Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the first page, is it not? What paragraph?

Mr. LOWERY. First page, first paragraph interview by Mr. Bookhout of the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. You are going to start reading, so say "quote".

Mr. LOWERY. Quote, "Lowery stated he and several others grabbed Ruby," unquote. Now, I didn't--I didn't grab Ruby. Several other officers did. I didn't touch Ruby at all at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell this man----

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect?

Mr. LOWERY. I do not recall--no, I touched Ruby later, but not at this particular time. This is the time where Ruby was disarmed and taken into the jail office. I didn't touch him at all at that particular time. There were several other officers around him. I couldn't even get to him.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you touch him?

Mr. LOWERY. He was carried into the jail office by several officers, and after coming into the jail office by myself, I held one of Jack Ruby's legs while he was given a quick shakedown before he was taken upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make about that Exhibit 5082?

Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe that there is any others on this one. Yes. On Page 2, of this same exhibit--let's see, where could I start. Now, would you like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read the whole sentence even though it is several lines?

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, I think it will be clearer.

Mr. LOWERY. All right, quote "He stated this camera was never put into operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was never taken off. Lowery stated that the following--that following the shooting, the action of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera from the area was brought to the attention of Lt. R. E. Swain, and they were taken to homicide and robbery bureau for questioning." unquote. The facts are, are that the cameramen were not taken to homicide and robbery bureau. I accompanied those men up on the third floor where they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and I stayed with those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half until I contacted Lieutenant Baker in the homicide division and told him the reason that I was with those people, and he advised me to take their names and addresses, business address and business phone, and home phone number, and that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any longer. I took this information and turned it in to Lieutenant Baker and released the cameramen.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you wish to say about it?

Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe there is any other.

Mr. HUBERT. 5082. Anything other about 5082?

Mr. LOWERY. No, that is--nothing further.

Mr. HUBERT. As to Exhibit 5083, I ask you if it is correct, do you have any changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it?

Mr. LOWERY. On page 1, paragraph 2--let's see, "The contingent from the juvenile bureau consisted of Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby, Patrolman W. J. Harrison and myself, Lowery."

The facts are that Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby went from the third--juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room 314, city hall, down the elevator to the basement of the city hall. As we came off the elevator we met Patrolman W. J. Harrison coming up the hall from the police locker room, and he accompanied us to the location in the basement where Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "city hall," you mean the police department building, not the municipal building?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir. Police and courts building.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, any further comments about Exhibit 5083?

Mr. LOWERY. Now, I have one change here.

Mr. HUBERT. On what page?

Mr. LOWERY. On page 2, paragraph 3. Now, this is the only thing, the only change is--I don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the whole thing--is the TV station WPAB. In this report it says, "WPAB".

Mr. HUBERT. It is a typographical----

Mr. LOWERY. It is wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, that's correct, and now, I don't think we have to do anything more about it.

Mr. LOWERY. All right. Then, on page 2 in--let's see, this page 2, paragraph 4, and this will carry on to paragraph 1 of page 3. All right. "This police car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were two or three officers in the car."

That is a mistake. The facts are is this police car was a marked squad car, occupied by one officer, and that officer was Officer O'Dell, who is a patrolman, and as far as I can say, he was alone in the car. Only person in the car. All right. On page 3, this also is in paragraph 1. "He did not know who this individual was until his hat fell off in the melee and he saw it was Jack Ruby whom he has known for several years."

The facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was fired, or within a fraction of a second thereafter, I did recognize the person firing the shot as being Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. The correction there being that you recognized him before his hat fell off, is that what you mean?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say that I recognized him before his hat fell off. I don't----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him before he fired the shot?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, it seemed like to me at the same time. Now, of course, this happened directly in front of me, closer than--about half of the distance between the two of us and----

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness indicates the distance that I would judge to be approximately 6 feet.

Mr. LOWERY. Well, he would be within 4 feet, I think. That Jack Ruby would be within 4 feet of me.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the distance that I judge is 6 feet, you think is about two-thirds of that distance?

Mr. LOWERY. That's right. Three to 4 feet, and I couldn't say that Jack Ruby's hat--I couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

All right. Now, you have looked over the other pages of 5083, and handed it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or--wrong statements or anything that you would like to comment upon?

Mr. LOWERY. Best I can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to have you identify a chart of the basement area of the Dallas Police Department and I am marking upon it for the purposes of identification the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit Number 5084, deposition of R. L. Lowery." And I am signing my name below that, and just for the purposes of identification, I wish you would sign your name below it, too, below my name.

I would like you to look at the mockup here and--if you will come over here with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and I would like you to--by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup where you were standing and then we will mark it on the map.

Mr. LOWERY. All right. I was standing exactly at this point here [indicating]. In fact, the corner--I was leaning back against the corner, and I could feel it exactly between my shoulder blades.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am marking a circle right here as the point that you are talking about?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; and that would be on the southwest corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor and the ramp?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle around the position you have indicated and I am writing the words, "Position of R. L. Lowery at the time of the shooting," which I am also placing in a circle. Now, is that correct, sir? That was your position?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long had you been in that position prior to the shooting?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, I couldn't definitely say how long I had been at that one particular position. I had been in this area for, oh, from approximately 10 minutes. I had been within a few feet of there. I just took this position a few minutes, and--or maybe a couple of minutes before the shooting actually took place, but I was standing within a few feet of that point.

Mr. HUBERT. At the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that position?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would judge you had been in that position about 2 minutes?

Mr. LOWERY. I don't believe it would be any more than 2 minutes' time. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. You were facing then in the general direction of the TV cameras?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, when the actual shooting took place.

Mr. HUBERT. And the time before that? I want to get both?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, I looked both ways, both left and right.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you if you scanned the crowd?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, in the direction of the TV cameras, the lights were so bright I couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. I could see forms, but I couldn't--I wouldn't be able to----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a detective, W. J. Harrison, I think he is called "Blackie" Harrison?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in your line of vision?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you see him?

Mr. LOWERY. I saw him shortly before the shooting. Now, at the time all the TV lights and everything were turned on, I don't recall seeing "Blackie" from that time until the shot was actually fired.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the position, approximately, of Harrison, the last time you were able to see him, and then translate that by placing a circle on the map that----

Mr. LOWERY. Let me get squared away here. He would have been in this general area. I couldn't say in relation to this wall--to this guardrail. I would think they would have been approximately----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am going to mark a line, which I am labeling as line "A, B," and then I want to ask you to take the pen and put the approximate position of Harrison the last time you saw him.

Mr. LOWERY. Well, I would say about this [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have made an "X," and I am putting a circle about the "X," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of W. J. Harrison--" the approximate position, is that what you mean?

Mr. LOWERY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. "The approximate position of W. J. Harrison when last seen by Lowery."

Mr. LOWERY. Before----

Mr. HUBERT. "Before the shooting." Right?

Mr. LOWERY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am encircling that language and connecting it with the position marked "X." Now, can you give us any estimation of how long before the shooting was the last time that you saw Harrison?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in my estimation I found that they were so far off that I couldn't--I just don't have any idea. It couldn't have been more than a couple of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; you did not see him after that, though, did you?

Mr. LOWERY. I saw him after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after that position?

Mr. LOWERY. As far as I remember, no, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that the TV lights had been turned on after that?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, the TV lights were so bright. I don't remember seeing Harrison, but I don't say that I was completely blinded by the TV lights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come up from the crowd?

Mr. LOWERY. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come out from the crowd?

Mr. LOWERY. The first time I saw Ruby he was lunging, and almost instantaneously the shot was fired, and I couldn't--I couldn't say that I saw him come from the crowd. I saw a blur, and about this time the shot was fired, and there is Jack Ruby right in front of me.

Mr. HUBERT. What side of "Blackie" Harrison did Ruby come from with relation to Harrison himself?

Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't say which side that----

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether it was on Harrison's left side or right side?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just before the shooting that had a flashing red light on top of it and two or three officers in the car?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. I remember the marked squad car being driven with Officer O'Dell going up the--oh, we call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which--with his red lights on, but this car only had the one officer in it, the best I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Rio Pierce?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him drive a car up that ramp?

Mr. LOWERY. I will say that between the time that Officer O'Dell went up the north ramp, I couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how much time had elapsed, but there was a plain car, and I believe it was driven by Lieutenant Pierce, and he had a couple or three other officers. I couldn't say exactly how many officers were in the car, but it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the north ramp to the Main Street entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after O'Dell had passed?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; best I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that the statement--I would ask you to have another look at the statement, which is Exhibit 5083, and ask you if it is the statement that you previously corrected so that it would refer to O'Dell. Isn't it, in fact, correct insofar as it would deal with what you have just said about Pierce?

Mr. LOWERY. Now, here is the statement we changed.

Mr. HUBERT. I see your point, and that is that the O'Dell car did not have a red light on it?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir, it did, but the O'Dell was--the O'Dell car was a marked squad car, and that was the change that we made. This O'Dell's car was the first car to go up the ramp, and he was--there was only one person in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. But, then, there was another marked car----

Mr. LOWERY. There was an unmarked car.

Mr. HUBERT. There was an unmarked car, and that is Pierce?

Mr. LOWERY. Pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another officer in the car. I couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the time interval between the O'Dell car movements up that ramp and Pierce's movements up that ramp?

Mr. LOWERY. I couldn't--I couldn't--I'd be afraid to say exactly, but probably wasn't more than a minute in that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow the car, or the Pierce car up the ramp with your eyes, I mean?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is an offset here, and from my position here I would only see a short distance up the ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning and central-heating unit back in here that I would--if my view hadn't been obstructed by the line of people on that side I wouldn't have been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody coming down? I understand from your statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came down the ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, couldn't you?

Mr. LOWERY. I wouldn't be able to. I didn't see anybody come down the ramp. They could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing them, but I didn't see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking area into the ramp on the Main Street side?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; not that I remember. I couldn't see--couldn't see the rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers and the TV cameras and lights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby thereafter?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him after that?

Mr. LOWERY. Which point?

Mr. HUBERT. After the shooting?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, as I told you, the officers took him into the jail office, and I went into the jail office, and they were in the process of searching him, and he was struggling, and I held one--I believe his left leg. Had him down on his back, and I held his left leg while he was doing a quick shakedown and then he was taken to the elevator and upstairs, and that is the last that I saw of him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Detective Lowery, have you anything else that you would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in these several exhibits we have identified here today?

Mr. LOWERY. Well, I think they--I haven't been through the police report, the investigation in the police department made by Captain Jones. I believe that they had--a little more in detail.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring, I think, to a document contained in Commission's report 81-A, that is page 66, consisting of two pages and entitled, "Investigation of Operational Security Involving the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963," which was supplied to the Commission by the Dallas Police Department through the attorney general.

Since I do not have an extra copy of this document, I am going to allow it to remain in the volume, but I am going to mark it for identification as I have marked the others, and that is, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, exhibit Number 5085," which purports to be an interview of you. Now wait--I'll finish the identification, 5085, deposition of R. L. Lowery, signing my name on the first sheet and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. This is an interview of R. L. Lowery, November 29, 1963, by Lt. P. G. McCaghren and Lt. C. C. Wallace. I think you have read this document, have you not, sir?

Mr. LOWERY. Let me brush through it right quick. I don't----

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Referring to Exhibit 5085, do you now say that it is correct? Are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications to make?

Mr. LOWERY. It is correct, as far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Anything else you want to say?

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir; I believe that's----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the deposition by any member of the Commission? I don't think there was any interview between you and me before.

Mr. LOWERY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. FRANK M. MARTIN

The testimony of Capt. Frank Martin was taken at 2 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Frank M. Martin of the juvenile division, Dallas Police Department. Captain Martin, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized by the Commission to take the sworn deposition of you, Captain Martin.

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Captain Martin, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. No; Captain Martin, do--you have appeared here by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, that the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Do you wish to waive that notice?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and raise your right hand and I will now swear you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain MARTIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, Captain Martin.

Captain MARTIN. Frank M. Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please?

Captain MARTIN. Fifty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Captain MARTIN. 906 West Five Mile Parkway.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation today, and how long have you been in that occupation?

Captain MARTIN. I am a police officer in Dallas. I have been in it for 30 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Your rank is what now?

Captain MARTIN. Captain.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of captain, sir?

Captain MARTIN. Since 1951, about 13 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties with the Dallas Police Department?

Captain MARTIN. I have charge of the juvenile bureau. We handle all juvenile affairs.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, captain, I have two documents here which I am going to mark for identification and then I will question you concerning them. Now, I am marking this document March 24, 1963, addressed to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which apparently was signed by you. Marking this as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5058, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin, and I'm signing my name to that document which consists of one page, and I'm also marking another document which apparently is the report of an interview of you, Captain Martin, by Special Agents of the FBI, to wit: Alvin J. Zimmerman and Joseph G. Peden, on December 2nd, 1963." The document consists of one full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5059. Deposition of F. M. Martin." Signing my name on that. I am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. Now, Captain, I believe that you have only recently, that is to say, about 2 or 3 hours ago, had occasion to read both of these documents?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. 5058 and 5059. I now ask you if those documents represent the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions or additions----

Captain MARTIN. Well, of course, there----

Mr. HUBERT. That you would like to make in it?

Captain MARTIN. This "Miller," they have there once, where it should be my name in the first paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking of the third line, the first page of Exhibit 5059, where the second sentence starts, "Capt. Miller," and apparently the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of you, it would be "Capt. Martin," is that right?

Captain MARTIN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am, therefore, going to circle the word "Miller," and--with a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been changed by putting my initial on it, and I am going to ask you at a later time to put your initials on it, too.

Captain MARTIN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as you know?

Captain MARTIN. Yes. There is one area in there in the ramps that I don't quite understand. Did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door into the building, the corridor door or----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, I think you are speaking of the second to the last sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 5059, sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "He advised that auxiliary officers were stationed at each ramp."

Captain MARTIN. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. "And that to his north, this was the only entrance to the compound which Ruby could have used." Now, what is it that you would like to say about that, sir?

Captain MARTIN. There is a double door going into this basement at the city hall which I wouldn't consider a ramp. They never considered it that. I don't know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail building into the basement area?

Captain MARTIN. It is from the garage area into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Captain MARTIN. I don't know----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, did you make any statement to them about auxiliary officers being stationed at any place?

Captain MARTIN. Yes. Yes; I told them that there were, but I meant the two ramps coming into the basement from the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you want to clarify about this is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers and ramps, that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of the Main and Commerce ramps?

Captain MARTIN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not have reference to the officers at other passageways?

Captain MARTIN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I might ask you in connection with that same thing, what do you mean by the word "compound"?

Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn't use that word?

Captain MARTIN. No; that must be theirs.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you understand there, because the report is that you said "That this was the only entrance into the compound which Ruby could have used"?

Captain MARTIN. I didn't use that word.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were you referring to?

Captain MARTIN. Of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is the area right outside the jail door there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean what is commonly called the basement area including the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the space between the two ramps?

Captain MARTIN. I am sure it is, because I didn't use the word "compound."

Mr. HUBERT. Let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct then if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general basement area as I just defined it a moment ago?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, then it would be correct to say that, to your knowledge, the two ramps, to wit, those--the one leading from Main Street, and the one leading from Commerce Street were the only entrances to the basement area, as we defined it a moment ago, that Ruby could have used?

Captain MARTIN. More that he could have used, yes; but, of course, you----

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to qualify it----

Captain MARTIN. We were speaking of these two ramps. And we were talking of him coming down into the basement off the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Captain MARTIN. Of course, you have got the city hall. I mean, the police and courts building, and also got the city hall. He could have been--come down the elevator over here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you want to modify this statement then so that your present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the Main Street and the Commerce Street entrances were the only mode of entrance to the basement?

Captain MARTIN. No, no; there are other ways to get in there.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. What other ways are there?

Captain MARTIN. There is--coming from the police and courts building to the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into the garage area and come across, but as far as I remember, that wasn't brought up. They were speaking of those two ramps.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Was the explanation that we have now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, 5059, is substantially correct?

Captain MARTIN. I don't know exactly what he means here by "He knew of no unauthorized persons to be in the basement."

I don't know what----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, sir; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we now know what you are thinking is about it. I ask you to please do so.

Captain MARTIN. I don't quite--that is not very clear to me, "He knew of no unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement."

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get at it this way. Do you know what security precautions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were not in the basement?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; they had men at the top of both of the outside ramps, and I presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, but apparently they didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"?

Captain MARTIN. Well, there were so many people down there. The press, TV, radio. Of course, all had been checked before they came in. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to checking?

Captain MARTIN. I didn't receive any instructions at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you could recognize an unauthorized person?

Captain MARTIN. Nothing was said. Of course, if I'd had seen Jack Ruby, I'd have known him. I've known him for a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the people have identifying badges or anything of that sort?

Captain MARTIN. No; so far as I know, they didn't. In fact, there was nothing--there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who wasn't. There was nothing said about anything--I didn't know anything about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when did you come on duty that day, sir?

Captain MARTIN. That morning, it was my Sunday to work, 8:15.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the movement of Oswald?

Captain MARTIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was?

Captain MARTIN. I knew nothing. I just went down there. That's about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ordered to go down?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. By whom?

Captain MARTIN. Chief Stevenson.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time, sir?

Captain MARTIN. Oh, I would say between 10:30 and 10:45, somewhere around there.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson is your immediate superior?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he instruct you to do?

Captain MARTIN. Just to go to the basement is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any specific duty to perform?

Captain MARTIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, what time was it?

Captain MARTIN. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?

Captain MARTIN. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald?

Captain MARTIN. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like to ask you, Captain, if you could sign the other three documents just below my name, that is to say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second page of 5058, below my initial and then sign 5059. I will ask you to sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document 5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you say you did not move around?

Captain MARTIN. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came out, of course, there was a car sitting right--I guess the back end of the car was coming to about here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, and I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it.

Captain MARTIN. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. About right here.

Mr. HUBERT. About like so?

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by using simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take the pen, sir, and--your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, let's get that.

Captain MARTIN. I was about right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, "The position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, Captain, you think you--you said you had been in that general basement area for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting?

Captain MARTIN. I would say that. I don't know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody you knew?

Captain MARTIN. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the press that I knew.

Mr. HUBERT. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I knew Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think, that is already in report?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; it is in here.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Captain MARTIN. Not until after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you subsequently learned or believed he came from?

Captain MARTIN. No; not directly. Of course--Where is your map? I couldn't have seen him from--if I would have been, because there were people all along here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, to your right, is that right?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. There were people between--on your right, between you and----

Captain MARTIN. And----

Mr. HUBERT. And the Main Street ramp?

Captain MARTIN. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were there in that general area?

Captain MARTIN. I just would have to make an estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. That's right.

Captain MARTIN. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or 10 people.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and I will ask you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so forth. Not exactly. I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded were the conditions?

Captain MARTIN. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people up in that--up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean in the Main Street ramp?

Captain MARTIN. Now, wait a minute. You have got Main Street----

Mr. HUBERT. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street?

Captain MARTIN. No, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a number of people.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Roughly how many people?

Captain MARTIN. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; more or less.

Mr. HUBERT. How many ranks deep would you think?

Captain MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you regard it as a crowd?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I would. Mostly the press. There were some officers in that area also.

Mr. HUBERT. I think this Officer Harrison was----

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?

Captain MARTIN. Yes, yes; he--he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, just about at the edge of the ramp there.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you think Harrison was at the time?

Captain MARTIN. Harrison was about right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is at the time of the shooting?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just extend this with a little line and then write out, "Position of"--what are his initials? W. J.?

Captain MARTIN. W. J.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something clear. Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the other sides of him?

Captain MARTIN. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell.

Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the jail door?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, there was a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it was. I could tell there was a movement.

Mr. HUBERT. By "over here," you mean----

Captain MARTIN. On the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. What side of the ramp? The basement--the garage?

Captain MARTIN. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was standing right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have been. You didn't see Ruby?

Captain MARTIN. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in here somewhere.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate where he was.

Captain MARTIN. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there [indicating]. There is no question about that.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see someone come from that position?

Captain MARTIN. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you write here?

Captain MARTIN. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before."

Mr. HUBERT. All right, just tell us what you observed?

Captain MARTIN. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it dumbfounded me, and I tried to get through the people there on my right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in there, and I had trouble getting through the press, and when I did get through they had already taken Ruby into the jail office and Oswald was also in the jail office. Ruby was down on the floor just inside the jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office with Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him?

Captain MARTIN. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was--it was shortly after they come out--I saw him after the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. You were looking towards him?

Captain MARTIN. Yes; I thought they were coming all around me and go up by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that they--he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the armored car?

Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't know anything about it.

Mr. HUBERT. But, did you know anything about the route that was going to be used?

Captain MARTIN. No, as far as I knew, they were going to put him in the armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I figured they would come right back there and I could go up there with them, but they didn't ever make it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out?

Captain MARTIN. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. At the time I didn't notice them.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were looking where--you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing except what you saw later on television, is that right?

Captain MARTIN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw on--later on television?

Captain MARTIN. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching Oswald when they should have been watching the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. But, that impression you formed by looking at the television coverage of it?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot was fired?

Captain MARTIN. No; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over where I couldn't see them.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the man who shot Oswald?

Captain MARTIN. When I went in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know it until then?

Captain MARTIN. No; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say it was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you?

Captain MARTIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything at all?

Captain MARTIN. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he said anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has been shot." And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time thereafter?

Captain MARTIN. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all?

Captain MARTIN. I--don't take this down.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd better not say it at all.

Captain MARTIN. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I don't say it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't know what you mean by----

Captain MARTIN. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is the facts on it.

Captain MARTIN. I understand.

Mr. HUBERT. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of opinion, that is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this matter, I would ask that you state those facts.

Captain MARTIN. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about the whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this sort of a prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, but the way I saw it, there was no organization at all. I didn't know who was in charge or anything about it. I don't guess anybody--either people should have been told something--what to do and what to expect. We weren't----

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think have any bearing upon----

Captain MARTIN. No, no; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in that report there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you have identified?

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?

Captain MARTIN. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to lunch, I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your deposition taken.

Captain MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the deposition this afternoon?

Captain MARTIN. No, no. It is about the same.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been developed in the record this afternoon?

Captain MARTIN. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think of, you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions to wrap it up.

Captain MARTIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this matter. If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. In other words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as a lapse of memory.

Captain MARTIN. I don't know of a thing right now.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF BILLY JOE MAXEY

The testimony of Billy Joe Maxey was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of--is that Billy Joe Maxey? It is not William?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Billy Joe Maxey?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, on the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Maxey. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Maxey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Maxey, you appeared here by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the Staff of the President's Commission, and under the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of these depositions, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this. I now ask if you are willing to waive it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant MAXEY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.

Sergeant MAXEY. Billy Joe Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Sergeant MAXEY. Thirty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Sergeant MAXEY. 8912 Freeport Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. That in Dallas?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Police Department?

Sergeant MAXEY. Nine years, and approximately a half. Since September 20th, 1954.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your assignment today?

Sergeant MAXEY. Field sergeant, patrol division.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same assignment that you had during the period of November 22 and 24, 1963?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I was acting lieutenant on that particular day. Number 16.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "Number 16"?

Sergeant MAXEY. That is the call from the northeast substation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular orders or functions with respect to the transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; not before I arrived at the central station.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive there?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity of 11 a.m. I am not positive of the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile were you driving then?

Sergeant MAXEY. A plain car, black 1963 model Ford.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, unmarked?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you coming from?

Sergeant MAXEY. Northeast substation.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been ordered in?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to get there then?

Sergeant MAXEY. I had some cards to be taken to 511, where there were requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and I thought perhaps I might be able to assist them. I knew they were going to need all the help they could get down there that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not been ordered down there?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with your car?

Sergeant MAXEY. I parked it on the north end of the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?

Sergeant MAXEY. I approached Putnam. They were dispersing some traffic officers or some officers who worked traffic. They weren't in the traffic division, they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time if there was anything I could do, and he said, that if I would wait a few minutes I could probably go hop in Sergeant Dean's station wagon. I--he didn't elaborate, and I stayed there in the basement there for a few minutes. I don't know exactly how long and Lieutenant Pierce came down and Sergeant Putnam spoke to me, and said, "Why don't you go with us?" And I approached Lieutenant Pierce's car and he was in this--he was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted me to go with him and he said, "Yes."

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform, I take it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, what happened?

Sergeant MAXEY. So, I got into the back seat of Lieutenant Pierce's car. We started to drive out and Sergeant Putnam had to move some reporters back.

Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?

Sergeant MAXEY. I would say in the vicinity of 35. That is a guess, of course, I have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Main Street ramp?

Sergeant MAXEY. At the--that was at the bottom of both ramps, down right outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the Main Street ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time it was, about, when he left?

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, at that time, I wasn't noticing the time, but since all this happened----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don't want you to state what knowledge you have gained since, because we can get at that other ways.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, at that time I thought I had been in the basement approximately 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got there at 11 o'clock?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere in the vicinity.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would think that it would be around 11:15 or 11:16?

Sergeant MAXEY. Somewhere thereabouts.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, where were you seated in the car?

Sergeant MAXEY. On the left side in the back seat. That is the left side facing the way the automobile faces.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp?

Sergeant MAXEY. The best I can remember when we pulled to the top of the ramp and paused, I was looking across Main Street. There was a group of people, a bus or something that attracted my attention--whatever it was I--it didn't amount to much.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that to your left, or to your right?

Sergeant MAXEY. That was----

Mr. HUBERT. Straight ahead?

Sergeant MAXEY. Almost straight ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car stop?

Sergeant MAXEY. I believe there was a momentary hesitation. I don't recall how long.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Officer Vaughn?

Sergeant MAXEY. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. Now, on the way in, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when you were coming at 11 o'clock, you saw him?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay any attention to him on the way out, as I say, I was looking across the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall having seen him at all?

Sergeant MAXEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your right down Main Street in the direction of Pearl?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look to your left down Main Street in the direction of Harwood?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your position is you didn't look either way?

Sergeant MAXEY. I don't believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side?

Sergeant MAXEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got around to the Commerce Street side had the shooting already taken place?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; I suppose it had, because as we--correction--as the Lieutenant backed our car into position in front of the armored car, I heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code 3, to the basement and officers were rushing around, covering exits to the city hall, so apparently it happened just before we arrived. That had given them time to call the dispatcher by phone for an ambulance, would be my guess that we were on Harwood Street at the time that it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further connection with the event?

Sergeant MAXEY. We went to Parkland. Lieutenant Pierce, Sergeant Putnam, and I went to Parkland Hospital and set up security out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk with Jack Ruby at anytime?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man?

Sergeant MAXEY. I know him slightly. I know him by sight.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were driving up?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am marking now three documents as indicated. This is a document, apparently a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two pages. I am marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, Exhibit--March 25, 1964, Exhibit 5094, from the deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing my name below that on the first page, and I am putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page and I'll ask you to be reading that while I mark the second document, which is a report of an FBI interview of December 6, 1963, taken of you by FBI Agents Quigley and Dallman and I am marking that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5095. Deposition of B. J. Maxey." I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert underneath, and marking the second page of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. The third document, I am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5096. Deposition of B. J. Maxey," and signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am marking the second page of that document with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and the third page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I will ask you to read these two documents likewise, and I wish to ask you some questions about them.

Sergeant MAXEY. As far as the report here written to the chief, I would say that it is accurate at the time that I wrote it, and I am willing to sign it as is, and I--what page was it you wanted me to sign here?

Mr. HUBERT. Just under my name.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, you can turn to the next exhibit, which is----

Sergeant MAXEY. The FBI report. There are two of them there. I believe both of them are the same, aren't they? Wait a minute. One of them might possibly be a supplement.

Mr. HUBERT. No; they are different. One is on the 2d of December and the other is on the 6th, so, you'd better separate them. Do you have any comments to make on them?

Sergeant MAXEY. One of the things that I was going to bring up here, changes has been made in this one already, this second one.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see, we are talking about Exhibit 5095.

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you wish to make?

Sergeant MAXEY. In the first report it was stated in there that the FBI report of December 3, I believe----

Mr. HUBERT. 2d.

Sergeant MAXEY. 2d?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant MAXEY. And the report of December 2, Exhibit 5096, it was stated that I saw ex-police officer Daniels and shoeshine boy at the end of the Main Street ramp. That was incorrect. I did not. That was hearsay. I heard that from other officers. I did not see them myself.

Mr. HUBERT. And, as a result of that error you then called the FBI and told them you wished to correct that, is that correct?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; they came back out there.

Mr. HUBERT. They came back out and said what?

Sergeant MAXEY. And asked me some more questions regarding the shine boy. They ask me then did I recall the time and I know at the time I talked to them the first time I told them several things that I didn't see myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant MAXEY. I told them things that I had heard and what have you, and I tried to differentiate between what I could actually testify and what I couldn't at this time he was talking to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Your present recollection is what then? Which is correct?

Sergeant MAXEY. My present recollection is that I didn't see Daniels. I didn't see the shine boy.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the information that you did give about seeing Daniels and the shine boy in the earlier deposition--I mean the earlier statement to the FBI, which is contained in Exhibit 5096 was erroneous in that you had not really seen them, but you had heard people talk about them?

Sergeant MAXEY. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all three statements, however, 5094 and 5095, and 5096, you stated then that you did see Officer Vaughn and yet, as I recall your testimony this evening you said that you did not recall having seen Vaughn.

Sergeant MAXEY. At the present time I don't, but those were written up close to the time all this happened, and I haven't seen one of those reports since, and lots that I don't remember right now that I remembered then, I am sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct, and that's why I wanted you to correct this apparently contradictory statement.

Sergeant MAXEY. That's true, I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. Because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to have conflicts in it.

Sergeant MAXEY. Neither do I, I can assure you.

Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you saw Vaughn there?

Sergeant MAXEY. No; I can recollect at the time, how--at the time I was questioned about Vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him at that time was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. Whether he walked to the curb or out into the street which I didn't know.

Mr. HUBERT. And right now your mind is blank on Vaughn altogether, I take it?

Sergeant MAXEY. Actually, yes. I wasn't--right now I couldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, has anybody asked you to change your statement?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, uh-huh, so far as that goes, I haven't.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you spoken to anybody about it?

Sergeant MAXEY. As far as that goes I haven't talked to anybody about the statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in your statement?

Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-uh.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't know how that comes out on the machine. I suppose you mean "no" by that.

Sergeant MAXEY. No; no. I'd like to say this: That as far as the conflicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would have for getting together and getting his story straight would be to have something to hide, and I want it known right now I have nothing to hide, and I want it on the record.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; it is on the record. This is not an effort to cross you up in any way.

Sergeant MAXEY. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you realize that these statements do exist, and the purpose of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the real facts, and when you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask for explanations we do not get a clear picture.

Sergeant MAXEY. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I want to ask you again if you have any explanation, any other explanation to offer now as to conflicts, or is it just simply your opinion that insofar as Vaughn is concerned, your memory was better then than it is now about that event?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes; I hadn't thought about it too much one way or the other since then. I will say excluding 4 or 5 days thereafter.

Mr. HUBERT. And as to Daniels and the colored boy, your statement now is that that was hearsay. You did not, yourself----

Sergeant MAXEY. That was hearsay, and I gave it to him as an--as a hearsay statement. That was a matter of semantics in my opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record can show we are all talking about the same documents, I would like you to sign below my signature and initial the pages of 5096 and 5095, with the understanding that this is not an approval by you of these statements at all, but simply as a means of identification that you and I were both talking about the same document. So, I would like you to sign my--just below mine and put your initials on the preceding pages.

Sergeant MAXEY. Where is your name?

Mr. HUBERT. My name is right down here in the margin. Just put it right in there. Then initial the other pages until you get to the second FBI statement and then sign under my name. In other words, where my name is signed, sign your name. Where my initials are, put your initials.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, now, there is some more points that I want to bring up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's do this anyhow, what we are doing.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. As I say, this is solely for the purposes of the record showing that we are talking about the same pieces of paper.

Sergeant MAXEY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have further corrections or comments you wish to make on these documents?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; perhaps they are of no importance, and perhaps they are, but it is apparently a misunderstanding on the part--matter of semantics, again, and let's see--paragraph 5, on page 1, states here that--"A few minutes after that Lieutenant Pierce entered the garage driving a black car." Now, I don't remember him entering the garage. I believe his car was already parked down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Sergeant MAXEY. Lieutenant Pierce. I don't believe he drove into the police garage from outside. I believe his car was already parked in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. And other comments?

Sergeant MAXEY. Page 2, paragraph 8.

Mr. HUBERT. That is still 5095?

Sergeant MAXEY. Yes, sir; page 2, paragraph 8. That was the correction I advised the FBI office that I did not actually see Daniels and the shoeshine boy. That this was something I had overheard other officers talking about, and that has already been taken care of. Page 3, paragraph 10. This is concerning----

Mr. HUBERT. That is the 10th paragraph of--actually, the third paragraph, I guess, on that page.

Sergeant MAXEY. Well, it is part of a paragraph and a full paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Last paragraph on the third----

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; next to the last.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, second to the last?

Sergeant MAXEY. Next to the last on the second page.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. It's concerning Jack Ruby. "He first met him----

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in quotes? You are reading that, aren't you?

Sergeant MAXEY. Uh-huh. It states here that I first met him about 2 years ago there that--at his place of business, that I had my wife with me.

Mr. HUBERT. With you?

Sergeant MAXEY. The correction would be that my wife was not with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife was not with you?

Sergeant MAXEY. Not at the time I first met him.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that the record can be clear on a point, did you ever go there with your wife at some other time?

Sergeant MAXEY. Not the Carousel Club. The Vegas Club; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay.

Sergeant MAXEY. And, let's see. I guess that's about it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that is to 5095. Have you any comments as to 5096? I think that is the one that contains your explanation on the previous point.

Sergeant MAXEY. No; second one is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. Wait a minute. I didn't read this. That's all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything more you want to say? Anything you want to add?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir; that's it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Sergeant MAXEY. About all of it, those two statements.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't believe that there has been any previous interview between you and me?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any member of the Commission's staff?

Sergeant MAXEY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF LOGAN W. MAYO

The testimony of Logan W. Mayo was taken at 8:40 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Logan W. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedures adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Mayo. So, I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, the nature of our inquiry is to determine what the facts are that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Mayo, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission by a letter written to J. E. Curry, chief of police asking him to make his officers, reserve and regular, available to the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that the witness may waive this notice if he sees fit to do so. I am asking you if you are willing to waive that 3-day notice?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice and cooperate with you in any way that I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MAYO. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. MAYO. Logan W. Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. MAYO. Fifty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. MAYO. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your civilian occupation, sir?

Mr. MAYO. I am an accountant.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that profession, sir?

Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your own private business?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I am with Sears Roebuck & Company.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, and are you in charge of a division or something with that company?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is?

Mr. MAYO. In charge of accounting and the auditing and the accounts payable of the mail order catalog business.

Mr. HUBERT. In the Dallas----

Mr. MAYO. Dallas region.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed by Sears Roebuck?

Mr. MAYO. Thirty-five years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are also, as I understand, a member of the reserve on the Dallas Police Force?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserve?

Mr. MAYO. Six years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have occasion to be called to duty on November 24, 1963, the Sunday after the President was shot?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been on duty prior to that Sunday?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I want to concern ourselves solely with the Sunday, right now.

Mr. MAYO. No; not on Sunday, not until I was called at 9 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; at 9 o'clock, you did get a call to come on duty?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was it from, do you remember?

Mr. MAYO. I think it was Sergeant Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you to notify any other reservists?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they, do you remember?

Mr. MAYO. He asked me to call the reservists in my squad, which consists of about six, seven people.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a lieutenant, aren't you?

Mr. MAYO. I'm a sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did call?

Mr. MAYO. I called the men, but none of them showed up. They had all gone to church, or was fixing to go to church. I contacted a lot of them and they were leaving to go to Sunday school and they had other plans and none of them could make it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Holly?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in touch with him?

Mr. MAYO. I got in touch with him and he said he would come down as soon as he got loose. I didn't see him at the city hall, though.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Mr. MAYO. I called him on the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time he should get down there or what time the transfer was going to be?

Mr. MAYO. I told him he should try to be there between 10 and 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time the transfer was going to be, or that you thought it was going to be, or anything of that sort?

Mr. MAYO. I told him it might be sometime between 10 and noon. I didn't know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him any more after that?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't see him down at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to the city hall?

Mr. MAYO. I got there about 9:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you stationed?

Mr. MAYO. I was stationed right here, at Commerce Street, guarding this entrance to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup, and he points to the sidewalk area in front of the Commerce Street exit----

Mr. MAYO. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the police department. How long did you stay there, sir?

Mr. MAYO. I was there from about 10:15 until about 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You were what----

Mr. MAYO. Then, I left and went----

Mr. HUBERT. What were your duties?

Mr. MAYO. My duty was to guard the entrance to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "guard," what do you mean?

Mr. MAYO. I was not to permit any people to go in there except maybe the press that had a certified press card.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you given any description of the kind of cards that you could honor?

Mr. MAYO. I was told that they probably would have a press card with their picture on it and their newspaper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to refuse entrance to anyone?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; several people.

Mr. HUBERT. You turned them away?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did some pass by you, that is to say, with your consent, after being properly identified?

Mr. MAYO. You mean enter the building?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MAYO. I let two in from newspapers.

Mr. HUBERT. And they were properly identified?

Mr. MAYO. They were properly identified. One of them had a two-wheeled cart, similar to a two-wheel golf cart and pulling some equipment on it.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of equipment?

Mr. MAYO. It looked like cameras and typewriters.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby or have you seen any pictures since in the paper?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; I don't know him, but I have seen his picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to state that neither of those two men that you let in was Jack Ruby?

Mr. MAYO. Neither of those two men were him. They were smaller in stature. I want to tell you that at 11:30, I left the entrance and went to the other one on Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup and when he says he left "this entrance," he was pointing to the Commerce Street entrance, and then he went to the----

Mr. MAYO. Main Street entrance?

Mr. HUBERT. Main Street entrance.

Mr. MAYO. The other----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the building?

Mr. MAYO. I went in the building, stayed over there until 1:10.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. MAYO. I got off duty and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go out to the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I was asked to go, but didn't have any relief so they wanted the guard, there was about a hundred or so people congregating and coming up from church and everywhere else, and just a big crowd there, see, and I was needed there.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street entrance?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, for purposes of identification I want to mark what purports to be a signed copy of a report to Chief Curry, dated December 3, 1963, and signed, actually, by Jack Revill, and F. I. Cornwall, by placing in the right-hand margin the following, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, deposition of R. L. Mayo." I am signing my name under that, and I'll ask you if you have read that, Mr. Mayo? I mean read the letter?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, I have read that.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you endorse your name underneath it? I'm also endorsing a document which is a report of FBI Agent Wilkinson dated December 5, 1963, by placing on the right-hand margin the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5112, deposition of H. L. Mayo." I'm signing my name and ask you to sign your name.

Mr. MAYO. What is this right here [indicating]?

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to read it first. That's right.

Mr. MAYO. Do you want me to sign this? I talked to Mr. Wilkinson----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. As far as you know, then, the contents of the documents marked 5111 and 5112, are correct reports of interviews to which they relate?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that I am not taking out of the bound volume, Commission Document 81-A, page 70, the signed statement by Mr. Mayo. Mr. Mayo, do you have anything more to add? Anything new that has not been brought up in either this deposition or these two Exhibits, 5111 and 5112?

Mr. MAYO. Well, could you cut this off a minute and let's talk about it and see?

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that Mr. Mayo wanted to acquaint me with the general nature of another matter, but that after he had spoken a few sentences, it became apparent to me that it should be a matter of record, so, I will ask you now, Mr. Mayo, just simply to repeat what you have said to me in the last few sentences off the record.

Mr. MAYO. The first individual that tried to gain entrance into the basement said that he was a minister and he had a small book in his hand and I asked him what his business was. He said he wanted to go see Lee Harvey Oswald, that he was a friend of his, a minister that was supposed to help him, and he needed him, and he needed to go down there, and I told him "No, he could not enter without"--now, that is when I was on the Commerce Street side, and he hung around the entrance for some 20 minutes, I think, and he kept looking in the basement and acted very peculiar, but finally he left within about 20 minutes. He was tall, skinny, looked like over 6 feet tall, and looked like he was a man between 55 and 60.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. MAYO. He had on a suit. I don't recall the color of it, but it was just a suit, business suit with a necktie.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; he had a hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And a coat?

Mr. MAYO. I--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. A top coat?

Mr. MAYO. I don't believe that he had on----

Mr. HUBERT. Regular coat, suit coat, not an overcoat?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you reported the fact to the----

Mr. MAYO. I mentioned that to Jack Revill, and they said, well, it was probably just like lots of people trying to gain entrance. They didn't think it had much value.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested that it be left out of your report?

Mr. MAYO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else?

Mr. MAYO. When I changed positions--stations, and went from Commerce Street to the Main Street side, about 10 minutes after Oswald had been placed in the ambulance, I cleared the way for them to get out of the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MAYO. I went to the other side, and a large gentleman, well, he was slightly bald, weighed over 200 pounds, and walked with a limp. He came up to me and then said that he was a roommate of Jack Ruby, and that he wanted to go down and talk to him. And I told him he could not enter. I asked him what was the nature of his business and he said that Mr. Ruby had quite a sum of money on his person and he wanted to go down there and see if he wanted him to handle it for him. I told him he couldn't go down and he stayed up around there about 20 or 30 minutes, and finally went on down Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you his name?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't ask him his name. He didn't give me his name. I told him he couldn't enter--and he walked with a limp. I remember that. He was a large fellow. Had no tie on and slightly bald. No hat on.

Mr. HUBERT. And he claimed to be a roommate of Jack Ruby?

Mr. MAYO. Jack Ruby; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe him otherwise, his hair, his height----

Mr. MAYO. I'd say he was over 6 feet tall, and much heavier than I am.

Mr. HUBERT. You have given all that information, I think. Did he have a coat on?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; he had no coat on.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a shirt?

Mr. MAYO. Just a shirt, heavy shirt and no tie on.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave that information to Jack Revill?

Mr. MAYO. I mentioned it to him and he said, well, just probably somebody knew him and trying to use an excuse to get in, so, he didn't feel like it was--it is my opinion it might be this fellow Senator that we have been hearing about. I don't know how you spell his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you estimate what time it was that this man, the heavy man, tried to get in to see Jack Ruby through the Main Street entrance?

Mr. MAYO. Sir, I would only have to estimate it at, I would say, around 11:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, anything else that you mentioned to Revill that was not put down?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. I mentioned about the tourists. That is a man and a woman that hung around the entrance on the Main Street side and said they were just passing through Dallas, and they lived in Springfield, Ill., I believe they said, and they wanted to take some pictures, and they kept hanging around the entrance and they did take a few pictures and finally left. I don't know if they are connected with it or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, you mentioned that episode to Jack Revill and he also was of the opinion that it was not important?

Mr. MAYO. Minor, minor.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other things then?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. While I was on the Commerce Street side I had a Ford Fairlane car that came up about three times with two men in the front seat, and each time they would stop and ask me if he had come down--"What's happening?" I wondered then--now, I didn't mention that to Revill, because I didn't think about it at the time, but I wondered since then if they had some connection with this----

Mr. HUBERT. You did not mention that to Revill?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you didn't take the license number?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; it was just routine to me. They kept coming by.

Mr. HUBERT. And how many times did they pass you, do you know?

Mr. MAYO. Third time----

Mr. HUBERT. You saw them three times? Three times they came down Commerce?

Mr. MAYO. Came down--Commerce is one way going east, and they came down on my side and they slowed down and stopped and asked me, "Has he come down? Is anything happening?" And I would motion them on, because my job was to keep the street open.

Mr. HUBERT. And that happened three times?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And after the third time, what happened? Is that when the shot was fired or something, or you didn't see them any more or----

Mr. MAYO. After--I didn't hear the shot, but the hustle and bustle and noise in the basement, I looked down there and the men and all going around and around. Everything--and I heard a little radio from a pedestrian that said that Oswald had been shot, broadcast, and just about that time, I saw them going down Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "them," you mean the two men in the Fairlane car?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir. They were just a little past the entrance when all this commotion started.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the third trip?

Mr. MAYO. That was the third trip down. I went on down--went downstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't notice whether it was a Texas license or not; or out of State?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't get a chance to see the license.

Mr. HUBERT. Ford Fairlane. Do you remember the color?

Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like it was a blue, or light color of some kind.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a sedan?

Mr. MAYO. It was a 4-door.

Mr. HUBERT. 4-door sedan? Hard top?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir; hard top.

Mr. HUBERT. What model, about? A new car? Could you give us some idea about the model?

Mr. MAYO. It was a late model car.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a 1964 model?

Mr. MAYO. No, no; it wasn't a 1964 model. If I was going to guess I would say a 1962 or 1963--one. That man was hatless and he had a high forehead.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't bald was he?

Mr. MAYO. I wouldn't say he was bald, just had a high forehead.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the driver?

Mr. MAYO. That was the driver.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. MAYO. He had on an old, old--looks like he had a heavy wool shirt like you wear in the winter, long sleeves.

Mr. HUBERT. Have a tie on?

Mr. MAYO. No tie.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was the shirt? Do you remember?

Mr. MAYO. The shirt--it was kind of checked color.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complected?

Mr. MAYO. He was dark complected.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man?

Mr. MAYO. I would guess in the forties, just by looking at him, and I have wondered since about his interest in it. Maybe just somebody that was inquisitive and wanted to see what was going on.

Mr. HUBERT. Could be. On the other hand we want to get all the facts, and that is a fact. What about the other man? Did you see him?

Mr. MAYO. I didn't pay much attention to him, because he was on the other side and I was dealing with the driver. It was a one-way street, and I was dealing with the driver over here and I didn't pay too much attention to the other man. I couldn't even describe him.

Mr. HUBERT. How close do you suppose you were to this man each time he drove up?

Mr. MAYO. Oh, I'd say 4 to 6 feet. See, my duty was to stand on the sidewalk and keep the overflow of people--we had about 200 people, and if I moved out, somebody on the sidewalk could go in behind me, and I didn't get too far from the entrance of the----

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to show you a set of pictures and ask if that man there--look at them all first before you answer--bears any resemblance at all to the man you saw?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was looking at the pictures of Curtis Lavern Crafard. What about the other man in the car? Did he look like this fellow?

Mr. MAYO. Sir, I wasn't close enough to make any identification or recognize him. He was on the other side and I wasn't able to.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there anything else that you want to state to us?

Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else, sir. It was all just--I'd say, a state of commotion and confusion when this happened, and I had people everywhere around me and I just assumed that they are curiosity seekers. Making various comments about the assassination of a President.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to identify these pictures a little further. The pictures that were shown to the witness were various views of a man by the name of Curtis Lavern Crafard, taken November 28, 1963, by the FBI, and forwarded to the Commission recently. All right, sir. Is there anything else that you want to state about anything we have been talking about?

Mr. MAYO. No; I can't think of anything else that would pertain to this in any way and my work there. I was just on duty that morning and doing the best I could, and I can't think of any other incident.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Well, let me ask you this: Have you ever been interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission at any time except, of course, with this deposition?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I've not been interviewed by you.

Mr. HUBERT. About a moment ago we went off the record. Have we covered, since we have been back on the record everything that you told me while we were off the record?

Mr. MAYO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. That is it. Thank you.

Mr. MAYO. I want to express my appreciation to you people. I think you have done a fine job about investigating this thing, and I'm very happy to cooperate with you. I hope that you are able to solve this thing out and get it straight out, because I still think in my mind there was something back of this, because too much confusion around these entrances, and I, personally want to express my appreciation to every one of you people.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "too much confusion"?

Mr. MAYO. Seemed to me like people standing around and looking around. I don't know. People are funny. I have been working a long time. They just move around.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean a lot of members of the public?

Mr. MAYO. Public; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But, let me clarify one thing, did your remark intend to say that the security methods weren't sufficient?

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; I think the security methods were very fine, but I just wondered why the curiosity. I still wonder in my own mind. I don't know. I wonder why so many people were down there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; well, I wanted to get that straight, because at first I thought your remark might be construed by someone as being critical of the security measures.

Mr. MAYO. No, sir; the security measures was, at this time, was very good.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. MAYO. Anything else?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; that's all.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER

The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 3:55 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will swear you in, Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. Before we do that, what are we doing here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are taking your deposition.

Mr. MILLER. I'd like to understand what we are doing here first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. I'll be happy to explain it to you. First of all so that we can get the record straight, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. And the Commission has been appointed under Executive Order 11130, issued November 29, 1963, by President Johnson, under joint resolution of Congress No. 137, to investigate the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the other circumstances that were attendant on these two offenses. Now, I have been authorized, under the rules of the Commission, to take your sworn deposition, and Chief Curry has a copy of that authorization. I will be happy to show it to you if you care to see it. Our particular interest in your testimony is to determine what facts you know about the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, but also to determine any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry which the Commission is authorized to go into. Now, you are here today because we have made a request from the General Counsel on the Commission staff, and pursuant to the rules adopted by the Commission, and we have made the request to Chief Curry. Now, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having this deposition taken, and if you would like that we would be happy to do that. We had presumed that probably the police officers would prefer to have the notice waived. You are also entitled to have an attorney present during this interrogation. Now, I have no objection in any way you want to handle this. I want you to be perfectly frank in telling us, because we have gone ahead, as I said, simply on the assumption that you probably would prefer to waive these matters, but if you would like to have the written notice and would like to have a copy of the authorizing resolution, or would like to have an attorney present during this deposition we would be happy----

Mr. MILLER. No; I just want to understand what is going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question that you want to ask me about it? I have given you a general statement here.

Mr. MILLER. What will this deposition be used for?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this deposition will be made a part of the Commission's files. It will not be turned over to any member of the police department. These files will remain in the possession of the Commission, and on the basis of all of the investigation which we are conducting here, why, there will be a report written. Now, I can't tell you what is going to happen to the files after--and that means this deposition--after the Commission issues its report. I would like to be able to give you the assurance that it will be impossible for anybody to ever see this deposition. I can't, in honesty, tell you that, because I don't know that that is true. On the other hand, I don't know that it is not true, but basically, it will be used to write a report, and your testimony that you would give would be one of probably close to 250, maybe 500 depositions that are going to be taken during this period. I think 500 might be a pretty fair estimate, together with thousands, and probably approaching ten thousand pages of investigative reports and other documents also in addition to all these investigative reports. That is where it is all going to wind up. But, I can assure you of this: That no copies of this are going to be turned over to any member of the police department or any official of the State of Texas as such. Now, whether or not the thing will be accessible because they are all deposited in the archives, and years from now somebody could go and look at them, I don't know the answers to that.

Mr. MILLER. Well, is what you want from me a statement of what happened down there? Is that what you are getting at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but let me tell you this, too, that if you feel that you would prefer to talk about this thing off the record and that you think you would have important information to give us that you prefer to be kept--to have some assurances that your confidences would be kept completely, I would be happy to defer this deposition and do it in such a way that no one would know the reason for it, and I would check with our people in Washington to see if there weren't some arrangements which could be made for it, because we are most concerned with getting the truth, and as much information--I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't tell the truth, that we all know, and I would appreciate if there were better circumstances under which we could do this. I would inquire into it and I would make this a matter of complete confidence between us.

Mr. MILLER. Well, there is nothing that I know that possibly a hundred other people don't know, so, that part don't bother me, but I don't understand coming down and giving a statement, that I am supposed to stand, and swearing, and all that part of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this is just as--I am sure you have testified before grand juries.

Mr. MILLER. I sure have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have been sworn when you testified there. Only they don't have a court reporter in the grand jury. I don't know about Texas, but in Ohio we don't have a court reporter present. I do have the feeling in talking to you that maybe you would like to do this under some other circumstances, and I would be happy to explore this.

Mr. MILLER. I understand that you want a statement from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I am going to examine you.

Mr. MILLER. And I'll be more than glad to tell anything I know about it, but I don't understand swearing in. This is not a court.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not a court in the sense that anybody is on trial, but it is a--let me explain this to you, that we have authority to administer the oath, and we have authority to punish for all consequences in violation of the oath. The contempt provision of the Federal Code applies to this proceeding. We also have authority--I don't have this authority personally, but there is a provision granted that we can grant immunity from prosecution. If you feel that there will be some evidence that you wouldn't want to give for one reason or another, we have authority to grant immunity from prosecution. I don't have that authority here, but--and I do want to make it clear that you can have a right to have an attorney present, and many of the witnesses do have attorneys. Now, on the other extreme, if you would like to have a public hearing, we will open the hearing up to the public, but we haven't done it as a matter of routine except upon request, because we thought that most people prefer not to have it conducted in public, but that has been done, and we can do that.

Mr. MILLER. I still don't understand the reason of it. Are you going to use this thing to try to prosecute me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. MILLER. What are you going to use it for?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have no authority to prosecute anyone except for perjury before the Commission. Now, we--our instructions are--let me get a copy of the resolutions. Let me suggest that we handle it this way. I have got a copy here of the resolutions, Executive order signed by President Johnson, and the joint resolutions of Congress. The rules of the Commission and a memorandum dated March 20, 1964, from Mr. Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the Commission authorizing Mr. Hubert and me to administer your oath and take your deposition. Now, I think that what I prefer to do here so that you can be sure what you want to do, and I don't want to put you under any pressure. Now, I would like to give you this and have you try to find another room out here and look at this, and read it over, and think about this and ponder it as long as you want, and I want to give you assurance that I am going to call another--I am going to call Officer Montgomery in here and proceed with him. I am not going to tell him that I have not completed your deposition or anything like that. I want to be sure that as far as anybody is concerned whatsoever, what has transpired here is completely routine so that any decision you make, I can give you as much assurance as possible----

Mr. MILLER. All I wanted to know is the purpose of the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. MILLER. And if I find out we can go on with it.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you go ahead and read this and let me go ahead with Montgomery, and if you want I will tell Montgomery that you went on.

Mr. MILLER. Well, now, do you want me to come back some more, or what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I'd like----

Mr. MILLER. What time is it now? It is 4:15. I am due at home at 4:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to take that away, and I think that maybe it would be better if you waited around. Could you call your wife and meet me back here at 5 o'clock, and why don't you wait for me in my office?

Mr. MILLER. Well, now, could we get on with the thing? I am trying to explain to you, I have got small kids be coming home from school and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Well, would you rather think about it and come back some----

Mr. MILLER. Well, if we can't take care of it today, I would like to come back tomorrow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can go ahead, you know. I want to make sure that you are satisfied in your own mind about everything before we start to ask any questions, and if you have any reservations or questions that I haven't answered I want you to look at those materials, and I would be happy to set it up for tomorrow if you would prefer to do it that way.

Mr. MILLER. I sure would.

Mt. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you--let's see, you would want to take that home with you, wouldn't you? Let me do this. Let's go back to our office and let me get the girl to Xerox off another copy of this.

Mr. MILLER. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let us set this up for 8:30. What time are you on duty tomorrow?

Mr. MILLER. 8.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the easiest way for you to handle it?

Mr. MILLER. You mean time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. Probably 9 o'clock would be the easiest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you come in at 9 o'clock then?

Mr. MILLER. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That's all.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS D. MILLER RESUMED

The testimony of Louis D. Miller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might state for the record and for your information, Mr. Ward, Mr. Miller, and I talked on the record a short while yesterday afternoon, and I don't believe that, when I was talking with him, that his name was entered into the record, so I think what you will have to do is get in touch with the court reporter--is it Iris Lennon or Leonard?--and find out from her just where that is so that these two different sections can appear together.

Before I ask you to be sworn, Mr. Miller, I want to ask you if there are any questions that I can--that you have of me, I can tell you anything further about the nature of the investigation that is going on here?

Mr. MILLER. No; and had you explained to me yesterday what kind of information you were taking, what it would be used for, anything at all about it before you started to swear me in, I believe we would have got a lot further yesterday than we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. MILLER. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. MILLER. Louis D. Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell that?

Mr. MILLER. [Spelling] L-o-u-i-s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Miller?

Mr. MILLER. 1231 Ravina Drive, Garland, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. MILLER. September 4, 1930.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. MILLER. City of Dallas Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MILLER. Since August 1955.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank in the department?

Mr. MILLER. Detective.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you assigned to any particular bureau?

Mr. MILLER. Juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. Since October of last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you before that?

Mr. MILLER. Radio patrol division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Whose platoon did you work on?

Mr. MILLER. The last platoon that I worked on was Captain Souter's.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I understand that you were off duty on Friday, November 22, is that right, of last year?

Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, yes, I was off the day the President was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the next day, Saturday, November the 23d, were you on duty or off duty that day?

Mr. MILLER. On Saturday, I should have worked. I don't remember specifically any particular incident that happened that day that would bring to my mind that I did work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any reason for you to think that you didn't work that day?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any records of any sort back at the police department or notes that you have maintained which would indicate whether or not you worked?

Mr. MILLER. There should be some, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of records would those be?

Mr. MILLER. Offenses that was assigned to me, prisoners handled.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you could, when you return to the police department, if you could check to see if those records are available and provide copies of them to us, or if you can't make the copies, why if you will provide us with the originals, why we will make the copy and return the originals to you. Would you be willing to do that?

Mr. MILLER. If I could. I would have to look through things that I have in my locker, a place there, and see if I have any there that were assigned to me on that date, otherwise it would be next to impossible, and see what prisoners I did handle.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you supposed to make a report at the end of the day as to your activities?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don't want you--I am not asking you to go through that and see what prisoners you handled if you can't find it readily, but it would be easy to find some record of whether you were on duty at all, wouldn't it?

Mr. MILLER. It would be marked in the duty book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, check that and let us know, and if you do have any notes that pertain to those days, I would appreciate that, also. All right. Now, do you have any recollection of when you first heard in any way that Lee Harvey Oswald might be moved to the Dallas County Jail?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't remember when I heard it or how I heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall coming to work Sunday morning on the 24th?

Mr. MILLER. I remember being at work. As to the time that I came to work, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time you usually report to work?

Mr. MILLER. I usually get in the office sometime between 7 and 7:30 and some days earlier than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any reason to think you arrived any later than 7:30----

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on it because I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ride to work when you come, take public transportation, or do you drive?

Mr. MILLER. I drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you drive in alone or with somebody else?

Mr. MILLER. I drive in alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Alone?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Sunday, do you recall whether you drove in alone or with somebody else?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall driving in at all that day, as far as that goes, but I am sure that I did, and I am sure I drove alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the early morning when you got to work on that Sunday?

Mr. MILLER. Nothing definite, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you report up to the third floor to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did when you got to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; nothing definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have some indefinite ideas of what happened up there?

Mr. MILLER. Well, I can tell you what I usually do when I come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this a usual day?

Mr. MILLER. As far as I was concerned, in my business, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the people who were on duty up there on Sunday morning?

Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Detective Goolsby, Detective Cutchshaw, [spelling] C-u-t--I believe he spells his name [spelling] C-u-t-c-h-a-w. I am not sure about that spelling. Detective Lowery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. MILLER. Cutchshaw, Lowery, Officer J. W. Harrison.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that "Blackie" Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; and Policewoman McLine [spelling] M-c-L-i-n-e.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Policewoman McLine attached to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The people that you have listed, is that the full staff of people who are on duty regularly at that time or are there other people also ordinarily who would be on duty?

Mr. MILLER. No; who is on duty would depend on the days off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any other people, whose names you might not recall, who were also on duty in the juvenile bureau that day?

Mr. MILLER. Captain Martin that day, the best that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him up in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of?

Mr. MILLER. No; that I can think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got up to the juvenile bureau that morning, did you talk to any of these people?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to up there?

Mr. MILLER. I probably talked to everybody that was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, were there television cameras on the third floor hallway?

Mr. MILLER. The best that I remember, there were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether or not those TV cameras were manned?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember definitely whether they were or not, but I don't believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us some sort of idea of how crowded the hallways, that hallway was, when you arrived for work in the morning?

Mr. MILLER. It wasn't crowded at all when I arrived at work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you been there before when it was more crowded than that?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Saturday, can you give us a description of what the status of that hallway was on Saturday?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any definite time or whether it was Saturday, but I had been in the hallway when it was almost impassable.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the police department on Friday at all?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand at the time that you remember this hallway being impassable was sometime before you arrived for work on Sunday?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have had to have been Saturday?

Mr. MILLER. It probably was on Saturday, but I don't remember. I can't remember that it was definitely Saturday or any certain time on Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it would have been on Friday?

Mr. MILLER. No; it wasn't on Friday, because I didn't go near the police station on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were in the homicide or in the juvenile bureau on Sunday, did any newspaper people or radio or TV people come into the juvenile bureau for any purpose?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific ones coming in, but they were in and out, so I am sure they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was their purpose in coming in and out?

Mr. MILLER. They usually come in to use the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you people able to conduct your activities in the juvenile bureau with these newspaper people coming in and out?

Mr. MILLER. They didn't interfere with my business. As far as the other people assigned to the bureau, I don't know whether they interfered with them or not. I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were you transacting in the morning, Sunday morning?

Mr. MILLER. Just routine work is all I recall. If you would give me something definite to go on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you investigating any particular cases?

Mr. MILLER. At what time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went down to the basement.

Mr. MILLER. Prior to that time, an officer had brought in two small children, as I recall. I don't now remember what they were brought in for, but I was working them, doing the paper work on them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you got up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. That was later on in the morning, the best I remember, and I was working on the paperwork on them when I was told to report to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to bringing in those two children, did you talk with anybody in the juvenile bureau about the prospective move of Lee Harvey Oswald to the Dallas County Jail?

Mr. MILLER. I could have. I don't recall it, though. In fact, I didn't even know that--for sure that Oswald was still in our jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, you heard the newspaper reporters come in and out of the office, didn't you?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any specific incident of when they came in and out. Like I said, they probably did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear them talk on the telephone?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to them to hear what they were saying?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't try to hear them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you close enough to hear them if you had tried to hear them?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall it if I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in the juvenile bureau did you work that day?

Mr. MILLER. We have several desks up there, and it is possible that I worked at all of them some time during the day. I don't remember any particular desk or anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the juvenile bureau, is it one large room or does it have a series of rooms in it or what?

Mr. MILLER. It has several rooms, I would say. It has a reception office affair in front, and the captain's office is off of that, and then a short hallway, and the lieutenant's office, there is a holdover room for children, and then the main office, and then off of the main office we have two interrogation rooms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a desk in any one of those offices assigned to you?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the newspaper reporters, did they come into the main office on Sunday?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall any specific incident where they came in, but I feel sure that they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you work at any time out in the front office or the reception area?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall whether I did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were requested to go down into the basement?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is your best estimate of when that was?

Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got this request, had you been down in the basement that day?

Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I had, but I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were asked to prepare a report of your activities on the 24th, isn't that right, the police department?

Mr. MILLER. I was asked to write a letter and put in the information of what position I was in down in the basement at the time Oswald was shot and things of that nature, not everything that I did that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you requested to make this report?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember what day it was. I don't believe it was on that Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do when you were asked to make out the report?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instructed you to make out the report?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall who that was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was it just a general announcement that was made by one of the chiefs or did somebody in particular approach you?

Mr. MILLER. It was probably someone in particular, but I don't recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss this report with anybody before you made it?

Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't recall it if I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it on the 24th that asked you to go down into the basement?

Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, it was kind of a general announcement. Who came up and requested or ordered, or however you wanted to put it, all of the men to go to the basement, I don't know who that was. As I say, I was working the papers, typing. I had my----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working at that time?

Mr. MILLER. I was working in the main office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who was in the main office with you at that time?

Mr. MILLER. Well, since we had been instructed early in the morning to remain in the office until further notice, I would have to assume that all of the people assigned up there for that day were present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody who was there?

Mr. MILLER. The only one that I can recall specifically is Policewoman McLine, because after this announcement, request, order, whatever it was, was made for us to go to the basement, I asked her if she would finish the paperwork on the two small children for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Officer Lowery was still there?

Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer McMillon?

Mr. MILLER. Officer McMillon doesn't work out of our office, so I am sure he wasn't there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison works out of our office, and he was on duty that day, but as far as remembering it, anyone other than Policewoman McLine in particular, I couldn't do it, because I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what did you do--well, this person who came into your--who requested that you go down, did that person actually walk into the juvenile bureau office?

Mr. MILLER. I don't know, because I didn't see him and I didn't hear him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, who told you? Who did you hear the request from to go down?

Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine, I believe it was, the best I remember, said something about all men have to go to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at that point, did you walk down to the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I walked down the hall and caught the elevator to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down with anybody?

Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, the elevator was full. As far as remembering any one particular person that was on the elevator, I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk out of the juvenile bureau with anybody?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but I don't recall any particular person that I walked out with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how many people you walked out with?

Mr. MILLER. I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Officer McLine, Policewoman McLine, told you that you were supposed to go to the basement, what did she say?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall her specific words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why you were supposed to go down?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of why you were to go down?

Mr. MILLER. No; I can't say that I actually did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you walked down to the basement, did you look into the homicide bureau?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall looking in there; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the basement, where did you go?

Mr. MILLER. The best I recall, I was standing outside of the windows there in the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you got off the elevator, what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. Walked over to this hallway where the windows and telephones there are in the basement outside of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet anybody down there when you got off of the elevators before you got to that window, did you meet anybody down there?

Mr. MILLER. No particular person that I recall, although there were several people there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive any instructions from anybody before you went to this particular station that you mentioned?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know to walk over there?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to walk there?

Mr. MILLER. There was no particular reason.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was this before Lee Harvey Oswald came down?

Mr. MILLER. I don't recall how long. It would be hard to estimate it. It could have been 10 minutes or it could have been longer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have got another witness out here, Mr. Ward, and I think maybe it might be well to take a break here a second. I want to talk to this man.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller and I have been talking here for a few minutes off of the record about some of the events prior to his going down into the basement.

Now, as I understand it, Mr. Miller, shortly after you got into the office on Sunday morning, you went some place for some coffee?

Mr. MILLER. I went to the Deluxe Diner on Commerce Street and had breakfast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you go over there with?

Mr. MILLER. Officer Harrison.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time of the morning was that?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember a definite time, but it was probably somewhere shortly after 8 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did anybody else go over there with you besides Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This a place that you regularly go?

Mr. MILLER. No; not regularly. Occasionally, we go over for a sandwich or we phone for sandwiches and take them up to the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you normally take a coffee break right after you go to work?

Mr. MILLER. Usually after we get our assignments in the morning, we take a coffee break and go to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive assignments this morning when you came in?

Mr. MILLER. I don't believe the deskman finished making assignments when we went over to coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the regular deskman?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. Usually we have a regular deskman, except his day off, and on his days off, everyone takes a turn rotating working at the desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. What was the name of the deskman that day?

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, Detective Goolsby was on the desk that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where was this located on Commerce Street, this diner?

Mr. MILLER. It is in the 2000 block, I believe it is, almost directly across the street from the Statler Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many blocks would that be west of the police department?

Mr. MILLER. That would be in the first block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went in there that morning, were you in uniform?

Mr. MILLER. No. I never wear a uniform.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the people who worked at that diner?

Mr. MILLER. Only when I see them. Now, I know a colored boy's over there first name. It is Jimmy, I believe, but I couldn't be definite on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he in there on that day?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember just exactly who it was on duty. There is usually three or four working over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you went in there, did they have counters and--did they have a counter and tables and booths?

Mr. MILLER. It is just a counter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many people were working behind the counter that day?

Mr. MILLER. It would be hard to say. Like I was telling you a while ago, there was usually maybe two, maybe four. It all depends on the amount of business they expect, I suppose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go in there often enough so that you were familiar with any of the people waiting behind that counter although you might not have known them by name but you would recognize them and they would recognize you?

Mr. MILLER. I don't think so. I doubt if I have been in there over a half dozen times at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison know any of the people in there?

Mr. MILLER. I believe he did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you can't--I don't expect you to be a thousand percent accurate on this, but do you have any idea which of the people in there that he knew?

Mr. MILLER. No. I have been over there with Officer Harrison, and he usually speaks to, like this one colored boy, and I believe his name is Jimmy or Tommy or something like that. I couldn't be sure on that, but usually speak to him. And when we call up for sandwiches, Officer Harrison has called up there once or twice to have them make sandwiches and pick them up, and he usually asks for this one particular boy over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who suggested going over there for coffee that morning?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether Officer Harrison did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, who suggested going out for coffee?

Mr. MILLER. Like I say, I don't remember whether I did or whether he did. It would be hard to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either you or Officer Harrison ask anybody else in the juvenile bureau to go out for coffee with you?

Mr. MILLER. We probably did, but I don't remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got over there, how long did you stay at the diner?

Mr. MILLER. Probably around 30 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--what did you and Officer Harrison talk about over there?

Mr. MILLER. Now, I couldn't say. Couldn't say we talked about any one thing in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the investigation of Oswald?

Mr. MILLER. We could have or we could have talked about Officer Harrison's rabbit dogs or fishing or numerous things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. MILLER. It is possible that we did, but as far as being definite on it; I couldn't be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody else over there?

Mr. MILLER. No one that I recall; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--did either of you receive a telephone call over there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who received the telephone call?

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, when the person that works there at the diner answered the phone, he said, "Phoned for one of you," Officer Harrison answered it and came back to the counter and said we were to come back to the office as soon as we finished eating and were to remain there until further notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who made the telephone call?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; he never did, and I never did ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether it was somebody from the police department that made that call?

Mr. MILLER. I presumed it was, but like I say, I never did ask Officer Harrison who it was, and that would be the only ones that would be likely to order us to return to the office and stay there until further notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back to the office, did you have some idea of why you were supposed to remain back there until further notice?

Mr. MILLER. No; I couldn't say that I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison talk to you at all that day about Jack Ruby?

Mr. MILLER. You mean prior to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time.

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't think so. I couldn't be definite on that, either, but I am sure he didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald that Officer Harrison knew Jack Ruby?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Officer Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. I have probably seen him around the police department ever since I have been here. As far as actually knowing the man, I didn't up until the time I went to work up in the juvenile bureau in October.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever, prior to the time that Ruby shot Oswald, had you ever gone any place socially with Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. No. The best I remember, when I first came to work down here, Officer Harrison was riding a motorcycle and I worked in radio patrol, and the only time you can probably see each other would be passing, maybe down in the locker room, something like that, and then he did work out at the pistol range for a while, and when I would go to the pistol range, I would see him out there, but as far as talking to him or going any place with him, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any business enterprises with him?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him any way other than in the capacity as a fellow police officer?

Mr. MILLER. That is the only way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anything else happen before you went down into the basement on Sunday morning that you can remember?

Mr. MILLER. I can remember those 2 children that were brought in and working--I remember working on the papers pertaining to them and I remember asking Policewoman McLine, after we had been told to go to the basement, if she would finish the papers for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that happened or anything else that was said?

Mr. MILLER. That is prior to going to the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk with Officer Harrison?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did. In fact, after this was all over up there, I rode out to Love Field with Officer Harrison, so I am sure I did talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to him about what had happened there in the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he saw Ruby at any time before Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about how Ruby got down into the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure we discussed it; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about that?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember anything definite, but I believe that more than likely everybody up there was wondering how he got down in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, immediately after Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, at the time that this happened, I was walking or trying to walk down towards the corridor for cars to go through in behind of the officers and Oswald when they came out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to know what you did after Ruby was shot.

Mr. MILLER. After Ruby was shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; or Oswald was shot.

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, someone, seemed like, hit Ruby from behind and pushed him forward. Like I said, I was trying to move that way when this happened, so I grabbed a hold of Ruby and helped take him into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--were you with Ruby in the jail office when there were a lot of officers around him?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby put up any sort of a struggle there in the jail office?

Mr. MILLER. No; none that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you--did you have physical hold of Ruby in the jail office?

Mr. MILLER. When we got into the jail office; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Ruby say anything?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say?

Mr. MILLER. As to definite words, I could give you what he said as best I remember it, but it may not be his exact words. It could be that he put some more words in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, he said something about--well, first off, somebody asked, "Who is he?" And he said, "Oh, hell! You guys know me. I am Jack Ruby." And the best I remember, he said something about, "I hope the son of a bitch dies," and something about, "It will save you guys a lot of trouble," or, "It will save everybody a lot of trouble," something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who it was that said, "Who is it?"

Mr. MILLER. No; I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything else that was said while Ruby was there in the jail office?

Mr. MILLER. No; because right after that he was moved over to the jail elevator and was being taken upstairs, and I went out in the basement, the garage part of the basement, again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was Ruby searched in the jail office while you were there?

Mr. MILLER. A quick search, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A pat-down?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his pockets emptied?

Mr. MILLER. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, because the best I remember it, about the time he was being taken over to the elevator or shortly after, the ambulance came in and picked Oswald up, and I went back out into the basement to help try to keep this crowd of reporters or photographers and what-not out of the way so that they could get the ambulance in and Oswald loaded into it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain out there in the basement area assisting with the photographers?

Mr. MILLER. I would say maybe 45 minutes to an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you there when Officer Dean was interviewed on television?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember Officer Dean being interviewed; no. After the ambulance got out, I went up to the ramp on the Commerce Street side. There were several people up there who claimed to be reporters and photographers and what-not trying to get down into the basement and trying to force their way in, and I went up to assist with that problem.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from the time that Ruby was taken upstairs and all of the time you were down there in the basement, did you talk with anybody about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but I don't--like I say, I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any rumors that you heard at that time about how he got in?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any rumors circulated at that time as to how he got in?

Mr. MILLER. There was one that I remember, that he might have been--came in helping a crew with a television camera that came from the basement proper there out into the garage part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear that rumor while you were down in the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I believe I did, but I couldn't be definite about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Officer Harrison stay down there in the basement with you?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't believe he did. Now, he could have, but I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer McMillon?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't--I don't remember seeing Officer McMillon in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Lowery?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished down there in the basement?

Mr. MILLER. Well, after things quieted down up there at the Commerce Street side, I went back up to the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do up there in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite about it. I probably worked on some reports, but as to definite----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody up there about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but as far as remembering any particular person that I talked to or how it was discussed, I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the juvenile bureau when you got back?

Mr. MILLER. Policewoman McLine is the only one that I could say that was definitely there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Officer Harrison at that time?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery?

Mr. MILLER. I don't know where they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when was the first time that you saw Officer Harrison after the shooting?

Mr. MILLER. It was later, but as to giving you a definite time on it from the time that this happened until we came back up to the office, it would be hard to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you first see him?

Mr. MILLER. Back in the office, I believe, the best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw him?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember any particular thing that we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain up in the office?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the biggest part of the day. Captain Jones, I believe it was, came down and told me to remain in the office until further notice again, that I was to remain there until further notice, and then--let's see--someone else came down shortly after that and had me go down to the chief's office. I went down there, and Captain Jones told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and remain until he called for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you wanted for in the chief's office?

Mr. MILLER. No one ever said, and apparently it was a mixup in the orders there, or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually talk with Jones when you got down there to the chief's office?

Mr. MILLER. Only that he told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and wait until he notified me, that he had an assignment for me and he was going to notify me what it was later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did you remain back in the juvenile office?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say definitely. I know later on that afternoon, I believe it was Officer Harrison and Detectives Cutchshaw and Lowery, the best I remember, and myself, were called down to the chief's office and given an assignment, but what time it was, a definite time, I presume it would have been around 4 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who gave you the assignment?

Mr. MILLER. Chief Stevenson, the best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you sent to?

Mr. MILLER. I was sent to Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the four of you all go out to Love Field?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to do out there at Love Field?

Mr. MILLER. We were to check around the American Airlines ticket office and watch proceedings around there, around the ticket counter, out there around the American Airlines ticket counter, the best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for?

Mr. MILLER. Well, after we had left the chief's office, we started out to Love Field, and Captain Martin called us back into the basement, and, the best I remember, he told us that Mayor Cabell had been scheduled to go to Washington, or some place, on an airplane, and they had had a call that there had been a bomb placed on the plane or was going to be a bomb placed on it, or something of that nature, and I believe it was because of this that we were sent out to American Airlines, and my understanding is that the mayor was supposed to have left on a Braniff plane and changed it and left on an American Airlines plane later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you looking for around the American Airlines office?

Mr. MILLER. Anyone that might have been carrying a gun or a bomb or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a description of anyone in particular to look for?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you all talk about on the way out there in the car?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure we talked about this shooting. Again, I couldn't be definite on it. Like I say, I am sure everybody in the department was talking about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear in the car about how Ruby was shot, how Oswald was shot?

Mr. MILLER. You mean--well. Officer Harrison and myself were in one car and Detectives Lowery and Cutchshaw in another car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear--what did you hear from Harrison as to how----

Mr. MILLER. Again, I couldn't be definite on any part of the conversation. Like I say, I am sure we discussed the thing and talked about it, but as to any definite words, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, there are various rumors that have circulated about how Ruby got into the basement, and I am sure you are familiar with all of them.

Mr. MILLER. Well, now----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which of the rumors did you discuss in the automobile that you can remember?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, the only rumor I had heard up until that time had been the one that Ruby had come in with this camera crew. Again, I can't be definite, but I believe it was on Monday, the following day, that I heard this rumor, whatever it was, that he had entered off----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Main Street ramp?

Mr. MILLER. The Main Street ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out there--when you saw Cutchshaw and Lowery out there at the American Airlines, did you discuss with them this rumor about coming in with the camera?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure we did, but again I couldn't--any definite words that were said or anything like that, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody in that group saying that he saw a man come by with a camera?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the best I remember, Detective Lowery, I believe it was, said something about this camera coming by, and I vaguely remember the camera coming by myself, but as far as a number of men and who they were that were bringing this camera in, again I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Harrison? Did he indicate at that time that he remembered the camera?

Mr. MILLER. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Lowery was the only one that you can remember talking about the camera, having seen this camera come by?

Mr. MILLER. He is the only one that I recall, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else you want to tell us about the events of Sunday, November 24th?

Mr. MILLER. Well, I don't remember anything that I could tell. If I was asked a question on it and knew the answer on it, I would be more than glad to answer the question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any rumors concerning anyone who might have seen Ruby down in the basement prior to the shooting of Oswald? (Pause) Is your answer "No"?

Mr. MILLER. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell me. Were you down in the basement when Rio Pierce's car drove out of the basement?

Mr. MILLER. I remember a car driving out, which would be the wrong way up towards Main Street, but as far as remembering who was driving the car, I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing when that car drove out?

Mr. MILLER. I was standing by the door to the jail office, the door that comes out into the garage portion of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who stationed you there?

Mr. MILLER. Nobody. Like I was telling you before, we were out in this hallway, windows, jail office. Someone that was already out in the garage part of the basement, I presume, passed back instructions for everybody to go out and line up on both sides of this hallway affair that comes out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you received those instructions?

Mr. MILLER. I was standing in this hallway outside of the jail office windows there. There is those double doors, swinging doors that come out into the garage portion of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the garage side of the swinging doors?

Mr. MILLER. No; in the basement proper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before Oswald came down?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't be definite on that, but it wasn't very long, possibly 10 minutes. I don't believe it could have been any longer than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, where did you go to?

Mr. MILLER. From the basement proper, after the orders was passed back to go outside and line up on both sides, I got on what would be the north side of this little hallway in the garage portion of the basement, where the ramp comes in, through the hallway that comes out there, I was on the north side of that and would be on the east side of the door that goes into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you keeping an eye out in the basement for people who might obstruct Oswald?

Mr. MILLER. Pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you keeping a look, a watch out, from your position for people who might try to obstruct Oswald?

Mr. MILLER. I was kind of watching the crowd and that, but as far as having a feeling that anything was going to happen or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were watching the crowd?

Mr. MILLER. As to orders to do any particular thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the crowd that you were watching?

Mr. MILLER. They were across the ramp that goes down through there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they up against the railing?

Mr. MILLER. Part of them were up against the railing, part of them, the best I remember, on the east side of the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about, were the people strung across the Main Street ramp from the direction of the jail house, the jail office, to the railing?

Mr. MILLER. The best I remember, there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, how many lines deep would you say there were of people along--crossing the Main Street ramp on the north side just before Oswald came out?

Mr. MILLER. I recall of people being there, but as to how many rows there were or a definite number of people, it would be hard to say. The only thing on that that I could say definitely was that there were people there, and as to how many, it would just be next to impossible to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as Pierce's car came out, what did you do? As Pierce's car came out of the garage, what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't do anything that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look at it?

Mr. MILLER. I remember seeing a car going out the wrong way up to Main Street, but as far as looking in the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch it go up the ramp?

Mr. MILLER. No; because once it passes this wall there, it passes out of view.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep an eye on the newsmen in that area as they re-formed?

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did, but looking over the crowd and everything, it would be hard not to see them re-form, or whatever you call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Blackie Harrison standing when Pierce's car went out?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't see Officer Harrison that I remember when this car drove out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Officer Harrison at any time down in the basement after you took your position along the north wall just outside of the jail office?

Mr. MILLER. It is possible that I did, but as far as remembering seeing him or saying anything to him after that, I couldn't say definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as Miller Exhibits 5013 and 5014. Now, Exhibit 5013 is a copy of a report made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin of an interview that they had with you on December 3, 1963, and Exhibit 5014 is a copy of a statement that you made or a letter that you addressed to Chief Curry on November 26, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Harvey Oswald." I am going to ask you to take these and go out into the other office and look them over and then let me know whether there are any additions, corrections, changes of any sort that you would want to make in those.

(Recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. For your purposes, Mr. Ward, may I say that we have Mr L. D. Miller back with us.

And have you had a chance to look over Exhibits 5013 and 5014?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your recollection, are those accurate reports of--looking at 5013, the FBI report, is that an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time?

Mr. MILLER. Well, there is part of it in here that is a little confusing. It could mean one thing and then it could mean another. Now----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you able to state from your memory whether that is an accurate report of what you told them at that time?

Mr. MILLER. There is one part in here. Let me find it. It was, when the officers were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down, there were officers stationed on both sides of the ramp. The officers that came down were stationed on both sides of the ramp. I don't recall telling the FBI that there were already officers stationed there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me see if there was some way you can mark that on there. Where is this?

Mr. MILLER. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take this, take my pen, and amend that so that it reflects what your best recollection is that you told them at that time?

Mr. MILLER. Let's see. Where do you want me to put it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can either write it down below----

Mr. MILLER. The whole thing would have to be reworded. This like this makes more sense to me what I told them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have written there, "The officers that were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down were stationed on both sides of the ramp." Were you present when the instructions were given to the officers generally as to where to go?

Mr. MILLER. To line up on both sides----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?

Mr. MILLER. Of the ramp area where Oswald was to be brought through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Were you present at that time?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who gave those instructions?

Mr. MILLER. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you were told to do, if anything, when Oswald got to you?

Mr. MILLER. I wasn't told what to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other corrections that you want to make in that?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. "Miller said he had no other pertinent information concerning the shooting of Oswald." I wasn't asked if I had any more information to give to them. I answered their questions, the questions they asked me. They did not ask me if I had any other pertinent information to add.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you change that on there, then, and state, cross that out, and put something through there and say, "I was not asked if I had pertinent information"? Now, did you in fact at that time have pertinent information, other than what they asked you about?

Mr. MILLER. None that I knew of. It is like now. It could be possible that you would ask me a question that I would remember something other than what I have told you, but I wouldn't know what it would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other corrections that you want to make on this FBI report?

Mr. MILLER. Everything else on it looks like it is just about the way it should be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you, then, initial the corrections that you have made on here and date it?

Mr. MILLER. Where do you want it initialed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other place, right next to it. And will you initial the other correction, date it?

Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 5014, and is that a true and accurate copy of the letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November 26?

Mr. MILLER. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that letter and date it, sign the piece of paper somewhere down there near the bottom and date it, and would you sign over here on Exhibit 5013, the point where I identified the document, would you write, sign your name, and date it?

Now, let me ask you one final thing. I take it that you have told us everything at this time that you can remember about the events that I have questioned you about?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have mentioned everything to us at this point that you can remember which you think is pertinent to our investigation?

Mr. MILLER. Everything that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anything else in the future comes to your attention that you think might be pertinent to this investigation, would you come forward and tell us about it?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; sure will.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. MILLER. Do you want me to call you, if I check, bring the book up to the office?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. I am sure I did work that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, bring the book to us.

Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't be allowed to bring the book out of the office. It carries the duties time. Everybody's name is in the same book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, call us and let us know the pertinent details.

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN

The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 11 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Newman, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson on November 29th, 1963, and under a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. The Commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. Pursuant to those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition.

I want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the inquiry is. Of course, this was set up, as you know, after President Kennedy was assassinated and Lee Oswald died. Our instructions are to investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the murder of Lee Oswald.

Now, that includes going into the background of Oswald and Ruby, their associations and their motives anything that you can think of about them. We have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. We are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody except for perjury.

The most important motivating force, I think, in this investigation is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any possibility that there was more than one person involved with either one of these two men.

Now, we have asked you to appear here primarily to develop facts in connection with the murder of Oswald, but if you have any sort of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our investigation, we would like to have it.

Now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue of a general request which was made by the General Counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry, a letter was sent to Chief Curry and a whole list of names was on that letter, and we indicated that we were going to examine these people. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3-day written notice personally from the Commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. However, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and others don't. It doesn't make any difference to us, but I would ask you now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether you are willing to waive the written notice?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I will be willing to waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I notice that you don't have an attorney here, and that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in Dallas, and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a more convenient time.

Do you want an attorney?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NEWMAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. NEWMAN. William J. Newman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Newman?

Mr. NEWMAN. January 31, 1937.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. NEWMAN. My street address?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. NEWMAN. 10923 Cotillion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cotillion?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Nods head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what's your occupation?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am a mechanical engineer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. NEWMAN. Ling-Temco-Vought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ling-Temco--L-i-n--[spelling]?

Mr. NEWMAN. L-i-n-g T-e-m-c-o V-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. Three words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you also a member of the Dallas Police Reserve?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a member of the police reserve?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, 18 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you, are you a graduate engineer?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years of education have you had?

Mr. NEWMAN. I had a year and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college?

Mr. NEWMAN. College education.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you attend college?

Mr. NEWMAN. Arlington State.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that at Arlington, Tex.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right here in the general area of Dallas?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; it's midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of courses did you take at Arlington State?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just general engineering courses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed at Ling-Temco-Vought?

Mr. NEWMAN. About 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, can you tell us something about the nature of your duties with your employer?

Mr. NEWMAN. I'm a design engineer and lead man. I am responsible for four or five draftsmen on a given project.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of things do you do?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you put things on drawing boards?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you work from plans that other people draw up or plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up with ideas?

Mr. NEWMAN. I work from an electrical schematic, and I am responsible for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make sure this work is carried out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you go through a training program before you became a member of the police reserves?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that training program?

Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did you go to school?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was 2 hours a night, 1 night a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any compensation in connection with your services on the police reserves?

Mr. NEWMAN. None whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, civic responsibility, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any little side benefits of any sort?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, yes. You mean in the way of favors, this type of thing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't know, not necessarily that, but what----

Mr. NEWMAN. I enjoy it because I do office work, indoors, and this is a way of getting out, little something to break the routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there favors and what not that you can get on account of this?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic violation, I don't know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, and found out that he was making a mistake. Maybe I am a great skeptic.

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, it's like I say, in my case I have always been interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say this, I finished interviewing Captain Arnett, and I found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis of my experience, I don't have any reason to make these comments. Now, were you on duty with the reserves the day President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was that evening. That was some 6 or 7 hours after the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What time did you come on duty Friday evening?

Mr. NEWMAN. 7 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got to the police station, who did you report to?

Mr. NEWMAN. To Lieutenant Merrell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you then assigned?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was then assigned to ride observation with the Radio Patrol Squad 113.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did riding observation consist of?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this is our normal assignment. We don't normally take part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were riding around in the district someplace?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for other duties?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, it didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have had to come in on Friday night anyhow?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday night, on Saturday, were you at the police department?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; none at all Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Sunday, did you come in?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, how did you happen to get called in on Sunday?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was called by Sergeant Sullivan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time do you believe Lieutenant Merrell called you?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was approximately 8:30 or 9 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix that time?

Mr. NEWMAN. I just say--I suppose it took me approximately an hour to get down there and I arrived about 9:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were called in the morning?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 8:30 or 9 in the morning?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, had you heard anything about the possibility of moving Lee Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I knew he would be, of course, but I didn't know what time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, on Friday night, were you on the third floor at all?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; not at any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you came in on Sunday where you parked your automobile?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I parked it across the street from the police garage on Canton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On what street?

Mr. NEWMAN. On Canton, C-a-n-t-o-n [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, is that north, south, east, or west of the----

Mr. NEWMAN. It's immediately south of the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far from Commerce Street; how many blocks from Commerce Street?

Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, I think it's 3 blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is a police garage there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you walk up Harwood?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what entrance you entered?

Mr. NEWMAN. I entered Commerce Street door that leads into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any recollection of whether there were any TV wires strung through there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; there was a large van parked on Commerce Street, on the corner of Commerce and Harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. I don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. There might have been, possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any TV cables coming down the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not to my recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you spent some time after you were placed on duty over in the garage area?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as I understand it, close to Commerce Street?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that general area?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, the first thing, when I first got there, I was assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to get to that. I am going to go a little backwards on this.

Mr. NEWMAN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to get the questioning. Where you were finally stationed prior to the time Oswald was shot, was that near the entrance, the doorway to the engineroom?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to get a map, diagram here, and I would like for you to try to think back to that. I am going to mark this Newman Exhibit 5037. Now, Mr. Newman, this is a copy of the diagram of the basement area of the Police and Court Building in Dallas. I will try to explain it to you, and then if you have any questions, why, I will try to answer those. But you see in this area is the jail office, Harwood is off in this direction. There is Main, there is Commerce [indicating]. Now, this dotted line here running parallel to Commerce Street is actually the outside wall above ground level, and here would be Commerce Street, if you were at ground level, here would be the sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. However, when you are in the basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement wall is this solid black line over here, and I presume that that's true, although I have never checked it myself.

Mr. NEWMAN. It looks to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do--these other black marks around here represent posts [indicating]. Now, would you indicate on this diagram where it was that you were stationed by--well, where it was you were stationed in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of the basement?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was placed right at the place of this column. There is what this is, isn't it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. Do you want me to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just an "X" there [indicating]. Now, as you were standing there, do you remember whether any TV cables ran through that general area?

Mr. NEWMAN. There were none there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were none. Were there any TV cables that you could see in the garage area?

Mr. NEWMAN. By the garage area, you are talking about this area here [indicating]? I didn't see any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." Are you familiar with--is there a door over in that area?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not a door as such. I don't believe it can be closed. It's just an opening there [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an opening?

Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can walk into the engineroom there?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. Actually walk--in fact, I didn't even know it was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and then down. The engineroom is some 5 or 10 feet lower than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stand in that general area all the time, from the time that Sergeant Dean placed you there until Oswald was shot?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; there was one time when I was called back into the assembly room, back over here. I think they needed some men somewhere else. They picked four or five men and then I was returned to this place [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would you estimate that you were pulled off this spot temporarily?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, it must have been 45 minutes to an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long were you away from the area?

Mr. NEWMAN. Five minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me mark on here pulled off for 5 minutes, 45 minutes to 1 hour before Oswald shot [indicating]. Did anybody replace you?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; they didn't--I better not make that statement. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to go back and pick things up from the time you entered.

Mr. NEWMAN. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the building?

Mr. NEWMAN. Approximately 9:30 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?

Mr. NEWMAN. I went to the assembly room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the assembly room?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on the roster.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lieutenant Merrell called you, did he tell you why you were to come down?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you?

Mr. NEWMAN. He said that Oswald was to be transferred at 10 o'clock, that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would need our help, or a crowd was gathering, I think is what--the way he had actually said it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his telling you the time would be 10 o'clock?

Mr. NEWMAN. I happened to remember it because I had to rush to get down there in time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything else?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; that was all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down there, did you receive any instructions from somebody?

Mr. NEWMAN. He and I walked out into the garage area there and we talked to some--to Sergeant Dean then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the search of the garage already begun when you arrived?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in connection with the search?

Mr. NEWMAN. I searched--well, we looked inside all the automobiles. We checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four of us working that area in there [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are talking now about the Commerce Street half of the garage?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did you do besides search the cars?

Mr. NEWMAN. That was it, until I was assigned to that post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see what Sergeant Dean did?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't. The only time I remember seeing him, they found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. I think it was later identified as belonging to one of the officers. I saw him walking out with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period you were standing there in the garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see, during the period that you were in the garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down--was brought down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't even know it was there. I couldn't see it from my location. Well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. It was just backed to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a time that you were aware there was an armored car up there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not until after the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing where you were standing was there anything that happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before Oswald was shot, that would be significant to fix the time?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; the only thing I can recall at all, there was a pop-type noise in that area there. I found out later, when they opened the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and broken. That caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of them went up the ramp to see what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember anything else before that that might be significant?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. Other than the movement of the cars and the men in there, I can't recall anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I am almost certain a car did leave after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw a car leave or more than one car?

Mr. NEWMAN. One is all I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that car parked, if you recall?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I am not too sure of that. I think it was parked in this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the map where you think that was? You want to mark car?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see that car move to?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if its the one I am thinking about, they turned and went out the Main Street side. I recall there was a car came in. I think it was a squad that had a prisoner. I don't recall it leaving. It may have. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you recall a car coming in, before or after that car went out?

Mr. NEWMAN. It must have been before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say must have been, because somebody has told you that a car went out there?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; but I am sure--I do recall this car left--oh, not over 5 or 10 minutes, if that long, before Oswald was brought in, and I do know that no other car left after that, or entered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the garage up behind the armored van?

Mr. NEWMAN. I recall one that was parked right here. I don't remember whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where that came from; where that car came from?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall, but I think it came from the parking area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't see it moved out of the parking area?

Mr. NEWMAN. If I did, I don't recall. I am sure I did, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Sergeant Dean placed you in the basement, did you recall where he placed any of the other men?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't. The only one I remember was there was a regular officer--I don't know who he was. He was in this approximate area here. Do you want me to mark this [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead. Why don't you put a "R" for regular?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there were any officers over here by elevators Nos. 1 and 2 and the service elevator?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, except he and I, immediately prior to the shooting. There was quite a few moving around through there before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before that were they moving around?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say an hour before that, they were moving in and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But let's take the 10 or 15 minutes before the shooting. Were there any men over by those elevators?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not except the one man. I assume that was his job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The one man you have marked here with an "R"?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to tell whether these elevators No. 1 and No. 2 were in operation?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; there is no way I had of knowing. I could see the elevators, but I don't know whether they were in operation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the hour that you were at your position?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator was in operation?

Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't know either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody in that service elevator?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state positively that there was nobody, during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't say that. I just say I couldn't see anyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did you see anybody come out of the engineroom area?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were stationed if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that engineroom there?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. I couldn't see if there was anybody in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in the 20 minutes or half hour before the shooting, how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any traffic in and out of that garage?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just that one squad, that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time that you heard that Coke bottle drop, where was your attention focused, from your position?

Mr. NEWMAN. At the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What were you looking at in there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, my main concern was this room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. NEWMAN. I was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you have got yourself, what direction you were facing?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was facing in this direction [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion at any time to look over in this area here [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not until immediately prior to the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What directed your attention over there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Someone yelled, "Here he comes." I believe, "Here they come," something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could hear that from over there?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the garage? Did you follow that automobile--did you watch and see where that automobile went?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not from the time it got on the ramp. I couldn't see but about two thirds of the ramp. I couldn't see the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after that automobile left, did you continue to watch over in that direction?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. There was nothing unusual about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, can you describe this area, in what I will call the entrance to the garage, describe how many people were in that area there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would estimate there were 40, 50, 60 people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there substantially more people in the area in the garageway than in the area along the Main Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; there were more people over in this area here, along this wall [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you estimate were over----

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, that's what I meant, I would say over 40 or 50, total. Out of that, I wouldn't think there were more than 5 or 10, if that many, in this area here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark down here the placement of the people in that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "Here he comes."

Mr. NEWMAN. You just want to know about this one area?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall specifically anyone being there at any particular place [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, over in this area, can you show me how they were placed over there [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. There was a group along this wall, there was a group over here that I could see [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what's your estimate of the number of people that were in this group?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, from what I could see, I would say maybe 20, just an estimate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put about 20 there?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many people would you estimate were over in this cluster that you have marked there [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. From what I could see, it appeared to be about the same number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About 20 there. And, how many deep were they?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I couldn't see that much detail. I could just tell there was a crowd of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over in here [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, if there were, they were very sparse. I would just say individually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don't you just write in there "sparse."

Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the TV cameras were placed?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate on that where the TV cameras were?

Mr. NEWMAN. As I recall, there were three.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you came into the basement the first time, did you see a TV camera over in this area here that I have pointed to [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not a large camera. There may have been a hand-held camera, but no large camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, I am pointing to the area roughly in front of the jail office door. For anyone reading this, I will indicate also that this is an area in which Assistant Chief Batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not sure of, in the early morning he saw a TV camera there, and he believes he had it moved. Now, I take it you don't recall any equipment of any sort being in this area in here, in the garage [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. TV equipment?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In the entrance to the garage?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. This is a small rail right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me write across here "rail." Now, from where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail?

Mr. NEWMAN. Partially.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How high is that rail?

Mr. NEWMAN. It isn't over 3 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a solid thing or is it a metal set----

Mr. NEWMAN. Just made of pipes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it any different from the railings that's along the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Same type railing, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Same type of railing. And the railing that's marked in solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief parking area, which I will also label rail, that's the same kind of railing as the ones over near the TV cameras?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, your vision from where you were standing was not substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to keep me from getting an overall view of the area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what do you recall happening after the automobile drove out of the drive and went up the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anything until I heard that "Here he comes," called out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard the "Here he comes"?

Mr. NEWMAN. I looked up in that direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see when you looked up in that direction?

Mr. NEWMAN. All I saw was the newsmen congregating to that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they seem to be pushing in from?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, they were making a round in this general area in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area up in the ramp, Main Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How deep were they in the Main Street ramp, by that time?

Mr. NEWMAN. I would guess two or three, but that's just a guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does that include policemen, also?

Mr. NEWMAN. You mean the number of people?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say the total number of people was two or three deep there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it solid across from this wall to the railing?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I couldn't see that much detail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard "Here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next thing that you remember seeing?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, like I said, I saw these people congregating to this area. I did see a man come down this ramp [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw a man come down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see him come down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was just immediately after that was called out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, I would say in about the location of this arrow [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put a mark there?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you see that man do?

Mr. NEWMAN. He just ran down in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or what?

Mr. NEWMAN. From the angle I was looking, I couldn't tell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that man--how that man was dressed?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see that man emerge?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move forward at Lee Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were standing here, could you see the areaway here [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I could because of the car that was parked here. I don't recall seeing the area. I don't recall not seeing it. I don't much think I could, though, because there was a car parked right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to mark this in pencil. Is that about where this car was [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. I would say it was just about that location [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's the way it appeared to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us anything about that area there [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. I do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am.

Mr. NEWMAN. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting."

Mr. NEWMAN. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; it wasn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see that car moved?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might possibly have been this car; I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came from, but you did see a car go up the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this car that moved through the line of newsman?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle?

Mr. NEWMAN. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I do know it was a short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. Newman," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. Newman, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired?

Mr. NEWMAN. As soon as I heard the shot fired, I ran up into this place [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think we need to mark it. You stood at the base of the garage ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me----

Mr. GRIFFIN. To make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to it, and then mark where this other fellow went. Why don't you put an arrow, so we know which direction we are moving?

Mr. NEWMAN. (Indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you remember what the name of that officer was?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do as you got up to that spot?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, he or I, neither one had anyway of knowing what had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he said, "Don't let anyone leave." There was a man came at me from this direction, running towards me. I stopped him [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Was he a newspaper man or what?

Mr. NEWMAN. He later told me he was a member of one of these camera crews.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do with him when you stopped him?

Mr. NEWMAN. We scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized I was a police officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. And as I recall, he said, "I am not trying to leave. I will stay with you. I just want to get away from there," or something to that effect. He didn't stand there but for a minute. Then he asked me if he could go back to the crew. I told him he could, but not to try to leave the building. I still didn't know what had happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he run off in that direction?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. There was a man crouched behind this column here [indicating]. I assumed, I still do, he was probably just trying to find some place to go. Those columns offered the most protection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that man?

Mr. NEWMAN. Until the ambulance arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe this man that you stopped?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I can't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn what TV crew he was from?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I moved up to the base of the Commerce ramp here. There was another officer in plain clothes here--some newsmen tried to follow the ambulance out and we stopped them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. That was a plain clothes officer, I think you said.

Mr. NEWMAN. I think we stopped him. He showed us his identification and he went on up the ramp. Not more than, oh, 2 or 3 minutes after that, I assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. I don't know that for a fact, but at any rate I was sent out on the corner of Main and Harwood to direct traffic. There were quite a few police units coming in from different parts of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out on the corner of Main and Harwood?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not over 10 minutes. A motorcycle officer relieved me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. NEWMAN. Then I returned to the assembly room and I was sent out to Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know exactly. From what happened, I would say 12:15 to 12:30, but that's just an approximation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain out there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was there until about 4:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody out there at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I talked to quite a few officers there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you stationed at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was right on the entrance where you turn into the hospital off of Harry Hines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what police officers you talked to?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any except Captain Solomon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody about having seen this man come down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; at the time I didn't place any significance on it, because I still didn't know what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any discussion about the name of the man who had shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not there. The officer who relieved me on the traffic detail there on the corner asked me if I knew it was Jack Ruby that had done it. That was all he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer that relieved you?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at 4 o'clock?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; it was at--oh, 12:15 or 12:30, on the corner of Harwood and Main.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you got to Parkland Hospital, you knew Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. I knew a man named Jack Ruby had shot him. The name didn't mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you relieve Officer Vaughn at the Main Street entrance?

Mr. NEWMAN. Right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you went to Main and Harwood?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right; I did. On the way back I did spend, oh, maybe 5 minutes here at this entrance [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?

Mr. NEWMAN. Directing traffic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Officer Vaughn there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall the officer's name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, did you tell anybody out there the name of the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of the officers who were out there at Parkland Hospital? By this, I mean reserve officers as well as regular officers?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall anyone by name except Captain Solomon. I haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these men. I know there were 5 reserves--or 4 others and myself, who were transported out there in the squad car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know any of the reserve officers by name, outside of Solomon?

Mr. NEWMAN. Oh, yes; I know them, but I don't know any of those people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had you ever worked before with any of the reserve officers who were out there?

Mr. NEWMAN. I had gone through school with one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?

Mr. NEWMAN. There again, I can't tell you his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe him?

Mr. NEWMAN. He was--I would know his name if I saw it. Oh, rather tall, I would say about 6'2", wavy black hair, medium built.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he wear glasses?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he does, where he is employed?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old is he?

Mr. NEWMAN. I guess late twenties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where he lives?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see this particular officer out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness nods head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. He relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so I could go get a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him about what had happened down there in the basement?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. The only thing I said, I just relayed to him the instructions I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a man coming down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that you did not tell anybody?

Mr. NEWMAN. I know I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you didn't tell anybody that. When did you first become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. When I was interviewed by Lieutenant Revill. It must have been the following Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you got off duty at Parkland Hospital, where did you go?

Mr. NEWMAN. I went back to the Police and Courts Building and was assigned on the second floor, security detail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Captain Talbert was?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know the gentleman. It was right outside of the city planning office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. Was this on the second floor of the municipal building?

Mr. NEWMAN. The Police and Courts Building. The city planning or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the jail part of the building?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. On the second floor, just to the right of the elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators there?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I was at the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you to be doing there at the stairway?

Mr. NEWMAN. My instructions were that no one was to be in there except press, police, and anyone who had a business. There were several civilians who came into the building. I recall one witness who, in accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. NEWMAN. Until about 8:30 p.m. About 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. NEWMAN. I was relieved and went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were there, did you talk to Sergeant Dean?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, no; but I didn't see Sergeant Dean the rest of the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before you left duty, did anybody from the police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like that?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were standing around there before you left duty, did you hear any rumors about how Jack Ruby got in the building? What was the first rumor that you heard about how Ruby got in the building?

Mr. NEWMAN. The first I heard was not over 2 weeks ago in an account in a newspaper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. It was not over 2 weeks ago in an account----

Mr. NEWMAN. An article. The first--anything I had heard, rumor or otherwise, as to how he got into the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean 2 weeks ago from today?

Mr. NEWMAN. During the trial, approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read any rumors in the newspaper?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, let me retract that. I do recall a statement that Ruby himself made. I don't remember when it was. It was sometime in the 4 months between the incident and the trial. I think he had boasted how easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take a daily newspaper?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take any news magazines?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Time?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Life?

Mr. NEWMAN. [Witness shakes head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read any magazines?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I read some magazines but no news magazines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, do you subscribe to any?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes. American Rifleman and Readers Digest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are the only two magazines you subscribe to?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you take both daily newspapers in town?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the Ruby killing of Oswald, after this event?

Mr. NEWMAN. I think I read just about every word that was printed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about how he got in?

Mr. NEWMAN. I won't say I didn't see it. I will say I don't recall it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall an article, for example, that was written about Sergeant Dean, where Sergeant Dean said, was quoted as saying he saw a man come down the Main Street ramp; do you recall that article?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't. The reason I remember so well is because this article I saw 2 weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. I had been curious all that time. I knew from what Lieutenant Leavelle told me, or from the remarks he made, that with the men with him there--he wasn't making the remarks to me, but I think, when I told him about this, he turned to the other men and said, "Well, that's it." That's the only information I heard. The police officers I worked with and so forth had been very shut mouth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first requested to make a statement or prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police department?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was the following Sunday, the week from the day of--the day Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. NEWMAN. First request?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Newman Exhibit No. 5038. Would you read that over [indicating]?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am going to have to back up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you signed and was addressed to Chief Curry and dated November 26, 1963. Did you prepare that letter?

Mr. NEWMAN. Let me think. The Tuesday night afterwards, Lieutenant Merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and return to him and I think I did it right there on the spot. It was a very vague type thing. When I say statement, I am talking about the statement that I did sign the following Sunday, where they had this information that I had given them typed in the form of a statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in this statement you indicated that you saw Lieutenant Stuets and Lieutenant Crowey--Sergeant Crowey, of the reserves in the same area you were in?

Mr. NEWMAN. I saw them that morning. They were not in the same area that I was in. I had seen them in the basement that morning. I don't have any idea where they were at the time. I happen to know now where Sergeant Crowey was, but I found that out later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Sergeant Crowey in the basement that morning?

Mr. NEWMAN. That I don't remember. It was sometime before the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by this statement in here that, "Names of other officers in the same area that I can't recollect." What do you mean by the same area?

Mr. NEWMAN. By the same area there I meant the basement proper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement do you remember seeing him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sergeant Crowey?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall any specific area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in the basement area did you recall seeing Stuets? Now, is Lieutenant Stuets or Sergeant Crowey, either one of them, this regular officer that you have got marked here with an "X"?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember?

Mr. NEWMAN. No. The way I took that question and the way I answered it, those are the only two officers I saw that morning in the basement whose names I did remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they help you search the basement?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't believe so. They have been searching in another area, but they weren't right with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Arnett that day?

Mr. NEWMAN. Let me try to--I know he was there, but I don't think I saw him. I may have seen him after the shooting. There was so much confusion then that I wasn't paying too much attention to who I was seeing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of an officer on the police force named Blackie Harrison?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Chief Batchelor when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't think I would. I have only seen the gentleman one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Butler when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Captain Jones when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Officer Lowery when you see him?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. NEWMAN. I would know one if I saw him. I don't know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Miller in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name of this guy in the juvenile bureau, if I gave you his name?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; as far as I know, I have never heard it. I have only been in there, I think, twice.

(Pause.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are a d--- l---. I want you to come back tomorrow night and I want you----I want to question you some more.

Mr. NEWMAN. I certainly don't appreciate that accusation. I have given you all I can, to the best of my memory, for 4 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to regard yourself as still under the obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having waived any notice here, and I would like to recess to continue this deposition until 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. If you would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like that, and would like to come in here with one, I would be most happy for you to do so.

Mr. NEWMAN. May I ask: What are you getting at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have been in here aren't telling the truth. Somehow I am going to see how the devil we can reconcile these differences.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. NEWMAN RESUMED

The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 4:08 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that at 4:08, March 26, 1964, the deposition of Mr. W. J. Newman, which was commenced last night with Mr. Burt W. Griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not completed last night, is now being resumed by Leon D. Hubert, Jr., staff member, conducting the deposition.

Mr. Newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you understand that you are under the same oath that you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the deposition?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you regard yourself as being under the same oath?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show, also, that I have been designated by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to take the sworn deposition of Mr. William J. Newman.

Mr. Newman, I simply want to mark for identification so that we will all know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them.

Now, I notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number that was used by Mr. Griffin was No. 5038, in connection with a letter dated November 26, or rather it is a copy of a letter dated November 26 addressed to J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, the original of which, apparently, signed W. J. Newman.

Since I do not know what sequence of the letters Mr. Griffin has used since he started your deposition, I am going to number the documents that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number 5038, adding the letters "A", "B", "C", etc., as far as we need to go. Now, in that connection, I am marking an undated statement--an undated document, I beg your pardon, undated document entitled "Statement of Police Reserve Officer William J. Newman." It is also unsigned. And it is to be found in the Commission Document 81-A point 79. For the purpose of identification, I am marking it "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibits 5038-A. Deposition of W. J. Newman." Sign my name below it. Then for the purposes of identification, also, I am marking a verifax or photostatic copy of "Officer's Memorandum dated December 6, 1963, to Lieutenant Revill, from Detective R. W. Westphal," which document is to be found in Commission Document 81-A point 79. And, I am marking that "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. That's Exhibit 5038-B. Deposition of W. J. Newman," and signing my name below on that document. Then the next document is a letter, or verifax or photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 31, 1963, to J. E. Curry, signed by Jack Revill, and C. C. Wallace, purporting to be a report on an interview by Reserve Officer W. J.--William J. Newman, No. 317, and for the purposes of identification I am marking that document "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5038-C." Continuing your identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5038-C. Deposition of W. J. Newman." I am signing my name on that document, which is also to be found in Commission Report--Commission Document No. 81-A point 79. Finally, I am marking what purports to be a copy of the report by FBI Agents James C. Kennedy and Leo L. Robertson, concerning an interview with William J. Newman on December 24, 1963, and for identification I am marking that document, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-D. The deposition of W. J. Newman." And signing my name on that document.

Now, Mr. Newman, you have had an opportunity, I think, to read these various documents there, 5038, then 5038-A, B, C and D.

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and that is all we want to know.

There seems to be some contradiction between them. Maybe there is not. If there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we want to know. If there is a contradiction, we would like to have your explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we want to know anyhow. If there is a contradiction, it is obvious that one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us which is wrong and which is right. That is the sole purpose of this inquiry.

Mr. NEWMAN. Be happy to; if I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps I can get at it this way: These reports seem to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. These records also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the basement. Now, I think we can clarify this situation immediately by asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and there was a man coming down the Main Street ramp, and as far as you know they are two different episodes?

Mr. NEWMAN. Two different things.

Mr. HUBERT. Two different things. All right. We got a lot clarified there. Now, I think the other point is when did each of these happen, and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp.

Mr. NEWMAN. This, as I stated there, was, as near as I can estimate, approximately 1 minute or less prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said in your statement that because of the various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or sight or anything of that sort?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say when he was coming down the ramp?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct. I have also--I have never made any estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. No; that's correct. I didn't mean to intimate that you had. It is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of Jack Ruby since?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the man coming down the ramp was Jack Ruby?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; I wouldn't. By the same token, I wouldn't say that he wasn't.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I just didn't pay that much attention to it at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was definitely about a minute before the shooting?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I think we have that one clarified, so far as that is concerned.

Now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought about the timing on that?

Mr. NEWMAN. I have none. When I talked to Lieutenant Revill, I think this was Sunday the 1st of December, I guess it would be, and he asked me two or three times whether I had seen a man go over the rail. I couldn't recall anyone. Later, I think it was, oh, two days later, I am not sure, I did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as I stated in that statement, I cannot, for the life of me, set the time in any figures. Just something that registered, and that was the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a minute before or a minute after, 5 minutes before or 5 minutes after, or for that matter more time before or more time after?

Mr. NEWMAN. Well, I know not longer than 5 or 10 minutes after, because I wasn't there. I couldn't establish it at any time.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that your best recollection right now, today, is simply that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the parking area into the ramp.

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the ramp was it; do you remember?

Mr. NEWMAN. About midway.

Mr. HUBERT. About midway? But, you don't know?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just----

Mr. HUBERT. The relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously.

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember how the man was dressed?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you this, too: Do you know whether it was, or was not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not Jack Ruby, or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all?

Mr. NEWMAN. I have no opinion whatsoever. I would like to say in that, since we are talking about this incident, that when I talked to Detective Westphal--was it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. NEWMAN. Lieutenant Revill was out of town. He didn't indicate to me that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. I was not aware of the fact that he had even written a memo on it. Mr. Griffin, last night, did not bring it up, and I, after talking to him, dropped the subject. Didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this undated statement which we have identified as 5038-A, the one that is also unsigned? Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't know. I would guess probably that information was taken down at the time I talked to him on the telephone. That is, by and large, the statement I made to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, by Exhibit 5038-B, when Westphal reports on it, says, "Subject." That means you, "called this date." Did he ask you when--in other words, he left a call for you, is that correct?

Mr. NEWMAN. Now, I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. You called him to tell him what?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just to give him that information that I had remembered since I talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed to think it was fairly important.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of Holly?

Mr. NEWMAN. I don't recall. I spoke to several reserve officers. I can't recall any of them as to who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming over the rail?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, at the time I didn't even recall placing any significance on the fact, because at the time I didn't even know what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall talking to anybody about either of these two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man jumping over the rail while you were at Parkland that day?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement, but I think I had better get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to either of the two men?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I had no contact with them.

Mr. HUBERT. I didn't mean that contact, so much as I meant taking some police action.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, that is what I meant too.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Do you know an officer by the name of Brock? Reserve officer, I believe.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't. I don't recognize the name.

Mr. HUBERT. And one by the name of Worley?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, I don't recognize that name either. I might know him on sight if I see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any other comments to make? I think the thing is clarified.

Mr. NEWMAN. No, we had our misunderstanding last night. I didn't know what needed to be clarified. I know I was thoroughly shaky and possibly not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a half, but that wasn't my concern, and I didn't pay too much attention. I just gave it as best I remembered.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't at the deposition last night, so I don't know what went on, and I, therefore, will not ask you any further questions.

Have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition today?

Mr. NEWMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think that is all. Thank you for coming very much.

Mr. NEWMAN. I do have one other thing here that Mr. Griffin seemed to be concerned about last night, in that I couldn't identify a man, a reserve officer I had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately after I got there by name. That that you are holding is a class picture that was made. I can now identify--I have a list of names in my pocket if you want them.

Mr. HUBERT. The only way for it to be of the use would be if you would let me mark the picture and put it in the record.

Mr. NEWMAN. You may have it if you like. I don't know whether it is of any importance or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't either, but--do you want it to go in?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not necessarily. I am leaving it up to you.

Mr. HUBERT. As I say, I don't know what the question was last night about identification, and you have brought this matter up; I am perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. I think it would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but on the other hand maybe it wouldn't be necessary. Why don't you say what you have to say about it and then we can judge better?

Mr. NEWMAN. As near as I can recall, when he was questioning me about what officers I had seen in the basement that morning whom I knew, and the subject came up that I had seen one man but I could not remember his name. He asked me at that time for a description of him and I gave it to him. After looking at that picture last night when I got home, and with the list of names I had for the picture, I can now give the man's name, if you would like it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. NEWMAN. Third from the left--second from the left on the back row. Casten, Jerome Casten.

Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. Now, that was the reserve officer that Mr. Griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as I understand it, you testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his description, but at that time you did not know his name?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. With the aid of this picture, which as I understand, is a class picture--I see Captain Solomon there, by the way--you identified him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his name to be----

Mr. NEWMAN. Jerome Casten.

Mr. HUBERT. Jerome Casten. I think it would be better if you would allow this to go in. I am, therefore, marking the picture on the reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5038-E, deposition of W. J. Newman." Then I am signing my name below that, I am placing an "X" over the man you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "X"; is that correct, sir?

Mr. NEWMAN. That's right. I don't remember seeing that man throughout the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we were both talking about the same document all the time, I wonder if you would mind placing your name below mine on each one of these?

Mr. NEWMAN. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF BOBBY G. PATTERSON

The testimony of Bobby G. Patterson was taken at 4:07 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bobby G. Patterson.

Mr. Patterson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Patterson.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Patterson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including what you know about what Jack Ruby might have had to do with it.

Mr. Patterson, I think you have appeared here by virtue of an individual request made to you to appear here--was that by a letter?

Mr. PATTERSON. By a letter.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that letter addressed to you by J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission--when did you receive it?

Mr. PATTERSON. Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday?

Mr. PATTERSON. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Sunday.

Mr. PATTERSON. I came back Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to testifying now?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I say that is that under the rules of the Commission a person is supposed to have a 3-day notice before they can be required to testify, but the rules also provide that you can waive it if you want to. If you are willing to testify and waive the 3 days notice, we can go ahead.

Mr. PATTERSON. I am as willing as he is.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; would you stand up and raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Bobby G. Patterson.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Thirty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your residence?

Mr. PATTERSON. Mesquite, Tex., 3463 Caracas [spelling] C-a-r-a-c-a-s.

Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation is what?

Mr. PATTERSON. Patrolman, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about 5-1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do before that?

Mr. PATTERSON. I worked for American Beauty Flour Co. down here on South Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I have shown you a document which for the purpose of identification I have marked in the right margin the words, "Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964. Exhibit 5311, Patrolman Bobby G. Patterson," and I have put my name on it, and since it contains a second page, I have put my initials at the bottom of the second page, and I ask you if you have read that document?

Mr. PATTERSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. That purports to be a report of an interview of you made by Special Agents Horton and Propst [spelling] P-r-o-p-s-t, on November 30, 1963, does it not; is that correct?

Mr. PATTERSON. I believe it is--I wouldn't say for sure--it was on Saturday, I believe--I don't know when it was.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, I ask you if you think that this report identified as Exhibit 5311 is a fair report of the interview that you had with the FBI agents?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is a fair report.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you would like to add or delete or modify with respect to Exhibit 5311?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, that's just about it. As far as the time, now, I don't know about some of the time in my report and every report and stuff like that--I don't know if that makes any difference or not. That is as near as I could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this--you say you are not sure about the times that are stated in this report, Exhibit 5311. I take it that you weren't sure really at the time that they interviewed you; is that correct?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--you know, the correct time?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, I note that where this exhibit does mention time, it says "about."

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, that's what I put it, "about."

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know Ruby at all?

Mr. PATTERSON. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were at the top of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. PATTERSON. The ramp; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From about 9:30 on--you never left it?

Mr. PATTERSON. I never left it.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, no one unidentified was there?

Mr. PATTERSON. No one without proper identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you understood was meant by "proper identification"?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he said not to let no one in except police and reporters unless they had proper identification.

Mr. HUBERT. You said they told you--who was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. The sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. Sergeant Dean?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, with respect to police, I guess their uniform would establish their identity?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, they have a regular identification.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were instructed to have them show their official identification?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did so?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the identification of newsmen?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the best I could tell, they pulled out all the identification--part of them had pictures of who they worked for, where they lived, some of them didn't have nothing, some of them had stickers and I had to turn one of them back--I did--he come up there in a WRR truck and got out of it but didn't have no identification and he had to go back and get some.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as far as you were concerned, you were not satisfied if a man just simply had a badge on saying "press"?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You went further and required something that would satisfy you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes--anybody can pick up a press badge.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually turned back some people who claimed to be the press, but you weren't satisfied with their identification?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you require a picture?

Mr. PATTERSON. Some of them had pictures and some of them didn't--some of them had where they lived--on down further who they worked for and what press--and they had cameras on.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if they had that sort of thing, you figured that that was proper?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it's proper identification--you know half of them didn't know they were supposed to have the pictures. Of course, I don't guess the chief or anybody notified them to have pictures like they did down at the county.

Mr. HUBERT. But you considered that the identification you required as to newsmen, when they didn't have a picture, would be such as would satisfy you in normal police work in identifying anybody?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license and things of that sort?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, sometimes I would have them show me their driver's license and that on top of their identification too, to make sure that was the same person.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you stayed in that position I guess from about 9:30 until actually----

Mr. PATTERSON. Almost 12 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. After the killing--after the ambulance went through?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions as to how the transfer was to take place?

Mr. PATTERSON. All they told me was that he would be transferred by armored car and for me to stay on the right side of it--of the armored car--as it was being backed in, and I stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have previously handed you another document which I have marked for identification by writing on the margin as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5312, Deposition of Patrolman Bobby G. Patterson," and I have signed my name below.

Now, I show you that document?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it and have read it?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You consider that it is correct and states the truth?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any modifications or adjustments?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is about as true as I could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. No deletions or anything to add?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mr. PATTERSON. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a telephone, sir?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your telephone number, please?

Mr. PATTERSON. BRoadway 9-0394.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you had that number?

Mr. PATTERSON. Oh, about--almost a year.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar at all with the telephone number WH-2-5326?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, sir; I never heard tell of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert Carl Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your middle initial is "G" and that stands for what?

Mr. PATTERSON. Gene [spelling] G-e-n-e.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you are not a person by the name of Robert Carl Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever lived at 902 East Waco Street, Dallas?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Patterson, I am going to show you a page in an exhibit which has been re-marked, "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," on which I have signed my name, and that same group of pages has also been marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205, in connection with the testimony of another witness?

On one of the pages thereof, I show you the number "WH-2-5326, Bobby [spelling] B-o-b-b-y Patterson." Is that your handwriting?

Mr. PATTERSON. It isn't mine--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. PATTERSON. I sure don't--I haven't heard tell of that number.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed previous to this time by any member of the Commission's staff?

Mr. PATTERSON. I never have.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you; that's all.

Mr. PATTERSON. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:20 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Rio S. Pierce, with the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Pierce, my name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Pierce. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Lieutenant Pierce, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Lieutenant Pierce, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so, and I ask you----

Lieutenant PIERCE. I waive that.

Mr. HUBERT. May I ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that you can be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Rio S. Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. Age?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Forty.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence, please?

Lieutenant PIERCE. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so occupied?

Lieutenant PIERCE. About 17 1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held the rank of lieutenant?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Four years.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your specific duties and responsibilities on November 24, 1963?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Do you have reference to normal duties, or on this specific day?

Mr. HUBERT. On this specific day.

Lieutenant PIERCE. On this specific day I had instructions to secure the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom did you receive those instructions?

Lieutenant PIERCE. From Captain Talbert.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he one of your superior officers?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant commander and----

Mr. HUBERT. What time did he give you those orders, sir?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I would say about 9 to 9:15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to secure the basement area?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; other than securing enough men from the other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you state for the record what you actually did in connection with carrying out those orders?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, while we were responsible for the routine work of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to the central station to be used as they were needed. Sergeant Dean was assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by Sergeant Putnam, and as I recall, there was a total of about 19 men that were called off their districts to help in this work.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the searching out work?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; Sergeant Dean made the assignment of the men, and approximately an hour later, I guess maybe 10:15, I did make an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been checked out, and it was considered secure.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your inspection consist of at the time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Looking over the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk around?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I walked around the basement and checked various entrances to the city hall basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Brock?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I can't recall right now. I know the name, I am sure that I know him by sight, but I don't connect the name with the person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the basement?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Are you talking about in the new building?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal building.

Lieutenant PIERCE. As well as I remember, there was an officer. I believe his name was Brock. A police officer by the name of Brock. I'm not certain, but those elevators had been cut off for----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and another one leading on the other side of the basement? Are you familiar with the elevator at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into the alley, and that is the elevator I believe, that was brought down and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of any planned route from the basement area to the county jail?

Lieutenant PIERCE. My instructions were that I would escort the armored car, which would be a decoy, from Commerce Street ramp to Central northbound. To Elm Street onto Houston Street, which would be the entrance to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you receive those orders from?

Lieutenant PIERCE. From Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you get those orders?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I would assume it was about 11:15.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I immediately left. I received these instructions in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. Immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where I secured a car and I found that the normal exit, which is the exit on Commerce Street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an armored car. It was necessary for me to use the Main Street exit. I mean--actually, the Main Street entrance, because we don't exit----

Mr. HUBERT. But you used it as an exit?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I used it as an exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Sergeant Putnam was in the front seat with me and Sergeant Maxey was in the back seat.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what happened along the route then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, we pulled out of the basement, and I would judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it would take it to circle city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the top of the basement, were there any guards there on the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Patrolman Vaughn was stationed at the top of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him prior to that time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact that he had to move out of the way to let us out.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way did he move?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved toward the street.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean on which side of you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He moved to my right.

Mr. HUBERT. And towards the street?

Lieutenant PIERCE. And towards the street; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What way was he facing then during the period that you were moving by him?

Lieutenant PIERCE. He was facing me, as well as I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. That is----

Lieutenant PIERCE. Momentarily, anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, he would have been looking from where he was standing toward the Main Street entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him turn his head any at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, sir; I couldn't see him for just a matter of a second there when I pulled out. That ramp is steep and a little bit difficult to get out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he step out in the street at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you turn, immediately outside the Main Street entry or exit, to your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were pressed, not a large number of them, but I would say maybe four or five.

Mr. HUBERT. On your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No, well, probably might have been a--I don't know. Just a guess. I don't recall the number of people now, what it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were some people on your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I was aware that people were on both sides of the car when I pulled across the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. And how far from the entrance?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Well, probably 6 or 7 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize anybody at all?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Nobody except one by the name of Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether he had a hat on or not?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing him if I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I didn't see him that day at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that if he had been there he would have recognized you?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I'm saying the possibilities are very great that had he been there I might not have seen him. I mean, due to the time element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. I am saying the possibilities are very good that I might not have seen him had he been there. I'd be very hesitant to say that I wouldn't.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark for identification three documents. First, I am marking, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5077. Deposition of Rio Pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that being a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry. The second document also consisting of two pages, a report of an interview with you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 6, in 1963. I am marking that, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5078, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on the front page of that, and I place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. And I am marking a third document on the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5079, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on that front page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. That last document, to wit: 5079, purports to be a report of an interview by FBI Agents Chapoton and Smith of you, Rio Pierce, on December 2, 1963. Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these documents?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are those documents correct and true?

Lieutenant PIERCE. To the best of my knowledge, they are.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any omissions of a material nature?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't recall any.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, or add because it has been omitted?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I don't see anything in there that I would care to change.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, this represents the truth as you know it?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Maxey was in your car, was he not?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the rear?

Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about having seen Daniels at the exit? N. J. Daniels?

Lieutenant PIERCE. You mean since then?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, since the day you drove out of there. In other words, have you and Maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, Maxey, saw Daniels?

Lieutenant PIERCE. It is possible. I don't recall. People talk about a lot of things since then.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been no interview between you and any member of the Commission's staff before this deposition today, has there?

Lieutenant PIERCE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else you want to say or add or change?

Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't know of a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. PUTNAM

The testimony of Sgt. James A. Putnam was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. This is the deposition of Sgt. James A. Putnam, Dallas Police Department. Sergeant Putnam, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr., I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, by President of the United States, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Putnam. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Sergeant Putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry.

Sergeant Putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Now, I'll ask you if you are willing to waive that 3-day written notice?

Sergeant PUTNAM. What is the purpose?

Mr. HUBERT. Simply this, that any witness--the Commission says that any witness should have a privilege of having 3 days' written notice before he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. Now, you have not had that, because of the way the request came. You see, the request came by letter to Mr. Curry from Mr. Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission, and----

Sergeant PUTNAM. May I ask why it was done by this method rather than the normal official notice?

Mr. HUBERT. Simply because of the number of people that were involved. If you wish to have the normal 3-day notice----

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, will any further--will there be necessary for me to appear at any further date? Also, are we going to conclude it tonight? I will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further need for me to arrive at this time, that I receive it if--it has got my only day off in 2 weeks. I will waive it at this time and request it if you do need me again, but I do get the 3-day official notice.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly will do so. First, let me say this in regard to the time and so forth and being your day off. The actual sequence of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. I don't want to place the blame on anyone but I am awfully sorry.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will surely get the notice, but I don't believe you will be. However, I can't be absolutely certain. I will get in touch with you by phone and be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because I know how important that is. Would you stand up and raise your right hand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Please state your full name, please.

Sergeant PUTNAM. James A. Putnam.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Thirty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Sergeant PUTNAM. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation and how long have you held it?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Police officer. Ten years and four months.

Mr. HUBERT. And the rank you have now?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been sergeant? You have held that for how long?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Eight months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the period of November 22 and 24?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who do you serve under, sir?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. And Lieutenant Pierce is with the patrol division?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. He is under Captain Talbert?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, Captain Talbert is your superior officer, too----

Sergeant PUTNAM. Also.

Mr. HUBERT. In the line of command. Now, I have in my hand, two documents which I am going to mark--three documents which I am going to mark. Marking the first one as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5071. Deposition of J. A. Putnam," and I am signing my name on that. The document is supposed to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed by James A. Putnam to Chief of Police J. E. Curry, and it has two pages. I am placing my initials on the second page. I am marking another document as follows, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5072. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. Then I am marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made on December the 3, by Special Agents Carris and Peden of the FBI. I am marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5073. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. Have you had a chance to read these three documents that I have marked?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I thought there were two. I would like to see the second one you marked. It may be another interview by the FBI. Now, is that correct?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant PUTNAM. I wasn't aware that this was separate. I know I read the first one. Yes; I had missed that page. That was----

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, if we can handle them that way, and if we can't----

Sergeant PUTNAM. I believe we can.

Mr. HUBERT. If they represent the truth, if there are any errors in any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add anything, delete anything or modify anything?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir; I accept them as they are.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, would you do this, then. Would you put your name below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that appear. Now, sergeant, I have only a very few questions, I think, to ask you about this, because as I read your statements they are rather complete, taking the three together. They just give about everything you know about the whole thing.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from this, you were in the basement area, from about 9:30 until shortly before 11:20?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You assisted, I think, in the searches made of the basement area?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You made some of these searches yourself?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, I--now, I----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you know him now, of course. Did you on November 24, prior to the time that Oswald was shot, did you know of the existence of a person named Jack Ruby?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I had heard the name. But so far as ever meeting him personally, I don't think that I ever had. If I did, I don't remember it from seeing his pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I wanted to ask you, on the 24th, if you had met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that you would have recognized him at all?

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him after his arrest?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw his picture. I have not seen him personally.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him in the basement area?

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who did?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That saw him in the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Prior to the shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who might have seen him and who might not have?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir. I--there have been discussions to the effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and recognized him. I mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be there.

Mr. HUBERT. And yet, of course, he was there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you know of no evidence that would indicate that anyone did actually see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anyone say that he had seen him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had seen him there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the discussions have been simply that since he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Except when I evaluate it. Having worked with those reporters and around them I can understand how that could have happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with for those 2 days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were directed to get into a car with a couple of people and drive around to the Commerce Street side?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who gave you that direction?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't you?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you? Didn't you drive the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who drove it?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce leave with the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I was in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you seated in the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. In the front seat.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm sorry. The front right seat?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in the back seat?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Sergeant Maxey.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get seated in the car?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Are you referring to time?

Mr. HUBERT. Let's get it this way, I understand that you had to get out of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car could go up the ramp.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking area at first when you started off?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area to the ramp that goes between the two streets.

Mr. HUBERT. Got in the car there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. After he traveled about 10 to 15 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you have to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Because the reporters had formed on the north.

Mr. HUBERT. Main Street?

Sergeant PUTNAM. On the north.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you just use the street directions. Main Street ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Main Street ramp, but by the "ramp" I don't mean the incline, where it flattens out.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. On that flat part.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right. So, I had to get out of the car and move them back to prevent hitting some of them.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that area do you think?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I would estimate 15 to 25.

Mr. HUBERT. And they were standing shoulder to shoulder?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't get--this impression. They were standing in wait of the expected departure of Oswald, and they were just mingled, and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position themselves.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you had to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause confusion. First of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. They are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying attention to us. They are looking in the direction they expect Oswald to come out from, so, I got out and----

Mr. HUBERT. When the path cleared up, you got back in again?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the window on the right down?

Sergeant PUTNAM. The window was down.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? That is when you got to the Main Street, the sidewalk area, and, of course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what happened? What did you see?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I saw officer Vaughn and about six persons.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was Vaughn now when you first saw him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. In front of our automobile about the middle of the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?

Sergeant PUTNAM. He stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on.

Mr. HUBERT. You went into Main Street and turned left?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go very much out into the street to assist you to get out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he stepped off of the curb, though?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Possibly one step off of the curb.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he looked to his right and his left? How did he do that?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I----

Mr. HUBERT. How was he standing? With his back to you?

Sergeant PUTNAM. My impression was he was facing us and my impression was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound traffic and Lieutenant Pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a position to see the eastbound traffic.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, turned his head so that the back of his head would have been towards the Main Street ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he stepped off of the curb just about 2 feet?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, I would say in one step, 2 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn't go into the middle of the street?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he waved you on?

Sergeant PUTNAM. He immediately turned back and glanced like this [indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say from the time you all reached the Main Street exit point to the time that Vaughn started to walk back to his position, it took only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds?

Sergeant PUTNAM. We didn't even stop the car. It would be very few seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. No stop at all?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Just a--to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking on the sidewalk. Now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, and immediately--at this time everything happened at once. He slowed the car, Vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. He accelerated and we went on to Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn your head to the right when you got to the sidewalk?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was not a soul?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Didn't see anyone in sight in--except Officer Vaughn and the persons that I say were on the left.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was nobody coming up Main Street towards Harwood?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I can't say that there was not. I can say that I didn't see them.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all you can do, of course.

Sergeant PUTNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there was no one standing there that you saw?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be Jack Ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the Pearl Street side of Main Street exit?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look at the people on the left side?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I only glanced. I just----

Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify anybody?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Not a person.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you specifically say that Ruby was not there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All you can say is, I take it then, the man you have since learned to be Ruby was--you didn't see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If he was there, you didn't see him?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I didn't see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you go as far as to say, turning again to your right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all?

Sergeant PUTNAM. I can say that there was no one in the immediate vicinity within, I would say--well, it was apparent that--15 feet away from me I saw a group of people standing, and to the right----

Mr. HUBERT. On the----

Sergeant PUTNAM. To the left, and to the right I saw no one in the immediate vicinity of us.

Mr. HUBERT. That is immediately upon coming out?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the person who has subsequently been identified as Jack Ruby among the reporters that he pushed through?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were going up the ramp?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How far down Main Street to Pearl do you think you can see?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well, it is a clear view to Pearl Street, but my attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. It would have made no impression.

Mr. HUBERT. But, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far as a half a block away?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's my belief.

Mr. HUBERT. And Vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his position?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Was walking back in that direction. In other words, we could have been close enough to touch him.

Mr. HUBERT. As you passed, he was walking back.

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, he was facing towards the entrance?

Sergeant PUTNAM. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him call to anybody up there?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is there anything else you would like to say?

Sergeant PUTNAM. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which we have identified here as 5071, 5072 and 5073?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff at all prior to this deposition?

Sergeant PUTNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that is all. If any fact that has not been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to your attention, I hope you will free to let us know about it if you think it is a material fact. All we are seeking is to get the facts. That's all. And if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the United States attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make arrangements to see you again.

But at this time, we will give you the 3 days' notice.

I thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIE B. SLACK

The testimony of Willie B. Slack was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Patrolman Willie--is that Willie? Not William?

Mr. SLACK. Willie.

Mr. HUBERT. Willie B. Slack. Mr. Slack, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the rules provided by the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, together with the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Slack.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Slack, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by this Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice that your deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you may waive the 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so. And are you now willing to waive that 3-day notice?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SLACK. W. B. Slack.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. SLACK. Thirty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. SLACK. 5605 Sumatra, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mr. SLACK. Patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a patrolman on the Dallas Police Force?

Mr. SLACK. Ten years.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your particular assignment?

Mr. SLACK. Working in the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. What duties do you have there, in general?

Mr. SLACK. We answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the worksheets down, we book them on a booking form.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, book the prisoners in and out?

Mr. SLACK. Check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "Pays them out," you mean, makes bond?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; or writs.

Mr. HUBERT. Or writs? Oh, you mean if they are released on a writ?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your office then is the control center, as it were, for people coming in and people coming out?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the police?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963, the day that Oswald was shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. SLACK. 6:30 a.m., in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You had what is called the first platoon, I think. Eleven o'clock, oh, no--I beg your pardon. That would be the second platoon.

Mr. SLACK. Second platoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Comes on at 6:30 and goes off at 2:30?

Mr. SLACK. 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you were there between 11 and the time Oswald was shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that day?

Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the occasion when Oswald was brought down to be transferred to the county jail?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what you know about it in your own words.

Mr. SLACK. Well, he got off the elevator and----

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before that time?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and Captain Fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging doors, which is into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it?

Mr. SLACK. 11:20.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. SLACK. When a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the time on a booking card, we have to put them down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that booking card exist?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you examined it briefly?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?

Mr. SLACK. I examined it before I came to work, before I came over here.

Mr. HUBERT. When? This morning, or yesterday, or----

Mr. SLACK. That was yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. What does it show?

Mr. SLACK. It shows----

Mr. HUBERT. About the time?

Mr. SLACK. Transferred to the county at 11:20 a.m., on the 24th of November.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in?

Mr. SLACK. It is in mine.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you fix the time? How do you normally fix the time?

Mr. SLACK. Well, we put the date and the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have an electric clock?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you rely upon your watch?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; we have a clock on the wall.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it accurate?

Mr. SLACK. That, I can't answer, because----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean, you all go by it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Time is of importance in going in and going out of prisoners, isn't it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; it sure is important.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if it is?

Mr. SLACK. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed it to be wrong?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I sure haven't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut off, or something of that sort.

Mr. SLACK. Yes. Well, if the time was different from one of our watches I imagine they would call "Time," sir. Of course, we call "Time," all the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that clock is accurate; right?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If it were in error, what would you say would be the greatest error it could be in?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened after that?

Mr. SLACK. Well, he went out the door, and then my job there was to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and I was supposed to notify the dispatcher that they were----

Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. That they were on their way.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you received any orders about that?

Mr. SLACK. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. Lieutenant Wiggins.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go over the radio?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; they have a direct line to the county.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his way?

Mr. SLACK. Apparently; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told that by Wiggins or had you been told that--merely to notify the dispatcher?

Mr. SLACK. The----

Mr. HUBERT. We have to take it on the record. Just----

Mr. SLACK. Well, my letter there I wrote that--do you have a copy of it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLACK. That I--well, I can say that I was told to tell the dispatcher that he was en route to the county.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the dispatcher was?

Mr. SLACK. Jim Farr is the dispatcher.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on that particular day?

Mr. SLACK. Well, he is, like I say, the dispatcher up there, but when I called on this particular occasion, I got Miss Cason first, and then I----

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was to report to Miss Cason that the man had been shot?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; but----

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to Miss Cason?

Mr. SLACK. Told her that Oswald had been shot, and that we needed a doctor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an ambulance?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your remark to Miss Cason was simply that Oswald had been shot and to get a doctor?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at 11:20? Was that done at 11:20 or later?

Mr. SLACK. I would--I believe I wrote it out then. In other words, what I am in the habit of doing is this. That is something that comes naturally.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the normal procedure is that the time of release and the time of action taken----

Mr. SLACK. I was standing there----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the act itself?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these notations, and you look to see what time it is. You enter the time, and that is how the notation is made?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, was there any deviation from that normal procedure in the case of the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. SLACK. The deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. In this particular case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, we had to write down when he did come down.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you hadn't pulled his card?

Mr. SLACK. I had his card pulled. I knew he was going to be transferred, presumably.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't entered anything?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I had it on the clipboard on the counter where we always keep them.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection about what you entered there with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made before or after the shooting?

Mr. SLACK. It was made before the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was made in the interval when he came out of the elevator and they walked out?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SLACK. [Witness nods head.]

Mr. HUBERT. She can't--you have to say something, because the reporter can't record silence.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I forget.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see the shooting, as I understand it?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I saw the shuffle out there.

Mr. HUBERT. And then they brought Ruby and Oswald in?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did either Ruby or Oswald say anything that you, yourself heard?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice the time that they brought them in? Who came in first?

Mr. SLACK. I don't know, sir. Like I say, the lieutenant told me to call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "lieutenant," I believe you are referring to Lieutenant Wiggins?

Mr. SLACK. Wiggins; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the times of, say the movement of Ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance arrived and the time when it left with Oswald?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; not the exact time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No record was made on any of that?

Mr. SLACK. Not that I know of. Not in our office.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the form called that you filled in with your own hand about the time of movement? Does that have a number?

Mr. SLACK. We call it a booking card.

Mr. HUBERT. Booking card?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you testified that yesterday you looked at it to refresh your memory and it is in your handwriting, and it states 11:20?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently sometime ago, let's say on December 12, you were interviewed by the FBI, and at that time you stated it was between 11:25 and 11:30 that Oswald was brought down. Can you assist us in explaining this discrepancy between the two times? Do you remember that interview?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I remember the interview; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Edmond Hardin and Paul Scott, and yourself?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall telling them it was 11:25?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now about it, or are you relying upon what you saw on the records yesterday when you looked at it?

Mr. SLACK. That would be the way I would have to go on it, sir, would be the records there.

Mr. HUBERT. You are satisfied that the record which is normally made extemporaneously with the act is really more accurate than your present memory right now?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or would have been more accurate actually than your statement to the FBI agent if, in fact, you did say that?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to just read these two documents. The one, the FBI report, and the other, the letter. Have you had occasion to read the two documents I have handed you, sir?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark them then for identification.

Mr. SLACK. There is a little discrepancy----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I'm going to give you an opportunity to explain them.

For the purpose of identification I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by Willie B. Slack, dated November 27, 1963. I am marking it "Dallas, Texas, March 31. 1963, Exhibit No. 5116, deposition of W. B. Slack." Putting my name below it. It has only one page. For the purpose of identification, I am marking what purports to be an FBI interview of Willie B. Slack by Agents Hardin and Scott, which took place on December 2, 1963. I am marking the first page of that document with the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5117. Deposition of W. B. Slack," and signing my name, and on the second page thereof, on the lower right-hand corner I am placing my initial. Now, Patrolman Slack, I show you the document marked Exhibit 5116, and ask you if you have read it, and if it is a correct statement?

Mr. SLACK. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct statement?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, same document, I wonder if you will just put your name below mine. Now, we will refer to a document--in two pages--that I have marked a moment ago for identification as "5117," and ask you if you have read that, and if that is correct, or if you have any corrections or observation or comments to make with reference to that document? For the purpose of identification will you mark these two documents with your name where my name is, and with your initials where my initials are, and then you can make the comments if you want to correct it or modify it and so forth.

Mr. SLACK. You want me to mark it before I----

Mr. HUBERT. Just sign your name on that, and on the second page write your initials. That's right. Now, have you any comments to make, or any corrections to make concerning that document?

Mr. SLACK. Well, on your second page, in here, the document here stated that Patrolman Slack cleared his office. I didn't have anything to do with security in the office. Only part I was in charge would be the immediate area in which I was standing, and nobody was in there, of course, but our personnel. Of course, I believe I did make the statement to them after they had cleared it, it wasn't no one that had come in except authorized personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are speaking of the second to last paragraph on the second page and you want to modify that paragraph so that it will conform with the statement you have just made, and which the stenographer has recorded?

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir; I am not a supervisor or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice also, and I believe you have already testified about this, but I think for the purposes of clarity, we ought to note it, and that is that upon the first page there is a statement that about 11:25 to 11:30, Oswald was brought down.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your previous testimony actually has clarified that, but it was those times that you were speaking about in this deposition earlier, that is to say, that as to this statement in "5117" the last paragraph on the first page, wherein it says that you saw Oswald coming down somewhere between 11:25 and 11:30, your previous statement or testimony is more accurate, that is to say, that it was about 11:20.

Mr. SLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think that modification ought to be noted, too.

Mr. SLACK. Yes; I do too.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is noted, because the reporter has taken it down. Now, have you any other statement that you would like to make that has not been covered?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; that is about all.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission's staff prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; except the----

Mr. HUBERT. The FBI? Yes. I mean the President's Commission?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The staff of the President's Commission?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DON FRANCIS STEELE

The testimony of Don Francis Steele was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order in the joint resolution I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Steele. I now state that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Steele, the nature of our inquiry tonight is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Steele, you have appeared here by virtue of a request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, directed to Chief J. E. Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by this Commission also provide that you may waive that 3-day notice if you are willing to do so. Now, the question is: Are you willing to waive the notice?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant STEELE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Sergeant STEELE. Don Francis Steele.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Sergeant STEELE. Thirty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Sergeant STEELE. 1707 Kent Drive, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Your occupation?

Sergeant STEELE. Sergeant of police, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a sergeant of police?

Sergeant STEELE. Five years and four months--five months, excuse me.

Mr. HUBERT. What division or department of the Dallas Police Department?

Sergeant STEELE. I am presently in the patrol division.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on November 22, 23, and 24, 1963?

Sergeant STEELE. November 22 I was on a day off.

Mr. HUBERT. 23d?

Sergeant STEELE. 23d I worked in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. HUBERT. And the----

Sergeant STEELE. And the 24th, of course, the regular assignment is in the Oak Cliff area, and I reported to that assignment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you moved from that assignment?

Sergeant STEELE. I came to the city hall, came to the police station downtown early that morning to pick up some correspondence, telegrams, and things like that, to take to Officer Tippit's widow.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time was that?

Sergeant STEELE. That was approximately 9:15.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, the captain was bringing in some of the patrolmen from in the field, from all the stations, and I asked Lieutenant Pierce if there was anything he needed me to do before I left, and he said, "Well--" told me I'd better stick around for a while. He might need me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything later on?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, I stayed there and in the patrol office for 15 or 20 minutes, and then the captain came in----

Mr. HUBERT. Which captain?

Sergeant STEELE. Captain Talbert, C. E. Talbert. He told me to come on and go with him, and he wanted to look the situation over outside. We walked down the stairs to the first floor where the corporation court is located and out the door on the Commerce Street--and there were several--they blocked those buildings directly across the street from the police building. He told me to get a man, or get as many people as I needed and check the buildings over there to make sure that there weren't any doors open, or somebody wasn't concealed inside the building. I got a patrolman, I believe it was Officer Jez. We went over there, checked all the doors in the front. They were all secure. We climbed up the fire escape and checked the roofs of all of the buildings directly across from the vehicular exit on the Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. When that was completed, what did you do?

Sergeant STEELE. Not much of anything for a while. Stayed down there in the basement for I guess 30 or 40 minutes and everything was kind of at a standstill.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Sergeant STEELE. About the time I finished checking the buildings, and everything, I guess it was--now, wait a minute. Excuse me. Then I reported--after I checked those buildings, I reported to Captain Talbert that there was a large crowd of pedestrians on the sidewalk right outside of the vehicular route, and he--told me to get some men, some reserve officers if I could, and move them across the street onto the south side of Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, I got five reserve officers and took them out there and told them what I wanted them to do. Helped them do it. Moved all the pedestrians across over to the south side of the street, and I stationed two of them at the corner of Harwood and Commerce, the northeast corner, with instructions to restrict any pedestrian traffic. In other words, not to allow them to come back to that vehicular exit, and I put two more down at Pearl and Commerce Street, and one at the door to city hall with the same instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Commerce----

Sergeant STEELE. The municipal building. The nearest door to the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any on the Main Street door to the municipal building?

Sergeant STEELE. No, sir; I never got to the Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any officers to direct traffic at the intersection of Main and Pearl, or to control traffic?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, we started--can I go on?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; surely.

Sergeant STEELE. Well, we'll get to that. After I got these reserve people put out, as I say, I got down--went down in the basement and talked to the captain for a few minutes. And I stood around and things were kind of at a standstill there. There was lots of television and camera people in there, and about 10:30, I guess, the captain told Sergeant Dean, who related to myself and Sergeant Putnam that they would bring this armored car in and the armored car was going to go down Main Street to the county jail, and he said to get all the regular patrol officers, all the regular officers and assign them to traffic intersections, traffic corners.

Mr. HUBERT. On what street?

Sergeant STEELE. On Main Street, and I just helped Sergeant Dean make the assignments. I don't recall whether I specifically assigned a man to Main and Pearl, but then the captain came along a few minutes later and said it had been changed, that we were going to run the armored car down Elm Street, so, whatever men we may have assigned to Main and Pearl, that is where he would have been, and he was taken off the assignment. They never went to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Okay. So, as far as you know there were no police officers of any sort, reserve or regular directing traffic or controlling it in any way on the corner of Main and Pearl?

Sergeant STEELE. To the best of my knowledge, there was no regular officer.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a reserve officer?

Sergeant STEELE. I couldn't say that.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the original plan to assign one to Pearl and Main, wasn't carried out because of the change in plans, and that man, whoever he was, went to Pearl and Elm?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes. I think that it was--let's see. I believe it was one of my men from Oak Cliff, but I'm not sure, but he never did get to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant STEELE. We didn't even leave the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the shot was fired?

Sergeant STEELE. I was at the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean in the basement?

Sergeant STEELE. No; I had left.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you had left, so, you weren't in this building at all?

Sergeant STEELE. I left about 15 minutes before it occurred. See, we didn't have enough officers, enough radio patrolmen to fill all the corners to put a man at each intersection on Elm Street, so, I went to the county to contact the traffic people and see if I could get three men from them, that is how many we needed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul that lives in Arlington?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a place called "The Bull Pen" there?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is "The Bull Pen"?

Sergeant STEELE. It is a barbecue place, sell beer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the manager of it?

Sergeant STEELE. No, no; I can't recall being in that place more than once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. And the name Ralph Paul doesn't mean anything to you?

Sergeant STEELE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know him?

Sergeant STEELE. Through contacts, various contacts when I was a patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, I had actually first met him, or heard of, or saw Jack Ruby, I guess, in 1955, about 8 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him by sight, do you think, if you saw him?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes; I feel like I would, although, it has been several years since I have seen him in person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to observe the number of people who were standing in the Main Street ramp part of the basement just at the entrance of the jail corridor? Do you know what I mean? In other words, as you were standing in the basement looking toward Main Street where the jail corridor intersects the ramp----

Sergeant STEELE. Right at the corner----

Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner, and looking toward Main Street, did you have occasion to observe how many people were in that area just shortly before the shooting?

Sergeant STEELE. Well, 15 minutes would be as close as I could go, and at that time only probably 10 or 12, kind of milling around. Reporters, television people walking back and forth and that sort of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the building about 11?

Sergeant STEELE. Approximately 11; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car Jack Ruby drives?

Sergeant STEELE. No. Years ago seems to me like he had a Buick, but that was years ago when I was a patrolman and it has been over 5 years. I think he had a Buick at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have not been interviewed by me or any member of the Commission's staff prior to this deposition tonight, have you, sir?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you anything else you wish to add?

Sergeant STEELE. I guess I ought to mention this officer who was with me during all of this.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Sergeant STEELE. J. F. Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I meant to ask you, you have read those statements?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll mark the one dated November 25, 1963, addressed to Chief of Police Curry, apparently the original was signed by you, by placing on that document, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964. Exhibit 5098. Deposition of D. F. Steele," and mark my name below it, and I have marked another document which purports to be an interview by FBI Agents Robertson and Scott of you on December 3, 1963, by marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 25th, 1964, Exhibit 5097, deposition of D. F. Steele." And I sign my name. On the second page of the document I have placed my initials on the bottom of the right-hand corner of the page. I would like to ask you if you have read those, and if those statements are correct?

Sergeant STEELE. I have read them. The only thing that I would say, in paragraph--this would be No. 6. Let's see. One, two, three, four, five, be paragraph No. 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Of Exhibit 50----

Sergeant STEELE. 5097.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Sergeant STEELE. It mentions that I assisted Sergeant Dean in redistributing the newsmen and TV men in the basement area, but actually, I didn't do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that correction, are those two exhibits correct, so far as you know?

Sergeant STEELE. Can I clarify one?

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; certainly.

Sergeant STEELE. On page 2, of that same----

Mr. HUBERT. 5097?

Sergeant STEELE. Yes, sir; paragraph No. 7, says that I did not have knowledge of security measures in effect in the police building. I had knowledge that there was some type of pass required, but this was my first contact with it, and it was being handled by the other sergeant, so, consequently, I didn't know too much about what was required to enter the basement, but I knew that the men on the checkpoint did know what they were supposed to be checking for. And the next paragraph says I had not seen Ruby in approximately 2 years. I'd say probably more like 3 years when I was a jail sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections or additions you wish to make?

Sergeant STEELE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document would you put your name below mine where it appears and your initials below mine where they appear on the second page. Your name there.

Sergeant STEELE. Just sign my name right here?

Mr. HUBERT. That's right; and just put your initials on the bottom.

Sergeant STEELE. Down here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and then the other single documents just sign your name below mine. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROY EUGENE VAUGHN

The testimony of Roy Eugene Vaughn was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, my name is Leon Hubert. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn statement from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly about the entry or possible entry of Ruby into the basement through the Main Street ramp. Did you get a letter directed to you?

Mr. VAUGHN. To appear here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was a written request, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, to you asking you to appear; is that correct?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days from this day?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. VAUGHN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. VAUGHN. Roy Eugene Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. VAUGHN. I am 29.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. VAUGHN. 3231 Loganwood Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. VAUGHN. Police officer.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. VAUGHN. Almost 6 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What rank or rating do you hold now?

Mr. VAUGHN. Patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. You were on duty at the police department on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you report for duty?

Mr. VAUGHN. I'd say at approximately 9 a.m. we got a call to call the patrol office.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean your normal station was not at headquarters?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your normal station?

Mr. VAUGHN. At this particular month, being the month we worked days, and I work relief--I don't work any certain district--and I work just more or less wherever I am needed.

Mr. HUBERT. So, they let you know at your home in some way?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I had already reported for work. I was working with squad 105 that particular morning, which is in the downtown area.

Mr. HUBERT. That's a patrol car?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--district 105, and approximately at 9 a.m. I got a call to call 511, which is patrol headquarters. Officer L. C. Taylor, who answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my car and report to 511.

Mr. HUBERT. What is 511?

Mr. VAUGHN. Which would be the patrol office--that's the extension number which is commonly referred to as such.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a partner?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you report?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say approximately 9:15, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you got there what happened?

Mr. VAUGHN. I walked in the--there was a little small assembly room off of the main office, and I walked in there--there was several men, officers in there--there was Officer Patterson, Officer Brock, and I think R. C. Nelson, I believe, came in a little later, and they had the coffee pot on and so we, I think most of us got a cup of coffee and was just sitting there talking.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Mr. VAUGHN. Then Lieutenant Pierce walked in and told me and Officer Nelson and Officer Brock and Officer Patterson to report to Sergeant Dean in the basement, and he told me to tell Sergeant Dean when this was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the basement and secure the others.

Mr. HUBERT. To leave two men in the basement and to what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said after this was all completed, this transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two men in the basement area and to secure the other two.

Mr. HUBERT. And to secure the other two what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two.

Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean, "secure the other two?"

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to their regular duties.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, of the four men, you were to help in whatever Dean was doing, and then he told you, "Tell Dean--leave two men in the basement and turn the other two loose?"

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that's after everything was completed. That's his message that he more or less sent by me to Sergeant Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to report back somewhere else to work?

Mr. VAUGHN. They were to report back for somewhere else.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow those instructions?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part in the checkout of the basement?

Mr. VAUGHN. As far as actually checking the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was assigned by Sergeant Putnam, who was with Sergeant Dean in the basement, when we got down there--Sergeant Putnam assigned me to the Main Street ramp and I believe he assigned also Patrolman Patterson to the Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time did he assign you to the Main Street entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say, Mr. Hubert, somewhere around 9:30--I couldn't be definite.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except police and the press, and only the press when they had an official press card, and if I didn't recognize any officer by sight to require identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you understand by that that he meant that even if an officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let him in anyhow unless he had an identification?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said--the way I understand it, Mr. Hubert, if I recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own knowing them, then otherwise, where I think it was more applied--to where--he said there would possibly be some Secret Service men and possibly would be some Federal agents I didn't know, and would I require identification from them.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you understand to mean by proper press accreditation or identification?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, there was one case where--there are several different types of press cards. The only one that I would accept from them which would be, and I think in one or two cases, was the official card either issued by the States of Texas or by the City of Dallas, which contained the photograph of the reporter.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, even though they had something that looked like a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact turn away some people?

Mr. VAUGHN. I had one particular--yes, I turned away several people that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. Of course, this is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there and said that they were going to the jail and I turned them away and told them to go some other way.

There was one reporter that come up and I believe he was with either Associated Press or United Press, I don't recall exactly, and he had on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some other reporter, and I told him I didn't know, and he said he wanted to go down and see him, and I told him I couldn't permit him to without identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--I don't know how to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary press pass and I told him I couldn't accept that and he dug around in his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. I believe this particular pass was issued by the State of California or the City of Los Angeles, but it was similar to our official pass.

Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all prior to this occasion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had met Mr. Ruby prior to this time, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times would you say?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say two or three times to be at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before November 24?

Mr. VAUGHN. When I was a rookie in 1959, I met Mr. Ruby while I was working a district out of Oak Lawn and I was more or less being trained at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored musicians that he had.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him on that occasion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; actually, I was just there. I hadn't--I knew the man.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview last?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I'd say just a very few minutes--I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the second time you saw him?

Mr. VAUGHN. The second time was, I believe it was in 1961, and either the last of December or the middle of December.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that occasion.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic violation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him as the man you had seen before?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not until he told me who he was and I reprimanded him and let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview if we can call it that, with Ruby, last?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say at most probably 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the third time you saw him, and I think the third time would have been the last time, too?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall that's about the last time I have ever seen the fellow.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said there were three times?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, either two or three--I couldn't be exact--I believe, like I said, I probably may have seen him more, but you know, just passing him when I was working on the district, but like I say, it would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--I can recall definitely two times.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his clubs?

Mr. VAUGHN. I have been to the Vegas Club, I would say, possibly twice.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel or the Sovereign?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Slipper or any of his other clubs?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't even know he had them.

Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that you went to the Vegas, did you see him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--ever seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago were those occasions?

Mr. VAUGHN. This would also be in 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the last time you really saw him was in December 1961?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe it would be in December 1961--there were other occasions that I was in his club. I was on duty and actually just making a routine check or answering a call there. I had actually never been in his club except on business.

Mr. HUBERT. On those occasions that you did go on business, do you recall having seen him?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't, I don't recall seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. When you stated you were posted at the Main Street ramp, by that I take it you mean the exit of the Main Street ramp, that is to say, where it comes out?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, physically where did you maintain your post?

Mr. VAUGHN. I maintained it inside--actually, I would say 2 or 3 feet inside--actually--of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you weren't on the sidewalk?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no; I was inside--standing inside the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. The ramp is about how many feet wide?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate it--I would say it was 12 to 15 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were standing more or less in the middle?

Mr. VAUGHN. In the middle.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about from 9:30 on?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave that post?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only time when I ever moved out of my position there was when this car which was driven by Lieutenant Pierce exited by that ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you let them through, or you turned away other people?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What steps did you take to maintain the security of your post while you were talking to such people so that other people wouldn't sneak through?

Mr. VAUGHN. I was still standing in the middle of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. It would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on either side of you?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's right--without seeing them.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, tell us what you know about that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I would say it was approximately a quarter or a little past--about 18 minutes past 11, somewhere around there--I wouldn't be exact on the time.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, they established, I think, that the shooting occurred at 11:21 and I'm just judging by the minutes before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you say is that you don't really have a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such and such a time?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--at such and such a time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way. How long before you heard the shot did that car driven by Rio Pierce pass by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say not over 3 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you recognize anybody in the car?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when the car came up?

Mr. VAUGHN. The first thing I noticed the car--still standing inside the ramp--and I heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "Watch the car," and when I looked down you could just get a view of the front end of the car coming up the ramp. It had its red lights on, which were in the grill. As it come on up the ramp, I stepped to my right, and it come up the ramp----

Mr. HUBERT. You stepped towards Pearl Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Pearl Street, and I stepped to my right in order to get out of the car's way, and I stepped out on the sidewalk somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, I believe it was right around the curb, and I glanced--it would be toward the eastbound traffic, which would be traffic towards Pearl Street to see that traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and I turned around and walked back.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go into the street at all?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not pass the curb?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe I did at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right?

Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, the way I was facing it would be to my left, which would be west.

Mr. HUBERT. It would be towards Harwood Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--towards Harwood Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your back then toward the ramp entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, I was standing to the right of the ramp where I still had a view of the ramp itself, the entrance to the ramp. My back would have been toward Pearl Street--it would be towards the east.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, that is, toward Pearl Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall. All I done on that, Mr. Hubert, like I say, I walked out--I glanced west, which would be towards the eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars parked along here on Main Street, I glanced to the west and seen there was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the west, and I just motioned them on.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go out in the middle of the street to halt traffic?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there many people standing around that entrance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I would say at most, I believe, at most it would be a half dozen, I think, who were standing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they standing in front or to the side?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, there was one particular person that I recall that was standing on my right, which would be toward Pearl Street--would be N. J. Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a former policeman?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you recognized him as such?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was in civilian clothes?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You know that little concrete or stone projection out into the sidewalk?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that they have two of those, one on each side of the ramp and they extend about 5 or 6 feet into the sidewalk from the side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they are about 12 inches high?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they are a little higher--I believe they would be about 18 inches high.

Mr. HUBERT. On what side of the ramp was Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. He would be on the east side, toward Pearl Street there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the Pierce car passed by, what did you do?

Mr. VAUGHN. I walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which was 2 or 3 feet inside.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until after the shot was fired?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, following the exit of the Rio Pierce car?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; not that I recall--I don't believe there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you qualify that by saying, "Not that you recall"--I had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been impossible for anybody to do so.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, as far as--actually, when I got inside the ramp, I don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that I stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. When I say I recall, well, I'll put it definite--I know there wasn't--I'll put it that way.

Mr. HUBERT. That's the way I had understood your previous testimony, because I had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials of others.

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think your answer to me was--no, it was impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of you and you were standing in the middle of a 12-foot opening?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your post, following the exit of Rio Pierce's car, that nobody passed you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Nobody passed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did Jack Ruby pass you?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car was coming out, what steps or action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that car was passing through?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only steps, like I said, Mr. Hubert, on that--is when I stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--I made sure that my view of the entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that I could still see the entrance to the right.

Mr. HUBERT. You use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to infer by that it could have been partially blocked?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; the only thing--when I stepped out, as the car came out, I still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that part of your view was blocked by the automobile itself?

Mr. VAUGHN. It possibly--for an instant while the car was coming out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After it cleared the entrance you returned your view to your post, even though you weren't at it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody entered it at that time?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack Ruby standing by that concrete or marble--what do you call it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Slab there.

Mr. HUBERT. Standing by that slab there where Daniels was?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else with Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; not that I recall seeing that morning. Now, Daniels worked up there around approximately 2 or 3 feet--he was there quite some time and during the morning there were several people that would walk by the Main Street entrance and they would look in, more or less curiosity seekers more than anything else. There were very few that actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that I recall--I don't know his name. He was on the left of the ramp which would be toward the Harwood Street side. He used to be a shine boy in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, particularly a man by the name of Fuqua--did you see any people dressed in janitorial uniforms pass by?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, I seen some men walk down the street there and look in the ramp and they walked on.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were they coming from?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe they were coming from the east.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what direction?

Mr. VAUGHN. From Pearl--towards Harwood.

Mr. HUBERT. They just passed by?

Mr. VAUGHN. They would have hesitated for just a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would just have to estimate--just an estimate--I would say it was probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been possible for anyone to enter the basement who was approaching the Main Street ramp from Pearl Street or the Western Union direction, while the Pierce car was exiting?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't believe it would.

Mr. HUBERT. And why do you say that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Because--due to the fact--the time, the period of time--like I said, I had a view of the ramp from the period of time the car actually come out, and I waved it on and walked back to the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know, of course, that Ruby says that's the way he got in?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion about that statement?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You think he got in some other way?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know definitely, but I'll say he didn't come in at the ramp. How he got in--that, I don't know, but I know--I don't believe that he came in the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and I think you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while you were there?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, what do you mean by that?

Mr. HUBERT. That's the reasonable doubt test, you see.

Mr. VAUGHN. You mean as far as I am concerned--as far as what I think about it, that I definitely do not think the man come down that ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. But I was testing the strength of your view.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I don't quite understand or follow you?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, here's what I had in mind--I'll put it this way--do you have the moral conviction that Jack Ruby did not enter the basement through the Main Street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way?

Mr. VAUGHN. So far as the knowledge I have of it--no, sir--I do not. I think if the question is that you think I would convict him on the doubt--of the knowledge that I have that he did not enter that ramp--yes, sir, I would.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, as far as you are concerned?

Mr. VAUGHN. As far as I am concerned--yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man who turned out to be a police mechanic?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?

Mr. VAUGHN. Tom Chabot [spelling] C-h-a-b-o-t--I don't think I can spell it actually--anyway, Chabot.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he enter the basement?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad car and started into the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. How much earlier was it, and earlier than what?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was, I would say--it was approximately--just an estimate, it would be somewhere around 10 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man Chabot went into the basement about an hour and 20 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. VAUGHN. Somewhere around there--like I said--it would strictly be an estimate on the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened--he tried or he went through?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he pulled up in a city squad car and I told him I couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the car out and he parked it on Main Street, which would be actually east toward Pearl Street from--it would be on my right from the entrance or exit there--it would be on the right. He parked there and he got out and he come back and he come back up where I was standing inside the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of course, I had known Chabot ever since I had been there. He's married to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, "I've got to check the parking situation in the basement."

He said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about 5:30--and so I told him to go ahead, due to the fact that I knew it was Sunday--I seen him driving a squad car--I thought possibly maybe they had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so I told him to go ahead, and I seen him walk down in there--I was standing, and he was standing in my view--I could see him, and he walked down there and I got the view when he was talking to Sergeant Dean, and in 2 or 3 minutes he had come back up. He stopped there and chatted with me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, after I had stepped back in there when Lieutenant Pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, I would say, not over 3 minutes I heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," and so--I turned around and glanced--I couldn't see anything--all I could see was an outline of a few figures at the bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. You turned then so that your back was to Main Street and you were looking around?

Mr. VAUGHN. I was standing to a side view--I turned like this and looked right just like this a little way.

Mr. HUBERT. You looked over your shoulder?

Mr. VAUGHN. I didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that I heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud enough to actually be a shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, at that time there was just mass confusion.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody say, "Here he comes," and turned and looked back.

Mr. VAUGHN. No; sir--as far as any movement on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically, did you see any move forward?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you looking when you heard the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. When I heard the shot I was looking back outside the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. Onto Main Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight then--you were standing there facing Main Street?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or a few feet inside the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard somebody holler, "Here he comes," you glanced over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then turned back?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you heard the shots?

Mr. VAUGHN. Then I heard the shots.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you turned to look down the basement after you heard "Here he comes," you did not see Jack Ruby down there?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, no--like I said--the only view I had was--there were so many people in there where it was just the very people on the edge--their backs were to me.

Mr. HUBERT. After you heard the shot, what did you do?

Mr. VAUGHN. There was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your post?

Mr. VAUGHN. I stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite a crowd beginning to collect outside--I stayed back inside and I drawed my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried to come out, because actually I didn't know what had happened, and just immediately after that I seen some of them scuffling down there and I seen a hand--several people scuffling--and I seen part of a hand sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all I could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the ramp. Of course, he was in civilian clothes, I couldn't tell who he was, and just as he started, I guess he had taken very few steps from the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like and almost knocked him down. Still, they were far enough from me that I couldn't actually tell who it was. And, so, in a minute this reserve let him pass and he come on up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the reserve was?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't. There were so many of those reserves you know who some of them are and some of them you don't.

Mr. HUBERT. The reserves let him go and he came up the ramp?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was Detective E. O. Burgess.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you let him out?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, he didn't go out. He just come up and helped me at top of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions or orders?

Mr. VAUGHN. No. I asked him, I said, "What happened?" And he said, "He's been shot."

I said, "Who shot him?" And he said--well, he understood it was a reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately after that Captain Talbert, Capt. C. E. Talbert come up the ramp and he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, I believe, it was Sergeant Everett--I'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to write anybody's name on that did try to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody try to leave?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up here with WFAA--Dallas Morning News by the name of Millican. I asked him his name. He wrote his name down and I asked him what he had seen. He said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually after the shooting happened.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he identify himself?

Mr. VAUGHN. As I recall, with a press card, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not real positive about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an incident in which a TV man by the name of Jim Turner was involved? He had got out and came back in.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, there was two men that went out during the time before the shooting actually happened?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean after the shooting. Let me see if I can refresh your memory in this way--a WBAP-TV man went out to get some equipment, apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man Turner to identify him to you; do you recall that incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. I recall this--there was, like I said earlier, there was two men that went out and got some camera equipment.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said "earlier" you mean before the shot?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly after I was stationed on the ramp, I would say right around 10 o'clock. They went out and got some camera equipment. I watched them as they went across the street, the car was parked on Main Street, and then the same two men--I made definitely sure of that, and when they come back in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--I don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of Main Street and he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the county, and after the shooting, if I am not mistaken, the same man came back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in the ramp--I would not let him in. I told him definitely that nobody could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and I said, "I'm sorry, I can't let you back in," but he had gone back in carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down the ramp, and the next thing I knew he come back from the outside, immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and I told him--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like John Carradine, do you remember that actor, John Carradine, with a wrinkled face?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a TV man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him and the TV man said, "No, I can't identify you."

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that there was one person who came a little later after the shooting who wanted to see Ruby?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes--this was after--oh, I would say it was approximately an hour or almost an hour after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that man was?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he look like?

Mr. VAUGHN. He was a great big fellow. Now, I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you he wanted to see Ruby?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he walked up and I overheard the conversation, if I recall, with one of the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and I overheard the conversation--he said he was an employee of Jack Ruby's. When I heard that--we was all standing around there--I went and asked him and he asked me if lieutenant, let me see, I don't remember the lieutenant's name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and I told him I didn't know. He said, "Well, I am an employee of Jack Ruby's," and he said, "I would like to talk to lieutenant--" I believe he said Cunningham--I'm not real sure; I'm not positive now. Anyway, I asked him then what the deal was and he said, "He just needed to talk to him," and I felt possibly--by that time I had found out actually that Jack Ruby had shot him, and I felt possibly maybe someone wanted to talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and I went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and I called the homicide bureau and told Detective Boyd--I don't recall if he is the one that answered the phone, but I told whoever it was what the circumstances was, and Detective Boyd come down to the basement and he started searching this man and I helped him search him for any kind of a concealed weapon he might have and I turned him over to him and I left. I don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of Jack's.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a heavy man, you say?

Mr. VAUGHN. He was quite a big man.

Mr. HUBERT. How old would he be?

Mr. VAUGHN. I would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his complexion?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he was fair.

Mr. HUBERT. How tall was he?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, he was about 6 foot 3 or 4--he was a tall man, but I believe he was heavier.

Mr. HUBERT. Heavier than who?

Mr. VAUGHN. Heavier than me.

Mr. HUBERT. What would you say he weighed?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say he weighed around 250.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he bald or balding?

Mr. VAUGHN. Not that I recall--he had quite a bit of hair.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe--the best I remember I believe it was black.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had a limp or not?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby was supposed to have passed by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. I went immediately, after I took this man to the basement, I seen another officer that was right there in the basement and I asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so I run on up to 511, which is the patrol office, and Lieutenant Pierce was up there and I asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go back to the squad, and that was about, I would say, somewhere around 1 o'clock, and I went on back out and I answered a call, I believe I answered a couple of calls, and I answered one out in East Dallas and while I was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to the people, they called--I heard a call for me to call 401, at Parkland Hospital, which is the officer's room out there at Parkland, and so I went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and I got back to the car and went to the phone and I called. I called Parkland Hospital and talked to Captain Talbert, and Captain Talbert asked me if I had seen Jack Ruby that day and I said, "No." He asked me if I knew him and I said, "Well, I know him to the point that probably if I had met the man on the street in a crowd I wouldn't have recognized him, but to the point that if I had some occasion to talk to him, I believe I would," and he asked me if I had seen him and so I told him "No," and I began to wondering about it and I went on and checked out of service and went to the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Captain Talbert did not tell you that there was some idea that Ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in that way?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he may have possibly stated something like that--I don't recall, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and worrying about it.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, actually when he asked me if I had seen Ruby that morning--I don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he is supposed to have come in or anything else. Well, I went on, like I said, and I checked out and I went to 511 where I think I seen Lieutenant Pierce and he told me that that's how Ruby said he had come into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, I would say it was somewhere around 2 or 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who Ruby had told that to?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know now who he told it to?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I understood, of course--I don't know definitely--I understood he told Mr. Sorrels and Detective McMillon and several more--I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Pat Dean about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Dean asked me one time if I knew what Ruby had said, I recall, and this was sometime later, and I said I knew what he had said--that that's how he had gotten in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean tell you that Ruby had told him that?

Mr. VAUGHN. I don't believe he did, Mr. Hubert, I can't recall exactly what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the event did you have this conversation with Dean?

Mr. VAUGHN. Oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that afternoon, or maybe the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he approach you about it or did you approach him?

Mr. VAUGHN. I actually don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your superior officers question you about whether Jack could have gotten by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. That was on Sunday it happened, and I worked Monday, and I think it was--I talked to Lieutenant Pierce some, I believe, and Tuesday I was off and so Tuesday morning around 9 o'clock they called me at home and told me to come in and write a report and so I got up and went down there and wrote a report Tuesday, and I was off Wednesday. So Wednesday night I was supposed to be off Thursday at that particular time--I had three days off that week, and I think it was a holiday fell in there somewhere--Thanksgiving is what it was--and Wednesday night they called me at home, Lieutenant Pierce called me. I don't recall that it was--whether it was 7 or 8 or 9 o'clock, and told me to come in and go to work Thursday morning, that Chief Fisher wanted to talk to me, and I came in and went ahead and went to work and I worked until, I believe, 8:30 or 9 and I got a call to report to 511 on a mark-out.

Mr. HUBERT. What is a mark-out?

Mr. VAUGHN. That means you are out of service. The dispatcher will show you being somewhere else, and so when I went up there, Chief Fisher, Captain Talbert, and Lieutenant Pierce, I believe, was all sitting in this little assembly room and they were talking, and I didn't say anything else--I didn't say anything to them, and so within a few minutes Chief Fisher asked me as I recall, now maybe I'm a little bit wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if I was ready to go up to his office and I said "Yes," and we went on up to Chief Fisher's office which is up on the third floor and I was accompanied by Lieutenant Pierce and Captain Talbert, so Chief Fisher questioned me about it quite extensively, and I told him the exact story that I had in my report and I have told you, and then he asked me--he said he didn't doubt my integrity, but would I take a lie detector test and I told him--yes, I would take a lie detector test and I went in and Detective Bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so I went in and took the test.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time that Daniels had said that he had seen somebody go by you?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir--I had contacted Daniels, of course--I didn't actually clear my conversation when I talked to him about it--I had contacted Daniels--I remember seeing him there, after personally knowing Daniels--I knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and so----

Mr. HUBERT. When did you contact Daniels?

Mr. VAUGHN. It was on Monday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did so, I suppose, because you knew of the possibility that was being talked about that Ruby had passed by you and you thought that he was there and he might know?

Mr. VAUGHN. I knew he was there--I remember seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I called him at home--he has a business down in South Dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the President's funeral, and I called him at home and I believe his wife answered the phone, and I asked her if I could speak to him, and so he come to the phone and I told him who I was and I said, "I remember seeing you down there yesterday, and I just want to ask you something." I said, "Do you recall this car--this Lieutenant Pierce's car coming out of the basement?" And he said, "Yes, sure." And, I says, "Well, did you see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" He said, "No, definitely not; there was nobody." And, I told him, I said, "That's the way Ruby said he got in," and I thanked him and left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out to--after the Pierce car had passed through?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't recall asking him that.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody?

Mr. VAUGHN. He said there definitely--he said there was definitely nobody went down that ramp but that car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go through.

Mr. HUBERT. And was the conversation such that when he told you that, you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever?

Mr. VAUGHN. The only part I was asking him about was the point when that car come out, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was limited to whether anybody came through while the Pierce car was going through?

Mr. VAUGHN. That was the only part that my intention was to ask him about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the rest of the time I was in the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by Fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of disciplinary action taken against you by the police department?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; I had my efficiency cut.

Mr. HUBERT. That's one thing I am interested in--tell us about that.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I got cut four points.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a drastic cut?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, for me it was. Of course, in some cases it isn't.

I mean, it's just all according to----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like to know.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally for the last 3 or 4 years I have always carried a 90 efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and I got cut four points on one certain thing, which I'm not familiar enough on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but I went up to the civil service board when I got my efficiency and checked to see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your efficiency. My efficiency was changed by Chief Fisher. It was cut from a 90 to an 86 and on one particular phase of how they grade you--on dependability.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because of the Ruby incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I didn't think--I thought possibly it was over the Ruby incident and I went and talked to one of my supervisors and I didn't feel that I should have had a cut on my efficiency under the circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually proved that Jack came in that way.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, he said he didn't know what I was cut for.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that, by the way, what is his name?

Mr. VAUGHN. I believe that was Sergeant Jennings, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. You know you talked to Fisher about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, I was going to see Chief Fisher, as a matter of fact I got the lieutenant to talk to Chief Fisher and he told Chief Fisher that I did want to see him, and at that time Chief Fisher was involved in some other kind of business he had--I don't know exactly what it was, but he was busy. Then Lieutenant Pierce told me that I shouldn't go see Fisher at this time. He said, "If you will wait, I will talk to Fisher."

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a year or a month or what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Six months.

Mr. HUBERT. And this was made about January 1, I guess?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I think the efficiency ends in the month of January.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Rio Pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had spoken to Fisher or not?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, I talked to Lieutenant Pierce, I believe it was a couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had had a chance to talk to Chief Fisher, and my understanding I got from him was that Chief Fisher said it was for letting Tom Chabot in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you got the impression from Pierce, that the efficiency cut was not related to the Ruby incident, but rather to the Chabot incident?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; to Chabot.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we need a bit more information as to the severity of this cut. Could you give us examples of what point cut they give for what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, you might get 1 or 2 points--I've seen them get cut as high as 13 points.

Mr. HUBERT. For what?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, just for different things.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what would be--what would a four cut be the result of?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, normally a 4 point cut wouldn't be too severe, because actually--well, I had a 90. I got cut 4 points--I got an 86, which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like I said, under the circumstances and the things I felt it was severe because I didn't quite understand it--that was the point on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, were you in the police building on the 23d--the day before?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I was there in and out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the police building on the 22d of November?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby around there then?

Mr. VAUGHN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to that assembly when Oswald was brought down to see the press?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I don't know what time that was, but at that particular time we were working days and we got off at 3 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you three statements which have been marked for identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry in two pages and I have marked it for identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5334, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name on it and since it has a second page, I have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of you by FBI Agents Lester and Larson, dated December 1, 1963, and for purposes of identification, I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5335, Deposition of Roy Vaughn." I have signed my name on that and I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of you by Agents Hughes and Dallman, dated December 19, 1963, and I have marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964. Exhibit 5336, Deposition of Roy Vaughn," and I have signed my name below that and I have marked the second, third and fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

I think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that you wish to make in the document, Exhibit 5334, the letter to Chief Curry?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the document that has been identified as Exhibit 5335, the FBI interview on December 1, 1963?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you take the document and tell me what changes or what errors there are or modifications you wish to make?

Mr. VAUGHN. This part----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are pointing to the second page, the second paragraph which is numbered with a (1)--what do you have to say about that?

Mr. VAUGHN. The time was probably 10:15 and they've got 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only thing you find in that?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What other things?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, in No. 6.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the paragraph that is numbered with (6) on page two?

Mr. VAUGHN. It says, "Thomas Carbet, known to Vaughn to be a city employed mechanic, was on business of the Dallas Police Department in a squad car. In connection with Carbet, Vaughn invited him down"----

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they have Carbet, is that wrong?

Mr. VAUGHN. Actually, it's Chabot, but I think that's what I told him, but that's what I meant.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Chabot, when you actually told him Carbet. The man who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, Paragraph 6 on page two, was really Chabot, is that right?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir [spelling]; C-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what I have--what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the parking situation.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite get what you said is wrong with that paragraph.

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, that would be all right as far as the way it is written--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you any comment about it?

Mr. VAUGHN. Well, now, the comment was, as I recall, I did tell the two FBI agents that were there that Chabot advised me that he had to check the parking situation in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is omitted from that paragraph?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes; that is omitted from that paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to page three and it is the last long paragraph on that page.

Mr. VAUGHN. And it says that, "Approximately 11 a.m. a large crowd"--I don't know how they would specify a large crowd--I said I suppose it was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you wish to correct that?

Mr. VAUGHN. I want to change the large--from large to that.

Mr. HUBERT. You wish to change "large crowd at 11 a.m." to "about half a dozen people"?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other corrections or modifications on that document?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have read it through and you believe it correctly represents the content and substance of the interview?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now; I ask you whether you have any comments or changes or corrections with reference to the FBI report which has been identified as Exhibit 5336?

Mr. VAUGHN. No; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct altogether?

Mr. VAUGHN. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Vaughn, would you be willing to state that if a person were to read the three reports that we have identified as Exhibits 5334, 5335, and 5336, and if he were to read your deposition here, that he would have the truth so far as you know?

Mr. VAUGHN. Yes, sir; I would.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. VAUGHN. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

Mr. VAUGHN. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE JAMES C. WATSON

The testimony of Detective James C. Watson was taken at 10 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of James C. Watson of the Dallas Police Department. Mr. Watson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress 137 and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Watson. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in particular, as to you, Mr. Watson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Watson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the Staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness may waive his 3-day written notice and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WATSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. WATSON. James C. Watson. James Colvin Watson.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. WATSON. 43.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WATSON. 2743 Clover Lane, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Clover Lane. What is your occupation and how long have you been so occupied?

Mr. WATSON. City detective. I have been with the police department 15 years, going on 16 years. Been a detective about 8 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were your particular assignment and duties on November 22, 23, and 24 the same as today? That is to say, same department?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. WATSON. Auto theft bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally, of course, members of the auto theft bureau would have nothing to do with homicide and so forth?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; they just took men out of each bureau to help out when they had the lunch out at The Trade Mart.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were simply assigned to assist in the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were on duty that day?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked for purposes of identification what appears to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated November 22, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, consisting of two pages and for the purpose of identification I mark the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5102, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I have signed my name. That inscription is in the right-hand margin of the letter, and on each page I have placed my initials at the bottom of the page. I think you have read that statement?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that statement correct? Does it contain the truth?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or deletions or additions that you wish to make concerning that letter?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; only difference in that one that apparently either FBI or Mr. Scott wrote, I show that I was in Jack Ruby's place, and it says, "several" there, and I have only seen him one time prior to the time this happened, and I only saw him after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it would be proper for you--when we get to discussing the FBI documents that you repeat that comment.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for the purposes of identification a letter to Chief Curry dated November 30th, 1963, by C. C. Wallace and P. G. McCaghren concerning an interview evidently with you. For the purposes of identification I mark that with the following inscription, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5103, deposition of J. C. Watson," and I sign my name. That consists of one page. Have you read that, sir?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. That's correct; isn't it?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document I would like you to sign your name below mine on both documents and initial the second page, as I have done.

Mr. WATSON. Initial those pages?

Mr. HUBERT. No; sign your name below mine. Right there. That's right.

Mr. WATSON. And initial the second page?

Mr. HUBERT. Initial the second page just below my initial. While we are on that second page I notice that is a photostatic copy and--the signature, is that yours?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, then, would you sign your name below mine on the document marked Exhibit 5103? Now, I show you a document purporting to be a report by FBI Agent Scott of an interview of you which took place, apparently, on November 25, 1963, and for the purposes of identification, I have marked that document in the right-hand margin with the following inscription, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5104. Deposition of J. C. Watson. Leon D. Hubert, Jr." I wonder if you would sign below my name so as the record may show that we are talking about the same document?

Mr. WATSON. This is the one?

Mr. HUBERT. You are going to have an opportunity to make the correction. Just for the purpose of identification put your name on it. Now, as to this document, which has now been signed by both of us and identified as 5104, I believe you have some comments to make?

Mr. WATSON. I believe--I thought it was, main letter, but it was my second letter that states that I only saw Jack Ruby one time and the FBI letter taken from it where they show that I had saw him on several occasions. I only saw him one time. We went in there and stayed 10 or 15 minutes. I think we had a cup of coffee and sat and talked to him a little bit, and that is the only occasion I have seen the man before I saw him in the basement after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that----

Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3 to 4 years, in my estimate. I would say 2 to 4 years. I couldn't be sure. It has been a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did see him, did you recognize him?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I believe I would have recognized him in his place and I did recognize him after the shooting only because I saw two or three people call his name. Then I did recognize him.

Mr. HUBERT. If you will step over here and have a look at this mockup here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it, there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door. There is the flat part of the ramp. There are the two inclines back there. This is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the parking area to the ramp between Main and Commerce. I have also here a chart which I have marked for purposes of identification, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5105, deposition of J. C. Watson." And I have put below it my name and I will ask you to sign your name so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. Now, looking at the mockup first, I would like you to show me on the mockup where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in.

Mr. WATSON. I took a position--you want it here, or over here?

Mr. HUBERT. I want you to fix it.

Mr. WATSON. Generally right here [indicating]. And I had more or less, until we--just previous to the time they brought Oswald down, I did take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking--is this right? Right here?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle.

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the spot which you have indicated on the mockup?

Mr. WATSON. That is the general place.

Mr. HUBERT. The general place.

Mr. WATSON. More or less milling around from there over to here, 5 or 6 feet until right at the----

Mr. HUBERT. The position I have marked with the circle is the position you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map, "Position of J. C. Watson at time of shooting," and I have encircled it and connected it with a line into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you were standing in at the moment of the shooting. As I understand your testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position?

Mr. WATSON. Well, that would have been previous, until the time they were bringing him down. Right at the moment, the only difference would be we were probably back--I would probably have been back, I would say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner, and one more officer, I think, to my left, and more or less--we moved forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. We didn't move over 2 or 3 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. You want to make this comment about the position I have marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps 2 or 3 feet--

Mr. WATSON. Two feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Two feet back in the direction of Main Street?

Mr. WATSON. Yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we tend to come forward and kind of----

Mr. HUBERT. So, I am going to mark another circle then about 2 feet. This is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to show your position prior to the shooting.

Mr. WATSON. They bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move forward a little, just close in a little.

Mr. HUBERT. I have written on the map and encircled the following language. "Position of J. C. Watson prior to the shooting." I'll connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding of the situation?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what caused you to move forward in that way?

Mr. WATSON. Just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just move forward a little, just to keep in line.

Mr. HUBERT. As Oswald was coming out?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that accounts for the fact that your position at the moment of shooting was a little further towards Oswald than it would have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about 2 feet?

Mr. WATSON. Well, I would say not necessarily toward him, just toward the direction he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. He was going; yes. All right, sir. Do you remember who was on your left? What officer was on your left?

Mr. WATSON. I believe Blackie Harrison was on my left, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any officer on your right?

Mr. WATSON. Not between me and the corner. I don't know whether there was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think there was only the two of you, you and Blackie Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Well, there had been one or two others over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Right. I don't--only you and Harrison keeping back the press from the Main Street ramp area?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Only you two?

Mr. WATSON. Of course, the press was actually in the basement area, and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside on the ramp area.

Mr. HUBERT. I'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong figure in which I am writing in the middle "Area A," and I ask you if it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in front of?

Mr. WATSON. Just practically; yes. I was in front of, and to the right of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that area?

Mr. WATSON. In that "Area A"?

Mr. HUBERT. Back of you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Not many.

Mr. HUBERT. Not any at all?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said they surged forward?

Mr. WATSON. They are over from this corner, over to about--some point right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in this area right here [indicating]. That----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a line with the numbers "1," to "2," encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress----

Mr. WATSON. From that point "1" over to just past this corner was the only area that I know of any photographers being in. That is where they were supposed to be. They were all lined on the rail, but at the moment this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. That is what makes me come forward a little.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you came forward because of pressure from people behind?

Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me.

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody at all in here [indicating].

Mr. WATSON. I think one or two, but no officers behind me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby come forward?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see Ruby?

Mr. WATSON. I saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately at my feet in front of me after the shooting. Did not see--couldn't have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the jail office. Four or five detectives completely smothering him. I was standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. Couldn't tell who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first become aware that there was a shooting?

Mr. WATSON. What do you mean? What are you--How are you going to pinpoint it----

Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the shot?

Mr. WATSON. When I heard the shot; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see anybody lunge forward?

Mr. WATSON. I glanced at Captain Fritz. I looked at Captain Fritz, just looked at the expression on his face, and I looked at Oswald. Second time I had seen him, just the expression. I noticed the officers behind him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and I heard the shot up there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your head was turned in the direction of the jail office and Ruby apparently came up from your left?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. From the direction on your left?

Mr. WATSON. But, your head was turned away from the area?

Mr. WATSON. Glaring spotlight. We looked--straight ahead, to the right, wouldn't look at the bright lights.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you don't know where he came from?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I assume where he come from but I don't know where he come from. I know where he had to come from.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back to the statement that you made about "Area A," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the incline begins?

Mr. WATSON. Yes; just a flat place there. Starts back somewhere, like you say, back here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You're quite sure there was nobody behind you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I wouldn't have left anyone behind us. I mean, we were in a position----

Mr. HUBERT. But I am talking about news media?

Mr. WATSON. That is what I mean, I am facing this way and all the news media was on my left.

Mr. HUBERT. You had your back to the Main Street and----

Mr. WATSON. My back to that----

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody behind you at all?

Mr. WATSON. Nobody behind me except officers at the top of the ramp, that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. And Blackie Harrison was to your left? How much space between you and Harrison?

Mr. WATSON. Well, sir; he and I were the only two in the ramp opening, in that distance from the corner to here [indicating]. I believe we were the only two and I believe----

Mr. HUBERT. Nobody behind you?

Mr. WATSON. And I believe an officer or two in here [indicating]. I don't remember moving around so much. I mean we didn't take stationary positions designated. Now, we just took positions as we saw fit before they came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me mark another circle here, sir. What I am marking is the approximate position of Harrison.

Mr. WATSON. I'd say 3- or 4-foot over.

Mr. HUBERT. Right there [indicating]?

Mr. WATSON. That's right. I would say he would have been a little closer than that.

Mr. HUBERT. I am writing on the map, "Position of Blackie Harrison at time of shooting," and circling that and connecting it with a small circle showing the approximate position of Blackie Harrison. That is your best estimate of where he was?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He was also facing in the direction of the Commerce Street--with his back toward Main Street?

Mr. WATSON. I would think so. I mean he could have turned a little, you know. I talked to him a couple of times. He was standing parallel just like I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever glance towards Main Street during the time you were there?

Mr. WATSON. I glanced toward--I'm sure, a couple of times. I remember the car going out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who was driving the car?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir; I don't know that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Lieutenant Rio Pierce?

Mr. WATSON. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was either in it or driving it, yes. I saw him with the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have difficulty getting through the people?

Mr. WATSON. Yes. At what point up there?

Mr. HUBERT. At the point that you were standing?

Mr. WATSON. I would think that there would probably have been two or three reporters here [indicating], and I am sure there were at this point. There was someone that was kind of in the way, and they had to move them, I think. And possibly right on that edge, I think all of the press were either asked or knew to get back at about that time. I think they all got over the rail about that time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been standing in this position before the shooting?

Mr. WATSON. We had been in there somewhere 20 or 25 minutes. I'd say it must have been 35, 30 or 35 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you think that if a man had been coming down the Main Street ramp just 30 seconds to a minute before the shooting you would have heard his footsteps?

Mr. WATSON. I don't think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Why not?

Mr. WATSON. Lots of noise going on there. Another thing, I am kind of hard of hearing in my left ear. That is the reason, I think that I can't hear some of the things that were said--I got it in the Navy.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody at all?

Mr. WATSON. No; I just remember glancing----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish my question. Anybody coming down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you hear them?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you like to have a seat? Do you have anything else you would like to add?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider that everything that you know about this matter is contained in the several reports and letters that have been identified this morning by you?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And in your deposition?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing else you know about?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing has been omitted, and there are no corrections you want to make?

Mr. WATSON. Nothing but the FBI where it says "several". There is "one".

Mr. HUBERT. We have already accepted those. That has been noted, of course.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff prior to this deposition this morning?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That includes me, too.

Mr. WATSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you so much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF G. E. WORLEY

The testimony of G. E. Worley was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you the procedure and then I will give you an opportunity to ask questions and so forth. I want to introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Commission was set up under the Executive Order 11130, which is an order issued by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137.

Pursuant to this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has promulgated a set of rules, and in accordance with those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Worley.

I want to explain a little bit to you about the general nature of what we are doing here. Now, I think as you probably understand, the Commission has been set up for the purpose of ascertaining and evaluating and reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts and all the facts that might relate to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We are particularly interested in taking your deposition today, Mr. Worley, because we want to talk to you about what you know in connection with the events that may have led up to and followed the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

However, that does not preclude any information that you may have concerning any other people. I mean concerning the death of President Kennedy.

I want to explain this to you, also, that you have been asked to appear here today by virtue of a general request which is made by our general counsel, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, and this request was made in the form of a letter to Chief Curry.

Now, actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. However, the rules also provide that you can waive this notice, and I want to ask now whether you would like us to issue the notice or whether it is acceptable to you to waive the notice?

Mr. WORLEY. It is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you are entitled to have counsel before this Commission at this deposition, and I see that you don't appear here with counsel this evening, and I presume it is because you don't desire one. But feel free to tell us, because there are many people that have appeared here with counsel, and it is perfectly acceptable to us.

Mr. WORLEY. I don't think I need one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you if you have any particular questions that you want to ask me?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I would have to say, after reading that report now, that report from the FBI is not very good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you this. Then I would like to administer the oath to you so that I can start to take your testimony. I will first hand you the report. I will mark it for identification and hand you the report and ask you to make any corrections. Actually, that is going to be about the first thing. I want to get your name and so forth. Would you raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORLEY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, sir, would you state for the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. WORLEY. Gano E. Worley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Worley?

Mr. WORLEY. February the 3d, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?

Mr. WORLEY. 835 N. Ewing, Apt. D.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. WORLEY. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. WORLEY. I work for Lone Star Gas Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them?

Mr. WORLEY. I am building operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you worked for Lone Star Gas Co.?

Mr. WORLEY. Eleven years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you also have some connection with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WORLEY. Dallas Police Reserve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve?

Mr. WORLEY. Four years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark for identification three documents which I have in front of me. I am going to mark for identification Exhibit No. 5047, and I have also written on there, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64." This document which I have marked purports to be a report of an interview that you had with FBI Agents Leo L. Robertson and Paul S. Scott on December 3, 1963. Let me ask you if you have had an opportunity to read this over before coming in here?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections or changes that you think ought to be made in this?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. If you will read this one right here [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to a letter which I also have in my hand?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. To Chief Curry from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular part, if you will tell me what you have in mind?

Incidentally, I have marked this exhibit which you are referring to, a letter to Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, purporting to be prepared by you.

Actually, this is a Xerox copy of what would appear to be another copy of an actual letter which purports to bear your signature?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked this, "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Worley, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5048." Now, is there some correction or addition or change that you would make in what has been marked Exhibit 5047, the FBI interview?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, right here, if you will see it says----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to read it so we will get it in the record?

Mr. WORLEY. All right. "Worley reported to Central Police Station at 9 a.m. on November the 24th, 1963, and he was assigned by the regular police sergeant." That is wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who assigned you?

Mr. WORLEY. Reserve police sergeant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mr. WORLEY. Croy. That has "Regular Police Sergeant Troy".

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to take my pen and correct it? Write in what you think is necessary to correct it.

Mr. WORLEY. [Makes correction.] I tell you, this is more of an accurate description of what I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This Exhibit 5048?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. Not this one, because----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter is more accurate than the FBI report?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; that tells exactly from the time I arrived at the police station to the time I left, and every move that I made in between.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we are talking about Exhibit 5048, which is your letter of November 26, 1963, to Chief Curry. Are there any corrections or changes that you would make, or additions that you would make in that statement, that you can think of right now?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it states that I met Jack Ruby sometime when working with squad 105, 5 or 6 months ago. That was over a year ago instead of 5 or 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us how it is that you now think it was over a year ago? What is the basis for that change?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, the officer that I worked with on that beat, I talked to after that, and he hadn't worked that squad in over a year, and it didn't seem like as long to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. Regular Officer J. R. Sales.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you check? Is there any police record made of when you work a particular beat?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you checked those records to be--to determine when it would have been that you last worked with that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him whether he had checked the records to determine that?

Mr. WORLEY. No; but the reason that I imagine he stated that is because he is working another squad now and he knew that it had been approximately over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to feel free to make any changes that you want in here, but I might suggest, and please understand that I want you to if you don't agree with it, I don't want you to do it any other way, but it seems to me from what you have said that an accurate statement would include something to the effect that "I am not sure now of when it was, because I talked with the officer and he said such and such, but I have not checked my records, and I don't know if he has."

Now, I would suggest that you make some change like that, if you are agreeable.

Mr. WORLEY. Well, that is agreeable with me, because I didn't check the records to see exactly when the last time I worked on that district.

But I did talk to the regular officer and he said that he hadn't worked that district in over a year, so one way or the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take the time on that particular exhibit and write down something that would reflect accurately what happened, on there. You want me to write it for you?

Mr. WORLEY. On that last sheet, the exhibit, the next one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Worley Exhibit No. 5049.

Mr. WORLEY. This one corrects that, and it says it on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. It is right down at the bottom. Now, I don't see it on here.

Mr. WORLEY. [Reading.] I would have swore. I read that over a little while ago. I guess I didn't. I'm sorry, it is not in this one. I knew I seen it in one of them. It is in the police report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is in the FBI report. Well, these are true and accurate copies, are they not?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have the letters that you gave?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I am referring to Exhibits 5048 and 5049. Now, is Exhibit 5047 the interview report, as it is corrected with respect to Reserve Officer Croy, is that an accurate report of the interview which you had with those people?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; but there was some of the things that they had in here are not what I gave them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They aren't? All right. What do they have written down there that you didn't tell them?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, just like it was signed. It says Regular Police Sergeant Troy, and it should have been Reserve Police Sergeant Croy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have made and incorporated a correction on there, haven't you?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, insofar as that portion now reads, that is the way the interview actually went?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, then again it says here [pointing] "some stop right there * * * to the information desk in the basement to send the other Reserve officers to the basement parking area"--I don't see that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. WORLEY. I said to the basement detail room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you want to make a correction on there?

Mr. WORLEY. [Correcting.] I believe it is all right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Exhibit 5047 as you have corrected it then accurately reflects what you told the FBI agents, would you initial and date the corrections that you have made on there?

Mr. WORLEY. You want me just to initial this down here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put initials where you have made corrections and a date afterwards.

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the same thing with that one up there.

Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you also sign it down at the bottom and date it with your regular signature?

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if these other copies that I have given you here, Worley Exhibits Nos. 5048 and 5049, are true and accurate copies of letters which you sent to Chief Curry, I would appreciate your also signing and dating those.

Mr. WORLEY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to direct your attention to Exhibit 5048, which is a copy of a letter which you addressed to Chief Curry, and which is dated November 26, 1963. Do you remember when it was that you actually wrote this letter?

Mr. WORLEY. It was that date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was. Now how did you happen to write that letter?

Mr. WORLEY. I was instructed by Reserve Coordinator Capt. J. M. Solomon, regular police captain, to write the letter to Chief Curry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you contacted? How were you contacted by Captain Solomon?

Mr. WORLEY. By telephone to my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At your office?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you write that out in handwriting or did you have it typed, or what?

Mr. WORLEY. I wrote it out in handwriting and then had it typed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who typed it?

Mr. WORLEY. Mr. Worley's secretary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your office?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The original typed copy of that--do you recall whether that was on a letterhead stationery or anything?

Mr. WORLEY. No; just on plain paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Plain letter paper?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated here in Exhibit 5048 that you were assigned to a position on the north side of the parking area to keep any cars away from the first two parking spaces. And you said that you stood at that post until about 10 or 15 minutes before Lee Harvey Oswald was shot.

Do you recall whether when you were moved from that post an armored car had been moved or attempted to move into the ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. It was backed in the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall anything that happened with respect to that armored car?

Mr. WORLEY. They couldn't get it down in the basement. It was just backed up to it as far up in the door as they could get it, because it wouldn't clear the top to come down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you were down in the basement at your spot, do you recall whether any cars moved in or moved out of the parking area in the garage in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. From the time that I was posted out there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. WORLEY. Until when?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until the time that you were removed from that post, did any traffic go in and out of there?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was police cars coming in and out all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand at that post, to your best estimate?

Mr. WORLEY. Well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it is difficult. Do you think you were there an hour?

Mr. WORLEY. I was there over an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the period that you were standing at your post, do you recall any other reserve officers being stationed also guarding particular spots in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was quite a few reserve officers down in the basement, and they searched all the cars in that basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Worley. I am going to pull out here a chart, and I think we can talk a little easier about this chart. This is a map or chart which has been prepared originally by the Dallas Police Department on a much larger scale, and we have reduced the size of it, but it is a chart of the basement area.

Now, so you understand what is happening here, over here is Commerce Street, and over here is Main Street, and there is the jail office. Harwood would be out where your hand is, and Pearl Expressway would be over here closer to me.

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you look over there at Commerce Street. You will see that there is a heavy black line?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that heavy black line represents the basement wall. The basement, according to this diagram, actually extends out under the sidewalk, so at this point approximately where the sidewalk ends there is a dotted line. Now, that represents where the wall is if you were standing out on the sidewalk and were looking at the building. That is where the wall goes up on the outside, so that actually as you look at the diagram, you ignore the dotted line when you are in the basement, because it extends all the way.

And on the side near Main Street, we have the same kind of dotted line, and have the black line. It means the same thing.

Now, will you place on the chart an "X" on the spot that you were stationed by Sergeant Croy?

Excuse me; I want to correct the record. You have stated in your letter of November 26 that Captain Arnett placed you at a point in the basement. Can you show us where Captain Arnett placed you?

Mr. WORLEY. Right here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would you put a circle around that "X"?

Mr. WORLEY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you were placed there, had the search of the basement commenced?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were placed there, were any other reserve officers stationed at any other spots in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain there during the search?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, and I am only asking for your recollection, and if you don't remember, state that, do you recall seeing anybody come over to this area marked stairs up and do anything there?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a telephone man tried to go out that stairway, and I happened to know the telephone man. I don't know what his name is, but he comes to our building frequently and works, is the reason I recognized him. And he tried to get out this door, and he was stopped by a regular officer and asked for his credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then was he allowed to go out that door?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. WORLEY. About 10 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe anybody lock that door? I am asking for your recollection?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Did you watch the search of the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch anybody search over in this area by the elevators and the stairs?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see them do? Who did you see search over in that area, if you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall any of the officers names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his rank?

Mr. WORLEY. I am not sure, but I think it was a sergeant, regular officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a regular sergeant?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him, if you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, could you tell us what he did over in that area?

Mr. WORLEY. Well, these elevator doors were closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. WORLEY. And he checked the door to see if it was locked, and it was. He couldn't even go out. He couldn't open the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at the time that he checked that door?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have a clear recollection of this?

Mr. WORLEY. That is hard to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know sometimes we have a visual image, and sometimes there is something that happened or for some reason that you know you watched this. Is there anything----

Mr. WORLEY. Well, there was people that they brought in a bunch of reserve officers in the basement from the detail room, and they came out in here and they started back in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are now sort of indicating back in the area toward Main Street underneath the sidewalk?

Mr. WORLEY. And he searched all these cars back in here to see that, I guess, that there was nobody in there. They didn't tell me, but they were searching back in here, and he just covered this back all the way to the ramp here. Then they went right on around and covered the whole parking area down in the basement back to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, those people were sort of moving in a group?

Mr. WORLEY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when this regular sergeant got over to the doorway, was that group with him?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was he alone?

Mr. WORLEY. No. I am almost positive that he was over here while they were searching back over here, and he was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, do you recall this particular officer going to the service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if at any time there was somebody in that service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any building personnel down in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I do. Porters. And I don't recall how many. I saw some porters and maids, and I am pretty sure that they were on this elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; it was standing there with the door open, and somebody told them to go on up in the building, and close that elevator off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when that was in relationship to the search of the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. It was before they searched the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was that did that?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you be able to state whether it was that officer who talked to those maids and porters? Was it the same officer, the same sergeant who also checked this door?

Mr. WORLEY. There was none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you would recognize either one of those officers if you saw them again?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you, in your mind, convinced about one sergeant than the other officer who checked the service elevator?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, are you able to explain for the record--I am not trying to trip you up or anything--I am trying to probe your recollection here--are you able to explain to us how it is that you recall that they were different officers?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Different heights?

Mr. WORLEY. No; there is nothing that would be--maybe I am thinking that they were even the same person, or different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in other words, your answer is that you just don't know if they were the same?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know. It could have been the same person or could have been two different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. Do you recall ever seeing anybody go over into this area that is marked, where it says "To engineroom", and check anything over in that area?

Mr. WORLEY. I saw them search over that way but from where I was, I couldn't tell whether they were back in here or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the search was over, do you recall if any other officers were stationed down in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. There were some more reserve officers down in the basement stationed there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark where the reserves were? Why don't you put a "R" and a circle around it where there was a reserve.

Mr. WORLEY. This is Lt. Ben McCoy, reserve officer. I stationed him there myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station him? Why don't you write "McCoy" under his name then?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett was over here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "A" in front of the circle. All right, now, any other reserve officers that you recall?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a reserve officer down here, and I don't know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "R" there and question mark under it. Were there any regular officers stationed any place in the basement?

Mr. WORLEY. There was a regular sergeant right here for quite awhile. I couldn't say approximately how long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there a half hour before Oswald was shot?

Mr. WORLEY. Oh, yes; I would say it was about maybe an hour or before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't mean for what length of time, but when did he leave that spot?

Mr. WORLEY. About an hour. I would say an hour before Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any officers being stationed by the elevators?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; there was a regular officer there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put a circle there and write "regular" under it where that man was? Now, do you recall any other regular officer?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left, that was sometime after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. Right. The armored car was backed into this ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street ramp. Do you recall whether or not any of these men had been moved?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of seeing any of these particular men in the basement at the time Lieutenant McCoy reassigned you?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes. Captain Arnett and Lieutenant McCoy and this officer were in the basement when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this officer up here?

Mr. WORLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway?

Mr. WORLEY. The next block down. This is Central Expressway, and the next block is north, northbound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you walk out?

Mr. WORLEY. Went up the south ramp by the armored car, sitting right here. And I went on this side of it, which would be--I am trying to place that. That would be east side of the armored car. Walked down the sidewalk two blocks to the corner of Commerce and Central Expressway, northbound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize Jack Ruby if you saw him?

Mr. WORLEY. Now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him then?

Mr. WORLEY. Right now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time you walked down that street, would you have recognized him if you had seen him?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't believe I would. The only time that I had ever seen the man was when I was working with squad 105, and we made the place that he owned down there. We just made a frequent call, or just stopped in there to see if there was any trouble or anything, and then went on.

I met him one night, and I had seen him when I was in there. But those places are kind of dimly lit and you don't see too much in them, and really and truly, I didn't pay too much attention to meeting him anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if any time after the armored car arrived any automobile came in or out of the basement area after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't believe so. I don't believe a car came down the ramp after that armored car was backed in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any cars drive out of the basement after the armored car came down?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see any television cameras in any area of the basement after the armored car arrived?

Mr. WORLEY. There were television cameras in the basement before that armored car arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you walked up the Commerce Street ramp, where did you see television cameras?

Mr. WORLEY. When I was assigned to the basement, in these first two stalls right here, they were putting these cameras up right behind. There is a rail that runs right along there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark the spot where the TV cameras were? Why don't you put a box?

Mr. WORLEY. Two cameras. Two or three. There was so much confusion down there that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you walked out to go up the Commerce Street ramp, do you recall what television cameras you saw?

Mr. WORLEY. Down in the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORLEY. These two cameras that were here, that had been there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any other TV cameras as you walked out? Did you see any up here by the armored car?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't recall of seeing any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, did you see any down on the ramp or in the garage area, or up on this ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicate in here that, in your letter or statement of November 30, that you saw from your position a man jump over the railing, saw a man come down the north ramp, which would be the Main Street ramp, and jump over the railing in the parking area, is that right?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before you left the basement, would you say?

Mr. WORLEY. Hour or hour and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any thought that that man was Jack Ruby?

Mr. WORLEY. It wasn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time--I notice this is the second report, letter--that was you got this letter of November 30?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I was interviewed by these two special service officers, and they took this statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to describe that man? How did that come about? Did they ask you if you saw anybody jump over a railing, or anything like that?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to the time that you prepared this letter of November 30, had you talked with anybody about having seen this man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to think carefully. After the time, did you hear anybody else say--prior to the time you drafted the letter, that he saw a man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication from Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill as to how they came to inquire about that particular man?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or about a man jumping over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. All they did is ask me if I saw anybody come down that ramp in particular. And I stated that I had seen that man come down and jump over that rail there in the basement, and he was challenged by an officer and he identified himself and the officer let him go on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me understand this then, I think your answer to me initially was that these two lieutenants asked you specifically if you saw a man jump over the railing?

Mr. WORLEY. No; asked me if I saw anybody come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. WORLEY. And then I told them about the incident of the man jumping over the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you interviewed in a room with other officers when Lieutenants Cornwall and Revill conducted this interview? Had a number of reserve officers been assembled together and they talked with them?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I was told to report to that special service office at a certain time, and there was one other officer in the room when I came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?

Mr. WORLEY. Lt. Ben McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he interviewed before you or after you?

Mr. WORLEY. He was just fixing to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?

Mr. WORLEY. Spoke to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you mention anything about this man to him?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the man coming down the ramp?

Mr. WORLEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you finished with the interview, do you remember who the next man was behind you?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time in the morning, day or night, your interview was with Revill?

Mr. WORLEY. It was, oh, I believe, November 30 was on a Saturday that I came up there. It was a Saturday, because I was off. I was at home, and I came up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the morning or afternoon?

Mr. WORLEY. It was in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether they had interviewed reserve officers, had set up appointments for reserve officers prior to Saturday?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of each reserve officer over here?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen that reserve officer since the time Oswald was shot by Ruby?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I wouldn't recognize him if I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't recognize him again when you saw him? I am talking about the reserve officer about whom you have placed a question mark on the chart. Do you have anything further that you want to tell the Commission that you think might be of any use to them?

Mr. WORLEY. I don't know of anything else that I could add to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this: Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff prior to this deposition?

Mr. WORLEY. No; I haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will make this one last general request. If anything comes to your attention which you believe could be of assistance to the Commission would you come forward with it, regardless of what your personal feelings may be and so forth?

Mr. WORLEY. Yes; I would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will appreciate that.

Mr. WORLEY. I sure would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. WORLEY. Glad I met you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice to have met you. [Add this to Worley]:

After Mr. Worley left, I realized that I neglected to get him to sign the chart that we had been using to explain the various positions in the basement, and the court reporter says that was because I was hurried. And I notice in looking at this I also neglected even when I corrected this afterward to write after Mr. Worley the date, so I will write that in now. 3-26-64. And I wrote that in a space between the word Mr. Worley and an exhibit number which I had already put on there, Exhibit 5050.

TESTIMONY OF LT. WOODROW WIGGINS

The testimony of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins was taken at 11 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Lt. Woodrow Wiggins of the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Wiggins, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution of Congress, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Wiggins. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, in particular to you, Lieutenant Wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. You have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, to wit, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made available. The rules of the Commission provide that you be entitled, if you wish, to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do so, he may waive the 3-day written notice and, so, I now ask you if you are willing to waive this 3-day written notice which otherwise you would be entitled to?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I am willing to waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. So, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your full name.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Woodrow Wiggins.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Forty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. 319 West Corning Street, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm a lieutenant on the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Eighteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been an--a lieutenant?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Since October 1, 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular department do you serve with, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I am with what is known as the service division. I have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service division and all the substations.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. Lumpkin, and over him would be----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course, Chief Curry?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the line of command between you and Chief Curry is Batchelor, Lumpkin, then Wiggins?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your particular duties?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That depends, of course. Could I quote here and say that on certain times I have different duties?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That I have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on his days off, I watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there then I am at liberty to inspect substations and do--the dispatcher's offices and the jail, wherever I may be needed.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 24, what was your situation?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was working the jail. My jail lieutenant was off that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and duties?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'm in charge of everything that goes on in the jail, and among other duties, I pass on all prisoners that are put into jail.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "pass," on them, what do you mean?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I check to see their--the arrest is legal, and that I think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail before he is placed in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to prisoners who are transferred from the city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the State deputies to come and get the prisoner?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. It is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable to come and get a prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why an exception was made in the case of Oswald?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I was never told.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, normally, it would have been Sheriff Decker's duty to come and get Oswald, is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Normally, it would have been that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason why the normal procedure was not followed?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I haven't. When I make that statement--I have surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have more men, possibly, than Sheriff Decker did. That is strictly a surmise of mine, of my own.

Mr. HUBERT. What security had you provided for Oswald within the jail itself?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail elevator. I relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a patrolman on it. And put two officers in front of Oswald's cell at all times.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 24th, or at all times since he was arrested?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, that was--the 24th, was my first day back since that time. I had been off 2 days prior to that.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you came on duty on the 24th, did you find that security which you have described, already in existence?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I found that they had one officer in front of the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. And you changed that. You took the trustee off and put an extra man on the cell?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that Oswald was moved in the course of the 24th a couple of times for interviews and so forth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I know that I received a call from the fifth floor that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for interrogation.

Mr. HUBERT. When he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the guard that you assigned?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; the guard could not take him to the interrogation room.

Mr. HUBERT. And "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. And when he is brought back, your duties and responsibilities for his custody attach to you again?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have anything to do with the search of the basement for security?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I was in and out of the basement looking it over, but I had no duties with the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Did you remain in the jail office performing your functions as to incoming prisoners?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any of the plans for removal of Oswald, or the transfer?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I knew of no plans. I had been informed by the platoon that--I believe that it was understood that he would be transferred after 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, that was----

Mr. HUBERT. No one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in connection with the transfer?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner to be removed by the city police?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not necessarily. Let me say this: that the--that the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. But, this is rare. It is--there are instances I can name. For instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they just transfer him on down to the county themselves.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those circumstances?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Each prisoner who is transferred, the card is signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is placed on his card. His property is turned over to the officer making the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this done in this way?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; in this case, they were going to take the property later.

Mr. HUBERT. Naturally, he was in the custody of Captain Fritz at the time of the transfer, isn't that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. He had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to Fritz?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. And Fritz could do what he wanted with him? Until he relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him back in your custody?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you first aware that Oswald was going to be moved in the immediate future?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When was I aware that he was en route, or----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Or, being moved to the county?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I'd say possibly a minute before the shooting occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--Captain Fritz' office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the elevator with Oswald, and I know that when I hung the phone up I looked in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in your statement you fix that moment at 11:20. How do you fix that? Do you remember now how you fixed that?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I remember looking at our clock as they came by. I don't know why, but I looked, just to be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Big electric clock on the wall there.

Mr. HUBERT. The wall that is adjacent to the ramp?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, I don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, that clock is on the wall to your right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an electric clock?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you all check it frequently?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank to get the time, but----

Mr. HUBERT. Will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, normally, and was on the day in question, the 24th?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I would say that it was possibly, I'm sure, not over 2 to 3 minutes off either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that there could be a 6 minutes difference?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No; I certainly don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I mean. In other words, you say it could be 3 minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, I see what you mean. Could be a difference of only 3 minutes. Have you ever known it to be that much off?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Not to my knowledge. I don't recall the time that I----

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir. And, now, I don't recall on any particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having set it. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your business of running the jail office?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Repeat that question. I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that the time of various events, like the time of a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the time and the entry of that time on the record is a part of your function?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you rely on that clock?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Most of the time. Sometimes I look at my watch, but most of the time I look at the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, 11:20, you have as the time you first noticed the elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that I guess they passed by?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; the time at 11:20 that I am speaking of, I remember I looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. It was 11:20 just then?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of course, that is only a matter of seconds.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, they passed by you?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. As they came down, and as they came off the elevator Captain Fritz was the first man off, and he said, "Are they ready?" And I know that then I stepped out of the door, and I don't recall whether I ever answered him or not, but I stepped out into the corridor first. If I would have answered him I am sure I have--would have told him that it was ready, but I don't recall whether I did or didn't because I presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and I know I stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the door. I stepped to the left possibly 3 or 4 feet from the door, and they passed me then.

Mr. HUBERT. On your right?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; they passed me with Oswald at that time, and had proceeded past me approximately 6 or 7 feet when the incident happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shooting at all?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but not at the time of the shooting. I saw the gun after the officers had grabbed it and had swarmed Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Describe Jack Ruby coming out of the group.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I saw a man coming out. I had no idea who it was, but, I mean, it happened so quickly I caught it in the corner of my eye, and I saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, but I didn't know at that time who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Just about what position in the crowd did he come from?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. If you were familiar with that location I could tell you exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of identifying it, I am going to mark this document as follows, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5076, deposition of Woodrow Wiggins." And I am signing my name to it, and I ask you, for the purpose of identification to sign beneath my name. Now, first of all, you--using the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, I ask you to mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a circle actually at the place where you were.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Where my position was?

Mr. HUBERT. At the time the shot was fired.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right, sir. I had come out of this door and I had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Just put a circle there.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am writing--you have marked a little mark there and I have put a circle around it and I am marking here, "Position of Wiggins at the time of the shot." And circling that, is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That is prexactly (sic) correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now on that same map would you put a mark which I am also going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can recollect it where you first saw Ruby coming out.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The spot where he was?

Mr. HUBERT. Where he was.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When I saw him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. Now, look at the mockup first and get your distances.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I have an idea or just about----

Mr. HUBERT. Would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first saw Ruby?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Approximately. I could miss this a foot or 2, you understand that?

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. Now, your cameras were over here behind the--behind this with the lights, and where I saw him, he was approximately, I'd say, about there [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking this--Lieutenant Wiggins has marked a spot in the basement area. I am putting a circle around that spot, and connecting it with a line, I am writing "Position of Ruby when seen by Wiggins." Is that correct, sir?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes. Now, this spot that I would be--that I would say to be to where I first noticed that--the movement that attracted my attention right there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. And by the time that I had time to think and look, it was over, but that is approximately the place.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. You had known Jack Ruby before this, I understand?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I have known Jack Ruby for years.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize him?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The first time that I recognized him, who it was was after they brought him into the jail office. He was on the floor still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't recall him saying anything there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him afterwards?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; I talked to you the--I talked to him the next morning. I went up to see if he was all right. This was approximately 6:45, the following morning, I went to see that he was all right. I asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "As well as could be expected." And I asked him if he was being treated all right. And he said, "Yes; they are treating me fine." And I don't recall saying anything else to him at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you--have you spoken to him since?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who called a doctor?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as I saw that I could be of no help out there, they had Ruby. They had the man, and they were surrounding--I immediately whirled, came in the office, and when I found one of my officers there, Slack, I told him to call the doctor, that Oswald had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then notice what time it was?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; I didn't. I don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Slack was where?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. He was standing right by the desk inside the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he put the call in?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, that after they brought Ruby in, then I turned and came back out the door and after they had brought Ruby and Oswald, after they had gotten him in I checked by telephone myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you speak to then?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I called one of them in the dispatcher's office, but I don't remember who I checked with.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking a document purporting to be a letter dated November 27, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these words, "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, and Exhibit 5074. Deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. I am marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview with you by special agents of the FBI, Chapoton and Smith, dated December 2, 1963, by writing in the right margin on the first page of that document the following: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5075, deposition of W. Wiggins." I am signing my name and I am placing my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. I ask you to look at these two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an opportunity to read them?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent what you know to be the truth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes; there is an error on the third page.

Mr. HUBERT. Of which one?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Of the document taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state what you consider to be the error and give us what you consider to be the truth?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. It starts on the eighth line, on the top of the third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet--" Excuse me. It is the one in front of that. The latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. Sentence reads, "In their midst, were out past him. Wiggins," and it should read, "In their midst, went out past him. Wiggins." And the next sentence----

Mr. HUBERT. I'm not sure I got that distinction.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. All right. See this? See this then should be, "Went out past him." Not, "were out past him."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the word "were," is that correct?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true. Also, the next sentence, as it is written here, "They proceeded some 6 or 7 feet from the jail office door when he, Wiggins, saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of the gun." That sentence should read, "They had proceeded some 6 or 7 feet past Wiggins when Wiggins saw a man lunge towards Oswald and he heard the report of a gun."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded 6 or 7 feet from the jail door.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Whereas, your recollection is that it was 6 or 7 feet from where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about 3 or 4 feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would be that they had proceeded about 10 to 11 feet past the jail door.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. True.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, are there any other corrections or modifications?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; rest of it is----

Mr. HUBERT. Are there errors in either of those two exhibits?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. The rest of it is as I----

Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions that you would like to correct, or----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything to be deleted?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff, other than myself?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last night, did we not?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your deposition taken tonight?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Well, we didn't discuss this last night. You and I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss it with Mr.----

Lieutenant WIGGINS. We--I didn't discuss any of this. The only thing that I discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was that the time and so forth that I would be here tonight.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. When did you get to read your statement?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. Last night. You gave your report to me last night.

Mr. HUBERT. But, we had no other discussion?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir; not on this.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in fact, there was really no interview with--even with me?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. When you speak of interview, I meant conversation. I did have conversation with you last night, but not anything pertaining to this.

Mr. HUBERT. Nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of last night and what you said today?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor, I take it, is there anything of a material nature that transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed tonight?

Lieutenant WIGGINS. I don't believe I quite understand what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. In view of the fact that you have already stated we had not discussed it, I think it answers itself, but the point I am wanting to make is there was nothing that was talked about last night that we didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked about last night.

Lieutenant WIGGINS. That's true.

TESTIMONY OF DON RAY ARCHER

The testimony of Don Ray Archer was taken at 8:20 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Don Ray Archer, isn't that correct?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Archer, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission under provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution. I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Archer, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Archer, you appear today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so wishes. Now, do you desire to waive that notice?

Mr. ARCHER. I will waive.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you stand and raise your right hand.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ARCHER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. ARCHER. Don Ray Archer.

Mr. HUBERT. And your last name is Archer?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age, sir?

Mr. ARCHER. I am 31.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. ARCHER. 2035 San Francisco, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. ARCHER. I am police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the police force of the city of Dallas?

Mr. ARCHER. Ten years, May 31.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular duty or function do you have with the police department?

Mr. ARCHER. I am a detective assigned to auto theft bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. ARCHER. My immediate superior would be Lieutenant Smart, and then Capt. J. C. Nichols, who is the head of our bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the same position and rank and duties and occupation during the period of November 22 to 24, 1963?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you stationed when you first came on duty on November 24, 1963?

Mr. ARCHER. On November 24, I reported for duty at 7 a.m., at the auto theft bureau, which is my normal procedure when I report for work.

Mr. HUBERT. Then did you go about performing your regular duties in the auto theft bureau, or were you assigned extra and other duties?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the beginning of the morning I was performing my regular duties and carrying out my assignments and making my general investigations.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in connection with routine auto thefts?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you taken from that routine of duties?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. By whom, and at what time?

Mr. ARCHER. As I recall, and as near as I can recall, and this is only approximate, about 8:40 a.m., Lieutenant Smart came into our bureau and advised us that Chief Stevenson had asked us to stand by to remain in that bureau, to await further orders, which we did. And I continued carrying on what work I could there in the office concerning my reports.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the first order you got was to remain where you were, not move out, and stand by?

Mr. ARCHER. Not to leave, that's right, and to be there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened after that?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as near as I can remember we did stay in the--in the bureau, or at least I did until, oh, I would say approximately 10:50 a.m. And that is only an approximate time because I don't remember looking and seeing the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened at that time?

Mr. ARCHER. At that time, Lieutenant Smart came in and, of course, we had been aware that the subject, Oswald, would probably be transferred that day.

Mr. HUBERT. What made you aware of this?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, for one thing, just the press itself, and quite a bit in the papers and all. We just had it in our minds that we would. Actually, nobody told me specifically that he would be, but like I say, it was in my mind. I just had that impression.

Mr. HUBERT. So, at approximately 10:50, you received orders from whom, you said?

Mr. ARCHER. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. To do what?

Mr. ARCHER. He told us to follow him and to go to the basement, which we did. We left our office and walked to the elevators, got in the elevator and then proceeded into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Which elevator did you use?

Mr. ARCHER. We used the interior elevator, of which there are two moving from the basement to the fourth floor. It is generally inside the building.

Mr. HUBERT. The public elevator? Not the jail elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. Oh, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in uniform?

Mr. ARCHER. No, no, sir; I was in civilian clothes, much as I am right now. White shirt, tie and suit.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't wear uniforms?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I am a plainclothes officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you referred to "we" indicating that there were several of you there. Who were the others? Do you remember?

Mr. ARCHER. I couldn't name you all the officers, I know Detective Clardy and Detective McMillon and Detective Dawson and Lieutenant Smart and myself were on this. We rode down in the same elevator. That's all I recall. There were other officers that eventually gathered in the basement, riding down, that is the only ones that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that party move as a party as you left the elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. As a group.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean. Where did you move to from the elevator?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, after we got onto the--into the basement--the elevator door was open--now, we got off and walked to in front of the jail office and I believe Lieutenant Smart told us to standby there for further orders. Then he walked away, at that particular time and I stayed standing against the south wall, the south wall which was opposite the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that outside the----

Mr. ARCHER. Outside the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. Outside the jail office doors?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, no, sir; it is before you leave the corridor, going into the basement in front of the jail office, but not into the basement entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. How long did you stay there?

Mr. ARCHER. It would be hard for me to say the exact time. In general I'd say about 5, maybe 7 minutes that we stayed there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then where did you move to next?

Mr. ARCHER. While standing there in front of the office, Captain Jones came through with Chief Batchelor, passed in front of us, entered the basement and, as I recall, they stood there and had some conversation. I didn't hear the conversation. Couldn't tell you what it consisted of, but after seeing this talking to Chief Batchelor, Captain Jones came back and said, "I want this corridor kept clear," and at the same time he did, the doors opened up. This was the corridor going into the basement in front of the jail office, "I want the corridors kept clear," and he didn't necessarily order me. He indicated--just said, "I want the corridors kept clear," and that is when I took my station on the north side of the jail door, right where the corridor goes into the basement, and also where the jail door opens into the basement where the automobiles are parked.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me about what time it was that you took that station that you just described last?

Mr. ARCHER. May I--my approximate time--oh, sir, I couldn't give you an exact time from the time that would elapse, I would say approximately 11:05, or 11:08 a.m. Like I say, that is only an approximate----

Mr. HUBERT. Let's try to get at it another way. About how long before the shooting did you take that post?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say at least 15 minutes previous. Prior to the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave that position that you have just described in any substantial way? I understand you weren't standing stock still, but substantially, did you remain in that location until the shooting?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to have a look at this mockup here and at the basement chart which is in conformity with it, and I am identifying this particular basement chart that I am going to ask you to testify about by marking on it, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5091. Deposition of Don Ray Archer," is that right?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am signing my name on it, and for the purpose of identification, I will ask you to put your name below mine.

Mr. ARCHER. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you--use the mockup first to determine the exact spot that you were standing in at what we'll call your final position.

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In which you were approximately 15 minutes before the shooting. I say, using this mockup, I want you to place yourself wherever you were, and relate it to the map or chart, or draw a circle in the spot at which you were. First of all, show to me on the mockup where you were.

Mr. ARCHER. I was at this position right here, sir. In other words, this door--this door here [indicating] had it been open--in fact, it was open. I was helping to hold it open. Right on the corner of this particular--it is not exactly a pillar, but just to the corner of that----

Mr. HUBERT. If I put a circle right here, would that be the spot you are talking about?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it would.

Mr. HUBERT. I am making a circle and drawing a line out, and I am writing, "Position of Archer for about 15 minutes prior to the shooting." I am drawing this circle around that legend, and connecting the circle which marks your position with the circle which describes it, is that correct?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; it is as near correct as I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When the party came out, then the doors swung in to you, is that right?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, as I remember it, when the party came out, now, as near as I can recall, the doors [were] open.

Mr. HUBERT. Opened which way?

Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say. I have thought about that, but I don't remember exactly. I'd say--as I was showing you here, I was standing enough to this side to hold this door.

Mr. HUBERT. To hold the----

Mr. ARCHER. This is the door [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. The corridor door?

Mr. ARCHER. The corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether the jail office door sort of cornered you?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it couldn't corner me. It didn't interfere with me at all.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a swinging door, isn't it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; it is. I am sure--I feel like in my own mind, it was open.

Mr. HUBERT. Swung open into the jail area?

Mr. ARCHER. Swung open into the jail area. In my own mind, as I say, I can't be certain about that point, because I just don't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the other way, it would have kind of boxed you in.

Mr. ARCHER. I don't believe it did. That is the reason I have it in my mind that it was opened the other way, because I recall no interference from the door whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember being boxed in?

Mr. ARCHER. I know I wasn't boxed in, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened then when the party came down that was transferring Oswald?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they brought Oswald down to the basement, now, the first officer that I saw was Captain Fritz. As he started out the jail office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the detectives with Oswald, I don't know. He didn't--motioned to them like for them to wait a second, like I say, I didn't hear any command or any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and I would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces. Then the detectives started out with Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, I guess?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; they did.

Mr. HUBERT. But, they were in your line of vision?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you saw?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, as they passed in front of me, I could see--I could see the detectives on each side of Oswald leading him towards the ramp. The automobile ramp in the basement. Then as they neared the front of the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that I was in, I did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the opposite side of the ramp. I mean, you know, without focusing my vision directly on them. In other words, I couldn't take a scanning view and possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just as they reached the edge of the ramp, I caught a figure of a man. The movement first turned my attention to that point. I had been watching Oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then I caught the movement of a man, and my first thought was, as I started moving--well, my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe to take a sock at him. Someone got emotionally upset and jumped out to take a sock at him and I started to move forward, and as I moved forward I saw the man reach Oswald, raise up, and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were in motion before the shot was fired?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, I would say just it would be instantaneous. I mean, when I saw the movement I feel like I started moving, too.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first recognize Ruby?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't recognize Ruby at all. I didn't know the man personally, and I didn't know his name (nor I didn't even know who admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him his name and he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby."

Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he was overpowered?

Mr. ARCHER. That was as we took him back to the jail office after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any observation or remark or say anything at all before he was moved into the jail office?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, an instant before I heard the shot, I heard a phrase. Now, I couldn't say what the phrase was and then I definitely----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know what the phrase was?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I don't know. I couldn't say what the phrase was, because I had not heard, but I did hear the words, "Son-of-a-bitch," and then the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who said it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I know Ruby said it. I'm positive of that. I was looking right at the man.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you didn't hear anything except those four words, "Son-of-a-bitch"?

Mr. ARCHER. That is the only words I could make out.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew it was coming from him?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I thought that it did.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from him?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say, at that particular time, I was five, maybe six paces.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he move from?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, when I saw him, he was approaching the detectives. It was my first glimpse of it. I, personally, could not say where he moved from. He came out of the crowd, as far as I could tell, because that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the corridors so far as I knew, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could he have come up from the area where the television cameras were located?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; he could have. When he came into my vision, he was already in front of the detectives, and I did not see exactly where he did come from.

Mr. HUBERT. What detective was he in front of?

Mr. ARCHER. Detective--the ones that had Oswald, which would be Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what detectives Ruby passed by in his motion from his prior position to when you saw him?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you are speaking about that time, I did not; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you found out subsequently?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes; subsequently.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the moment, you didn't recognize them?

Mr. ARCHER. At the time if someone had asked me who had been standing there, I couldn't have said, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, he was brought into the jail office immediately?

Mr. ARCHER. After the shot was fired, sir, I tried to move forward, but I was cut off by the other officers. The--I started forward, well, the struggle went to my left as I moved forward, individually worked itself way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office, well, I took his left arm and assisted them in walking--I went into the jail office with him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened next?

Mr. ARCHER. After we took him into the jail office?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARCHER. After we got the subject into the jail office I still didn't know who he was. Someone asked where the gun was. Now, I had not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after the shot was fired when I caught sight of this man again, which was Ruby. I didn't see the gun. I was interested in knowing where the gun was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office and I assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his right. I couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. Laid him down on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular time. But that is when I said, "Who is he?"

I made that statement, because I didn't know who it was and Ruby then turned his face in my direction. He didn't look directly at me. His face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. He then turned in this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "You all know me, I'm Jack Ruby."

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next in that jail office area?

Mr. ARCHER. When we had the subject on the floor, I was reaching for my handcuffs. I reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my handcuffs off my belt, and Detective McMillon was astraddle and over him, over Ruby, and I believe I said, "Mac, do you need my cuffs?"

About that time, "No; I have got it now." And said he placed the cuffs on Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?

Mr. ARCHER. After he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were being made or being asked. I don't know. They seemed--some of the statements seemed to come from behind me. I don't know whether it was reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "Who is he?" Did he hit him? Did he shoot him? Or things of that nature, as I recall. And he said at that particular point, "I hope I killed the son-of-a-bitch."

I think Captain King was there just a very short time. We began to get--McMillon and I and Detective Clardy, I know the three of us and perhaps one or two other officers, I couldn't say for sure, assisted Ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him, along with Captain King. I believe Captain King said at that point in there somewhere, "Let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the fifth floor jail." So, we then went to the elevator. They put him on the elevator, and I believe that I was either last, or near the last getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor jail.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do when you got up there?

Mr. ARCHER. After we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section, not a cell. Just an open section of the jail, and we began to search him for any weapons. We were, at least I was mainly concerned as to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. We stripped him and stripped him of his clothing, and I wasn't interested too much in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or anything else he might have concealed on him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find any personal property on him?

Mr. ARCHER. Did I find any personal property on him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir, I searched him. I did remove some personal property. I recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. I'm not sure about that. The main thing I remember was the large roll of money.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the property you took from his person?

Mr. ARCHER. We had been there--before I started removing any personal property; well, I searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail officers, Haake, came up and what personal property I took out of his pockets, I handed right over to him. I didn't bother to itemize it or anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and----

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make an inventory of his property?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You just handed it over to another man?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby then?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. ARCHER. During--after we--as I began searching him, making the general search of him, as we were standing there I said--I had seen Oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in there and I looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. Of course, I couldn't say he was dead, but I am saying that to me he looked like he was dead, and I said to Ruby at that time, "Jack I think you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and said, "Well, I intended to shoot him three times."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't know him. I wouldn't recognize the man if I saw him on the street. I do--I knew of him. I had heard the name before. I did have--I did recollect that he had been handled by the department, but I never arrested him, and I had never seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the name was Jack Ruby, though?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't know the name was Jack Ruby other than he told me his name was Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am handing two documents, which I'm identifying as follows, to wit: One document apparently is a copy of a statement dated November 27, 1964, addressed to Chief Curry, apparently signed by you, which I am marking, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5092, deposition of D. R. Archer," I have signed it on the first page, and I have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower right-hand corner, and another document which I have marked in the right margin, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5093, deposition of D. R. Archer," and I have signed my name below that, and put my initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. And I would like you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so, I wish to ask you some questions about them.

Mr. ARCHER. Now, then----

Mr. HUBERT. Have you read both of them?

Mr. ARCHER. I have read this one [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. ARCHER. You want me to read----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; read both of them.

Mr. ARCHER. All right. All right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have read the exhibits we have marked 5092 and 5093. Now, I will ask you if those statements contain the truth as you knew it?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; with one correction here in this statement that is headed by "Federal Bureau of Investigation".

Mr. HUBERT. I think you will find that that is Exhibit 5093.

Mr. ARCHER. 5093, yes, sir. It is not correct when it states that I remained with Ruby until approximately 3 p.m. I believe that that was 3:30 p.m., as stated in my report. As I recall, when I was interviewed by the gentleman, I did say 3:30. Now, like I say, it could be my error, could be theirs, but----

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any omissions from, of fact from those statements?

Mr. ARCHER. Any what, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Any omissions of fact.

Mr. ARCHER. Well, I didn't go into every detail. There are several statements that I didn't include in this report, and of some of the conversation that took place in the jail and during the time that I was with Ruby, and then some of the statements that were made downstairs. By this, I mean when this investigation was made. I didn't have in mind of any testimony being involved, that it was--more or less an investigation as to how Ruby got into the basement, and what the security breakdown was. That my--that was my impression.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you are relating to the fact that both of those statements omit any statement as to what Ruby told you concerning his intent to kill?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish to afford you an opportunity to state why that fact, or those facts were omitted from the statements?

Mr. ARCHER. Well, at the time, I just didn't consider them pertinent to the investigation that was in progress, and I just didn't recall them as important information at the time. And as I explained, it was in my mind that it was an inquiry, more or less, as to where I was and what I was doing, and of an inquiry as to whether there was any negligent on my part in regards to this security breakdown.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the inclusion in these two statements of his phrase "Son-of-a-bitch," was more important than his statement of his intent?

Mr. ARCHER. Sir, at the time, it is like I say, whenever I gave the statements I had in mind as to what I saw at the time of the shooting, and that did take place at the time of the shooting, and I didn't go into great detail as to what took place after we took him into custody, took him upstairs and searched him and all. In other words, I had in mind that if anyone wanted to know about it, well, they would be afforded a chance for me to relate that.

Mr. HUBERT. When, in fact, did they find out that you had this knowledge?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't recall the exact time or day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you file another report than those we have here?

Mr. ARCHER. I have another report that is the part mental interview which was taken, as I recall, from the date, on November 30th, which was a continuing inquiry as to how Ruby got into the basement of the city hall. I believe that it was taken by Lieutenant McCaghren and Lieutenant C. C. Wallace.

Mr. HUBERT. In that statement you did not mention what Ruby told you concerning his intent either, did you?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I did not at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first convey that information to anyone at all?

Mr. ARCHER. To Mr. Alexander with the district attorney's office, when he made a court inquiry at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember the date, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how long after the shooting?

Mr. ARCHER. I just couldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it before Christmas, for example, or after?

Mr. ARCHER. I don't remember. I do know that Alexander----

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the trial began did you convey this information to anyone?

Mr. ARCHER. I would say approximately 3 weeks. Now, that is just a guess, because I just don't recall the time there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us the circumstances under which this inquiry was made of you concerning the intent to kill as expressed by him?

Mr. ARCHER. Mr. Alexander made the inquiry in talking to us together, and also individually, as to what we heard that might be pertinent, what might not be pertinent at that time, and I went over and related all that I could recall.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you mentioned to anyone at all what you had heard Ruby say regarding his intent?

Mr. ARCHER. As far as I recall; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 3 weeks before the beginning of the trial.

Mr. ARCHER. I would say very--approximately. That could vary, because I don't remember the date. I wish I could, but I didn't make any particular note of it. Like I say, at the time, I just didn't take note of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you mean to say to me that you did not regard those two statements made to you by Ruby as being important in a trial of this man for first-degree murder?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; I didn't say that I didn't regard them as important. I just say at the time that these statements were made it was in my mind that it was not necessarily a gathering of facts to try the man.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from your testimony that you didn't convey this information to anybody at all until you were asked to do so in an interview with Mr. Alexander, which, from your testimony, I judge to be approximately the middle of January or afterwards, which is to say, 2 months after the event.

Now, I ask you if you did not think that that information was extremely valuable information in a pending prosecution for first-degree murder?

Mr. ARCHER. I didn't, at the time, give it a thought in the way of prosecution, because in my own mind I didn't feel that a lot of the statements would be admissible. I don't know what would be admissible and what wouldn't.

Mr. HUBERT. It never occurred to you that it was your duty to tell your superior officer, or somebody that you had heard that this man said, "I meant to kill him"?

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; it didn't. Had they inquired about it, I certainly would have told them.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, have you anything else to say, sir.

Mr. ARCHER. No, sir; not unless there is something more you would like to ask me. If I can relate, or tell you anything, I would be happy to.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have not been interviewed by any member of the Commission or by me, before, have you? That is to say, a member of the President's Commission, on the assassination?

Mr. ARCHER. Not the President's Commission. I have been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which you know about.

Mr. HUBERT. But no interview by me or any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This deposition is the first time you have said anything to any member of the Commission staff?

Mr. ARCHER. Yes, sir; so far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That's all. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF BARNARD S. CLARDY

The testimony of Barnard S. Clardy was taken at 2:45 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Barnard (spelling) B-a-r-n-a-r-d?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Middle initial S. Clardy. Auto Theft Bureau, Criminal Investigation Division, Police Department of Dallas. Mr. Clardy, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress Number 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Detective Clardy.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Detective Clardy, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Detective Clardy, you appear here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the notice. Now, do you waive this 3-day notice?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Very well. Now, will you stand and be sworn, please. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARDY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. CLARDY. Barnard S. Clardy.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. CLARDY. Thirty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. CLARDY. 936 Ferncliff Trail.

Mr. HUBERT. And your occupation?

Mr. CLARDY. Police Detective.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Since November 5, 1950.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the criminal investigation bureau?

Mr. CLARDY. Since December the 5th, 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is--who is head of the auto theft bureau?

Mr. CLARDY. Captain Nichols.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Nichols, and the entire criminal investigation division, of which the auto theft division is a part is headed by Chief Stevenson, is that right, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Chief Stevenson; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Detective Clardy. I'm going to mark three documents as I will indicate, after which I wish to ask you some questions concerning those documents. At first, a document consisting of three pages being, apparently, a copy of a letter dated November 27, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry, the original of which was apparently signed by you, B. S. Clardy? I am marking the first page of that document "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 5061. Deposition of Detective B. S. Clardy."

Under which I am signing my name, and I am placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner of the second and third pages of that document. The second document purports to be a report from the FBI concerning an interview with you on November 25, 1963. I am marking that document in the lower right-hand corner as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5062, Deposition of B. S. Clardy," and I am signing my name and putting my initials on the second page in the lower right-hand corner.

The third document consists of three pages, and purports to be a report of an interview of you on December 3d, by Agents Quigley and Dallman of the FBI. On the first page I am marking as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5063. Deposition of B. S. Clardy." Signing my name on the first page, placing my initials on the second and third pages in the lower right-hand corner on each of those pages.

Now, Detective Clardy, I hand you these three documents and--identified as 5061 and 5062 and 5063, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to read those today?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Do those documents represent substantially the truth of all you know concerning the matter under inquiry this morning--this afternoon?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; they do. The only thing that I find that I erred on was in the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now----

Mr. CLARDY. On my statement, that the approximate time where I went down was approximately 11 instead of 10, and the approximate time that we brought Mr. Jack Ruby from the jail to Captain Fritz' office was approximately 3:30, instead of 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Those corrections you wish to make on the document marked 5061?

Mr. CLARDY. 5061.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, there were two time corrections that you think should be made, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. On that document alone, sir. And this was approximately closer to 11 a.m., on this other document.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. You wish to make a correction as to the time with reference to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061, to wit, your letter to Chief Curry on November 27th and----

Mr. CLARDY. And on that also. It was approximately 3:30 instead of 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Two corrections here.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; two corrections on that.

Mr. HUBERT. And in the second paragraph of that letter where you name the time as 10 a.m.----

Mr. CLARDY. Approximately; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As the time at which Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to report to the jail office. You now say the time should have been what?

Mr. CLARDY. Should have been 11 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 11 a.m. Do you have another time correction to make?

Mr. CLARDY. Time on the last paragraph there was the time that we brought the prisoner out, Mr. Ruby, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. HUBERT. It reads now as "2:30 p.m."?

Mr. CLARDY. It reads 2:30. It should have been approximately 3:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Should have been 3:30 instead of 2:30. Both of those corrections being as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5061. Did I understand that you might have a correction as to Clardy Exhibit No. 5062?

Mr. CLARDY. Clardy Exhibit No. 5062. This. The second paragraph should have been approximately 11 a.m., instead of 10 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, your best recollection is that the time that Lieutenant Smart advised you and other officers to go to the city jail office was 11 o'clock rather than 10 o'clock?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything you can tell us that would explain that error in time that you made?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. You see, the point I am making is, that on November 27, you stated 10 a.m., apparently in your letter. Then--well, prior to that, on November 25, when you were interviewed by the FBI you told them at 10 o'clock, and do you think that it is simply a mistake in time, or----

Mr. CLARDY. Well, it is a mistake in time on me--on the--on my first report I was under the impression that I told them 11 a.m., which--now, whether I did or not, I don't know, sir, on my first interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me call your attention to the fact that on Document 5063, which is the interview on December 3, you also mentioned 10 a.m., apparently. All I am trying to do, Detective Clardy, is to find out why it is that you think it is 11 o'clock now, whereas before on three separate occasions you thought it was 10.

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, I thought I told the agent that I talked to that it was possibly closer to 11 than it was to 10, when I talked to him. To be--just preactly [sic] what time I went down there, I am just judging.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your present recollection is definitely----

Mr. CLARDY. That it would have been closer to 11 than it was to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. CLARDY. I am definitely sure in my own mind that it was sometime after 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that causes you to fix that precisely?

Mr. CLARDY. After just thinking, and all the other officers up in the bureau sure that it was closer to 11 than it was to 10, I don't know whether I looked at my watch or whether--on a previous deal, or where I got the 10 o'clock in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is apparent then that you did have 10 o'clock in your mind until when speaking to others you became convinced that you must be wrong and the 11 o'clock is closer to it, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was that. I wasn't any--wasn't in the basement more than 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you and ask you to correct your statement from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You are doing that on your own volition?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It is because you have become convinced that you are wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. I was wrong on the time, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. That 10 o'clock is definitely wrong on time.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are, right now telling us that you are quite certain that it was?

Mr. CLARDY. That it was closer to 11 o'clock than it was to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. That it was closer to 11 than 10. And that the previous statement about 10 o'clock is simply wrong?

Mr. CLARDY. Simply wrong; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. No one has asked you to change?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir. That wrong time was my fault, and nobody else's.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone speak to you about the wrong time?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Haven't done so to this time?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you were off duty on November 22?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you did not participate in reference to the investigation concerning the President's death on November 23?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him, and in what way?

Mr. CLARDY. I had known him approximately in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? How did you come in contact with him?

Mr. CLARDY. To the best of my recollection I met him when I went into his place of business that he owned on South Ervay in connection with work, when I was working as a patrolman. I say I met him. I didn't meet him at that time. I knew him, knew who he was. I--first time I was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at--after I went into criminal investigation. Possibly in the early part of 1956. I was looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the Vegas Club. I'm not sure who I was with, or who introduced----

Mr. HUBERT. Could you speak a little louder, please?

Mr. CLARDY. I am not sure who I was with, or who introduced me to him at that time. Then approximately--maybe 6 or 8 months before this come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a traffic ticket he got. Other than that, I had seen him at a distance and had spoke to him. I had seen him quite frequently when I was working late nights where the B and B Club is, that is on Oak Lawn, close to Lemmon. There is one place of business between the Vegas Club and the B and B, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were working late nights, and I have seen him in there on several occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your acquaintance with him such that you would recognize him immediately upon seeing him?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat on, or a hat off?

Mr. CLARDY. I know the man well enough if I caught a glimpse of him I should recognize him; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I am going to mark a chart of the basement area of the Dallas Police Department, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5064. Deposition of B. S. Clardy," under which I am signing my name. For the purposes of identification, however, before I move to that, I want to ask you concerning documents 5061, 5062, and 5063, previously identified, which I now hand you again.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Ask you if there are any other corrections you wish to make----

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the documents?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the information contained in those documents represent the truth, so far as you know?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Any modifications or changes or deletions that you would like to make?

Mr. CLARDY. I don't believe there is, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Anything omitted, that you know of?

Mr. CLARDY. Sir, the only thing that is not in there that I know anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these investigations asked me about.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will get to that later, but with the exception of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which I will come back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? There is no deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have been talking about?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each of the documents. Right there.

Mr. CLARDY. Right under here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Just--now, we'll be using this chart later on, which has been marked 5064, and I have signed it, and I will ask you, for the purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that one, too. Now, these documents have been corrected, I understand, that it was simply closer to 10 o'clock than to 11 that you received----

Mr. CLARDY. Closer to 11 than 10.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon. Closer to 11 than to 10 when you received certain instructions from Lieutenant Smart, is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were these instructions the first connection that you had with the movement of Oswald?

Mr. CLARDY. We had been told earlier that morning, approximately--come on duty at 7 o'clock, and was--and was told to stay in the office. Now, that----

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your normal tour began at 7, but you were told to stay in the office?

Mr. CLARDY. Was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going to be moved, or at what time?

Mr. CLARDY. I was under the impression that he didn't know what time or how, hisself, at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to form that impression?

Mr. CLARDY. I think we went to get a cup of coffee, and I asked him, and he said, "I don't know."

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the impression that he didn't know what the plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually told you to the effect that he didn't know?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then what happened after?

Mr. CLARDY. Sometime shortly before 11, they told us to report to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Smart did?

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. HUBERT. Lieutenant Smart.

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart, myself, and Detective McMillon, Detective Archer and Detective Watson, and Detective Dawson out of our bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. You moved as a group?

Mr. CLARDY. Uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some other detectives from the juvenile bureau, I am sure, was on the same elevator. Detective Lowery, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and possibly some others. Those, I'm sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What instructions were given to you?

Mr. CLARDY. Went to the basement. Lieutenant Smart----

Mr. HUBERT. Speak a little louder.

Mr. CLARDY. Lieutenant Smart is the one, the only one who had any orders as to what he wanted us to do. Said, "Line up along the wall here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that?

Mr. CLARDY. Well, I tried to, sir. Don't look like we done much good.

Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean that to be facetious. I was simply following the line of thought. Then you followed his instructions to line the----

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want you to take a look at this mockup here and show us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired.

Mr. CLARDY. Let me get lined out here.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. CLARDY. I was on this corner to--just to the right of it, most of the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's see. That would be here, isn't it? [Indicating.]

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked--you have indicated on the mockup here a position which I am now marking by a circle.

Mr. CLARDY. I was just down from the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. This way?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll----

Mr. CLARDY. In other words, I was close enough to the corner that I could see around both ways. One occasion, I went and talked to Detective McMillon.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you took this position, and went over there and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting?

Mr. CLARDY. At the actual shooting, I had moved approximately 3 steps to my right. As they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters tried to come across here [indicating]. And I had stepped up that way, not over--not that far up, sir. I only took 2 or 3 steps. I would say maybe probably as far as from me to you. I had stepped to my right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, I have marked on Exhibit 5064, as a result of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, 2 positions concerning you. One of which I have marked, encircled, "Position of B. S. Clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is approximately 3 feet further towards the Commerce Street entrance.

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was your position at the time of the shot?

Mr. CLARDY. At no time----

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no time other than when I walked across to Detective McMillon do I recall being over 3 feet from that corner in any direction.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first get to that corner, approximately?

Mr. CLARDY. That would have been approximately 11 o'clock, maybe 10:55. It would have been pretty close.

Mr. HUBERT. So, that from the--from between 10:55 and 11 o'clock you stayed in the position which is marked on Exhibit 5064, that being the position of B. S. Clardy prior to the shooting. You stayed in that position all--within 3 feet of it the whole--during the whole time until Oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went over to talk to Detective McMillon?

Mr. CLARDY. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. How far did you move, and in what direction did you go?

Mr. CLARDY. Certainly--well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other side.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you mark on the map approximately the position of McMillon when you walked over to him?

Mr. CLARDY. Approximately--I walked over to him approximately in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a circle, now, and I am putting on there, "Position of McMillon when Clardy walked over," right?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you go back to your original position?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you stayed there except at the moment of the shooting you were about 3 feet in the direction of Commerce Street from that original basic position?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you moved 3 feet towards Commerce Street, as you say you did?

Mr. CLARDY. The best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and I had to step to my right to watch them, and I stepped to my right and Captain Fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, I hadn't seen Oswald myself, but approximately at the time I stepped to my right I saw a blur of fast movement and I tried to turn, and heard the shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize Ruby then?

Mr. CLARDY. I had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. Just all--I was turned, moved to the right, and all I could see was a fast blur of movement.

Mr. HUBERT. At any time during this time that you were standing in your original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went over to see McMillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did you see Jack Ruby in the crowd?

Mr. CLARDY. No, sir; I did not; and approximately 2 or 3 minutes before the shooting I had looked over the crowd in the basement. Why, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. You did, in fact, look over there?

Mr. CLARDY. I had looked up to the right. Lieutenant Smart, and--I think--I am not for sure--Chief Batchelor was with him at the armored truck, and I did look on over the crowd on back around. Now, this could have been more than 3 minutes before the shooting occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the conditions such that if Ruby had been standing in that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him?

Mr. CLARDY. As many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he could have very easily been behind somebody where I couldn't have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Just how many people were in that area where Ruby apparently was? I don't mean an accurate count. Of course, you didn't count them.

Mr. CLARDY. In the area where I presume that he come from, 12 to 15, on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. But, the Main Street ramp itself going toward Main Street, you figured there were about 15 people?

Mr. CLARDY. From along here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Don't say "along here," because that won't show up.

Mr. CLARDY. So that we'll understand what I mean here, take this. There was people back over in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Let's call that area "B" and you are talking about area B, and you say there was a considerable amount of people?

Mr. CLARDY. Considerable amount of people back in there and from along here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], there was----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately correct?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am calling that "line X to Y."

Mr. CLARDY. I'd say there was a minimum of 15 people from here across here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Minimum of 15 people in the front row, or some in the back?

Mr. CLARDY. There were some in the back.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you think there were about 15 people strung along this line that we have marked "X to Y," being a curving line, in--and that there was some back of them, and up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CLARDY. At the time, I didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you didn't see anybody----

Mr. CLARDY. I didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second line which you have described, "as far as this," is--I'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of identification I'm marking it as a line designated by "1" and "2." Both numerals being encircled. I should like you to consider the area which is bounded by these two lines, "XY," and "1, 2," and the rail and at the wall is area A. Tell me how many people you think were in area A?

Mr. CLARDY. In this area here? I----

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