Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mrs. GARNER. That's all I ever saw him do. To say if he ever went out or anything like that, he would go back and forth, catch the bus and go, and didn't stay long and come back. How many times he went out at night or anything like that, I don't know. I really couldn't tell you because I wasn't on that side. The few times I did see him I just happened to be out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about him wearing a bathing suit.

Mrs. GARNER. That's all he always wore, all the time. Always he had thongs on and yellow shorts, bathing trunks, and nothing on top walking around the yard like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Also the Commission has been informed that Oswald spent a considerable amount of time spraying bugs or insects of one sort or another.

Mrs. GARNER. He did. He done that, yes. He was always around the back of the house where the bathroom window was, spraying some sort, and the screen porch he would spray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him about this spraying activity of his?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your husband did?

Mrs. GARNER. No; he didn't. I don't guess he did; he never said anything about it, but there were plenty of ants and I guess that is why he was spraying. They always had a lot of ants, you know, and roaches. I know they had a lot of roaches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Cockroaches?

Mrs. GARNER. In that apartment, when they left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain to you about them?

Mrs. GARNER. No. We never had them before he moved. Whenever we used to spray, we had the pest control, but when he moved out they had plenty of them. They left the place filthy, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. The place was dirty when he left?

Mrs. GARNER. Was it? The icebox was broken, the freezer door was broken off, the stove was broken, the mattress was ruined.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was wrong with the mattress?

Mrs. GARNER. I guess the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether his wife, Marina, liked the apartment?

Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. She never did say anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never did say anything about it?

Mrs. GARNER. I never did talk to her about any apartment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself personally see when this station wagon left?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see it.

Mr. LIEBELER. It arrived late in September 1963?

Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see when it left; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the last time you saw the station wagon, please?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, whatever day that was, Sunday or Monday, whenever they left. It was about that morning. Like I said, early that morning they was packing it up, and then later on through the day between 10 and 11 I looked out there and it was gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would be either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or 23? Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not exactly positive which it was?

Mrs. GARNER. I am not sure whether it was Sunday or Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is pretty sure it was Monday.

Mrs. GARNER. He is sure it was Monday; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d of September.

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no recollection that is contrary to that; is that correct?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave, when he finally left the apartment?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know when he left?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, I figure he left that same night, whatever day that wagon left, myself. I don't think he come back. He might have come back in that apartment to get his stuff, whatever he had. I don't think he stayed there that night at all, that's what I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband said in the discussion we had with him previously that he heard some noise in the apartment the night the station wagon left.

Mrs. GARNER. He might have heard him packing up stuff getting ready to leave. I don't think he come back after he left that night; I think he left that night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did say he thought he heard these noises about 7 or 7:30 in the evening. Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you think the noise he heard was just the noise of Oswald getting his stuff and leaving?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; getting his stuff to get moving.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you never saw Oswald around the place at all after the day the station wagon left; is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody who lived in the neighborhood or in the apartment house when actually Oswald did leave? When we think about this question, let's first of all confine ourselves to the period of time prior to the assassination. Were you concerned about when Oswald left or how he left, prior to the time of the assassination?

Mrs. GARNER. You mean how he left?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is, did you talk to any of the neighbors or anybody in the building?

Mrs. GARNER. When they seen him leave?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they see him go?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I don't remember asking anybody, just figured that he had skipped and left that night. I didn't bother asking anybody about that, but later I was talking to Mr. Rogers, one of the tenants, and he said yes, he seen him leave about that time that evening, the bus was coming and he ran out with his suitcase.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the assassination, you talked to Mr. Rogers?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; definitely after.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you had been interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers--what is his full name; do you know?

Mrs. GARNER. Eric Rogers; is all I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live there?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers told you he saw Oswald the same evening that the station wagon left? Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he saw Oswald come out of the apartment house and run to catch a bus?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was about dark?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Rogers say how many suitcases Oswald had in his hand?

Mrs. GARNER. He just said with his suitcases or suitcase. I don't remember exactly what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to tell us whether Oswald had one suitcase, two suitcases with him when he left, or what?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Rogers didn't tell you?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't ask him. I don't remember. I don't remember, really if it was the same day the station wagon left or not he told me, and I don't think he even said that day it was, but it must have been right after that, you know, what night or the next day. I feel like it was that night. It must have been, because I know he didn't have any reason to stay around there any longer.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Rogers didn't specifically say it was the same day?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say what kind of luggage Oswald had?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Oswald with any suitcases of any kind?

Mrs. GARNER. I never was in the apartment. After they rented the apartment, I never went in the apartment.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw him outside with any luggage?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never saw what kind of luggage they were packing in the station wagon?

Mrs. GARNER. I saw boxes, but I never did see any luggage. I saw boxes, and baby beds and playpens and stuff like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember noticing any specific suitcase of any kind?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether Marina Oswald could speak English or not?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't think she could speak English at all. When I heard her on television say a few words, something like that, I was surprised because at home she never said anything. And another thing, she would nod, try to tell you hello when he wasn't there, but if he was there like they was sitting on the steps or something, or they would go through the drive and he was there, she wouldn't even look at you.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was more friendly and outgoing when Oswald wasn't there?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when he was there, she wouldn't have nothing to say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a rifle or gun of any kind in the apartment, or around the apartment?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or the station wagon, or just anywhere?

Mrs. GARNER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any reason to believe that Oswald had a rifle in his possession?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I never knew about that, never saw anything looked like a gun or anything like that. Like I said, they have asked me that so many times before, and they just packed this station wagon and if he had a gun I don't guess he put it where anybody could see it, and whatever was in the station wagon could have been, I mean anything with value, because they took a few days packing it to leave and it sat out there at night on the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Without locking, or do you know whether they locked the station wagon?

Mrs. GARNER. I don't know whether they locked it, but that don't do much good in this city. It don't do any good to lock your doors; what good does it do? I nail mine; that is better yet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with anybody besides Mr. Rogers whether or not Oswald left on the same day his wife did, or how he left?

Mrs. GARNER. Do you mean in the neighborhood?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. GARNER. I never talked too much to them, you know, unless I might be talking to Miss Eames next door and said he might have left that same night or something like that, but that's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Mrs. Eames?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Doris E. Eames?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. She lives at 4907 Magazine Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; right next to Oswald's apartment, in other words, and their kitchen windows was even to each other, across from each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald get any mail that you know of while he lived in the apartment 4907 or 4905 Magazine Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of. I never went around the mailboxes to find out that, never went around the mailbox to see what kind of mail, and after he left I checked the mailbox and my husband found a light and gas bill and sent it back to the company.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you said Oswald actually owed you about 2 weeks' rent when they left. Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Fifteen days, something like that, 2 or 3 weeks. I think it was 3 weeks' rent, because the last time when I sent my husband to see about the rent, I told him it was going to be 3 weeks, and, "You know he isn't going to catch up with that and pay another month's rent and stay here by himself."

Mr. LIEBELER. He moved in on the 9th of May; is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he left about the 22d of September or the 23d?

Mrs. GARNER. About the 22d or 23d.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he would have had to pay up the rent through the 9th of September?

Mrs. GARNER. Through the 9th, the 9th of September; that was when.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the rent came due again?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he paid his rent for the month?

Mrs. GARNER. You see, he was paid up to the 9th of September.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was paid through the 9th of September?

Mrs. GARNER. Right; and after the 9th he started on another month but never paid me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He left owing rent for the period from September 9 until the time he left?

Mrs. GARNER. The 24th or 23d, whatever date it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Louis N. Rico?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I think that is my tenant in the back in the detached apartment, away in the back downstairs, Louis Rico.

Mr. LIEBELER. They don't live there any more?

Mrs. GARNER. No; they moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether they had anything to do with Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. No; he never did talk to him. Oswald wouldn't bother with nobody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he could drive?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I couldn't answer that. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no way of knowing where Oswald went when he left your apartment house, do you?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Oswald intended to stay on in the apartment, at least that is what he had told your husband?

Mrs. GARNER. That's what I figured all the time, and every time I passed he was sitting on the porch, or either sitting by the lamp inside of the living room when it was dark, reading.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you remember about Oswald? Is there anything else you know about him that the Commission ought to know that I have not asked you about?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, like I say, every time I talk, I tried to think, and there is really nothing. I just usually always stay by myself and never go to the door unless I have to. The only thing is--I did hear a couple of times like they were arguing and she would be crying. I guess they were arguing, I couldn't understand the Russian language and she would be crying, and that went on a couple of hours at a time, and I figured that was family trouble. I couldn't even understand what they were saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they seem to have more family trouble than most people, or do you think they got along fairly well?

Mrs. GARNER. It is just about twice I heard it in the months they were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression----

Mrs. GARNER. I didn't think they was arguing, because when they talk that language it sounds like they are arguing all the time to me, but those two times she happened to be crying, and I could hear her raising her voice higher and him too. He was just abrupt.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have the impression they were having any particular difficulty with their marriage, did you?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't seem to have----

Mrs. GARNER. It didn't seem that way to me. You never did see them together in the daytime. I saw them once when they left for that weekend, and that is the only time they had left there together.

Mr. LIEBELER. She stayed at home pretty much?

Mrs. GARNER. She stayed home all the time, and I see her coming from the grocery store once in awhile.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe I have any more questions at this time, Mrs. Garner, if you can't think of anything else you would like to add. I think we can terminate the deposition. I do want to thank you for the patience that you and your husband have shown to me and for the cooperation you have given us in coming down here and testifying. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you both very much.

Mrs. GARNER. I am only too glad to do it. Anything else we can do, it would be all right.

AFFIDAVIT OF JESSE J. GARNER

The following affidavit was executed by Jesse J. Garner on May 5, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF LOUISIANA, Parish of Orleans, ss:

Jesse J. Garner, being duly sworn says:

1. My name is Jesse James Garner. I was born July 17, 1908, in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. I have resided in New Orleans for the last 52 years.

2. I am presently employed as a cab driver for Toye Brothers and have been so employed for the last twenty years.

3. My wife and I reside at 4911 Magazine Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, where we have resided continuously for the last four years.

4. Number 4911 Magazine Street consists of one-half of a house located at 4905-11 Magazine Street. The other half of the house is divided into two apartments which go by the number 4905 and 4907 Magazine Street.

5. Lee Harvey Oswald occupied the apartment known as 4905 Magazine Street from May 9, 1963, to on or about September 23, 1963. He paid a rental of $65.00 per month for the apartment, which was furnished, and was directly responsible to the utility company for payment of gas and electric bills.

6. I first talked to Oswald about a month after he moved into the apartment. I spoke to him about payment of the rent, because he was a few days late in paying his rent for the second month he lived in the apartment. He told me he would have the rent in a few days. I later learned that he did pay the rent to my wife shortly thereafter.

7. Oswald appeared to be a quiet sort of man and I did not talk to him about anything other than the rent that first time that I met him.

8. Sometime after that, my wife called to my attention that Oswald had attached to the screen of his porch two hand circulars which read something to the effect that the United States should lay hands off Cuba. These circulars were about 4" by 6".

9. I have examined a photograph which has been marked as Exhibit No. 1 to this affidavit and state that the photograph shows Oswald handing out a circular which is of the same kind he had attached to the screen of his porch.

10. I asked Oswald to remove the circulars and he asked me who "rejects" to them. I told him that I objected to them and that I was the only person who had to object to them. Oswald then took them down without further comment and the subject was never mentioned between us again.

11. The next and last time I talked to Oswald was on Sunday morning, September 22, 1963, when I noticed he had almost finished packing a station wagon with his family's personal belongings. I asked him if he was moving, since I was concerned that he then owed about 15 days rent. Oswald told me that he was not leaving but that his wife was going to Texas to have her baby after which she was going to return to New Orleans.

12. I did not see the station wagon leave, but I believe it left for Texas sometime on Monday morning, September 23, 1963, but it could have left sometime on Sunday morning.

13. I didn't pay too much attention to the station wagon or to what Oswald was doing, because I thought he was going to remain in the apartment, as he had said.

14. I never saw Oswald again after my conversation with him on Sunday morning, but I thought I heard him in his apartment during the evening (about 7:00 to 7:30 p.m.) of the day on which the station wagon had left, i.e., either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or 23, 1963.

15. I did not see or hear any activity in the apartment on the day after the station wagon left for Texas. The next day which I believe would have been Wednesday, September 25, 1963, I entered Oswald's apartment and found that he had left and taken all of his belongings with him.

16. I never personally observed anyone visit Oswald or his family during the time they lived at the above address.

17. Oswald never seemed to respond to greetings from me and seemed to be an unfriendly type of person.

Signed on May 5, 1964, at New Orleans, La.

(S) Jesse J. Garner, JESSE J. GARNER.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD LEROY HULEN

The testimony of Richard Leroy Hulen was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Will you please stand up and be sworn?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. HULEN. I do.

Mr. JENNER. State your name, please.

Mr. HULEN. Richard Leroy Hulen.

Mr. JENNER. And you are connected with the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?

Mr. HULEN. I am the associate director of the health club.

Mr. JENNER. And you are appearing in lieu of whom?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. John F. Campbell.

Mr. JENNER. And he is the head of the health club, I take it?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And at present he is out of the city?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. The YMCA that we are talking about is located where?

Mr. HULEN. At 605 South Ervay in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. We are in the Federal Court House. How far away is that from here?

Mr. HULEN. Two blocks.

Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. Hulen, that I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, that the Commission was authorized pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution 137, as the group to investigate the tragedy of November 22, 1963, of the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, shortly after the adoption of the Senate joint resolution, appointed the Commission and authorized it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses.

We have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are particularly interested in a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the YMCA that you have identified. Would you describe your duties and those of Mr. Campbell and describe the health club, and I should also add we are interested in a man by the name of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein, and I may ask you some questions about him as well.

Mr. HULEN. Well, of course, Mr. Campbell is in charge of the department. He does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders supplies and supervises the operation in general and I take my orders from him.

Mr. JENNER. You are his assistant?

Mr. HULEN. I am the assistant.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you been associated with the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Well, since 1945.

Mr. JENNER. And during--you were doing this work at the downtown YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the health club is what sort of activity?

Mr. HULEN. The health club is a businessmen's club. We have seven masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and I could go on and on.

Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. You have businessmen who come in, do they join the club or pay a fee?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; we have a yearly membership fee.

Mr. JENNER. If some guest who is a guest of the YMCA, wants to have a rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee?

Mr. HULEN. Not without paying a fee. He is a member if he lives in the dormitory--he is a member of the YMCA, but not of the health club. So, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices?

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Mr. Davis off the record, pertaining to facilities and services at the YMCA.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Back on the record. Referring to these yearly members, do you become acquainted with them?

Mr. HULEN. Most of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted during your history with the YMCA with a man in town here known as Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a member of your club?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. And you have produced here for me a photostatic copy of what is entitled and identified for the record, "Membership application," and it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of a membership application for one Jack Ruby. From where did you obtain that exhibit?

Mr. HULEN. From the membership office.

Mr. JENNER. And this card, of which the document I have in my hands is a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photo copy of the original of the membership application and card which is maintained and is presently in the possession of the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to have you explain some of the things here for me--on the form, which has been marked Hulen Exhibit No. 1, under the printed designation, "Firm name," appears as typed, "Club Vegas," sir. Would you explain what that is?

Mr. HULEN. I think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his business address.

Mr. JENNER. That is the business address of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein. Club Vegas is some kind of a club here in Dallas?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, or at least it was at the time this application was made out?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. And is still operating, incidentally.

Mr. JENNER. And it says opposite, "Type of membership,"--there appear two initials, "SH" what do they signify?

Mr. HULEN. Special health.

Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?

Mr. HULEN. That means all of the facilities will be available to that member except the massages.

Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of the card there appears the heading, "Membership account," and then there are columns in which there are long hand entries. These columns are headed, "Date due, amount, payments, card," and some entries. For example, for purposes of explanation, the first entry on the reverse side on this form I have described under "date due," appears 9-10-58. I take it that is a date meaning September 10, 1958?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the next column which is headed "Amount," there appears $65. Then under "Payments," that column is split in two--the left hand one reads and is headed by the word "Date," and the entry there is 9-2. I assume that is September 2, but no year, and then under the column headed, "Amount," appears $30. Would you explain that type entry?

Mr. HULEN. Well, at the time, in 1958, our membership fee for the special health club membership was $67, and there is a $2 cash saving if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get our amount $65, and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is, the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in 30 days, but apparently this wasn't paid in 30 days, but he still received benefit of cash payment.

Mr. JENNER. Does that form indicate that the health fee was paid?

Mr. HULEN. Oh, yes; yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. It was paid--on what date?

Mr. HULEN. It was 11-12-62, the last payment. The first payment was made on 9-10-58, wait a minute, I am wrong. It was then when he joined, the first payment was 9-20. In other words, that 9-10 was their billing date and he joined on 9-2 and they billed him on 9-10, and his second payment which was supposed to have been paid in 30 days was paid on 11-12-58. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with this. I'm just groping here myself. This is handled in another office. You will notice that the date due here was 9-10-59, again, you see, and this will denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he wasn't active, as you will notice there.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed it. Now, it would appear that the first two columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the second set of columns under the heading "Payments," indicates payments that were made?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the 10th of September 1958, in the amount of $65, and then in the next two columns that he paid on September 2, $30, and he paid on November 12, $35 or a total then by that time of $65, that had been billed or was to have been paid by September 10?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He actually completed his payment on November 12?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then, the next entry appears to be one of $65 for the following year, that is for 1959, due on November 1, 1959, and then there is an entry under the "Payments," column of the receipt of $65, on the 22d of October, that is, there was a prepayment there in 1959.

Then, for 1962, the "Due Date," was April 20, 1962--$74. Apparently your fee went up?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And there are entries of two payments, one a $25 on the 18th of April 1962, and the second of $49, on the 3d of August 1962, so he was then paid up?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And for 1963, there is an entry of a payment due on the 1st of June 1963, of $30 and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment on the 23d of May 1963, of $60.

What does that indicate, that is, here for 1962, he was a $74 member and in 1963, he appears to be only a $30 member?

Mr. HULEN. Oh, I've got it now. If a person for some reason cannot take out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we would let him have a 3-month membership which would explain the $30. At that date he was on the 3-month membership.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. HULEN. A short-term membership, we call it.

Mr. JENNER. At the bottom of this form there is written, "Do not renew," 11-28-63, meaning November 28, 1963. What does that mean?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told the stenographer in the membership office that if Ruby ever came back for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and she wrote that on there just for her own information. Actually, it was a joke.

Mr. JENNER. If he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal would have been granted him?

Mr. HULEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. It would not have been?

Mr. HULEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that?

Mr. HULEN. I don't know, Mr. Urquhart made the statement that it is, it was----

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll try to bring that out, is the entry "Do not renew," of November 28, 1963, is that something in jest?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. In my opinion, I think he was just being facetious.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, Mr. Ruby did not renew his membership?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. "J.C.", I assume is John Campbell?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the initial entry fee, there appears in writing, "Wants to pay up in month's time. Okay, J.C." That indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when Ruby joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay up.

Mr. HULEN. I think that means that if he made the complete payment of the yearly membership in 2 payments within 30 days, that he would receive benefit of the discount.

Mr. JENNER. I see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within 30 days, his payment, first payment was made on the 2d of September of $30, and his second payment of $35, was made on November 12, 1958, so you gave him the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the 30 days?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that explains----

Mr. JENNER. So, he had a full year $65 membership for the year 1958, that is, 1 year from the time he joined which was September 10, 1958, and he rejoined at the same rate on--$65, a year, on November 1, 1959, and then in 1962, he had a $74 membership, which was really an increase in your charge?

Mr. HULEN. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. For 1 year commencing October 1, 1959--but he didn't get around to paying it, apparently until the following spring, which was the $25, on the 18th of April and the $49, on the 3d of August, and then on June 1, 1963, he took out a 3-month or a 90-day short term membership?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; a short-term membership.

Mr. JENNER. That expired on September 1st of that year, is that correct?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. Did Ruby ever live at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the records of the YMCA have been checked to determine or confirm that?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. But as--at least as far as your personal recollection is concerned, you do not recall his ever having been a guest in what you call the dormitory?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you recall Mr. Ruby using the Health Club facilities?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do--very well.

Mr. JENNER. And do you ever recall having any contact with or seeing a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the suggestion of Mr. Sorrels, of the Secret Service, have you caused an examination to be made of the guest record of the YMCA to determine whether a person by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald or Lee Oswald was ever a guest at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. I wouldn't be in a position to know--I'm not familiar enough with that and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it so I don't know what has been done or what has been requested.

Mr. JENNER. You have brought to me today a longhand sheet which appears on ruled notepaper and is what purports to be a list of registrations for one Lee Oswald during the year 1962, and another entry, one for the year 1963, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. From whom and from what source did you obtain this document?

Mr. HULEN. From Mr. McRee's secretary, who is the resident manager.

Mr. JENNER. McRee is the resident manager?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. McRee is the resident manager.

Mr. JENNER. And his secretary furnished you this slip of paper?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she advise you from what source she obtained these entries?

Mr. HULEN. I made the entries myself from her records of the payments.

Mr. JENNER. I understand--you prepared this and it is in your handwriting?

Mr. HULEN. That is correct; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain the information on this piece of paper?

Mr. HULEN. From her receipts of payment for room rent.

Mr. JENNER. And those are records that are kept by the YMCA in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you personally examined them?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you find, when you personally examined those receipt records, any receipts in the name of a person named Lee Oswald.

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw on the receipts the name "Lee Oswald"?

Mr. HULEN. I sure did. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And then you have listed under the first heading of "Lee Oswald," a series of dates, October 15, October 16, October 17, and October 18, 1962, in each instance. Then, in parentheses following those entries in the the same sequences appears the name Burge and the name Burgess and the name Burge again and then the name Barker. Following those in the same descending sequence are serial numbers: "L-18198." In your last column and in the same sequence are dollar figures: "3.25, 2.25, 2.25 and again 2.25." Now, would you explain those entries, please?

Mr. HULEN. Well, he checked in on 10-15-62.

Mr. JENNER. That is Lee Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. Lee Oswald check in on 10-15-62. The desk clerk at that time was a Mr. Burge, and the L-18198, was the number of the receipt which was given Lee Oswald, and the amount of $3.25, was $2.25 for the night's lodging and $1 deposit on the room key, which is refunded when it is returned to the front desk. Shall I go on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And then there is an additional set of entries below those we have now described and they read, "Lee Oswald, [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif.," and the next line October 3, 1963----Barker?

Mr. HULEN. Barker was the desk clerk, and the M-15593 was the number of the receipt and $3.25 was the room fee and a $1 deposit on the key.

Mr. JENNER. Now, those entries record the fact then that Oswald was a guest at the YMCA October 15th through October 19th, both inclusive, and again on October 3, 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Through October 18th, I believe it is, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. It shows he was a guest at the YMCA October 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19, of 1962, and again on October 3 and to October 4, of 1963?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the examination of the receipts for lodging of guests at the YMCA reveal only those entries you have now described and are listed on this sheet of paper with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. The years--during the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had he been a guest and registered in on any other occasion during the years 1962 and 1963, would there have been and would there be now a registration entry and a receipt for payment of the character you have described?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I am sure there would be.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we would like the YMCA to furnish us photostatic copies of those five receipts just as you have furnished us a photostatic copy of Mr. Ruby's membership application.

Mr. HULEN. I would be glad to do it.

Mr. JENNER. We would appreciate it very much.

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And if we can have those this afternoon, we would like it.

Mr. HULEN. I'm sure we can arrange it and give them to you. Shall I bring them right here?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do and we will give them to Miss Oliver and she can incorporate them in the transcript. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 2.

To be best of your recollection and drawing on whatever knowledge you have, you don't recall anybody by that name, Lee Oswald, ever having used the Health Club facilities?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. And you know Jack Ruby well enough--do you recall this person Lee Oswald ever having been in the company of Jack Ruby at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of Lee Oswald on television and in newspapers and magazines?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And that person is clear in your mind--do you recall his physical characteristics?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. So that you are able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty, so far as you are concerned, that you never saw that person using the Health Club facilities and you never saw him in the company of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HULEN. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what kind of a fellow Ruby was?

Mr. HULEN. Well, I found----

Mr. JENNER. In your general impression?

Mr. HULEN. I found Jack Ruby to be friendly and courteous and a well-behaved person. He seemed to have a lot of enthusiasm about anything that he liked. He generated a lot of enthusiasm around that. For instance, any athletic events or sports he discussed--he discussed that with the other members, which is the usual topic of well-known weight lifters, for instance, there are several--Reeves and Stanko and I can name several of them.

Mr. JENNER. Was Ruby a weight lifter? Did he dabble at that?

Mr. HULEN. Well, I should define weight lifting and body building. Weight lifting is competing, like you have in the Olympics, which is heavy lifting. In other words, you go to your maximum. Now, in body building, you take a minimum amount of weight and exercise longer--in other words, if you work with the heavy weights you can't work as long with the heavy weights as you can with the lighter weights, and Ruby was more of a body builder. In other words, he worked with the lighter weights over a longer period of time. In other words, he was not after, in my opinion, he wasn't after a large body or bulging muscle, he just wanted to stay in a good general physical condition.

It wasn't necessary for me to set up any kind of a program for him. He had had experience in the past and he knew pretty well what he wanted to do, so actually there was very little, if any, supervision on my part. He used the facilities and behaved very well and I found him to be a nice person to talk to--to visit with.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. Leave the deposition open for the moment, Miss Oliver, because Mr. Hulen will return with the photostatic copies of those records and we will close his deposition when we take care of that.

Mr. HULEN. Now, I will be tied up until about 1. Would 1:30 or 2 o'clock be agreeable with you?

Mr. JENNER. 2 o'clock is fine.

(At this point the witness Hulen left the deposing room, the proceedings of the deposition to be resumed at 2 p.m., of this same date, April 1, 1964, and were resumed as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen has kindly returned this afternoon with copies of the receipts to which he made reference in his testimony and of which he supplied a longhand list on ruled notebook paper, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. Now that we have the originals, we can substitute them. They are five in number, and I identified them as entitled "Receipts Young Men's Christian Association of Dallas Downtown Branch." They are signed respectively by "Burge [spelling] B-u-r-g-e" and "Barker." We will work them in order of dates, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 6, and the receipt of October 3 as Hulen Exhibit No. 7. I take it they were desk clerks?

Mr. HULEN. The desk clerks.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Burge registered in Mr. Oswald on October 15, 1962, is that correct?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the receipt shows the room number, room No. 415. Does that indicate the room to which he was assigned?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then there is $2.25, and underneath, opposite that, "Deposit--$1, total $3.25." And that represents the charge for the room and key deposit you testified about this morning?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. The next one is dated October 16, 1962, also--name: Lee Oswald, same room, $2.25, initialed, however--it looks like "HB", or is this "W. Burgess."

Mr. HULEN. Correct; Burgess.

Mr. JENNER. He is also a registration clerk or desk clerk?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next is dated the 17th of October 1962, in the name of Lee Oswald, the same room number, $2.25, signed by Mr. Burge, whom we have already identified. The next is dated October 18, 1962, the same name--Lee Oswald, same room number, same amount, but this time signed by just one word "Barker." Is this a Mr. Barker or Miss Barker?

Mr. HULEN. Yes--Mr. Barker.

Mr. JENNER. Is he also a room clerk or registration clerk?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; he is.

Mr. JENNER. And the last in this series is dated October 3, 1963, and in this instance it is in the name of Lee H. Oswald, and it shows an address, whereas, none of the other of the first four had an address, and the address is listed here as Toro [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif. [Spelling] C-a-l.

I notice something on the first of the series which I notice again on this one of October 3, 1963, which is the printing on the line entitled, "Membership fees," and there is the word written in longhand, "service." That's true of the first and the last of these receipts--what does that indicate?

Mr. HULEN. That indicates that he was a serviceman and that, in my opinion, that waives the membership fee.

Mr. JENNER. The room number on the October 3 receipt is 601. That, as in the case of the others, indicates the room to which he was assigned?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On this visit on October 3?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That line says, "Room 601 to 10/4," meaning October 4, I assume.

Mr. HULEN. I imagine--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. $2.25 is shown for the room and a dollar for the key deposit, which I take it means he was charged $2.25 for that Room 601, for 1 day or 1 night, plus a dollar to cover the key deposit?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think that concludes Mr. Hulen's deposition. I offer Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3 to 7, both inclusive. And we may close the deposition at this point.

Mr. Hulen, I didn't mention this this morning, but you may read over your deposition when Miss Oliver has completed it and if you will call in to the U.S. Attorney's Office here, Mr. Barefoot Sanders or his secretary will know when it is ready for you to read it.

Mr. HULEN. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And if you have any corrections, we would like to have them and then you sign the deposition, or you may waive the signature now, if you wish.

Mr. HULEN. All right, I will waive the signature.

TESTIMONY OF COLIN BARNHORST

The testimony of Colin Barnhorst was taken at 11:40 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Please stand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. BARNHORST. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which was authorized to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and specified its powers pursuant to the legislation I have just identified to you. The duties of the Commission are to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22nd of November 1963.

And that entails our inquiry into various facts and circumstances and incidents, some of them involving a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. We understand that Mr. Oswald was a guest at the YMCA here in downtown Dallas, and we would like to ask you a question or two in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way?

Mr. BARNHORST. Twenty-one.

Mr. JENNER. Are you employed by the downtown YMCA here in Dallas?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is located where?

Mr. BARNHORST. 605 North Ervay.

Mr. JENNER. When did your employment commence?

Mr. BARNHORST. October 14.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. BARNHORST. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. State the nature of that employment and your hours?

Mr. BARNHORST. Desk clerk and mainly checking in and out guests--that is the primary duty and my duties involve making change and the usual reports and things like that. My hours are from 4 to midnight 4 nights a week.

Mr. JENNER. 4 in the afternoon until midnight 4 nights a week?

Mr. BARNHORST. Then on Friday night--midnight to Saturday morning 8 a.m. every week, and every other week from midnight to 8 a.m., on Thursday night, so I alternate 6 days and 5 days. The particular week of all this I had worked Thursday night also.

Mr. JENNER. Were you on duty at any time so as to bring to your attention the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was or had become a guest at the YMCA?

Mr. BARNHORST. You mean at the time----

Mr. JENNER. At the time.

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I wasn't working there when he was a guest. I know when he was there, but I wasn't working there.

Mr. JENNER. That's right. Have you personally examined the records of the YMCA in that respect?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And those records are of what character?

Mr. BARNHORST. They are a daily report on transients in and out with permanents in and out and the number of rooms, and a copy goes to the residence manager and a copy stays at the household and a copy is sent to and, well, it is placed on our desk copy.

Mr. JENNER. And have you examined those records for both the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. BARNHORST. No; only the month of October 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Only the month of October 1963. In examining that month did you examine each day of the month, that is, the records relating to each day of that month?

Mr. BARNHORST. Originally--yes, and I have looked at them also, actually, I guess for September, because I had stayed there one night and I had looked back to see which room I was in and I was just curious and in looking back--later on--I saw there was a Lee H. Oswald. He was in room 601, because I looked at it last night after the man called me and it is still on the desk.

Mr. JENNER. He occupied the room 601 when?

Mr. BARNHORST. Until the morning or early part of the afternoon of the 4th of October. I say that because the clerk who was on was Eva Marshall. Her name was beside the checkout. So, she was the one who would have checked him out and she works on the day shift and at that time she was working day shift and that would have been about 10 days, I guess, before I went to work there and she was filling in there because the clerk had quit, which is why they hired me. I don't know who the clerk was. I only found the checkout, I didn't ever see the check-in--I think I did see it one time. And I think it was October 3, the day before.

Mr. JENNER. The check-in was October 3?

Mr. BARNHORST. I remember that from sometime ago, but I just happened to see the checkout.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what kind of records you keep--you keep a receipt?

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, maybe I can describe these when he checks in to see step by step what happens, because there is a little blue card with a stub on it and we call this a transient register card. He fills in his name and the phone number and membership, if any, and a number of other details, if it has anything to do with such as when his membership expires, if he is in the service, his service number or some other things, and then we fill out a triplicate receipt for his room rent. In this case he paid for 1 night and then we give him a receipt and a receipt stays in the register and a receipt goes in the drawer and, of course, we fill out the rest of the stub--the receipt number, the amount paid, and we fill out his name and his room number on the stub and the price of it and so forth for the operator to put his name up on the board, and he came in fairly early on the 3d, because the operator----

Mr. JENNER. What is the board you mentioned something now about? You mentioned something new.

Mr. BARNHORST. This is a board we have for locating anyone in the building at that time, who is staying in the building. It is a PBX machine and is in the nature of a board up on the wall and it has several sections. It is a flip-type board and you put a little narrow slip of paper with their name and room number on it. That's for the telephone operator.

Now, he must have come in fairly early on the 3d, if he came in in the evening, because in fact, he did come in in the evening. Mr. Barker checked him in because I know the evening operator typed his name in and so that would place him coming in in the evening sometime before 10 o'clock, because that's about when she leaves, and after that they are typed up by the--either the night clerk or the next operator in the morning. Then, in the evening, it is put on a ledger sheet and we have two types--we have one for the permanent guests for their personal account, and for just general transients that pass through, we have a group account. We just put the last name and the amount paid and whether or not they paid a membership fee. And, I might mention he didn't pay a membership fee when he came in. There is only two ways a person can pay that and that is either be in the service or have a membership card and I don't think he was registered as a member. He may have tried to pass himself off as a serviceman, but that's just in passing--that's not on the record--but--then, we make this daily report which is what I saw his name on last night. That is a long sheet and it has a list of room numbers in numerical order and then the name of the person who checked into that room that day and anybody who checked out of the room that day, and any transfers.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen, when he testified a few moments ago, testified with respect to his having checked over receipts showing payment for lodging and he assembled a list and he is going to obtain photostatic copies of them and return them this afternoon and return with them. Are you returning to the YMCA after you leave here?

Mr. BARNHORST. No, I can--it's just across the street.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I would appreciate it if you would speak with Mr. Hulen who made copies of the entries from the records--I would like to have in addition to the copies of the receipts, photostatic copies of the registration card you have mentioned.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a check-in card, did you call it a check-in card?

Mr. BARNHORST. A transient register card, and do you want the daily report?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. BARNHORST. How about this one in our ledger book?

Mr. JENNER. I would like that as well.

Mr. BARNHORST. Because the clerk would be Mr. Michaels, depending on what night of the week it was. Probably Mr. Michaels--chances are it was he that made out that report. He is not with us now, but he didn't report any membership fee paid at the time.

Mr. JENNER. And that would indicate that none was paid?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a difference in charge or rate for a room depending upon whether you are a member of the YMCA or a serviceman?

Mr. BARNHORST. From what I know, Mr. Oswald--he should have paid $3.75 or $2.25 for a room, 50 cents for membership and $1 for the key deposit. No doubt he paid the room rent because that's on the record and the key deposit or else he wouldn't have gotten a room, but the key deposit isn't listed in the ledger at all. It is a separate account because we refund it and in the ledger we list memberships and we separate that from the key deposits. Because it is in a separate account. Now, I didn't see any membership fee by his name.

Mr. JENNER. But does an ex-serviceman receive this reduced rate?

Mr. BARNHORST. Not if he has been out a minute or more, at least I never give it to him. Now, I always check the ID cards. Mr. Barker, I believe, does not, but of course any serviceman could rattle off his service number 20 years after he got out and I found that out quite early so I have been checking them and I have had several fellows who were trying to get away with it--they usually had forgotten it or say they would be back in a minute and they don't come back and it was embarrassing to me, and Mr. Barker has been there a long time. He wouldn't write up a membership unless he was a serviceman.

Mr. JENNER. These registration cards show----

Mr. BARNHORST. They don't show which one it is.

Mr. JENNER. Would they show the address that the guests gave?

Mr. BARNHORST. We always ask for an address, try to get an address from them. Occasionally we don't. Occasionally they just sort of don't put it on there and you say, "Well, I would like to have an address on there." And they will say, "I plan to stay here." It should show an address on there of some kind.

Mr. JENNER. And among the papers I have asked to have photostated will that appear?

Mr. BARNHORST. If he gave an address, it will be there. Now, I came across one fellow--I told a couple of the FBI men, because so many of them were over there to talk to me--there's always around the YMCA somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that he knew Lee in New Orleans. Now, he is a little character and his IQ matches his height. I'm not making personal opinions, you understand, but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. He did come by and he, I believe, stayed on the same floor, if I remember right.

Mr. JENNER. He was a guest?

Mr. BARNHORST. He was a permanent resident and he was one of these fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened to bounce in the same town all the time.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. BARNHORST. Joseph R. Hummel.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] H-u-m-m-e-l?

Mr. BARNHORST. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still a guest there?

Mr. BARNHORST. No; he moved out 2 or 3 months ago. We have a forwarding address, I believe because his mail isn't here any more--that would indicate a forwarding address. In fact, I believe I put the forwarding address in the box. It's over there and I can probably get it for you.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would do that and also give that to Mr. Hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to me.

Mr. BARNHORST. The night watchman over there told me one time--I mentioned "Little" Joe, or heard "Little" Joe talking about it one night and I wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and "Little" Joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he has been in New Orleans possibly about that time, so if I didn't know that, I would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right time. So, the FBI--I don't know whether they did anything about it or not, but I just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person around that I know of that remembers knowing Oswald or when he was there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it.

Apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures I have seen, he's like a hundred and one guys I have checked in over there, and the only reason I would watch him if I suspected he might be a homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we watch for them and try to see if they are going to--to see the people they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. I don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it has been talked about some.

Now, Mr. Barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have over there who the roof could fall in on--just so it didn't fall in over the part that was his desk--it wouldn't matter.

Mr. JENNER. It wouldn't matter to Barker?

Mr. BARNHORST. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still working there?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; he's about 79. He just lives and lets live. He checks them in and checks them out. Somehow, maybe it's better that way but I have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the other, about it.

Mr. JENNER. What hours does Barker have?

Mr. BARNHORST. He works the same hours I do--four to midnight except he works the three nights of the week that I don't and then works on Saturday and Sunday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. He and I share the weekend pretty well.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Barker checked in Oswald, according to your records?

Mr. BARNHORST. According to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. On those records?

Mr. BARNHORST. Right. And Eva Marshall is the one who checked him out, and I am personally pretty positive it was Mr. Barker because the telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barker signed the receipt of payment of $3.25, for this day on October 3 and 4?

Mr. BARNHORST. It was $3.25 then?

Mr. JENNER. It says $3.25.

Mr. BARNHORST. It should have been $3.25, you see.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Barker apparently charged him out on the 18th of October 1962, and he paid $2.25 for the last day of that 4-day stay in October 1962. Mr. Burge apparently checked him in because the receipt is signed by Mr. Burge, on the 15th of October.

Mr. BARNHORST. If they still do the same thing as they did then that would pinpoint the time when he came in. Mr. Burge relieves us in the evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that falls invariably between 5 and 7 because the cafeteria closes at 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. So, with Mr. Burge checking the man in, that would indicate that was at night or in the evening?

Mr. BARNHORST. In the evening.

Mr. JENNER. It would be sometime after 4 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNHORST. Sometime after 5, because he wouldn't come in until 5.

Mr. JENNER. And if Mr. Barker either checked somebody in or checked somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it?

Mr. BARNHORST. It depends on the day of the week. If it was on the weekend, it would be between 8 and 4. It would--if it was on a weekevening, I mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. That's presuming, of course, I'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as he does now. Of course I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, October 15, 1962, was a Monday?

Mr. BARNHORST. A Monday--well, then, that meant that he was very possibly working the shift I am working now, because he's off Monday and Tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. I am presuming that he wasn't working full time for us then.

Mr. JENNER. But if he did work, it was at night?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I'm pretty sure it would be. I don't think he was ever a day clerk.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I appreciate very much your coming in. You have been helpful and if you will relate to Mr. Hulen my desire for these additional records, photostatic copies, I would appreciate it. He said he was going to return about 2 o'clock this afternoon.

Mr. BARNHORST. All right.

Mr. JENNER. If he has those, you might speak with him--you see he is in the health department.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I don't know just how familiar he is with these records, but he may be able to explain them.

Mr. BARNHORST. He might and he might not be. He probably might not be familiar with the midnight reports. We make these daily reports where his name would be at the desk.

Mr. JENNER. Where the guest's name would appear at the desk?

Mr. BARNHORST. I beg your pardon?

Mr. JENNER. The name of the guest.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be, on a permanent form. We have a sheaf of papers--we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back, that goes back to Noah and if we had Noah, it would be on that. It had everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, I know of course it covers Oswald because I saw it on there.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw it?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact as late as last night?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; and I remember it was "Lee H." Now, it doesn't necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "Lee H." It could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the names for space.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that room 601, was the room he occupied on the 3d of October 1963, or was it the room he occupied in 1962?

Mr. BARNHORST. In 1963. I didn't see the one in 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in 1962--appears on these records you have described?

Mr. BARNHORST. Well; I would say it would be there unless it had been mutilated, and it's double checked by this Mr. McRee's secretary. He is the resident manager. It is double checked by her to see that all the stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them stuck together.

Mr. JENNER. I hesitate to press you but in view of your great familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at 2 o'clock, with Mr. Hulen.

Mr. BARNHORST. The photostats or the originals?

Mr. JENNER. The photostats.

Mr. BARNHORST. At 2 o'clock?

Mr. JENNER. Please, and you would be in a position to say that the photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and cards that you personally saw in the YMCA.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And if you will return, then I will not close your deposition now, but I will wait until 2 o'clock. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I realize this is just details that you have to have.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BARNHORST. I'll be back at 2 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.

(At this point the witness Barnhorst was excused from the deposing room and returned to same at 2 p.m. on this same day, April 1, 1964, and his deposition was continued as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Now, the balance of Mr. Barnhorst's deposition. You thought you might be able to obtain some records for me, Mr. Barnhorst.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; I was not able to obtain the blue card record. The FBI has that. That's the notice from Mr. McRee in his handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. "The FBI"--I am reading the note, "The FBI has the register cards for October 3, 1963. 1962 has been destroyed and we didn't keep them that long."

Mr. BARNHORST. This is a sample register card just for your own information.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient register card," which he described this morning. The card is entitled, "Transient register card." It has a stub entitled "Transient," and is light blue in color. We will mark it Hulen Exhibit No. 8.

Mr. BARNHORST. And that Toro, Calif.--I can identify that as a Marine base, I believe, you've probably heard the name of it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. BARNHORST. That would have appeared as an address on the blue card in October 1963, because that's the only place where Mr. Barker could have gotten the information.

Mr. JENNER. The receipt as to that occasion which I have described in the record, dated October 3, 1963, Lee H. Oswald, opposite the word "address," does have "Toro, Calif." So, in the normal course, I take it that that address would have been furnished to the registration clerk, and in this case, Mr. Barker?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be on the blue card.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; the blue card, the sample of which you have furnished me?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; also, Mr. McRee, the resident manager, says that Mr. Oswald produced an identification card, which is not hard to believe because he could have simply claimed to have lost it, his ID, when he was in the service, and had them make him another one and turn in the one he had made. I've seen fellows do that quite often. It is usually used for getting into PX's and USO's. This is from our ledger sheets, these I have here that are dated in the red left-hand column--everywhere there is a red checkmark on there, Mr. Oswald's name appears with a receipt number, the amount paid, his last name, also that he never paid any membership fees, but only the room fees.

Mr. JENNER. All right, you have handed me three cards from the original records of the downtown YMCA--they are three sheets.

Mr. BARNHORST. Written on both sides.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; written on both sides. I will mark them commencing with the earliest date on the exhibits, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, and 11. Would you identify the sheets? What are they, what kind of record?

Mr. BARNHORST. They are original ledger sheets for a transient guest and they are for the purpose of recording temporarily that the registrar has paid certain fees, because oftentimes they lose their receipts. They come down and we copy into this register--which is placed in a file, the amount that they paid. It is to guarantee that there is no confusion on the amount that is paid.

Mr. JENNER. And do these three register cards that I have in my hand cover all the month of October 1963?

Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; they don't.

Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry, do they cover the month of October 1962?

Mr. BARNHORST. I don't know whether they do--I doubt it--I think they would only cover the days before and after the time which you are interested in. They cover from October--October 15th through October 19th.

Mr. JENNER. May I call your attention to the last of the cards, which is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 11, the first entry on which is dated October 2, 1963, and that is for 1963, I'm sure?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; the 1962 cards, marked Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10, respectively, run from October 15th through October 19th.

Mr. JENNER. And they consist of two sheets?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In selecting these two sheets covering the 15th through the 19th, did you examine the ledger sheets for the balance of the month?

Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; Mr. McRee did.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McRee did so?

Mr. BARNHORST. And he told me those are the only cards that have Mr. Oswald's name on them.

Mr. JENNER. So, they were selected from the ledger cards for October 1963, those which had some entry thereon with respect to Oswald?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. It was done by the receipt numbers, also.

Mr. JENNER. It was doublechecked, so that there appears a--on the third line of the 1962, card commencing with October 15th, an entry under date of October 15th, reciting item No. 18198 and the name, "Oswald," and $2.25 and under the column, "balance," there is a strike line, and--indicating nothing due.

Mr. BARNHORST. Pardon me, that balance is not used for the purpose of something due. We substitute for that a membership fee. That strike line means he did not have a membership fee.

Mr. JENNER. There is a similar entry for the 16th, the 17th, and the 18th. These records then are for the recording of the fact that Oswald was a guest on those days, and that he paid the amounts of money recorded on the ledger sheets, which in turn correspond with the receipts which Mr. Hulen brought in?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The third of these ledger sheets--the first entry is opposite a date in 1963--October 2, 1963. I take it this ledger sheet was selected from among all of the ledger sheets for the month of October 1963, because it records the name Oswald on October 3, 1963, item No. 15593, $2.25--is that correct?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I have seen all of the ledger sheets for October 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the only one that has any entry on it with respect to Oswald?

Mr. BARNHORST. That's the only one.

Mr. JENNER. And that one entry that does have, corresponds with the receipt on that date, produced by Mr. Hulen?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. May we have these photostated and then returned to you or did you make photostats?

Mr. BARNHORST. We do not keep this for any great length of time. Mr. McRee said we might turn this over to you.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.

Mr. BARNHORST. As with all of the records.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will retain them. Do you have other papers?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; these are the daily report sheets you requested. This is October 1963. These are for the specific dates at the top.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has now produced and handed me----

Mr. BARNHORST. You see, the carbon was in the thing backwards when it was typed, so, they didn't do it over on the third copy, they just stapled a sheet behind it and attached it to the copies you read it through from the top because an error was made in putting it in the typewriter.

Mr. JENNER. The front of each of these two sheets, for the purpose of identification in the record consist of two sheets stapled together back to back and in the typing the sheet was reversed and must be read from back to front. The first, or facing sheet, is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 12, and it is entitled "Resident's Hall Report, Thursday, October 3, 1963." The left-hand column is headed "Permanent-in." The right-hand column is headed, "Transients-out continued." This records, as I look at it here, the registrations in and out on October 3, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; approximately. It may include one or two who came in just the night before or who checked out, or men who would have been there and checked out the following day--would be on the next day's report.

Mr. JENNER. Is there an entry on this sheet with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, room 601, on the "Transients-out," and I believe on the "Transients-in," I'm not sure. On this one it is the "Transients-in," room 601. He isn't on this sheet on "Transients-out." I don't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. Room 601--and he is shown checked in by Mr. Barker?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And from your knowledge of the hours Mr. Barker worked, that check-in was either late in the day or early in the evening of October 3?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The second set of papers you have produced consists of three sheets, each entitled, "Resident's Hall Report." They are dated at the top right-hand column as October 4, 1963, October 15, 1962, and October 19, 1962. They are marked respectively, Hulen Exhibits Nos. 13, 14, and 15.

Mr. BARNHORST. Hulen Exhibit No. 13 is for the day following October 3, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the same report for the following day, and is there an entry on this that relates to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; "Transients-out, Room 601."

Mr. JENNER. Under "Transients-out," Room 601, appears the name "Lee H. Oswald." Then, at the end of the line there there is a word that is apparently a name (spelling) E-v-a----

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who is that?

Mr. BARNHORST. Mrs. Eva Marshall.

Mr. JENNER. What does she do?

Mr. BARNHORST. She is the day clerk. She was probably substituting at the time for the clerk who quit.

Mr. JENNER. All right, and this indicates then that he checked out on the 3d of October and that the lady you have identified handled that checkout?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the fact that she did it would indicate to you what, as to the time of day he checked out?

Mr. BARNHORST. It would probably be morning, but it also could be early afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibits 14 and 15 cover the period October 15-19, 1963?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer the exhibits.

I think that's all we have with respect to you. You overheard what I said to Mr. Hulen with regard to reading the deposition. That applies to you as well. If you will check with Mr. Sanders, this ought to be ready next week. It is rather late in the week to have it ready. You may sign the deposition if you wish or you may waive that. If there are any errors in it, we would like to know. Thank you very much.

Mr. BARNHORST. OK.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ARTHUR CARL (GLADYS J.) JOHNSON

The testimony of Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, and sit down. My name is Joe Ball and Mrs. Johnson, I think we will start with you. Will you stand up, Mrs. Johnson, please, and hold up your right hand?

[Complying.]

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I certainly do; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Johnson, my name is Joe Ball and I am a staff counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You have received a letter from us, did you not?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Asking you to appear today and you are appearing voluntarily?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You will be asked questions concerning certain facts of which you have knowledge that have to do with our investigation of the assassination of the President, and particularly your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his place of residence and various things that you might know concerning Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mrs. JOHNSON. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. How long have you lived there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. 21 years.

Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Arthur Carl Johnson.

Mr. BALL. First of all, before I ask you any more questions, can you tell me something about your background, where you were born, where you went to school?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long you've been married and everything.

Mrs. JOHNSON. I was born in 1902 in Cherokee County at Alto and I was married to my first husband in 1920 and he is deceased. I had two children by him and he is deceased and I have been married to this Mr. Johnson will be 18 years in August.

Mr. BALL. You are a housewife by occupation?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, I have a restaurant. I have a little restaurant of my own for 28 years, 1029 Young Street, Johnson's Cafe.

Mr. BALL. You still operate it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I still do.

Mr. BALL. You said you had lived at this place, 1026----

Mrs. JOHNSON. About 21 years.

Mr. BALL. North Beckley?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mrs. BALL. You and your husband own that property?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I do; I owned it before I married. I don't own it. I am paying for it but I had bought the property before I married Johnson.

Mr. BALL. What size house is that, how many rooms?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it has about 20-odd--22 rooms.

Mr. BALL. 22 rooms?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In October, last October, November, 1963, who lived there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. October?

Mr. BALL. Yes, October and November last year; you and your husband lived there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; my husband and I; that's our home.

Mr. BALL. Anyone else live there with you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I had a housekeeper.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Earlene Roberts.

Mr. BALL. Anyone else live there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That's all except tenants.

Mr. BALL. Then you rented out rooms?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I rent out bedrooms, don't give board, just bedroom and living room privileges.

Mr. BALL. How many tenants did you have in October last year?

Mrs. JOHNSON. You know, I'm sorry I didn't bring my register. I couldn't tell you exactly; I imagine I had about 10 or 12.

Mr. BALL. Was it full?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I don't--I most always have vacancies.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I have had more even since this happened.

Mr. BALL. Oh, you have?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I have; people are funny about things like that, you know.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a renter, that's all.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first met him, at what place?

Mrs. JOHNSON. At my home--I was between serving hours and I come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon and he seen the room for rent sign--the first time that he came by, I happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, I will have them full and then they just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't have a room.

Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes: that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.

Mr. BALL. This was 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He talked to you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. I said, "You noticed the sign." I hadn't had time to take the sign up and I told him, "I will take the sign up and if you notice the sign up again, you might stop by and I will have a room" and sure enough, he came by this second time and so this tiny, little room--it was at one time my library; that's what it was built for, and he came by and I said I only have this small room at the present time. I run an ad, it seems like, at that time, and I said I only have the small room and he looked at it and said, "I will take this room with the understanding I can have a larger room at the time you have one go vacant" and I said to him that's agreeable, so, at the time, I had other vacancies which in just 2 or 3 days I had two or three more accommodations go vacant, so I told him I had other accommodations that are larger and he said, "I find this room to be light and comfortable." It was four windows on the outside wall; it was all light. He said, "I find it to be light and comfortable and worth the money, if you don't mind, I will remain in this room," so he didn't even look at the other rooms. He just remained in that room, what I call my library. When I utilized it into a bedroom, my father-in-law lived with a family of people on a farm and they went to Arkansas to live and he was getting old and he didn't want to be that far away from his son, so he wanted to come and make his home with us and I fixed this little library room--it was off and private from the other roomers--for "Pappy" to sleep in and the living room for him to sit in and he was--that's about 9 years before he was deceased.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the date Oswald rented the room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. October 14.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did he come by?

Mrs. JOHNSON. It was between 4 and 5 o'clock, I do know that because I was home that day when he came back by and I said, when he came by, I said, "You did come back by."

Mr. BALL. Was your sign out at that time?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; it was; he seen the sign.

Mr. BALL. How much did you charge him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. $8 a week, refrigerator and living room privileges.

Mr. BALL. The refrigerator was located where?

Mrs. JOHNSON. In my kitchen--he wanted to know if he could put milk and lunch meat in my refrigerator and I told him he could.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what his name was?

Mrs. JOHNSON. O. H. L-e-e [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Did he sign anything with that name?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I have it in my purse.

Mr. BALL. May I see it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I will be glad to--I don't want you to keep it. I want you to--I brought it for your information. I knew you was going to ask that.

Mr. BALL. Now, is this in his handwriting?

Mrs. JOHNSON. This "O. H. Lee" is in his handwriting and this other is in the housekeeper's handwriting--Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. And these are the rates you gave him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I would like this marked as an exhibit to this deposition. Mark this Exhibit A.

[Exhibit so marked.]

Mr. BALL. Could we make a copy of this and return this to you, Mrs. Johnson?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I have been told that I could sell this and I haven't gotten any money. I think about $30 is what I have received, all the trouble and all I've had and I've had to take the rugs up once or twice. People like to have driven us crazy before we asked for any information what to do. I hated to be rude to people. I didn't know what to do but they got so----

Mr. BALL. We will make a picture of this and give it back to you.

Mrs. JOHNSON. May I have something to erase this November 13, 15--I got that wrong, anyway. I was looking at the calendar and this, I was thinking it was November 13 that he left--he left my place on a Wednesday before this assassination on Friday.

Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah; the last time I saw him was on a Wednesday but my housekeeper seen him on a Friday morning right after this assassination, he came by the house hurriedly.

Mr. BALL. Were you at home at the time?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I wasn't. I was at my restaurant, so I got this copied wrong. It was November 20; the assassination was on the 22d and he left my house on the 20th and then didn't return until right after this assassination.

Mr. BALL. By this, you mean the last time you saw him was Wednesday, the 20th?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did not come home on Thursday night?

Mrs. JOHNSON. He did not; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. The 21st?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Friday, the 22d, you did not see him, either?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I didn't. The housekeeper did.

Mr. BALL. We will make a copy of this and give the original back to you and we will mark this "A." Did he sign that "O. H. Lee" in your presence?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On that day?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; the day he rented the room, they sign the register--they sign the register before I accept any money.

Mr. BALL. I'm talking about this "O. H. Lee" signature on this document; he signed that on that date?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you the money?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. $8?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know his true name was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; not until we saw his picture flash on the television as the officers were out. Those particulars was found in his pocket after he killed Tippit, after his arrest. So I came from the restaurant, I guess 1 or 1:30, and these officers were there 1:30 or 2, something like that, anyway, it was after this assassination, and as I drove in, well, the officers were there and they told me that they was looking for this character and I told them I didn't think I had anyone by that name there but we went through the register carefully two or three times and there was no Oswald there and I had two new tenants, rather new tenants, so we had carried them around the house to show them and we was going to start in the new tenants' rooms and my husband was sitting in the living room and seen this picture flash on the television and he said, "Please go around that house and tell him it was this guy that lived in this room here"; and it was O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. That is the first time you learned his name was Oswald?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You knew him as O. H. Lee?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I knew him as O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. The first time you knew the man to be Lee Harvey Oswald that you had known as O. H. Lee?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when Oswald brought his clothes into the room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; what do you mean?

Mr. BALL. Now, you rented the room to him on the 14th?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he move in on that same day?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and he had his clothes with him.

Mr. BALL. He had his clothes with him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he just had a little old bag of clothes, these little bags you get when you are in the service.

Mr. BALL. A duffelbag?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's all he had?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That's all he had.

Mr. BALL. He was there only--you say he rented it on the 14th of October?

Mrs. JOHNSON. He rented the 14th of October.

Mr. BALL. Then he paid his rent every week until when?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Every week, every week, I tell you, when he rented the room, he told me that he was--I told him the rules of the house before I accepted any renter I rent to, I tell them the rules of the house.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That we definitely do not entertain in bedrooms, strictly the living room, and, too, they cannot come in intoxicated. If they drink, they must sober before they come in and I do not allow drinking at the home. That's the rules of the house and he accepted it.

Mr. BALL. He was there a little better than a month?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Five or six weeks?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. Did he eat any of his meals there at the home?

Mrs. JOHNSON. He had sandwiches and had milk. He drank about a half gallon of sweet milk a day. He kept a half gallon of sweet milk in my refrigerator a day and he kept lunch meat.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Jelly and preserves, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Did he eat in the evening after work?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he did, most every afternoon.

Mr. BALL. He ate where, in his room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Sometimes take it in his room, but he was just spotless with it.

Mr. BALL. Did he eat in the kitchen with it sometimes?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Occasionally, if there was no one in the kitchen, he would sit in the kitchen, but if there was anyone in there, he would take it in his room and every bit of that was put in the trash can. He never kept anything cluttered, never kept anything outside, no papers, books, or nothing.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him eat anything but lunch meat?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I never did, just lunch meat, all he ever put in there and preserves, I think he had some preserves and milk; but he put about a half gallon of sweet milk in that box each day.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating his evening meal?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I don't think I had seen him but I have seen him come in and get the lunch meat and carry it into his room.

Mr. BALL. Did he go out nights, any?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I just really never did see that man leave that room.

Mr. BALL. After he came back from work?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; he stayed very closely but he did tell me he would be leaving to go home over weekends--no; he didn't say "home," he said, "I will leave to go to Irving over weekends and won't return until Monday."

Mr. BALL. Was he gone almost every weekend?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Every weekend but one and that was the weekend previous to the assassination.

Mr. BALL. What did he do that weekend?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I actually didn't see him leave the house but I know he did because I heard some of the renters say they seen him leave and I also heard--remember something that he went to the rifle range--I read he was at the rifle range.

Mr. BALL. You say you did not see him leave. Were you there over the weekend?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I surely was.

Mr. BALL. But you did not see him leave?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BALL. You say you heard some people say that; who said that?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I have read.

Mr. BALL. Don't tell me what you read.

Mrs. JOHNSON. I actually read it in the newspaper; I just don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Is there anybody that you know of at your house that you say saw Oswald leave the house the weekend before the assassination?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I'm trying to think. I just don't believe that I remember anyone who said definitely that they seen him leave.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that lived in your house there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. They could come in and out that door and we never would notice it because the house is large and we stayed a lot in the back of the house.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned rifle range. Where did you get information that Oswald went to a rifle range?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I read it in the paper.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody in your house tell you he went to a rifle range?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him go to a rifle range?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he went to a rifle range?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; that man never talked; that was the only peculiarity about him. He would never speak. If we would speak to him and some of the men renters he would speak to the housekeeper and I everytime we would speak and we would speak to him just most every time we would meet him and, of course, he would speak after we would speak, but he would come in and watch television maybe 30, 40 minutes at a time and never speak to a man.

Mr. BALL. He would watch television sometimes?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; watch television with the other men renters and he wouldn't speak to them. Maybe they would speak to him but he wouldn't speak.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him with a rifle?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Never did; and he never brought that rifle in my house; I just know he never had that rifle in there. He could have had this pistol, I don't know, because they found the scabbard.

Mr. BALL. The pistol holster is what they found?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Pistol holster is what I'm trying to say.

Mr. BALL. They found that after the assassination?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes sir; I seen the holster.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen it before?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; he kept that packed away. We never go through people's personal things. I instruct my housekeeper never go through people's personal things. We are not in a position to do that and it's rude and we do not.

Mr. BALL. How is this room furnished that Oswald rented?

Mrs. JOHNSON. A very small room; it had an old fashioned clothes closet that had a place to hang your clothes and drawer space for your underwear, your socks and everything, and then it also had a cabinet space anyone could have stored food or, well I mean bundles of things, you know, and then I had a dresser and a bed and a heater and a little refrigerated unit.

Mr. BALL. A refrigerating unit?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; a window unit.

Mr. BALL. You mean it cooled the room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds.

Mr. BALL. What kind of curtains did it have?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, it just had side drapes and panels.

Mr. BALL. Were the curtains on curtain rods?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were in the room when he rented it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; never mentioned it.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he was going to get some curtain rods?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. The room had curtain rods on the window when he came in there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL. Also curtains?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there one weekend when he was gone in which he didn't return on Monday but he came back the next day, on Tuesday?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; there was one and it must have been on Labor--no----

Mr. BALL. Armistice Day?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Armistice Day; it was on Monday, was it not?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. JOHNSON. That was Monday he wasn't home. He didn't come home until Tuesday; that's the first time and only time he failed to pay his rent when it was due. It was due on Monday.

Mr. BALL. When did he pay it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I would say the next 5 minutes after he walked into the house from work.

Mr. BALL. What time did he come home from work on Tuesday?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Something like 5 o'clock, 4:30 or 5--5, I think.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he had been?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, no; he didn't tell us anything; no; we didn't ask.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the next weekend, that would be the weekend before the assassination, he stayed there?

Mrs. JOHNSON. He remained there.

Mr. BALL. Did you or did you not see him go out any that weekend?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I did not see him go out; I did not; no, sir.

(At this point Mr. Johnson left the room.)

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: did he, that weekend, that was the weekend before the assassination, on a Saturday, make a trip to a place where they wash clothes?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I think that he did go across to that washateria. I think he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go any place, go out of the house except for that on that weekend?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That's the only time and I had just forgotten that but I do remember he carried some clothes out of that house that morning and the washateria is right across the street, less than a block.

Mr. BALL. But he left his room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. And he wasn't gone long and I didn't see him return with any clothes but I do know he was gone just about long enough to do a wash.

Mr. BALL. Did he watch television every evening?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Not every evening but just every time he took a notion but maybe 95 percent of the time he would sit in his room.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any visitors?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; he never had a visitor.

Mr. BALL. Do you ever remember him spending an evening away from home except for these times you told us about?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Not an evening that I remember him being away but other than weekends he would. He would leave on Friday mornings and return Monday evenings.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you when he rented your room where he was working?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he didn't, but he did tell me he would be returning to Irving each weekend.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he was working?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you what his job was?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; he told me he was anxious to rent the room being on the busline and near his work and he didn't have a car and he would be returning to Irving.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him in the company of anyone?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Never did see him in the company of nobody.

Mr. BALL. Did he drink?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; no more than sweet milk.

Mr. BALL. He never drink intoxicating liquor?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I don't believe he drank.

Mr. BALL. You never saw him drink anything?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You never saw him intoxicated?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he smoke?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Miss Earlene Roberts was your housekeeper at this time?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was.

Mr. BALL. How long have you known her?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I have known Mrs. Roberts, oh, I guess it was 6 years, something like that, 6 years.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first meet her?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I hired her as a housekeeper.

Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you let her go?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.

Mr. BALL. What are they?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking, just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.

Mr. BALL. She was working for you in October and November while Oswald was a renter with you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, she was. This Saturday night will be 3 weeks she left.

Mr. BALL. She quit 3 weeks ago?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I didn't know she was going.

Mr. BALL. Where did she go?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I do not know. I called her sister to try to find out. I don't think she knows.

Mr. BALL. Who is her sister?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Mrs. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. BALL. She lives here in Dallas?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; on Swiss. I think.

Mr. BALL. Have you talked to her within the last few days?

Mrs. JOHNSON. A number of times I talked to her, trying to find Earlene. I thought it was important we did come to this Commission and I wanted to ask Earlene just why she did leave because I didn't know there was a thing in the world wrong. Well, I carried her to Pleasant Grove to a doctor and spent a half day that I should have been even with my brother that had had a heart attack, been assisting my sister-in-law and her chores that day.

Mr. BALL. When was this?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Three weeks ago Saturday.

Mr. BALL. That's the day you took her to the doctor?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I took her every 2 weeks just as regular.

Mr. BALL. She quit that day?

Mrs. JOHNSON. That night, and everything was just as agreeable; I went and shopped for vegetables and her special meats for her diet. She is a diabetic, too, while she was in the doctor's office, and I had everything for another week for her diet.

Mr. BALL. Did she come to you and tell you she was going to quit?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; she never mentioned such a thing. I thought everything was just agreeable.

Mr. BALL. What did she do, move out?

Mrs. JOHNSON. After midnight, after everyone was in bed.

Mr. BALL. She didn't tell you she was going?

Mrs. JOHNSON. She didn't tell me she was going.

Mr. BALL. You haven't see her since?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I haven't seen her since.

Mr. BALL. Did a letter come to your house to Earlene Roberts from the Commission?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I held it until the last minute and returned it to you.

Mr. BALL. Your letter and your husband's letter came to the house?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You called Mrs. Cheek?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. To find out where Earlene was?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did she tell you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. She told me she had called her and told her she had left my house and she said, "I just proceeded to tell her what I thought about it because you are so good and so nice to her. She should never have quit you like that." She said, "You know how she is, she hasn't called back. She might swell up and pout and it will be months before she calls me again."

Mr. BALL. Do you know any reason why she should have left you?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Mrs. Cheek, the sister, says when she was talking to her she brought up a little old lady that does room with me and she is a retired woman who is drawing her social security and she was a housekeeper previous to this last time Mrs. Roberts was there--Katy Gage, a precious woman, gets along with everybody. She's got children but doesn't want to live with them. She prefers living with my husband and I, renting a room and lives with us. She tells--and Mrs. Cheek says first thing she brought up was Katy. She says she's jealous of Katy and I don't know why she is. There is no reason to be.

Mr. BALL. Did Earlene Roberts ever talk to Oswald in your presence; did you ever see them talk to each other?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Listen here, no; I don't believe that Lee talked to anybody. I just really don't.

Mr. BALL. Did Earlene ever talk to you about Oswald?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BALL. Say she thought he was a peculiar one?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BALL. She never mentioned him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; she just didn't like him because he wouldn't speak but that's all.

Mr. BALL. She told you she did not like him?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah, she would say "I would like to know if he thinks he is too good to speak to me when he comes through the kitchen." I said, "If you speak to him, he will speak," I said, "I will speak to him" and he says, "Good morning" but he didn't speak if I didn't speak.

Mr. BALL. On the day of the 22d of November, were you home around 1 o'clock?

Mrs. JOHNSON. It must have been 1:30 or 2, something like that.

Mr. BALL. When you came home?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; after serving lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did Earlene Roberts say anything to you whether or not this man had returned?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No; after these officers came in, well, then she began to tell them that he did come rushing in and she had gotten a phone call or had made one, anyway, she was on the phone--no, there was someone called her, that's what she said, said someone called her and she says, "Did you know that the President had been assassinated" and she says, "Why, no" and she says, "Well, it's on the television now" and she says, "I will run and turn it on" and she run in and turned this television on to get this information and this Oswald walked in hurriedly and she said, she said to him, "You seem to be in a hurry." She was the only one in that place. She said he didn't say a word but went on in his room and she said he changed his little zip-up coat, way I understand it, and just went right back out. He evidently got the gun; now, we don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did she tell the officers that?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yeah, she told the officers that.

Mr. BALL. When they came out there, did they have a search warrant?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, surely.

Mr. BALL. Did you permit them to search his room?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; they taken everything immediately out of his room.

Mr. BALL. Did you look in the room while they were searching it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I certainly did. It had French doors to it; folding open, you couldn't help but see everything, the books and all they took out of these chests of drawers. They was throwin' them down on the bed.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a pistol holster?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where was it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I don't know; they took it out of one of the drawers of this chest.

Mr. BALL. It was in a drawer?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Now, you can look this over and sign it, if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will have it written up and send it on to Washington.

Mrs. JOHNSON. How is this?

Mr. BALL. If you wish, we will have this written up and you can read it over and sign it or you can waive signature, if you wish, and you won't need to read it over and sign it. What do you prefer?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I would think that you people--of course, the way I worded it, it probably sounds terrible.

Mr. BALL. I thought it sounded very good.

Mrs. JOHNSON. I put it just as straight as I could because we did know such a little about this man but you know I have rented rooms a long time and I find people, around boys, especially, about this age, some of them are shy. They don't prefer a lot of yakking and you will get to where, actually, you appreciate a person that goes in his room and takes care of his own business rather than sit around and quiz and ask personal questions and wants to change from one television program to another. You get tired of that.

Mr. BALL. Are you satisfied to waive your signature, Mrs. Johnson?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Why, yes.

Mr. BALL. And leave it just as you said it?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I have said the truth, nothing but the truth.

Mr. BALL. Then, you won't have to sign it. We will send it on to the Commission this way.

Mrs. JOHNSON. I have told you the truth.

TESTIMONY OF A. C. JOHNSON

The testimony of A. C. Johnson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David S. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you stand up and raise your right hand, Mr. Johnson?

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Please be seated, sir. Your name is A. C. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. A. C.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. That's here in Dallas?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived there?

Mr. JOHNSON. I've lived there 17 years, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Now what's your occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Carpenter.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Texas, or did you move here?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, I'm from Kentucky--was born in Kentucky. My folks came here when I was 5 years old.

Mr. BELIN. They came here to Texas?

Mr. JOHNSON. When I was 5 years old. And I've been in and around Dallas ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes--not in Dallas, but country schools--county schools, you know.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--just grade school.

Mr. BELIN. Just grade school. And then did you go to work?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any Army service at all?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Just by general background, has your general occupation been a carpenter for most of these past 20 or 30 years?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I've been a carpenter for about--uh--well, about 20 years, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. Before that, what did you do?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was raised on a farm.

Mr. BELIN. And you worked on a farm then?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you and your wife have this house at 1026 North Beckley and have people that room there by the week?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how many people do you have that room there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, when it's full, we have 17.

Mr. BELIN. Has it been full within the past 6 months at all, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, no, it hasn't.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, how long have you been married, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Seventeen years.

Mr. BELIN. You've been married 17 years?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime last fall, a person came to your house to rent a room who you knew by the name of O. H. Lee. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When he first came, were you all full at that time or not--or don't you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe that--uh--the little room he took was the only room available at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Had he come any earlier to try and find a room earlier--or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--Mrs. Roberts said he had been by once before.

Mr. BELIN. And was that little room available then, or not--or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember exactly. I believe, though, that--uh--I believe he looked at it and decided he'd wait awhile. But the next time he came back, why he decided he'd take it.

My wife told him that--uh--if he wanted to take that room, why he could, you know, when we had a larger room and more convenient for him, why he could have it. And so he just--after he got this little room, why he just decided he'd stay in it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe that little room for us?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it's just a--a small room. I believe it's about 8 by 12, or something like that. It was a library room.

Mr. BELIN. Does it have any windows in it?

Mr. JOHNSON. It has--uh--three--four windows, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. On one side, two sides, three sides?

Mr. JOHNSON. One side.

Mr. BELIN. They're all on one side?

Mr. JOHNSON. All on one side.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any curtains on those windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have curtains at that time on the windows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How were the curtains put up--by curtain rods, or by what?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Curtain rods. Yes. They were just on regular curtain rods.

Mr. BELIN. There were already curtain rods in the room, then, when this O. H. Lee came there--is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the curtains at all, that were in there, if you remember them, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I couldn't.

Mr. BELIN. Would those curtains still be on there today? Or might you have different ones now?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; we'd have different curtains now.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who he got his room from--from you or from your wife or from your housekeeper?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Who was your housekeeper, by the way?

Mr. JOHNSON. Earlene Roberts.

Mr. BELIN. Is she still there?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; she's moved.

Mr. BELIN. How long had she been a housekeeper for you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, that's something around a year--this past--the last time, I mean.

Mr. BELIN. She was a housekeeper for you prior to that time?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; about a year or a little better.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how old Mrs. Roberts is--approximately?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe she's in her fifties.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have any objections in stating for the record approximately how old you are?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'm 59.

Mr. BELIN. Fifty-nine. Did Mrs. Roberts say why she was leaving?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; she didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did she give you any notice that she was leaving?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; didn't give us any notice.

Mr. BELIN. She just walked out?

Mr. JOHNSON. Just walked out.

Mr. BELIN. When did she walk out?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was in the night.

Mr. BELIN. Just the middle of the night?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we don't know what time. All the roomers had already gone to bed, so we don't know what time it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did she have any pay coming from you, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know. My wife always pays her. Now, I couldn't tell you. I don't remember. I've even forgotten what night she moved. I think my wife paid her on Wednesday night--or on Wednesdays. But I couldn't tell you what day she moved.

Mr. BELIN. The last time she worked for you, when she left did she give you any notice?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. The last--the last time was the one I had reference to.

Mr. BELIN. I mean, the first time that she worked for you? Or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right. In any case, this man, O. H. Lee, came to rent a room from you or from your wife?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe how you came to find out that this man had another name other than O. H. Lee?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was when the officers came looking for him.

Mr. BELIN. When was this?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--after Tippit was shot, the police----

Mr. BELIN. This would have been on November 22, 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And can you state what happened?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they just came down there looking for--uh--Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say what his full name was?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I believe they did.

Mr. BELIN. Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe they did.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say how they happened to come there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they searched him and found my address in his pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Your address of 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What happened when the officers got there? They asked you if Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long had you been at the house when the officers arrived?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, probably 30 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best I remember.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get home that day from your work?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little bit after.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you had gotten home, had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. I heard that before I went home.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that the President had died before you went home?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you got home sometime after you had heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1029 Young Street.

Mr. BELIN. And is that a business?

Mr. JOHNSON. We have a little restaurant there.

Mr. BELIN. You and your wife have a restaurant there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was your wife there, too?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we work together.

Mr. BELIN. And did you hear this on the radio?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.

Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. We don't have one there in the place, so we went out in the car and sat there in the car and listened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And was it while you were sitting in the car that you heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we didn't leave until we--it was announced that he was dead.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after that announcement did you leave?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, how long did it take you to get to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. JOHNSON. It takes us about 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So that about 10 minutes after you heard on the radio that the President had been shot, you arrived with your wife at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone? Was Mrs. Roberts there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; she was there--at the television.

Mr. BELIN. She was watching television?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had this man, O. H. Lee, was he there when you got there?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; he had been there just--uh--before we got home.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts tell you that he had?

Mr. JOHNSON. She told us that he come in and got a--uh--little coat or something and just walked in his room and right back out the door.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what was the occasion of Mrs. Roberts telling you that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I--just general conversation, I suppose, you know. Uh--after she found out who it was----

Mr. BELIN. Oh, she told you this after she found out that this was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh-huh; that he did come in and get his coat.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did she tell you this before the police came to your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; because she had no idea. Her sister, I believe it was, called her and told her to turn the television on, that Kennedy had been shot. And she was over there working with the television, tuning it in, when Oswald came in.

Mr. BELIN. When did she tell you this?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--just after we found out that it was--Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. After you found out that O. H. Lee was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you started to tell me how you found this out. I believe you said the police came sometime after you got home?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. And I saw his picture on television, you know. As quick as we found out who he was, why Mrs. Roberts just said something about that he had come by the house here.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me backtrack a minute, now.

How soon after you got home did the police come--approximately?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say within 30 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. 30 minutes after you got home, the police came. And what did the police say to you?

Mr. JOHNSON. They asked if--uh--we had anyone by that name living there.

Mr. BELIN. By the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you tell them?

Mr. JOHNSON. We told them, "No."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what did they say?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the rooms. They had described his age, his build, and so forth, and we had two more boys rooming there. Uh--and my wife was going to let them see the rooms.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife was going to let them see the rooms that you had--and you had a total of 17 roomers, I believe you said?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, no. I don't know just how many roomers we had. We have 17 bedrooms--but I don't know just, at that time, how many roomers we had.

But, anyway, we had a couple of boys around his age that had moved in just a few days before, and, so, she was going to let them see their rooms.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I saw his picture on television and I hollered at them and told them. They were out in the back, started around the house to the--uh--basement where these boys room. The bedrooms are all in the basement. And they were going back there.

And--uh--I just called them and told them, I said, "Why, it's this fellow that lives in here."

Mr. BELIN. You told them that you had seen the picture of this man on television?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you tell them what this man was known to you as?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the records, and we showed them--the register, I mean--and we showed them the register.

And then they searched his room.

Mr. BELIN. You showed them the register with this name of O. H. Lee?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When was it, after that, that Mrs. Roberts said that he had been there that day?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was along about--during the conversation with these--uh--men.

Mr. BELIN. Did she see his picture on television at the same time you did?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about him being O. H. Lee--or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--yes. We all--uh--were just discussing it, you know. And she told him--I believe she did--or my wife did. Said, "Well, that's the reason we didn't understand who they were looking for--because we didn't know him as Oswald."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Who recognized his face on television first? You or Mrs. Roberts?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe I was the one--best I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Roberts looking at television at the same time you were then, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were all talking--talking, like I say, to the officers and so forth. And--uh--I believe though that she was looking at it at the same time I was. My wife had just stepped out of the house with the officers.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did Mrs. Roberts say about this man having been at the home earlier that day--this O. H. Lee, which they had identified as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. She just--uh--I believe she told them that he came in and got a little--uh--sport coat, or some sort of a little coat, and slipped it on and went right back out. And she said that she made the remark that he--said, "You must be in a hurry"--and he didn't say anything; went on out the door.

And the next thing we knew or heard of him was after Tippit was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else she said about Lee Harvey Oswald's visit to your home?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. That's just about it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe Lee Harvey Oswald at all? What kind of a person was he?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he was nice enough, I'd say, as a roomer because he always kept his room nice and he was very well-behaved. He didn't--uh--talk to anyone. He might speak to you when he came in and he might not. I suppose it was according to the mood he was in, or something, I never did think too much about it--because--uh--we have so many roomers anyway that I don't pay too much attention.

Mr. BELIN. Did he drink at all?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of. I don't--if he ever did drink a bottle of beer, I never did know it; never did smell it, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he smoke cigarettes--do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was right-handed or left-handed?

Mr. JOHNSON. [Pausing before reply] No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he stay out late at night or was he generally home relatively early in the evening?

Mr. JOHNSON. He was home--uh--usually right after work and just--uh--I suppose he'd go out and eat or maybe to the washateria or somewhere like that. If he was ever gone any other than this--the night before the assassination, I didn't know it. It was after we had already gone to bed, if he did leave.

Mr. BELIN. What time did he leave for work in the morning, do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, around 7:30, something like that. Now, I wouldn't be sure because we leave out real early and I was never there. But I--I think that they said--Mrs. Roberts, I believe, or some of them--said he left around 7:30. Now, I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he took his lunch to work with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a bus that goes by or near your house that goes near to where he worked?

Mr. JOHNSON. The bus comes right by the house.

Mr. BELIN. What bus is that?

Mr. JOHNSON. The Beckley bus.

Mr. BELIN. The Beckley bus? Does it stop right in front of your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. It stops right--uh--well, my house is the third house from the corner, and it stops right on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. And does that go right to or near Elm and Houston?

Mr. JOHNSON. It goes right by there.

Mr. BELIN. And can you pick up a bus near Elm and Houston to get right back to your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I believe it goes right back down--uh--Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald generally stay at your home on weekends?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where he went?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--no; I don't. I just assumed he went home.

Mr. BELIN. By "home," you mean to----

Mr. JOHNSON. Irving. I believe that's where his wife lived.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever talk to you about his wife or family?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; never did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear him make any telephone calls to his wife, or to someone?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, he'd make calls but I never did know who he was calling. Because, like I say, he'd talk in a foreign language all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Were these toll calls, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; so far as I know, he never put in a toll call.

Mr. BELIN. When you call Irving, Tex., is this a toll call, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; it's the same exchange.

Mr. BELIN. You said that you heard him talk in a foreign language. About how often would he make these calls?

Mr. JOHNSON. Most every evening after work.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that he generally wasn't there on weekends. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some weekends when he might be there--or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any week nights when he wasn't there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--so far as I know, the night before the assassination, the night of the twenty--that would be the 21st.

Mr. BELIN. Twenty-first of November?

Mr. JOHNSON. The night before the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Was there any other week night, apart from November 21, that he wasn't there--to the best of your recollection?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you before November 21 that he wasn't going to be there that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. He paid for the room by the week, didn't he?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How much was his room rent?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, $8 a week.

Mr. BELIN. Were your larger rooms more expensive?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When a larger room became available was this ever told to him, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe my wife told him but--uh--but he just--said he'd just as soon stay on in that small room, that it was handy and that he'd just stay on.

Mr. BELIN. When a person stayed by the week, did he pay his rent in advance?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What day of the week would his rent be due?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don't know what day his--Oswald's--was due. They pay--if they move in on a Monday, they pay it--the rent is due on Monday.

Mr. BELIN. From one Monday to the following Monday, is that right?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this one night that he wasn't there. Were there any telephone calls for him on November 21?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say why he was going home? Did you ever know ahead of time that he was going to Irving that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him after the morning of November 21?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might be relevant or important?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I can't think of anything else because, like I say, I didn't really know the man.

Mr. BELIN. Is Johnny's Cafe the one that you say you and your wife operate?

Mr. JOHNSON. Johnson's Cafe.

Mr. BELIN. Johnson's Cafe?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; 1029 Young Street.

Mr. BELIN. You own that? I mean, you operate it yourself as proprietor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You're kind of a real businessman here. You rent a roominghouse, and you have a cafe, and you have carpenters. Anything else, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I have an apartment house and a little rental property.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about the assassination or about Lee Harvey Oswald, or anything or anyone connected with Oswald or the assassination that you might think would be of help?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; no. I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Since November 22, 1963, have you ever talked to your wife or Mrs. Roberts about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. You know, we've discussed the thing--and--uh--I suppose you'd say that we're just more or less in shock or something, knowing that he lived there and that a thing like that happened. It's just--and all the publicity of the thing, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Has Mrs. Roberts said anything further about her observations of Lee Harvey Oswald to you?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where we can locate her at all to talk to her?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. You got a letter, by the way, saying that we would be here to take the deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts leave before she got that letter or after?

Mr. JOHNSON. Why she left before. She's been gone for--I guess--3 weeks, or maybe 4.

Mr. BELIN. Before we start taking your deposition, you and I chatted briefly for a few minutes about your roominghouse, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that we talked about that we don't have recorded here on this deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me all you knew about it, or did I try and lead you to say anything that wasn't true in any way?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You just told me----

Mr. JOHNSON. I told you just what little I know about it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of now?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's about all I know about the man.

Mr. BELIN. One other question; I might ask you if you've ever seen the shirt--Exhibit 150? Did you ever see Oswald wearing this, or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember. He did wear sports clothes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; because I didn't see him that day.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't see him that day. Well, on any day--for instance, here's another exhibit here--kind of a dark blue jacket--Exhibit 163. Have you ever seen Oswald wearing Exhibit No. 163?

Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly thank you, Mr. Johnson, for all of your cooperation. I know this has been time consuming on your part here.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we've always tried to cooperate because, you know they've brought so much publicity down on us there and we've kinda felt bad about it. So we've just thought the thing out and thought that it could happen to anybody that deals with the public, you know--rents rooms or anything.

Mr. BELIN. By the way--I don't know if I asked you. You can sign the deposition or you can waive the signing of it and just have the court reporter record it as she has it recorded here.

Do you want to sign it or do you just want to waive the signing of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it doesn't make any difference because it's----

Mr. BELIN. Well, if it doesn't make any difference to you, will you just then waive the signing of it and save your coming down the second time here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want you to know that we appreciate the fact that you've had people in and out of your house and everything else.

Mr. JOHNSON. We're glad to help in any way we can, you know.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, I might ask you one question that we forgot. When the police first came on November 22, did they have a search warrant at all or not? Or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--they didn't have one at the time, but they called and got one before they went into his room.

Mr. BELIN. They called and got a search warrant before they went in his room?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. They called over my phone.

Mr. BELIN. Over your phone? You heard them call?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I believe that's all. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF CLIFTON M. SHASTEEN

The testimony of Clifton M. Shasteen was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and take the oath, please?

Mr. SHASTEEN. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you swear in your testimony to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I do. Now, I want to tell you before I start--there is some question--I just have to go back from memory.

Mr. JENNER. That's all right. All we mean when we say "the truth" is just to the best of your ability.

Mr. SHASTEEN. When I ever talked to him, I never dreamed I would ever see him again--you see?

Mr. JENNER. Sure. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; the chief of police came out yesterday afternoon. He's a good friend of mine, and he came out yesterday evening and had me to call----

Mr. JENNER. The Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, which is a Commission appointed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all of the circumstances surrounding that tragic event.

The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing its scope of operation and its power. Under the regulations of the Commission, the members of the staff are authorized to take depositions and swear witnesses.

We understand from various sources, FBI reports--that you may possibly have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald in which the Commission is interested and there might be some other information on which we are not immediately advised that may come to your mind.

Mr. JENNER. As I understand it, your full name is Clifford----

Mr. SHASTEEN. Clifton [spelling] C-l-i-f-t-o-n.

Mr. JENNER. M is your initial?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Shasteen. S-h-a-s-t-e-e-n.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You live at 2214 Fairfax in Irving, Tex. As I understand it, you are the owner and operator of Clifton's Barbershop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At 1321 South Storey in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native of Dallas, are you?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I've been here about 20 years.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's good enough and you are married and have a family and live in Irving, Tex., as indicated?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that in the course of your looking at television on the 22d of November 1963, there occurred to you upon seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered some tonsorial services to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you just as near as I can remember that day--what happened is the TV shop next to me, in other words, about two doors down----

Mr. JENNER. Next to your business?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I heard it over the radio and went to the house at noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing, but there wasn't anything definite, so I went back to the shop and as I went back to the shop this fellow in the TV shop said, "Why don't you come in and get a TV set and set it up in your shop in there and watch it?" So, I went in and got a TV set and the name didn't mean anything to me when they first mentioned the name.

Mr. JENNER. The name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over here--the first I remember seeing him to recognize that I had saw the face before was about--over there around 5 o'clock, when I saw him over at the jail or something and I seen him when they come out there and when he looked toward the cameras.

I didn't say anything to anybody. I had before told them, you know, what I said was just a gag--I said, "You can't tell. That guy might live here in Irving." You know how guys pop off or something, but I didn't know a thing about it. I was just going on, but anyhow, when that come on there, there was several in the shop and so I decided when I saw his picture--I remembered him coming in the shop and I just knew that. It finally dawned on me where I had saw him. I knew where he lived. Actually, I knew where the station wagon was that was parked, that I saw him and this lady in, so I just took out of the shop and told the boy, I said, "I'm going to run to the house and I'll be back in a minute."

So, I drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within 4 blocks of that house, and knew then I was not mistaken, that that was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when I came back to the shop--when I got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me up there and said they saw Cliff up there and everybody in that community knows me. When we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about it. All three of the barbers in there have cut his hair, but I cut it more, I guess, than the rest of them did. I think the boy on the front chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of times, but I think I cut his hair three or four times. I don't know just exactly because since then--I have backed up and looked at it and tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just the way it was--when he would come in, he was always disgruntled, and the only time I ever saw him smile--he had on a pair of yellow house shoes and I never saw any like them before.

Mr. JENNER. Sneakers?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and I admired them and I said, "Them looks expensive," and he said, "They are not."

He said, "I gave a dollar and a half for them." I said, "My goodness, where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" And he said, "Down in Old Mexico."

Mr. JENNER. Down in Old Mexico?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And I said, "Man, I'd like to have a pair of them because I have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough that I could build that shoe up and he said, "Well, I'll get you a pair the next time I'm down there," and that is the only time he ever was nice and polite--in the conversation, any time anything would come up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled.

I remember him particularly one time. The barber in the front chair, one Saturday morning, he cut his hair. You know, the barber chair is only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between that and the sink. Well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his hair.

In other words, what he was trying to do--fixing to or wanting to, he just pushed him out. He was just rude and we all remembered that time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or less highstrung type of guy. I mean he is a real good fellow but you wouldn't want to push him too far and I remembered that real well, and I saw him--the only time I remember seeing him, you know, other than just going in the grocery store across the street, Mr. Hutchison's food market, and I was down at the drugstore one night, down at Williamsburg's and he was in there.

Mr. JENNER. Williamsburg's--that's in Irving?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it's down on Rock Island and Rogers Road. And, why I remembered seeing him in there, I knew I couldn't understand his wife, and that was before--I believe it was before she had her baby. The best I remember she was pregnant.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen her before?

Mr. SHASTEEN. That's the only time I had ever saw her, that I remember. You know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but I didn't pay any attention. Sometimes there were two women with him and I assumed it was Mrs. Paine, but Mrs. Paine has never been in the shop. I have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the corner and I'm trying to think of his name----

Mr. JENNER. On the fifth?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And Westbrook--that old gentleman, I knew him for years, but I don't never call his name and I can't think of it now to save my neck. I would know it if I hear it called, but anyhow, you know, I've stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. I've got some rent houses, you know, and I would get out of the shop and I would go by and see them and I would come by this fellow's house and I would stop there and I saw Mrs. Paine out in the yard and I know all of the people that live around there, nearly, around the Paine's house, but I never had any connection with Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine.

Them is the things there about Oswald that I personally, you know, that I ever paid any attention to and one other time--when the boy in the middle chair cut his hair. It was on Friday night and it was about 5 or 10 minutes to 7, the best I remember. Now, why I am saying this is the fact that I was going to a football game. My shop has a door in the back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and I change clothes back there, and I had the door but, as he came in the front door, I started out--I went out the back. The next morning this boy that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but the boy that works there, and I slipped off and went to the football game--business had kind of slowed up about that time. But anyhow, he really was inquisitive as to where I went. He wanted to know where I was going and what I was going to do--he asked this guy cutting his hair. You see, he didn't think nothing about it then. He just thought maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there.

Of course, there is some other things that happened but I could kick my own self for. There was a 14-year-old boy come in with him a few times, and--not every time, but I know he has been in there as much as two or three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about 3 or 4 days before this incident happened. This kid was in the shop----

Mr. JENNER. Three or four days before November 22?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. This boy was in the shop and the boy in the front chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there is this old saying, "If you haven't heard this you haven't been around barbershops." The guys are always talking about we spend too much money overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is going. They talk that in the barbershop and you hear it until you want to run.

Mr. JENNER. That's right, they solve all the problems of the world.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best I remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there work the night shift, and I think they go to work around 3:30 or 4 o'clock, so, I know it was around 3 or 2:30, or 3.

Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and this kid was in here.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; what I am saying is--after they were doing all this talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. However, I try to keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business and all this talk was going on and I could tell he was listening and directly he said, "I can tell you when you will stop all of this greed and everything."

And I said, "What do you mean, son?" And, he said, "Well, when you have one leader over everyone else." And, he said, leader--he didn't just say country. I remember that--how he said it. And, I said, "What do you mean 'one leader'"? And he said, "Well, when you don't have a leader in every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another" and he said, "Another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going to quit having wars and all this junk." And I said, "Where in the world did you get that kind of stuff?"

He never did answer me, but it made me so--if I knew then what I know now, I would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. Instead, it made me mad, just to be honest about it--I would like to have took one of them razor straps and tore him up. If he had been a 14-year-old boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he got up and left the shop and I haven't heard him since, and I didn't find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. The anger in him saying that is where I did it, and I--the guy that talks like that, I know one thing I should, as Mr. Odum told me, I should have found out where he lived, where he went to school or something, but I didn't do it. It just made me so mad the thing I wanted him to do was get out of there.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum is the FBI agent?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he's one of them, and I know Mr. Odum--he came back. He wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come back several times and I met him several times--I don't know. I will be honest with you--I don't--I know how to call him at any time, but that's where your old temper gets away with you. I realize now that I should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything back to him--I didn't have to agree with him, but I could have found out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and I never give it a thought.

Just like Oswald--I owned the shop and naturally I wanted to see every head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy like Oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude I felt, but I know I was wrong about it, but it's done and there ain't nothing I can do about it.

I just have watched and watched and I don't know a soul to ask, because Oswald is dead and he's the only one I ever saw that kid with--he is the only one that I ever saw that kid with and I don't remember seeing him since that time--I don't know who he was any more than nothing.

Mr. JENNER. How many times--you personally, now, without someone else having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall when he was in your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The 14-year-old boy?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Three times--I know. In other words, I know he came with Oswald the night I'm talking about when he wanted to know where I was going and I went to the back door. You see, I seen them coming in and I did hurry to get out the back door.

Mr. JENNER. The boy came in?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He was with him that night and he was with him one other time.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix that particular time?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe 3 weeks before that night.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the night you say you were going out to the football game--when was that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It was Friday night and this was the last time Oswald came in and I'm just saying this as near as I think, but I think it was--in other words--was it Thursday or Friday that the President was killed?

Mr. JENNER. Friday the 22d.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was probably 2 weeks before that.

Mr. JENNER. Two weeks before that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And it was about Monday night before that when the kid--it could be a week's difference there, but I don't think it is.

Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. This football game incident occurred, you think, 2 weeks prior?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the evening of the 8th of November?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe that's right, just as near right as I can get it.

Mr. JENNER. That was a high school football game on Friday night, as I remember?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; like I say, it could have possibly been 3 weeks prior to that, but I'm almost sure it wasn't. I'm so nearly sure--I would say it was almost for sure.

Mr. JENNER. It could possibly have been the 1st of November but you are pretty sure that it was the 8th?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I just nearly knew it was the 8th, I think it was the 8th and I'll tell you why I think it was the 8th.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he got a haircut about every 2 weeks, and I don't think he ever went over 2 weeks--he either got a haircut on Friday night or Saturday morning, and in running that back through my mind, and I thought about it then and I have since.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion was this 14-year-old boy with him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the football game?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you did see him and you did see the 14-year-old boy on that occasion?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you know of your own knowledge.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Buddy Lowe, the one that just works part time.

Mr. JENNER. The new man--the middle chair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning, you know, about it and I wondered why I didn't think something about the character, but the next morning, he said, "Man, that guy was really inquisitive about where you were going last night." That guy that come in with him. Of course, we don't know his name from Adam and we have lots of customers that we don't know their names.

Mr. JENNER. When he came in with the 14-year-old boy, did the 14-year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. He just sat in the shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He just come with him. I assumed, and I'm just saying this because I haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than with Oswald, that he doesn't live in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know, in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and when I see schoolkids. I'm always kind of wondering if I'm ever going to see him again and I never, had never saw that kid since.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that boy since?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut every 2 weeks?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Either on Friday night or on Saturday morning?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And there were occasions when you personally cut his hair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I think I cut it--I know of three times that I cut it and I might have cut it more than that, but I don't think that I did because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss knowing him when he is in your chair.

Mr. JENNER. You cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right?

Mr. SHASTEEN. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time----

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I would say we cut his hair five or possibly six times.

Mr. JENNER. Five or six times?

Mr. SHASTEEN. At least.

Mr. JENNER. Five and possibly six?

Mr. SHASTEEN. At least--being in the barber business and all and studying people and all, they might go an extra week, but ordinarily, you know, in cutting their hair, you can tell about how long they've gone--in other words, if you knew how they cut it before, you can tell just about how long they have gone for a haircut, and that's what I was referring to a while ago, and it was about 2 weeks before that, and the only times I can remember definitely out of the five times and possibly six he was in my shop--I'd say that all the five or six times was in succession either, it might have been--he may have missed some haircuts and one or two in between somewhere in there.

Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean he might have had his hair cut somewhere else?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I'm just trying to figure out this 22d and the 8th--did this hair-cutting go back into the summer?

Mr. SHASTEEN. You know, that's--like I say, that's a saying--to point back, and you know, just to say that that is the first time this guy has come in here--I just can't pinpoint the first time. In other words, it has been hard and I have tried to think, especially after I got that call yesterday evening to come over here. I tried to run that back through my mind and I wouldn't say when was the first time he was in there and of course we have talked about it--me and the barbers, and it seemed to me like there was a dead spot in there. Sometime--maybe a month or 6 weeks that we might not have saw him, be the first time I cut his hair, but the last three haircuts--it seemed to me like he was pretty regular.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He was pretty regular--at the last three.

Mr. JENNER. So, if you had a dead spot, allowing for--let's say getting a haircut somewhere else occasionally, or not coming in precisely at the end of every 2-week period and having in mind that your present recollection is at least five or six occasions, that would run it back into the summertime?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it was. In other words, 2 or 3 or 4 months that we had been seeing him, but I don't know just exactly to the date or nothing.

Mr. JENNER. On how many of these occasions would you say--does your recollection serve you--as to whether he was accompanied by this 14-year-old boy?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Twice--in other words--the only times I remember seeing the boy was twice when he was with him. He was with him the night he got the haircut, the last time he was in the shop, and he was with him before that, the time before that this kid was with him. The two last times he was in the shop, this boy was with him, and that's the only time I ever saw the boy with him, but then about--in other words, what I am saying, he came in on Friday, was--we'll say it is the 8th there and then a week from this coming Monday the boy was in and got a haircut, but Oswald wasn't with him. The boy came in by himself and that tries to contradict what I said that I don't think he lived in Irving, but why I said I don't think he lived in Irving, I have never saw him before and I have been there 4 years and I have seen so many kids grow up and I know their names, but I know their faces, but I just have never saw him before, and that's one of those times that you are sorry that you, like I said, let your temper get away. Since then I have really wished--if I had done something, because this kid in my estimation, even though he is warped in his thinking, and I think he is warped, he could be helped if somebody could get ahold of him, but I was the one that had an opportunity to try to and I let it slip.

Mr. JENNER. What do you charge for a haircut?

Mr. SHASTEEN. $1.25.

Mr. JENNER. And that is cash on the barrelhead, isn't it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. I tell you that much--like somebody comes in and wants to know if they can get a free haircut, and when somebody goes to giving you something, you had better watch out--you had better be careful.

Mr. JENNER. And you manage the till?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, no, sir; each one of us, we all have our same drawers. I don't have a cash register, we have drawers, and that way, if they give the wrong change back, it's not anything out of my pocket.

Mr. JENNER. You cut hair and you have two----

Mr. SHASTEEN. I have one full time and one part time.

Mr. JENNER. You have three chairs?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasions you saw this man would you describe his appearance so far as his attire is concerned? How was he dressed?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The best I remember is that he had on some kind of coveralls, nearly every time he came in.

Mr. JENNER. Coveralls?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he wore unionalls or coveralls, you know, sir. They were G.I., of some description and they were green or a khaki-colored. The only time he wasn't dressed that way when he came in the shop was the night I went to the football game and that night he had on a pair of old worn out dress pants of some kind, they were dark, and he had on a sports shirt with his shirttail out.

Mr. JENNER. Let me get at these coveralls--would you describe them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They buttoned down the front.

Mr. JENNER. They buttoned down the front and they had sleeves--it was a one-piece unit?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And covers you from top to bottom, full sleeves?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, one pair--one time I remember--he had pretty hairy arms. I remember that about him, you know, he had black hair on his arms, and one time he had on short sleeves. These coveralls had the sleeves cut off and they were ragged--I mean--they were long sleeves originally but they had just been chopped off. He is the type of guy that when you met him you couldn't hardly forget him. I'll say that. I mean, there is just something about him and I think I could say that for all three of us that worked there in the shop that every time he came in--we would ask him to come back, but right down deep we didn't want him back.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shave?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shampoo?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing but a haircut?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Just a haircut.

Mr. JENNER. And what color did you say these coveralls were?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, they were either--I don't know what color you call them old dungarees. You know, them old combat coveralls that the Army wears. That's what they were. Now, somebody, I believe that Mr. Odum is the one that asked me was they Marine coveralls or Army or something like that, and that, I don't have any idea on.

Mr. JENNER. They were the military type?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They were the military type. They wasn't the kind you just go down to the dry goods store and buy. I know that. He may have bought them at a surplus store for all I know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were there occasions you saw this man that you have in mind on the street when he didn't come into your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, I saw him going to the grocery store when he didn't come to the shop.

Mr. JENNER. And you occasionally saw him--is the grocery store across the street?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That's Hutch's Market?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he dressed on those occasions?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I think most usually, like I said, the only time I ever saw him with anything but those coveralls on was that night he came in the shop--he had those on--those old coveralls on when he was over there and another thing, they were big for him. I always noticed they were big enough for him and somebody else.

Mr. JENNER. They were very loose-fitting?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And even on those occasions when you saw him across the street at Hutch's, he had the coveralls, the military-type coveralls on?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; of course. He could have went in there times I didn't see him. And I don't know how many times I saw him but I have seen him over there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I just want the times that you saw him.

Mr. SHASTEEN. I wouldn't even commence to guess--probably three or four times over there.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him about three or four times across the street?

Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words, his store sits over here and my shop is here and these glasses, lot of them down here, a lot of times if somebody has been in the shop that you are paying attention to, you can even see them in the back mirrors, back there and he--and you just notice and you are always looking at the front door. I mean, since I own the shop I ask everybody in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the chair next to the window?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I have the back chair.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't cut the young man's hair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he was in the front chair--the front barber chair with Mr. Glover.

Mr. JENNER. And would you describe this young man to me, how was he dressed?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he had on blue jeans and they fit tight and he had on an old striped shirt. I remember him just like I see a picture over there right now and he was a husky kid, he wasn't what you call fat, but he was strong--broad-shouldered--he had a real full, and when I say full, I don't mean a round fat face, he was a wide-faced kid. You know, he was a nice looking kid. I mean, if he had had the personality and the teaching and the understanding to go with his looks, he could have done anything he wanted to do, but his personality to me made him look terrible and what he thought, and naturally when somebody disagrees with you to the point you get angry with them, you don't think much of their looks, but if you bring it down to his looks, he was blue-eyed, blonde-headed--he was not a light blonde he was a dark blonde. In fact a lot of people might call him brown-headed. But he wasn't nobody's dummy because a 14-year-old boy can't spit out--I wouldn't attempt to say just how he said everything, but the things that struck me when he belittled our country and our leaders as a whole--I might disagree with our leaders but I'll stick up for them when it comes time--down to the point.

Mr. JENNER. Sure, and you have a distinct recollection, do you, that there were occasions when you saw this man in the coveralls over at Hutch's Market that he was accompanied by somebody else?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you recognize any of the persons who were accompanying him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I wouldn't say I did because most of the time--they headed--they got out of the car and we saw their backs, and I would see him and I just knew it was him. Once you cut somebody's hair that close you are close enough so that you know them outside or when you see them.

Mr. JENNER. So, you're not in a position, I take it, then, to say that you have a distinct recollection that Mrs. Paine accompanied them at anytime?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, that part of it I would have to take for granted because they were in his car. Now, she, I understand through one of the men who questioned me out at the shop, said he never did drive her car. Again, I'm going to disagree because I know that he did. He drove it up there and got a haircut.

Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white--it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions when you have a recollection as to his being accompanied by more than one person?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; that's what I said--I saw him and two ladies get out and go in the store.

Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions did you see that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I was trying to think of that coming over here and I know of twice and one of the times that I'm saying--it was the next morning after he had gotten a haircut the night I went to the football game, the next morning they were over to the store. You see, I open up early around 7 in the morning and it was 8 o'clock, or so, not knowing the exact hour. I would say it was 8 o'clock or 8:30 when they were over at the store that Saturday morning.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the 9th of November?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; because one reason it made me remember that, I had just come back--I had just come back from across the street to get some cigarettes and they come up and pulled in and I walked over and naturally I looked back across the street and I saw them getting out and he wasn't driving at that time. I will agree but whenever I saw him come with somebody else in the car he wasn't driving, but occasionally he drove himself up there to get a haircut and Mr. Odum says, "Now, that contradicts with some of the other information." I said, "I can't help what it contradicts with, that's just the fact and that's it."

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him driving up that he had the 14 year-old boy with him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; the night he got the haircut.

Mr. JENNER. The night of November 8?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; you see the difficulty was, I was wanting to get out of giving a haircut and I had just gotten through with a guy, and I was trying to get my tools put up and they pulled up in front and I kind of left them half cocked, half cleaned up, and I ran back in the closet to try to get away, because I saw there was two of them, you see, and I figured they both would want a haircut. When they pulled up with the headlights and I saw two get out I figured they both would want a haircut.

Mr. JENNER. This was night, was it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it was dark?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; it was done dark outside--I couldn't tell who they were when they drove up but he was driving that night and I was hurrying trying to get out and I went out the back door, because ordinarily, if there had been two, one of them would have wanted me to cut his hair and the other one would want the other boy to, and I thought, well, maybe they can wait and let me go to the football game. It's hard for me to get away for a football game and that night was when the boy was with him and he drove up there.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall bring interviewed by FBI Agent Berry on the 3d of December?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. And he is from Oklahoma, I believe. He came on the 4th, I mean on the 2d, and came back on the 3d.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall saying at that time that you had a recollection that he had been at your shop for the purpose of obtaining a haircut for the past 2 or 3 months?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when was the occasion in point of time that this business respecting the yellow shoes occurred--how far prior to that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words on the 8th there, he got a haircut on a Friday night.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. SHASTEEN. And I would say it was 2 or 3 weeks before that on Saturday morning, because I was the only one in the shop and he was the first one there that morning.

Mr. JENNER. On reflection, you fix it as 2 to 3 weeks on a Saturday morning prior to November 8?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That would take us back to--that would be either the 25th of October or the 18th of October?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Possibly; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could it have been 2 to 3 months prior?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe so, not when he had the shoes on, the house shoes on that morning, because the thing that made me remember that was the fact that it seemed like I'd found something he agreed with me on. He even smiled about this; you know, he had a good look on his face when I complimented his house shoes.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day was this?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, it was probably 6:45 in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. It was a Saturday morning?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that when he interviewed you on the 3d of December 1963, that your faint recollection of Oswald was when he appeared in the shop, your shop on a Saturday, "2 or 3 months ago at 6:30 in the morning," when you had just opened your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. The first time I remember him was early one morning.

Mr. JENNER. And that you remembered him particularly because on this particular occasion he was wearing house shoes which you considered out of the ordinary?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, he wore house shoes every time he come over there in the mornings. I think he may have that a little bit crossed there when he and I talked about it.

Mr. JENNER. And that you also said you had commented to Oswald concerning the house shoes and suggested that they must be quite expensive and Oswald said, "No; not where I bought them," and you stated that he said he had purchased the shoes in Old Mexico for only a dollar and a half?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice there is an inconsistency there--you were firm that the house shoes incident occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior to November 8, but in reporting this to Agent Berry on the 3rd of December, you stated it occurred 2 to 3 months prior thereto.

Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe--to tell you the truth, I think in the round of the talking, I think he just taken that for granted. I don't believe on that morning--what we were talking about when I said what made me remember it--like even the night when I saw his picture on television and all, was the fact that that's the only time, about his house shoes, is the only time he ever was agreeable--I'll put it that way, in other words, but he didn't talk much then. In other words, when that was over he just hushed.

Mr. JENNER. This hasn't been called to your attention, but is it your testimony then, as I understand it, that you are firm that the incident occurred 2 to 3 weeks prior to November 8 rather than 2 to 3 months and you think Agent Berry misinterpreted it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He either misinterpreted what I said----

Mr. JENNER. Or jumped to a conclusion?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these coveralls a little bit further--they were full length?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did they zipper or button down the front?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, that I wouldn't--you know, to make a statement to say I knew, I wouldn't say, but I would almost say that they buttoned. At least they had a button at the top.

Mr. JENNER. And did he normally have them buttoned up to the top, or did he have them open at the throat?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he had them open, but another thing--you know--there are little things, like we get to thinking about now--I know that these old coveralls--he wore them like that [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. He wore them with the collar up?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and just flopping out.

Mr. JENNER. And you remember one occasion when the coveralls, while they were long sleeved, somebody had sheared off the sleeves on a particular pair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just ragged, they were just chopped off.

Mr. JENNER. Otherwise, the sleeves were always long down to his wrists?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you this--one of the barbers said his head was dirty when he cut his hair, but he was always clean when I worked on him.

Mr. JENNER. It's hard to explain.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe these house shoes, please?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, yes; they were--I wish I could find something--they were a darker yellow than this right here [indicating]. And they had a much tanner sole on them--it was almost what you call a brown sole. It wasn't a leather, it wasn't a rubber, it was like a neoprene.

Mr. JENNER. The soles were darker than the uppers?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were they firm leather, or soft or pliable?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They were soft and nice, but they were sturdy house shoes. Of course--like I said, I build a shoe up--one shoe and they made me notice them, and they were the type you could have built one up and they would still have stood up and been nice.

Mr. JENNER. Were these house shoes that had flat soles without heels?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes--they didn't have no heels--they may have had a little heel, but I mean they didn't have an extra heel, because I looked at them good. I mean, I wasn't interested in them until he said he got them from Old Mexico, and I knew that was out.

Mr. JENNER. Were they the pull-on type or lace type?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were the--just the pull-on type.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any type of elastic in them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No--no elastic--they were just like loafers to a degree, only they were nice shoes--it was just a slip-on and they had a spur piece in the back.

Mr. JENNER. A spur piece?

Mr. SHASTEEN. You know what I mean--the back wasn't so flexible--it was firm--a fitted heel. They were just real nice.

Mr. JENNER. They had a reasonably firm or higher heel?

Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words--what I'm talking about--up on the back part of them.

Mr. JENNER. The back part is what I'm talking about.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What we call the heel of the shoe--the back of the shoe, not the heel you step on.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes--this part here and then they had a round thing, you know, like this here [indicating] only it went out and dropped down to a point out here and had a seam sewed around the top, whatever it was.

Mr. JENNER. Like a moccasin type?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they looked like a moccasin to a degree and these loafers, as you called them, but they were in between.

Mr. JENNER. Were they perfectly plain other than the moccasin sewing?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe they were--they didn't have no--that's the reason I thought they would have been from Mexico is they, if they had had a lot of trimmings on them or something like that, but they didn't have.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have fasteners of any type on them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; that's why I liked them. They were just something I could've jumped in.

Mr. JENNER. No metal fasteners?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They didn't have nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Or even leather fasteners?

Mr. SHASTEEN. If somebody would find them I would still give two and a half for them.

Mr. JENNER. How many haircuts did he get----

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Six or seven, is that what you said?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he could have possibly gotten seven haircuts but I think about six haircuts is what he got. It could have possibly been five.

I know personally three times I cut his hair and I know that the front guy cut his hair one time, Mr. Glover, and Mr. Law cut his hair one time and Buddy--he might have cut it one other time and if he did that would've made six.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling Agent Berry that in all this man had obtained six or seven haircuts at your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I told him it was possibly six or seven, you know, in other words--he didn't pin me down to just exactly--he wanted to know if I thought it was and I told him it could have been seven times.

Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I believe--I don't believe he ever got eight haircuts in there--I don't believe it could have been over seven.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is that the agent reports as you said that Oswald had obtained seven or eight haircuts at your shop.

Mr. SHASTEEN. You see, I told him about the times I remembered and he said, "Could he possibly have been in here more than that?" And I said, "Sure he could have possibly been in here more than that, but to have an actual remembrance of him--I wouldn't."

Mr. JENNER. But in any event, your present recollection, after thinking it through further, is that it was six, and it might even have been as few as five?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It could have been five, but I personally know of five times he was in there and like I told him, he could have been in there two or three other times when I wasn't in there, because sometimes, it's not very often I do, but occasionally Mr. Law will open up in the morning and I won't be there right on time. Because, like I said, I went to a football game and that--there could have been other times that he came in that I wasn't there, but I asked Buddy did he ever remember cutting his hair and he said he thought he did cut it another time than the time--so if he did, there was six times, and of course, Mr. Glover, he doesn't keep up with whose hair he cuts as much as some of the others--he's not a friendly type guy, but Buddy said he might have cut his hair more than once.

The things that made us know when he cut his hair is like when Mr. Glover cut his hair, he went around and instead of using his back bar to look in the mirror and comb his hair, he went down to the one at the middle chair and just rudely pushed out of the way and he got up there and combed his hair and turned his water on, you know, and got some more oil and put on it, on his hair, and he didn't say thank you or excuse me or nothing. He just pushed in there--those things make you remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give you a tip?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever give any of the other barbers a tip?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is it customary for your customers to give you a tip?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or customers to give your barbers a tip?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, naturally, they get more tips than I do because I own the shop. It would be a very small percentage, because in a community like that they just expect to pay what the price is.

Mr. JENNER. And no tips?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; you know, you might get 50 cents or a dollar a day--something like if somebody might pitch something up there and say, "Get you some coffee." It's not that type of a barber shop--it's not a hotel type or anything like that or a bus station type.

Mr. JENNER. Did this man have any reaction to the haircuts you gave him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, instead of saying--I get tickled thinking about it--I don't mean it's funny, but it is irritating. I mean, it's funny since it's over, but he never did say, "That looks nice," or "That's all right." He would say, "Aw, that's pretty good, that will do until I get another one or that will do for this time." He never did say, "That's a good haircut." I do remember him saying, "Take a 32d off of the temple." Well, you can't take a 32d off of a man's hair, you know.

Mr. JENNER. He did come back then?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; we have talked about that--I don't care if we put it on the record--it's the truth with us barbers--we have laughed about it, but he's not the only one that said, "Take a third of it," you know. We laughed about his saying, "Take a 32d," or he would say, "Take a 16th off of the top," or something. I do remember him saying them things.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was just kidding about it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I don't know but to barbers that's silly, you know. It's just ridiculous for a man to say "Take a 32d," or raise his temples a 32d or take a 16th or something off of the top. You cut hair like the shingles on a house. You cut it to where it will feather in and not leave gaps. If you pulled it all up and cut it all the same length and turned it back down on your head, you would have a mess.

Mr. JENNER. It would look pretty bad?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It sure would.

Mr. JENNER. It might look like some of the haircuts I get, occasionally.

Mr. SHASTEEN. But those things--I believe that news reporter--I have forgotten which she was, but she asked me a while ago a few things about him and I said, "He's just the type of guy you couldn't forget but you just hoped he never come back."

But she wasn't--she wanted to know what kind of nature he was or something like that. That's what makes barbering interesting--you meet all kinds.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; I'm sure you do.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. And like you were talking about there he came back--one time one of the barbers--now this time I don't know, more know which time it was than anything, but there was somebody sitting out in the chair, and they made a remark about him saying take a certain amount off and after he left, I said, "Well, we get that amount off." And this fellow said, "How in the world do you do that?" And I said, "Well, we satisfy him--and if he is real satisfied, when he leaves, he comes back." I always make dry cracks and things like that, that breaks the monotony in the shop and I have practiced it, and it's hard for me to be serious sometimes, you know, about things, and you just have to break the monotony in the barber shop or people would get in there and get soured on the world.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Robert Davis has come in and he is a special assistant attorney general of Texas, and this is Mr. Shasteen, Mr. Davis. He owns and operates a barber shop in Irving, Tex.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes--Mr. Shasteen.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did these coveralls have any pockets in them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--what do they look like, looking at them just the full front?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the full front?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; as I'm looking at you now across the desk here.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, the ones that were cut off at the sleeves, I can remember the most. They just had some old pockets up here--[indicating].

Mr. JENNER. On each breast area?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a large pocket, large patch pocket?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; they were just outside patch pockets and pockets on the front were patch pockets, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean at the hip on either side?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They had some front pockets on either side.

Mr. JENNER. Just one pocket or two?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, you pin me down until--to say that, I don't know. I noticed the top, but I did notice the hip pockets they had two hip pockets on them. When he got his billfold out, I just wondered how in the world, if he ever sat down he didn't lose the thing. You know, they were big enough--that's why I said they were big enough for two. They sagged and the pockets just leaned back and you could have just walked up and reached in there and got his billfold and never touched him.

Mr. JENNER. None of these pockets had flaps or buttons on them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I think the two of them up here maybe had a flap.

Mr. JENNER. The two top ones had a flap?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The hip pockets didn't--they didn't have no flap or button.

Mr. JENNER. They were patch pockets, too?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And these coveralls were so loose fitting that it made the pockets hang down?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; they were just real loose. Even if you had a belt on them that pulled them around or something--I just couldn't stand to wear something shuffling through it like that.

Mr. JENNER. And the best of your recollection is that there were two breast pockets and at least one hip or side pocket.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I'm sure they had side pockets in front.

Mr. JENNER. Were those also patch?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe they were.

Mr. JENNER. And they had two hip rear patch pockets?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual about the pockets that drew your attention, I'm talking about the front ones, now?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; not anything unusual about the front ones, but the hip pockets were gapped open and sagged down.

Mr. JENNER. Because these coveralls were so ill fitting?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Because they were just too big--they could have had about 6 inches cut out of them.

Mr. JENNER. You barbers are generally pretty talkative. Did you seek to engage this man in conversation when he came into your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. You couldn't do it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, yes; naturally--she don't need to write this down because this ain't going to help you a bit what I'm fixing to say, but the theory I work on as a barber--if a man gets in a chair, and I tell my other barbers that, if he gets in a chair and you strike up a conversation with him and he doesn't want to talk, don't talk to him--you say just as little as you can.

Mr. JENNER. That makes sense.

Mr. SHASTEEN. But if the guy wants to talk, then talk to him, if he--if you can talk to him on his level or understand the thing he's talking about, but if a man gets in your chair and he doesn't want to talk, you can find it out without him turning around and saying, "Cut my hair, I didn't come in here to have a bull session." I mean, that's barber shop language, and I try to practice that, and nearly any time he come in I would mention the weather or a football game--I mean, a barber has to get up and read the paper every morning and turn the radio on because everybody that comes in, if you're not up on the latest things that's happening, you're going to be sitting back there and you can't talk to them.

I usually run through the paper real hurriedly and see the headlines at least and I turn the radio on and you just couldn't strike up a conversation with him and I guess if I had ever mentioned politics to him, but we try to avoid that as much as possible in the shop. Had I ever talked politics with him, I might have gotten him on that but since he was the type guy he was, I never cared to talk politics with him.

Mr. JENNER. Well, in any event, he evidenced no interest in the bull session, as you described it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is that true of your helpers?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The front chair barber--he is the type barber that doesn't talk a lot anyway and he would talk about fishing or wrestling a little bit, but I don't think he ever said half a dozen words to him altogether. He told him how he wanted his hair cut.

You might attempt to ask me what kind of haircut he wore.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. SHASTEEN. You could just name it, because he didn't wear it long and he didn't wear it short. It was almost short enough to stand up but it was too long to stand up. He just wore a rough shod haircut because many times I thought, "Boy, you sure ought to let this grow out up here where it will lay down and comb nice or either cut it off where it would stand up." But like I say, he wanted that little bit taken off. I tell you what he did do--He did try to make the barber work all he could. He seemed like he wanted you to do all the work and naturally, that's another thing, I have a bad attitude towards some people. If a guy doesn't ask me to do much, I'll do a right smart, but if he thinks I owe him something, he won't get any extras.

Mr. JENNER. What color hair did this man have?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, he was dark headed--I wouldn't say he was real black, you know, what I mean, he wasn't jet black, but most people would call him black-headed.

Mr. JENNER. What color would you say your hair was?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Mine is dark brown, and what is not grey up it's covered up with oil.

Mr. JENNER. What color would you say mine is?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, now I think your hair is--it's a shade of black. It's not a dark black. I would say his hair was about the color of yours--it might have been a little bit darker. It might have been a little smuttier. You see, hair is a funny thing--a guy can be dark headed and if he puts oil on it, he looks real black and if he washes the oil out it's got a smutty look and he never did wear much oil because about the only time he ever come in the shop, he never had his hair combed and he never had any oil on it or nothing and naturally after we cut his hair and put a little oil on it, it made it look darker.

Mr. JENNER. It darkened it up?

Mr. SHASTEEN. My hair is a whole lot darker with a little oil on it. Now, this fellow here, referring to Mr. Davis----

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, you're talking about?

Mr. SHASTEEN. His hair, if you took the oil off of his hair and washed it out with some kind of heavy shampoo, it would almost be what you call a blonde or light red, is that right?

Mr. DAVIS. (No response.)

Mr. JENNER. How much hair did he have? A full head of hair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. To me, he didn't have a full head of hair. It was rather short and thin around here by the temples and the way his hair lies back, he would have been bald if he had been 40 years old.

Mr. JENNER. He had hair around the center, but he was losing his hair around the sides of the forehead?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; there was just a little crease that started back here. Naturally, a barber would notice that because the hair is much finer back here, you see, than it was down here [indicating]. In other words, I have as much hair as I ever had but it's just so fine you can't see it and that's what happens to a guy when he gets bald-headed. The hair is still there but it just doesn't grow. It's just little fuzz, and that hair of his, in another 5 or 6 years he would have been bald-headed. You can believe it.

I can tell you another thing--I don't know whether I told this fellow or not, may have. There are little things you can't remember, but he just had a hard look, just sitting in the chair. I'll tell you this much--if a guy comes in the barbershop and he's got a pretty good disposition and he smiles and speaks to people, every barber will want to cut his hair, but if a guy comes in there and he kind of looks grouchy, in barber language we call it soldiering on one another. We might work on a guy just a little bit longer if this guy's next so somebody else will have to get him. He's just the type guy you don't care about working on. I mean, he was just that type. I believe I can speak for all three of the barbers because I have heard their opinion about him. They didn't care if he never came back.

And, he never helped the shop. Well, you will say, how can a customer help the shop? When you ask a man to come back, when he starts out the door and if he says, "Thank you," or "I'll be back," or "I'll see you in 2 weeks,"--that's the language that is used around the barbershop, that helps the feeling at the barbershop, but if ask a guy going out the door to come back and he didn't even grunt, you know, that just lowers its morale in a barbershop right quick.

I know that customers don't think about that, but we as barbers--that's our business and we watch that and you would be surprised, if a guy comes in and you give a haircut and you thank him, when he pays you, and the barber ordinarily when he leaves for that door, when he starts out, he asks him to come back and if he says, "I'll see you in 2 weeks," or "Thank you for asking me to come back," it just builds up the morale in a shop, but he wasn't that type.

Mr. JENNER. I might have misled you a little bit ago--I mentioned your being interviewed on the 3d of December. The fact is that interview was on the 2d, was it not, the 2d of December?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is--why I say that, he came one day--I didn't put the dates down and I didn't try to remember them, but he came one day and I was real busy--the kids were trying to get a haircut for some program.

Mr. JENNER. The 2d of December was on a Monday?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe he came Monday and then he came back Tuesday. In other words, he came one day and he got there a little late and the kids were having their pictures made up at the school there nearby and they were sitting in there and he said, "Suppose I come back tomorrow?" He said, "I have some other places I need to go." And I told him it would be fine or I would take him in a few minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Mr. Odum interviewing at a later time, the 16th of December?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but he didn't make any notes to my knowledge, but I cut his hair.

Mr. JENNER. He made notes all right, I can tell you that.

Mr. SHASTEEN. He did--I josh and go on with Mr. Odum a lot.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Likewise a Monday?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I believe it was. I cut Mr. Odum's hair about a week and a half ago. Do you know him? (Addressing Mr. Davis.)

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. SHASTEEN. He's the type guy you like to have come in any time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall telling him on that occasion that you had never been able to identify the 14-year old boy, that this boy had been in your shop on one occasion about 2 months prior to that day, that is prior to December 16, and that would make it around the 16th of October?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, now, we--in other words, there were no customers in there, but the barbers and I think he was in there, as I told you, I think we were nearly positive about that, but if I told you I knew he was, I couldn't be sure about that.

Mr. JENNER. It was on a Wednesday or Thursday and Oswald's hair was cut on that occasion by your fellow barber, Burt Glover?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and Burt is the one that says that was on a Thursday.

Mr. JENNER. You see, this is what you told Mr. Odum, and that Glover says on the next Monday or Tuesday he cut the hair of the 14-year old boy?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that would be sometime in October?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Evidently that's the time that I don't--that wasn't the time that he made the statement at all. If he got a haircut--but, if you know Burt like I know Burt, I don't know that Burt knows that that was the boy, but he still says it is. I think it was--I wouldn't be sure about it.

Mr. JENNER. All I have in mind here is your report to Agent Odum. Then you told him at that occasion, that is, when the boy got his haircut on Monday or Tuesday, that Oswald was not in the shop but that somebody else had brought the boy to the shop.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; somebody let him out.

Mr. JENNER. Is that something Glover told you?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No. When he got his haircut, when he made the statement?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; somebody brought him and somebody picked him up, but they didn't pull right in front of the shop. They just let him out in front in the street.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice whether there was a woman or man or men that brought him to the shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I know what you're fixing to ask and I could kick my own self, but I didn't pay no attention to it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what type of automobile--did you notice it at all?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I noticed the car. Now, I'll tell you the man's name that I know--I know it is in my estimation--it was in the 1958 bracket and as the old saying is, it didn't have the wings on it. This was the thing that I noticed.

Mr. JENNER. But it wasn't the station wagon you have described?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I think it was a 1958 Ford--them there old gun-colored, it was a dark color, but it wasn't black or nothing, and that's what let him out--the kid out in front.

Mr. JENNER. But this was the occasion the boy made the remark, "There wouldn't be no peace until all the people had the same amount of possessions and that most of our trouble now is caused because the poor people have so little and the rich so much?"

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And this boy indicated peace would come when all the people had the amount of--the same amount of wealth?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And had one leader--he didn't say "ruler," he said "leader." We talked about that and noticed it after he left.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement to Agent Odum?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes. I have made it in my mind a dozen times since then--just thinking of a 14-year old boy having that kind of distilled stuff in his mind. It's not funny to me, it hurts me to see a kid with that kind of an attitude, because somebody is teaching him wrong and the thing that hurts me the most was the fact that I did have a chance to have took him and bought him a coke or took him and done something and talked to him and found out who he was and where I could have at least reasoned with him or turned him in where somebody--some of the authorities could have gotten ahold of him or anything, but it made me mad and I didn't do it. That's why we shouldn't let our tempers--you fellows are lawyers and you know that you can't let your temper get too far, but some of us people do let our tempers get away and that's one time I let mine get away. I would much rather have took him and whipped him with one of the belts or razor straps than took his money.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think of nothing else.

Do you have anything in mind to ask him, Mr. Davis?

Mr. DAVIS. No, is this person still coming, have you seen him any more--when is the last time you saw him at the shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. This boy--I never saw that boy since that day. Of course, I don't remember exactly, the exact words, you know, I was kind of angry and aggravated and then you say things, but I let him know that that was no way for anybody to feel and I told him he was just off--way off base, and I said, "I don't know where you got your learning and your thinking," but I said, "Boy, I disagree with you whole-heartedly." And I said--I have a bad habit of telling people they had better take inventory and see if they are right, and I told him, I said, "You had better take inventory and find out where you stand because you are just at the right age that you can get in a lot of trouble thinking like that."

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you what your age was?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; 39.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How old is Mr. Glover?

Mr. SHASTEEN. 32.

Mr. JENNER. And your third barber?

Mr. SHASTEEN. 39.

Mr. JENNER. That's all, and we appreciate your coming in.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I wish I could help you, but I know it doesn't help you a lot.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you helped us by telling us everything you know.

Mr. DAVIS. We surely do appreciate your coming in.

Mr. JENNER. If you wish to read your deposition and make any corrections if you think any are warranted, you may do so and sign it, if you wish, or you can waive all that if you wish to?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I couldn't read what she has been writing there.

Mr. JENNER. I take it by that that you had just as soon waive your signature and reading it over?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And signing it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Shasteen, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mr. SHASTEEN. It's good to meet you fellows.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF LEONARD EDWIN HUTCHISON

The testimony of Leonard Edwin Hutchison was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn, please?

In the testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I do.

Mr. JENNER. And you are Leonard Edwin Hutchinson?

Mr. HUTCHISON. It's Hutchison (spelling) H-u-t-c-h-i-s-o-n, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. i-s-o-n?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you live at Scandia Apartments?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Apartment No. 505, at 601 West Sixth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hutchison, the Presidential Assassination Commission appointed pursuant to Presidential Executive Order No. 11130, of November 29, 1963, and Senate and House of Representatives Joint Resolution No. 137, of the 88th Congress, is investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy here in Dallas, Tex., on the 22d of November 1963, and all of the circumstances surrounding it.

Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the joint resolution and of the Executive order?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I read them several times.

Mr. JENNER. And we are advised, from information we have, that you may have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald and his visiting in Irving, Tex., and possibly some information respecting the Paines. And we would like to inquire of you of those circumstances.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation or profession?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm a retail grocery owner, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you operate that business?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I operate the business.

Mr. JENNER. Where is your retail grocery store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. On the corner of Shady Grove and Storey Road.

Mr. JENNER. In what town?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Irving, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. That's a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And would you just tell me, in general, the nature of your market or store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I have a complete supermarket, sir--retail grocery, meat, fresh fish, produce and all necessary food items.

Mr. JENNER. Is the Paine family or Mrs. Paine a customer of your market?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a regular customer--just a drop in.

Mr. JENNER. She does, from time to time, come by the store and purchase food stuffs?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Paine--that is, would you recognize her if you saw her?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I would recognize her if I saw her.

Mr. JENNER. And you have had occasion to speak with her?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; just to speak. I try to salute everyone that comes in.

Mr. JENNER. Naturally.

Mr. HUTCHISON. That's just the business.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know where her home is located in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your market with respect to her home?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; you would turn east a block and a half--turn right, and I'm 8 blocks due south.

Mr. JENNER. You turn east a block and a half--and what cross street is that?

Mr. HUTCHISON. That is Storey, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you would go down Storey south----

Mr. HUTCHISON. To Shady Grove.

Mr. JENNER. To Shady Grove?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Approximately how many blocks?

Mr. HUTCHISON. It's 8 blocks from Fifth to Shady Grove.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have a large parking lot area?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I would consider it fairly large; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has testified with respect to attempting to teach Lee Oswald to drive an automobile, and that she went to a supermarket area, which she said was approximately 8 blocks from her home--it took her about 4 minutes, 4-1/2 minutes or 5 minutes to drive there--4 minutes, I guess.

Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe she could teach on my driveway because my driveway is three-way parking, and I don't have a lot to where she could turn, feasibly, around.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

This was, she said, on Sunday afternoons when there were no vehicles on the lot.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'm open on Sunday so she----

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you are?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I'm open on Sunday. So she couldn't--my parking lot is not filled every Sunday, but I don't believe she would have practiced on my parking lot. It would have been noticed--I would say that.

Now, I work until around 3 o'clock on every Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Every Sunday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; so it would have had to have been after then and, feasibly, I don't believe she could teach anyone to drive in my parking lot.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Were you aware that sometime in the fall of 1963, that a lady was residing with Mrs. Paine who was a Russian emigre?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware in the fall of 1963, that the man we now know as Lee Harvey Oswald was visiting in the Paine home on weekends?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't--I couldn't say that he was visiting there. All I can say, Mr. Jenner, is that he came into the store and bought items like--what I remember so vividly is that it was milk and cinnamon rolls early in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Milk and cinnamon rolls?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; in the morning--early. When you're not busy in the morning, you naturally acquaint yourself with people more than when you are real busy. I mean, when you are there and there's, say, three or four in the store and you're checking out, you notice people, you observe them a lot more than you do if you're real crowded.

Mr. JENNER. So, this being relatively early in the morning, it was something that arrested your attention?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Never; never.

Mr. JENNER. How often did this take place?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say I saw the boy approximately four or five times at the maximum that I can remember--four or five times. And it would be a day or two or three between. It was always in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Always?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I open at 7 o'clock in the morning, and I would say it was between 7:20 and 7:45 because it was--it just got to be a routine.

Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently as to whether these purchases or visits included midweek days? That is, let's take Monday through Thursday. Would there be any on those days?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't say. I couldn't pinpoint the day. I know that--that it was between--there would be a day or two between, or maybe three between.

Mr. JENNER. Would your memory serve you as to whether--let's take one day--there was any degree of regularity of this person's visits to your market on Monday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no--I couldn't pinpoint Monday. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday, you say. Do you recall this gentleman you have in mind ever having visited and made purchases on Sunday morning?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, sir. We do very, very little business up until 9 o'clock. They'd just be occasionally a drop-in for a, say, a package of cigarettes or something like that.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Sunday morning is very quiet, sir. I think I'd have recognized him on Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We can eliminate Sunday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what about Saturday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm not there very often on Saturday morning because I work Saturday nights. So, I couldn't--I couldn't pinpoint Saturday morning.

Mr. JENNER. And the odds are, then--let's see, we've eliminated Sunday morning--and the likelihood is that you did not see him on Saturday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So, it would be----

Mr. HUTCHISON. During the week.

Mr. JENNER. Monday through Friday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did these visits commence, if you recall?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say--uh--I came back from out of the country trip in September; so it would have had to have started late September.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your recollection as to their persistence up to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, it would have been just an occasional drop-in.

Mr. JENNER. During that period?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; during that period. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see this man at any time subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. HUTCHISON. After?

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. No, sir. I sure didn't.

Mr. JENNER. I think I asked you whether he was accompanied by anyone at anytime and you said, "No."

Mr. HUTCHISON. Only one time.

Mr. JENNER. One time?

Mr. HUTCHISON. One time. Yes. There was a Wednesday evening, he and his wife and an elderly lady were shopping in midcounters and I was stocking around a corner and I heard this blurt--uh--statement in foreign tongue. And, naturally, that would arouse your curiosity to hear somebody speaking--now, I know Spanish, and I recognize German and I recognize French--and it wasn't any of those. So, I immediately came around the counter and he was taking something away from his--this woman he was with and putting it back on the shelf and talking to her in this language.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what he was attempting to convey to her?

Mr. HUTCHISON. That he didn't want her to have it--that he took it away from her. He still had it--he still had it in her hand--I mean, she had it in her hand and he took it away from her and put it back on the shelf.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the afternoon?

Mr. HUTCHISON. That was late in the evening, sir, between--between, I would say, between 6:45 and 7:30. Because I close at 8:30 and I recognize that it was earlier. They were buying then what you would say a complete bill of groceries. They had several items in the basket.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You have the--I don't do much supermarket shopping--but it's a cart with wheels?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a cart with wheels.

Mr. JENNER. Self-service?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Self-service. Yes, sir. All my store is self-service, meat included; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You said, "This man and his wife." What led you to say that this lady or woman was his wife?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, uh--later, when her picture came on television, I--uh--I recognized her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you use the pronoun "her," you're now referring to whom?

Mr. HUTCHISON. To his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Marina Oswald?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Marina Oswald. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you describe, as best you can, your present recollection of what this man looked like?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. He was--uh--around 5 foot 10 or 10-1/2; he had a very, I would say--impressive look about him. It was always, to me, uh--to her--at that time it was a glare. He was glaring at her. And, of course, when anyone glares, their facial expressions tighten up and you just naturally observe someone like that. And it looked like--well, you wouldn't say a fit of anger, but a disgust or something out of the ordinary.

Mr. JENNER. Irritation?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; irritation would be the word. Yes. It wasn't, "You don't need that," or--of course, I couldn't understand Russian. I heard Russian of course when I was in the service in Seattle, but I didn't recognize the language. But he was telling her and it was in irritation--and he put it back on the shelf.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, I might do this at the moment--what is your age?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm 50.

Mr. JENNER. And are you a native of the Dallas area?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was raised right down here at Waxahachie, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your formal education was what--elementary school, high school?

Mr. HUTCHISON. High school; high school education, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then, you spent some time in the service, I gather?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, you make a practice of trying to obtain a picture in your mind of all your customers?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Of every customer; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And to remember them?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I love people and I love to speak to them and I address everyone, regardless of creed, color, or anything. I always speak to them.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a mark of a good salesman--apart from your normal disposition.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I like people. That's the thing. I like people.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall how this man was attired on that occasion?

Mr. HUTCHISON. He was in slacks with just--uh--had a little jacket--uh--I would say just a common, ordinary jacket.

Mr. JENNER. There's my raincoat hanging there [indicating]. Was it about that weight or----

Mr. HUTCHISON. A little heavier; a little heavier jacket. It was----

Mr. JENNER. Was it that type of material--twill? Or was it wool or what was it?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Twill.

Mr. JENNER. Twill?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was twill.

Mr. JENNER. Short jacket?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Short jacket; yes, sir. Short jacket.

Mr. JENNER. Zippered?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Zipper--yes, sir. Because it was open. I remember that. He wore it several times. He had it on--uh--when he came in the morning. Always an open shirt, always had a--he never wore a tie. I observed that, naturally.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Describe the lady.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she had on, I would say, a print dress and she had on a coat. She had on a--not a heavy coat but a----

Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was around 5 foot 2-1/2 or 3.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the color of her hair?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. She had----

Mr. JENNER. A babushka?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No; a scarf. She had a scarf on her head. She had a white scarf.

Mr. JENNER. A white scarf?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what I mean when I say "babushka"? It's a scarf that the ladies have over their head and they tie it under their chin.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the way she wore the scarf?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the shade or color of his hair?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say that it was a kind of dark brown.

Mr. JENNER. And what about its plenitude--did he have plenty of hair or----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was--it was combed back each time. He never wore a hat. His hair was always, I would call it--in mine and your day--roached. I guess--roached back, just peeled completely back on both sides.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And as best you are able to fix it, when was this with respect to month and what part of the month--the fore part, latter part, middle part?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, that must have been the latter part of, I would say, the last 10 days of October.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And was it a midweek?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. It was in midweek, because I only work Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday nights. So, it would have had to have been a Wednesday night.

Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could it be that this visit was sometime between the 4th of October and the 15th of October?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe so. I believe it was later than that, sir. I believe, if I were to pinpoint it, I would say it was between the 15th of October and November 1.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you said there was, to your recollection, an older lady with them?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With these people? What would you judge her age to be?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was somewhere between 50 and 60.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, sir, she had on a small li'l ole hat and--uh--a fur coat. She had on a fur cont. And--uh--she said nothing. She just walks around.

Mr. JENNER. What color was her hair?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, sir; because she had this hat on. It was just the language--it was the tone and the language that he was speaking that attracted me.

Mr. JENNER. And he was speaking in Russian?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Well, it was----

Mr. JENNER. Well, at least, in a foreign language that you couldn't understand?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did the young lady say anything?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Nothing. She said nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Now--she was a young lady?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What would you judge her age to be?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say between 20 and 24.

Mr. JENNER. And his age?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'd say he looked--he at that time looked to be about 21 or 22.

Mr. JENNER. He looked younger than she?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether the elderly lady did or did not wear spectacles--or glasses?

Mr. HUTCHISON. She had glasses on. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were they a horn-rimmed type that I have and you have on?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you recollect--is this the only occasion on which you saw him----

Mr. HUTCHISON. With anyone?

Mr. JENNER. With anyone at all?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the rest of the time, it was by himself.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of their visiting that day, did you hear the elderly lady say anything?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I think you said you did not hear the young lady say anything?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she said nothing.

Mr. JENNER. And they were purchasing what you would call a--did you say a "full stock of groceries"?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe for the record what you mean by a full stock of groceries?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, a full stock of groceries is when they buy soap, soap powder, sugar, coffee, a few canned goods, milk, bread--say, a total of $15 to $20 worth of groceries is considered a bill of groceries.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and you recall that this occasion is what you have now described as a full stock of groceries?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a full stock bill of groceries.

Mr. JENNER. Not only edibles, but things to apply in and about the home?

Mr. HUTCHISON. About the house--the home; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And they were in your store, I take it then, for----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Several minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Several minutes?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. How far between then, I don't know; but from then on, I would say 20 minutes before they checked out.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for these goods?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How? With cash?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Cash. Yes, sir. There was only one other time when he tried to cash a check.

Mr. JENNER. And I'll get to that in a minute--but on this particular occasion, it was cash.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was always cash. Yes, sir. He always paid cash.

Mr. JENNER. I am interested, Mr. Hutchison, in the older lady--the older of the two ladies.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could you give me any more--draw on your imagination and see if----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was on the heavy side; I would say weight 160 or 170 pounds, and short and dumpy.

Mr. JENNER. How tall was she with respect to the gentleman and the young lady?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was--she was, of course, not as tall as the gentleman and maybe about the same height as the lady.

Mr. JENNER. The young lady?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the young lady.

Mr. JENNER. What was your judgment as to the young lady's height?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 5 feet 2-1/2 or 3.

Mr. JENNER. Relatively short?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; relatively short--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the elderly lady was approximately that height as well?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; but dumpy.

Mr. JENNER. Heavier set?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Heavier set; yes.

Mr. JENNER. What would you say was the weight of the younger lady?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 107 to 110.

Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, then?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you this--was that a busy period of time, as you recall?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, no. It wasn't too busy.

Mr. JENNER. And you were afforded plenty of opportunity, were you, to observe these people?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; yes. When I went around this aisle to hear this foreign language, I looked at them and I could see them as plain as I'm seeing you. I didn't go right down and just stare and look at them--but my aisle is only 36 feet long and they were in the middle of the aisle. So when I went around the aisle, I was within 15 feet of them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had the gentleman you're now describing been in--was one of the occasions that he'd been in in the morning?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; before.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to this event?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And on these prior occasions when he was alone, did he ever use a language which was other than English?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Mr. Jenner, he never said a word. He never spoke. I'd always speak when he came in and always thank him when he went out. And whatever the purchase was, you addressed the amount--like it was a $1.04, a $1.16, a $1.12--he'd just put the money out or get the change and walk right out the door. He never said a word.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't say hello, goodby, how are you, nice morning, it's raining--nothing at all?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; nothing. He never said a word.

Mr. JENNER. He came in, employing the self-service, picked up--let's see, cinnamon rolls--you said?

Mr. HUTCHISON. And milk.

Mr. JENNER. And milk. And you, recognizing the cost of the sales price of these items, he'd walk up to the counter, you would state x dollars or cents----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whatever the purchase was, he would hand you the change in cash----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you would give him his change if it wasn't the exact amount that he'd handed you. And he'd walk out without saying a word?

Mr. HUTCHISON. He never said a word. That was odd. I began to notice that after that happened a couple or three times. Most anyone will say, "Thank you," or "Good morning," or something; but he never said a word.

This is a friendly store, Mr. Jenner. It's not a cold store--like a chainstore or anything like that. We don't change help and it's just a--well, it's a neighborhood supermarket, is what it is.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I should bring this out; this is an independent store, it's not a chainstore?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it's independent--not a chainstore.

Mr. JENNER. And you're both the owner and the manager?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it's a neighborly neighborhood store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say there was an occasion when he attempted to cash a check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you first fix the date--I assume you can't recall the exact date--but fix the month and the time of the month.

Mr. HUTCHISON. It would be the first week in November. To the best of my recollection, it was after this incident of the buying of the bill of groceries.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And what time of day was that?

Mr. HUTCHISON. It was in the afternoon, sir, between 5 and 6 o'clock--because I'm in the cage. I have a check-cashing cage, and on busy days I go into the cage and, naturally, I cash 90 percent of the checks--especially the big checks.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, I think you've told me that you are in your store on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Nights.

Mr. JENNER. Nights?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you are there during the day every day, also?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. I run my store. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So, you are in your store in the neighborhood of the 5 o'clock period every day?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Every day; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what day of the week was this?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Friday.

Mr. JENNER. Friday?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was around 5 or 5:30?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Between 5 and 6 o'clock, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, using your own words, describe the incident, commencing giving the background.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, they line up to cash their checks.

Mr. JENNER. And you were in the cage?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was in the cage.

Mr. JENNER. And there were people lined up to cash checks?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; sometimes 8 to 10 line up--because we have Ling Electric, we have Temco, and we have Chance Vought. We also have General Motors people who live in Irving. And Friday is a big check-cashing day.

Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.

Mr. HUTCHISON. And I always step into the cage to cash checks and, naturally, I know most people who come in. And this was a two-party check.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. HUTCHISON. A two-party check means that it was not a payroll check, but a personal check given to him.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. HUTCHISON. And, as best as I can remember, it was $189--which is strictly against our rules to cash. We don't cash any two-party checks over $25.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. HUTCHISON. And so I just merely told him, "I'm sorry; I can't cash this check."

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. If I call that a personal check--is that an apt description? You call it a "two-party" check, meaning----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It's drawn by an individual and payable to an individual?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Right. That's right. An individual check payable to an individual.

Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from a payroll check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; as distinguished from a payroll check.

Mr. JENNER. And your practice is to limit your risk on that type of check to $25?

Mr. HUTCHISON. $25; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that that check was in the amount of $189?

Mr. HUTCHISON. $189; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And he finally reached the wicket, or----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the cage.

Mr. JENNER. He came to the head of the line, eventually?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then tell me what happened, as best you can recall.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, he put the check up there and, of course, that's what everyone does. They put it up there and you look at the check and you observe the check and you either make up your mind whether you're going to cash it or not. But, of course, like I say, with the rule that I have, there never was any doubt in my mind what I was going to do with it. I just handed it back to him. I said, "I'm sorry. This is a two-party check, and we don't cash this amount in a two party check.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about that?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a word. Not a word. He just looked at me and picked up the check and got out of line and walked on out.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any expression on his face that arrested your attention?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he understood what you meant by a "two-party" check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Why, I'm sure he must have because I specifically said to him, "This is a two-party check and our rules and regulations are that we don't cash this large a check--two-party check."

Mr. JENNER. He didn't seem irritated?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he accepted your explanation?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not--let's see, you were in the cage, but despite that, do you have any recollection as to whether he purchased anything on that trip?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, because the cage is high enough that you have to stand up to see across the store. It's not caged completely in but there's a glass window----

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't serve him anything.

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. Sure didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the payee of the check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't. It just didn't enter my mind, Mr. Jenner, after it was that amount. I wouldn't care who it was, I wouldn't have cashed it because, like I say, I have my rules and regulations and if I violate them, my help can violate them, too--so, I just don't do it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about the check--the form of the check--other than it was a two-party check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. I couldn't tell you where it was given and who wrote the check. All I looked at was--it was the amount.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection--do you know what a counter check is?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I know what a counter check is. It was a counter check. It wasn't a printed--it wasn't a personalized check. It was a printed check.

Mr. JENNER. I'm going to hand you one of my own personal checks [handing to witness.] Now, that's what you call a printed personalized check?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. That's a printed personalized check.

Mr. JENNER. And it was not that form?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. This was just a counter check. They all have it right here [indicating on check]--it's in the form of a draft on the Dallas market here. You have the name of your bank in print--like this bank is printed in here. [Indicating on check.]

Mr. JENNER. Yes. But on a counter check, the bank is not imprinted?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. It just has your date and "Pay to the Order of," and your signature here and, of course, they all have your micronized letters--they all have that now because each bank puts them out.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; but they do not appear on counter checks.

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have explained, now you did not make a mental note and you do not now have a recollection of the person to whom this counter check was payable?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. On these mornings when he came in, these were occasions when you were not too busy?

Mr. HUTCHISON. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection at all--and if so, state the extent of it--as to whether he arrived at your place of business in some vehicle--automobile?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking.

Mr. JENNER. Always walking?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking. Yes, sir. He was always walking. Because, once or twice, I'd be sweeping the sidewalks--I sweep the sidewalk every morning--and he'd be coming down the Storey side.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I was about to get to that. He was coming down the Storey side--let's see if I can put it in my vernacular a little: From what direction was he coming, normally, when you saw him?

Mr. HUTCHISON. From north to south.

Mr. JENNER. He was moving from the north to the south?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which would be coming from the direction of the Paine home?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you notice the direction in which he went when he departed your store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he just went right around the corner. See, from my door there's only about 25 feet from the entrance of the door to the corner of the building. My checking stand is on the, what you would say, the west side of the building. He'd go out the door and just go right around the corner.

Mr. JENNER. And in what direction would he be moving then, after he turned the corner?

Mr. HUTCHISON. North.

Mr. JENNER. And then what street would he be on?

Mr. HUTCHISON. That would be Storey, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So, he was retracing his steps?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; retracing his steps.

Mr. JENNER. Now, on the occasion when these three people were in your store on that evening, you're not able now to fix that occasion any more definitely as to point of time than sometime between the 1st and the--did you say the 15th of November?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Fifteenth of October, sir; to the 1st of--uh----

Mr. JENNER. November?

Mr. HUTCHISON. November. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was not in the month of November?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having been interviewed by a representative of the FBI----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On this occasion?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he questioned you about the incident of the evening----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And substantially the things that I am examining you about?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did you give him, then, your very best recollection of what you recalled at that time?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I sure did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

And this interview was shortly after the assassination?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The 3d of December, 1963?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. How much milk did he buy on these morning occasions?

Mr. HUTCHISON. A gallon.

Mr. JENNER. A whole gallon?

Mr. HUTCHISON. A whole gallon of milk; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the Internal Revenue Service might be interested in this: Tell me again, and with prices to the extent you can recall, what his normal purchase was on the mornings that he came in.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, the milk sells for 79 a gallon and the cinnamon rolls are 39. So, you see, that would be $1.18.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever buy any bread?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with any bills of large denomination?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a--well, I don't know; maybe "large denomination," doesn't help us very much on these morning occasions, did he ever hand you a $5 or a $10 bill?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; it was always a dollar and some change.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Either a dollar and a half or a dollar and a quarter--or sometimes two dimes. He had almost the correct change.

Mr. JENNER. Always?

Mr. HUTCHISON. He was within a few cents--30 or 40 cents of his purchase.

Mr. JENNER. However, on the evening occasion, when they bought--what expression did we use?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Full line of groceries?

Mr. JENNER. Did he have bills on that occasion?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Sir, I didn't check him.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't check him?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I didn't check him; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't know, sir. I sure don't.

Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that purchase would run somewhere between $15 and $20?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; $15 and $20.

Mr. JENNER. From that, you would conclude that he must have had some bills larger than a dollar?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he would have had to have larger bills that day.

Mr. JENNER. Or else he would have had to have a number of dollar bills.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think I failed to ask you what you thought his weight was.

Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say his weight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 155 to 160.

Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to his dress in the sense of neatness, cleanliness?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I wouldn't say he was dirty, but he was shabbily dressed.

Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.

Mr. HUTCHISON. He was shabbily dressed--cheap slacks, and like I said, the jacket was cheap, and his shirts were always open, he never had a tie, he wasn't what you would call neatly dressed. He always looked--well, like just a common worker.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from all this that it was your impression that he was a person of little means?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What about his neatness? Was he always shaven?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he was always shaven.

Mr. JENNER. His hair neatly combed?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Hair cut and neatly combed; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't notice anything about, did you, that he always needed a haircut or----

Mr. HUTCHISON. No; I would say that he was pretty well----

Mr. JENNER. In that respect, you would call him normal?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Normal; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Because, you know, I'd notice if a person doesn't have a haircut. Naturally, I would on account of my help and everything like that. I have to observe those things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you able to describe Mrs. Paine to me?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she's an ordinary person--I mean----

Mr. JENNER. Physical characteristics, I mean, first.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Well, she's about 5 foot 4 and I'd say her weight was around 122 and 124--I'd say between 115 and 125. Uh--she's not a beautiful woman, but she's attractive.

Mr. JENNER. What about her age?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, I'd say--uh--between 42 and 46 years of age.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Paine?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the first place, do you know that there is a Mr. Paine?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the lady you have in mind does or does not have children and if so----

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whenever she was in your store did she have children with her?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she was alone.

Mr. JENNER. Always alone. When was the last time you saw this person that you have in mind in your store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, I'd say in January----

Mr. JENNER. Of this year?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Of this year. Yes, sir. She's been in since----

Mr. JENNER. She may well have been in on other occasions----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, yes; yes.

Mr. JENNER. But the last time you recall her was in January?

Mr. HUTCHISON. January. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were never able to strike up any conversation with this man, so----

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't have told you he lived with her, or anything.

Mr. JENNER. All you know is that he was a person that came from that direction?

Mr. HUTCHISON. He came from the north and came in the store--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you do recall distinctly that, from the occasion of the assassination, you have never seen this man in your store?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir; I've never seen him.

Mr. JENNER. And what arrested your attention in this regard was that you saw a photograph of Marina Oswald published in one of the Dallas papers?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And seeing that photograph, you noticed a resemblance between the lady you had seen in your store the evening you've described----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that particular photograph?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that's the only time I ever saw her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see, either published in the newspapers or published in magazines somewhere or other, or on television, any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw them on television; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us when you saw the television pictures that you now have in mind.

Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw the television program on Sunday afternoon after he was shot here.

Mr. JENNER. That's the 24th of November 1963?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that's the first time I recognized that he had been in my store.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized the man you saw on the television Sunday afternoon?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the man who had come in your store of a morning?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I remarked to my wife the minute I saw it. I was working when he was shot in the morning. I didn't see the actual--I didn't see the--but they rerun it that Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. You saw the rerun that Sunday afternoon?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. I told my wife then, I said, "That fellow has traded--"--and I related to her what I told you, just casually.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen the newspaper picture of the lady, Marina Oswald, prior to the time you saw the television rerun on Sunday afternoon?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; that was later.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Hutchison, is there anything that occurs to you now that I haven't brought out that you think might be helpful to the Commission in this important work of the Commission?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. That you know? Any facts?

Mr. HUTCHISON. I'd be happy to tell you because----

Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you would.

Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm certainly a person who wants to help in every way--in any way.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I have no further questions.

It's your privilege, Mr. Hutchison, to read over your deposition as soon as it is transcribed if you desire to do so. And this nice young lady will have this transcribed so it may be read, oh, let us say, Tuesday of next week. And if you wish to do so, you may come in and read it, and if you think there is anything in the deposition----

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is incorrectly reported, why we'd like to have you advise us of that. Or you may waive all this procedure as you see fit.

Mr. HUTCHISON. I can waive it right now, Mr. Jenner. I have no----

Mr. JENNER. Then, you would like to waive it?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir, yes, sir; I'd be glad to, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think I might add--when you were interviewed on the 3d of December----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which is some months ago, to the best of your recollection did you report to the FBI agent, who was Mr. Berry--do you recall that name?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; Mr. Berry was the man that came out--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was then your recollection that the time that Oswald--the man you recognized as Oswald--tendered the check for cashing was November 8--that is, you used the expression, "Three weeks ago?"

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that would pinpoint it closer.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection now----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As to the time it was?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that on that occasion, that interview, that you told Mr. Berry that the occasion when the elderly lady, the young lady, and Oswald were in your store--that's an evening?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You recall the incident?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That it was on Wednesday evening November 13, 1963, rather than in October--between the 15th and the 1st of November, as you've testified today?

Mr. HUTCHISON. [Pausing before reply.] Mr. Jenner, the best--it was before the check cashing.

Mr. JENNER. Incident?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was before that. Yes, sir; because he tried to cash the check after he'd bought the bill of groceries.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you fixed the time of day as the same.

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And according to the report I have--and all I have is the report----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You fixed the date as November 13. But, now, that you've been able to reflect further about it. This check-cashing incident as related to the time when the three of them were in----

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; was before.

Mr. JENNER. Was before rather than after?

Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think that's all--no--one other thing I'd like to say to you. We did have a little bit of conversation before we started your deposition and we've been off the record once or twice--is there anything that I discussed with you while we were off the record or before your testimony began that you think is pertinent that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during that time that you told me that you think is inconsistent with any of the testimony you have given--and which I failed to bring out?

Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I think it's very full on everything I know.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We're sorry to have inconvenienced you but we very much appreciate your help.

Mr. HUTCHISON. That's all right--it's perfectly all right. That's just something that everybody should do if they're good Americans.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK PIZZO

The testimony of Frank Pizzo was taken at 3:35 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, would you stand up and be sworn?

Mr. PIZZO. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. PIZZO. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel, or did you?

Mr. PIZZO. No, I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Then, I'll tell you about it. The Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy was appointed by President Johnson under Executive Order 11130, which in turn was pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress, and the Commission was authorized and appointed for the purpose of investigating the assassination of the late President, John F. Kennedy, on the 22d of November, 1963, and to report all the facts that are pertinent to that tragic event that we can discover.

We are particularly interested in persons who did or might have had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, and it is our understanding that you may have some information in that area and in the course of conducting your business back in the fall of 1963, and pursuant to my telephone call to you this morning, you have kindly come down here, voluntarily, have you?

Mr. PIZZO. I have.

Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI, haven't you?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, I know you are busy as it is particularly busy at the end of the month in your business, and I'll see if I can't expedite this.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. PIZZO. No; I am a native of Providence, R.I.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Dallas?

Mr. PIZZO. Around May 15 in 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Take me back, say, to 1960--about yourself, or start with 1960; what were you doing then?

Mr. PIZZO. Well, in 1960, I was in the automobile business in Providence, R.I., with my own company.

Mr. JENNER. Automobile sales business?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, used cars--Auto Village, Inc., in Providence, R.I. We came here in, let's see, February of 1963--we came to Lufkin.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we," you mean you, your wife, and your family?

Mr. PIZZO. My wife and my child, a 5-year-old boy. We came to Lufkin, Tex. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex.?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, and we came down here to open up a business, which we did. We opened a business in Lufkin--she opened a beauty shop and I opened a used-car lot, and we were there a couple or 3 months and I came to Dallas to buy cars and I went to McAllister Lincoln-Mercury, who is now my boss, and owns Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth, and while I was there trying to buy cars, I wound up coming to work for him.

Mr. JENNER. And the McAllister agency is located in downtown Dallas?

Mr. PIZZO. It is Downtown Lincoln-Mercury--it used to be McAllister Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. JENNER. And now it is called Downtown Lincoln-Mercury?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. JENNER. Has that been a recent change in name?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, it has.

Mr. JENNER. I'm just curious, because I tried to find it in the phone book this morning and I couldn't find Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. PIZZO. That's right, it has been--let's see, we changed the name--the name was changed just before the assassination. You see, it's a factory franchise dealership and they changed it to Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. JENNER. I was looking in a May 1963, directory.

Mr. PIZZO. That's it.

Mr. JENNER. That would be McAllister Lincoln-Mercury at that time?

Mr. PIZZO. When I went to work at that time--yes. Now, I stayed on when Mr. McAllister went on to Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth and I stayed on as assistant manager at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. We were working actually for the factory, because they were running the store--they had no president.

Mr. JENNER. In which of the two agencies do you now work as of today?

Mr. PIZZO. Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth.

Mr. JENNER. And you are what position there?

Mr. PIZZO. Sales manager.

Mr. JENNER. And you were what position--what position did you have with McAllister?

Mr. PIZZO. You mean at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury or McAllister?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIZZO. Assistant manager.

Mr. JENNER. You were assistant manager?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did that work commence--when did you start to work with McAllister?

Mr. PIZZO. Around the 14th or 15th of May.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an employee under your supervision and direction at that time by the name of Bogard?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. What is his full name?

Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard.

Mr. JENNER. Albert G. Bogard?

Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard, that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And has he also worked over at the Hamilton agency?

Mr. PIZZO. No, sir; he came from Ed Maher Ford.

Mr. JENNER. That's M-a-h-e-r (spelling)?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes--two words. When he applied for the job, he was working at Maher's.

Mr. JENNER. Some of these salesmen are inclined to shift about, I guess?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes--if they like the looks of a car this year--it might look a little better on this make of car, and you know, to them, it is all money, and they are going to move around, but a real good person will stay. He will stay in one place and build up a clientele.

Mr. JENNER. With repeat sales?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right. These boys--most of them live on floor traffic.

Mr. JENNER. They wait for people to come in?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; they are not real working automobile salesmen.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, I'll summarize--you are a native-born American and a native of Rhode Island, Providence?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir; and I served in the U.S. Marine Corps in World War II.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business in Providence and you and your wife in due course came here to Dallas and she is a native of Texas, as you recited?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business there, and what was that town again?

Mr. PIZZO. Lufkin.

Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it?

Mr. PIZZO. L-u-f-k-i-n (spelling).

Mr. JENNER. And then you became associated with Downtown Lincoln-Mercury?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In May of 1963? Was there an incident that occurred sometime in 1963, but prior to November 22, 1963, involving somebody who might have been Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; there was an incident.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about the incident, first, and then we will become oriented?

Mr. PIZZO. All right--of course, at the time nothing was thought of the incident because it was just a natural sales setup we had. Our salesmen, when they can't sell a customer a car, they run to the manager and tell him, they'll say, "He's going to leave."

Mr. JENNER. And that manager in this instance was you?

Mr. PIZZO. It was me.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIZZO. And, I asked to see the man--no, I didn't ask to see him personally--no, I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Who was the salesman?

Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard.

Mr. JENNER. The man we have identified here?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right, sir. He brought the man to me--it was quite late in the evening--it wasn't evening, because it was dark.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

Mr. PIZZO. I really don't--really don't.

Mr. JENNER. It was a weekday?

Mr. PIZZO. It was a weekday.

Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday?

Mr. PIZZO. No; we are not open on Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Are you open on Saturday?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It could have been any day in the week?

Mr. PIZZO. It could have been--it seems to me like it was the middle of the week, towards the weekend, but I couldn't swear to that.

Mr. JENNER. What month was it?

Mr. PIZZO. It was November--now.

Mr. JENNER. November 1963?

Mr. PIZZO. November 1963--yes; I'm pretty sure it was November. Now, that I can recollect--it was November. When he brought the man to me, he said, "This man will have some money. He doesn't have the down payment," because when we were trying to sell the man a car, he asked me how much money he needed to buy this car and I said, "That man needs around $200 or $300."

Mr. JENNER. This is Bogard asking you?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; the salesman asking me. He asked me that and I said it was around $200 or $300, and so he went back to his booth to work on the customer.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, at this point, you had not yet seen the customer?

Mr. PIZZO. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Bogard had come to you as assistant sales manager, to find out the minimum, let us say, of the down payment?

Mr. PIZZO. Of the down payment.

Mr. JENNER. And he had a man who was interested in what make of car?

Mr. PIZZO. Now, that's something that I do not remember because there was no writeup sheet that I could go back to to find out exactly what car. I believe it was a Comet.

Mr. JENNER. Have you made an effort to find a writeup sheet?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; we did--all of us did.

Mr. JENNER. And you discovered what?

Mr. PIZZO. I discovered nothing--no writeup sheet, but the incident that happened later--I'll get to it, if you want me to get to it now, I'll go to it now.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I think probably the best thing for you to do would be for you to tell us in your own words, and I'll try not to interrupt you.

Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir. He brought the customer to me, but previous to that he had taken the customer out on a demonstration ride.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, this occurred at McAllister Downtown Lincoln Mercury?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct. I think it's better if we do call it that--Downtown McAllister Lincoln Mercury, because the exact day of the change of the name, I don't remember, you see.

Now, this was previous to the assassination--I would say between a period of a week and a half to 2 weeks, and I would guess I would be right. After the man was worked on to buy a car----

Mr. JENNER. By Bogard.

Mr. PIZZO. By Bogard, Mr. Bogard brought the man to my office and I'm sitting like you are and he brought him to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the same day?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; this was within 2 hours, within a period of 2 hours.

Mr. JENNER. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours.

Mr. PIZZO. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours and he brought the man to the door.

Mr. JENNER. What door?

Mr. PIZZO. My office door, and I get up from behind my desk and walk up to the door, and he says, "He doesn't have the down payment, but he will have $200 or $300 in a couple or 3 weeks."

Mr. JENNER. And this conversation you are now relating occurred after Bogard had demonstrated the car?

Mr. PIZZO. Had demonstrated the car.

Mr. JENNER. And had come to you and asked for the minimum?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; for the minimum.

Mr. JENNER. And then he had gone back to the customer?

Mr. PIZZO. And the customer told him he didn't have the down payment.

Mr. JENNER. And then he brought the customer to the door of the office?

Mr. PIZZO. Right. So, it was just 2 or 3 minutes--I was very busy, we had other deals going, and I said, "Okay," and just let it go at that.

Mr. JENNER. What did that mean--"okay"?

Mr. PIZZO. There was nothing we could do with the customer if he didn't have the down payment. I said, "Okay," to Al Bogard, which means--follow him up, use him as a prospect, call him later--that's what we do, we call a man later and try to work something out and this is strictly automobile business.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that; yes.

Mr. PIZZO. Now, what else do you want to know now? What happened later?

Mr. JENNER. Have you now completed relating the incident on the particular date you have in mind?

Mr. PIZZO. On that day; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection at the moment is that Bogard was seeking to interest him in a Comet?

Mr. PIZZO. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. That's the Ford compact, is it not?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; that's the Mercury compact. The Caliente--we had a red Caliente, I believe, and I believe it was a red Caliente he went for a ride in, not that he was selling that particular car, but we had just gotten the new line of the hot compact, which was the Caliente, and we bought them all in red and that's what he went for a ride in.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say "hot" or "hard"?

Mr. PIZZO. Hot--Caliente means hot, and that was the hot model of the year--it had just come out.

Mr. JENNER. You have a little bit of New England accent or Rhode Island or the Boston area?

Mr. PIZZO. You can't miss it--you can't hide it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you volunteered there a second that the man had taken a ride in the Comet Caliente?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that statement?

Mr. PIZZO. On what Al Bogard told me, that that was the car he had taken him for a ride in.

Mr. JENNER. You had not seen this man in the car?

Mr. PIZZO. In the car or drive off either.

May I tell you the normal procedure that every salesman follows? He talks to the customer, gets him interested in a car, takes him out for a ride and puts him in a booth to see if he can sell him a car, and that's the routine he followed.

Mr. JENNER. And this first stage of taking him for a ride, the salesman drives the car rather than the customer?

Mr. PIZZO. That's the way it should be.

Mr. JENNER. And if the normal procedure were followed here, the prospect would have been taken for a ride by Mr. Bogard?

Mr. PIZZO. If it was followed, but according to----

Mr. JENNER. Well, if it were followed?

Mr. PIZZO. If it was followed--he drives the customer to a point and lets the customer drive it back. But the only way to demonstrate an automobile is that. You drive it and demonstrate it as you are driving it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, since you weren't present at this point we are relying on normal procedures.

Mr. PIZZO. Right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And a remark made by Mr. Bogard that the customer, whoever he was, had been taken for a demonstration ride by Bogard?

Mr. PIZZO. By Bogard.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you now stated everything that occurred that particular day, occurred or said to you on that particular day?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; I can't remember anything else.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a subsequent incident or something that occurred with respect to the incident you have now related, is there a second stage of this?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when after the assassination?

Mr. PIZZO. The same day--within, oh, 4 or 5 o'clock or something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Of the--late in the day on the 22d of November?

Mr. PIZZO. When this man was captured, and the name announced over the radio, the possible suspect, or the suspect's name was announced on the radio, we had all radios on in the showroom.

Mr. JENNER. You had your radios and television on?

Mr. PIZZO. No; just radios.

Mr. JENNER. Just radio?

Mr. PIZZO. Well, we had the television set up in the Continental Department that we were all watching.

Mr. JENNER. And when you say "all," does that include Mr. Bogard?

Mr. PIZZO. That includes Mr. Bogard.

Mr. JENNER. All right, relate what happened--you were all sitting around looking at the television, were you?

Mr. PIZZO. I wasn't--I was standing around listening to the radio. We were all in just different groups--this is a mighty big showroom, Downtown Lincoln-Mercury, it is 350 feet long, and we were sitting around listening to the news and also doing the work that had to be done, and when the suspect's name was announced, I was standing right in the middle of the showroom floor and----

Mr. JENNER. This is this great big showroom--the 350-foot long showroom?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but right in front of my office is where the group was standing, because that's a front door and there are three front doors, but this is the first front door, and we were standing right there. Of course, all of us were looking out at the underpass, which we are right under, the triple underpass there.

Mr. JENNER. Near the area of the assassination scene?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right, sir; we are on this side--the Oak Cliff side of the bridge, and, of course, we were all standing at the big windows looking at that area and listening to the radio and a remark was made, "Well," now, I didn't hear this. It was told to me just a few minutes later.

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. PIZZO. By some salesman there and I just can't remember which one it was. I think we had around 15 or 16 salesmen there at the time. We weren't all standing around, but someone made the remark that, "Al Bogard lost his prospect."

Mr. JENNER. You overheard that?

Mr. PIZZO. I overheard that. I said, "What do you mean?" They said, "Well--" he pulled out a card, his own business card like this [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. Your salesman did?

Mr. PIZZO. Albert Bogard--this salesman made the remark that Al Bogard had pulled out a business card and written behind the business card--a lot of salesmen will do that--they will write down names of prospects on the card and if they don't have a piece of paper, they will just pull out one of their cards and write the names down, and he said, "Well, there goes my prospect," when he heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald, so he dumped it in the wastebasket.

Now, I didn't know about this until a few minutes later and I didn't make much of it at that time. That was it--at that time. I didn't know that that was a custom he had--a week or two before it just--nothing never entered my mind, we were all pretty saddened by the thing, and that was it for that day. Let's see, I believe, was that a Friday or Saturday?

Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday.

Mr. PIZZO. It was on a Friday--I want to tell it to you as correct as I can, that's why I'm wondering.

One of the boys said the next day that he had lost his customer and the guy that they have got is the man that Bogard has as a prospect, so I says, "Let's look--where is the writeup?" The first thing that I had in my mind was--get the writeup, so everyone was looking for the writeup. By now Bogard wasn't there, I think it was after lunch or breakfast, so we went through the drawers, and we went through the baskets and I called the two porters we have in the garage--called them in there and I said, "Who dumped the baskets out last night," and one fellow said, "I did." I said, "Where?" We have a trash barrel--not a barrel, but it's a huge incinerator and the trash men come by and pick it up, and so we went back there and I jumped inside this thing--that's how big it is and started throwing out the papers, looking for some kind of a writeup, and never could find anything. I just wanted the writeup to see if he did have a writeup, but by that time Bogard came back and I asked him, I said, "Al, have you got a writeup on that man, the man that they have got locked up?" He said, "Yes," and I said, "Where is it?" He said, "Well, it's not a writeup--I've got it on a card and I just took it and threw it down in the basket."

Mr. JENNER. The day before?

Mr. PIZZO. The day before. I said, "Well, where is it now?" He said, "I don't know."

Mr. JENNER. Did you look through the refuse container to try to find that card?

Mr. PIZZO. We looked for the card to--we went right back again and did the same thing, and he helped look for it and we had the colored boy there helping us looking for it and then when some FBI men came there they went in there and looked for it.

Mr. JENNER. We became very interested in that.

Mr. PIZZO. Me too. So, I kind of said, "Are you kidding us or what? You either have his name or you don't." He said, "Well, Frank, don't you remember?" I said, "I don't remember." He said, "I brought him to your office and you said he needed $200 or $300 down," and I said, "Yes, I guess I remember." He said, "Well, you should remember because when I took that man for a ride he drove like a wild man, and besides we had Gene Wilson's car and Gene got mad because we used up all his gas." He said, "He drove so fast, he scared the daylights out of me. Don't you remember me coming back and saying how mad I was?"

I said, "I just don't remember that particular moment." That's how he was trying to get me to remember that particular time when he took him for a ride. I said, "I just really don't remember that night--that much of it."

Now, I'll tell you how I think I recognized the man--this was after they had him on television and they showed him on television which was Monday or Tuesday or something like that--it was a few days after.

Mr. JENNER. You mean a rerun?

Mr. PIZZO. No; of the Oswalds--when they showed him on television--the first pictures of him on television, I saw that.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall what day that was?

Mr. PIZZO. It was past a weekend. It was not Saturday--it might have been Sunday and probably it was Monday, but it wasn't Friday or Saturday, and I'm not sure it was Sunday, but I think it was on a Monday, and of course--the seed planted--I got to thinking about it and I looked at him and he looked familiar to me, and at that time I could have sworn it was him, because I remember a man in a T-shirt. I don't mean the open T-shirt but a full T-shirt.

Mr. JENNER. Like the kind you wore in the Marines?

Mr. PIZZO. Well, it wasn't green, but that type--the full T-shirt with a sleeve.

Mr. JENNER. About a half sleeve?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his face. And he just looked the type. He just looked like the type of guy that I was talking to that day, and when I came back to work the next day, of course we were all in there talking about it, and we talked about different incidences that reminded me of him. I only had a few seconds look at the man. He never said a word. I never heard him talk.

Mr. JENNER. The customer never said a word?

Mr. PIZZO. The customer never said a word--whether it would be him or not--but to me, it looked like it was, only from the pictures.

Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456 and ask you to examine them.

Does the man depicted there bear a resemblance to what you might possibly recall as the prospective customer you now have in mind?

Mr. PIZZO. [Examining photographs referred to.] It wouldn't be fair to say this one, because I think this was in the television or the newspaper with a fat lip--I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo has refused Commission Exhibit 455.

Mr. PIZZO. Possibly these two.

Mr. JENNER. It might possibly be Commission Exhibit 453 or 451?

Mr. PIZZO. And I will refuse these two.

Mr. JENNER. The witness also refused Commission Exhibits Nos. 454 and 456.

Mr. PIZZO. I'm not too positive on these, either.

Mr. JENNER. And he is uncertain even as to Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451.

(An instrument is marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Showing you that exhibit, do you see any person depicted on that exhibit that resembles or is the prospective customer that was brought to your office door by Mr. Bogard on the day you have testified about?

Mr. PIZZO. One of these two men seems like it. This one--it seems like it because his nose is too big--one of these two here.

Mr. JENNER. Using this green marker, will you put an "X" on the two men?

Mr. PIZZO. I am not positive.

Mr. JENNER. Of course you are not positive.

Mr. PIZZO. Do you want me to put it right here?

Mr. JENNER. Let's pick out the two that most closely resemble the man of which you speak.

Mr. PIZZO. [Witness at this point marked instrument referred to.]

Mr. JENNER. Now, which of those two that you marked with the little green mark most closely resembles the man you saw?

Mr. PIZZO. Right here--but he seems older here--he was a little short guy, the way I figure.

Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" above him. The witness has put a cross--a horizontal cross line, through the other line as indicating the man who appears most like the person he saw. Your feeling is that the man you have indicated with an "X" seems somewhat taller than the man you recall as having seen at the door of your office prior to November 22, 1963. Is that correct, sir?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--about 5 feet 8 inches, something like that, what I recall--or maybe 5 feet 8-1/2 inches. Bogard is pretty tall and it seemed like the fellow was a lot shorter than he was.

Mr. JENNER. And that's what led you to put the marker over the head of the man on the extreme right shown in that picture, Pizzo Exhibit 453-A?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes--that's right--it's a downhill photo.

Mr. JENNER. I have one that's taken more at a level. We will mark it Pizzo Exhibit 453-B.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting that photograph, does there appear on it anybody who closely resembles the person you recall as having been at the door of your office on the occasion you have described, and if there is, put a mark on it.

Mr. PIZZO. Gosh, the man I saw--I want you to know--didn't have that much hair, nor did he have as much hair as these boys in this picture.

Mr. JENNER. The man you saw did not have as much hair as is shown on Pizzo Commission Exhibit 453-A, which you have marked with a cross?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right, nor as this picture right here--right there.

Mr. JENNER. Or the man on Pizzo Exhibit 453-B--appears to have more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the men depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451 also, in each instance, has more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What about the man over whose head you placed a cross on Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, that is, in respect to the amount of hair?

Mr. PIZZO. This is more or less the hairline.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the witness is pointing to the man over where there is a single vertical stripe, over his head--green, and has dark glasses on. It is his hairline to which you have now adverted?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the other man has the cross over his head--you wanted to say something about that?

Mr. PIZZO. You said it exactly--that resembles--the face resembles him more than the hairline--it's sort of a "=V=" hairline.

Mr. JENNER. So, your problem has been that the hairline and the man with the single stripe above his head more resembles him than the man you saw at the door of your office, but the physiognomy or the facial features of the man over whose head you have placed the cross more resembles the man you saw?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes. I had just wondered if the pictures that I have seen of Oswald might have----

Mr. JENNER. Might have colored your judgment now?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It's always possible, you know.

Mr. PIZZO. But that hairline is a thing--that's the thing that hit me first when I saw his picture on television.

Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald's picture on television?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and in the paper. It was the hairline and the physical features of it--a clean face with the high forehead and the "=V=" shaped hairline, and it's easy to remember that because of the T-shirt, the bare look he had because of the tight T-shirt.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis has come in and he is representing the attorney general's office of the State of Texas. This is Mr. Robert Davis. They are conducting a court of inquiry on this subject.

Mr. PIZZO. I see, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, the witness has just emphasized the thing he recalls most about the appearance or physiognomy of the man he saw at the door of his office a week or 10 days prior to November 22 when one of the employees he was supervising, Mr. Bogard, brought a prospective customer who seemed to be interested in a Comet Caliente, Mr. Pizzo was then the general sales manager of McAllister Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. PIZZO. I was assistant sales manager.

Mr. JENNER. You are now the sales manager?

Mr. PIZZO. I--of Hamilton Chrysler.

Mr. JENNER. I have shown him some photographs. He was impressed, he said, that the man he now recalls having seen on the occasion--he was impressed particularly with his hairline.

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that the hairline of the man indicated on Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, over whose head he has put the green vertical stripe, has the hairline, but the man over whose head he has placed the cross has more of the facial likeness.

The person or persons depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451, he says have a resemblance, but it is in his opinion not the man, and in any event the man on those two exhibits has more hair and does not have the particular hairline that impressed you on this occasion?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Am I fairly stating your testimony?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to summarize for Mr. Davis.

Mr. PIZZO. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I now show you a document we will mark as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C.

(The instrument referred to was marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that I'm about to show you and before I show it to you, may I say that the important thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment, and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if it is--tell us, one way or the other.

Mr. PIZZO. All right. That I will do. [Examining instrument referred to.]

Mr. JENNER. The greatest service you can give to us and to the country and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can.

Mr. PIZZO. He certainly don't have the hairline I was describing--it isn't the hairline I was describing.

Mr. JENNER. This was taken the afternoon of November 22 in the Dallas City Police showup.

(Discussion off the record.)

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Counsel Davis and the witness, Mr. Pizzo, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. You recall him as being more in the neighborhood of what--5 feet 8 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, more or less, or more or less?

Mr. PIZZO. Between 5 feet 7 inches and 5 foot 8-1/2 inches with sort of a round forehead and that =V= shape is the thing that I remember the most.

Mr. JENNER. A widow's peak?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but very weak.

Mr. JENNER. Very weak?

Mr. PIZZO. Very weak--not the bushy type that I see in the picture. Well, if I'm not sure--then--I have to say that he is not the one--if you want the absolute statement.

Mr. JENNER. I just want your best judgment--I don't want you to say he isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. It is better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. Now, you don't find the hairline?

Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't. From that picture I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; from any of the three pictures, except the one with the man with the stripe over his head?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right--he has the sort of a hairline that I recollect.

Mr. JENNER. That's the man with the one stripe over his head?

Mr. PIZZO. I'll have to take a look again--this is the face--it resembles.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now pointing to the man that has the cross over it.

Mr. PIZZO. This is the hairline that I remember.

Mr. JENNER. That is the man on the extreme right with the dark glasses, having a single vertical stripe above his head?

Mr. PIZZO. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And that picture of Mr. Oswald that I showed the witness, Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, in that picture, he does not have the hairline; is that correct?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What about his facial expression--features?

Mr. PIZZO. There's resemblance there. May I say something?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Mr. PIZZO. All the time that I have been thinking about it--because the FBI did tell me that they would call me sometime later and would I appear, and I said--yes, I would. I thought about it and the thing that stuck in my mind was always that hairline--the kind of balding right here--the smooth line.

Mr. JENNER. Above each temple?

Mr. PIZZO. And that face resembles. Now, I'll tell you, if he has--I've never seen the man in person, but if he has a small mouth it would fit about the description that I would give. I couldn't say absolutely sure that this was the man that was standing in front of my door.

Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now referring to Pizzo Exhibit 453-C. I offer Pizzo Exhibits 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C in evidence.

Mr. PIZZO. May I say something else?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.

Mr. PIZZO. I have called Al Bogard into the office after the first interview by the FBI, and I have asked him--I says, "Now, it is easy for me to start imagining things because of the emotional situation right now, Al. I want you to tell me the truth. Am I right when I say I do remember that situation?" He says, "Yes," and then he went into some more detail--"of course, don't you remember?" I didn't only ask him once, I asked him again a week later, and he said the same thing and that might have had some influence on it. Now, whether that's the man he brought to my door--right now looking at that picture I couldn't swear to it--I wouldn't want to do that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a fair type of an appraisal that we want. We want your best judgment. You don't recall the incident that Bogard related to you later that sought to stimulate your recollection about somebody who drove this automobile wildly--you don't recall that having been said to you on the afternoon?

Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't--no; I don't. I asked him about it and he told me. I'm the one that was after him to tell me--to help me remember. You see, I'm the one that kept asking him about, "Would you help me remember the situation." The more he talked about it, the more I remember that particular situation, but only to the point of "He needs $200 or $300," and he didn't have it at the time but he will have it in a couple of weeks. That's the things that I do remember at the door.

Mr. JENNER. And you do remember this man had a white T-shirt on--the half-sleeve type?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes. Sleeve type.

Mr. JENNER. With which you are familiar and wore yourself in the Marines except yours was colored green?

Mr. PIZZO. It was green--that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, he has already related to us the effort he made when this incident came to his attention late in the day on the 22d of November of seeking to find Bogard's card on which he is alleged to have written Oswald's name on the reverse side and was to attempt to obtain a writeup sheet, which is what the salesmen normally write up with respect to a prospect, even to the extent of his climbing into the large refuse container in which all paper and waste paper baskets are thrown the following day, and he was not able to find either of those, though they made two examinations and emptied out the large container twice--you did it yourself?

Mr. PIZZO. I did it myself and once with the FBI. I believe it was the man from Louisiana--one of the FBI men.

Mr. JENNER. You were interviewed by Carter Hayden and Griffin on January 8, was it either one of those? On January 8, 1964?

Mr. PIZZO. I was interviewed by two pairs of FBI men--it was immediately after the assassination, which was probably Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. The first time?

Mr. PIZZO. The first time; but it wasn't January 8.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the last one--the last interview--January 8?

Mr. PIZZO. This might have been the last one, although I remember two other men came in from Chicago--one was from Chicago--one--I believe there were three, no, I'm sorry, it was the same two twice and then another team.

Mr. JENNER. Could I ask you this--knowing Mr. Bogard as you do, is he a man who on occasion departed from his usual practice of making out a prospect sheet?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He sometimes departed from that practice?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; he would write them on just about anything--especially business cards and put them in his desk.

Mr. JENNER. Even though, as you recall, he had this man at the customer's booth, where there would be a supply of these writeup sheets, I assume?

Mr. PIZZO. He would ordinarily write the man up after the demonstration ride.

Mr. JENNER. He would not?

Mr. PIZZO. He would--he would ordinarily bring the man in and write him up after a demonstration ride if you can sell him a car. We never did find a writeup sheet--he said he never had one and he said he just wrote the prospect's name on the back of a card and I asked him, "How come, you usually write the thing on an order pad?" And we tried to work from there, and he said, "I just didn't."

Mr. JENNER. I have attempted to locate Mr. Bogard, just by calling around this morning, but I haven't been able to run him down yet. If you get any lead on where I might reach him, I would appreciate your telling me. I don't mean to suggest that he is trying to escape or anything, but quite the contrary. I just haven't been able to reach him.

Mr. PIZZO. He's working around here somewhere. I believe, according to his application when he gave it to me, he was a sales manager in Louisiana and he owned a liquor store.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he was the owner of the Bent Elbow, wherever that is, here.

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his name isn't used--one of the salesmen sold him the place, the salesman that's still working there sold him the place. I guess he wanted out from under it and just found Bogard to do so, and when Bogard was bound to own a beer place, my boss immediately fired him. He won't have it. You cannot have outside interests with a dealer development company because factory and dealer development won't stand for it. You have to work primarily for the dealership, and he was fired for that and many other reasons, little reasons that, believe me, have no concern with this.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions for Mr. Pizzo?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, we appreciate very much your coming in and I know it was of considerable inconvenience at the month end and you have a lot of salesmen who want their money or pay.

Mr. PIZZO. I told my boss today--he says, "Do you have to go?" I said, "I have to go, but really, if I wasn't so patriotic, they would have to come after me, I told him."

Mr. JENNER. We appreciate it very much. You have a right, Mr. Pizzo, to read over your deposition if you wish and to sign it--this deposition I have taken of you, and if you care to exercise that right and make any corrections you wish, Miss Oliver will have this probably near the end of the week and you can call in and ask Mr. Sanders, the U.S. attorney, or for one of us if we are around--they will refer you to us anyhow, or you have a right to waive that, as you see fit. It is a privilege you may exercise if you wish to.

Mr. PIZZO. You mean what I have said here today?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIZZO. I believe everything I have said today--I will be glad to sign it.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have to--it is entirely up to you, if you see fit.

Mr. PIZZO. When would I get this deposition?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it will be ready for you to read--Miss Oliver will have it toward the end of the week.

Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you will call in, she can tell you if it is ready and advise you if it isn't ready and then when it will be ready.

Mr. PIZZO. Well, I wish you gentlemen a lot of luck.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT GUY BOGARD

The testimony of Albert Guy Bogard was taken at 11:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOGARD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. BOGARD. Albert Guy Bogard.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. BOGARD. 304 Brighton Street.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. BOGARD. Sales manager for L & L Vending Co.

Mr. BALL. What do you sell?

Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines.

Mr. BALL. Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?

Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines. Cigarette machines.

Mr. BALL. Oh, vending. Oh, I see. I couldn't understand your Texas dialect. That is the--I understand now. Vending.

Mr. BOGARD. I have sinus trouble.

Mr. BALL. Oh, you have? Let me see. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. BOGARD. Born in Cowshatta, La.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. BOGARD. Hall Summit, La.

Mr. BALL. How far through school, sir?

Mr. BOGARD. Finished. Eleventh grade.

Mr. BALL. Eleventh grade? And what occupation did you pursue after that?

Mr. BOGARD. U.S. Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long?

Mr. BOGARD. Four years and two months and three days, I think, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? What did you do after that?

Mr. BOGARD. I started selling automobiles.

Mr. BALL. Did you sell automobiles from then on until----

Mr. BOGARD. Then on until just recently.

Mr. BALL. I see. When did you take this job you are on now?

Mr. BOGARD. January.

Mr. BALL. Of 1964?

Mr. BOGARD. 1964; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who did you work for last fall, 1963?

Mr. BOGARD. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, 118 East Commerce, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Shortly after the death of President Kennedy you notified the FBI, didn't you?

Mr. BOGARD. I did not notify the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you notify someone that you had information?

Mr. BOGARD. Was the other salesman notified the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. BOGARD. I forget the name.

Mr. BALL. But he notified the FBI that you had some information?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did some special agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation come and call on you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; several times.

Mr. BALL. And took a statement from you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I took a lie detector test.

Mr. BALL. You told him about an incident which occurred sometime before?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; week before.

Mr. BALL. Just 1 week before?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; just one--one week before--two weeks before.

Mr. BALL. About what date? Do you remember?

Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. BOGARD. 1963.

Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that?

Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon?

Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was in a hurry.

Mr. BALL. Tell me just what happened there? Tell me the incident that you remember and that you related to the Federal----

Mr. BOGARD. A gentleman walked in the door and walked up and introduced himself to me, and tells me he wants to look at a car. I show him a car on the showroom floor, and take him for a ride out Stemmons Expressway and back, and he was driving at 60 to 70 miles an hour and came back to the showroom. And I made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or 3 weeks, that he had some money coming in. And when he finally started to leave I got his name and wrote it on the back of one of my business cards, and never heard from the man any more. And the day that the President was shot, when I heard that--they had the radio on in the showroom, and when I heard the name, that he had shot a policeman over in Oak Cliff, I pulled out some business cards that I had wrote his name on the back on, and said, "He won't be a prospect any more because he is going to jail," and ripped the card up.

Mr. BALL. Threw it away?

Mr. BOGARD. Threw it away.

Mr. BALL. And when the FBI agent came to see you, the card had already been thrown away?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I tore it up that very same day.

Mr. BALL. This was Friday the 22d?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; the day I heard that Kennedy had been killed. I hadn't heard that the President had been killed; just heard a policeman had been shot and that's when I tore up the card and said, "He won't want to buy a car."

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him?

Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he tall, or short?

Mr. BOGARD. About medium build, I'd say.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what name he gave you?

Mr. BOGARD. Gave me Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you that when he first introduced----

Mr. BOGARD. He give me that when he started to leave.

Mr. BALL. Oh, gave you that when he started to leave?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And didn't give you any name when he first introduced himself?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what kind of a car he wanted?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; wanted a Caliente, two-door hardtop.

Mr. BALL. What kind of make is that?

Mr. BOGARD. Mercury Comet.

Mr. BALL. And did you show him one?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color did you show him?

Mr. BOGARD. Red.

Mr. BALL. You took a ride with him?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he drive, or did you drive it?

Mr. BOGARD. He drove it.

Mr. BALL. Drive it, right out of the shop, or did you drive it first and then----

Mr. BOGARD. No; he drove it right offhand. He got in driving it.

Mr. BALL. Did he appear to know how to drive the car?

Mr. BOGARD. Well, he had drove before, I'm sure, because he took off.

Mr. BALL. Did he----

Mr. BOGARD. He might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, he knew how to drive.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean, "He might have drove it a little reckless"?

Mr. BOGARD. Well, going 60 and 70 miles an hour right up a Freeway and took curves kind of fast.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got back to the showroom you say you did some figuring. What kind of figuring?

Mr. BOGARD. Just took out some papers and going to write up how much the car would cost and, just like with anybody else, just trying to close the deal, and he said he would have the money in 2 or 3 weeks and would come in and----

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you needed a down payment?

Mr. BOGARD. He said he would have it.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him how much?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How much?

Mr. BOGARD. Three hundred dollars, I think. And he said he didn't have the money then and would just pay cash for it at a later date.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he lived?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you his--didn't give you his address or telephone number?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir; or occupation.

Mr. BALL. And he gave you his name, though?

Mr. BOGARD. Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. At what time?

Mr. BOGARD. That is when he was fixing to leave.

Mr. BALL. Lee Oswald?

Mr. BOGARD. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You say you wrote it on one of your own cards?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; back of one of my business cards.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody about it at that time?

Mr. BOGARD. Now, at that time I don't know whether--Now, Mr. Pizzo, I think I introduced him to him. I introduced him to Mr. Pizzo. He asked what was wrong with him and I said he hasn't got the money right now. Will be back in a couple or 3 weeks.

Mr. BALL. You introduced him to Pizzo?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you said this in front of Pizzo that he didn't have the money?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; he was expecting some money--to have the money in 2 or 3 weeks.

Mr. BALL. When did you see the television that called your attention to this?

Mr. BOGARD. I heard it on the radio.

Mr. BALL. You heard it on the radio?

Mr. BOGARD. And then I tore the card up, and that very same night on the 10 o'clock news, I think it was, if I remember correctly, I saw him on TV.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures of Lee Oswald in the newspaper?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; Dallas Morning News, next morning.

Mr. BALL. Now, what was your impression when you saw the man on television?

Mr. BOGARD. All my impression was that he had been in and tried to buy a car, that he wasn't a prospect any more.

Mr. BALL. What about his picture in the paper? Did it appear to be--did you recognize him from the picture?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I recognized him as being the same fellow that had been in.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell anybody out there that you thought it was the same person?

Mr. BOGARD. They began asking me then, and I said, "Yes," and this Pizzo recognized him, too.

Mr. BALL. What did Pizzo say?

Mr. BOGARD. Said, "Yes; that is the same man." And Pizzo also has been questioned by the FBI.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. BOGARD. P-i-z-z-o.

Mr. BALL. He was the sales manager?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is he still the sales manager out there?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is he now?

Mr. BOGARD. I don't know. I think, though, that he is at Eagle Lincoln-Mercury. I wouldn't be for sure, because I haven't seen Pizzo since I left Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. BALL. Now, when was it that you talked to the other salesman about this and told them that you thought the man had been in to see you?

Mr. BOGARD. We were all standing there listening to the radio and the name came on the radio, and I pulled this business card out with "Lee Oswald," wrote across it.

Mr. BALL. Who were some of the men standing by the radio when you pulled this business card out?

Mr. BOGARD. Oh, I think Oran Brown was there, Mr. Wilson was there, and this other little boy, he hadn't been there very long. I can't remember his name at this time right now.

Mr. BALL. Oran Brown and Wilson?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What are Wilson's initials, do you have them?

Mr. BOGARD. I can't remember Mr. Wilson's initials right now.

Mr. BALL. Wilson a salesman?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; been there for about 12 years.

Mr. BALL. Is Brown a salesman?

Mr. BOGARD. He works for Fina Oil Co. out here on Inwood Road now.

Mr. BALL. What is it?

Mr. BOGARD. [Spelling] O-r-a-n.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling] O-r-a-n--oil what?

Mr. BOGARD. My--no, he works for Fina Oil Co., American Petra Fina Oil Co. A service station.

Mr. BALL. Service station?

Mr. BOGARD. He manages this service station out there. New, big service station.

Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Bogard, did you receive a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to appear by the Secret Service?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I probably should have stated to you the purpose of this inquiry. The Commission has been authorized to investigate the assassination of the President and any facts or circumstances that might determine who assassinated him. And our attention was called to your testimony by the Federal Bureau of Investigation report, and we asked you to come in and testify and you did so willingly, didn't you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were willing?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Willing to come in and testify and be sworn?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And testify as to these facts?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am a staff officer with the Commission.

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And I am authorized by the Commission to administer the oath to you and ask you these questions, and all questions you answered were under oath. You understand that?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I answered the same questions under a polygraph test.

Mr. BALL. Under a polygraph test from the FBI?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can come down here and look it over and read it and sign it, or you may waive your signature--whatever you wish. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BOGARD. Which do you want? Put it that way.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to leave it up to you. That is really something for you to decide whether you want to come back down here or not.

Mr. BOGARD. I don't mind coming back down.

Mr. BALL. We'll notify you and you can come in and we will notify you when it is ready and you can come in and sign it.

Mr. BOGARD. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming down.

Mr. BOGARD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. All right.

TESTIMONY OF FLOYD GUY DAVIS

The testimony of Floyd Guy Davis was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Mr. Davis, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized by the Commission to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you, Mr. Davis, last week and indicated--in point of fact, the letter was returned to Washington and it was on my desk when I left. It was addressed to the Sports Drome Rifle Range and could not be delivered at that address. With the letter that Mr. Rankin originally sent to you, he enclosed a copy of the Executive order and joint resolution to which I just referred as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.

Since you didn't get copies of those documents nor the letter, I now hand you copies of those documents which you may keep for your own reference. It is my understanding that you were contacted by the Secret Service and requested to come here and give testimony. Technically, you are entitled to 3-days' notice. I don't expect you did get it, but you are now here and I assume you have no objection to going ahead with your testimony at this point, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. That's right, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at a rifle range which would be, I am informed, one which you operated at 8000 West Davis, Dallas, Tex.

Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name?

Mr. DAVIS. Floyd Guy Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. DAVIS. 2824 Byway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. DAVIS. Thirty-two.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DAVIS. In Louisville, Ky.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. DAVIS. It was approximately 8 years ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you move here from Louisville?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have lived all your life in Louisville and Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that during the period October and November of 1963, you were the operator of the Sports Dome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis?

Mr. DAVIS. That is D-r-o-m-e. It is Sports Drome.

Mr. LIEBELER. I was pronouncing it Dome.

Mr. DAVIS. I thought you were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still operating that rifle range?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, we are.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you commence operating it?

Mr. DAVIS. The exact date, I don't have, sir. It was about the first of October of last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. We are informed that the FBI has interviewed you and taken from you certain shell cases?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. For analysis in the FBI laboratory?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us briefly the circumstances that led up to that, as far as you know.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, the only thing that I know that happened, there was some people that said that they had seen Oswald out at the range on three different occasions. I believe that it was on the 9th, the 10th, and the 17th of November. And they informed the FBI that he was out there. The two I am sure that contacted me was Mr. Malcolm Price or Howard Price and Garland Slack, and the FBI in turn came out and talked to us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Malcolm Price?

Mr. DAVIS. That is Malcolm Howard Price, is his full name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know his name yourself?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he worked with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He worked with you?

Mr. DAVIS. He does now. At that time he was helping us out there trying to get the range started, and he has a heart ailment where he don't hold a regular job, so he helps us out there a little bit on the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had seen an individual who he thought was Oswald at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what date he thought he saw this man?

Mr. DAVIS. He said on the 9th and the 10th and the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three different occasions?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at the range on those days?

Mr. DAVIS. I was there, but not at the time that he was talking about on the 9th and the 10th. Now on the 17th, I was there, and the two individuals that he brought up in their testimony, I remember them being there, but I don't remember the faces.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean you remember them being there?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, Mr. Slack, there was this booth No. 9 on the rifle range----

Mr. LIEBELER. On what date?

Mr. DAVIS. On the 17th; and I was holding the turkey shoot at the same time. Mr. Slack come to me and was complaining about someone shooting his target.

So there was two young fellows, I can remember the approximate height of them but I don't remember what their faces looked like, that were in booth No. 8. I do remember the person that was in booth No. 7, though, because I don't know whether you have talked to Mr. Charlie Brown in the last 2 weeks or not on this----

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Brown, the FBI agent, yes.

Mr. DAVIS. There was a fellow with a black beard in that booth No. 7, at the same time. I remember him because he was outstanding, you know, and I went to these fellows in booth No. 8, and was giving them heck about shooting at the wrong target. And this other fellow, I remember him because he wouldn't say anything to me. I tried to speak to him two or three different occasions, because he had a lot of guns, and I thought he would be a good customer.

Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow with the beard?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was how tall, approximately?

Mr. DAVIS. He was over 6 feet and he weighed a good 250 pounds. A big bruiser.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think we can assume that was not Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DAVIS. They were trying to find him. Charlie Brown was trying to find this person, and 2 weeks ago on a Sunday morning I saw him in an automobile out on Davis, I believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. The big fellow with the beard?

Mr. DAVIS. The big fellow there with the beard. And I got the license number on the car and the type of car it was and called it into the office.

I haven't heard anything from Mr. Brown since then, whether he got the information, but I am sure he did when I turned it into the office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's review this. Mr. Slack was in booth No. 9, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This big fellow was in booth No. 7?

Mr. DAVIS. Right. And there was the two young fellows in booth No. 8. One of them was 5 foot 6 or 5 foot 7, somewhere in that vicinity, and the other one was about 6 foot, and he was blackheaded.

I can remember that, but as far as remembering their faces, with that turkey shoot we had 225 people that day, I can't remember what they looked like.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that these two fellows, one was approximately 6 feet tall or over, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was heavy-set or slender?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't particularly heavy-set, he was just a medium build.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was not of a light build, however?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. He was just about my size. I would say 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

Mr. DAVIS. Six-one.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you weigh?

Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 160, but I was a little bit heavier about that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you determine which of the fellows was shooting at Mr. Slack's target?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to both of them or all three of them?

Mr. DAVIS. Not as an individual. I spoke to the group to be sure they were firing at the right target and to watch where they were facing because they were shooting at the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Mr. Slack, now then, believes that one of the two of these fellows could have been Lee Harvey Oswald, is that right?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Slack has told you that?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Price was also there the same day?

Mr. DAVIS. He said he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. He also indicated that he thinks one of those two gentlemen was Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself had an opportunity to observe both of these gentlemen, did you not?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures which have been previously marked as Commission Exhibits Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455 and 456, and ask you if you recognize from these pictures the pictures of the individuals who were firing from booth No. 8, at your range on Sunday, November 17, 1963?

Mr. DAVIS. He sure looks familiar, but I couldn't say for sure. It sure looks familiar. This would have been the taller of the two, and this is almost----

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed to Commission Exhibit 451, and you think that gentleman resembles the taller of the two men that were firing from booth No. 8?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he is about the same size. The face features, I seem to have seen them before, but as far as--it sure looks like him. I couldn't say definitely that it was him, but it sure looks a lot like him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see any resemblance between any of the pictures which I have shown and the shorter of the two men?

Mr. DAVIS. The face on the other one, I couldn't say what it looked like. So many of these pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald have been shown to me, and they started showing me things about the time it all happened, and I would hate to say that it was him. But definitely this fellow, the taller of the two fellows was about his built. He looked like he is about my size. He may be a little bit shorter in those pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the facial features of the gentleman on 451?

Mr. DAVIS. Like I say, the features of his face are familiar, they seem to be familiar to me, but as far as definitely saying that was the person out there I----

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't do that?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; but it does look familiar, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you next a photograph that has previously been marked Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, which is a photograph of several individuals, one of whom has been marked by a green marker. I ask you if that picture bears any resemblance to either of the two men you saw firing from booth No. 8, at your rifle range on Sunday, November 17?

Mr. DAVIS. Like I said before I couldn't be too sure because I have saw so many pictures of this that look like Lee Harvey Oswald that they get to running together with them when I get to thinking about them, and I would hate to say that I was, because I have saw pictures of him in all different forms, in the newspapers, in--and also some that the police have brought out there, and the Grand Prairie police brought them, and some of the FBI, and I would hate to say because I was very much interested in the case at the time it did happen, because myself it was a blow to the business that I am in.

As far as someone with a high-powered rifle shooting the President like he did, I was afraid they were going to pass a bill which would stop that stuff, and it is like a hard blow to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. To your business at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your business actually fall off after the assassination?

Mr. DAVIS. It practically died on that thing. It just gradually--yesterday we had one person out there, compared to 80 and 90 when we first opened. Of course, they were in deer season. That had a lot to do with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been shown this picture that I just showed you before?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. 453-B?

Mr. DAVIS. Not that particular shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you an exhibit marked Pizzo 453-C, and ask you if you recognize that individual as being one of those who were at your range on the date we have been discussing?

Mr. DAVIS. I have saw that picture or similar one before.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have seen the picture before?

Mr. DAVIS. I have seen a picture similar to him before. There was a scar on his head, but as far as that is concerned, I don't believe I have saw the individual.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't identify that individual as either one of the two that was at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you Exhibit 451 again and ask you if that individual appears to you to be the same individual as Lee Harvey Oswald, based on your observation of Oswald's picture in the newspaper and the press?

Mr. DAVIS. That this is Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Does that appear to you to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It does not?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. This Mr. Price did say that Oswald was in an old model Chevrolet when he was out there on this Friday, the 9th, because it was late in the afternoon when he came out there.

And Mr. Price helped him sight that rifle in. Helped him sight the scope in on the rifle, and he had two comments to say about that rifle, sir.

I am not for sure, I don't know anything about it, but he said that the markings, all but the serial number had been filed off of this particular rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price did say that?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And he said that the scope was the clearest scope that he had ever seen for a small scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what size scope it was?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he told me, but as far as----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. DAVIS. Not the exact size of it. I know there was several different sizes of scopes on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The size of this scope is measured in terms of power?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. There is 2, 2-1/2, 4, 6, and on up. And he knows the sizes, what he was talking about, but I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Mr. Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have actually only known him since the rifle range opened. But two of his boys has helped us at the racetrack or helped my wife last summer, at the racetrack, all summer. And as far as an individual person, I didn't know him until we opened the gun range, other than just to speak to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old a fellow is he?

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price is approximately 35, and he does have a heart condition that the doctors won't let him work, as far as any work is concerned, and that is why he stays down at the range, more or less to watch it for us.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your opinion, is he a reliable fellow?

Mr. DAVIS. He is very reliable, or I wouldn't have him down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would say he saw Oswald if he didn't in fact see him?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. In fact, he told us about this before we called the FBI. But he was afraid--he's got five children, and he was afraid that it was some Communist plot or some gang that had done this, and he was afraid for his children, or he would have called them sooner.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is not a publicity seeker?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. I would say he was very sincere of this. It might have been a case about a double identity or someone that looked a lot like him. I would say definitely that he thought he saw him.

There was also some doctor or lawyer in Oak Cliff, and his son, that he said he saw him out there on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. That was on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Dr. Wood?

Mr. DAVIS. I believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dentist?

Mr. DAVIS. He might be a dentist. They told us at the range--Charlie Brown, I believe, afterwards, of the FBI, said that he wasn't sure it was him, but they told us previously they were sure that it was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever advised you as to the results of the tests they probably ran on or did run on the cartridge cases you gave them?

Mr. DAVIS. No; nothing. I asked them if they were all there when they returned them. He did return them, and he said they were all there, so I took it from that that they didn't find anything in the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether the cases that you gave the FBI were cases that were used in a rifle that were used by these gentlemen that were firing from booth No. 8, on November 17, 1963?

Mr. DAVIS. From what Mr. Price told me, he was down at the range helping out on the particular target. He saw these fellows pick up all the shells and--they shot that day, which is very frequent, because they reload a lot of that ammunition, but these particular fellows did pick them up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife observe these two individuals on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; she was in the office, she doesn't remember them, or she said before that she didn't remember them. She doesn't remember this part I was telling you about, about Slack coming to them and complaining about their shooting the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else said they saw Oswald on the 9th and 10th?

Mr. DAVIS. That was Mr. Price.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mr. Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. Mr. Slack said he saw him on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 17th only?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me Mr. Slack's full name?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't have it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is just a customer of yours, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir; Mr. Brown has talked to him before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price was not at the range on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. Price was at the range on the 17th; yes, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he also say that he thinks that these gentlemen were with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. He thought this one individual that was with this taller fellow in booth No. 8, was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Both Mr. Slack and Mr. Price came to that conclusion, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that both Mr. Price and Mr. Slack observed these two gentlemen on the 17th, but only Mr. Price observed them on the 9th and 10th, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Price thinks they are the same men?

Mr. DAVIS. He definitely thinks that it is the same man Oswald on the 9th and 10th. I don't believe he said there was anyone with him, and that he come out there just at dark, right before dark and was driving an old-model Chevrolet, or was in an old-model Chevrolet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it just a car or a station wagon?

Mr. DAVIS. I don't remember. He just said it was an old-model car, and he could have meant a station wagon when he said an old car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that these men at booth 8, were using?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not at anytime observe it?

Mr. DAVIS. I possibly could have when I walked up there, but I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you wouldn't be able to identify that rifle if I showed you a picture of it now?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; when you see as many rifles as I do out at that range out there, it would be hard unless there was something outstanding about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing outstanding about that that you can remember now?

Mr. DAVIS. I was more or less mad when I went down there, because someone was shooting at the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe these two gentlemen leaving the range on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had experience with the sighting in of rifles?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite experienced in that field, as a matter of fact, are you not?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have taught myself in the past 5 months of operation of that gun range to where I can usually sight one in within 8 to 10 shots pretty close. Mr. Price is a gun enthusiast and he is real good at it, and he has been doing it for a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. If a man purchased a rifle from a mail-order house that had a telescopic sight mounted on it, would you have any opinion as to what the accuracy of that rifle would be without it having actually been sighted in by actual firing of the rifle?

Mr. DAVIS. If the gun was anywhere near accurate, it would have to be an accident, because the slightest jar can knock a scope 2 or 3 foot out of balance, and there is no way that you could ship a gun and carry a gun around a little bit and make sure it being accurate. That is why your deer hunters practice and shoot their guns in every year before they go deer hunting. And I have saw them waste almost five boxes of shells trying to get them accurate down there after having sighted them in the year before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the technique of boresighting?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. If a rifle is boresighted is that enough to make it accurate?

Mr. DAVIS. By the average individual, no. And by the shops around Dallas here, no. Because they have brought us several guns out there that have been boresighted in various shops around Dallas and we have had to resight them, because another thing, the scope will have to be adjusted to the individual eyes, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that can only be done through firing a rifle?

Mr. DAVIS. That is right, that can only be done from firing a rifle and sighting it in. You can get it close, but you couldn't get it right on target, especially at a hundred yards.

Every gun I sight in, I boresight them myself at a 25-yard target to get them into the 25-yard target, and once I get it within an inch of the "bullseye," then I go to the long range, which is easy to bring it in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. DAVIS. Nothing; only I have dropped a poster off, advertising, when I first opened the gun range, and I am not familiar with the owner of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dial Ryder?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not the name. I may know the face, but I don't know the name.

Mr. LIEBELER. He works in the Irving Sports Shop.

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sights rifles and mounts scopes and things like that.

Mr. DAVIS. No; I am not familiar with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether you have ever sighted in a rifle that has been boresighted at the Irving Sports Shop?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not offhand. We usually don't ask them where they sighted the guns in because it is not a good idea to run down any gunshop.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the area around Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. Fairly familiar with it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to practice with a high-powered rifle around Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. It would be right about Bachman Lake, around the lake itself, as long as the police didn't catch you. There is the river bottom right in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to fire out there, to sight a rifle in without having a police notice it or someone in the neighborhood notice it and calling it to the police?

Mr. DAVIS. As long as you stayed 400 yards off the highway, there is places down there you could get that it would be possible.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are areas surrounding the field that are not built up to such an extent so that you could actually practice with a rifle in that area, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of anybody firing a rifle in that vicinity?

Mr. DAVIS. I have people all the time that have been practicing in the Trinity River bottoms around Dallas come out to the range and have been glad we opened that range so they could quit it because it is not a safe practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that near Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. The Trinity River bottom is not far from there. It is actually between Irving and Love Field.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from Love Field itself if you wanted to go to the Trinity River bottom and didn't have an automobile? Could you take a bus to Love Field or near Love Field and then walk that readily to the Trinity River bottom?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One could do that very easily?

Mr. DAVIS. It is a mile and a half.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I do want to ask you if you can give me, Mr. Davis, Mr. Slack's address?

Mr. DAVIS. I don't have it here, but I have some clippings at home out of a newspaper that has it there. He lives on Urbandale. If you have a Dallas phone book, I can probably get it out of the phone book.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price lives on Rice Street in Grand Prairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything that you would like to add to the record, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that.

Mr. DAVIS. The only thing that I would like to say is that there were several other people mentioned that they saw Oswald on the 17th, but they said they didn't want to get involved in it. I don't know whether they were just talking or what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names?

Mr. DAVIS. Not no particular persons. My wife, I'm sure, can tell you some of them. She more or less runs the gun range through the week, and I am only there through the weekend.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in, Mr. Davis. I appreciate your cooperation. The Commission wants you to know that it appreciates the fact that you have cooperated with us in the way you have. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA LOUISE DAVIS

The testimony of Virginia Louise Davis was taken at 10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission that is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

As I told your husband, whose testimony which I just took, Mr. Rankin sent you both a letter last week which was returned to Washington because it could not be delivered at the gun range. It was addressed to the Sports Drome Rifle Range and it could not be delivered there.

Mr. Rankin in the letter advised you that we would be in touch with you to arrange for the taking of your testimony. He enclosed copies of the Executive order and the congressional resolution, as well as a copy of the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

I gave your husband a copy of those documents and he has them and will make them available to you if you want to look at them. You have been provided with copies this morning.

As I told Mr. Davis, you are technically entitled to 3-days' notice before appearing before us, but since you are here, I presume that you would be willing to waive that notice and will go ahead?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at the rifle range which is operated by you and your husband.

Before I get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia Louise Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Floyd Guy Davis, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your address is 2825 Byway, Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Dallas; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband have been operating the Sports Drome Rifle Range since some time in October 1963; is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Dallas, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; Kentucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Kentucky?

Mrs. DAVIS. Louisville.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, let's see, it has been 7 years ago, I think. I think we have been here 7 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband moved to Dallas from Louisville together; is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. He came down about 6 months before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has had reports that various people observed a gentleman whom they believed to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis on various occasions. I would like to have you tell us now just what you know about those reports, and whether or not you have ever seen anybody there that resembled Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No. There is only three things that stand out in my mind at the time it happened that I can verify what they say, and that is the one night that I was there by myself and Mr. Howard Price got the last customer that came in and took him down there, and he said that he thought it was Lee Harvey Oswald because of the rifle, it being an Italian rifle with this scope on it, and he remembered the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price told you that?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. And then the other time I was there was, this gentleman that was supposed to have been with him with the beard, and I couldn't forget him--if I would see the man right now I would recognize him, but he has never been back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that Mr. Price said he took Oswald in, or this man who he thought was Oswald, who was the last customer?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know the exact date, but I wrote it in my journal, but I don't have it with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you refer to the journal, what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. It is a daily record I keep of everything that happens at the range. When we first opened, everyone had to sign it. But the FBI picked up the sign-in slips and checked it out, and, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't on it, but at the time we did not have fences up and anyone could get on the range without us knowing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not this man who Mr. Price took down to the range this evening as the last customer signed in the book or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. He did not. It was our last customer and he just went on down with him because it was late and they were tired and cold and wanting to get home. But he was in an old car and he was alone and he was a young slender man, and that is all I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of car it was?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price does?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he does. But I don't. It is just an old car to me. I don't know too much about cars and then the day that Mr. Slack came up there in a panic because someone was shooting at a target that he had paid for instead of his own, I remember that. That is the only three incidents that I remember, and that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first incident was when?

Mrs. DAVIS. A late customer when Mr. Price brought them in.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man was a late customer?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I did, but it was dark and I didn't see his face. I just went to the window and Mr. Price said, "I will take him. You won't have to take him down." We always take the customer to the range and stay with them and put their target up for them because you can't let them stay down there. They are liable to shoot anything, and he took him down, and I locked up, and I left, and they were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to identify this man if I showed you a picture of Oswald or someone else?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. The second incident was when Mr. Slack reported to you that someone was firing his target, is that correct? Or was that the third incident?

Mrs. DAVIS. That was the third incident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's cover that one. Mr. Slack came up to the office, you say, and complained that someone was firing on his target?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband went down there and asked the boys to quit firing at someone else's target, and he said something about, "Boys, you must fire at your own target," or something like that. And he got it straightened out, but they left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of these men at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I was in the office. I take care of that part of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man with the beard there at that time, do you know?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; that was on a Sunday afternoon or a Saturday. It was a Saturday or a Sunday, and the reason I remember him, it was the same day they said Oswald was out there, and I tried to talk to him, which I talked to everyone that comes in, and he was noticeable because he looked like the Castro type. He had this big beard and he was heavy set and big broad shoulders, and well, he was just outstanding in his appearance. He had big red earmuffs on and I couldn't help but notice him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know because he never spoke a word. I don't know if anyone was with him or not, but he did have several guns. When I say several, I mean not one or two. It was three or four, and he paid for each rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not see anyone with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Saturday or Sunday, you say?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a Saturday or a Sunday, and we was having turkey shoots at the time and having several people out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is when the man with the beard was there, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the same day that the gentleman complained about somebody firing into their target?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was. It was the same day they was complaining about the two boys next to him firing into his target.

Mr. LIEBELER. We mean Mr. Slack, do we not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mr. Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not see either of these two men who were supposedly firing into Mr. Slack's target?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not yourself personally observe any of those gentlemen or who was supposed to have been Lee Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe the rifle that was in the possession of this gentleman who was supposed to be Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; at the time I didn't know one gun from another. Now I can tell you everything they bring in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not on this Sunday that Mr. Slack complained that someone was firing into his target, everybody signed into the journal?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not everyone, because at the time we didn't have our fences up. See, we have a fence that is all along the gun range, because there were too many getting on the range without paying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not the two men who were supposed to be firing into Mr. Slack's target signed in the journal?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know one way or the other, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know, because the only reason we was having them sign in was to sign them cards to invite them to the next turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have seen them at the time they signed it, necessarily, or might someone else?

Mrs. DAVIS. Someone might sign in for them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you would not necessarily have observed these individuals signing in?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; because the man who was outstanding, he didn't sign in. I didn't see the man until he walked through the gun range. He didn't walk through the entrance, or I would have seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis mentioned the names of Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, and he said that there were some others.

Mrs. DAVIS. There was a doctor and his son that was out there that day. They remembered the rifle and they reported that to me before any of it came out in the paper, but I didn't get his name. But I do think that the FBI contacted this doctor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember his name if I told you it was Dr. Wood? Would that ring a bell with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, it doesn't. It has been so long ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, other than this doctor and Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, do you know of anyone else who said that they thought that they saw Oswald at the range?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I would take their word for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you mean by that. You must have somebody in mind, somebody who told you these stories, and I would like to have you tell them to us if you would.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, there was a mister--what is his name--Camplen, Charlie Camplen, and he said he was out there on a Wednesday.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that Oswald?----

Mrs. DAVIS. But I didn't get into any detail, so I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Camplen told you he saw Oswald on a Wednesday?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anybody else that has claimed to have seen Oswald at the range?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. James Thompson?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; Jim, he did say he thought he did, and I think he kind of backed off. I don't know what to believe. I just don't know. He said he wasn't going to say he did, because he couldn't swear to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day that he, Mr. Thompson, thought he might have seen Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was on a Sunday. It was the same Sunday, because he was helping run the targets down.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Thompson tell you about this?

Mrs. DAVIS. He told--he didn't talk to me too much about it. In fact, he said he don't remember. He couldn't say he actually saw him. At first he did say he saw him, and he did remember the incident about the target, and Slack, but he don't, he said he couldn't swear that it was Oswald. And we have never discussed it further.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thompson lives----

Mrs. DAVIS. He is with the Bardahl Co. He is a representative of Bardahl.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live in the 1100 block of Gilpin Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. B. G. Moses, do you know him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he is a neighbor. He lives across the street from me. But I just don't know about him. I mean, he hasn't had too much to say about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; in a way, he did, and well, in a way--he didn't actually come out and say--he said, "I think I saw him." I will put it that way. He thinks.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday that you had the incident concerning the target?

Mrs. DAVIS. He worked that week, but I don't know if he was down there or not that Sunday. It seems to me like he was working the trap. He was in the office, come in and out of the office, but I don't think he was on the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the Sunday we are speaking of?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the date of this Sunday?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I don't. I think it was around November, maybe the 13th, something like that. I wouldn't know unless I had my dates in front of me. I don't remember names or dates too well, but I remember faces.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the weekend before the assassination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was the last weekend preceding the assassination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; and we did quite a bit of advertising when we opened that range. The last week in October is when we opened the range, and we had in that month, we ran, let's see, it was 1600 and some people through there, so you know the word got around that it was a public gun range and was open.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that anybody who was interested in it would have known about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not Oswald was really at the range as a result of all these discussions?

Mrs. DAVIS. I really do think he was. I didn't see the man. I couldn't say one word, but I really think he was, sincerely, because the two men, especially Howard Price, he is the kind of person that you can believe what he says. He is intelligent. When he says he knows a rifle, he knows that rifle. He can get out there and dig out slugs, which he does, and melt them down to the lead, and he can tell you what slug is out of each gun, which I can't do. He is just a gun enthusiast and he loves it and he remembered that gun.

But that is the only thing I can say. I did not see the man and I couldn't say. I mean nothing except I would take his word for it. He wouldn't be the kind, and he told us this before it all come out in the paper, and the rifle, it hadn't been identified in the paper when he identified it. But Slack, I don't know too much about him. He is just a temperamental hothead. He was very hot, and they kept kicking his booth. He said they had odd shoes on and kept kicking his booth. If someone is knocking this desk, she couldn't write, and he kept knocking the side of the booth and he couldn't shoot, and that made him angry. But that is the only thing that I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion basically on the conversation you had with Mr. Price and your respect for Mr. Price's judgment?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price tell you, or did you learn how these men got to the rifle range?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they walk or come in a car?

Mrs. DAVIS. Now, Mr. Price said they came in a car, this old car. I think he knows the make of it, but like I say, I didn't see him. The only thing--only time I saw a car at a late arrival was the night I was telling you about that Price took him down there, but I saw the man get out, but that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price see these two men on the Sunday before the assassination when they had the incident over the target?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't think he was down there that day. I don't remember. I don't think so. I know Jim Thompson was working that day and Mr. Moses and my husband and I, and we never have over four, so I don't think we was--I may be mistaken, he may have been there, but not working for us, because he was there every day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Price was?

Mrs. DAVIS. Price was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anybody else who might have seen Oswald at the range, or this fellow they thought was Oswald, come and told you about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I sure can't.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. Is there anything that you can think of?

Mrs. DAVIS. I have thought and thought, and I would give anything if I could think of something or identify someone he was with. I think that would be more of a help to you people than anything, wouldn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it would.

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband did call in that he saw this bearded man. Do you have that on your records?

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband told us.

Mrs. DAVIS. He went right to the phone and called, because we were convinced. Do you know anybody that was with him that day? The man may be completely innocent, but we just feel that he was with him because he was so belligerent and stood around and he wouldn't talk. You don't find people like that at a gun range. They are really friendly and they come out to shoot and have a good time, and I have never had anyone treat me like he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. This bearded man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle that the bearded man had with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He had several, yes. He had them, but I couldn't identify them. I could now. They like for you to discuss their rifles with them when they come in. They think they are important, you know. And now I can identify a rifle, but I didn't know a rifle from a shotgun, a .22 from a 16-gauge shotgun. I mean, I didn't know the difference.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you wouldn't be able to identify the rifle that the bearded man had with him if I showed you pictures of a rifle?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; because like I say, at that time they were just guns.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you think would be helpful to us at this point, I will thank you for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. I want you to know the Commission appreciates it very much.

Mrs. DAVIS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM HOWARD PRICE, JR.

The testimony of Malcolm Howard Price, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, sir, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRICE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give to you a copy of that Executive order and of that joint resolution, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses.

We want to inquire of you concerning the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome Rifle Range, 8000 West Davis, sometime in November 1963.

Before we get into the details, I would like to have you state your full name for the record.

Mr. PRICE. It is Malcolm Howard Price, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Price?

Mr. PRICE. At 1127 Rice, Grand Prairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. PRICE. I was born at Graham, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life here in Texas?

Mr. PRICE. No; I have lived in Oklahoma for 4 years and in California for 5 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Dallas--this last time--in Grand Prairie?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, about 13 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. PRICE. April 6, 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed?

Mr. PRICE. I am retired--I am unemployed.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that's primarily because of the fact that you have a heart condition?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. PRICE. I have five.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with Sports Drome Rifle Range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; very familiar with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a matter of fact, you work there from time to time, do you not?

Mr. PRICE. I have helped them there--I'm not, as you say, employed, but I do help there from time to time. They are close friends of mine and I have helped them get the things set up and get it started.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to the Davises?

Mr. PRICE. Virginia and Floyd Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct?

Mr. PRICE. That's right. The first time that I saw this person was in September, the last week--the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon that they opened the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the last Saturday of September?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be September 28?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw this fellow?

Mr. PRICE. Well, it was just about dusky dark and he came in in an old model car, I would judge it was possibly a 1940 or 1941 model Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him?

Mr. PRICE. No; he was by himself, and I have heard that he couldn't drive, but he was driving that day because he was the only one in the car, and he came down and inquired if there was anyone there that could set a scope, a telescope on a rifle, and I told him that I could, and he said, well--he had one that he had had mounted and boresighted but it hadn't been fired on a range and that he would like to have it sighted in, so I went down and set up a target on a hundred yards.

Actually, he set the target up himself and I drove my car and turned the headlights on on the target and as I proceeded to set the rifle--I fired the rifle approximately 12 to--12 to 18 times I would say and zeroed it in on a hundred yards and Mr. Davis came in from work before we left and he also drove his pickup down and turned his lights on. He drove his pickup down on the opposite side and turned his lights on the target.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the opposite side of the target from your car?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; and Mrs. Davis went home--she was tired and wasn't feeling too good and she went home as soon as he got down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as Mr. Davis did?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Davis see this fellow at that time?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't know whether he saw him or not. He apparently don't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have discussed it with Mr. Davis?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, we have talked about it some, but he doesn't--he don't even recall turning his headlights on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did this man fire the rifle himself?

Mr. PRICE. He fired three shots after I had got it set to where I could fire a pattern, with three shots in a bull's eye. I turned it over to him and I said, "Now, I'm satisfied with it, you try it."

And, he fired three shots and he scored bull's eye with all three--a very tight pattern and he said, "Well, I am completely satisfied."

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did you charge him for zeroing the rifle in?

Mr. PRICE. I didn't charge him anything. I charged him $1 for the use of the range and that was all. I just did that as a favor to Floyd to help him get his business in. I figured this was just another hunter who had come down to get his rifle zeroed in for deer season.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversation with this fellow at that time?

Mr. PRICE. No, that was all. It was rather abrupt. He didn't talk too much, and I was kind of surprised that he didn't fire the rifle more. He just fired the three shots and he said, "Well, that's good enough," and he got up and left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the shell casings lying there at the range or did he take them with him?

Mr. PRICE. No, he took them with him--he picked them all up after the rifle was fired and took the shell casings along with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had an opportunity to observe the rifle, did you not?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, I had it in my hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be able to identify the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I believe I would--it was a foreign make rifle and I wasn't too familiar with it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see it again?

Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions that he was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go on to that, you indicated that in order to see the target you had to turn the lights of the automobile on and that of Mr. Davis' truck on; is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it light up at the rifle range from where you fired?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; we have neon lights there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't have any difficulty in seeing this fellow?

Mr. PRICE. No--no difficulty at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then this fellow just put the rifle in the car and drove off?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a gun case or anything like that?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if he did, he didn't bring it down to the firing house.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have anything he wrapped the rifle in?

Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of. In fact, the best I remember, when he got out of the car, he just picked the gun up out of the back seat because it wasn't wrapped in anything or wasn't in a case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow again?

Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions--one was 2 weeks later and at turkey shoot. It was Sunday, though, it was on a Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been in October sometime, then, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, it would.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last Saturday in September, which is the day you indicated was the first time you saw him was the 28th of September?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the day they opened. They opened in the afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 2 weeks later would have been the 12th of October, and the Sunday following would be the 13th of October; is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, somewhere around there. They had a turkey shoot and I went down to participate in a turkey shoot and he was sitting in Booth 6 or 8 and was firing on a 100-yard line with a heavy bore rifle and I didn't talk to him then, but the third time that I saw him there I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this time in October, the day of this turkey shoot, did you see that he had the same rifle you had observed?

Mr. PRICE. No, I didn't pay too much attention to that. I just saw him as he came by and he went on down to the booth. There are people that come down there and some of them have as high as six or seven different rifles. This Mr. Slack that you just talked to--I noticed him in particular because he had quite a variety every time he come down there--he had three or four rifles with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's nothing that happened on this second time that you saw that particularly stands out?

Mr. PRICE. Well--not that I know of personally, but I do understand there was a hassle between him and Mr. Slack over shooting the wrong target or something like that. I was over on the opposite end shooting at a target for the turkey shoot and I didn't pay any attention to that. That was their business.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that there was a hassle between this guy and Slack?

Mr. PRICE. It was Mr. Davis and Mrs. Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't remember anything that happened on this day, as far as this fellow was concerned?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back to the first time you saw him, was there anyone there at the rifle range besides this man, Mr. Davis and yourself?

Mr. PRICE. At the first time I saw him--me and Mrs. Davis was the only one there, and we were just fixing to close up and go home and he came in and, like I said, inquired if there was anybody that could set a telescope. I took him down to set his telescope and we stayed there that much longer and Mr. Davis came in and Mrs. Davis went on home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Davis have an opportunity to see this man?

Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of--she knew there was somebody there but she was inside the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nobody else there?

Mr. PRICE. There was no one else there.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him, the third time?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't remember just exactly when it was, but it was--it could be anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks later--I don't remember exactly, but it was on a Sunday, Sunday was the only time I went down there after that in a good while.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, this is Mr. Davis from the attorney general's office for the State of Texas.

Mr. Price has testified that he saw Oswald out at the Sports Drome Rifle Range.

Mr. PRICE. I don't remember the exact date on that, but the third time that I saw him he did have the same gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well----

Mr. PRICE. And I asked him if it was still doing the job, if it was still set, and he said, "It was shooting just fine," and Mr. Slack was there at the time and at this particular time--that might have been the day that they had the hassle there, I don't know, but they were sitting right next to one another--Mr. Slack was in booth 9 and Oswald was in booth 8, and he commented on his telescope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who commented on the telescope?

Mr. PRICE. Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Commented to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "It's one of the clearest telescopes that I have ever seen--one of the brightest." He said, "It's a Japanese scope and I gave $18 for it."

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he paid $18 for it?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a 4-power telescope and he said it was mounted on Redfield mounts. You see, they make mounts for several different guns, but I don't know one mount from another myself. I just took his word for it that it was a Redfield mount, but I looked through the scope and it was very clear. It was very bright and we compared it with two scopes that Mr. Slack had on his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth 7--I don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different American-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. You could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he paid $18 for the scope or did he say that he paid $18 for the whole works?

Mr. PRICE. No; he said he paid $18 for the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had it mounted?

Mr. PRICE. He said that he got the thing from a gunsmith in Cedar Hill for a debt, the gun, and that he bought the scope and that the gunsmith mounted it for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. The same gunsmith?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in Cedar Hill?

Mr. PRICE. It might be; but I don't know of any gunsmith in Cedar Hill.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that he did tell you it was done by a gunsmith in Cedar Hill?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; then, I questioned him about it, I told him, I said, "I didn't know there was a gunsmith in Cedar Hill."

Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?

Mr. PRICE. He said, "Yes; one over there and he owed me some money and he gave me this gun to settle the debt" and he said, "I bought the scope and he mounted it and boresighted it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where this gunsmith was located?

Mr. PRICE. No; he didn't say anything about the location other than it was in Cedar Hill.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what the guy's name was?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him that day or was he by himself?

Mr. PRICE. I don't know; I don't know whether he was by himself or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody else that seemed to be with him?

Mr. PRICE. No; there was a lot of people there and everybody was milling around talking to everybody else and I don't know whether he was with anyone or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the fellow that was in the booth on the other side of Mr. Slack, do you remember anything about him--I think you said.

Mr. PRICE. All I remember about him was that he was a big fellow with a long black--it was either black or dark red beard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him at all?

Mr. PRICE. Other than just to comment on his scope--I didn't have any conversation at all with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking about Oswald now?

Mr. PRICE. No; I'm talking about the fellow with the beard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look through his scope too?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to the fellow with the beard?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I suppose--he spoke to all of them--to Oswald and Slack both, about the clarity of the telescope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when they were talking about the clarity of Oswald's telescope?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow that you think was Oswald come or go from the range or did you just see him there then?

Mr. PRICE. I just saw him there. I just saw him there a couple of times.

Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of times that day?

Mr. PRICE. No; two separate times, I believe, that Oswald was present at the range both times that he was, as I remember, but I don't know whether they were there together or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. We are getting our wires crossed--you're talking now about the fellow with the beard?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You meant that he was there on the range a couple of different times?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he was there both times that I saw Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you saw Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. That I saw Oswald; yes. The second and third time.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw them come and go together?

Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to who came--whether they came and left together or how they got there, but just that one particular time--he was the only one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never noticed how Oswald came to the rifle range and left the range?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Except that first time you saw him?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anything else happen with relation to this fellow that you think was Oswald on this third time that you saw him there at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. No; it was just a conversation about the telescope is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle closely that day--you must have handled it in looking through the scope?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; I handled it--it was a Mauser-type rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that--I don't know anything about rifles?

Mr. PRICE. Well, it's strictly a military rifle and it's patterned after the German Mauser.

Mr. LIEBELER. A bolt-action rifle?

Mr. PRICE. A bolt action, and the general outline it had--about oh, possibly a six shot clip that set just ahead of the trigger, and I understand it was a 6.5 Italian, but at that time I didn't know. I thought it was a Mauser because there's a friend of mine in Grand Prairie that has an Argentine Mauser that was 7.6 and it looked very familiar--they looked a whole lot alike.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to look at any of the writing or printing that was stamped on the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, the only thing that I could see on it--I looked for a brand name so I could see approximately where it was made, and the only thing that I could find on it was a serial number.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look closely for a brand name?

Mr. PRICE. I didn't examine it too close.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number?

Mr. PRICE. I saw the serial number and the gun wasn't blued at the time--it had a bright finish on the barrel. It looked like it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, as far as--well, in an attempt to sporterize the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been worked on in some manner in an attempt to sporterize it?

Mr. PRICE. I thought it had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far did the barrel protrude from the stock of the rifle, how far did it stick out from the end of the stock?

Mr. PRICE. Possibly 6 or 8 inches at the most.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the stock been cut back in this attempt to sporterize the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I could tell--it was similar to a German Mauser and they have, you know, they have got a full length, almost a full length stock with a wooden piece on the top of them also.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the wooden piece on top was still on this rifle--which you did see?

Mr. PRICE. No; I don't believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off as part of the attempt to sporterize the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the end of the barrel been cut off?

Mr. PRICE. I don't know whether it had been cut off or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say the barrel had a shiny finish?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you two pictures that have been previously marked "Exhibits 3 and 4" on the deposition of Mr. Greener and ask you if you recognize that as the rifle that this man had at the range?

Mr. PRICE. [Examining instruments referred to.] Except for the sling and the forepiece--I would say they are the same gun. The gun had no sling on it. It did have the mounts on the side for a sling.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't have a sling on it?

Mr. PRICE. It didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say the forepiece?

Mr. PRICE. The forepiece is this top wooden piece; of course, that could be taken off and replaced very easily.

Mr. LIEBELER. The wooden piece that is on top of the barrel, is that what you are referring to?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that that was not on the rifle that you saw?

Mr. PRICE. No; it wasn't. This barrel has a step along in here somewhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. A step?

Mr. PRICE. A step along in here building it up to a larger diameter and another one here, which you can see.

Mr. LIEBELER. It gets larger by degrees as it comes back toward the action, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. That's right, and that's the reason I thought at the time that it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, but I'm not too familiar with the foreign made guns and I have learned since then that all Mauser rifles are that type--they are made that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. With these steps as they come back toward the action?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same kind of scope that you saw on the rifle that Oswald had, the fellow you thought was Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it had large receivers at both ends and I believe, now, I might not be right about the brand name, but I believe it was a Tascosa, since I examined it--it was a Japanese made scope. They make several different brands of those things--it could be any of them, but I believe, as I remember it--it was a Tascosa.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, if you took the sling off this rifle and took the top wooden piece off the barrel, you think it would look pretty much like the one that this fellow had?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before that when you examined this rifle, you looked for the brand name and you weren't able to find a brand name?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number?

Mr. PRICE. The serial number was--it was in here, in here, or in here--I believe it was right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the fore part of the action or the part of the rifle just before the action and immediately under the front edge of the scope, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; the largest diameter of the barrel. The clip is here.

Mr. LIEBELER. It fits in just in front of the trigger?

Mr. PRICE. It fits in just in front of the trigger there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will hand you some pictures and see if you can recognize any of the people in them as the man you saw at the rifle range--these have been previously marked "Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456."

Mr. PRICE. [Examining documents referred to.] Yes; this is the only one that has any similarity I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to No. 455--does that look like him?

Mr. PRICE. Well, these all seem like a photograph of the same fellow, but this is the only one that has any resemblance, as I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you another picture--it is a photograph of a street scene with several people in it and I show you two different pictures and ask you if you notice anybody in there as being the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; this one here and this one here--he has a part of the receding hairline on the right side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. PRICE. This one--right here--he's got a long--kind of a sharp nose.

Mr. LIEBELER. The pictures that I have just showed you do not have any marks on them, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you two other pictures which are the same as the pictures I just showed you except that they have some green marks on them.

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first picture I showed you--you have indicated on it that you recognized the man who has a green mark over his head.

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the identical picture which has been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B," and that is the man that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the second picture I showed you, you identified as the man you saw at the rifle range--the man who has a green "X" over him?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A." I'll show you a picture that has been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you recognize that as the man you saw on the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any questions about it at all?

Mr. PRICE. About that picture?

Mr. LIEBELER. Whether that's the fellow?

Mr. PRICE. Other than the scar or cut on his head, because he didn't have a cut on his head at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this fellow you saw was Lee Oswald, did you ever know his name?

Mr. PRICE. No; I never knew his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact it was Oswald--when did you first think that it was Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. When I saw him on television when they were transferring him from the Dallas jail.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you recognize him right away as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; and I contacted the FBI the next day. I debated on it all night whether I should call them or get mixed up with it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention it to anyone else, when you saw him on television?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; my family.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about it with anyone else before you told the FBI?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you talk with at the FBI, do you remember?

Mr. PRICE. Charlie Brown.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's see if we can establish the date of the last time that you saw this man at the rifle range. Do you recall that the President was assassinated on Friday, November 22? Can you tell us approximately how long prior to the assassination this time was that you saw the man?

Mr. PRICE. The last time I saw him was a week before Thanksgiving; Sunday before.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before Thanksgiving--that's the last time you saw him at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. That's the last time that I was down at the rifle range--the last time I went there until after, oh, a month or so after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it was the Sunday immediately preceding Thanksgiving?

Mr. PRICE. That's right; I was down there for the turkey shoot we had.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him at the rifle range that day?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the last Sunday before Thanksgiving was after the assassination.

Mr. PRICE. It was after?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you saw this man at the rifle range, you saw Oswald at the rifle range after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. I believe I did, because that was the last time that I went down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the time you saw him the last time and looked through the scope was the last time you were down at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the last day I was down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say it was the Sunday preceding Thanksgiving, are you sure about that?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I'm not exactly positive but it was getting close to Thanksgiving because I was trying to get a turkey.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you saw him after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure one way or the other?

Mr. PRICE. I know I haven't seen him after the assassination, but it was before this assassination--I was down there the last time and I was thinking it was a week before Thanksgiving, but anyhow, it was before the assassination, the Sunday before, but they were holding a turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before the assassination would have been the 17th--that would have been two Sundays before Thanksgiving.

Mr. PRICE. Well, it might be right--that's been so long ago--I'm not sure about the dates, I don't remember dates too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you were pretty clear in your mind you didn't see Oswald after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since. I have been down there quite often since December.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And business at the rifle range has fallen off since the assassination, rather sharply, hasn't it?

Mr. PRICE. Well, for a while it continued, but it has fallen off very sharply in the last, oh, in the last month and a half except for Sundays--they do have good business on Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you any pictures of anybody and ask you to identify them when they talked to you?

Mr. PRICE. It was the FBI or Secret Service, one of the two, I believe it was the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you any of the pictures that we have shown you this morning?

Mr. PRICE. They have shown one similar--they had three or four photos showing this bruise and cut on the forehead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you a picture of the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. I believe the Secret Service showed me a picture of the rifle. I told them the same thing--it wasn't made up exactly the same--it didn't have the sling, it didn't have the forepiece, like there had been an attempt to sporterize the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw this man at the rifle range--do you remember if there was anybody else there that you know?

Mr. PRICE. Garland Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw Mr. Slack?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else?

Mr. PRICE. Well, there was this big fellow--I don't know who he is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. No; I haven't. I understand that Mr. Davis saw him one time because he called me and told me that he saw him, about 2 weeks ago, and he turned the license number of the car over to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, have never seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else that last day at the rifle range that saw this man that might be able to identify him other than Mr. Slack and Mr. Davis?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I know of. There was a lot of people there--there were 300 or 400 people there. There could be any number of them that could identify him, but I don't know them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything about this subject that I haven't asked you about that you think I should have asked you about--anything you would like to add?

Mr. PRICE. No; a conversation I had with him about the telescope--I forgot that. I forgot to mention that--to Mr. Brown when he was out, and I don't know whether I mentioned that to the Secret Service agent or not. It will be in his report if I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. The conversation about the clarity of the scope?

Mr. PRICE. Yes. He wasn't--he didn't seem to be too talkative to anyone other than when he was talking about the telescope--he seemed rather proud of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him talk to this big fellow other than talk to him about this telescope on this time you have told us about?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I particular remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression as to whether they were together or not?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell one way or the other?

Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to it. There was--I just thought of it--there was a doctor and his son there at the same time and they were firing a .308 caliber Winchester, I believe--it was either a Winchester or a Remington and anyhow, they had identical guns and they were sharpening up for, I believe, they said they were going to Canada and they were there at the same time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the Sunday, the last time you saw him?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names--do you know what their names are?

Mr. PRICE. No; I don't--I don't know their names--I have heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember it if I mentioned it to you?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I might.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the doctor's name--Dr. Wood?

Mr. PRICE. That don't sound like it--there was a doctor there and his son--I know they were father and son.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was the son?

Mr. PRICE. He was in his early twenties, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did they talk to this fellow about the telescope?

Mr. PRICE. I don't remember whether they had any conversation with him or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you mention that?

Mr. PRICE. It's just the fact that they were there at the same time and I know they were talking to Garland Slack and there is a possibility that they either observed or talked to Oswald, because he was sitting next to Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have nothing else that you want to add--I don't think of any more questions. I want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have and it has been considerable cooperation because you got very short notice and you came very early this morning, and we appreciate this and we want you to know that the Commission appreciates this very much. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I try to help all I can. I don't remember dates too well--it's been quite some time. I can remember faces but I can't remember names and dates worth a hoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we sure appreciate your coming down.

Mr. DAVIS. Thanks again--we appreciate your coming down.

Mr. PRICE. You bet.

TESTIMONY OF GARLAND GLENWILL SLACK

The testimony of Garland Glenwill Slack was taken at 8:30 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up for just a moment, Mr. Slack. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated, sir.

Mr. Slack, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony and the testimony of other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the joint resolution and the Executive order and a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses.

Actually, Mr. Slack, you are entitled to 3 days' notice before you would be required to come and testify, and I realize we didn't give you that much notice but you are also entitled to waive the notice, and I assume that you will do so since you are here, and I assume that you are perfectly willing to go ahead, is that correct?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you today about the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome gun range sometime in the month of November 1963. Before we get into that, however, I would like you to state your full name for the record, if you would?

Mr. SLACK. Garland Glenwill Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work, sir?

Mr. SLACK. I work for myself. Heating contractors and real estate development.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. SLACK. 3130 DeLee Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many people do you have working with you?

Mr. SLACK. Just my wife and I now. We are on a semiretired basis. We were in the water business and we sold out our water business to the city of Dallas in June, and we are on a semiretired basis.

Mr. LIEBELER. In June of 1963?

Mr. SLACK. That's right; this last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Fifty-nine. No; I am 58. I will be 59, the 9th of May.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. SLACK. Two.

Mr. LIEBELER. They live here in Dallas?

Mr. SLACK. No. Johnny Glenwill is a mechanical engineer. He is working on a Government project in Richmond. Ind., and Marylyn Slack, she is the wife of an Air Force man, Vernon Stone, stationed at Burke Burnett. I have six grandkids. Our profession, we are in the real estate business. We just sell what we own. We own half a million dollars worth of property on the--on Military Parkway, and the heating business, we only do what people can force us to do, our old friends' jobs that we had put in 30 years ago. And we are on an area selling off all our land around us. We subdivide and sell off 10 or 12 lots, and when we get that finished, we subdivide another tract.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sports Drome gun range, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; quite familiar with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns it or runs it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; and I knew the man before he even took it over, the manager of the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Mr. Davis before he took it over?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; he ran a ditching machine and dug water ditches for the water works. I didn't know that until after we got real well acquainted, and I knew I had seen him, but I never could figure out until "Doc" Carter and Charlie Brown, they knew my full name and found out where I worked and who I was, and I said I knew him but where, I didn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you out at the rifle range at any time in November of 1963?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; we were there the Saturday before Armistice Day. We marked it on our calendar. That was November the 9th. We were out there late in the evening and there were not very many people there, because we got there in the really closing time. But we didn't even shoot the rifle because they wanted the people to go home. But we went back Sunday for this turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date?

Mr. SLACK. Now that was the 10th.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went back to the rifle range the immediately following Sunday, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. That is right, the 10th. Oswald was there the 10th. He was there the 17th. The 10th was the turkey shoot. And I contacted him three or four times trying to get him to pay a dollar and get in the turkey shoot. Ten men were paying a dollar a shoot, and he commented he could win the turkey but he didn't have the dollar.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was on the 10th, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. But had no direct contact no more than asked him like the 10 other fellows I talked to. That was my impression of him.

The next, the 17th, is where he and I had the run in, where he shot my target. I paid two bits and put up a target, and before I got ready to shoot it there would be somebody shoot a hole in it. So Lucille, my wife, she was with me. She was keeping score. We got to noticing who it was, and maybe he would shoot anybody's target, and I raised the devil. I didn't see why I have to pay my two bits and pay for a new target sheet and I'm shooting No. 9, and the rifle range operator came and told him not to shoot my target after that, and that is how I remember the part in his hair and the look on his face.

And I told him, I said, "You are not going to win no turkey shooting rapid fire."

He shot rapid fire about three or four times, and they had a cap full of shells and they were shooting--I mean he was burning up the ammunition. And I talked about that going back to Snug Harbor, because somebody is going to get hurt, because everybody shooting everybody's target.

And there was a bunch of ruffians shooting pistols, and there was lots of people. And I remember when I told him that, he give me a look that I never would forget it. That is the only reason I remember him when they showed him on television. It made me sick and I tried to figure out. It took me a day to figure out where I had seen him.

I said, Lucille, we own the waterworks and we know a lot of men and do a lot of things. We have a fish hatchery and we contacted maybe five or six people we don't know every day, and I didn't sleep at night for 3 nights until I pinned down where we saw him.

And I went to the rifle range and these four or five other people knew he had been there, but they were afraid to say anything about it.

But when I asked the manager, I said, "Oswald was over here," and he said, "Yes, I know he was." And they were afraid it would hurt their business.

And I told Charlie Brown and Doc Carter where I saw the fellow, and I think it was; everyone doubts if they knew anything at all on him, so they met me over there and between the three, they admitted sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this Charlie Brown that you referred to?

Mr. SLACK. He is the FBI man. He and Doc Carter, they came out two different times and I talked to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Carter is also an FBI agent?

Mr. SLACK. One was Secret Service and one was the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned there were other people out at the range who saw Oswald. Do you remember their names?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; because I was not taking their names. But I do know that they got the boy that worked on his rifle scope on Wednesday. That was in the middle of the week, between the 10th and the 17th. They got his deposition, because the boy, I know, put his scope on his rifle for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the boy's name?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't know his name. Never tried to find out his name. I never talked about it, because Charlie Brown and Doc Carter asked me not to tell what I knew, and that is all. I had nothing to gain. In other words, they took it up, what they found, I never knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you mentioned this fellow that put the scope on the rifle, how do you know? Tell us what you know about that?

Mr. SLACK. Because I read it in the paper about a week afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge yourself about the scope?

Mr. SLACK. No; there were so many different fellows working on the rifle range, there was possibly three or four boys who did it, and I never really connected which one it would be, because I wasn't doing any investigating anyway. See what I mean?

I felt like that knowing the guy and connecting it together, if I just kept my mouth shut and tried to just remember seeing the fellow, there was a lot of that done. It was done in our own family.

In other words, Vernon Stone was with me and Jimbo, he is 12 years old, the boy, and when it dawned on me where I saw him and I knew that I had my son-in-law take my gun, my custom-made gun out of Oswald's, take it out of his hand and put it in the car, because I was afraid he would steal it, and I told Vernon by long distance on the telephone, and Vernon did too, and well, he already had made up in his mind that he never had seen that fellow. He didn't remember anything, and Jimbo doesn't either. He didn't want to remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the incident about the rifle? Did Oswald have your rifle at any time?

Mr. SLACK. He handled my rifle and he handled my targets, that was the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald other than----

Mr. SLACK. The only time--I didn't specifically say to Oswald. I said to all the boys, to seven or eight shooters, about that rapid firing and about shooting other targets rather than the one they bought and paid for. If they were in chair 7, and there was a number down a 100 yards, No. 7, he was supposed to shoot No. 7.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you didn't say anything to him?

Mr. SLACK. That is all I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to see the rifle that he had?

Mr. SLACK. I absolutely saw the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle was it?

Mr. SLACK. It was an Italian type rifle, but it never showed in the newspapers, a picture of that rifle.

In other words, if the first picture that came out of the officer holding the rifle, that was on the floor of the Book Depository, if that was the gun, I had never seen that gun before, and I know rifles and I know scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference between it and the rifle you saw?

Mr. SLACK. The one he had was a small three-quarters, about seven hundred fifty thousandths diameter tube, a small tube no bigger than your thumb, with the windage gage. They were practicing. It was a cheap scope. Well, $5.66 scope. But it was sporterized. You cut the wood off of them. Short barrel.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, this rifle that Oswald had was a sporterized rifle? It had been rebuilt?

Mr. SLACK. Just as advertised. I have seen besides the Oswald, I have friends that have those rifles. I wouldn't shoot a toad frog with one of them, because I know that they are just junk.

In other words, you take that rifle as it was manufactured, and you cut the barrel off 8 inches, and you take all the wood off the top of the barrel and cut this off here, and varnish it, and have it blued, and it makes a pretty little gun. It was one that he had wrapped up and handed over the fence, but they had two other guns that type. They had no scopes on them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there somebody else?

Mr. SLACK. That Sunday there sure was. The tall boy had the biggest feet of any kid I ever saw, and about the time he would go to shoot, he would kick with his feet, and I said if my feet was that big I would bump somebody too.

He was the boy that drove him to that rifle range the 17th. They found the boy. He had no connection with him except he had driven him there.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know they found him?

Mr. SLACK. I read it in the paper. I don't know what his name was. Don't know where they found him, but they found him, and he had no connection with him, no more than I had. He just probably begged a ride and he took him to the rifle range, but they had three guns.

Lucille remembers the boy handing the guns over the fence, and they were throwing the guns in the back of the old model car and taking off like they did.

And I recognized that because a gun, a good gun, you are not supposed--they just threw those old guns in that car, or they took two of them. Of course, one was wrapped up in a blanket, a dirty looking old grey blanket that had a red trim, I remember. I remember that, because we found an old blanket at our house and I told Lucille I was trying to think, I knew it was something common, this good gun, it was wrapped up and tied up.

The sporterized Italian gun was tied up and he handed it over the fence nicely. And he had a grey and red maroon, looked slick as satin, and I remember it well, what a gun case--you see everything at a shooting place--some bring a rifle in a tote sack and--for a gun case.

The other thing I remember about that blanket he had wrapped around his gun, it was tied up with a rag string that was torn about an inch and a half wide out of a filling station type wipe cloth, a ribbon, pink, and he had torn it up and--to use as a rag string.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of car these fellows drove?

Mr. SLACK. No; I couldn't remember it, and Lucille couldn't except it was an older model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sedan?

Mr. SLACK. A four-door sedan, and it was a dark color, and he left there like a crazy bunch of hoodlums. And Lucille would remember that because she made a remark to me. You know how boys take off and make the dust fly.

Well we had--in other words, without having some reason, you wouldn't notice what kind of car it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture of a rifle. Two pictures that have previously been marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener, and ask you if that looks like the rifle they had at the rifle range?

Mr. SLACK. I don't remember a carrying strap on it, this rifle here. Of course, that is something you use to carry the gun, if you take it. That could be it, that is right, with the sling off. When I saw the gun the sling was not on it.

I don't think it had the wood up above the barrel, because when it is sporterized, as I remember, the whole barrel is painted blue.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was not as much wood to the front of the rifle on the one you saw at the range, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the scope? Was it the same kind of scope?

Mr. SLACK. I can say no. Pictures do something to you, but that scope seems like it is a 1-inch, that scope, according to the size of the gun and proportions of sizes. This is the same gun upside down, the other side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are pretty clear this isn't the rifle because of the wood that protrudes?

Mr. SLACK. This rifle had the barrel cut off. I know this rifle right here. This is proportionately, Mr. Liebeler----

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mr. SLACK. No; the sight is, the open sight is out on it since it has been cut off.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one that you saw at the rifle range had been cut off, is that correct?

Mr. SLACK. It had been cut off, and I will swear it had been reblued, and it did not have the front ramp sight of that rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the rifle you saw at the rifle range is not the same rifle as the picture I have just shown you, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. Now they had two other rifles that would fit that. They were not sporterized.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they didn't have scopes on them?

Mr. SLACK. They didn't have scopes on them.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that the rifle you saw at the range did have the barrel cut off and didn't have the sight on the front so it couldn't have been this rifle?

Mr. SLACK. I would say that. I would say that is not it, because the sporterized rifle, the shiny new one, I don't think it had the metal binding on it. The top wood, so this holds the top wood. Now, that is the type of rifle, see what I mean. But I really notice things about rifles like a jewelry man or a lady would about the setting of a ring. I wouldn't know--but I know rifles.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this was the same general type of rifle as the one you saw that had been sporterized and had the wood cut off?

Mr. SLACK. This is a magazine. You recognize one of them a mile off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures of a man or some men that have been previously marked Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456. I want to ask you if this looks like either one of the men that you saw at the rifle range on the 17th of November?

Mr. SLACK. The jacket was the first thing I remembered. When they described the jacket in the paper before I even looked at the fellow, because the man pulled a jacket off and put it on top of a load of sand you used it for a pad to shoot from----

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the guy you saw? Does anyone in those pictures look like him?

Mr. SLACK. Those heavy eyebrows and that part in the hair, but apparently he had more hair. Maybe he got a haircut afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who had more hair, the fellow?

Mr. SLACK. The picture. The man I saw in this picture right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man you saw had more hair?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; he sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that any of these pictures are a picture of the man that you saw at the rifle range that day?

Mr. SLACK. The difference in position he was in and everything, that looked like him, but he wasn't that sleepy-eyed. He was a cocky guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit 453?

Mr. SLACK. When he looked at me. I don't see how in the world he could ever get a pleasant look on his face like this picture here. Probably he could, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the picture 456 looks a little more pleasant than the fellow you remember seeing at the rifle range, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. He sure does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you another picture, Mr. Slack, that has been previously marked as Pizzo's 453-C, and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. SLACK. That is him. I would know that baby face and that chin, and he had a--I remember people, but no names.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the hair?

Mr. SLACK. That is the man I saw at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure about that?

Mr. SLACK. I know it is. In other words, just like if I saw you tomorrow. Because his eyes were deep like a man that was, that wears highly magnified glasses and then doesn't have his glasses on. And he had that deep--that is the man we saw out there. That is the man. And I would remember him 20 years from now, just over that one incident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that guy's picture in the paper?

Mr. SLACK. But he don't have a good--he didn't have a very good likeness of him, like the paper pictures. That was him as I saw him at the rifle range, and as I saw him I second before. No, one-tenth of a second before he was shot. That is the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on television?

Mr. SLACK. On television. And I saw when they were transferring him even before that. And I told Lucille, I told my wife, wait a minute, I've got to see the side of his face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you recognize the side of his face?

Mr. SLACK. But not positive enough until I got to see him at the time he was shot. You see, you read the papers and you get to where you imagine things and you find yourself imagining that you saw somebody, and I never had anything that made me as sick for 3 days. Absolutely made me sick of stretching my brain of trying to figure out what contact we had had with the guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. Take a look at that and see if you can recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. SLACK. The fifth fellow from the left, because I saw the side of his face quite a bit at the rifle range. He has rather a long nose and long chin and a high forehead. In other words, that was the thing about the man that I would remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. It is the same picture that I just showed you except that it has a green line over the fellow that you have indicated, does it not?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it is like this picture. Those are the front, no, he doesn't have a part. He didn't have that hair. I would remember his hair. And he had the hair that grew down his neck, all the way down into his jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say this fellow here in the picture, the fifth fellow from the left is not the person?

Mr. SLACK. That is the fellow. As I remember, this is the fellow that is under the green mark. But seemed like he had more hair. You see, I shot in one chair. I looked at the side of that fellow quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the fellow you saw at the rifle range had more hair than the fellow with the green mark?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, the wind blew and he was bareheaded. I guess he had a haircut in this picture here. He had quite a bit of hair on his back and on his neck like me. I need a haircut. But I remember, because on the television the hair was also down on his neck. Even more so than he shows in the picture there. Probably taken at different times and under different conditions. Just like this picture here, he is a pleasant looking fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow looks more pleasant than the guy you saw?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, at times, a fellow can be sorry on the world and still there would be a little fun come into him sometime. And he had big ears. His ears stood out, what I mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. The picture that you are looking at is 453-B, Pizzo's exhibit, that we have been referring to. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Slack. I want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. I know we gave you very little time and we appreciate it very much.

Mr. SLACK. We had already forgotten everything about it, and we figured it was, well, it was just some unpleasant memory, and it couldn't have shocked me. Now this newspaper, Gruber, was a press, a Washington pressman, was he some of your bunch?

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name?

Mr. SLACK. Gruber.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about him?

Mr. SLACK. He is the fellow that came to see me about 3 weeks ago. He called me three or four times and give me a lot of trouble, and I give him to understand that I didn't want to talk with him, because the newspaper had, I thought, made too big a show out of it.

And they used my name and used my address. They didn't put my picture, with the assassination, or the picture, but I expected it any time to come out, but I have a good friend with the Times Herald, Mr. Albert Jackson, and I called Albert and I told him not to send his men because I was not talking to the newspaper. My phone was tapped and they came out the next day and everything that I told Albert, the newspaperman, and I told him that, because I didn't want it to get in the paper. He never put it in their paper. My own friend never got anything, but the news, they got it all.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you think your telephone was tapped?

Mr. SLACK. I think it was because they had things in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think tapped it, the newspaper people?

Mr. SLACK. The FBI and the Secret Service, they didn't tap it. They don't do things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service doesn't?

Mr. SLACK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the FBI?

Mr. SLACK. They said they did not, and I blamed it on the newspaper. And they came and made a television picture of me and gave me an interview. And I wanted to know what identification they had and who they were with, and they fooled around and made about a 3-minute conversation and they never did show it, but it never was shown anyplace. Just newshounds. And they put up a big front that it was the Warren Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they?

Mr. SLACK. The television guys from Fort Worth, and they were in such a big hurry to leave, they just took my picture and took off. They had 15 minutes to get to Fort Worth, and I never heard any more of it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think they had anything to do with the Warren Commission.

TESTIMONY OF DR. HOMER WOOD

The testimony of Dr. Homer Wood was taken at 3 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Wood, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week. Did you get a letter from him?

Dr. WOOD. We each had an airmail letter from Washington, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Mr. Rankin included a copy of the Executive order to which I have first referred as well as a copy of the joint resolution of Congress and the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis Street in Dallas, Tex., sometime during November 1963--before going into the details of that particular incident, please state your full name for the record.

Dr. WOOD. Homer Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a dentist, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state briefly for us your educational background.

Dr. WOOD. Well, I had 2 years of predental at Southern Methodist University and 4 years at Baylor University College of Dentistry, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native Texan?

Dr. WOOD. I am a native Texan, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Dallas?

Dr. WOOD. Born in Besse May, Tex. It is a dead town now.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Dr. WOOD. July 4, 1910.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing dentistry?

Dr. WOOD. Since 1938.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is advised that sometime during November of 1963, you and your son, whose name I understand is Sterling Charles Wood, went to the Sports Drome Rifle Range, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct. If I recall correctly, it was on November 16. That was a Saturday afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear in your own mind that it was a Saturday that you went to the range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only time that you went to the rifle range during November?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time of day did you go out there?

Dr. WOOD. I was listening to the Southwest Conference football game. My boy kept asking me to "Hurry, daddy, I want to go to try my scope out on my gun," and I listened to half of the game. I presume when we got out there it was around 3 o'clock in the afternoon. At the rifle range, I am not definite, but it was between 3 and 5. We left before 5.

Mr. LIEBELER. Left the range before 5?

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get an opportunity to finish listening to the game?

Dr. WOOD. No; we didn't hear any more of the game.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened after you arrived at the range?

Dr. WOOD. Well, the range was pretty busy because it was just before deer season and most of the fellows out there was sighting in their scope, and we waited a short while to get a place for my boy to sit down to sight in his scope. Then when he did--now do you want me to start here with Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. I want you tell me just what happened.

Dr. WOOD. Okay. My boy was shooting his rifle, and there was a fellow sitting to his right. I thought it was an offbrand gun. It wasn't shooting like the other rifles there. When he would fire the rifle, at the end of the barrel there would be a ball of fire coming out at the end of the barrel, and that is what attracted my attention to this fellow.

When I said to my son, I said, "Son, be careful, I am afraid that gun is going to blow up." And I was kind of laughing and joking around with the other fellow that was waiting in--waiting to sight in their scope and I would hand him cotton and I would say, "Get ready, this fellow is getting ready to shoot this 105 howitzer." And I said to my son, step back, or lean over, or be careful, and he said, "Daddy, that is all right, it is an Italian carbine."

So they fired several rounds, and after they would fire three or four rounds, then the keeper out there would say let's go look at our targets, and we would go down and I would look at my boy's target and he wasn't doing so good, but the second round we went down there and we noticed this fellow's target to our right, and my boy made a statement, "Daddy, this fellow is not having much trouble." So I did notice his target, and most of his shots was within the target, but there were a few that was outside the target, from an inch to 2 inches outside of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Outside the bulls-eye?

Dr. WOOD. Bulls-eye. And that is as far as--do you want me to get into the Oswald deal now, or you just want me to go on and tell what he did, or are you going to ask me some questions?

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you first of all, did you talk to this fellow at all?

Dr. WOOD. I didn't say a word to him, but my son did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you at that time what he had said to the fellow?

Dr. WOOD. He didn't tell me at that time, no, sir. He told me later on.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you after the assassination, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes; after the assassination he told me that. Yes, sir; that is true.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you what he said to the fellow after the assassination. Now you mentioned previously that when you warned your son to be careful of that rifle because of your fear that it would blow up and that your son had told you, don't worry, it is an Italian carbine, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Well----

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is substantially what he had mentioned to you at the range, that it was Italian?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your son spoke to this man before he told you it was an Italian carbine, or not?

Dr. WOOD. I feel sure he did not speak to the man before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your son's statement was based only on his observation of the rifle, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. On his observation of the rifle and what he knows about guns, which is quite a bit. He studies about guns a lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think your son would be qualified to make a statement in this regard?

Dr. WOOD. I feel sure more so than I am. I know very little about guns, but he knows quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe this fellow leave the rifle range before you?

Dr. WOOD. I did not, but I didn't notice when the change was made, but my son said he did. He noticed that the fellow came there after my boy had sat down and this fellow had left before my boy had finished. The reason for that was, that my boy was having some trouble sighting in his scope, and he asked the keeper to help him. This fellow was there less than most of the fellows that was out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the keeper?

Dr. WOOD. I do not. He was a tall fellow; all I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Slender?

Dr. WOOD. Slender, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Floyd Davis?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he might have been the fellow that was helping my son, I don't know. But I recognized his picture later in the paper when it came out, and--that this fellow was there practicing, and I recognized the fellow as the fellow that helped my son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Helped your son sight in his scope?

Dr. WOOD. Helped my son sight in his scope, and I don't know who owned the range. I have no idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time subsequent to that that you were able to identify this man that you had seen there as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. WOOD. Would you repeat that?

Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw this man, you left the rifle range. Then later on the next Friday the President was assassinated, and at sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up Lee Harvey Oswald with this man that you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when and how you did that?

Dr. WOOD. I saw him flashed on the television screen at home several times. They would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring him back to his cell. This particular time I mentioned to my wife, I said to her, "Honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was sitting next to Sterling at the rifle range. But I am not going to say anything to Sterling because I want to see if he recognizes him and if he thinks it was."

Well, I would say within 30 minutes or an hour he was flashed back on the screen and he said to me, "Daddy, that is the fellow that was sitting next to me out on the rifle range."

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you, independently of your son, first noticed the resemblance between Oswald----

Dr. WOOD. And mentioned it to my wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Sterling was not in your presence at at time?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he was not in the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then later he came into the room, saw Oswald's picture on the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at the rifle range that previous Saturday, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not mention to Sterling in any way the resemblance between Oswald and the fellow at the rifle range prior to the time he mentioned it himself?

Dr. WOOD. No. They mentioned on the newscast that he was an ex-Marine. Well, I figured an ex-Marine would be a husky sort of fellow, and I kept watching him, and he didn't look like a Marine to me. But he was a Marine but he didn't seem to me to have the build.

He looked to me as a fairly frail man, not too strong, and that is the reason I wasn't thinking too much about it until he was flashed on the screen and then his profile just came to me that that was the man that was out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then after you had had this conversation and Sterling's observation?

Dr. WOOD. I said I think I should report that to either the Dallas police or FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do so?

Dr. WOOD. I did not until the following Monday. On Sunday, the next morning--this was Saturday night--on Sunday morning we went to church and my wife said after church, let's go down and look at the place where the President was assassinated. We haven't been down, so we went down there and we looked over the area and we walked back to our car, and I would say it was between 12 and 1 o'clock, and I turned on the radio in the car and it said Oswald had been shot.

So I said to my wife, well, I don't know whether it will do any good now to turn it in or not, and I didn't turn it in. But later on, on Monday I had a fellow in my office who works for the State comptroller's office and told him about this incident and he said, "Dr. Wood, I certainly would turn it in. Anything that you could do will help."

So after he left the office, I called the FBI and told them I thought I had some information that might be of importance to them concerning the Oswald case, and they talked to me, and this was on Monday. And I told them I was leaving town. I think I told them, I am not positive, but we went out, me and my wife and son went out to Uvalde deer hunting, and while we were out there--this was on, we went out Tuesday, and we were there Wednesday night, and Will Fritz of the Dallas police force called me and questioned me about my son and me and were we sure, and I said we were fairly sure that it was, and he wanted to know when we were coming back, and I said that me and my wife were thinking about going to Mexico so it will be Sunday before we return. And he said, when you return would you please call me.

Well, that was on the following Monday, and I called Will Fritz and he had two men from homicide come out and talk to me. And on my lunch hour, two FBI agents came out and talked with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this on Monday, too?

Dr. WOOD. It was on Monday. I believe. I am fairly sure it was on Monday because I called as soon as I came back, and I recall that when I called, there was the homicide, two officers from Will Fritz' office came, and as well as I remember, they called my office girl, the FBI called my office girl and asked could they come out to see me, and they came out around my lunch hour, and I talked to the FBI at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the agents that spoke to you?

Dr. WOOD. I don't remember the agents, sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that this fellow was firing closely enough so that you could be able to identify it?

Dr. WOOD. I don't think I could identify it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or the Dallas police show you any pictures of Oswald when they interviewed you?

Dr. WOOD. Both the Dallas police and the FBI, I think, showed me the same photograph that each showed me as they came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you identified that man in that photograph as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I put it in this category that I couldn't be absolutely positive, but in my mind I was positive that it was Oswald that I saw out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. They showed pictures also to your son, did they not?

Dr. WOOD. He said they did; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't there when they did?

Dr. WOOD. They interviewed my son at school. The Secret Service came out to his school, I think, a couple of times to see him, and an officer from Will Fritz' office came out once or twice to school to see him, and the FBI came out, I think, at the house on two occasions just before I got off from the office, and I never was there when my son saw either of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that the FBI subsequently showed your son a picture of the rifle used to assassinate the President?

Dr. WOOD. I knew this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that your son indicated that the picture that the FBI showed them was not the same rifle that was in possession of this man at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I am not aware of that. I am aware of the fact that he--he thinks he said that the rifle they first showed him was the rifle, but the scope was not the same scope that he showed them. I think that is what my boy said. I don't know for sure whether they showed him two different pictures or not, but one time they came out, the FBI come and stayed a very short while and said is this the scope. That is the way I understood my wife to say, and my boy said no, that is not the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously been marked as Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, and ask you if any of the pictures I show you resemble the men who you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I pick out someone nearest resembling--is that what you are asking me? Or is the likeness of either of these to him?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, is this the fellow you saw at the rifle range, do you think? Are any of these pictures of the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. May I ask this, that the profile that I got of the man, as I told the FBI, was not a profile like this. It was a lateral side profile, because I was facing in this angle, and I said I could only describe him from a lateral view and from the shoulder up, even though I walked down to the rifle range to the target with him. I did not pay a bit of attention to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So would the picture here, Commission Exhibit 454, be a lateral view of the type you describe.

Dr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is too much from the front?

Dr. WOOD. Well, now, that is a right lateral view. I assume his was a left lateral view. But still I would say that wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would say what?

Dr. WOOD. That was not the man that I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was not the man you saw?

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been previously marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in that photograph as the man you saw in the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man holding the paper facing me with a green mark above his head.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the green mark, with two marks above him? There are two different marks and you indicated the----

Dr. WOOD. The green marking above this fellow right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. That has an "X"-shaped mark.

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which has been marked Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you if any of the individuals there appear to be the same as the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man with one green marking above the top of his head is the--I would identify as the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, and ask you if you recognize that individual as the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Dr. WOOD. In my mind there is no doubt. If I just had to swear on a Bible, I couldn't, but in my mind, it is him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, you realize that you are testifying under oath.

Dr. WOOD. I know he is a dead man and all that, but I must say in my own mind it is him, I am positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures which have been marked Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener, and ask you if you recognize either of those pictures as the rifle in the possession of the man at the range?

Dr. WOOD. I didn't observe the rifle close enough to say either one of these was or wasn't. I only observed the way the rifle was fired, so I couldn't identify either one as being the rifle that assassinated, or the man that was shooting out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are unable to identify that as being the rifle either one way or the other?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was at the range when you observed this fellow who also observed him?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. I told the FBI of Kenney Longley. Dr. Longley's son, a dental surgeon, a friend of mine, was talking to me at the time they were shooting. He was getting ready to take over one of the booths, and I understand that later the FBI went out to interview him.

And he had two friends with him. They interviewed them too, but I have forgotten their names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they observe this individual also?

Dr. WOOD. Other than what I have said, the conversation that I was concerned about, and I handed them each cotton to put in their ears when he fired this rifle, and I don't know how much observation they made of the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with them the question of whether or not this man was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. WOOD. I haven't seen--I will retract that statement. I had seen Dr. Longley's son. He had a front tooth knocked out and Dr. Longley brought him over to my office, but nothing was mentioned about Oswald or this man at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Longley and those two friends are the only two men that you know of that were also at the range at that time?

Dr. WOOD. The only people I know. I couldn't identify another soul that was out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't discussed this either with Longley or his two friends?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. If you can think of anything else that you think ought to be on the record about this matter, I want you to feel free to go right ahead and say it. We want to get everything that you know about this.

Dr. WOOD. You mean help you out in the case or any feelings in the case?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; on the question of whether this was Oswald out there at the rifle range, or anything else, if you know any other facts about the case, we want to know those, too.

Dr. WOOD. I have elaborated pretty much to you about what I saw. I was a great admirer of the President and I felt that if there was anything I could do to help clarify or clear up the case, I was willing to do it, and that is why I reported.

Mr. LIEBELER. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown us, Dr. Wood.

Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF STERLING CHARLES WOOD

The testimony of Sterling Charles Wood was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up, Sterling, and raise your right hand? Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Sterling, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. WOOD. Glad to meet you.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses such as you by the Commission, pursuant to provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe that Mr. Rankin sent a letter to you and to your father last week, and that he enclosed copies of those two documents along with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony by the Commission or staff members. Do you remember getting that letter?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but I didn't read those rules.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is all right. Your father got them and you have them still in your possession?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. WOOD. Sterling Charles Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?

Mr. WOOD. Thirteen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you go to school?

Mr. WOOD. Boude Storey Junior High.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. WOOD. 1326 Alaska Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that you and your father went out to the Sports Drome Gun Range on West Davis at about 8000 West Davis sometime in November, is that correct?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that you went out there?

Mr. WOOD. It was the Saturday before. It was 6 days before the President was killed. It was a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday before he was assassinated?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went out to the range, just you and your father?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me about what time you got out there?

Mr. WOOD. I would say it was about 1:30, right after my daddy was off from work.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay out there?

Mr. WOOD. About an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went out there to sight your rifle in for deer hunting?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go deer hunting?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a deer?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; saw one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a shot at it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; I think I hit him and he jumped the fence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you and your father saw a man out there firing in the booth next to you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what happened right there at the rifle range that day?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I came out there. I had been shooting for about 10 or 15 minutes and he came up next to me and started shooting, and he only shot about 8 or 10 times and I noticed every time he got through shooting he would take the breech and open it up and put the shell in his pocket. We went down to check our target and I remembered that his was almost always in the bull's-eye. And as we came back to shoot again, I talked to him and I said, "Sir, is that a 6.5 Italian carbine?" And he said, "Yes, sir."

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask him that question?

Mr. WOOD. Because I read gun books and I was pretty sure that was a 6.5 Italian carbine and I wanted to make sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told your father about this, that that was an Italian carbine?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you express it?

Mr. WOOD. I said, "Daddy, it looks like a 6.5 Italian carbine," and I asked him if it was a four-power scope, because it was funny looking, it wasn't American, and he said, "Yes, it was."

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you talked to your father about this fellow or this rifle before you talked to this guy?

Mr. WOOD. I think I said that it looked like an Italian make gun, to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to your father?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember why you mentioned that particular gun to your father?

Mr. WOOD. Well, call it an Army rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?

Mr. WOOD. Well, you can tell it had been scratched up and it was a surplus gun. It was probably--you can tell it was probably used in the war.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else peculiar about this rifle that made you mention it to your father?

Mr. WOOD. It had a sawed-off barrel, shorter barrel than most rifles were.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did the barrel of the rifle stick out?

Mr. WOOD. About that far out of the stock.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that was about 3 or 4 inches?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the barrel was sawed off?

Mr. WOOD. You could tell it was shorter than most military rifles, and everytime he shot, a spit of fire would come out and I could feel the heat when he shot every time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a rifle do you have, Sterling?

Mr. WOOD. Winchester 30-30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about how long it is?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea. It is a shorter rifle than most of them, which is 30-30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long a yardstick is? Can you visualize that in your mind?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your rifle longer or shorter than a yardstick?

Mr. WOOD. It is about, I would say it was shorter than a yardstick, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the rifle that this fellow had, was it longer or shorter?

Mr. WOOD. Longer than a yard stick, because it is--a Winchester is a small gun to start off with, and a military rifle is a pretty long rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one, even though the barrel was sawed-off, you think it was still longer than a yardstick?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you guess about how much longer than a yardstick it would be?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; it wasn't too much bigger than a yardstick.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to this fellow any more than just ask him what you have already told us?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he said only two words to you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the range before you or after?

Mr. WOOD. Before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him go?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he go?

Mr. WOOD. He left with a man in a newer model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the model?

Mr. WOOD. No, I didn't. They went into the parking lot. They went around and I heard the car door slam and they took off, but it was a newer model.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car?

Mr. WOOD. It was a Ford, if I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. About what year would you say?

Mr. WOOD. I don't remember. I just knew it was a newer model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible or station wagon?

Mr. WOOD. It was a hardtop.

Mr. LIEBELER. A hardtop?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. About this other fellow that this guy was with, was he a big man or just----

Mr. WOOD. About the same size this man was.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall would you say this man was?

Mr. WOOD. Oh, about 5'9".

Mr. LIEBELER. About 5'9"?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the FBI talked to you about this once before or a couple of times, didn't they?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you now how this fellow left the range?

Mr. WOOD. What do you mean by that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you, did he go and get in a car or did he leave with somebody else?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember them asking you this?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him?

Mr. WOOD. I told him they left in a newer model car. He had to go around through the main office because that was 30 yards down and he had to come around and he left in a newer model car with this man, and he wasn't driving.

Mr. LIEBELER. That the man who you saw firing was not driving?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI what kind of car it was?

Mr. WOOD. I think I told him, I am pretty sure it was a Ford. That is what I remember, because I like Fords and I remember what a Ford looks like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that this fellow who you saw shooting this rifle left with another man?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear about that?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also told that the fellow you saw shooting the rifle wasn't driving the car, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now later on the next week after the President was assassinated, did you see a picture of this man or observe his picture on television or the radio or newspaper, or see him in any other way?

Mr. WOOD. Are you talking about Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that was firing at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. That is what made me notice him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mr. WOOD. The man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. You could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more than I did anybody else. So when I saw the picture on television that night, I was sure it was him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke to your father about it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; we went to get a paper about the assassination and I said, "Dad, that does look like the man to me." And he said it did, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your father mention it to you first, or did you mention it to your father?

Mr. WOOD. I mentioned it to him first.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned it to him first?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your mother there when you mentioned it to him?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; she was out. We had gone out to get a paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time you saw this guy's picture was in the newspaper, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; I kept remembering how he looked and I finally told my dad.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told your father that this guy you saw at the rifle range looked like Oswald, based on the picture of Oswald in the newspaper?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever read in the newspaper anything about Oswald's ability to drive an automobile?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I didn't read anything about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald could drive a car or not?

Mr. WOOD. I think he could, because my mother told me something about him going to Mexico or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that your mother told you something about Oswald going to Mexico, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never were aware of the fact or heard that Oswald could not drive a car, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Do you mean--I didn't get what you said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever tell you that Oswald couldn't drive a car?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know that now?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I thought he could drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this other man that he was with fire a rifle at all?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, I want to show you some pictures of some men, and these pictures have previously been marked as Commission's Exhibit 451 and 453 through 456, sir. There are five of them. I want you to look at them and tell me if any of the pictures look like the guy you saw at the rifle range that you think was Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. None of those look like him?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. WOOD. That one with the paper in his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. WOOD. That man right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one right here?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head. There are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that picture before?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. One like it?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has been one like that in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you two pictures that have been previously marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. Tell me whether that is the rifle the man had?

Mr. WOOD. It does look like the rifle, but the scope looks a little funny to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. What looks funny about the scope?

Mr. WOOD. Because I seem to remember when I got a glance, it seemed to get bigger at the end and get smaller as it went along.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that is not the scope that was on the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure, but I would say that looks like a foreign made scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one in this picture does?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty sure in your own mind that the scope that was on the rifle at the range was not an American scope, is that correct?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; it looked Japanese.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, you noticed how the sling is mounted on this rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is mounted on the side on the butt, is it not? And on the side of the rifle, also?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the sling was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure. It was either mounted underneath or on the side. I am not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't remember one way or the other?

Mr. WOOD. I think it was mounted on the side. I am not too sure. I wouldn't want to be positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you remember that the FBI showed you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same picture?

Mr. WOOD. As I remember, it looks like the same picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that the weapon in the picture that they showed you was not the one you observed out at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. I said that was not the one. It didn't have this background in it. It's a picture that he showed me.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same picture the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, the FBI did show you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; it was an enlarged picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them that that was the rifle that the man you think is Oswald had, or was not the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I told them that was not the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told them that was not the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The rifle in this picture, is this the same rifle? Can you tell, or a different rifle that was in the picture that the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. You mean to say--I don't know what you said.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent showed you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the rifle that he showed you, the picture that he showed you, the picture of the same rifle as is in the picture we have here on the desk, or were they different rifles or can you tell?

Mr. WOOD. I think they were the same rifles, except the rifle that he showed me didn't have that scope. I told them that that wasn't the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you told me just now?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; so it would be a different rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is this. Note that I am not asking you now whether this rifle is the same as the one that the fellow at the rifle range had, or whether or not the rifle that the FBI showed you, or the picture that the FBI showed you, was a picture of the same rifle that Oswald had on the rifle range--I just want to know now whether you can tell me whether the picture that I am showing you now is a picture of the same rifle as the FBI showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you still say now that the scope on this rifle doesn't look like the scope the guy at the rifle range had?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this is the same scope as in the picture that the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you about the sling mount on the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I think they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them about that?

Mr. WOOD. I think I told them it was mounted on the underneath, I am not too sure. I wasn't too positive then when I told them that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure now?

Mr. WOOD. I am not sure now, because I didn't have that long of glance.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the FBI agent talk to you? Did he try to convince you that it wasn't the same rifle, or just show the picture and let you tell?

Mr. WOOD. Let me tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't try to convince you one way or the other?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; he didn't try to force me one way or the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the scope that we have here on this rifle is enlarged at the forward end, is it not?

Mr. WOOD. It is big towards the muzzle of the rifle; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the scope was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range, too?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but it was the same size as that, and it got smaller as it came to a point, but it was a big point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, this one here is big at the back and it gets smaller in the middle, and then gets bigger at the front end. Now tell me the difference between this one and the one that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. This was bigger and it got smaller as it went along.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't get bigger at the forward end?

Mr. WOOD. No; I didn't get that good a glance, but what I saw is what I told you.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, you are pretty sure in your own mind that that was Lee Oswald that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Kenney Longley?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he out there that day?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he see this guy?

Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I think I did, because I was standing, he was waiting in a booth to shoot. They all were filled up, and he stood back there and was noticing it, too. He noticed the fire coming out of the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you talked to Kenney Longley about this fellow at the rifle range since the assassination?

Mr. WOOD. I haven't seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else out there at the range that day that you knew?

Mr. WOOD. A friend of mine, Charles McDowell, but he was busy gathering shells.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't see this guy, as far as you know?

Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him. I don't think so. Maybe he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McDowell about it since the assassination?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask McDowell whether he saw this fellow?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; but I am pretty sure, because he was right next to him, and he was down under the booth gathering shells.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you have talked to McDowell about this guy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you talk to him about?

Mr. WOOD. I talked to him about, I told him that very same night I talked to my daddy, and I called him on the phone and told him that I saw that man out there, and we talked about the President's death, and that was all. He said he remembered him, too, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you thought that the fellow at the rifle range was Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. WOOD. He didn't know, and he wasn't too sure, but he wasn't as close as I was to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does this fellow live?

Mr. WOOD. McDowell?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. WOOD. Marsalis, the first street over from where I do. I don't know the address.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Sterling, I don't think I have any more questions that I can think of right now, but I want to say this: If you can think of anything else about this fellow that I haven't asked you about, or that you think you should tell me, I want you to tell me now so we can get it on the record.

Mr. WOOD. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I have to tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty good shot?

Mr. WOOD. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Sterling, I want to thank you very much. You have been very helpful. I hope we weren't too hard on you. The Commission wants you to know that it appreciates the cooperation you have given to us.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much.

Mr. WOOD. All right.

TESTIMONY OF THERESA WOOD

The testimony of Theresa Wood was taken at 4 p.m., on April 1 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a staff attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Mr. Rankin wrote a letter to your husband and your son last week, telling them that he wanted to question them. I have just concluded questioning both of them. I would like to ask you a couple of questions about some points that came up during their statements.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, for the record, please?

Mrs. WOOD. My married name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; your married name.

Mrs. WOOD. Theresa Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the wife of Dr. Homer Wood, are you not?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the mother of Sterling Charles Wood?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that sometime after the assassination of the President, your husband saw a picture of Oswald either in the newspaper or on television and said something to you about it? Do you remember that?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened, and the circumstances and what you saw?

Mrs. WOOD. He thought he was the same man they saw out at the gun range. In fact, he was sure of it. And he asked Sterling, and Sterling said, "Yes, daddy, it is the same man." And they were very, very sure of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling in the room? Did your husband first see Oswald's picture on the television or in the newspapers; do you remember?

Mrs. WOOD. I don't remember exactly. I think it was the newspapers or somewhere. They had three pictures of him. I think it was in the newspapers. Could have been on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling there at the time your husband first spoke of this to you?

Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't think so. I think he later asked Sterling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he asked Sterling, or whether Sterling mentioned it of his own accord without any prompting from his father? Do you remember how that happened?

Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't remember exactly. I know they were both talking about it. They were both pretty sure that he was the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection at this point that your husband first saw a picture and said to you, now, in substance, that this looked like the man he saw on the rifle range and he wanted to wait and see if Sterling recognized him also, and that he purposely did not mention it to Sterling, but waited to see if Sterling would come forward with the same idea? Do you remember that happening?

Mrs. WOOD. No; my husband was very, very sure. In fact, he was positive. And there was a friend that they met at the range. I think it was the same day. He called him to see if he thought, or if he had recognized Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that friends name?

Mrs. WOOD. It was Kenny Longley.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't talk to Longley, did you?

Mrs. WOOD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did?

Mrs. WOOD. I think my husband called, but he never did talk to the boy. The boy was in school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he ever talked to the boy about it afterward?

Mrs. WOOD. I don't think so. Kenney Longley though was a good ways off or something, and I don't know whether he really saw him. According to my husband, he said he could have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was out at the rifle range that your husband or your son knew who might have seen this fellow?

Mrs. WOOD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is about all I wanted to ask you. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

TESTIMONY OF GLENN EMMETT SMITH

The testimony of Glenn Emmett Smith was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you sometime last week advising you that I would be in touch with you to take your testimony. I understand also that he included with his letter a copy of the Executive order and resolution just referred to, together with a copy of the rules of procedure for the taking of testimony which have been adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution described above.

Did you receive the letter from Mr. Rankin?

Mr. SMITH. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those documents were enclosed with it, were they not? Three different documents in that letter?

Mr. SMITH. [Hands papers to attorney.] I'd better let you look, for I don't know what is in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you today concerning any knowledge you may have about the alleged sale of a rifle by an individual thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald to one Robert Taylor. We would also like to get from you any information that you have about Oswald's associates in Irving, Tex.

Before we get to the details of that testimony, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Glenn Emmett Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. SMITH. 1604 Argentia, apartment C.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed?

Mr. SMITH. At Jack's Super Shell, Rock Island and Story Road, Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed there?

Mr. SMITH. Since the 25th of April of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity do you work at the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. I am a drive attendant. I work the driveway.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do prior to the time that you went to work for the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. I was an income tax consultant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Worked in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you engaged in that?

Mr. SMITH. Just through the tax months, from January 1 to the 15th of April.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you usually do? Do you usually work service stations?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. SMITH. Fifty-three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. No. I have been here since 1936.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live prior to that time?

Mr. SMITH. Shawnee, Okla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born in Oklahoma or born in Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Born in Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved to Oklahoma?

Mr. SMITH. Moved to Oklahoma.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved back to Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Moved back to Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know one Robert Taylor?

Mr. SMITH. I think I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him?

Mr. SMITH. Since I went to work, since the 25th of April 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Taylor also employed at the Shell station where you worked?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I don't know if he is going to be let out or not. He is off sick, and I understand that Mr. Smith has hired another man, which I know he got a man working. I don't know if he is going to let Robert come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mr. Taylor did work at the Shell station from at least April of 1963, up until sometime when he became ill, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. He was working there when I went to work, and he worked there steadily.

Mr. LIEBELER. He became ill?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did he get sick?

Mr. SMITH. He has been off a week and a half now. He went home sick Saturday a week ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. He hasn't been at work since that time?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he come back and worked 3 hours last Friday and had to go home again.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work does Mr. Taylor do at the station? He is--is he a driveway attendant?

Mr. SMITH. No; a mechanic.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually have a shop there at the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. We do minor repairs, no major, just minor repair.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old is Mr. Taylor, do you know, possibly?

Mr. SMITH. I think he is 49. I believe he told me he is 49.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Taylor about a man who Taylor thought might be or was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I did not. I heard Mr. Taylor, if I may tell you this----

Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell me what you know about it.

Mr. SMITH. There was an FBI man called out and talked to us, and I heard Mr. Taylor tell him between customers now, I was just catching little words, and not enough to make very much sense, but I did hear him tell that he had traded a rifle or bought a rifle or something from Oswald.

Now I didn't know Oswald. He showed us his picture, but I didn't know him. He had been through there but I didn't recognize him.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI showed you Oswald's picture?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't recognize him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

You see, sir--to my knowledge, I have never seen he or his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear Mr. Taylor discussing this rifle that he bought from this fellow, before the FBI fellow talked to him?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the FBI man came to the station? Would that have been in about the middle of December of 1963?

Mr. SMITH. I'd be afraid to commit myself. I don't remember when he was there. It's been about 2 or 3 months ago or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the man's name?

Mr. SMITH. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that his name was Morris J. White? Do you remember that was his name or don't you remember?

Mr. SMITH. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember that you told the FBI agent that you had heard conversation that Taylor had purchased a rifle from some customer, and that that customer was thought by Taylor to be Lee Harvey Oswald? Didn't you tell that to the FBI agent?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; absolutely not. I am absolutely positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time you ever heard anything about this rifle that Taylor was supposed to have purchased was when the FBI agent was interviewing Taylor, isn't that your statement?

Mr. SMITH. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard anything about it from Taylor or anyone else prior to that time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question of the rifle with Taylor after the FBI agent was there?

Mr. SMITH. Nothing more than he told me that let's see now, Bob said he had traded a rifle, and that is about all. We were busy, and he said he traded a rifle, and that was the day that he showed the picture to me, the picture that the FBI man showed me, and that was all that was said about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Taylor told you afterwards that the FBI agent had showed him a picture and this picture was supposed to be a picture of Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. He showed both of us the picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. He showed both of you the picture?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Taylor told you after the FBI agent left that the picture that the FBI agent showed you was a picture of the man from whom Taylor had purchased the rifle, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. He told the FBI man that. He didn't tell me that after he left, but he definitely told him that in my presence. I heard him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with Taylor after the FBI agent left about this question?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with anybody else about it?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the rifle that Taylor supposedly purchased from this man?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Taylor ever tell you what kind of rifle it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never heard from anybody what kind of rifle it was?

Mr. SMITH. I never heard anything about it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Taylor?

Mr. SMITH. I never knew him until I went to work there. Just by working with him, that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never associated with him outside of work?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever formed any opinion as to Taylor's truthfulness or his reliability?

Mr. SMITH. I think he is truthful, and I think he is reliable.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would tell the FBI agent that he got a rifle from this fellow if he didn't in fact get a rifle from this fellow?

Mr. SMITH. I don't. I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where 2515 West Fifth Street is in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been there?

Mr. SMITH. I have taken a lady home that lived there, to bring a car back to service it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember approximately when that was?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, we serviced her car quite often. What I mean, washed it and greased it, and she comes in occasionally now, but not like she used to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you gone to her house more than once to bring the car back to the station?

Mr. SMITH. To the best of my knowledge, I believe three times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were all of these times prior to the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember approximately when the first time was that you took this lady home to her house and brought the car back to the station?

Mr. SMITH. Well----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember now that you first started to work for the station in the last of April 1963? Can you remember approximately how long after that it was when you first went to this address on Fifth Street?

Mr. SMITH. I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no idea?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. A month, or 2 months, or just don't remember?

Mr. SMITH. Possibly 2 or 3 months, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ever have any conversation with this lady during the time that you drove with her back to her house?

Mr. SMITH. Nothing more than just passing the time of day. The only thing, she made the statement one time, the first time I took her home, that she got a little child and she said the baby, he could speak Russian better than he could English. That is the first time I knew there was any Russian blood there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you they were Russian, or just told you the little child could speak Russian?

Mr. SMITH. That is all she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. That the child could speak Russian better than English?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see anyone other than this lady and her children at the house on Fifth Street in Irving?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually go into the house on any occasion?

Mr. SMITH. I helped her. I carried some groceries in her house one time. She had a carload of groceries, and I helped her put them in the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many children were with her at that time?

Mr. SMITH. Three, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three children?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any judgment as to approximately how old they were? Did it appear to you that they were all her children, or weren't the ages so that it seemed to you that maybe one was the child of somebody else?

Mr. SMITH. I had an idea they were all hers. They were approximately, looked like spaced out about a year or year and a half apart, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which child this lady said could speak Russian better than she could speak English?

Mr. SMITH. The baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. The youngest one?

Mr. SMITH. The youngest one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing this young baby speaking Russian?

Mr. SMITH. I did, but I didn't know what she was talking about. I couldn't understand it, and that is the reason she told me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else speak Russian to the child?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear the lady speak Russian?

Mr. SMITH. No, I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the other two children speak Russian?

Mr. SMITH. They didn't do no talking.

Mr. LIEBELER. In either English or Russian; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you describe this lady for us?

Mr. SMITH. She is a slender woman, tall, slender woman; has very nice personality, and that is about all that I can say for her. She didn't do much talking either.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever make a statement to you that she was Russian herself?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. She just indicated to you that the little baby spoke Russian better than English, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how it came to be that baby spoke Russian?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't ask her?

Mr. SMITH. I didn't ask her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you curious about that?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I was. I went back to the station and talked to the boss about it. I told him, "I believe those people are Russian people living down there," and he said why, and I told him about the lady telling me the little fellow spoke Russian better than English. And they were curious about it, but nothing was ever said. We didn't say anything to her, because she just come in and got gas and that was all. She never did talk much or anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn what this lady's name was?

Mr. SMITH. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know what it is today?

Mr. SMITH. I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this child a boy or girl, or could you tell?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know. I never paid any attention to it. I don't know if it was or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether it was a boy or girl?

Mr. SMITH. Well. I didn't know, because I didn't notice. I didn't pay any attention whether it was a boy or girl.

Ordinarily, when I take a car home out there, I try to get there and back as fast as I can and I don't pay any attention other than the house number and what time it is supposed to be delivered.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car did this lady have?

Mr. SMITH. It is a station wagon. I believe a Plymouth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately what year?

Mr. SMITH. About a '53 or '54.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure it is a Plymouth, or could it be some other car?

Mr. SMITH. No; I am not positive. It is either a Plymouth or a Chevrolet. I am not positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen this lady at any time other than when she brought her car to the gas station to have it serviced, or when you took her to her house?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there ever anyone with this lady other than the children at any time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet this lady's husband?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that they were separated from each other?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you went into the house this first time to take the groceries in, as I understand it, that was the time when the youngest child was speaking Russian, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you went into the house, you brought the groceries into the kitchen, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. No; I set them down in the living room. She told me to put them on the coffee table, and I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at that time see anything that would indicate to you that there was someone else in the house?

Mr. SMITH. The house was awfully dirty. Boy, I never saw such a mess in my life. Things were on the floor, clothing and papers and everything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea when you went into the house with her that there might be someone else in the house or was someone there in the house when you came in?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell one way or the other? You didn't see into the bedrooms, did you?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There could have been someone else in the bedrooms and you wouldn't have seen them?

Mr. SMITH. There could have been.

Mr. LIEBELER. The lady didn't speak to anybody or call out when she came into the house to anyone else?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. This lady never indicated to you that this child that spoke Russian was not, in fact, her own child, did she?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You always assumed it was this lady's child?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you five different pictures that have been marked in a previous procedure as Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456. I want you to look at them and tell me if you have seen the individuals depicted in these pictures at any time?

Mr. SMITH. [Looking] No, sir; I sure don't recognize him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize any of these?

Mr. SMITH. I don't ever remember seeing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph which has been marked previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B. It is a picture of several people, but one of the individuals has been indicated by a green mark on the face of the photo and I ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I do not recognize him.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another photograph which has been marked previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C and ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. I asked you before, did I not, whether you have ever seen this rifle that Mr. Taylor told you he had purchased?

Mr. SMITH. I have not seen it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Smith. If you can think of anything that you know that you think the Commission might be interested in, whether I have asked you about it or haven't asked you, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that.

Mr. SMITH. Well, I don't think I have a thing in the world, because actually I didn't know Oswald or his wife, either one. I don't ever remember seeing them.

And I do want to tell you this. At the time President Kennedy was assassinated, I thought this woman who lived on Fifth Street, right after it happened, I thought that was his wife simply because of her saying that this child spoke Russian and the police arrested Oswald, and I figured in my own mind that this was his wife, but it turned out differently, and that is the only thing that I learned about.

Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that it wasn't this lady's husband that was involved, by reading the newspapers, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and as far as if this lady that lived on Fifth Street had a husband, I have never seen a man around there at all, and I have never seen a man with her. Ordinarily, just human nature would cause a man and his wife to be together sometime.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have never seen this lady with her husband?

Mr. SMITH. I have never seen her with a man.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Smith, for coming in, I appreciate it.

Mr. SMITH. I wish there was something I could do, but I don't know a thing in the world I could help you with, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. I appreciate it very much.

TESTIMONY OF W. W. SEMINGSEN

The testimony of W. W. Semingsen was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please rise and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Mr. Semingsen my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which has been appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The staff counsel have been authorized by the Commission to take testimony pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week telling you we would be in touch with you to take your testimony, and he sent that letter along with copies of the Executive order and joint resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony is that not correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I received Mr. Rankin's letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you today concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald received money order telegrams through the offices of Western Union here in Dallas, or possibly in Fort Worth or Irving, and also briefly as to a money order telegram sent by Jack Ruby to an associate of his on November 24, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. My name is W. W. Semingsen.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed, sir?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. The Western Union Telegraph Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity are you employed?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. As vice president, Gulf Division, headquarters, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of your duties with the Western Union Co. in that position?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. They are administrative and executive in capacity. I have jurisdiction over the operations in eight of the Gulf Division states.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are those States?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as vice president of the Gulf Division, are you generally familiar with the recordkeeping procedures, the manner in which records of telegrams sent or received are kept by the company?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not in direct supervision of the recordkeeping procedure?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. No; I am not. That is delegated to various supervisory employees.

Mr. LIEBELER. But in your capacity as vice president, you are thoroughly familiar with the way records are kept by the company?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes. I do have knowledge of recordkeeping, general knowledge of recordkeeping.

Mr. LIEBELER. In anticipation of the fact that your testimony would be taken by the Commission, you have prepared a statement which is dated March 30, 1964, which consists of five pages relating to the efforts made by Western Union in investigating the possibility that money orders payable to Oswald or his alias, O. H. Lee and Alek James Hidell, may have been received in the Dallas or Fort Worth or Irving office of Western Union? And also relating to telegrams sent or received by Jack Ruby during certain indicated periods; is that not correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that document as Exhibit 3001.

I have marked the memorandum received as Exhibit 3001 on the deposition of W. W. Semingsen, March 31, 1964, Dallas, Tex., and have initialed it, and I will ask you also to initial it, if you would, Mr. Semingsen.

(Witness initials and signs on page 5.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you did prepare this report in anticipation of giving testimony to the Commission?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I did, in the interest of expediting the testimony.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are thoroughly familiar with the matters set forth in Exhibit 3001, are you not?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. The material set forth in that memorandum is true and correct, to the best of your knowledge, is it not?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. We should note for the record that Exhibit 3001 has in the left-hand margin certain numerals which I have placed there running from 1 through 7, which refers to attachments to the exhibit, which, in effect, form a part of the memorandum. And, you have marked, have you not, the exhibits running 1 through 7 which you intend should be a part of the memorandum; is that correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. The attachments to the exhibit, which are numbered 1 through 7, are photostatic copies of the originals of certain documents, or of copies of certain documents which you retain in your possession, as are described in Exhibit 3001; is that correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I refer specifically to the item marked "Attachment 1 to Exhibit 3001," which consists of photostatic copies of four separate documents. Please identify for the record the first one of those documents.

Mr. SEMINGSEN. The first one of the documents on page 1 of the attachment is the original money order application prepared and filed by Jack Ruby in Dallas, Tex., on November 24, 1963, at 11:17 a.m., as noted by the automatic time stamp shown on the application.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark that as Exhibit No. 5118, and note for the record that we are marking these at the request of Mr. Hubert, who has the responsibility for area 5 of the investigation, relating to Mr. Ruby.

I have marked the document referred to as Exhibit 5118 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, March 31, 1964, in Dallas, Tex., and have initialed it, and ask you to initial it also, if you would, Mr. Semingsen.

Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.]

Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to Exhibit 3001, is what, Mr. Semingsen?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. It is the duplicate or carbon copy of the original money order receipt given to Jack Ruby at the time he filed the money order application. The original of this receipt was given to Mr. Ruby and found in his possession by the police at the time of his arrest.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the copy which you have just described as Exhibit 5119 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. [Also introduced as Lane Exhibits Nos. 5118 and 5119.]

I have initialed the copy which you have just described, and ask that you also initial it, please.

Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.] I have so done.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to Exhibit 3001, is what, sir?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. This is the original money order receipt, showing the signature of the money order payable to Karen Bennett at Fort Worth, Tex., on November 24, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the third document to which we just referred as Exhibit 5120 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, and have initialed it. I notice that you have already initialed that exhibit; is that not correct, Mr. Semingsen?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next document forming a part of attachment No. 1 to Exhibit 3001, is what, sir?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is a copy of the original money order message received in Fort Worth authorizing the payment of the money to the payee.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark that telegram as 5121 on the deposition of Mr. W. W. Semingsen, Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. I have initialed it and ask you, sir, to do the same. [Also introduced as Strong Exhibits Nos. 5120 and 5121.]

Mr. SEMINGSEN. [Initials.] And I have so done.

Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1 of your memorandum, Exhibit 3001, you indicate that a search of your records in the Dallas, Tex., office show that no money orders payable to Lee Harvey Oswald or his aliases, O. H. Lee or Alek James Hidell, went through that office during the period June through November 1963; is that correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you came to that conclusion?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. A search was made of our "Received money order file" for the period mentioned by supervisory employees, and no "Received money orders" were found. The "Received money orders" are filed in date order.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it a fact, Mr. Semingsen, that the receiving office of your company--in this case, Dallas, Tex.--actually keeps records showing the receipt of money orders payable to any person who received money orders through that office?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who issued instructions that this search be made?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. I issued the instructions at the request of the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you personally satisfied that the search was carried out in a thorough manner and that there are in fact no records in the possession of the Western Union Telegraph Co. that would indicate that any money orders payable in the names mentioned above during the period June through November 1963, exist?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am satisfied that a very thorough search was made by competent supervisory personnel who are familiar with our records.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are in fact satisfied that there are no records in the possession of your company that would indicate that money order telegrams had been received by Oswald under his own name or other names during that period; is that correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. I am satisfied as to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, also on the bottom of page 1 of your memorandum you indicate that no telegrams were sent by Lee Harvey Oswald or by any person under the name of the two aliases which we have mentioned, through the Dallas, Tex., office during the period September 1 to November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you came to that conclusion?

Mr. SEMINGSEN. The same supervisory personnel who made the search for the "Received money orders" made the search for any telegram sent by Lee Harvey Oswald and alias already mentioned. The search was confined to "Sent paid cash message" and to "Sent collect messages."

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