Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (10 of 26): Hearings Vol. X (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Mr. JENNER. You didn't delve into that?

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir--that says, "Dallas" doesn't it--10-62. I was thinking it was a Fort Worth employer--I did not go into that, as I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think it was a Fort Worth employer, as a matter of fact.

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know--why it seemed to stick in my head that that Leslie Welding was Fort Worth, whether he told me he had worked briefly in Fort Worth or how it got there.

Mr. JENNER. You have no entries in any of those papers to refer to the fact that he had been in Russia and that he returned from Russia with his Russian wife--why is that?

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think that in the kind of job we are in, sir; we never know who is sitting beside us. We are, as I say, a public agency and there is a certain amount of information that is supplied us by the applicant, and ours is not an investigative procedure. There is a certain amount of information that one accepts and works from, and I think that I would not have thought this a pertinent entry on this employment.

He was back in the United States. I would work on the assumption that the Federal Government would know why he was back and had given him permission to be back. Sometimes, with noncitizens, we ask for some kind of an emigration card or a visa and make that kind of an inquiry. This young man came to me, presented as an American citizen, the record indicated that; he had served in our Armed Forces and I guess that I would also add, rightly or wrongly, that in my judgment this could have blocked his getting employment here and if the employer learned it by questioning him when he was an applicant, he would make use of the information as he saw fit.

Basically, I try to assume that the other guy is telling me the truth and unless it is apparent that some things don't stack up, I don't probe and say, "Now, what were you doing between so and so and so," or if there is a big gap which could indicate a prison sentence or hospitalization or what have you, I would probe there. If he has his dates befuddled, I may work with him to help him to recall or suggest to him that maybe some home work--he ought to write all this down so that when he is filling an application form out for work so that he can get it accurate.

As you well know, this is not too cosmopolitan an area, with people with a lot of backgrounds in it, and you see "Oswald" is not again a name that would indicate anything but an American background--the appearance of the American, his speech, and so I just give those two basic reasons.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to whether he spoke Russian with a view in mind possibly of recording that as a job qualification?

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I did not. If he had been apparently a Russian citizen or of Russian derivation, I could well have done it, as I enter Spanish, or Polish, or German, and I would not think that Russian would be very helpful because all of this background doesn't say--translator--or again any of the rare jobs or professional, does it, and that in our classification is professional work.

Mr. JENNER. I can think of nothing else that has stimulated me to inquire further of you. I appreciate very much your coming over and this has been a helpful interview and at some inconvenience to you, I appreciate. You have been very helpful and very cooperative. Now, you may read your deposition, make any corrections in it you wish, sign it and Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime next week. If you will call Mr. Barefoot Sanders' office and speak with his secretary, she will let you know when it is ready to be read.

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Let me make a note as to when and where.

Mr. JENNER. All right--she will have it for you, and thank you again very much.

TESTIMONY OF R. L. ADAMS

The testimony of R. L. Adams was taken at 1:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, Assistant Attorney General of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Adams, would you rise and be sworn, please?

Mr. ADAMS. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in the testimony which you are about to give on deposition that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. ADAMS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff on the President's Commission, which, as I believe you know, was authorized to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson added to that legislative authority by an Executive Order 11130 appointing the Commission and fixed its powers and duties. In general its duties are directed towards investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

This has brought us as members of the staff and the Commission itself to inquire into a rather wide range of circumstances, including running down a lot of things that have arisen by way of rumor and otherwise, to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

One of the people towards whom our particular inquiries have been directed is Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have testimony from a host of people who had some contact with him during his lifetime.

The particular assignment of our division, Mr. Liebeler and I and others helping us, is of Mr. Oswald's life from the day he came on this earth until his death on the 24th of November 1963.

If I may ask you some questions--I understand you had some contact with him or in your official capacity in the Texas Employment Commission, you in turn have people under your supervision and direction at least who had contact with him?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. R. L. Adams of the Texas Employment Commission, and is that located at 1025 Elm Street?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you would, would you state your official position with the Texas Employment Commission, please?

Mr. ADAMS. I am employed as a placement interviewer.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have persons under your supervision and direction?

Mr. ADAMS. No; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what is the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. The Texas Employment Commission is the Texas version of the Federal-State Employment Service. As such, it is operated and jointly federal-state funded, and seeks to assist those people who are unemployed primarily through finding employment for them and in the event that we are unable to do so, to provide them with unemployment compensation for such time as they may be eligible.

Mr. JENNER. I happen to be an Illinoian myself. I practice law in Chicago--it's tied in with the Unemployment Compensation Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And those who had suffered unemployment seek the assistance of the Texas Employment Commission to obtain for them new employment?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How does that operate, do you--do the employers register with you or they call you up--I would like to have you give me a normal operation so that we can compare that background on normalcy against what might have occurred with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. ADAMS. Normally, employers in all categories of business and industry will use many avenues to obtain suitable employees. One of them, hopefully used by most of them, is the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. JENNER. I said to you that my impression from the depositions we have taken is that your commission does have and is held in reasonably high regard by employers and the ones I have interviewed have indicated that they may resort to the commission rather frequently.

Mr. ADAMS. I am delighted to hear it. It is a selling job--this is not your main thing, but because it is a State-Federal organization, it has been subjected to a lot of unpleasant publicity which was formerly known as the Texas Unemployment Commission, which did nothing to enhance it.

I worked on the street for a while calling on businesses and more often than not I ran into people who were very dissatisfied with the commission because of previous poor service, or alleged poor service, and in the time that I have been with the commission, 2 years, I think we have striven to improve the quality of service, both to employers and to applicants and so employers do call us. Some of them have standing orders with us. Some of them use us once and they don't get what they want and that's the last we hear from them, but by the same token we hope that all people unemployed would come to us in the course of their efforts to find jobs. I think many people mistakenly assume that TEC exists to find them jobs. This is not true. TEC exists to help them find jobs and in the course of their job seeking, they, I suspect 75 percent of them, will register with TEC and with other agencies.

Mr. JENNER. Other like agencies or private employment agencies?

Mr. ADAMS. Private agencies and, of course, we have the continuing battle of the public versus private activities.

Mr. JENNER. The scope of employment, that is the work, is of great variety, is it, the jobs that are being served?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; all the way from laborers up through doctors of philosophy in varying fields.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever seek, for example, let's use a hypothetical day--you mention a doctor of philosophy--let's say he had a Ph. D. in geology, and he came to the commission. You do not have at the moment, let us say, with respect to this hypothetical Ph. D., an inquiry from a prospective employer. Do you mean that the TEC would in that kind of an incident--a man of quite high education, would you seek a position for him by calling possible employers?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; we would do this and we refer to it either as job development or the projection of a highly qualified applicant to selected employers who might be in need of such a man.

Mr. JENNER. When did you become employed by or connected with the TEC, as you call it?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, I retired from the United States Air Force in January of 1960, and attempted to be a salesman for about a year and thereby losing my hat and shirt, and I decided I had misused the talents that I had mastered in the service and returned to Government service.

Mr. JENNER. That was when?

Mr. ADAMS. I joined TEC on March 9, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area?

Mr. ADAMS. No, I am a Chicagoan.

Mr. JENNER. You are--so am I. I think I mentioned that. How old are you?

Mr. ADAMS. I am 47, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when in your position with TEC you had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and give all the circumstances as you now recall, in the chronology that you recall?

Mr. ADAMS. I can't, except that my memory was refreshed by my office manager subsequent to the events of November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Having refreshed your recollection, do you now have a recollection?

Mr. ADAMS. Vaguely.

Mr. JENNER. Well, give us your best recollection--your best present recollection of this event and relate it.

Mr. ADAMS. At the time that I--in September, beginning the second week in September of 1963, I was brought in from employment service representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to gain some experience on a placement desk.

After I had been there, well, when November the 22d rolled around and a couple of months--when this happened, the following Monday morning when I came to work, I said, "I'll bet that boy is in my files."

I went to check and I couldn't find any record of it and the office manager said, "What are you looking for?" And I said, "You know what I am looking for." And he said, "I've found it."

Mr. JENNER. Who is the office manager?

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. A. K. Sayre [spelling] S-a-y-r-e.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still with the TEC?

Mr. ADAMS. He is still the office manager--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, then, is there a lady there by the name of Louise Latham?

Mr. ADAMS. She resigned from the Texas Employment Commission effective yesterday, but she lives in the local area.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mrs. Louise Latham?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he said, "No, you didn't." And I said, "Then my only recollection about him was he was a nonentity, just another applicant who was neither outstanding or, I mean--inadequate."

Mr. JENNER. He made no impression on you?

Mr. ADAMS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of records are kept with respect to job applicants, those who are seeking positions, and they are placed or not placed, what kind of record would I expect to find if I looked?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, there are several--one a Lindex strip is at the receptionist which purportedly has a listing of all of the applicants who are currently registered with our office. Then, for each applicant there are one or more application cards covering a primary code, an occupational code which is that code in which we feel he is best qualified, the additional cards being for secondary codes for other jobs for which he might be qualified for or which he may have performed in the past, so that there would be one or more application cards, a Lindex strip, and the counseling records if the individual had been counseled.

Mr. JENNER. Now, assuming Mrs. Latham assisted Lee Oswald in obtaining a position, a record of some kind--some kind of a recordation of that fact would be made?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, on the application--on the individual's application card, the face gives essential information as to names, address, telephone number, birthdate, height, weight, education, the job code to which he has been assigned, the high school from which he graduated, the college which he attended and/or which he graduated, special skills which he may possess in the use of business machines, and any hobbies which might be job oriented, such as skin diving and things of that sort, and the back side shows the jobs the individual has held, beginning with the most recent and going back to the most significant job he has held.

Inside the folded card, one-half of the upper half is for comments concerning availability of public or private transportation, the minimum salary the individual is willing to accept, any restrictions or qualifications the individual may place on employment.

The other half of the upper portion indicates whether or not the individual has been counseled. It may include pertinent information such as the individual has been under psychiatric care, has a Police record, anything which might be necessary in discussing this individual intelligently with an employer.

The bottom half lists the referrals or attempted referrals of this individual for employment.

Each time an attempt is made to contact the individual, an entry will be made indicating the date when the contact is attempted, the method, that is, whether by telephone, by telephone message or by mail, the date on which he was referred, if he was referred, or if he was not referred, whether he refused the job or whether he was found not qualified; if he was referred, whether or not he was hired; if he was a claimant, whether or not--if he rejected the job--that information was sent to the claims office indicating that he had rejected employment or rejected an offer of employment, anything pertaining to this particular job offer is shown on a given line or lines, as it might be.

Mr. JENNER. And are they now in the possession of TEC, records of that character relating to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know from my own knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would Mr. Sayre know that?

Mr. ADAMS. It is my belief that these records are in the hands of the FBI or Secret Service, but he would know.

Mr. JENNER. Were photostatic copies made, do you know?

Mr. ADAMS. That, I don't know, sir. Apparently, I did talk to him on the phone several times, because the card indicates that I had done so and I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall when you were interviewed by Mr. Odum of the FBI on the 27th of November 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At that time you appeared to have a recollection of a telephone call from Oswald on October 8, in response to a message of your own of October 7, 1963. Do you recall that incident?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I couldn't say that I positively do. If the record says I did, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I take it, that a record of the transaction was made?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If it occurred?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have no recollection independent of that record?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir--if I might clarify that, sir, by saying that in the case of an applicant with whom one has repeated dealings, whether good or bad, these would stick. Otherwise, one talks to anywhere to 10 to 30 applicants a day, day in and day out, personally and by telephone and with the exception of those applicants with whom I have had extensive dealings either because they are problem cases or because they are really outstanding good applicants, I don't remember that. If confronted by one, I could be able to say, "Yes; I have talked to that man," but otherwise I couldn't.

Mr. JENNER. You apparently indicated to Mr. Odum, a reference on your part on October 8, to Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas, do you recall referring him to the Solid State Electronics Co. on or about the 8th of October 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. I can recall having had that order because it was unusual in the sense that I had not dealt with an order of that type before from a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts who wanted an individual who had had some knowledge of electronics or electronics parts. Presumably, if I referred to--Mr. Oswald, it was because his military or civilian background indicated he had had training in this field.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any more about that incident?

Mr. ADAMS. No; I can't say I do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the nature of the job was?

Mr. ADAMS. As best I can recall, it was where--it was loosely what we called a parts counterman.

Mr. JENNER. Parts counterman?

Mr. ADAMS. A sales clerk.

Mr. JENNER. A sales clerk?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; in sales.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the salary was?

Mr. ADAMS. It seems to me it was quite good for the Dallas area. I would guess it was in the neighborhood of in excess of $75 a week, it seems.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that that reference was made to Oswald then by telephone rather than his coming into your office?

Mr. ADAMS. My policy as a placement interviewer, sir, is this: If I have once met an applicant and then there is not a long lapse until such time as I have an opening to discuss with him, or on which to refer him, I will refer him by telephone if I think he is otherwise qualified.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his coming into the office the 8th or the 9th of October?

Mr. ADAMS. I couldn't honestly say that I do; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would this registration card have some entry in that respect, if he came in?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, possibly. The policy in our office is that each month an individual should be contacted either by phone or in person. If a person is contacted more than once, either by phone or in person, only the initial date for that month is shown. It is repetitive and takes up a lot of unnecessary space.

Mr. JENNER. Does Burton-Dixie Co. awaken or refresh your recollection in this connection?

Mr. ADAMS. Only to the extent that they are one of the employers with whom I have dealt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes?

Mr. ADAMS. And, in making these referrals, I have found in my short time with the Commission that it is not too wise to be bound entirely by the employer's stated requirements. I can best explain this by saying that as recently as yesterday I referred a young man on an order which I had had for a week and on which I had made prior referrals of individuals who, in my opinion, were at least as well-qualified and certainly made a better appearance and yet this last individual was the man who was hired. So, when I first determined this, I decided that I would not certainly make wholesale referrals without regard to the employer's requirements, but on the other hand, in any case where I thought the individual was such that the employer might see in him something that I did not see, I wouldn't take a chance. I would refer him if I felt he met any or many of the employer's basic requirements.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any incidents of any others in the agency who sought to assist Oswald, of which you have any knowledge?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; subsequent to these incidents, I am aware that other people in the Commission had talked to Mr. Oswald prior to November 22d.

Mr. JENNER. But what you have stated is the extent of your contact with him?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, and am I correct, that he was not employed or hired by the Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas on your reference?

Mr. ADAMS. To the best of my knowledge he was not hired on any of the jobs to which I referred him.

Mr. JENNER. And does the name Trans-Texas stimulate your recollection as to any possible reference?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November, Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy----

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Roy?

Mr. ADAMS. He is not the station manager, he is the--I really don't know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are called by the airline industry--we call them baggage, cargo handlers, and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out those who met the qualifications.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out?

Mr. ADAMS. If the record indicates, he was.

Mr. JENNER. But here again you have no recollection beyond what the record shows?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to salary, for example, as compared with that that you mentioned--you mentioned some kind of a figure, with respect to Solid State Electronics Co?

Mr. ADAMS. I think that the going rate of Trans-Texas then was $210 a month plus overtime.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald report on that reference?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that he did not, and that he became employed by the Texas State Book Depository on the 16th of October 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The incident to which you refer occurred the latter part of October or the first part of November, that is with Trans-Texas?

Mr. ADAMS. As best I recall it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to talk to Mr. Sayre--what is the telephone number over there?

Mr. ADAMS. It is Riverside 7-2071.

The unfortunate thing about it, as I said, about being a placement interviewer is that unless there is something outstanding about the individual or something appears in the record it is just another applicant.

Mr. JENNER. You interview a good many people every day, day after day, and unless something strikes you out of the ordinary with respect to a particular job applicant or unemployed person, that makes it stand out in your mind, you are unable to sort out or recall specifically?

Mr. ADAMS. Right. I could rattle off the names of half a dozen applicants who are ex-convicts, alcoholics, or either recovered from psychiatric treatment or who are presently undergoing psychiatric treatment, or when I look at their record I see consistent "No hire" or "Failed to accept employment," but these people will stick with me, but if I recall, Mr. Oswald had not been registered too long or, beginning with my contact--my contact with him renewed his relationship with our placement office. In other words, as I try to visualize his card, I don't see a whole card full of entries--just a few up at the top.

Mr. JENNER. There is one card for each job applicant?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; at least.

Mr. JENNER. And if he has been back and forth a couple, of times there might be more than one card?

Mr. ADAMS. If he was coded. For instance, suppose he said, "I have been a truck driver for 2 years." I will say, "Fine, you get an additional code for truck driving," which is a 7 code, and this card, we would either send with him to the industrial office for placing in their files, or we would send it--he might say, "I will accept labor work," and we would say, "Fine, we will send a card up to Forrest Avenue or to Irving," whichever is the closest to where he lives or to Dallas West.

Or, he might say, "I have a degree in Economics," and we would say, "Good, we will give you an "0" code and send it upstairs to the professional office." So, conceivably, depending on the individual, he could have a half a dozen cards.

In addition, if he had been job counseled, they would have a counseling record.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, the employment commission, the Texas Employment Commission, and presumably, the other 49 states, is not in position to do any checking on people. The only way we get any information, derogatory information, is either through the individual's disclosing it voluntarily, or through an employer saying, "I sent this man down for a truth verification test, and he busted it," and then we would say, "Would you mind telling us what the information was, so that we may not use this against the individual and try to find out what his problem is and see if we can't help him with it." He might say, "No; I don't care to do that," and then we would say, "Does it involve felony or is it a matter of personality, or what?" And they might say, "There is something odd about his personality," and we would say, "Thank you."

This is the only way we get any information and, of course, it sometimes backfires unfortunately. Employers will assume mistakenly that anybody we send is as pure as the driven snow, and they may or may not be.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think of anything else at this time that might be helpful to the Commission in this connection--what I am anxious to get is the history of this man at the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; I believe Mrs. Helen Cunningham counseled him. I believed she counseled Mr. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes. Mr. Sayre is also her boss.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can get both of them over here this afternoon and take their deposition.

Mr. ADAMS. It is my personal opinion that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald is more to be pitied than censored, because if she had only taken the kid to the psychiatrist when they asked her to--of course, this might still have happened, but then again it might not.

Mr. JENNER. And, of course, in a situation like this, Mr. Adams, there are all kinds of "ifs": if somebody had done this, if only this had been done.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, even the little contact that I had with him, I thought--was there something there I should have noticed and if I start letting this get on my back, I will start examining every applicant who comes in--he may be a potential fiend, "I'll have to watch you," and pretty soon I'll be talking to myself.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are always subject to the accusation of being a meddler. It is pretty hard to say just where the scope of your probing should go--a reasonable amount of probing should go and where you have to hold down the gate.

Mr. ADAMS. The first I knew about it was when it came out in the paper that he had been a claimant.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; for unemployment compensation?

Mr. ADAMS. Right, from this district or Fort Worth, I don't know which one exactly.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have an office over in Fort Worth?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an office similar to this one, that is, that aids persons to obtain employment?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; the State is divided into districts. The Dallas district is unique in that it encompasses only Dallas County. Out in West Texas, I guess, the districts encompass maybe 20 or 30 counties.

Mr. JENNER. But Fort Worth's district--who is the general manager there?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir. I have heard his name, but I can't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the telephone number?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I sure don't. Whenever we have dealings with them at my level it is simply paperwork. You send a notice to them that we have these jobs available and employers ask us to start signing out from Dallas to find--to try to find someone, we'll say, in a 50-mile radius, or in a 100-mile radius, as the case may be--it's all done by paper, you see. I'm sure Mr. Sayre would know the people to contact with them.

Whenever we do uncover any derogatory information, well, anything which leads us to believe that the applicant is not--does not appear to be the type of person that we should refer, we have no way--we are precluded from making any written comment. I would just say, "See Adams before it is turned over."

Mr. JENNER. And that means if an occasion arises to refer this man or he makes an inquiry subsequently, then anybody reading the card realizes that there might be something derogatory or at least something special, and they should come to you and talk to you about it?

Mr. ADAMS. That's right; for instance, an employer will report that he thinks an individual is a sex deviate or something of that sort. Now, in the naivete of the Texas Employment Commission, I have made an entry, "Employer reports that this individual appears to have undesirable traits of character," and they say, "Oh, you can't put that in."

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(At this point Counsel Jenner conversed by telephone to Mr. Sayre of the Texas Employment office.)

Mr. JENNER. He said he turned over those records to the district office and he is going to run them down for me this afternoon and call me back.

Mr. ADAMS. I remember reading the paper that on account of his having applied for unemployment compensation, he made a trip to Corpus and then to Mexico and came back--it was none of my business and I never did pursue it with the Commission, but if he had nothing to draw on, he would certainly have applied for his unemployment compensation and it would have been recorded, whether here, Corpus Christi, or Fort Worth or where--the Lord only knows--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. That's all that occurs to me, sir, and I appreciate your coming in and your help.

Mr. ADAMS. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you people think you are not more helpful, to use your expression, when, as a fact you are.

Mr. ADAMS. I hope so.

Mr. JENNER. It's hard to tell from your vantage point whether you are or aren't, but the fact you appear here and tell us what you know is always helpful. I appreciate it very much.

Mr. ADAMS. I know it is like the intelligence business in the service, you take all the little pieces and piece them together, and you make a picture.

Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition and to sign it, if you see fit, and you also have the right to waive that privilege if you wish.

Mr. ADAMS. I would like to see it and I will sign it.

Mr. JENNER. We will have it ready toward the end of this week or early next week, and if you will call the U.S. attorney, Barefoot Sanders, he will know whether it is ready for you to read and sign. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. ADAMS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DONALD E. BROOKS

The testimony of Donald E. Brooks was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. David W. Belin, Albert B. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, Mr. Brooks. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. BROOKS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Brooks, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission.

The Warren Commission was appointed pursuant to Joint Resolution 137, which authorizes the Commission to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, on November 22, 1963, and then President Johnson, pursuant to that resolution and Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and outlined its powers and duties and authorities.

We have a legal staff authorized by the Commission to come here, and other places in the nation, and make inquiry of persons who had some direct connection, or indirect, or whatnot, with the events, and also those who did, or might have had, some contact with one Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the performance of their official duties or otherwise, which we think might be relevant or pertinent to the inquiry we are making. It is my understanding that you had such a contact. Do you reside here in Dallas?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your address?

Mr. BROOKS. 2836 Dyer.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native Texan?

Mr. BROOKS. No; I was born in Wichita, Kans.

Mr. JENNER. You came here when?

Mr. BROOKS. When I was about 4 years old.

Mr. JENNER. But since, you have been a resident in and about Dallas?

Mr. BROOKS. I have been a resident of Dallas since 1935.

Mr. JENNER. You are a married man?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Have a family?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I have two children.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, profession, and with whom are you associated?

Mr. BROOKS. Associated with the Texas Employment Commission, and I am an employment counselor.

Mr. JENNER. Employment counselor?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you held that position?

Mr. BROOKS. About a year. It will be 2 years in July, actually, in this position.

Mr. JENNER. So you became one in July of 1962?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the Dallas office?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I have been in the Dallas office.

Mr. JENNER. Do you function in any particular division of the Dallas office of the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; counseling department in the industrial office.

Mr. JENNER. In the industrial office?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now there are counseling departments, are there not, and divisions or offices other than the industrial?

Mr. BROOKS. There are people assigned to be employment counselors in the other offices.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of that employment, did the occasion arise in which you met officially a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; he was referred to me by the placement division.

Mr. JENNER. Now give us the circumstances, first, so that someone reading the transcript will be able to comprehend the circumstances under which this young man was referred to you.

Mr. BROOKS. As I remember it, he was referred to me because he had shown reluctance to accept employment in the industrial field, and therefore, this is one of the reasons they send a man to the counseling division, and this is how he came to me.

Mr. JENNER. Came to your division?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then that the Texas Employment Commission--let's use a hypothetical now at the moment: Assume there has been an applicant for employment. There appear to be positions open in the industrial field. The applicant indicates some reluctance to accept, to seek, at least, employment in the industrial field, but mentions preference for some other field. The fact that there is a reference to you does not necessarily mean, does it, that the applicant is one who is inclined to "gold brick" and is not really looking for a job?

Mr. BROOKS. Nothing in conference like that.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what the industrial field is?

Mr. BROOKS. The industrial field, of course, is primarily jobs with factories, actually. That includes skilled and semiskilled jobs, and also in our industrial office, truck driving and service station work is also included in this field. But primarily it is an office where the factory employer calls in for factory laborers, whether they be skilled or unskilled.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now, yesterday Mr. Adams, Mr. Statman, and Mrs. Cunningham provided some records from the Texas Employment Commission, and I notice that on one of them appears your name, Don Brooks, and that is what is referred to generally as an applicant card.

Mr. BROOKS. E-13.

Mr. JENNER. E-13 (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), and that the other witnesses generally refer to that as an E-13 card?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please examine that E-13 card, particularly the inside face which bears your signature. By the way, does that bear your signature?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; that is my signature.

Mr. JENNER. It says interviewer. Where it says interviewer, there is a signature on the card opposite the word interviewer, and that signature in longhand is Don Brooks, and that is the witness' signature. There appears below that signature, the word "Cunningham." She was in yesterday. That is a fellow counselor, also?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; in the clerical and professional office.

Mr. JENNER. Professional and clerical?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you explain to us the coincidence of each of you having signed that form?

Mr. BROOKS. Probably because this card was transferred over to the other office, actually.

Mr. JENNER. From your office back over to Mrs. Cunningham?

Mr. BROOKS. And she signed below because--I wouldn't swear to this but evidently she made some more comments in here.

Mr. JENNER. When an interview is held, do you interviewers make notations on this card?

Mr. BROOKS. What sort of notations?

Mr. JENNER. The sort of notations that appear on the card now?

Mr. BROOKS. Sure. We give applicant's characteristics usually, and then if there is any special information, we put it in on condition that it might affect employment.

Mr. JENNER. Is any of that writing that appears above your signature yours?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I can't see any of my writing.

Mr. JENNER. Now examine--examining the bottom half of that application (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), is there any writing of yours on it?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I don't recognize any of my writing on this at all in this section, where we send them out on the job. This is where usually the placement interviewer sends them on.

Mr. JENNER. You are not a placement interviewer?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are a counselor. So that on the inside of the card when folded, there is nothing in your handwriting on that card other than your signature, is that correct?

Mr. BROOKS. That is all I see, sir. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you turn the exhibit over. Would that be the top portion when folded that you are now looking at?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is the face.

Mr. JENNER. Now on the face, which is the bottom half of the exhibit, is there any handwriting of yours?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I see some. Looks like up in the left corner: I see high school, 8 years in the area. Service dates also. Also a date over here, 10-9-62.

Mr. JENNER. 10-9-62?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What does that indicate?

Mr. BROOKS. That means that he was in on that date, October 9, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And that you interviewed him?

Mr. BROOKS. Me; yes.

Mr. JENNER. These notations that you have now identified, was that information he furnished you on that occasion?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is usually the primary interview. First day, actually.

Mr. JENNER. Now does this refresh your recollection as to what occurred after the interview of October 9, as to whether you had further contact with him, for example?

Mr. BROOKS. This evidently--I wouldn't want to swear to this.

Mr. JENNER. You aren't certain? Go ahead, but you say you aren't certain?

Mr. BROOKS. I know that he was referred to me, and that is all. I was the one that changed his occupation code.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. BROOKS. We assign an occupational code to our applicants, and these occupational codes refer to specific work, whether it is a trainee job or a semiskilled job or skilled job. And he had a previous code, I don't know what it is now, but this 1-X4.9.

Mr. JENNER. Now that is written in whose handwriting?

Mr. BROOKS. That is not my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That looks like Mrs. Cunningham's. I think I can tell you that is Mrs. Cunningham's writing. That was an assignment of code made by whom?

Mr. BROOKS. I don't recognize her number. It was made by someone else other than me, actually. I had thought I gave him a code number but that is not my handwriting there. I am not sure about what code, I know I put him in the other office, which was our clerical.

Mr. JENNER. After interviewing him you determined he should be classified in the clerical?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; because he was interested.

Mr. JENNER. And not classified in the industrial division?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this was because of interests, primarily?

Mr. JENNER. Whose interests, his?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; his interests.

Mr. JENNER. Did you determine his interests after you had examined him and your judgment as to where best he might be able to obtain employment, having in mind those interests?

Mr. BROOKS. Was not in the industrial office; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express an aversion to factory work?

Mr. BROOKS. I can't tell you the words, but I got this general impression, as far as I remember; yes, sir; and he did not want to do factory work. Of course, we try to place an individual where he wants--will be exposed to his job.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of who put on that same side of the folded card, the face, "Lee Oswald, 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex."?

Mr. BROOKS. Right here, this Lee Oswald is, as far as I can tell, my handwriting, his name. 2515 West Fifth Street is someone else's handwriting. Just like Irving, Tex. Blackburn 3-1628 is somebody else's handwriting. 433-54-3937.

Mr. JENNER. That is the social security number?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; as far as I can determine. This carbon makes it a little difficult. And the service date, and this where it says none, referring to driver's license. And car, no. Those two are my handwriting, I am sure.

Mr. JENNER. Could I stop you there. The word "none," opposite or to the left of the word, "license," before which there also appears a square, directing your attention to that, is that "none," in your handwriting?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What does that signify?

Mr. BROOKS. That he didn't have a driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. That he didn't have a driver's license?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a square that you make normally?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. This is of importance especially in the industrial office because a lot of times a person working in a factory office might be required to sub in as perhaps a driver of machinery, and we always ask--pay attention to this, not because of Texas, but because of commercial operator's license.

Mr. JENNER. Let me inquire of you a little further on that. Does your inquiry go beyond asking whether he has a driver's license? That is, do you go on and ask whether he is able to operate a motor vehicle?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. Well, not necessarily. I mean, if he doesn't have a driver's license, he is not supposed to be driving, actually.

Mr. JENNER. But he could get one the next day, couldn't he?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. Sometimes I have gone further and asked, are you able to drive a car. I have done this on occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of whether you did that on this occasion?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I might have and I might not have. I wouldn't want to swear that I did either one.

Mr. JENNER. But your entry does indicate for certain that he did not have a driver's license, and you made inquiry on that subject?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go on. Maybe there is something else that you have written there to stimulate me to ask you something.

Mr. BROOKS. We have not covered my handwriting. Unfortunately, my handwriting is pretty easy to see. I write big. Now this--I am on the back of the card now. Now this Leslie Welding Co. in Dallas, 4 months, 10-62, $1.25 an hour, sheet metal worker, mild ventilators, is in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Is that something he told you?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was this form E-13, made up in your office or made up in some other office?

Mr. BROOKS. The original must have been made up in my office. That is usually the procedure, actually.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you made inquiry of the Fort Worth office as to whether they had what you call this ATB?

Mr. BROOKS. This is something--oh, you mean, test records?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I didn't, I am sure of this. The other office, Mrs. Cunningham, might have, but I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a Mrs. Louise Latham?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. She works for the commission. She works in C&S. I am not too familiar. I believe she is a placement interviewer.

Mr. JENNER. I notice on the bottom below your signature the last two lines appear the initials RLA. Is that probably Mr. Adams, the RLA?

Mr. BROOKS. It might be and might not be. I am not too familiar with the person. I know who is over there.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about this young man?

Mr. BROOKS. No; I wouldn't want to say. The only thing I recall vaguely now--at the time when I was asked, I was surprised that I had taken his application. I had not remembered it at the time, actually. I had vaguely remembered the name Oswald, but then--when I saw about it, I remembered that vaguely he was somebody referred to me from the placement, actually, and he didn't want, evidently did not want industrial work and he had an interest in clerical, and I gave him a clerical code, although the code number is not in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. It is the classification you gave him?

Mr. BROOKS. I think that is the one I gave him. I am not certain, but I think that is the one I gave him; yes. I mean, to say anything further, I would have to perhaps look in the E-41.

Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting are the entries appearing on the back of the card in the squares relating to summary of other work experience. Shoe salesman, 4 months, New Orleans, La. General office work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961.

Mr. BROOKS. This is my handwriting. Shoe salesman, 4 months, Louisiana, central office. General--excuse me, 1 year, New Orleans, 1961. That is my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Did he supply that information?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; probably on the initial interview.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall conversing with him or going back into his history when he was in the service or was married and where he had been?

Mr. BROOKS. I would not want to say if I did. I usually do. But, of course, I inquired evidently about the service or I have--I wouldn't have put the service date.

Mr. JENNER. Those service dates, where are they?

Mr. BROOKS. They are on the front of the card here; right here.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Under the heading "Entry on Active Service," October 23, 1956. "Released from Active Service," September 11, 1959.

But you do recall, or you wouldn't have made the entry "General office work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961"?

Mr. BROOKS. That is my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That was made in the usual regular course of your business and in having an interview with this man?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is right. I put those dates there.

Mr. JENNER. The back of the card, which is Exhibit E-13 (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), when we look at that address, that is, Lee Oswald, 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., that appears to have been written over something that had been erased first.

Mr. BROOKS. This is probably due to the fact that he probably moved.

Mr. JENNER. Moved?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. We have to keep, we try to keep up our address dates as current as possible, because if we don't, there was no way to get in contact with the applicant.

Mr. JENNER. I see another entry of 10-9-62, and then Mrs. Cunningham of 10-10-62, and then an entry or series of entries in October 1963.

Would I be correct in supposing that when you interviewed him on the 9th of October 1962, and put in whatever address he had at that time, and then later on in October 1963, when he was again interviewed, he had a new address, and the old address was erased and the new address put in?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is the way it usually happens.

Mr. JENNER. I will have to get the original to bring out that latent address. Mr. Brooks, you have been very helpful to us.

Mr. BROOKS. I wish I could remember more, actually.

Mr. JENNER. You have added to our fund of knowledge, so don't you be regretful. There are one or two things here that neither Mr. Statman nor Mr. Adams nor Mrs. Cunningham could enlighten us about and you have done so, so you have been helpful and I appreciate it.

I know you are anxious to be more helpful as we all are, but all we can do is get the basic facts.

Mr. BROOKS. I want to be certain if I say something. But I wish I could remember more about the applicant Oswald, himself, but it is hard to do, actually.

I was surprised actually at the time, of course, when they had told me I had taken his application. Actually, I didn't remember it at the time, but I thought about it.

And the Marine Corps probably brought in back a little, and like everyone else, I read the papers a lot.

But I can't remember anything specific about him, just general things.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Brooks, you have a right to read over your deposition if you so desire. And you have a right to sign it if you so desire. And you also have a right to waive that if you wish. It is your choice, one way or the other. If you desire to read it and sign it----

Mr. BROOKS. Did you want me to sign it?

Mr. JENNER. Well, as a matter of fact, it would be more convenient for us to have the reporter certify the accuracy in transcribing and just send it to Washington so we don't have to go to the trouble of calling you in and asking you to read it, but it is your option.

Mr. BROOKS. No; if you don't want me to, I won't.

Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon be relieved of it, but I don't want to press you on it.

Mr. BROOKS. To the best of my knowledge, that is all I remember. I could have been confused about some issues, but I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you waive the signing of the deposition?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything hereafter, there will be members of the legal staff here next week, and if they are not, call Barefoot Sanders and he will relay the information to us. Thanks for coming over. We appreciate it.

TESTIMONY OF IRVING STATMAN

The testimony of Irving Statman was taken at 4:20 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Statman, would you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that in the deposition you are about to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STATMAN. I do.

Mr. JENNER. I'm Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution to provide a body to investigate the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and pursuant to that legislation, the President, Lyndon B. Johnson, appointed the Commission under Executive Order 11130, and we of the staff are enjoined by the Commission and the Commission itself to inquire into all the circumstances, especially that we find pertinent data, regarding Lee Harvey Oswald, to investigate his life and a good many people, you included, either in an official capacity or friends with other people who touched his life in some fashion or other.

Your employment is what?

Mr. STATMAN. The assistant district director of the Dallas district of the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. JENNER. And just tell us generally what your duties are in that respect?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, we have the unemployment compensation of this and the placement office, and research and statistical branch, and an office in Garland and in Grand Prairie. They are separate entities and it is my duty to assist the district director in any functions there are, and to assist in any problems that there are in any of the offices.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any office of the Commission in Fort Worth?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes. We are the Dallas district. Now, also, he was registered in the Fort Worth district too.

Mr. JENNER. He was?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; but our connection with him was in actually three capacities--number one, as an applicant for a job, and as an applicant for a job, we had him counseled. In other words, if there are any reasons to believe that employment might be difficult for a person to obtain due to, maybe inexperience or due to change in occupation or some problem, we have a counseling setup that will counsel this person to the point where we feel we can help place him.

In other words, now, we are not equipped to give him psychological counseling or give him home therapy. Our job is placement counseling and we are trying to counsel them to the point where we can facilitate placing him onto a job and counseling duties then are through.

He was also referred to the counselor due to some apparent counseling needs, and he also filed a claim for unemployment insurance, so those are the three areas that he touched in the Dallas district.

Mr. JENNER. You learned of those three areas--his touching those areas from books, records and documents of the Commission?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, that's true. When this FBI man came in, and I can't think of his name--I've got his card, but I probably cleaned my nails with it, but anyway, he came in and asked for a copy of, or the actual documents, and we told him that we had a certain amount of documents here and there were others in Austin, due to that interstate claim situation, and so we gave him all of our records, and also he contacted an FBI agent in Austin, and our Austin State office gave him some records.

Now, in preparing these records, then, I saw the documents that we had on him. Now, what I have with me here is a copy of his application card.

Mr. JENNER. Could I describe that on the record first?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; I think it is an E-13, let me make sure what this number is, and--it is his application card.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, Mr. Statman has handed me a form entitled--what?

Mr. STATMAN. It's an E-13--it's an E-13 application.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have handed me two sheets.

Mr. STATMAN. Now, this represents the front.

Mr. JENNER. The top sheet I have is the front of the card and the second sheet is the inside or reverse side?

Mr. STATMAN. No; the inside--this is a folded affair and, let me me fold it for you properly. In other words, this is the way the card would look.

Mr. JENNER. It's a foldover card.

Mr. STATMAN. Right--like this. Now, this is an exact replica.

Mr. JENNER. It is letter size when opened fully, and it is folded in half.

The bottom of the top sheet reads, "Application card E-13" (1261) and for purposes of identification of the record what would be the back of the card when folded, but which is the top of the sheet as I hold it in my hand, it reads, "Describe your longest and most important jobs, including Military Service, beginning with your most recent job."

The second sheet which would form the reverse side of the card, portions of which I have read and which in turn would be the inside of the card when folded, has no form number on it, but it reads at the top, "Do not write below this line," and then in the next line in printing. "Conditions affecting employment," in the left-hand side, and "Handicap description," on the right-hand side.

Mr. STATMAN. Do you want me to interpret on that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. [The Exhibit is Cunningham Exhibit No. 1.] Now, this card--I will turn it now back to the front or top of the folded card. Will you state for the record what this is and does it relate to Lee Oswald, first?

Mr. STATMAN. This is his application card.

Mr. JENNER. Now, folding it in half, so that I understand it, as folded in half--what now is facing us with the form number at the bottom, would be top of the folded card. [The original card, of which Cunningham Exhibit No. 1 is a copy, is in evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 1-A.]

Mr. STATMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That means that Lee Oswald had a contact with the Texas Employment Commission and this is a record made.

Mr. STATMAN. On 10-9-62. This card indicates that he came in.

Mr. JENNER. That he came in on the 9th of October 1962?

Mr. STATMAN. That was his first contact with us.

Mr. JENNER. And what is done, then, in the normal course of this sort of thing, when an applicant comes in for the first time?

Mr. STATMAN. The first is--this card is filled out, and the number one thing is to get the pertinent facts, and do you want me to give what we have on him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. STATMAN. We have his name and his address.

Mr. JENNER. And what address is that?

Mr. STATMAN. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and a telephone number that indicates an Irving number--BL-3-1628, social security number was given--433-54-3937. Now, under this is his military service to ascertain if he is a veteran, because veterans get preference. In other words, I don't know if you need to know that, but that pink card indicates a veteran, and by law we are to give veterans preference, and the information here is to again ascertain if he is to get veterans preference. In this he listed the entry of his service date--10-23-56, and he was released from active service 9-11-59.

Then, underneath--another category, "If needed for work, do you have--" and it indicates "License, trucks, uniforms, car, tools," and he stated that he had none of these. In other words, some companies before they will hire you, like a mechanic has to have his own tools and some don't.

Mr. JENNER. He answered he had none of those; is that correct?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes--none. Now, he gave his educational background--do you want to go into that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. STATMAN. He stated that he went to Arlington Heights, Fort Worth, 2 years, 5/56 and in that----

Mr. JENNER. What is 5/56?

Mr. STATMAN. Apparently, that is when he left school--I don't know--I'm guessing at that.

Mr. JENNER. But that card does indicate that he told the interviewing official of the Commission that he attended Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth for 2 years, terminating in May 1956.

Mr. STATMAN. I think you can figure out, if that would be the start--let me see--in 1956, how old would he have been--he would have been 17 years old, so it seems more plausible that he left in 1956 than he started, wouldn't it to you?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. STATMAN. All right. He indicated courses that he took--2 years English, 1 year general math, 1 year algebra, 1 year general science.

Now, he indicates he has gotten a high school equivalency. That could have been obtained either through taking a G.E.D.----

Mr. JENNER. What is that?

Mr. STATMAN. General education--something--anyway, you can take a test here and they will give you what is know as a high school equivalency, or he might have obtained that in the Army or in the Marine Corps, but this is tantamount to having a high school education without completing the 4 years.

Mr. JENNER. But indicating he did not complete 4 years?

Mr. STATMAN. Not 4 years formal education. He is, as the name indicates, it is an equivalent--it's a certification that the man has an equivalency of a high school education.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. STATMAN. Then, he had 2-1/2 months of electronic fundamentals, 2-1/2 months radar operator.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have some dates?

Mr. STATMAN. That's 1957--that was prior to when he was in the Marine Corps. Now, I can't tell you whether those dates run concurrently or not.

He might have had a training first and then the radar operation next.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, in whose handwriting or hand printing is that document?

Mr. STATMAN. I can't be sure--some of these are self applicants. In other words, they take it themselves, and others are prepared by the interviewer. Now, this Don Brooks could tell you. Here is his signature.

Mr. JENNER. Here is whose signature?

Mr. STATMAN. Lee Harvey Oswald's. This is on a different document.

Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a minute.

Mr. STATMAN. I would guess that Don Brooks did this, because it is fairly consistent, I mean, you don't see a change of handwriting. Usually the applicant, if he is making the application will show a different handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Don Brooks still employed by the Commission?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes. Usually, if the applicant makes the application and the interviewer completes it, you can see a change in the handwritings and you don't here. Again, I am guessing that this was prepared by Don Brooks.

Now, up on the top is identifying information.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is up on top of the exhibit as folded in half?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes, adjacent to the identifying information--there is a block--marital status, widow, single, and divorced, and he has checked "Marital status." Underneath that is a block for number of dependents, and he has indicated that he has two dependents.

Mr. JENNER. That would indicate a wife and child?

Mr. STATMAN. Not necessarily--it would just indicate he has two dependents. I couldn't say he had a wife and child--knowing a little bit about him you could say that.

Birthday 10-15-39.

Mr. JENNER. Is that 10-15 or 10-18-39?

Mr. STATMAN. I'm sorry, you are right, it is 10-18-39. Height 5 feet 9 inches, weight, 150 pounds, education--he has listed high school with an asterisk, and the asterisk indicates he has a high school equivalent as opposed to 4 years formal education.

Now, in the block showing his test results, which refer to this general aptitude test battery and which I have a document on that, and if you want to wait, we will come to that later.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to go into it and we will hold that off.

Mr. STATMAN. That indicates--no, let's do go into this. In the general aptitude battery--you have certain cutoff scores, and these scores indicate a propensity or an aptitude in the certain occupational areas, which are totaled by numbers.

Now, the aptitudes that he has proficiency in or propensity in has been indicated in the test results.

Mr. JENNER. And those in turn you will discuss in connection with another document?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, you've got Helen Cunningham, who is a counselor and she can give you a lot better information on that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. STATMAN. Now, on the front in the date column--we do not always indicate when an individual is in, only when we see his card might become inactive, we will put it, so this doesn't necessarily mean that these are the only times he has been in, but this does indicate, as we previously stated, that he originally came in 10-9-62, he was in on 10-10-62, and he was in on 4-8-63, he was in on 4-12-63, he was in on 10-3-63. This R.I. indicates a reinterview. That means that he has been previously registered and we are reinterviewing him to bring his card up to date.

Mr. JENNER. And the R.I. appears to the left of the entry--October 8, 1963; correct?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir.

Now, there is just one more bit of information on this. Is your wife employed--and he indicated "no".

Now, we are turning this document on the back.

Mr. JENNER. That is--it would be the back when folded?

Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, this is the information on the back--this is the job history, the chronological job history, including military service, and we are starting chronologically backwards, with the latest job first.

On this is indicated that he worked for Leslie Welding Co., length of job--4 months; date ended--10/62; rate of pay, $1.25; the duties--he has sheet metal works, and I think it says, "Made ventilators and cut sheet metal."

Mr. JENNER. That's correct.

Mr. STATMAN. Okay. The next job chronologically was [reading] the William B. Rilly Co. Do you want that address?

Mr. JENNER. If you please.

Mr. STATMAN (reading). 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La. This Rilly is R-i-l-l-y (spelling), William B. Rilly, and this was typographical and that was the nature of the business; length of job--4 months; date ended--7/63; rate of pay--$1.50.

As far as job descriptions, he just said "Photography."

Now, the reason for leaving on both of these jobs was, "laid off."

Then, he gives the U.S. Marine Corps, radar--April--2 years--1959. That was his discharge.

Then, also, we have a summary of other work history. But this is a work history that might be pertinent, but he hasn't spent too much time on.

Let's go back up on the fold, under "identifying information," and there is an occupational title and a code. The occupational title listed, "Routine clerical work." The code is 1X49.

This "X" indicates that he has not had any experience, and this type of work is an entry work. In other words, it is work that he might be interested in and proficient in if he could get training in it. In other words, they deemed that he was not really qualified for anything, and when you have somebody without any apparent qualifications you try to determine some sort of entry job.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, I conclude--do I correctly--that from this, the interviewer concluded this man had no particular skills or qualifications.

Mr. STATMAN. No; this interviewer ascertained that this individual did not have a definitive type occupation, so he was sent to the counselor and after the counselor counseled and tested Oswald, then it was ascertained that this area of work would probably be the most conducive for him.

You see, that's why he was sent to the counselor, because the interviewer could not make a definitive description or a judgment on his work. That's where our counselor comes in.

Now, we are on the back. Under "miscellaneous" we had--shoe salesman, 4 months, New Orleans, La.; general office work--1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961.

That concludes the information on the back.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we turn to the inside.

Mr. STATMAN. Right. On the inside are his "conditions affecting employment?" That would be anything that in any way could, as the statement says, affect employment adversely or benignly. On this is first listed, "Bus transportation." It indicates that if a job required a car, he couldn't go.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I am interested in that--that is a normal inquiry made, is it, of persons seeking employment?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; because there are certain geographical areas in Dallas that are not accessible by bus transportation, so when we get an order in this area we know that the applicant has to have his own transportation or he wouldn't be readily available for the job.

Mr. JENNER. Does it mean not only that he does not have an automobile to drive, but that he is unable to drive one, even if one is furnished?

Mr. STATMAN. No.

Mr. JENNER. It means only that he does not have that type of transportation available?

Mr. STATMAN. No; this bus transportation means only that in the event that he would get a job, he would have to get to the job by bus transportation.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. STATMAN. There is no indication that he can't get a car at a later date?

Mr. JENNER. There is no indication by that in what I am interested, of whether he is able or not able to drive an automobile.

Mr. STATMAN. No; it just describes the motor transportation that he would have to employ in commuting to his work.

Now, the next remark is "Outstanding verbal and clerical work." Now, that was taken off of the G.A.T.B., which we will get into in a minute.

In other words, it indicated that he had a great aptitude for vocabulary and also for clerical type work. This is ascertained off of his tests.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. STATMAN. The next is "financial position necessitates immediate employment."

In other words, that would indicate that even though he might be qualified for a certain level of work, financially exigencies would force him into taking the first thing that came along.

Mr. JENNER. The important thing then was to get a job right away?

Mr. STATMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And after he has gotten it, he might be able to entertain getting some other job?

Mr. STATMAN. Right--in other words, I might be a civil engineer, but I've just come into town and I will wash dishes until I can get enough money to get my immediate needs taken care of so I can hunt for a job.

Underneath here, "Brother, junior executive, Acme Brick Co.; brother--Staff Sergeant, Air Force," and the initials of the interviewer that talked to him--it is 10-10-62 and it has H.P.C., which is Helen P. Cunningham.

Mr. JENNER. That is the lady I am about to interview?

Mr. STATMAN. That's right. Now, as I say, this document was prepared by two people, by Don Brooks, acting as the initial application taker, and by Helen Cunningham in her capacity as a counselor.

"Applicant's characteristics," this is just a word picture of the interviewer's or counselor's idea on this applicant. We use that in order to, when we are looking through to call in somebody for jobs, you can kind get an idea of what impression they have made on our personnel. Now, their impression was "well groomed and business suit"--something.

Mr. JENNER. I think it reads, "Well groomed and spoken, business suit, alert replies--expressed self extremely well."

Mr. STATMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, I don't know; it's either Don Brook's or Helen Cunningham's, so Helen can verify that. Now, the lower half of this inside card indicates any placement action we have taken with this person.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. STATMAN. Now, we referred him on 10/10 to Harrel Huntington--I can't read this.

Mr. JENNER. Let me give it a try--H-a-r-r-e-l [spelling] and H-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n [spelling].

Mr. STATMAN. You are better at that; you must have had hieroglyphics in school. The job was a messenger job.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it looks like they are architects--that Harrel and Harrington--it looks like Exchange "Exch"; is that correct?

Mr. STATMAN. That's probably where the job was--at Exchange Park, the job was messenger at $1.50 an hour, and no indication of what disposition was made. They should have posted probably "not hired" in there and then they called him in about a job for Dallas Transit as messenger and no referral was offered.

Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?

Mr. STATMAN. That means that after he got there, either the job was filled or they decided that maybe he wasn't qualified for it.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of that?

Mr. STATMAN. He was called in 10-26-62 by telephone message, so apparently they talked to him on the phone and decided not to refer him. Then a call-in card was sent to him--this was a message card by mail 5-3-63.

Mr. JENNER. That would be May 3, 1963?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes. Now, he didn't respond to this, so we issued an E-19, which inactivated his card. In other words, after 3 working days, if he doesn't respond, we deem this person not available. Then, a telephone message on 10-7-63 was sent and then on 10-8-63 he was referred to Solid State Electronics.

Mr. JENNER. Does it indicate the kind of job?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; as a sales clerk and it paid $350 a month and he was not hired. On 10-9-63 he was referred to Burton-Dixie as a clerk trainee at $1.25 an hour. He was not hired. On 10-15 he was called on the phone and referred direct on the same day to Trans-Texas as a cargo handler, and he did not report. In other words, he just didn't show up, and then they have a notation here that looks like--it says, "Working 10-16 R.L.A." In other words, Robert Adams in some manner of fashion----

Mr. JENNER. Ascertained that he was working?

Mr. STATMAN. Ascertained or received word that he was working. Now, our next document--let's take the easiest one--E-40(A) (961), which is the test record card, and that indicates the different types of tests we give.

Mr. JENNER. Is that on a 2-sided card?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It does not fold?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir; I'm sorry; it's like this.

Mr. JENNER. It is 2-sided but just one sheet?

Mr. STATMAN. Right, and then on the front is also the individual----

Mr. JENNER. It is half the size of a letter-size sheet of paper?

Mr. STATMAN. Right; it is the information on the individual aptitude profile.

Mr. JENNER. All right, may I identify it a little further for the record? It is marked as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2. [The original of Cunningham Exhibit No. 2 is in evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 2-A.]

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; start it this way [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. All right. Looking at the face of the card at the top there is a blank for "name," which is not filled in. At the bottom of the card, an aptitude score appears the figures sequentially: 109, 127, 99, 97, 117, 120, 97, 116, 127.

Mr. STATMAN. Those indicate his scores in his tests.

Mr. JENNER. On the face of the card appears in bold face caps "Individual aptitude profile."

Mr. STATMAN. Okay. Now, again, as I say, a complete battery of tests is given to make up this G.A.T.B., which stands for General Aptitude Test Batteries.

Now, certain parts of these tests when converted, give you scores in general intelligence, verbal, numbers, special conception, perception, clerical, motor coordination, finger dexterity, and manual dexterity.

Now, by a combination of some of these parts of tests, it will give you an occupational aptitude in certain areas, which are numbered and circled.

Now, these occupational aptitudes or proficiencies are circled, and these are used----

Mr. JENNER. The ones that are circled are what?

Mr. STATMAN. Are the ones he has some proficiency in. In other words, "2" means he had some writing ability. Now, I'm not that conversant with these cards.

Mr. JENNER. Will Mrs. Cunningham know that?

Mr. STATMAN. She will know and she can tell you, and also he has taken some other tests--a B-400 and a B-49.

Mr. JENNER. What are those?

Mr. STATMAN. I think they are clerical; you better ask her for sure. I'm fairly sure they are clerical. Now, that's all this is.

Mr. JENNER. What is that bottom line there that I read before?

Mr. STATMAN. Those are the scores he made in these different parts.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. STATMAN. In other words, you see, he made 109 in general intelligence, 127 in verbal; you remember she indicated he did good on verbal and you remember she did indicate that he did good on clerical.

Now, they have a cut-off sheet with certain numbers and you run this down, let's say, in order to be good in occupational pattern "2," you have to have 100 on your G, and 100 on your P, and 100 on your F, which he did.

Let's say, to be good--he missed five. Let's say you have to have a 100, 100, and 100. He only has 99 on this and 97 on this, so he wouldn't pass this pattern. So, actually, the different cut-off scores would indicate which patterns you pass, and the patterns you pass indicate an aptitude or propensity in certain occupational patterns.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Cunningham will be able to give us that?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; I have been away from this a while, but they go into automobile mechanics and maybe clerical, and the first one is literary, art, design, and so forth and so on. As you go down, it takes less proficiency or less mental acuity to pass a test.

Mr. JENNER. While I am thinking about it, who is in charge of the Fort Worth office. I can call on there tomorrow?

Mr. STATMAN. Krizan, he is the District Director, K-r-i-z-a-n [spelling]. That is his last name. Wayland is his first name. Now we might have the same thing in Fort Worth that we are doing here. I think we had some dealings with him in Fort Worth.

Now, along with this should be his counseling card, which would indicate the type of counseling and any responses. I can't find that; I don't know--I know the FBI man has it. We might not have made a picture of it or it might have gotten lost, but again, Helen remembers enough about it to give you the pertinent details of it. Ask her about the E-41 or the counseling card. All right, now, here is where it gets a little complicated.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we are going to a third document?

Mr. STATMAN. The third document is----

Mr. JENNER. Is that a card also?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; this a card.

Mr. JENNER. It is a folded card?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; it folds.

Mr. JENNER. It is a letter-size sheet. It is marked Cunningham Exhibit No. 3. Would you put the two sheets in the position they would be in with the card? [The original card, of which Cunningham Exhibit No. 3 is a copy, is in evidence as Cunningham Exhibit No. 3-A.]

Mr. STATMAN. I'm trying to. This isn't one of our normal documents, as I said, this is an interstate document. You know, there is a different address on the test-record card than on the application card and you may want to bring that out.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to bring that out; the address on the aptitude test card, I see, is 3519 Fairmount in Dallas.

Mr. STATMAN. Okay. I'm sorry; I should have mentioned that to you before.

Mr. JENNER. Opposite the word "comments" on the face of the card----

Mr. STATMAN. That's G.A.T.B. in Fort Worth, June 1962, so that indicates that he had had this complete G.A.T.B. given in Fort Worth in 1962, and maybe in order not to be redundant, they might have sent and gotten; yes, in fact, I know they did because you see--you don't have any indication here of the make-up, so these scores and patterns were obtained from the Fort Worth office.

Mr. JENNER. The date, October 10, 1962, appearing on the reverse of the card lettered "individual aptitude tests" would, I take it, in view of what you have now said, be the date on which the information was obtained from the Fort Worth office?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, no; the G.A.T.B. in Fort Worth, June 1962--that's when he took it.

Mr. JENNER. There is another date below that.

Mr. STATMAN. No; you see, all this dealings has been in 1963, hasn't it? This 1962 would probably indicate the Fort Worth action, wouldn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I was trying to attempt to do was bring it out.

Mr. STATMAN. Well, everything else we have done is in 1963, so we would have to ascertain here or assume that this 10-10-62 was the date that the G.A.T.B. was administered to him in Fort Worth. No; that couldn't be right either, because June wouldn't be 1962.

Mr. JENNER. He came to this country on June 12, 1962.

Mr. STATMAN. Well, maybe this is a mistake and it should have been 10-10-63. That would be more than likely the dates, wouldn't it?

Mr. JENNER. Possibly.

Mr. STATMAN. You see, everything else we have on the application that indicates 10-10-63, wouldn't it? In other words, we have had no dealings with him back in 1962, have we?

Mr. JENNER. Not in the Dallas office.

Mr. STATMAN. No, no; again, I guess you would have to postulate that that should be 10-10-63. In other words, on 10-10-63, they recorded this information from the Fort Worth records.

Mr. JENNER. Taking you back to the previous exhibit, I direct your attention to a date of 10-10-62, appearing----

Mr. STATMAN. No; you are right--okay--they contacted Fort Worth on 10-10-62, and received this information from them.

Mr. JENNER. This aptitude information from them?

Mr. STATMAN. Right. In other words, the test was not administered in the Dallas office, it was administered in Fort Worth. Have I got you confused, finally?

Mr. JENNER. No; you don't have me confused; you are doing splendidly. You are very helpful.

Mr. STATMAN. Now, this document [Cunningham Exhibit No. 3] is a claim document, B-3(a).

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, may I have this described a little more for the record?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, I want you to note that there is an original date on there indicating a New Orleans address and then a Dallas address.

Mr. JENNER. You are going to explain that--all I'm going to do at the moment is to identify the document for the record.

Mr. STATMAN. It is a B-3(a), Cunningham Exhibit No. 3.

Mr. JENNER. It is a document in typing opposite the printed designation--the name is "L. H. Oswald" and to the right of that in printing is "SS Number," which I take it is his social security number?

Mr. STATMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. It is 433-54-3937. In longhand above that line, I have just read, appears P.O. Box 30061.

Mr. STATMAN. All right--now, to go on with that and also in longhand is the Irving address, 2515 West Fifth, Irving.

Mr. JENNER. I see there are some strike-outs.

Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, the original document was typed giving L. H. Oswald, 757 France Street, New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. Is it French?

Mr. STATMAN. France--it looks like France.

Mr. JENNER. French, F-r-e-n-c-h [spelling].

Mr. STATMAN. It looks like "a" to me.

Mr. JENNER. F-r-a-n-c-e [spelling]. We'll let Mr. Davis look at it.

Mr. DAVIS. I think it is French, F-r-e-n-c-h [spelling]. It's French in the writing.

Mr. STATMAN. I'm talking about the typing now--the typing is "a."

Mr. DAVIS. Well, the typing is "a," but it looks like the writing is French.

Mr. STATMAN. I was just talking about the typing. I'm just discussing the typing with you now.

Mr. JENNER. Okay, it is 757 France Street in typing. Following that is French Street, stricken out, that is in longhand, and above the strike-out is 2515 West Fifth, in longhand, and below that is "Irving, Texas."

Mr. STATMAN. The reason I am making a differentiation between that, is that the typing of it was done in New Orleans because that is where this document was originally issued.

Mr. JENNER. Why was it originally issued in New Orleans?

Mr. STATMAN. Because he was in New Orleans filing an interstate claim against Texas.

Mr. JENNER. The interstate claim being a claim of an applicant who has been residing in a State other than Texas and he is making a claim against the State of Texas.

Mr. STATMAN. Well, it is a claim where a person has earned his wages in one State and is filing in another State against the State in which he has earned his wage credits. So, he has earned his wage credits in Texas. He was filing in New Orleans against the State of Texas. That's where this original document was made.

Mr. JENNER. Does it appear from this document as to when that claim was filed in New Orleans?

Mr. STATMAN. I am just trying to figure out something here--the initial claim in New Orleans was filed on 4-29-63.

Mr. JENNER. That's the 29th day of May, 1963, when he filed the claim in New Orleans?

Mr. STATMAN. Then, in Texas on 5-8-63 it was determined that he was entitled to $33.00 a week.

Mr. JENNER. On 5-8-63 or 6-8-63--he filed a claim May 29.

Mr. STATMAN. No; 4-29-63.

Mr. JENNER. Oh; 4-29-63--the date of filing the claim was April 29, 1963, and action was taken on that claim by the Texas Employment Commission on----

Mr. STATMAN. They made a monetary determination on it on 5-8-63.

Mr. JENNER. On what date?

Mr. STATMAN. On May 8, 1963. In other words, what they do is check his wage credits, and then ascertain how much weekly amount he is entitled to; that is, the weekly benefit amount, and how much total amounts he is entitled to.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the total?

Mr. STATMAN. The weekly benefit amount was $33 a week, a total of $369; in other words, he could draw for about 11 weeks. His BYE that's the Benefit Year Ends on 5-28-64. All that means is that the claim is in force to this date.

Mr. JENNER. He would receive that amount of money per week until that date?

Mr. STATMAN. No; until he received a total of $369, but he had that whole year to draw that money. Let's say he went to work for 6 months and let's say he drew 10 checks--that would be $330, and then he went to work for 6 months; well, between the 6 months and this 4-28-64, he would still be entitled to draw, if he were unemployed, $69 more.

Now, for some reason or other, he was filing in New Orleans--on these dates, and that is indicated by the I-B-2, that means he is filing an interstate correspondence. This information is sent to Texas and Texas posts it on its card. Do you want all these dates that he filed?

Mr. JENNER. Well, they are on the record.

Mr. STATMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But what I do want to know is--he filed claims when in New Orleans on the dates listed.

Mr. STATMAN. Up until this point.

Mr. JENNER. He filed those up to and including line 11, is that correct?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So, that would mean he filed claims on 11 separate occasions?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes; in New Orleans. That is indicated by the I-B-1 and I-B-2 symbols, indicating that that is an interstate claim. In other words, he is residing in one State and filing against another.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, for the record, those 11 claims--the first is on May 7, 1963, and the 11th is on September 17, 1963, am I correct?

Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, the last two claims, if you will notice----

Mr. JENNER. Those are on lines what?

Mr. STATMAN. Lines 13 and 14, so he filed through line 12.

Mr. JENNER. Through line 12 rather than through line 11?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And line 12, the date is September 24, 1963?

Mr. STATMAN. Now, on the last two dates that he filed a claim--10-3-63 and 10-10-63, the symbol changes to C.C., which indicates "Continued Claim," which in turn indicates that it is an intrastate claim. In other words, he is now filing in Texas against Texas.

Mr. JENNER. Now, if he had not exhausted his interstate claim, that is the amount due him, and he returned to Dallas----

Mr. STATMAN. He didn't exhaust his interstate claim--you know, once you set up a claim, that's all the money you get, regardless of which State you are in. He just happened to return to the State in which he had earned his wage credits, so his claim reverted from an interstate claim to an intrastate only due to geographical location, not due to any monetary consideration.

Mr. JENNER. Then, the explanation is--although the classifications changed from interstate to intrastate, it was the same claim.

Mr. STATMAN. Right--it was the same claim, it's just a matter of changing geographical locations.

Mr. JENNER. Of the claimant?

Mr. STATMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Back to the State of Texas?

Mr. STATMAN. Back to the State of Texas. You see, he could have started his claim in Texas and moved to New Orleans and that would have gone from an intrastate claim to an interstate claim. I had trouble with that FBI man on that.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, I mean, it can be confusing, because each State has their own set of regulations, and actually, we have an interstate unit in Austin that pays claims from people outside of Texas who are filing against Texas, and we also have interstate claims the other way. We have people who have earned their wage credits in New York and are living here in Dallas, so, when they file a claim, they are filing an interstate claim against New York. You see, what has happened, this originated--this interstate claim filed against Texas, and when he returned to Texas it became an intrastate.

Mr. JENNER. Does that cover that side of the card?

Mr. STATMAN. That covers everything. So, according to this, it would indicate that he filed, now, you notice he had no signatures here. We have these individuals, when they come to our office, sign their names once, because they sign their individual cards, and we want to compare their each weekly signature with a card here to make sure that the person who is signing this claim for unemployment insurance is the one that filed the card.

Mr. JENNER. Whose signature appears on the inside of the card when folded?

Mr. STATMAN. Right; you see, here we had not his signature because he was in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "here" you are referring to lines 1 through 12, isn't that correct?

Mr. STATMAN. 1 through 13. In other words, in the space for remarks, 1 through 13, his signature does not appear.

Mr. JENNER. If he were here in Texas when those claims were made, his signature would appear on each of those lines?

Mr. STATMAN. No; just one time.

Mr. JENNER. At the top--meaning line 1?

Mr. STATMAN. No; at different offices--some offices make them sign it every time he goes in. Again, it's redundant. Actually, all you want is a true signature to compare the continued claim card he signs each week, to make sure this individual's signature checks. Then, when he came in on 10-10-63 he signed this card in our office, to establish a signature for us to be able to check future documents with.

Mr. JENNER. All right, and to pay him any balance due on his claim, or had it been paid out by that time?

Mr. STATMAN. Well, he drew, actually, I can't tell you how much money he drew, because of a lot of times an individual might file for his unemployment and for some reason or another he might be ineligible so he won't get any money. These records do not indicate the amount of money he has collected. You will have to get that out of Austin--the chief of the insurance claims.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis is an expert at that and anyhow it is his home town. Is that right, Mr. Davis?

Mr. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. STATMAN. In other words, I could go in and file for my unemployment and they might have phoned me for a job Wednesday and I said, "My wife is working and I have got to stay here with my kids," and I wasn't able and available for work that week. So, even though I filed for a claim that week, I would be ineligible, so just the mere signing of these cards would not indicate the payment to an individual.

Mr. JENNER. You have been extremely helpful.

Mr. STATMAN. I hope so. I hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't confuse us at all.

Mr. STATMAN. Now, do you want to keep all of those records?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; very much so. I offer the three documents in evidence as Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, and 3, respectively. [The original copies of the cards marked Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, and 3 are in evidence as Cunningham Exhibits Nos. 1-A, 2-A, and 3-A.]

Mr. STATMAN. Okay, I guess that's all right--I don't know. Actually, our records are supposed to be confidential and we are supposed to have a court order before we release them, but I will just leave them with you and if I get in trouble I'll come to see you.

Mr. JENNER. If you get in any trouble about them, we will see that they are returned and we will make copies for you, but, of course, you can see they are hard to duplicate.

Mr. STATMAN. Are you going to be in town for a few days?

Mr. JENNER. I'll be in town tomorrow and I'll be back next week. There will be members of the legal staff here all the time.

Mr. STATMAN. Fine. All right, I'm just going to leave these with you. If something comes up I might have to solicit your aid.

Mr. JENNER. You've got a certified record of the fact you left them here.

Mr. STATMAN. No; I don't mean that. I might should not have released these to you without authorization from Austin, but if that comes up, you look like a pretty good lawyer and you might be able to bring us out of it.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; if you get locked up, we will spring you out.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis is from the Texas attorney general's office.

Mr. STATMAN. I'm not trying to be negative about this, but you know, when you deal with the State, sometimes if you don't follow the protocol there is difficulty.

Mr. DAVIS. If you have any question on it I would be glad to talk with them and tell them that we have made a formal request of you to leave them with us.

Mr. STATMAN. All right, fine. Is that all?

Mr. JENNER. That's all. Thank you very much. If you want to read this over, you may.

Mr. STATMAN. No; that's all right.

Mr. JENNER. And you waive signature too?

Mr. STATMAN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much. You have been very helpful.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much.

Mr. STATMAN. All right, I'm glad I could help.

TESTIMONY OF TOMMY BARGAS

The testimony of Tommy Bargas was taken at 11:35 a.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, do you swear that in the deposition I am about to take of you that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. BARGAS. Tommy Bargas, B-a-r-g-a-s [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. And where do you live?

Mr. BARGAS. 301 East Drew, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, did you receive recently a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is the letter asking you if you would appear and permit your deposition to be taken, with which was enclosed copies of Executive Order 11130, creating the Commission, and of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the President to appoint and create the Commission, and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission for the questioning of witnesses by members of the staff of the Commission?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the counsel on the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis is here, who is a special assistant attorney general of the State of Texas, and is cooperating with us and we with him and the attorney general, in the investigation that the State of Texas is carrying on. Now, you appear voluntarily?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the Commission, as you know, from these papers enclosed is investigating the tragedy of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, and many people have had some contact with various circumstances and incidents involving persons who may or could have been involved in turn in that assassination, and we have information that you had some contact with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald, and we would like to inquire of you about that contact. You live in Fort Worth--how long have you resided in Fort Worth?

Mr. BARGAS. I have lived in Fort Worth all my life.

Mr. JENNER. All of your life?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native Texan?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And born and reared in Texas?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did you, during his lifetime, come to know a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARGAS. I only knew him when he went to work for Louv-R-Pak Weather Co.

Mr. JENNER. But you did have a contact--you came to know him?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. At some contact you came to know him, whatever the case might be?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you been employed by Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. I been employed with them ever since 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And does that include the year 1962?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By whom were you employed during the year prior thereto?

Mr. BARGAS. Louv-R-Pak.

Mr. JENNER. L-o-u-v-R-P-a-k [spelling]. I take it, then, that somewhere along the line a company known as Louv-R-Pak merged into or associated with Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you, as an employee of Louv-R-Pak then became automatically an employee of Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is Louv-R-Pak a division of the Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us, at least in general, what is the business of Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. Leslie Welding Co. manufactures louvers and ventilators for attics, houses--commercial and residential.

Mr. JENNER. What was the business of Louv-R-Pak?

Mr. BARGAS. Louv-R-Pak is the same line.

Mr. JENNER. It was the same line?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I use the present tense when I refer to Leslie Welding Co., that is, what is its business--was that that you have described its business in 1962?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And thereafter as well, to the present time?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me, if you will, your particular connection with first--Louv-R-Pak and then Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I was at Louv-R-Pak just a regular employee, and then in Leslie Welding, after it was purchased by Leslie Welding Co.--Louv-R-Pak was--then, after a short time I became foreman down there.

Mr. JENNER. Foreman in the Louv-R-Pak division of the Leslie Welding Co.?

Mr. BARGAS. Right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of work was under your supervision and direction as a foreman?

Mr. BARGAS. As a foreman it was total supervision of the plant. In other words--assign men to their jobs and see that they carried them out.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do any hiring of people?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And discharging of people?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that the making of these louvers involves welding and sheet metal work?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of work is that--is that forming, and cutting and stripping and punching?

Mr. BARGAS. Spot welding and resistance welding was all they use.

Mr. JENNER. Spot welding and resistance welding?

Mr. BARGAS. Resistance welding and spot welding is the same thing.

Mr. JENNER. Does the sheet metal come in size or do you have to form it in some fashion?

Mr. BARGAS. We have to form it in various different sizes to specifications called for.

Mr. JENNER. And then, the louvers are spot welded and placed--they are moved up and down in various directions, are they?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Does Leslie Welding Co. have any plants other than in Fort Worth?

Mr. BARGAS. It has one in Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. JENNER. Is its home office located here or in Atlanta, Ga.?

Mr. BARGAS. No, sir; it is located in Chicago.

Mr. JENNER. In Chicago proper or some suburb of Chicago?

Mr. BARGAS. In a suburb.

Mr. JENNER. Is that Melrose Park or Franklin Park?

Mr. BARGAS. Franklin Park.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been up there?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any production facilities there at Franklin Park?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That's near O'Hare Field?

Mr. BARGAS. It is near to O'Hare Field.

Mr. JENNER. And, near Mannheim Road--I think Mannheim Road bisects Franklin Park, doesn't it?

Mr. BARGAS. I'm not too familiar with it, but I did travel on Mannheim Road. I remember that, but I'm not too familiar with the area.

Mr. JENNER. Did someone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald ever work for Leslie Welding Co. here in Fort Worth?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. BARGAS. In what manner? In what respect?

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hire him, for example?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, he came down--we called in for men at the Texas employment office and they sent him down and naturally he was interviewed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do the calling in?

Mr. BARGAS. I don't do the calling in, no.

Mr. JENNER. You told somebody working for you or under your direction to call the Texas Employment Agency?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, the secretary called.

Mr. JENNER. At your direction, however?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you tell her you wanted in the way of an employee?

Mr. BARGAS. I wanted a suitable employee that we could train that had some sheet metal experience, that we could train--that was willing to learn, starting at a low grade.

Mr. JENNER. When was this?

Mr. BARGAS. I do not know exactly the date.

Mr. JENNER. I have a date in my notes of July 17, 1962, does that approximate it?

Mr. BARGAS. That's approximately right.

Mr. JENNER. It was in 1962?

Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was.

Mr. JENNER. And it was in July sometime?

Mr. BARGAS. Sometime in July.

Mr. JENNER. Along about the middle of July? Is that correct?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes; somewhere around in there.

Mr. JENNER. In response to this message that had been transmitted to the Texas State Employment Agency, somebody by the name of Lee Oswald came to your place of business, to the factory, and you had made it clear through your secretary, who called on your behalf, that you were seeking somebody who was going to start at the bottom, to be trained, that if he had some sheet metal experience that would be fine?

Mr. BARGAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But, whoever this employee or prospective employee would be, would start at a low rate and it would be contemplated that he would be trained?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Lee Oswald came on the scene--do you recall your meeting with him?

Mr. BARGAS. No--not very distinctly--no.

Mr. JENNER. Do you relatively frequently have occasion to seek new employees?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This was not out of the ordinary?

Mr. BARGAS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was just in the regular course of business?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And neither the nature of the employment, nor the man himself in either respect--was there anything unusual or particular about it?

Mr. BARGAS. No--none whatever.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that meeting, to the extent you can recall it.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, it's pretty hard because I meet so many people that's come in and out.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--it may be important to us, Mr. Bargas, that your recollection is exactly what it is, that this employment was just the usual, ordinary sort of thing and that he didn't impress you greatly--don't you be embarrassed at all--all we want to find out from you is what your personal recollection is and what you remember, that's all.

It may be just as important to us that you remember very little, because it was not extraordinary, as your remembering something particular about it. Give us what you now recall took place.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, the only thing that I remember taking place was him coming into the plant.

Mr. JENNER. And he came to see you--or he was directed to you?

Mr. BARGAS. He was directed to me, and he came in and I gave him an application to fill out and we talked and I gave him instructions of what I expected of the men when he came to be employed there.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us as best you can now recall that conversation--what you told him--what did you expect, what did you say to him that you expected?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I have three basic rules that I go by--one, is that I expect a man to be there on time and I expect him, when he punches in in the morning to be prepared to work, and if he is going to be absent for any reason at all, I expect him to call in in the morning before 10 o'clock which is one of our company rules, and then I went along stating what he would be doing, where he would be working----

Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us what you said to him, in substance.

Mr. BARGAS. What I said to him in substance probably was--I usually tell them, "You will be working in this department," and----

Mr. JENNER. Which department?

Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department.

Mr. JENNER. The turbine department?

Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department, and that's another ventilator which we make, and this ventilator requires a little cutting to do with the shears, and he told me that he had had sheet metal experience while he was in the service.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. BARGAS. And so----

Mr. JENNER. What kind of cutting--you say with the shears--is it a power-operated shears?

Mr. BARGAS. A power-operated shears.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. BARGAS. And then after that, I put him to work.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to stick to that beginning a little bit--do you recall what inquiries you made of him as to his immediate history, that is, did you inquire of him as to past positions, if any, he had held?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. When you talked with him, I take it from your answer that you did inquire of him as to what sheet metal work experience he had had, if any?

Mr. BARGAS. If any.

Mr. JENNER. And his response was--what did he say?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, he said he had had some when he was in the service and that's all, and he didn't give no full detail as to what he was doing or how he was doing it.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire?

Mr. BARGAS. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, at that stage of the game it was your impression or your thought, since this was to be a low hourly rated employee, that you would soon find out if he had any experience?

Mr. BARGAS. Right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you intended to train him in any event?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have any recollection of his appearance on that occasion, how he was attired with respect to cleanliness, did he have a suit coat on, a jacket, or a T-shirt, or if you have no recollection, then just say you don't?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was just an employment in the ordinary course of business that you do frequently?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And nothing with respect to this man impressed you or now stands out?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. At this initial interview?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him as to where he lived?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. As to whether he had a telephone or not?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he married--did he have a family?

Mr. BARGAS. The only thing--he was married but he never stated--he never said what nationality his wife was or anything like that. As a matter of fact, he never--we never communicated that much. In other words, we didn't talk--we didn't communicate between each other that much.

Once or twice I tried to talk with him, you know, we usually try to find out how the employees are getting along, whether they like their jobs they are working at and if not, then we try to place them in a different position, and I make them satisfactory and that way I feel that a man can put out more.

Mr. JENNER. That's right.

Mr. BARGAS. And so, I tried to talk to him once or twice and all I would get "yes", "no" and that was it, and as long as I gave him the job he went and done it as everybody else in the plant, so I didn't have no grudge on him or nothing at all. I assigned him a job and he done it and I was satisfied.

Mr. JENNER. He was a somewhat uncommunicative person?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But this did not interfere with his work?

Mr. BARGAS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, even though he was uncommunicative, he was doing his work and he wasn't causing any trouble, so as far as his personality was concerned, you let that pass?

Mr. BARGAS. It was satisfactory with me.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of an employee was he, or what is your impression and present recollection?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, as much as I can remember of the short time he was there, it was a very short time he was there--he was a good employee. I imagine if he pursued that trade, he might have come out to be a pretty good sheet metal man--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But at least that's your impression?

Mr. BARGAS. That's my impression.

Mr. JENNER. I take it he did not volunteer anything with respect to his past or his family or his current activities outside the plant?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What were his relations, if any, with respect to other employees?

Mr. BARGAS. None whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that that he kept to himself?

Mr. BARGAS. Totally.

Mr. JENNER. Totally--what about lunch times--employees usually get together at lunch time?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, everybody used to get together over there except himself. He would take his lunch and move over to the side there and eat his lunch by himself and he didn't talk to nobody about nothing, so nobody ever even messed with him, I mean as far as that's concerned.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to whether he was indifferent to his work, happy with his work--what impression do you have as to his reaction to his work?

Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing stands out?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether he ever sought to be particularly industrious or tried to impress you?

Mr. BARGAS. No; the only thing I can remember--he just done his job--that's all.

Mr. JENNER. He was prompt, was he, in the mornings?

Mr. BARGAS. As far as I can remember he was there every day.

Mr. JENNER. And he had a good attendance record, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of anybody employed at the plant with whom Oswald did or might have associated after work hours or on weekends?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you observed, during the days of employment, he kept pretty much to himself anyhow?

Mr. BARGAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything with respect to his temperament--was he quick tempered, was there any incident that occurred that would give you a basis for an opinion?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he work there, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there.

Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th 1962?

Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th?

Mr. BARGAS. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours.

Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time?

Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day?

Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing."

In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say.

Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said he was up there in Irving somewhere--I don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it. I never had seen him since then and the last time I heard of him was when his name sounded off on the radio.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you then?

Mr. BARGAS. I was there at the plant.

Mr. JENNER. This was in the afternoon of November 22d?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you heard his name broadcast on the radio?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that awakened your memory?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, it come to me--in other words--the name right there, it rang a bell--in other words, because I remember some of the names--in other words, when they say them, I can more or less remember them, and then I even said to myself, well, I wasn't too sure of it then, you know, because there are so many Oswalds, so when I got home that afternoon, I was watching the television and there they came with a flash picture of him and I remembered him.

Mr. JENNER. On the television?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the flash picture you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald who had been an employee under your supervision and direction?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes--he was the one that had been employed there.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized him?

Mr. BARGAS. I recognized him.

Mr. JENNER. And, did that excite you to look at other television showings to confirm your recollection that the man under arrest by the Dallas City Police was Lee Harvey Oswald, a former employee of Leslie Welding Company?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I followed the whole thing pretty well. I mean--it wasn't that I was interested in knowing whether I knew the man, because it didn't impress me very much of having known the man that done the deed that he did, but I did follow it pretty close and as I said, as I followed him more and more, I remembered him more and more.

Mr. JENNER. During the period of his employment, that was approximately a couple of months or a little more--more or less--did he evidence any disposition toward physical violence, quick temper, arguments with fellow employees, or anything of that nature?

Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, inclusive, and ask you to examine those photographs and tell me if the man depicted on those photographs, in your opinion, bears any resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARGAS. [Examining exhibits referred to.] None of them.

Mr. JENNER. He does not?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What about his skills, did he do a reasonably satisfactory job?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, I think that's about all the questions I have. I would like to ask you, however, this general question as to whether anything has occurred to you, any incident or anything else that has come to your mind that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You are privileged to read your deposition, if you wish to, and to sign it, if you wish to. It isn't required and you may waive it if you see fit--that is--forego it.

Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime during the week if you want to call in to Mr. Sanders' office, the United States Attorney's office, and come in and read it, you have a right to have a copy of your deposition if you wish to purchase one, and Miss Oliver will be quite willing to sell you one at whatever her rates are.

Do you have any preferences in this connection?

Mr. BARGAS. I would like to have one of those depositions--yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you call into Mr. Sanders and he will put you in touch with Miss Oliver and you can make arrangements with her for a copy, and I appreciate your coming in and regret any inconvenience to you, but you have been helpful to us.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I'm glad I have. As far as I know--I don't know--as much as I knew about the man, I don't think I can tell you enough--as much as I thought I knew the man. If I had known anything like that about the man, he would have never been employed there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, so say we all.

Mr. BARGAS. But it's just one of those things.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mr. BARGAS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. STOVALL

The testimony of Robert L. Stovall was taken at 3:30 p.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, would you please rise and be sworn. Do you swear in your testimony that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. You are Robert L. Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] S-t-o-v-a-l-l?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are president of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, 523 Browder, here in Dallas, is that right?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, my name is [spelling] J-e-n-n-e-r, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. You received from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, a letter in which he enclosed, three documents--Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission, Executive Order 11130 of President Johnson, creating the Commission, and then the Rules of Procedure of the Commission itself.

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily in an effort to assist the Commission in its work?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. We are investigating as you notice in those papers all the possible pertinent facts and circumstances surrounding that horrible event, to see if we can enlighten the citizenry of the country and at least get all of the facts recorded, and in the main, as a matter of fact, get rid of a lot of rumors that keep cropping up here and there, and since Lee Oswald was employed by your company, we would like to make some inquiries of your company, if we may.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas, Texas?

Mr. STOVALL. Dallas; yes.

Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. Forty-three.

Mr. JENNER. And is this your company--is it a corporation or a partnership?

Mr. STOVALL. It is a corporation.

Mr. JENNER. Are you the principal shareholder?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you organize the company?

Mr. STOVALL. No; this is the second generation of the company. The original founders disposed of their holdings about 3-1/2 years ago.

Mr. JENNER. Disposed of them to you and your family?

Mr. STOVALL. And several of our employees.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been with the company how long?

Mr. STOVALL. Twenty-five years.

Mr. JENNER. That has been, I gather then, considering your age--your entire business career has been spent with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, except while I was in the Navy and I worked summers while I was going to college.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you attend the university, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. I went to Texas Tech and SMU. I attended SMU at night and worked in the day.

Mr. JENNER. What does your company do?

Mr. STOVALL. We are in the typographic services. We serve advertising agencies, advertising departments, and the graphic arts industry as a middle supplier for type services. We also produce newspaper mats for duplication throughout the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any work for any federal agency?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?

Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not, but we do on occasion. We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of Defense as a single unit.

Mr. JENNER. Without disclosing any secrets in that connection or classifications, what is the nature of that work?

Mr. STOVALL. Generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and figures. We have no correlation of what they refer to.

Mr. JENNER. It's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land areas or what?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; and some foreign areas, too.

Mr. JENNER. That is, other than continental United States?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. Was any of this work done in the department or area to which Lee Oswald had access while he was employed by your company?

Mr. STOVALL. Not in the department at all. Whatever secret work we might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view this.

Mr. JENNER. So, anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate Federal agency?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work?

Mr. STOVALL. This is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that your company is at pains to see that no one other than those who are cleared have access to it?

Mr. STOVALL. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that was true while he was working for you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes. In fact, at such times as we have any secret work going, even at the point of being rude, we see that no one has access to any of this material. I won't say--rude--but we strictly enforce it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you make it pretty firm, which is right?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any lithography work?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any printing of advertisements, papers, newspapers, periodicals?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. You set type, of course?

Mr. STOVALL. We set type. The only printing we do is a proving process, and that should we do an ad, let's say some of the Savings Bond Committee and ship one hundred mats, we would also ship one hundred proofs.

Mr. JENNER. You pull off proofs but your presses are proof presses, and that's all?

Mr. STOVALL. Right; we have no printing presses in this regard.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you do a lot of camera work?

Mr. STOVALL. Considerable; yes.

Mr. JENNER. But it is commercial camera work?

Mr. STOVALL. Right; it isn't even photography. It is only the part of reducing and enlarging printed material that we set in our type shop. It has to be re-sized and we also make screen veloxes.

Mr. JENNER. Explain for the record what that is.

Mr. STOVALL. A velox is a photographic print that has been screened by a dot press to separate the tone values in order that a camera can shoot them in black and white or in any group of colors, but it breaks it down into minute units that a camera will recognize.

Mr. JENNER. That's like half tones for newspaper printing?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any plate work other than the mats?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is the term "microdot printing" or lithographing familiar to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Lithography is--microdot printing is not.

Mr. JENNER. And you don't do any work of that nature and character?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the preparation of or use of dot work as you have already described it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You personally have no familiarity with microdot reduction of some image?

Mr. STOVALL. No; we have no equipment and I have no experience in that. I am familiar with the microfilm as to the advantages of it from the standpoint of storage and so forth, but as to participating in any microfilming operation, we don't.

Mr. JENNER. Or any microdot in printing?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For example, taking a 24 by 24 printed sheet and microdot reducing it to less than the area of a postage stamp.

Mr. STOVALL. There are several specialty houses here and this is all done by Recordak and it is a specialty with them and they have the equipment.

Mr. JENNER. But you have none and you have never done it?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which Lee Harvey Oswald was employed by your company?

Mr. STOVALL. I know the circumstances only from the statement made by John Graef, the fellow you interviewed this morning. He made the interview himself. We were in the market for a trainee to learn this simple photoprint process. He has had a connection with the Employment Commission and the State Employment Commission for a quite a few years in that we use their services. That's what they are for.

Mr. JENNER. You personally had nothing to do with Oswald's initial employment?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr JENNER. That was Mr. Graef?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is the head of that department.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of his progress or lack of it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes--through their information.

Mr. JENNER. Through reports from Mr. Graef?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And he kept you advised from time to time?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of Oswald's progress or lack of it?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And were there any incidents that came to your attention with respect to Oswald's relations with other employees?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I personally know of--on occasion one or two fellows would mention that they didn't have any real liking for him because he was such an oddball, but as far as I'm concerned, I never spoke to the fellow.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him in and about the premises, however?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I have seen him in and about the premises.

Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise in which the subject of his conversation or his talking about Russia arose or was reported to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Only after he left our employ was any mention made of it.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. STOVALL. He sought employment at another company here in town, a printing company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of that company?

Mr. STOVALL. Padgett Printing Co.--Padgett Printing and Lithographing Co., and the superintendent over there called me and he gave us as a reference.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know the superintendent's name?

Mr. STOVALL. Ted Gangel.

Mr. JENNER. Would you spell it, please?

Mr. JENNER. G-a-n-g-e-l [spelling], or G-a-n-g-l--I won't be sure.

Mr. JENNER. They are here in Dallas?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes--he's their superintendent. He called me and asked me and I told him I did not know, but I would check, so I asked John Graef and they said this fellow was kind of an oddball, and he was kinda peculiar sometimes and that he had had some knowledge of the Russian language, which--this is all I knew, so I told Ted, I said, "Ted, I don't know, this guy may be a damn Communist. I can't tell you. If I was you, I wouldn't hire him." So, he didn't, but he did come out of the Marines and supposedly he had a discharge that was satisfactory but I did not ever see this discharge.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in connection with your inquiries at that time about his having had a Russian language newspaper around your place of employment?

Mr. STOVALL. One of the fellows mentioned that he thought he might have, but in further discussion he was unable to pinpoint whether he was positive of this or whether he just thought it was. This fellow Ofstein--I think he made mention of it, the fact that he thought he might have seen one.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he said not only did he see it, but that he read it. He had some command of the Russian language himself. He was a student at the Service Language School in Monterey, Calif., when he was in the service.

Mr. STOVALL. Actually, when I was talking to this fellow Padgett, I was really just shooting off my mouth, but it seemed the way it turned out, that maybe there was a little bit of founding to it.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that came to your attention about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. STOVALL. No; I really didn't know any particulars on it until this incident happened.

Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. No, previous to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did it ever come to your attention of Oswald having any contact with any of your employees subsequent to the termination of his employment?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. I have here Commission Exhibit 427, which purports to be the original of an employee identification questionnaire of your company, with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, and would you look at it, please?

Mr. STOVALL. (Examining instrument referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar in fact with what it purports to be?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; this is the employment card that we had on him.

Mr. JENNER. And that is part of your original books and records of your company, kept in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. STOVALL. Right--this was picked up by the Secret Service and somewhere I have a receipt from them, well, there is a negative--I destroyed the positive.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are showing me a receipt and if I could read backwards, I would be able to read this.

Mr. STOVALL. If you have a mirror, you can look at it and read it.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Stovall, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to tell me whose handwriting that is in the extreme upper right-hand corner of Exhibit 427?

Mr. STOVALL. That is one of the personnel--in our bookkeeping and payroll department, and I could not tell you who it would be, but it would be one of three people.

Mr. JENNER. But it is an entry by an employee of your company made in the usual and regular course of business, is it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it records the date of termination of Oswald's employment?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. The sixth day of April 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. He was given notice the latter part of March, and our company's procedure is to give a fellow a week or 10 days notice prior to the termination.

Mr. JENNER. Was his termination prospectively or otherwise discussed with you prior to it?

Mr. STOVALL. Oh, probably it was--I would not say for sure whether it was or wasn't. I'm pretty much of a dog around there when things don't go right I'm the one that has to do all the yelling, and if a guy doesn't produce, I say, "Let's do something," and from this basis I feel the responsibility to say that I probably had something to do with this termination, not as an individual, but only on his performance as far as the work standards were concerned.

Mr. JENNER. What was this man's skill to the extent that you recall, in these areas in which you sought to train him?

Mr. STOVALL. He had no skill. He had no training whatsoever. You see, we employed him only as a trainee and I think we probably started him at $1.25 or $1.35, or something like that, and automatically we give a youngster a 10- or 15-cent raise quarterly, but within 6 months, if they have shown no aptitude, we give up on them and have a parting of the ways.

Mr. JENNER. And that is what happened here?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; because we give them a raise doesn't mean that the person is competent, it means that it is just a system of employment we have when we start someone on minimum, or generally a 90-day basis, and we give them a nickel or dime, and then within a maximum of 6 months, if they have shown no aptitude, we just have to terminate them.

Mr. JENNER. That's in fairness to them as well as to your company?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You also turned over to the Secret Service the application for employment that Oswald made with Padgett Printing Co.?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes. I do not have that receipt with Padgett.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come to have that, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. The Secret Service on Saturday--I made contact with them--Mr. DePrato--this is his signature and I don't recall the other gentleman's name, and in our discussion, I mentioned the fact that I thought this fellow had sought employment with another company, but I didn't know what disposition had been made of it, and they asked would I call there, so while they were in my office I called, but there was no one there and I knew this fellow and I called his home and he is an astronomer as a hobby and he was giving a lecture to some students, so I made a contact with the person who was on the phone out here at the Astronomy Auditorium at the Fair, and he called me and I asked him could I get hold of this application for the Secret Service and he said "Yes," he would get it and bring it by, and in the meantime these fellows had gone somewhere else and I told them I would meet them Sunday in my office, so I did and gave it to them. The reason I had it--they asked me to secure it for them.

Mr. JENNER. And you did?

Mr. STOVALL. And I did.

Mr. JENNER. The expression "microdots" does that mean anything to you?

Mr. STOVALL. No; we have never gotten any microfilming processes whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, your able employee, Mr. Graef, has given me a good deal of detail and has been very helpful and likewise you have been. Is there anything that I have failed to bring out here because I don't know about it or haven't been stimulated to do so that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe so. There was such a short period of time this fellow worked for us and he was a constant source of irritation because of his lack of productive ability, that----

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please?

Mr. STOVALL. We would ask him to reduce a line to 4 inches in width, that happened to be 6, and he might make it 4-1/4 or 3-7/8, and this was a loss in labor and materials both, and it had to be redone.

Mr. JENNER. Did this occur with greater frequency than you thought--than your people thought was permissible, having in mind the progress which you would expect of him or a man in his position to have attained?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; that's true.

Mr. JENNER. What about his relations with others in the company--other employees--how did he get along, or did that come to your attention?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't think anyone liked him or disliked him either one. He was just one of those people you don't know. If you don't know a guy, you can't know if you don't like him. That's probably the main reason we don't like him. Someone made mention in one instance that he bumped them in a dark room, which is a walkway area, and if a guy's bent over a tray and somebody else is coming by--he will get bumped, and it depends on who is doing the bumping, whether you get upset about it or not.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it can be done without taking offense to one another?

Mr. STOVALL. There's nothing at all wrong in it. There's no pain at all in saying "Excuse me."

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and apparently he was not inclined to do that.

Mr. STOVALL. It seems that that's so--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had an impression as to whether he was an outgoing person or a reserved person--keeping to himself?

Mr. STOVALL. I think he must have been reserved, because the fellows who worked right with him, no one seems to have had any particular conversation with him. One guy invited him to go to church and he had such an unpleasant reception to it that that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. What incident was that--tell us about that.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, the fellow asked him what his religion was, and he asked him if he would like to go to church and I don't know what he said, but that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. He made it pretty clear he didn't want to go?

Mr. STOVALL. It seems that's the way it was.

Mr. JENNER. And he didn't want to be bothered by anyone?

Mr. STOVALL. He didn't want to discuss it either.

Mr. JENNER. All right; does anything else occur to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of--the fellow had a good record of being on the job, I mean, he didn't have any absenteeism.

Mr. JENNER. He was prompt and worked every day and had little in the way of absenteeism?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef said that he sought overtime employment; do you recall that?

Mr. STOVALL. Only by his statements that he made it known that he was available to work on Saturday and he simply had a wife and kid and needed the money and I'm sure that he did, as far as that goes, because of the rate of pay he was working, living in these times, it didn't go very far.

Mr. JENNER. Your overall impression is that he was an industrious person?

Mr. STOVALL. He was inefficient--I wouldn't say he was industrious--if he would have maybe applied himself at least--he was inept in this particular craft.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We appreciate this very much. Now, you have the right to read your deposition, and make any corrections in it you wish and to sign it.

Miss Oliver ought to have it ready sometime this week, if you wish to do that. You may obtain a copy if you wish by arrangement with her and she charges 35 cents a page.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, is it part of your procedure that I sign your copy?

Mr. JENNER. No; you may waive it.

Mr. STOVALL. I don't have any use for it.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have any use for it and you don't care to come back and read it for purposes of correction, at least your curiosity might bring you to read it sometime--other than that you have no desire to come back?

Mr. STOVALL. I suppose it is for the corporation--I should put it with our papers. That is my only reason for wanting it. That--the same as we are keeping these.

Mr. JENNER. You have two employees here--Mr. Graef and Mr. Ofstein--do you want her to write all three depositions or just your own?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, is the writing she does--is this the only reason it is for us?

Mr. JENNER. No; we have it written up for ourselves and that is why you can obtain a copy at 35 cents a page.

Mr. STOVALL. If there is some means of getting a copy of it--the only reason I was wanting it is for the record. I don't care anything about it otherwise--I suppose it might be of use. If this is out of order or anything, as far as I am concerned--that's all right.

Mr. JENNER. It's nothing out of order at all--all she does is for the small price of 35 cents a page is just a matter of preparing an extra copy, so, you go ahead and prepare a set, then, and I would suggest that you deliver it under seal to Mr. Stovall. Do you want all three or just your own?

Mr. STOVALL. If you don't mind I would just put the others in there, too.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I understand; some people under the circumstances you are in do obtain copies, so that they can keep them in the corporate records.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's from the standpoint of corporate records of all the interviews and questions and so forth that we have been through on this--we have nothing other than three receipts and somewhere down the line in the years to come I would like to have it.

Mr. JENNER. You will find along the line in these depositions that they have covered everything that has been covered before and some more. We are able to probe a little more than those boys. They knew what they were after but they didn't have all the information that we have now.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, the men whom I have been in contact with have been nothing but nice.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; the Secret Service men are always nice.

Mr. STOVALL. They are gentlemen of the first degree.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I can certify to that--they are very fine and very helpful, and greatly grieved over this as everybody else is.

That's all and thank you very much for coming.

Mr. STOVALL. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. GRAEF

The testimony of John G. Graef was taken at 9:20 a.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, please, Mr. Graef?

Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. GRAEF. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, our President, and I think Mr. Rankin of the Commission sent you, or you have received from Mr. Rankin, a letter together with copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, creating the Commission, authorizing its creation, and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing its power and also a copy of the procedural regulations adopted by the Commission with respect to the taking of testimony.

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you know from those documents, is appointed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and particularly any facts and circumstances respecting the involvement of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that tragic event, and seeks to gain information from those who had some touch with his life, and we understand you had some connection with him with respect to an early employment, in 1962, by Mr. Oswald, in your company--Jaggars, J-a-g-g-a-r-s [spelling], Chiles, C-h-i-l-e-s [spelling], Stovall, S-t-o-v-a-l-l [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Graef, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Our information is that Lee Oswald was an employee of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in October 1962; is that correct?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you lived at 522 Browder, B-r-o-w-d-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. GRAEF. No; that is the address of the firm--Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. You reside where?

Mr. GRAEF. At 7304 Turtle Creek.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. GRAEF. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been a resident here in Dallas for about how long?

Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family, I assume?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been employed or associated with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. GRAEF. About 10 or 11 years; perhaps a little longer.

Mr. JENNER. Since your earlier answer that Oswald was employed at one time in October 1962, by this company, do you have knowledge or reasonably direct information as to the circumstances leading up to his employment, and what kind of an employee he was?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you, in your own words, just tell us about it?

Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, as best you can, so I can get the whole story of the matter.

Mr. GRAEF. Fine. About that time--it was, I believe, October, I don't have any written information in front of me that I recall----

Mr. JENNER. This is 1962?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can.

In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her?

Mr. GRAEF. I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham.

Mr. JENNER. What your normal practice is in that respect?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, particularly what you did on this occasion?

Mr. GRAEF. Being the director of the photographic department for some time, on numerous occasions it has been necessary for me to call and ask the Texas Employment and other sources for help in the normal turnover of employees that come up in any business.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell me something about those normal sources, because we may wish to look to them and see if we can find anybody else who had any possible contact with this man?

Mr. GRAEF. Surely. I can't name other employment agencies, but I will say, private employment agencies who occasionally have called us and told us that they had someone they thought had ability along our line, but this hadn't been as successful to us as the Texas Employment Commission. They seem to have a bigger repertoire of personnel needing jobs.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a public agency?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. State or local?

Mr. GRAEF. State; it is a State agency.

Mr. JENNER. It is here in Dallas?

Mr. GRAEF. It is here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. The office you called?

Mr. GRAEF. The office I called--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I assume it has offices in other cities in Texas?

Mr. GRAEF. I believe so; so I called--but to reiterate--mainly our best source of employees has been the Texas Employment Commission. They have a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing with them--they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, I became familiar with one person.

Our particular photographic department is not one that we find experienced personnel readily, and the work we do is, I would say, quite different in various ways from ordinary photography, as most people know it. I will enlarge on that slightly by saying we do many, many things with letters. For example, we can take a straight line of type and we can curve it or bend it or twist it or put it in a circle, for example, and so, rather than just taking pictures of people as ordinary photographers do, this work which we perform for advertising agencies and artists in this area is a matter of training, learning first to use the equipment we have which takes some time, and then the differences in the material that we use.

For example, the characteristics of photographic paper, the characteristics of chemicals that we use, and it is only after learning and becoming familiar with the equipment and the materials that then you find out whether an employee will produce the work properly, on time, and well, and so, it is usually some time before an employee develops into or either becomes the kind of employee you want.

In other words, after this training period, and you have spent time with him teaching him the equipment and the material, perhaps at this late date, many months by now may have gone by--perhaps he can't--he isn't careful enough in the job--he begins producing, but perhaps we will say he doesn't work as hard as you would like, so quite often we spend a great deal of time teaching someone, only to find out after some months have passed that he isn't a desirable employee, but is just one of those things.

We must, of course, in order to find out if they will do the job, go through the process of teaching him the equipment and about the materials, so I've gone into this because it will help later on in explaining the termination of Lee Oswald with us, but because of these various facts that I have mentioned, I became familiar with one person in particular down at the employment office, the Texas Employment Commission--the agency.

I, of course, had never met this person, but through phone conversations I explained after many times what I needed, the type person I was looking for--perhaps with an artistic background, perhaps with photographic experience somewhere, in the Army or elsewhere, and I told her the various attributes that I thought a person should have in order to make a success of our work.

Mr. JENNER. Would you try to reconstruct this now--just assume you are on the telephone now.

Mr. GRAEF. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. And carry yourself back out there to a year and a half ago?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'll try to do that. So, I called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her name was Louise Latham.

Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Texas Employment Agency, do you know?

Mr. GRAEF. I don't know--I really don't know--a very charming person over the phone.

Mr. JENNER. And, had you put in this call, let's say--how long before she sent, if she did, Lee Harvey Oswald over to see you--when did you start out to seek this employee, is what I am getting at?

Mr. GRAEF. Let me refer to this employee questionnaire.

Mr. JENNER. Does that have an exhibit number on it?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes, No. 427.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 427.

Mr. GRAEF. Now, it says here he was employed October 12, 1962, so I would say probably 2 weeks prior to that time, roughly about the 1st of October was when I placed the call.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether anybody other than or in addition to Lee Oswald had been sent you before he came?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't remember the sequence--whether Lee was first or whether Lee was last. As I recall, there were about two or three--all of them young men, average young men--Lee Oswald was average.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have in your files--what do you call that that is marked "Commission Exhibit 427"?

Mr. GRAEF. I am holding in my hand this same Commission Exhibit No. 427, and it's an employee identification questionnaire of our firm Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have had a card, would it still be retained in your files for the other people you might have interviewed?

Mr. GRAEF. No. No--I wouldn't. Normally, when the Texas Employment Commission sends someone over for an interview, I meet them and we sit down, of course, and discuss their past history, employment history, and the various personal histories of that person. The Texas Employment Commission sends a card over from them, telling who the bearer is and it also has a space on it that says "Was this employee hired?", which you will mail back to them and "Not hired," and the reason why you didn't hire them, and in every case, as I recall, the people whom I did not hire, I would just mark it in the appropriate space and drop it in the mail and it is returned to them.

So, of these two or three young men who came to me after--at this period, about October 1, Lee was one of them and seemed to me to be the most serious and a shade--I'm searching for the right word--when I say "serious" and just a shade more determined, perhaps--he seemed like he had had a slight edge on the other one or two fellows that came there, and I thought--well----

Mr. JENNER. I take it that you personally did the interviewing of all of these?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Including Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. I had talked with this Mrs. Louise Latham, it's Mrs.--also--each time she would call. Of course, I would notify her that I could use another employee and perhaps 3 or 4 days would go by until she saw, knowing these various things that I needed--she would call me and say, "I believe I have a young man who looks like a pretty good prospect," and so I would say, "Thank you." And she would send him over.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now recited all of the things you indicated to her in connection with this particular employment or in employment need?

Mr. GRAEF. I----

Mr. JENNER. As to what you were looking for.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Right.

Mr. GRAEF. So, Lee came over and I met him in the outer office. He handed me the employment card from the Texas Employment Commission. This, as I remember, just has a name and address and who sent him, and then was he hired or was he not hired.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall how he looked--how he was attired, for example, on that occasion--that's a pretty big order?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes--my memory fails me a little here, but it seems to me he wore a suit, a dark gray suit, modestly dressed and he was very businesslike and likeable.

Mr. JENNER. You say your recollection doesn't serve you well as to his attire on this particular occasion?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. It could be that he did not have a suit--gray? A collar, or otherwise?

Mr. GRAEF. It could have been, yes, but that's just an impression that hits my mind, but I could very easily be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. Could he have had a white T-shirt and one of these lightweight zipper jackets on?

Mr. GRAEF. No--no, definitely not.

Mr. JENNER. Definitely not?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection that he had a suit coat on?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes, his appearance was as most young men would appear in applying for a job--tend to look nice and he made a nice appearance.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. GRAEF. So, he came in----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he have a tie?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He did have a tie?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'm pretty certain he had a tie.

Mr. JENNER. He gave you a reasonably fair impression?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. At first blush?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--he came in and I met him in the outer office, and we sat down in the outer office.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you had never seen this man before?

Mr. GRAEF. No; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever heard of him before?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the course of that interview which triggered any thought in your mind that you might have, or could have heard about him before?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. As an individual?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. He remained throughout a complete stranger except to the extent of your questioning, which elicited some knowledge of him?

Mr. GRAEF. That's right. He was at that time a complete stranger. I had never seen him before or heard of him before. He was just another applicant for a job, is what it amounted to.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. GRAEF. So, we sat down and he gave me the card and he told me his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and we went through the normal job interview that we give most young men. I know--I don't, of course, remember--because of the time it has been, the exact extent of our whole conversation, but I do remember various phases of it.

Mr. JENNER. Reconstruct it to the extent that you can and avoid to the extent you can assumption--that something must have happened and finally give us, to the best of your ability, what you do recall, even though you don't recall it on the button, so to speak.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, certain parts of it I remember almost word for word, and then, of course, other, I think less important parts, I have forgotten completely. I do remember that--I believe that Mrs. Latham in the Texas Employment Agency--at the time that she called me, she said that he had recently been discharged from the Marines.

When he came in, I found this--that I was just slightly embarrassed that I had forgotten it, and among the other duties, of course--these things will happen, and when he sat down and introduced himself as Lee Harvey Oswald, I asked him where his last position was, and he said, "The Marines," and I recovered slightly, remembering that I had already been told this and, to cover up my embarrassment slightly, I laughed and I said, "Oh, yes."

I said, "Honorably discharged, of course," as a joke, and he said, "Oh, yes," and we went on with other facts of the interview. I remember him--I don't believe he gave me an address. I think he said it was just temporary where he was staying, or something to that effect. I also believe at the time he told me he had a wife and a child or a child coming. I don't remember exactly about that, because I, of course--any employer is looking for someone dependable and a family man offers perhaps a little more dependability, needing a position, than a single person.

So, that I think is about--I think I did ask him where--when he mentioned the Marines, where he had served, and I believe he told me Korea, and I didn't go into it any further. I felt reasonably sure because he had come through the Texas Employment Commission--I didn't even think of checking on his honorable discharge--honorable or dishonorable or questionable discharge. I somehow had just assumed being through a State agency, that they perhaps had a much larger file on him, that my going into various details would just be going over--plowing up ground again, so I just figured--I never even thought about checking into his discharge or when he had been discharged. I think he had been discharged sometime prior to this--I don't at the moment remember exactly when he got out of the Marines or was discharged, but the impression that was left with me and I suppose he told this to Mrs. Latham--was that it had been a very recent thing, because I recall that that's what she told me, and that's what he told me when he came to me--when I asked him.

Mr. JENNER. That it had been very recent?

Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes; it had been very recent, because when I asked him about his last employment he said, "The Marines," he had just gotten out of the Marines, and then I recovered, you know, and said, "Oh, yes," because Louise Latham had already told me this. At any rate, he seemed the applicant with the best chance of success that had been sent over.

Mr. JENNER. Would you go back a little bit?

Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. What inquiries did you make of him with respect to your qualifications for this position--his prior experience, if any?

Mr. GRAEF. None--none. I assumed that--now, he was sent over, if I remember right--I was also told by this Mrs. Latham, something about that he had perhaps some photographic experience in the Marines or there was some--there was some quality there that helped. And I believe it was that he had had a little bit of photograph experience in the Marines that might be helpful. In other words, he was a little familiar with the processing of film and so forth and, of course, this would add a little weight to his becoming a successful employee.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from your recital up to this moment that you are primarily interested at this point, having in mind the nature of the business, that this man would embrace ultimately what you were looking more for--let's say--general character, whether he seemed like a man who was going to be in this community a while?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Whether he was sincerely interested in obtaining employment that you expected to rely upon your teaching--I mean your company--under your supervision and direction--the teaching and training of this man for the position which you ultimately would seek to fill.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; very well put.

Mr. JENNER. And it might even have been that if this man had no photographic experience whatsoever, but seemed--well, let's say clean cut and eager and intelligent, just out of the Marines and seeking to obtain employment and settle down, that that might have been sufficient qualifications for you?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes--if, of course, there was no one with any better promise that came along.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. GRAEF. There have been several times when we have needed someone, when they would send two or three people over, and it was necessary for us to pick someone who had practically no experience in this work because you don't find anyone who is experienced in the type work we do. It is a very highly specialized trade.

The best you can hope to find is perhaps, and I'll tell you as I told this Mrs. Latham, the person that stands the best chance of success is perhaps someone who is industrious, willing to work, and not afraid of work, who perhaps has some artistic ability, because the area is opaquing of negatives with brushes and so forth, and possibly has some photographic experience, where they may know about paper and at least there will be some processes that they may have already learned or become familiar with and we won't have to begin from the very beginning.

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about photographic paper?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For example, some young man who has had an abiding interest in amateur photography, in developing his own film----

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct, and so you see he would become familiar with quite a few things in his hobby that he would know about when he came to work for us. We wouldn't have to start from the very beginning and say, "Now, this is film, and this is paper," and the difference between the two and start from the very beginning. So, to explain a little bit about why I didn't make any inquiries, I didn't frankly feel that any were necessary.

The fact that he had--that the employment agency had said--told me--that he had recently been discharged from the Marines, or had gotten out of the Marines, and the fact that he had backed up that statement immediately when he came over and said that he had been recently discharged from the Marines, and I asked him if he had been honorably discharged, more as a joke, and he said "Yes," he had. To me, what background was there to check into? Was I going to go through his commanding officer or his sergeant, for example?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it was a half truth--he had been honorably discharged and then dishonorably discharged.

Mr. GRAEF. I wish I had--but the whole thing, of course, seemed so on the level that I just hoped that he would be a person that could fill the job.

Mr. JENNER. Was this interview in the ordinary course of business?

Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And having in mind the particular position you desired to train the man for whom you were looking, and having in mind the work--the background of work of the Texas Employment Agency, you made, I take it, the inquiries you would normally make under the circumstances?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There was nothing extraordinary about this?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Out of the ordinary pattern?

Mr. GRAEF. No--he came in for this interview sometime in the morning, 10:30 or 11:00, and we perhaps talked for 15 minutes. Of course, I took down his name and whatever information I could get on a piece of paper, just for my own record, as I did with the other two or three boys that had come previously or after him, and finally there was no one else, and so then I had to make a decision, and, of course, I think I threw this piece of paper away because they were just personal notes that I had made about the interview, so that I could look back and remind myself who was who. So, I believe, in fact I am very certain that Lee called me back--I told him--at the time I interviewed him, I thought I knew that he had the best chance of the other fellows of doing the job, and usually I call them and would tell them that they are hired, but I think in this case that there was no phone and that when I asked him could I call him and let him know whether he had been hired or whether he had not been hired--he said, "No, there is no phone" where I could call him, and I said, "Well, I'll be making a decision perhaps tomorrow and if you would care to call, I can let you know then."

Mr. JENNER. Didn't that excite any wonder on your part that there was no telephone at which he could be reached?

Mr. GRAEF. No, not really. It's surprising how many of the young men are in transit or moving--in many, many cases the people that have applied for the job--it may just be circumstantial, but the people that have applied for work with me don't have phones. They may have a neighbor somewhere who they might give, but usually that's reluctant because the neighbor doesn't want to be bothered and many, many of them won't have phones, and many, many of them have very temporary addresses. I mean, it may be a room somewhere where they are residing for 2 or 3 or 4 days and they are in the process of finding some other place to live, so this didn't excite any curiosity at all on my part. The fact that he had again said he had been discharged recently from the Marines--it seemed entirely plausible that he was trying to find--he said he had a wife and either a baby--like I say, I don't remember whether the baby was coming or already here--I think she was here at that time. I think he said he had a wife and baby. I could easily see how he would be looking or could have been looking for a few weeks for better quarters and would not have a phone and would not have a permanent address. So, this didn't excite any particular curiosity on my part and I was intent, of course, on finding a dependable employee. That was my main concern, so, I at this interview felt that he had the best chance of making a go of this than the other applicants and so I told him, "I'll be deciding definitely in a day or two. Call me back," which he did and I said, "Okay, come on in to work."

Mr. JENNER. So that you were not looking for any special skill. If the gentleman whom you were interviewing had it, that would be a plus factor?

Mr. GRAEF. Correct--correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him the extent, if any, of his skills with respect to photography and his experience in that connection, if any?

Mr. GRAEF. I don't recall; no. I believe I may have--because this would be one of the normal things I would do in an interview. I think that he exhibited enough, as I recall--I think he exhibited enough knowledge that there again--about photography, that there was no curiosity raised on my part that he didn't know about it.

I'm almost certain that I generally just asked him one or two things about it and he answered them satisfactorily, or I would have, because that's the usual thing--I asked them about these things--artistic ability, any photographic experience, are you handy with your hands--they work with their hands a good deal, and all these things combined, would combine to make a topnotch man provided he worked.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. GRAEF. Provided he was industrious and wanted to do a good job. We'll say he wasn't lazy--at the same time--so the various qualities I'm looking for in our type of work, in our department, are pretty hard to find all of them in one man. So, Lee came to work for us--I don't remember the exact salary; but it was about, oh, somewhere, I think about $1.35 or $1.50 an hour; somewhere in there.

Mr. JENNER. Was that for a 40-hour week?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 427 again, would you identify the handwriting and block printing on this Exhibit 427, if you can?

There appears the word "terminated" with the date 4-6-63, which I assume is April 6, 1963?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that notation; do you know?

Mr. GRAEF. I don't know; I don't know. Now, this is my handwriting--the date employed--October 12, 1962. I am almost positive that this is Lee's block printing.

Mr. JENNER. That is the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"?

Mr. GRAEF. "Lee Harvey Oswald," and the various data on this card--the social security number and the phone number.

Mr. JENNER. In view of your testimony, I'd like to ask you about that. Now, there is a phone number there--is that LA-1-0692?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In view of what you said that he responded to your inquiry that he didn't have a phone number, how do you account for how that phone number got into the blocks there?

Mr. GRAEF. Into this box here--at the time that I interviewed him, it was probably--then, I--after this card was written, he may have been employed here at our place, oh, perhaps a week or two before this card was brought in to him to sign.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. GRAEF. In other words, I think because of the busy way the department runs, sometimes days will elapse before we get around to getting one of these to him and getting his social security number and so forth. In other words, he came to work and some days may have elapsed from the time, for example, that we had the interviews, there may have been some days passed before he actually came to work. Now, at this time, when I took this information down on my notes, my personal notes of the interview, there was no phone number, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. GRAEF. Now, at the time I didn't notice this at all, but at the time that this was written, of course--here the phone number is, so he obviously had a phone number at this time, but he didn't, as I remember, he didn't, because I didn't call him--I don't believe.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recognize the handwriting in which that phone number and the social security number are?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty sure that that is Lee's printing.

Mr. JENNER. Then, to the left under the heading "Name in full," and above that is Lee Harvey Oswald, you have testified to that, and the next line is "Present address."

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There appears immediately above those printed words "3519 Fairmount," and that is lined out. Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mr. GRAEF. The "3519 Fairmount," I am certain is Lee's also.

Mr. JENNER. And above that is 602 Elsbeth Street?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; now, I don't recognize that handwriting. Now, this card would ordinarily be kept in the front office; it would not be in my possession, and so for some reason this is probably one of the office personnel who wrote this and crossed that--Lee's writing--out and wrote in this at the top for some reason or other.

Mr. JENNER. Wrote in 602 Elsbeth Street?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the next line there appears the word "permanent home address," and above that is P.O. Box 2915.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know that handwriting?

Mr. GRAEF. I don't know that handwriting; I don't recognize that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall his having advised you that he had a post office box?

Mr. GRAEF. No--no.

Mr. JENNER. You were about to refer to a figure number, "Number of dependents."

There appears to have been a "2" written in there, and an overlay on top of that is a "3"?

Mr. GRAEF. The "3" is mine. Now, I don't know why--I can almost remember writing that "3" but whether he changed his mind and wanted it put "3"--that sometimes happens with income tax the way it is--that may have happened because he first was going to take two dependents and then decided to change it to a "3"--it was probably about the time that this was brought in. It looks like my "3" but I'm not sure about it. I've looked at it and it looks like a "3" that I might make over it, but I can't recall. I thought I might help a little there but I don't think I can. Whether he wrote down "2" on the number of dependents and then decided--when the card was in my possession, when I was going to turn it into the front office to make it "3", and then I changed it--that may have happened, but I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is obviously either a different handwriting or certainly a different instrument.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That's a different signature.

Mr. GRAEF. I was just comparing the pen I used to--used up here and this may be pencil. No, I believe it is a ballpoint pen.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that card is signed "Lee Harvey Oswald." Do you recall whether the card was signed in your presence?

Mr. GRAEF. No; it may not have been. In other words, generally, we hand this card to an employee and he fills out the whole card and then I would take it and turn it up to the front office, so I could have been back in the department working when he filled the whole thing out and signed it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 427 part of the books and records of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall kept in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And prepared in part by you and the remaining part under your general supervision and direction?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I would say. In other words, I turned the card over to the employee and asked him to fill it out with the information it has on the card. He returns it to me and I turn it into the front office.

Mr. JENNER. And this particular card, with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, to the best of your recollection was made and thereafter maintained among other books, files, and records and documents of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as they ordinarily are?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. There is nothing unusual, extraordinary or out of line?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. With respect to the manner in which and the circumstances under which Commission Exhibit 427 came into existence and was maintained?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, is this card now in the same condition it was as of the date of termination of employment of Lee Harvey Oswald, except for the pencil notation in the extreme bottom right hand portion of the card on its face and in which appeared in an encirclement, the letter "D" and the figure "11"?

Mr. GRAEF. To the best of my knowledge, it is. I haven't seen the card since I turned it into the office at the time that he was employed, so the handwriting that says, "Terminated," there, and that date--I haven't seen--I mean whether the card has been altered or not I don't know, because, of course, I didn't see it at any time after that date.

Mr. JENNER. You mean after the date terminated 4-6-63?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; after "terminated" was written there. I haven't actually seen the card since the time that he was employed, roughly, since he wrote the card out and handed it to me and I turned it into the front office. To the best of my recollection that's the last time I have seen that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall that this card, at least to the extent of the name, Lee Harvey Oswald, in block printing and your handwriting of the date October 12, 1962--that was filled out to that extent at least in your presence?

Mr. GRAEF. Mainly, yes. I mean, I may have been in the department and doing some other tasks, but he sat down and filled it out. I gave it to him and he sat down somewhere and filled it out and I may have been moving around somewhere. I didn't actually watch him write it out word for word and line for line. The reason this October 12 is in my handwriting--ordinarily the employee fills that out.

Mr. JENNER. That appears opposite the printed words, "Date Employed"?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; ordinarily, the employee will go ahead and fill that date in also, but he had forgotten to and this was probably filled out a few days after he was employed.

Mr. JENNER. But that is in your handwriting?

Mr. GRAEF. But that is in my handwriting. I vaguely recall that he had not filled that in and I said something, "I'll save you the trouble," and then I wrote that in.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 427, the employee identification questionnaire of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. which has now been identified.

How long have you been employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 11 or 12--I've almost forgotten--it seems it was either 1952 or 1953, I came with them.

Mr. JENNER. Is this an old Dallas firm?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By reputation, how long has it been around here?

Mr. GRAEF. I believe about since 1922.

Mr. JENNER. Does this company do any lithography?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general, apart from your particular interests and work in the company, what in general does the company do?

Mr. GRAEF. We set type. We have an enormous inventory of all kinds of type faces, all designs, for example, scripts--roman letters, sans serif faces--an enormous repertoire of styles from which advertising agencies and artists can choose to make up advertisements for headlines or body copy. This basically is our biggest function. We don't do any printing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you make mats?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it's a rather complete service. We can take an advertisement from the very beginning and actually carry it all the way through to the end, to the point where we mail the mats to the newspapers for insertion, but we don't do any printing as such, of any kind.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just tell me in a few words something about yourself?

Mr. GRAEF. Oh, golly--I was born in Chicago, Ill.

Mr. JENNER. So was I.

Mr. GRAEF. I went to Lane Tech.

Mr. JENNER. I went to Lindblom High School, and that's where I practiced law and have done for 30 years.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, I haven't been back there for quite some time. I left there about 1940, after graduating from high school, took commercial art at Lane Tech, and I went down to Tennessee and worked at the Kingsport Press designing book covers and also the Holston ordnance works, and during the very beginning of the war, this was the last--the Second World War--then I was drafted into the service and served as an airborne engineer for 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. In the Army?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I spent 2 years overseas and came back to Kingsport, Tenn., and then the wife and I decided to head west, and while I was away, she had written various chambers of commerce around the country and the Dallas Chamber of Commerce did the best job, so we decided to take a short vacation here and see if I could find work, which I did, and which we did and I did, and this was in 1946, so we have been here ever since.

Mr. JENNER. You were each native born Americans?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

And honorably discharged--period.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this man is employed--carry on.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he regular in his arrival at work?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were his work habits in that connection satisfactory?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I would say he was very punctual in his arrival to work. He began working under me and I began the process of teaching him how to use our equipment.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he worked directly with you or under you or under your supervision and direction?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--that's correct. He was with me a great part of the time. Of course, there are various times when I couldn't be with him, but for the better part of the first 3 or 4 months of his employment--he worked for us approximately 6 months.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you taught him and how you attempted to train him and in what, and give me also, when you are doing that, his skills and aptitudes, as you recall them at the beginning?

Mr. GRAEF. Well, as I have explained, the most we hope for in a person is that perhaps any past skills they have will help them in learning our work, but basically our work is so different that there is no experienced help, and everyone who comes into the department is automatically a trainee.

Mr. JENNER. And he fell into that category?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. All our cameras are different from the ordinary cameras you find in commercial printing shops or printing establishments.

Mr. JENNER. Are these portable cameras or fixed cameras?

Mr. GRAEF. No, fixed cameras--dark room cameras.

Mr. JENNER. When I used the expression "fixed," I had in my own mind that they would be these large-size cameras, fixed in the sense that they would be adjacent to a wall or a bench or a table.

Mr. GRAEF. Or the floor?

Mr. JENNER. Or the floor.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And be so heavy as not to be portable or so firmly secured as not to be removable?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate their size?

Mr. GRAEF. I would say approximately 8 feet long total length, with 6 or 7 feet of the front of the camera projecting through a wall, which on the outside of that wall have the exposure lights to light whatever you are going to shoot. Then, the back of the camera sticks through the wall in the darkroom and on the back of the camera, of course, you place your light-sensitive film and make your exposure this way.

Mr. JENNER. And do you use light-sensitive film plates?

Mr. GRAEF. No; ordinary commercial Litho film or Ortho film that are generally available from large companies.

Mr. JENNER. Indicate the size of the frames?

Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 20 by 24 inches. The difference in these cameras--they are commonly known as modification cameras. As I said previously, you could take a line of type and twist it or curve it or stretch it out of proportion. As they are different compared with ordinary cameras that are used in most places throughout the country in that they do not have any scales on them. Ordinarily you measure a piece of copy and you set the cameras on a certain number, and for example, the same size--if you wanted to make the same size shot, you would set your copy board on No. 1, and you would set your film carrier on No. 1, put your film in and make your exposure, and you get a same size shot, but our cameras have no scales and you have to find visually and manually your sizes, everything is flexible on the camera. The boards move----

Mr. JENNER. What boards?

Mr. GRAEF. The copy boards can twist. The film carrier can twist.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "twist" do you mean twist the image?

Mr. GRAEF. On its axis--actually twist on its axis.

Mr. JENNER. You mean "twist" as distinguished from "turn"?

Mr. GRAEF. Well, let me say "turn"--then. Can turn on its axis. The lens camera can be shifted up or down or to the right or left. There are various devices that are supplied with the camera, consisting of prisms through which you can make distortions, various other forms which can be used to make various complicated bends and waves in type or illustrations, or what have you.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the bends or waves--when you say bends or waves in type, you mean you do not bend or twist the copy itself--that is, the thing to be photographed, but by use of prisms and other distortion devices, the image implanted on the film is a twist or distortion of the copy or photograph?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; except we do both.

Mr. JENNER. You do straight photographing as well as distortion photography?

Mr. GRAEF. Well, many times, we will take the actual copy and twist it. Anything goes to get the final results, whatever has to be done, for example if we want to make a curved shot of a label, a flat two-dimensional label, a printed label, and we wanted to curve that label, we might take an empty tin can and paste that on the tin can and tip the tin can so that the lens looking at it would pickup the curve. We would tilt the can to such a degree that the lens in its position would pickup this curve of the label, and, of course, we would make an exposure, so anything goes in camera modification.

You start with the fundamentals of learning film and paper; the characteristics of them--we have many grades of paper, many contrasts of paper; we have several different varieties of film; the time developing these various papers--all of these have to be learned by an applicant before he can go on to beginning the camera, so it is a progression of a trade that takes time.

Mr. JENNER. Does this include color work?

Mr. GRAEF. No; all black and white.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, all black and white?

Mr. GRAEF. All black and white. We shoot color copy occasionally, but we don't do color work.

Mr. JENNER. That is, when I say color work, I intended two things--first, color film and secondly, colored ultimate product.

Mr. GRAEF. Colored film, no; we do not develop colored film and we don't shoot colored film. We might, in black and white, make a two-color a set of two-color negatives or something, for example, we might shoot part of a label and furnish a negative that would print the black on something and we might furnish an additional negative that would register with the first, that would print a color. For example, a colored border around the black copy and we would furnish these two negatives to a customer and he might print it in two colors, choosing whatever colors he wanted.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; he could use whatever ink he wished to employ on the mat?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Or, do you sometimes use lead slugs?

Mr. GRAEF. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, the customer would make a lead slug from the mat and then print it?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. Or, have a plate made, for example, in offset printing from our negatives--he could burn in plates and which would run two colors. He could burn his black plate and he could burn his red plate, for example.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I got you to digress a little bit from telling us your teaching of Mr. Oswald from his gradual development or undevelopment?

Mr. GRAEF. Of course, Oswald was not the first one that has come into our department, because his wasn't an unusual case. He was just another employee among many whom I have trained during these years--through these years.

Mr. JENNER. Were there others you were training at this time?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Of substantially like experience?

Mr. GRAEF. No. There were others in various stages of training, but none who was starting from the very beginning, we'll say, so, of course, even though he had had--he said he had had experience in photography, we started from the very beginning because the papers that you ordinarily use in amateur photography are somewhat different from the papers that we use in our work. The film that you would use in amateur photography is different than the film that we use in our work, so we start from the beginning in every case and this was the situation with Lee Oswald.

I began--we'll say for the first 3 or 4 days--he probably followed me around just to see what went on, learned how to make a print on the contact frame the way that our customers require, and became familiar with the routine of the department and little by little he was allowed to do various things to begin his training.

This period is rather indistinct because all this was going on--it isn't a case of being able to devote all of one's time to a training, at the same time that he was being trained, there was other work that had to be produced, so he didn't receive--the full benefit, shall I say, of all of my time. I would say rather, he received just the time that I could allow him, which I always wanted to give him more time but never seemed to find that time, so little by little, as I say, this period is very indistinct, but little by little he learned to handle the various papers and the films and then we began teaching him how to work the modification cameras beginning with straight shooting.

In other words--normal sizing of flax copy and also how to build jobs. Each man is more or less an integrated supply of the work. The normal thing in our department is for a man to pick up a job or jobs, go back and shoot them, develop them, print them, dry them, bring them back up, cut them out, and bring them back up to the front of the department.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "print them," you mean make prints from the negatives?

Mr. GRAEF. Make prints from the negatives on photographic paper, bring them back up to the front, reorganize them with their proper job tickets, and then take those finished jobs up to the front delivery desk. So, Lee began straight shooting--normal enlargement and reduction of straight copy.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean by straight copy--do you distinguish that from the--from distortion photographing?

Mr. GRAEF. Distortion work; yes. Now, the time that it took to bring him up to this point may have been 2 or 3 months, at any rate. It was at this time that we began, or he began to make a few mistakes on sizing. He would take a job back and it might be that his orders were to make it 4 inches wide and when the final print came up it might be 4-1/4 inches wide or 4-1/8 inches wide and this would have to be done over.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as much a difference as one-eighth of an inch on sizing as against an order for, let's say, exactly 4 inches or for one-eighth of an inch, as the case might be, would make that particular work unusable?

Mr. GRAEF. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. This has to be exactitude?

Mr. GRAEF. Right. This didn't mean that every job was wrong, but little by little as the days passed and we got into--we'll say--into the fourth and fifth month of his employment, more and more he was being relied upon to produce this exact work and there were too many times--it was his mistakes were above normal--he was making too many mistakes. Of course, we helped him as much as we could to do a better job.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression along about this area that the errors were ones of lack of skill, or do you have a recollection now of any attributing on your part of those errors to lack of interest, lack of industry, dissatisfaction with the position--would you give me your impression in this connection, please?

Mr. GRAEF. Well, my impression of his mistakes were somehow that he just couldn't manage to avoid them. It wasn't that he lacked industry or didn't try. Whenever he was asked to do a job over, he would do it willingly for me, with no--he would be more perturbed at himself that he had made an error, so I think he just couldn't--he somehow couldn't manage to handle work that was that exact. It wasn't that he wasn't trying or didn't work hard to do the job, but somehow he just couldn't make it, and now, like I said, it wasn't every job that this happened, but it was too frequent to allow. There were too many times that these things had to be made over and they added to the final reason for dismissing him.

Mr. JENNER. You carry on--I want this in your own words without prompting on my part.

Mr. GRAEF. Sure. Now, this was approximately the fourth month that he began to be given the responsibility for making these jobs, and it began to become evident then that he was making these mistakes. We kept, of course, trying to train him--now, by this time he was working under other people, and many times he was going through the processes of doing these jobs by himself and carrying the whole job through as I have outlined previously.

Mr. JENNER. This work didn't, I take it, require his creating any copies?

Mr. GRAEF. I beg your pardon?

Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare copy--I'm talking about you personally?

Mr. GRAEF. No; very, very seldom.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a department in which advertising copy is prepared?

Mr. GRAEF. If you mean by that--like pasting up advertisements?

Mr. JENNER. No; I mean preparing them.

Mr. GRAEF. Actually working on layouts and ideas to be used--creative ideas and things like that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; the body of copy.

Mr. GRAEF. No; we do for our own firm create small ads and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What I am getting at, he never reached the point which he had to do any creating of copy in the sense that I am talking about, which would then lead you to have some experience with him as to his use of grammar?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or his skills along those lines?

Mr. GRAEF. No; now, in the course of his carrying these jobs through and back in the darkroom, I began to hear vague rumors of friction between him and the other employees. The nature of our business is such that we are under pressure a good deal of the time to meet deadlines.

Mr. JENNER. Time pressures?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; in the interest of teamwork and getting a job out, we try to tend to overlook things like that.

Mr. JENNER. Things like what?

Mr. GRAEF. Flareups of temper or an ugly word or something like that that someone who may be under particular pressure at the time, and someone says the wrong thing--it might set them off a little bit, so I began to hear rumors of some of these things happening with Lee, but it has happened with other fellows also, but little by little, I mean other fellows who have had these flareups--I have had them myself--something will happen that will just be the straw that broke the camel's back, and you will spout off, you know, but this began happening--I began to hear rumors--I began, and of course, sometimes the boss is the last to know, and I began hearing that--or began noticing--that very few people liked him. He was very difficult to get along with. Other people that worked with him, with whom I had conversations and Lee's name came up or something came up about Lee, they wouldn't speak kindly toward him, to say the very least, and something might have happened between them and Lee that they hadn't mentioned it to anyone--some word that had been said in an unfriendly way, that they just overlooked or passed off, but it didn't leave a good impression with them from then on. Lee was not one to make friends. I never had any words with him at all. He never countered any order that I gave him, he always did what I told him to do the way I told him to do it. It might have been wrong sometimes, but he never was antagonistic.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, he might not have been able to carry out your directions, but he tried to do so?

Mr. GRAEF. That's so.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't mean your directions to him might have been wrong?

Mr. GRAEF. No; he was not belligerent to me. Anything that I told him to do, he did, or tried to do to the best of his ability.

Mr. JENNER. But you began having the impression, with the increased intensity, that he was not getting along with employees at his level?

Mr. GRAEF. Right. I was a witness to one of these flareups which I had, up to this time, taken not lightly, but passed it off as one of those things that happen in our department quite frequently, but I was quite close to one of Lee's flareups. I don't know who was responsible--whether it was Lee or one of the other workers, so at the time I couldn't actually reprimand anyone, so I didn't, but tried to pacify and laugh the whole thing off and make some remark that "Well, we are all under pressure. Let's get down and let's get on with the job." Something to that effect.

Then, the two people went their separate ways but it was quite a flareup, a sudden flareup of temper--a quick chip on the shoulder thing that I don't know--I have a hard time understanding people that lose their temper so quickly.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the impression you had of him?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; at that time--from that time on I did have that impression.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was this more an impression you gained from several incidents rather than one isolated incident?

Mr. GRAEF. No; of course, I have to take into account the evidence of all the other people--some of the things that they said and the way they didn't get along with him and then I saw the way he acted at this particular time, and I had never been particularly close enough to the boy so that I knew his personality. He was strictly a worker who was training and he did the job, or tried to do the job, and so I wasn't very close to his personality at all until this particular incident. It was only when he began--after, we'll say, he got out from under my wing as a trainer and began up to that time--he was following me around and was doing what I told him and there was very little chance for him to be alone with anyone and we didn't have any friction for about the first 2 or 3 months that he was employed, but he then began to be given the responsibility of doing these jobs himself.

Mr. JENNER. Himself and with others?

Mr. GRAEF. And with others.

Mr. JENNER. But not under your very immediate supervision?

Mr. GRAEF. Not under my immediate supervision; no.

Mr. JENNER. Did this call for him, then, to work and cooperate with others?

Mr. GRAEF. Right

Mr. JENNER. And this was really the first time----

Mr. GRAEF. Then, we'll say his personality began to come out. In the moving around the darkroom, the way you have to be congenial, cooperative in turning the light on and off as the various stages of the work progress, you may be developing film and someone may be coming out of one of our rooms and need the light on and there has to be a certain amount of give and take in these relationships and it began to become evident--some of the passages--passageways through our darkroom aren't particularly wide and everyone has learned to manage. You can't--you can pass one another, but not without each of you sort of squeezing by a little bit as you go, and it began to be evident that he wasn't congenial or cooperative in working with the rest of the people and moving about the darkroom and so forth.

Let me see, there was an incident about a Russian newspaper deal--I was working at my desk one time and I looked over and it was probably a slack time in our business, and I looked over and Lee was reading a newspaper, and I could see--it was from a distance of about 8 to 10 feet, I suppose, something like that, and it was just far enough away that I could see it was not a usual newspaper, and I asked him what he was reading, and he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "A what?" And he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "Let's see it, and he brought it over and I said something like "What is the action on this?" And he said, "I studied Russian in Korea." This fit in with his previous statement when we employed him about being in Korea, when he was a marine, and he said, "I like to keep up--keep in practice being able to read the Russian language and study it or something to that effect, and I said, "Well, Lee, I wouldn't bring anything like that down here again, because some people might not take kindly to your reading anything like that."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him the source of this newspaper?

Mr. GRAEF. No; no.

Mr. JENNER. Whether it was printed in Russia or whether he had subscribed to it?

Mr. GRAEF. It seems to me it was the "Crocodile." Now, it might not have been, but it just seems to me at the time that it was, but, of course, that too didn't seem particularly odd to me because a great many people in the country are studying that language these days and the fact that he had been a marine and been in Korea, according to the report, it seemed reasonably plausible that he would have learned that language, or studied it and to me, certainly, of course, I know how people are and that there might be some--he might be making trouble for himself by causing suspicion and so forth, by having that newspaper or at least running around with it, flaunting it, we'll say.

Mr. JENNER. When did this occur with respect to his period of employment--this incident?

Mr. GRAEF. I can't really say for sure, but it must have been about the fourth or fifth month that he was there.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a factor in his ultimate discharge?

Mr. GRAEF. Let me say that didn't help. Taken with the other--his personality, his not being able to do the job the way he should--when I say, "His personality," I mean the friction between the other employees. I didn't--it didn't actually weigh heavily, but it didn't do his case any good, let's put it that way. I didn't fire him specifically because he had the newspaper in his hand.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I put words in your mouth that he was discharged?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; he was discharged.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss this with him?

Mr. GRAEF. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that, please?

Mr. GRAEF. His record, as all this has brought out was--adding up to where he was not a desirable employee. His relationships with other employees had reached the point where no one that I know of was really friendly or liked him. His work as we progressed into the more intricate details of our production, didn't improve and it began to be evident after all the training that we had given up to this point that now that he was in a position where he should be able to produce jobs, actually he was not able to do so, and after a reasonable----

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any thought in your mind as to his ability ultimately to be able to do so?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I reached the opinion that he would not have--he would never be the kind of an employee that I was looking for, giving him every chance, you can make a mistake on one job or two jobs, and you always feel like you must--"Let's try it one more time," and this was my thought, because after all, there had been several months passed where we had brought him up to this point and I feel we gave him every chance or tried to give him every chance to make a success, and still he was falling down and making these mistakes--sizing errors--and camerawork.

When he had to make these things over, he would be mad at himself. He would go back and shoot it again, but it is obvious that he was taking twice as long when these things happened to produce one job because he was having to do the whole thing over again to get it right, that it couldn't be tolerated for much longer.

About this time, I think it was in April, we had a fluctuation in business--it dropped and I thought, "Well, this is the time to let Lee Harvey Oswald--to let him go," so I called him back into the darkroom one day and I said, "Lee, business is"----

Mr. JENNER. When you say this conversation took place in the darkroom, was the room dark?

Mr. GRAEF. There were dim red lights.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you call him back in the darkroom rather than some other place?

Mr. GRAEF. At the time it was the--I didn't want to embarrass the boy.

Mr. JENNER. This was a private talk?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Out of the presence of anyone other than yourself and Oswald?

Mr. GRAEF. Out of the presence of anyone else--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was one of the reasons for your calling him back there?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't have a private office. My desk is with the other people in the production of work, and I don't have any private facilities where I can talk to someone, and back in the corner of the darkroom, it is illuminated by red lights.

Mr. JENNER. Are these infrared lights? Is that what you mean?

Mr. GRAEF. No; they are just red neon lights that provide dim illumination, but at this particular spot in the darkroom, I can see when anyone is within 15 or 20 feet of me, and, of course, I could lower my voice and not embarrass him when I released him, so I said, "Lee, come on back, I would like to talk to you." So, we went back, and I said, "Lee, I think this is as good a time as any to cut it short." I said, "Business is pretty slow at this time, but the point is that you haven't been turning the work out like you should. There has been friction with other people," and so on.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say when you said that?

Mr. GRAEF. Nothing. And I said, "This is, I think, the best time to just make a break of it." I believe I gave him a few days, and I said, "Feel free, of course, to make any calls of the Texas Employment Commission where you came from originally," and I told him, "I think you tried to do the work, but I just don't think that you have the qualities for doing the work that we need."

And, there was no outburst on his part. He took this the whole time looking at the floor, I believe, and after I was through, he said, "Well, thank you." And he turned around and walked off.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion in your career to discharge other employees?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And recalling the reaction of other employees, could you tell us your present view or opinion as to your experience--comparing your experience with the discharge of Lee Harvey Oswald with the discharge of other employees--was it usual and normal?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I think it was just about the usual. He might have been perhaps a shade more quiet. There were no questions asked about why I thought he wasn't qualified.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was aware of it?

Mr. GRAEF. I think he was aware of it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. No outbursts of any kind?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything said about what might happen if he sought references in any future employment?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I told him--I volunteered the information. I said, "Lee, if there is another job that you find, I'll be glad to give you a recommendation, a good recommendation," because--I told him, "I think you have tried," and I think he had. It would have been, of course, with reservations--any new employer that had called me for a recommendation, I would have had to say something about his relations with other employees.

Mr. JENNER. And that would have been somewhat negative?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct; but he did try to become a worker. It wasn't that he wasn't industrious--he was not lazy. He, to the best of his ability, tried but the ability was not there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it then from your recital that his discharge was for the reasons you have given and not because of any past history that you discovered with respect to him?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. And, throughout all of this employment, you had no information with regard to his past history other than you have related to us?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes, yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map Service. We do a certain type of work for the Engineers, I believe, but I couldn't be sure about that.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in your department or under your supervision or direction?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention any scuttlebutt among employees as to any past history of his?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I think if it had, I would have in fact--I am very positive I would have investigated that.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of the reports to you, which you have detailed to me, include anything with regard to any political theories or arguments or positions that he took as with respect to other employees?

Mr. GRAEF. No; none. None that came to my attention. There was never any political conversations that I heard about him or between him, or that I heard him talking with the people or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have no more questions. I would like to put, however, the general question that I do put in all these depositions. Is there anything that might occur to you that I have not stimulated to ask you but that you think--any incident that occurred or any circumstance that you think might possibly be of help to the Commission in their investigation of this man and of the overall incident we are investigating?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I really don't think so. Of course, the whole thing is just a tragic, unbelievable thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. GRAEF. That you rub shoulders with someone who did such a thing is just fantastic.

Mr. JENNER. If he did it?

Mr. GRAEF. It's just unbelievable--it's still hard to believe that you were in such close contact with anyone that took part in the events.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything in my off-the-record discussion we have had, and there have been substantially none, that took place during that interlude that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. GRAEF. I might add this--I'll let you repeat that question in a moment.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. GRAEF. This thought occurred--I was trying to think a moment ago what I was going to do, because there was something that I wanted to make mention of for what it's worth, is that at this point during his employment with us, he was very anxious for overtime work.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the 4- or 5-month period you are talking about now?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's correct, which if I may assume, he needed the money. It was invariably Friday afternoon--and Saturday, of course, is an overtime day to us and quite frequently we run Saturday and Saturday work we do at time and a half, which comes into play, and in fact, invariably Friday afternoon he would volunteer and ask if we needed him the next day. Then, unfortunately, of course, as I have mentioned, his work didn't come up to the quality that we needed so it was very, very seldom that we ever brought him in unless we were in a real bad--had an urgent work that absolutely had to go, but he desperately wanted to be called in on Saturday for overtime work.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his ability to operate an automobile arose?

Mr. GRAEF. No; as far as I know, he never had one.

Mr. JENNER. And there was no occasion in his work when he might have been called upon to drive an automobile?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. So, you have no impression--I gather--as to whether he could or could not drive an automobile or how well he might do so?

Mr. GRAEF. No. The only impression that I have is that he rode the bus almost everywhere.

I know--I'm pretty sure he did not have a car and he used to ride the bus.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you to examine those and tell me if the man who is depicted in those photographs bears any similarity or likeness to the man you knew as Lee Harvey Oswald? You might spread them out and it would give you a better view.

Mr. GRAEF. Very slight; but to anyone who knew Lee, they would immediately say "No."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him attired in the fashion that the man shown on those photographs is attired?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I don't think I ever did. Now, toward the end of his employment, most of the time he used to wear a white T-shirt to work. I think he might have had a dark jacket over it.

Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket--lightweight?

Mr. GRAEF. Something perhaps--but it was rather dark, I think, but not like this.

Mr. JENNER. Is there in any discussion we have had possibly off the record which you regard as inconsistent with any testimony you have given here, and if so, what?

Mr. GRAEF. Like what, for example? Now, when you say "inconsistent with any testimony," what do you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, that you might have said off the record that you were uncertain as to whether--when you first interviewed him he was, in fact, with a suit coat with a shirt and tie, whereas, when I asked you on the record you were pretty firm about that sort of thing?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty firm. No, no; all of this testimony that I have given you is factual and true.

Mr. JENNER. There is nothing you have said on the record that is inconsistent with anything you have said off the record?

Mr. GRAEF. No--it hasn't been--anything that I have said has been an opinion or formulations--it has just been--it is just strictly as I remember it.

Mr. JENNER. And to your best recollection, I have brought everything that was said off the record that is pertinent here and have got it on the record.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, you are certainly welcome.

Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition, if you wish to, or you may waive it. You have that right, and you may waive it if you wish. The reporter will let you know one way or the other.

Mr. GRAEF. What is the machinations of getting a copy?

Mr. JENNER. When Miss Oliver has prepared a copy, you may call in and find out from Mr. Sanders and come down and read it, as you see fit and sign it.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or, you may waive that. If you wish a copy of your testimony, you may obtain by arrangement with Miss Oliver. She will furnish you one at whatever her usual prices are.

Mr. GRAEF. I think--I don't see any need for it--for signing it. There it is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, as these reports reached you from your employees, arousing your attention to the fact that some friction had arisen and was continuing as between him and other employees, what, if anything, did you do to acquaint yourself better with those circumstances and in that connection, tell us whether you talked with others, whether you talked with Lee--in general, just what did you do in that connection?

Mr. GRAEF. The rumors of these flareups, we'll say, I heard about them going back--we'll say, to some 3 months. He was employed with us for a total of 6 months. For about the first 3 months he was in training and it was only after this 3 months' period that he began to be in a close association with the other employees, so about this time, we'll say, the friction began between him and the other employees.

Now, several weeks went past--I'm sure--when these things came to pass and when I heard about them, and this flareup that I witnessed, and I don't know who was to blame, whether it was Lee or whether it was the other fellow. I happened to be on the other side of the darkroom at the time and the two people were both, as I recall, trying to develop film in the same pan, and one was getting in the way of the other one, and ordinarily there is no--we don't have any trouble about this. All the jobs are rush, and you just make allowances and move over a little bit and both of you get in there together.

This, I think, is what caused this particular thing, but Lee was quick to--he had a chip on his shoulder, and he made--who spoke first, I really don't recall, but somebody said something about, "How about moving over a little bit?" And the other fellow said, "What do you mean, I have been here first," and one thing led to another, but it was over just about as quickly as it began, so this was the first time that this became evident, but as I said, couldn't actually lay it as it being Lee's fault. Now, these rumors come to me quite frequently. In the whole department we may have 18 or 20 people.

Mr. JENNER. How many people work under you?

Mr. GRAEF. Directly under me, the day shift is seven or eight, and we have a few on the night shift also. We work quite close to this other department--which does photographic work also, and we have a sink on our side for camera work and then there is a developing sink back to back, at which this other department develops their work.

Mr. JENNER. What do they do?

Mr. GRAEF. Setting type photographically. So, out of these many people, some of them are more prone to carry tales and others, of course, and you have to weigh the evidence, we'll say, and some of the people that had come to me during this time and just mentioned, or we'll say, scuttlebutt that went around about Lee being hard to get along with, where, in fact, some of the people are hard to get along with themselves, so you just had to more or less try to get along with everyone. We all have to do that and it wasn't until this scene happened that I saw how Lee's temper worked, but the--the overwhelming mass of evidence--everyone it seemed no one liked him.

Mr. JENNER. He had no friends?

Mr. GRAEF. No friends.

Mr. JENNER. And he didn't appear to you to seek to cultivate any?

Mr. GRAEF. By this time, you see, this 6 months had elapsed and at this time work was suffering and he at this time--it was definite that he had no friends. Everyone couldn't be wrong, and so all of this evidence weighed against the decision to keep him on as an employee.

Mr. JENNER. It culminated in his discharge.

Mr. GRAEF. In his dismissal?

Mr. JENNER. All right, I guess that's about it. Thank you.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, I hope I have been of whatever help I have been.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to inconvenience you in this matter.

Mr. GRAEF. If I can be of further assistance, please call me and I will be glad to do what I can.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DENNIS HYMAN OFSTEIN

The testimony of Dennis Hyman Ofstein was taken at 2 p.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., counsel for the Commission, and this is Miss Oliver. Would you rise and be sworn?

Do you promise on this deposition which I am about to take of you to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Dennis Hyman Ofstein [spelling] D-e-n-n-i-s H-y-m-a-n O-f-s-t-e-i-n. Is that correct?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ofstein, you received, did you, a letter from Mr. Rankin?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which were enclosed three documents, a copy of Executive Order 11130 creating the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is an order of the President of the United States, Lyndon B. Johnson.

There is a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission and a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission which we adopt.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have learned, from those documents, is investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and to give particular attention to Lee Harvey Oswald and anybody who had any contact with him during his lifetime. It is our information that you had some contact with him, or with people who had contact with him. The Commission is interested in that contact, and I would like to ask you questions about it, if I may.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Very well, sir.

Mr. JENNER. First, tell me a little bit about yourself. Are you a former serviceman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what branch of service did you serve?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was in the Army, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when did you go in and when were you discharged?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I went in in August, I believe, in 1957, and I was discharged November 1960.

Mr. JENNER. That was an honorable discharge, I assume?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you reside in Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your home town?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time; I was born in St. Louis and I have lived in Florida for the most part of my life.

Mr. JENNER. And are you a married man?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. That would take us back into 1961--in any event?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what has been the nature of your business, occupation, employment, profession or vocation?

Mr. OFSTEIN. For the past 2 years I have been with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman.

Mr. JENNER. As a cameraman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your work immediately prior to that, by whom were you employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was working for Sinclair Refining Co. at a local service station.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during his lifetime?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, and in your own words tell the circumstances under which that acquaintance arose.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well; it was when he became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman trainee and he was in the same department I was and due to the fact that I had worked there and knew a little bit about the job, I was--as well as everyone else down there--expected to help him and more or less--not supervise, but kind of keep my eye on him and help him along.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I am 24.

Mr. JENNER. You were born in 1940?

Mr. OFSTEIN. 1939, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1939, and Mr. Oswald's birth date was October 18, 1939, you--so you were the same age?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were already employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall when Lee Oswald came there, were you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection as to when that was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems like it was October or November 1962.

Mr. JENNER. I have his employment card here--October 12, 1962--does that sort of square with your recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when you became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are still employed by them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were initially a trainee as well as Oswald?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And how did you become employed there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time.

Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent there----

Mr. JENNER. And with whom did you talk when you came there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was there early for the appointment and I talked to Leonard Calverly, who was the daytime foreman in the camera department, and he showed me around the place, and he talked to me and told me the final decision would be up to Mr. Graef.

Mr. JENNER. That's G-r-a-e-f [spelling]?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He is head of what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He is a supervisor in charge of the camera department, and I talked with him at approximately 9 o'clock and he seemed satisfied--he would give me a try as a trainee, and wanted to know when I could come to work, and I told him that morning and I went to work immediately.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any experience in the use of cameras?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not in the same type of camera--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What experience had you had in camera work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It had been strictly pleasure photography with smaller cameras.

Mr. JENNER. Had you done any developing work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had had some darkroom experience?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Very much?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not a whole lot--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen inquire of you as to your experience in that direction?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both of them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall--I know that Mr. Graef did.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of photography work does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It's strictly commercial--advertising type of photography. We make posters and poster effects and different types of effects for different advertising media--newspaper, magazines, and so forth--billboards.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of cameras are employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not sure of the brand names we have.

Mr. JENNER. I'm thinking more of the size, weight, whether they are portable or aren't portable, or whether they are fixed or aren't fixed.

Mr. OFSTEIN. They are fixed, they move on a track to determine the size of the copy that is photographed, and they have fixed mounted lenses in the walls.

Mr. JENNER. And you move from one lens to another, is that the way?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; you mount the copy to be photographed on the board and you move that board, and the board that you put your film on--to get it different sizes.

Mr. JENNER. What is the character of the training?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Mainly they start you out with doing small jobs--just normal--what we call straight shots. It amounts to getting a size and photographing it and developing it, opaquing the negatives, and making nice clean prints, and then as you progress you do more difficult type work.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what lithography is, lithographing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I have heard the term--that's all.

Mr. JENNER. Making metal plates?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or reproductions?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any lithographic work done by that company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain--I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Do they do any printing themselves?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that kind of work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They have the photosetter machine which does the printing on film usually for a transfer to some other surface. They have hot metal, they have linotype and monotype, and, of course, they have reprint presses.

Mr. JENNER. And you were trained to do what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Strictly camera work.

Mr. JENNER. Did your work extend beyond the taking of the photographic imprint on a film?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; we were taught also to set filmotype, which is a process of writing out on a sheet of paper from a film negative that's already been put into a roll and making words and sentences and so on and photographing that, also, distortion of negatives and different types of copy.

Mr. JENNER. What do you do to the distortion work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they have different processes--they have what they call perspective, which entails turning the copy board and the film mounting board at different angles from each other to make one end look smaller going off at a distance, and they have what is known as stretches and squats, which entails putting mirrors before the copy board to make a character or letter taller or smaller and doing circles.

Mr. JENNER. They would have a magnifying or contracting mirror?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and circles which is done with a circle device using a film positive to curve a straight line around and, of course, they have their different reproduction effects, such as the screens and the halftones.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether this company has done any confidential or secret work for any agency of the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't know the nature of the classification. I do know that they do work for the U.S. Government.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in any of that work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only during strike--approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald did?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir--I'm sure he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Is that work confined to those in the plant who are particularly skilled or trained to do that particular kind of work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald at the time his employment there was terminated reached that degree of skill?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that is handled by a different department altogether.

Mr. JENNER. And how long had you been employed there when Lee Harvey came with the company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was hired in March, 2 years ago, 1962--I would say approximately 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when he came--about approximately when?

Mr. OFSTEIN. October 1962.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with him when he became employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any social contact with him during all the period of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with him because of the employment you had and the work you were doing and the work he was doing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become sufficiently acquainted with him that you either sought to visit him or invite him to visit you, or did an occasion arise ultimately in which you thought your acquaintance was sufficient or your interest in him or his wife or both of them was sufficient that you sought to have some social contact?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. On the day that his employment terminated, I told him that I hoped he found another job and we would have to get together sometime, being he was married and I was, and I believe it was approximately a week later when I wrote a letter to him inviting him and his wife to come and visit us some Saturday evening and have social activities.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any response to that letter?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. From the day his employment terminated to the present, have you seen him in person?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From that day until the present, had you had any contact at all with him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; only my attempt at inviting him and his wife to the house.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that circumstance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did you know where to write him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He gave me his address--post office box.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the number?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I have it with me.

Mr. JENNER. You made a note of it, I take it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I wrote it down.

Mr. JENNER. And you still have it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe so--yes, sir; Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you a telephone number?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, do you know about Oswald's ability to operate a motor vehicle?

Mr. OFSTEIN. None whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Did your acquaintance reach the point at which he talked with you some of his past history?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Let's start back to the time he became employed in October 1962, and you start in your own words and tell us your acquaintance with him, how that acquaintance ripened, if it did ripen, the nature of your work with him at the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall plant.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, after he became employed, we worked more or less side by side while he was training and everything, and the contact I had with him--it was necessary to teach him how to operate the cameras and how to opaque negatives and make clean prints and just the general work around there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right at that point--what was his skill and acquaintance in that connection when he first started?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he seemed to take a great interest in it as far as skill went--it was, I would say, at the beginning approximately the same as anyone else's would have been.

Mr. JENNER. Little or none?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Little or none; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. OFSTEIN. He did improve somewhat, as far as I could see, but never turned out extreme quality work such as is required to leave the plant, and, of course, that is what caused the termination of his employment. It must have been about January of 1963, that--of course--at the time, he was having trouble getting along with people. He wasn't the outgoing type who tried to make friends. You had to more or less stick with him and be with him constantly to even talk to him freely. He would shove his way in places, he wouldn't wait his turn at certain machines, and the reason I got along with him as well as I did, possibly, is because I am outgoing and I try to get along with everybody, and I believe that their own disposition is theirs. If I don't like it, I don't exactly have to put up with it, but I feel that there are people who don't like me for things I do, so I overlooked most of his bad traits and things that most of the other fellows got upset about and mad about. And, we talked occasionally and he wanted to know at one point if it was possible to make an enlargement of a normal negative there such as is taken in a small camera and I told him, "Yes," and showed him how to do it, and he had one picture that he wanted to enlarge. It showed a river of some sort, with a fairly nice looking building in the background, and I asked him if that was in Japan because he had been stationed in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. He told you he had?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and he said, "No, it wasn't in Japan," but he wouldn't elaborate on it, and I found out later that it was in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. How much later did you find that out?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Possibly the latter part of February, or the middle part of February 1963.

Mr. JENNER. How did you find that out?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He came down with some Russian literature one day.

Mr. JENNER. Russian literature--what was the form of this literature?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper, I believe, at the time.

Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Printed in Russian hieroglyphics?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; yes.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, it was a Russian language publication?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; published in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did he show it to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He didn't exactly show it to me, but it was in plain view.

Mr. JENNER. Did you look at it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about it that would tend to identify it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely clearly--it was possibly a copy of the Soviet White Russian, I believe is what the title of it is, but I noticed that there--we had a conversation about the paper.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody present in addition to yourself and Oswald?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was the substance of the conversation, first?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he saw me looking at the paper and he wanted to know if I understood anything that was written there, as I had written down a couple of characters and I told him I read a little and understood a little, and therefore I asked him if he could read the paper, and he said, "Yes," he understood Russian very well, and that was possibly the thing that brought our friendship or acquaintanceship closer to being a friendship than anyone else's down there.

Mr. JENNER. You discovered a common interest other than your work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where had you learned to decipher Russian characters?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I learned this while I was in the service.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you stationed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was stationed in Germany for the active part of my tour. I was stationed in California for my training and at the various and sundry other little towns for basic training and temporary status.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take any work in the language school out in California at Monterey?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that came about?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I should have, and I was given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I was sent to Monterey to study.

Mr. JENNER. And how long were you at Monterey?

Mr. OFSTEIN. One year.

Mr. JENNER. And was that entire year spent in the study of the Russian language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I assume, with an entire year's study at that special school of Monterey, you acquired a facility with the language, did you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not as well as I should have; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And why was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was a little on the young side then and I was interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to town and the availability of recreation there deterred my studies.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You acquired some facility in reading Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And some facility in speaking Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was this conversational Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about writing Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; all that was covered.

Mr. JENNER. And at the end of the 1 year what happened?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent to an oversea duty station in Germany and completed my tour there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your study of the Russian language at anytime from the time you left Monterey until the present?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--you told him you could handle a few characters?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you then tell him about your study of the Russian language when you were in the Army?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he asked me where I had learned it and I told him I had picked it up during the time I was in the service, as well as the German language, which I picked up while I was stationed in Germany, and I asked him where he had learned to read Russian and he wouldn't elaborate on it at first, and after a period of time--I don't know how long--he did admit to me that he had been in the Soviet Union and my assumption was possibly that he had worked as an agent of the United States at the first.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you, if he ever did, as to where he acquired his knowledge of and facility with the Russian language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He never did elaborate on whether he learned it in the Soviet Union or before or just how he had picked it up.

Mr. JENNER. He was uncommunicative on that subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. More or less; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him directly?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to converse with him in Russian or he with you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. We said a few words in Russian to each other--I would more or less ask him or tell him, "Good morning" and ask him how he was feeling or some other things like that, and he would respond and usually make a criticism on my ability to speak the language.

Mr. JENNER. He would make criticism--was that a friendly criticism on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't ridicule?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. And he seemed very happy of the fact that I was able to speak a little Russian, and he seemed to enjoy that more than any of the other things down there.

Mr. JENNER. With regard to your facility with the language, did you have a greater facility to understand it when spoken by someone else than you did with reading it or speaking it yourself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he speak to you in Russian from time to time?

Mr. OFSTEIN. From time to time--very seldom.

Mr. JENNER. You say he asked you to help him make an enlargement of a print or of a film?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a print and he wanted a negative on it, so I got him a continuous tone negative, which is the type required for reproduction.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us what you mean by that--somebody has a positive print?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's what he had?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And it showed a river and a nice building in the background?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he wanted it enlarged?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I shot a negative of it from a masking film, which is the type film required to reproduce a photograph such as is used by most people of children or their houses or their cars, and showed him how to put it in the enlarger and blow it up and the type of paper to use, the different contrasts of paper, and he made the enlargement of the print. It was a pretty rough print--it had been torn at one time.

Mr. JENNER. You mean his print had been torn?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a photograph or a postcard, or was it something that you were under the impression he had taken?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Himself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. With a camera--what I would call a Brownie camera?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. After I showed him how to do that, he experimented with it a little bit and got what he thought was possibly the best reproduction he could have gotten of it, and several times thereafter he made enlargements of pictures that he had while he was in the service, pictures that he said were taken in Japan, showing snow on the ground in bivouac areas and so on with himself in several of them.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any more pictures of Russia, taken in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not that I noticed. If he had any, he didn't show them.

Mr. JENNER. But he did not have the facility himself to make these enlargements, you had to show him how to do it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. About what period of time was this with respect to when he started working and when his employment was terminated?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I would just make a guess that it was about 1 month after he started, because he seemed interested in whether the company would allow him to reproduce his own pictures, and I told him that while they didn't sanction that sort of thing, that people do it now and then. They do it occasionally and end up reproducing a couple of pictures that wasn't anything out of the way.

Mr. JENNER. He did reach a point where he told you something of his background?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. His past history?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that he was in the Marine Corps and that after he disclosed that he had been in the Soviet Union, he told me that that had been after his tour of service with the Marines, and again he wouldn't elaborate on how he was there or why he was there, and as I say, at that time I presumed he was possibly with the U.S. Government or on a scholarship basis or some other basis and just didn't want to talk about it, so I didn't pursue it any further, and I discarded this idea after I learned that he had a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. When did that develop?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That must have been about the middle or the latter part of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He brought it up one day when we were speaking of the Russian language and I was talking to him about it--or we were talking together, I should say, about the Soviet Union, and he was telling me various things about their way of life over there and he mentioned that he had married a Russian girl, a White Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell us now what he said about what his life over there and his reactions to it--what did he say in that whole area in substance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, the main thing--he dwelled on their difference of life--mainly to do with their food and the habits of the people and the military installations and the disbursement of the military units.

He mentioned that they used caviar over there on bread the way we use butter, because of the lack of butter and dairy products, and how you would find things like loaves of bread on the tables in the cafes and restaurants the way we would find salt and pepper over here. He also mentioned about the Russian guards. At this time he disclosed that the building in the photograph was some military headquarters and that the guards stationed there were armed with weapons and ammunition and had orders to shoot any trespassers or anyone trying to enter the building without permission.

He also mentioned about the disbursement of the military units, saying that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry divisions and various units the way we do in the United States, that they would have all of their aircraft in one geographical location and their tanks in another geographical location, and their infantry in another, and he mentioned that in Minsk he never saw a vapor trail, indicating the lack of aircraft in the area. He also said about the Russian people that they were sentimental or serious people and somewhat simple, that----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; I just wondered if you misspoke--you said they were sentimental and serious, did you intend both of those words?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was more or less searching for the right words. I remember he said they were simple and more or less serious minded. They were more mindful of world events than he thought the American people were, but that they didn't have the war hysteria, as he called it, that the people in the United States did.

He said whenever you saw any indication in the Russian newspapers of war, that the Soviet people thought it was relatively close because of the lack of publication about it, such as at the Lebanon crisis and he mentioned that he had been in Moscow, I believe, and a couple of other cities other than Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Did he name any others besides Moscow and Minsk, did he name any others?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He possibly did, but I don't recall what they would have been.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that he did mention some others, though you cannot recall the names; or, are you uncertain that he did mention any others at all that he had been in?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not extremely certain at all; it's possible that he did.

Mr. JENNER. All right; when you were speaking freely without any prompting on my part, you mentioned Minsk and Moscow and others--now that I have pressed you a little, what is your present recollection on that score now?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That he had mentioned them, but exactly what they were, whether they were large towns or whether they were small towns--I don't recall--whether he just visited them or had some purpose in being there, he never did mention that at all.

He mentioned that he was in Moscow for the May Day parade at one time and that the Soviets made a big show of power of their latest tanks and planes and so forth, and I asked him at one time about his freedom of movement, and he said that he had complete freedom of movement over there, that the MVD, I believe it was, had inquired of his neighbors about him and had talked to him on one occasion or two, but that they didn't put any holds on him or restrict him from any areas or anything like that, and I believe it was about this time that he mentioned he had married the White Russian girl.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about where the Russian girl he married was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to where she was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. My impression was that he was living with her--that he had her here in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. But he didn't say anything that would lead you now to think or recall the statement on his part that she was with him in the United States, or is that an assumption on your part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he did mention it. He mentioned that he had gotten several books from the library at times to take home for him and his wife to read.

Mr. JENNER. In his discussions of life in Russia, to the extent you can relate them, did he ever voice any political doctrine or theory?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression as to how he regarded his life in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he didn't think it was the type of life that he wanted to lead.

Mr. JENNER. Did he expand on that to any extent?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that the people there were poor, they worked and made just about enough to buy their clothes and their food; that the only ones who had enough money to buy anything else, any of the luxuries in life, were those who were Communist Party officials or high ranking members in the party, and I asked him at one time if he were a Communist and he said, "No."

Mr. JENNER. Did he voice any criticism of the Communist Party members--did he make any negative remarks?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; only that he didn't think that he would enjoy the Communist way of life.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views to you with respect to his reaction to the Government of the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; he mentioned the last day he was with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall--I asked him what he was going to do, where he would go to work, and he said he didn't know. He liked the type of work at the company and that he would like to stay with this type of work and he would look around and if he didn't find anything else he could always go back to the Soviet Union, and sort of laughed about it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that comment of his with respect to returning to the Soviet Union was jocular?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was sort of a flippant remark--"If I don't get a job here, I can go someplace else," and I mentioned at the time to him of a couple other shops around town that did that kind of work and suggested that he go see them.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response, if any, to that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he might give them a try.

Mr. JENNER. This was at the tail end of his employment with this company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; this was the last day.

Mr. JENNER. How did he appear that day or react to the news which he received that his employment was being terminated?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed like he was calm, just like any other day except that he told me this was his last day with the company and more or less like it was just the end of the job and he was going to try to find another one.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything of whether he had been let out or whether he had quit?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He just said he had been relieved from his duties as cameraman.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any resentment in that connection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When he first came with the company, how did he get along with his fellow employees?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not very well--just enough to talk to the people who were working alongside of him to learn what he had to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did those conditions or relations improve as the months went along?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; they worsened.

Mr. JENNER. They worsened?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did they worsen before this Russian language newspaper turned up, or did they really begin to worsen when the Russian language newspaper turned up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They worsened before this.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him every day that he worked?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that you worked?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had some interest in him as a person?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for the difficulties he had with respect to fellow employees, and why did those relationships worsen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, we work in a rather tight area. There is little room to move around in the darkroom, just about enough room for a man to stand by the developing trays and allow one person to squeeze behind him and get by, and he would make it a habit of just bursting through there head-on with no regard to who was in the room if anyone was there, and also we were required to get proofs of the work we had done on a Bruning machine, which is somewhat like a Thermofax--it works on the same principle of making a proof of it or a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. I tried a patent case against the Bruning Co., so I know what their machines are.

Mr. OFSTEIN. But the other department with which we shared the Bruning machine requires a little more delicate work with the machine, as their proofs are proofread. Ours are just for further use in case a job comes back and we need to know what was on the job. He would burst in there and if someone else was on it, didn't make him any difference, he would go ahead and put his work through and, of course, this made people mad about it.

Mr. JENNER. How would you describe all this, that he was inconsiderate?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And selfish and aggressive with respect to himself and impatient with the rights of others?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I think he thought he had the right of way in any case, either that or he was just in a hurry to get through, and through his hurrying be made no regard for anyone else's well-being or anyone else's jobs.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. I never heard him ask anyone to go to lunch with him, or no one, including myself, that I recall, asked him to go to lunch. I believe I might have asked him at one time and he always ate alone.

Mr. JENNER. Did he eat with you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even though you asked him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; not a bit.

Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe I did; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he declined?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And at least he didn't accept the invitation?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice in particular, since you mentioned this without my prompting, that he did eat all by himself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I noticed that he didn't eat with anyone in the shop.

Mr. JENNER. He was not a friendly person, then?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He wasn't an outgoing person. I thought he could be friendly if, as with the Russian language incident--there was something in common, something that he would take an interest in.

Mr. JENNER. But he made no effort to develop things in common with others; is that right?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had an attitude of resentment toward anybody or anything or his lot in life?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely or exactly resentment. I would say he didn't get along with people and that several people had words with him at times about the way he barged around the plant, and one of the fellows back in the photosetter department almost got in a fight with him one day, and I believe it was Mr. Graef that stepped in and broke it up before it got started, but he was also offered rides by Mr. Graef, and I offered him a ride a couple of times either to his home or wherever he wanted to catch a bus, and I know that he always declined my offer of a ride.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in the evening when he would leave he would say, "I am going up to the post office to pick up my mail," and a couple of times I would offer to give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my way and I have to come in this direction anyway to Live Oak before I turn, which is only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would walk.

Mr. JENNER. Did the subject matter of his experience with firearms ever arise?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in which he indicated or in which there was discussion of his ability in the use of firearms?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems that he said while he was in the Marines that he qualified as a marksman.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is that rating; do you know?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain in the Marines--it differs from the Army, I am sure.

Mr. JENNER. What is a marksman in the Army, what level of skill is that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. If I remember correctly, marksman is just barely qualifying, and "expert," of course, is the top you can go.

Mr. JENNER. I have read about snipers--are they "experts", is that their classification?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain, but I'm sure they have to be fairly handy with a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is a little uncertain in this area, is it not?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is, with respect to what Oswald might or did say to you on the subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I know he said he qualified and I'm almost certain that he said as a marksman.

Mr. JENNER. Did your discussion go beyond that, did he elaborate on it in other words?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that's about the only instance in your recollection in which there was a discussion on the subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his industry, his promptness, his attendance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed to usually arrive on time and expressed a desire to work overtime if he was needed, except during the week at times there were periods when he said he had to go to school and he would leave with some books, I believe they were typing books from the library, and he mentioned that he was going to Crozier Tech at night, and I believe this was one night a week or two at the most. Other than that, he was there every day, the best I recall, and he did work one Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have difficulty obtaining Saturday work from the company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they go on an experience and seniority basis as to overtime. The people with more seniority have a choice as to whether they want to work or not and usually they do.

Mr. JENNER. To make that extra money?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And also, does skill have anything to do with it--you mentioned experience--you meant to include in that experience--his skill for the level of attainment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he had not reached the point at which all of these factors combined enabled him to command or be reasonably fortunate in respect to having overtime work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Had your skills reached the point at which you had overtime work on Saturday when you sought it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his aptitudes with respect to the work for which he was being trained?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He always strived to try to do good. It seemed like he was fast, but I noticed that quite a few of his jobs that he did perform did come back within a normal working day.

Mr. JENNER. More than the normal?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. There are errors always made, I suppose, by everybody?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But your impression is that his percentage of error was above average?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that in and among your fellow workers and with Mr. Graef?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was battered around for quite awhile--exactly how long, I don't know. About the way that he was turning out a lot of work, because it had to be redone, therefore wasting company materials.

Mr. JENNER. And time?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and they had decided, I believe, it must have been a month before they finally let him go--to dismiss him.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the general scuttlebutt around the place?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That he was reaching the end of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did ever the occasion arise when you learned anything with respect to whether he was ever able to operate an automobile or ever owned one or got in one to drive it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; every time I saw him on the street coming down this way after work he was walking.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever bring any of these books to work--books as distinguished from newspapers?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall if he did or not, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a Russian newspaper that elicited this discussion between you as to the use of the Russian language, or was it a book?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. Not a book?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tell him where you had learned Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just said while I was in the service I had picked it up.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time ever say or did you ever get the impression that he had studied Russian while he was in the service?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was what in that connection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, that he could either have learned it while in the Soviet Union or at a school.

Mr. JENNER. At a private school?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; private or public school.

Mr. JENNER. But not while he was in the service?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he never led me to believe that.

Mr. JENNER. The information he gave you with respect to the disposition of military units in Russia--that information was of the character you have already related--that the tanks were in one area?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the other types of equipment in another, and did he tell you where these various units were?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The best I recall, he mentioned that, as I say, that he never saw a vapor trail of a plane around Minsk, and he mentioned the location of the tanks, but I am not sure whether he mentioned whether it was north or south.

Mr. JENNER. Of what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. In the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. In relating this to you, was it in terms of his having seen these units?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was the impression I got, though he never directly said so.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--after you learned that he was married to a Russian woman--did he say anything to you about how he had met her and courted her or any of the circumstances with respect to his marrying her?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was just that he had married a Russian citizen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And brought her to this country?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his military career?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he had served in the Marines and that he had served in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way when you first met this man, had you ever heard of him before or anything about him to your then recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What else did he say about the military dispositions?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he felt it was a rather poor way to distribute the military because of the fact that support needed by one type of unit, such as the infantry, needs tanks--took such a long delay because they had to move it from another segment of the country and that he thought this was a rather poor situation.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about the location of the--these units--were they widely disbursed, that is, let's take a tank unit--did you get the impression that the tank unit would be located far away from Minsk or near Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he said the tanks were in the north and I'm not familiar whether Minsk is in the north of Russia or not?

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression they were not in Minsk, however?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say, if anything, about units that were located in and about Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The only thing he mentioned along that line was the military headquarters and to the best of my recollection, it was a secret police.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the--is that what you mean by the secret police, the NVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, that they had a headquarters there in Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comment about the MVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that they had inquired about him several times and that they didn't follow him around. He said they were somewhat like our own Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever make any comparison that was, you thought, an attempt at being invidious with respect to the FBI as against the MVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he just said that their operations were somewhat similar in checking out people they wanted to check on.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that, did he ever say anything about the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his observations that regarded, for example, an area in which he could see jet contrails, whether he would also find nearby, or even at a distance, any other military units?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said if he saw tank treads of tanks, that he wouldn't see aircraft or infantry units nearby, and that if he saw contrails, it was the same as the infantry units, that they just wouldn't intermingle them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about what had led him to make these observations?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, as I said earlier that he had never seen any contrails, he said, in the Minsk area and that he had been in Moscow and I presumed he had seen the type units that were stationed at Minsk and possibly at Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any work done at Jaggars-Chile-Stovall with the use of microdot?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what a microdot is?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was explained to me by Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. OFSTEIN. He asked me one day if I knew the term "microdot", and I told him, "no", I wasn't familiar with it and he told me that that was the method of taking a large area of type or a picture and reducing it down to an extremely small size for condensing and for purposes, such as where you had a lot of type to photograph to confine them into a small area, and he said that that is the way spies sometimes sent messages and pictures of diagrams and so on, was to take a microdot photograph of it and place it under a stamp and send it. I presumed that he had either read this in a book or had some knowledge of it from somewhere, but where, I didn't know.

Mr. JENNER. When did this conversation occur with respect to the termination of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. This was possibly 2 or 3 months before.

Mr. JENNER. So, this was after the time that the Russian newspaper had shown up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it after the time you learned that he married a Russian girl and brought her to this country?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That occurred afterwards?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What reaction did you have when Oswald talked about--raised the subject of microdots and their use or possible use in espionage?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I just thought that as far as he was concerned, it was possibly another phase of photography and that he was interested in it. It has since, come up down at the company--the use of microdots and the different techniques, but we are still not employing those techniques and I thought possibly that he might have also, as I have several times, come to read things about microfilm and, of course you see it in these science fiction movies of space travel and so--the use of microfilm, and I presumed this was along the same lines.

Mr. JENNER. Did it ever arouse in you any alarm or any doubt?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just thought it was possibly a passing piece of conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Here again you didn't become suspicious or concerned?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to anybody about that incident?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. After Oswald was released from employment, I did ask the recruiting sergeant for Army security here in town, who I was stationed with overseas, about the possibility of getting the FBI to run a routine check on him because of the fact that I have done security work, and the fact that I also--this was just before I wrote the letter to Oswald inviting him and his wife over--due to the fact that I wanted to keep my record clean. Well, I didn't suspect him as being a spy or anything like that--I just wanted to make sure I was with the right company, and he told me that it was probably nothing.

Mr. JENNER. You wanted to inquire not only with respect to him but also whether you were with the right company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, sir, I wouldn't jeopardize losing any chance of getting a security clearance at anytime I needed it.

Mr. JENNER. And, Sergeant Crozier, did you say his name was--I believe it is Sergeant Geiger.

Mr. OFSTEIN. His first name is Tom--I can't remember his last name now.

Mr. JENNER. Or, is it Kriegler?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Kriegler--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He had been in the service with you, you had served together?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, he reassured you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that it was probably nothing to worry about.

Mr. JENNER. When you discussed this Russian language newspaper with Oswald, was there anything said as to the source of the paper?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not immediately. I believe it was possibly about 2 months before he left--I asked him where he got the paper and I said that I wanted to find a little more up-to-date material to study Russian with, than what you find in the library, and that I had looked around town and on the newsstands that I saw handling them--Russian language newspapers and he mentioned that he got it from a firm in New York or Washington--Victor A. Kamkin.

Mr. JENNER. That's K-a-m-k-i-n [spelling]?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, he gave you the address in New York City?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was New York or Washington--I don't know for certain. I made an error in my report to the FBI to that respect.

Mr. JENNER. The fact is you were uncertain, but you indicated to the FBI more positively?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; whenever the agent came to my home and picked up the materials, the address was there and we clarified that.

Mr. JENNER. What materials did he pick up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, Lee Oswald had given me a Russian newspaper, "The Soviet White Russian," and a couple of magazines--the one being a magazine newspaper type thing and one a magazine, and the FBI agent wanted these--one of them had his handwriting on the back.

Mr. JENNER. And, those were turned over to the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI approach you or did you approach the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They approached me.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was sometime in December of last year.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was after the assassination?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent to your knowledge ever speak to you about Oswald anytime prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, other than your talk with the recruiting sergeant, Sergeant Kriegler, had you drawn the matter to the attention of any Government agent or agency?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do any of these names refresh your recollection as to the newspapers or magazines that he had--"Soviet White Russian"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. A local newspaper from the White Russian portion of the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. And "The Crocodile"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; that was a--it would be hard to say whether that would be a newspaper or a magazine. It seemed like it was thick and stapled as a magazine, but in the form of a newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. And, then "The Agitator"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was a magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did he speak of these or did he have one or more of these off and on during his employment, or was there just one occasion that you saw them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe the only time he had them down there was one incident when I picked them up and the other time later on when he brought these to me with the address of Victor Kamkin.

Mr. JENNER. After the specific instance about which you have testified, there was a subsequent instance in which he brought you for possible ordering purposes, some additional either periodicals or newspapers?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Among which were the names of which I have related to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. Now, he did mention that "The Agitator" was a political magazine and that I probably wouldn't want to order.

Mr. JENNER. He did say that it might well be something you wouldn't want to order?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of "The Agitator" up to this point?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At no time while you were at Monterey did "The Agitator" come to your attention?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do they use Russian language newspapers and periodicals, that is, printed in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the Monterey language school?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender these papers and these periodicals to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he gave them to me and I told him--I thanked him for them and told him I would bring them back within a couple of days and I was going to glance through them and he said that would be all right, that I could keep them.

Mr. JENNER. That you could keep them and you didn't have to return them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You surrendered them to the FBI, did you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On those--it seems to me you said earlier there was some handwriting on one or more of these newspapers or periodicals?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Lee Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. Was the handwriting on those newspapers or periodicals placed on those items in your presence?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe they were--I believe that was the address of Victor Kamkin on the back of one of them.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald in your presence wrote the address of Kamkin on some one of these documents?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to have him help you with your Russian beyond what you have now related to us?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I asked him if he knew any other people who spoke Russian, and he indicated that he did, that he knew several Russian immigrants and I asked him at the time if he would be able to give me anyone's address so that I could speak with them and build up my vocabulary, and my ability to speak it, and he just kept putting me off and saying, "In time you'll meet them, in time you'll meet them" and I never did meet any of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give any reason for his apparent putting you off?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that these people liked to speak with Americans who had an interest in their language, but they wouldn't want to take just anyone who went down to the library and picked up a book and sputtered off a few words. He said they enjoyed having someone around who could more or less keep up a running conversation with them.

Mr. JENNER. You thought he was classifying you as one who had a fairly poor command of the language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that he had some hesitation about throwing you in with a group that spoke fluently?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was not a derogatory attitude on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said with a little bit of study that I could possibly get in with the groups and speak with them.

Mr. JENNER. And your feeling is fairly firm that his reluctance in that connection was along the lines you have indicated rather than a desire on his part to keep you from that group?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you feel that had you had a better command of the Russian language he would have been willing to introduce you into that circle?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he would have; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he had any social contact with any of the people in the plant?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether he did or didn't?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I feel that he possibly got along with me better than anyone else down there and we had no social contact.

Mr. JENNER. He had none with you and you rationalized from that he had none with anybody else?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That judgment was affected by the fact also that he appeared not to be getting along very well with others in the plant?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about being a Marxist?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever mentioned?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned the secret police, did any conversation ever occur with respect to any contact of his with, or any contact by, the secret police with him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said that they talked to him once or twice while he was there and that was all, but that mainly it was just like the FBI would be running a check on someone here--they would speak with people who knew them or who were located around them.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything ever discussed during the period he was employed about any particular problems of his in Russia, first, let me say this--any attempt on his part to defect from the United States and become a Russian citizen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Any illnesses on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Any difficulties he may or did or might have encountered in connection with his return to the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or of his getting his wife out of Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his getting out of Russia discussed at all?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the problem with the Cuban nation or with Mr. Castro or any of Castro's activities ever discussed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; at one time when they were having a little difficulty down there. I don't recall just what the difficulty was at the time, but I made a rather derogatory remark about Fidel Castro's ancestry, and he never seemed to get upset about it.

Mr. JENNER. You just got no response out of him at all on that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Just a sort of a shrug of the shoulders.

Mr. JENNER. I noticed there was a discussion between you or he with you, at least, about keeping to yourself the fact that he had been in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there such an incident?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about it--how it arose, what the circumstances were, and what he said and what you said?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was the same time that he informed me that he had been in the Soviet Union--he mentioned that he didn't want it to get around, at this time--this was the time I got the impression that possibly he had been an agent--what was a fleeting impression--and I remarked later that apparently he had told someone else down there because someone mentioned it to me about his having a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. Was this before he told you he had one?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; this was after--in fact, I believe it was after he had been released from employment, but at the time that he did ask me to keep the fact that he had been in Russia to myself, I presumed that I was the only one that knew anything about his Russian activities, that he had even been in the Soviet Union or had a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if this would sort of refresh your recollection--Victor Kamkin Bookstore, Inc., 2906 14th Street NW., Washington 9, D.C.?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that seems like it, that seems like it.

Mr. JENNER. That sparks your recollection--with Washington, D.C., as distinguished from any other city?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write Kamkin?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I got several catalogues from him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever order any Russian literature from him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be pertinent to the subject matter of the Commission's investigation, which I haven't prompted up to the moment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. As directly related to the assassination?

Mr. JENNER. Well--either way--you feel free to say.

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge--no.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the subject matter along the lines that I have questioned you that is in your contacts with Lee Oswald which have not been brought out, that you would like to tell us about, which you think might be helpful?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Nothing that I can recall. As I say, most of the things that he did tell me--I thought were mainly in the lines of conversation and nothing more, and that he never made any political advances one way or the other or gave his own political views. I mean, he never told me anything derogatory about the United States or about the Soviet Union--just that he had resided there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, if you wish, you may read your deposition and make any corrections in it and sign it, or you are of liberty to waive that if you wish. You can do whatever you want--either way, but you have the right to read it and correct it if it needs correcting or additions and to sign it. I would like to know either way so that in case you decide to waive it, the reporter has a kind of a certification different from the kind that is put on when you elect to sign it.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you are entitled to a copy of the deposition if you wish to purchase one from this young lady, and you can make arrangements with her in that respect.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine. I will waive the right to sign.

Mr. JENNER. And if at anytime you want a copy of your deposition, call Miss Oliver and if you happen to forget her name, talk to the U.S. attorney and he will give you her name.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. OFSTEIN. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JOSEPH LE BLANC

The testimony of Charles Joseph Le Blanc was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Joseph Le Blanc, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, wrote you last week advising that we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he included with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand, Mr. Le Blanc, that you were employed by the William B. Reily Coffee Co., the William B. Reily Co. more precisely, and still are.

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were employed by that company during the time that Lee Harvey Oswald was also employed by it. Is that correct?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details, would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. LE BLANC. Charles Joseph Le Blanc.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Le Blanc?

Mr. LE BLANC. 2824 South Roman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans?

Mr. LE BLANC. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, sir?

Mr. LE BLANC. November 1, 1929. New Orleans, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived here in New Orleans all of your life?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I lived in Metairie for--oh, I would say all but the last 10 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you moved to New Orleans?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. LE BLANC. William B. Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long have you worked for them?

Mr. LE BLANC. Nine years.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity are you employed by them?

Mr. LE BLANC. What do you mean? What I----

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do?

Mr. LE BLANC. Maintenance man.

Mr. LIEBELER. You work as a maintenance man?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in that job?

Mr. LE BLANC. General maintenance.

Mr. LIEBELER. You keep the machinery in running order?

Mr. LE BLANC. The machinery and different office equipment that needs to be fixed.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of machinery do they have over there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Packaging machinery for the coffee.

Mr. LIEBELER. For packaging coffee?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do they grind the coffee up too and mix it and blend it?

Mr. LE BLANC. They roast it, grind it, and then it goes into these hoppers, and then down to the packaging machinery.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is packed in cans or in paper sacks or----

Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or both?

Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many maintenance men, approximately, do they have working over there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Let's see; four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Four?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the usual number that they have?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, that is about it mostly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee Oswald was employed by the Reily Company?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, as best you can recall, when you first met Oswald and what your relationship with him was, what kind of a person he was, what he did.

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, when they first hired him, well, they brought him to me, because I was to break him in on his job, so I started the procedure of going--start from the fifth floor on down, work a floor each day with him to take and get him broke in on the job and start showing him the routine, how to go about greasing. The first day, I mean when I was showing him, it look like if he caught on to it, all right, if he didn't, it was still all right. He looked like he was just one of these guys that just didn't care whether he learned it or he didn't learn it. And then after I took and--we usually go by the week, because usually after a week anybody with any mechanical knowledge, there is nothing to it, because all it is is finding the grease and oil fittings and we put him on his own. I put him on the fifth floor and told him to take care of everything on the fifth floor and I would be back shortly to check. I would take and put him up there, and about a half hour or 45 minutes or so, I would go back up and check how he is doing. I would go up there and I wouldn't find him. So I asked the fellows that would be working on the floor had they seen him, and they said yes, he squirted the oil can a couple of times around different things and they don't know where he went. So I would start hunting all over the building. There is five stories on one side and four on the other. I would cover from the roof on down and I wouldn't locate him, and I asked him, I said, "Well, where have you been?" And all he would give me was that he was around. I asked him, "Around where?" He says, "Just around," and he would turn around and walk off. On one occasion when I was in the shop and I was working on some sort of piece of machinery--I can't recall what it was at the present time--and he come in the shop and he was standing there by me and watching me, and I asked him, I says, "Are you finished all your greasing?" He said yes. So he asked me, said, "Well, can I help you?" I said, "No, what I am doing I don't need no help." So he stood there a few minutes, and all of a sudden he said, "You like it here?" I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "Do you like it here?" I says, "Well, sure I like it here. I have been here a long time, about 8-1/2 years or so." He says, "Oh, Hell, I don't mean this place." I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He says, "This damn country." I said, "Why, certainly, I love it. After all, this is my country." He turned around and walked off. He didn't say any more. And then after that a lot of times I would be looking for him and the engineer would be looking for him, and on quite a number of occasions when it would get to be a coffeebreak time, we usually go next door to the Crescent City Garage to get a Coke, and there he would be sitting in there drinking a Coke and looking at these magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a regular break time?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the shop?

Mr. LE BLANC. We had 9 o'clock in the morning and 1:30 in the evening. Each one of them was a 10-minute break.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you usually start work in the morning?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I started on different hours there for awhile. For awhile when he was there, I think I was around 8 to 5, and I pretty well stayed those hours as long as----

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there?

Mr. LE BLANC. While Oswald was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Except for the break periods, you were supposed to be at your job----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the plant?

Mr. LE BLANC. In the plant. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now what kind of supervision did Oswald have in his work? You said that you took him around and tried to teach him how to do the job, but then after you finished breaking him in, at least as far as the fifth floor is concerned, he would be pretty much on his own, wouldn't he?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. I mean from the--I started him on the fifth, and then he would work his way on down to the first floor. See? The way I broke him in, I told him, "Make sure that you have got everything on that one floor," and I said, "If it takes you a day to do it, let it take you a day," I said, "but make sure that you have got everything greased and oiled and cleaned." And that is what he was supposed to do, and I told him, I said, "Then if you get finished the fifth floor, or whatever floor you are on, you can always work to the next floor." And then in the evening at 3:15 when the lines were shut down, we had these three machines that had to be cleaned, oiled and greased every day and sometimes twice a day--it all depends on how they ran--and he had to see to it that each evening at 3:15 they was cleaned and greased.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did he have anybody keeping track of him as a general proposition? He really didn't, did he? I mean, he was just----

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the majority of the time he had somebody over him, but as a practice, I mean after you got broke in on your job, well, they wouldn't look after you, keep looking after you. They figured, well, you knew your job and you would go ahead and do your job. But after awhile, well, they seen he was drifting off. Right to the last day before they let him go, why, we kept an eye on him, because we seen then that he wasn't doing the work that he was supposed to be doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. He really wasn't doing the work?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't greasing the machines?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. And you see, we have a greasing log that when you grease the machine you log it the day that you grease it, and actually a lot of times I think he might have put stuff down in the log that he didn't even get to sometimes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just so I can get an idea of what kind of work he was doing, how were the machines greased? Did he have a grease gun or cups and----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; well, we have an air grease gun and we also have these hand-type grease guns.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you used just regular Alemite fittings and grease guns?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So I would imagine from time to time he ended up with the grease on his hands and it was a greasy job?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; it was a dirty job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain about that?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, he would complain now and then. I would tell him, well, that goes in with the job of oiling and greasing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now was he just basically an oiler and greaser, or was he classified as a maintenance man?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different thing?

Mr. LE BLANC. He was hired as an oiler and greaser and helper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have any kind of mechanical proficiency at all? I mean, could you tell? Did he seem to know his way around machines?

Mr. LE BLANC. It didn't look like he had. I think--I mean I don't know--I think he had that in his application, that he was mechanically inclined, but it didn't show up that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Oswald that you can remember?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, he was a boy of very few words. He would walk past you and wouldn't even ask how you are doing, or come and talk, like a lot of us, we would stop and maybe pass a few jokes or just talk a little with each other, but him--I think it was 3 months that he was with us--still, I think if he said 100 words to me, it was plenty, because even when I was breaking him in he wasn't the type boy that would ask you different things about the machines. I was doing all the talking and he was just looking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did these absences of his occur pretty much all the time, or did it get worse as he stayed there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, toward the last it begin to get pretty regular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thing I recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just [demonstrating] just like a kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he used his finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow!" and I used to look at him, and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you thought?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot"; right off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as a joke, you mean, or----

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, because he--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walk past him, he would do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he smile or laugh, or what?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That is what used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking manner, at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or would smile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other associates or people that worked with him closely in the plant, or would you say that you probably worked with him as closely as anybody else?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I imagine I was about the closest, myself and the other maintenance man.

Mr. LIEBELER. The other maintenance men? There were three more?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, there is the engineer, and they had this other boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the engineer is Emmett Barbe--I think you all have a statement from him--and then the other boy was Arturo Rodriguez.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Mexican or Puerto Rican background?

Mr. LE BLANC. He is Mexican, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was associated with Rodriguez outside of the plant at all?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any way of knowing?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever talk to you about his family?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; that was something he very seldom talked about, and myself and the engineer, Emmett Barbe, we always were talking about our families. He had quite a bit of sickness and I had quite a bit of sickness, and a lot of times we would be talking about our families and kids and Oswald, he never would bring in his family, and it was a good while after he was employed with us that I actually found out he was married, because I didn't think he was married because he never did talk about his wife or kids or nobody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lunch break----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the day, you had a lunch break?

Mr. LE BLANC. We had 11 and 11:30. Now at that time I don't know whether we just had the 11:30 or we had two breaks--I can't recall--but I think it was two breaks, lunch breaks, 11 and 11:30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald eat lunch with anybody? Do you remember?

Mr. LE BLANC. Not that I know of. He had never eaten with me, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you usually have lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, myself, I bring mine; but most of them that don't bring their lunch, they usually go down to the corner restaurant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald bring his lunch, or did he eat in the restaurant?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, no; I think he went down to the corner restaurant a lot of times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that Martin's Restaurant?

Mr. LE BLANC. Martin's; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what he used to have for lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how much he spent for his lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a place is Martin's, a pretty inexpensive place or----

Mr. LE BLANC. It is a reasonable place for regular factory--most all the factory workers around there eat there. It is pretty reasonable.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form any opinion of Oswald? You mentioned that you thought he was probably a little bit of a crackpot or somewhat of a crackpot for playing this game with his fingers like he was shooting a gun, but just generally what did you think of this guy?

Mr. LE BLANC. I just--I used to always think--I didn't know whether he was right or whether he had troubles on his mind or what. I mean, I couldn't actually figure what was actually wrong with him, because, I mean, we would go on break and sit on the driveway on the bench. Usually among the maintenance--we always usually a lot of times sit together and we would talk over the job or something, but he would sit on the bench, and he looked like he would be staring into space, and sometimes you would think he was looking right at you, and if you would happen to go to say something, he wouldn't answer you. Looked like that is how far his mind was.

Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to be thinking about something else?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; and looked like his mind was far away at all times.

Mr. LIEBELER. There weren't any of the men there that, as far as you knew, he ever really talked to----

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or anyone he ever opened up to in anyway?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald with the men over there since the assassination?

Mr. LE BLANC. What is that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked about Oswald with the other maintenance men or the other men at the plant?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, we hadn't talked very much, because we just--we left things as was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversations with anybody that you can remember, speculating as to whether Oswald really did this or whether he was capable of it, he was that kind of a guy?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the most talk was around the plant a lot of times, that they thought he was actually too stupid to actually pull something like that. They didn't think he even had enough brains to pull a foolish thing like that, because that is just the kind of a person he looked to be.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly intelligent or----

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be interested in his surroundings or just sort of a----

Mr. LE BLANC. Like in his greasing records, one time something could be spelled right, and just a little ways away he might have to use the same word and it would be all misspelled. I don't know whether he didn't know how to write or he just didn't care how he put it down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever question him about that or indicate to him that he was misspelling words?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, on a couple of occasions I told him if he could write plainer, it would be a lot better for me to check, because a lot of times if something would go wrong with a machine, we would go to that greasing log and check when is the last time it was greased, and when you would look at his writing, it would be like Greek, you couldn't hardly understand it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, he would look at you and turn around and walk off.

Mr. LIEBELER. He wouldn't say anything?

Mr. LE BLANC. Wouldn't say nothing. That is what used to get me. I used to--if I bawled him out about not greasing something, ordinarily a man would tell you, well, I will try to do better, or, that is the best I could do, or something like that, but that is what used to get me so mad when he would give me no answer whatsoever, and that is when I told him one day, I said, "You are going to end up driving me crazy if I am going to have to keep up with this guy, because he don't give me no answer whatsoever if I bawl him out about his job or anything."

Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you tell that to--Mr. Barbe?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I think it was Barbe I told that to.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a sort of a--what--engineer, plant engineer?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; he is the plant engineer.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned to Oswald the misspellings in the words that----

Mr. LE BLANC. No; I didn't mention misspelling. I figured, well, maybe the boy can't spell so good, and I figured, well, as long as it was close, I might be able to understand it, but there was a couple of occasions he would put things down and I would have to actually ask him what it was, because it wasn't nowhere near the name that the machine would actually be.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed that sometimes he would spell things right and sometimes he would just spell them wrong?

Mr. LE BLANC. Sometimes he would spell them wrong and sometimes he would spell them right. That is what I couldn't understand about him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Mr. Barbe or anybody?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; when Mr. Barbe noticed it was the day after the assassination when the agent was there and we were trying to get all the possible information we could get off of it, you know, and that is when we got the greasing records of when he was there and went through them, and that is when he seen a lot of misspelling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether those records were turned over to the Secret Service or the FBI?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; they were turned over.

Mr. LIEBELER. The greasing records were?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Oswald that you think might be helpful? I am about out of questions myself. Do you have anything else that you remember----

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or that you think I should have asked you about?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in that case, I want to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have shown us and for your patience.

Mr. LE BLANC. Any way I could help. I was glad to.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Le Blanc, both personally and on behalf of the Commission. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. LE BLANC. Because before he was killed, I told the investigators that if there was any way that I could help them to solve this thing--because we was pretty well shook up about it to think that somebody at our place, that worked at our place, had to pull a stunt like that, and we were out to get down to the bottom of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald talking politics with anybody, or did you ever talk politics to him yourself?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; around election time or anything like that, sometimes a conversation or something would come up, but he never would bring up a conversation about any politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard him say anything about President Kennedy?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any question come up as to racial problems or integration problems? He never expressed himself on that?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any Negro employees over there at the plant?

Mr. LE BLANC. Oh, yes; there is a number of them, quite a number of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald demonstrate any particular animosity toward them, or did he seem to treat them differently from the rest of the men?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; he went along just like if they was white, I mean just the way he went about with us, not saying anything. That was the same way with them, looked like.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't think that he was either--that he felt particularly differently about the Negro employees than the other men?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; it didn't look like it. You know what I mean, with his attitude.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think we have covered it. Thanks a lot.

TESTIMONY OF ADRIAN THOMAS ALBA

The testimony of Adrian Thomas Alba was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

A witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God, testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Alba, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the resolution referred to, together with a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure governing the taking of the testimony by the Commission?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning any knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald which you might have gained as a result of, as we understand it, his habit or practice of coming into your garage, which is, we understand, located right next door to the Reily Company on Magazine Street, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go into detail, will you state your full name for the record?

Mr. ALBA. Adrian Thomas Alba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. ALBA. In New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. ALBA. January 20, 1931.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment at the present time?

Mr. ALBA. Crescent City Garage, auto garage.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you owner of the garage?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, part owner.

Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon?

Mr. ALBA. I am an officer in the garage.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you regularly located at the garage itself? Do you work out of the garage?

Mr. ALBA. No, right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right there?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of the garage?

Mr. ALBA. Auto storage garage primarily.

Mr. LIEBELER. The address of the garage is 618 Magazine Street?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is right next door to the William B. Reily Coffee Co.?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever become acquainted with or observe in your garage Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ALBA. Through conversations and Outdoor Life magazines in the office--I have a coffee pot there, and a coffee table, and some chairs, and a magazine rack, where he frequented the magazines quite often and drank coffee. And I have a coke machine there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this fellow, did you tell us what his name was?

Mr. ALBA. All I knew him was as "Lee."

Mr. LIEBELER. Just Lee?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a gun enthusiast, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that you kept in your office in the garage various magazines relating to outdoor life and guns?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss guns with you?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what he said, and what you said on the subject?

Mr. ALBA. He pursued the issue of ordering guns, and how many guns had I ever ordered, and how long did it take to get them, and where had I ordered guns from----

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead. What did you tell him? Just tell us the conversation that you had with him.

Mr. ALBA. I told him that I had a gun on order at the present time, a U.S. .30 caliber carbine, and he asked had I received the gun, on several occasions, after that. I told him no, that I hadn't. And he asked me would I consider selling him the gun if and when I got it. I told him no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything peculiar about this particular rifle that made Oswald want it? Or why did he want you to sell this rifle? Do you know?

Mr. ALBA. He told me he had a couple of guns, and he would like to have the carbine. He was familiar with the carbine from the service, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this was the regular M-1 carbine?

Mr. ALBA. Regular M-1 carbine, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From whom had you ordered that carbine? Do you recall?

Mr. ALBA. Through the National Rifle Association.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you what other kind of rifle or weapons that he had?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't. He did make a remark that he had--I think he said he had several rifles and several pistols, but he did not go into the nature of the arms, or how much, or what they were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any interest in any rifle that you indicated that you had, other than this M-1 carbine that you told him you had ordered?

Mr. ALBA. One 30.06 Springfield rifle that I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have that?

Mr. ALBA. I was in the process of sporterizing that at the garage at the time----

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that particular weapon?

Mr. ALBA. He said what was it worth to me, and I told him it was worth over $100 to me. There was no followup on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this particular rifle that you have referred to, a Japanese rifle?

Mr. ALBA. No; it wasn't. I had a Japanese rifle down there that was not for sale, and he was more partial to the Japanese rifle than the Springfield and the carbine put together.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was really interested----

Mr. ALBA. He was more interested in the Japanese rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you already sporterized that?

Mr. ALBA. That was completely sporterized.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do to a rifle when you sporterize it?

Mr. ALBA. Alter the stock, eliminate some of the weight, and the length of the stock, because it is a military piece to start with, and you glass-bead the stock.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what does that mean?

Mr. ALBA. To accurize the stock, and you put this where you have all metal to wood contact in the stock. It is referred to as accurizing, and sporterizing, and customizing a piece.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about this particular Japanese rifle?

Mr. ALBA. Nothing other than his desire to possess the gun, or to purchase the gun from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by an agent of the FBI?

Mr. ALBA. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times were you interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ALBA. Twice, I believe. Let me retract that--the FBI came to the office, I think, three different times. I was never up in their office or contacted----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this Japanese rifle with them?

Mr. ALBA. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall telling them that Oswald was interested in the number of inches that had been cut from the barrel of the gun?

Mr. ALBA. I believe I did; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what Oswald said about that?

Mr. ALBA. No; not other than a general discussion of the trajectory and the feet per second, and et cetera, and the general accuracy elimination--I mean elimination of the accuracy of the gun cutting the barrel off.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the effect of cutting the barrel?

Mr. ALBA. On the accuracy of a rifle; none.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Oswald that?

Mr. ALBA. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem surprised?

Mr. ALBA. Not that my memory would--if my memory would serve me correctly; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have a fairly good knowledge of a rifle?

Mr. ALBA. He did of the military pieces, the M-1 and the Garand. He was asking questions about the Japanese rifle and the Springfield, the 1903-A, the A-3 Springfield, inquiring questions about those pieces, but he seemed to have a very thorough knowledge of the M-1 and the Garand.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned two different rifles, or three different rifles that he showed a real familiarity with?

Mr. ALBA. Two.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the straight M-1 gas-operated rifle that has been used by the military services?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other was the Springfield?

Mr. ALBA. No, no; the other was the Garand M-1. The Garand M-1 and you have the M-1 carbine. Both are gas-operated.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those are the only two weapons that he showed any particular or real familiarity with, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he became familiar with these?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give it any thought as to how he became familiar with these weapons?

Mr. ALBA. Yes; I did. I assumed that was through the Armed Forces training.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you anything about that?

Mr. ALBA. No; he hadn't, other than he had the service behind him.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you what branch of the service he had been in?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Japanese rifle that you said you had completely sporterized, can you tell us approximately how long that weapon would be when it is put together?

Mr. ALBA. Prior to sporterizing or after sporterizing?

Mr. LIEBELER. Both?

Mr. ALBA. I took approximately 4 to 4-1/2 inches off of the barrel, and I think it was left with a 22-1/2-inch barrel, and it had approximately a 28- or a 29-inch barrel to start off with.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you fastened the barrel to the stock, can you tell us approximately how long that rifle would be?

Mr. ALBA. I can take a guess--I never really measured it, or any of my pieces, for that matter, but I would say approximately 55 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can these rifles be readily broken down, taking the stock and removing it from the barrel?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long would the stock be separate from the barrel in this Japanese rifle?

Mr. ALBA. From the butt of the stock to the extreme end of the forearm would be approximately 20 inches, I imagine, or about 2 feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say that the barrel was 22 inches long, do you mean that the entire length of the action and the barrel?

Mr. ALBA. The barrel only, from the breech to the muzzle.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long is the action?

Mr. ALBA. About 6 inches, 5 or 6 inches. You are asking me questions now that I have never pursued before for my own information and satisfaction. These are only approximate guesses.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the effect of sporterizing a rifle generally is to shorten the overall length of the rifle, is that not right, by removing a portion of the barrel itself?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct, and the weight.

Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to shortening the overall length of the rifle, also when you sporterize a rifle you shorten the stock itself so that when you break the rifle down into two pieces, the action and the barrel is one piece, and the stock the other piece, and the length of the rifle broken down, or the two pieces laid together, would be less also, isn't that correct?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because of the tendency to shorten the stock?

Mr. ALBA. But that is not the main motive behind it----

Mr. LIEBELER. No; the motive behind it is to reduce the weight of the rifle?

Mr. ALBA. The weight; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you whether the weapons that he had or weapon was a military piece, or whether it had been sporterized, or anything about it?

Mr. ALBA. If my memory serves me, he told me he had a few rifles and a few pistols, and never pursued the issue any further to name what they were or what they weren't. I don't know whether it is an assumption on my part or not, and if I am not mistaken he said they were military arms.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate whether he sporterized them or not?

Mr. ALBA. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display familiarity with the whole proposition of sporterizing a rifle?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display, or did you draw any conclusions as to whether he was familiar with this process or not?

Mr. ALBA. No. And yes; I would say that I had drawn an opinion that he was not familiar with the sporterizing of arms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations that you and Oswald had about rifles or weapons?

Mr. ALBA. None other than he asking permission to borrow some magazines from time to time. And as far as I knew, they were all returned.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of magazines were these?

Mr. ALBA. Outdoor Life and Field and Stream, Argosy, and hunting and fishing magazines, and National Rifle Association magazines. And guns and ammo magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever have discussions with you about the relative merits of a small calibre as opposed to large calibre bullets?

Mr. ALBA. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are very clear about that in your mind?

Mr. ALBA. We discussed the wounding effect of combat guns of the small calibre versus the large calibres, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?

Mr. ALBA. Well, the small calibre in the field would tend to disable a man and require two men to cart him off, versus the larger calibre which would knock out a man permanently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at an FBI report which indicates that on November 25, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. Lester G. Davis, and John William Miller----

Mr. ALBA. I remember that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the report indicates that you recalled an additional conversation that you had with Oswald in which you and Oswald discussed the merits of small calibres and larger calibre bullets, and the report said that you recall that Oswald mentioned that a small calibre bullet was more deadly than the larger one, to which point you agreed.

Mr. ALBA. Having been left with a wounding effect you would survive a larger calibre wound, your chances of survival from a larger or large calibre wound would be greater than the smaller calibre. We went into the discussion of basing the thing in the ice pick versus the bread knife--I don't think I mentioned this part to the FBI--reflecting on the whole picture that you would be better off receiving a wound from a 10-inch bread knife than you would be being gigged once with a 2- or 3-inch ice pick, and that reflecting the difference between the large calibre wound and the small calibre wound.

Mr. LIEBELER. What led you and Oswald to agree that you would be better off being hit with a bread knife than with the ice pick?

Mr. ALBA. Internal bleeding.

Mr. LIEBELER. There would be more internal bleeding from the ice pick?

Mr. ALBA. Small calibre or the ice pick; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you both agreed that the small calibre bullet would be more deadly than the larger one?

Mr. ALBA. Being left with a wounded effect; in other words, if it was my intention to destroy an animal I would prefer the large calibre, but if an animal was wounded with a large calibre, or a small calibre bullet, I would say that the smaller calibre bullet would be more deadly in the end than the large calibre wound, and he might survive the large calibre with an open wound.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the course of this conversation, did Oswald indicate in anyway whether the rifles that he had were large calibre or small calibre weapons?

Mr. ALBA. None other than the weapons were of the military, and I don't know--that part is an assumption on my part or whether he actually said it. He went to no length at all in discussing his firearms. In fact, it was my experience with Lee Oswald that you had to ask Lee Oswald questions. Either Lee Oswald was talking to you, or he wasn't talking at all. And I may have asked him what he had in the way of firearms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention that he had a pistol, or pistols?

Mr. ALBA. If I remember correctly, I think he said he had a few, or a couple, or two. I am not definite.

Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of pistols?

Mr. ALBA. Pistols--he said he had a few rifles, and a few pistols--or it was a couple, or it was two. I am not clear.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were discussing this question of whether or not Oswald had any pistols with the FBI, and do you remember discussing it?

Mr. ALBA. If I made any mention of it, I am sure it would be as I have just represented it to be. I have no recollection of my definite discussions with the FBI at the time. I do remember, however, meeting the gentlemen and discussing Lee Oswald with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald seemed more interested or was disposed more in favor of rifles than pistols? Or did he seem----

Mr. ALBA. Very definitely toward the rifle side.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was more interested in rifles?

Mr. ALBA. Very little interested in the pistols. I had as many as three or--I think at one time four pistols down there, and Lee Oswald was very, very keen toward the rifles that were among my sporterizing projects, and so on; other than the pistols, he had very, very little interest in the pistols.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you do the sporterizing work on these weapons right there in your garage?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct. And what I didn't do, I jobbed out, that is, I gave out to gunsmiths.

Mr. LIEBELER. To what?

Mr. ALBA. To a gunsmith.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had fired these rifles or this rifle that he owned?

Mr. ALBA. None other than to ask me if I knew of a place where you could discharge firearms, that is, close by, without getting in the car and riding for hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say when he asked you about that?

Mr. ALBA. My reply was that I joined the National Rifle Association, and I have been able to shoot on the rifle range. It had been some years since I had done any shooting along the River Road or the levy, or anything else like that, and that I am sure that if you attempted that today, they either would run you off or arrest you for discharging firearms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention specifically a rifle range where you had discharged your firearms?

Mr. ALBA. I believe I did, and I am sure that if I did I told him that he would have to be a member in order to be able to use the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. What range was it?

Mr. ALBA. Crescent Gun, Claiborne Avenue, owns the range, and if you are a National Rifle Association member, then you have the privileges of belonging to the rifle range across the river, which belongs to Crescent Gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate an intention to join the National Rifle Association?

Mr. ALBA. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this carbine that you had ordered from the National Rifle Association, you indicated that he had expressed an interest in buying that weapon from you? Is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. He had an interest very much, and after I told him that I wouldn't sell the gun, and I had mentioned that I was getting the gun for approximately $35 through the N.R.A., and that this same gun on the market would sell from $75 to $100, and he had made the expression that if and when "you get the carbine, should you decide to sell it, I would make it worthwhile for you to sell the gun."

Mr. LIEBELER. But he never spoke of joining the N.R.A. in order to obtain a carbine such as this himself?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you how much it cost to join the National Rifle Association?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell him?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much does it cost?

Mr. ALBA. $5.

Mr. LIEBELER. $5?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go through these various gun magazines and sporting magazines that Oswald had looked at? You went through them after the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. Had I gone through these magazines that Lee Oswald had borrowed from me?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ALBA. And had I gone through them since the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ALBA. Since the assassination the FBI and the secret service took the magazines off, and I have not received them since.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had read these magazines or gone through them prior to the time that Oswald looked at them?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left them in your office and Oswald borrowed some and brought them back?

Mr. ALBA. Well, we have a coffee urn and a coke machine and some chairs in there, and a coffee table, and on the coffee table I would say that I had approximately anywhere from 80 to 120 magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't go through them after the assassination and prior to the time that the FBI and the Secret Service removed them from your office?

Mr. ALBA. Would you repeat the----

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't go through any of these magazines that Oswald had looked at after the assassination and prior to the time that the FBI and the Secret Service had removed them from your office, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. None other than my most current issues that I had recently received in the mail, such as the National Rifle magazine or "Guns and Ammo" edition----

Mr. LIEBELER. Those magazines wouldn't have been at Lee Oswald's disposal because they would have come in after the time he had been there?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell whether or not the magazines that Oswald read, or borrowed and read and returned, were still there in the garage at the time of the assassination, or at the time the FBI came and took the magazines from you?

Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald borrowed the magazines and requested permission to take one or two off at a time, and kept them anywhere from 3 days to a week, and would make the point of letting me know that he was returning them. And then a few days later he would ask that he borrow another magazine or two magazines. I would say that there were anywhere from three to five definite occasions I do remember of Lee Oswald asking to take this and that magazine and letting me know that he returned the magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know there was nobody else that would have removed them from your office, and they would have stayed there after Oswald brought them back?

Mr. ALBA. Some of them do disappear from time to time.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no way of knowing whether all the ones that Oswald looked at were in your office when the FBI and the Secret Service came and picked them up?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the last time you saw Oswald?

Mr. ALBA. The last time I saw Lee Oswald was when he told me that he was leaving for Michoud. He had put in an application at Michoud, where he was going to make the big money, in this town here. He mentioned that prior or about 3 weeks prior to leaving.

When he did leave, he came in the office and he says, "Well--" this was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning, he said, "Well, I will be seeing you." I said, "Where are you headed?" He said, "Out there, where the gold is." I said, "Where is that?" He said, "I told you I was going out to Michoud, and that I had an application out there." He said, "Well, I have heard from them, and I have just wound up things next door at the coffee company, and I am on my way out there now." That again, was approximately--I may stand to be corrected on my timing--but that was approximately some weeks before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is this "Michoud" that he mentioned to you? How do you spell it?

Mr. ALBA. That's the national air space program, the rockets, out in Gentilly. That's NASA.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an operation do they have there? Is it a manufacturing operation?

Mr. ALBA. It is the rocket, the Atlas rocket, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. They construct them there, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of work he was going to do for the organization?

Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned "Michoud," and is that the name of a city here?

Mr. ALBA. Michoud, that's this particular section of Gentilly, Gentilly section, where the plant is located.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that part of New Orleans proper?

Mr. ALBA. It is part of New Orleans, part of Orleans Parish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Part of New Orleans itself?

Mr. ALBA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you what kind of work he was doing for Reily Co.?

Mr. ALBA. I don't think he ever did, but it was--it was obvious that he was in the electrical end of the maintenance end of the factory at W. B. Reily Coffee.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? Or why do you say it was obvious?

Mr. ALBA. He was just like the others there in the maintenance and the electrical end, and they would wear the electrician's belt with a bandoleer, screwdriver, pliers, and friction tape, et cetera.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he wear that?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this fellow Oswald with anybody at the Reily Co.?

Mr. ALBA. Not prior to the assassination, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with people at the Reily Co. after the assassination?

Mr. ALBA. Yes, I have. People were coming up to me at that time and asking me about what had happened to my friend Lee Oswald that used to hang around the office all the time, as an opening to discuss what had taken place in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember the name of the people at the coffee company that you discussed Oswald with?

Mr. ALBA. The people in general that would come in the office during the day, as Lee Oswald himself would do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the people that did come in that way indicate they also had known Oswald while he worked at the coffee company?

Mr. ALBA. I hadn't realized anyone that knew Lee Oswald, or that that was the man who worked with them prior to the assassination, but after the assassination, which might be expected, it seems that anyone you would talk to knew who he was and had seen him, and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any particular people who did, in fact, seem to know him, or that you think did know him that you talked to about him?

Mr. ALBA. None in particular, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the general substance of these conversations?

Mr. ALBA. Half kidding and half general conversations about, "Isn't it something, what happened?" And that it happened to be someone that was right here at work "With us at Reily, and that you knew from over here, next door."

Several people, employees at Reily, would tell me that employees at Reily had told them after the assassination, of course, that Lee Oswald spent as much time "Over at Alba's Garage as he did over here in the plant."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to be the case to you prior to the assassination?

Mr. ALBA. Yes and no; if that is any kind of an answer. Lee Oswald was sent for and called from the office on several occasions. Lee Oswald would come to the office, put a nickel in the coke machine and start paging through magazines and just lost track of time. Lee Oswald was not talkative unless he was more or less pursuing the conversation himself. In fact, if that makes any sense to you----

Mr. LIEBELER. So it seems to you then that he spent more time in your place than he should have been spending, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct, but certainly not more time at my place than at Reily Coffee, as some might have tried to indicate to me in a conversation. But I am sure that it was intended only as a phrase of kidding.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of complaints from the coffee company that Oswald wasn't on the job over there?

Mr. ALBA. None other than from the men themselves that were working with Lee Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. You heard these complaints after the assassination, is that correct, didn't you?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that he was called from your garage to go back to the coffee company from time to time?

Mr. ALBA. There were anywhere from two to four different occasions that I can remember that someone would come in there and tell him, "Now, Lee Oswald, they are looking for you over there. If you keep this up, you are going to get canned." And Oswald would say, "I'm coming. I'm coming."

Mr. LIEBELER. And then he would go back to the coffee company?

Mr. ALBA. He would.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did this fellow impress you?

Mr. ALBA. He certainly didn't impress me as anyone capable or anyone burdened with a charge of assassinating the President of the United States, let alone any individual, for that matter. Our conversations were purely the gun magazines, the firearms themselves, and little of anything else. Lee Oswald wasn't very talkative, not to be repeating myself, unless, of course, he was pretty much leading the conversation or doing the talking himself, on the same conversation level all the time--about the firearms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being peculiar in any way?

Mr. ALBA. Yes; he did. He was quiet.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was quiet?

Mr. ALBA. He was quiet. You could ask Lee Oswald two or three questions, and if Lee Oswald wasn't apparently interested in the course of the conversation, he would just remain paging through the book and look up and say, "Did you say something to me?" I hesitate putting the conversation back to Lee Oswald pursuing it first, but all you had to do was mention guns and gun magazines and Lee Oswald was very free with the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have an interest in firearms that was abnormal or extremely great, or anything like that?

Mr. ALBA. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than the fact that he was quiet, was there anything about him that struck you as being odd or peculiar?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't suspect he was a violent kind of person, or anything like that, the time that you knew him, did you?

Mr. ALBA. I would answer that indeed not. I had never gotten the impression from Lee Oswald that he was capable of any plot or assassination, or what have you, of that nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. And were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. ALBA. I was very much surprised.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard he had been charged with the assassination, did it seem to you then that he could have been capable of such a thing? Or did you hold to your former opinion?

Mr. ALBA. I think I held to my former opinion. Things I have seen on television, of course, and read in the newspapers, and so forth, has laid out some suggestive pattern that Lee Oswald was a subversive, et cetera, toward the country, and maybe even the President, or something; but prior to that assassination he gave me no indication at anytime that he was burdened with such a charge, or that he was concerned or involved with anything of that nature. He had never at anytime spoken against the President or the country. He had never at anytime, prior to the assassination, of course, mentioned communism to me, or anything suggestive or leading to it, or otherwise.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he mentioned the President at all, one way or another?

Mr. ALBA. I think I might answer that with a definite answer--I can't remember anytime that Lee Oswald had ever mentioned the President, the country, foreign countries, et cetera.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it customary, or the usual sort of thing for people in this area to discuss politics, or discuss the President? People that come into your garage or----

Mr. ALBA. Well, the usual trend of conversation in the garage, other than the garage business or the personal customers' cars or neighbors that walk in the garage that want change for the coke machine, et cetera, would be either politics--I would say mostly politics more than anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the attitude of most of the men toward President Kennedy? Was he well liked down here, or was he not highly thought of?

Mr. ALBA. He was very highly thought of for his convictions, for his stand on his convictions, but he wasn't too well thought of for his stand on the integration program to the South.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it common for the people to complain about that sort of thing?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never heard Oswald discuss that?

Mr. ALBA. Not once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he ever present when the subject was discussed by others, as far as you can recall?

Mr. ALBA. I really wouldn't know, or be able to comment whether he was or not. It's very possible that he was, and maybe on several occasions, but not to my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never responded in any way?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to show you some pictures that have been marked in other proceedings, five different pictures marked "Commission Exhibits 451, and 453 through 456," and ask you if you recognize the person or persons depicted in these pictures?

(Photographs shown to the witness.)

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-A," and ask you if you recognize any of the people on that picture?

Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald only. [Viewing photograph.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is he?

Mr. ALBA. Right here [indicating], and this looks like Jack Ruby [indicating], but I would only recognize him from the television pictures and pictures in the papers.

Mr LIEBELER. The picture that you indicated as being Oswald is the man marked with an "X" over his head, is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-B" and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. ALBA. Lee Oswald only. [Viewing photograph.]

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is the man marked with a "green mark," is that correct?

Mr. ALBA. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the street scene, by any chance?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if you recognize that man?

Mr. ALBA. That's Lee Harvey Oswald. [Viewing photograph.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you think that the Commission would be interested in that I haven't asked you about, concerning your knowledge of Oswald, and your relations with him?

Mr. ALBA. I wouldn't think. The source of conversations was of a nature of a neighborhood acquaintanceship, nothing more. He has never been suggestive toward any other things other than what I have already discussed with you, as far as his interest in guns and gun magazines and gun conversations.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated any interest in Cuba or Cuban affairs?

Mr. ALBA. Never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he had been arrested by the New Orleans Police Department in connection with the distribution of "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" literature in New Orleans?

Mr. ALBA. No; I hadn't, but I found out after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he appeared on WDSU television and debated with some Cubans? You don't know that?

Mr. ALBA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else, anything else you would like to add at this point, I have no further questions.

Mr. ALBA. I would feel free if there was, but I don't think there is anything further that I would like to add that can be of any help to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown.

Thank you very much.

AFFIDAVIT OF CHESTER ALLEN RIGGS, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Tarrant, ss:

Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., being duly sworn says:

1. I am Vice President of Orbit Industries, Inc., 250 Carroll, Fort Worth, Texas. I reside at 836 Edgefield in that city.

2. I am and have been prior to July 1 of 1962, the owner of a duplex house located at 2703 Mercedes Street, Fort Worth, Texas. That duplex contains two furnished apartments.

3. Sometime in July, 1962, I rented one of the apartment units to Lee Harvey Oswald. While I do not keep precise records of the tenants of the above apartments, since there is a fairly high rate of turnover amongst them, to the best of my recollection, Lee Oswald and his wife lived in the apartment from some time in July of 1962 until early October of that year.

4. I do not keep records of the rental payable on each of the apartments. My records reflect only the total rental paid on a number of apartments which I own in the vicinity of 2703 Mercedes Street. As a result I am not able to state precisely the rental which Lee Oswald paid for the above apartment, but my recollection is quite clear that it was $59.50 a month.

5. The utilities in the apartment are in my name and are not changed with the movement of tenants through the apartment. The tenants are, however, responsible for the payment of the utility bills. Whenever I receive a bill in respect to any of the apartments I forward it to the tenants for payment. I recall that the utilities in the apartment at 2703 Mercedes averaged about $12.00 a month during the time that it was occupied by the Oswalds. To the best of my knowledge Oswald paid those utility bills directly.

6. I recall that when Oswald rented the apartment he gave me the impression he would have no difficulty in handling the arrangements for the payment of the utilities and other incidental arrangements that had to be made in connection with his occupancy of the apartment.

7. To the best of my recollection Oswald did not have a telephone in the apartment.

8. Either at the time that Oswald rented the apartment or shortly thereafter, he asked me to install new curtains in the apartment, which I agreed to do. While I had no difficulty with Oswald in this connection he was quite definite in stating that he wanted the new curtains installed.

9. I subsequently called at the apartment to consult with Oswald or his wife concerning the color of the drapes or curtains to be installed in the apartment. Oswald was not present at the time and when I attempted to discuss the matter with his wife I could obtain no response from her. It appeared to me at the time that she was not interested in having the new curtains. Subsequently I have learned that Marina Oswald had a limited command of the English language and it now appears to me in fact that she simply did not understand what I was talking about.

10. Oswald never mentioned the new drapes or curtains after that time and they were never installed in the apartment while he lived there.

11. I do recall that when Oswald asked about the curtains I told him that I would be willing to install them if he was planning to stay in the apartment for some period of time. I mentioned this because, as I have said, there was quite a high rate of turnover amongst the tenants because of the nature of the housing, which was of a low-income type, and I did not want to put new curtains in and then have Oswald move out shortly thereafter. Oswald told me that he had a job with a welding company nearby and was planning to stay in the apartment for some time.

12. My own business office is located near the apartment at 2703 Mercedes Street and I recall seeing Oswald walk to work from the apartment. To the best of my knowledge Oswald did not have a car while he lived in the above apartment.

13. Oswald appeared to spend a considerable amount of time reading. From time to time I observed him doing that on the steps of the apartment and he was usually reading when I called at the apartment for the rent payment.

14. When Oswald moved out sometime early in October he owed some rent and had not completely paid for the utilities which he used. I do not recall exactly what the amount was but it was not very large.

15. The Oswalds left the apartment in good clean condition.

16. I do not know where Oswald moved after he left the apartment at 2703 Mercedes Street and I do not know where he lived prior to the time he moved there. There was no adverse condition in the relations between Oswald and myself which could have prompted Oswald to leave the apartment.

Signed on May 20, 1964, at Fort Worth, Tex.

(S) Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., CHESTER ALLEN RIGGS, Jr.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MAHLON F. TOBIAS

The testimony of Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, would you rise and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. M. F. Tobias?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Of 602 Elsbeth?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Dallas, Tex.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. What does that "M" stand for?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Mahlon [spelling] M-a-h-l-o-n, and the "F" is Forrest [spelling] F-o-r-r-e-s-t.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission. My file indicates that you and Mr. Tobias received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of this Commission?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we did.

Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission and of President Lyndon Johnson's Executive order creating the Commission, and also a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you have noted from those documents that the Commission is appointed to investigate and look into circumstances surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And this leads us from time to time to seek information and help from people who had some contact here and there with persons who went across the scene, so to speak, the stage--one of whom was Lee Harvey Oswald, and we understand that in the ordinary course of your own life you had some contact with him--you and Mr. Tobias.

Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right. We are managers of the apartment house--that's right.

Mr. JENNER. And we would like to ask you a few questions about that, if I may?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay; I will be glad to help you all I can.

Mr. JENNER. That is wonderful and I appreciate that very much. Would you give me just a little bit of your history?

Mrs. TOBIAS. My history--what do you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native American, and where were you born and so forth?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I was born in Arkansas. I have lived in Dallas, Tex., 12 years, but I have been all over the United States. I raised my family in Michigan. I married in Michigan.

Mr. JENNER. What town in Michigan?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Battle Creek--my husband is from Michigan and I went there as a bride and I raised my family in Michigan, and we have been back here 12 years. We have been in Dallas--back in Dallas about 12 years--well, we have been back about 14 years, but in Dallas, Tex., you mean, for 12 years.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband is retired now?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; my husband was in construction and during the war he worked for the government. We were just all over, but, of course, he broke his back--it will be 14 years ago in August, and he worked up until 5 years ago, so he had to give up 5 years ago, and he is on social security, of course, and that's why we manage these apartments.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been primarily a mother raising a brood of five boys and a housewife and also help your husband manage some apartments?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And in connection with the management of the apartments, is that how you had your contact with Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right--he had one of the apartments.

Mr. JENNER. Located where?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, he was in 604--602 and 604--just like--this is 604 over here and 602 is down here and there is one down and one up. Mr. Oswald lived in 604 and we live over here in 602 and it faces Elsbeth. Do you want a description of it?

Mr. JENNER. Let me get a piece of paper and let's draw a picture of it so I can orient myself.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Are you familiar with those apartments?

Mr. JENNER. No; I'm not, I don't know a thing about them.

Mrs. TOBIAS. We'll say now that this is Elsbeth--this side runs down like this and then across.

Mr. JENNER. Which is north and which is south?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Let's see--this is west.

Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Let me see now, I want to make sure--there is West Davis, but we are just on the corner of West Davis and Elsbeth, you see, that would be west, wouldn't it, still--I don't know my directions.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will do it this way--is this Elsbeth [referring to map drawn by the witness]?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This is Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. All right, write Elsbeth in there.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right. [Spelling] E-l-s-b-e-t-h, and this is--Elsbeth and that side over here is Davis.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where is Davis Street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be Davis right there.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you draw a line there for Davis?

Mrs. TOBIAS. There's one apartment down and one up over that one--this would be Davis over here.

Mr. JENNER. All right, write "Davis" there.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right--right here is Davis. Now, Davis faces west, so what would this direction be--this is direct west and east--Davis is.

Mr. JENNER. Davis runs east and west?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--east and west--and let me see--Elsbeth would be north and south, wouldn't it?

Mr. JENNER. That's right.

All right, let's put the directions on here--put an "N" up here and an "S" down at the bottom.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right; I will put an "N" and an "S" down here.

Mr. JENNER. And then put an "E" for east and a "W" to your right for west, and the "E" is to your left.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. Now, how many apartments do you have in this building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten.

Mr. JENNER. There are 10 apartments?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what are they--two-room, three-room, four-room?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Three.

Mr. JENNER. They are a three-room apartment and they are all three-room apartments?

Mrs. TOBIAS. All three room.

Mr. JENNER. And you and Mr. Tobias occupy one?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we do--we have apartment 7 over here on Davis. You see, we live on Davis and this is Davis, like I drew it out here, you see, and we live on Davis. He lived over here--he lived over here at 602, and do you want me to put 602 there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; put 602 there--is it 602 Davis?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it's Elsbeth, but--shall I mark that out--this side is 602 over here, and this is 604 over here.

Mr. JENNER. All right, put the 604 right under the apartment No. 2.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you want me to strike over that?

Mr. JENNER. No; no, you are fine--604 is an entrance into apartment 604, is that right?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And they occupied apartment 604?

Mrs. TOBIAS. They had No. 2 right on the front.

Mr. JENNER. They had two apartments?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; No. 2.

Mr. JENNER. All right, No. 2, right on the front.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Right on the front.

Mr. JENNER. That's Elsbeth Street, and is that the first floor or the second floor?

Mrs. TOBIAS. First--apartment 2 is downstairs and ours is the same across the front on the ground.

Mr. JENNER. Is yours on the first floor also?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many floors in this building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Two floors--this one has one down and one up--you see, one comes down like this and one is up like this.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "one down and one up"?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you see, up over these now, this is a 2-story building.

Mr. JENNER. There are apartments above each of the apartments Nos. 602 and 604?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. That is not true at the opposite end, the west end?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Here, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. This one right here is No. 6 and over it is No. 10. Do you know what I am talking about?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I will figure it out in a minute. I take it the entrances to the apartment building are on Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And there are some apartments in the rear that go all the way through, do they?

Mrs. TOBIAS. We have a back entrance and a front entrance. Now, my back entrance goes out on Davis and my front entrance comes out into this patio, and also would Mr. Oswald's come out into the patio.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I am interested in that.

Mrs. TOBIAS. He has two entrances, remember now, that he could use.

Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what we will do--I'm going to mark this "Tobias."

May the record show that Mrs. Tobias has been drawing a plat of the apartment building on Elsbeth Street which I have now marked "Tobias--No. 1."

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--okay.

Mr. JENNER. Now, she has drawn a rectangle, and the north side is Davis Street, the east side of the rectangle is Elsbeth Street. Now, Mrs. Tobias, you correct me if I am wrong.

Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be south, wouldn't it--yes--that would be south--he lived on this south side.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias is pointing to the area of the plat which is marked "S" or the side opposite to that which is marked "N."

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The figure 604 underneath the word "Elsbeth" appearing on the east line of the rectangle is the apartment occupied by the Oswalds.

Mrs. TOBIAS. 604--apartment 2.

Mr. JENNER. Apartment 2.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was on the ground floor?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that's on the southeast corner of the building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you live in a similar three-room apartment on the northeast corner of the building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--602--that's right.

Mr. JENNER. So, we will draw a little square in there, representing those apartments.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there are altogether how many apartments in the building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten.

Mr. JENNER. I'm going to write 10 apartments on there.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, those apartments run back from interiors, or one after another, back from Elsbeth Street.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. They have front entrances and rear entrances?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance to your apartment is from Davis Street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Davis Street; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance from the Oswald apartment is from where?

Mrs. TOBIAS. From the driveway, and that would be south, wouldn't it?

Mr. JENNER. There is a driveway that runs along this way [indicating]?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. It's a private driveway?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, it is; it's private, it goes to the apartments.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we'll call that "private driveway."

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right, and they are not allowed to park, you know, for any length of time--just for moving in and moving out, and here is a back door out here that is into that driveway.

Mr. JENNER. So, his rear entrance was from the driveway?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Which I have so marked.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you spoke of a court, did you not?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, I didn't--I said a patio.

Mr. JENNER. A patio?

Mrs. TOBIAS. A patio--in between--this side and this side (indicating).

Mr. JENNER. In between the south side and the north side?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. We call it a patio, you know, there is a front entrance with each having their own and then, of course, we have cement there in that entrance and there's lots of shrubbery.

Mr. JENNER. Is this open to the sky?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; oh, sure, it's open. These buildings are all solid, what I mean, there is nothing like--what do you call these--a breezeway--there's nothing like that. It's just open in between 604 and 602, if I am making it clear?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, you are. Between your apartment on the north side of the building and their apartment on the south side--it is open?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. There is no roof over that area?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; there isn't.

Mr. JENNER. And you call that a patio?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that's what they call it--I guess that's what it is. I think it is a patio.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just trying to locate it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's what it's called--a patio.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, I'm not trying to make any comment about it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's what they do call it, though.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we'll call it a patio--does the patio run from where?

Mrs. TOBIAS. From Elsbeth back to this.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will make that a dotted line--back to the rear of the building, which is the west end of the building, correct?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Right. Now, there is no entrance for them to go out here. They got out over here--they come out into the hallway and into 602, and then, they have a back entrance. This one apartment--there's a back entrance only for that No. 10--no one else has a private but that No. 10.

Mr. JENNER. How private is that patio?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's just an entrance leading out to each house--an entrance.

Mr. JENNER. If a man were in that patio with a firearm or a weapon or a rifle and he were dry sighting--do you know what that is--dry shooting it?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. That is, holding it up, not loaded, but practicing the trigger and sighting, and what not, would he be noticed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's visible--that's what you meant?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. There's an awful lot of shrubbery out there in front of our window, the front window, and also--there's just an awful lot of shrubbery. It would be noticeable--sure, if you were up in the front, you would see it, but sad to say, I don't see very much from my front window because it's just loaded with shrubbery and the trees are quite tall--quite high.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this patio area which runs the length of the building from Elsbeth Street back west--that is an open space and it's open right up to the sky?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. During any of the time that the Oswalds occupied Apartment 604 and were your tenants, did you ever see Mr. Oswald in the patio area with a weapon?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. A firearm?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I haven't.

Mr. JENNER. Whether in the patio or elsewhere?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him appear out there--I never seen him with any gun.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he had one while he was there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I didn't. I didn't hear that. I suppose we would have been real frightened, but we didn't--he did have an awful lot of trouble with his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Now, it is true, then I gather, from that chance remark that you made that if you saw him with a weapon that would have alarmed you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I think it would have because he was kind of an odd kind of a person.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you in the office when that apartment was rented, did you have the first contact with him?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came in our house.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you tell me about that?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the night he came over to rent the place----

Mr. JENNER. It was at night?

Mrs. TOBIAS. In the evening--yes, and then he didn't take it, but he wanted to look around. He asked my husband if he might look around.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband was home?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were home?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was in the evening?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody accompanying him?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; just Oswald, my husband and I.

Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he always seemed to wear slacks and just a T-shirt.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that on this occasion he was so dressed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Just a jacket and slacks and I just can't remember if he had on a T-shirt or if he had on a sports shirt or a dress shirt that night, but he wanted to see the apartment. My husband took him over, because we don't like to rent the apartments in the evening--we don't have to, but just a lot of times my husband will go ahead and show them, because they said we don't have to after 8:30 or 9 o'clock. My husband took him over and showed him the apartment and then he asked my husband if he could look around and my husband said, "sure."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald wanted to look around the apartment or look around the building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He wanted to look around the building. He wanted to go around the building. So, he looked at the back entrance, the way he could get out the back entrance--now, that back entrance will go out, like I told you, this driveway--it will take you out onto Davis.

Mr. JENNER. The back entrance?

Mrs. TOBIAS. The side entrance--his side entrance, we'll say.

Mr. JENNER. He was looking at the back entrance of his apartment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, he went all through the back.

Mr. JENNER. His apartment, which came in from the driveway?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This is a driveway and down here in the hallway is the door. He wanted to see around in the back, he wanted to see the arrangement of the building, and how it was. There is a driveway that comes up off of Davis and back in here of the slab that they can park on. Of course, Mr. Oswald never had a car, and it just goes off onto Davis, but that is that driveway where I told you--this driveway goes all the way around onto Davis.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the driveway, which up to the moment I have limited from Elsbeth Street--it turns and goes out into Davis?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right. The driveway completely goes around.

Mr. JENNER. I'm going to mark the west end of the driveway also--is that correct?

Mrs. TOBIAS. The driveway goes out into Davis--that's correct. So, it was a week later before he came back to rent it.

Mr. JENNER. He waited a week?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You told him what the cost was?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, my husband told him that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about money at that time--did you make any inquiry as to whether or not he was working, where he worked?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; Mr. Oswald was very quiet. He had very little to say, so when he came back, he told my husband he had a wife and child.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, I was there when he rented it.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there when he made this statement that he had a wife and child?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, and when they came in--I didn't see anyone for quite some time, perhaps 10 days or 2 weeks, and I said to my husband, "I thought he told us he had a wife and child?" He said, "Well, he did."

We don't know when he moved in because he could have used that driveway to the back door--you understand what I mean?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. And then, I suppose it was about 2 weeks and then he got a phone call.

Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me, I would like to stay with a few of your earlier statements at the moment.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right.

Mr. JENNER. When he first came and made the inquiry about the apartment and made this short tour around the place--it was at night?

Mrs. TOBIAS. When he wanted to see the back door.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about his prior history then, whether he was married, not married, whether he had children--whether he had been?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, he had a wife and a little girl. That's all we ever learned. We didn't know whether they came from Fort Worth or anywhere. We didn't know where he came from because he was very quiet mouthed.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you ask about whether he was working? Whether he had some money that he could pay the rent with?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I tell you what--there is a card--the FBI picked the card up sometime ago, but they got to fill this rental card out and he is supposed, my husband slipped up on that, to give reference of where he has last worked and where his business place is, and so all he put on there was Service.

Mr. JENNER. Meaning military service?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't know--that's all they had--"Service".

Mr. JENNER. Just the one word "Service"?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Just the one word "Service" and he signed it and then, of course, he slipped up on that--of course, we didn't have any idea there was anything like this.

Mr. JENNER. Of course not.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Like--since that happened, the people that own it have asked my husband to make sure that he examines those cards and then make them give a signature over on the side.

All Oswald did was just to give his, fill it in like it should have been filled in, and sign it and that's all he put. And they picked that card up some time ago.

Mr. JENNER. The FBI did?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, we had to sign it, my husband and I had to release it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's all right.

Mrs. TOBIAS. They picked that up some time ago and now that's where we slipped up, and that's all we ever knew, and I never knew where he worked.

Mr. JENNER. He moved in in due course?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he moved in.

Mr. JENNER. About how long after he had made this initial inquiry?

Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean before he came in?

Mr. JENNER. He came in on what date?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the 3d of November--here's the books when you get ready for them--he moved in November 3, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. He moved in the 3d of November 1962?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes: but let me say--he rented it November 3--that's the day he paid his first rent and as we said, we never knew when he moved in.

Mr. JENNER. When he paid his rent, that was about a week after this initial incident, was it not?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; you mean to look around?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. He looked around a week before he came back and rented it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; so that he was there November the 3d and that would be approximately a week--that would make it the 26th of October?

Mrs. TOBIAS. When he was there the first time--it would have been, because it was close to a week before he came back.

Mr. JENNER. November 3 would be a Saturday and if it was about a week, then the previous occasion was on a Saturday.

Mrs. TOBIAS. When he rented it, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. No; when he first came to talk to you.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I just don't remember--really to tell you the truth.

Mr. JENNER. It was about a week?

Mrs. TOBIAS. It was--it was a week in between--a week elapsed there before he came back.

Mr. JENNER. Did he leave a deposit on that occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; a $5 deposit for the key, which we asked to be deposited and he did; you mean on the apartment when he left, when he moved out?

Mr. JENNER. No, no.

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he didn't that time.

Mr. JENNER. When he rented the apartment, did he make an advance payment of rent or did he make a deposit?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; when he came back the 3d of November he paid a month's rent and which would have been a $5 deposit--$68 for the month and the $5 deposit.

Mr. JENNER. Or $73 altogether?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I thought you meant did he ask for his deposit back--he never.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I will get to that in a minute.

Mrs. TOBIAS. I was getting mixed up--excuse me.

Mr. JENNER. No; you weren't mixed up. They moved in--you don't know when they moved in?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I honestly don't, and my husband said he didn't either, but they could use that side.

Mr. JENNER. The driveway?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; they could have pulled the car in there.

Mr. JENNER. Eventually you became aware that they were in the apartment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; because after--we got a phone call. I didn't even know she was up there then, because she hadn't started coming out until they got this phone call.

Do you want me to tell you about that?

Mr. JENNER. Was that the first thing that aroused your attention of the fact that they were there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Of her and the child--no, I had seen Oswald, I think, in and out, but he just went real fast, but like I said, Mrs. Oswald didn't appear. It must have been maybe a week or 10 days before I had seen Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. A week or 10 days after you saw him--after they moved in?

Mrs. TOBIAS. After he rented that; yes.

Mr. JENNER. He received a telephone call?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and I answered the phone and they wanted to talk with Mr. Oswald, and I said, "Well, I'm sorry but we don't make it a habit of calling our tenants to the phone." He said, "Well, this is very important--I would like to get ahold of Mr. Oswald." I said, "Would you like to give me a number?" He said, "Just tell him George called and they will know what you are talking about."

Mr. JENNER. He said, "Just tell him George called"?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and my husband went over and got them--he thought, well maybe he should go get them.

Mr. JENNER. Did this man have an accent?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he didn't talk like a southerner, I tell you that, because there's a difference there, isn't there? Anyway, when he came--let me tell you this--she came with him and he used the phone.

Mr. JENNER. You advised Oswald that a call had been received?

Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband went and told him.

Mr. JENNER. The man was named George?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Then, he wanted to come back and use the phone.

Mr. JENNER. He did come back and use the phone?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came back and wanted to know if he could use the phone.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Mrs. Oswald came with him.

Mr. JENNER. Had you met her before?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I hadn't--that's what I started to tell you.

Mr. JENNER. Had your husband?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he said that was the first he had seen of Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. What did she look like?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I think she was real cute then, of course, she had that pony tail and she wasn't fixed up in those days.

Mr. JENNER. She had a pony tail?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; she had long hair pulled back and she was very plain. I have seen pictures of her now since and she is really different.

Mr. JENNER. She has a different hairdo now?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she's real cute now. Anyway, he talked.

Mr. JENNER. On the telephone?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and he didn't talk in English at all.

Mr. JENNER. He talked in Russian over the telephone?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't know what it was but they never spoke a word of English.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that he was calling the man who had called in and asked your husband to tell Oswald that George had called?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He just said to me--I was the one that answered my phone and I sent my husband over with the message and when he came back--when he called he did not talk in English--he never spoke a word in English, he did not, not one--Mr. Oswald didn't.

Mr. JENNER. You mean on this occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. At this time.

Mr. JENNER. Over the telephone?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Over the telephone that very time that my husband went over.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She got on the phone later and said something, but she spoke in another, you know, a foreign language.

Mr. JENNER. She also spoke in a foreign language?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She didn't speak in English, no. Well, she went home----

Mr. JENNER. Before we got home with her--were you introduced to her on that occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He didn't introduce her at all--you mean Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No--I was going to tell you what happened. After she went home, I said, to Mr. Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Would you wait a minute?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything to you while she was in your apartment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Just smiled.

Mr. JENNER. She just smiled?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all--when she came in she just smiled.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say, "This is my wife?"

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't introduce her at all?

Mrs. TOBIAS. They just wanted to use the phone.

Mr. JENNER. She was neatly dressed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she was a nice young lady and you had a good impression of her?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She was always very nice.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you go ahead.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she went back home and I had visions that she went to see about the youngster.

Mr. JENNER. She went back to the apartment and he stayed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--I said to him, "What nationality are you folks?" Because I knew he had talked to us in English. He said, "Oh, we are Czech."

Mr. JENNER. He said they were Czech?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; so that's all I got out of him that night--just Czech and when she came back she smiled again real cute and nice, but she never ever, ever made any effort to talk around him whatsoever, and that's what I found out that night.

Mr. JENNER. And during all the time they were tenants in the apartment at 604 Elsbeth, did she ever use English at all in his presence while you were present?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Not to my knowledge--no, but when she came back--he called--he made another call and it was the same thing.

Mr. JENNER. He spoke in a foreign tongue?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. On the second occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--he didn't use English.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak to that person also?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, if it's the one that called, she did, she talked for a second.

Mr. JENNER. You have told me that she talked at the time of the first telephone call?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--no; not the second time, I don't think she talked the second time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I'll ask you some technical things--was he a good tenant in the sense that he paid his rent?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he paid his rent in advance.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pay it promptly?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; now, you'll have to look here--my husband has got all that marked--later you can see that, but the last month----

Mr. JENNER. Which was when?

Mr. TOBIAS. It would have been--he paid--he moved in November--December, January, February, and he stayed until March the 3d.

Mr. JENNER. March the 3d, 1963?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right and then he lacked, I think, $8 because I have heard him check it so many times.

Mr. JENNER. He lacked $8?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I think that is what it is--I would have to look in here. My husband has it marked.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and look. When you say you are looking in here--you are looking in your records of receipts?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That's your original record?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; this is the first one.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--may I ask you a few questions about that--you keep a record of all receipts?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; we have one--they get one and the owner gets one.

Mr. JENNER. When a rent payment is made, you make an entry in the book you have before you of having received a certain amount of money. It's in duplicate or triplicate--the tenant gets a copy of the receipt, you retain one in your book and you send one to the owners of the building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she gets the name of it and I think this is the other one--my husband has it marked here, so that every time they would come out they would have a lot of trouble looking and let me see, now--yes, he paid--he lacked $8--the balance.

Mr. JENNER. Explain to me what you mean by his lacking a balance?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he paid the $68 when he came at the regular date, and then the 8th--that would be the 2d and the 8th he came back and paid the other $8 and here is the beginning--if you would like to check them.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, is what you mean is that for the month of February, he paid first $60?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--right.

Mr. JENNER. So, he was $8 in arrears at that time?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he made that up--he paid the $8 at a later date?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that's the receipt there.

Mr. JENNER. In fact, on the 8th of February 1963?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. That's receipt number 7611, which I have before me, is the receipt which you gave for that final payment--the second installment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the initial receipt, do you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. The beginning--you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; here's where--when he moved in up here.

Mr. JENNER. And that is receipt number 0125, it is dated November 3, 1962, and it recites that it was received from Lee Oswald--the amount of $5, and that's the deposit?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that's the deposit.

Mr. JENNER. On number 2--that means apartment number 2 at that entrance--604?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I see here a second receipt dated the same date number 0126, in the sum of $17, apartment 2, marked "void." What was the circumstance on that receipt being marked "void?"

Mrs. TOBIAS. Let me see--then you have another one?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband perhaps thought he was going to be paid by the week and that's why he voided that one.

Mr. JENNER. And that was voided on the same occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--a lot of them pay by the week, you see?

Mr. JENNER. Ascertaining that he was going to pay by the month, a third receipt was made out, number 0127 in the name of L. H. Oswald for $68?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So, at this moment, he has now paid $68 plus $5 deposit?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. So, his payment is altogether $73?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the $5 deposit is for what?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that's the key deposit.

Mr. JENNER. And when the tenant surrenders the key, he gets his $5 back?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, if they leave the apartment clean or half way decent, she will refund it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in your record here that you keep, this is kept in the usual, regular and ordinary course of business?

Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean--my husband keeps this--we keep these books.

Mr. JENNER. You keep these books regularly?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they are your permanent records?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right--we have them from the time we moved in.

Mr. JENNER. And these entries are all true and correct?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And they are entries of receipts of rental payments for your tenants, including Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. The first of those payments consists of the ones I have recited on the 3d of November 1962, and the last of which was the $8 payment on February 8, 1963?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct--that's the last one.

Mr. JENNER. That paid his rent for the month of March?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Through the 3d or to the 3d.

Mr. JENNER. It paid it for the month of February and to and including the 3d day of March 1963?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he vacate the premises on the 3d of March?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did. He moved out and that was on a Sunday that he moved out and we note when he moved out.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mrs. TOBIAS. They moved on this baby stroller. We thought that was so funny, because they just--now, you see, you perhaps have already talked to these people where they moved over on Neely.

Mr. JENNER. They moved to where from your place?

Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--like this is Elsbeth, right down here on the corner----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, why don't we use our little plat here, Tobias Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This is his apartment--right down here on Neely Street.

Mr. JENNER. On what street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. On Neely--now, this is Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. And Neely also runs north and south?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--no; wait a minute, it runs east and west. Well, it's right behind an apartment building on Elsbeth, just one building behind that apartment building on Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. About how far away from where you are?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, it wouldn't be a block, it wouldn't be a good block--probably about half a block.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation with you or your husband as to why they were moving?

Mrs. TOBIAS. May I tell you?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they fought so much.

Mr. JENNER. They fought so much.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--they seemed to disagree and they didn't get along so good and the tenants would come and tell my husband that they kept them awake and the baby cried so much and that he could hear them falling down as if Mrs. Oswald was hitting the floor, so my husband went over and he said he was sorry but there was nothing going on and that everything was okay and we had one tenant over him--nobody has been able to contact her either--and she came over, and she said, "Mr. Tobias, I think he has made a new opening down there." She said, "I think he's put her right through there." And he did break a window--my husband had to fix that.

Mr. JENNER. This was a pane of glass in the back door?

Mrs. TOBIAS. In there--going out into the hall, out of their back kitchen, going into that little hall going outside.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband ascertained what?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He had to put in a new pane.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they knocked it out--I guess from fighting--we don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You weren't there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. And your husband wasn't there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. They had come after us----

Mr. JENNER. You mean the tenants had come after you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they said they could hear glass falling and evidently they had put a baby blanket there--a baby blanket was all over it, tacked down over the window.

Mr. JENNER. The pane of glass in the door was broken and they had tacked a baby blanket over the broken glass?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, all the way around it--they had quite a large blanket and they put that around it, so my husband told them if they didn't straighten up or, you know, they were so annoying that the other people had to rest too, that he was sorry but they would have to find another place.

Mr. JENNER. And it was shortly after that that they left?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; shortly after that they moved in over on Neely.

Mr. JENNER. During this period that they lived there from the 3d of November 1962, to the 3d of March 1963, did you become better acquainted with Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. Now, Mrs. Oswald would come in my house quite frequently.

Mr. JENNER. She would?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she seemed very lonesome, and she would be standing out in the patio we were talking about, and right up at my walkway into the hallway, and I asked her if she didn't want to come in and she would say "Yes," and so she and the baby came in, but she always would just smile.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak with you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I was going to tell you--the first time she came in I said, "Your husband says you are Czech," and she began to shake her head--no.

Mr. JENNER. She shook her head in the negative?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "No," and then she told me that.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She said she was Russian.

Mr. JENNER. She said that in Russian?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she said that in English, but she said, "My husband said it was bad and my husband told me if I said I was Russian people would be mean to me."

Mr. JENNER. She made it known to you with her limited command of English--she said what you have now related?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh--yes; she said it. I understood her real well.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mrs. TOBIAS. And she said, "My husband thinks people will be mean to me," and I said, "Nobody will be mean to you," and I said, "You are always welcome to come into my house." I am always nice to the tenants, but I don't run back and forth, but I try to be nice to them. A lot of them do seem lonesome when they come in. She came in lots of afternoons and would just set this little girl down on the floor and she was 9 months old when they moved in there and she would crawl around over on the rug and she would stay in there sometimes an hour, and she did that lots of afternoons--just lots of afternoons she would come up.

Mr. JENNER. And during that--with all of this period of time, you had many opportunities to observe her?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and then she came in the evening and wanted to know if she could use the phone. She said, "I don't know where my husband is." She told me that.

Mr. JENNER. About when was that?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, that was just maybe a short time before they moved out of there--that could have been a short time, because they weren't there too much longer after that. It was in the evening and I had such a hard time talking to her myself, it seemed to be harder for her to grasp or to understand English than it was for me to her, so I said to her, "Mrs. Oswald, Marina, can you read English?" She said "Yes"--and I went and got a tablet of paper.

Mr. JENNER. You got a tablet?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I did. I went over to the desk and I got a tablet and on this sheet of paper, you know, I took a pencil and I put on there, "When he gets home give him a good kick in the shin." And she just started laughing. She read that--she could read that, and she read that, and she thought that was real funny, and she said she would, so she came back the second time.

Mr. JENNER. That evening?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--she never did find him. She called--she must have called lots of places, but, of course, spoke not in English.

Mr. JENNER. When she made these telephone calls, she always spoke in the foreign language?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She never spoke in English.

Mr. JENNER. You never heard her use English over the telephone?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; only when she would try to talk to me and I would see Mrs. Oswald every day. She would have a handwashing, you know, and there were lines in the back.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of housekeeper was she?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I never was in there but once, and I'll tell you why I was in there then--this fellow came over and he said to my husband, "I think that he's really hurt her this time."

Mr. JENNER. Now, this was another tenant?

Mrs. TOBIAS. A tenant--yes, and we didn't hear her and I didn't see her out at the clothesline, and my husband said, "Why don't you and I go over and rap on the door and see if she will come to the door and see if she's okay." He said, "We can tell her that the sweeper is over here--she hasn't found the sweeper--she doesn't know anything about it."

Mr. JENNER. That would be the sweeper to use in the apartments?

Mrs. TOBIAS. A vacuum sweeper.

Mr. JENNER. I take it this was sometime in 1962?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; because that could have been sometime in December, but I just don't have no dates. That's the worst part of it. If we had had any idea--but anyway, she came to the door and she had her housecoat on and she had marks on her face.

Mr. JENNER. Where--what portion--the left cheek or the right cheek?

Mrs. TOBIAS. It would be like this [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. That's her right cheek?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was facing me.

Mr. JENNER. Up near her eye?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes. And her eye was dark and we told her that--we spoke to her.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. TOBIAS. We told her what we had come for, that over in the other building in the closets there was this vacuum cleaner and if she ever wanted to use it, she could come over and my husband told her--he said, "If you don't know where it is, come to my door and I will show you."

Mr. JENNER. Did she understand what you were saying?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, she did. She understood--we made her understand, so I don't know when they came for the sweeper, but they always would come together and get that sweeper--you could hear them in the hall--they were right at my door. He would always come with her when she come to get the sweeper. He never seemed to want that woman to be out of his sight when he was around, but that's the only marks. Now, she seemed to be okay and I just looked in her door--I never was in her house.

Mr. JENNER. How did you find her apartment on that look in?

Mrs. TOBIAS. My husband doesn't clean--he said it wasn't very clean.

Mr. JENNER. It was not?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Not too clean, my husband said it wasn't too clean.

Mr. JENNER. And was there anything out of the ordinary? I assume tenants leave your premises and the apartments are not too clean, and this is not an extraordinary experience, is it?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it's just not picked up and cleaned up and swept up like it should be. We require them to use the vacuum and leave it like they find it.

Mr. JENNER. But there was nothing in the way of broken furniture or gouged out walls?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, just that door.

Mr. JENNER. Just the pane in the door?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; that pane in the back door had to be replaced.

Mr. JENNER. Did this man drive an automobile?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, he didn't own one while he was there?

Mr. JENNER. Did he drive one?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him with one.

Mr. JENNER. You never saw him drive one in your life?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I never saw him drive an automobile in my life. He was always walking when I've seen him and they would go for a walk and maybe for groceries, and she would always be carrying that baby. He never carried that baby. She would always carry that child. That baby was real frightened. Now, my husband is just real fond of children and they take up with my husband real easy, but this child was always too frightened and it always seemed to be so frightened and never seemed to want anyone near it. It always seemed to be such a frightened child.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Oswald occupy this apartment with her husband during all the period, November 3, 1962, to and including March 3, 1963?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well--do you want me to tell you something that happened?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. We had gone out for a ride on a Sunday afternoon and when we came back, there was a car in the driveway.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, this is Mr. Davis from the State of Texas attorney general's office.

Mr. DAVIS. How are you--nice to see you.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. Now, go right ahead.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, when we came up----

Mr. JENNER. This was on Sunday?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Sunday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. How long after they moved in?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I just don't know--but that's what I told those gentlemen, but it was before my husband was in that accident, I know.

Mr. JENNER. And your husband was in the accident when?

Mrs. TOBIAS. The 27th.

Mr. JENNER. Of what month?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Of November--the same month he moved in, because we still was driving our car, and our car was wrecked.

Mr. JENNER. So, this occurred to the best of your recollection shortly before the accident?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it would occur between the 3d and the 27th, because my husband had his accident on the 27th.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's over 3 weeks--was it at the tail end of the three weeks or the forepart of it?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't remember that--I really don't.

Mr. JENNER. They had been in the apartment for awhile?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, and here is Elsbeth and we parked here----

Mr. JENNER. The witness is again referring to the Tobias Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. TOBIAS. We parked here.

Mr. JENNER. You parked on Elsbeth Street?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, we don't have garages, so we just parked around over here, and over here in this driveway was this big convertible.

Mr. JENNER. There was a convertible in the driveway which is located to the rear of the Oswald apartment--you saw a convertible--what kind was it--are you familiar with automobiles?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't drive--my husband and I have a different opinion on that, too.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband see it on that occasion?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well he did--he said he had seen it, but I thought it was a light car, a cream color.

Mr. JENNER. A cream-colored car?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I thought it was.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a sedan, two-door or four-door?

Mrs. TOBIAS. It was a convertible is what it was with the top back--the top was back and there was a baby bed in that convertible and then there was some clothing in there, and when we stopped up there, I said to my husband, "I think someone is moving out." Now, he went over home--I thought he did and I said, "I think I'll go over and check."

Mr. JENNER. Did you do so?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I walked in the hallway and as I walked in the hallway a fellow came out----

Mr. JENNER. What did he look like?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have a different opinion on that.

Mr. JENNER. I just want your view.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he was a pretty-good-sized fellow--he was larger than Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. A big man?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He was larger than Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. What would you say he weighed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I'm poor judging that, too.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm going to stand up. I'm 5 foot 11 inches and I weigh about 153 pounds.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been a little heavier than you.

Mr. JENNER. A little taller?

Mrs. TOBIAS. He could have been a little taller and a little heavier.

Mr. JENNER. As tall as 6 foot 6?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I doubt if he was--you are how much--5 what?

Mr. JENNER. I am 5 feet 11 inches--one inch shorter than 6 feet.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he could have been right around there.

Mr. JENNER. But heavier than I am?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I believe he was heavier than you.

Mr. JENNER. What color hair did he have?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he had dark hair--kind of brown, I guess, and when I walked in the hallway, he walked out. I said, "What's coming off?" He said, "Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--or moving out" or something like that--that's the way he said it.

Mr. JENNER. How old was this man?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Gee, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. What is your judgment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, perhaps 50--50 I would say or even in his late fifties.

Mr. JENNER. Well, 50 and late fifties is a big difference.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, maybe he was a little over 50 and maybe he was right around 50--he wasn't an old man.

Mr. JENNER. He was 50 more or less?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--it would have been--that's what I thought.

Mr. JENNER. All right. How was he dressed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. With a brown--he had on a brown suit.

Mr. JENNER. Was he neatly dressed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't have slacks on?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I think that was a suit--I think that was a suit.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't wear shorts?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. How did he act?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, what he said--he walked out in the hallway, and I said, "What's coming off?" because I knew somebody was moving so, I didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, now, but Oswald walked out the door and this fellow walked out in the hall and he was the one that met me and he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile--moving out for awhile."

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether Mr. Oswald was going to remain?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all that was said and I went on home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see her?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, I didn't see Mrs. Oswald at all, and I don't know when they moved out.

Mr. JENNER. Did they all move out or just Marina?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's all he said--he just said, "Mrs. Oswald is going away for awhile or moving out for awhile."

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention that she had moved?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I didn't see her around--that's true, I didn't see her around.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him around, that is, Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; because I think he used that back entrance because--I really do think he must have used that back entrance because you didn't see him much, not even when Mrs. Oswald was there, only when you see them go out together.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the month of November?

Mrs. TOBIAS. It would have to have been.

Mr. JENNER. And it was something up to November 27--did he pay his rent for the month of December?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; it's all here.

Mr. JENNER. All right; let's look at it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Which one do we have now--which one is this?

Mr. JENNER. That's November.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you want all the way down--don't you?

Mr. JENNER. Give me the next one--that would be December--maybe I can help you with this.

Mrs. TOBIAS. This is the deposit and the rent there.

Mr. JENNER. This is the initial payment--now, I will look for December.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All right, here it is--starting here.

Mr. JENNER. You have a receipt No. 0154 in your book of original receipts here, dated December 6, 1962, reciting, "Received from L. H. Oswald--$68 for rental of apartment No. 2, from December 3, 1962, to January 3, 1963. Paid in cash. Signed by Mrs. M. F. Tobias, Sr."

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's when I had to take over.

Mr. JENNER. That's your signature?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That is right--after my husband was sick.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pay that to you in cash?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he did--he never gave checks.

Mr. JENNER. And he handed it to your personally, so you knew on that occasion, which was the 6th of December 1962, that he was there?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was paying his rent for the month of December?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald still absent?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, I don't know how long she was gone. Now, we really don't--my husband said he didn't--he didn't see her around.

Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when you first saw her?

Mrs. TOBIAS. After she came back?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it could have been another week or 10 days.

Mr. JENNER. So that would be in the month of December 1962--she was absent a week or 10 days?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She would have had to been because I didn't see her around, and they always kept their blinds down, you know, the shades was always pulled.

Mr. JENNER. They were?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--day and night, you never seen any shades up over there, their shades was always down.

Mr. JENNER. Wasn't that strange?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, a lot of my tenants do--we don't think nothing about it. We've got so many of them that keeps them down. I always think there must be something wrong when they keep them down, but we don't bother our tenants.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he paid his rent for the month of January 1963, did he not, and he paid it to you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. If it's on there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a receipt here No. 0178, dated January 4, 1963, "issued to L. H. Oswald for $68 for the rent of Apartment No. 2 from January 3, 1963, to and including February 3, 1963," and it is signed M. F. Tobias, Sr.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, he signed that one.

Mr. JENNER. Is that his signature or yours?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; that's his--that's his.

Mr. JENNER. That rent was paid in cash, was it?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he gave cash.

Mr. JENNER. To him; to your husband?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he always gave cash.

Mr. JENNER. And as of that time she was back in the apartment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; she was--you see this was later after she had come back and when she got friendly and would come over, and she would come over nearly every afternoon later, but she didn't come around--I didn't see her so much when they first moved in. You see, I told you, when they first moved in, I said to my husband, "I thought this was the man with the wife and child?" He said, "Yes, he told me that", but perhaps she wasn't around at the beginning for awhile.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any guests, any callers?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, one lady came to my door one evening.

Mr. JENNER. About when?

Mrs. TOBIAS. In the evening--you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. It was beginning to get dark.

Mr. JENNER. When was it--was it the evening of the weekday or weekend?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; it must have been a weekday because she said she had had a call. She came to my door and knocked.

Mr. JENNER. The lady did?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what month was it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. I don't even know that. She said she had been trying to contact Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Describe her please--age, weight--short or tall.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I let her come in, I was going to tell you, and she was, oh, a dark lady. She said she was Russian. I talked to her awhile.

Mr. JENNER. Was she dark-skinned or light-skinned?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she wasn't a blonde, she was a brunette--she was a real nice looking woman.

Mr. JENNER. She was white-skinned, however?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. About how old?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 35 and maybe a little older.

Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, about 5 foot 3 or 5 foot 4 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you judge she weighed?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she had a coat on--I don't know--I just don't really know. She wasn't real large but she wasn't real small and she said Mrs. Oswald had called her earlier in the day and said that the baby was sick and she didn't have any money to take the baby to the doctor, and she couldn't get them to the door, she sat in there and talked to us a while and my husband says he just doesn't remember this--this was after he had his accident, because his memory was pretty bad after he had had this accident and I asked her if she would like to have me go over with her and see if we could get in, and she said, "I would, because I rang the doorbell and I rang the doorbell, and I can't get them to the door." And, I said, "Okay, I'll go over with you." I didn't rap on the door, I just kept ringing the doorbell. Well, now, he didn't come out the front door.

Mr. JENNER. Which door were you rapping on? The rear or the front door?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I was ringing in the hallway, the front--I didn't rap on the door--I just rang the doorbell. We have doorbells. Now, he didn't come out in the hall entrance, he came around.

Mr. JENNER. Who did?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Mr. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. He came around from the back?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he came out of the back door and around and jumped in the hall, and I said, "Mr. Oswald, this lady is trying to find you people. You didn't answer." He said, "Oh, I'll take care of it." And he ushered her right inside and that's the last I seen.

Mr. JENNER. Did she recognize him?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I guess she did, because he just took her--they had nothing to say to each other in the hall. He just said, "Oh, I'll take care of it."

Mr. JENNER. No words passed between them?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; he just came from around.

Mr. JENNER. When she came to your place, did she identify herself as--who she was and where she worked--did she work in the Dallas area?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She worked downtown in an office.

Mr. JENNER. She said she worked downtown in an office?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; and she said she was going to see if she could help.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see that lady again?

Mrs. TOBIAS. I never seen her again and then, as I say, I seen a blonde-headed girl come there.

Mr. JENNER. Was this later?

Mrs. TOBIAS. This was after she was there and she wanted to know which apartment, and I showed her, and that's all I ever seen of her.

Mr. JENNER. Describe that lady, please; she was a blonde?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she was pretty slim.

Mr. JENNER. She was slender, was she?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was kind of thin.

Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, perhaps 5 foot 1 or 5 foot 2--maybe 3 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Not as tall as the first lady you described?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they could have been somewhere near the same height, but she was a different type.

Mr. JENNER. She was a different type person?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a blonde.

Mr. JENNER. Did she identify herself?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; she just asked which apartment Mr. Oswald lived in and I showed her and that's all I knew about it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak English?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she did--she talked to me in English.

Mr. JENNER. About when was that, with respect to the other incident you have described?

Mrs. TOBIAS. You mean between the two of them?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I don't know whether it was a week later or 2 weeks later, I just don't know. Just like I said, that if we had had any idea about all this, we might have put down dates.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure.

Mrs. TOBIAS. But I don't--I really don't know. When they don't find the party, they usually come to the manager, you see, and we try to help them if we can.

Mr. JENNER. Now, going back to these conversations you had with Mrs. Oswald about her being Russian, was there an occasion when she talked to you about the fact that her husband didn't want people to know that she spoke Russian?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She didn't say "speak". She said, "He doesn't want me to tell that I am Russian."

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She said, "Because people would be mean to me,"--she said they wouldn't be nice to her and they would be mean to her, and that was all said about that.

Mr. JENNER. You reassured her?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, I told her I didn't think that was true. I said, "I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone would be mean to you because I don't know why anyone should be." I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about her husband saying that he didn't want it known that they spoke Russian or that she was Russian, because men would come around?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; that was the only occasion--the only time that ever anything was spoken. She was pretty quiet herself.

Mr. JENNER. Did they make any long distance calls?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; they didn't on our phone. They asked us--these were all local, but they were very quiet people. They seemed to stay to themselves, that is, they didn't mix with no tenants and the tenants said they never even cared to speak with them. They never seemed to want to speak.

Mr. JENNER. That is the Oswalds?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Didn't care to mix.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't care to mix with other people--they made no effort to become friendly?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; I guess my house was the only one in the building she was ever in.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as he was concerned, he had little contact with you, did he, other than pay the rent?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; my husband went over and got after them about the noise. I didn't go with him. You could speak to him and he would look at you so funny--he just didn't have anything to say. I heard a lady describe him in an interview on TV and that was him exactly. I told my husband, she couldn't do a better job--because he was tight, you know.

Mr. JENNER. He was tightlipped most of the time?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Just as if his chin--just like that lady--I said to my husband, "isn't that something how she described him?"

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of the Oswalds after they left your building?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; they used to come back by, you see. I think I told you that my husband had had this accident. We have chairs--lawn chairs and we were sitting in the yard and she would come back by with the baby in her stroller and she would come up to the walk and smile.

Mr. JENNER. Did she talk to you?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she never tried to have a conversation. I walked out to the car and I said, "You moved away and left us."

Mr. JENNER. You walked out to the car?

Mrs. TOBIAS. She was standing by a car--you see, those cars were parked there and I knew where she went, my husband and I would take walks and I said, "Where did you go?" And she made "214" on the car and then I knew it was Neely--I said, "Neely."

Mr. JENNER. Did she nod her head?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a real sweet little girl as far as I was concerned and she was a lonely person. I think she was very lonely.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you would like to add that I have not brought out, either because I don't know about it or for any reason, that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, they said to me that they thought this fellow that moved her out might have been this George, but they brought pictures--do you have pictures of the other men?

Mr. JENNER. Moved her out?

Mrs. TOBIAS. You know--that day when they moved her out.

Mr. JENNER. Do I have pictures of a man by the name of George?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; they brought some out but now, that did not look like the man to me.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall them showing you a picture and telling you what the man's name was?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; is it Paden?

Mr. JENNER. The FBI agent?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I think he came to see us twice.

Mr. JENNER. Well, there are so many of them.

Mrs. TOBIAS. And he was about one of the second groups that came and then later he came back with these pictures and he asked me if I thought that was the man I had seen in the hallway.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the man who came to help her out of the apartment on that Sunday?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; he asked me if I thought that was him and I said, "Well, it does not look like him to me." But, there has been a different opinion on that--my husband and I have had a different opinion on that all along about what we thought he looked like, but that did not look like the man to me.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I want your view.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, it didn't to me--it didn't look like the same man to me, but I couldn't swear who it was because I've only seen the picture, and I have seen pictures of Mr. Ruby, but the day they apprehended Oswald, of course, we were looking on the TV.

Mr. JENNER. Did it look like pictures of Mr. Ruby you have seen?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the one that he had didn't, but what I was going to tell you--after all that happened, and I seen pictures of him, on the TV----

Mr. JENNER. Who--of Ruby?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I told my husband, I said, "Back in my mind that resembles the man more than anybody I have ever seen in my life," but now I wouldn't swear it because there was no resemblance of the pictures they brought out there to me, and the day that they arrested Mr. Oswald, Lee Oswald, we had TV on and I said to my husband, "Look who they've got."

He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "That's the guy that shot the President." He said, "Who is it?" I said, "That's Lee Oswald." He said, "How do you know?" And I said, "Don't you see him on there?" I recognized him right off and my husband's memory was kind of shook and he's just not the same person after he had this concussion.

Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry to hear that.

Mrs. TOBIAS. This big oil truck hit my husband, and you know, just almost got the car ahead and his nerves are just not the same--they haven't been the same. He says he's just not as stable--he's--he just don't seem to do what he should--it's coming gradually. The doctors say it will come, but he's kind of shook from the accident. I wasn't with him.

Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald around your home during those months, how was he dressed generally?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, he always just had slacks and a T-shirt or a jacket on, you know, a sport jacket--I don't mean a sport coat like a jacket.

Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes and a T-shirt. He most always had on a T-shirt--you didn't see him very many times without a shirt.

Mr. JENNER. I take it he got into no discussions with you or your husband about politics?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; Lord, no.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, he got in discussions with you about nothing?

Mrs. TOBIAS. No, no; we had no contact with him. He just paid the rent and out he would go. He didn't make an effort to make a conversation even when he came to use the phone.

Mr. JENNER. This is a furnished apartment?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Three rooms--do your three rooms consist of a living room, bedroom, and kitchen?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; with the kitchen and dining room combined.

Mr. JENNER. A kitchenette?

Mrs. TOBIAS. And it is all in one and then there is a bed in the wall in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. That opens into the living room.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; the living room is real large, but the bedrooms are small. Now, the kitchen that he had is smaller than the one I have, some of them are smaller, but that's the eating area, the dining area in the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mrs. Tobias, I can't think of anything else. I appreciate your coming up very much.

These depositions are written up and you have the right, if you wish, to exercise it, to read the deposition and to sign it. We don't insist on that at all and you may waive the signing of the deposition if you wish, and it's your option, to do either way you would prefer--if you would prefer to read the deposition and sign it and you say so, the U.S. attorney will get in touch with you in due course and you may come in and read it and sign it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, now, it doesn't matter to me because we would like to help you if we can and if we have been helpful and I tried to tell you exactly just what I know, which isn't very much help. I don't think we have been too much help because he moved out before all this happened.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you never can tell how much help you have been. You have been of help to me and I appreciate it very much.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, my husband and I have been willing--we have had a lot of people there.

Mr. JENNER. If you wished to waive the signing of the deposition, we can just send it right into Washington without troubling you to sign it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it is all right with me, because I have told you the truth.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, sure.

Mrs. TOBIAS. All that is there is the truth and I have told you all I know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, thank you very much, and I will have your husband in now, if I may?

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. Now, I couldn't swear that that was who the guy was. Now, do you want me to leave the books with you?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; leave the books and we will give them to your husband. Tobias Exhibit No. 1 is offered in evidence.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF M. F. TOBIAS, SR.

The testimony of M. F. Tobias, Sr., was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. I understand you suffered an injury in an automobile accident?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I ain't as young as I used to be since that.

Mr. JENNER. This is Mr. M. F. Tobias, Sr.?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And he lives at 602 604 Elsbeth Street, Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. TOBIAS. Six two and six four.

Mr. JENNER. And he lives with Mrs. Tobias and you manage an apartment building at that address?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; the wife and I together.

Mr. JENNER. Would you stand and be sworn, sir?

Mr. Tobias, in your testimony you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TOBIAS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Thank, you, sir.

Mr. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission. I understand from Mrs. Tobias that you and she received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the President's Commission?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And of President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, creating the Commission and appointing it and fixing its powers and duties and obligations, and also a copy of our rules and regulations for the taking of testimony. From those papers, I assume you are aware of the fact that at least our general direction is to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of doing that, there are many people who, in their pursuit of their livelihoods, came in contact with a man by the name of Lee Oswald, and we understand you folks did and I would like to ask you a few questions about it.

Mr. TOBIAS. Go ahead; I'm willing to answer all I can.

Mr. JENNER. You are aged what?

Mr. TOBIAS. Sixty-seven.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native-born American?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Born in Battle Creek, Mich.?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And your family--you raised two or three boys, as I understand it?

Mr. TOBIAS. I've got two boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. You have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and married now, I assume?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you are retired at the moment?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you and Mrs. Tobias manage this building on Elsbeth Street here in Dallas?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And in the course of your managing that building, you came in contact with a person by the name of Lee Oswald; is that so?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I can tell you one thing, he was a funny duck. He came up there--maybe 3 weeks before he rented it.

Mr. JENNER. He rented it on November 3, 1962?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; but he came there maybe 3 weeks before that.

Mr. JENNER. That would be in October. He was alone, was he?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and looked at the apartment. I told him what I wanted for it and I told him what the score was--we didn't allow no drinking or no parties, which I don't, and he says, "My wife isn't here"----

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Tobias, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Okay; now, that's what we want to get on the record. Repeat that.

Mr. TOBIAS. I tell them like this--what they drink in their apartment is their business, but when they get noisy that's mine. My business. Then, he came back----

Mr. JENNER. Was he alone?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he wanted to look at the apartment again, which happened to still be vacant, and then he wanted to go around the house.

Mr. JENNER. Around the apartment itself?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Before you is Tobias Exhibit No. 1, and that is Mrs. Tobias' conception of a plat of your building. Now, is there anything wrong with that?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it ain't the way I would have drawed it, because this building is kind of in a----

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mrs. Tobias has drawn that green and I hand you now a red pen and ask you to draw one.

Mr. TOBIAS. Do you want me to drawn another one?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; let's mark it "Tobias Exhibit No. 2," first.

(The witness marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. All right; draw me a plat of the building on the ground floor, that is the bottom surface.

(Witness Tobias drew the plat requested by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Tobias has drawn a =U=-shaped outline.

Mr. TOBIAS. This is all trees and shrubs in here.

Mr. JENNER. In the =U= portion, that is a court or a patio, is it?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's trees and shrubs?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which is Elsbeth Street? You are now writing "Elsbeth Street" and this court faces on Elsbeth Street, does it?

Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. TOBIAS. This is a private driveway through here.

Mr. JENNER. Does the private driveway swing around to the rear?

Mr. TOBIAS. And this is a line back here, a property line. Now, this is Davis Street here.

Mr. JENNER. All right, write Davis Street on there lengthwise, will you?

Mr. TOBIAS. Like that. [Complied with request of Counsel Jenner.]

Mr. JENNER. Now, does this private driveway enter on Elsbeth Street?

Mr. TOBIAS. The private driveway comes off from Elsbeth.

Mr. JENNER. Put an arrow there, will you?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's it.

Mr. JENNER. And that's the private driveway?

Mr. TOBIAS. Now, his apartment was this one here.

Mr. JENNER. Draw a line across there, and put in the apartment number.

Mr. TOBIAS. No. 2.

Mr. JENNER. And at what address?

Mr. TOBIAS. This is 604.

Mr. JENNER. All right; write that in there, and now we've got that located.

Mr. TOBIAS. [Witness complied with request of Counsel Jenner.] He had an outside entrance--this is another apartment here, No. 1.

Mr. JENNER. Also on the ground floor?

Mr. TOBIAS. Also on the ground floor. They both used the same entrance here.

Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" there.

Mr. TOBIAS. All the rest of the apartments--of course, there is an apartment here, and the same here [indicating]. It's two-story and the same thing upstairs.

Mr. JENNER. What is the apartment number that is right in back of that patio?

Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 6.

Mr. JENNER. And the one to the right?

Mr. TOBIAS. This is No. 5.

Mr. JENNER. And the one in front of that?

Mr. TOBIAS. This is my apartment here.

Mr. JENNER. Number what?

Mr. TOBIAS. No. 7.

Mr. JENNER. And what address is that on Elsbeth?

Mr. TOBIAS. This is 602.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Write that in and now we're got it. Now, what I want you to tell me about--is--tell me about that patio, how big is it?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, let's see, that must be 25 to 30 feet deep.

Mr. JENNER. How far across?

Mr. TOBIAS. About the same thing across.

Mr. JENNER. Does it have shrubbery and trees?

Mr. TOBIAS. You see, you have a front door--this is our front entrance here.

Mr. JENNER. Will you put a little square there?

Mr. TOBIAS. For these two apartments and for these three apartments here----

Mr. JENNER. I asked Mrs. Tobias, and I'm going to ask you this, because you are more accustomed to this sort of thing. Could a man stand in that patio and dry sight a firearm or a weapon and not be noticed?

Mr. TOBIAS. In the summertime--yes; because along here is shrubbery and along here is shrubbery. [Indicating.]

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you put a figure in there, because we need it for the record and let's call that your first figure here--let's put an "A" in there, and the other one "B". Now, those are shrubs or shrubbery?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right; and there is a brick wall across here.

Mr. JENNER. How high is that brick wall?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's about 18 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Just a low wall?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and there are shrubs on the outside of that wall and on the inside of the patio area here and in here in the center I have a round circle dug out and have got some kind of grass that grows right on there but that wouldn't amount to nothing.

Mr. JENNER. That shrubbery that is facing on Elsbeth Street, how tall is that?

Mr. TOBIAS. This shrubbery, now, faces these buildings here and it faces this apartment here.

Mr. JENNER. The "A" shrubbery faces the 604 address bank of apartments, and the "B" shrubbery faces your apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; No. 7. Now, this shrubbery is about 3 to 4 feet high.

Mr. JENNER. That's the "A" shrubbery?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. This shrubbery over here is not so high because some of it died on me and I had to dig it up, but here now I have a big tree.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "here," you are pointing to the center?

Mr. TOBIAS. Up here I have two pieces of shrubbery on each side of that.

Mr. JENNER. The tree is what kind of a tree?

Mr. TOBIAS. It's a fir tree.

Mr. JENNER. It's solid right down to the ground?

Mr. TOBIAS. That fir is up there maybe 25 feet high.

Mr. JENNER. So, somebody could stand behind the tree, and dry sight a rifle and not be seen from Elsbeth Street?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, pursuing this same subject--first, Elsbeth Street runs in what direction?

Mr. TOBIAS. North and south.

Mr. JENNER. Which is the north end--the 604 side or your side?

Mr. TOBIAS. Let me see, now. I get confused in directions.

Mr. JENNER. Well, let's put an "N" there for north and put an "S" up there for south and then over this way is to the east.

Mr. TOBIAS. And this is west.

Mr. JENNER. And if that is west, then this must be south and this must be north.

Mr. TOBIAS. This is just exactly the way the apartment sets; this is west here.

Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there and put an "E" up at the top for east.

Mr. TOBIAS. I get confused with this direction myself here.

Mr. JENNER. Calling your attention to the rear entrance from the parkway, the driveway, what is there to the north of that, another building?

Mr. TOBIAS. There is a house here.

Mr. JENNER. A single-family dwelling?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; an old lady 80 years old lives there.

Mr. JENNER. And is that all open except for that house?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. This is a regular driveway. We have our driveway here and she has her driveway too, you see.

Mr. JENNER. All right; put another driveway in there. I'm going to mark that second driveway, if I might. [Counsel Jenner marked the instruments as stated.] There is a single-family dwelling, then?

Mr. TOBIAS. She keeps--this old lady there keeps roomers.

Mr. JENNER. She does?

Mr. TOBIAS. What I mean, she just has just a room.

Mr. JENNER. Is that house about in here?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; that would be on the other side of the driveway here.

Mr. JENNER. The other side of where I have marked this second driveway?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; facing Elspeth.

Mr. JENNER. What is the open space, say, between your building line and the single family dwelling?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, that must be--that can't be more than 25 feet because there are 2 driveways there.

Mr. JENNER. Could a man dry sighting a weapon, holding a rifle outside that rear entrance, do so without being detected and without people noticing it?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, you've got the streets on Elspeth and people in that house might see it, because her roomers are right there by that door.

Mr. JENNER. Now, people who are passing by or looking out of your window or looking out from this rooming house could see that?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever say anything to you about Oswald having a weapon?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. A firearm?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Using it--sighting it?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you noticed that there had been brought near the premises or on it or in his possession a package?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never did see it because he always used his back door and I was over on the other side.

Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me--a package that to you you would recognize as a rifle?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. That possibly was a rifle?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or, a bunch of curtain rods or window shades or something of that nature?

Mr. TOBIAS. No. No; I've never seen nothing like that. I don't even remember the parcel post man ever leaving anything there--a package or anything. I never was in his apartment but twice, I don't think, while he lived there. I went in there with the exterminators twice, once a month, and we exterminated the place for cockroaches, that's one thing we don't like around here, and, of course, I had to get her permission to go in there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and she was an awful nice girl.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Did she understand you when you spoke to her?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was--would come out in her front yard--I sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and, of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she could, because he didn't want her to anyway.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?

Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she give any reason?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she said people will be mean to her. She got acquainted with them. She got acquainted with them and she used to come over to the house and sit with the wife a lot and the wife would talk to her.

Mr. JENNER. And you moved in and around a lot, did you?

Mr. TOBIAS. Do you mean me--I was out around a lot?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I mean you--you were around and you saw her with the child and you saw her in the apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was around all the time--there is no night that goes by before I got to bed that I don't make a trip around the house.

Mr. JENNER. You had an accident; when was that?

Mr. TOBIAS. In October, I think it was.

Mr. JENNER. And were you confined in your apartment for quite a while?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I was there a week before I went to the hospital and I was in the hospital a week or better, and then I come home and I didn't do much but lay around--I had an awful concussion.

Mr. JENNER. That's what I understand--are you feeling better now?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, I'm getting along all right now, only lost the hearing out of this ear.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see Marina in and around your apartment and you saw her out in the walk, walking the baby and she was friendly, was she?

Mr. TOBIAS. She was always friendly.

Mr. JENNER. A very nice girl?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Clean and neat?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And attended to her child?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she took care of her baby, that's for sure, and it was always clean.

Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to be pleasant and talk to you people to the limited extent she was able to do, is that a fair statement?

Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't hear you.

Mr. JENNER. I mean, she would say a few words to you--she had a limited command of English?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But you tried to communicate with her and she with you?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At least to a limited extent?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I talked to her and, of course, she wouldn't say nothing back and Oswald, I tried to talk to him several times and all I could get of him was a grunt. He was a kind of a guy that wouldn't talk to you at all.

Mr. JENNER. Is that right?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he was a peculiar duck.

Mr. JENNER. How did your other tenants feel toward Oswald?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they didn't like it.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't like what?

Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't like the way he beat her all the time.

Mr. JENNER. They complained to you that he manhandled her?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's domestic troubles and I don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting," which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll have to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door.

Mr. JENNER. When was that, when did that occur?

Mr. TOBIAS. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. When did that occur?

Mr. TOBIAS. While he was living there--along toward the last. I think it was the last month he was there.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I was going by there--and I cleaned the halls, and I was sweeping out the hall and I seen the window was broken and I spoke to him about it and he said, "I'll get it in" and he never did get it in.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you how it happened?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any covering up over it?

Mr. TOBIAS. He got to fighting so much around there that I told the man that owned it, Mr. Jurek, so him and his wife went over there one night and told him that he was making too much noise with their fighting and they had to quit or move, so they moved.

Mr. JENNER. You found this fellow pretty close-mouthed and laconic?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he was--he didn't say nothing to nobody.

Mr. JENNER. On the other hand, you found her to be pleasant, neat and a delightful young lady?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. A good mother?

Mr. TOBIAS. She came over too, when he came over to use the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. When was that--do you remember a particular incidence?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, well, one time--yes--somebody by the name of George called.

Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone on that occasion?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; mother answered it and I don't hardly ever answer the phone because I can't hear good and this fellow wanted Oswald and she asked him, I understand, who it was and she said it was George and I went over and told Oswald that he was wanted on the phone and they came over there and they both talked and they both talked in their language.

Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the telephone conversation, did you?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; you couldn't--because they talked in their language.

Mr. JENNER. You heard him, is all I asked you?

Mr. TOBIAS. All I could hear--I could hear him talking but I didn't know what they were talking about.

Mr. JENNER. You were present in the room, is all I mean.

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; we were there.

Mr. JENNER. And you heard him speak over the telephone?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he spoke in some foreign tongue?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which you couldn't understand?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the whole conversation was in this foreign tongue?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; they both talked.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't hear the other fellow on the other end?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. You assumed that he was likewise talking in the same language?

Mr. TOBIAS. I imagine so--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you curious about that?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--I didn't like it, because when anybody says anything, I like to know what they are talking about.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about it?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; because it's a private phone and I pay my own phone bill, and I don't figure it's up to the people in the apartments to be using my phone all the time, and we let him understand that.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what language that was he was speaking in?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, he came over--when he first came in he told us he was Czech.

Mr. JENNER. When was this--this 3 weeks other time?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; that was after he moved in, and my landlady is Czechoslovakian.

Mr. JENNER. Your landlady is Czechoslovakian?

Mr. TOBIAS. My landlady is Czechoslovakian herself, and so one day when Marion was over at the house, Mrs. Oswald was in there--she had come in there and sat down.

Mr. JENNER. This was an occasion when Marina, or do you mean the landlady, Marion came in?

Mr. TOBIAS. I say Mrs. Jurek was there.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Jurek was in your apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she came to collect the rent and Mrs. Oswald was in there.

Mr. JENNER. She was visiting?

Mr. TOBIAS. And my wife says. "Mrs. Jurek, Mrs. Oswald is Czechoslovakian." Mrs. Jurek says, "All right, speak something. I'm Czech too." She says, "No, we're not Czech, we're Russian, but my husband doesn't want us to say that because people will be mean to us."

Mr. JENNER. How do you know she said that?

Mr. TOBIAS. I was there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear Marina say, "No; I'm not Czech, I'm Russian."

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. "And my husband doesn't want people to know that because people will be mean to me?"

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She said that much in English so that you would understand it?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That's quite a bit of English.

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I know. That's what I'm trying to tell you--she knew more English than she let on she did.

Mr. JENNER. That's of interest to us--she was able to communicate that whole idea to you in English?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And did she speak some Russian then to this lady?

Mr. TOBIAS. No--after she told Mrs. Jurek she was Russian, that was it, because Mrs. Jurek didn't--she was Czech and she didn't know no Russian.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that Marina visited in your apartment rather frequently?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she come over there very seldom--she came over there.

Mr. JENNER. Very seldom?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she come over there a couple of times a week.

Mr. JENNER. She did come over that often, though?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she would come over there and sit and the wife would talk to her, because my wife is a great hand to sew, and she would watch the wife and the little baby would play, but what burned me up--I'm a great lover of children, and when I tried to get next to that little baby sitting in a wheelchair----

Mr. JENNER. In a stroller?

Mr. TOBIAS. In a stroller and as I would walk up to it and try to talk to it, she just acted as if she was scared to death.

Mr. JENNER. Is that so--was that unusual?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it is to me.

Mr. JENNER. I mean, in your experience?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; because I haven't found a baby yet that I couldn't take over.

Mr. JENNER. Did you finally win the baby over?

Mr. TOBIAS. No--they didn't stay there that long. That's why he moved--he moved in that trailer, in that stroller.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. TOBIAS. That was after--when he left my place. When he moved from my place up around the corner around a block and a half and he moved everything in that stroller.

Mr. JENNER. Was that after the owners of the building had come and told him that he was making too much noise or too much trouble and that they suggested he might find another apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see, this was on a Sunday, wasn't it, March 3?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now--I think that he stayed there, a couple of days, if I'm not mistaken over his rent period.

Mr. JENNER. He had paid his rent, though?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; he had paid his rent. You see, the last month that he paid, the books will show you that he come in there with $60 and that's all he had, he said, and then he would come back later with the $8, which he did do.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias has furnished your rent receipts and we have recited that into the record, so we have a record of that. He didn't move out on the 3d, he lacked a couple of days, is that right?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there might have been a day or two in there in his getting out.

Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for those extra days?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask him to pay?

Mr. TOBIAS. No--I didn't. We asked him to pay for the window, but he didn't pay for it either.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever come back and ask you for his $5 deposit, the key deposit?

Mr. TOBIAS. No, he never did--not to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender the key?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out?

Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't understand it.

Mr. JENNER. What was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, it was in pretty good shape.

Mr. JENNER. It was?

Mr. TOBIAS. It was pretty clean--there was one thing I noticed and that was when I went in there with the exterminator--we have beds in there, the beds that we have in there has these kind of bookshelves at the top of them, and he had worlds and worlds of books.

Mr. JENNER. He did?

Mr. TOBIAS. They were all Russian--you would see this Russian and this Russian and this Russian and that, but I didn't touch one of them.

Mr. JENNER. But they were either Russian language books?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, that I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they were books about Russia?

Mr. TOBIAS. They were on Russia, because the headline on the side of it here was Russian.

Mr. JENNER. On the heel of the book?

Mr. TOBIAS. And it would just be Russian I or Russian II or something like that and that was to me kinda--looked kinda odd to me; of course, I didn't think nothing of it.

Mr. JENNER. Were they subscribers to newspapers?

Mr. TOBIAS. I think he took the Morning News, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. JENNER. He paid the rent promptly?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; by the month.

Mr. JENNER. By the month and in cash?

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right, and the only time he got behind was that one month--that one time there with the $8 and then he made that up.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him where he was working?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. How he was making his money?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; you didn't discuss nothing with that boy.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't volunteer it and even if you tried, you couldn't have gotten anything--is that about it?

Mr. TOBIAS. His card--when he made out his card--when he made out his card, that's where I slipped up a little, I guess. He made out his card that he was in the service. Of course, I should have questioned him more, which I didn't do, but in the business in the apartment house you get so darned many jokers in there.

Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't doubt it--was there an occasion when Marina moved out for a short time?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Describe that, please.

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, this is when I was goofy-headed.

Mr. JENNER. You mean that followed your accident?

Mr. TOBIAS. I hadn't been home from the hospital very long, but we came back from somewhere--I don't know where, and we seen a car out there and they were loading it up and the wife jumped out of the car and she said, "Well, I guess the Oswalds are moving. We'll find out."

She goes around and goes in the front door and back down to the door and she meets a man and she says. "What are they doing--moving out?" And he tells her that he's moving Mrs. Oswald away for a short time. So, I don't know whether it was the same guy or another guy, but anyway, there was a fellow that came around to the front with an armload of stuff--but the man I seen was a tall man, about 6-foot tall and dark complected and a slight mustache. That was the man that I saw.

Mr. JENNER. How big a man was he?

Mr. TOBIAS. He was a tall man--6-foot tall.

Mr. JENNER. At least 6-foot--he might have been taller?

Mr. TOBIAS. He could have been taller.

Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Bob?

Mr. DAVIS. Six foot four inches.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis will stand up and he is 6 foot 4 inches.

Mr. TOBIAS. He was about like him--maybe a little shorter, but just about that height.

Mr. JENNER. About that build?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--just about the same build.

Mr. JENNER. What did he weigh--a couple of hundred pounds or a hundred and ninety?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, probably a hundred ninety to two hundred pounds.

Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 195.

Mr. TOBIAS. That's what I weigh.

Mr. JENNER. What did this man say?

Mr. TOBIAS. He said he was moving Mrs. Oswald for a few days--he told the wife that. He never said nothing to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the automobile they were in?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was it?

Mr. TOBIAS. It was a convertible--a red one.

Mr. JENNER. Red?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what make it was?

Mr. TOBIAS. No, I don't--I had seen it there before.

Mr. JENNER. When did this occur?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I guess maybe she moved out in March.

Mr. JENNER. Was--with respect to your illness, was it before your illness or after--before your accident or after?

Mr. TOBIAS. That was after my accident. You see, I was goofy-headed right around in that period of time.

Mr. JENNER. From your concussion?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; in fact, I have been goofy-headed all of my life, but I was worse then.

Mr. JENNER. You said you saw this red convertible around the apartment on prior occasions?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I had seen the car there once before.

Mr. JENNER. At least once?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been more?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, no, I won't say any more than that, but I know I have seen it there once before that time.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen this man there before?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never seen him before. You see, they can drive right down that driveway and park in front of this door here, and I couldn't see them.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they could come in from the rear, couldn't they, they could come in off of Davis Street?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they could come up around off of Davis and come up through here too.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have anybody visit there, in addition to this man?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, there was a lady came there to see about the baby one day and she said she had got a call that the baby was sick and they didn't have no money to buy it any medicine and my wife took her over there and she said she had been trying to get in, but there wouldn't nobody answer the door and my wife went over there and she hammered on the door and Oswald, instead of him coming to the front door, he goes out this back door and comes all the way around to the front.

Mr. JENNER. That's kind of strange.

Mr. TOBIAS. That's right--that's the kind of guy he was, and then there was a blonde headed woman there one time.

Mr. JENNER. A blonde?

Mr. TOBIAS. She was looking for Oswald--for the Oswalds, too.

Mr. JENNER. Describe her?

Mr. TOBIAS. She got in and she went in the house.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I imagine she weighed around 120 pounds and was around 5 foot 3 inches or 4 inches.

Mr. JENNER. A slender woman?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was a slender, blonde headed--a pretty woman. This other woman that came there wanted to see about the baby, and she was kind of a dark-haired woman and I imagine she would weigh around 100 pounds or 110, but she was rather short, she was about 5 feet tall.

Mr. JENNER. She was 100 pounds and 5 feet what?

Mr. TOBIAS. She was around 5 foot--she wasn't too large.

Mr. JENNER. She was kind of slender too, then, a little heavier than the other one?

Mr TOBIAS. Yes, she was a little heavier.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of these ladies identify themselves in any way?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say they lived in Dallas or worked in Dallas?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, let me see--there's one of them, I think this dark-headed woman, said she worked here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the one you described first?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; the dark-headed woman--the blonde--I don't know about her, the wife talked to her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds after they left, after they moved out of the apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; I don't know that I ever seen him, but I seen her as she went by the house a couple of times wheeling the baby and I didn't even know where they moved to until one night my car was in a wreck and I didn't have nothing and the wife and I walked a lot and I went around the corner and I seen her upstairs in an apartment window and that was where they moved to. I don't know how long they stayed there. She went by the house not more than 3 or 4 weeks ago here and she had a bunch of men in the car one night and waved--she knew me.

Mr. JENNER. She waved to you 2 or 3 weeks ago?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get a good look at her?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized her?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, yes--she was sitting in the back seat. She had the little girl with her.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a convertible?

Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; that was a big car--I don't know what kind of car it was.

Mr. JENNER. You have seen some pictures of Jack Ruby posted in the newspaper and on television?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This man that came to move Marina out of there for a temporary visit, did he look like Jack Ruby?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. How long was she away?

Mr. TOBIAS. Oh, she wouldn't have been away, well, I imagine she was gone about 2 weeks. I never did know when she came back.

Mr. JENNER. She was gone temporarily, a week to 2 weeks, or something of that kind?

Mr. TOBIAS. She was gone longer than that--she was gone a couple of weeks at least.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you about that sojourn of hers?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever ask her?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did your wife?

Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't ask her nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your wife did?

Mr. TOBIAS. No--I don't know whether she did or not.

Mr. JENNER. At least your wife never reported it to you?

Mr. TOBIAS. If my wife said anything, or if she had said anything to my wife, she would have told me. My wife and I been together 43 years.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your observations, I know you have already done it to some extent, but give me your observations as to the personality of this man.

Mr. TOBIAS. Ruby?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Mr. TOBIAS. You mean Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes--you saw him off and on for about 4 months.

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, now, he was the kind of a guy that went around with his lips tight and if you did say anything to him he would answer you just as darn quick as he could and just be sharp as he could and so he didn't have to do that to me only a couple of times and I didn't say nothing more to him.

Mr. JENNER. You got the message?

Mr. TOBIAS. And I figured that if he didn't want to talk to me, I didn't want to talk to him. He come over and paid his rent, he paid his rent and I give him a receipt, and that was all there was to it.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any pleasantries on that occasion?

Mr. TOBIAS. No, no; there was no good morning or no good night or nothing about it, and he would get up and go to the store to get the groceries and she would carry the groceries and he would lead the way.

Mr. JENNER. You saw that on more than one occasion?

Mr. TOBIAS. I saw it a lot of times.

Mr. JENNER. She did the lugging?

Mr. TOBIAS. Yes--sure.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have an automobile?

Mr. TOBIAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any conversation with him or conversation occurred in your presence as to whether he could drive an automobile?

Mr. TOBIAS. No--no.

Mr. JENNER. And when they moved away, they moved away in the perambulator?

Mr. TOBIAS. They moved away in that stroller.

Mr. JENNER. They couldn't have had very much in the way of household equipment?

Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't have very much--all he had was books and what little dishes they had and that wasn't very many and the baby bed.

Mr. JENNER. You did see Marina from time to time after they moved out of the apartment?

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I have seen her maybe, I'll say three or four times--that's all I've seen her. She would go by and she would always wave a hand at me and she would go down--I don't know to where to heck she ever went to, but she always--when she was even living there, she would go out onto Davis and I would watch her as she would go on up to Zangs Street going towards town. Whether she was going to go see somebody or just going for a walk, that, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Tobias, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; I told you just like I told the FBI--I have tried to be honest with all them and I have sat down and studied it and after the FBI had come out there and see if I could think of anything else and I told you just like I told the other 10--there has been 10 of them out there. I even had one guy from the Detroit Times down there. Of course, I was raised in Michigan and I told him to keep my name out of it and he did and he didn't put it in there. All my people are up there and I didn't want them to get tangled up in it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I have concluded my questioning. If there is nothing further you want to add, we appreciate this very much, your coming in, and you might think that you are not furnishing us anything, but there are kernels, you know, and pieces of the puzzle--there are small ones and big ones. I offer Tobias Exhibit No. 2 in evidence.

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, like I told my wife--anytime we can help out we will and if you want us again, we are willing.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return them to you and thank you very much for bringing them.

Mr. TOBIAS. I have one of these I keep ever since I been in that apartment and I been there for 3 years and a half and I have got every receipt I ever wrote and I keep it on records and lots of times I have to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into them and that's the credit department.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Tobias, this deposition will be written up in due course and you may read it and sign it. If you wish, you may waive that--it's a privilege and a right you have if you want to sign it, and if you want to waive it that's all right.

Mr. TOBIAS. It would be sent to me?

Mr. JENNER. You would have to come in here to read it.

Mr. TOBIAS. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. If you want to come in and read it you call Barefoot Sanders' office, that's the U.S. Attorney's Office, and they will tell you when it is ready to be read. Mrs. Tobias decided she would forego that privilege--she didn't want to come in and read it.

Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I'll talk to her too.

Mr. JENNER. Okay; you'll call in and Mr. Sanders will probably call you, but you will hear from him.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you very much.

[At this point Mrs. Tobias, the wife of the deponent, entered the deposing room.]

Mr. TOBIAS. The wife wants to talk to you about something.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, you said something about signing this; how is that going to be?

Mr. JENNER. Well, your husband decided he would like to see his and you might like to see yours, so you might as well see yours?

Mrs. TOBIAS. You will call us--you will let us know?

Mr. TOBIAS. We will come in here, mother, and if you want to sign it, and if you don't want to sign it we won't sign it.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. Now, wait a minute--you come down and read it and if there are any errors in it, that you want to correct, you correct them, but you aren't going to refuse to sign it, are you?

Mr. TOBIAS. No; I don't imagine I will.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you know what he said, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. TOBIAS. We got this letter and he said, "I thought we was going to get around this Warren Commission--I didn't think we were going to have to go before the Warren Commission."

Is this going to be the end of it or is there still going to be some more?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't tell you whether it will be the end of it or not.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, we may go from here--that letter said any place in the United States and if it did we would have to go; okay?

Mr. JENNER. That's right. If you have to come to Washington, your transportation will be paid.

Mr. TOBIAS. That's all right, but just make it summertime.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, of course we will be glad to come.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you both for coming.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JESSE GARNER

The testimony of Mrs. Jesse Garner was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Jesse Garner, 4911 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La., after being sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, examiner, testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand, Mrs. Garner, that Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your husband last week advising you I would contact you concerning the taking of your testimony.

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with the letter a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution to which I have referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that not correct?

Mrs. GARNER. That's right

Mr. LIEBELER. We wish to inquire of you today, Mrs. Garner, concerning your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald which you may have gained as a result of your being the manager or one of the managers of the apartment building in which Oswald lived while he was in New Orleans from approximately May through September 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. GARNER. Mrs. Jesse Garner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mrs. GARNER. 4911 Magazine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mrs. GARNER. Vacherie, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life in Louisiana?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mrs. GARNER. March 16, 1919.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you and your husband are the managers of the premises known as 4905-11 Magazine Street here in New Orleans?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; we are.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been the managers of those premises?

Mrs. GARNER. Four years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you describe briefly for us the nature of the premises?

Mrs. GARNER. The house, do you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. GARNER. Well, it is a double house. I live in one side, and the other side has two apartments, and I have two apartments in the back, unattached to the house upstairs and downstairs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that the half of the house in which you and your husband live is known as 4911 Magazine Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the front apartment, which I understand is one-half of the rest of the house----

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is 4907 Magazine Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the rear of the other side of the house is a separate apartment numbered 4905 Magazine Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the spring of 1963 when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. When I talked to them, or what?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. GARNER. Or when I rented him the place?

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first come in contact with him, and what was your conversation with him, and what was the result of the conversation you had?

Mrs. GARNER. The only thing was when he come to rent the apartment, there was another lady that brought him but they were in the car, but I didn't notice the car. I didn't pay attention, and when she came to the door to ring the bell, she told me he was looking for an apartment and his mother and her was good friends, and she knew him from a baby. Little Lee she called him, and that she had two places, I don't remember exactly where she said--I think somewhere on Prythania, and he went there first and they never had nothing empty, and she took him riding and they saw my sign and stopped. I showed him the apartment, and she took him through it, and she said it was very nice. She looked at the screen porch and said it would be very nice for the baby. We stood on the screen porch, and he asked me did I have any table lamps, they didn't have any and his wife was going to come later, and we stood on the porch talking and she was telling me how long she knew him, since he was a little boy, and she was friends with his mother and he had gotten married overseas, and she hadn't met his wife and hadn't seen him for a long time, and that is when he took a picture out of his wallet and showed a picture of his wife and baby. Not the baby, I don't think he had a picture of the baby. Maybe he did, I don't remember. Well, I told him, I said, well, that is nice, overseas girls make nice wives at times, because I had one living upstairs not too long before that, and I said they were real nice. He said, "Yes, one thing, they don't give you no lip." I will never forget that. That is one thing he said, and that's all I can really remember he said, and he paid me the month's rent.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much was that?

Mrs. GARNER. $65.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he pay that to you? Was it in cash?

Mrs. GARNER. Cash; and he said that his wife would be coming in that Sunday, the weekend you know. I think it was, it must have been on the ninth. I don't remember exactly when the ninth was. What day was it?

Mr. LIEBELER. The 9th of May, according to the calendar with which the reporter has graciously supplied us, was a Thursday.

Mrs. GARNER. Thursday. That weekend, that is when she came in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of this woman that was with Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. No; she never said her name and I didn't ask her, but I know she was a middle-aged woman in about her middle fifties or late fifties, well kept, reddish looking hair with a ball in the back, and she wore glasses; a well kept woman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they say specifically they had stopped at your place because they had seen the sign advertising the apartment for rent?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; the sign, yes. She took him riding and seen the sign out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation with either Oswald or this lady that first time you met Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. No; that is about all, because then they left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald move back to the apartment, or move into the apartment, before his wife came or did they come together and move in together?

Mrs. GARNER. No; he was in there a couple of days before she came.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember exactly when he moved in? Did he come back later on the 9th, or did he come on the 10th?

Mrs. GARNER. The next day, the next evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next day. He moved in the next evening?

Mrs. GARNER. The next evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been Friday the 10th?

Mrs. GARNER. I don't know if he stayed there, but he was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did move some of his belongings in; is that correct?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about his belongings, what kind of stuff he had?

Mrs. GARNER. I didn't see that. I didn't see anything of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any suitcases he might have had?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when his wife came?

Mrs. GARNER. That weekend; on that Sunday. That was a Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did she arrive?

Mrs. GARNER. In this station wagon, that lady from Texas, that it had a Texas license, blue and tan station wagon or blue and white, something like that, and she also stayed a few days then when she brought the wife in, she stayed at least a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a woman from Texas?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whom you later learned was named Mrs. Paine? Is that correct?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice how many people there were in the station wagon when it arrived?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I really didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice how many----

Mrs. GARNER. In fact, I didn't see the station wagon when it arrived; I didn't see it until the next day. I saw it parked out there with the Texas license and figured, you know, she had come in, his wife, because that is where he told me she was coming from, Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later learn how many people were in the apartment, or came in the station wagon?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; when my husband talked to Mrs. Paine outside, he told me she had two little girls. I didn't know it, I didn't see them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did Oswald himself have a little girl?

Mrs. GARNER. A little girl, June.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald's wife?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. I didn't know she was in a family way. I didn't know she was going to have another baby when she rented the apartment, because when I first saw her she didn't look that way to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say Mrs. Paine stayed in the apartment about a week. Did you have any conversation with her during that time?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I never even saw the lady. I never saw her. I couldn't tell you what she looked like. My husband saw her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say your husband had talked to her. Did he tell you what she had said?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I never asked him and he never said nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any direct contact with either Oswald or his wife after they moved into the apartment?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, the first thing, they was there a couple of weeks and I have a window fan in the kitchen, and I take the screen down to hose it and clean it, and I didn't put the screen back up. I just set it on the screen porch, and a couple of weeks later he come to me and asked me if I had a ladder and hammer, he was going to put the screen up.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the screen that belonged on the window----

Mrs. GARNER. The screen belonged on the outside of the kitchen. I have a window fan and it gets dirty, and I take it off and hose it and clean it, but I didn't put it back. I left it on the porch, and he wanted to put it back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this a window fan in Oswald's kitchen?

Mrs. GARNER. It was in Oswald's kitchen, and he wanted to put the screen up and asked me was it all right to put the screen up, and asked me would I loan him a ladder and a hammer. The hooks belonged to the screen to hook the screen, they was off, but I loaned him two nails and told him to tack the screen on so far, so I could take the nails off, and that would be it, so his wife come outside in the meantime with the baby, and they was talking Russian and I couldn't understand what they were saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know it was the Russian language then?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I don't know. I just put two and two together when they come out with that Russian, but I knew she was Russian. He told me she was Russian when they came to rent the apartment. I don't know what made me say it, but I told him, I called him Lee, I said, "Lee, why don't you talk English to your little girl and your wife? That way she could learn to talk English, and when the little girl goes to school it wouldn't be as hard on her."

He said, "She has time enough to learn that," and he never had a nice word to say to me after that. I think that must have made him hate me or something like that, because he just passed me up all the time too, and never turned his head to look.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he get the screen back up?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; he tacked it back up, and I got my ladder and hammer back, and he never even said thank you or nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reason why he didn't speak English to his wife and girl?

Mrs. GARNER. No; that's all he said, they had plenty time enough for that, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; I did when she would be outside hanging clothes. I tried to talk to her and to the baby, I talked to both, and she would put her hands over her eyes and start crying. I asked her how she felt, and she would just do like this with her shoulders.

Mr. LIEBELER. She shrugged her shoulders?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; and when she would see you she would not try to say hello, and she always wore little pedal pushers around the house with a little shirt, and her hair was straight pulled back and pinned down.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was Marina?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she have long hair?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; long enough, about here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down to her shoulders?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other contact with Oswald yourself, personally?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. One time I went for my rent, it was a few days past due, the rent, and I mean, you know, when you let them go they wait too long and they don't ever get it. It was a few days later, I was going around the drive to see about my rent and he was starting out the drive to catch a bus on the corner, and when he saw me he turned around and looked, figured I was coming after the rent. I said, "Oswald, you got the rent? The landlady is coming for the rent." He said, "Yes, I have it."

He was fixing to go to the bus, so he turned around to walk up the drive to go get the money, and I said, "Go on where you have to go; I will get it later," and he just pushed me aside and went by me and went and got the money and handed it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually push you aside physically?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes, just like that, and I called to him and I said, "Never mind; go where you have to go and I will get it later," and he just took me like this and pushed me aside and just went, you know, just went by me like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He actually laid his hands on you?

Mrs. GARNER. Put his hands on me just like that, and pushed me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything?

Mrs. GARNER. He didn't say a thing. He come back and gave me the money and that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you had any----

Mrs. GARNER. Well, I didn't talk to him any more than that, because I noticed how he was, wouldn't answer you when you say good morning or good evening, hello or good morning, so I just never bothered. The only thing, at night he used to come past behind the house and always wore trunks, yellow trunks with thongs, no top shirt, and he used to stuff all my garbage cans and all the garbage cans on the street, and never would talk to anybody, pass right by the door of the apartment of the other people and never did talk to anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversation with him after this time when you asked him about the rent?

Mrs. GARNER. No, that's about it. The most I talked to him was when he rented the apartment, that is the day he took it, and that lady done most of the talking. In fact, she had given me her phone number to let me call and let her know how Oswald was doing, and the wife when the wife would come in. I figured what in the world I want that for and I just threw it away and didn't bother with it. I didn't think anything like this was going to come up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any visitors to his apartment, do you know?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. As I said, I never did see anybody else around there myself except this middle-aged man and middle-aged woman like I said that come and picked him up one weekend on a Saturday and come back that Sunday after, because I happened to be sitting on the box and saw them come up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would this have been in July?

Mrs. GARNER. About in July, I imagine. I know there was a lot of mosquitoes around that time; I think it was July sometime. I am really not sure. It was hot.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did these people come to see Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. That is twice I seen, once I seen both of them come in the evening one night, and they didn't stay very long, but I was sitting outside. And that weekend, it was just him come to pick him up.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the man come to pick up Oswald on two different occasions? Is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. One occasion they came.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man was with a woman on one occasion?

Mrs. GARNER. At night one time, and then when he come to pick him up for the weekend he was by himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether, he was there twice?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Once by himself?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And once with a woman; is that right?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. If they was there before that, I didn't see them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You only saw him come twice?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this man?

Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. Like I say, I am not too good at judging ages. I would say in his late fifties or early sixties, something like that. He had a high forehead, a high peak right here, and kind of greyish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you describe him for us, please? Was he a white man?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to be Spanish or Cuban extraction to you?

Mrs. GARNER. No, no, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was fair complected?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are those the only two people you ever saw visit Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, there was that Cuban or Spanish looking guy one time rang my bell in the late afternoon, kind of short, very dark black curly hair, and he had a stack of these same pamphlets in his hand he was spreading out on Canal Street there on the porch, and he had a stack of them in his hand and he asked me about Oswald, and I said he was living around on that side where the screen porch is, and I saw those things in his hand and I said, "You are not going to spread those things on my porch," and that was all, and I closed the door and went on about my business. I don't know, but I guess he went over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many pamphlets did this man have in his hand?

Mrs. GARNER. I don't know. You know how thin those things are, and he had a stack about that high.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 inches or 6 inches, maybe?

Mrs. GARNER. About that high.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the width of your hand?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What color were they, do you remember?

Mrs. GARNER. That I can't remember. They looked like yellow and pink, all different colors.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how old was this fellow?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, he was young. I don't believe he was young as Oswald, but he was young, in his thirties I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he as tall as Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. No, he was shorter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he wear sunglasses, if you remember?

Mrs. GARNER. No, he didn't have sunglasses on because it was so late in the evening, just about dark.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he of a light build, or was he heavy set?

Mrs. GARNER. No, I wouldn't say. He wasn't light, wasn't heavy; he was in between that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have an accent, do you remember?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes. That's why I said he was either Spanish or Cuban. I don't know. He speaks broken English, like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this gentleman coming there?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI that this man had----

Mrs. GARNER. The pamphlets?

Mr. LIEBELER. The pamphlets.

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told that to the FBI?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when this fellow came to see Oswald?

Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I know it was around that time, just right after he was picked up on Canal Street for distributing them. It was a few days after that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about his arrest?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Canal Street?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes, I read it in the papers.

Mr. LIEBELER. You read about it in the newspaper?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald about that incident?

Mrs. GARNER. No, I don't think I did myself. No, I didn't talk to him about that, because it was just before that happened on Canal Street he had put them on the screen and I had my husband take them down, and after that, that is when he was picked up on Canal Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was this incident with the screen? Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. GARNER. Those pamphlets, "Hands off Cuba," or something like that. He had pamphlets on the screen porch in the front, and I told my husband go take those things down, I didn't like them there. He went and told him to take them down, and he said who suggested that, and he said I did and he took them down and never gave us no trouble about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a picture that is marked Exhibit No. 1 to the affidavit of your husband Jesse J. Garner, and I ask you if the leaflet that you see in that picture is a picture of a leaflet like the one Oswald put on the screen?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recognize the person in that picture?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes, that is Lee Oswald. I would recognize him from the back of his head.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be a picture of him handing out pamphlets or sheets of paper on which appears the language, "Hands off Cuba," and some other writing that can't be read.

Mrs. GARNER. They had some other writing on the bottom, but I never read it. I saw this "Hands off Cuba," and I didn't like it on the porch and I made him take them down. That must have been taken on Canal Street; it looks like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the surrounding area, the background of the picture?

Mrs. GARNER. That's what I said, it looks like it. It is either Canal or Royal somewhere. I don't know. It might not be here; I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize the background for sure?

Mrs. GARNER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident----

Mrs. GARNER. Let me get my glasses. Maybe I can see better.

Mr. LIEBELER. When this incident concerning the leaflet on the screen of the porch occurred, was that before or after Oswald had been arrested?

Mrs. GARNER. That was before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before he was arrested?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long before?

Mrs. GARNER. That I don't remember. I don't remember exactly all that, but I know--I can't very well see, but it looks like around here somewhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the two different people you have previously mentioned as having visited Oswald, one the Cuban or Spanish fellow and the other two for a total of three people you saw come to visit Oswald, did you ever see anybody else come to visit in his apartment?

Mrs. GARNER. Not that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. Late in September sometime, as I understand it, this station wagon that brought Oswald's wife to the apartment in the first place returned?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; it did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it not?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see who was driving the station wagon at that time?

Mrs. GARNER. No; I didn't see who was driving it. All I saw was the station wagon.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the person who came in the station wagon that time?

Mrs. GARNER. I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your husband see that person?

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this time.

Mrs. GARNER. Yes; my husband saw her and spoke to her. I never did see her.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you it was a lady, did he not?

Mrs. GARNER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the lady, from reading the newspapers, you and your husband assumed that this was Mrs. Ruth Paine of Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. GARNER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself never met or talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. GARNER. I never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become aware of the fact that Oswald was employed during the time that he lived in your apartment? Did you know anything about his job?

Mrs. GARNER. When he rented the apartment he told me he was working at Reily Coffee Co. on Magazine, whatever you call it. It is a coffee company, and as far as I know I didn't think he worked there as long as he did, because he was always home, unless he worked at night.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that Oswald had been dismissed from the job, or no longer worked at Reily Coffee Co., if you ever learned that?

Mrs. GARNER. I said, it seemed like when he rented the apartment, I didn't think he worked 2 or 3 weeks. Well, but I learned later he didn't get laid off until July 19, something like that, unless they changed shifts, because he was working in the day at first and I used to see him get off the bus in the evening coming home, but then after that I didn't see him any more. He was always sitting on the screen porch reading. He must have been working at night. He was always on the side porch, probably reading all the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say he read a lot?

Mrs. GARNER. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see at any time what he was reading?

Mrs. GARNER. Well, it always was books, like those pocket books and papers, real big books, regular books.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw the names of any of the books?

Mrs. GARNER. No; you couldn't get that near him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else did he do with his spare time besides reading?

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