Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (12 of 26): Hearings Vol. XII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place?

Mr. ARNETT. Jackson runs along beside it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus station?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I go by it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I would have been one block south of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that it was that you went over the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at 2 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Zangs?

Mr. ARNETT. I went Zangs to Jefferson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any point in your trip out there?

Mr. ARNETT. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any importance to the Commission?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the funeral, or wherever you had to go?

Mr. ARNETT. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, "I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway 114--well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of the police officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening on a police radio?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be heard on ordinary radio receivers?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of special adaptation do you have to have on your receiver to pick this up?

Mr. ARNETT. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM frequency, do you know?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but I was at Grapevine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the outlying districts?

Mr. ARNETT. They were giving a description of the man that they had a description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the Texas Theater.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot?

Mr. ARNETT. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the third floor at the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third floor?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say 6 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor?

Mr. ARNETT. That's what I started doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before you arrived, before you got there?

Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, and Sergeant Dugger, were there with me when I was working there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you replace anybody?

Mr. ARNETT. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get your instructions from?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a regular sergeant?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ride on the elevator?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they had to show their identification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I recognize him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of identification did you ask for when people got off of the elevator?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I was--I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Postal inspector?

Mr. ARNETT. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say four. Two elevators.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do about people who came up, who said they came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with some other business other than being a photographer or----

Mr. ARNETT. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs and see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, would you have admitted him?

Mr. ARNETT. A justice of the peace?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you have let him in?

Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, without notifying one of these regular officers standing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have considered this a proper identification?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know where he was from. He might have been from Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any lawyers come up?

Mr. ARNETT. Lawyers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they conducted themselves?

Mr. ARNETT. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do you imagine that Ruby could have got by?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that night, I would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the basement, the 24th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have recognized him?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you were on duty on Friday?

Mr. ARNETT. Friday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After 11 o'clock what did you do?

Mr. ARNETT. I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody replace you on those doors?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that was?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in admitting people?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you come in on Saturday?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come in on Saturday?

Mr. ARNETT. Around 2 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how late did you stay?

Mr. ARNETT. Until about 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday?

Mr. ARNETT. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but I did work over where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you can walk down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is L. M. Baker.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were stationed by Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do you mean that you were inside the homicide office?

Mr. ARNETT. No; I was outside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide door?

Mr. ARNETT. In the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. ARNETT. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door to get to his office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the homicide office?

Mr. ARNETT. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark it [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you initial those two places and date them where I marked them [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many people in there and out--what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you received some instructions from one of the other officers?

Mr. ARNETT. Did there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time was that?

Mr. ARNETT. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you?

Mr. ARNETT. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was this told to you?

Mr. ARNETT. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office----

Mr. ARNETT. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went and made a telephone call?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went in Chief Curry's--not in his office, now, but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. I am almost certain I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building or----

Mr. ARNETT. He was at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was at home. Is he a regular officer?

Mr. ARNETT. He is a reserve lieutenant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is a reserve lieutenant?

Mr. ARNETT. He is my assistant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then Merrell told you that you would have to have some men?

Mr. ARNETT. That they wanted some men, yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him that, is that right?

Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt to locate some reserves that night?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the police department building?

Mr. ARNETT. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men should be there?

Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally when he would be moved?

Mr. ARNETT. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 o'clock they would be plenty early.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive any other information?

Mr. ARNETT. Of what time it would be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the announcement to the press?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would that have gone through the dispatcher's office?

Mr. ARNETT. For him to call me would--yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that right?

Mr. ARNETT. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the most accurate----

Mr. ARNETT. It would be recorded all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon people would have known that something was going to happen.

Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection with the information you received about the move, that Oswald was going to be moved the next day?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, it would show--you would have to first check and see what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. You see?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically?

Mr. ARNETT. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name wouldn't have been on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett?

Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't believe our names would have been mentioned on the air.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, we will just say 243 or 242 or--I don't know what number it was now, but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained by the police department?

Mr. ARNETT. I suppose they are kept for a long time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and Courts Building the next day?

Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men would you estimate that you contacted about this between the time that you got the word from Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock?

Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell--I mean Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two people I contacted on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact any other officers, to give instructions to men?

Mr. ARNETT. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would have given instructions similar to ones you gave?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't contact him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that next morning?

Mr. ARNETT. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Each; each lieutenant?

Mr. ARNETT. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had 18 all together?

Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you came in the building on Sunday morning?

Mr. ARNETT. I either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember entering the building?

Mr. ARNETT. Do I remember entering the building?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came through?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at that time were there any TV cables strung through there?

Mr. ARNETT. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, and I do believe that there were cables running through the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records room?

Mr. ARNETT. Down that way [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Going north?

Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there?

Mr. ARNETT. They would be on Harwood Street, then?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. ARNETT. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you familiar with that door?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar with that door?

Mr. ARNETT. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went down into the subbasement?

Mr. ARNETT. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building?

Mr. ARNETT. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the--where the police officers' locker room is?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the Commerce Street side?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk off of the sidewalk on Commerce Street----

Mr. ARNETT. And go down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records room?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them is, if I am not mistaken, off to the right, as you face the hallway, and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that?

Mr. ARNETT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room?

Mr. ARNETT. No; I sure wouldn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go--and got inside the building?

Mr. ARNETT. I saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to Commerce Street [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. We have got it turned right around to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. This is Commerce going out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.

Mr. ARNETT. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were placed, where I have got them there [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, behind the TV cameras----

Mr. ARNETT. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put a reserve officer out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that reserve officer that you put there?

Mr. ARNETT. Worley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now. I am going to put an X--well, you put an X on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, please.

Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] W-o----

Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y.

Now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley in there?

Mr. ARNETT. Shortly after 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think it was?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within 5 minutes or so [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay.

Mr. ARNETT. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. ARNETT. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at that spot?

Mr. ARNETT. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. ARNETT. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam, we searched the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you accompany him all the way around?

Mr. ARNETT. In this area, I did [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion?

Mr. ARNETT. That's it (indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on the map stairs up, behind elevators No. 1 and No. 2.

Mr. ARNETT. Did I go up the stairs?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Did you go to that area with him?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all this right in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking about here.

Mr. ARNETT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 and the doorway to the stair up, correct?

Mr. ARNETT. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and Sergeant Dean do?

Mr. ARNETT. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular officer stationed----

Mr. ARNETT. At the elevators [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, and put an X there?

Mr. ARNETT. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation?

Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't working at the time I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there?

Mr. ARNETT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up?

Mr. ARNETT. Did you say are there a door there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door there?

Mr. ARNETT. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the first aid station?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you and Sergeant Dean made?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlight and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that leads to the stairs up?

Mr. ARNETT. I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't go?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Did you go to that area where the first-aid station is?

Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant ---- I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back there searched the----

Mr. ARNETT. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a man to walk in there [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail office----

Mr. ARNETT. No; it's not behind it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, here is the jail office [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did you search any other area with Sergeant Dean?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where I was?

(The record was here read by the reporter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you searched the basement, where did you go?

Mr. ARNETT. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that; would you write around that, after search of basement [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] B-a-s-p----

Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you remain there at that position?

Mr. ARNETT. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. ARNETT. J. C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Replaced by J. C. Hunt?

Mr. ARNETT. Hunt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go?

Mr. ARNETT. I had sent some men outside----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; where did you go?

Mr. ARNETT. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of the reserves [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You circulated in the basement?

Mr. ARNETT. In the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make assignments?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What assignments did you make?

Mr. ARNETT. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant ---- this little sergeant that I was trying to name while ago--Could I call the man and ask him that boy's name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's not really important.

Mr. ARNETT. It isn't?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you assign people outside of the building?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make assignments to the various intersections?

Mr. ARNETT. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce south-side street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ARNETT. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the street [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You sent all your men to Commerce?

Mr. ARNETT. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you send your other men?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl?

Mr. ARNETT. Main and Pearl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl?

Mr. ARNETT. Not before the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the Credit Building--what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp of it. That's out on Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement?

Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make the assignment myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the basement at any time after this particular period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did you leave the basement area?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the garage and ramp area the entire time?

Mr. ARNETT. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; where we marked the A?

Mr. ARNETT. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my stand right in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the----

Mr. ARNETT. Basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom?

Mr. ARNETT. [No response.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where you stationed yourself at about 11:05?

Mr. ARNETT. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is.

Mr. ARNETT. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is.

Mr. ARNETT. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an A there, also?

Mr. ARNETT. Okay [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And put a circle around that.

Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived there?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say 11:05.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe I looked at my watch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write up a report on this on November 24?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I write it up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I made the statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, that's the letter [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about 11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4?

Mr. ARNETT. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being 11:05 when I went there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was writing that letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationed yourself here, in terms of how much before--well, in terms of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself before or----

Mr. ARNETT. It was here before I went there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. This was after the armored car arrived?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down?

Mr. ARNETT. After I placed myself over there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Well, around 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down?

Mr. ARNETT. I know what time the ambulance was called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that?

Mr. ARNETT. 11:21.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights from the TV cameras on?

Mr. ARNETT. Were they on?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, they had been on all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They had been on all the time?

Mr. ARNETT. They wasn't alive all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the cameras weren't alive?

Mr. ARNETT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights on from those TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you call----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean the floodlights.

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject?

Mr. ARNETT. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Over where these TV cameras are, were there some lights placed in association with those cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the truth----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I mean, that [indicating] was burning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they beam a lot of lights down?

Mr. ARNETT. I know what you are talking about there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in there?

Mr. ARNETT. There was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We broke up----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked out over in there, could you see cars or people or anything over behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was before Lee Oswald was brought down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage?

Mr. ARNETT. I saw it coming out of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether you could see objects in that area?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage?

Mr. ARNETT. Uh huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you watch it go?

Mr. ARNETT. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out of the way, for it to go by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed across there before the car came out?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all the way across there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Sam Pierce's car?

Mr. ARNETT. They say it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in that car?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before Lee Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARNETT. There was one come out and backed up in position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it really is. But what do you think you saw when this car--you say you think you saw two cars go up the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second car go up?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, it wasn't very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to look over at that armored car?

Mr. ARNETT. It was straight in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, wasn't it?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the way under the shed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Butler up there?

Mr. ARNETT. Captain Butler?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember Captain Butler.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area?

Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Dean. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see the bottle fall out?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street ramp----

Mr. ARNETT. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up that ramp too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around and looking back up that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer stationed up there?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him up there?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you know who he was?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident investigator has a red patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a regular patrolman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him before he got up there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember seeing him in the basement before he was sent up?

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I recall; no sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see the green patch on his----

Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you?

Mr. ARNETT. Not all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you wearing glasses that time?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like this [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you still tell me----

Mr. ARNETT. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance--I drive without glasses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print and something like that [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your glasses off a second.

Mr. ARNETT. Okay [complying].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored spot on there [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. I see a red one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet away from you, aren't I [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many red spots do you see on there?

Mr. ARNETT. I only see one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One big one?

Mr. ARNETT. Well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one blurred one?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my little finger, end of it [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell what sort of shape it is?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow?

Mr. ARNETT. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it.

I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Is that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this man's green patch on his----

Mr. ARNETT. That's right. He was a patrolman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to time glance up in this general direction?

Mr. ARNETT. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You are talking about this "A" here [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the ramp [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. I could from there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you glance up from time to time?

Mr. ARNETT. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did or didn't. More than likely I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to time?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say I did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV cameras at any time?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your area on that side of the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he to your right or was he in front of you?

Mr. ARNETT. He was to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison?

Mr. ARNETT. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out?

Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was directly--you know, next to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody behind you?

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to state for the record that we have here a Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that I held this thing from Captain Arnett--is that right, Captain Arnett [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many colored things do you see?

Mr. DAVIS. Six.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He has got better----

Mr. DAVIS. Five dots and a colored arrow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow?

Mr. DAVIS. See what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stem on the arrow.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got 20-20 vision?

Mr. DAVIS. (Nods head.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't wear glasses?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The record should reflect he did a better job than you.

Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to the back of the room over there.

Mr. ARNETT. Back where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Step over to the doorway there.

Mr. ARNETT. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card?

Mr. ARNETT. I see green and white [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. See any other colors [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. There is a little lighter up at the top of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on there [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, to that end I see something light running up and down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal.

I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can see it with your glasses on [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it.

Mr. ARNETT. Do you think I got anywhere close to it?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand there was nobody standing behind you?

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to your left?

Mr. ARNETT. To my left?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming from?

Mr. ARNETT. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie Harrison was in?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison was in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start another one here.

All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the map where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when Oswald came out [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put an "A" where you were standing.

Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where Blackie Harrison was standing.

Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left?

Mr. ARNETT. A news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where this other one was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" where that newspaper reporter was.

Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the railing?

Mr. ARNETT. There was one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he was in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a question there.

Mr. ARNETT. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where there was a newsman?

Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the man that had the microphone?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in front of that man?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't say [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on the chart here?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, standing there with them, well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARNETT. I have seen them; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see----

Mr. ARNETT. That didn't have any bearing on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see yourself in those movies?

Mr. ARNETT. I am in some magazines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to see yourself in the magazines?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, Sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that how you were able to distinguish----

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people?

Mr. ARNETT. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before I ever saw any films or magazines, either one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought was a newsman?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show Captain King?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that just you come through on these magazine shots?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What magazine did you see yourself in?

Mr. ARNETT. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From Childhood to--I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page your picture was on?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's not before the shooting, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting?

Mr. ARNETT. Shows me scuffling with----

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in that line, have you?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where did you see that picture?

Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Four Days you saw that?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe it does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days?

Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. No. There is three.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Three pictures of you?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they all on the same page?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page or not, but they are in the same connection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are all in connection with the shooting?

Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to tell you what they are?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any other part (indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just shows the top of your head?

Mr. ARNETT. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there?

Mr. ARNETT. That's the only one I have seen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show anything but your face?

Mr. ARNETT. From about right here up [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the middle of your chest up?

Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the gun, before I took hold of Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the crowd?

Mr. ARNETT. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him move in front of you?

Mr. ARNETT. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Illustrate.

Mr. ARNETT. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way (indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, about where Blackie Harrison was.

Mr. ARNETT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your right.

Mr. ARNETT. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. ARNETT. The first thing----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about that far away from him [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison?

Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And looking over his right shoulder?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Lee Oswald came out----[indicating]----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking to your right?

Mr. ARNETT. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you get back there in the position where you first saw Jack.

Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that about how far Jack was from----

Mr. ARNETT. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that how far he was from Harrison?

Mr. ARNETT. He might have been a little further out this way from him, but (indicating).

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was standing forward, he was standing between--in front of Harrison in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was off to Harrison's left?

Mr. ARNETT. He was to Harrison's left a little bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him?

Mr. ARNETT. Just as you and I [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Facing almost directly at Oswald?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point?

Mr. ARNETT. In this position [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who would have been directly--as you are standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main Street ramp [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said--I didn't know his name. I said he was to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes; left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I wouldn't say for certain [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man from the man you saw next to you holding the pad?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you able to state that?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that newsman again?

Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him again; is that the question?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. After the shooting?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he have on a hat?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he wear glasses?

Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a suit on?

Mr. ARNETT. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of that type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was shot?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this time. I believe they had all been there all this time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about 1 minute before Oswald was shot there was a car that drove up and split the lines up?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right. I don't know whether it was 1 minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But shortly before?

Mr. ARNETT. Shortly before there was; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up the ramp?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think I remember him being there with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Captain King about this man?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. ARNETT. After the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were you in the building the rest of the day?

Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went home about 1:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors about how Ruby got down into that basement?

Mr. ARNETT. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I didn't that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short break, about 2 minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read the last part back?

(The record was here read by the reporter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on the side that I showed you?

Mr. ARNETT. It was up like this. Yes [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the side [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that?

Mr. ARNETT. Just sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036.

Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were standing, [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just before Oswald came out?

Mr. ARNETT. [Nods head.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right next to Blackie Harrison's left?

Mr. ARNETT. To his left?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. As he would face up Commerce Street?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man to his left?

Mr. ARNETT. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men manning the cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may have been the last one in that row, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie?

Mr. ARNETT. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the front row, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in?

Mr. ARNETT. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over with the gun?

Mr. ARNETT. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever he shot him he went down like that [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald?

Mr. ARNETT. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby standing still?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same row that Blackie Harrison was in?

Mr. ARNETT. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive instructions before Oswald came out as to where these newspaper people were to stand?

Mr. ARNETT. Where the newspaper--no; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when some men convened around Officer Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave some instructions?

Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Jones?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Captain Jones.

Mr. ARNETT. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I don't remember any group being around him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street side?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were to do there?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, the main instructions I had was to--when we was placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that was an hour before?

Mr. ARNETT. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that door from the jail, jail office?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep the area free?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do?

Mr. ARNETT. I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions like that?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you write the report that has been marked as Exhibit 5033?

Mr. ARNETT. When did I write it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ARNETT. That one was--let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th----

Mr. ARNETT. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the 27th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell composed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d.

Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] C-o-m-p----

Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling]--o-s-e-d.

Mr. ARNETT. November 27?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the police department about the events?

Mr. ARNETT. You mean how it was--how they were set up or something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Any conversations--did you talk with any of the police officers?

Mr. ARNETT. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down there and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some and go out there myself, and I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had happened on November 24?

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were talking about this one particular area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but I don't know, but I have heard that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby might have got down in the basement?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As far as just individuals talking to anybody about it, I don't remember, you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you think he was?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in there any length of time, I just don't believe he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing?

Mr. ARNETT. Would I have seen him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I would have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think you would have?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time--after Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards the jail office?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over that rail I would have got the glance off of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see things happening over by that railing?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you?

Mr. ARNETT. No. Sure wouldn't have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. You have got this thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street ramp, where would that line--how far would that line have come from the TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]?

Mr. ARNETT. How far would it come?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]----

Mr. ARNETT. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV cameras; would you say that the TV cameras and you were the same distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of you?

Mr. ARNETT. They were a little in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much; by a little bit, would you say?

Mr. ARNETT. Well, 5 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less than 5 feet?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am just roughly guessing now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there people congregated around those TV cameras, in front of those TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. In front of it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any of them being in front of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about along the sides of the TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, operating it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there weren't other people crowded down around them?

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I remember; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras?

Mr. ARNETT. It could have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would you have seen him?

Mr. ARNETT. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't have; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after Rio Pierce's car went up?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean you don't remember or----

Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember looking around, no sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that you should have seen Ruby in there?

Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before you wrote this statement?

Mr. ARNETT. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who asked you to write this statement?

Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the statement whether you saw Ruby in there?

Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be no cause for him to ask me that, because I am telling you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel----

Mr. ARNETT. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating].

Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any changes to them?

Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth as I can. Just sign it or----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one and this one here [indicating]?

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. ARNETT. Before tonight?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I took your deposition?

Mr. ARNETT. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where the other one came from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and----

Mr. ARNETT. Absolutely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And advise us?

Mr. ARNETT. I am for you 100 percent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all.

TESTIMONY OF BUFORD LEE BEATY

The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition.

You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry.

Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However, under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it.

The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that will develop a little background that people who are working on the assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in a position to provide some physical action that something might have happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which they need more witnesses.

But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the Commission.

Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written letter.

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take your answer down.

Mr. BEATY. I am sorry; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney.

Mr. BEATY. What do I need an attorney for?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced.

Mr. BEATY. I don't need an attorney, I don't think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BEATY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. BEATY. Buford Lee Beaty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty?

Mr. BEATY. 404 Freeman, Garland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. BEATY. July 10, 1924.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. BEATY. Police department, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. BEATY. Fifteen and a half years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?

Mr. BEATY. Narcotics.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been there?

Mr. BEATY. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the earlier period that you were with the narcotics bureau?

Mr. BEATY. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau?

Mr. BEATY. Burglary and theft.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold a particular rank?

Mr. BEATY. Detective; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize him?

Mr. BEATY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you happened to first become familiar with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. BEATY. When I first met him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEATY. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or something like that. But I knew of him before then.

He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was the Silver Spur?

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with your duties in the narcotics bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any investigation in connection with him?

Mr. BEATY. About narcotics specifically?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let me ask you that question generally.

Mr. BEATY. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him about anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about somebody?

Mr. BEATY. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby?

Mr. BEATY. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the last 3 years?

Mr. BEATY. Possibly, four, maybe five times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the occasions for seeing Jack?

Mr. BEATY. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street, and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say hello and look around. You say hello.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your office at the police department?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting. He came by--didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall about when that was?

Mr. BEATY. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this happened, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there. Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans.

The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at the previous thing.

The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call it a bureau?

Mr. BEATY. Section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service bureau, is that correct?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Within the special service bureau, there is a department which handles dancehall policemen?

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service bureau occupy the same suite of offices?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices as the dancehall bureau?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other people occupy the same suite of offices?

Mr. BEATY. Vice squad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on November 22, the day the President was shot?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had been shot?

Mr. BEATY. Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from the Trade Mart?

Mr. BEATY. Went back to our office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. BEATY. I think until about 9 o'clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on the 23d?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Saturday.

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on Saturday?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you left the police department on Saturday?

Mr. BEATY. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall whether when you left the police department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for duty?

Mr. BEATY. Eight o'clock that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning?

Mr. BEATY. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is Sunday you are talking about now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you to save my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room?

Mr. BEATY. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEATY. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main, I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't remember, that is all right.

Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the narcotics bureau?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor?

Mr. BEATY. No; on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau?

Mr. BEATY. Until about 9:15 or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do at 9:15?

Mr. BEATY. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to get coffee, stay around to see what was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with in the narcotics bureau?

Mr. BEATY. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any people from the third floor?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where they went after coffee?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go out of the building?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; out of the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow Nielson.

Mr. BEATY. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly soon?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you received some word before that?

Mr. BEATY. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the newspaper and radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By this time when the boys in your group went out for coffee, had there been any instructions to standby?

Mr. BEATY. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help in the Oswald move?

Mr. BEATY. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this take place in the basement?

Mr. BEATY. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came downstairs?

Mr. BEATY. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes before he actually came down and Ruby shot him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix it in terms of that time rather than some specific time.

Mr. BEATY. Around 30 minutes or something like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview to Agents Dallman and Quigley--that was on December 3--did you have anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock.

Mr. BEATY. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of time, it seemed to me like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30?

Mr. BEATY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10 o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on their part writing it down?

Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.

Mr. BEATY. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes--could possibly be longer--after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know, right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about 30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or whatever you think was the accurate time?

Mr. BEATY. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my life what time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. BEATY. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast along in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour?

Mr. BEATY. I don't think so; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank about this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read----

Mr. BEATY. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I don't remember?

Mr. GRIFFIN. To read a half hour or--to an hour before Oswald was shot?

Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time, wouldn't it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the exact time?"

Mr. BEATY. That would be fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write in there, "I am not certain about the time."

Mr. BEATY. [Makes statement and initials.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a date after your initials.

Mr. BEATY. 3-26-64. I don't even remember what month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, do you recall any of the people who came down in the contingent with Captain Jones?

Mr. BEATY. They are listed on the back of that, the best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have listed on page 32, of what we have labeled Commission Document 85 (Beaty Exhibit 5040), the names of about a dozen police officers. Did you see all these people come down together, or these people that you remember as having been in the basement?

Mr. BEATY. They came--let me read them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them for the record. B. H. Combest. J. H. Hutchinson.

Mr. BEATY. Those two, boy, they are supposed both special service officers, too, and I don't know how in the world they could have received word unless they called and told them to come down, because they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with me at the time. I can't remember them getting off the elevator at the time, but Captain Martin----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read them. W. J. Harrison.

Mr. BEATY. Yes; I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw. James Watson.

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. D. Miller.

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R. L. Lowery.

Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. J. Charles Goolsby?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Chambers.

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Frank Martin.

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lieutenant W. Wiggins?

Mr. BEATY. No; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R. C. Wagner?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the complete list.

Mr. BEATY. They must have been on two elevators.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, Cutchshaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were all those people attached to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. BEATY. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is juvenile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison is juvenile. I don't know where Miller works.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Cutchshaw?

Mr. BEATY. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both special services.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Wagner was not in the elevator?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; he was with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He came down in the elevator?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; Wiggins wasn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got off the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go?

Mr. BEATY. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the windows by--are you familiar with that place down there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I am.

Mr. BEATY. What I call it, where you go through that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail office, if that is where it was.

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they go through the swinging doors?

Mr. BEATY. We waited right about here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating just about at the first window of the jail office as you come from the elevator?

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into the building?

Mr. BEATY. We are not talking about the jail elevator?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what took place?

Mr. BEATY. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter into the basement parking area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your understanding that people were to place themselves.

Mr. BEATY. Where they were assigned?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what assignments did Jones make at that point?

Mr. BEATY. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on this side and half on this side."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors and the Main Street and Commerce Street ramp.

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those two walls where you have drawn the line?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other words, indicating that--I don't remember whether he said to get to him or not. He just said keep the people back so we can get him through, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abreast of you?

Mr. BEATY. To keep the people back. Of course, over here where I was, there was nobody behind me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on the chart where it was you were stationed? Put an "X" there.

Mr. BEATY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take?

Mr. BEATY. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp behind a railing about 4 foot tall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you place the TV cameras?

Mr. BEATY. Somewhere right there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square.

Mr. BEATY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement?

Mr. BEATY. The best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage entranceway to the garage?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing all over the joint.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras.

Mr. BEATY. They had some of the shoulder cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the stationary cameras.

Mr. BEATY. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am only talking now about the instructions that you remember that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what you were to do when Oswald got abreast of you?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about 3 or 4 minutes later and said, "All you people from the press move back into the driveway." And I will indicate it by a dotted line across here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. BEATY. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage entrance area?

Mr. BEATY. Counting the people here behind the camera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not counting the people behind the camera.

Mr. BEATY. Right along in here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; along the dotted line.

Mr. BEATY. Thirty-five or forty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that congested?

Mr. BEATY. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a pretty wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this is 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single line across there?

Mr. BEATY. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered out, of course. But there seemed like there was some congestion right around there and behind the cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle in the area where the congestion was?

Mr. BEATY. Right along in here, best I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV cameras?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you recall?

Mr. BEATY. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the TV camera close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to the congestion along the Main Street ramp or across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEATY. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of this area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were over here. There must have been a hundred all together all scattered out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill around as long as they didn't get past this line here, and we weren't too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the cars a time or two, and I don't know what was going on out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed back here in the basement area?

Mr. BEATY. Earlier?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at the time Oswald came out.

Mr. BEATY. I didn't see any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that there might not have been officers there?

Mr. BEATY. No; there were some earlier, about 50.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or after you got the instructions from Captain Jones?

Mr. BEATY. I couldn't remember. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you down in the basement?

Mr. BEATY. What do you call the basement now, this or this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from the elevators that come down from the upstairs.

Mr. BEATY. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to go out for coffee, down in the basement at all?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were down in the basement at the time the search of the basement was conducted?

Mr. BEATY. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, later on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The basement was searched substantially after you got down there?

Mr. BEATY. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it happened.

In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement out twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to indicate that they searched the cars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw take place?

Mr. BEATY. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it would be Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge of that search?

Mr. BEATY. No; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in charge. It was a joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in charge. And, actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave a few instructions, some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were down in the basement, did you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp?

Mr. BEATY. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth?

Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they were or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't remember exactly what time they shut it off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; they weren't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, but I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you talking about? Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored car backed down this ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Commerce Street?

Mr. BEATY. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras on the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance to the garage. They were everywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection with the TV cameras?

Mr. BEATY. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over in this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Behind the camera?

Mr. BEATY. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. You couldn't hardly tell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, did you see what happened around that armored car?

Mr. BEATY. Like what now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anything that happened?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the armored car come down?

Mr. BEATY. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see it come down?

Mr. BEATY. Not the whole time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to see people around that armored car from where you were standing?

Mr. BEATY. Well, tell me when you are talking about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime.

Mr. BEATY. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I don't remember seeing anybody around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the basement and going up to the armored car?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the armored car?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer--did you see an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I couldn't see that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you didn't have a straight view of the ramp?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, could you see any police officers over in there? The place that I am indicating is in the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any police officers?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes officers were standing on this side here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us--I am not asking you who you subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember seeing in that line?

Mr. BEATY. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others were on the other side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you look over here toward the TV cameras----

Mr. BEATY. I am not looking over there much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you see people around the TV cameras?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces?

Mr. BEATY. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over there?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking alongside of Oswald toward the armored car?

Mr. BEATY. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this detail here and pushed them all back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If all of the members of the press were along the Main Street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at least behind the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what function did you people who were stationed along where you have marked your "X," that wall that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street ramp, what function were you people going to have?

Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up against the wall, weren't you?

Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do?

Mr. BEATY. When?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Ruby shot Oswald.

Mr. BEATY. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that--you don't have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them a diagram to have them cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that corner, fine. At that time there were people all around here and out in the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been people there?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; there had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You then displaced news people, is that right?

Mr. BEATY. No; whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from where you were?

Mr. BEATY. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. BEATY. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my opinion is why we was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was.

Mr. BEATY. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought Oswald out here, they all, Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved back behind this line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about the entrance to the Commerce Street and Main Street ramp right along here----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a circle where Oswald was.

Mr. BEATY. The three of them were there along here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have written "Oswald."

Mr. BEATY. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the ramp area here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These started to move out?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the people on your side?

Mr. BEATY. There was only about four of us over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You people stayed where you were?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were on the ramp side, which you call the north side----

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir; I would call it the north side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What you have called the north side opposite where you were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of instinctively?

Mr. BEATY. No; they moved out before he got out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. BEATY. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I don't know, that were along here. They had two people stationed out here, a reserve and a----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "X" where these reserves were.

Mr. BEATY. To keep these people from coming through here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, were there two reserve officers?

Mr. BEATY. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. BEATY. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some photographers in this area inside the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed circles in the jail office where there were photographers?

Mr. BEATY. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to come out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them went this way and went on out and took their place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. BEATY. Some came back through these double doors, and were standing along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph through the window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and one at--at one of these windows here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't line up along the wall?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; also, to double check this double door after he went by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember whether they did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the jail office?

Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go upstairs with Ruby?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was taken upstairs? What did you do?

Mr. BEATY. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, "Yes, sir."

He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which one, "and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And within 5 minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there?

Mr. BEATY. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember seeing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he went in your group?

Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. BEATY. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back to the police department, did you hear any rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after you got back to the police station were you asked to prepare a report to Chief Curry? Don't look at this. I want you to do this from your own recollection.

Mr. BEATY. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't tell you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the second or third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind of, each day we have a daily report we turn in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a report at the end of the day?

Mr. BEATY. I am not sure whether I did that or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report.

Mr. BEATY. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have anything to do with the narcotics.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have any details of what you did?

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working with, "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." Now, is this Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks on during this discussion?

Mr. BEATY. Yes; it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it?

Mr. BEATY. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report by Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, 1963, as "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64----"

Mr. BEATY. That happened in Garland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But we are marking it here in Dallas.

Mr. BEATY. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter which you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, 1963, and mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5041." I want you to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to read that over?

Mr. BEATY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent to Chief Curry?

Mr. BEATY. That looks like it might be; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit 5040, and this letter, Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have already made on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in either of these?

Mr. BEATY. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about it some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I didn't tell the FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you would want to tell the Commission that you think would be important to us in connection with our investigation?

Mr. BEATY. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the time we took this deposition.

Mr. BEATY. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving it to you and asking you to read it before the interview?

Mr. BEATY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?

Mr. BEATY. You are speaking of the Warren Commission?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BEATY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman and Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were interviewed by any other Federal agent?

Mr. BEATY. No; I am pretty sure I wasn't.

TESTIMONY OF ALVIN R. BROCK

The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the patrolman, Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, to Chief Curry, asking him to make his men available. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. And now I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. BROCK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may swear you?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROCK. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name?

Mr. BROCK. Alvin R. Brock.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. BROCK. Twenty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. BROCK. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. BROCK. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been on the Dallas police department?

Mr. BROCK. Three and a half years.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, how did you make your living?

Mr. BROCK. Worked as assembler in aircraft.

Mr. HUBERT. Assembler--aircraft--what?

Mr. BROCK. As an assembler of aircrafts.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work at that?

Mr. BROCK. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, and before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess prior to that you were going to school?

Mr. BROCK. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a year, and high school before that.

Mr. HUBERT. You graduated from high school?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what particular part of the police department are you in?

Mr. BROCK. Radio patrol.

Mr. HUBERT. That is under what captain?

Mr. BROCK. I work for Captain Talbert.

Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert?

Mr. BROCK. I don't know his first name.

Mr. HUBERT. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the 24th. What time did you go on duty that day?

Mr. BROCK. 7:30 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Then your shift would have ended----

Mr. BROCK. 3:30.

Mr. HUBERT. P.M.?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report at 7:30?

Mr. BROCK. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all reported there.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Dallas police department?

Mr. BROCK. In the basement of the city hall; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had communication by radio, two men----

Mr. BROCK. We were working two men.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you that day?

Mr. BROCK. M. L. Wise.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. BROCK. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is radio patrol office.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you do that?

Mr. BROCK. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there as soon as we could.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get down there?

Mr. BROCK. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. What prowl car were you driving? Do you remember the number of it?

Mr. BROCK. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, not the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the same car usually?

Mr. BROCK. You mean the same----

Mr. HUBERT. Talking about squad 71--I mean, the automobile has a number on it, doesn't it?

Mr. BROCK. Yes; I don't recall what the number--we usually have the same one.

Mr. HUBERT. Same car? What did you do? Park your car in the----

Mr. BROCK. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just north of the--on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley?

Mr. BROCK. In the alley, just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of the city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right?

Mr. BROCK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You put it in that alleyway?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; it was down close to the street there.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you walked up the alley?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to the building and then----

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't go in the building through the back door.

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Through that back door?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you try the back door?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all?

Mr. BROCK. Oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce?

Mr. BROCK. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, down to the city hall that way.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was about what time?

Mr. BROCK. A few minutes after 9.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. BROCK. I don't know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you report to? What did you do?

Mr. BROCK. We reported to 511 patrol office, to Lieutenant Pierce.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Rio Pierce, I think you call him?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What orders did he give you?

Mr. BROCK. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until they decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Patrick Dean, I think?

Mr. BROCK. P. T. Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to him?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time were you posted there?

Mr. BROCK. It would be about 9:30, I would imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your orders?

Mr. BROCK. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Into what?

Mr. BROCK. Into the basement area.

Mr. HUBERT. From what?

Mr. BROCK. Well, about from anywhere--see there was an elevator there that goes to the next floor on it--in the municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the service elevator, are you?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other elevators, they were not working, but the service elevator was the one.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know they weren't working?

Mr. BROCK. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I was--actual time I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area?

Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe it is, right to the--right around the corner from the elevators on the----

Mr. HUBERT. Be to your----

Mr. BROCK. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then.

Mr. HUBERT. If you were facing the east elevator?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the elevator, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want--you know, it won't show up on here, so, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I am going to ask you to sign this with me, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my name beneath that and I'll ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. And now have a look at the map and I would just like you to put, not one spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you walked and watched.

Mr. BROCK. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle.

Mr. BROCK. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs and the elevator, too.

Mr. HUBERT. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street?

Mr. BROCK. Well, I would be facing one or the other there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was guarding elevators and staircase." Right?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. 1 and 2, weren't working at all?

Mr. BROCK. They never opened them the entire time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am marking by putting in "X"?

Mr. BROCK. No one went in or downstairs on the staircase.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever--did you observe this first aid station?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole time you were there?

Mr. BROCK. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he would have to leave the basement area.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he got out?

Mr. BROCK. No one entered after that.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were posted, but let's repeat it to be sure.

Mr. BROCK. I think it was about 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there how long?

Mr. BROCK. Oh, I believe it was 10:45 when I left there.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now. Was there any--any people either entered or left this service elevator during the time you were there?

Mr. BROCK. When I first got down there there were three city employees and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and shortly after I got there, I told them they would have to leave the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you could tell that they were employees?

Mr. BROCK. I have seen them before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know their names?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Men and women?

Mr. BROCK. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a telephone operator there at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. White woman?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they all white people?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I believe, is what he was called--a white man. There was a Negro, two Negroes, one was the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you made them all go upstairs?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come down any more?

Mr. BROCK. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth--fifth floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. As long as you were there?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions about what he was to do?

Mr. BROCK. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down here any more."

Mr. BROCK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And all the time you stayed there he didn't?

Mr. BROCK. It didn't come down any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Who got off of that spot at 10:45?

Mr. BROCK. Sergeant Putnam.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he put you after that?

Mr. BROCK. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto was going to take to the city jail--county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went and helped there?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You drove?

Mr. BROCK. My partner drove; M. L. Wise drove my car.

Mr. HUBERT. Dropped you off?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he drop you off?

Mr. BROCK. Elm and Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there for how long?

Mr. BROCK. Until about 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Who relieved you then?

Mr. BROCK. 11:30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way.

Mr. BROCK. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or hour and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any reserve officers around?

Mr. BROCK. Where?

Mr. HUBERT. Parkland?

Mr. BROCK. There was lots of officers out there. I don't remember seeing any reserve officers out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What? The badge?

Mr. BROCK. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police Reserve Officer," or "Reserve Officer," of some sort and they don't carry guns. All they carry is a nightstick.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Newman?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, by name, that I can recall right now.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you see another officer on duty in the basement but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce?

Mr. BROCK. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere in this area.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the arrow points--let the record show that the arrow pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am writing, "Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," and I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with this smaller circle. Do you know that reserve officer's name?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I just noticed him there. I didn't----

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay there about the same time you did?

Mr. BROCK. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area here [indicating], because he was walking around, back and forth in this area around the staircase and around where I was assigned, also.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with "1," and----

Mr. BROCK. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on it this way.

Mr. HUBERT. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where you saw this reserve officer walking up and down?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you don't know his name?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first got there?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He came later? Was he there when you left?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read these two statements?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to mark them for identification as follows: "An FBI report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And signing my name underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and I'm also marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, the original, apparently, has been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am signing my name. It has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both of these documents?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first with the FBI report which has been marked "5114"?

Mr. BROCK. These are true, to the best of my memory.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that true of 5115, too?

Mr. BROCK. That would be the other one? Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they represent what you know?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir; they--I think they represent all that I know about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, 5114, 5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter?

Mr. BROCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that would----

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this deposition?

Mr. BROCK. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that's all. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DETECTIVE B. H. COMBEST

The testimony of Detective B. H. Combest was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of B. H. Combest. Mr. Combest, my name is Leon D. Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Combest, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Mr. Combest, you appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to your Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules, however, also provide that a witness may waive this notice. Are you willing now to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name, sir?

Mr. COMBEST. Billy H. Combest.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, your name is Billy and not William?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is Billy.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. COMBEST. Thirty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. COMBEST. 2803 Linhaven, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. COMBEST. Detective for the city of Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so employed?

Mr. COMBEST. With the department a little over 9 years. I have been a detective about 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24th, 1963?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir, I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that one of your regular working days or had you been called in specially?

Mr. COMBEST. No, my regular working day.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, I knew him very well by sight. I had seen him numerous occasions before, over a period of approximately 4, 4-1/2 years. I knew him through business with the--checking his location for violations, routine checks by the police.

Mr. HUBERT. Would there be any doubt that you would recognize him as soon as you saw him?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You would recognize him even in a crowd of people?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I would have.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it make any difference in your recognition if he had a hat on or not?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Combest, I ask you to identify some documents and in order for the record to show that we are talking about the same thing, I am going to mark them. I now mark what appears to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to J. E. Curry, chief of police, and the original apparently was signed by you, as, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5099. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr., on the first page. On the second page, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I am also marking for identification what purports to be a report of the FBI of an interview with you by Special Agents Dallman and Quigley on December 2, 1963, consisting of four pages, putting on this first page, in the right side margin the following, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5101. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I am signing my name on the first page below that and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three succeeding pages. Now, Mr. Combest, you have read the letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, which I have marked Exhibit 5099. Does that document represent the truth, so far as you know it?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comments to make about it?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now let's turn to a document which I have marked 5101, which is the FBI report, and I will ask you if you have read that?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. If you have any comments to make on that, corrections, deletions, anything been omitted?

Mr. COMBEST. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, I want to know whether this represents a true, full statement of the interview and what you said, or didn't say, and let's have an explanation of it.

Mr. COMBEST. Okay, sir. On the fourth page there, the third paragraph where----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. COMBEST. They relate to the person named as Newman. They misunderstood me, evidently, on that. He does work at the Theatre Lounge as it so states there, but Ruby does not have anything to do with the Theatre Lounge. This is another so-called strip joint in the downtown area.

Mr. HUBERT. Here is the sentence we are talking about. "He did recall, however, that an individual by the name of Newman, first name unknown, was formerly district supervisor for the liquor control board, worked for Ruby at the Theatre Lounge." Now, your statement is that that is an incorrect statement of what you said?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you correct it, please?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, the question was did I know of any police officers that had worked for Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. COMBEST. At the time I told him, "No," I did not and I explained possibly where they had gotten their information was that a reserve police officer had made a statement to some news media that he had worked for Jack Ruby, but he is not a regular policeman for the city of Dallas, and I also told him that possibly what they had heard that this L. L. Newman, who formerly worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board was working at the Theatre Lounge in the downtown area, and possibly that was what they had heard.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you actually told them that there were two Newmans involved, one who had been a reserve officer----

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I do not recall the name of the reserve officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Two different individuals, one, who had been a reserve officer and one who had been with the Texas Liquor Control Board?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement to them was that possibly what they were thinking about when they were questioning you was that the Newman who had worked for the Texas Liquor Control Board was the one you thought had once worked for the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Ruby have any connection with the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did, as a matter of fact?

Mr. COMBEST. It is either Abe or Barney Weinstein. One of the brothers owned the Theatre Lounge. One of the brothers owns the Colony Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that perhaps I should call your attention to the next sentence, too, because you may want to correct it in the light of this testimony. The next sentence which is the last sentence of the very top paragraph of the last page of Exhibit 5101 reads as follows: "Newman terminated his employment with the State about a year and a half ago and it would have been possibly about that time that he started working for Ruby."

Mr. COMBEST. No; there again, evidently they misunderstood me. It was possibly that time that he went to work for the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Have you any other comments to make with reference to the FBI report, which is Exhibit 5101?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, I believe it is on page 3, first paragraph, in--where they say, I didn't--didn't observe Ruby make any statement at the time of the shooting, could not recall Ruby making statements.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I understand that you wish to comment on or make some correction in a sentence on the third page of Exhibit 5101, which sentence begins on the sixth line from the top of the page and reads as follows: "As best he could recall Ruby had what could be described as a determined look, or grimace on his face, and he could recall Ruby making no statement in conjunction with his action." Now, I understand you want to comment on that sentence?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it may be correct as it is said there. I don't--the way I was--the way I say it is not exactly the way I meant it. I told them he was talking. He was making statements but I could not recall anything word by word to tell them or any exact words that he said at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that is true now, that you can't recall any exact words that he said at the time.

Mr. COMBEST. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But, can you tell us without using the exact words, the sense of what he was saying?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, it appeared to me that at the time he was cursing Oswald, but again, I wasn't close enough to hear the words, his exact words. I could tell he was talking, tell he was making some statements, but I cannot recall anything he said exactly. I wasn't that close.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. In other words, what you are really changing to, instead of the affirmative statement that you couldn't recall Ruby making any statement, you are changing it to say you think he was saying something but you couldn't hear?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. What other corrections do you have then?

Mr. COMBEST. That's all I have, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With the corrections that you have noted in the FBI report, which have been marked for identification as Exhibit 5101, did you consider that the FBI report is a fair statement of what you said to the FBI agent involved?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. And it represents the truth?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, and so that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document, I would like you to sign your name below mine here on Exhibit 5099 and initial the second page below my initial, and do the same thing with Exhibit 5101.

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. Did you say that there was four pages on that earlier? There are five, I believe, aren't there?

Mr. HUBERT. Beg your pardon, sure are. It has been brought to my attention that Exhibit 5101, which I have previously identified as having four pages, in fact, has five, and I notice now that I have failed to place my initial on the second page, apparently having missed it, so, I now place my initial on the second page. All being initialed now. I have marked for identification a chart, or floor plan of the Dallas Police Department basement area showing the jail office, the parking area, down ramp from the Main Street, the upper ramp to Commerce Street, and for the purpose of identification with this testimony, I have marked this document as follows: "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964. Exhibit 5100. Deposition of B. H. Combest." I have signed my name under that in order also that we may recognize that we are talking about the same document. I will ask you to put your signature below mine on that document, sir.

When did you first learn about the time of the plan to transfer Oswald?

Mr. COMBEST. Sometime late the preceding day that I heard it through the news media that we were going to transfer him the next morning, and I don't recall the exact time, but the time of transfer was supposed to be pretty early the next morning, the way I understood it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean 5 or 6?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, 7 or 8.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. COMBEST. I believe it was 9 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn't your shift go on at 7, your regular shift?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday it begins at----

Mr. COMBEST. We have a 9 to 5, and a 10 to 6 squad working Sundays.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I know that, the FBI report indicates that. But, you reported to central police headquarters at 7 a.m.?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I overlooked that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is incorrect then?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you want to change the first sentence of the third paragraph on the first page? Exhibit 5101 which states you reported at 7 a.m., to show that you reported at 9 a.m., on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any particular assignment as to the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not before, just shortly before the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from 9 o'clock when you reported until you were given the assignment which we are going to in a minute, you went about your normal duties?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, who gave you that particular assignment and what was it?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, it was Captain Jones who works in the forgery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. He came through the basement of the jail and talked to Detective Beaty and Officer J. D. Hutchinson and, I believe, some other officers there at the time, and told us to remain in the basement and we would be given more specific orders shortly.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that about?

Mr. COMBEST. I would have to refer to my letter there. I don't remember at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. The letter says 10:50 approximately 10:50, is that about right?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?

Mr. COMBEST. We remained there in the basement and shortly Captain Jones came back off the elevator with what appeared to be all the onduty officers in the building at that time. He told us to go outside the jail office in the parking area and into the basement, itself, and there he would station us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do so?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; he did. When he got outside he told us to form a line either side of the passageway leading into the ramp where the vehicles were parked to transfer Oswald, and he gave us orders not to let anyone rush in, not let the lines close in. He also told us to make sure that they didn't fall in behind him, to follow him out after they had passed.

Mr. HUBERT. So, there was a line formed on either side of the jail corridor from the jail door to the basement area where the car was to transport Oswald?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will step over here, please, and have a look at this mockup here. First of all, this is the inside jail office. This is really--this is the corridor swinging door. This is the outside corridor of the jail door. Now, looking at this first, try to fix your position and then I'm going to ask you to place your position on this map once you have related this map to the mockup, so we will have a record on this map of where you were.

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; would have been standing just about here [indicating], just almost to the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am placing--is this it?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am placing a circle where you say you were standing. That is just off the corner of the intersection formed by the jail corridor and the basement ramp, but toward the swinging door in the basement and the jail office?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Right?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And, I'm going to put there, "Position of Combest as stationed by Jones." Is that correct?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am circling that language and attaching the language to the circle that you have indicated. Now, what time did you reach the position that we just marked on the map?

Mr. COMBEST. It would have been approximately 20 minutes before the shooting, which would have placed it at 11, wouldn't it? 11 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at that position until the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I understand that you didn't remain absolutely still, but you didn't walk around?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I stayed in that immediate area right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who was on your right?

Mr. COMBEST. R. L. Lowery. Detective R. L. Lowery.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark his position. That would have put him almost----

Mr. COMBEST. Right at the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Right at the corner?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking that, encircling the language, "Position of R. L. Lowery," and do you remember who was to your left?

Mr. COMBEST. Detective Beaty, Detective B. L. Beaty.

Mr. HUBERT. You were facing in the direction of the Main Street ramp, in the parking area on the Main Street side of the building?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for approximately 20 minutes?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you see out into the parking area on the Main Street side of the building?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I could not. They completely blocked me, television cameras and newsmen on this side--on this side of the rail, and of down in the basement, itself.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking an area which I am going to call "area B," with an oblong circle. Is that the area you are talking about?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that "area B," had television cameras and personnel attending them?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And other people there, so that you were unable to see into the parking area, is that correct?

Mr. COMBEST. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark another area, "area A," and ask if there were any people standing in that area?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes; there were.

Mr. HUBERT. Roughly, how many?

Mr. COMBEST. There were several officers standing here [indicating]. There were some----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "here," you are just pointing to the Commerce Street side of the area that I have marked "area A"?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; also down the line.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were on the opposite side of the corridor from you?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. A semicircle curving toward Commerce Street?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I'm marking a line, which I am going to start off at a point called "1," and have it curve over to a point called "2," is that approximately the line you are talking about?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on that line from "1," to "2" you say there were a number of detectives, or members of the police department?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize any of them?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, I remember "Blackie," that is the nickname, Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. That is W. J. Harrison?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I believe it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he, about?

Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know that he was on that side, and I lost contact with him as soon as Oswald started out. I don't remember if he had moved, or if he was still standing directly across.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in front of the people that I have marked here in "area B," and "area A"?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than the detective, how many people do you suppose were in that "area A," right back of the curving line marked "1" to "2"?

Mr. COMBEST. It would be an estimate on it at this time. I don't recall. There were several. I would say 15, at least.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they were standing shoulder to shoulder?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes; it was pretty crowded all the way around.

Mr. HUBERT. That would make about what, two or three ranks of people?

Mr. COMBEST. I don't recall exactly. I know there was a very large crowd in the basement that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the whole basement?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any people in the area which I am marking roughly by an oblong figure, "area C," which is the ramp leading from the parking area into Main Street, Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in there, too?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; there were several people there, newsmen and also, several officers stationed in that area out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, were the television lights on all the time you were standing there?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they bother you?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, when we first came downstairs it was a little hard to distinguish faces in this area here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. "Area B," the witness is pointing to "area B."

Mr. COMBEST. And until you got used to them it was pretty hard to look into them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get used to them?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I was pretty well used to them at the time the actual transfer took place.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you could distinguish faces of people in "area B"?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you distinguish faces in "area A"?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The lights gave you no trouble by the time the transfer actually took place, is that correct?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. When did you first see Ruby in that crowd?

Mr. COMBEST. Just as they started to lead Oswald past me, at the corner there I observed him lunge from the crowd. Almost the whole line of people pushed forward when Oswald started to leave the jail office, the door, the hall--all the newsmen were poking their sound mikes across to him and asking questions, and they were everyone sticking their flashbulbs up and around and over him and in his face. I don't--when he first lunged forward I don't think anyone noticed him. I didn't until he came apart from the crowd and continued on towards Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did he come from the area--we have marked on this Exhibit 5100 as "area A" or as "area B," sir?

Mr. COMBEST. The best I could tell he would be coming approximately half way between them there, between what you have marked as "area A," and "area B."

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of from the corner there?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to take the pen and mark an "X" on the spot that you first saw Ruby.

Mr. COMBEST. About approximately [indicating], because----

Mr. HUBERT. This was really the front line "1," through "2."

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I'm writing on the map, "Position where Ruby was first seen by Combest." Was he standing still then?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he was stepping forward and--or lunging forward, I guess would be the best way to put it.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him, of course, prior to that moment?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him in the crowd at all?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him coming down?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; when I was standing with the crowd I couldn't see the ramp there, the Main Street ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. You could see a part of it, couldn't you, the bottom?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, no, sir; it slanted up and they had an air conditioner sitting across here where you have to be almost in your--standing directly in the bottom of the ramp you couldn't see the top of it very clearly.

Mr. HUBERT. But, you testified that you knew Ruby's face well enough so that you could distinguish it in a crowd?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had looked into that crowd and your eyes had become accustomed to the lights?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you if you saw him in the crowd before he lunged forward?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you would have seen him had he been in that crowd during the 15 minutes or so prior to that shot, the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. Quite possibly if he had been there very long I believe I would have spotted him. I might not have, but knowing that he didn't belong there I believe I would have spotted him right off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what precautions were taken to assure that people who did not belong there would not be there?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, everyone that went out into the basement from the jail office had to have the press card, proper identification showing that they were members of the press and police officers. Other than that no one was admitted to the basement parking area.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of press cards were honored, and what were dishonored?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, most of the news personnel there had the--had a press card for that--I don't remember the wording. It was something about--"Presidential press party," or something that they had. Of course, it was recognized and then any other card that did have their picture on it, and it had to say they were a member of a press, any newspaper. I remember the Oklahoma City newspaper came in, and they were admitted with their press cards.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they have to have their picture on the press cards?

Mr. COMBEST. The ones I checked, I remember now I wasn't actually stationed there at the cars. There were two uniformed officers here who were actually doing the checking. Of course, I did check some to expedite travel through that narrow corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. What I'm trying to get at, there were no particular press cards issued for this particular occasion?

Mr. COMBEST. Not that I recall; no, sir. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any instances in which you were involved or in which you observed in which persons who were not properly--who didn't have a press card, were removed or questioned?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; in my letter there to Chief Curry I recall there was a girl that worked at the police information desk, which is in the basement, by the records bureau, had went out into the basement, at least on one occasion to summon officers that were wanted on the telephone. On the next time that I noticed her start to go into there, she was stopped by Sergeant Putnam, as I recall it. He advised her that she would not go into the basement if she had messages to officers that were in the basement, and she was not to leave her assignment behind the information desk until the transfer was over. Also, to a civilian employee that worked in the jail booking office proper. He had came out into the parking basement, appeared to have a look around to see what was going on. He was told to get back behind the desk in the jail booking office and remain there until after the transfer was over. Also, one other incident, I think I have also put in my letter there and regarding a reporter for the Oklahoma City News, I believe his name is Jim Standard. He did not have a press card. He was stopped and questioned, but he did have proper identification to prove that he did work for the Oklahoma City newspaper. He had a hospitalization card made out to a group policy of this newspaper in Oklahoma City. Had some letters and correspondence to him, addressed to him at that location, and after convincing myself and Beaty, he convinced Captain Talbert that he was a legitimate member of the press and he was admitted. Two or 3 days after the incident I was in Oklahoma City and I saw the article he had written showing this incident in Dallas and his picture was also in the Oklahoma City paper, and I remembered him. I recognized him. And he wrote a pretty good article on the security in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to Ruby after the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. COMBEST. Again, I heard him talking when he came into the jail office proper, where the booking office is located. As I recall it, they laid him on the floor to put the handcuffs on him more securely. He was talking then as they led him past the spot where Oswald was laying, near the elevator, to take him to jail. He was also talking. He was looking in the direction of Oswald and was talking to the officers that were leading him away. I don't recall any specific statement he made.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir. He--I didn't hear him say a word hardly, after he had been shot. He was moaning at the time Jimmy Leavelle, Graves, and I laid him down on the floor and removed the handcuffs that he had on him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in the jail office?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir. At the time I asked him and talked to him trying to get him to make a statement to me at the time. Especially, after I realized how serious the wound was. When we first asked him he appeared to comprehend what I was saying.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him?

Mr. COMBEST. Well, I told him was there anything that he wanted me to tell anybody or was there anything he wanted to say right now before it was too late, and I don't remember my--exactly the words that I did say to him, but after I realized the seriousness of the wound, of course, trying to let him know if he was ever going to say anything he was going to have to say it then.

Mr. HUBERT. You thought he was dying?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you think you used language to him to convey to him your idea that he was dying?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any indication that he actually understood what you were trying to convey to him?

Mr. COMBEST. When I first started asking him he did. He looked up at me, seemed to recognize that I--who was talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't mean that he recognized you as a person?

Mr. COMBEST. He recognized that I was the person talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. But, he didn't say anything?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; just shook his head and I said, "Do you have anything you want to tell us now," and he shook his head.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not say the word "No"?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; he did not say anything at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him that if he had any accomplices or wanted to clarify the shooting of the President, that he had better do it right quick?

Mr. COMBEST. Not in those words. I didn't mention "accomplice," or anything. I was real excited at the time but I kept talking to him as long as I thought that he would try to answer me, hoping that he would give a dying declaration on the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think you used language sufficiently clear to him to indicate to him that in your opinion he was dying and on account of the fact that he was dying it was just about the last time he would have a chance to say anything about the shooting of the President, or the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter?

Mr. COMBEST. What was the question, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby, thereafter?

Mr. COMBEST. I didn't see him until after he had passed through the jail office. Now, in the jail elevator. The next time I saw him at the preliminary hearing in Judge Brown's office in the court house.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't hear him say anything else?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard anything that would indicate to you that any member of the police department actually saw Ruby in the garage prior to the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; not on this day, this particular day.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about this day.

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any member of the police department ask you whether you had seen Ruby prior to the shooting?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. COMBEST. Lieutenant Revill, Jack Revill and Lieutenant Cornwall. Now, they were members of a group that were investigating within the police department, and I was interrogated by them as to if I had seen him that day.

Mr. HUBERT. And your answer was the same as it was----

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it was "no."

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion by these gentlemen or anybody else that you should say that you had not seen him?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments that you would like to make that have not been said or reported in any way that you know of by you concerning the matter that we have been talking about this morning?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion, and concerning your letter, which has been identified as 5099, the FBI report of the interview with you which has been identified as 5101, and this deposition today represents all you know about this, completely?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. HUBERT. And all of it is correct and true?

Mr. COMBEST. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, has there been any interview between me and you, or you and any other member of the Commission's staff other than this deposition this morning?

Mr. COMBEST. No, sir; there have not.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH HUDSON CROY

The testimony of Kenneth Hudson Croy was taken at 10:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff to the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up under Presidential Resolution No. 11130, signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. As a result of this Presidential Executive order and the Presidential resolution, the Commission has been given authority to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and I have been authorized in accordance with those rules to take your sworn deposition, Mr. Croy.

I want to explain to you a little bit first before we go forward with the deposition of what this testimony, why we are taking the testimony. The Commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, and reporting back to the President on all of the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are particularly concerned here today in calling you, with delving into the events surrounding Oswald's death, although if you have any other information that you feel would be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like very much to have that.

Now, I also want to explain to you, Mr. Croy, that you have been asked to appear here today as a result of a letter which was sent by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the Commission, to Chief Curry, and your name was listed on that and Chief Curry arranged to set up the schedule. I should tell you that under the rules of the Commission you are actually entitled to get a 3-day written notice before we can require you to appear here. However, we do have a provision in the rules that permit you to waive the notice if you are agreeable to it.

Now, the first thing I want to do is ask you if you would like us to send you the letter, and I want to make it clear that we do send these letters out as a routine matter, and if for any reason you feel that you would like to have advance notice and so forth, that we haven't really given you, why feel free to tell me now.

Mr. CROY. No; I would just have to come back down here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you are willing to waive?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also want to explain to you that you have a right to be represented by counsel before this Commission and again, many of the people are represented by counsel. I want you to understand that we, in fact, encourage people to come here with an attorney if they feel there is any reason at all that it might be useful to them. I see that you are not here with an attorney right now, and I presume that this is of your own choice.

However, if you would like to have an attorney, I wish you would let me know about it and we would be happy to make arrangements for further time when you could have one.

Mr. CROY. I don't see what I would need an attorney for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think in most cases it is not really necessary, except from the attorney's standpoint.

Mr. CROY. He gets paid for doing nothing anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some of them do.

Mr. CROY. This one does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you an attorney?

Mr. CROY. No. I have my own attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I shouldn't have asked that question. All right, if it is agreeable with you, I will ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give us your full name?

Mr. CROY. Kenneth Hudson Croy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. CROY. 1658 Glenfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. CROY. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. CROY. February 21, 1937.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. CROY. I have several.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's have them in order.

Mr. CROY. I am in the real estate business. I have a Mobil service station. I am in the steel erection business. And I am a professional cowboy, and that is about it that I can think of right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We Yankees up North don't know what professional cowboys are.

Mr. CROY. Rodeo. You got rodeos up North.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; they come up once in a while and alternate with circuses. How long have you been doing that?

Mr. CROY. Oh, about 12 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would not like to waste all the court reporter's time talking about this, I don't think the Commission would probably be too interested.

Are you also connected in some way with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CROY. I am in the reserves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the reserves.

Mr. CROY. Since August of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any rank in the reserves?

Mr. CROY. I am a sergeant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to take out a little time here and mark two documents. One of them is a report of an interview that you had on December 4, 1963, with FBI Agents John E. Dallman and R. Neil Quigley.

I have marked this particular document that I just referred to "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5051."

I want to hand this to you, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that over?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Do you have any additions, deletions, or corrections that you feel should be made in that report?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are satisfied with the report, let me ask you then to sign it and date it.

Mr. CROY. Where at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page there some place near where we have marked it with an exhibit number, some conspicuous spot.

Mr. CROY. [Signs name.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and signed by you in the following manner: "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5052."

Would you look at this, Mr. Croy, and would you tell me if you have had an opportunity to read that over?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, deletions, or corrections that you would make with the respect to the accuracy of that letter?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, would you sign that and date it also in the same manner that you did the other one?

Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I have also marked for identification what purports to be a copy of an affidavit in fact, sworn to before A. L. Curtis, a notary public, by you on December 1, 1963, and I have marked that "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5053."

I am going to hand you that, Mr. Croy, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to look that over?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is that a true and accurate copy of an affidavit which you prepared on that date?

Mr. CROY. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign it and date it, please?

Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you report to the jail or the police department on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you come in, do you recall?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, your letter of November 26 indicates you came in at 8:35?

Mr. CROY. That is probable.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, sometime after you came in, you were assigned to guard a particular area of the basement; is that correct?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what you were assigned to do?

Mr. CROY. When I came into the city hall, I went to the assembly room, and that is where any initial assignments are made, in the assembly room, making up the muster and the roster of the reserve officers that arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. CROY. Well, I was in and out of there, between there and the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on that duty?

Mr. CROY. I never was relieved from that duty. I went in there, but I never was relieved from it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have stated in your letter to Chief Curry of November 26, 1963, in paragraph 3, "I was assigned to the basement and jail office entrance, and my assignment was that of a guard."

Mr. CROY. Well, that was in the entire thing down there is what--everyone in the basement was considered a guard at the same time, if you are standing in front of the entrances, elevators, or in the back of the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you never had any particular station of duty there?

Mr. CROY. No. I wasn't just assigned a spot and told to stay there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time when you stationed yourself at the foot of the Main Street ramp in the basement?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that? For how long before Oswald came out, would you estimate?

Mr. CROY. Well, I couldn't really estimate, because it has been almost 4 months ago and I don't really know how long it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you took up your position at the base of the ramp, had the armored car arrived?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The armored car was already there? You weren't there at any time when the armored car was not there?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you give us any statement of how long you were there? Were you there for 2 minutes prior to the time Oswald came down?

Mr. CROY. I was longer than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there 15 minutes?

Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't remember whether I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you were there as long as 5 minutes?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as long as 10 minutes?

Mr. CROY. I couldn't say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in one general area when you stationed yourself at the bottom of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to be stationed at that position?

Mr. CROY. There was another officer, a regular officer, I believe, commented that they needed at least three more officers at that particular position.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that regular officer was?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't. I don't even know who he was. I just remember there was a regular officer, supervisory officer in uniform stated they needed at least three more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he state this to you personally, or were you in a group at that time?

Mr. CROY. I was just standing out there on this ramp leading into the basement where the two ramps lead down into the basement, and he stepped out there, and as well as I remember, just made a quick check and pointed out that he needed at least three men at that location.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from the time that you finished doing your clerical work when you first came in, until you all were ultimately stationed at the base of the Main Street ramp, did you have any particular responsibilities?

Mr. CROY. Yes. There were several reserve officers that were coming right directly into the basement, and the first reported to the assembly room to get their assignments or be told what to do.

I would take these men and take them in there and get them mustered in on the roster so we would know they were there and have a record.

I would either tell them where to report, or take them to a certain station and station them there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, do you recall if you were in the basement when Captain Jones was there?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you were in the basement when a group of regular police officers, detectives and so forth came into the basement from the public elevators that go up into the police building, and walked through the swinging door and were given assignments by a regular officer of some sort? Were you there at that time?

Mr. CROY. I don't guess I was; I don't recall it at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, while you were stationed at the base of the Main Street ramp, do you recall if you saw any cars go in and out of the basement?

Mr. CROY. There was one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw one car?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were in the basement generally before you were stationed at the ramp, did you see any cars go in and out of the garage or basement area?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe how much traffic there was?

Mr. CROY. No. There wasn't any squads bringing prisoners in, that I recall. I don't recall any of that.

I recall one car leaving, going up the south ramp, one car that I know of, because I knew who was in that car.

And other than that one and the one that went up the north ramp, I don't recall any other cars going out of the basement area. There could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much before you saw that one last car go up the Main Street ramp, how long would you say you had been in the basement? How long before that had you been at your station in the basement?

Mr. CROY. What do you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start over again. How long had you been at this station which you had at the base of the Main Street ramp prior to the time that the last car went up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. How long had I been in the basement before then?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been in the general area at the base of the ramp? Continuously?

Mr. CROY. I don't know, I guess a couple or 3 minutes, something like that. I remember that because he nearly ran over my toes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were standing at the base of the ramp prior to the time that the car went up the ramp, do you remember whether any equipment of any sort was moved into the basement area?

Mr. CROY. Equipment?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. Just anything moved in there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any activities of newspaper people or of TV people?

Mr. CROY. Oh, they were milling all over the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any movement of equipment?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a TV camera being rolled through the swinging double doors at the entrance, almost at the entrance to the Main Street ramp or the bottom ramp, and being wheeled in any direction? Being pushed, a TV camera?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall any bringing in there. They had them down there in the basement all morning, that I remember. I don't remember bringing in any more in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you recall the three TV cameras being stationed there? At this point I would like to hand you my pen and ask you if you would mark on there?

Mr. CROY. You want an "X"?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Make a rectangle and write TV inside of it.

Mr. CROY. [Marks.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have indicated on the map that there were two behind the railing, sort of directly opposite the hallway that leads out from the double doors?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that there was a third one over against the railing of the entrance to the garage closer to Commerce Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that all of those were placed in that position that they were in, or do you think they could have been someplace else?

Mr. CROY. They were placed there when I walked in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would you tell us what happened at the time that this automobile went up the Main Street ramp? Which side of the automobile were you standing on? Were you standing between it and the railing, or were you standing between it and the wall?

Mr. CROY. It and the wall on the left hand side of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many people were in that area, would you say, in the general area across from the wall that you were near, and the railing across?

Mr. CROY. Police officers and press?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many would you say were there?

Mr. CROY. I couldn't say. I don't know. There was several there. They were all standing out in here, and when the car came out, everybody had to get out of the way and let the car get through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any effort to help push the people back?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As cars went up the ramp and got ahead of you people, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I watched it go up the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it stop at the top of the ramp?

Mr. CROY. No; I just watched it going up the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the police officer there at the top of the ramp?

Mr. CROY. Not at that time, I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point did you lose sight? Where was the car when you lost sight of the car at the top of the ramp?

Mr. CROY. When he got almost to the top of the ramp, I turned back around. I didn't watch it drive on out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. As you looked around, did you see anything of significance?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when somebody gave you instructions to move the press back against the railing?

Mr. CROY. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. CROY. Prior to them bringing Oswald down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. It was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any substantial length of time after?

Mr. CROY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what makes you sure that it was after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. Because it was just prior to them bringing, just prior to them bringing him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you were told that, if you were to assume that that car moved out of the ramp, approximately 1 minute before Oswald was shot, would you still feel that this order to move the people back from the railing was given after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you think it could have been as little as, no more than a minute after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. I don't know how long it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel it was more than a minute after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think this order was given more than a minute after the car went up the ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the officer standing who gave that order?

Mr. CROY. Somewhere in this general area. He just stepped out of the little hallway leading to the jail office. I don't know who it was. He was a detective.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. CROY. In plain clothes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him emerge from the jail office?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He said move everybody back?

Mr. CROY. Well, he didn't say move everybody back. He said move back against the railing. At that particular time they were all crowded out in here and all the way around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the area right in front of the TV cameras?

Mr. CROY. And he said, move the press back against the railing, this group right here. They didn't move them back because they wasn't actually--what they were trying to do was clear a hall because they were crowded right up to the entrance right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was a group that was standing across the Main Street ramp that wasn't pushed back?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing? Would you mark on the diagram where you were standing when the order was given to push the people back?

Mr. CROY. Do you want me to put an "X"?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "C" in there and put a circle around it.

Mr. CROY. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you turn around and move the crowd back?

Mr. CROY. There was a man with a camera, movie camera, sitting on his shoulder, standing next to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which direction were you facing?

Mr. CROY. I was facing to the south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward Commerce Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes; he would have been to my left. And there was also another fellow standing just slightly in back of him.

And when he gave this order to move the people back, I thought he referred to everyone moving against the rail, because I was in back of this other group of the press. I didn't bother with them. I let the ones in front of them take care of them, and I turned to the man with the camera and this other fellow and told them to move back against the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize this other fellow?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized?

Mr. CROY. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe I don't understand your affidavit here. You stated in here, "someone in authority gave instructions to move the press back against the rail. At that time I turned and told two men standing to my left to move back against the rail. One of these men had a motion picture camera. The other one was in a dark maroon coat with black thread woven into it. He was wearing a black hat. My father has a coat something similar to the man I spoke to.

"I then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing in front of me. I believe this man to have been Jack Ruby."

The "to" is underlined. Which man are you referring to?

Mr. CROY. The man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. The other man I told to move back against the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss Reporter, would you please turn back in your notes and read where he referred to the position of the reporters?

(The following questions and answers were read:

"Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized?

"Mr. CROY. Where?

"Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you?

"Mr. CROY. No.")

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will the reporter please indicate in the record what portion was read back to the witness?

Now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony.

Mr. CROY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. You have said here, if I understand it in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby.

Mr. CROY. I believe when I wrote that up it was him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man wasn't Jack Ruby?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby?

Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. CROY. I don't know whether it was or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you came to believe that man was Jack Ruby?

Mr. CROY. Well, as I was standing there and this blur came from my left, someone running, and he run by me at a pretty good clip, he was gaining momentum and he ran by me. I got a glimpse of his coat and the coat matched the one that I had told this fellow to move back. At least it seemed to me it did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man over against the railing?

Mr. CROY. No; after I turned my attention back to the reporters, I glanced back over my shoulder to see if they had done what I told them to, and the man with the camera had gotten on the railing where could get a good shot. The other fellow, I didn't see him.

I didn't turn completely all the way around to see if he was in back of me. I just glanced over my shoulder, so I presume he had gotten against the railing or had moved around with the other reporters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far were you from the railing after you pushed the reporters back over in that direction?

Mr. CROY. I didn't push them. I asked them to step back over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. I was standing about midways to the ramp. Do you know how wide that ramp is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a line, a group of people in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched across from the wall to the railing across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people would you say were stretched across there?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was quite a few there, but I have no idea how many were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any people--as you turned back, were you also part of a line, a second line? Were you part of a second line?

Mr. CROY. Not that I know. I was just standing there. There were other officers to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, one straggled line, this first line in front of you?

Mr. CROY. What do you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of people?

Mr. CROY. About two deep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you behind that group of people?

Mr. CROY. I was behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far behind them were you?

Mr. CROY. Oh, a couple of feet or 3 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back where you were standing, were people as closely bunched up as other people were?

Mr. CROY. There wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people I told to move back. To my right there were several other officers standing there with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Arnett one of the officers?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you show us where Captain Arnett was?

Mr. CROY. [Marks.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to Captain Arnett's right?

Mr. CROY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say there was nobody to your left except a man with a movie camera?

Mr. CROY. He got back upon the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this man got up on the railing, there was nobody that you can recall to your left?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you think Ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be Ruby, moved from and to? Could you show us where?

Mr. CROY. Do you mean after I told him to move?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. I don't know where he moved to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he when you first saw him moving? Did you see him moving?

Mr. CROY. Maybe I don't understand you. As he ran into the crowd?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. CROY. After Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. Where did I see him again? About right there [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Yes; well, to my side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you put a "R" there where you saw him?

Mr. CROY. [Makes mark.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody in front of him at that point?

Mr. CROY. Yes; there was reporters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were reporters. Now, what did he do as he got to these reporters?

Mr. CROY. He ran through them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he push them aside, or what?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him push them?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see a man shoved?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which man got shoved?

Mr. CROY. These reporters. He just lowered his head and ran through them like a fullback went through a line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see his motion when he was in front of you?

Mr. CROY. Caught a glimpse of his motion. I have a wide range. I could see over here. I saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time I turned, he was in position. He was already in front of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step before you had seen him?

Mr. CROY. He had a good head of steam up, I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Captain King?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Detective Blackie Harrison?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the people that you saw Ruby push through?

Mr. CROY. Well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get closer to Ruby. I mean to Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any police officers near Ruby at the time that he moved through that line?

Mr. CROY. There were no uniform police officers. If there were some detectives there, I don't know, because I didn't know any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were down in the basement, the 5-minute period that you were in the basement, were you able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper people?

Mr. CROY. No; I was in the basement longer than 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The period that you were stationed at the base of the ramp, the 15 minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the uniformed officers from the newspaper people?

Mr. CROY. Uniformed officers; yes. The detectives; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You couldn't distinguish them? All right. Are you able to describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that Ruby moved there, in comparison to him?

Mr. CROY. No; because this man had run through, Ruby, if it was Ruby, was in a crouch. He was running low. The newspapermen were of average height and average build.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How could you tell that the two men he pushed were newspaper reporters?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. They might have been police officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or microphone or a pad of paper or anything?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether they did or not. They were actually standing in front of me and I was looking at their backs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been taken of the basement area?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you saw that photograph? Was it a photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something?

Mr. CROY. Television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A TV film?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what station you saw that on?

Mr. CROY. All of them. No; I don't. They just ran it and ran it and reran it, and every time I was in the room, someone said, "There you are," and I looked again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a showing that the police department made to you, or were you shown any films by the police department?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw this film on the regular, your home TV set, something like that?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in any of these films a shot of Ruby standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were shown these particular movie films, TV films that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us?

Mr. CROY. Well, the ones that I saw were the ones that I was trying to get the gun from Ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was all over, and I was standing in the entrance to the jail office. Those are the only ones I have seen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't see a picture of yourself at the time Ruby started to move out toward Oswald?

Mr. CROY. No; I saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, but I wasn't visible in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any one of these films that you watched show you reaching out and touching the coat of Ruby?

Mr. CROY. No; none that I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you met Jack Ruby before, haven't you?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many occasions had you seen Jack Ruby before he came into the basement?

Mr. CROY. Once, that I can recall. I may have seen him many times before that, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in the downtown area?

Mr. CROY. Sometimes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say you did duty in the downtown area?

Mr. CROY. Requires once a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular man that you always did duty with?

Mr. CROY. Yes; there was one that I did ride quite a bit with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CROY. J. W. Dyson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode with?

Mr. CROY. I didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice since I have been in the reserves, I don't guess. As a district in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the Vegas Club?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would you ride in that area?

Mr. CROY. I have ridden out there a couple or three times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you ride that area with?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just went to the substation and checked out with the squad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Dyson assigned to that area?

Mr. CROY. No; he is an APB.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is West Illinois Avenue anywhere near the Vegas Club?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about around 1720 South Lamar, is that anywhere near?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever testified in any court case before?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did there come a time when you ran up the Main Street ramp and stopped reporters leaving?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after this scuffle on the floor?

Mr. CROY. That is hard to say, because it was right there, you might say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the basement."

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand up there at the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CROY. Oh, just a few minutes. Then I moved to the entrance into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mr. CROY. A good while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what time did you go off duty?

Mr. CROY. It was about 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen a man brush by you who you thought was Ruby?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell at that time?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Reserve Lieutenant McCoy?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall if I mentioned it or not to Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson, I may have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nicholson?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lieutenant McCoy say when you told him that?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you tell him about it?

Mr. CROY. We were just talking about it later on that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what were you saying?

Mr. CROY. We were just talking about what happened in the basement, where he was at and where I was at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you speculating about where he came from or how he got in or anything like that?

Mr. CROY. A little bit, I am trying to figure out what the heck happened, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other officers in the basement doing that also?

Mr. CROY. They were doing it just between theirselves. There wasn't any group talking about it, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was it that you talked, approximately, to Lieutenant McCoy?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your position up on the Main Street ramp, or was it a long time after?

Mr. CROY. It was a pretty good while after. An hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. An hour or so?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that you told this Lieutenant McCoy and you went off duty, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I sat up in the city planning room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there in the city planning room?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy and Reserve Lieutenant Barney Merrell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else you can recall?

Mr. CROY. Reserve Lieutenant Nicholson. And there was Captain Solomon up there, and Captain Arnett, and several other reserve officers, that we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing up there?

Mr. CROY. Making assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was giving you directions?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant McCoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of assignments were you making?

Mr. CROY. Placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get some more help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some time to sit around and talk?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the basement?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell these men out there about Ruby brushing past you?

Mr. CROY. I talked to Lieutenant McCoy about it. I don't know whether Mike Nicholson and Merrell were there at that particular time or not. I don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon at that time make any request that people write reports about what they had seen?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the regular officers, these other people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make reports?

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't know they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of what happened in the basement?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You expected that while you were sitting up there in the office?

Mr. CROY. I had a pretty good hunch they would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your business offices?

Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand?

Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to?

Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it?

Mr. CROY. Just a while ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that you prepared in your own hand in the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that statement?

Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby?

Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. Curtis?

Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be notarized by him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to the police department that day?

Mr. CROY. They called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?

Mr. CROY. Captain Arnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Captain Arnett down at the police department?

Mr. CROY. Yes, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up?

Mr. CROY. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up?

Mr. CROY. Lieutenant Revill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him about this, about your having seen Ruby? Did Lieutenant Revill have any information before him about your having seen Ruby go into the, brush by you?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't have any information to that effect?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be called down there?

Mr. CROY. Because of my position in the basement where I was standing when he shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did Captain Solomon say to you when you told what you had seen to Revill? Did Revill indicate that he had heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this?

Mr. CROY. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?

Mr. CROY. Yes; Lieutenant, I think his name is Cornwall, he was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got the impression from the way they spoke, or any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this information before?

Mr. CROY. Well, they didn't act surprised. They didn't act like they didn't know about it. It kind of tied in with the other reports that they had gotten, I presume, from the way they acted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was the general attitude on their part in the taking of these statements. Did you feel that there was some, Cornwall and Revill were concerned about this situation?

Mr. CROY. Yes; they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe their general attitude in this interview?

Mr. CROY. They were very interested.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you tell me more about that?

Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?

Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Croy, I take it that you actually talked to them on November, the last day of November was the first time you talked to them, and then you signed this on the first day of December?

Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had it notarized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that examination the way you and I have been going back and forth here?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of drafts to this statement? You say it took you 2 days to draw this up. Had you written a number?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write something first?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them?

Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they critical of you in any way for not having ejected Ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know who he was when you first saw him?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I didn't know who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a newspaper reporter?

Mr. CROY. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell that to Lieutenant Revill and Captain Cornwall?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Ruby location at the time Croy saw him moving toward Oswald." Is that a fair description of what the hieroglyphics on here mean?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Mr. Croy, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5054," and what I have marked on is the chart upon which you made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you saw a man you believed to be Ruby run toward Oswald.

Now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate copy of the real McCoy. Would you date it also?

Mr. CROY. [Signs and dates.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have any other information that you could provide the Commission of any significance?

Mr. CROY. None other than what we have talked about right here.

(Statement to witness by court reporter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about Tippit?

Mr. CROY. Oh, it was at the scene over where Officer Tippit was killed, at the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the scene when Tippit was there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unassigned?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are nodding your head?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time were you at the scene where Tippit was killed?

Mr. CROY. I watched them load him in the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you on reserve duty that day?

Mr. CROY. Yes. I was stationed downtown in the, I believe it was the 1800 or 1900 block of Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a patrol car?

Mr. CROY. No; I was on foot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?

Mr. CROY. In uniform.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. CROY. Sitting in my car at the city hall. I would guess, I don't know, because I didn't know he was shot until, I guess, several minutes after it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where you were located when you heard he was shot?

Mr. CROY. No. I was on Main Street trying to go home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were driving your car down Main Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About where were you on Main Street?

Mr. CROY. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Griffin Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. CROY. I didn't do anything. I was right in the middle of the street with my car hemmed in from both sides. I couldn't go anywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I went by the courthouse there and there were several officers standing there, and I asked if they needed any help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive your car to the courthouse?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which courthouse?

Mr. CROY. There was only one courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a county courthouse?

Mr. CROY. There is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Federal courthouse, also, but this is the one right there by the plaza and near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CROY. The old red courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Houston Street?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. CROY. Houston and Main and Elm.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you heard that President Kennedy was shot did you arrive there?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I guess it took me at least 20 minutes to drive those few blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you say it was when you arrived at the courthouse?

Mr. CROY. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see when you arrived there?

Mr. CROY. Oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of assistance?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you inquire of?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. They were just standing on the corner, and I asked if I could be of any assistance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I proceeded on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which way did you drive home?

Mr. CROY. Out Thornton to Colorado, and Colorado to--I can't think of the street. It was Marsalis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that----

Mr. CROY. Or Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thornton to Zangs?

Mr. CROY. Thornton to Colorado to Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then out Zangs and in a westerly direction?

Mr. CROY. No. That is when I heard the call on Tippit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at the corner of Zangs and Colorado?

Mr. CROY. When the call came out on Tippit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CROY. I proceeded to the location where Tippit was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. CROY. I think it was in the 400 block of East 10th, I believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what street intersection that was?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that area out there?

Mr. CROY. Just residential.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there----

Mr. CROY. Where Tippit was killed, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you went to where Tippit was?

Mr. CROY. Well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. The street immediately south of that, Jefferson, is business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, I am just referring to the street you found him on. When you got there, was Tippit's car there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tippit there?

Mr. CROY. They were loading him in the ambulance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other officers on the scene?

Mr. CROY. None that I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. CROY. Got me a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get ahold of?

Mr. CROY. It was a woman standing across the street from me. I don't recall her name. She gave me her name at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?

Mr. CROY. She told me that she saw Tippit get out of the car, and I don't recall, I think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then ran. She was pretty hysterical at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you where she first saw Oswald?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. There was, as I recall, there was 2 people who saw it. No; 3. A man in a, taxicab driver. However, she was the main eyewitness, as far as I could make out. She saw the actual shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with her?

Mr. CROY. Oh, a good 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her?

Mr. CROY. Yes; and no. I talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then I talked to her, and just after I located a witness, the squad did get there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This conversation all took place near the scene of the Tippit killing?

Mr. CROY. Leaning up against his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did she tell you where she was that she first saw Oswald?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall whether she did or not. She was pretty hysterical and not much that she said made too much sense.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she saying?

Mr. CROY. She talked very incoherent at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What information were you able to get out of her at that time?

Mr. CROY. The only information I could get out of her was the description of what Oswald had on, and him shooting him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you at that time that he had on?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what he had on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall what it was. She just gave a description there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you file any report of your activities this day?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the other officers who were there with you when you were interviewing this woman?

Mr. CROY. No; I know them on sight. They all work in Oak Cliff and I don't know the names. I just know when I see them driving down the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver?

Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness?

Mr. CROY. As far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver?

Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned him over to them and they questioned him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked with there?

Mr. CROY. I believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. He said he saw Oswald just walk up the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction did he say?

Mr. CROY. He didn't say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he saw Oswald walking some blocks to where he got to before he got to Tippit's car?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you that he saw Oswald do walking up the street?

Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other lady said that, I believe it was, that Tippit had stopped him and called him over to the car, and he came around to the driver's side, because Tippit was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oswald came around?

Mr. CROY. To the driver's side of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the lady that said that?

Mr. CROY. The lady said that, and she said, I think she said, he stuck his head in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or 3 feet, and Tippit opened the door to get out, and when he got out, Oswald pulled the pistol out and shot him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a lady? The man or the lady that said this?

Mr. CROY. The lady.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did the man who was walking, who saw Oswald walking up the street, tell you?

Mr. CROY. He just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say he saw him arrive at the car?

Mr. CROY. No; I turned him over to some other officers and they talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to determine from them what direction he saw Oswald walking?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall this man's name?

Mr. CROY. No; I found the witness and took him to the other officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. CROY. Home. I went to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, at some restaurant or something?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain home the rest of the day?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to the police department on the----

Mr. CROY. Next day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Next day?

Mr. CROY. I believe it was the next day. No; that was the 22d. Saturday, I didn't go to the police department that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the scene of the Tippit killing, did you inquire there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance?

Mr. CROY. Well, when I left, I asked them if they thought they needed me any longer, and they said, "No," so I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you been interviewed by an FBI agent or any agent of the Federal Government with respect to what you have just told us here?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Dallas Police Department with respect to what you have told us here?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the--how many police officers came out to the scene of the Tippit killing while you were there?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. There was a slew of them. That would be hard to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. There were several officers there that I knew. I don't know their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any officers there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. I am sure there is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know them?

Mr. CROY. The same way I know them, just by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have anything else of value that you know you could contribute to the Commission?

Mr. CROY. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street?

Mr. CROY. I don't recall. I think she lived across the street. She was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street?

Mr. CROY. I believe she did. I am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. She was across the street when it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you stated that she was watering her yard?

Mr. CROY. Or something. She was standing in the yard doing something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? Apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her?

Mr. CROY. I don't remember what she said she was doing. She was doing something in the yard, and I presume that is where she lived was across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where Oswald was apprehended?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or go near there?

Mr. CROY. I went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Oswald been apprehended by the time you got there?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. CROY. They were on their way up there. There had been a report that he had gone into the Texas Theatre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening to your police radio?

Mr. CROY. No. I was standing at the scene, and there had been several reports. One, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, which was in sight of where they were at. And another report, that he had gone into the library over on Jefferson. And they had all, most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where Tippit was killed and gone to the spot.

And as I got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the Texas Theatre, a man fitting Oswald's description had ran into the Texas Theatre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was about the time you got into the automobile?

Mr. CROY. Just as I was fixing to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your police radio on in your car?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you drove over there by the--near the theatre?

Mr. CROY. Well, I drove on up 10th Street. I believe it was 10th Street. On up to Zangs, and when I got to Zangs, took a left, and at the end of Zangs, at the corner of Zangs and Jefferson, it is just a block away, I could see them rushing out to the front and the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do as you saw them rushing out?

Mr. CROY. They had more help than they needed, so I went on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to listen to your police radio?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened?

Mr. CROY. No. I only had channel 1 on my radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far a drive is it from the Texas Theatre to where you live?

Mr. CROY. About 3 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long does it take to drive that distance?

Mr. CROY. About 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see these men rushing into the Texas Theatre from your automobile?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by?

Mr. CROY. There were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove right by the front of the theatre?

Mr. CROY. I drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many cars could you see there?

Mr. CROY. I would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre?

Mr. CROY. It didn't go by either one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which street was that?

Mr. CROY. Zangs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many blocks is it from the theatre?

Mr. CROY. One.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street is the theatre on?

Mr. CROY. Jefferson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street does it back on to?

Mr. CROY. In backs into an alley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the alley?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would you say that Jefferson or the Texas Theatre is from Zangs?

Mr. CROY. I don't know. I would say not a very long block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were driving up Zangs, I take it you were driving away from town?

Mr. CROY. South.

Mr. GRIFFIN. South on Zangs at Jefferson?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue south?

Mr. CROY. I continued south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you proceed to your home from there?

Mr. CROY. Well, I didn't go home. I went to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. CROY. Austin Barbecue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. CROY. On the corner of Hampton and Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get to Hampton and Illinois?

Mr. CROY. From Zangs to Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what direction?

Mr. CROY. West.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that left or right?

Mr. CROY. It is a right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then how far up Illinois to Hampton?

Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a long ways. It is a good stretch. Zangs Place is about the 300 or 400 block and Illinois intersects at about the 2100 or 2200 block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far driving was it from the Texas Theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch?

Mr. CROY. Well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is 3 miles from there, so about 2-1/2 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house?

Mr. CROY. Straight up Illinois, west on Illinois.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is your house on Illinois?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time you arrived at the diner?

Mr. CROY. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there that you knew?

Mr. CROY. My wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an appointment to meet your wife there?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was your appointment?

Mr. CROY. Well, I saw her downtown and I was supposed to have gone right straight over there. I was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and I got detoured down at Tippit, and I was a little bit late, and she was a little mad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her?

Mr. CROY. No; I just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. She was in her car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see her downtown? Where were you and she when you saw each other?

Mr. CROY. At the courthouse. She pulled up beside me. I asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "No," and here she comes and I said, "Do you want to get something to eat?" And she said, "Yes."

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said you would be right there?

Mr. CROY. I was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? Did you hear something? How did you happen to get over to Tippit's place on the way home?

Mr. CROY. I was on the corner of Zangs and Colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad's house? Did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time?

Mr. CROY. Yes. I did for about that 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that you had dinner?

Mr. CROY. It is quite a ways. It is about 3 or 4 miles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to your mother's and dad's house?

Mr. CROY. Straight out north on Hampton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. North on Hampton?

Mr. CROY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time?

Mr. CROY. I slept there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also?

Mr. CROY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her?

Mr. CROY. No.

(To reporter: Don't put that in there.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time?

Mr. CROY. At that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you think that you could tell as a result of your experiences on the 22d, 23d, or 24th, or any other time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, or the murder of Jack Ruby.

Mr. CROY. You mean Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CROY. None that I know of. That is as well as I can remember it of what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF WILBUR JAY CUTCHSHAW

The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw.

I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the President.

We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that the events that have transpired over the last few months will not be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in Government and the national security.

In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are particularly central in terms of having information that would be useful.

As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of Oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may have that would bear upon the entire picture.

You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission. Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you prefer to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I will waive that notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will certainly----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. May 27, 1923.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Police officer, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. A little over 9 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any particular rank in the department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Detective.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 2-1/2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you the time before that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I worked downtown there for about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I had seen him one time before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the Carousel on Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I went up in his place one night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before he shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That's been about 2-1/2 years ago, the first time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes, purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2, 1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit 5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit 5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview reports and a copy of your letter?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in those documents?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that right?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you recall who was on duty?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk, and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and, oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall when it was that you first had any information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly what time, I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up about 9 o'clock?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe.

They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you say that to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as possible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call over at the cafe?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it up in the book what the number was over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or Goolsby made it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where it was you called?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe Diner, right across from the library on Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is what we call the "greasy spoon."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their testimony before the Commission?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty yesterday?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What duty hours are you working now?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are your days off?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and Miller coming back from the diner?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go down to the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11, or 20 minutes after, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what happened?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which was the police officers and the news media.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when Oswald came down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get too close to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit No. 5046.]

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside the jail, and I was right here at this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was standing right here by the side of the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; until after the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that particular time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the officers here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is behind the desk?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did anybody help you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and he came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where those people went?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The door where you stationed yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into this area here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Came behind the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail office window.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one went in and came out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was right about in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind these offices along that rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV cameras?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and write TV. Make it big enough.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. [Complies.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there any other TV cameras in the basement, that you recall?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not right at first, but another one did come in through the door and went down to this position here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark this spot that it went to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The last position I saw it in was about in here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald came down did that TV camera come out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have marked in the entrance to the garage?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Oh, about 2 or 3 minutes. Just prior to when they were coming down. It is when they were coming down. It is when they came through the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time while you were down there, was there a TV camera along the wall that Lowery was on?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This one right here that came through here, and Lowery was standing right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put an "L" where Lowery was.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And they came through right down by him, down this ramp here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever a TV camera stationed there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if the TV camera which you saw go out into the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the jail office elevators?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't see them come down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He came through the double doors here, and the service elevator, public elevators over here. They came through here. As far as where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office before or after this TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the TV camera came down, where did you station yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was right back in this door, the same place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Still there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you look out towards the TV cameras from time to time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yeah.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the TV cameras?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Mostly saw lights. I mostly saw lights were shining in my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of officers and news media.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know when they were trying to back it down, but it couldn't get through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember Chief Batchelor being up there by the armored car?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see the armored car from where I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in this position that you have marked with an "X" after the TV camera came through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean how long did I stay there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Until after the officers and Lee Oswald came through. Then I stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when the shot rang out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the officers here in this area along the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think there was one standing right here, and one right here. But just who they were, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of them up further across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember seeing any. I know there was a line of men along there, and who they were, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From where you were standing, you could see the TV camera going in that direction, couldn't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I saw the TV camera over here; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see from where you were standing any people in front of that TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember except there were people right in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate where you saw people congregating over in the area of the entrance to the garage?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I think there were some--I will put a couple of "X's"--I think there were some along there, and there were people right along here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you able to see how many lines of people there were along across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Rio Pierce, the same Pierce car go up the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it break through the line of newsmen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Did I see a car break through the line?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, I know the car did go up, because I don't know how many people----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you lose sight of that car?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When it went up past this line here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On November 24, the day that Oswald was shot, you prepared a letter to Chief Curry, and you were also interviewed by Agent Bookhout. Do you remember those two things?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether you prepared your letter to Curry before or after you were interviewed by Bookhout?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after the shooting, did you go back into the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You followed Ruby and Oswald back in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I helped carry--I had hold of Ruby's left hand up as far as the jail office door. And all of us couldn't get through at the same time, so I released, because there was another man right in front at his shoulder, so I let go so they could get in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think I was, because I was there at the door keeping other people out--after I got in. Let me put it like this: After we got Ruby on the inside, I slammed the door, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you left the jail office?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Ruby shot Oswald would you say that was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine it was only a couple of minutes. Just a very short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I notified this TV camera officer here with two men, I went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up this ramp by theirselves, and I do remember seeing three men with that camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to push it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what TV camera that was? What station?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Channel 5 on the camera box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned that it was a Dallas channel 5?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I think so, that channel 5. I believe it is a Fort Worth station. It is one of them, got two of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What channel is channel 5? What station?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that is a Fort Worth station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are the call letters on that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it in your statement anywhere?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know. I don't think I know the call letters. Just channel 5 is the only thing I saw on the box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men were over at the camera at that time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I was standing at the door, I had it closed, and I looked out and I saw the camera here with only two men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go over to the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember three men being with the camera in this area here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have reason to think one of them might be Ruby?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't at the time, because I figured if there were three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get it up the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see get it up the ramp?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you detain those men?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody assist?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Officer Lowery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Not at the time, because we finally got Lieutenant Swain over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and Lowery had them, or Swain talked to them, we got their names where we would be able to ask information of them later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the TV cameras? Was it Lowery or was he there when you came up?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later did Lowery come up?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got over there and this one, I don't know what the names are, I think this one that had the coat on was Alexander, as well as I can remember. He was kind of nervous and shaky. So, then I called Lowery to help me out, because I didn't know whether they might be involved or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where Lowery was standing when you called him over?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he was right over in this area. I am not too sure, but I think he was, because I could see him from here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The point you are talking about is in front of the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Between the double doors and the driveway close to, I call that the north wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Lowery arrived, was Lieutenant Swain there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much longer would you say after Lowery arrived did Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the process after I got Lowery over there and we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get around, and they finally got Swain, and I think it was maybe 5 or 6 minutes after Lowery got there, and they got Lieutenant Swain to come over and talk to them. Not to talk, but for us to have a conference as to what to do about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you talk with Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I imagine it was about 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Lowery turn the two TV men over to Lieutenant Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. When I got the names and everything, Lowery started getting their names and I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lowery take the names down in a notebook?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He took the names and he turned them over to the homicide office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left, and where did you go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I came back upstairs to my office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Room 314.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I waited up there until further information.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you wait?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Man, I don't know. We was up there for quite a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you eventually go out to Love Field?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you went out to Love Field, did you prepare a report of what had happened down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; that is where I went, I am sorry. I am getting confused, but when I left the basement, I talked to somebody downstairs about it, and I think that was Captain Jones, and he said, "Well, go upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you saw." And I went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office up there, and then I went to my room, which is room 314.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated--let me ask you this: Let me hand you Exhibit 5043. Is that a true and accurate copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let me take a minute here [reading report]. You mean word for word?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: I notice you pulled out a set of papers from your pocket. You have a copy of the actual report you prepared?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I have a copy which is one of the Xerox copies of the report which I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? And retain it for our files?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't. In fact, it looks like--that is my handwritten copy. I don't know whether you can read it or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think I can make out your handwriting here. I am referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which Detective Crenshaw prepared on November 24, 1963, in the homicide bureau office. Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been longer than that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. It could have been longer, but it was approximately 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as long as 2 hours later?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was that long. It might have been the way things were, but I remember when I left the basement, I did go upstairs, and I did go to the homicide office and that is where I wrote the report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement told you to go up and write a report on what you saw?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones. I know he told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. And there was a standing order to put it down in writing what you saw and what you did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after everything had been quieted down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; well, now, I am losing track of my time again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is important that we try to straighten this out.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Let's see. I will have to retract some of them. I don't want to state it that way. But so far as what I have said, it is true, but as far as my time element is concerned, when I left, I had to go up to the first floor, and I kept seeing people coming in and out.

We have three entrances. The Harwood, Main and Commerce, and I think there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and leaving, and checking their identification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which entrance was it you were at?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was checking the Commerce side. I was inside the building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in and leaving the Commerce Street entrance to the building. So it might have been about 2 hours after, because I know I was down there for quite awhile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were at the Commerce Street side, were you at the door going out of the building?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was in the hallway close to the entrance of the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you said before, closer to the information desk?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Closer to the information where the hallway is in front of the desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the first floor and not in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right. It is on the first floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was up there with you taking names?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lowery there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harrison there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't think he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody from the juvenile bureau there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was the only one from the juvenile. There was about four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the Harwood side there, checking those, and one on the other side of the desk checking those coming from the Main Street, and I was on Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; not that I can remember. You mean what I saw down in the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the camera.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you taken off that duty by anybody?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Lieutenant came down and told us it was all right to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when I left and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the instructions to write a report on this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you got stationed?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Before I had to go upstairs: yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time Captain Jones gave you those instructions down there, had the basement sort of quieted down?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think there were two or three of us there, and I asked about it, and told him, and he said, "The information is good," but he said, "Put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there at the time?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember who all was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come through that you wrote this report? And when I say on the basis of what you said, I don't mean that I want you to conform to anything you have said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what is your best judgment as to how long it was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About an hour and a half or 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you took the names of the two men you found at the camera----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't take the names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery took those names?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were those two men dressed?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. One of them had on a long black coat. One of these kind of, like a raincoat--topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best I can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had those two men, as you recall, where had they been on the camera as it was being pushed through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean where? How were they positioned there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the man in the black coat?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The man in the black coat was on the left side of the camera, and the other one was on the right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was one man in between?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as I can remember, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss that man with those people that you and Lowery confronted?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the two men at the camera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask them where the third man was?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked them where the third man was who had helped them with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third man there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask those men where that camera had been before it came through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you subsequently learned where it was before it came through the double doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. I heard it had been up on the third floor, and that they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they were wanting to get a shot taking Oswald up the ramp to the armored car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn the names of the two men that you talked with out at that camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I have not since then, no. At the time, I thought one was named John Alexander, but I don't know what their names are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you recall if Lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third man on the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, when I called him over there, I told him what I had, and he said, "Yes, he remembered a third man being with them."

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Lowery came over at your beckoning?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery did not come over spontaneously?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived up in the homicide office to write your report, who was there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lowery was there, and there was some officers from the homicide bureau there, and Captain Fritz was in his office, and I think there was a Secret Service man there with him. I don't know what his name was. I was told it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know L. D. Montgomery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean the detective?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't recall whether he was or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Blackie Harrison there when you arrived?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he was there in the office. I believe he was in there, and there was Lieutenant Wallace. I just don't remember who else was there. I know the place was full.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was there? Let me ask you--I want to ask you here to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest opinion on this.

You have had a chance to talk with many police officers, I presume, about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors that there have been about the man walking down the Main Street ramp and so forth and so on.

Do you still feel--can you tell me whether or not you still have a belief that Jack Ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera in, in your own mind?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in my own mind, I can tell you this: I did see the third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two men--there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the camera, and that is the reason I went out and contacted the two men.

Let me tell you, I did learn from Lieutenant Wallace--that is one of the investigators on the thing for the city--one of you might have talked with him--that you contacted the crews on this camera--and he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at about--see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where Lowery was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a decline where Lowery was standing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the time that that camera was being pushed, a man came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. If there is where I got the three men, but I do remember seeing three men on that camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man crew?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Off one of these cameras here. Channel 5 already had one camera down here, but they said--that is where I got the reason for this--they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the armored car was. But still I did see three men pushing that camera through here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's put this on the record. Now, as I understand the story that you heard was that a man came from the two TV cameras, from the channel 5 camera that was already stationed behind a railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And came off and assisted two other men who had already been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the camera at approximately when that camera was near Lowery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is what I was told, what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that were true, do you think as you look at--out in the area toward where Lowery and that camera would have been at that point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If I had been looking there at that time, I could have; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what I am getting at is, the area that was in front of those two stationery TV cameras was clear, wasn't it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. And they had lights up here shining in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera came this route here through these swinging doors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see it come through the swinging doors?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I saw it coming through the swinging doors because these doors came open and they come through, and I was standing right here. I wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but I was in the doorway at the time.

I held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera came right on down here and was parked in this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through the swinging doors where Lowery was stationed and over to the point that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage entrance?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is where I saw it; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have also been told that this same channel 5 had some other new camera behind the railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. I know that right after the camera came through, that these men down here started hollering to everyone to clear back. Evidently some were standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to clear them out.

So far as I remember, most of the people were standing here, and in front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this guy you say had on a dark suit?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if he had on a hat?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do not, because the man I saw was bent over pushing like that [indicating]. All three is what struck me strange that all three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were bent over pushing like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you ran for those TV cameras after the shooting, did you know that Jack Ruby had been the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that. I helped carry the man through the jail office doors to the jail office, and while I was there standing guard on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is Jack Ruby. And I was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we got Ruby in there and they brought Oswald, and immediately thereafter, someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and I tried to push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. And I run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right hand coat pocket, and I let him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, by the time you ran to the TV cameras, you knew that Ruby was the man?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I knew that Ruby was the man. They said he was Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as it reached Lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from the TV cameras to the channel 5 camera that was stationed behind the railing? Do you think you would have seen him move from there to the position of the camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me put it this way: I didn't just watch this camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the next time I saw it, I remember seeing it when I was looking through the square glass in the door when I was holding it to, and I saw the two men push it up here.

So, I don't know whether I was looking at the camera at the time I was down here, but I didn't see anyone go around to the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that the TV camera came through the door, the double doors, you were looking through another glass?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; now at the time it came through the door, this door was being opened from the inside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This single door that entered into the jail office opened inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; they came through the swinging door. I was standing in the doorway and I held this door open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You held open the swinging doors for them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; when they came through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You pulled it back toward yourself?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They were already going past, and I grabbed ahold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the swinging doors were between you, your face and them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I was standing at the edge of this swinging door holding it back for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you were behind the swinging doors when you were holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing on part of that door which was between you and them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would you say you were from those men at that point?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 3 feet. Maybe 2, or I could have reached out and put my hand on one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see the faces of those men?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you ultimately met over there, you confronted those men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man that turned up and looked at you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind about that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I remember his nose real good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just turned loose of it. There was another officer that closed right in behind them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were other officers that closed in behind the TV cameramen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those officers go?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just stood there. There were some standing in front of the door at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't follow them through the door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No. They were already stationed there, and then when they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers just moved aside.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any activity back here in that hallway immediately after you let go of that swinging door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, just a little, maybe a minute or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Later?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not immediately thereafter? Do you have any recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, right after, right after this, the doors came to here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one I told you previously where one came into the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A newspaperman? A newspaper person?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stepped away from this area where you have the "N" marked?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he walk to?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for somebody to come out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your attention was attracted to him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you actually see that man move away?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. Who moved away from right here and stepped about half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Have you watched the movies of all this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I just seen it one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Are you able to state whether what you are telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with anything you may have seen in the movies?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember when he stepped out, I made him get back, and I told him to get back up against the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were looking in his direction when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and then you had to look at him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I was looking in the hallway in this area here when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say in this area here. You mean you were looking in the direction of Lowery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes, in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She can't write that. I am going to have to explain for the record.

Were you looking in the direction of Lowery, or in the direction of the railing?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, in the direction of the TV camera which was being pushed out at this time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody in, and you pushed him back?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I told him to get back up against the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you believe that if somebody had walked out from the channel 5 camera that was already in place behind the railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him get in position and help push that other camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is kind of hard to say, because when I looked out here and he stepped out there, and I told him to get back, I don't know whether I would notice anybody at that camera, because my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the hallway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. However, whatever struck your attention to the general placement of the people in front of those TV cameras, do you recall whether there were people in front of the TV cameras at any time before you saw this other TV camera come out of the hallway?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Whether they were exactly in front of the TV cameras, I don't know, but I know there was lots of people along this north wall and in the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not indicating anything that is directly in front of the TV camera?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, shortly after this camera came through, someone hollered, "Here they come," or else I think I forget, or "They are on their way down"--we have lights on the basement showing where the elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the cameras--to get out from in front of the cameras--but as far as me telling how many people were in front of the cameras, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever talked to Lowery about whether he saw some man come from the channel 5 stationary camera and help push the moving camera into that space?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, Lowery and I were talking when Lieutenant Wallace told us--he said, if I remember right, Wallace, he says, "I believe I think I found out where you got the third man." And we asked him where, and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other channel 5 camera that was already in the basement and helped them down this short incline, because the camera was rocking.

And I said, "I don't remember anybody, but I do remember seeing three men on the camera." And, Lowery said the same thing, that he did remember seeing the three men. But I don't remember anybody coming from here to the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go ahead now, sir. When you were up there filling out your report in the homicide office--when you talked with these men that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you asked them where is the third man and he said there wasn't, what did they say?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They just told me that there wasn't any, that if there was a third man there, they didn't know about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else standing with you at the time they said that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe Officer Lowery was there at that time. But the first thing, I went right out there and got a hold of both of them and asked them, "Where is the other man that came out with them." And he said, "There wasn't any other man." And I said, "I know there were three men with you when you came out." And he said, "If there was one between us, they don't know nothing about it." And I don't remember whether Officer Lowery was there, but I don't think he was there, but we did question them again, and I still think there was a third man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Swain, did he make that denial to Swain?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't really know, because that is when I left and had to go up to the first floor. Lowery started getting their names and they talked to Lieutenant Swain and told them what it was, and he said, "Go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it that came up to you and told you that he had found out, had an explanation for the third man.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Lieutenant Wallace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Sunday, November 24?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down there. It was quite some time. The exact amount of days, I don't know, but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up to the homicide office, did Lowery fill out a report?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Harrison fill out a report while you were out there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you all talk about this when you were up there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; I believe we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were all--as a matter of fact, this was probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you imagine?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think anybody could have been in that office without knowing what you guys had seen?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so, because we don't tell everybody up there in the office. Of course, at the time we wrote out a report, I think there was me, Lowery, and I believe Harrison did come back and start writing out his, and I think Lieutenant Wallace, and he said put down what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way I wrote out my report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so anybody other than you and Lowery who might have been there could have heard it and might have told it to somebody else?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Possibly; yes. But we didn't talk a whole lot while we were writing the report. We just sat down and wrote it out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about after you wrote the report?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes. We went back to our office and shot the bull and gabbed about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And speculated about it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did other people come in there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about other members of the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Goolsby there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; he was out there quite a bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody else who was in that office after you had written out your report and were talking about this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. There was a reporter up there. You mean so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give me just the officers first.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe June McLine, and then I believe that covered all the officers and myself and Harrison and Miller, and Goolsby, and McLine, and then there were other officers, I know, but I don't know who all they were. I don't remember. And they had that one little reporter from up north somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Yankee reporters?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Like Cleveland, Ohio, maybe?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't know where he was from, but I didn't like him very much. Then there was a French reporter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A French reporter was up there?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter when you were down in the basement?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think so. I'm not going to swear, because there were so darn many of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen that French reporter there before this?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; because he and some other reporters from up North, they kind of made our office their office, you might say. That was their base of operation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that French reporter tell you? Did he see that TV camera come through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I didn't talk to him about it or ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the people who were up there in the office indicate they had also seen the TV camera come through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think Goolsby said he saw the camera come through but he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you view the TV film with these men coming through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your recollection of that TV film, could you see the third man on the camera pushing it through?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; the only two I could see was just the two that I gave a description. It was one on the right that had, I think, the greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember that TV film. Did that TV film which you saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did it show the man looking up at you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the camera shot taken from such a position that if there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up on the TV picture?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, I didn't see any other man. If he had been there, he would be directly behind the stand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how far that TV picture of the men coming out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the swinging doors? Out past Lowery? Does it show Lowery up on the TV?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether it does or not, because at the time I saw the film, I was just looking at the camera to see whether I could see anybody behind it or not. The way the picture was on the film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range of the TV camera that was taking the pictures at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how soon after Oswald was shot did you view those TV films?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Lieutenant Wallace reported to you that he could solve the problem of the third man?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe it was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the film after you talked to Wallace?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in looking at those TV films whether you show up in the TV film?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On one of the films I do, but whether it was on the TV or one of the camera pictures, I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether those films show you looking at the men?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Like I say, I don't even remember seeing them. You know, one showed me, but I think I was looking almost straight out at an angle from the door where I was standing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In any other films which you have seen, is there depicted the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have marked with an "N" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the jail office and the ramp? Does it show that man coming out and your motioning him back as you have described?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you these questions because I am trying to get you to refresh your recollection even more.

Now, Detective Cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after Ruby shot Oswald, a certain amount of heat was focused on Blackie Harrison. You are aware of that, aren't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want you to tell me honestly--I think you have tried to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera.

Do you think that your concern about Harrison in any way has affected what you remembered about this event?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't Harrison indicate shortly after this event that he was worried about this, because Ruby had come right past him?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't remember whether he talked about it; he just said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about it, I don't remember that. As far as any reflection on himself----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was not trying to talk particularly about whether Blackie saw Jack there a few minutes ago. Honestly, I don't care to know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. But it is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was somebody else involved here.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let me tell you: I came down here. A lot of people say I need a lawyer, but I don't want one because I came down to tell you the truth and just the way I saw it. I told you what I saw. Of course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but I said what I saw, and the only thing I did tell you----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, is in this, and I don't expect you to tell me that Blackie thought that he saw the man or anybody else, but I want to know if you feel that what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about Harrison and Lowery and Miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in particular to have seen Ruby if he came in?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe that if Blackie Harrison had seen Ruby come in, he would have put him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, to what extent, I want to know, do you think that this concern of your affects your story, honestly?

I could tell this story and honestly believe everything I am telling, but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected.

How much are you being affected by that concern of Harrison?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. None of my story or anything I have told you has been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the department.

I came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way I saw it. And as far as concern for any one individual, I don't have any.

Now, Blackie is a friend of mine, and I have known him for a long time. I have no concern for him, because I don't think he did anything wrong. And I think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did the wrong thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you think he would have been disciplined for that, too, don't you?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that if Blackie knew that he wouldn't be disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned out Blackie did see this guy, do you think Blackie would tell us about that?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe he would. Blackie is an honest man. In fact, the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, I believe he would tell you he had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard the story that Blackie had taken some sort of medicine before he took that lie detector test?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't heard that story?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are concerned, I take it, about the department, though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the department, but you are concerned about the department?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. As far as doing anything wrong?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you act----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. The way you are talking is that I am concerned that I think we have done something wrong. I don't think there is one wrongdoing, as far as the officers are concerned and what happened down there. I didn't think like that.

Departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of what should have happened and what shouldn't have happened.

One way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught the dickens that way.

And, as I heard, Chief Curry had the okay from a little higher up to go ahead and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good.

But as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened as far as our department is concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lowery? Are you much of a friend with Lowery?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We ride to work together and run around a bit together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How friendly are you with Harrison?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We are good friends, but as far as running around, he lives way over in Pleasant Grove, and I live in Grand Prairie. It is way across town, so we don't get around together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery had seen Ruby. Did Lowery know Ruby?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Did he recognize Ruby before?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had seen Ruby on a number of occasions, actually, didn't he before?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. You mean before this happened?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I tell you the truth, I really don't know. I think he said he knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing there, I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain King in the basement at any time prior to the shooting?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, that I don't remember whether I saw him down there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. There was a whole bunch of officers down there, and, man, I do remember a few immediately right there, and someone that came out the door, because I was right there and watched them as they came out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, if you and Captain King had been standing together and you both saw Ruby and you both knew Ruby, what would you do?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the basement, or if we saw him standing there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saw him standing down there and you were both standing there together?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, honestly, because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went down there.

In other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was supposed to be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and me not knowing Ruby, I probably wouldn't have known him if I had been shown him on the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew Ruby and you both were standing there, if you knew him and you and Captain King were standing there, and you knew Captain King was looking at him too----

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have tried to find out what he was doing, knowing he wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have deferred to Captain King or any other superior officer? Would you let him take the initiative on it?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have asked him myself if I had seen him, because that is what we were down there for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at, and the only reason I use Captain King--I could have used Chief Batchelor or anybody like that, but my point is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer were standing together, is there any feeling that you would defer to the senior officer to take the initiative in throwing some guy out?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. If he were in charge of me or in charge of security and if I saw Jack Ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and I knew him and knew that he was not a news representative, then if I confronted him and he said, "Chief Batchelor said it was okay," then I would have asked the chief if it was all right.

Otherwise, I wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and I would put him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, if you had seen him first, you would have gone directly to him and then turned to your superior officer and said what shall I do about this guy?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would have went directly to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have gone directly to him. Do you think that is true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted different?

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. Some operate one way and some operate another.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to examine Cutchshaw Exhibits Nos. 5042, 5043, 5044, 5045, and 5046, and if there are no further additions or corrections to make to those in addition to all this we have been talking about, then I would like you to sign each one of these and date them.

Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Where do you want me to sign?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in a conspicuous place where I have placed the mark on the paper. Sign your name and date it. Regular signature or full name.

TESTIMONY OF NAPOLEON J. DANIELS

The testimony of Napoleon J. Daniels was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. My name is Leon Hubert, Mr. Daniels. I'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Daniels.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of course, about the entry of Jack Ruby into the basement of the police department.

Now, Mr. Daniels, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a written request sent to you by mail.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin.

Mr. DANIELS. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. General Counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I received it Saturday, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that this is Thursday.

Mr. DANIELS. It has been 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DANIELS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name?

Mr. DANIELS. Napoleon J. Daniels.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. DANIELS. Thirty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Mr. DANIELS. 2229 Sutter [spelling] S-u-t-t-e-r.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Daniels?

Mr. DANIELS. Real estate broker.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. DANIELS. About 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you own your own company?

Mr. DANIELS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at one time connected with the police department, were you not?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; about 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. About 7 years?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department?

Mr. DANIELS. I left there in November 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. What were the circumstances under which you left?

Mr. DANIELS. Let me see just how I can put this--well, I resigned, of course, I was asked to resign because of some conflicts I had with a tenant living in one of my apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant and you had some difficulty with the tenant?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign from the police department?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did resign?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And have you continued in the business under the name N. J. Daniels Real Estate Co.?

Mr. DANIELS. That's right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?

Mr. DANIELS. No; just a company.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I know you have already made a statement to the FBI, as a matter of fact, I think you have made two statements, one to the State police--I would now just like for you to tell us what you know of entry of Jack Ruby into the basement?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, actually, I don't feel like I really know anything, but I saw a guy go in the basement, but I don't think it was Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that the President had been killed?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand, you were riding in your own car over towards the place where he was killed?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, I was going out Main Street. I was going--let's see, that was Sunday morning and I was going down Main Street to look at the spot where the President had been assassinated and as I drove by the city hall, I noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this officer standing in the entrance to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. On Main Street?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; on Main Street, and so I made the block and turned around and came back and parked.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park?

Mr. DANIELS. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park?

Mr. DANIELS. On Main there, right down from the city hall there, I guess about a half a block down.

Mr. HUBERT. On the other side of the street?

Mr. DANIELS. On the same side of the city hall, you see, I went around and came back.

Mr. HUBERT. You went around what street?

Mr. DANIELS. Now, that first street down, I guess that's--I was going down Main and turned, I believe the first block.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that have been Pearl?

Mr. DANIELS. No; you see, I was going west on Main and the first street I could turn--I think the first street is a one way going left, but I turned and came back the other way, so it must have been Ervay where I turned and went up to Pacific and then come back up to Harwood and then came down Harwood to Main and made a left on Main and parked up in a vacant space on the other side of the city hall--on the east side of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you had parked at a parking lot near the Western Union office?

Mr. DANIELS. No; it wasn't a parking lot. I was thinking I parked on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You parked on the street?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it near the Western Union office?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; right down from the city hall. In other words, it was in between there and the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were parked on Main Street?

Mr. DANIELS. On the south side of Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Not in a parking lot?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I wasn't at a parking lot, no, I think I parked on the street, I'm sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you parked on the same side of the street as the city hall and as the police department is and as the Western Union office is?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you parked at a spot between the Western Union office and the Main Street entrance of the city hall?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Or the police department?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with that building, because you worked there for a long time?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you were about half way between the Western Union and the Main ramp, or just what distance between those two?

Mr. DANIELS. Oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind--I would say I was a little nearer the Western Union Building than I was to the entrance of the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that alley that goes from Main Street back in towards Commerce and makes an "L" and comes out on Pearl Street?

Mr. DANIELS. I think I was just on the east side of that.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me.

Mr. DANIELS. Near Pearl.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were on the Western Union side of the alley?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And your car was facing towards the Western Union?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about what time was it when you got there?

Mr. DANIELS. Near 11 o'clock--I wasn't paying much attention to the time, it must have been near 11 o'clock or a little after.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, I'm trying to fix it at about the time Oswald was shot. Now, I was there about 20 or 25 or 30 minutes before it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. When you parked your car, did you sit in your car any length of time at all?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I got out and walked back up there.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the Main door--the Main door entrance?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to show you a drawing, which among other things includes the entrance to the basement, and I am marking it for the purpose of identification as follows:

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5324, Deposition of N. J. Daniels," and I am marking it with my name.

I would like you to study this, and I point out to you that this is Main Street, here is the Western Union office, and here is Pearl.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over in that direction would be Harwood, Commerce is over here.

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the Main Street entrance?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The sidewalk.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you are familiar with the fact that there is a stone fence about 2 feet high that runs from the entrance of Main Street toward the street some distance.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, you were parked on Main Street itself?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Facing towards the Western Union Building?

Mr. DANIELS. This side of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. On the same side of the street as the Western Union Building?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you reached there at approximately 11 o'clock?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; at approximately 11 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You immediately got out of your car and you walked toward the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did you stay on the Western Union side of the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. I think when I first got there, I walked over in front of the little entrance down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. So you could look right down the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. So I could look in there, because I was on the sidewalk when I did that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer Vaughn?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You had known him from the time you were on the police force?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize you?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the sidewalk and looked down the sidewalk?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay there very long?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking anybody's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was blocking anybody's entrance into the basement. That's what he was there for.

Mr. HUBERT. He was posted at that spot--where was he standing?

Mr. DANIELS. He was standing right in the middle of the entrance there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark on Exhibit 5324 a position which I am going to call "1" and I am putting a circle on it and I'm going to draw a line, and then I'm going to put "First position of Daniels," is that about correct?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes, that's about correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'm going to mark a position called "2" and I'm going to draw a line, and I'm going to mark it "position of Vaughn when Daniels was in position number "1", and ask you if that is correct?

Mr. DANIELS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you looked down?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?

Mr. DANIELS. I stepped back over to the bannister and----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean back towards the Western Union?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go on the other side of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Towards Harwood?

Mr. DANIELS. No--at no time--I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went towards the bannister, were you on the inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and the ramp, or on the Western Union side of it?

Mr. DANIELS. You mean after I got back to it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; I got--I went back to it and stood on the Western Union side and just propped my foot up on the end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. You were then facing toward Harwood Street?

Mr. DANIELS. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. More or less?

Mr. DANIELS. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you move out of that position at all?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; during the time I was there I moved several times, but it was all right around in that area there.

Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever go to the Harwood Street side of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it straight--if I draw an area like so--would it be fair to say that you were at all times that you are going to testify to later, within that area, except when you left?

Mr. DANIELS. Now, what is this here--is this the bannister here?

Mr. HUBERT. No; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show the bannister.

Mr. DANIELS. The bannister come right around in here--I was always right in this area right in here.

Mr. HUBERT. So, we will draw a circle like that.

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am drawing a larger circle in which I am putting the number "3", drawing a line out and saying "Area in which Daniels was after he left position '1' and until shooting." Right?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand, of course, that you might have moved around in that area, but substantially that's what it was?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on the Western Union side of the little concrete or marble ramp that comes out?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me that you never did go on the Harwood Street side thereafter?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in the area you were in--this area that we have marked No. 3?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, now, at different times there was as high as four or five--some of them would come by and stop and then go on.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Even though there were some people on the other side of the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; there was three or four on the other side.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot, and I think you did hear the shot?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before Oswald was shot did you get to position No. 1?

Mr. DANIELS. I would say 20 or 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then, how long were you in position No. 3 before he was shot, in the area of No. 3?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, let me see--almost the same, because I had just came over here and looked and immediately walked back over here--I would say no time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you came from your car to position 1 and took a quick look and went to the area of No. 3?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you think it was about 20 minutes later?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a car coming up the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Lt. Rio Pierce?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him driving the car?

Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were four officers in there and he was the only one I recognized right off.

Mr. HUBERT. There were four in there you say?

Mr. DANIELS. Two in the front and two in the back.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the others?

Mr. DANIELS. I didn't really get a good look at them but I knew him, but I got a better look at him than I did the rest of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he see you--did he show any signs of recognition to you?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the shooting did that occur?

Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, I would say 3 or 4 minutes. Now, I have been thoroughly confused on this because down at the police department they tell me one thing and it gets my mind all confused.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but what you, yourself can best remember today.

Mr. DANIELS. Here's what struck me--when I saw the car come out, I was thinking--I guess they are fixing to bring Oswald out now, maybe, because they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out and I remember watching the car until they got to Harwood and Main, and then I stopped looking at it and I didn't pay any attention to where it went or anything, and then I kind of looked back down in there from where I was standing near the ramp there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the car came out, what did Vaughn do?

Mr. DANIELS. Vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, because they were coming out the wrong way. They don't normally come out that way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get through.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out in the street?

Mr. DANIELS. I think he walked out in the street.

Mr. HUBERT. How far into the street?

Mr. DANIELS. That would be hard to say but I wasn't paying that much attention, but he walked out into the street--he didn't get beyond the center of the street, but he walked out in there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he left position No. 2 and went to a position we will call No. 4 by a circle, and I will just write in there "approximate position of Vaughn when Rio Pierce's car drove out," and when I say "approximate," I am understanding you to say that you are not sure how far into the street he went, you know he did not go beyond the center stripe, but you think he went----

Mr. DANIELS. Almost----

Mr. HUBERT. Out over the sidewalk and into the street?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get beyond them, you see.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were watching the car and Vaughn, I think you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. Did you see anybody go down the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. No, no; I didn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to your left and down the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. You mean have gotten between me and there?

Mr. HUBERT. And the building--yes.

Mr. DANIELS. Not without me seeing them--I don't hardly think so.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, they would have to climb over the little marble----

Mr. DANIELS. Well, I was not exactly against it at that time. When the car came out, I think I stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved out of the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said that at one point you were standing on the Western Union side of that concrete--what do you call it?

Mr. DANIELS. I call it a ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Concrete ramp--sticking out in the sidewalk?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had your foot on it?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; because I was in and out of that position, but when the car came out, I left that and I stepped back out here a little piece from the----

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you left the area 3 and went more towards the street?

Mr. DANIELS. I went towards the street and kind of back down the sidewalk a little piece.

Mr. HUBERT. You went more towards the Main Street curb and back in the direction of the Western Union?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see anybody go down the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, after Vaughn had done this and the car had gone around, what did Vaughn do?

Mr. DANIELS. He came back and took his position up again.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it is fair to say then that the position we have marked on the map as position 2 was also the position of Vaughn after the Rio Pierce automobile had gone through?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened after that?

Mr. DANIELS. Let's see, there is something else that I have been thoroughly confused on--I have never been able to picture in my mind just how it happened--the guy that I saw go into the basement--I'm not sure it was before or after the car came out. I'm not sure--I have run that in my mind a thousand times, but I just can't place one before the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where was Vaughn?

Mr. DANIELS. In position 2.

Mr. HUBERT. In position 2, that is to say, squarely in the middle of the ramp?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn look at him?

Mr. DANIELS. I think he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Vaughn try to stop him?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He went right on through?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long that was before the shot was fired?

Mr. DANIELS. 3 or 4 minutes, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not that was after the Rio Pierce car came out?

Mr. DANIELS. I'm not sure--I can't place one before the other--if I had to guess at it, I would say it was before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think now that you saw the man go down past Vaughn before the Rio Pierce car came?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. DANIELS. That's what I'm thinking.

Mr. HUBERT. That's your best recollection today?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when the Rio Pierce car did drive out and Vaughn left his position at No. 2, didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to watch that position which was left unguarded?

Mr. DANIELS. I did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so I could tell him about it.

Mr. HUBERT. And nobody did?

Mr. DANIELS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not the man you saw go down, went down before or after the Pierce car came out?

Mr. DANIELS. Let me see--I still think it was before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that now?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't be positive--I don't know it.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man you had seen somehow when you were on the police force?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, yes; and here's what--when the guy walked down in there and Vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression I got was that Vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, I wondered too why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody else go down in there. He looked like one of the news reporters or something, at least that's what I took him to be after Vaughn let him go on down. I had seen him before and I thought, well, maybe he's one of the news reporters down there at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to do this, Mr. Daniels, I have here three documents. The first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the State police, I think, or the city police, in the course of which you executed an affidavit on November 29, 1963.

I'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows:

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5325, deposition of N. J. Daniels," and I am signing my name below it. There are two pages. I am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. Then there's another document which purports to be a report of an interview with the FBI Agents Neil Quigley and John Dallman, which interview occurred on December 4, 1964. That document has four pages. I am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following:

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, Exhibit No. 5326, Deposition of N. J. Daniels." I am writing my name below that and marking the second and third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and finally, there is another document which is an FBI report of an interview with Bramblett [spelling] B-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and Dallman, taken of you on December 18, 1963, and I am marking that:

"Dallas, Tex., April 16, 1964, this is Exhibit 5327, Deposition of N. J. Daniels."

I am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three pages, I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages.

Now, Mr. Daniels, I would like you to read these three documents with this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and quietly, take all the time you want, I would like you to look at them and be able to comment upon them.

For instance, I am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is wrong about them, and I want to try to reconcile them, and see if we can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. We are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to, with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now--today, without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it.

Keep that in mind--forget about suggestions made to you in all good faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's just do that--that scene as you saw it, and these words today.

Mr. DANIELS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to give you some time to look at it.

Mr. DANIELS. [Examining instruments referred to.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the exhibits that I have marked Exhibits Nos. 5325, 5326, and 5327. Now, have you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the statements made by you in them?

Mr. DANIELS. They said three people was in the car--it seems like I saw four--all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats that the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like I saw four.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what you are saying in effect now is that the people who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were wrong, or that you were wrong in telling them three, because your present recollection is that there were four?

Mr. DANIELS. I think it was four.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections that you wish to make?

Mr. DANIELS. Let's see. I don't remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Any others?

Mr. DANIELS. I don't remember--corrections.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is my duty to call your attention to Exhibit 5325, which is the affidavit that you made on November 29.

Mr. DANIELS. November 29? What I said?

Mr. HUBERT. And in Exhibit 5327, which is the report of an interview by the agents of the FBI on December 18, you seem to quite clearly state that the man you saw walk down the ramp past Vaughn, did so after the car had passed?

Mr. DANIELS. Well, I said I think I have changed my mind now--I believe it was after the car had gone out when I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get it straight--what is your present impression now?

Mr. DANIELS. That's it--the way I fix it in my mind--the way I arrive at that conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was the guy that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it would have to be after that car came out, because that car had time to go quite a ways, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying then is that, the statements that are contained in Exhibits 5325 and 5327 you now believe to be correct?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the statement you made in your deposition earlier today that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was incorrect? I think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, and said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down past Vaughn before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier in your deposition?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes; until I refreshed myself on it and when I read that I got a better picture in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. So that now your testimony is that you think that the man you saw go by--past Vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is to say, after Vaughn had left his position at (2), gone out into the street to the approximate position of (4) and come back again to his position at (2)?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the man went straight by Vaughn?

Mr. DANIELS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But that is your present best recollection?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you believe that the thing that has made you change your mind is that when you read these statements--it refreshes your memory?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you worried about contradicting yourself?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I'm not worried about contradicting myself, I'm just trying to be sure and tell the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. Right--I want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us whether you contradict yourself or not.

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a mistake before that any kind of penalty or punishment or prosecution will follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful misstatement, but I'm not going into that now. What I want to know now is what really happened. Now, Mr. Daniels, that's why I asked you before to try to put everything out of your mind.

Mr. DANIELS. That's the trouble with this--it has been out of my mind and I am trying to get it back in there.

Mr. HUBERT. You feel now, considering all the statements you made originally are the truthful ones?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any other corrections or additions or deletions that you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been identified as exhibits as numbers 5325, 5326, and 5327?

Mr. DANIELS. I can't think of any.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it can be fairly said that anyone who would read the three exhibits 5325, 5326, and 5327 and who would read the transcript of your deposition at a later time and who would have the advantage of being able to follow your deposition on this chart that has been marked as Daniel's Exhibit 5324, that such a person reading all those documents would have all of the truth, so far as you know it?

Mr. DANIELS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And we would have all that you do know?

Mr. DANIELS. That's absolutely right--that's right, I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else, have you anything else to say?

Mr. DANIELS. No; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. I am glad you came by.

Mr. DANIELS. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. HARRISON

The testimony of William J. Harrison was taken at 3:45 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. William J. Harrison was accompanied by his counsel, Ted P. MacMaster.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was looking through here to see if I could get you a copy of our rules. Let me state for the record. Correct me if I get the names wrong. We have here Officer W. J. Harrison of the Dallas Police Department and Mr. MacMaster.

Mr. MacMASTER. Ted P. MacMaster [spelling] M-a-c-M-a-s-t-e-r, assistant city attorney of the city of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the formal part of it a copy of the rules, and I think this is a complete copy, Mr. MacMaster, and, if you like, let me hand them to you.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is fine. Thank you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then maybe, if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a little longer, I would be happy to do that. I will state for the record that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and this Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive Order 11130 by President Johnson issued November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to this Executive order and these resolutions, there have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the Commission, and I believe, Mr. MacMaster, that what I have just handed you is a copy, and I believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would like for me to check and make sure that is everything, I will check with one of my colleagues. Would----

Mr. MacMASTER. Yes; I would appreciate that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like me to?

Mr. MacMASTER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will have to take it.

(Recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I have checked with my colleague, Mr. Leon Hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete copy of the rules of the Commission.

Mr. MacMASTER. I would like to state for the record, Officer William J. Harrison, a member of the police department of the city of Dallas, Tex., is making a voluntary appearance here today and is here for the purpose of voluntarily assisting, in every way possible, in this investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time here to explain to you what is involved here. This Commission was set up under this resolution and this Executive order, which I have given you a copy of, for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting back to President Johnson upon the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. Now, we have asked Mr. Harrison to come here today to talk with him in particular about the facts that are attendant to the killing of Oswald. We don't want to preclude any information that you may have that falls anywhere within the scope of the Commission, so if there is anything, why I would like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear it.

Let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. Officer Harrison is appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the General Counsel of the Commission to Chief Curry, and the General Counsel, under these resolutions, has the right to determine who shall be deposed and also has the authority to authorize individual members of his staff to take individual depositions, and I have been authorized, pursuant to that letter to Mr. Curry, to take Mr. Harrison's deposition. Now, the witness is entitled to 3 days' written notice before he testifies before the Commission, and some of the witnesses have asked for it, others of them haven't.

Mr. MacMASTER. You don't have any reason for that?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. MacMASTER. He wants to waive that 3-day notice.

Mr. HARRISON. Just waive it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, also, they have a right to counsel before the Commission. Many of the witnesses have come before the Commission, and Mr. Harrison is here with Mr. MacMaster, who is his attorney. Do you have any questions you want to ask me before I swear the witness in?

Mr. MacMASTER. No; not that I know of at this point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, do you have any questions that you would like to ask me?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I would like to know if I understand. You have the reports that we made to the FBI?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. And also the ones that we made to our chief?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, we do.

Mr. HARRISON. Do we get to read those?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like to see a copy of them?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I haven't seen them.

Mr. MacMASTER. You want them to refresh your memory?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me get it out of here. Would you like to take time and go out?

Mr. MacMASTER. Do you want to take a little time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you look it over? You can step out of the room. Maybe I can find another office for you, too.

(Recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you again if you have any other questions that I can answer before I swear you in?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know of anything. This is off of the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. HARRISON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. HARRISON. William J. Harrison.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Harrison?

Mr. HARRISON. August 28, 1924.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. HARRISON. At 9223 Donnybrook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the Dallas department?

Mr. HARRISON. Past 16 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you attached to at present?

Mr. HARRISON. I am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the CID.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working in that capacity or were you a member of the department in that capacity on November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to ask you some questions generally about events, things have to do with events before the 24th, and I am not going to go into as much detail as the events of the 24th, but I do want to ask you where you were at the time that you heard that the President was shot.

Mr. HARRISON. Where I was at the time that I heard that the President was shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. I was on duty at the market hall. I was standing at the--I guess it would be the west end of the President's table.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Trade Mart?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dallas Trade Mart?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; market.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there after you heard that the President was shot?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was approximately an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. HARRISON. Come back to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Police Department Building or the city hall portion of it?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, to the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you go up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall. Stayed around the office there until time to go home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you got back to the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. It was around 1:30 or 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you go off duty that day?

Mr. HARRISON. Four.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have occasion to go out of the building between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. I don't think I ever went out of the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working on any particular cases that you recall?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were there prior to 4 o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby there at anytime prior to 4 o'clock Friday afternoon?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack personally?

Mr. HARRISON. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What bureau were you assigned to at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. I was in the traffic bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that motorcycle patrol?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; motorcycle patrol.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that downtown only?

Mr. HARRISON. No. We rode all over the city.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What particular business did you have in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, just regular, routine checks more or less.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see him on a social basis?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a police officer?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you in the last 12 years had any part-time jobs while you were with the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. Any part-time jobs while I--I didn't understand that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; while you were a member of the police department, did you have any part-time jobs?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have had part-time jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with any of this part-time work, have you ever worked with Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of part-time jobs have you had?

Mr. HARRISON. Around parade of homes, working traffic around these parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, department stores, working in both.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any special trade like carpenter, bricklayer or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do when you left the police department at 4 o'clock on Friday?

Mr. HARRISON. I drove home, went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you the remainder of the evening?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I don't recall at all, but I believe I was at my home. I don't think I had left the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that makes you think you might have been some place else?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I just don't remember back that--if I went anywhere or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what shift did you work on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. 8 to 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report for duty at the juvenile----

Mr. HARRISON. Bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the building all day on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. On a Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you worked out of the building on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't recall. It was just a normal, routine day, as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and checking those beeves that we had assigned to us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time that you went on duty on Saturday, did you receive any telephone calls or other communications from Jack Ruby or anybody who was an associate of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the police department about 4 p.m. on Saturday?

Mr. HARRISON. On Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir. No; I beg your pardon. Yes; it was about 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you left the police department, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald, proposed movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do Saturday after you left work?

Mr. HARRISON. I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you spend Saturday night at home?

Mr. HARRISON. Spend Saturday night at home; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for work on Sunday?

Mr. HARRISON. 8 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, anytime on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anywhere?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know any of his friends or associates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of George Senator?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that the President was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit Ruby's place?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe that I went in his place one time within the last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't--I don't recall. A group of us. I say a group of us. Occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down there, and, if I recall, I believe Officer Cutchshaw and myself went down to the Carousel Club one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your duties, did you ever find that Jack Ruby provided any useful information to the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you or any of the officers that you know in the police department attempt ever to obtain information out of Jack Ruby with respect to your duties?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't. I don't know if any of the other officers did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any assistance or information from him?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for work on Saturday--Sunday, rather--you say you report at 8 o'clock?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal reporting time in your bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car?

Mr. HARRISON. I parked it over by the garage on Young Street, and actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Young and----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what intersection?

Mr. HARRISON. Young and Pearl Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come into the building with any of your fellow officers?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came into the building through?

Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about the police department building.

Mr. HARRISON. I drove into the basement of the city hall there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, I thought you parked your car there.

Mr. HARRISON. I did. I parked my personal car on the parking lot across from the police garage on Young and Pearl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. I picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the basement of the city hall, where I parked it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What car number was it?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall. Don't have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of record that is maintained on what cars you drive?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you fill out a slip on that car?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that is over there?

Mr. HARRISON. They are left in the car, they are in the cars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And are they kept in a locked garage, is that it?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence up to, you know----

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a guard on the fence?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there is no guard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there any particular reason for taking that car that day?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we always park our personal car and pick up our city car and drive over close to the city hall there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And it is part of your responsibility, you ordinarily pick up a car?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a particular car assigned to you?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no. We have a pool system.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive back with anybody to the police department?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I was alone that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you parked the car in the garage of the municipal building and walked by the jail office?

Mr. HARRISON. To the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When you arrived, were there any newspaper people down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. In the basement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether there were any TV cameras set up when you arrived that day in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came in, I take it that you came in down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a guard on the Main Street ramp at the time that you came?

Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got up to the third floor? Is that right?

Mr. HARRISON. I went to the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the locker room first?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went right up to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the third floor?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when you got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No. Goolsby was working the desk and Mrs. McLine was there and Miller and Lowery. I believe Cutchshaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you recall?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Captain Martin there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall seeing him when I first come in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived up there in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. We checked to see what we had assigned to us. They assign the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have anything assigned to you at that time to work on?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did after you checked your assignments?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, Miller and I went to eat breakfast. I don't know the exact time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that was after you arrived?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea. Approximately 20 or 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with Lee Oswald when you came in?

Mr. HARRISON. I beg your pardon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to any of the people in connection with what was happening with Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall. I may have asked if he was still up there. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that--excuse me.

Mr. MacMaster, this is Mr. Hubert of our office. Mr. MacMaster is assistant city attorney. This is Mr. Harrison, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HARRISON. Hello. Glad to see you, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that you arrived in the building, had you heard anything in connection with the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I hadn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything about whether he was going to be moved at all that day?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, the--they were talking, the pressmen were talking about it out in the hall as we come by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear the press people say?

Mr. HARRISON. They said he would be moved sometime that morning, and I couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer Miller about this when you got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with any of the officers about this?

Mr. HARRISON. When Captain Martin came in, I believe we had gone to get breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did you have breakfast?

Mr. HARRISON. At the Deluxe Diner there at the 1900 block of Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. Mine or Miller's one. I don't remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask anybody else to go with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was just you and Miller that went to the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody at the Deluxe Diner that you knew?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people who operate the diner or the waitresses?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I know some of them that work over there, but I don't recall who was working that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you visit there often enough so that they know you?

Mr. HARRISON. Some of the employees do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk with before going? You didn't ask anybody to come with you. Did you tell anybody that you were going out?

Mr. HARRISON. We told the deskman, Goolsby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Goolsby?

Mr. HARRISON. We were going over to get a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how long did you remain at the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say around 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anything happen over there?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about the movement of Lee Oswald at all?

Mr. HARRISON. No. We didn't know anything about it then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you talked about over there?

Mr. HARRISON. I sure don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Speculation about whether they were going to get a story out of him, a confession, or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were through eating and went back over to the city hall there to the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were over at the Deluxe Diner?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you talked with any--had any telephone calls when you were there?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. HARRISON. I believe I did have a phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What do you remember about the phone call?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Goolsby. He called us and told us not to leave the city hall, that was the captain's order, Captain Martin's order. He told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through eating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. I recall that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you got back to the bureau, did you report back in to Goolsby?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he saw us come in. We didn't have to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Martin when you got back?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe he was there when we got back in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody when you got back about the proposed movement of Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. No. Of course, it may have been discussed there as to what time it would be. I don't recall who was talking or what was said, but I know we were told to stand by the bureau there by Captain Martin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when did Martin tell you this?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually, on this phone call Goolsby made over there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. When we got back up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Martin then tell you the same thing when you got up?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was it between the time that you got this call from Goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say about 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you came back from the diner, how did you come back into the building?

Mr. HARRISON. Came across to Harwood Street and down to the Harwood Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you went out, did you go out that way or did you go out by the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. HARRISON. Went that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody around the police building at that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a newspaperman?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name of Johnny Miller, who owns a trailer house sales on West Davis. It is right across from Sivils parking lot there. It is a trailer sales company. He was standing in the door of this television company truck talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, and I went on in the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mr. HARRISON. He just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was glad to see me, and that is the extent of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Miller know Ruby, to your knowledge?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know. I don't know that, whether he knows him or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything that would lead you to think that he might?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I have known Miller just about the same length of time that I have known Ruby, but I don't know whether he even knew Ruby or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Miller a close, personal friend of yours?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; just an acquaintance. Oh, I have stopped out there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a TV sales and repair shop that he runs?

Mr. HARRISON. No; a house trailer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sorry. House trailer. House trailer. Okay. Now, do you remember what you did in those roughly 2 hours between the time you got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; I don't recall, except sitting up there answering the phone and just checking on beeves that I had had assigned to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you all keeping your eye out for when Oswald would be moved?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would come and get us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for moving Oswald, what would be done before Oswald would be moved?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware that the homicide people were questioning Oswald at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. We didn't know they were. We assumed that they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there reporters running in and out of the office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they talking about the events that were going on?

Mr. HARRISON. They were mostly using the phone. They weren't talking to us. They were mostly calling their home office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were using the phone in your office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to hear what they were saying over the telephone?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. There were three of us in there that morning. All we told them was to leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the next thing you recall in connection with the movement of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. About, I would say, 3 or 4 or 5 minutes to 11. I went down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as I come back up out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were going across from the elevator to the--to there in front of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two basements, as I understand it, in the Police and Courts Building. One is the basement level that the garage is on and the jail office and the records room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is a subbasement?

Mr. HARRISON. Locker room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Locker room down below that. Now, how did you get down from the third floor into the subbasement? Does the elevator go all of the way down?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you get out of the jail office, where do you have to go?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, actually to the south end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk down to the hallway and then you open a door?

Mr. HARRISON. No; you go down a stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go down a stairway?

Mr. HARRISON. Into the subbasement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from Commerce Street down the steps to go to the door that entered into the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? Do you follow me?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's suppose that you walked from the record room to the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards Commerce Street.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the building, does it not?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you open that door and go out of the building, there are two other doors, right?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, isn't there a door on your--on your left as you face Commerce Street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the engine room?

Mr. HARRISON. Actually, I have never--I believe there is a door there. It is underneath where the stairway goes up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway goes up? In other words, as you walk out of the door from the building to leave the building and you step out of there, there is another door right in front of you right under this stairs----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn't there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I have never been down that way. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. From the assembly room, in the assembly room, where is this cigar dispensing machine?

Mr. HARRISON. They are not in the assembly room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not in the assembly room, in the locker room.

Mr. HARRISON. In the locker room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is it located?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know how to describe it to you. The machine is about, I guess, 18 foot from the door--from the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the far south end?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it is kind of west of the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. West of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the room, it is on the side closest to Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. No; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. Now, there is a door that separates the locker room from the area where the cold drinks and where the----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. Where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are all talking about the same thing here. I am not sure that Mr. MacMaster knows what we are talking about here. Would you draw Main Street or draw Commerce Street up on one end, which is convenient to you, and draw Harwood, and why don't you label them, write "Main," "Commerce," and "Harwood" in the appropriate spots? All right. Where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where would that be?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, this being the stair down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. There is no door here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRISON. There is a wall approximately in this position and there is a double door here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. All right. There is a big post here. It has a telephone on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. Cigar machine sits right here beside of this post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. And the Dr. Pepper and coke machines are all up and down this right side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What is in this area to the south of the doorway?

Mr. HARRISON. This?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. Lockers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw that in there, write that in there? Write "Locker Room" or something. Did you have a locker in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your locker located, approximately?

Mr. HARRISON. Down here, however it hadn't been used in over 2-1/2 or 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody down here when you went down there to get the cigars?

Mr. HARRISON. There was no one down there when I went down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to go into the locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after you got the cigars?

Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate area. The officers were going across from the elevator to the jail office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you came up, you found the officers had left?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean had left the juvenile bureau, right?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, they were leaving the elevator coming across.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met them in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. Met them in the basement, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did you see there at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was Miller, Lowery and Cutchshaw, Goolsby, and I believe that was all out of our bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you saw them?

Mr. HARRISON. One of them told me to come on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which one that was?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go with them?

Mr. HARRISON. We stood in front of the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened as you waited around there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were waiting around to get--find out where they were going to put us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you finally get some instructions from somebody?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Captain Jones that come in and told us that--to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and where the--well, on the west wall, in other words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let's go off of the record here. I want to find out.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here Harrison Exhibit 5027, and I am going to ask you, Officer Harrison, if you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, "cigar machine."

Mr. HARRISON. This is a post here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A post. A support post. All right. Why don't you mark that post, then? And then mark the area where the--okay. Now, and that is "door." Okay. Now, would you sign that any place where you can get your signature and then date it?

(Recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. We were at the point where you had come into the basement area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I told Goolsby that I was going down and get me some cigars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done?

Mr. HARRISON. Captain Jones, I believe it was, had come out and told us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set--to put these photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit 5028) which is--actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas Police Department made for us some time ago and purports to represent the basement area? You can see the jail office here?

Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down and the Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall along Commerce Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the building. Now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance into the garage, can you mark on there what Captain Jones--how Captain Jones indicated that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers?

Mr. HARRISON. He wanted them across along here on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along there to show?

Mr. HARRISON. You want to put "news"?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news media, newspeople, also?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the garage on up toward the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. There were some.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what instructions did he give in that regard?

Mr. HARRISON. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted them on the east side or the west side of the railing?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he didn't specify that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news media in this area other than the TV people?

Mr. HARRISON. In this area right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about in the area to the north of where you have placed the "X's"? Was it your understanding that----

Mr. HARRISON. There were floodlights standing here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he give--go ahead.

Mr. HARRISON. There were cameras here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police officers were to stand?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any lines of police officers or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down that these instructions were given?

Mr. HARRISON. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes?

Mr. HARRISON. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay in the same general area?

Mr. HARRISON. I did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where was it you were, generally?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like to recess this at some particular hour, let me know.

Mr. MacMASTER. Let me suggest this. Do you have any idea how long this interrogation will last?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes.

Mr. MacMASTER. More?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don't think it will go any longer than that, however----

Mr. MacMASTER. What is your--would you just rather stay and finish?

Mr. HARRISON. I would rather stay and finish.

Mr. MacMASTER. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here on the phone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. HARRISON. May I ask you something here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes.

Mr. MacMASTER. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to worry about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You wanted to ask me.

Mr. HARRISON. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. The cameras were right in line here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were making an effort to steer these news people over into this area and away from the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir; I do. I let the--I had to move the people back out of the way. There was actually two cars went out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were two cars?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me about that.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a squad car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that was?

Mr. HARRISON. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something like that, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was anybody in the car with him?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what--for what purpose he went out?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What division is he assigned to?

Mr. HARRISON. Radio patrol.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people along the street who were supposed to block off Elm Street?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to go, how Oswald was to be conveyed?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used to convey him?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce Street side of the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on the scene?

Mr. HARRISON. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into the driveway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did O'Dell get his car from?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here talking. I believe it was one of the--one of the supervisors talking to a reserve captain, who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there were--at the time that O'Dell's car went out, there were police officers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, closer to Main Street than you were?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you place on there all of the--all right. Let me strike that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say.

Mr. HARRISON. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, and then it was shortly after that that I took up this position here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came out--well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came out, were you ever in this area here?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I was moving from this area around to here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. In other words, keeping----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football diagram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placement of Harrison"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of where you were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then down in the corner, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when O'Dell's car started to move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's car moved, were there police officers between you and Main Street?

Mr. HARRISON. There was--I believe there was a captain--I don't recall who it was--I believe it was Captain Jones, though--talking to this uniformed reserve captain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Solomon?

Mr. HARRISON. No; Arnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Arnett?

Mr. HARRISON. In the Dallas reserves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other police officers up in that general direction?

Mr. HARRISON. There were officers out in this area right in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the jail?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, no; right along the side here. See, this was lined with officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. West wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is where there were police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail office, officers right in there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what did you do?

Mr. HARRISON. I just moved these men back and--or asked them to move back--and let him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there news people strung across the Main Street ramp who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move through?

Mr. HARRISON. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after O'Dell's car went up the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between the ramp and--the rail and the west wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you looking around the area generally?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, would you have seen him come down?

Mr. HARRISON. Would you repeat that, now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to the time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that Pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming down there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less back in this particular----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. At any time during those few minutes between O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the direction of the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the garage area?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that period, would you have seen him?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, why do you say that?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of the garage, wasn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would recognize him?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and Jack Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the direction of the garage?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. HARRISON. In this position. These floodlights were very bright.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. HARRISON. They had--I don't know how many they had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that Oswald came out?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they--try to think about this, now--were they on when you first came into the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I don't believe they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they were taken--did you know whether or not, when the armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, any of the TV cameras, were focused on that armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the floodlights on?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV cameras--were the floodlights on?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether they were on or off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction of the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And standing, from where you were, even in the center of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up there, couldn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Possibly, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there--other than the little difficulty we all experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and seeing in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far down the ramp, I should say?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting just backed into the doorway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say it was halfway down?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it wasn't halfway down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up there around the back of the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you distinguish these police officers from the position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you recognize who they were, toward the armored car?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall seeing--now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out of the truck there inspecting it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall seeing him up there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing Batchelor from your position on the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you looked up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the ramp up there?

Mr. HARRISON. There was a uniformed officer up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and what-not?

Mr. HARRISON. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in uniform up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Vaughn before?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from where you were that it was Vaughn up there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see his uniform and back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you?

Mr. HARRISON. He was facing out when I looked up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would have recognized who it was?

Mr. HARRISON. I would probably have recognized him; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked up toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were--do you remember that there were officers guarding up there?

Mr. HARRISON. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the armored truck had the light blocked off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. I mean the vision, it was pretty well--the whole ramp area was pretty well taken up by that truck?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any occasion that you had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there had been a man walking down that ramp, you or any other officer with vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person coming down the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or not due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that is the north side of the building.

Mr. HARRISON. That is on the north side of the building, but it was very bright that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also had floodlights down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was bright in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights?

Mr. HARRISON. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it would have been hard to recognize. I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing up in the position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor was?

Mr. HARRISON. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man coming down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in your face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that area," I am referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Would you ask that question again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRISON. And point out there, please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across the Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there?

Mr. HARRISON. There was several officers in this area right in here. I don't know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. There was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, your right as you faced in what direction?

Mr. HARRISON. As I was facing south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be toward Commerce Street?

Mr. HARRISON. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At what point was there a man there?

Mr. HARRISON. He was even with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at what time----

Mr. HARRISON. Oh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this series of events.

Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area all of the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you keep an eye on him?

Mr. HARRISON. No. I wasn't particularly watching him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other news people who were there in that area?

Mr. HARRISON. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately to my left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the position you were standing at the time that Oswald walked out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are you talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is where that Japanese photographer, newsman, was?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on that map where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is where the Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald walked out----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone standing?

Mr. HARRISON. He was immediately to my right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, were there any other police officers over in this general area where you 3 people were?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the other police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did you do?

Mr. HARRISON. I got these people to move back out of the way and let him through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there and let him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or were you facing the railing?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I had my back to the railing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all?

Mr. HARRISON. I watched it until it cleared the people in that immediate area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate area, would you say?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of the press, or were there some police officers?

Mr. HARRISON. There were some police officers in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung along in that area that you were? Was there more than one line of people?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then----

Mr. HARRISON. Now, where are you referring to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line of people that came from the north----

Mr. HARRISON. Northwest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or northeast? I think this would be the west.

Mr. MacMASTER. Northwest, that is right, isn't it?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, from what I have marked the northwest corner of the Main Street wall all of the way over to you and then around here? No?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these people were lined up.

Mr. HARRISON. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, this area was open. There was, like I say, this Japanese, and there was another man or two in that area here, whom I don't--I don't have any idea who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay.

Mr. HARRISON. And behind me, there were--not immediately behind me, but back in this area----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain Arnett of the reserves standing--he was standing fairly close to me behind me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Captain Arnett? Put an "A" where you think he was and then put a circle around that.

Mr. HARRISON. He was in that general area somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time that Oswald walked out?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I believe he was. I am not----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him there about that time?

Mr. HARRISON. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the captain who was in the uniform down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that time?

Mr. HARRISON. They were--yes; they were there. There were, I believe, two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the films?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the ones here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here hollered for me to move the line back, which I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly behind you?

Mr. HARRISON. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of him coming out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out or would have been worried about it or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into the path of this--of where Oswald was coming out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, did you look in the direction of the ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any other officers look in the direction of the ramp during that period?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove out, were other officers lined up along----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The other wall?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in this direction toward the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They could have been. There was--I know, when they brought Oswald out, Lowery was standing right here on the--on this corner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you put a mark, put an "L" there where Lowery was? Did you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any time before he shot Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Not before he shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing up against your back?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you saw where Jack came from?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there?

Mr. HARRISON. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he saw Ruby there?

Mr. HARRISON. I sure haven't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor with him and then we took him on into the jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office?

Mr. HARRISON. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the elevator with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain with him upstairs?

Mr. HARRISON. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the elevator to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--you weren't present, were you, when Jack was stripped and searched?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go?

Mr. HARRISON. I went back out into the ramp area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you--how long did you remain in the ramp area?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was about--until after the ambulance left with Oswald, and then the captain--I believe it was Captain Jones--sent me up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that--on the first floor that wasn't authorized. We were given orders to stop everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor?

Mr. HARRISON. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the elevator door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there alone?

Mr. HARRISON. There was--well, there was three or four more officers on that floor. There was one at every door and exit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Miller up there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall where Miller was at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Officer Lowery up there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Cutchshaw?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know whether they were or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before you got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back downstairs from taking him up--I told Chief Batchelor that I thought he come from behind those cameras over there, but--and that is where I thought he come from at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, there was--he came from my left, and I don't see how he could get down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you feel that way?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just didn't feel like he could have gotten down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had come down that ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, not necessarily; because I wasn't looking toward the ramp all of the time. I never--had I been turned where I could have seen the ramp all of the time, I may have seen him coming down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack had been in that--were you moving around such after Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the basement area, you would have seen him?

Mr. HARRISON. Not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been down there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over in this group of newsmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the Main Street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there?

Mr. HARRISON. I might have. I don't--I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that area to have obscured him, were there?

Mr. HARRISON. Not in that immediate area; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't suppose there would have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but if you feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am asking a leading question here, but I want to make sure that I am not leading----

Mr. HARRISON. What was the question again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? The fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have looked at some films, and I did look to my left, oh----

Mr. GRIFFIN. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I looked to my left and backed the people up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No; it would be toward the cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Toward the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. Television cameras, yes; over in this direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you only remember it from having seen the photograph?

Mr. HARRISON. No; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where we were in trying to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. In trying to get out of line of those cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area?

Mr. HARRISON. There wasn't anyone in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In front of the cameras?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no one in front of the cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say would be the total number of people, including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came out?

Mr. HARRISON. I would say maybe eight or nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those elevators?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when you left the elevators?

Mr. HARRISON. Went back upstairs to the bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Juvenile bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. We stayed there until they told us to--Captain Jones told us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and what we did on this thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to write a report to everybody?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he told--I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He told me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller up there at the time?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, well, he told--came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw--I remember that very distinctly--to go into Captain Fritz' office and write a report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. After you wrote that report, you went out to Love Field, didn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love Field?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor Cabell's plane left. I believe it was at 5:20, and we left the city hall shortly after 4 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left the city hall, did you make--did you report in with the dispatcher or anything like that?

Mr. HARRISON. No; there was no--we went out in two separate cars and we went to--started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to return to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement and briefed us as to what to do out at Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. HARRISON. And then we headed on out to Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's record or something like that, that would show when you left for Love Field, or would there?

Mr. HARRISON. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that call to return to the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And that was a call from captain who?

Mr. HARRISON. Martin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had already started out----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much time elapsed between the time that you finished--well, strike that. Did you finish writing the report in the homicide office?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you finished that report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love Field?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't have any idea, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile bureau?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there an original copy--you wrote that report by hand, didn't you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, and is that--I am going to call a halt here and I am going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand you, Mr. Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. 5030. Now, this is a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to Chief Curry dated November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that out in hand first?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you know whether your office has retained handwritten copies of those reports?

Mr. HARRISON. No. It was--I am sure it was thrown away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and sent in by, I think, Lieutenant Wallace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find out from them if the handwritten copies of the things--of your report, handwritten copy of your report, is available----

Mr. HARRISON. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been able to get these for us.

Mr. HARRISON. Uh-huh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I would appreciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return the original to the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, do you remember whether or not--do you remember any of the people who were in the homicide office when you filled out that report?

Mr. HARRISON. Cutchshaw, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the homicide people who were there?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Fritz was there?

Mr. HARRISON. He was in and out of there during the time that we were in there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if Montgomery was there?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, Montgomery was in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be close neighbors to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that very clearly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had happened down in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to go to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the basement?

Mr. HARRISON. No. They were talking about--Lowery said that he thought that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior to the time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. And--but that is the only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. For some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I mean the men in my particular bureau.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Lowery first tell you that?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other rumors as to how he got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir; sure didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you hear any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, no; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot--I mean Oswald was shot?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Archer?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found out later, but I didn't see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Clardy?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Dean?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall if Dean was on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after Ruby was shot--Oswald was shot?

Mr. HARRISON. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any people in the patrol division----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Afterward?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was shot, did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got back--what time did you get back to the juvenile bureau on Friday--I mean on Sunday?

Mr. HARRISON. It was well after 6 o'clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you--when you got back there, did you talk with anybody about how Ruby might have got in?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I went on home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any discussion from anybody----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From anybody about how--well, weren't people generally discussing this?

Mr. HARRISON. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this time?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you got back on Monday morning--did you come in Monday morning?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in?

Mr. HARRISON. I suppose I did, but I don't recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor that he came down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that--have you talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday the 24th?

Mr. HARRISON. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it was. Of course, we have talked to several.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Dean at any time?

Mr. HARRISON. No; I have never talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you friendly to Dean?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How about Archer?

Mr. HARRISON. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Clardy?

Mr. HARRISON. Occasionally; I see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have any of these men told you since the--since the time that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in through the Main Street ramp?

Mr. HARRISON. They never did tell me that, none of them. Now----

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first--go ahead.

Mr. HARRISON. I heard, after the trial down there--I heard them discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. And when Lieutenant Wallace and Lieutenant McCaghren were making their followup investigation, which I don't know how many days it was after, they had talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they had suggested this?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or less, they had kind of--I guess you would make a theory out of it that he had come down the ramp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the inference or the conclusion that they drew?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, sign Exhibit 5028 and date it.

Mr. HARRISON. This is the 25th, isn't it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so that Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit you to ask any questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and I am prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or something like that, and come back, I would be happy to do that, and resume it later on this evening.

Mr. HARRISON. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with you all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't make any difference with me.

Mr. MacMASTER. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the first exhibit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Twenty-seven.

Mr. MacMASTER. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement area. Is that the police recreation room or locker room?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend that to be exact to scale in any way?

Mr. HARRISON. No.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is all. At the time you were down in the basement area and they brought Oswald down, with the police security measures that were in effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any unauthorized person would enter into the area, would you----

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. Because of the police measures in effect at that time----

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. Security measures? In other words, any other unauthorized persons in the area, in other words, Ruby, would be a big surprise to you?

Mr. HARRISON. It would; yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. Was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person down there the first time when he came around you?

Mr. HARRISON. It certainly was.

Mr. MacMASTER. Now, on extra duty for police officers, isn't it a standard departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at anyplace serving alcoholic beverages?

Mr. HARRISON. That is correct.

Mr. MacMASTER. Is that the chief's direct order?

Mr. HARRISON. That is a direct order. They have special officers for that type of work.

Mr. MacMASTER. But it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, special officers?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. MacMASTER. But you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't work anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving alcoholic beverages?

Mr. HARRISON. That is right; either in uniform or out of uniform.

Mr. MacMASTER. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Harrison, I wonder if you would look at what I have marked as Exhibits 5029, 5030, and 5031. Five thousand twenty-nine is a report of an interview of two FBI agents, Wilkinson and Hardin, had with you on December 5, 1963; Exhibit 5030 is a copy of a statement or a letter, which you addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald," and Exhibit 5031 is a copy of--is a report of an interview that Agent Bookhout, [spelling] B-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on November 24, 1963. Have you looked over these statements today?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or additions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony that has already been given here today?

Mr. HARRISON. This on Mr. Bookhout's interview, which was over the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was?

Mr. HARRISON. It was over the telephone. I was at Love Field when this----

Mr. MacMASTER. To identify that, that is Exhibit 5031 you are referring to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; let me ask you a question there. Do you know how Bookhout reached you there?

Mr. HARRISON. I had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay out there, and Lieutenant Coulon identified Mr. Bookhout to me over the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any other officers were out there with you?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Bookhout talk to those officers over the phone, also?

Mr. HARRISON. No; he did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. HARRISON. But this one little part right here, I don't recall saying that at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What part is that?

Mr. HARRISON. "Saved a lot of people some trouble."

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, all right. Now, is it possible that you could have said that to him?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that you don't think you did?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I didn't hear it. I mean I heard him say this very plain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. "I hope I killed the SOB," you heard him say that?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't hear him state, "And saved a lot of people some trouble"?

Mr. HARRISON. I don't recall hearing that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you do this? Would you take a pen and would you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that sentence, and then would you write in there, "I don't believe I stated that," or whatever you believe that reflects your opinion at this time? Would you initial that?

Mr. HARRISON. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And date it. It is the 25th day. Now, are there any other changes or additions or corrections you would make on there?

Mr. HARRISON. Oh, on this, where it says, "You all know me, I am Jack Ruby, made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, actually and I don't know where this "several times" came from.

Mr. MacMASTER. Was that just once in your presence?

Mr. HARRISON. Yes.

Mr. MacMASTER. In other words, while you were around and near Jack Ruby, is the only time you heard him was just one time?

Mr. HARRISON. One time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don't you cross out "several times" and write "once"? And why don't you initial it and date it? Anything else on there?

Mr. HARRISON. No. It all seems to be----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would, sign each of those.

Mr. HARRISON. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, put it down on the same page that I have marked the exhibit, some place where it is legible. Why don't you put it down at the bottom of the page and date it?

Mr. HARRISON. All of them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, not every page. Just every page that I have marked as an exhibit.

Mr. MacMASTER. Is that all now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all that I have got.

Mr. MacMASTER. Do you have any more?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do have one other question to ask here.

Mr. MacMASTER. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I or any member of the Commission staff talked with you prior to this deposition?

Mr. HARRISON. No, sir.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. HOLLY, JR.

The testimony of Harold B. Holly, Jr., was taken at 8 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold B. Holly, Jr. Mr. Holly, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel to the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the authority of the Presidential Proclamation 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure that have been adopted by the Commission, I have been authorized to take your deposition under oath. Now, the general nature of the inquiry of the Commission is to ascertain the facts concerning the death of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you know concerning these events, or anything related to them.

I advise you that under the rules adopted by the Commission, you have a right to a 3-day written notice prior to being asked to come for a deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that right if he wishes to do so.

You have been asked to come because Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, wrote a letter to Mr. J. E. Curry asking that he make you available. But I repeat, you may either waive the 3-day notice, or if you wish you may insist on the 3-day notice. Do you wish to waive that notice?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I would like to go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean yes, you wish to waive? You would rather go ahead?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLLY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your full name, sir?

Mr. HOLLY. Harold B. Holly, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HOLLY. Forty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HOLLY. 3429 Antilles, Mesquite.

Mr. HUBERT. Mesquite, it is not in Dallas?

Mr. HOLLY. No; it is Mesquite, Tex., a suburb.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are actually a reserve officer of the Dallas police?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the reserves?

Mr. HOLLY. Five years, going on six.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in civilian life?

Mr. HOLLY. General contractor and cabinetwork.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you own your own business?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir. Nineteen years.

Mr. HUBERT. In that business?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I know that you performed some services as a reserve officer on the 22d and 23d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions you performed on the 24th, or perhaps you didn't perform?

Mr. HOLLY. Let's say the 23d and the 24th. The assassination took place the 23d, right?

Mr. HUBERT. No, 22d.

Mr. HOLLY. 22d and 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a Saturday. I am asking about Sunday the 24th.

Mr. HOLLY. I was up here all day Saturday. Sunday, I didn't participate, as well as I can remember.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not anticipated being called?

Mr. HOLLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you, in fact, called on Sunday?

Mr. HOLLY. I don't recall now. It is pretty vague there. The day of assassination I was called, and the day Oswald was shot, I was called.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was the 24th of November, a Sunday.

Mr. HOLLY. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, how were you called?

Mr. HOLLY. I beg your pardon, I was here Friday. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday; I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. And at what time were you called on Sunday the 24th the day Oswald was shot?

Mr. HOLLY. It was the morning. I believe it was around 9 o'clock and they called and said for me to report downtown. They were going to try to move him out around 2 o'clock. I immediately come to town.

Mr. HUBERT. You got into uniform?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; and at the present time, I don't recall, because I got down about 5 minutes after he was shot. I reported for duty at the entrance of the Main Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. He had already been shot?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you speak who gave you that information?

Mr. HOLLY. Lieutenant Kriss.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from bogging down in front of the city hall entrance. And I stayed there approximately 30 minutes, and then I was reassigned out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go out there?

Mr. HOLLY. By the convenience of the city. We was hauled out in a squad car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out with any group?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I went out with a group. There were five in our group.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out there?

Mr. HOLLY. I was there approximately 3 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you in that group?

Mr. HOLLY. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I don't. I don't recall none of the names, because I wasn't familiar with any of the boys.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember that during the time that you were out at Parkland Hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated that he had seen the man who shot Oswald coming down the ramp?

Mr. HOLLY. No; he didn't approach me, because I approached him. I went over to find where I could get some water. I was stationed where the entrance is where the Governor was, and he told me there was some coffee and water if I wanted, and I went in and when I came back I struck up a conversation with the man, and we were talking about----

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; he was a reserve. And in the conversation he said that he either knew or he saw Ruby down in the city hall, knew of him getting down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking, from what you could tell, of Ruby being down in there on the morning that Oswald was assassinated?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes. I asked him--the conversation went like, well, how in the world could they ever let him in. Everybody knew him, which most reserves do know him.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him?

Mr. HOLLY. Oh, yes; I knew him. I did business with him. And I would know him if I saw him. But I wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, I don't know.

And he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know who he was, this reserve?

Mr. HOLLY. No. I tried to go through the photographs of who I thought it was. I never have learned if it was him.

Mr. HUBERT. You did pick out a person?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the man you picked out?

Mr. HOLLY. No. Captain Solomon mentioned his name, but I don't recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Newman refresh your memory?

Mr. HOLLY. Newman? It's been so long ago. I wouldn't say.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any doubt about your identification?

Mr. HOLLY. Well, other than I described the man to him, and, of course, I went over the photographs with Captain Solomon on Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. A week later?

Mr. HOLLY. On that following Sunday after the date. No; it was a week later. I beg your pardon. It was a week later, and I met him up there Sunday, and we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, and the boy I picked out, Captain Solomon said, "Well, that is one of the men that is down in the basement," and that is the only one I could think it could have been.

And he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and I never did hear of any more of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I mean is, the man you did pick out, is there any doubt in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the hospital who told you he had seen Ruby?

Mr. HOLLY. There is a little doubt there, yes. I wouldn't be too positive of it. But I feel----

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen this man since?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I haven't seen him since. I didn't know him and never had seen him before that. But I am pretty positive I picked out the right man, the one that I did see and talk to.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get you straight. You say that you are pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little while before you said that you weren't quite sure? There is a little difference between the two?

Mr. HOLLY. I went over several photographs with Captain Solomon and he is the only one that resembles him.

The photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a little doubt there, and that is the only part I can be doubted on.

I think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe 3 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't get the man and confront you with him?

Mr. HOLLY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or what?

Mr. HOLLY. I would say he was in his thirties, about 37 years old or 36 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a little husky?

Mr. HOLLY. He was about 165 or 170, about 5'8" or 9", and blue eyes and bald headed.

Mr. HUBERT. He had on a cap?

Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. He had on a hat?

Mr. HOLLY. Had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the way I see it, among those pictures that Captain Solomon showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man?

Mr. HOLLY. I still think it was the same man that Captain Solomon--he didn't tell me prior, but after I picked him out, he said that is the only man it could have been, because he was down in the basement, and the way I described it, it fitted the description I had given. He did explain after it was over that the photographs were about 3 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that you passed on the information that this reserve officer had given you to someone, did you not?

Mr. HOLLY. How was that?

Mr. HUBERT. You reported to someone that a reserve officer had told you?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report it to?

Mr. HOLLY. I reported it to the CID officer, I guess it was, down on the first or second floor of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. HOLLY. No; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. Which detective was that?

Mr. HOLLY. Detective Eberhardt. I gave the information to one of the stenographers up in burglary and theft division, and I typed it out and sent it on down to the lieutenant. Offhand, I don't recall his name. It was one of the investigators on the case.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you contacted to make a statement about your activities?

Mr. HOLLY. The subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out at the house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out how in the world Ruby ever got down in the basement. And I said, "Well, my Lord, one of the reserves let him in."

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. HOLLY. I would say that was on about a Wednesday or Thursday after the accident. And he said, "Will you make a statement?" And I said, "I will be glad to."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make a written statement, or was it just oral?

Mr. HOLLY. Oral statement and I signed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he write it for your signature as a letter to the chief?

Mr. HOLLY. A letter to the--it went through--I don't know what procedure it did go through. I just don't know the hand it went into.

Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of identification, we will see if we can determine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of is one of these, one that I have here. And also in order to get the contents of these two reports into the record, I am going to identify them by marking the first one as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5109, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr.," and I am signing my name on the margin. I notice that it has a second page with two lines, and I am putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

The other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an interview, or the report of an interview by two FBI agents, Mr. Dallman and Mr. Quigley. I am marking that as "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5110, Deposition of H. B. Holly, Jr." I am signing my name on the first page and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, and fifth pages. I would like you, Mr. Holly, if you will, please to read all these, and I want to ask you about the correctness of each one. So I would like you to read it carefully and after you have done so, I will ask you to make any comments you want as to the correctness, make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because neither of these are your own statements. This is what other people said you said. Then I want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, yourself, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. So, would you do that, please?

Mr. HOLLY. [Reads report.]

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Holly, I have shown you, and I think you have read now the exhibits which I have identified as No. 5109, being a report of an interview of you by Jack Revill, said report being made to Chief of Police Curry in a letter dated December 1, 1963. Does that substantially represent what you said?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is anything wrong about it?

Mr. HOLLY. The only thing I can see wrong is, the report wasn't made right after the assassination. It was about 5 days afterwards. That is the only thing I can see.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. Oh, you mean the report about having heard that?

Mr. HOLLY. To Lieutenant Revill there. I believe he corrected that, but it wasn't made right after. Statement says that I made a statement to Sergeant Eberhart.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't see anything in 5109 that indicates you made this report about talking to that man the next day. As a matter of fact, I don't see where this report of an interview by Revill attempts to indicate the day on which you reported that this reserve officer had said these things to you.

I think the other document does that. Well, let's look at 5110, which is the FBI report of interview, I think.

Mr. HOLLY. I believe it was in the FBI report there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on the third page there is of Exhibit 5110, in the last paragraph, there is the following language. "He relayed this information to a close personal friend of his, Detective Gus Eberhardt, who is a regular officer assigned to the burglary and theft bureau. He believed he told Eberhardt this on the following day." Is that the part you think is not correct?

Mr. HOLLY. No; that is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you, then?

Mr. HOLLY. It was about the Sunday. It was about Thursday of that week, approximately Thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and I was going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that he was trying to find out as to how Ruby entered the city hall, and I said, "Well, the information you have there I passed on to him." And he said, "Will you make a signed statement to that effect." And I said, "I would be glad to."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then and there----

Mr. HOLLY. I immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made a statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get that in too.

(Discussion off the record.)

I am now marking for identification a document which is Commission Document 81A.48. It is apparently a copy of a letter dated November 29, 1963, addressed to Mr. J. E. Curry, Chief of Police, by A. M. Eberhardt, Detective. The copy seems to be signed in ink by A. M. Eberhardt. For identification, I am marking that document, although I am not removing it from this file, and "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5111, Deposition of H. B. Holly." I am signing my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr. That document consists of only one page.

Now, going back for a moment to 5110, that is the FBI report, I think you said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is probably a correct record of the interview you had with the FBI agents, except that it was in error when it stated that you had conveyed this information to Eberhart on the day after Oswald was shot. Your recollection was that it was Thursday of that week?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This letter indicates, Exhibit 5111, indicates that that information was passed on to Eberhardt on November 29, which I believe was a Thursday.

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; I don't remember if that is dated or not.

Mr. HUBERT. That is dated November 29.

Mr. HOLLY. That was a Wednesday or Thursday after the shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. The 29th or November 1963, was a Friday night. Could it have been Friday night?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; it could have been.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, this Exhibit 5111, you think, is the report that you were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes; that is the only report that I made to Detective Eberhardt.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you thought you had signed it.

Mr. HOLLY. I thought I signed that. That is the one right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit 5111 is the one you were talking about?

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had the recollection of having signed it? Of course, here we have only a copy of it.

Mr. HOLLY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't indicate that there was a space for you to sign.

Mr. HOLLY. I was thinking I signed it.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no other report than this one here?

Mr. HOLLY. No; no other report other than the one that I talked to Lieutenant Revill about.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other statements or comments to make concerning any part of this?

Mr. HOLLY. No; I have covered it pretty well, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any others than this deposition today?

Mr. HOLLY. No, sir; this is the first time I ever met or seen you.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any interviews with any other members of the President's Commission, do you know?

Mr. HOLLY. No; other than the FBI, two FBI officers.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about persons who identified themselves as members of the Commission?

Mr. HOLLY. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

Mr. HOLLY. That is all right. I am glad to be of service.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY M. KRISS

The testimony of Harry M. Kriss was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harry Kriss. Mr. Kriss, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the Commission. Under the provisions of the President's Executive Order 11130, dated November 23, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Kriss, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission to Mr. J. E. Curry, the chief of police, who was asked to make all of you gentlemen available to us. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, however, you were entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Are you willing to waive?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; I will waive.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KRISS. So help me God.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. KRISS. Harry M. Kriss [spelling] K-r-i-s-s. M is the initial.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age, please? Your age?

Mr. KRISS. Fifty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. KRISS. 6906 Merrilee Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. KRISS. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are a reserve officer, are you not?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation in general?

Mr. KRISS. Occupation in general, manufacturer of sportswear, men's, and manufacturer of neckwear.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been in the reserve?

Mr. KRISS. Eleven years.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, were you called on November 24, 1963?

Mr. KRISS. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Sunday after the President's death.

Mr. KRISS. That is Sunday after--yes, sir; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at home at the time?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; I was getting ready to play golf. Four or five more minutes and I'd have been gone.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were called to report?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did report, did you report in uniform?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; surely I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mr. Kriss, I am showing you here two documents which concern what you have already had to say about the matter.

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think we can save considerable time if I'll ask you to identify these and comment upon them, but before doing so I wish to identify them as exhibits so that we can speak of them in those terms.

Mr. KRISS. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, on the letter, or copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed to J. E. Curry, the original of which, I suppose, was signed by you, I am marking it for identification, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5106. Deposition of H. M. Kriss." I will put "reserve officer." I will sign my name to that, and I note that this Exhibit 5106 consists of one page only. The next document is a report of an interview made December 3, 1963, with you by the FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin and it consists of two pages. I am marking the first page, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5107. Deposition of H. M. Kriss." Or, rather, "reserve officer", and I am signing my name on the first page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second page. Now, Mr. Kriss, you have read both of these statements I believe?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are these substantially correct?

Mr. KRISS. Substantially; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any additions to add to it?

Mr. KRISS. I can't think of any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything that you see that is wrong that should be deleted?

Mr. KRISS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, in order that your testimony just now concerning these documents may be tied into the particular documents, I would like you to sign them so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same documents.

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Just write underneath my signature.

Mr. KRISS. Well, do you have a pen?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you can use that one. Just initial the second page. Now, sign--initial the second page on the FBI report.

Mr. KRISS. You want me to sign?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just sign under my name. I think there is only one point I want to clarify about this matter. Are you familiar with the chart or map made by the Dallas Police Department of the basement area showing the positions of all the various officers?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in the report that they have filed, the documents relative to your statements, you are identified in that report as No. 61. As a matter of fact, attached to the map was a key, showing that 61 was H. M. Kriss. It shows, however, that you were standing, at the time of the shooting, in the north part, I suppose it would be, on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. KRISS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And I notice that your statement says it was different.

Mr. KRISS. No; I wasn't.

Mr. HUBERT. Even so, to clarify that, I would like you to see what this is so you can see what I am talking about. See your number on this key. This 61?

Mr. KRISS. 61; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you get to this map--see 61 on the Main Street ramp?

Mr. KRISS. That is the Main Street ramp. That is where I was after--it was--that is where I placed myself when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the basement."

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That will clarify it then.

Mr. KRISS. You can see it on television. I saw it the other night again where I ran across and when they said, "Don't let anyone out of the basement," that is where I placed myself.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that is going to explain that, and in order to make it a matter of record, I am going to ask you to show your position before the shooting, and your position after the shooting on this map, but first let me identify this map by marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5108, deposition of H. M. Kriss." I am signing my name to it, and I will ask you for the purposes of identification so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same document, to put your name right there. Now, I would like you to look over there at the mockup. And on the mockup, determine where you were.

Mr. KRISS. That is Main Street--I was right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see if we can find that on the map and mark it. It would be right here, wouldn't it?

Mr. KRISS. No; right over here [indicating]. Wouldn't it? No, here is the--wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we get at this----

Mr. KRISS. This is Main----

Mr. HUBERT. And this is Commerce Street.

Mr. KRISS. Right. That is the jail right----

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. KRISS. Here is the position right here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. On the Commerce Street like that? I am drawing a circle----

Mr. KRISS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I am drawing the line out then and I am putting, "Position of H. M. Kriss."

Mr. KRISS. The four----

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting?

Mr. KRISS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed on the large map that was attached to the Dallas report that--and to the key to the personnel, your number was 61, and that they had 61 in the position I am now marking in a circle. Can you tell me what the explanation of that is, sir?

Mr. KRISS. That is confusing, because after the shooting they hollered, "Don't let anyone out of the basement." And I saw the truck over here, so I ran over here and placed myself right here.

Mr. HUBERT. Where this circle is.

Mr. KRISS. Yes, right; that is where I placed myself.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are at this position, but it was after the shooting instead of before?

Mr. KRISS. After the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I am placing a circle of your position.

Mr. KRISS. After the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. And drawing a line from it and writing "Position of H. M. Kriss after the shooting."

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Right.

Mr. KRISS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, about how long had you been in the position you were in before the shooting and until the shooting?

Mr. KRISS. Well, we had been kind of walking over here watching the door over----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say "over here"----

Mr. KRISS. In the garage area. I had already put some men out here on both sides.

Mr. HUBERT. You had already put some men out here on both sides? Out on the Commerce Street side?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; and on the Main.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the Main Street side.

Mr. KRISS. And we were told by the officers to move all the press back over this way, keep them on this side [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you see, you have to explain what you mean by "this side," because----

Mr. KRISS. Well, that is----

Mr. HUBERT. Because someone reading a transcript of it later won't be able to tell.

Mr. KRISS. That is the west side then.

Mr. HUBERT. West side of the ramp, is that correct?

Mr. KRISS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand you to say that you had been instructed to keep all the press----

Mr. KRISS. Yes, go ahead.

Mr. HUBERT. Out of the ramp area?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; against the west wall only, all the rail--the area in here, to keep the press back over here and [indicating]----

Mr. HUBERT. Against the rail, or on the side?

Mr. KRISS. No; against the rail. If I just leave through--they were trying to clear this up right in here.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been in the position that we have marked "Position prior to shooting"?

Mr. KRISS. Possibly 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Ten or fifteen minutes?

Mr. KRISS. Something along there. Prior to that time, is when I had been walking right back in here [indicating]. Yes; and standing, I believe standing right over in here is where I placed myself.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I will put another circle and I am going to mark that "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"----

Mr. KRISS. "To----

Mr. HUBERT. "Shooting."

Mr. KRISS. Before being told to move the press on this side.

Mr. HUBERT. "Position of H. M. Kriss prior"--

Now, we have not--this is the west side. That is the east side--"of being told to keep the press back." In other words, your first position was really the position----

Mr. KRISS. Right here. That is it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's put a number--No. "1" in it. That was your first position?

Mr. KRISS. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And your second position----

Mr. KRISS. No. "2."

Mr. HUBERT. As No. "2." "Position of H. M. Kriss prior to shooting." And No. "3" is your position after the shooting? Right?

Mr. KRISS. That's it; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you had been in position No. "2" for about 10 minutes or so before they brought Oswald down?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing then?

Mr. KRISS. This way [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. Facing north?

Mr. KRISS. Facing north; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you see anything up there?

Mr. KRISS. No; all I saw was officers standing right at the head of this--this officer right there. With a shotgun.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was?

Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. But he is a regular?

Mr. KRISS. No reserves were armed. We are all unarmed. Unarmed and we don't carry arms.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in looking from your position No. "2." Up the ramp, were there--can you tell us whether there were a lot of people standing in that area?

Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't. I was just--had lots of people right in this area, right about here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about that northeast position?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir; all this area right in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. And where the down ramp going----

Mr. KRISS. All this area right on this side. That is where they were all standing.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can't say "this side," sir. While I understand it----

Mr. KRISS. The east side. The east side, excuse me. The east side. I keep forgetting she's taking it down.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all standing up against the rail?

Mr. KRISS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Right by the television cameras.

Mr. KRISS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?

Mr. KRISS. Right; that's right.

Mr. HUBERT. And then the ramp going from the basement down into the parking area?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; right.

Mr. HUBERT. And further along toward Commerce Street along that rail?

Mr. KRISS. Yes; there was a truck there, large truck here and another car pulled up right behind the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Both on the Commerce Street side?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Directing your attention again to whether there were a great number of people in an area that I am now marking with an oblong and going to call it "area A," and----

Mr. KRISS. That area there?

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. KRISS. Well, I couldn't be for sure, but it seemed that large amount people all around there and in here, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice an automobile being driven out of there just a few seconds or minutes----

Mr. KRISS. I can't recall that. I have tried to remember that and I can't recall that. No; I can't recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall it?

Mr. KRISS. No; I can remember something vaguely. I can remember doing something--they were moving a car, but I was mostly interested in watching the press, keeping everyone here. That was my job, keeping everyone on the east side of the rail.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, and you were looking more at the press than at the Main Street ramp?

Mr. KRISS. That's correct; that's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see this man when he came down?

Mr. KRISS. No; I didn't see--all I saw was just a blur right in here [indicating]. I didn't see--I was like everyone else, I was waiting here, and Oswald was right here [indicating], and that is where I looked at Oswald, and I was a curiosity seeker, I think, when I should have been watching--I was--learned my lesson.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. KRISS. Like everyone else, everyone else was watching that.

Mr. HUBERT. So, your attention was on Oswald?

Mr. KRISS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw a blur?

Mr. KRISS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the man at all?

Mr. KRISS. Right then? No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Ruby?

Mr. KRISS. Known, of him, saw him before in the papers and everything.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that?

Mr. KRISS. Well, they said--somebody said, "Don't let anyone out of the basement." And I ran across here and I thought I saw one of the captains, Arnett, and I saw him going down, and he was in the confusion and in that confusion here, and ran over there and saw that everything was all right, and they said, "Don't let anyone out."

Mr. HUBERT. And you positioned yourself right in the middle?

Mr. KRISS. Positioned myself in the middle and no one passed thereafter. That I can assure you of. That is the only thing I do know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Let me see if there's anything else.

All right. Is there anything else you would like to add that is not contained in the statement, or in your testimony today?

Mr. KRISS. No, sir; I just don't know a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. All right for now. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff prior to today?

Mr. KRISS. No; only the FBI is all.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never been interviewed by me prior to this deposition today?

Mr. KRISS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all and I certainly thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROY LEE LOWERY

The testimony of Roy Lee Lowery was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective R. L. Lowery, Dallas Police Department. Mr. Lowery, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order in the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lowery. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, Mr. Lowery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the death and the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice by the Commission prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. LOWERY. I will waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LOWERY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Mr. LOWERY. Roy Lee Lowery.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Mr. LOWERY. Thirty-two years of age.

Mr. HUBERT. Your residence?

Mr. LOWERY. 838 West Church in Grand Prairie.

Mr. HUBERT. Texas?

Mr. LOWERY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that just outside of the Dallas area?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; it is in Dallas County. It is on the west side.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. LOWERY. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LOWERY. Oh, approximately 9-1/2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What specific position do you hold in the detective department?

Mr. LOWERY. I'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police department, criminal division.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. LOWERY. Capt. Frank Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is next up the line?

Mr. LOWERY. I believe it is M. W. Stevenson.

Mr. HUBERT. And then Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry?

Mr. LOWERY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have read----

Mr. LOWERY. Now, if you will start with Mr. Bookhout's----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this report in.

Mr. LOWERY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have read three documents which I have previously handed you to read, and I want to mark the three of them now for identification, and then we will talk about each one.

Mr. LOWERY. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. I am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of one page, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, indicating that the original may be signed by you, and I am identifying it as follows, by marking upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5081. Deposition of R. L. Lowery, and signing my name below it." As to the second document, consisting of two pages, and purporting to be a report of an interview by--of you by FBI Agent Bookhout, on November 24, 1963, and I am marking that document along the right margin as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5082. Deposition of R. L. Lowery." I am signing my name below that on the first page of that document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner on the second page of that document. Finally a document purporting to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 23, 1963, consisting of five pages, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5083, deposition of R. L. Lowery," and I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second page, third page, fourth page and the fifth page.

Now, sir, I hand you the exhibit which has been marked 5081, being the letter to Chief Curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as it goes? Or do you have any other comments to make about it?

Mr. LOWERY. This is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I hand you an exhibit identified as 5082, consisting of two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any comments to make about it?

Mr. LOWERY. Yes, sir; I read it. Now, as to this one there is some changes to be made.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, I suggest you do this. If you want to make a change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you are beginning to read by using the word "quote", and when you get to the end of the sentence, "unquote". Then make your comment about the sentence, or if you have the whole paragraph you may do it that way.

Mr. LOWERY. Well, first one, quote Lowery----

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