impression that they had the police--had a police officer on the door. After I went down and checked and there wasn’t anyone and then I turned and told him to come down and he and I came on down too, and well, the photographers and all was in the basement. All--we passed on by, and went down to the police basement, which is--opposite from the prop room. You have to go down the hall and down the steps.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you went down into the locker room? That is where all the policemen have their lockers and there’s a recreation room and television and----

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; and television and--and there was a jail attendant down there, actually he didn’t work in the jail office, he is not a policeman, but he works in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name? Do you know?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I really don’t. He told us that he didn’t think they were going to show it on television. He imagined they were going to run a tape and show it later on. Said, “Well, we should have stayed up there. Maybe we could have seen him when they brought him out--” While we were down there I bought a little can of soup, or chili or something, and I was eating as we came back up to the--and we stood on the opposite wall from the corridor that leads out to the basement from the hallway that goes out to the basement, and where it has a door--I’m sorry, I couldn’t explain, but actually it leads to the basement, goes where they park the cars. We was standing up--opposite--in other words, two corridors, you understand, separate that, and well, we was standing up there maybe about 5 minutes, one of the newspapermen said, “Here he come, here he come,” and well, we got on the other side of the wall and was trying to look, well, so much rushing and all that actually we didn’t see anything, and then did hear the shot, didn’t actually sound like a shot, sort of muffled out.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the basement at that time?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street side, or the Main Street side?

Mr. RIGGS. It was in between, because it is--if you had been down there, there is a way that comes through the basement, pass by the jail office and corridor where you turn left, and go down there, turn right, and police assembly room is down at the far end, and go up there way, and go----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go through the engineer’s room?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; this is down in the police building where the records, the information is.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps if you look at this thing over here, this mockup, you will be able to clarify this. Now, this is the jail office.

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And see back over there is the parking area. This mockup doesn’t show the elevators, but I have a map here which is a chart, really, of that same area only more extensive. For instance, here is the jail office, here are these two ramps, and this mockup only goes to here, you see?

Mr. RIGGS. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what I want you to do is to identify this first by marking as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5129, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” I am signing my name on it, and so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I’m asking you to put your name below mine on there. Now, I want you to look at the mockup first and locate first where you were when the shot was fired, then we’ll mark it on the map.

Mr. RIGGS. Well, actually, they didn’t have it on here, just this part here is extended out, see what I am referring to is this corridor leads down here that goes to the police assembly room, this part here is--corridor here leads towards Commerce Street side. Now, it has--along here it has a corner here, that is what--two corridors there, and this is just a wall what leads into the elevators. Now, when--actually when they--when they was bringing him out, we were standing on this side, and when they brought him out we moved from here over to here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, sir, you have testified that actually, your first position is not shown on either the mockup or the map?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, if it were on the map, it would be shown at the bottom of the map?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you moved up to a position about here [indicating]?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I am marking an “X” and putting a circle around it as to the position you moved to when you heard the shot, right?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking in my own handwriting, “Position of Alfreadia Riggs at the time of shooting.” I am putting that in a circle and connecting it to the smaller circle with the “X” in it. The smaller circle with the “X” in it being the spot at which Alfreadia Riggs testified he was standing at the time of the shot, is that correct?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And Fuqua was with you?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you had come from a position that, if it were on the map, would be toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the position of the service elevator here?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After you had been told to get out of the parking area marked here, and you had gone up with these others on the service elevator to the first floor, did you ever get back into this part on the map called parking area?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, only after everything was over.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but prior to the shooting, you never did get back?

Mr. RIGGS. Never did get back down there; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had gone through the service elevator, not on the area shown by this Exhibit 5129, because that is the basement area?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But on that same service elevator on the next floor up?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And went through that elevator to the back door, turned to your left onto Main Street, passed the ramp on Main Street, went over to Harwood Street, went down into the basement area through the Harwood Street----

Mr. RIGGS. Entrance; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Entrance that goes down to the basement. Then you went to the recreation room and finally came to the position you indicated just before the shooting?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get back to the main floor of the municipal building after the shooting?

Mr. RIGGS. After the shooting--during the excitement and that, during the excitement Harold and I, we went over to the police information room over there to get out of the way of the traffic. The police was all--they was closing all the entrances and wasn’t letting anyone in and letting no one out, so, in order to keep from being in the way, we went inside the information room, and stayed over there, I imagine 30 minutes, 20 or 30 minutes, and Harold asked chief--I think it was Chief Lumpkin for him to escort us from there to the basement, because--I think he wanted to go home, or his time was up or something. He wanted to get out of there, because it made him pretty nervous, and Chief Lumpkin escorted us through the corridor there that leads to the basement to the parking area, and we went over there and stayed, or was down in the basement, and after the time elapsed, I went down in our porter room and stayed around there until time for me to get off.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the keys that you had?

Mr. RIGGS. I put them back in the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. You put them back in the elevator on what floor?

Mr. RIGGS. In the basement there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the elevator down in the basement then?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, I called it down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was McKinzie operating the elevator?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you put the keys back?

Mr. RIGGS. I don’t know for sure. During the excitement and all of that, I think--I don’t know whether he and I or someone got to talking about the incident, and I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did not go out through the Main Street door when you went out with Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Back in the alley?

Mr. RIGGS. Back in the alley; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had the keys with you all the time?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you take the keys with you?

Mr. RIGGS. Well, because there was only this once that--well, actually, I usually, normally have a key. As a matter of fact, I have quite a few keys. I didn’t have mine with me during that time, and that was the only one during that time that would open up that door that was available, and it stays in the elevator, we close that, because lots of times some of those porters in the other building will use the keys in the elevator to put trash out this back door.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that door, as a matter of fact, can only be opened from either side. You need a key no matter which way you are coming from?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be set so that it is open?

Mr. RIGGS. You have to unlock it from the inside and going out, to lock it back, you have to lock it from the outside. In coming back through you have to unlock it from the outside with the key.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I understood that that back door would not open in any way without a key so that if you went through it with a key it would close by itself and you would need a key to get back in again?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t put a snap on that to keep it open?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no snap?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I don’t think. You have to use a key.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform that day?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That uniform, is a well-known uniform?

Mr. RIGGS. It is gray with red letters. It has “City of Dallas,” on the left side, and name on the right of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name sewed on?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir, embroidered on.

Mr. HUBERT. Right.

Mr. RIGGS. First initial and last name.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am showing you a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5130, deposition of Alfreadia Riggs,” and putting my name on the first page and since it has a second page I am marking on the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I would like you to read that report and see if it reflects the truth, as far as you know it?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record can show that we are both talking about the same document, I would ask you to sign your name below mine on the margin there, or next to it, and place your initials on the second page as I have done. Now, you have signed your name on the first page of Exhibit 5130, and your--put your initials on the second page. Have you read it?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth?

Mr. RIGGS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Any corrections or alterations to be made, or anything?

Mr. RIGGS. My--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that if we consider the facts stated in Exhibit 5130 and the facts as stated by you in this deposition that we have everything whatsoever that you now know about this matter?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing that is left out?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything is correct?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir. Everything is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I should have added that if we also consider the information you have testified to on Exhibit 5128 and 5128-A, that is the sign-in sheet, we have the full information of that?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been previously interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not been interviewed previously by me, or anybody who identified themselves as being connected with the President’s Commission?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Alfreadia, I just want to get clear once again on one point. Is it possible, at all, that you went out of the municipal building through the Main Street entrance?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. No, sir; we definitely went through the back door.

Mr. HUBERT. You and Fuqua?

Mr. RIGGS. Yes, sir; me and Harold Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN OLRIDGE SERVANCE

The testimony of John Olridge Servance was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John O. Servance.

Mr. Servance, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Servance. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon any fact relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Servance, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly the opening of doors and so forth of the municipal office or building. Now, you have appeared here by informal request made for you to come. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are actually entitled to a 3-day written notice before you can be required to come, but on the other hand, the rules of the Commission provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he sees fit to do so. Since you have not had the 3-day written notice, I will ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice and have your testimony taken now?

Mr. SERVANCE. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand so that you may be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SERVANCE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.

Mr. SERVANCE. My name is John Olridge Servance. [Spelling] S-e-r-v-a-n-c-e, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Servance. How old are you, sir?

Mr. SERVANCE. I am--beg your pardon, I am 54 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. SERVANCE. I live at Lancaster, 319 Lancaster, Hutchins Road. Lancaster Hutchins, 319 Lancaster Hutchins Road, Lancaster, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?

Mr. SERVANCE. I am a--the head porter, I believe that is the way it is listed, foreman or supervisor, you might call it, over both buildings at night. The city hall and the municipal city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Those buildings annex, actually, not two separate buildings?

Mr. SERVANCE. Some connections.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, will you--we’ll go into that in a minute. How long have you been so occupied, sir?

Mr. SERVANCE. Will be 17 years the 2d day of July, or let’s say 16.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been head porter out there?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, I would presume about 15 years. I was head porter before I come down there with some other part of the city. I was with the water department.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document which purports to be a report of an interview with you by FBI Agent Jack Peden, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964, Exhibit 5131, deposition of John O. Servance,” and I am signing my name on this document which is a one-page document, and so that the record may show that we are both speaking about the same document would you place your name below mine on that document, sir? You may use this pen.

Mr. SERVANCE. Below yours?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just anywhere there to the side.

Mr. SERVANCE. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Servance, have you read this document?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5131, which you have just signed?

Mr. SERVANCE. I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct and true?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any alterations or modifications that you wish to make to it?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, it isn’t. Now, I mean, as far as I understood it. As far as I could remember, that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you have just read it, haven’t you?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it seems to be correct?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know Alfreadia Riggs?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Henry Fuqua?

Mr. SERVANCE. Hal Fuqua.

Mr. HUBERT. Hal Fuqua, is it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them in the basement that day?

Mr. SERVANCE. I saw them in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. And all of you were sent up the service elevator by the police to the first floor of the municipal building, is that right?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It is true that at one time during the course of the morning there you opened the inside door on the Commerce Street entrance of the municipal building so you all could look out?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well; yes, sir. I did, I opened the door. We stood--there’s a glass vestibule, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You stood in this vestibule. The outside doors to Commerce Street remain open all the time, and the inside door is locked. You had a key and you unlocked it and all of you stood in the vestibule for a while, is that right?

Mr. SERVANCE. For a while, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to Riggs and Fuqua? Do you know?

Mr. SERVANCE. They was standing there. What I mean, we were there during--all the excitement, I don’t know--everything just--I don’t know what way--I thought they were still there. I didn’t see them. I mean, that is--

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the vestibule, did you lock the door?

Mr. SERVANCE. I locked the door, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody come in through the Commerce Street entrance while you were standing there?

Mr. SERVANCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Could anyone have come in without your noticing it?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; they couldn’t have.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, first place, the door wasn’t opened all the time, just for a few moments, and the next place there was a policeman out on the outside didn’t allow us to come--and give us orders to go back in and shut it.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, and anyhow, if anyone had come in probably you would have seen them, isn’t that correct?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mr. SERVANCE. Never seen him before.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t pass through that door?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. And you definitely locked it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what other entrances or exits are there to the first floor of the municipal building?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, you would have--the first floor, we have a gate leading from the city hall now, the old building from the municipal----

Mr. HUBERT. The police building?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; police building, I’ll put it that way, it was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, a corridor that connects the old police building and the new municipal building?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it has a sort of an accordianlike gate which spreads across the whole thing and runs from ceiling to floor?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. It was locked this day, the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. It was? You know that to be a fact?

Mr. SERVANCE. I made sure. I locked it and then doublechecked it in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. It was never opened, then, as far as you know?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Main Street entrance?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, it was locked; no one went out there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you know that to be a fact, too?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the two elevators other than the service elevator?

Mr. SERVANCE. They were cut off, completely off.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, every evening when I went there, every night they cut them off. Well, then, I tested them to see were they off.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you test them?

Mr. SERVANCE. Mashed the button to see if it don’t run.

Mr. HUBERT. You tried on this morning to get--to make sure the elevators were cut off?

Mr. SERVANCE. Their power is cut off. They are cut off. You have to go up on the penthouse on top and cut them off.

Mr. HUBERT. They are cut off every night?

Mr. SERVANCE. And on weekends. Weekends; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What other ways are there to get into the municipal building from the first floor? We have Commerce Street and Main Street.

Mr. SERVANCE. They have the rear exit there.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, you see, the service elevator has the double doors, you open both of those doors there and go out the service elevator, you can go out now, to the service elevator; we do have a way that will unlock--well, in fact, have a chain of keys there and that if anyone--anybody that is working on any of those floors during the weekends, well, they can get those keys and go in there and out the back, if they want.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that back door to the building, that leads to what?

Mr. SERVANCE. Oh, it leads to the alley.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads to the alley? Is there a key in the elevator that opens the back door?

Mr. SERVANCE. They were open; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with how that back door works?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can the back door be opened at any time without the key?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In there--any button that you can push so you don’t need a key?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, to go to that door, once it is closed, now, coming from either way, from inside the building or from outside the building, you have to have a key to make that door operate?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; you really do. No, no, now, you can push shut, you can snap the door and remain open.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want that door to stay open you’ve got to prop it open. Once the door is closed you need a key no matter which way you are coming?

Mr. SERVANCE. It is a door you have to lock, you know, you don’t--it has got a catch there, but you have to lock it, you know, it is not a turn--you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that you can go through that door and then when it closes you--it is not locked unless you turn it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, that’s right. See, we can trip it off, you have got a double lock, you understand. You know the doors got a night latch like--you know, but in order to lock that door it has got another lock in there that we turn.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way: Suppose a man uses the key to get through the door from the outside of the building, now, the door closes shut automatically, doesn’t it?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it lock so that you need the key to get back inside, or not?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It does not lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. It does not lock. In order to lock it from the alleyway side so that nobody can come in you have got to turn it. Put the key and turn.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise the door is open?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s go through that again, because it is very important and I want to get it for sure. That door operates only with a key, that is to say, from the inside. You can’t just use the door without a key from the inside?

Mr. SERVANCE. Let’s put it this way. Once you lock the door you have to have a key to unlock it. Now, see, you shut that door, it catches, but it is not locked. See what I mean? But in order for that door to be locked we have to put a key in there and turn that lock and let that come out and go into that socket, you see?

Mr. HUBERT. So, a man who is going through those doors leading from the municipal building to the alleyway uses the key to open the door to get out into the alleyway. Now, when he leaves and goes down the alleyway and has taken these keys with him, is that door then open so that somebody can come in without a key or do you need a key to get back in again?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, if--usually, if the fellow’s got the key, he usually locks it when he goes out.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if he locks it back when he got--when he goes out but he didn’t lock it again----

Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need no key.

Mr. HUBERT. The door is open?

Mr. SERVANCE. You don’t need a key.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge whether Riggs and Fuqua went through that alley door that morning?

Mr. SERVANCE. I couldn’t say. I mean, I don’t--I mean I don’t recall that. There is a possibility that they could have, but I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know from your own knowledge?

Mr. SERVANCE. After the excitement came and hollering of the elevators--I mean the sirens going we were watching the armored car being backed to the entrance of that--cars coming out of there from the basement and if they did, I didn’t know it, I mean, I can’t recall it. There is a possibility, but actually to say, I couldn’t say it.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in uniforms, too?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; they were in uniforms and working around there. In fact, Riggs was in both of the buildings, you know. He was a porter there that day for certain, and he had access of those things. What he did--I mean, I only seen him there, and he disappeared, I didn’t notice it.

Mr. HUBERT. There is one other way you can go down from the municipal building to the basement, and that is through the fire escape, that is to say, the door to the main floor of the municipal building is not locked, and you can get to the staircase that way, can’t you?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the door at the bottom of the stairway, which is the entrance of the basement is always open so that you can get into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Not the weekends. You have to--you can come out, but you can’t go in.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean. You can go in from the municipal building. You can go through the fire escape doors?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. They are not locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. They are locked; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They are locked on Sundays?

Mr. SERVANCE. Locked on Sundays, but, you see, you can come out, you have a big bar that you can mash and come out of but you lock it and you can’t go in.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I right in saying then that from the municipal floor, first floor of the municipal building----

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You cannot go into the staircase?

Mr. SERVANCE. Not during the weekend. They keep it locked, or either at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Always locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. Always locked, but you can always come out of there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in other words, if you are in the staircase itself, you can come out?

Mr. SERVANCE. Come out, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But, a man on the first floor of the municipal building can’t go from the first floor to the basement by use of that staircase, can he?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes; inside he can.

Mr. HUBERT. No; once they get inside the staircase, yes, but suppose he is standing on--in the lobby on the first floor, can he get through those fire escape doors and get into the staircase and then go down and out into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, now, let me kind of clear this. You see, you have three sets of those. You have two in the building, and one that comes on the outside on the Commerce Street side. Is that the one you are speaking of?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am thinking of the one in the main lobby.

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, in the main lobby, if you are in the main lobby you can through the door, go in the door, down from the staircase, on down in the basement and go out, but you couldn’t come in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it to you----

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes; you can come in. You can go out or come in. See, those doors are not locked up there.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I thought. You said that door is locked on weekends, but you wish to correct that now?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; here’s what I was speaking of, now, when you get in the basement, when you go down to the basement those doors are locked as far as coming in.

Mr. HUBERT. From the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. From the basement, that’s right. In other words, if you are in the basement you cannot use that fire escape door to get into that staircase; that’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, if you are in the staircase you can get into the basement. Now, the doors to the main floor of the municipal building leading to the staircase that we are talking about, are not closed, they are not locked, are they?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think a little earlier you testified that they were locked and the only way you can use them would be coming from the staircase into the first floor of the municipal building, and I want to get it straight as to whether or not you can use the opposite direction or, go from the first floor of the municipal building into the staircase----

Mr. SERVANCE. Wait a minute. Now, let’s see here--try to correct it best I can. Let’s say I am out there in that corridor there, and we’ll say--we’ll just assume that that is the corridor there in the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SERVANCE. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now----

Mr. SERVANCE. And assume that the room we are in is the staircase room. All right, anywhere you are on the first floor, or any of those floors you can always go into those staircases, fire escapes, none of those are not locked.

Mr. HUBERT. Except the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Except the basement where you come out, that’s right. None of them are not locked, I am sorry, I got confused there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is right. You can go from the corridor into the staircase on the first floor, because those doors do not lock?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, once you get into the staircase on the first floor you can go down into the basement and go through the basement door into the basement, but you couldn’t come through the door from the basement because it is locked?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; on the weekends; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is straight now. You said there was another fire-escape door?

Mr. SERVANCE. One more.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that?

Mr. SERVANCE. That is the one where we were standing there, when--one comes out of the building through the entrance right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads----

Mr. SERVANCE. On the Commerce side.

Mr. HUBERT. Leads to the fire-escape stairway?

Mr. SERVANCE. Well, it is a fire-escape stairway.

Mr. HUBERT. And it operates exactly on--like the other one we are talking about?

Mr. SERVANCE. And it ends there on the first floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t go down into the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Doesn’t go down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. So, that if you were on the first floor of the municipal building that staircase that we are talking about on the Commerce Street side does not lead you to the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The one we are talking about before is on the Main Street side of the elevator?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; you see, you got to--you go in front of the hall, and you have got a cross corridor there.

Mr. HUBERT. Two corridors that cross each other?

Mr. SERVANCE. Yes, sir; and on each corridor there is a door comes from--winds around and so it comes down.

Mr. HUBERT. But, only one of them goes to the basement?

Mr. SERVANCE. Only one goes to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. The only one that goes to the basement is the one we are talking about?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, only one, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The other fire escape stops at the first floor?

Mr. SERVANCE. Stops at the main floor and do not go down into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right, I think that it is clear. Now, has there been any conferences between you, Mr. Servance, and any member of the President’s Commission prior to this deposition?

Mr. SERVANCE. No, sir; nobody.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that between this document number 5131 which you identified and your deposition that we have the whole story about everything you now know about this matter?

Mr. SERVANCE. That’s right, best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF A. M. EBERHARDT

The testimony of A. M. Eberhardt was taken at 2:40 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, and also for your advice and information, my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel’s office of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive order of the President of the United States and a congressional resolution. The Executive order is Order No. 11130, which was issued on November 29, 1963, and the congressional resolution is Resolution No. 137. As a result of these two official acts, the Commission has promulgated a set of rules to conduct the proceedings, and in conformance with those rules and the Executive order and the congressional resolution, I have been designated to take a sworn deposition from you, Detective Eberhardt.

Now, the general area of the investigation of the Commission is to ascertain, evaluate and report back to President Johnson on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the later murder of Lee Oswald. In particular as to you, we are concerned about the events that led up to the death of Lee Oswald and most particularly about Jack Ruby, but we are concerned about anything else that you might have to offer the Commission that you think is pertinent. The Commission is not an investigatory agency in the sense that a grand jury is.

We don’t have any authority to prosecute for any crimes. The only crime that could be committed in connection with this investigation that we can do anything about is perjury, and our primary concern in this matter is frankly one of national security and not prevention of crime. The most obvious thing is to learn how we can prevent the kind of things that have happened, well, since November 22, from recurring again, but it goes much further than that, because there are matters that transcend simply the protection of the President, there are problems, real problems of national security that are involved in this, and there are worries about it that are involved, too, because whenever you have the President murdered, you can’t exclude the possibility that there is some political group or even nonpolitical group interested in killing the President of the United States, and it is compounded when you find that the man that is charged with the murder of the President himself dies.

So it becomes very important for us to learn what the truth is, and we want to do this in a way that will encourage people to come forward and tell us the truth, and if there are problems in connection with this, nobody can be close to this without having some personal problems or personal involvement in this thing, we want to try to do what we can to minimize these kinds of problems for you and to encourage you to come forward with whatever you know that may be of value to us.

Now, you in particular are appearing here as a result of a general request which the General Counsel of the Commission made to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are actually entitled to a 3-day written notice before any deposition is taken; however, the rules also provide that you can waive the notice, and I will ask you now if you want us to provide you with a written notice or if you are willing to waive that notice and go forward with the deposition?

Mr. EBERHARDT. It is fine to go on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. You are also entitled to have an attorney here before the Commission, and we do have many witnesses who come here with attorneys, and you are not here now, I see, with counsel, but if you would like to have an attorney, consult with one beforehand, we would be happy to adjourn at this point and let you come back whenever you feel like it.

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t need any counsel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you, then, if you will raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. EBERHARDT. A. M. Eberhardt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you just have a first initial?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. August Michael.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. EBERHARDT. 706 East Farmers Road, Seagoville, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Seagoville [spelling] S-e-a----

Mr. EBERHARDT. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. EBERHARDT. September 13, 1933.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I am a detective of police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Eight years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you assigned to any particular unit?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Assigned to burglary and theft.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with burglary and theft?

Mr. EBERHARDT. About 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you and I talked for some time just prior to taking this deposition, is that right?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to my talking with you, has anybody else from the Commission staff, as opposed to the Secret Service, one of the investigatory agencies, has anybody from the Commission staff spoken with you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I made some notes during our interview I want to dictate these for the record. I wish you would listen to them carefully, and if there are any changes or corrections that you would like to make, I wish you would tell me and we can straighten up the record on this.

I began talking with Mr. Eberhardt about how the FBI happened to interview him on December 20, 1963, and he indicated that he believed that it was a result of finding his telephone number in one of Jack Ruby’s notebooks or on a scrap of paper. Mr. Eberhardt told me that he had changed his telephone number and that the number which was actually in Jack’s phone book was not the number that he had now. The reason for the change was that, out in Seagoville, the telephone company became a member or a part of the regular Dallas dialing district, and all of the telephone numbers in Seagoville were changed, although there was no actual physical change of any telephone. He also stated to me that he had come to know Jack Ruby in connection with his work on the police force, that while he was a member of the vice squad and while he has been with the burglary and theft division of the police department, he has had occasion to visit Ruby’s nightclubs. Now, he said that, since he has been with burglary and theft, which has been since early 1962, that he saw--went into Ruby’s place almost every night when he was on the night shift, and I asked him when he was last on the night shift, and he stated that he was on the night shift the month of October. Mr. Eberhardt also----

Mr. EBERHARDT. That is going to be wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Speak to the reporter.

Mr. EBERHARDT. I am just trying to think. I told--I was working 3 to 11 when the President got killed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. So that would be my night shift.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during which shift did you go in to Ruby’s club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I would be working 3 to 11 shift in November, the month that the President got killed, but I hadn’t seen him in November, and I had worked days in October and I hadn’t seen him in October, so it would be August when I would have been up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be September?

Mr. EBERHARDT. September. I was working 3 to 11 when the President got killed, because I was home and heard it on television and came on to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you ever visit Jack’s clubs on a social basis?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how frequently would you visit them on a social basis?

Mr. EBERHARDT. In the 5 years I knew him, I was at the Vegas Club about three times with my wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Carousel Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. We went up there once and she wouldn’t ever go back. She wanted to see what it was like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How recently before the President was killed had you been in the Vegas or Carousel Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Socially?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. It had been a long time, over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to continue dictating what Detective Eberhardt told me, he stated that he regarded Jack Ruby as a source of information in connection with his investigatory activities. I asked him in particular whether he remembered any instances when Jack had been a source of such information, and he stated that at one time Jack reported to him a female employee of his whom he believed had been forging checks and also thought might be a source of narcotics or drugs of some sort, and as a result of the information which Ruby provided, a charge was filed against this girl.

Now, do you remember the name of the girl?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Not her true name. We handed her over to the forgery bureau. She had some dangerous drugs. She was up under the name of [deletion]. She never came back. We arrested her out of the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when I was working vice. Three years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you also stated that he informed on a fellow by the name of [deleted], who was wanted in connection with a white slavery charge. Did you ever prosecute that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. He came into town. He was already under indictment. He told us that he was in town and where he was staying, which we like to know. He was staying at the Baker Hotel, which was half a block away from the Carousel, and he had heard one of the parking lot boys talking about this Valentine being up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. EBERHARDT. And a search warrant was executed and a squad of officers went in there and arrested them all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when I was in vice, too. Two or three years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of information did he give you in connection with burglary investigation?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I investigated one burglary when his place was burglarized, and I had several complaints at the Vegas Club from them as owners. Out on the street, if we asked him about a particular person--we asked him about 8 or 9 months ago about a safe burglar [deleted]. He said he didn’t know him. If he was on the street, he would come in and call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that burglary at Ruby’s place?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I was working deep nights. He surprised the burglars in his club and ran them out. I was in burglary and theft then for about a year or year and a half. The case wasn’t assigned to me. I was the officer on the scene, being the detective on duty at the time of the occurrence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the Carousel Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say a year or year and a half. Do you mean a year or year and a half ago or after you went on B. and T.?

Mr. EBERHARDT. A year ago from now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have taken it to early 1963 or late 1962?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a safe in his club at that time?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. It was a metal filing cabinet they pried, came in the back door, came up the fire escape. He had closed the place, went to eat, went back for his dogs, and when he came back, they were there, the burglars were there. They didn’t get away with any of the loot, and they were later filed on, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack do when he surprised them?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He called the police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he fight with them or anything?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. They got out. He had a gun with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a safe?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk with you about putting a safe into the Carousel?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of his talking with anybody about his installing a safe in the Carousel?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about his practice with respect to keeping money?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He always kept a large sum of money in his pocket, and I talked to him several times about leaving that place at 2:30 or 3 o’clock in the morning and driving home with it, but this was just one of his peculiarities.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you what he did with it, where he kept it once he got it home?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he used any banks or anything like that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I don’t know anything about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack owned any real estate?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about the financial condition of his club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That was when it was a private club. Before he opened the Carousel, see, it was a private club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that when it was known as the Sovereign Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. And he said he was losing his shirt and he was going to open it up to the public, and he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since then, did he ever talk to you about how he was doing financially?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. Business was good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How recently did you talk to him about financial condition?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Any time you would go up there and see him, you know, he would come, you know, he liked to tell you business was good, he was doing good, because he didn’t like his opposition, they were on the outs all of the time, the two brothers, Weinsteins. They didn’t like each other at all. They didn’t go to each other’s places. He would like to say he was doing good, getting some of their business, he was doing good. He liked to talk about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know or did you ever hear him talk about Ralph Paul?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard of him?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I haven’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe you also told me that you knew George Senator and that George was a bartender for Jack at the Carousel?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He was doorman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was doorman?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He took the money when the people came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who was the person at the door, the ticket taker, whatever you call it, at the Vegas Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Eva was; Eva Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Eva Grant; how would your describe her physically?

Mr. EBERHARDT. She is in her forties, I would say, heavy set. She has long hair. It was usually red tinted. Fair complected, nice, middle-aged looking woman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she was heavy set? How heavy would you say?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I would say 155.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall would you say?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Any time I saw her, she had heels on and she would be five-six or seven in heels.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she noticeably fat or obese?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. She is just big boned, a big-boned woman. She is not actually what you would call real fat. She is just heavy built.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a woman by the name of Pauline Hall who worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Not by name, I don’t. I might if I would see her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any fat, heavy-set woman who worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any such person who worked at the Carousel Club?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. Eva had a good friend--I don’t know what her name was--who she thought one time stole a ring off of her, who she was going to call and make a report on it and called me and told me not to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see the woman?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I have never seen her. She was a very close friend of Mrs. Grant, and that is why I dropped the investigation, and that is the only close friend I have heard her speak of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that woman’s name?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That was last year sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To continue with this dictation of what Mr. Eberhardt told me prior to starting this deposition, that he also stated that he knew a man named Buddy King, who had worked for Jack, and apparently King had been down on his luck and Jack had picked him up and given him a job for a while, and that it was common practice for Jack to pick up these people, people of this sort, and employ them for a short while.

Do you think Jack did this because he could get these people for low wages or do you think that he did it out of the goodness of his heart?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He liked show people like Buddy King--you know, he was in the movies--and he put a picture up there with Our Gang Comedy. He liked to be around people like that. Prizefighters, they would be up there now and then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any prizefighters up there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. I met a prizefighter that bounced for him one night, the old heavyweight here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turman?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he the only one that hung around there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; I take it back. You remember when this left-handed lightweight fighting for Curtis Cokes, going to fight for the title, little, left-handed, Muskegon, Mich.? He was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. When Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes in Dallas, the night after, he was up in the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Kenney Lane fought Curtis Cokes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He came up to the place?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He came up to the place. He is top contender right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say how he knew him?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. He just said, “There is Kenney Lane.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often do they have prizefights in Dallas?

Mr. EBERHARDT. They haven’t had one for quite a while now. They tried to promote some, but they didn’t go over good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about amateur fights?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; we have tried to build up with some smokers with the Police Athletic League, and such as that. Had the Golden Gloves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often in the average year have they had the amateur fights, that you know of?

Mr. EBERHARDT. They had 4 or 5 cards last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who sponsored those?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know who was sponsoring them, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; huh-uh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any interest in them?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also asked Detective Eberhardt if he knew of anyone else whom he knew from the police department, and he mentioned that his partner on the vice squad, R. L. Clark, also got some useful information, but that Eberhardt hasn’t worked with Clark since early 1962 when Detective Eberhardt was transferred to burglary and theft.

Now, is there anything else that you would want to add to what I have just dictated?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that--are you satisfied that that is an accurate statement, a report of what we talked about----

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Beforehand?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have given an interview to Agents Smith and Chapoton, [spelling] C-h-a-p-o-t-o-n, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on December 20, 1963, and you stated that, when you were on duty sometime between 3 and 11 p.m. on Friday night, November 22, that you recall seeing Jack Ruby on the third floor between 6 and 7 p.m. Will you tell us how you happened to--how you fix this as between 6 and 7 p.m.?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I was working afternoons, usually go to eat at around 5:30 or 6, and I already had eaten when I got back in the office when I seen Jack, and so make it around 7 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you actually in the office when you saw Jack?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Jack?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He had stuck his head in our door and hollered at us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in and talk at all?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain in the office?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Oh, 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was in the office with you at that time?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Our whole--well, our shift was on. I don’t recall who actually was in there, but Lieutenant Leonard’s shift was on at that time. That is who I worked for at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me as many of the people as you recall who would have been on that shift.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Let’s see. I wouldn’t know their days off, but I could tell you the names of everybody on the shift.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let’s have that.

Mr. EBERHARDT. C. A. Jones, S. Tuck, P. Dillehay, J. R. Johnston, C. T. Burney, W. P. Posey, R. A. Standifer, M. Tuck. Lieutenant, it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Lieutenant Leonard?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; there is some more that I just can’t--H. J. Bettes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that last name?

Mr. EBERHARDT. [Spelling.] B-e-t-t-e-s. Correction on Posey. He was on vacation. J. H. Boyd, that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people that you have named, do you remember specifically if any of them were in the office when Jack came in?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; the lieutenant was there, I think Jones was there, I think Tuck was there, and they were in and out and reporters in and out, you know, it is hard to sit here and visualize who was standing there, and the secretaries were there, but I don’t recall which were on duty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a number of rooms in your office; don’t you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. In our office?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. We have three interrogation rooms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have the main reception room, the interrogation rooms?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No, no; the only office that is closed off is the interrogation rooms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walk into the office, you come into a room?

Mr. EBERHARDT. You come into an “L,” and then the room opens up for you.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you describe which room Jack came into?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He opened our door and walked in about three paces and just stood there and talked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sit down at all?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; he stood up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you remember him saying?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He came in and said hello to me, shook hands with me. I asked him what he was doing. He told me he was a translator for the newspapers. Of course, I knew that he could speak Yiddish. Had a notebook in his hand, and he talked a little bit about that, and then he said that he brought the coffee and sandwiches up for the reporters, corned beef sandwiches. He said, “Nothing but kosher stuff is all I bring.” He talked a little bit about the assassination of the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him saying--what he said about the assassination?

Mr. EBERHARDT. How terrible it was for it to happen in the city, and then he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem--how would you describe his state of emotion over the Presidents death?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, he said that he--he called me by my middle name--he said, “It is hard to realize that a complete nothing, a zero like that, could kill a man like President Kennedy was.” He said that, “It is hard to understand how a complete nothing,” that is what he referred to him as, “a complete nothing could have done this,” and then he left, and then I didn’t notice where he went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember anything else that was said in these 5 or 10 minutes that he was in there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; he just asked me how I was doing, how my wife and children are, which he always did any time he seen anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now----

Mr. EBERHARDT. I was trying to recall about this lapel deal and give it a lot of thought, and I can’t remember visually what he had on his lapel, but I do remember him taking his notebook and hitting his lapel, and he said, “I am here as a reporter,” and he took the notebook and hit like that. He had something on his coat, but I can’t visualize now what it was. I did not get one of his kosher sandwiches, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t. Did he show them to you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I never did ask the man anything about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it because of his statement about the kosher sandwiches that you place the time as between 6 and 7 p.m.?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, I had already eaten. That is why I placed the time around there in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could it have been as late as 10:30 or 11?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Oh, no; no. See, we get off at 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if there were Israeli newspaper or Yiddish----

Mr. EBERHARDT. There was a bunch of them running around there talking that unknown tongue. I don’t know what they were saying. There were some orientals; there was some French; there were several dialects running around there that I didn’t know what they were talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you saw Jack at a later time, also, didn’t you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could it have been at this later time that Jack told you about the kosher sandwiches?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I didn’t speak to him at the later time. That is the only time I spoke to him. I just seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know, after Ruby killed Oswald, there were a number of rumors that circulated as to how he got into the basement, and one of the rumors was that he got in by the use of a press badge? Now, one thing we are interested in here is tracing how these rumors might have gotten started. You recall your actions after the assassination is that you might have described this particular episode that you just told us about now about being an Israeli interpreter. Do you recall that you mentioned that to anybody within the 24 hours after Ruby killed Oswald?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I didn’t. The first one I talked to about it was when the FBI agents asked me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, wasn’t it common for all of you people to be talking about any contact that you had with Ruby on those 2 days?

Mr. EBERHARDT. See, I wasn’t there. I was gone Sunday and Monday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. But I mean, even when you came back, wasn’t there a lot of gossip, what-not, guys exchanging views?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t you somewhere between the time you actually saw Ruby here and the time that you were interviewed by the agents, didn’t you talk to somebody in the police department about your meeting Ruby?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. We talked about him being up there in the office, and being around the city hall like that and wondered how he got in the basement, and then the only other thing I did on that was write a report to the chief of police on some information given to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of the record here.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will go on the record on this. I have asked Mr. Hubert to check in our files to see if we have got a copy of this report that you mentioned that you gave to Chief Curry. Now, I don’t have any recollection that we have it, and let me ask you now, if he doesn’t report back to me and say that we have it, would you be good enough, when you go back to work today, to check where a copy of this report is and provide it to us? I am going to ask you to clear it with your superiors and everything.

Mr. EBERHARDT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to see a copy of that. What did that report deal with?

Mr. EBERHARDT. This was information given to me by a police reserve who I know real well who was on duty at the time. He didn’t think anything about telling anybody about it, and several days later he told me about it, about going out to the hospital when Oswald was shot and talking to another reserve out there, that he didn’t know his name, who said that he had seen or thought he had seen a man walk down the ramp outside of the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the reserve officer that gave you this information?

Mr. EBERHARDT. H. B. Holly, Jr. And as soon as he told me about it, I sat down and wrote a “Dear Chief,” and gave it to my captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion yourself to talk to this unknown reserve officer?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I didn’t. I talked to Holly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Mr. Hubert indicated to me that we didn’t have a copy of this report, and I would appreciate very much seeing it.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay. I will try.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did in the period between the time you saw Ruby, at which you estimated at 6 or 7 p.m., and when you saw him later on at the press conference?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I worked--I just worked my day out, and then they held us over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay in?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. They had us on standby. I did paper work, caught up on supplements. They held us over a little bit, and then we had the press conference. When they brought Oswald in, we stood with him, myself and a couple of other detectives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You stood next, right next, to Oswald for the purpose of guarding him?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you able to look out over the crowd?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you see Ruby in the crowd?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He was on the right-hand side of the room standing up on one of the tables with a notebook and pencil in his hand, with all of the reporters and cameramen out there. They were facing us. They were in the assembly room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the other people guarding?

Mr. EBERHARDT. There was a whole line, a whole line in front of the showup. I was standing about three people removed behind Oswald. I was standing behind Oswald and the reporters were shooting questions at them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he seated?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; he was standing. We were all standing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to look over his shoulder?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Oh, yes; I had a full view of the room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what other police officers were down there with you guarding Oswald and looking out?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, Mr. Wade was there; Chief Curry was there; Captain King was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other detectives were guarding Oswald?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, homicide detectives were there. I don’t know which ones they were. The ones that, you know, were working on him, probably Leavelle and his partner. Joe Cody was there. That is the only ones I remember. And there was some uniform men from the jail, I believe, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you stay after Oswald left?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Until they got him out. I didn’t have anything to do with transporting him to or from the assembly room, but when he initially arrived in the assembly room, they asked us to go up there more or less to keep the reporters from making a rush for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go down to the assembly room in the first place?

Mr. EBERHARDT. To hear the press conference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of curiosity?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any other men from your bureau go down there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; Cody is from my bureau, and he is the only one that I remember being up there with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you stay in the press conference room after the homicide people took Oswald out?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Chief Curry speak at that time?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; Henry Wade did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall anything that happened during Henry Wade’s interview?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; because when Oswald left, then all semblance of any kind of order disappeared. They just, you know, come up around Henry Wade and just started----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby’s saying anything during this press conference?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; I don’t remember seeing him again, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Henry Wade making any statement to the effect that Oswald was a member of the Free Cuba Committee?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t remember too much of what the district attorney said. There was so much written and heard about it, it is hard to differentiate what Wade said from what I read in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Ruby had said something at this press conference, would you have noticed it or heard it?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I have heard that he had from other people, you know, rumors around, but myself, I don’t remember he said anything. I heard he corrected Mr. Wade on a question, is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Is what I heard. I didn’t stay for the entire conference. I was at liberty to go home. When they had me go up there and guard Oswald, as soon as he left, I was at liberty to go home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave this conference?

Mr. EBERHARDT. About 5 minutes after he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Cody leave together?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you sign out of the building or anything?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; we don’t sign out. I just left, got in my car and went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Cody remain in there after you did?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know. I lost him in the shuffle. I stood over there by Johnny, the news reporter up there in the pressroom at the city hall, is who I stood by while the conference was going on. He asked a couple of questions. I couldn’t tell you what questions he asked. No; there was no semblance of order. Those reporters just holler out anything that comes in their mind, and whoever shouts the loudest is whoever gets the answer, is how it works.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Ruby had said something while you were in there, would you have been close enough to Henry Wade or to Ruby to have heard it?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know where Ruby was, so I couldn’t answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said at this press conference you saw Ruby standing back----

Mr. EBERHARDT. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back on a table?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Right

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand it, now, when you say that you don’t know where Ruby was.

Mr. EBERHARDT. As soon as Oswald left is when the press conference began, and when Oswald left, they all came running up to the front. There was great disorder. When Oswald left, all of the reporters was at liberty to do what they wished, and they all came up to the front, and I didn’t see Jack Ruby after Oswald left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I want you to be an artist here. Can you draw the assembly room?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay. Here is the main door. This is the stage back here for a showup.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. It is raised. All right. And then through here you have an alleyway, a little hallway, and then down through here is a walkway. Now, through here are fixed tables that run length to the wall, stationary, all of the way down, both sides.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you mark those with a “T” or a “Table” or something like that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay. Now, they were all stationary here. Over here is a desk that the showup lieutenant uses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. With a microphone here. Now, Oswald was brought in through here. All of the reporters were warned by the chief of police that, if they rushed to the front, he would be taken out and no questions would be asked or answered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Oswald came in there, where did he get planted?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He came up to the center of the stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an “X” or a circle.

Mr. EBERHARDT. He would be there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you write “Oswald” there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there people on either side of Oswald?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes; I was on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the people, there weren’t other prisoners but there were other detectives?

Mr. EBERHARDT. All of the way to the desk, all of the way to the door. Of course, I couldn’t see too much over here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Will you put an “X” where you were standing?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Right about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you mark your initials or something there? Okay. Now, were there any people in between you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. This way?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Between you two. How many officers were there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. The best I remember, two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you put two little circles in there?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two “X’s.” Okay.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Now, they left some cameramen up here in front of this table, see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. EBERHARDT. And they were lined up all through in here. They were in the kneeling position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. You are indicating, in between the tables where you and Oswald were, why there were a bunch of news photographers?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And they were all there in----

Mr. EBERHARDT. Aisleway, all news photographers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That leads to the back of the room.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay. And the rest of them back here stood up on these tables. When the front tables got full, they all stood up, and Ruby was over here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Will you put “Ruby” on that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Then they proceeded to ask him questions, take his picture, what have you, and somebody, the chief, I don’t remember which one of the chiefs, said, “All right. Take him out.” And they took him out, and I remained, and when they took him out, here they all come.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Oswald was taken out, were there any people still standing up on those tables?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; they got off, and, of course, Henry Wade was up here at the desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mark “Henry Wade” there.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Then they all run for him, and you couldn’t see Wade for the reporters around him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were the reporters between you and Henry Wade?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the reporters had their back to you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could you hear the questions that were being asked by the reporters?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I could hear most of them; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you hear Henry Wade’s answers?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any difference in the way that you could hear Henry Wade’s answers as opposed to the way you could hear the questions?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, the questions were coming from all over the room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Henry Wade speaking through a microphone?

Mr. EBERHARDT. They kept hollering for him to turn on the microphone. At first, he hadn’t gotten it turned on, but they hollered at him, and he turned it on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any substantial difference between your ability to hear Wade----

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As opposed to your ability to hear the reporters?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any times when there were people speaking when you couldn’t hear them, reporters asking questions?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; they shout. They shout from the crowd. Very ill-mannered people, the way they conducted that thing. There is no--I mean they don’t have any concern for any of their other people or not. It is every man for himself. They just run, and if they run over one of their own, they do, that is all, and it is mass confusion. Whenever they left these tables and what have you, they just come up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this, step over here and get a pen. While I am marking this particular document, I would like for you to look at the report of your interview and read it over and then I am going to ask you if there are any additions or corrections you want to make.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Did you want me to deliver that “Dear Chief” copy to you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, send it over.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification----

Mr. EBERHARDT. Let me make you a better picture.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to go down in history. A thousand years from now, they are going to look at this and say, “That is what Eberhardt did.” I have marked this diagram that you have made of the assembly room Exhibit No. 5025, and I have labeled it “Police Assembly Room, Oswald Press Conference.” Now, this is the diagram that you have just finished drawing, is it not?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign that and date it? [Pause.] You are going to mess up the historians. The year is--1267, that is your police number?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you were writing the year on there. Now, I am going to also mark for identification the report of Smith and Chapoton.

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t like that, I mean this part here, I mean they didn’t get this exactly right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let us change it. Let me mark it, “Dallas, Texas, Detective Eberhardt, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5026.” Now, would you look at that, and what corrections or changes do you want to make?

Mr. EBERHARDT. This part, asked me how come Jack had my phone number. My baby, my youngest one, when she was born----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. EBERHARDT. He knew I was a Catholic. He was Jewish, which has nothing to do with it. It is a christening card, not a present. I don’t know if you know anything about our religion. When a child is christened, it is pretty big in our religion. He wanted to send her a christening card, and that is when I invited him to my house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. That was about 2 weeks after the baby was born.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the baby born?

Mr. EBERHARDT. May 8.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn’t this be an accurate statement, “Because this was the day that Eberhardt’s child was born, Ruby wanted to send the child a christening card”?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you cross it out and put “christening card”?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put your initials there.

Mr. EBERHARDT. And I invited him to come out to the house and see the baby when she was christened. He had never been to my home nor I to his.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else----

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you want to change on that?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you think might be of value to the Commission, either in connection with the Oswald killing----

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, this part down here. I don’t know if anybody has mentioned to you about this or not, but Officer Mullinax, he talked to me a long time when this boy got killed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that occur?

Mr. EBERHARDT. It was in the summer 2 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1961 or 1962?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No; 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. EBERHARDT. An officer was shot to death in a hotel. There were no witnesses, except the man that shot him. The man that shot him was not indicted. There were no witnesses. I went up to Jack’s one night, and he talked to me one night about it, and he went to the boy’s funeral. I don’t know if that gives you any idea of how Ruby’s mind is, but it is unusual in our profession to have a man show up at a funeral. You would just have to draw your own conclusions as to why he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mullinax was on the vice squad?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack tried to be very friendly with all of the members of the vice squad?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He was friendly with everybody. If he knew you, he would say hello to you. If he didn’t know you, he was going to try to meet you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The vice squad would probably be one of the first to close his place down if there was any problem?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Liquor board and the vice squad, that is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that you know Jack well, don’t you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes and no. I know the man from seeing him up there, but I have never rode in any car with him, never had him at my home, but I know him from seeing him time after time after time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen people who are like Jack, enough people of Jack’s background that you think you could judge his character?

Mr. EBERHARDT. We get around a lot of characters in this business, and he was one of them. He was a little more unique than some of the others.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he more unique?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Everybody knew he had a bad temper. He had a reputation in town as being a streetfighter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. EBERHARDT. If an officer got in trouble around his place, he would help him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think he was the kind of a man who was capable of being nice to people for his own benefit because, there would be some personal interest or profit in it?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know. He--I couldn’t see what he could--he never asked us to do anything. We arrested people out of his place. He didn’t get mad at us, say anything to us, “Don’t arrest her.” In fact, he told us about it. She was about to start on his show at the time that we arrested her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the girl on the forgery charge?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jack was the kind of man who was capable of keeping a secret of being engaged in activities that other people might not know about?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Certainly. I believe, if he didn’t want us to know something, he wasn’t going to tell us. If he did something illegal, I wouldn’t look for him to come tell us; we would have to catch him, if he was doing something, but most people are that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was an outgoing guy, he talked about a lot of things, but was he also the kind of guy that was capable of keeping things pretty close to the vest if he wanted to?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Yes. Like I say, going up there to check his old place, he knew me as well as anyone. He has walked past me and not even seen me. He was just in another world. He would walk past and stop and say hello and say, “I didn’t see you,” and another time he would see you two blocks away and run you down and say hello. He liked people in his place; he liked names to introduce you to people, and that is why he had somebody around there. Like when he had Buddy King around there, and after he got through telling me who he was, I thought he was a big star, after Jack got through telling me he had been in the movies. He is just like that. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any reports prior to the time that he shot Oswald that he was a homosexual?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No, I hadn’t heard anything. In fact, I thought he was a ladies’ man, the way he talked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about this Mullinax thing, incident, that seems significant to you?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Just the fact that he went to the funeral, talked about this fellow getting away with it, that something should be done, more or less that we just couldn’t do anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have there been any other police officers killed in the line of duty, other than Tippit and Mullinax, since you have been on the force?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack--was Jack personally acquainted with Mullinax?

Mr. EBERHARDT. He knew Mullinax, had seen him. He had been up at the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Mullinax have had an opportunity to visit Jack’s place on a regular basis in connection with his business on the police force?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I wouldn’t say that Jack Ruby knew him as good as he knew some of the other officers, no, but Mullinax had been up there several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were--at the time that Oswald was killed, who were the officers on the force outside of yourself that Ruby knew the best, would you say?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know who he knew the best.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your own estimation, who did he?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I don’t know all that he knew. He knew just about everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any ones in particular that you think he knew quite well?

Mr. EBERHARDT. I have never seen him out any place with any officers; I have never seen him outside of his place with any officers; I have never seen him in a car or restaurant or anything like that with any policemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel that there were other people on the force who knew Ruby better than you do?

Mr. EBERHARDT. Well, I have been there 8 years. I don’t know even how long Jack Ruby has been in Dallas. I have been in Dallas a little longer than 8 years. I imagine that some of the older officers knew him when he had another place here. He used to have another place down on Ervay Street. That is before I got on the police force.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have any more questions. Do you have anything else that you want to offer?

Mr. EBERHARDT. No, nothing that I can think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. EBERHARDT. I will bring that report down to you tomorrow and leave it for you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would appreciate that. If you would, also sign this statement.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Any place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any place and date it.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Have you got a card?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon.

Mr. EBERHARDT. Have you got a card?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. I will show you my identification.

Mr. EBERHARDT. No. I was just going to write it down. In case you weren’t here, I was going to leave it for you.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY EVANS, JR.

The testimony of Sidney Evans, Jr., was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Sidney Evans, Jr. Mr. Evans, my name is Leon D. Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Evans, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly as to the whereabouts of Jack Ruby around--on the morning of November 24. Now, did you receive a letter from the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Such a letter was addressed to you and apparently miscarried somehow, but in any case----

Mr. EVANS. Might have went to those apartments. See, I was working out of Houston, and they cut the run and I had to transfer, and that was the reason that the three of us was sharing the apartment there.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me state this to you. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, and it was sent out by mail, but apparently hasn’t reached you. The rules of the Commission also provide that you can waive that notice if you want to do so, and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice and let us take your deposition?

Mr. EVANS. It don’t matter. I want to get it over with. I done lost too much already.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you stand and raise your right hand so that I can administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EVANS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name, Mr. Evans.

Mr. EVANS. Sidney Evans, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. EVANS. Thirty-seven, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. EVANS. Retired?

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. EVANS. 2205 Marvel. M-a-r-v-e-l.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. EVANS. Irving, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. EVANS. Uh-huh, that is----

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. EVANS. Line driver for Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. EVANS. Since 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. EVANS. Six years.

Mr. HUBERT. In November of 1963, where did you live?

Mr. EVANS. My home is in Houston, but I was still at the Marsalis Apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located, that Marsalis Apartments?

Mr. EVANS. 232 Ewing, I believe, or, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say 223 South Ewing Street?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. What apartment did you have?

Mr. EVANS. 204.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said you shared that with somebody?

Mr. EVANS. Two other drivers.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are they?

Mr. EVANS. Jack Scritchfield and Malcom Slaughter.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been living there with these men, sharing that apartment?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I believe I only stayed there 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a stopoff place on your runs that you make as a driver, is that right?

Mr. EVANS. Well, you see, they have a bunkhouse, and we were staying in the bunkhouse, but the company said that we can’t do that no more, and our families were still in Houston, so, we had to have a place to sleep when we were in a town, and sometimes wouldn’t be there 1 day a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you estimate that you actually shared this apartment with these other two gentlemen for about 2 months?

Mr. EVANS. Two months.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often, or how many times, put it that way, during those 2 months prior to November 24, 1963, did you actually stay overnight or stay in the daytime in this apartment?

Mr. EVANS. I don’t believe it was once a week.

Mr. HUBERT. About once a week? So, about eight or nine times, you think, during this period?

Mr. EVANS. Something like that. About the only time we would be there is if we came in Saturday, we would be there Saturday, or Saturday night and run out Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being at that apartment on November 24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was assassinated?

Mr. EVANS. That was the morning Oswald was shot? Yes, all three of us was there that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion that day to see a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I guess it was him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us how you----

Mr. EVANS. Well, you see----

Mr. HUBERT. Came to think it was him or guess it was him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, see, the church I have been going to is over in Irving, and they had one, I found out, over there on Marsalis, Catholic Church there in Oak Cliff, and I thought they had 10 o’clock mass, but I went and they had a 9 and 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. So, I come back to the apartment at--well, it was just a little bit before 10, and just as I got out of the car a fellow come out of the laundry, and he had his--both hands with laundry in them, and I stepped out of my car, and I kind of waited for him to go on up, and he kind of waited for me.

Mr. HUBERT. How close did you get to him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, we wasn’t--right then only about 15 feet, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed?

Mr. EVANS. He was--had on a T-shirt, pants and T-shirt.

Mr. HUBERT. No hat?

Mr. EVANS. No hat.

Mr. HUBERT. And you said he had some laundry in his hands?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he live in that same apartment house?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I went up the stairs first, and he went up behind me, and we went up the first flight. I figured he lived on the first flight. I didn’t know where he lived, so, when we went around and went up the second flight he was right behind me, and I said, “How are you this morning?” And he ignored me like I didn’t--well, somebody going along with both arms full of laundry, I would open the door, because he was going up on the same floor, so, when he didn’t speak with me, I said, “Well, heck with you.” So, I walked on and he went in 207 there.

Mr. HUBERT. He went in apartment 207? Was this laundry he had already clean, or what?

Mr. EVANS. Well, they had a--they’ve got a washer and dryer in the basement in the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. He was coming up from the washateria?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he went into apartment 207?

Mr. EVANS. Yes. And, so, I went in. Two buddies were up, so, we ate breakfast and I went back to church at 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you had gone to try to catch the 10 o’clock mass?

Mr. EVANS. Yes; but didn’t have at 10. Had to go at 11.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you leave your apartment?

Mr. EVANS. I left about a quarter of 11.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time?

Mr. EVANS. About a quarter until 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Quarter to 10? And you got there and found out mass was at 9:30?

Mr. EVANS. No; it was 9. Just getting over.

Mr. HUBERT. Just getting over, so you just came on back to the apartment?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time you left your apartment and--until the time you got back on the first round when you found out----

Mr. EVANS. Well, it only takes about six or seven blocks from the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. You were driving?

Mr. EVANS. Driving. It takes less than----

Mr. HUBERT. So, you figure about 10 o’clock or a little before?

Mr. EVANS. A little before 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you subsequently seen pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. I have seen pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him in person since?

Mr. EVANS. That is the only time I ever seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen him before that date?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never since?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the man you saw that morning that you have just described was the same man that you have seen in the pictures?

Mr. EVANS. Well, I really didn’t get a close look. All I know, he went in that apartment, and it is my understanding he had a roommate, but it might have been him.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to ask is whether or not the pictures that you have seen in the newspapers since of a person now known as Jack Ruby was the same man, in your opinion, that you saw with the laundry in his hands at about 10 o’clock on November 24?

Mr. EVANS. Well, it could be. I mean, kind of--didn’t have real thick hair on top.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I show you a series of pictures here, which for purposes of identification I am marking on the back as follows, “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5122, deposition of Sidney Evans, Jr.,” and signing my name to it, and in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document, I will ask you to put your name under mine, after which, I will ask you some questions about it.

Mr. EVANS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you to turn the document over and look at those several photos there of a man and ask you if that is the man you saw carrying the laundry on the morning of November 24, at about 10 o’clock.

Mr. EVANS. Well, it looks like him. Of course, he didn’t have on nothing but a T-shirt, white T-shirt when I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; what I was thinking about, his face----

Mr. EVANS. Well, you know, I just looked over my shoulder. He was coming up the stairs there behind me, and I said, “How are you this morning?” and he----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I take it that you looked at him several times, that is to say, you looked at him when you first saw him?

Mr. EVANS. I didn’t really look at him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do? Offer to open the door----

Mr. EVANS. I just, you know, I spoke to him, and I--he was coming up the same floor I was going up and I never paid much--in fact, I----

Mr. HUBERT. At sometime you must have mentioned to somebody that you thought you had seen this man on that Sunday, and that he was Jack Ruby. Do you recall how that came about?

Mr. EVANS. Well, one of these buddies there, he told some newspaperman a bunch--that he told them all about that when I wasn’t even there at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean at the time that he told the story?

Mr. EVANS. He told them all about it.

Mr. HUBERT. We are talking about now, Malcom Slaughter, aren’t we?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had told Slaughter that you thought that man you had seen was Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. After we ate and I went back to the 11 o’clock mass, and it was close to 12 o’clock when I got back to the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. And just as soon as I opened the door these guys told me Oswald had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. EVANS. And so, then, it wasn’t long before 1 o’clock Life Magazine, and--man, they was out there taking picture, and newspapers, and they were taking pictures of the apartment and interviewing different people there.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it was at that time that you told Mr. Slaughter that you thought you had seen Ruby that morning?

Mr. EVANS. Yes; I told him what happened there and the guy had went in that apartment there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his roommate, I think you mentioned something about a roommate?

Mr. EVANS. I understand the papers said there were two of them staying there.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know of your own knowledge?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen the man who was supposed to be his roommate?

Mr. EVANS. In fact, we was not in there, and sleeping in the daytime mostly when we was there, so I really don’t know anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, this man that you saw, who you think might have been Ruby, you never had seen him before nor have you seen him after?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony is that this document identified as Exhibit 5122, looks like him?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he had on a T-shirt instead of a tie and the----

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then did he have a hat on?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see his hair?

Mr. EVANS. Well, it was kind of thin there down the middle. That looks a little darker than what I remembered. Seemed like he was sort of grayish.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall a man was he?

Mr. EVANS. He was a lot shorter than I was, five something.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall are you?

Mr. EVANS. Six.

Mr. HUBERT. You are 6 foot?

Mr. EVANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say 5 foot what?

Mr. EVANS. Five six or----

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of build?

Mr. EVANS. Stout and husky.

Mr. HUBERT. How--powerful looking man?

Mr. EVANS. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Strong looking?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else that you know?

Mr. EVANS. That is all I know. Well, I know Slaughter told me that he’s seen him dressed up not long after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say that Mr. Slaughter made some comment about this man known as Jack Ruby----

Mr. EVANS. Well, they told me he did. I don’t know whether he did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. EVANS. Said that he--not long after I had left and went back to church, he said a man had--dressed up, and walked by our apartment, and he spoke to him, or something, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he thought it was Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. They said they thought it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did they say they had seen him?

Mr. EVANS. Well, if it was him it was somewhere right at 11 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?

Mr. EVANS. After we got back, found out what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, told you on that same day?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you told him that you thought you had seen Ruby earlier when he was carrying in laundry, he told you that he thought he had seen him dressed up a little later?

Mr. EVANS. Uh-huh, that was after Oswald was shot, and they was out there taking pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever advise the FBI agent that you had seen Ruby around the apartment, although you did not know him personally?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir; I never did. The only time I saw him was that one time.

Mr. HUBERT. If it was Ruby? Right?

Mr. EVANS. Right. There was a landlady there, after that was all over there, she told us that--well, in fact, these two guys that I room with had rented the apartment, and I was out of town, and called me long distance and wanted to know if I wanted to share it with them, because it was pretty expensive for two men, and no more than we stayed there--I said, well, I had to stay somewhere, and had to have a phone so that the company could call me. Something that you--that they require is that you have to have a telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the landlady?

Mr. EVANS. She said during the summer months he would climb up on the roof and sunbath up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who? Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. Ruby, whatever----

Mr. HUBERT. She tell you that?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name? Do you know?

Mr. EVANS. No; I don’t, but they moved a week or two after that. It seemed like there was somebody interviewing them--it was a young man and his wife. They moved out in Irving some place, but I don’t know where they moved to.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is the third partner?

Mr. EVANS. No; that is the landlady or the landlord and his wife, or the people that rented the apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say they moved and went to live in Irving?

Mr. EVANS. Somewhere, and said he bought them a place.

Mr. HUBERT. So, they don’t manage the apartment any more?

Mr. EVANS. I guess it was about 2 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?

Mr. EVANS. No; see, these two friends of mine, they had rented the apartment, and they had talked to the landlady and actually only supposed to be two people staying in there. In fact, they would be--I would pay them my share and they would pay the note.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Slaughter lives now?

Mr. EVANS. Well, he still lives in Houston, and they have given up the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, they have?

Mr. EVANS. Too expensive for two of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what his address is in Houston, or how he could be reached? Well, he works for the same company that you do?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Red Ball Motor Freight?

Mr. EVANS. Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located in Houston, the main office?

Mr. EVANS. 4000–4004 Irving Street, Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. Irving Boulevard, Houston, Tex. Now, I think you have given the name of the other man.

Mr. EVANS. Scritchfield. Of course, he didn’t----

Mr. HUBERT. Scritchfield?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?

Mr. EVANS. He is here in Dallas. I mean, he is staying up here. I don’t know----

Mr. HUBERT. He could be reached through your company, too, is that right?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

Mr. EVANS. Isn’t nothing that he knows about it. The only one would be Malcolm, and he said he seen a man who was dressed up that looked like him that he spoke to outside the apartment there. I think he went down to get a letter or something, or check the mail, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did? Slaughter?

Mr. EVANS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had Slaughter indicated that he knew Ruby?

Mr. EVANS. No; he didn’t know him. Just like I was, just stayed there maybe one day a week, you know, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right; I think that’s it.

Mr. EVANS. Didn’t know anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, have you been interviewed prior to today by any member of the Commission’s staff?

Mr. EVANS. No, sir; I believe there was a Mr. Page, or something--somebody----

Mr. HUBERT. FBI man?

Mr. EVANS. Talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about a member of the advisory staff of the Commission itself?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the commencement of this interview--I mean this deposition, there was a short interview between you and me. Did anything occur during that interview which we have not brought out in the deposition?

Mr. EVANS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, sir.

TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN

The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 4:30 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin. Let the record show that his attorney, Mr. Alfred J. Jackson of the firm of Tuchin & Jackson, 705 Fair Building, Fort Worth, Tex., is present and representing Mr. Carlin during the time this deposition is being taken. Let the record show also that Mrs. Bruce Carlin, his wife, is also in the room.

By the way, and this may go on the record, too, Mr. Jackson, you had mentioned to me prior to the beginning of the deposition something about obtaining a copy.

Mr. JACKSON. We don’t want one.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say to you that a copy can be made available to you at the cost which the reporter will charge you for the copy.

(Reporter stated that the price to them would be 35 cents per page.)

Mr. JACKSON. They want one.

Mr. HUBERT. Miss Laidrich, at the end of each of these depositions let there be a statement to the effect that Mr. Jackson--why don’t you dictate it.

Mr. JACKSON. Let the record show that Bruce Carlin and his wife, Karen Bennett Carlin, have made it known at this time to the interrogator representing the Warren Commission that each of them would like a copy of their deposition in this matter, that at this time each is financially unable to pay for said deposition and reserves the right to obtain a copy of said deposition at some later date.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Carlin.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry, particularly concerning conversations you had with Mr. Ruby on the 23d and 24th, and your knowledge concerning a telegram by which your wife received $25 from Mr. Ruby.

Now Mr. Carlin, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the President’s Commission; is that correct, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you received that, or did you receive that more than 3 days ago?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you stand, and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your name.

Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Twenty-three

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. CARLIN. 1312 Fairmont, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. JACKSON. At this time for other address purposes, will you tell us the name of your father?

Mr. CARLIN. H. T. Carlin.

Mr. JACKSON. Where does he live?

Mr. CARLIN. Route 13, Box 258, Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you presently occupied, Mr. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. I am not.

Mr. HUBERT. What has been, generally speaking, your occupation?

Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. You sell any particular product?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. Except for one job where I worked for a greeting card company, I sell sundries like drugs, hair sprays and headache remedies.

Mr. HUBERT. What companies have you worked with?

Mr. CARLIN. The Blue Bonnet Drug Co. in Arlington, Big State Mercantile in San Antonio, and Motel Drug Service in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Carlin, you were present during the deposition of your wife just within the last hour and a half?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to cover those areas, if possible, in this way, by asking you if you have any other versions of what she said and testified to on the various points involved. I think in that way we can save time. In other words, if you would prefer, of course, I can go through it, but since you were here, and if it is agreeable to your counsel, we can get at it that way.

Did you hear her say anything which, to your knowledge, you would disagree with, and I don’t mean by that of course to put either of you in a position of not saying the truth, but just simply that it is a recognition that witnesses sometimes see things differently than others in complete good faith on the part of both witnesses, you understand?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Any variations that you saw?

Mr. CARLIN. [To Mr. Jackson.] May I ask, at the time that I talked to you, did you make some kind of notes or is that what you are doing?

Mr. JACKSON. I was taking notes of the whole proceedings. Let me ask you, on November 22, 1963, Karen said she heard about the shooting of the President from Andrew Armstrong. Who called and stated that the Carousel would be closed that night? I think you indicated to me that at the time you or maybe possibly you and she heard about it in some other way prior to that time?

Mr. CARLIN. I myself misunderstood the question--that is correct, but what I thought she said was the way she heard that Oswald was killed.

Mr. JACKSON. All right, to your knowledge, how did she learn that Oswald was killed?

Mr. CARLIN. I was watching television and I don’t remember the program, but a news bulletin interrupted the program and said a man by the name of Ruby, I believe.

Mr. JACKSON. Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t remember whether it said Jack or it said Ruby, a Dallas nightclub owner, had attempted to assassinate Lee Harvey Oswald, the assassinator of John F. Kennedy, and I made the statement, “I bet they mean Ruby.”

Mr. JACKSON. You made the statement to whom?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen. I said, “I bet they mean Ruby.”

Mr. JACKSON. Why did you make this statement, do you remember?

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, may I ask him--I have no objection whatsoever to your asking any questions, but I think perhaps for the sake of the record, it would be better if I ask them, and then when we finish asking him, you absolutely have the right to go ahead.

Mr. JACKSON. I was just trying to help you.

Mr. CARLIN. I really don’t recall if it said Jack Ruby or not. I don’t know what made me say, “I bet that is Ruby,” but I know the announcer on TV seemed not to be sure, and said that this was not verified yet. And only a few minutes later the phone rang and it was Tammi True who asked if I had seen television.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her yourself?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I picked the phone up and she said, “Were you watching television?” And I said, “Yes.” She said, “Did you know Jack Ruby just killed Oswald?” And I said, “I just made that statement to Karen, I bet that is what the man meant.” The only reason that I can think of that I said, “I bet that is Jack Ruby,” is the fact that he may have said Jack Ruby, or maybe a man by the name of Ruby running a Dallas strip joint. I think that is the way he said it.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, what you want to tell now is that you differ with your wife’s recollection of how she learned of the shooting of Oswald in that you yourself saw it on television and remarked to her that at least it could have been Jack Ruby, and then it was confirmed by the call?

Mr. CARLIN. This is what she said, except the fact she forgot that Tammi True had called. I don’t think she even said in her statement a while ago except for the fact that she was thinking she had seen it on television. Of course, we all saw it so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mr. Jackson, do you want to pursue any further?

Mr. JACKSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other aspects of the matter that you would like to comment upon relative to your wife’s testimony first?

Mr. CARLIN. A number of times there were a few things, very minor, which a person’s memory might be--mine is failing me. There are a few things that were said that I did not know about, that she mentioned. But this is because I was not always at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean to do by this is to simply ask you this. So far as you have heard it and except in the way you have corrected it, your version of the role you played in the things you did and the things you said and the things you heard is about the same as your wife’s, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. There are two more things that I can think of right now, and let me state both of them. One is concerning the rent, and one is the fact that I talked to him, which she stated she didn’t know what we were saying. But I talked to him in the parking lot that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Take one at a time.

Mr. CARLIN. Concerning the parking lot conversation on the phone. She came back to the table in Colony Club and was rather upset about the fact Jack talked to her that way, and it made me a little upset, and I said I will call him next time. And I called him from the parking lot, and he said, “Bruce, that girl works for me, and she gets paid on a certain day.” And I think it was Mondays. But the way I remember it, there were--I mean Sundays, I am sorry--but there were times when they went over to the next day before they got paid. He said, “She works for me and she is to get paid at a certain time and I don’t owe the girl anything.”

I said, “I realize that, Jack, but we need the money to get back.” And he said, “Well, I’ve got some people here and I can’t come down right now.” And then he said, “I will just tell the attendant at the parking lot to give you all some money. Let me speak to Karen or to Little Lynn,” I believe is the way he said it, and I handed the phone to her, as she said.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to him, were you asking simply for money to get back, or for money to pay rent and buy groceries and so forth?

Mr. CARLIN. At that time we were asking for money to get back. Not working steadily, because my job requires a good car and mine was out of commission, at times this man that I worked for with the Motel Drug Service, which promised me a good job in the future, would come by and pick me up to help me. And one day he might pay me a little bit of money to get along on, and I never knew when I was going to get any, so all we were interested in at the time was getting home. When I gave the phone to her, she stated we needed the money for rent and groceries.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard that yourself? You heard her say that?

Mr. CARLIN. I do not recall whether she said that at that time. As far as the money going for rent and groceries, because I didn’t know that I would have to remember, and in fact I talked to Mr. Tom Thomas about it, because somebody from the, some authorities, somebody from the FBI or Secret Service had called to clear up a number of these things on the phone. In fact, they called almost in the middle of the night, and I wouldn’t tell them anything. And he said, “Well, if you are not sure who you are talking to, hang the phone up and call me in the office in Dallas,” and I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Which night was this?

Mr. CARLIN. I have no idea. We had just come home and the phone rang, and I don’t really even remember the man’s name. But I called him back at his office so I would know who I was talking to. It was one of the men who had talked to her, I believe. I don’t recall his name, but at the time I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he want to talk about?

Mr. CARLIN. A number of questions which we had both already answered. But he wanted to get them clear again. And then I don’t recall, but for some reason somebody had called up at one time or another which caused us to call Mr. Thomas. I was trying to keep my name, because of my family’s respectability, out, and I wanted Mr. Thomas, who also worked for the same company my father did, and I didn’t want him brought into it if I could help. And he said they were either going to subpoena him to the trial or get a statement from him. And I called him to tell him this.

Then I mentioned something about the rent. When I took the place I paid 3 weeks in advance, and then maybe I would go a week and then I would pay the week before and a week ahead. There was nothing, there was no particular date that I ever paid the rent. Sometimes ahead and sometimes I was behind. I do not know for sure that the $25 that we asked for went for rent at that time or whether we kept it and paid it when it was due, or whether it went for groceries or medicine, which we both needed.

But to make a long story short, I presume the reason she said rent and groceries was those were the two main factors that we needed to exist. All I am trying to clear up is the fact that I am not sure that I gave the landlord money for the rent at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in your wife’s statement that her request to Ruby on the 24th was not made solely for the purpose of rent?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you actually hear her conversation?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And she mentioned rent and groceries?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems to me she said something like rent, groceries and other things, just as you would say everybody else. In other words, we needed money to exist until she could get the rest of her check.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, the purpose of this call to Mr. Ruby was, as you have stated it, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by anyone to make this call, is that correct?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested to you other than your wife, of course, and Ruby himself, that this call be made?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as Ruby suggested it be made, he didn’t suggest anytime, as far as you were concerned, that it be made?

Mr. CARLIN. If he said this, I didn’t hear him saying it to her on the phone. She did ask me to call, I believe, once, maybe twice, before we found the money was there. Just as soon as we found out----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you all decided to call Ruby on the 24th when you did call him?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The fact that he said to call, and when we got up, she said that we should call, and then after we heard of Oswald’s death, I think just a few minutes, I asked if the money had come in, and they said no, and I think she called and found out later that the money had come in.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, the time of the call to Ruby was not planned or fixed in anyway? It was completely gratuitous?

Mr. CARLIN. When we woke up, we called him. We slept late that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No time had been set prior to calling him?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, have you been interviewed by any members of the President’s Commission other than myself today?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we did have what might be considered to be a little interview in some conversation in the hall. Do you recall anything that was said in the hall which has not been brought out in your deposition and your wife’s deposition which I understand you have adopted with the amendments that have been made? In other words, I am trying to ask you if there is anything that we talked about that hasn’t been put in the record, because if it hasn’t we ought to get it in there now.

Mr. CARLIN. I understand, but I cannot think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jackson, have you anything that you would like to question your client, Mr. Carlin, about, or any statement you wish to make, or observation?

Mr. JACKSON. None.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, I think that is all.

TESTIMONY OF KAREN BENNETT CARLIN

The testimony of Karen Bennett Carlin was taken at 3:05 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Carlin was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. Alfred J. Jackson, Jr., and by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Karen Bennett Carlin. Let the record show that Mrs. Carlin is accompanied by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin, and by Mr. Alfred J. Jackson, Jr., attorney at law, in the firm of Tuchin & Jackson, suite 705, Fair Building, Forth Worth 2, Tex., who is representing Mrs. Carlin.

Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mrs. Carlin.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and in greater particularity, about your conversation by telephone and otherwise with Jack Ruby on the night of the 23d of November, on the 24th of November, and the sending of money by Western Union to you.

Now Mrs. Carlin, I know that you are expecting a baby, and that as a matter of fact the time for the baby to be born is actually past. For that reason, I want to state to you that if in the course of this deposition, which I do not think will last very long anyhow, but if in the course of you feel the slightest discomfort and wish to stop it or recess it, please don’t hesitate to say so, and we will accommodate you completely. You understand that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Just any time you feel you want to stop the deposition, just let us know right away.

Mrs. CARLIN. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have appeared here, I think, as a result of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have received that letter, I think?

Mrs. CARLIN. [Produces letter.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you need not stand, but would you raise your right hand and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Jackson, it may be that you have not seen that, and if you wish to have a moment to look it over----

Mr. JACKSON. Go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show Mr. Jackson indicates he doesn’t wish to stop now.

What is your name, please, ma’am?

Mrs. CARLIN. Karen Lynn Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Twenty.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mrs. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. 1312 Fairmont.

Mr. HUBERT. At present I take it you are unoccupied?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record now, ma’am, how you came to know him and how long you have known him, and so forth.

Mr. CARLIN. It was through my husband that I came to know him. I was working at the Theatre Lounge as a stripper and I didn’t like the job there nor the employers, so my husband had heard about the Carousel Club through girls that worked there at the Theatre Lounge, so I went over and talked to Mr. Ruby and in turn I went over and received a job after talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about when that was?

Mrs. CARLIN. September?

Mr. JACKSON. Answer on your own.

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in 1963?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Perhaps we can arrive at it this way. How long before the death of the President did you start to work for Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. I would say about 2 months. I hadn’t been there very long.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of employment did you obtain with him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your compensation for the job? I mean, was it salary?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was salary. Seven days a week. It was $120 a week.

Mr. HUBERT. A hundred and twenty dollars a week and a 7-day week?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On what day of the week were you paid?

Mrs. CARLIN. On Saturdays.

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday nights?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who paid you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of his relation to Jack Ruby or to the Carousel?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, as I understood it, I met him in the office of Jack Ruby, and he was supposed to be a friend from Chicago that had known him, and he just introduced me as Ralph. And the only thing I knew was that he was a friend of Jack Ruby’s. I didn’t know he had any connection with the club at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know now?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this gentleman Ralph Paul only once?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Before the killing of the President, I only saw him once. But after that, I saw him all the time. He came in all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he was actually operating the club after?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out then that he was the owner and operator of a drive-in restaurant called the Bull Pen at Arlington?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that now?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, prior to the time when Oswald was shot, you had met Paul only once, and you don’t know what his relationship was?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. About this young man called Andrew Armstrong, do you recall him?

Mrs. CARLIN. The colored man?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his function there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, he was supposed to be the janitor to clean up and do little errands and to run the bar. Afterwards, it turned out that he also had a part in running the club.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean after?

Mrs. CARLIN. After the President was killed.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed on at the club until what date?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was December. I quit--no, I couldn’t say it was in December. It was right before the first. It was a week before the first.

Mr. HUBERT. The first of the year?

Mrs. CARLIN. January; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Larry?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man that stayed there and slept on the premises?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know of anyone that did. Andrew was the only one I knew that ever spent the night there, and that was just because he would say so the next evening. He said, “I am tired.” Said, “I had to stay here all night.”

Mr. HUBERT. I might add that this man Larry’s full name was Curtis Laverne Crafard.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. That was a little young boy, the one that worked the lights.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed on the premises?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. But he stayed next door most of the time. I know he was sleeping there for a while, but Jack put a stop to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Jack wouldn’t let him sleep in the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack didn’t like him sleeping there, because there was too many things gone.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he made him go next door?

Mrs. CARLIN. He went next door. I don’t know who was next door or what it was next door, but he went next door.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you heard was that this man had, Crafard, Curtis Laverne Crafard had been staying on the premises, but that Jack had put a stop to it and made him move to some place next door, but you don’t know which next door?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear this from?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was from Larry. He was taking care of the dogs or something.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you he had to move out?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Out of the premises altogether?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. He just said, “I am going to have to move. I can’t stay here. I don’t know where I am going to get the money, but I am going to have to move.”

Mr. HUBERT. That must have happened just before the assassination of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. After that I didn’t see Larry no more.

Mr. HUBERT. So to your knowledge he never did actually move, but just said he was going to have to move, and he informed you that Jack had told him he would have to move?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. When you say move, you mean move out at night and not sleep there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant, to move next door, I think is what you meant?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now coming to the event of November 22, where were you? Do you recall when you heard about the shooting of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. At home.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, on TV?

Mrs. CARLIN. Television. No; I take that back. The first I heard was when I got the telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive a telephone call from?

Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Armstrong?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. He just said that the President had been shot and we weren’t going to open, that we would open the next night, and I hung up.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it would be closed on Friday, but open on Saturday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Anytime you want to interject any kind of comment, let me know and I will stop. You did not speak to Ruby at that time?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. Andrew was calling from the club, he said, and just wanted to let all the girls know that they needn’t come to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay then in Fort Worth that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you indicated that Andrew did not tell you that the club would not be open Saturday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday.

Mrs. CARLIN. He said that it would probably be open Saturday. He said to call to make sure.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you to call to make sure?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Instead, you came in?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. I tried to call. There wasn’t anybody there in the evening, so I went ahead and got ready and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come?

Mrs. CARLIN. Bus.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come alone?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn’t. I didn’t come by bus. I came with Tammi True, another stripper. She had to come over and collect her salary. She had been fired by Ruby, and she was coming over to get her salary, so she brought my husband, and I went over to Dallas with her.

Mr. HUBERT. She had an automobile?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. She was living in Fort Worth?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When had she been fired, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. She had been fired Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why she was fired?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. There was a question about salary.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean she thought she should get more?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all park the automobile then?

Mrs. CARLIN. In the car lot next door.

Mr. HUBERT. Nichols’ car lot?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know the name of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened then?

Mrs. CARLIN. Then we got to the club and the doors were locked, and there was no sign of anybody being in there, so we thought----

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was about 8:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a sign up saying that the club would be closed?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were closed, but it didn’t say when or how long or when it would open or anything on it. We went upstairs to the Carousel Club--I mean the Colony Club next door and waited a few minutes hoping they would open up, thinking possibly it would be late, and we would wait up there 30 or 40 minutes. And my husband checked several times to see if they were open, and I said, “Tammy, if you are broke,”--she knew how to get ahold of him, because she was broke. She didn’t have any salary.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any money?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. None whatsoever?

Mrs. CARLIN. We had a little change. I think 40 or 50 cents, change. And Tammy said she didn’t want----

Mr. HUBERT. Between you and your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And I asked Tammy how to get ahold of Jack and she gave me his home phone, and that is when I tried to call Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you reach him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I reached him at home. He answered the telephone. And I asked Jack if we were going to be open, and he got very angry and was very short with me. He said, “Don’t you have any respect for the President? Don’t you know the President is dead?” And I said, “Jack, I am sorry. Andrew said that perhaps we would be open, and I don’t have any money, and you know I am supposed to get paid.” And I wanted some money on my pay to get back home. And he said, “I don’t know when I will open. I don’t know if I will ever open back up.” And he was very hateful. And he said something he had to come down to the club in about an hour and for me to wait and he would see me then. And I hung up and told my husband what had happened, and we waited and waited and he didn’t show up. That is when my husband and I went down to the garage and Tammi had to go see some friend there at the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. HUBERT. This first call that you made was not made from the garage?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was made from the Colony Club.

Mr. HUBERT. So then you went over to the garage?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Because we wouldn’t have any more money and we didn’t want to sit up there.

Mr. HUBERT. So then did you call Mr. Ruby again?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you or your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. My husband.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when your husband called?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear what your husband, at least, said on his end of the line?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; but I didn’t pay much attention. I was sitting in the chair talking to the man that was in there, the man that worked at the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. So you are not able to tell us really what happened on your husband’s end of the line?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, my husband then handed the phone to me and called me back to the phone so I got on the telephone and Jack said, “Tell the man at the garage, put him on the phone,” and he said, “I will let you have $5 to get back home.” And that was all that was said, and he gave me $5, and I signed a receipt, and that was all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the rest of your salary?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How much in fact was due at that time?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember. I had drew some on my salary. I wouldn’t say for sure, but I had drew some that week.

Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him not merely for $5, but all that was due you, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I was just asking him for an advance.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mrs. CARLIN. Because he had been nice to me and let me have an advance before, so I just wanted an advance until he got the club back open.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your salary due at the end of the week or the beginning?

Mrs. CARLIN. At the end of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t your salary due that Saturday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. I think it was; yes. I think I got paid on Saturday. It was either Saturday or Monday, I don’t remember, because I got my salary on Monday twice.

Mr. JACKSON. Karen, could you have gotten paid on Sunday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been Sunday. It was either Saturday or Sunday. I got paid twice on Monday.

Mr. JACKSON. On this particular night of November 23, on the telephone when you talked to Jack and he said I will let you have $5 through the garageman and, you signed the receipt, did you ask him for any given amount of money or just for some money?

Mrs. CARLIN. Just enough money to get back home on, and I happened to mention I would need money for rent tomorrow, and he said to call him.

Mr. JACKSON. Call him tomorrow?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He didn’t say what time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the Saturday night you did mention to him the question of getting not merely the $5, enough to get back, but really a part of your salary, which would become due whenever pay day was, whether it was Saturday night or Sunday or Monday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you that his remark was, “Well, I will let you have $5 now and then call tomorrow?”

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he would send you money the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he did--just said call him tomorrow and he would talk about that tomorrow.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the call that he wanted you to make on Sunday was with reference to your request for your pay?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that he was not disposed to talk about it then, but invited you to call him the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And mentioned no time at all?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, did you call him the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, where did you call him from?

Mrs. CARLIN. From our home.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that now?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember the address. Meadowbrook Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Weldon Thompson--did you all have a phone listed in your own name?

Mrs. CARLIN. Bruce Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it listed in your husband’s name?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That phone you used?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you called Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. At home.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a long distance call between Fort Worth and Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Charged to your phone, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you called him?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was 10. I think it was around 10 or 10:05 or 10:15, something like that. It was between that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be able to say with any degree of accuracy that it could not have been earlier than 10?

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been. I am not going to say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the fact of the matter is, the phone records show--I don’t have them before me, but the phone records show it was about that time. Could you just tell us the gist of the conversation with Jack on that occasion.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, Jack answered the telephone. And I told him who it was, and he said, “Yes, well,” and I said, “I have called, Jack, to try to get some money, because the rent is due and I need some money for groceries, and you told me to call.”

And he said, “How much will you need?” And I said--I’ll ask my husband, and then I said about “$25.”

Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was in the room with you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He was in the part of the front part of the house. And he said, “Well, I have to go downtown anyway, so I will send it to you by Western Union.” And he asked me what name to send it in, and I told him, “Karen Bennett.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged to be sent to your home or what?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; to Western Union downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about what time to expect it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I asked him what time, about how long, and he didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t say anything, or he said he didn’t know?

Mrs. CARLIN. He said, “Well,” he did say it would take a little while to get dressed and something about the dog, I don’t remember what it was. And he said, “I’ll go on down and send it to you.” And I said, “I sure would appreciate it.” And that is about all there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was your rent in fact due?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had your landlord been pressing you for the rent?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby seem to be annoyed that you were asking for money on Sunday?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he--not that Sunday, he didn’t seem to be annoyed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there was a difference in his attitude toward the money that you asked for on Sunday as opposed to the money you asked for the night before?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He still seemed upset, you know, or hateful, short, but he didn’t seem as much as he was Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. He definitely indicated to you that he would have to dress, is that correct?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He said, “It will take me about 20 or 30 minutes to get dressed, and then I will go on down.” And something that he had to do with the dogs’ freedom, I think.

Mr. JACKSON. About the dogs?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. He had some dogs. Kept them in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when did you first hear about Oswald’s shooting?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I heard that right after I talked to Jack. It wasn’t very long after that on the television, and my husband was watching the television and I was washing dishes, and my husband said, “Karen, isn’t that Jack?” And I said, I thought he was joking. I told him to shut up and I started laughing, and sure enough it came out that it was Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you saw pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. After that on the news.

Mr. HUBERT. Rerun, you mean?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about that famous picture that shows Jack coming through?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It shows really the back of him, doesn’t it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to recognize him?

Mrs. CARLIN. They knew his name. They had already broadcast his name.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when you saw, you recognized him? You mean you recognized his name before you saw any picture?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. My husband was the one that first saw him. I didn’t see it. It was a rerun, I think, that I saw, because they already had his name and that he had the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. This was prior to the time you went to Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I had not gone down to Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. This was prior?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do about the money at Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. After I saw the thing on television, I said I bet Jack didn’t send the money, so my husband dialed the number and he asked if they had a money order for me, and they said, “Yes.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean dialed the number to the Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. And he said, “Yes, they did.” Then my husband and I got dressed and after we ate, we got dressed and went down and picked it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. JACKSON. About what time was this call made, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. JACKSON. Could it have been in the afternoon?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. It probably was in the afternoon, because after I talked to Jack, we ate and washed dishes, and I cleaned up the house, and it took me a while to get dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you all went down to Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You signed the necessary papers?

Mrs. CARLIN. We had to take a bus down, so that took quite a while, too. I don’t remember what time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the money paid to the landlord, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; we paid the rent.

Mr. HUBERT. That same day?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if it was the same day or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you keep the money, or did you give it to your husband?

Mrs. CARLIN. I gave it to my husband. We didn’t have enough money to get back on the bus, so we had to take some of it and go back on the bus.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t follow you.

Mrs. CARLIN. We rode a bus downtown, and we had enough money to get downtown, but not enough to get back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to use part of the $25 to get back, but you gave the difference to him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had your landlord been pressing you for the money?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It wasn’t just the rent. It was groceries, too, because my husband wasn’t working at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not known Jack Ruby, I take it, prior to the time you first went to work for him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I had seen Jack Ruby one other time before that, but I didn’t know who he was.

My girl friend and I, a stripper, at the Theatre Lounge, was walking to the bus stop at the Greyhound bus station to get something to eat during our hour break, and we were walking, and this big Cadillac drove up and tooted the horn and my girl friend smiled and it turned out to be Jack Ruby after I met him. I knew who it was. But he left a card on the sidewalk in front of us saying the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before you went to work for him, then, did that episode take place?

Mrs. CARLIN. This was about 2 weeks before, because I went home and told my husband about it.

Mr. HUBERT. He was driving a Cadillac?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. There was three of them in the car, two men and one woman. I never did see the man or woman, didn’t recognize them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was Jack. It turned out to be Jack. I asked him if he was the one that was driving the car and threw the card on the sidewalk, and he said, “Yes, I was.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who the other people were in the car?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out subsequently what kind of car Jack drove?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This was definitely a Cadillac?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. It could have been the other person’s car he was driving.

Mr. HUBERT. There was one man?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was two men.

Mr. HUBERT. Two men besides Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. One besides Jack. Looked like a redheaded woman. After I saw Jack later--at that time I thought it was a stripper, but I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all riding in the front of the car?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The girl was in the middle, I take it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 weeks after that that you went to work for him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention the name of the girl who was with you at that time? I think you did.

Mrs. CARLIN. It could have been Jada.

Mr. HUBERT. I meant the girl that you were walking with?

Mrs. CARLIN. She was a stripper. I don’t remember her name. She had a hose act. I don’t remember her name.

Mr. HUBERT. Kathy Kay?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. My husband could probably--it was Liza Sommers, because he adored her little act.

Mr. HUBERT. Liza?

Mrs. CARLIN. Sommers.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Wally Weston?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he left?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I wasn’t there when he left. You are talking about the Carousel Club?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. No. I was never there when he performed there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he left before you got there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I met him after he left there and went in the theatre.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a time when a man by the name of Rocco came to the Carousel and took quite a number of pictures of Ruby and the girls and the acts and so forth?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was so many people taking pictures all the time, that I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. This was--this man was from a magazine or at least he was attempting--this was quite some time prior to the assassination, but he came there and--as an advertising stunt or something of the sort, and took quite a number of pictures. Do you remember that?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; because I remember two or three different ones that came before this ever happened, so I don’t know who you are talking about. But they were all supposed to be from some kind of magazine.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a picture of you and Tammi True and Jack together when Jack was sitting in his office in a chair and Tammi was on one side and you were on the other in sort of a crouch?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that picture?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About when was that taken, do you remember?

Mrs. CARLIN. That was before the shooting of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; I know. But how much longer, do you know?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. I am not any good on times or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us whether it was--how long after you went to work for Jack was that picture taken? Now I am talking about the one that I have just described with Ruby in the middle and Tammi on one side and you on the other?

Mrs. CARLIN. There was never one taken with Tammi. The only one I had taken was with--what is her name--the one that was pregnant.

Mr. HUBERT. The large redheaded girl, the one that appeared in a magazine?

Mrs. CARLIN. I can’t place her name.

Mr. HUBERT. Joy?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, Joy.

Mr. HUBERT. McDonald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can’t think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Her stage name was Joy Dale?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the one I meant. I said Tammi True, but I was mistaken myself. She had dark curly hair?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as to that picture, can you relate the time of taking that picture to the time when you first went to work there?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I guess it was a month after that, I know. At least, but I don’t know how much longer after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether it was summertime or----

Mrs. CARLIN. No; it was winter.

Mr. HILBERT. It was winter?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; it was getting cold.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it--I think I have asked you this before, but perhaps your memory is fresher now. Can you relate it to the time of the death of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. I would say 2 or 3 weeks before the death of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a rather large heavy fat man, very heavily built, who used to come to the Carousel almost every weekend and used to sit close by the stage and sort of carry on a banter with the theatre?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t know who he is. But I remember him. He weighed about 300 pounds.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Used to beat on the stage and holler and scream. I don’t remember--I don’t know his name. I never did meet him, but I remember him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not by name. I probably would know his face, but I don’t know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know what his relationship was to Ruby?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then do you know--and I don’t mean from your own knowledge at all, but from what you might have heard, what Jack’s relationship in general with people of the opposite sex was? What his relationship with girls was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I would rather not answer it.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. Mind you, I want it clear I was not asking in relation to anything with respect to you yourself, but as to what you have heard?

Mr. JACKSON. Did he ever make any advances towards you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; one time.

Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he did do that with the girls occasionally--make advances toward them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Proposition them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I knew of them going with him.

Mr. JACKSON. Dating them?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. He did date them some?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Did you know or had you heard anything concerning the possibility of any kind of homosexuality on the part of Jack?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. Is that just a rumor running out there, or what?

Mrs. CARLIN. That was from his mouth. He was always asking the question, “Do you think I am a queer? Do you think I look like a queer? Or have you ever known a queer to look like me?” Every time I saw him he would ask it.

Mr. JACKSON. Do you mean he would bring up the subject himself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he would say, “Do you think I look like one or act like one?”

Mr. JACKSON. Did he say he was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he just asked me, “Do I look like one.”

Mr. JACKSON. But he never admitted to you of being one?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. JACKSON. Or ever made any statements that indicated that he was a homosexual?

Mrs. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JACKSON. What you have told us here is all that you know about his abnormality, if any?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you throw any light upon his character with respect to whether he had a good temper or easygoing temper or quick temper?

Mrs. CARLIN. He was very quick tempered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe that yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us just one or two examples that would serve to illustrate why you have the impression that he was quick tempered.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, the time that makes me think he was so quick tempered there was two times.

One was with Tammi True. Tammi had--Joy Dale had been out of work for about a week. She had played sick, and this was known all over the club, so Tammi True was supposed to be taking their act. And Joy Dale’s act, making it hard on all of us. So Tammi went to Jack, and I was sitting in the office when she said, “Jack, I am going to be 5 minutes late for my show,” and Jack said, “Okay.” So she went to the back to get dressed, and I went back right after that, and he came back--the music started--he didn’t tell the band like he was supposed to, so the music went ahead and started for Tammi to go on, and that upset her. And Jack came back and said, “What the blank-blank * * *”

Mr. HUBERT. Used some obscene words?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you prefer not to use it yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it obscene?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she said, “Well, I had already told you that I was going to be late and you were supposed to let the band know, and you are blaming me.” And Jack said something else like, “Hurry up and get your ass dressed.”

Mr. HUBERT. And there again you used an obscene term which I take it you don’t care to use yourself, in reference to her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; and she then turned around and jumped on him and said, “If you can let Joy Dale hold out a whole week and make all of us suffer, you can damn sure wait on me.” And he said, “You are not going to con me. You may con other people, but you are not going to con me.” And he stormed out of the room. So the following show she was deliberately late, and he came back and raised cane again, and he said something about he was going to fire her if she didn’t straighten up, that she thought she could use him, and that is about all that was said. They kept fussing back and forth and calling each other names.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that that his manifestation of temper was first in the use of obscenity, and second in a loud tone of voice?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; screaming.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he manifest on that occasion or any occasion that he might use physical force, or did he ever as a matter of fact?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never saw him raise his hand to hit anybody or anything like that, although with Tammi, he did say he would throw her down the stairs if she didn’t straighten up. And she said, “I don’t have to leave. I have a contract.” And he said, “That contract don’t mean a God damn thing.”

Mr. JACKSON. You don’t have to use those words.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that that was one example. Do you have any others?

Mrs. CARLIN. With Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was about the same thing. She had came back to work and was supposed to be pregnant and sick, and she was dying, so she came in, she was late for her first show, and Jack didn’t say anything, and all of us girls were mad and wouldn’t talk to her. So she did her first show, and she was supposed to be hurting bad and she wanted to get out of the second show, and just came back from the week after staying out, and she went to Jack, and you could hear her plumb to the opposite office.

There was a wall, and you could hear her there fussing and cussing because she wanted to take off the second show. And he told her she had been off a week and he couldn’t afford to pay her salary when she wasn’t doing a job at all. And he said, “If you don’t like your job, you know what you could do.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an indication that there might have been some relationship between them other than business?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Well, I know it wasn’t hearsay. I know that they were going together, and Joy was using this over his head.

Mr. JACKSON. How do you know this?

Mrs. CARLIN. She told me, and also Jack made indications that he was going with her.

Mr. HUBERT. That she went to his apartment or he went to hers?

Mrs. CARLIN. Only what Joy would tell me, and Joy was a big liar. She was known to lie about things that she had no reason to lie about. She would lie about men making passes just to make the girls ask her questions and be the center of attention, so I wouldn’t say she was telling the truth when she said anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met Jack’s sister, Eva Grant?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know of her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met her?

Mrs. CARLIN. After the President’s killing, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her then?

Mrs. CARLIN. She was at the club and she was having an argument with Ralph. I believe it was either Ralph or the other gray-haired guy. I don’t know his name--about the club. That it was her club, she was going to run it, and Ralph was saying he was left in charge of the club, and as long as he was financing the club, she wasn’t going to run it. And there was an argument between her and one of the girls about the fact that she wasn’t going to work for Eva because she had tried to work for Eva and it wouldn’t work.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell me something about the gray-haired man other than the one you identified as Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. This was a--I don’t know his name. He was in there quite a bit after the President’s killing. He was in there almost every night. He was supposed to be one of Jack’s closest friends or supposed to have lived with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. That wouldn’t have been Senator, would it?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear that perhaps that man was one of his brothers?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It wasn’t one of his brothers.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything further about him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t, because I never did talk to him but once, and that was just about then. He was there a lot of times at the door. He took all the cover charges after that. Either him or Ralph was taking cover charges.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in authority?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn’t have authority. He thought he did, but he didn’t, because Ralph would tell him to do what was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at the Carousel prior to the time that Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. Just two or three times. He was sitting down at a table next to the cashier, where the cash register was. He was sitting there with the guy that Joy Dale was going with. I don’t remember his name, but it was a young boy. Tommy something.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the gray-haired man you saw sitting with a young man called Tommy?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Joy Dale’s boy friend?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. They were supposed to get married.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw them, this gray-haired man and Tommy, several times together?

Mrs. CARLIN. About two or three times, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the President’s death?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t know. I never did pay that much attention to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they always together, those two?

Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say they were together. He just was sitting there. I don’t know whether they left together or nothing, whether they were friends or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But they were sitting at the same table?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You wouldn’t remember if the two or three times prior to the President’s death that you saw them together were consecutive nights or not, would you?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did pay that much attention to either one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you think those two or three times, whatever they were, that you saw Tommy and the gray-haired man together, would have been within a week prior to the President’s death?

Mrs. CARLIN. I wouldn’t say, because I didn’t pay that much attention.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the gray-haired man that you have been referring to subsequently had really a job with the club? That is to say----

Mrs. CARLIN. No; not at that time, he wasn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean later. I said subsequently.

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was killed then this same gray-haired man had a job collecting the cover charges at the front door?

Mrs. CARLIN. Whether he was paid for it or not, he was doing it.

Mr. HUBERT. And he seemed to be, so far as you could tell, under the authority of Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph?

Mrs. CARLIN. Ralph.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I don’t know anything about Ralph.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is Ralph? Are you feeling bad?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. He is about 40 or 45, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Ralph Paul is?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; between 40 and 45. He is old. He is old to me.

Mr. JACKSON. I think that is the age of the interrogator.

Mrs. CARLIN. I am sorry, but he is old to me. Gray-haired and being so fat.

Mr. JACKSON. The closer you get to it, the younger it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Ruby since Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Only in court.

Mr. HUBERT. You testified in court?

Mrs. CARLIN. Two; I went to two different court hearings.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify twice or once?

Mrs. CARLIN. Twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the first one on the insanity hearing, I suppose?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know what the hearing was on. I think it was on the bond hearing. He was trying to get out on bond.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at his actual trial in the latter part of February and the first part of March?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what was the general nature of your testimony there?

Mrs. CARLIN. The same thing that has been asked here.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been interviewed by Mr. Belli prior?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; the only time I talked to Belli was on the bond hearing.

Mr. HUBERT. But you haven’t talked to Jack Ruby since you talked to him on the phone on Sunday the 24th?

Mrs. CARLIN. I can’t say the last time I talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Billy DeMar?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was one of the Emcee’s there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have heard the rumors that he is supposed to have said that he had seen Oswald in the club prior to the shooting of the President?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see pictures of Oswald afterward?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see anybody who looked like that man in the Carousel?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, just like I told the FBI, I have seen someone that looked like him. Whether it was him or whether I have seen him, he could favor anybody, you know. I have seen the face, something that looked, someone that looked like him, and I am not going to say it was in the club or where it was at, but I have seen someone that looked like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you didn’t know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. If you get tired, let me know, and we will stop. Let me ask you some concluding questions and we will take a little recess and I will gather my thoughts and see if we have anything more. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff prior to today?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Carlin, I have in my hand a document consisting of two pages which purport to be a copy of a report of an interview of you by Special FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman on November 26, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I am marking as follows: Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5318, Deposition of Karen B. Carlin. Do you spell your name with a “K” or “C”?

Mrs. CARLIN. K-a-r-e-n C-a-r-l-i-n.

Mr. HUBERT. Your first name is spelled with a “K”, but your last name is spelled with a “C”?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am signing my name below that, for the purpose of identification. On the second page thereof, in the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initials. Mrs. Carlin, I will ask you if you have had an opportunity, with your attorney, Mr. Jackson, to read this statement?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this statement a fair statement of the interview that you had with the FBI agents?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mir. Hubert. Do you see anything in it, and I will ask your attorney to assist you, since he helped you to read it and went over it, do you see anything that needs to be changed, adjusted, or modified?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the part where it says, “Just for rent.”

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to a sentence in the third paragraph about the middle of that paragraph which reads as follows, to wit: “She called Ruby again on Sunday, November 24, 1963, at 10 or 10:30 a.m., as she needed money to pay her rent.” Now that is the sentence that you are referring to, is that correct?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I didn’t ask him for just money for the rent. It was for groceries also.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually mentioned to him that it was for groceries as well as for rent?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have any other parts that you wish to change?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the last sentence in the third paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you are speaking of the sentence which reads as follows, to wit: “Karen used her Texas driver’s license as identification.” What comments do you wish to make about that, Mrs. Carlin?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was a California driver’s license.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other parts of that statement which are incorrect or need modification?

Mr. JACKSON. The fourth paragraph, first sentence which reads as follows: “At the time she talked with Ruby, Sunday morning, she asked him if the club was going to be open Sunday night. He became upset regarding this, then talked harshly to her, indicating that he did not feel she was showing the proper respect toward the deceased President.”

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make about that sentence?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was not Sunday that he said anything about the President. It was Saturday night that he talked real harshly regarding the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say then that when you spoke to him on Sunday morning, that the subject of the President was not mentioned at all?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right. He just sounded preoccupied and upset.

Mr. JACKSON. That was on Sunday that he sounded preoccupied?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he sounded distant. In other words, I called him back twice.

Mr. HUBERT. You called him back twice on Sunday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I am talking about when he was talking to me. I would say, “Jack, are you still there?” Or “Jack,” to get his attention back. He seemed like he was busy.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that when you would speak to him on the phone, you didn’t get a response, so it gave you the impression that he wasn’t there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would repeat your question?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other parts of this statement that you would like to make any comments about?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that other than the corrections that have been made, that this statement contains the truth, so far as you know it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you think should be deleted from it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mrs. Carlin, is there anything else you would like to say about any aspect that we have been talking about, or any fact that you might know that you have not heretofore stated to anyone?

Mrs. CARLIN. Nothing that I can think of.

Mr. JACKSON. Excuse me just a minute.

(Mr. Jackson and witness whisper to each other.)

Mr. HUBERT. May I see you a minute, Mr. Jackson?

(Mr. Jackson and Mr. Hubert confer off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. One more question, Mrs. Carlin. Did anyone ask you or suggest to you, directly or indirectly, that you make this call on Sunday morning to Mr. Ruby, or is it that you made this call for the purpose which you have already stated?

Mrs. CARLIN. The purpose of the call was for which I have already stated.

Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested that you make it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Jack told me to call him the following day.

Mr. HUBERT. But other than Jack no one else did?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Ma’am, I think that is all.

Mrs. CARLIN. There is one thing I would like to clear up, what I said a while ago. A while ago you asked me did Jack Ruby make a pass. It was not a pass, it was just asking me. It was not kissing or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I asked you that question. I think Mr. Jackson did.

Mr. JACKSON. In other words, he just asked you for a date, is that right?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. And you refused him?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. JACKSON. And that is the only time he ever made any advances toward you whatsoever?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now we have the transportation to take Mrs. Carlin back if she would like to go right away.

Mr. JACKSON. Do you want to go right now?

Mrs. CARLIN. I will wait until Bruce gets through.

Mr. HUBERT. If you want, you can sit right where you are.

Mrs. CARLIN. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF DOYLE E. LANE

The testimony of Doyle E. Lane was taken at 12:05 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the resolution, I am authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lane. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Lane, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Particularly the sending of the Western Union telegram. Now, Mr. Lane, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter sent to you, I believe, by Mr. J. Lee Rankin.

Mr. LANE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received by you prior to 3 days from today, was it not?

Mr. LANE. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, will you stand, sir, and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LANE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.

Mr. LANE. Doyle E. Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. LANE. Thirty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. LANE. Dallas, Tex. 6549 Lake Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LANE. Clerk, Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LANE. Eleven years.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular function do you have, as clerk?

Mr. LANE. Well, I’m a senior delivery clerk is what I am.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular office do you work for?

Mr. LANE. Work for the office at 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the main office of the Western Union here?

Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man by the name of Jack Ruby that day?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?

Mr. LANE. I had known him through patronage.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he came into the Western Union office that day you recognized him as Jack Ruby, a man with whom you had done Western Union telegraph business?

Mr. LANE. When he handed me the money order. I did not see him come in. I do not know when he came in.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you just state in your own words what transpired between you and Jack Ruby on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Mr. LANE. Well, he came to the counter and handed me the money order to be sent. I rated the money order and put the necessary transmission marks on it. Wrote out a receipt for the money he handed me and I believe it was $30, to pay for the money order. I handed him back his receipt and his change. He turned around and walked out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. The first time you saw him, therefore, is when he came up to the counter with a completed--partially completed form for the transmission of money by Western Union?

Mr. LANE. That is the first I had seen him that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you don’t know how long he was in the office?

Mr. LANE. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time he came up.

Mr. LANE. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a public telephone available to anyone who is in the lobby?

Mr. LANE. Yes, there is.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him use the telephone?

Mr. LANE. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. On that morning, was there any kind of radio, or TV in the Western Union office, whereby a person in that office could have heard the news concerning the pending transfer of Oswald from the city hall to the county jail?

Mr. LANE. Not in the office; no.

Mr. HUBERT. No one had a small radio or transistor?

Mr. LANE. The messenger boy had a transistor, but he was out delivering, and he did not get back until 10 or 15 minutes after that.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no radio or television audible or visible to anyone in the Western Union office at the time Jack Ruby was there?

Mr. LANE. No, there was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Lane, I am marking two documents, which have already been identified by Mr. W. W. Semingsen, president--vice president of the Western Union Telegram Co., when his deposition was taken by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, a member of the staff of the President’s Commission. On the first document I have marked “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5118, Deposition of Doyle Lane.” I have placed my name under this language. It purports to be a photostatic copy of the original which Mr. Semingsen produced at his deposition. In order that the record may show that you and I are both talking about the same document, I ask you to put your name below mine on this document. Now, I am marking the other document as follows: “Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5119, Deposition of Doyle Lane,” and signing my name on that, and ask you to put your name on it so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, I ask you to look at Exhibit 5118, and state for the record what that document is.

Mr. LANE. This is a money order application filed to send money. $25. Karen Bennett, Fort Worth, Tex., from Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there are several handwritings on that, and, of course, you will identify your own in a moment. Can you state for the record what handwriting was on that, or what was on that document at the time it was handed to you by Ruby?

Mr. LANE. “25.00 Karen Bennett. Will call. Fort Worth. Jack Ruby.”

Mr. HUBERT. That all seems to be printed?

Mr. LANE. That is printed; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby write it out?

Mr. LANE. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did hand it to you in that form?

Mr. LANE. He did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you money at the same time?

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how much?

Mr. LANE. $30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he took it out of his wallet, or a roll of money, or what?

Mr. LANE. He took it from several bills in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. What denominations were the bills that he handed to you?

Mr. LANE. A $20 and a $10 bill.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you state what you did with reference to this transaction?

Mr. LANE. You mean my markings?

Mr. HUBERT. Your markings and your actions, yes.

Mr. LANE. Well, when he handed me this I rated the money order.

Mr. HUBERT. You did what?

Mr. LANE. The charges.

Mr. HUBERT. Rated, [spelling] R-a-t-e-d?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What does “rated” mean?

Mr. LANE. It is actual money order charges that we charge to transmit this money to its destination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that rating process indicated by you on that Exhibit 5118?

Mr. LANE. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. LANE. In that top right-hand corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that in?

Mr. LANE. That is my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. What figures are you talking about?

Mr. LANE. “$25.55, the $1.20, and 12 cents tax. $26.87.”

Mr. HUBERT. So, you did give him change?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the printed message there are the words, “Fort Worth,” scratched out, and something, who wrote that?

Mr. LANE. I wrote that. It was spelled wrong to begin with, and I wrote that for this purpose. We have to have a full destination in the body of a money order. He just used Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that you scratched out the “F.” W-o-r-t-h, and then wrote in your own handwriting Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. LANE. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And you identify your own handwriting, sir?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice in the bottom right-hand corner of Exhibit 5118, the words and figures as follows: “1312½ Commerce.” Whose handwriting is that?

Mr. LANE. It is mine.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information?

Mr. LANE. From Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You asked him?

Mr. LANE. I said, “Your address?” And he gave me his address.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there apparently is a time stamp on the top of this document that says, “1963, November 24, a.m. 11:17.” Would you explain what that is?

Mr. LANE. That is the time that money order was accepted for transmission at the counter.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, explain when and how that stamp is placed--placed upon that document?

Mr. LANE. This stamp was placed here when I handed Mr. Ruby back his receipt for his money and his change, because in our language that is the--accepting a money order for transmission at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was not stamped when Mr. Ruby first came to begin the transaction?

Mr. LANE. No; it was not.

Mr. HUBERT. It was required that you do what you said you have done concerning the document, to make the correction about “Fort Worth,” to do the rating?

Mr. LANE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you write out the address at the bottom?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And to make the change and give it to him?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 11:17, therefore, represents the moment when the transaction was over?

Mr. LANE. When it is completed.

Mr. HUBERT. And actually, it could have begun a few moments or minutes before?

Mr. LANE. A minute or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish you to explain for the record what kind of a timeclock this is. And what steps are taken by the Western Union Co. locally and nationally to assure the accuracy of that timeclock?

Mr. LANE. This timeclock is set up on a national level. Hooked up with the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C. And at 11 a.m., each day, all clocks stop and all time is synchronized. The timeclock we have on the counter rotates on a minute basis. It could be 1 minute, you know, either way. I think back----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, the particular timeclock that was used to stamp this machine, is that the master clock--I mean to stamp this document, is this the master clock?

Mr. LANE. No; it is not.

Mr. HUBERT. What clock is synchronized to Naval Observatory Time?

Mr. LANE. It is the clock in the P&R office, there for the purpose of having somebody to check it and make sure it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it the custom of the company to have all of the master clocks throughout the Nation synchronized each day at 11 o’clock?

Mr. LANE. It is. It very definitely is. Our business is built on the time basis.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how is the particular timeclock which was used to stamp the time on Exhibit 5118 synchronized to the master clock in Dallas?

Mr. LANE. When the master clock is set by the Naval Observatory Time, at the same time our master clock here synchronizes all our timeclocks.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that done automatically?

Mr. LANE. It is done automatically.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state, therefore, that from your knowledge of how time and timeclocks throughout the Western Union system are set, that at 11 o’clock on November 24th, the master clock in Dallas and the particular timeclock used to stamp Exhibit 5118, were all synchronized on Naval Observatory Time?

Mr. LANE. Yes; they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which, for the purpose of identification, I have marked, “Dallas, Texas, Exhibit 5119,” already identified by you, and your name appears on it, and ask you to tell me what that is?

Mr. LANE. This is a copy of the original receipt that I wrote for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in your handwriting?

Mr. LANE. That is my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the original itself?

Mr. LANE. The original is given to the customer. It was given to Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember giving it to him?

Mr. LANE. Yes; very definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that document given to him when the change was given to him?

Mr. LANE. When the change was given back, his receipt was given back at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that document also bears a time at the top of it. What time does it show?

Mr. LANE. 11:17.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you say it was stamped or would you say it was stamped at the same time as Exhibit 5118?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In the normal course of business, which one would be stamped first?

Mr. LANE. There would be no first. We stamp them at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. But, it takes two different actions.

Mr. LANE. Not fully.

Mr. HUBERT. No? Do you mean----

Mr. LANE. We have carbons. See, like on this receipt. That is a carbon receipt. Well, you would stamp it one--or both could be stamped at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. But, both have to actually be put in the machine, don’t they?

Mr. LANE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice the times on those documents are in terms of minutes.

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is nothing to indicate the fractions of minutes involved?

Mr. LANE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to say that the time that these transactions took place could not have been earlier than 11:17 a.m., of November 24, nor later than 11:18?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I would be willing to state that.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you can’t tell whether it would be 11:17 and a half or something of that sort?

Mr. LANE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You do know that the clock mechanism had turned already to 11:17, but it had not yet turned to 11:18?

Mr. LANE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. After you had handed Mr. Ruby his change and the original receipt, of which 5119 is a copy, what did he do?

Mr. LANE. He turned immediately from the counter, went through the door and went out and turned to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. How much distance is there between the counter and the door?

Mr. LANE. Oh, approximately 8 or 10 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, he went out the door that opened on Main Street?

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he turned to his left?

Mr. LANE. To the left as you are facing the street.

Mr. HUBERT. In what direction would he then--towards what street would he then be going?

Mr. LANE. Toward Harwood Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay any appreciable length of time in the office after you had handed him the change and the receipt?

Mr. LANE. No, he did not spend anytime--he went straight to the door.

Mr. HUBERT. He simply accepted the change and the receipt. Do you know what he did with them?

Mr. LANE. I have no idea. I mean, he had them in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t put them in his pocket?

Mr. LANE. Not immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him put them in his pocket?

Mr. LANE. No, I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you observe him after he left the office and turned to his left?

Mr. LANE. No, after he turned he would be out of sight--the shades were drawn on that side, and I just saw him turn, and that was the last I saw of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be walking fast, slow, medium?

Mr. LANE. Just ordinary gait.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice on Exhibit 5118, another time, which seems to be 1963, November 24, p.m., 12:26. What does that mean?

Mr. LANE. That is the time that the money order was put into the wire in the upstairs office----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, explain what you do after the application is accepted, the money received, the change given back, the receipt given to the customer?

Mr. LANE. I put it in a tube, suction tube that takes it directly upstairs to be transmitted.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you endorse anything on the application at that time?

Mr. LANE. I endorse nothing. I have done all that before.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. “MOD,”----

Mr. LANE. “MOD,” is a transmission mark.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your handwriting?

Mr. LANE. Yes, it is.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the significance?

Mr. LANE. Money Order Department, Fort Worth from Money Order Department, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. That is done before it is stamped by the clock?

Mr. LANE. Before it is stamped.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, once you put it in the tube, that is the end of it, as far as you are concerned?

Mr. LANE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your experience in your 10 or 12 years employment with Western Union what happens when it gets upstairs?

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir; it is removed from the tube, put on a sending position, and sent. This day it was different because of the press. Press releases coming in immediately, and many of them, so, it was delayed quite a while. Ordinarily, it is about 20 minutes from here to Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. But, that stamp on 5118, is the Dallas time of----

Mr. LANE. Time it was actually transmitted here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that work on the same clock system that you were speaking of before?

Mr. LANE. A different machine, but synchronized, by the same master clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned something about a lot of press releases coming in which delayed the message a little bit. Those press releases were being handled upstairs, were they?

Mr. LANE. Most of them were.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any being handled downstairs?

Mr. LANE. Well, reporters, running in there with scribbled notes.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, do you recall whether any reporters came in with any kind of notes, or saying anything during the time that Jack Ruby was there, which would have indicated to Ruby that the transfer of Oswald was imminent?

Mr. LANE. Oh, no. There was, as I recall--like I say, I don’t always notice who comes in that office, because it is a stopping place for everyone, but as I remember, my previous customer, before Jack Ruby, turned around and left after the transaction. Ruby came up and was right there. He just handed me the money order, apparently he had come in while I was waiting on the other customer, because I believe there were only the two in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. After the first customer left, there was only you and Ruby at the counter?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember anybody coming in?

Mr. LANE. Well, there was nobody between that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember anybody coming in while Ruby was there indicating in any way whatsoever that the transfer of Oswald was going to happen very shortly?

Mr. LANE. Oh, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time between 10:30 and 11:20 that an armored car had driven up and been placed in the Commerce Street entrance of the jail?

Mr. LANE. No, I was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible for an individual who has a telephone, to send money by use of a telephone instead of filing an application personally and paying over the money in cash?

Mr. LANE. Not an individual. Not just the ordinary telephone subscriber is not.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your answer that in certain instances it is possible.

Mr. LANE. It is possible by prearrangement only.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what that would mean?

Mr. LANE. Ordinarily a prearrangement is a money deposit--deposit with Western Union a certain sum of money and they are usually companies. In fact, most of ours are companies that make these deposits in order that they can phone that money order to be sent, we have money on deposit, we send it.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a prepaid money order?

Mr. LANE. A prepaid arrangement.

Mr. HUBERT. All that happens over the telephone is the request that money already made on deposit be sent to a certain address?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible to do it that way when no money is placed on deposit?

Mr. LANE. Only on a prearranged basis. Sometimes we won’t require deposits if they are legitimate companies and a good credit rating with us.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack Ruby had any such arrangement?

Mr. LANE. No; he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it normal for any individual to have it?

Mr. LANE. No; it is very seldom. In fact, we don’t even have any in Dallas, individuals.

Mr. HUBERT. Only companies?

Mr. LANE. Only companies.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any kind of security device to be sure that the person calling is really authorized to be sending the money either on deposit or to be charged?

Mr. LANE. Every money order called in is confirmed by telephone with certain individuals within the firm.

Mr. HUBERT. That is by prearrangement also?

Mr. LANE. That is by prearrangement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what system is used by the Western Union Co., from your experience with the company during your tenure of employment with them in connection with the payment of money to the addressee? What is the normal system? What usually happens?

Mr. LANE. Well, that depends on whether he comes into the office or not. In this instance the girl had identification as required. They have--the paying clerk has to be satisfied within his or her own mind that the individual they are talking to is the correct person, and like I say, identification is required.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how does the Western Union office at the receiving end get the information about paying money?

Mr. LANE. It is transmitted over the wires to the receiving end, stating the amounts to be paid, the person to be paid to, the person’s address if they sent it, and the person it is from.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when that is received, is a check written out payable to that person, or how is it handled?

Mr. LANE. If it is to be delivered a Western Union check is written. If it is to be picked up a cash receipt copy is made out and attached to the money, and when the person comes in and gives them the identification required, asks them the required questions, such as, “How much are you expecting? Who is it from? Where is it from?” They have to answer those questions.

Mr. HUBERT. And is any identification of the individual required?

Mr. LANE. Yes; it is very definitely personal identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what system is used by way of timing the various transactions on the receiving end?

Mr. LANE. On the receiving end, whenever the telegram is received in the receiving office, it is time stamped.

Mr. HUBERT. It is time stamped by use of the same kind of machine that you have identified before?

Mr. LANE. That we used before.

Mr. HUBERT. Synchronized to the national time?

Mr. LANE. That is correct, and also timed at the time of payment. Time you actually give the addressee the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Stamped with the same clock?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, all of this time that we have been speaking of is central standard time?

Mr. LANE. Central standard time; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Lane, that we have not covered?

Mr. LANE. No; I can’t think of anything that we haven’t covered.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff other than myself prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. LANE. No; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there was an interview between you and me, was there not, just before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. LANE. Well, that is correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have we covered in this deposition everything that we talked about in the course of the interview?

Mr. LANE. Yes; we have.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you--has there been anything of a material nature at all covered in the interview which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mr. LANE. Not a thing that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ELNORA PITTS

The testimony of Elnora Pitts was taken at 2:40 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Elnora Pitts.

Mrs. Pitts, my name is Leon Hubert.

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel for the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, issued by President Johnson----

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And by a Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you today.

I say to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in particular, as to you, Mrs. Pitts, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, particularly those facts concerning Jack Ruby.

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you are appearing here as a result of a letter sent to you by J. Lee Rankin?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. General Counsel of the Commission. You have received that letter, haven’t you?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received more than 3 days from today?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; it was--it must have been longer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?

Mrs. PITTS. But, the man there, Mr. Sorrels----

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels?

Mrs. PITTS. They called me and talked with me and called me again and told me to come today.

Mr. HUBERT. But, the letter was received more than 3 days ago?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Because 3 days ago would be last Saturday, and it was received before that, wasn’t it?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind rising and taking the oath? Raise you right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. For the record, will you state your name.

Mrs. PITTS. My name is Elnora Pitts.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are a widow?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And your husband’s name was what?

Mrs. PITTS. McKinley.

Mr. HUBERT. And he has been dead how long?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, it has been a long time. Just exactly the date, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not remarried?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your maiden name, before you married?

Mrs. PITTS. Elnora Magee.

Mr. HUBERT. Magee. How old are you, Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I was born 1903. That makes me about 60, don’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mrs. PITTS. I live at 1316 East Jefferson.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff.

Mr. HUBERT. Oak Cliff?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you do for a living, Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. PITTS. I work in apartment houses.

Mr. HUBERT. In apartment houses?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work do you do?

Mrs. PITTS. That is cleaning. Cleaning, you see, from one apartment to another but I don’t----

Mr. HUBERT. You work in several apartment houses?

Mrs. PITTS. I go--I don’t work everyday. When they call me I go; yes; and then I have some regulars.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, some apartments that you clean everyday, or every week, or certain times?

Mrs. PITTS. Certain time every week.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. I know him, but----

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, now, that, I would have to get the real information on Mr. David, Glen David, that was the manager of the apartments there. He was with me down here on Ewing, Mr. David was, and then they transferred me on over to another apartment on Ewing where this Jack Ruby lived, so, just to tell the truth how long that I worked for Mr. Ruby somewhere--so--along 8 or 9 or maybe 10 months.

Mr. HUBERT. How often did you go to his apartment?

Mrs. PITTS. I went one part of a day. On--I first started going to him on Tuesday, and then he said that was because he hadn’t cleaned it in a long time, and it was in a bad shape, so he paid me 7½ to clean it the first time, and so, next time he paid me $4 and give me busfare and then he said to me, said, “Well, it is getting pretty dirty,” said, “I’m going to give you a little raise now today,” and I said, “All right.” So, the next time he give me 5½. From then on he pay me 5½.

Mr. HUBERT. That is for how much time?

Mrs. PITTS. Until then I was going on Tuesday. Then he changed it then until Saturday and from Saturday to Sunday. He says he had company and wanted it fresh and clean on Sunday, and asked me if I would come on Sunday morning and I told him, “Yes,” so that is why I called him that Sunday morning, because that was my time to go, because I had something to do at home before I went, so then I didn’t go.

Mr. HUBERT. So, as of November 24, 1963, it was your custom to go there on a Sunday morning?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I guess that was the time when he done his killing, was it?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, November 24 is the day that Oswald was shot.

Mrs. PITTS. Uh-huh. Well, then I called him on the next Sunday----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this----

Mrs. PITTS. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been going to him regularly on Sundays before?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You always called?

Mrs. PITTS. I called--called him, and always called the manager because I went once and I didn’t call so they had to do something in there, and he had a dog, and I was scared of this dog, so, the manager, she was there, and she said, “Well, I will lock the dog in the bathroom,” and I said, “No; I don’t work that way. I will just go back home.”

So, the next time I didn’t call and she was gone and he was gone, too, and I--from then on I always called.

Mr. HUBERT. And you called about what time in the morning?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, just different times, but that morning I don’t know what time it was that I called. I know that it was 8:30, or might have been later than that. I really don’t know for--I didn’t look at the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. That morning--what morning do you mean?

Mrs. PITTS. I think it was Sunday morning, you know, when you was saying about----

Mr. HUBERT. When Oswald was shot?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you do remember that Oswald was shot----

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was on Sunday?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you do know that Mr. Ruby was accused of shooting Mr. Oswald and was tried, as a matter of fact?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is the man we are talking about, is that right?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is the Sunday we are talking about?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You called in there, as was your custom----

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. To do the regular weekly----

Mrs. PITTS. Cleaning.

Mr. HUBERT. Work, and you say you don’t know what time it was?

Mrs. PITTS. No, I don’t, but it was--it was after 8. I know way after 8, and when I called him he said to me, “What do you want?” And I said----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize his voice?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I’ll tell you how he talked to me, then I said, “What do I want?” I says, “This is Elnora.” He says, “Yes, well, what--you need some money?” And I says, “No; I was coming to clean today.”

“Coming to clean?” Like you know, like he just----

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you told him that you were coming to clean he seemed to express some surprise, is that it?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; like he didn’t know that I was going to come and clean.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize you?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t know if he did or not. And I says to him again, I says, “This is Elnora.” And he says, “Well, what do you want?” And I said, “Well, I was coming to clean today.”

“You coming now?” And I says, “No.”

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you then, “Are you coming now?”

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; and then I says, “No.” And he says, “Well, what you got to do?” And I says, “I have got to go to the store for the children.” I always goes to the store for the children before I come to work whenever I come. He says, “Well,”--I says, “You seem so funny to me.” And I says, “Do you want me to come today?” And he says, “Well, yes; you can come, but you call me.” And I says, “That’s what I’m doing now, calling you so I won’t have to call you again.” And he says, “And you coming to clean today?” And I said, “Yes.” Well, he sounded so strange to me but I still wouldn’t say nothing to him. I just stopped another few minutes, and I said, “Who am I talking to? Is this Mr. Jack Ruby?” And he said, “Yes. Why?” And I said, “Oh, nothing.” But he just sounded terrible strange to me, so, I said, “Well, I’ll call you.” And he says, “But, I don’t see why I called you.” And he said, “Yes, so I can tell you where the key will be and the money.” And I said, “Okay.” So, I hung up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange a time to go then?

Mrs. PITTS. He told me to call him before I come.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time?

Mrs. PITTS. I told him that I would be there before 2 and he says for me to call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he suggest 2 o’clock?

Mrs. PITTS. No; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say when you suggested 2?

Mrs. PITTS. He said, “Why so late?”

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you say?

Mrs. PITTS. I told him, said, “Well, I have got to go to the store, and I have got some things to do.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you had some cleaning to do?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I had some cleaning to do, straightening up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he agree that 2 o’clock would be all right?

Mrs. PITTS. No; he didn’t seem to think that 2 o’clock was all right.

Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to call him?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; he asked me to call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to call him at 2 or what?

Mrs. PITTS. No; he says, “You call me before 2,” that is what he says. He says, “Be sure you call me.” To call before 2, “Before you come.” He says, “You call me before 2, before you start,” and I says, “Well, what I have to call you again for?” And he says, “Well, so I can tell you where the key is and the money.” And I said, “Uh-huh.”

So, before I could, you know, hang up, he says, “Be sure and call me.” “Did you say you was coming in today?” And I said, “Yes.” And when he said that, that’s when it kind of scared me, so, I just hung--I say, “okay,” and I hung up.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you scared about?

Mrs. PITTS. The way he talked. He didn’t talk like--he never did sound like hisself to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure you were talking to him?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I guess so.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever talked to him before on the telephone?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, it sounded like him in one way, and when he went to talking, you know, just saying the same thing two or three times, that is what--that is when I asked him, you know, if I was talking to Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there was some doubt in your mind as to whether it was Jack Ruby?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. It was a doubt in something wrong with him the way he was talking to me. Other things--times I would have, you know, just laid my work down and went ahead on.

I called my daughter and told her, and she said, “Well, are you going over there now?” And, “No; he don’t sound right to me over the phone. I am going to wait.”

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at is this, whether or not you can say it was Jack Ruby that you were talking to but that he seemed different?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; that was him.

Mr. HUBERT. Or whether or not he seemed so different that you were not sure that it was Jack Ruby?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. It was him. I’m sure of that, but then he just was indifferent. He sure did talk indifferent; yes, sir. He sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he tell you that he was going out, or that he would be back around 2?

Mrs. PITTS. Said he was going out, he would try to be back by 2. That is what he told me. He says, “You call me before.” That is what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when he was going out, Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; didn’t tell me, says, “I am going out.” That is what he says, and I says to him, I says, “If you are going to have company or something”--I says, “I can wait and come tomorrow.” He said, “Oh, no; you come on.”

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix a little better for us the time that this conversation took place?

Mrs. PITTS. It was after 8 o’clock, was way after 8, but just to tell the truth----

Mr. HUBERT. You say “Way after 8,” you mean way after 8 on the way to 9?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I imagine somewhere around 8:30, then, I guess it was.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t after 9?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; it wasn’t after 9.

Mr. HUBERT. How can you be sure about that? Is there anything that you remember that makes you say it was not before 8 but afterward, and not before 9?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, the children had the programs on Sundays, and I know then that they was a, you know, singing, and that is why I know it was between 8--8:30 and 9.

Mr. HUBERT. That was what I was trying to get at, get something that you could identify so that you could fix the time that way.

Mrs. PITTS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to church, perhaps, that day?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Children go to church?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; they--they was intending to go to church. One--you see, one, I think, did go to Sunday school, but church.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he go?

Mrs. PITTS. That one going to Sunday school was ready and gone before then.

Mr. HUBERT. What time does Sunday school begin?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, Sunday school begins around, I think, 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he had already gone?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you say----

Mrs. PITTS. Have to walk a little piece.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that help you to fix the time of the conversation with Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, that program there, that is what I----

Mr. HUBERT. What program was it?

Mrs. PITTS. Something on that KBOX program where those preaching, you know, and having church there, and that is the reason I said it is between 8:30 and 9.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first spoke to Mr. Ruby, did he seem to have just awakened, or what?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I don’t know know if he----

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he had just awakened?

Mrs. PITTS. No; I didn’t ask him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. George Senator?

Mrs. PITTS. I know of him. I cleaned for him twice.

Mr. HUBERT. He lived in the same apartment, or a different one?

Mrs. PITTS. He was living next door to him when I cleaned for him. He was 206, and Mr. Ruby was 205.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see. This apartment that you were going to clean on November 24, what was the number of it?

Mrs. PITTS. That was Mr. Ruby. In 205.

Mr. HUBERT. Sure it was not 207?

Mrs. PITTS. That is it. He--206. Senator was right next door.

Mr. HUBERT. Next door, or across?

Mrs. PITTS. No; right against Mr. Ruby’s, and, Senator--and Mr. George Senator was right at--you’re right, 207. I keep saying 205, but it was 207.

Mr. HUBERT. 207?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether or not Mr. Senator and Mr. Ruby were sharing apartment 207 on November 24, or sometime before that?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I hadn’t been there in--and seen him. I hadn’t, but when I had went there and cleaned--started to clean his apartment where Mr. George used to live, and he had moved out, but when--where did he move then, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. So, any Sunday you ever went to Mr. Ruby’s apartment, you don’t know whether Mr. Senator was sharing that apartment or not?

Mrs. PITTS. No; he would come over there when he lived right there next to him, but, see, when he moved, well, then, I hadn’t been there in a long time, so, then, I had seven vacant apartments to do just before this all happened, so, then I----

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby have a two-bedroom apartment?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you noticed before that both bedrooms had been occupied by people, that is to say, by cleaning up, by seeing that the beds had been slept in and so forth, you can tell when the rooms----

Mrs. PITTS. No; the bed was made. Now, the manager told me, but I didn’t see him there. Now, the manager told me that they must--this man Senator had moved over there, but then I didn’t see him there.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t pay you?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Mr. Senator over the phone?

Mrs. PITTS. No, no. I--he called me from his apartment once and talked to me about coming to clean for him, but he didn’t talk to me, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it possible that the man you spoke to on November 24, was not Mr. Ruby, but Mr. Senator?

Mrs. PITTS. It sounded like Mr. Ruby, but he just--he started talking off all right and then he would go, you know, to talking funny to me, and don’t sound like himself, and hollering and talking loud and that is something he didn’t ever do.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean kind of mad at you?

Mrs. PITTS. No; it wasn’t mad, but just talking strange, you know how a person talks strange, kind of. Don’t really understand what they are really saying, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You testified, didn’t you, in Mr. Ruby’s trial?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been interviewed prior to that by his attorney?

Mrs. PITTS. Say had I been what?

Mr. HUBERT. Interviewed prior to your testimony in the trial by his attorney?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; by his--Mr. Belli.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Belli? He talked to you?

Mrs. PITTS. He talked to me. He come out there and got me when I was sitting out there waiting. They had--Mr. Burleson was the one that talks to me over the phone and told me that I had to come down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you whether or not his voice was strange?

Mrs. PITTS. They just told me to tell how he talked to me, so, that is what I did. That is what he said that they wanted to know. So, that is what I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you were interviewed by Mr. Jack French, special agent of the FBI, around 2 or 3 days after this shooting occurred?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you told Mr. French at that time that you thought that Mr. Ruby’s voice sounded odd the way you testified today?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that, but he told me what he was wanting to know if I had seen any books or letters or papers around there, and that I didn’t ever look, and----

Mr. HUBERT. But you say you told Mr. French that you thought that Mr. Ruby’s voice was odd like you testified to today?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that, or was the first time that you testified like that at the time of the Ruby trial?

Mrs. PITTS. Did I do what now?

Mr. HUBERT. I say, are you sure that you told Mr. French about Mr. Ruby’s strange sounding voice or what----

Mrs. PITTS. I told----

Mr. HUBERT. Or was the first time you testified about that voice at the time of the trial?

Mrs. PITTS. I told him some of it. He told me he wasn’t interested in that. He said what he wanted to know if I’d seen a lot of people around there. I didn’t see, because I wasn’t there every day.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it suggested to you by anyone that you should say that his voice was strange there?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him that.

Mr. HUBERT. No; did anybody suggest to you, at anytime that you should testify that Mr. Ruby’s voice seemed odd that day?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; nobody didn’t tell me that, just told me to tell how he talks to me, so, that is what I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had also told that to Mr. French?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes; I told him he sounded funny to me and strange, and scare me, and there is another reason I didn’t just drop my work at home and go ahead home, because I could have went on to the store right there close and--but I wouldn’t do it, because he talked so funny to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you decided at that time that you weren’t going over there that day?

Mrs. PITTS. I guess when I talked to him--after I hung up I called my daughter and told her about it, said, “He sure sounded funny to me.” And, so, she said, “Are you going, mama?” And I said, “No.” And, directly my little bitty granddaughter, the oldest granddaughter there, and they says, “Is this name Jack Ruby, Rubinstein, or something?” And I said, “No; Jack Ruby.” Says, “Well, that news is where--there he done killed a man.” But I said, “Killed who?” So, she said--“Oswald.” Well, it didn’t--this Oswald, I don’t know nothing about him, so, I said, “That isn’t him, because this is Rubinstein. It’s Ruby is what he told me.” All I ever did know was Jack Ruby, so, I called my daughter again, and I says to her, I says, “They’ll show that on TV, and they call the dog Sheba”--there, that’s him, and I said, “You stay there and look and call me back.”

I still kept working, because I didn’t think it was him, so, she--directly she called me and says, “Yes.” It is on TV and is a little, short, heavy man kind of bald-headed, I say, “Yes.” And called me back and said where he lived, and sure enough, and I said, I knowed there was something wrong with that man. I didn’t go on over there--and was glad that I didn’t go. No doubt when--went over there when he was talking the way he was talking he would turned around there and shot me.

Mr. HUBERT. Explain that a little bit. I don’t think you have told us much about what he told you. As I understand your testimony he seemed a little vague, but, he told you to come on and clean but call before?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, he told you that he thought he would be back by 2 o’clock?

Mrs. PITTS. He told me be sure and call.

Mr. HUBERT. What was strange about that?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, see, he asked me that two or three times, now, was I coming over, and what was I coming over there for, and I had to tell him, and told him that I was coming to work.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was several times, Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That you had to identify yourself, as it were?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; I told him who I was and told him, says, “I’m coming to clean.” See, I had borrowed $25 from him a while back and paid him the money back, and I thought when he asked me did I want some money I--and says, “Oh, no; I don’t want to borrow no money today. I am coming to clean.” Told him coming to clean today. Is so--it’s Sunday, you’ve always told me to wait until Tuesday and then Saturday, and back to Sunday, and I says, “And today is Sunday.” And he says, “Oh.” And I said----

Mr. HUBERT. He says, What?

Mrs. PITTS. He says, “Oh,”--and I says to him, I says, “If you don’t want me to come on, if you have got somebody--company or something, I can wait and come tomorrow. I’ll wait and come tomorrow if you say so.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mrs. PITTS. “No, you come now, but you call me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, was there anything else peculiar about the conversation?

Mrs. PITTS. Then, he didn’t seem to know who I were at first. Turned and says to me, says, “Are you coming over here? What you coming over here for?” And I says, coming over to clean. I says, “Today is Sunday.” He says, “well--I didn’t seem to think that I would have to tell him that.

“Come over to clean I will leave the keys for you and come and start, and you can come on and clean,” and I said, “Yes, sir.” Well, then, I was getting arrangements made to start and he turned to me again and say, “What you coming for?” And I said, “Well, I’m coming to clean and dust.”

Mr. HUBERT. He said that several times?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Also, some little sound in his voice you think?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say something about his being kind of rude, now, or rough?

Mrs. PITTS. No; he hollered and something----

Mr. HUBERT. Hollered?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Hollered? What do you mean?

Mrs. PITTS. And in talking about these things, yes, sir, he says, “What you--what are you--what do you want?”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say a loud voice like you just raised your voice right now.

Mrs. PITTS. “What do you want?” and I says, “What you want?” And he said, “Yes,”--said, “This is Elnora. I was coming to clean.” He says, “Elnora? Who is Elnora?” Elnora Pitts. He mostly called me Eleanor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse you or anything like that?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; he didn’t cuss.

Mr. HUBERT. He just raised his voice and did not understand, you would have to repeat things several times?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that bothered you so that you made up your mind you weren’t going that day?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes; scared me.

Mr. HUBERT. You were fearful that he might hurt----

Mrs. PITTS. I didn’t think he might hear--that is, he might hurt me, but I was scared something was wrong with him by him asking me that two or three times and he never did ask me that. And I always would call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mrs. PITTS. I would always call him and say I would be there. There was going to be nobody there. At times he would be leaving and take the dog along because I don’t work where there’s dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. What dog?

Mrs. PITTS. Sheba. I’ve been dog-bit twice so, I am just scared of dogs, and I don’t go where dogs is in the place, and that is the reason I refused to go when the manager opened the door for me and told me she would put him in the bathroom, and I told her I would go on home and come back again.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a gun in that apartment?

Mrs. PITTS. I never did see it. I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a lot of money?

Mrs. PITTS. He did.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, there would be on the coffee table top, dining room table, on his dresser, be behind the dresser, on the floor. I would pick it up and put in those things, brown envelope sacks and sack it up, and put it on the dresser.

Mr. HUBERT. Lots of money?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, I guess it was right smart, but it wasn’t no--way up in the hundreds or----

Mr. HUBERT. Rolls of money?

Mrs. PITTS. No; just loose money.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on several times that you noticed that?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; lots of times, because I refused to clean his dresser off, and his coffee table, and the manager told me, said, “Jack Ruby said I had left the coffee table and dresser, and I said,” “Do you know why?” And say, “No.” “Because he had money laying all over both the table and on his dresser, and on the table.” And I says--“and I don’t dust them, because I don’t--by him being a Jewish man, I don’t want him to say I taken the money, you know. I don’t steal, you know that.”

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. PITTS. He says, “No.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. PITTS. Now, he had a man staying there with him once.

Mr. HUBERT. Colored man, I am talking about?

Mrs. PITTS. And--oh, Andrew? Well, I seen this Andrews down in the courthouse. He had called out there several times when I was there, and----

Mr. HUBERT. While you were working?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; this Andrews did, and he would ask for Ruby, and I would tell him, you know, and whenever Ruby come in you tell him that I am ready to go and he would just say, “Ain’t there some money laying around?” And I said, “No, he can pay me himself. No, I’d rather for him to put it out for me himself.”

Mr. HUBERT. You never met Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. PITTS. I seen him down at the----

Mr. HUBERT. Court?

Mrs. PITTS. Courthouse, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet him then?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before then?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Andrew Armstrong you were talking to on these previous occasions when you spoke to him on the telephone?

Mrs. PITTS. He told me who he was, Andrews.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize his voice?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir. I recognized his voice when I seen him up there and somebody called him Andrews, and then----

Mr. HUBERT. So the conversation you had prior to the time Mr. Ruby was arrested, those conversations with Andrew were all over the phone and you had never met him before?

Mrs. PITTS. See, I don’t have--I don’t have any conversations with Andrews since Mr. Ruby been in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that the conversations you had prior to the time Mr. Ruby went to jail, with Andrew, were all over the phone and it was at a time you had never met him before, is that right?

Mrs. PITTS. You mean when I was there working there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. PITTS. And he would call and something would be wrong at the club, and he’d call and say he needed Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. There?

Mrs. PITTS. That’s right, and I’d say, well, he’s not here.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never met Andrew at that time?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you recognized his voice and subsequently when you met him you recognized his voice, too?

Mrs. PITTS. As I--I asked him, I says--somebody called him, and Andrew--and I said, “Oh,”--I said, “You are the Andrew who used to call out at the house.” And he says, “Yes.” Thought I was, at first, Alice, somebody by the name of Alice, and I said, “Elnora.” Oh, yes, I see.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a girl by the name of Alice?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I didn’t know her.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she live in the apartment?

Mrs. PITTS. That, I don’t know if she--I guess she must have worked at the club. I think she worked down at the club. I never did see her.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a lady by the name of Alice Nichols?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I don’t know none of them people that worked down to his place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all right. Is there anything else that you know about?

Mrs. PITTS. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you know about that you haven’t stated to me?

Mrs. PITTS. No, I never did go to his club. I have never met none of those people there, and----

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you testified to in court that you haven’t said here?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; nothing. I told you the truth. Just testified the truth on how he talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony today is about the same as it was in court, is that right?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else concerning Mr. Ruby that would throw any light upon why he shot Oswald, if he did, or what his connection was with Oswald or with anybody else in any manner?

Mrs. PITTS. That is something I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not know?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir. I don’t even know this Oswald. I don’t know a thing in the world about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a boy by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I will show you some pictures of a man here taken in different poses. Have you ever seen that man?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t think I have, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was shown several--five pictures of Larry Crafard, also known as Curtis LaVern Crafard, and after examining them, she stated that she did not know this man.

Mrs. PITTS. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that you say you have never seen him at all?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t think I have. I don’t remember him. He had one young man that stayed there, kind of tall boy. I don’t know his name, but I ain’t seen him since Mr. Ruby been in jail down here, and he had moved over here on--I believe he was--said it was Freeman’s Apartment House, I believe that is where he lived.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he live there?

Mrs. PITTS. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did he live at the apartment?

Mrs. PITTS. The apartment--lived there with Ruby for one while.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, that was back in December. He was a tall, young looking boy.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not the man I just showed you the picture of?

Mrs. PITTS. He don’t look like him; no. I don’t know his name. I seen him there. I seen him one Sunday night. I seen him there and seen him there once before then, but he didn’t say too much when he come in that Sunday night. I was getting ready to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. You only saw him twice?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He was thin, and tall, you say?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, he wasn’t a real thin boy, but he was tall.

Mr. HUBERT. He was tall? How old was he?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t know just how old he was.

Mr. HUBERT. What made you think he was living there?

Mrs. PITTS. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. What made you think he was living there?

Mrs. PITTS. This boy said he was. He was working down there at the club. He told me he was working down there for his room out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this a Jewish boy?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t know. He come from somewhere here and he----

Mr. HUBERT. The Dallas area?

Mrs. PITTS. I guess and he didn’t have no job. He would work there to pay for his room, is what the boy told me, but I didn’t pay too much attention to him, because I was getting ready to go.

Mr. HUBERT. You only saw him on two occasions?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Ruby there when you saw him?

Mrs. PITTS. Mr. Ruby, come in when I was getting ready to leave, and this boy had some--and I think then he was telling the boy to get ready to go down to the club and I was getting ready to go out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed that as being in the summertime?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the boy left?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir; he did. I don’t know. I guess it was summertime. I don’t even know, but it was kind of hot weather. Might have been fall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he living there at the time Mr. Ruby got in the trouble?

Mrs. PITTS. Oh, goodness no.

Mr. HUBERT. He had left?

Mrs. PITTS. He had been gone a long time. That was in the wintertime. I don’t even know to tell you how much attention I paid to this boy. I didn’t even know him when I come out of the drug store and I said something to one of my middle granddaughters--got a paper and something, and boy turned around and said, “Hello there.” And I looked at him, and then he--“Don’t you remember me?” And I said, “Oh, yes, I believe I do now.” I says, “You was living with Ruby?” And he says, “Yes, I thought sure you’d remember me.” And I said, “Yes.”

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mrs. PITTS. That was when Ruby had been in the trouble, and he was in the street, and I come in the drug store, and he was stopping out there fixing to get into his car.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mrs. PITTS. Where was that?

Mr. HUBERT. The drug store.

Mrs. PITTS. Corner of Cornell and Ewing, there. The drug store where he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where that man works?

Mrs. PITTS. Work? No, no. I don’t know that. Mr. George Senator, now, would know him, and could tell you where he is. I don’t even remember the boy’s name, but I know--and into my work, and get through, and so, I never seen but twice.

Mr. HUBERT. The time you saw him at the drug store, though, he was getting into his automobile, was that after Mr. Ruby got into trouble?

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after, about?

Mrs. PITTS. I don’t know just how long.

Mr. HUBERT. Around Christmastime or before the trial?

Mrs. PITTS. Well, yes; it was before the trial, as I had never been down here. At least I hadn’t been down here, and I don’t know if he had been or not, but he did tell me the FBI men had been out talking to him?

Mr. HUBERT. After New Year’s that you saw him?

Mrs. PITTS. I just don’t know how--when it was. Might have been after New Year’s, but I know it hadn’t been down here, you know, at the trial. And he said they had been out to talk to him and found him and talked with him, so, I guess he told them, you know, where he was. Told me he was living over at the Freeman’s Apartments, and I don’t know if he is still over there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Once again, he doesn’t look like the man whose pictures I showed you?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff before? I am a member of the Commission’s staff, and have you been interviewed by me before this?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have never seen me before today, isn’t that right?

Mrs. PITTS. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then there was no interview between you and me before we began this deposition?

Mrs. PITTS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Elnora, thank you very much.

Mrs. PITTS. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF HAL PRIDDY, JR.

The testimony of Hal Priddy, Jr., was taken at 5:05 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Erway Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Hal Priddy [spelling] P-r-i-d-d-y, Jr. Mr. Priddy, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the Provision of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Priddy, as the former employee of the O’Neal Funeral Home.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain and evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Oswald.

I state to you now, Mr. Priddy, that the nature of the inquiry is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry. In particular the ambulance call at the O’Neal Funeral Home. Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the President’s Commission, addressed to the O’Neal Funeral Home, and asked them to produce certain documents and witnesses relevant to those documents and other matters, I take it that you have not, yourself, received a copy of that letter?

Mr. PRIDDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that under the rules of the Commission, any witnesses--any witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may also waive the 3-day notice if he sees fit, and I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRIDDY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. PRIDDY. Hal Arthur Priddy, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. PRIDDY. Twenty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. PRIDDY. 1857 Swan.

Mr. HUBERT. And your present occupation?

Mr. PRIDDY. Salesman for Shaw Jewelers.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on November 24, 1963, which was the Sunday after the assassination of President Kennedy, where were you employed?

Mr. PRIDDY. O’Neal Funeral Home.

Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity?

Mr. PRIDDY. I was the rider. I was riding with Mike, but I just relieved----

Mr. HUBERT. You were riding with Mike whom?

Mr. PRIDDY. Mike Hardin, and I just relieved the dispatcher, and he had taken my place.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the dispatcher?

Mr. PRIDDY. Wayne Wolfe.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that you were acting as dispatcher around, say 11 or 11:30?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At the O’Neal Funeral Home?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your duties as dispatcher?

Mr. PRIDDY. Well, we receive incoming calls from the police department and in turn dispatch them to the various funeral homes in their district, you know----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the O’Neal Funeral Home dispatches them, they receive calls from the police office and dispatch these calls to the various funeral----

Mr. PRIDDY. You see, we have a direct line from the police department. All they do is pick up a phone and it rings and we have a direct line to the Dudley Hughes Funeral Home and to the Camp Funeral Home, so that if the call is in their area that way the ambulance will get there quicker, you know, than O’Neal’s having to drive clear across town.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, O’Neal’s is sort of central for all ambulance calls----

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which come to you from the police and in turn are sent out by you to the appropriate funeral home operating an ambulance?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that you send the ambulance which is closest to where it is needed?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, do you recall having received a call from the police shortly after 11 o’clock on the 24th of November 1963?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; I was dispatching at the time, and one of the other funeral homes called and told me. I was waiting for the call when they told me that they were going to have to have an ambulance down at the----

Mr. HUBERT. You what? You were waiting for the call?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; you see. One of the funeral homes had, you know, it was on live TV, and they had seen it, and they picked up their direct line.

Mr. HUBERT. To you?

Mr. PRIDDY. And told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Told you what?

Mr. PRIDDY. That we were probably going to need an ambulance, that there was a disturbance down at city hall, so, I was waiting for the call when it came in.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a document marked for identification as Hardin Exhibit No. 5125, and ask if your handwriting appears on that document?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir. Right here at the top of it where the----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document, I wonder if you would put your signature along with mine and Mr. Hardin’s at the top of that?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that the handwriting at the top is in your hand?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I see the word “Lee” and then something scratched out. “Oswald. City jail to Parkland.” Why did you put that information there?

Mr. PRIDDY. Well, on any call we have to have the information, you see. I didn’t get that information until they called in to clear. I didn’t know--well, I did know, but normally I wouldn’t know who the patient is, and where they were taking them to, because he might just taken him to Baylor.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just put the number of the car that you----

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir. That is the first thing when you stamp it--you stamp it--then you put the number of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice the word “Mike,” on the left-hand top, is that in your handwriting, too?

Mr. PRIDDY. I don’t see it. Wait a minute. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Also notice a name on this document, Hardin Exhibit No. 5125, printed, telephone number, and then written No. 19.

Mr. PRIDDY. You mean this printed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that No. 19 there.

Mr. PRIDDY. I can’t tell.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, then, there is on Hardin Exhibit No. 5125, next to the printed item “time called,” a stamped time--and the time stated there is 11:21, November 24. Can you enlighten us as to the meaning of that entry?

Mr. PRIDDY. Whenever I receive a call from the ambulance--from the police department I stick this card in the machine, and it automatically stamps the date and the time that the----

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of machine is that?

Mr. PRIDDY. Just a time machine like a timeclock, except it is made for these.

Mr. HUBERT. You slip a card in there and it automatically stamps the time. You don’t have to hit it?

Mr. PRIDDY. No; you just shove it in there.

Mr. HUBERT. How accurate is that timeclock?

Mr. PRIDDY. Well, it is as accurate as the police department clock. I mean, they are synchronized.

Mr. HUBERT. How are they synchronized and--how often?

Mr. PRIDDY. Don’t know the mechanism. I know a man comes out and they are serviced regularly.

Mr. HUBERT. By the police department?

Mr. PRIDDY. No, by the manufacturer; and I don’t know who that is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how often they are serviced for correction and accuracy?

Mr. PRIDDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you all rely upon them?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; we have never had any occasion to question the----

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened about this particular call?

Mr. PRIDDY. Well, I got the call, and I stamped it, and then I was waiting.

Mr. HUBERT. Got the call from whom?

Mr. PRIDDY. From the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got it?

Mr. PRIDDY. Well, I checked my receipts, the other receipts to see who was clear, see, we have two ambulances there and it turned out that----

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. PRIDDY. That the ambulance that I dispatched, I don’t remember the name of it--the number, but the one that I dispatched was coming back from veterans hospital, and the--I knew that they were in--thoroughly close to downtown, because I just had had a call from them. They called when they got to the hospital and they were cleared, so, when the police department called I told them that the--there was an ambulance on the air and they dispatched it by----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them that they could reach that ambulance by putting the call?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; they just, you know--what number was that?

Mr. HUBERT. Call? You mean the car number?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. 605.

Mr. PRIDDY. 605.

Mr. HUBERT. That appears on 5125, and I should ask you, really, what that means?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; 605.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them to call car 605 because it was on the air, and that means he could be reached by calling him. Did you tell them that was the closest one you could find?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. That is the one you gave, in any case?

Mr. PRIDDY. No--yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the closest one you could find?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew that the people had previously, that is to say, Mike Hardin in car 605, had previously cleared from the veterans hospital stating that he was coming back to O’Neal, and you figured he was en route, and that it would--be quicker to reach him that way, is that correct?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; I had figured him about to the freeway.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice there is something here also in the--apparently timecard stamp code 6, 11:30, 11-24.

Mr. PRIDDY. That is when he arrived at the hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. How was that received?

Mr. PRIDDY. I monitor all of the police broadcasts while my ambulance is out.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you heard that?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you took the card and put it in the machine?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice some empty spaces in between, could you tell us now how that came about?

Mr. PRIDDY. At the time I was monitoring this the telephone was ringing, and people were running in and out, you know, confusion, and I didn’t hear when they left the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. So, therefore, you didn’t stamp it?

Mr. PRIDDY. I didn’t stamp it, that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The next thing you did here was the second code 6?

Mr. PRIDDY. This was the arrival at the hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. Arrival at the hospital?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, you put that stamp on it?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir; sometimes due to radio interference you are not able to make out who is calling. The police department may, or if they don’t tell, ask again.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case that second time----

Mr. PRIDDY. But, anytime you hear your ambulance you punch the code that he is on; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did hear the ambulance call in that he had arrived at----

Mr. PRIDDY. He called in the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. And you overheard that?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On your monitor?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And then took the card out and slipped it into the machine and it recorded 11:30?

Mr. PRIDDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose handwriting is on the lower left-hand of that----

Mr. PRIDDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Document, Hardin Exhibit No. 5126, next to “Oxygen,” sir?

Mr. PRIDDY. And I didn’t write the 12:30 here where he was clear at 12:30. But that probably doesn’t have any significance.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Mr. Priddy, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff other than myself?

Mr. PRIDDY. No, sir; no one.

Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as the interview with me is concerned, do you consider that everything discussed in the interview has been brought up in this deposition?

Mr. PRIDDY. That I can think of; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that was not brought up in this deposition that is material to the general inquiry we had?

Mr. PRIDDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir; I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF HUEY REEVES

The testimony of Huey Reeves was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon J. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Reeves, my name is Leon J. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, under rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution.

I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Reeves. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Reeves, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine all the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may have about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Reeves, I think you are appearing here today by virtue of a request made for you to appear in a letter sent to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Do you have that letter?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you please state for the record the date that the letter itself bears and the post date of the envelope, if you still have the envelope? First of all, what is the date of the letter?

Mr. REEVES. November 29--no--that’s not it. I don’t see the date on the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have the other one?

Mr. REEVES. No; I just brought one. It shows here March 23.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently the letter itself is undated.

Mr. REEVES. Yes; it is undated, but that is when it was--March 23, I believe, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the Post Office stamp?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; that’s the post stamp.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the stamp on the envelope itself and what does it show?

Mr. REEVES. It shows March 21.

Mr. HUBERT. From what place?

Mr. REEVES. Washington, D.C.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive the letter?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see--it’s dated about the 22d or 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. What day of this week was it?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see--just when I got that--Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday--I must have gotten it Monday, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. You got it Monday?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Of this week; is that correct?

Mr. REEVES. I believe that’s correct--Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday--it was either Monday or Tuesday--it could be Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got it on March 23 or 24, is that right?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, sir; I believe I got it the 23d because I begun to try to get in contact with you the next day and I thought about calling you just as quick as I could, just as quick as I got it, and I noticed on it that it weren’t until the 24th or 27th, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you got it, you think, last Monday, the 23d?

Mr. REEVES. Oh, no--the 23d--I don’t know when the 23d is, but I believe--this was the 23d--I believe that was it, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand up and raise your right hand so that I can administer the oath?

Mr. REEVES. [Complies.]

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that you will testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.

Mr. REEVES. Huey Moses Reeves.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. REEVES. Age--I was born April 7, 1912.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. REEVES. I live at 2903 Reynolds Avenue, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?

Mr. REEVES. Allright Auto Park. I am a night boss, night foreman for Allright Systems.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. REEVES. It’s on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the number?

Mr. REEVES. 1208, but I was at 1320, but they changed me to 1208.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same company?

Mr. REEVES. That’s the same company; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 23d, which was a Saturday, where were you working?

Mr. REEVES. Let me see; November 23d, I was working at 1320 Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Nichols Garage?

Mr. REEVES. Yes--Nichols Garage.

Mr. HUBERT. What job did you have over there?

Mr. REEVES. I was same--nightman working all night at Nichols Bros., the same as at the other place.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours?

Mr. REEVES. I worked from 7 to 7.

Mr. HUBERT. And on November 23, which was Saturday, you worked from 7 o’clock Saturday night until 7 o’clock Sunday morning?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a nightclub called the Carousel Club?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; it’s right next to where I work.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?

Mr. REEVES. Well, he parked in my place all the time. He was a regular parker, you see, and Nichols Bros. is right there and his club was next to my parking place. He would just drive in and park and go up in his place.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. REEVES. Ever since I have been working there--I don’t know just how long--probably a year and a half--I wouldn’t say--I don’t know just how long--probably a year and a half--I wouldn’t say for sure--but to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him every day?

Mr. REEVES. Every night.

Mr. HUBERT. Every night?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett--they call her Little Lynn?

Mr. REEVES. Is she a young girl?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know her age--she is--I would suppose a young girl.

Mr. REEVES. There’s so many girls--now, if she works up there for Jack Ruby, I know them when I see them, but their names, it seems to me like that little Bennett girl may have been the one that fainted one night.

Mr. HUBERT. Down in Ruby’s place?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; in our lobby room. She came out of Jack Ruby’s place.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. REEVES. It was before Jack Ruby done that--before.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but how long before?

Mr. REEVES. Oh, it was probably a month or two--I wouldn’t know for sure, because I wasn’t keeping up with the dates, you know. I guess they told me her name--she’s from Fort Worth, I believe. There are so many girls work up there for him. A lot of them park down in the place there but I just remember them--the face, but not the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember getting a phone call from Jack Ruby on the night of Saturday, November 23?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, sir; I guess it’s that same girl--he called me to give $5 to her, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it; do you remember?

Mr. REEVES. Probably 9 o’clock, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us exactly what happened about that?

Mr. REEVES. Well, she called Jack over the phone and wanted some money and Jack said, “Well, I can’t come down right now.”

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know what he said?

Mr. REEVES. Well, that’s what he told me to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to do that? He told you to do that?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Just tell us what she said and what you could hear her say over the phone?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I don’t remember her saying anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she call from your place?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, well, you see my office phone is in this office and she was in the next phone--the pay phone.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. REEVES. And then--let me see, now, I believe she called Jack to borrow some money and then Jack called me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how do you know that she called him to borrow some money. Did she tell you so or did you overhear this?

Mr. REEVES. He talked to me.

Mr. HUBERT. When she was making the call on the telephone, you didn’t know who she was calling?

Mr. REEVES. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do know she made a phone call?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And after the phone call did she tell you anything?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; she didn’t say anything--Jack told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, she didn’t say anything to you after she made the phone call?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know who she was calling?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she with anybody?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t remember whether her husband was with her or not. Let’s see, I didn’t think about having to go through this--I don’t just remember whether her husband--it seems to me like her husband was with her.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a man with her?

Mr. REEVES. There was a man with her, and I think it was her husband.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to her?

Mr. REEVES. No; I wasn’t introduced to her--I seen the boy claiming to be her husband--he’s parked in there when she worked up there--he would get out of the car, you know, never did ask anybody their names. I just run the parking lot. I think her husband’s name is Bruce. I’ve heard some of them call him Bruce.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what his last name is?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. REEVES. Jack told me to let her have $5.

Mr. HUBERT. You said Jack told you that?

Mr. REEVES. He said this--correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she come over into your office?

Mr. REEVES. She was already on the phone, I believe, or he may have called me--I don’t remember whether I called or she had phoned, and anyway he said to let her have $5, and now, I think, he said he would bring me down the money and make her sign a receipt, which I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether or not you just got on the same phone she was talking on or whether Ruby called you separately; is that right?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t remember--it seems to me like he called me separately on my phone. You see, this is a little distance--he would call me after he would get home and tell me to go see if he locked his door in the club--he thought he might have left it open.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say when he called again?

Mr. REEVES. To take this $5 and let the girl--I can’t think of her name--but let the girl have the $5 and have the girl sign a receipt and I did, and he came and gave me the $5 and he picked up the receipt.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know you were talking to Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. Yes--well, I knew his voice.

Mr. HUBERT. You have talked to him on the phone?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; lots of time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you thought it was Jack Ruby, now, did he tell you--he said he was Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no doubt you were speaking to Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; no doubt but what it was him at all--no.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the extent of your conversation?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, just the $5--let her have $5 because he wasn’t ready to come down, and I let her have the $5 and made her sign her name, just like he said, and he got in a little bit later and gave me $5 and took the receipt.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a receipt was it?

Mr. REEVES. Just a little piece of paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you date it?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you put a time stamp on it or not?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t believe I did--I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a timeclock there?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You just slip in a piece of paper and it automatically notes the time of day?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, just a piece of paper you put in there, and it stamps the time on it, but I don’t remember whether I did it or not on this--it was a piece of paper.

Mr. HUBERT. She signed it?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, she signed her name.

Mr. HUBERT. And, this was the receipt--do you remember what it said?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I believe I just said “Received $5--by Jack Ruby” or “Received $5” and let her put her name--I don’t remember whether I put Jack Ruby’s name upon that or not.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the record of it?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, that’s the record.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. REEVES. It was probably about 9 or 9:30--I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said a moment ago that sometime after that Ruby came in?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, he came in--it was probably 30 minutes or an hour or something like that; I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, tell us what happened then?

Mr. REEVES. Well, he just came in and says, “Here’s your $5,” and he never did anything about the receipt and I handed him the receipt, just like I said.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do with the receipt?

Mr. REEVES. I imagine he put it in his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him put it in his pocket?

Mr. REEVES. No, I didn’t see him--I wasn’t paying any attention.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his condition when he came in that night?

Mr. REEVES. Not paying no attention to Jack Ruby--I didn’t pay him attention--no attention to him, walking around in my place or coming into my office then--I was busy and didn’t pay no attention to him. You know, he’s in there all the time parking his car, and when he come out of his club lots of times he would walk around and into the office and talk to them that way, and he would say a few words, and if he went out for sandwiches he would always ask us if we needed any sandwiches or drinks or anything like that. He was an awful nice fellow--awful nice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he seemed to be crying or upset about anything that night?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I didn’t--I didn’t pay any attention to him, but he seemed like--too, you see, I was in the office now, and the guy’s lounge was back in here.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose lounge--what lounge?

Mr. REEVES. The lounge in the office, and then the Saturday morning, it seemed like, too, he would go back in the waiting room and prance--walk around more than usual, but he always did walk around--he had hard heels on, and you could hear him walking when he would come out of his club. I would be sitting in the office, maybe figuring up my back receipts, and I would hear him tapping those heels and I would say, “It’s Jack Ruby, because he is coming out of his club.”

Mr. HUBERT. You say this night he was walking a little bit more than usual?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; it seemed like he was a little bit more restless.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I didn’t pay any attention--I never thought much about it, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell whether he was crying?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I really didn’t pay any attention to him.

Mr. HUBERT. The only thing you noticed about his general conduct that night that was different from other nights was that he seemed to be walking around a little bit more?

Mr. REEVES. It seemed like he was a little bit more restless or something, and I believe that night, too, he had his club closed. I believe that sign--I believe he had a sign, if I remember, I really wasn’t interested in his club. I had a pretty good job working for Allright--it’s a pretty busy place, but it seemed to me like he had it closed. I believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Ruby earlier that day or seen him?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, I came to work at 7; it seemed to me like that Ruby was there when I got there. It seemed like he drove up and then he left and then came back, it seemed like, and that’s when he must have went home and this girl called him and then he was at home and he wasn’t ready yet. It seemed like he told me he was waiting on a call or something from somebody or something and he told the girl he wasn’t ready to come down, or he told me he wasn’t ready to give her the $5, you see, and he told me to give her the $5 and to make out a receipt.

Mr. HUBERT. And have you to give it to her?

Mr. REEVES. I had given her the $5 for him and I knew it was good because he always paid me back if he owed me any parking--he always paid it.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever paid any employees money like that?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; that there was the only one.

Mr. HUBERT. While you were on the phone with him, did he tell you that he was at home?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, I don’t believe he said where he was. He just said he had an appointment or had a caller.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t call him?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Either he called you or you got on the phone?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When the girl had been talking to him?

Mr. REEVES. Or he called me, you know, I don’t remember just exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are certain he didn’t tell you he was at home?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; he didn’t say where he was.

Mr. HUBERT. You did get the impression that he was?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; that’s right, just my impression he was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what that impression is based on?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it on anything he said?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; he didn’t say anything about where he was.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did say he couldn’t come because he was waiting for a call?

Mr. REEVES. He was either waiting for a call or wasn’t ready or something to come down, I believe is what he said.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he leave, you say, just about the time you came on?

Mr. REEVES. I believe he went away about the time I came to work, I believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him when he left, then?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; you see his car is parked there all the time, right in front or his side by his club, that was in parking.

Mr. HUBERT. So, about 7 or shortly thereafter he left the garage?

Mr. REEVES. I sort of believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. And the next time you saw him was when he came back in just about a half hour or so after you gave the $5 to this girl?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; and he brought my $5 back.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he left after that?

Mr. REEVES. It seems to me he fooled around in the lobby, in the back waiting room there a while and pranced around or walked around and drove off--where he went from there, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him any more that day?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, it seems to me he came back down there that night and fooled around the lobby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he park his car?

Mr. REEVES. You see, he always parked his own car--we didn’t park his.

Mr. HUBERT. He had a special spot there?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; he had a special spot there. We could move it up and down, because he would leave his key, and we could move it up and down as we had to move it in parking, but it seemed to me like he left again to go--he was going home, and I told Mack, the colored man that worked for me, I said, “That looked like Jack Ruby’s car that went up the street.” You see, I sit on Commerce Street and I can tell every car that passed if I just wanted to look out, and it seemed to me, I told Mack that that looked like Jack Ruby’s car that went back up the street, up Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t have to check in with you to get his car out?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; he was a monthly parker, he paid by the month. When his car was parked there, nobody fooled with it, because he was a monthly parker. You see, the drive came in this way [indicating] for all the ticket cars, and over here on the side, was his parking place. Of course, we might park two or three in front of his, but sometimes we would move his if a boy had to sweep or something, we would have to move his car up and down and back and forth.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about, that you saw him leave again and made a comment to that effect to the colored boy?

Mr. REEVES. It seems to me like when he left he said, “I’m going home,” and I told Mack, it looked to me Jack Ruby was going back up the street and he said he was going home when he left, and, told me earlier, “Boy, I’m going home.”

Mr. HUBERT. You say usually he went out to his room in Oak Cliff?

Mr. REEVES. And I told the boys, “That looked like Jack Ruby’s car that went back up the street.” That might not have been him--there’s lots of cars that looks like that, but that’s what I told Mack Jones, the colored man there.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. REEVES. It was probably 9:30 or 10 or maybe 10 or over, I wouldn’t say for sure, but I would just sort of estimate the time.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he had given you the $5 back?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he didn’t stay in the club very long?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t remember him ever going up in the club that night. I don’t think he even went up in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he just came and gave you the $5, picked up the receipt and left pretty quick?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; it seemed to me like he came back again and fooled around in the lobby lots--he would come back and fool around at the garage and my colored man was a good friend of his and he always talked a lot to Jack Ruby--he talked to him and I was a good friend to him, too, on account of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him any more than that?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; that’s the last time I have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. The last time you have seen him?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him Sunday morning before you went off duty, did you?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I sure didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him earlier on Saturday, the day after the President was shot?

Mr. REEVES. Saturday after the President was shot?

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you were off on Saturday morning until 7 that night?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; I am off in the daytime--I’m just there at night--I couldn’t tell you whether I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on Friday night during your shift, which ran from 7, November 22, Friday night, to 7 o’clock Saturday morning, November 22–23, 1963?

Mr. REEVES. I can’t recall that in there so much. I wouldn’t want to say for sure whether I seen him or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his making any comment to you on--about the shooting of the President?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Andy Armstrong?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. REEVES. He is a colored man that worked for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had he been there, do you know?

Mr. REEVES. I think he was there--I think when he came there--it was probably a year and a half or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you talked to him since Ruby was arrested on November 24?

Mr. REEVES. I probably have. He worked, you know, running the club, but I never did have anything to do with him. You see, I was always so busy.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know he was running the club?

Mr. REEVES. Well, he worked up in the club, I would see him up in the club and the girls all parked right down there with me, and he worked up in the club. They claimed he was sort of the guy that run it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean after Ruby was arrested or before?

Mr. REEVES. After.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did talk to the man about the shooting on the 22d?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; none.

Mr. HUBERT. Andy Armstrong?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. REEVES. I have known him when I seen him; he parked in there, too, and would go to Jack Ruby’s place.

Mr. HUBERT. How often would he go, do you know?

Mr. REEVES. Sometimes he would come in there, say two or three times a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he park by the month?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; a ticket on the car.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long would he stay?

Mr. REEVES. Sometimes he would come and stay 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. That was two or three times a week?

Mr. REEVES. Something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to him since November 24?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; the only thing is, when he pays the ticket, I get his car for him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have never talked to him about Ruby since November 24?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t believe he ever mentioned to me about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; I have seen that man there, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he park his car in there?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; he has parked in there, too; he worked for Jack some.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on a monthly basis?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; a ticket car.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe him for us?

Mr. REEVES. George?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. REEVES. Well, he’s sort of a heavy set--a pretty big heavy set man, I guess, about 5 feet 8 inches tall, or something like that, and weighs probably 175 to 180 pounds, a pretty good size man.

Mr. HUBERT. Bald headed, or slightly bald?

Mr. REEVES. I believe he’s got pretty good hair on his head.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice any limp on him?

Mr. REEVES. Limp?

Mr. HUBERT. Limp--yes.

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ralph Paul have a limp?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t believe he did. I don’t believe he limped--no, sir; not as I know of. Well, Paul broke his foot after all that happened, but you know, he went around in a cast on his foot with crutches for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was that?

Mr. REEVES. That’s since, you know, all that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after the 24th?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; he broke his foot; I don’t know how it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to George Senator about Ruby since the 24th of November?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t believe he’s been in my place since then. I don’t believe he has.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t believe I know him--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I will show you some pictures of a man, there are several of them there in different poses, and I would like for you to look at them.

Mr. REEVES. [Examining pictures referred to.] Yes, I have seen this guy there at Jack’s place. He worked for Jack some.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is examining five photographs of different poses.

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, I believe this is the same guy that worked--let’s see some of these--I don’t know for sure, but I believe it is the same one, too, I believe. All of these look like the same man to me, do they to you?

Mr. HUBERT. They are all five different poses.

Mr. REEVES. They look like the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. These are all five different poses of Curtis Laverne Crafard, taken on November 28, 1963, by the FBI and forwarded recently to the Commission.

Mr. REEVES. He stayed up there with Jack Ruby some.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you identified this man as a man you know?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I don’t exactly know him--he worked for Jack Ruby and he would come down to the window and chat with me--right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his name?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his full name?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t ever remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he work for Jack?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I would see him up there and when Jack would leave, he would leave him in his place to guard it, guard his place.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I have seen him leave with Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul and go off with them in the car, you know, at night, after they closed the place up. I think they called it going to eat or something. I have seen him leave with them two or three times in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say he slept there?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; he stayed in the place.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I would see him go close the door and go up in there and go over to the Eatwell Cafe and hang around maybe an hour or so and go up there and lock the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you figure he was staying there?

Mr. REEVES. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that?

Mr. REEVES. It looked like he was working for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, that he was living upstairs--yes, staying there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay up in there?

Mr. REEVES. It seemed to me he stayed there a couple of weeks or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?

Mr. REEVES. It seems to me he disappeared--well, he disappeared. I never did know any more of him--I don’t know whether Jack fired him or he just walked off. You know how it is around one of them garages--I just seen him there and see people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him during your night shift from 7 o’clock on Friday, November 22, that’s the date the President was shot, until the end of your shift at 7 o’clock the next morning?

Mr. REEVES. November 23d? Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the man whose picture you just looked at.

Mr. REEVES. I don’t believe I did--I don’t believe I seen him around there during that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him and Ruby in the early hours of the 23d, Saturday, say about 3 or 5 o’clock in the morning?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t believe I did--no, sir. I don’t think I seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby that morning, I’m talking about the shift that runs from 7 o’clock on Friday to 7 o’clock Saturday morning?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see--what date was that?

Mr. HUBERT. It would have been the 22d and the 23d, that was the night of and the morning after the President was shot.

Mr. REEVES. No, sir. Let’s see, I may have seen Jack--I don’t remember seeing this boy. I may have seen Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack parking his car there early Saturday morning the 23d?

Mr. REEVES. Saturday morning the 23d?

Mr. HUBERT. Before you got off, maybe 2 or 3 hours before you got off?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I don’t think so. He never did come in that early--before I got off--I don’t think so. Most of the time he came in would be, I think, about 8 o’clock at night and maybe when he closed up was 1 or 1:30 and he would maybe go off and eat and he might run back to see if he locked his door. Sometimes he would call me and have me to hold the phone while I ran in there to see if his door was locked, and I would come back and tell him his door was locked.

Mr. HUBERT. You say it just looked like Larry had taken off?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I seen him going in and out of the place there all of the time--I just missed him. I was not trying to keep up with him--I just missed him. I was not trying to keep up with him, but I just missed him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you missed him?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody tell you he had gone?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; didn’t nobody tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the last time you saw him?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I couldn’t say for sure the last time I seen him. I think he stayed there a week or 2--I don’t remember--it might be 3 weeks--I don’t remember. Sometimes he would come in, he was a pretty friendly boy, and he would come there and wave at me and I am pretty friendly too and I would see him when he was working up there for Jack Ruby and maybe I would wave to him when he came out and sometimes he would come over there and talk to me at the ticket window while I was cashing tickets and chat with him a few times, but I don’t remember him ever telling me his name or anything, but he was a peculiar acting kind of a boy.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way?

Mr. REEVES. The way he would sort of bat his eyes like that when he would talk and get around real fast when he would take off up the street. He would walk real fast, you know, and all at once he would just take off and go through the Adolphus Hotel lobby, is what I mean. He claimed he had a girl friend over there--I don’t know who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. REEVES. Over there at the Eatwell Cafe--some girl was meeting him over there.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you that?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, he said, “I’ve got to go, I’ve got to meet a girl over at the Eatwell.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him with a girl?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; I never seen him with a girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the Eatwell place?

Mr. REEVES. It’s on Main Street, right in front of Nichols Brothers. You go through the lobby of the hotel--I call it a lobby, I always say lobby, but it is just a car drive, and you run into Main Street and it is up two or three doors, and it’s the Eatwell Cafe. It stays open all night.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s on Main Street?

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that the girl worked there, or that he was just meeting her there?

Mr. REEVES. He said he was going to meet her. I don’t know whether she worked there or was just meeting him there, I just don’t know. He said, “I’ve got to go and meet her.” I would talk to him a few times--he was friendly--he would say, “I’ve got to go and meet a girl.” Whether he has one--he seemed to be sort of a windy guy in talking.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen once or more than once?

Mr. REEVES. I believe once or twice--I would say probably a couple of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody tell you he just took off and left?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir; nobody didn’t say anything. I just seen him working, because Jack had a lot of boys like that working for him. He had one boy that worked before this time for him, a Jewish-looking boy, a stocky-looking boy. The fact of the business is, Jack and him had a little trouble, and when they were having trouble up in the place, they came down to where I could see him out in front.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was having trouble?

Mr. REEVES. This boy--I don’t know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the Jewish-looking boy?

Mr. REEVES. He was a Jewish looking--little short type guy, and Jack--they was having trouble and Jack went up in the club and he came down and I heard the boy say, “I’m going to go get a gun and kill Jack Ruby,” and when Jack come back down, I told Jack, I said, “Go back there and hide somewhere, he’s got a gun and he’s going to kill you,” and Jack raised the turtle shell of his car there in the parking lot and got his gun out and he went up to that whisky store and hit him across the head with it.

Mr. HUBERT. What whisky store?

Mr. REEVES. Right there up at the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him do it yourself?

Mr. REEVES. No; I stayed out at the garage, but I heard the boy say, “I’m going to get a gun and kill Jack Ruby,” and he said it real down low, and when Jack came down, I didn’t want Jack to get killed, and I said, “Go back there and hide. That boy said he was going to kill you.” Instead of hiding like I told Jack, Jack reached back up in his car and got his six-shooter out and went up to this whisky store and tapped him with his gun like that [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. REEVES. It was when he went up to the store and I seen the big guy come out across there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. REEVES. It has been probably 5 or 6 months--I wouldn’t say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police come?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody arrest Jack Ruby?

Mr. REEVES. He didn’t bother Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man is this boy--this Jewish boy Jack was supposed to have hit?

Mr. REEVES. He looked like 30 years old or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the liquor store?

Mr. REEVES. It’s right up there on the corner. I believe I may have the address here in my pocket--it’s the first one on the corner--Segal’s--I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What corner is it on?

Mr. REEVES. It’s on the corner of Akard and Commerce--that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. What time of night did this happen?

Mr. REEVES. It was probably--I don’t remember just exactly, probably about 10:30, 9:30 or 10:30, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack Ruby come back right away after that?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, he came back to his place, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Right away?

Mr. REEVES. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t too long?

Mr. REEVES. No, it wasn’t too long.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he arrested?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the other man arrested?

Mr. REEVES. I don’t think they arrested him neither. I think they carried him to the hospital in an ambulance.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the ambulance?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, I heard the ambulance come after him and after he did that, he come back and worked for Jack. Jack buddied up with him again, Jack was a good-hearted kind of a fellow, and he came back and worked for him some more, and went away. I never did learn his name, but some of them said he lived in Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was about 6 months ago from now?

Mr. REEVES. Yes, I wouldn’t say for sure--it’s either--might have been 3 or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we are now in March, you know.

Mr. REEVES. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, if you say 6 months----

Mr. REEVES. It seems to me like it might have been over 4 months--4 or 5 months--I don’t know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it was in October or November of 1963?

Mr. REEVES. Let’s see, it must have been in about September.

Mr. HUBERT. September 1963?

Mr. REEVES. I wouldn’t say for sure now, but it was, all I know is I just remember being--it scared me, you know. I was scared, you know, I didn’t want Jack--some kind of unknown guy to come along and kill him, a guy just working for him, and I heard him say it, and I told Jack. What I wanted Jack to do was go back there and hide until the boy got in a good humor, you see.

Jack Ruby--seemed--he was always a nice fellow to me and I wasn’t thinking about him being rough enough to do something like that. I really wasn’t, because I never thought no more about Jack Ruby coming around in the garage, coming in my office around there talking to me--he came around a lot of times late at night. He maybe would stop by and say a few words and he treated me just like a baby. He would bring me sandwiches and things like that and I figured he was just a nice fellow, you know, is all I could figure out.

Now, he had a good many--I don’t remember--it seems to me like he had several more. If there was anybody that came into town that was broke and Jack knew it, he would take them in and get them some clothes and feed them and give them some money.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know all that?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I would see him doing it. Whether the guy was all right, I don’t know. They was strangers to me. I was working for the Allright Co., worked 12 hours a night and have been for 2 or 3 years and I was just seeing things--seeing people doing it and I thought he was running a legitimate place. I knew I was running a perfect place, the parking system, and we’ve got lots of customers, and you know, people parking in our place, going up to his club, parking in there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Reeves, is there anything else you know about this--any other facts that might throw some light on the assassination of President Kennedy or the shooting of Lee Oswald?

Mr. REEVES. Nothing that I know of, because I didn’t know Oswald. If I ever seen him, I don’t remember. The only thing, after I seen his picture in the newspapers and come out on the television with the pictures and all, it seemed like his face got familiar, but I never seen him before that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you have seen pictures of Oswald in the paper and all that?

Mr. REEVES. That’s right, and on television.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you formed the impression that maybe you had seen him before?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir--well, it does seem like, you know, he got familiar as I seen him on television and in the paper, but as far as seeing him before, I mean before that happened, I don’t think I ever did see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he has any resemblance, does he look like this man Larry Crafard, this man I just showed you a picture of?

Mr. REEVES. Well, I don’t think he favors him any--seeing him in the pictures, but I wouldn’t think so--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any members of the Commission staff?

Mr. REEVES. By an FBI man.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you haven’t been interviewed by me?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Before this deposition this morning?

Mr. REEVES. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Reeves.

Mr. REEVES. I’m sure glad to tell facts if I knew anything, I would just be glad to help, because I would be glad to help, because President Kennedy was one of my best friends. I liked him better than any man on earth--I sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Reeves, for coming.

Mr. REEVES. Sure glad to.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, that’s all.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN E. RICHEY

The testimony of Warren E. Richey was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 15, 1964, at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have to read some formalities here. My name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of President Johnson’s Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Richey.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Richey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and particularly whether a man known as Jack Ruby was seen by you near the Dallas Police Department on November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Richey, I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, for the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?

Mr. RICHEY. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you please be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RICHEY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name.

Mr. RICHEY. Warren E. Richey.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. RICHEY. 40.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. RICHEY. 1600 Grantland Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. RICHEY. TV engineer.

Mr. HUBERT. What station?

Mr. RICHEY. WBAP-TV.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. RICHEY. Thirteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the function in general of a TV engineer?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, it is all phases of operation of TV equipment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty with the remote truck of WBAP-TV in Dallas on November 23 and 24?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the truck parked?

Mr. RICHEY. It was parked on Commerce Street facing east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, facing what street? Pearl or North Express?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t know really. It was on the left-hand side of the street facing east, right in front of the city hall, or whatever it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Harwood Street is?

Mr. RICHEY. Harwood? No, sir; I am not very familiar with the streets.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away from the corner was the back of your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I would say 40 or 50 feet, approximately. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How much room was there between the front of the truck and the street curbing forming part of the entrance or exit from the police department into Commerce Street?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, 15 or 20 feet, I imagine. It wasn’t too far.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d of November? That is to say, Saturday, November 23, 1963?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the position of the truck that you have just described different on the 24th than that which you have described?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; it was moved in and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Stayed there both days?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What hours were you on duty on the 23d? That is to say, Saturday?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t remember exactly what time we got over there. I think we had a 6 o’clock call from here, from Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Six in the morning?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes. And I think we would have pictures by 8 o’clock, so I would say we were there somewhere around 6:30, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. RICHEY. It was till late that night. I am not sure of the time. I believe it was around 8 or 9 o’clock, that night, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. When you went home, you left the equipment where it was?

Mr. RICHEY. That was on Saturday; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go back to work on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. Sunday, I think I’m mixed up here. Sunday was the morning we had a 6 o’clock call. Saturday morning is the day we moved in early. We had a 1 o’clock call.

Mr. HUBERT. One o’clock?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you worked from 1 in the morning until about 8 Saturday night?

Mr. RICHEY. It was rather not that Saturday night. We got back about 6:30 on Sunday morning. Saturday night is the night we stayed late.

Mr. HUBERT. Now prior to the 23d, or the 24th, did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. No; I never heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Never seen him before?

Mr. RICHEY. Never heard of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby or a man that you have now come to believe was Jack Ruby or know was Jack Ruby on the 23d or the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. Not on the 23d, but on the 24th, that would be Sunday, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us about that.

Mr. RICHEY. Well, the man that I think was him and I am positive, pretty sure in my own mind it was, he was just out on the street alongside the truck in front of the building, the city court building.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the street in the sense that the place where the automobiles were, or on the sidewalk alongside the building? On the left side of the truck then?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Between the left side of the truck and the building?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you?

Mr. RICHEY. I was on top of the truck with a camera.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. RICHEY. Well, the time that I saw him was, I would say, in the neighborhood of 8 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way you fix the time?

Mr. RICHEY. Not definitely, because we were busy lining up cameras, and I didn’t really pay much attention to the time, but I would say it was somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened between the two of you?

Mr. RICHEY. Nothing, as far as I was concerned. I just saw him out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I never did hear him say anything, because it was cold and I had a coat pulled up over my ears.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. RICHEY. He had on a sort of grayish topcoat and sort of a gray-looking hat, and he didn’t look like, you know, he didn’t look very neatly dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat?

Mr. RICHEY. Topcoat; overcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was about 8 o’clock, in the morning?

Mr. RICHEY. The first time I saw him was somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 o’clock. I am not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stood around there?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him again sometime, I would say, around 10 or a little before 10, and he was down past the ramp this time that goes into the building--basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean he was down past in the sense that he had progressed ahead of the front of your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; he was down.

Mr. HUBERT. The Commerce Street entrance was between your truck and him?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that drew your attention to him then?

Mr. RICHEY. No; not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed in the same way?

Mr. RICHEY. At this time he was still dressed the same way. That was the last time I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Those two occasions were roughly separated by about 2 hours, you think?

Mr. RICHEY. Somewhere around there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. No; I had no idea. I just thought he was a newsman, because there were several out there walking around, and they moved the people across the street, and he was one of the few that was left.

This person was one of the few that was left out there, and that is one reason I thought he was a newsman, because they weren’t bothering the newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talk to any of the police that were stationed along there?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see him talk to anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that the second time was about 10 o’clock?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way in which you fix that time?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not really. Well, it was about the time that we thought they were to bring Oswald out. I think they told us it would be about 10 o’clock. It was in that time period that we were sort of looking for them to bring him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Judging from the time that Oswald was actually shot or measuring from that time backward, could you tell us how long it was from the time Oswald was shot, backward until you saw Ruby; or to put it another way, how much time elapsed from the last time you saw Ruby until Oswald was shot?

Mr. RICHEY. It was an hour or better.

Mr. HUBERT. Now can you tell us when was the very first time you associated that man that you have just described as having seen at 8 o’clock and again at 10, or a little better, with Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. It was that night when I saw the rerun of the tape that was made. And when I saw him, it looked like the same man that was dressed differently, to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did the reruns show his face?

Mr. RICHEY. Not too good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any mug shots?

Mr. RICHEY. I saw still shots.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you see those?

Mr. RICHEY. The next day, I believe; whenever the papers came out. It was the pictures in the Dallas Herald, I believe, the big full-page picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ira N. Walker?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on duty on the same truck with you that day?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think Mr.----

Mr. RICHEY. Johnny Smith.

Mr. HUBERT. Johnny Smith was too?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being in the company of them and seeing mug shots relatively shortly after the shooting of Oswald on TV?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I didn’t see those. They were in the truck where they could see the pictures, but I was out on top of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that they had seen the Ruby mug shots and had associated them with the man that they had seen?

Mr. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t believe.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw the rerun, you independently reached the opinion that it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not suggested to you by the fact that Walker and Smith had seen mug shots right after the shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that they had seen the shots?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now have you seen Jack Ruby since?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in person; no, sir. I have seen pictures, newsreels, but I haven’t seen him actually.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of him in the newspapers?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Newsreel films?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion now as to whether or not the man that you have described that you saw twice on November 24, at about 8 and then again about 10 on Commerce Street is or is not the man that you now know from having seen pictures and so forth, as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I still believe that it is the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by the State to testify in the case?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; they came and talked to Johnny and Walker and myself but they never did call me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion as to your identification of the man on the street and Jack Ruby as being the same man relative to your identification of him on the reruns as opposed to your identification of him from the still photos and other pictures that you have seen of him thereafter?

What I am trying to get at is, which one of the subsequent views you had of Jack Ruby is stronger in your mind with reference to identifying the man that you saw in the street?

Mr. RICHEY. The still pictures, except for the difference in clothes. The clothes in the still pictures look different from the ones that this person had on that I saw, but I would say the still pictures looked more like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Nevertheless, it is a fact, that when you saw the reruns on the night of the 24th, at that time you had an impression that it was the same man?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a spontaneous thing?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; when I saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say anything to anybody?

Mr. RICHEY. My wife, I believe, because we were watching the news.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t report it?

Mr. RICHEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Richey, I have in hand here a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Haley and Madland on December 4, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: “Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5316, deposition of Warren E. Richey,” and I have signed my name on it.

I would like you to read the statement first, sir.

Mr. RICHEY. [Reads statement.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, sir, you have read this document that I have identified as Exhibit 5316, and I will ask you if it substantially represents the truth as to the interview between you and the Federal agents, or if you have any deletions, corrections, or any amendments to make about it?

Mr. RICHEY. I would say it was all approximately right.

Mr. HUBERT. I invite your attention to the fact that this Exhibit 5316, states that the time----

Mr. RICHEY. The time is different on there, but I tell you there has been a lot happened since then that I couldn’t be too exact on the time, really, because this was just, I don’t know, wasn’t too long after this all happened.

Mr. HUBERT. For example, this statement mentions that you saw him about 9 o’clock and apparently doesn’t cover what you testified to. That is to say, that you really saw him twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I actually didn’t see him twice. This was a period of time really from approximately 8 or somewhere in there up until about 10 o’clock. He wasn’t there early. That wasn’t what I meant.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get that straight. You saw him only once; is that correct? Or twice?

Mr. RICHEY. Well, I saw him--I don’t know how to put it. It was a period of time I saw him, between this time, probably several times walked down the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked actually between the truck and the sidewalk side of the building?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at one time you have a mental impression of having seen him beyond the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; from the corner. I don’t even remember what street. It runs in front of the court building back of the truck. But he was within that area from that street up beyond the ramp. But this last time I saw him was at the ramp. But he was in between there several times that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 8?

Mr. RICHEY. And 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. But you think that the very last time that you saw him----

Mr. RICHEY. Was around 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. What fixes 10 in your mind?

Mr. RICHEY. Like I say, it was about the time they were expecting them to bring Oswald down in the building. That was when the chief of police told us they would be bringing him out, and we were looking for him, because I was up there on a camera, with a camera on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you gotten any kind of alert standby?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir. There was no alert of any kind. It was just the time that they had given us the night before, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you say that your recollection is that the last time you saw him, which was when you saw him beyond the Commerce Street ramp, was approximately an hour or a little better from the actual shooting?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the last time you remember seeing him?

Mr. RICHEY. That was the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem at that time to be walking away from your truck?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; he was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. He was just standing?

Mr. RICHEY. He was standing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police near him?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not near him. They had one policeman out on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you saw him, it was after all the crowd had been moved over?

Mr. RICHEY. They were across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. From the side of the street where your truck was, to the opposite side of Commerce Street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many other people like this man walking around in that area?

Mr. RICHEY. There was just occasionally newsmen, because they were congregating in the basement and they would come by.

Mr. HUBERT. But this man whom you have identified as Jack Ruby; did he have any kind of paper or press badge which you observed in the nature of a press badge?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; not that I saw, because there was a lot of newsmen that didn’t have passes. Some of our crew didn’t even have passes, WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the armored truck pulled in there?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the last time you saw the man you have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. I believe that was the--I believe the armored truck pulled in after I saw him the last time, because there was one pulled in and backed in, and the other one parked on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that the last time you saw Ruby was before?

Mr. RICHEY. Before any of that happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Before any of that happened.

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; Mr. Richey, have you been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say in any way?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t know of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you really didn’t hear Ruby say anything?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that this statement which has been identified as 5316--let me ask you: You were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; that was 2 or 3 days, I believe, after.

Mr. HUBERT. You were interviewed at the same time as Mr. Walker and Mr. Smith?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; and there were some others.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an individual interview?

Mr. RICHEY. Not in our case. We were all together in the studio of WBAP.

Mr. HUBERT. You weren’t taken aside separately and individually?

Mr. RICHEY. Not when the FBI talked to us.

Mr. HUBERT. Each of you gave your story and the FBI agents made notes?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to check the notes or any draft?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I have never heard or seen them since.

Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty with the truck during the day of Saturday, November 23?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that the man you saw and identified as Jack Ruby would have been seen by you on the 23d rather than the 24th?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; I don’t recall seeing anyone that even looked like him on the 23d. That one morning is the only morning that I recall seeing anyone that even looked like him.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 24th, I think you testified the crowd had been moved over on the other side of the street?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had that been done on the 23d?

Mr. RICHEY. No, sir; no one bothered. There weren’t too many around on the 23d. Mostly newsmen was all that was around on the 23d. There wasn’t any crowd, really, but they started congregating on Sunday morning on both sides of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after they had begun to congregate that you saw this man you have identified as Jack Ruby?

Mr. RICHEY. Yes, sir; and then they moved the other people across, and I still saw him after they moved the other people across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM R. SLAUGHTER

The testimony of Malcolm R. Slaughter was taken at 7:30 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in accordance with the Executive order and the joint resolution of Congress, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Slaughter, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and particularly what you may know about Jack Ruby and his whereabouts and movements on Sunday, November 24.

Mr. Slaughter, normally the witnesses are required to come before the Commission by a written letter or notice in writing sent to them by a member of the Commission or the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. I have such a letter in my possession, but we have been unable to get it to you on account of your work.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I have the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it over 3 days ago?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I got it; I got it last Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s fine. Then, it is over 3 days ago. Now, would you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Malcolm R. Slaughter.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Forty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. 5638 Ridgeway Drive, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Slaughter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Line driver.

Mr. HUBERT. For what company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. For Red Ball Motor Freight.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a family man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have a wife and children?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that tonight you are en route from one point to another?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that during last fall you and at least one other of your friends or fellow drivers of trucks rented an apartment as a stopoff or sleeping place here in Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We were domiciled in Dallas at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You were?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us where this apartment was located?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In the Oak Cliff section of Dallas--223 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. What apartment did you have?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Apartment 204.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else shared that apartment with you?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield [spelling] S-c-r-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d, and Sidney Evans.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have that apartment any more, I take it?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I vacated March 1.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. October 30, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. And how often were you there between that date and November 24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You say--how often?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir--I mean--did you live there or were you on the road a great deal of the time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. We maintained our homes in Houston but due to the fact we drove out of Dallas, Tex., off of the pool board in Dallas, we had to maintain a residence in Dallas. That’s why the three of us split costs and rented this apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at--we are talking about a period of approximately 24 or 25 days, from October 31, I think you said, until November 24, and I was just wondering how many of those nights or days you were on the road and didn’t occupy the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, I have logs to substantiate it--I can’t give you the exact figure.

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir--just approximately.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In and out--every time I was in Dallas I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how often, roughly?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It could be every night--every third night, and most generally always on weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did stay in that apartment it would be during the daytime, sometimes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir--mostly in the daytime.

Mr. HUBERT. And mostly on Sundays and Saturdays?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On weekends.

Mr. HUBERT. On weekends?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to meet a man by the name of Jack Ruby who occupied an apartment in that same building?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him prior to November 24, 1963?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say possibly two or three times in passing, only.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever converse with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; only to say “hello” or some such greeting as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know his name at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir--not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 24 you did not know his name?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know George Senator, who lived with him?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him as well as you knew Jack Ruby, say, but of course--you didn’t know him at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t know George Senator to this moment.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man, even if you did not know his name, who shared an apartment with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming precisely to November 24, 1963, do you remember whether you were at the apartment that you have described on that date?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you saw Jack Ruby on that date? At or about or near the apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. At approximately what time did you see him, sir?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Approximately 10:05 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are fixing that time very accurately, and I want to ask you how you do so?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Mr. Evans had just returned from a Catholic church in Oak Cliff, stating that he thought there was a 10 o’clock mass; however, there was none, so he returned to our apartment approximately at 10 o’clock a.m. I had just gotten up when he came in the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Evans you are talking about?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. When Evans came in the apartment, I spoke to him and asked him what happened. He replied there was no mass at 10 a.m. He had decided to go to 11 o’clock mass. I went out in the kitchen and put on the coffee pot. Then I asked Evans how was the weather? He said, “Rather windy.” So, as was my custom, I walked out on the balcony just for my own information to see what the weather was like. It is approximately 50 feet to the railing where I would look down the freeway, and as I walked out the door toward this railing, I met Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the hallway of the place?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. On a balcony, sir. He was coming the opposite way. I said, “Good morning,” and he acknowledged the greeting, not with the words “Good morning,” or “Howdy,” or any such statement, but he did acknowledge the greeting.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, he made no sound but he made a nod, I suppose; is that what you mean?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. “Hmmm”; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You passed right by him, then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Within a matter of a foot or two?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed at that time?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In my terms, I would say very casual, such as a pair of khakis and a light jacket. I, myself, wear khakis and T-shirt as lounging clothes, we’ll use that term. I would say that Jack Ruby was dressed similarly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a coat on, and I don’t mean an overcoat, but a coat to a suit?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a shirt or tie on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I don’t think he did. As I said, he did have a light jacket on and it appeared to be as my dress or a T-shirt, or some nature as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be shaved?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I didn’t observe that closely.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether his hair was disheveled?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. His hair was combed and I’ll say he was more or less looking down as if in deep thought. That’s my impression.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From what direction was he coming?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Direction-wise he was coming from the end of the stairs which would let him walk in front of our apartment on down to his. As for direction, that would be----

Mr. HUBERT. He was going toward his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. If he continued in that direction, he, of course, could get to his apartment, but could he get to the lower floor at all?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not without back tracking or passing his apartment. There is a stairway on either end of the balcony.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him about the middle of it or something like that?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Toward our end.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe whether he went into his apartment or not?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he carrying anything?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he parked his car?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Only hearsay. There was parking space provided for all tenants at the rear of the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, considering where that parking space was, if he were going from his car to his apartment, would he be taking the route you saw him take, or would the other route have been better?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Well, as I say, I don’t know his car--I do not know where he was parked. Presuming he would park where the rest of us did and he was coming from his car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Presumably, it would have been the other end of the stairway that he would have used.

Mr. HUBERT. Rather than what he probably used--that’s the stairway that was on the end toward which you were approaching, is that right?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s correct. My presumption there would be that he had either been to the mailbox or to the manager’s apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Could he have been to the basement where it was possible to wash clothes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s on the other end of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that it would be improbable that he would be coming at that time from the basement area?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. It would be improbable--yes.

Air. Hubert. When Mr. Evans came in, were you awake?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I know not whether I was awake or he awakened me upon entering.

Mr. HUBERT. But you would judge that it would be about 10 minutes from the time that you first spoke to Evans until you saw Jack Ruby, or longer? Or shorter?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. I would say approximately that length of time.

Mr. HUBERT. About 10 minutes?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. About 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in order to get it exactly straight, you would estimate that Evans came in about 5 minutes to 10, and that you occupied yourself in speaking to him a bit, and putting on the coffee, talking about the weather, and subsequently going out on the balcony and at the point at which you saw Ruby 10 minutes had elapsed from the time you first had spoken to Evans?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s approximately correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more that day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there much space between your apartment and his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Two apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. You couldn’t hear anything that might be going on in his apartment?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anything from the direction of his apartment which might have indicated someone was leaving?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear or see his automobile leave?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir; I haven’t seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. This third gentleman who shared the apartments with you, I think you called him Mr. Scritchfield?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Jack Scritchfield.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see Ruby to your knowledge?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not on that day; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sleeping?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just gone to bed within 30 minutes of Evans’ arrival.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge that he was asleep or at least in bed at the time Evans got back?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been up prior to that time and moving around?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. You are speaking of Jack?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. He had just come in off of a run.

Mr. HUBERT. He walked right into the house and undressed and went to bed?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. In a very short matter of time--I don’t know exactly what time Jack got to the apartment, but he had been on an overnight run and he had just arrived and was due to sleep all day Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that you saw Ruby, had Sidney Evans mentioned anything to you about having seen him also?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not until after the television program.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen Ruby in or about the apartments with any feminine company?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him there walking in or about with any man?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him with a dog?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Slaughter, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission prior to this occasion?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. Not the Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else that you can tell us regarding the movements of Jack Ruby on this day or on any other day?

Mr. SLAUGHTER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. We appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SLAUGHTER. That’s all right--I hope this was some help.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you again.

TESTIMONY OF VERNON S. SMART

The testimony of Vernon S. Smart was taken at 12:15 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am one of the attorneys on the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission Investigating the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive order issued by President Johnson and joint resolution of Congress. The Executive order is No. 11130 and the congressional resolution is No. 137. We have promulgated a set of rules of procedure, the Commission has, and under these rules of procedure, I have been given authority to take your sworn deposition. Part of our rules of standard procedure is to explain to you in advance what the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is. I will state in a general fashion that we are trying to ascertain and evaluate and report back to the President on the facts, and all of the facts, that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Oswald. Our particular concern in calling you has more to do with the assassination or murder of Lee Oswald than it has to do with the assassination of the President; however, we want to have all of the information that you have which you think is pertinent to the matter that the Commission is involved in. Now, we have addressed a letter, that is, the General Counsel has addressed a letter, to Chief Curry requesting that you be made available to appear here. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to a personal 3-day notice before you testify. You can waive this notice. I will ask you right now if you want the 3-day notice or whether you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. SMART. No; I will waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you are entitled to have an attorney here, and some of the witnesses do have attorneys and others of them don’t, and I take it that, by the fact that you are appearing here alone, that you do not desire an attorney; however, if you do desire to have an attorney present representing you, I wish you would say so at this time, and don’t feel that it would be any embarrassment to any of us or we would be concerned about it.

Mr. SMART. No; I don’t feel like I need one right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you.

Mr. SMART. Not for this; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anybody.

Mr. SMART. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a factfinding matter, and I think more than very many people fully appreciate that this investigation is intimately connected with the security of the country.

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, most particularly the security of the President, and it is terribly important from a standpoint of protection and making sure that things don’t happen in the future----

Mr. SMART. I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That we get everything. We have collected a lot of information in this area, and I can only tell you that what you think might be unimportant or would be more interested in withholding for fear of embarrassing somebody could be terribly important to us when all of the pieces are put together.

Mr. SMART. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any questions about what we are doing here?

Mr. SMART. No; I think I understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me swear you in, then. If you will, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SMART. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant Smart, when were you born?

Mr. SMART. July 10, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now?

Mr. SMART. Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?

Mr. SMART. 2120 Ballycastle Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are a lieutenant?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. SMART. Twenty-nine years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of this staff? I am not talking about FBI agents, but any members of the President’s Commission staff----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than me?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have I interviewed you before taking your deposition here?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark here for identification purposes a copy of an interview that was held with you by Special Agents Bookhout and Myers, [spelling] M-y-e-r-s, and that is Bookhout [spelling], B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 25, 1963. I am going to mark that, “Dallas, Texas, Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5021.” I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you have had a chance to read that over?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections that you would care to make in that?

Mr. SMART. No. I told it to them just as I saw and heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you file a report of your own activities with the police department?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would be good enough to provide us with a copy of that. You think, after this interview is over, you could get a copy of it and provide it to us?

Mr. SMART. Could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. You say could I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I think so. I don’t have it in my possession.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have asked everybody else, and there is no problem on that.

Mr. SMART. Yes, I am sure they will.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Were you on duty on November 22?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on November 23?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you come to work that day?

Mr. SMART. 7 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are in charge of the auto theft division, is that right?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any officer who is above you in the auto theft division?

Mr. SMART. At that time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. No. You say are there or was there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the relationship of Captain Nichols?

Mr. SMART. He was off duty that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. But he is also an officer in it?

Mr. SMART. He is in charge of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is----

Mr. SMART. He is the captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is in charge of the whole division?

Mr. SMART. The whole bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. In his absence, I am in charge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, what time did you leave on the 23d, leave work?

Mr. SMART. It was late in the afternoon. I don’t remember the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 23d, did you give any assistance in connection with the investigation of the murder of the President, did you lend any assistance to that----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To that investigation?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you lend any assistance in connection with preserving security in the building or press relations or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--I am talking about the 23d.

Mr. SMART. Twenty-third?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you did on the 23d in that regard?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to have all of the men in my bureau to stand by to assist in the transfer of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you told this by Chief Stevenson?

Mr. SMART. It must have been--I can’t say for sure--in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday morning?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the day before the transfer.

Mr. SMART. Said he didn’t know what time they were going to move him but to have all of the men stand by available.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then pass the word throughout your division?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you prepare any written memorandum of this?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be anything in writing to indicate what sort of instructions were given or that there were instructions given?

Mr. SMART. All verbal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with any particular men about this in your department?

Mr. SMART. I talked to each one of them, told them to stand by and I would tell them when to report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, of course, nothing happened, he wasn’t moved that day, Oswald was not moved on Saturday?

Mr. SMART. Wait a minute. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you were.

Mr. SMART. I am talking about the day he was moved.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am all crossed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I asked you.

Mr. SMART. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. SMART. I am speaking of Sunday, the day they moved him, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Saturday, I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you came to work on Sunday, had you heard anything, even by way of rumor, with respect to the fact that Oswald might be moved that day?

Mr. SMART. That was when?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came to work--before you arrived at work on Sunday morning.

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I didn’t hear anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was Stevenson when he talked to you about having your men ready?

Mr. SMART. In his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you personally there or did you receive this by telephone?

Mr. SMART. I received it from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have any discussion with him at that time----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the moving?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; he said have the men stand by and he would notify me when to have them report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Oswald was actually moved, would you estimate?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure, but I think I must have talked to him between--it must have been around 9 o’clock in the morning or maybe earlier. I am not sure. I didn’t make a note of the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were there other department heads or bureau heads in there at the time that you got this information?

Mr. SMART. In and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to whether Stevenson made a general request to all bureaus to have their men stand by or was this just specifically directed toward you?

Mr. SMART. I think it was general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, do you have any confirmation of that, have you talked to other bureau heads, for example, to find out?

Mr. SMART. Captain Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau is he connected with?

Mr. SMART. Forgery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the other bureau heads there? Did you talk to them?

Mr. SMART. Captain Martin, we discussed it among ourselves about having our men stand by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did you discuss it with those gentlemen?

Mr. SMART. Shortly after I talked with Stevenson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. It was general knowledge around that all of the men were supposed to stand by. You know how those things get out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I see. Now, when was the next time that you got any information about the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. SMART. In the neighborhood of 11 o’clock, it could have been before or after a little bit, Chief Stevenson told me to have my men report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you took your men down to the basement?

Mr. SMART. I instructed the men to go down to the basement and I went with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you personally place these men----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In any positions?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if----

Mr. SMART. I turned them over to Captain Jones, he was handling that, and I told him, if I could help him, to let me know, that I would be down there, and he placed them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. SMART. At that time, they were attempting to back this armored truck in, and I walked up the ramp, and they were having difficulty getting it in on account of the height of it and so forth, and Chief Batchelor was present, if I am not mistaken, he went down with us or in the group, and he and I decided with the driver that we couldn’t get it all of the way down, and parked it about a third of the way down, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a uniformed officer?

Mr. SMART. Beg your pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you wear a uniform?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get here a diagram that we have been using. I am going to ask you to mark on this diagram. This is a diagram of the basement. Here is the jail office.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The ramp up to Commerce Street, the ramp down from Main Street, and the garage area. Now, can you mark on this map or chart----

Mr. SMART. This ramp goes on out like this, doesn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. This is really a solid wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain what this is here. This is the basement wall, this far black line is the basement wall, which underneath the ground goes all of the way out to the sidewalk, beyond the sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. However, at the street level----

Mr. SMART. This would all be sidewalk?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would all be sidewalk.

Mr. SMART. I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you show us on this diagram where you were standing just before Lee Oswald was shot?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would say about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark it with an “X” if you would?

Mr. SMART. All right. Roughly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do something? Would you put your initials beside it or something to indicate that that is you? Okay. Now, did you see Sam Pierce’s car go out of the driveway?

Mr. SMART. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction or what were you doing at the time that Pierce’s car would have gone out about a minute ago?

Mr. SMART. I don’t know when his car went out. I heard them talking about it. It was supposed to have gone out this way, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; now, when you were standing by the armored car, were you looking up to Commerce Street?

Mr. SMART. At the time of the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at the time of the shooting.

Mr. SMART. Well, I was looking every way that I could, this side of the truck, this side of the truck, trying to see down here from time to time, but I couldn’t see much for the television lights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long----

Mr. SMART. I was mainly interested in the security angle from across the street, so forth. That was my thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you remained--how long had you been here by the side of this armored truck prior to the time that you heard any shots in the basement?

Mr. SMART. Oh, long enough that, when the truck backed down, Batchelor and I found some bottles in it, anything that might be used as a weapon that was loose in the truck. I don’t know how long that would have been, practically all of the time that I was in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. No; I was up here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to mark up there where the truck was? Why don’t you mark a square where the truck was?

Mr. SMART. This is strictly guesswork because I didn’t measure in feet or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is all right. Just a rough idea. And you were standing at the place where you were standing beside the truck?

Mr. SMART. I had been in the truck, around the truck, I had taken some bottles over here and set them on a ledge out of the way and I had walked back--of course, this doesn’t represent too many feet--approximately halfway from the truck down to the end of the ramp, and at the time that I heard the shot, I was looking out this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What did you do at the time that you heard the shot?

Mr. SMART. What did I do at the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SMART. I immediately rushed down to where the scuffle was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you at any time go into the jail office?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that you talked to “Blackie” Harrison right after the scuffle.

Mr. SMART. Yes, uh-huh, as soon as I got to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby still there?

Mr. SMART. Yes; I asked “Blackie” who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with “Blackie” after that that day?

Mr. SMART. Later in the day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMART. I don’t recall it if I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Between the time that you talked with Harrison and the time that you were informed that you should go to Ruby’s car and search the car, what did you do?

Mr. SMART. I was told by Chief Stevenson to check all of--to put guards on the elevators and on the doors on the first floor.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you do that?

Mr. SMART. I did that, and I went back to my office, resumed my usual routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the third floor?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain up there on the third floor before you were asked to do something in connection with Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. I couldn’t say for sure. It was some time, though, elapsed, quite some time elapsed, and Chief Stevenson would call me on the phone and gave me the license number of his car and told me where it was parked, asked me--told me there was a sum of money in it, to go over and remove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got out there, and I take it from your statement that you found that somebody else had already been to the car?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were the first one to the car?

Mr. SMART. I don’t think I said that anyone else had been to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will correct the record, because his statement doesn’t reflect it, what I said. All right. When you got to the car, was the car locked or unlocked?

Mr. SMART. The doors were unlocked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have a key to the car at that time?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been told at that time whether or not there was a key to the car----

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or whether you needed one?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I hadn’t been told. I just assumed that the keys were in the car, but nobody told me that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got there----

Mr. SMART. Being on a parking lot, you know, naturally, I didn’t think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a dog in that car?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the dog when you got to the car?

Mr. SMART. The dog had crawled under a newspaper in the front seat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do with the dog when you got in?

Mr. SMART. We had the squad come by and get it and take it to the animal shelter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else that accompanied you out to that automobile?

Mr. SMART. Lieutenant Swain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is all?

Mr. SMART. Well, we called the uniformed squad there a little bit later and had the car put in the pound. It seems to me like there was one more detective. I don’t remember. I believe it was Detective Watson. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first thing you searched?

Mr. SMART. The glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I understand that you found his wallet in the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a key to fit the trunk?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever find out whether Ruby had a wallet on his person?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any inquiry?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Ruby about any of the equipment which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the property which you found in the automobile?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; not in my presence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that you know of?

Mr. SMART. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the normal procedure, who would be the person who would question him about that property?

Mr. SMART. Well, I would think it would be Captain Fritz.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you examine this billfold?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you recall being in that billfold?

Mr. SMART. His driver’s license and several cards of identification like you would normally carry in a billfold, but I don’t remember each one, what they were or anything. Different cards with his name on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Social security card?

Mr. SMART. I believe his social security card was there. I am not sure. There was just stuff--cards and papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you think you would be able to identify that wallet and contents?

Mr. SMART. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else in there besides identification cards in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any money in the wallet?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what else did you find in the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. A key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A single key?

Mr. SMART. A single key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this--where was this?

Mr. SMART. Just laying in the floor of the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it under some papers or anything like that?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; wasn’t much stuff in the glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in the glove compartment besides the key and the wallet?

Mr. SMART. I remember looking, but I remember there was nothing of importance that would have any bearing on anything. There was something there, not much, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the key on top and exposed?

Mr. SMART. No. The billfold was on top and the key was laying over on the side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. SMART. Just a lone key, a General Motors key.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did it appear there had been any effort to conceal it?

Mr. SMART. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you searched the glove compartment, what did you do? What did you search after the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. Well, I sat down in the front seat to try this key, and I put my hand down on these papers, and that is when I felt the dog. The dog raised up. It didn’t fit the ignition keys, I mean the ignition switch, so I knew it was a General Motors key, and I owned an Oldsmobile, and it looked like it might be a trunk key, and I tried it, and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, up to this point, you hadn’t searched the interior of the car, nothing but the glove compartment?

Mr. SMART. No, sir; nothing but just look over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took this key, you were able to open the trunk, weren’t you?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see when you opened that trunk?

Mr. SMART. Well, some paper bags and some bank sacks, maybe one bank sack, and just full of junk, almost full of junk, except there was a set of keys laying right down in the open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this a set of keys?

Mr. SMART. Well, it was a bunch of keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they on a ring?

Mr. SMART. A ring or something to hold them together; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many keys would you say were on this?

Mr. SMART. Oh, roughly four or five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any keys that looked like they might be keys to a house or door?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many keys on there appeared that they would be automobile keys?

Mr. SMART. I don’t remember now. I can tell that the other key, you know, they were shaped a little different, one of them was the ignition key, and I tried it, and it worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you were to see these keys, do you think that you would recognize them?

Mr. SMART. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see the keys in the car, in the trunk of the car?

Mr. SMART. Laying right in the floorboard of the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the front?

Mr. SMART. Near the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Exposed to view?

Mr. SMART. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they in relationship to the paper sacks and the money bags?

Mr. SMART. To the right. The paper bags were more in the back. He had two or three boxes of pictures of girls, and things like that, that we just thumbed through, maybe stacks of them that high, a lot of cards to his club. That was mostly what the stuff was in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these keys were placed where you found them and one had been driving that car, would the motion--were they placed in such a way that the motion of the car or bumps and whatnot would move these about?

Mr. SMART. I would think they would probably have scooted under papers or something, would have been my guess, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything that you saw or that you have learned that would indicate to you how long those keys might have been in the back of that trunk prior to the time that you opened it?

Mr. SMART. You want my thought?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I do.

Mr. SMART. My thought, when I found things like they were, that Jack Ruby had purposely put his billfold in the glove compartment and purposely put his keys in the trunk compartment and locked it up and purposely left his trunk key in the glove compartment so he could get to it. That was my thought. I wondered why he left his billfold with all of his identification in it in his glove compartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have your opinion as a trained investigator, anything else that led you to believe this or why, other than simply the placement that we have just discussed, that would have led you to think that he had done what you mentioned?

Mr. SMART. Because, when he left the car on the lot, there was no attendant there, I guess was the main reason. He parked it in an odd place and up on an incline deal on the lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it an odd place?

Mr. SMART. Well, the lot is kind of uneven, and it was pretty close out to the center of the lot. It was where an old building had been torn down and left some concrete in one place, you know, like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you--I am going to interrupt this just one second here while I get this exhibit marked, and I am going to ask you, while I mark this exhibit, would you draw on this piece of paper the intersection there, the intersection of Commerce, Main and Pearl, and then would you draw the parking lot where Ruby’s car was found?

Mr. SMART. These are two parking lots. They are all together but separately operated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put the two streets in there so we would know which is Main and which is Pearl? Now, which is Commerce?

Mr. SMART. This is south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Let me ask you. Start over again here on another sheet of paper. I want to get more detail on here.

Mr. SMART. Oh, I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would probably he easiest if you would draw the block, Commerce, Harwood, Pearl and Main, and indicate the location of the police department, the Western Union office and the parking lots on the corner of Main and Pearl, and then show us which parking lot Jack’s car was in.

Mr. SMART. I am not a very good artist, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is okay. Is that the parking lot?

Mr. SMART. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SMART. Roughly about there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, we will go on the record. Now, you have drawn a diagram here, which I am going to mark, “Dallas, Texas, Lieutenant Smart, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5023,” and that appears to be a diagram of the intersection of Main and Pearl with the Western Union marked and parking lot designated on the northwest corner of Main and Pearl and an automobile marked out there. Is that pencil mark of an automobile your best estimate of where you found Ruby’s car?

Mr. SMART. That is approximately about where the car was parked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other cars in the parking lot at that time?

Mr. SMART. At that time, the parking lot had opened officially; there were a few more cars; I don’t recall where they were--and an attendant there.

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