Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Mr. JENNER. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 5 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate--take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think there is any point in my doing that--I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.

Mr. JENNER. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will locate the things you have described.

The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.

Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier--the first time?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it was.

Mr. JENNER. The witness has mentioned two--what do you call those?

Mrs. PAINE. Chest of drawers.

Mr. JENNER. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet one inch.

Mr. JENNER. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet five inches.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?

Mrs. PAINE. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.

Mr. JENNER. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.

Mrs. PAINE. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. Locate it the best you can.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You think perhaps, around in four places?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.

Mr. JENNER. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."

(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?

Agent HOWLETT. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be utterly impossible.

Mr. JENNER. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right?

Mr. JENNER. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina followed. They had asked to search--I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.

Mr. JENNER. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?

(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)

Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Two or three.

Mr. JENNER. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And for what purpose?

Mrs. PAINE. To see what was in it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?

Mrs. PAINE. That's south instead of east.

Mr. JENNER. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that----

Mrs. PAINE [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You got about what--halfway into the garage facing south?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then, what happened?

Mrs. PAINE. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."

Mr. JENNER. This was in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were then--at that point you were standing where?

Mrs. PAINE. I was at that time standing here [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. And would you remain there--Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the----

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?

Mrs. PAINE. Right here in the middle of this----

Mr. JENNER. I'll get that out of your way----

Mrs. PAINE. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.

Mr. JENNER. She was facing you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, she was.

Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was standing there facing and looking at you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. And you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you were facing north?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"--she had seen some time previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.

Mr. JENNER. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.

Mr. JENNER. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto?

Mrs. PAINE. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.

Mr. JENNER. The wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.

Mr. JENNER. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.

Mr. JENNER. At that time when you stepped on it?

Mrs. PAINE. At that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?

Mrs. PAINE. It wilted.

Mr. JENNER. It drooped?

Mrs. PAINE. It folded.

Mr. JENNER. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. In the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?

Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where do you normally keep it?

Mrs. PAINE. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.

Mr. JENNER. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.

Mr. JENNER. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?

Mrs. PAINE. Take all you want.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.

Agent HOWLETT. That is 3 feet 1 inch.

Mr. JENNER. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?

(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.

Mrs. PAINE. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.

Mr. JENNER. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain that?

Mrs. PAINE. From the same bottom drawer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this is the remainder of that.

Mr. JENNER. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you cut a slip of that for us?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string?

Mrs. PAINE. That's my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."

(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it is heavier; yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.

Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.

Mr. JENNER. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Where is that desk secretary located?

Mrs. PAINE. That desk secretary is in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?

Mrs. PAINE. It was in the middle of the space between the--the middle of the north wall of the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?

Mrs. PAINE. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.

Mr. JENNER. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was then where it is now.

Mr. JENNER. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.

Mr. JENNER. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?

Mrs. PAINE. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November--that same day that I read the note.

Mr. JENNER. That was a Sunday?

Mrs. PAINE. That was.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?

Mrs. PAINE. I opened the flip front and put it in there.

Mr. JENNER. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out--facing toward Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?

Mrs. PAINE. They were not closed.

Mr. JENNER. They were not closed?

Mrs. PAINE. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.

Mr. JENNER. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?

Mrs. PAINE. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.

Mr. JENNER. Why not?

Mrs. PAINE. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and Marina was to the west.

Mr. JENNER. She was to your right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you say you could not have seen them?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were several times--I don't----

Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?

Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.

Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed----

Mrs. PAINE. As it was.

Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed.

Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?

Agent HOWLETT. No.

Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?

Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.

(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?

Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet.

Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?

The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet.

Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?

Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?

Mrs. PAINE. From the east.

Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west?

Mrs. PAINE. I was.

Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block--that's across Westbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's how far?

Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down.

Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn?

Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn.

Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.

Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.

Mr. JENNER. Apology for what?

Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say so?

Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him?

Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered.

Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As well as yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?

Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze.

Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?

Agent HOWLETT. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep?

Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep.

Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall.

Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze?

Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?

Agent HOWLETT. That's right.

Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style.

Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable.

Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?

Mrs. PAINE. This is one.

Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.

Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?

Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play.

Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long.

Mr. JENNER. How deep?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not correct?

Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?

Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.

Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?

Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box.

Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. That evening.

Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you?

Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you working?

Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.

Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?

Mrs. PAINE. The north end.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.

Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.

Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw.

Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw?

Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door?

Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?

Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.

Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?

Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.

Mr. JENNER. The light where?

Mrs. PAINE. In the garage.

Mr. JENNER. The overhead light?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is.

Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center.

Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?

Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.

Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off.

Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality.

Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.

Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on?

Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on.

Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what?

Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.

Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?

Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.

Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were.

Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would know it then too.

Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.

Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.

Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.

The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.

Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry.

Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.

Mrs. PAINE. This is mine.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it.

Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?

Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description--it is microfilm 198.

Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell.

Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out--you have picked out?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.

"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.

Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen?

Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment.

Let's go off the record here for a moment.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.

Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.

LITERATURE

Name _Place Microfilm found No._

Application, the Militant Irving 380 Application slip for FPCC Beckley 416 Application slips for FPCC (187) Irving 96 Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," Irving 330 by James Cannon. Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity Irving 319 with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC. Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to Irving 307 the U.S.," published by FPCC. Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 Irving 308 University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar." Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy Irving 304 and Sectarianism." Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C. Irving 329 Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 201 Book, foreign language, 2 pages Irving 202 Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Irving 313 Paul Sarte Booklet, list of Russian and Communist Irving 309 literatures publications. Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right Irving 311 to Travel" Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960 Irving 320 Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the Irving 310 committed of Democratic Spain. Book, Russian Irving 84 Books, Russian (18) Irving 78-83 Book, Russian Language No. 732648 Irving 112 Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Irving 305 Josepth Hanson

144

Book, "Sofia," dated 1962 Irving 324 Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro" Irving 318 Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming Beckley 410 Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 Historical," by Keiber and Nelson. Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Beckley 409 Historical" Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., Beckley 415 New Orleans. Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Irving 335 St., New Orleans. Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine Beckley 414 St., New Orleans, La. Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Irving 97 Join the FPCC Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Irving 300 Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch. Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Beckley 405 Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962. Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Beckley 401 Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962. Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Beckley 412 Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963. Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Beckley 430 Ala., to Lee and Marie. Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, Beckley 413 re: Ability to translate. Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, Beckley 400 New Orleans, to Oswald. Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Beckley 406 Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, 1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald. Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of Beckley 403 FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963. Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, Beckley 407 FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, New Orleans.

145

Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit Beckley 429 House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead. Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, Irving 363 1963 Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Beckley 445 Party, to Oswald. Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Beckley 438 Press letterhead, to Oswald. Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager Beckley 404 of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald. Magazine, "Friends Word News" Irving 87 Magazine, "The Militant" Irving 85 Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Irving 322 Sept. 12, 1963. Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in Irving 198 black standing behind what appears to be a master of ceremonies dressed in white. Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Irving 191 Minsk, Russia. Newspaper, "The Worker" Irving 86 Newspaper, clipping, re: the President Irving 120 Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper. Irving 98 Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, Irving 270 showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs. John R. Hall. Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and Beckley 417 cartoon regarding defectors). Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Beckley 413 Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway, N.Y.C. Newspapers (7), Russian language Irving 381 Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Irving 380 Worker, with return envelopes to publishers News Press.

146

Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by Irving 317 James P. Cannon. Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Irving 303 Lamont Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Irving 99 Curliss Lamont Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School Irving 312 of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro. Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Irving 315 Rocan Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover Irving 325 Pamphlets, Russian Irving 89-94 Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document Irving 192 Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, Beckley 411 fall term, 1963. Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled Irving 321 "Automation, a Job Killer." Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4) Irving 366 Photos, Fidel Castro (6) Irving 366 Photo, Fidel Castro Irving 368 Photo, female Russian workers in radio Irving 332 factory Photo, Russian workers Irving 331

147

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--as you recall.

Mr. JENNER. You said you would leave that package in precisely the place--wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?

Mrs. PAINE. I have not touched it.

Mr. JENNER. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mrs. PAINE. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.

Mr. JENNER. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?

Mrs. PAINE. You would do well to look at them both.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I am going to do first--I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind?

Mrs. PAINE. This, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6-1/2 inches high and about 6-1/2 inches through.

While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.

Agent HOWLETT. That is 2 feet 11 inches.

Mr. JENNER. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet and three inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, measure the height of the package.

Mrs. PAINE. While you are up there, measure the one behind you.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; we will.

Agent HOWLETT. The height of the package is about seven inches.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how thick through from east to west?

Agent HOWLETT. Seven inches.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.

The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?

Mrs. PAINE. It contains two venetian blinds, both of them are 2 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And they are of the metal variety, are they not?

Mrs. PAINE. They are.

Mr. JENNER. And those blinds are 2 feet 6 inches wide?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain this wrapping paper?

Mrs. PAINE. This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.

Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--for the record.

Mr. JENNER. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call--M. R. Paine."

Mrs. Paine has torn from the package some sticky tape.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?

Mrs. PAINE. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that--I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. It was certainly not part of a general supply of paper.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?

Mrs. PAINE. As you said, yes.

Mr. JENNER. This paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping paper--at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.

Agent HOWLETT. The same shelf in behind where the other package was.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how long?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now.

Mr. JENNER. And in general is it a rectangular package?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?

Agent HOWLETT. No, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, before we open it, what is in that package?

Mrs. PAINE. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not. I mean roll-type.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.

(At this point Agent Howlett complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.

Mrs. PAINE. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet six inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the other one is?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet six inches.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they are opaque?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Neither is metal?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I testified that.

Mr. JENNER. That was your impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.

Mr. JENNER. You, of course--you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?

Agent HOWLETT. About 10-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Painted or enameled white?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett--how many do you have there?

Agent HOWLETT. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?

While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.

Mrs. PAINE. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.

Agent HOWLETT. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.

(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight--what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin--heavy tin?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are----

Agent HOWLETT. The white one is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the cream colored one measured in the like fashion?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. These curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?

Agent HOWLETT. About 2 inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod.

Mr. JENNER. On the cream colored one, and what about the white one?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2-3/8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me?

Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. I appear only to have the translation.

Mr. JENNER. You appear only to have the translation--will you explain that remark?

Mrs. PAINE. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.

Mr. JENNER. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote--I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these--I made a translation at the time and sent them off.

Mr. JENNER. At the time you prepared the originals?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. May I have the translations?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you may.

TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT

Mr. JENNER. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved Agent Howlett in this deposition--Mr. Howlett, would you rise and be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Agent HOWLETT. I do.

Mr. JENNER. State your name, please?

Agent HOWLETT. John Joe Howlett.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Secret Service of the United States?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; special agent.

Mr. JENNER. In the Dallas office?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been present throughout my examination of Mrs. Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted me, have you not?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In making measurements and also in recounting the appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the conditions?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the various measurements that are now recorded in this record?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were you present during the time that I also called figures or ordered descriptions?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And made in your presence?

Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Agent HOWLETT. There is one thing on there--on the window.

Mr. JENNER. Which window?

Agent HOWLETT. The window in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--that's Marina's bedroom, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. She was staying in there--yes.

Agent HOWLETT. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. High or wide?

Agent HOWLETT. Wide--would you like for me to check it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might check it.

Mrs. PAINE. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches--it's identical to the shade we have just measured.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, Mrs. Paine.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record for Mrs. Paine's testimony.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated here at the table, some documents--what are they, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Since November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. Since November 22.

Mr. JENNER. They consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pages?

Mrs. PAINE. Each letter is complete on one page.

Mr. JENNER. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for identification.)

Mrs. PAINE. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence between November 22 and the first date here--December 27.

Mr. JENNER. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions about the exhibit first?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of translations prepared by you?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which you transmitted or delivered?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other fashion to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Or sought to have delivered to her--should I put it that way?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you note throughout this material the means or method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention?

Mrs. PAINE. Each one says how it was sent--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--the first three letters here, I have a note at the top indicating when the translation was made.

Mr. JENNER. When were they made with relation to when the originals were dispatched?

Mrs. PAINE. The first three translations were made later.

Mr. JENNER. How much later?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, depending--the translations were all made on January 26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, December 28 and January 3.

Mr. JENNER. And from what did you make the translation?

Mrs. PAINE. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I cannot now find.

Mr. JENNER. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you wished, you then wrote the final answer?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. In Russian and dispatched it?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they are pages 4 through 7, correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--the other translations were all made at the time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was written and sent.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes I have.

Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe them to be fully accurate.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced Exhibit 277--what are those papers?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which was December 27.

Mr. JENNER. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two or three short notes written by myself to Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in Washington.

There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me to Marina on the same date, December 21.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that before or after you received her card?

Mrs. PAINE. They crossed.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording of the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content of my note, which I have no copy of that.

Mr. JENNER. Notes that are in your hand, are they in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her.

Mr. JENNER. To the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't--I handed this note to Mr. Martin in his home.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered something to him?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Along with some other letters that had come containing contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina and arrived at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family.

Mr. JENNER. As gifts from you and your children to the Martin family?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right; that's correct.

Agent HOWLETT. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the house--the first bedroom--the one which Marina was in, and that picture window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will go off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on your typewriter repaired?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And what date was that that you drove into Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that we drove in on October 14, Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that occasion as well?

Mrs. PAINE. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children went in, and the check stub is dated October 18.

Mr. JENNER. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when you picked up the typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday that I took the typewriter in.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the occasion again to--why you had the typewriter repaired as of that time?

Mrs. PAINE. The original key was incorrect--I had it replaced.

Mr. JENNER. Incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect Russian symbol--Russian language symbol?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you wanted to replace it for what reason--did Lee Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances?

Mrs. PAINE. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching Russian to one student.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else about that incident that you would like to add to the record.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at the moment.

Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have been heretofore advised?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There is nothing?

Mrs. PAINE. This is rather an aside, I would think.

Mr. JENNER. All right, let's go off the record a minute.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. We go back on the record.

In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service as cash. After--about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.

Mr. JENNER. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances?

Mrs. PAINE. I asked John Thorne----

Mr. JENNER. By telephone or direct inquiry face to face?

Mrs. PAINE. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was signing, and by this I meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her.

Mr. JENNER. You left with whom? With John Thorne or with Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. It does look as if I had left it--let's see--given to the hand of John Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, accompanying it was a check?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope.

Mr. JENNER. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.

(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not.

Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with Marina Oswald's signature?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit 277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is not Marina Oswald's official hand.

Mr. JENNER. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is also payable to Marina Oswald; is that your check?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. We will mark it as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And you recall distinctly that you did make them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recognize that endorsement?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Is it in longhand?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. In whose hand?

Mrs. PAINE. That is in Marina Oswald's hand.

Mr. JENNER. And it reads "Marina Oswald," does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--that should be said.

Mr. JENNER. And are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December 28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A and 277-B.)

Mr. JENNER. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to return them all to you at once.

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else, now, that occurs to you?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the Commission in this investigation?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. We have been on and off the record during the course of this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the record by Mr. Howlett or by me?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19-1/2 feet south of the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick.

The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.

Is that correct, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet on the tree in the front, 3 feet from the ground.

Mr. JENNER. I see--I recited it 3 inches and that was in error.

Agent HOWLETT. It should be 6 feet, measured 3 feet from the ground.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have testified this evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. It appears on the left inside portion, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record?

Mrs. PAINE. The translation says:

"DEAR RUTH:

Sends here greetings to you, Micheal and the children and wishes for a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. I am very sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not my fault. I hope that the new year will bring us all better changes. I wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the very best. A great big thank you for all the fine things you did for me.

Sincerely, MARINA.

P.S.--Write if you feel like it, please. Greetings from little June. I kiss you, Marina."

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mrs. Paine.

Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose writing is it?

Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's writing.

Mr. JENNER. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whose is that?

Mrs. PAINE. It is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Whereas, the note on the inside is in Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And this is as you testified--she was able to write English to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the envelope?

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was so enclosed.

Mr. JENNER. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?

Mrs. PAINE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening.

Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else at this point.

Mr. JENNER. I do want to ask you this--while you were translating the Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured--we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I measured that as being located at 19-1/2 feet south of the back porch--of the back fence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in connection with events that day?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I told her.

Mr. JENNER. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the School Book Depository. She recalled that to me in the evening and told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the Commission hearings--I have recalled it since.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49--is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city police?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. The 22d, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under examination by an officer of the Dallas city police?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the Dallas city police with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was it--I was under a good deal of stress at the time.

"AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said county, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Ruth Hyde Paine/w/f/31, 2515 W. Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I have lived at the above address for about 4 years. My husband, Michael and I had been separated for about a year. IN the early winter of 1963, I went to a party in Dallas because I heard that some people would be there that spoke Russian. I was interested in the language. At that party I met Lee Oswald and his Russian wife Marina. About a month later I went to visit them on Neely Street. In May I asked her to stay with me because Lee went to New Orleans to look for work. About two weeks later I took Marina to New Orleans to join her husband. Around the end of September I stopped by to see them while I was on vacation. I brought Marina back with me to Irving. He came in 2 weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. Marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with his wife. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository. Lee applied and was accepted. Lee did not spend last weekend there. He came in about 5 pm yesterday and spent the night. I was asleep this morning when he left for work.

(S) RUTH HYDE PAINE."

Mr. JENNER. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar with her signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am.

Mr. JENNER. Is that her signature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is her signature.

Mr. JENNER. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified.

Mrs. PAINE. (Read instrument referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the Dallas City Police Station?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion did you interpret or translate for Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when she was examined?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page 46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. This is what I particularly remember.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?

Mrs. PAINE. She was indefinite, more so than the statement here.

Mr. JENNER. The statement reads, "I opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it."

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one.

Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall--that was all done by the police.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you--however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close.

Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents of that drawer.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see either of them enter that drawer?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I think I am finished--is there anything you wish to add?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at 7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am glad to help.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been very helpful. Thank you.

Mrs. PAINE. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well.

Mrs. PAINE. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could then sign this deposition.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you on Saturday of last week.

Mrs. PAINE. All right. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you again, and that is all.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAINE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.

We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.

I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but before I do that, will you state your name for the record.

Mr. PAINE. Michael Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth, Irving, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are they located?

Mr. PAINE. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred?

Mr. PAINE. My wife invited Lee and his wife over to supper one evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us approximately when that was?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was in April.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has kept a calendar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife meet the Oswalds at the same time?

Mr. PAINE. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?

Mr. PAINE. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but I think that was in February.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, and I guess Lee came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he came out?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.

So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your wife were separated at that time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you were first separated?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, we have been living apart about a year, I suppose.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time, you mean in October?

Mr. PAINE. It had been a year; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been in October of 1962?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I guess it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you living in Grand Prairie?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?

Mr. PAINE. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you just come----

Mr. PAINE. No; I would just stay for supper in the evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a couple of months, the end of July, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately when she got back to Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or the date she arrived at Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought Oswald's personal and household effects?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was shortly after she returned from her trip?

Mr. PAINE. That would suggest either the same day or the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now----

Mr. PAINE. Go ahead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. PAINE. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there, and the tools were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you used the tools from time to time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a--I was a little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.

I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think there were tent poles in the package?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package?

Mr. PAINE. Also this was--I visualized after I put the package down. I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something--this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.

Mr. PAINE. I was trying to put these in the package to make something that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual package as I visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as Exhibit 1.

(The drawing was marked "Michael Paine Exhibit No. 1".)

Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't think. It remained in the package--nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it rattle at all when you moved it?

Mr. PAINE. No; it didn't rattle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now----

Mr. PAINE. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was too symmetrical.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was too symmetrical?

Mr. PAINE. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said you thought it was about 30 inches long?

Mr. PAINE. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.

I never--I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you estimate the package to be?

Mr. PAINE. The package was about that long. That is 40 inches long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.

Mr. PAINE. I guess about that. That is including the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has indicated a length of 37-1/2 inches.

Mr. PAINE. You had two twelves. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it wrapped tightly?

Mr. PAINE. Pretty snug.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?

Mr. PAINE. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you moved it several times?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose it was the--I had a .22 when I was a kid.

Mr. LIEBELER. A .22 caliber rifle?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.

I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never placed another pipe----

Mr. PAINE. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package.

Mr. PAINE. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside.

Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it tied tightly?

Mr. PAINE. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. How wide was the package?

Mr. PAINE. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, I think that would go around the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to draw something additional here?

Mr. PAINE. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was not as wide?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on No. 1?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end "B" and drawing in another line.

Mr. PAINE. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, between 7 and 8 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mark that "C".

Mr. PAINE. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?

Mr. PAINE. [Marking.]

Mr. LIEBELER. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height.

Mr. PAINE. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your hand actually close around it?

Mr. PAINE. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has sketched----

Mr. PAINE. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about 2 inches thick, including the blanket.

When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold of the blanket at that end?

Mr. PAINE. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--I can't recall exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, your testimony is that at end "B"?

Mr. PAINE. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the time so I was thinking about that.

I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well wrapped up.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on our drawing.

Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark "D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?

Mr. PAINE. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn.

What impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package?

Mr. PAINE. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this pipe here shown didn't--the package. I must draw another package then. The package must have sloped.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember how it was?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a blanket, I mean it was a--reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my mind into this package.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone right to the end of the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the edge of the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you a----

Mr. PAINE. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of the colors there.

I think I would have--I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in the garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you want to with it.

Mr. PAINE. I would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this absolutely.

It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate for, my memory of the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there were lights in the garage, were there not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have them on when you were working in there?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said at one point you stored the blanket under your saw?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had lights near your saw, didn't you?

Mr. PAINE. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that shines on the table.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is no light directly over the saw?

Mr. PAINE. No; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the colors of the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the impression I had of the blanket.

Mr. LIEBELER. And those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern of the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal privacy, so I don't investigate something.

Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. I remember that feeling.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is a good----

Mr. LIEBELER. It is similar?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with brown thread, is it not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Around some of the edges at any rate?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that was in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know, but I didn't look at it that closely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on this deposition.

(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which has been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if you remember?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually remember whether it was or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to be similar?

Mr. PAINE. That is about as good as could come to my memory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one string wrapped on the blanket?

Mr. PAINE. No; I think it was wrapped at both ends.

Mr. LIEBELER. With two strings?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you notice that pin?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the whole----

Mr. REDLICH. By "this end" what do you mean?

Mr. PAINE. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want you just to continue to work with it and take your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other.

Mr. PAINE. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one you saw in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it is not quite big enough here.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this end, you are referring to the end marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that end is too thick.

Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?

Mr. PAINE. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same thickness, calling the width from type--calling the rifle and the scope of the rifle the width.

Mr. LIEBELER. The width?

Mr. PAINE. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the package and not quite so--I would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much that I can't grab that feel of pipe.

That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been two pipes there.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the "A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember the package in your garage or the same width?

Mr. PAINE. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end of the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. The "B" end?

Mr. PAINE. As I have it wrapped is a little bit too full.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that appears to be thicker----

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Than the package that was in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is what, not as thick nor not as wide?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering?

Mr. PAINE. Quite so tapered.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that approximately the length of the package that you remember in your garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or another, I don't know what he did with this end.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the "A"?

Mr. PAINE. There was a string, there were two strings on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you estimated the length of the package before, would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in this particular package?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think it was--I think the package is still all right if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was the kind of length that I would grab there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if you folded this flap over here at "A"?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us what it is?

Mr. PAINE. That is 41 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after going through the process that we have gone through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of that package?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you thought it weighed?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than one tube.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did picture more than one tube----

Mr. PAINE. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to be--there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say----

Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President?

Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to?

Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. By the what?

Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being?

Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and Peggs on November 24, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the police station.

Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24?

Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday?

Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.

Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I spent at the police station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on that day?

Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. PAINE. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he had no--by leave of the police that he could do this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent?

Mr. PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more objectionable. I mean there is more----

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?

Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the 22d?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life reporters were there, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. At Irving?

Mr. PAINE. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at night.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left?

Mr. PAINE. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the Bell Helicopter plant on that day?

Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter plant?

Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall previously I thought about it and I said, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at Irving that evening?

Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the next morning.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?

Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.

Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that time?

Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but----

Mr. LIEBELER. This is what----

Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview with the Dallas police?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before?

Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I can truthfully remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a device----

Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you have any idea what this might be?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this around your own house or garage in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle.

Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't have got the sense of pipe.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?

Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an object.

Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in fact, a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event.

Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of paper, the difference is pretty slight.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers, however?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would say there is a difference.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp than 364?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me this is more common.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364?

Mr. PAINE. 364, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of paper?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags made of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods?

Mr. PAINE. These expanding rods that are----

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no idea where they came from?

Mr. PAINE. Let's see, no, those came down from--I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been--I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.

Mr. PAINE. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?

Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the fall of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32-1/2 inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their----

Mr. PAINE. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November 21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can remember as being in that garage.

Mr. PAINE. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?

Mr. PAINE. No, I wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d?

Mr. PAINE. I think just about 3 o'clock.

Mr. LIEBELER. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances under which you first heard of the assassination on that day?

Mr. PAINE. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time you had heard only that the President had been shot, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was no connection with Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the assassination at that time?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. Went back to the lab and then----

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that Lee worked there, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said.

Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that account alone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?

Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness. This seemed in character.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to his nature or his character.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination and prior to the time that you heard Oswald----

Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say?

Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said almost nothing except----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being involved?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the theatre. But that was enough connection for me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of Americans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, Tex.?

And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping tape with which the packages are reconstructed?

Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is 3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, this is 3-inch tape.

Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I had the impression it was a 2-inch tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired about this question before?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will ask you some more questions about it.

Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on November 22?

Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you remember?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. The desk--I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom drawer.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably made this bag at your place?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142?

Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364.

Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the garage itself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never been mentioned between yourself and your wife?

Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is--we may have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?

Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking people, Ruth has mentioned the name.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them?

Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about them?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall what she said about them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, subsequent to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter Gregory's name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark.

Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall?

Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover moved to their house later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. PAINE. I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them?

Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers?

Mr. PAINE. Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he introduced me to some--let's say no; I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he a close friend of yours?

Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.

Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he?

Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist?

Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him?

Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know----

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?

Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either.

Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt?

Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but I may have shaken his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name--I don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten his name at this time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis?

Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an interpreter at the police station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans.

Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Florence McDonald?

Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she?

Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who does?

Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I haven't met him myself, I don't believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at your office at one time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me more than once on that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order to contact these women?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to call on her and Marina?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?

Mr. PAINE. She did; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.

Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. Shasteen?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex.

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad haircut.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.

Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?

Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, Supermarket?

Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile?

Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own?

Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen.

Mr. LIEBELER. What model?

Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV?

Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own?

Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, '55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?

Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.

Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that?

Mr. PAINE. '55.

Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?

Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way.

Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission.

Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he practicing on the station wagon or----

Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an airplane.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch.

Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?

Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls?

Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina pocket money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?

Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?

Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to Irving is?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone calls?

Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money.

Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?

Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical records?

Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?

Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker.

Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these periodicals?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that?

Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that conversation.

Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why?

Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?

Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?

Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?

Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. I probably would.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?

Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person?

Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during the time that Marina lived at your house?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?

Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a position to say. I think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in respect to those meals?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses of the household?

Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I would have been surprised had he done so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left?

Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe.

Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your presence?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he would be a happier person.

Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was responsible for his losing a job?

Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer.

This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?

Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused him to lose jobs?

Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the notorious FBI.

Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his--also, I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI?

Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee seemed to resent that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, "Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English?

Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter?

Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and I didn't really shift attention too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards?

Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have read it correctly in her hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not, approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his birthday was October 18?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he may have celebrated the next day but----

Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection is that you saw him each weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last weekend that you saw him then?

Mr. PAINE. If that is the one prior, two weekends, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that weekend or after that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read the letter or not?

Mr. PAINE. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again.

Mr. LIEBELER. So we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?

Mr. PAINE. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she----

Mr. PAINE. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Look at it when she wanted you to look at it?

Mr. PAINE. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind looking at it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?

Mr. PAINE. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had apparently known and deceived her in this matter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little charm made out of Mexican peso.

Mr. PAINE. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to Marina and she never--I can't remember whether she realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the assassination, with your wife?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a record of Mexican music?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know that until now. I don't recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of October up to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald--when I met them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was allergic to them?

Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me so.

Mr. LIEBELER. They affected her greatly?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.

But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager that she should learn English, and when--Ruth told me that Marina thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until she could make her own way here.

It added--Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much.

Mr. LIEBELER. When she was home learning Russian from Marina?

Mr. PAINE. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad with boredom, I would think. So that it--we were somewhat saddened, or I think Ruth was, I think we shared--Ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And she was a nice companion for Ruth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of thing?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them?

Mr. PAINE. I saw them quite recently, 2 weeks ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many curtain rods were there then?

Mr. PAINE. There might be as many as four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there ever any more than that?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them down, or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at any time?

Mr. PAINE. They never particularly impressed themselves on my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those are all the questions I have.

TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK

The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963.

Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in touch with you, did he not?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time.

Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. Graduated in 1950.

I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of 1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956.

Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you the exact dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that adequate?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what circumstances?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and on up through now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.

Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had taken Marina to help her for the time being.

That was the reference made to him prior to having met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael Paine told you about Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value.

They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him.

Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the meeting said prior to the film starting.

They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently she had had connections during her college days but had severed relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the film.

After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior.

Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. Stevenson came to Dallas?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. I don't remember the exact date.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. He didn't say what General Walker had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker either by words or by his deeds?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular violent thoughts towards General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I really don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which Stevenson had had his difficulty?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the General Walker group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as General Walker?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to you, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, intelligent, or was he not that way?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement. After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about economics.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his attitude?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different avenue.

Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what he said and what you said and what the argument was about.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee.

Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then.

I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that.

I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad to work for him for the salary I got.

He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to know if I thought that was fair or not?

And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the work, and my wage is comparable to my investment.

He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil liberties.

I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine job, a real good job, I have forgotten.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what he said.

He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a good job as far as civil rights were concerned?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him placing emphasis on the way he said it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other government official, during the course of his conversation with you?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was after?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any government official or toward the government in general? Would that be a fair statement?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down.

Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards.

I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this might possibly extend to law enforcement officials.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of authority? There was resentment of his employers?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the only meeting you ever had with Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation with him during that time at the ACLU meeting?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in reference to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist."

Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist and indicated he was not a Communist?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those theories?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you----

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he stated that it is worse than here. He did say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia than it is in the United States?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. And the State exploited the worker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you any desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to go to any other country?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. To me; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or Communist group?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No. His only comment was that, "I am a Marxist."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member of any group, Marxist or Communist group?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that he defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist, now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red, and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be said, and I like to talk too.

We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was more of an argument.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist or Marxist group?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of your conversation with him?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that occasion?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we talked more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the Marines?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had been in the Marines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his impressions while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the Soviet Union were a general remark?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of job he had?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards, if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic firm or electrical industry.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the Soviet Union other than you have already told us?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any particular sense of humor to you?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your argument with Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what Michael said?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind.

He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you have the same impression.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your (conversation) discussion with Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react.

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar experiences?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political questions of the time that you discussed?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from the news media that I heard this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really.

Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child prior to that time.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and Marina said I am talking too Texan.

At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have a compliment. At least I felt complimented.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to her in English?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment.

At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean I talked to her rather than with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second child. Is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for his future shop.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior to his buying the land.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend.

I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine had given in Los Angeles is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person, and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like that. They were just very, very different.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been active in the affairs of the Communist Party?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does, that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That was Michael's comment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000, and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he didn't have the money.

I had that impression because he commented that there was time for him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000, for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had, if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that he had gotten it from his father.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't know. These are impressions that I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the purpose of visiting his father?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this was the discussion prior to his leaving.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell Helicopter business. I am aware of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on Bell Helicopter business?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would have told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing on him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him shortly after the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he bought this tract in Irving?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in, they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit.

Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, this is official that the President of the United States has been fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital, and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile tears in seriousness.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact that the President had been fired at?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and drink my can of Metrecal.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with Michael?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both in the lab?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the President had been fired at?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned from lunch?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had died.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that.

And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to the Texas School Book Depository.

I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do such an act.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, "That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit----

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between you and Michael Paine, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works."

And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through that the Oswald fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun."

And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten.

We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything personal, and we discussed it.

That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression----

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention Oswald's name?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing of oppression and worry at that particular time.

It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, his was the name that came to my mind, possibly.

I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they come to mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very shortly after the word had come through?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported that--can we go back just a little bit?

Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Surely.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald works.

Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.

Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the description given fitted Oswald?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald was--works in the School Book Depository.

They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.

Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the FBI?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him."

And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would have been what he meant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael didn't want to advise the FBI?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, the least little bit.

I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can.

At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a United States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the future.

It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I got his license number of his car, also.

The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs said on the fence.

If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check and faithfully check it out.

I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had him arrested on the spot.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude that you explained in the situation you have just described?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, "Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, "No, I take a man at his word."

He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from Washington?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details.

At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the Commission should know about in connection with the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination.

In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is on the surface.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events leading up to the assassination?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have avoided the President being shot.

He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of approximately 27 inches.

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches different from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the length of about 27 inches?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in reference to the weapon.

Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't believe in violence at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at this point?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is important.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel that I know Michael fairly well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any judgment about her character?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person.

I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to love him as much as I love my brother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the assassination, do you?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. Thank you, Mr. Krystinik.

Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the transcript, is that so?

Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.

Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none changed.

"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on page 447.

Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.

Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.

Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; changed here.

Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not changed.

Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.

Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; changed here.

Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be "apolitical".

Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".

Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as "kidnaped"; changed here.

Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.

Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was misprinted as "huband"; changed here.

Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not changed.

Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed here.

Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.

Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed here.

Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.

Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.

Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government." appear to be missing from the Testimony.

Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; changed here.

Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as "Manantov"; all have been changed here.

Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".

Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as "expresed"; changed here.

Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.

Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; changed here.

Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".

Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and capitalized that way.

Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.

Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.

Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.

Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.

Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".

Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you know".

Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg.

Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in that position.

Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.

Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.

Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed here.

Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".

Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".

Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".

Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".

Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".

Spotted a typo or a problem in this chapter? Tell us