Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (09 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next morning.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican Republic?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is the first time I have ever been there.

Mr. JENNER. When next were you there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The next time we were with--let's see--yes; we were--my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night.

Mr. JENNER. Just spent overnight?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, on our way to Haiti in June--I think the first or second of June in 1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.

Mr. JENNER. On this present trip?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican Republic?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; to the best of my memory--yes; I remember now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody told me--I don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and never was able to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I remember making that statement. I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.

Naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, again, it is purely speculation on our part.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, I have to pursue it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By reading the papers, you know--we had no other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you see--especially I remember reading in one of the papers that----

Mr. JENNER. Which papers are these--foreign language papers?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife before the assassination that he was going to get some money.

Mr. JENNER. So when you read that article----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When I read that article, then the idea started coming--arising in my imagination.

Mr. JENNER. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. But you knew of no such thing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in dismal poverty.

Mr. JENNER. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from Oswald--I don't remember when--before we left the United States, saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost that card.

Mr. JENNER. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in December of 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a letter to her.

Mr. JENNER. From where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime last fall."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us no end of difficulty, from every point of view.

Mr. JENNER. That is what you meant by misfortune?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, actually,----

Mr. JENNER. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? What was wrong with what you did?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.

Mr. JENNER. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is all correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you told me all about that in some detail.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have told me about that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." You have told me about that course of events.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that is what you had in mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is exactly right.

Mr. JENNER. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two sentences.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own bootstraps?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind--it made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a mental blackout.

Mr. JENNER. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have been taken."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is my very strong opinion, that better precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at the time to protect the President.

Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. But the very first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, Lee, Lee--and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"

And he said, "I guess that is the name."

Mr. JENNER. That occurred to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That occurred to me.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as you heard the name Lee?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic.

Mr. JENNER. Did you think about the rifle you had seen?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Immediately something occurred in my mind--the rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a gun there.

But my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, and out of contact with events.

The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers.

Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.

Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you hear that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I read in the papers some place--he was getting regular checks.

Mr. JENNER. That didn't score with your recollection, did it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I just read that in the papers some place.

Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me to make any conclusions.

Mr. JENNER. This letter was written, I take it--it is dated December 12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but it contains all the facts----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it looks to me that this is the original.

Mr. JENNER. That is your signature on the letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 12, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have any of your handwriting on it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it is printed.

Mr. JENNER. Typed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Typed, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it looks like that envelope.

Mr. JENNER. What is the date of the stamp cancellation?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. December 13, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.

Mr. JENNER. And that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anybody else?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he in turn had been murdered.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And his trial would never take place?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering doubts?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information of anybody else being involved?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No information.

Mr. JENNER. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was--that somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the colony of foreigners--Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti, most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.

Mr. JENNER. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive from their homeland?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Purely; yes--purely. As you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that subject.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do I know what?

Mr. JENNER. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss was not intended to imply that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.

Mr. JENNER. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, which I assume you will.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I wish you the best of luck.

Mr. JENNER. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February 2, 1964?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the letter was enclosed?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written.

Mr. JENNER. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I started doing geological work in Haiti in 1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.

I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the Cuban situation.

In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip----

Mr. JENNER. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the Central American countries?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes--in 1961--and started preparing this project from then on.

Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for Haiti--at the end of May 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, did you not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The first part of May 1963?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About 2 weeks?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington.

Mr. JENNER. Visited your daughter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were attempting to interest?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting this contract.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued in connection with the Haiti venture.

Am I correct about that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the right?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a very long article. A magnificent success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip----

Mr. JENNER. That is a headline?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Headline.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Shall I make a short resume of that?

Mr. JENNER. I would prefer--can you translate that literally?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "The recent trip to the United States of America by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.

"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, who was at that time in Europe.

"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest financial companies in New York which does business in the millions of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer periods.

"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.

"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."

Mr. JENNER. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described.

Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, New York.

"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.

Mr. JENNER. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.

Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion literature with respect to your Haitian venture?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the respect that they acquaint the possible investor with the personalities involved.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. Tardieu.

Mr. JENNER. What is his first name?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian Government.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is domiciled in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard Joseph Charles?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the letter I received.

(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas.

The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. Raigorodsky; is that correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."

Is what I have said correct?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. And on your letterhead--George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, Dallas 1, Tex.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand--one a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three documents.

The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.

The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."

Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also enclose the third document, which is a diagram of----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of the planned development in Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand "Credits available for these industries--George De M., Dallas, September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which you--excuse me.

Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is it not?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. There is some longhand on it, do you see that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your longhand?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In the upper right-hand corner----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It shows the possibility for----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resorts."

Mr. JENNER. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the word "Caracol." Read those words.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach."

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands encircled, there appears more writing.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities on this island."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Just "oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have you explain it all later.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Our Shada concession."

Mr. JENNER. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have already identified in the record.

Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Brown and Root built this dam."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around--between the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center of this island here--there is an inscription. This appears in the area--there is an X there--an airplane indication Hinche and there is some writing. What is that?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Ibolele Hotel."

Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an area, the chief town of which appears to be what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lescayes.

Mr. JENNER. And what is written there?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Oil possibilities."

Mr. JENNER. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. It started--it already started by my previous work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.

I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which--

Mr. JENNER. Of what country?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity to present a geological survey of Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. What was that to be for?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was to search and study the oil and gas and all the mineralogical points of the whole country.

Mr. JENNER. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This is the only purpose I have--purely business promotional project.

Mr. JENNER. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or group?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; no other nation could use my maps, and no other project, except our own commercial and geological project--nothing else.

Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.

On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his maps, and we pursue our own work there.

I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss assistant. I employed--I am employing an American geologist right now, recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.

I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which--for which the Haitian Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay $20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.

This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, and I am pursuing my geological work.

Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because I appreciate--all I am getting at is the general description of the project, and its good faith.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. I hope that this will be sufficiently justified in good faith.

Mr. JENNER. And these documents we have identified are documents which you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With the thought of having him eventually participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.

Mr. JENNER. Such as?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Such as development of small industries, development of oil production, development of new hotels and new resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I think has excellent opportunities for American investments.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in connection with the assassination of the President?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I think that they should have sent away from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to jail, but sent away from the town.

Mr. JENNER. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind.

Mr. JENNER. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, and he was target practicing with it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not know, whether they had that knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have known.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel----

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They must have had that information.

Mr. JENNER. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they should have done what?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they should have--in my opinion, they shouldn't have let him come back to the United States--No. 1.

And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15," for identification.)

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. All these contracts in Haiti have been made official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I think that will explain it.

Mr. JENNER. Fine.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could talk for hours about this project, because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.

Mr. JENNER. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.

It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is correct.

"Dear George:

"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you.

"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."

Mr. JENNER. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the words "It seems."

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."

Mr. JENNER. Dimitri is your brother?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there is a longhand note.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I hope too--that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.

"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss."

Mr. JENNER. Dated?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Wednesday, January 29.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You just keep that original.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This paragraph?

Mr. JENNER. The whole card.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.

"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas.

"George."

Mr. JENNER. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the crimes in Dallas"?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I mean the assassination of the President and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the assassination by Oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one after another.

Mr. JENNER. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the flesh?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never; no. On TV you mean?

Mr. JENNER. No.

Did you know him when you were in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him when you were in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; not one indication.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not join?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am glad to hear that.

Mr. JENNER. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any business advantage.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the fact; is it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of the whole project. It may be all for the best.

Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily to the--what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting forth the background of information on a holding company that you were developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "Haitian Holding Company."

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. "August 1, 1962."

Mr. JENNER. I think not--but if you will hold a minute. What I have just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.

I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil possibilities.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is pertinent and should be brought out?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember any.

Mr. JENNER. None occurs to you?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you could do. All the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much as you can?

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at some inconvenience?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I hope I have been helpful to some extent.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that you would like to read it over.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Fine.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability.

Mr. JENNER. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow.

If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it.

I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive.

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, in the course of your deposition which I am about to take?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. George S. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Why "S"? The "S" doesn't belong there at all.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he acknowledged that it does.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. S?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Sergei.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a brother by the same name Sergei, and he had a son by the name Sergei. Maybe he wants to add the letter to our name.

Mr. JENNER. No. It shows in the records for many, many years.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never knew that. Sergei is his father's name--that is what it is.

Mr. JENNER. You have a brother whose name is Sergei, do you not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Sergei Michail Fomenko.

Give me your full maiden name. Your name as you were born and given to you by your parents.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name will be Eugenia.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have no middle name. Just Fomenko.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother's name was Tatiana?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Tatiana. My father, Michail.

Mr. JENNER. And your father was Michail L.?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is for--his father was Lev.

Mr. JENNER. You were born in China?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Our information is it was at Harbin.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nearest town?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nearest town to what?

Mr. JENNER. Harbin.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would not--I cannot say.

Mr. JENNER. What part of China?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is Manchuria. The northern part of China, close to the Siberian border.

Mr. JENNER. You mean the Russian-Chinese border?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a sister?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall, we had a--we had three portraits in the house, of children--my portrait, my brother's portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. And the portrait--she was about 3 or 4 years old. I don't know how, where did they get that idea, or was I actually told--but she is supposed to be my half-sister--Alexandra her name was supposed to be. And I think my father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. We have never had any curiosity about it.

Mr. JENNER. You are a naturalized citizen of this Nation, are you not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you naturalized on April 6, 1936?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No--couldn't. I came here in 1938. How could you possibly get that?

Mr. JENNER. All right. I am misadvised. I was looking at the wrong thing. You were naturalized when?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was 1945, but I cannot be absolutely sure. I have my papers in the hotel. 1944 or 1945, maybe it is 1944. If you want the exact date, I can easily get it for you. Do you actually have information, naturalized in 1936?

Mr. JENNER. No, I don't. I have your immigration record here. I will find it in a moment. You became a U.S. citizen in proceedings in the U.S. district court, in New York City, February 28, 1945.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1945.

Mr. JENNER. Were you born on May 5, 1914?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Your parents, were they Russian citizens?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father took a Chinese passport, and I cannot tell you whether he already had it when I was born, or whether he took one later. But I believe he took one later. He took probably one later, when they sold the railroad to the Reds, you know. That is when he took the Chinese passport.

Mr. JENNER. He was born in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother was born in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To my knowledge, yes. They were living a few years in China before I was born.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in what business or occupation or government service was your father engaged?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My father was in charge of the Far Eastern railroad.

Mr. JENNER. For what country?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For China. He was working directly with the Chinese Government and with Chinese officials, with Chinese people. And then in 1925, when the Chinese sold the railroad----

Mr. JENNER. When what?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1925, the Chinese people sold the railroad to the Russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the Trans-Siberian Railroad. My father resigned. And he received quite a lot of money from that. He had been in the service for quite a few years.

Mr. JENNER. You were 11 years old then?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1925; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of this event?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I knew about that. I cannot tell you--that is recollections of the past. And he started to build another railroad on his own called HoHi Railroad.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

You came to this country on August 4, 1938.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right; San Francisco.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, your father, as you said, was director of a Chinese Eastern railroad.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I was looking for some papers here. The Chinese sold the railroad to Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That was in 1925?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is how I understood it.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, your father ceased at that time to be director of the Chinese Eastern Railroad.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. He resigned, and in fact we were planning to come to the United States, the whole family. We wanted to come to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just because it is not our country to live there forever. We were brought up with white people, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to the Russians?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because from what I know they wanted him to take a Communist passport, and he refused.

Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is from what I know he is supposed to have Chinese passport.

Mr. JENNER. Was he anti-Communist?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. He was--not the chief, but the elderly friend for the Scouts. We had a wonderful Scout organization, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. He was very, very active in that. He was sort of like a patron for it. We have a marvelous organization in China. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in the world yet--how well it was conducted.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what happened to your father eventually?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We never could, since 1941, right after Pearl Harbor----

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. After Pearl Harbor, we didn't have any communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. We tried to check through the Red Cross and find out. Nothing could be done. We just couldn't find out. Whenever I saw some people that returned from China, came over, and whenever I asked them what happened to my parents, did you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't know, they just disappeared. Then in 1957, when I saw my brother, he told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in 1945 and he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. Father was killed by the Communists.

Mr. JENNER. Which Communists?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I don't know which ones--the Chinese or Reds or Japanese--I don't know who. And he was taken on the railroad--that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere and shoot you. And my brother told me he died in 1941. I don't know how he found out. I assume and I think that the American government helped him, because he is in rather secret work. He could not possibly do it, having parents----

Mr. JENNER. This is your brother who lives out in California?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you eventually--before you came to the United States, were you married?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was married to my first husband.

Mr. JENNER. Did you marry in China?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the name of your first husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He had a few first names, and to tell you the truth I don't know which one is the right one. I cannot say. Because half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called him by the other name.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The first name was Valentin, and the second one was Bob--they called him Bob. So which one is right, I don't know. But I liked Bob better.

Mr. JENNER. What was his last name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His last name was Bogoiavlensky.

Mr. JENNER. And you were married when?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we were married in 1932, in the fall.

Mr. JENNER. In what business or profession was your husband engaged when you were married?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, at the time when we were married, he was--we were both working, making designs and constructions--making plans and building houses together.

Mr. JENNER. Were you associated in business?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't exactly business. I don't know--it is not done like it is done in the United States. We just knew how to build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had the project--somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with contractors and had the building constructed. And then I believe he was also working in the--the Japanese were building their airport.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Harbin. And he was helping and surveying the grounds or something. This I don't know, because I wasn't present--something on this order. And that is what really actually made us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the Japanese started to grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants. They wanted to keep everything very, very secret. So quite a few of our friends just disappeared overnight.

And then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already, completely beaten to a pulp and so on. Quite a few things started to go on. And then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. We took a train and went south, and went to Shanghai, and lived in Shanghai, until we were ready to come to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. While you were in China, were you and your husband--did you engage as a dancing team?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was dancing quite well.

You see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job somewhere. So he was helping me. He helped me as a partner. And I danced a solo.

We did that in Tientsin. And then Shanghai.

Mr. JENNER. And in order to support yourselves----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were a dancing team.

You see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were doing very well really. Fate does strange things to you--throws you from one profession to another. You think it is the greatest tragedy--I will tell you later what happened to me--and it is the best, actually.

So it was working out very well. We were quite successful. And then something happened later.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you change your name at this period of your life?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We changed the name when we started dancing.

Mr. JENNER. And you changed your name to what?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. LeGon. We picked up the name out of the dancing magazine. But with this name--you see how it happens. You get so involved that you have to stick to it. You cannot just--you knew--because some people know you by this name, then you start with another name, and it sounds ridiculous. But since then already we had it. And we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it, because personally I don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is not fair for the country to use a name like Bogoiavlensky, or a name like De Mohrenschildt. If it would be up to me, I would cut the other one down.

It took me 3 months to learn to pronounce that name.

Mr. JENNER. There have been some people that because of the name LeGon--that you had some French. You are not French?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, I will tell you. I had to start in New York to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had terrible trouble to get any kind of work. He was making $18 a week.

Mr. JENNER. In 1938?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was 1940, 1941, when my little girl was born.

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter was born in this country?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your daughter's name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why I could not dance any more. I had to drop completely dancing and everything.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned your daughter, let's cover her.

What was her given name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her given name was Jeanne Elinor LeGon. Also after a dancer.

Mr. JENNER. Eleanor Powell?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, exactly. And being unaware--you see, in Europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case.

In the States the last name is the one that counts--the previous names don't mean much.

So when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a legal paper of changing our name to LeGon. So in her birth certificate I put down Jeanne Elinor LeGon and just in case, Bogoiavlensky, so just in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown somewhere--I was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be put out of the country or something--she was born here, and that is her name, and I put that Bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate.

And that started the whole uproar.

And besides--I lost her birth certificate once when I needed it for a passport--I could not find it, because I was looking under "L"--I told them to look under "L". And for months they were looking under "L" and then it dawned on me, did I put, by any chance, Bogoiavlensky.

So they filed it under "B".

Well, it is my own fault--I asked for it. I can't get rid of that name.

It is a pretty name. In fact, it is a very novel name. But I don't think it belongs in this country. I think it is ridiculous for people to have such long names. If you are a priest's family, that would be fine. But not for us.

Mr. JENNER. When was your daughter born?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She mas born April 30, 1941.

Mr. JENNER. I might go back with your husband.

Where was your husband born, your first husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, he was born in--I think in Russia--and brought out as a very, very little boy. And I never met his father. His mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. I only knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful.

He had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in the war with China and Japan. We never could find them. One of them was with the British forces and another with the French forces. And I understand one was sent to Hong Kong, and the other remained in Shanghai. And we never heard from them.

So that is one of the really big tragedies. We were anxious to find them, because we were going to get them over here. They had good heads. They could grow up very fine.

Mr. JENNER. You have always regarded the United States as a haven?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. It was the country by choice, because we could have gone to Europe. But I didn't want anything--this was from so and so. I said I wanted to have a country where everything is new and fresh, and if I break something I go to the store and buy another one.

I never have anything you can break. It was just because I was brought up with furniture with little gilded things in it, I don't want any part of it. I have been in Europe about 15 times after.

Mr. JENNER. I know you have.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I enjoy being there for a few weeks. But I would never live in Europe. I would not be happy.

If I had to, I would live there, but I don't like--the whole atmosphere doesn't appeal to me.

Mr. JENNER. There have been various reports on your views with respect to Russia and communism.

What are your views?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I am?

Mr. JENNER. What are your views?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My views?

Well, I tell you. I am not a Communist by all means at all. I think that revolution in Russia was inevitable. It is just horrible that it happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people----

Mr. JENNER. You are talking now about the revolution of the 1920's?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, I think.

Mr. JENNER. 1918, 1919.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1917, 1918--that is when it started. I know in fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never any conversation--too many people were killed. In fact, from what I understand, all the families of my father and mother were killed, too. So we never had any conversation about it. We just were kept away from the whole thing.

And, beside, I deliberately stayed away from all of that. I said it is none of my business, I have never been there, I don't know what it is all about, I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be prejudiced to anything.

But after, later on, when I grew up and the revolution was necessary, it is just too bad it happened like that.

And I do hope that the country eventually will come out and become human again, and I think it is getting to be more and more human.

But it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have. That was the most wonderful thing. When I came here--unfortunately, I landed in New York. I didn't want to, but my brother was in New York and he said you come right away to New York.

I love California, because of the climate. I like sunshine. So I came to New York, and New York, of course, was very depressing to me, because it was dirty. And I had an idea that all the white countries and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. They are supposed to be well mannered.

And then I came in in that awful New York. And, of course, I had almost no money. I had to use subways. It was very, very bad.

But then I saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying anything he wants to. And I said, what is going on? They said he is just saying something--I forgot what it was all about. But how people were talking freely and expressing themselves openly.

Mr. JENNER. They had a right to do that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; And in China--you see, we were always--we never could say anything openly, for many reasons.

First, I don't know, but I assume there was a lot of Red spies probably everywhere. So we could never say too much.

Then there were Japanese that came over. We couldn't say anything again.

So we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will happen to you. That is the atmosphere that I was brought up in.

I wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because sometimes he says things--of course, being European, he likes to see Russia.

I said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for 2 days, you would be shot in 2 days. He doesn't feel that there is a place, places that you cannot be like he is. You just cannot do it. Maybe that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he wants to say, and people misinterpret it. People misinterpret it, and then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else, and then they say he says something bad. This is really terrible. This is many, many times, you know. But he learned his lesson now. Living in Haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with Papa Doc. You know the regime there now. He is quite a dictator. He is going to be pronounced the king now, at the end of May. And, of course, there is tremendous opposition against it. It is not for our sake, but for our Haitian friends' sake, we cannot say anything.

So he learned a little bit of the atmosphere where you cannot talk.

He said--"I am so glad we went to Haiti, because I have no desire to go to Russia."

That was wonderful. It was music to my ears.

I said, "Now, you learn."

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But some day I hope, anyway. I would like to see it. I would like to go down south to the Crimea which I understand is beautiful, the Black Sea. I would like to see all the world.

I saw quite a lot.

But I would like to see that, too.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother, Sergei, he came over to this country, did he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What?

Mr. JENNER. Don't you have a brother by the name of----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he what?

Mr. JENNER. He came to this country?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes. I believe he came in 1930.

Mr. JENNER. And he is still here?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where is he located now?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He is in Woodland Hills, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. Engaged in----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is 4560 Deseret Drive.

He is with North American Aircraft Co. He just switched. He was with Ramo Wooldridge. A few years before that he was with Linnet Co. in Beverly Hills, and before that with Howard Hughes, and before that he was with Berkeley, University at Berkeley, doing some research.

Mr. JENNER. He attended the University of Chicago?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He attended after the war. But he originally came over to study in Berkeley. He graduated from Berkeley. But then when the war broke out he volunteered--he was 2-1/2 years in service. But he was never sent over, because he did so much important research work, that they kept him here.

And he met Professor Rasby of Chicago University. And then he went to work with him in Chicago University for very, very little money, but he had all the facilities for his work. That is where he met his second wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, I hope. Four little kinds, darling home.

Mr. JENNER. And you eventually were divorced from your first husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He retained the name Robert LeGon?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't change his name back to Bogoiavlensky?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

By the way, do you know he is in a rest home?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There was a lot of unpleasantness around in that time, because he was already going off completely.

Mr. JENNER. And you were divorced from him in the summer of 1959?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no, no; before that. It was 1957, spring of 1957. Yes; it was in the spring of 1957.

I believe it was first of May or something. I don't remember exactly. But it is pretty close.

Mr. JENNER. And you married your present husband, George De Mohrenschildt, in the summer of 1959?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1959, yes; in June, towards the end of June.

Mr. JENNER. And your daughter who was born to you in New York City----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Manhattan Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. She was--her given name was----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Jeanne Elinor LeGon.

Mr. JENNER. And she changed her name to Christiana?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; her father did it. She was just a youngster.

You know what happened to him mentally. He went completely--I don't know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them, maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's name or something. But for a particular reason he didn't take it himself, but he put it--insisted that my daughter will take the name.

Mr. JENNER. What name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Bogoiavlensky--and drop the LeGon. And she was baptized--she was brought up as Episcopalian. I never baptized her, because I wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew up. I know too many people who have too many difficulties later when they find out they want something else. By the time she was baptized she liked the name Christiana and she took that name. And he changed her name to Bogoiavlensky again. So it was very, very unpleasant and horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do.

Mr. JENNER. Did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing you of being a Communist?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if you have a letter, I wish I would have a letter what he did. You see I had charge accounts throughout the country, because I was making very good money. Lord and Taylor, Saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. And when that happened, I actually told him that is the end, I am divorcing you, and that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the department stores, including Niemans, and I believe Niemans showed me the letter, and there was a Golden Pheasant Restaurant--they showed me the letter--that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that Eugenia Fomenko Bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is--almost putting that I am a spy, and God knows what in it, and that he is not responsible for my debts, for my accounts.

It was 1957, and since 1941 I was the one that made all the money in the family. I was the one making all these things, bringing up my child. So that was horrible. That is not all. He sent letters, and he signed "FBI"--make believe they are from the FBI. He sent to all my people in New York, firms that I work with, that also I am a spy or something, this and that, horrible.

And I was in Europe that summer. And a friend of mine came over and said, "What is the matter with you?" She said, "What happened to you? The FBI are looking for you."

I said, "Are you kidding me?"

She said "No;" one of the manufacturers showed her the letter.

I said, "For God sakes, this is ridiculous, I never heard of such a thing."

So when I come back to New York I right away went to see all of them.

They said, some were laughing about it. But some I know they had a little something behind their heads.

Mr. JENNER. They were worried?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that, already set people thinking. And do you know that I could not get a job in New York, just because of that? And, fortunately, being in Texas, I switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and I had two jobs in no time in that market.

And I was able to get--I lost my job in Texas while I was in Europe because of that.

He sent that to my employer.

I never told that--I don't know if my present husband knows it--because that would really kill him, a thing like that.

But it was eventually straightened out. But I was actually out, I couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, I had to send her money. I had nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Where was she attending a university?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. UCLA.

Mr. JENNER. When was this?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1957. Fall of 1957.

Mr. JENNER. Did your daughter come to live with you right after she was----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She came over for summer.

Mr. JENNER. In 1957?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I will tell you. It is really a very tragic thing. I knew I should have dropped this when she was 6 years old, because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. But we just had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things. And he just could not adapt himself to the country.

I know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost. Whatever we had, it is never the same. It never was good enough. Our daughter would never have what we had in childhood.

He was from a very wealthy family, and, fortunately, I was, too.

I said, "For goodness sakes, who cares? We are alive. How many people are dead already? We are here. It is a new country. We will make what we want to make out of it."

I started from $25 a week. And in New York I was making $1,100 a week. That is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it, and you work. And if you don't have a negative attitude.

But he could not. Even when we had a nice home in California, with beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see Catalina Island and everything. He said, "No; at our house we had 30 people for dinner every day." It is awful. He never could get adjusted to it.

Mr. JENNER. But he wasn't earning a living, was he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he wasn't. He was always--you see, I understand from talking to doctors--he was off for quite a while, which I didn't know. I didn't know it. And it never occurred to me. We were brought up maybe 200 years set back. This was the husband, and that is the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it is that is how it is going to stay. So it never occurred to me there could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. In fact, my brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find out why he should have such an attitude, but I laughed at my brother.

Unfortunately, maybe I should have listened to him.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit--you came to this country. Did you and your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were supposed to. We had auditions with Moss and Hart, very successful. And we were almost ready to have a contract in the Rainbow Room. And then I became pregnant with my little girl. And that really shattered us to pieces. We are awfully happy to have a child, but that was not the time to have the child. We had to leave everything in China, because we had to cross all Japan. So that was--at the time it was just like a tragedy. And after she was born, I could never dance.

Mr. JENNER. Now, after the birth of your daughter, did you--what did you do to sustain your family?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I stayed home for 1 year. We just lived on whatever he made. Because I wanted to bring her up--I don't believe in nurses. I like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in whatever a little baby should be trained.

And then if he could possibly make a little better, I would not go to work.

But then I saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and more depressed, and is getting worse. He just didn't care. He had that attitude, "I don't care." I said if that is his attitude, if I don't do something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. So I started to think. What could I do? I spoke English, but crazy pigeon English.

I couldn't do anything architecturally, because I don't know the terminology. I can automatically make the drawings, but I would not be able to render it. It would be impossible for me to have anything.

And then actually, without knowing anything, I became a model. I had two lessons, and I pretended that I was very experienced. I fooled everybody. And I somehow got a job as a model.

And then--at one place it didn't work out, because it was very depressing and horrible atmosphere. On Seventh Avenue it is no joke.

Mr. JENNER. My daughter is a model.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Probably with a good firm.

I have a couple of firms that are fantastic. And then I switched to Leeds Ltd. And within 1 year, from modeling, from 25, I became in charge of the showroom. I was selling, I was selecting fabrics, and became a stylist.

And then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and I have been with them for 7 years.

But to start with, I worked 7 days a week. I worked even Sunday, until 1 o'clock--that is how hard I worked.

And the very same firm paid me in 1957 to design a collection for them, the same clothes I did 10 years ago--$500 for 5 days, for 4-1/2 days. So you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. Only in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. A country of opportunity.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you want to.

That is what Marina--that is why I get mad with her. I told her, "Marina, look at me."

Let's not talk about Marina now.

Mr. JENNER. I want to get to that. But I would like to cover this background first.

You continued as a designer?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I switched firms.

Mr. JENNER. Of Leeds Wearing Apparel?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I started to travel to Europe.

Mr. JENNER. You made frequent trips to Europe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Twice a year.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, eventually, you reached Texas. How did that happen?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my daughter had asthma. She is a very allergic child. And her health was really terrible. In spite of all the care given to her, she just could not stand the New York climate. And our family doctor said the only way to save her--she was getting really sick from antibiotics and penicillin--is to change the climate.

So I was very anxious to change the climate--going to California, that was my aim.

But I could not reach California. Mr. Gold, of Nardis Sportswear in New York, wanted to open a suit department. And, of course, the buyers did know me all over the country--the same buyers--recommended to get in touch with me and engage me. And it was pretty good. It was $20,000 a year, plus two trips to Europe, with expenses paid, and about $7,000 to buy the models--you just cannot go in and look at the shows.

So I decided I am going to go and do it. And Texas is better climatewise than New York.

And, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left New York. It is a fantastic change.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you go to Texas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Texas in 1953, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. 1953. Did your husband accompany you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came in the summer, and then I had to go immediately to Europe. And he came over in the fall, when my daughter returned from camp. He came over in the fall, and then shipped all the furniture.

In the meanwhile, I stayed with the Golds. They have a very big mansion----

Mr. JENNER. Your husband left Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he came in the fall of 1953.

Mr. JENNER. He came in the fall from New York City?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was there--how long did he stay?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He stayed there until about February of 1954.

Mr. JENNER. And then he did what?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then he went to California.

Mr. JENNER. Was he working?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he went to visit my brother for holidays. We always tried to go to California instead of going to Miami, to be with my brother. And he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move to California. So we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate something while I finish my contract. My contract was expiring in the spring of 1954.

Mr. JENNER. Your contract with Nardis?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; then I would go there, also, also in the late spring or early summer--maybe he can locate something in the meanwhile, in California.

And then I was very lucky. It was Mr. Gold's tough luck. But it was good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. There was a tremendous scandal. And he had two buildings--he lost one of the buildings. In other words, he could not afford even to go into the suit operation, and go ahead with it. So he was very glad that I asked for release, and he was glad to give it to me. He thought I am going to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract before. And I was very glad. It worked out very nice for me. We remained good friends. And then I went to California.

Mr. JENNER. Did you work in California?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I worked with Style Garments, a coat and suit firm.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the name of it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Style Garments. They are out of business now. The owners were interested in real estate. And they went into real estate. So the firm closed up.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain in California?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Actually living in one spot--that was 1954. I think it was 1955, spring, I received an offer from Dallas, to fly just for 2 or 3 weeks, and design a collection of suits. It was for I. Clark. That was wonderful.

Mr. JENNER. That took you back to Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On and off. I just went for a few weeks. You see, I designed a suit collection, and I went back. And then they asked me to come over and do some more dresses. So I started to go there back and forth. And also, at the same time, going to New York to buy fabrics for the firm, and at the same time I decided, well, if I do that, I might do the same type of work in New York. If I can fly to New York to buy fabrics, I can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand dollars.

I designed a collection for Handmacher. I designed a collection for Leeds. One week I got $1,100. So you can see what can happen.

But that really was getting me. Because it went on until 1956 fall. I was on the plane more than off the plane. And it wasn't very good for my daughter. She was already 14, 15.

Mr. JENNER. You had custody of your daughter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the divorce?

Mr. JENNER. Were you taking your daughter on these trips?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; how could I? She was going to school all the time.

Mr. JENNER. Was she going to school in California?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; going to high school.

Mr. JENNER. Eventually, did you take up permanent residence in Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I took up permanent residence at the time when I told my husband I am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of 1956.

Mr. JENNER. And you went to Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I went to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take your daughter with you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. She was then what age?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was 15. And I have a reason for doing that, because I just couldn't do it to her father. He would be completely killed. The only thing left--he doesn't have any relatives at all. He doesn't have a single soul in this world. In fact, I tell you--in the divorce case, I insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her money, he will have money to live on, too.

If I took the daughter, I could not give him money to live on--he wouldn't take it. But if he had custody of the child then she will be provided for, and he could still keep on going with that.

So that was the thing. But it worked out the other way--when he completely turned in rage. He even, when I flew to California he wouldn't let me see her. I had to get a sheriff to see her. Now, I understand.

Mr. JENNER. He is in a mental institution in California now?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. He was, on and off, and finally he is there. He seems to be incurable.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when did you meet your present husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956.

Mr. JENNER. When you came back to Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To design a collection. I was working there.

Mr. JENNER. And did his daughter as well as your daughter join you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did, but later on.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She joined us in, I think, the spring of 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had both girls for a while. You know, she eloped, his little girl.

Mr. JENNER. And married Gary Taylor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I wanted to break that marriage right away, and get her back in school, and spank her--really tough. But the parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. It was no love--it was just delinquency. She didn't know who I was. She thought I will be easy going--knowing her father, she thought I was easy going. And all of a sudden she came in. She had to study, she had to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with I have to meet first. So she couldn't possibly--I talked to her just last year. I said, "Tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought I would be very easy. And you certainly didn't like the way I was strict with you."

But I was strict with my daughter, also. And she was older than she was. And she would not go out until she brought the young man to introduce. And then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my present husband.

She asked, "What do you think of him?"

She was 19 already. That little kid was just 14 or 15. So I could not possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much older.

Sometimes I think maybe if I wasn't so strict with her, maybe--you never know with children.

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra, is now married.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is divorced.

Can you imagine that?

Mr. JENNER. She has remarried.

Tell me about your present husband. What kind of a person is he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. He is a terrific person, absolutely terrific. He has a soul of gold. I really mean it. And sometimes he drives me so crazy, I can just smash his head, because he is so impatient. He is extremely impatient. He is always in a hurry. You have to be 10 times faster than he is in order to have everything quiet. That is about the only quality that I would not like--he is just always in a hurry. He is always rushing somewhere, and everything has to be just immediately. Never a second late.

Mr. JENNER. Is he an outspoken person?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; very, very, very outspoken person.

Mr. JENNER. Very handsome and an attractive man?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you. I like--inside--I think he is much better inside than outside. He is a good-looking man. And women find him fantastically attractive. I don't. I like his personality. I think he is wonderful. He feels--he is nice with people, he is nice with animals. I don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate harm.

He can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may hurt them. He may do that.

But he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. So by speaking like that--for instance, he can make a joke about a person, really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person.

Mr. JENNER. He is a little heavy in his humor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; sometimes it is uncalled for at all.

And, later on, when I tell him, he agrees with me. But it was already said. And especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully hurt. And he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing people, which some people appreciate and some people don't.

I personally don't appreciate teasing, and I don't appreciate--I don't think it is necessary. He thinks it is very funny. I don't think it is funny at all. That is the thing. Through that, I am sure he has a couple of people that don't like him very well. I don't think they hate him. The only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife, because of the children.

Mr. JENNER. Didi?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was so hateful, that nothing could just soften her or break her down--nothing, nothing, nothing. No matter how he tried, no matter how I tried, nothing. It is a blank wall. Such hatred, such venom and such hatred. It is impossible.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is why it is so wonderful when he told me that she spoke nicely about him. It was a wonderful surprise. It is for the first time, really. It was a very pleasant surprise. So we have hope--maybe she is growing up. You don't have to be grown up to grow up.

Mr. JENNER. What are your husband's political views? Now, I mean political with a capital P. I don't mean Democrat or Republican politics. I mean political in the grand sense.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the grand sense--I would say he is a real Democrat, for democracy. But, also, you see, both of us--we don't believe that every country should have the same government, because each country--a certain government will be good for one country, and would be completely awful for another.

For instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries may need that. They may live better, happier, until they grow up a little more to handle themselves. So we don't--I would say we are very, very flexible on this point, both of us--very flexible. It just depends what is the best for the people. If people are ready and able to have a complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world. But it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off, because some countries get lost--they still have to be guided.

Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him as a loyal American?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. He doesn't have to be here. He has friends all over the world. And--we live out more than in. Why do we come back? What is the reason? Just because we like it.

Gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the United States. We are aiming for the San Francisco area, northern California. That is where we would love. We love swimming, the ocean. That is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it ourselves, in the place we want to. Not just to hop around.

Mr. JENNER. Would you mind returning at 9 tomorrow morning?

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. You worked for Judy Bond, Inc.?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, Judy Bond, and Nancy Greer, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. The same firm?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at the same time.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned. I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to dresses.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Jack Rothenberg familiar to you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer.

Mr. JENNER. The records reflect that you were employed there as a designer in the fall of 1957.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were two--Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall working for Handmacher Vogel in 1956?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You remember when I told you I flew in and designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited. The same year.

Mr. JENNER. Leeds Coats, Inc.?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Also 1956, wasn't it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956. Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right.

Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in the fall of 1946?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which happens to be Martins.

Mr. JENNER. Martins Fashion Apparel Store?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, on the floor. That was the general idea.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942, 1944, and 1945.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't remember for sure.

Mr. JENNER. And the fall of 1946. Then you worked for a while for R. H. Macy.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just on the same basis--just for a couple of days.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right. I just want to know that you did.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. About when was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. It must be before 1947, because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I just couldn't combine it.

Mr. JENNER. Way back in 1941 you worked for a while for Bloom and Eagen.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, a dress firm.

Mr. JENNER. Can you remember about when that was? You worked there as a model?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was before I even started with Leeds.

Mr. JENNER. You worked there as a model.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Lombardy Coat Co.?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it.

Mr. JENNER. And your employment in Dallas was----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1953.

Mr. JENNER. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for which you worked in 1953?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nardis; Nardis of Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And that spanned about what period of time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That spanned almost a year, starting summer 1953.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I terminated the contract around April.

Mr. JENNER. Around April of 1954?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; approximately.

Mr. JENNER. Then you worked for whom?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From then on, I moved to California, and I started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles.

Mr. JENNER. That would be 1954?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And that----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was my first job with Clark, because I worked for Nardis before.

Mr. JENNER. And you worked for Clark for how long?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960.

Mr. JENNER. That was in 1960?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960.

Mr. JENNER. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and summer and fall of 1960?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We left Dallas on October 6 or October 5.

Mr. JENNER. 1960?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1960.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned when?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to the same date--in the very first days of October. I worked for another company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip.

Mr. JENNER. Spring or fall?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was summer, just before we went on our trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too. 1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip.

Mr. JENNER. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when you got back?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize the whole thing.

Mr. JENNER. But it did eventually materialize?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off on this, and he couldn't do very much, either.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. For me it was really drastic.

Mr. JENNER. But you went to work--you did return to work before you went to Haiti?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we needed to do it.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Millinery. I was working in the millinery department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Preston Center?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Preston Center Store.

Mr. JENNER. And you worked in the millinery department until just before----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before we left for the east, before we made a trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and then he was also in Washington.

We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and God knows--we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days. And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with everything.

Mr. JENNER. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I think, was on the second of June----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We arrived 2 June. Oh, yes; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other than this trip you have now made to testify?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In fact, we didn't leave the country at all.

Mr. JENNER. That applies to your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you join him there?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished designing--I joined him--it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job.

Mr. JENNER. You joined him in Yugoslavia. What town was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Zagreb.

Mr. JENNER. And you were with him in Zagreb how long?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10 days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was Petrovaz, a little town.

Mr. JENNER. And he remained there, and you remained there how long?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Petrovaz?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had been shooting at us in Yugoslavia?

Mr. JENNER. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about that. But I would like to have you tell me about it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature--nothing that already will be prepared for us. So we took--in the morning we took a walk in the mountains. We climbed the mountains.

In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast--the most beautiful spot in the world. And the mountains--we saw something that looked like a fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea.

He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do something to them--this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out.

Mr. JENNER. Who is obnoxious?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out--his bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it was very difficult.

So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said, "They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni, the villa where Tito lives--they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough. We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a little island. We left the canoe.

Mr. JENNER. Canoe or rowboat?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat. So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the water in front of another cave. It was beautiful--just like a curtain drape. And all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the cave and we were sitting there--what are we going to do? We are quite far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk to us, but nobody came.

So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty, not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is what happened to us in Yugoslavia.

When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States Government.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody doing some sketching.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day--he went for a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero.

Mr. JENNER. Nero is one of your pups?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of course, Haitians--they almost called him Longaron--that is a werewolf, Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very mild people. They just enjoyed it.

Mr. JENNER. When did you leave Europe on that occasion?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. When--1957?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot tell you exactly. But it was in the fall.

Mr. JENNER. Did you both return to the United States together?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember right after he returned Clark was in New York.

Mr. JENNER. That is I. Clark?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And in fact he went with me to meet him at the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth.

Mr. JENNER. At Hanover, N.H.?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and then we drove slowly--we drove through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw it--St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Of what year?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was 1957; still 1957.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall your husband making a trip to Ghana?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he did. I believe it was in 1958, in late spring.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not for long. It was about 3 weeks or so.

Mr. JENNER. That was for what purpose? What did you understand it to be for?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, to make--he was working for some people, for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria.

Mr. JENNER. Nigeria and Ghana, are they the same?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They are not the same, but they are close. He was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines throughout the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that now. It is a fantastic business.

Mr. JENNER. It is fantastic?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. If you love nature. Otherwise, it is no fun at all.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated. They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I really love that.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about your trip down through Mexico and Central America.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us.

Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us--we get killed or not killed--the only thing we worry about Nero being an orphan if something happen to us.

But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the afternoon, his dinner.

Mr. JENNER. The mule?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5-1/2 months through Mexico. Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting.

Mr. JENNER. Costa Rica?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in good physical shape. But the torrential rains--we were almost swept out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return to Dallas. And I didn't want to.

Mr. JENNER. Before you get to Haiti--was that purely a business trip--I mean a pleasure trip?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot of minerals on the way. And he sent them--he had been sending them to be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost.

But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything, because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico.

Mr. JENNER. Your visa in Mexico permitted you to stay there 6 months?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the border--that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry.

But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The lava was gushing down. We have photographs and movies. I am from the red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero--my hair is standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any consideration other than you have indicated, any purpose--I will put it that way--of your trip other than you have indicated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency, or any government?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Or have any political aspects whatsoever?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know you have to ask these questions, but there was none at all, absolutely none.

Mr. JENNER. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, did it not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But we learned about it much later.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Were you aware of the Bay of Pigs invasion in advance?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Advance? We were not even aware at the time of it.

Mr. JENNER. You were not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. But we noticed something very funny. We noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They looked like American boys. And then when we--we had----

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute we arrived to the city--we leave our mule and go right away to the Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion was going on.

So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that there was an invasion.

So maybe that was the people that were involved in it.

Mr. JENNER. That is all you know about the Bay of Pigs invasion?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is all we know about it.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in Cuba?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mikoyan?

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped. We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York.

Mr. JENNER. What was the time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Do you have a date when she eloped--sometime in November.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must be. I think it was 1959.

Mr. JENNER. Wait a minute.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe it was November 1959, to my best belief. I cannot be sure.

Chronologically, it must be around there.

Mr. JENNER. You tell me about the incident and I will find the date.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was very simple. We had dinner with the presidential pilot and some other friends.

Mr. JENNER. That is the pilot of the President of Mexico?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the name. Can we just say presidential pilot?

Mr. JENNER. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now, you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you understand it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. G-o-r-d-u-n-i-o N-o-u-n-i-o.

They were giving him--the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded, and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan? I said, of course I would.

Mr. JENNER. Who said that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The pilot.

I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded.

So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd, I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course, pathetic. Women don't even look like women.

Mr. JENNER. Who are you talking about?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The Russian women, at the reception. The Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was with the captain, and he was very close--very good friend of Mikoyan. We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was speaking English. And then we came over to the plane.

Mr. JENNER. You went out to the airport?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To the airport, when he was already leaving, after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan, this is my friend Señora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and said----

Mr. JENNER. You spoke in Russian?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you, Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time. And all of a sudden, I deliberately--it was sort of a prank. He almost fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it in Dallas to everybody.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that was purely an adventure?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, sure. It was just a prank, just for fun.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico--you had not anticipated the presence of the Russian mission?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely. George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there--I think they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it--they just didn't accept it, they didn't accept his proposal.

And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the presidential pilot.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That must be November 1959.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in Mexico City.

Mr. JENNER. You went from Panama to Haiti?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly.

Mr. JENNER. You flew to Haiti?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the purpose of that visit to Haiti?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The main purpose was to rest, and another purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, 75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we don't go now, we might never see him.

Mr. JENNER. What was his name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Michael Breitman. And he died within the next year.

Mr. JENNER. But that was--that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit this gentleman?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And to rest.

Mr. JENNER. From your long, arduous trip through Central America?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the United States?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By boat?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By boat, by Lykes Line.

Mr. JENNER. And your harbor was what--St. Charles, or Lake Charles?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over there, the Savages.

Mr. JENNER. And the Mitchells?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house, stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car.

Mr. JENNER. Your friend----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From Houston. We have quite a few friends in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period when you met the Oswalds.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time.

Now, as I understand it, you met the Oswalds in the summer of 1962.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the late summer.

Mr. JENNER. There was a small Russian colony?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony. There are some odds-and-ends Russian people.

Mr. JENNER. I am using a reference to identify a more or less heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian people there--some that came in after the revolution, and there are some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany.

Mr. JENNER. You are now telling me about this situation in Dallas, are you not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to classify who was before and who came in later.

Mr. JENNER. But you are telling me about people in Dallas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the United States was, of course--Marina was, and I think there was another one, Declan Ford.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Declan Ford?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage broke up.

Mr. JENNER. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian derivation. Some had come directly from Russia--that is, in the sense that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The Germans invaded Russia. They were prisoners, civil prisoners.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her story is something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the war ended, they met American boys, and married them.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't know of anybody else.

Mr. JENNER. Then others had escaped Russia or Poland?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. For instance, one of them--she was never even in Russia--that type of Russian colony. She was married to an American man.

Mr. JENNER. Well, this is a group that had common interests--interested in each other?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further apart. They were not exactly all friends--I will put it that way.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see--you had been there--well, you were off and on commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1956, 1957.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this history, did you people--and I don't mean just you alone, but I am talking about the whole group--become interested in them, seek to meet them, become acquainted?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something--and none of them were really--only Marina was--then we helped them.

But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you generally--were you advised normally in advance that somebody new was coming?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. They were talking for a couple of months.

Mr. JENNER. Who?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we found out about her actually through, I believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name.

Mr. JENNER. What about Max Clark?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he even had a fund for them--the people would give money--because he gave money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bouhe did give you money----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To pay for her dentist.

Mr. JENNER. And do you remember how much that was?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, it wasn't very much--maybe $20; something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for anything else with respect to the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know when they came.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before?

Mr. JENNER. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he attempted to defect?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; nothing at all--in spite that it was in some press somewhere--I believe it was printed.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw it. Never had no idea.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of you--Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk, Raigorodsky----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is a character--Dymitruk was also imported recently. I think after we were there.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean imported?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I mean he arrived--I call him imported. He was really a sad sack.

Mr. JENNER. He was the husband of Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you about her.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But I know very little about them.

Mr. JENNER. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I want to emphasize here is--if it is the truth--I don't want to put any words in your mouth--that you had no advance notice that either of these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, never heard anything?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. And was that generally true of all these people?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And, actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot even tell. I would like to know, myself, now, how it came about.

Mr. JENNER. They were brought to your attention?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is it was George Bouhe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My recollection is that he finally--we were sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally--I don't remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us for the first time. That is how it happened.

Mr. JENNER. And this was in the late summer of 1962?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort I would be glad to do.

Mr. JENNER. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for a year we didn't make any money, on our trip.

Mr. JENNER. I am not criticizing. All I am doing is seeking the facts.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not enough to be charitable.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on business, finances, is he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money. I am the one--I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a steady income. He has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in.

He may have within a year two or three fantastic things--go to Ghana, go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money.

But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he learned when he has something to hold onto it.

Mr. JENNER. So there were periods when his financial situation was good, so he was high?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we were very fortunate before our trip--he had an assignment in Ghana, and he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that trip.

Mr. JENNER. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not as affluent?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.

Mr. JENNER. But you folks were at no time wealthy people?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Real wealthy, no.

Mr. JENNER. You made----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could have been if I saved the money, but I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. You made a comfortable living, and that is about it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it.

Mr. JENNER. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly; none at all.

Mr. JENNER. But you were in a position that you could afford them time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And attention?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Not them--actually with Marina, because we couldn't do much for Oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him, and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had--I don't know who got it--I think it was an agency that got him the job he had.

Mr. JENNER. At Leslie Welding?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in a darkroom.

Mr. JENNER. That was later.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even know the name of it.

Mr. JENNER. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home or----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I really don't remember. And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know.

Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone.

Mr. JENNER. But in due course you did enter their home in Fort Worth?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never entered their home in Fort Worth. George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I think, when we brought Marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere--there was a tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something.

Mr. JENNER. Sears?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house. That is what I saw. A wooden building.

Mr. JENNER. You found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had would make anybody miserable to live with.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow?

Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running around.

He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very difficult personality.

And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive attitude to him.

I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, he could have killed us.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. We saw her with a black eye once.

Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other."

Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along with Oswald's family.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is what you learned in talking with them?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them.

Mr. JENNER. I want you to identify your sources of information.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they didn't get along well with their----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say through them, because maybe people talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is lazy. You see, there are people that actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.

Mr. JENNER. Where? At your home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you--if I stay with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning, see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything.

She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the same way--very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it--a young person. Maybe she was ill. We talked about it--maybe we have just too much energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active.

The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English--I bought them in New York when I arrived.

Mr. JENNER. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. According to her Oswald objected, and he also told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he doesn't want to forget Russian.

But then we got onto Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was his reason--not to let his wife learn English--because she was the only person he could speak Russian to.

Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she learned English, couldn't he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, "You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in this country without the language, she cannot do anything."

He was strange in many, many ways.

But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.

Mr. JENNER. Please.

You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him into doing it peacefully.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller.

Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or 3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely.

And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.

Mr. JENNER. In October or November?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know.

Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were.

In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, Bouhe's type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he is an older man.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think he saw a lot in his life, maybe.

Mr. JENNER. He is not a man of great physical stature, like your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the personality.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both Marina and Lee about their difficulties?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same room.

Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as to her dissatisfaction?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what?

Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied with him?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she.

Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay enough attention to her.

Mr. JENNER. That was one reason?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes.

And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their main disagreements.

And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to pick the child up, Lee is after her--why is the baby crying? And the baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.

Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over into those areas?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will.

At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were miserable, very, very poor.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your opinion of----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. One thing I want to tell you.

When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took her--the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs something with the car to help them.

Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff--God knows where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people give her so many things. Maybe that is why.

Why did he live so far?

We were very mad about it, too.

I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak Cliff to help them with this or that"--if she had to go to the doctor. Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier for me to help her.

He had some reasons to live far away.

I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the way out.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me of her personality.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States.

That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything.

Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her?

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that apartment house."

And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met.

And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back.

Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.

On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him.

Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"

And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow."

He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen."

And I said, "How come you are back?"

He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for."

Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I was looking for."

So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things.

And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved in it.

But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.

Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us.

Mr. JENNER. She did?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. Because I could see----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.

What did she say to him?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.

And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well.

He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.

So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and Oswald respected your husband.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him.

I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all right, he would not do it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I didn't know such things can happen to people, you know.

We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering--it has to be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. This man. So we objected to that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading.

Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.

Mr. JENNER. Try and recall more of that.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. That was very important. Because--and I know--I told you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable, also.

But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--I remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told that to me.

There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either--that type of a person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.

You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him after that. But Oswald didn't.

And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that Oswald was rude to people helping him.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever talk about his political views in your presence?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In which way? Overall political, or any particular incidents?

Mr. JENNER. Politics with a capital P. His views on government.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, because that was--oh, this is very important.

His objection--the things that he didn't like in Russia was those horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he was--according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or belonging to anything.

It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets or something, in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Passing them out?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely. Because we never had----

Mr. JENNER. You were in Haiti by that time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; we saw them last time Easter, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to visit them?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was this Easter Sunday or the day after?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for the baby.

Mr. JENNER. Did you arrive there during the day?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; it was in the evening. I think we were playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby.

And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And I remember they gave us something to drink.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived there. Were they--had they retired for the night?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think they were halfway in bed already, because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was dark.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee came to the door?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember who came to the door, Marina or Lee.

Mr. JENNER. They turned the light on. And where were they living then?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was their last apartment--not Elsbeth, but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other address I don't have. It is just around the corner.

Mr. JENNER. 214?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the address.

Mr. JENNER. Was it upstairs or downstairs?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big tree growing right next to the terrace.

Mr. JENNER. Had you been there before?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you had ever been there?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. Maybe I was. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house--that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?

Mr. JENNER. You say----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.

Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.

Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.

Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?

Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.

Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.

Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.

Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.

Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action, but I would not know.

Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle?

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.

Mr. JENNER. Skeet?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I just love it.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.

Mr. JENNER. But you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Little .22?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know what it was.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. It is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't know that. What caliber is it?

Mr. JENNER. 6.5.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I don't understand. We had 16--shotgun with us.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of any hunting in Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she told me. And you know what happened after that.

Mr. JENNER. Please. Tell me everything she said on this occasion.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think the most important thing is, that crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.

Mr. JENNER. And she also said he took it out in the park and was shooting it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something like that; yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George--do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We were not looking for any. I wish I would know.

Mr. JENNER. Please--I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me his. You noticed nothing?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't notice anything.

Mr. JENNER. Were you looking to see whether he had a change of expression?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; none at all. It was just a joke.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, it was a joke?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. But you did not look at him to see if he reacted?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't take it seriously enough to look at him.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain after that at their home?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The baby was asleep.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see the Oswalds on any subsequent occasion?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Never saw them?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was Easter, by the way? Do you remember--1963?

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because the 19th of April, we left.

Mr. JENNER. You left for New York on the 19th of April?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nineteenth, from what I recall. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In any event, it was the day before Easter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.

Mr. JENNER. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few weeks, a couple of weeks?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, Washington, Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned to Dallas in May?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. End of May.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of Everett Glover?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband take part in that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we were showing our movies to Everett's friends.

Mr. JENNER. How did that party come about?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a woman, Ruth Paine.

Mr. JENNER. You are talking about Glover?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to American people--not to Russian refugees--to get her out of that. So he mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What was her name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to Marina about this in advance?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your home, isn't that correct?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known Ruth Paine at all prior to this time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Met her the first time that evening, and we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too much problems with our own children.

Mr. JENNER. Who is too slow?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina. We had too many problems with our own children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning this trip. George--through next month to Haiti actually to seal this contract. We had our heads busy with other things.

Mr. JENNER. What occurred during that evening? The movie was shown?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life of Indians--or----

Mr. JENNER. About your trip?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About our trip, and that was all.

Mr. JENNER. Weren't these people interested in Marina and Oswald?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Some were.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. From what I recall at that particular time, it was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was there.

There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that worked with Everett.

Mr. JENNER. From Everett Glover's place?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house because they were interested in that.

Mr. JENNER. What are their names?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. She is teaching in a university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee have a good time at this party, or meeting?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know, because it was always dark when the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.

Mr. JENNER. Did you bring Lee and Marina to the party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at the party late?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for dinner, and then we brought them over.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only purpose of the meeting that you have indicated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The only purpose of?

Mr. JENNER. The meeting, the only purpose was the one you have indicated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party in December of 1963 at the Fords?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date.

Mr. JENNER. 1963.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know the date, but there was a party, and we attended it.

Mr. JENNER. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in December? Was it in the holiday period?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the holiday period, but was it December or was it early January, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. And who was at that party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people from this Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you know about Yaeko?

Mr. JENNER. Y-a-e-k-o?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know Yaeko before?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we knew Yaeko before.

Mr. JENNER. What was her last name?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember her last name because we always called her Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Where was she working?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know whether she was working at the time or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.

Mr. JENNER. Neiman Marcus?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and she was participating in it. That is what we know about Yaeko. But then we heard that she was in New York.

To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow--she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing happened, too, with that Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Involving the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was very funny because they practically spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.

Mr. JENNER. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko--by whom Yaeko was employed?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; but I can find out very easily.

Mr. JENNER. How?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Through Dallas. They know the people that actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very well.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Two people who can give you everything about Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. Henry Rogatz, also in----

Mr. JENNER. Henry Rogatz, R-o-g-a-t-z, and Lev Aronson, A-r-o-n-s-o-n?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.

Mr. JENNER. Would you do this. Call my hotel, The Madison?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Call later on?

Mr. JENNER. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address and telephone number, if you have it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Voshinin?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more than anybody.

Mr. JENNER. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

Mr. JENNER. To the Japanese girl?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what she told me. He really liked Yaeko.

Mr. JENNER. Did you bring the Oswalds to the party?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby because the baby would wake up.

I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.

Mr. JENNER. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in December of 1963 you were in Haiti.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was after this.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, it couldn't be December of 1963.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was dead already.

Mr. JENNER. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home that evening?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we did. We just had to, because we had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. That is why we were so sorry for them.

I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little boy, too.

Mr. JENNER. With whose daughter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With George's daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Alexandra?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.

Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.

Mr. JENNER. Gary Taylor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.

Mr. JENNER. You mean he is not a man of attainment?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. It is just impressions we had.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to Russia?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. None at all.

Mr. JENNER. That is entirely new to you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than we ever knew about them.

Mr. JENNER. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Could be, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I what?

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the letter----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband show you that letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Before he sent it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine.

Mr. JENNER. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter was mailed.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think I really should read it.

Do you want me to read it again?

Mr. JENNER. You have read that exhibit?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read this, too?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.

The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him in the same feeling.

Mr. JENNER. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, all that is true; isn't it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know how to feed that baby.

Mr. JENNER. She did not?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was 9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything.

I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet.

I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to raise a baby correctly."

She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.

Mr. JENNER. Marina's teeth?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She just didn't know any better, you know. That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was absolutely too--I never thought that. I thought they were very, very proper and very----

Mr. JENNER. What did she say about how they behaved?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy interests.

And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. One evening I talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I was really sorry for her.

I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You cannot be very angry with her.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that expression I assume they were parties of----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never occur to us.

Mr. JENNER. In this country?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In this country. I would say China, too. I was brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth never acted like that at all.

So it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely degeneration.

Mr. JENNER. You found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. In bringing up the child?

Mr. JENNER. In bringing up this child?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. That she fed her sugar and water?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Milk and sugar.

Mr. JENNER. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. The child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing.

Mr. JENNER. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was not aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.

Mr. JENNER. Can you recall any other incidents?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. With Marina?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recollect of anything of any importance.

Mr. JENNER. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked--I mean what swayed me about her personality----

Mr. JENNER. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. I want your opinion.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Before?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Promiscuous.

Mr. JENNER. She was promiscuous but not malicious?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.

Mr. JENNER. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I cannot say she did, but I am sure she did.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for very little money.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know if he even drives a car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him drive a car?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.

Mr. JENNER. You took the baby to the clinic for various shots?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.

Mr. JENNER. So, as a matter of fact, Mrs. Dymitruk took her?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She did.

Mr. JENNER. You recall Mrs. Dymitruk?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I know her very little, but I recall her. I think it is Lydia, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. You also took her to the dentist. Was that at Baylor?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.

Mr. JENNER. Some money had to be paid in that connection?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you got that money from George Bouhe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right, and he told me there would be the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them.

Mr. JENNER. That if there was need for additional money----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. More money, yes, he had some funds to help them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." Is that correct?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the Mellers?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.

Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which Marina left Lee and went with some others?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't even remember that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall a time when she was with Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only connection we had.

Mr. JENNER. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and the late President was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband discuss that sentence with you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, we didn't discuss any sentences of this letter.

Mr. JENNER. But you read the letter before it was mailed?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I read the letter.

The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have that impression of the man?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, never at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was envious at any time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that is understandable, too. We learned that Connally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, no.

Mr. JENNER. Please, did you know anything about the discharge incident?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. We read it in the papers after.

Mr. JENNER. I want to keep separated here what you learned about afterwards.

Governor Connally was never mentioned at any time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never.

Mr. JENNER. That you had any contact with the Oswalds?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever mentioned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was his boyhood ever mentioned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. His boyhood?

Mr. JENNER. Boyhood.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. Never, never.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't remember discussing that.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. I don't recall any conversation.

Mr. JENNER. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions should have been taken."

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right. I agree.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.

Mr. JENNER. So this remark in the letter is based on that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On that, exactly.

Mr. JENNER. That is as far as you are concerned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As far as we are concerned, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband may have had something else in mind?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right wing, extreme right wing?

Mr. JENNER. You go ahead if you have anything to say about that.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. And so there was a lot of----

Mr. JENNER. Animosity?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.

Mr. JENNER. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. We talk about it very often.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't even see the letter.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just wrote the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I took her twice there, I believe. They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.

Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, "For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you still didn't meet the Oswalds?"

She said, "Don't ever mention it to me again. We have a reason."

I said, "What are the reasons?"

She said, "I cannot tell you."

Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you gave them these language records?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A phonograph.

Mr. JENNER. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money that you had received from George Bouhe?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Right.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't give them any of your own money?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not that I ever recall.

Mr. JENNER. You brought them gifts?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just tiny little things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You gave her some clothing.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gave her----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is just for the night, the nightgown, like that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the United States and its form of government?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. He objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.

Mr. JENNER. He was opposed to segregation, was he?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, but I am trying to find out what his views were.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is completely in accord with President Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, the only thing, the question I actually brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Otherwise known as Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never heard of him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. That he operated?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.

Mr. JENNER. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as drinking is concerned?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; he wouldn't drink.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in the flesh?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.

Mr. JENNER. I mean apart from newsreels?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. TV? No.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever mention Jack Ruby?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of Jack Ruby's places?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put it that way.

Mr. JENNER. But your opinion is formed on what you have read in the newspapers?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; that is the only thing I know.

Mr. JENNER. And not on any actual facts you know anything about?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple. How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't he try to cover it up a little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any sense.

No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.

What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?

It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.

Mr. JENNER. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first time?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. That you knew anything about a rifle?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what I mean--maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with Marines staying in the east.

Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling--Marina was telling me the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so on and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald had told her that?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. She needled him?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things.

Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. What did you say?

Mr. JENNER. You have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your deposition?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, absolutely.

Mr. JENNER. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from Mr. Rankin?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did.

Mr. JENNER. General counsel of the Commission?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's----

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; two copies.

Mr. JENNER. His Executive order creating the Commission, No. 11130?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And fixing its responsibilities?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed that is what it was.

Mr. JENNER. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I probably did.

Mr. JENNER. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you and your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately has led to this.

Your husband has told us in considerable detail about the Haiti venture.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child."

The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did something very big.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow--at the moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.

The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive.

By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.

For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?

Mr. JENNER. We will see what we can do about it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl.

We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"

He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up.

For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in 2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.

Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's little girl.

If you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You want the addresses?

Mr. JENNER. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.

Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; he is too busy. He has so many little things to do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to handle it the way he has handled it?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, I don't think it really matters.

Mr. JENNER. These men are quite competent and they take down everything.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is wonderful.

Mr. JENNER. Then you will waive your reading and signing?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to be signed?

Mr. JENNER. No; not unless you insist on it.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't care. It doesn't matter one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very, very much.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.[1]

[1] The testimony of Mrs. Ruth Paine given before the Commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.

I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.

The REPORTER. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. PAINE. I do.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might cover your background to some extent, Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. My material indicates that you were born in New York City.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In 1932.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you remained in New York City until when?

Mrs. PAINE. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Immediately after your birth, or substantially so?

Mrs. PAINE. My family moved to New Jersey.

Mr. JENNER. And your family moved to New Jersey. And you lived where?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.

Mr. JENNER. But do you recall then moving from Park Ridge, N.J.?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.

Mr. JENNER. But you did eventually move to Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. JENNER. And what age were you when you moved to Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. I must have been 10 or about to be 10.

Mr. JENNER. And you attended elementary schools and high school in Columbus?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?

Mrs. PAINE. In Yellow Springs, Ohio, in 1949.

Mr. JENNER. 1949 was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you eventually received a degree from Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. I did, in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.

Mr. JENNER. And do you receive any kind of credit?

Mrs. PAINE. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.

Mr. JENNER. Does Antioch College--I know you said you were of the Quaker faith--does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it doesn't.

Mr. JENNER. What was your major at Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. I majored in education.

Mr. JENNER. And seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.

Mr. JENNER. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or group activities, at least?

Mrs. PAINE. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.

Mr. JENNER. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?

Mrs. PAINE. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned 1947 yesterday. Was that a----

Mrs. PAINE. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.

Mr. JENNER. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is recreation instructor and leader?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Also, apparently--I am not certain of this--that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that would have been the following summer.

Mr. JENNER. That would be 1951?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And where did that take place?

Mrs. PAINE. With the American Friends Service Committee?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.

Mr. JENNER. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is after reentering Antioch.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I had so understood.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?

Mrs. PAINE. That was a period of 8 weeks; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was your position a position of recreation leader?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you teach?

Mrs. PAINE. I taught first graders. I particularly had the slow learning class.

Mr. JENNER. And that was part of the cooperative program at Antioch; was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I recall that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state what the nature of that was?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.

Mr. JENNER. Where is Pendle Hill?

Mrs. PAINE. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Friends, Quakers.

Mr. JENNER. Is it all one word, Pendlehill, or two words?

Mrs. PAINE. Two words.

Mr. JENNER. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to--state it again.

Mrs. PAINE. The Friends World Conference, at Oxford.

Mr. JENNER. Oxford, England?

Mrs. PAINE. England.

Mr. JENNER. And you also attended----

Mrs. PAINE. A Young Friends Conference.

Mr. JENNER. At Reading, England.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.

Mr. JENNER. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?

Mrs. PAINE. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.

Mr. JENNER. Were they all emigres?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.

Mr. JENNER. That is a city in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.

Mr. JENNER. What was your particular activity in connection with this group?

Mrs. PAINE. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.

Mr. JENNER. Were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.

Mr. JENNER. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, they loved America very much. They raised their families here.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first of those three groups.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the next?

Mrs. PAINE. The second was the group of young adults that met once a week.

Mr. JENNER. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?

Mrs. PAINE. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.

Mr. JENNER. Were they likewise people who had come from Russia or Poland?

Mrs. PAINE. No, no; they had been born here.

Mr. JENNER. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.

Mr. JENNER. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The third was, I think you described it, as the lounge.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.

Mr. JENNER. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.

Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I hadn't.

Mr. JENNER. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. No; had these activities?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Stimulated my interest?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.

Do you recall that as early as 1945--1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.

Mr. JENNER. This was a private----

Mrs. PAINE. It is just a private farm; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Wolfe's Truck Farm?

Mrs. PAINE. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.

Mr. JENNER. You say entering a school at that time.

Mrs. PAINE. I was about to enter high school.

Mr. JENNER. That was high school?

Mrs. PAINE. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Friends Vacation Bible School?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit about that.

Mrs. PAINE. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.

Mr. JENNER. So at this time you were 15 years old, 14 or 15, right in there?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little bit more about that activity.

Mrs. PAINE. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did I interrupt you?

Mrs. PAINE. Working with children in crafts with them.

Mr. JENNER. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. University.

Mr. JENNER. University, was it?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the school I attended.

Mr. JENNER. That was your high school?

Mrs. PAINE. This was the high school.

Mr. JENNER. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?

Mrs. PAINE. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.

Mr. JENNER. By the families themselves?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing--more likely stories.

Mr. JENNER. Were these quite young children?

Mrs. PAINE. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do some teaching at Pendle Hill eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the----

Mr. JENNER. I meant to ask you if I had left out anything.

Mrs. PAINE. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.

Mr. JENNER. That ran over a little bit into 1951, didn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it closed with the Christmas holidays.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?

Mrs. PAINE. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.

Mr. JENNER. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what activity were you engaged at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.

Mr. JENNER. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?

Mrs. PAINE. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do? What was your work?

Mrs. PAINE. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.

Mr. JENNER. During all of that period?

Mrs. PAINE. During those 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I see. That is where my confusion arose.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it would have been August.

Mr. JENNER. August 1955?

Mrs. PAINE. It has to have been before school started.

Mr. JENNER. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.

Mr. JENNER. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that. I think we covered it enough yesterday.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?

Mrs. PAINE. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.

Mr. JENNER. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that----

Mr. JENNER. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954-55, along in that time, didn't you?

Mrs. PAINE. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, but they were not conferences.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I am using the wrong terminology.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them.

Mr. JENNER. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who were both Russian and Quakers?

Mr. JENNER. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.

Mrs. PAINE. It brings nothing to my mind.

Mr. JENNER. It does not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That fits with my memory of it.

Mr. JENNER. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?

Mrs. PAINE. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from the American Friends Service Committee, also.

Mr. JENNER. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. They went on from--where was this, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they went on from there to see other parts of America?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is to say up to November 22----

Mrs. PAINE. You mean people who had been born there?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. You are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of any particular contact.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.

Mr. JENNER. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second one, was Nina Atarina?

Mrs. PAINE. Aparina, A-p-a-r-i-n-a.

Mr. JENNER. And she is the school teacher?

Mrs. PAINE. She is.

Mr. JENNER. And you haven't heard from her in, did you say, 6 or 8 months?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be a year, I am quite certain.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.

Mrs. PAINE. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to--I am not certain of the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in Europe.

Mr. JENNER. That is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies?

Mrs. PAINE. Having to do with insurance; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Insurance companies?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. This is a commercial activity, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so. And----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?

Mrs. PAINE. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.

Mr. JENNER. What is the subject he is teaching?

Mrs. PAINE. It has to do with insurance.

Mr. JENNER. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance----

Mrs. PAINE. He worked for the same company then.

Mr. JENNER. The same company, in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have your parents had any interests in political matters?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what you understand----

Mrs. PAINE. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.

Mr. JENNER. Is that something like what I would call a farmers cooperative?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know what farmers cooperative is.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is?

Mrs. PAINE. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.

Mrs. PAINE. That is a correct statement.

Mr. JENNER. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.

Mr. JENNER. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is a fair statement.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.

Mr. JENNER. Have you finished?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.

Mr. JENNER. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does--I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"

She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."

Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive--that is November 1.

Mr. Rankin said: "That is on November 1?"

She said: "Yes."

She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."

Does that refresh your recollection in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.

Mr. JENNER. That it was more toward the middle of the afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, 3:00 or 3:30.

Mr. JENNER. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.

Mr. JENNER. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection, also.

Mr. JENNER. That is your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And that was Mr. Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is, you don't want to take issue with Marina's testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't; no.

Mr. JENNER. It possibly could have happened that way?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly could have.

Mr. JENNER. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. I did indeed. May I interrupt?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Could we have a short break?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mrs. PAINE. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mrs. PAINE. That seems correct to me.

Mr. JENNER. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever engage in any political activity?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it offhand.

Mr. JENNER. Your sister, Sylvia?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; of course.

Mrs. PAINE. But you don't mean that?

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't have any specific recollection.

Mr. JENNER. And you never did?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is your brother a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Or your sister?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know that.

Mr. JENNER. Your relations with your mother and your father--would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you exchange correspondence?

Mrs. PAINE. We do, and photographs of the children.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that has always been true, has it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?

Mrs. PAINE. When we visit. We are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters.

Mr. JENNER. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.

Mrs. PAINE. There has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?

Mrs. PAINE. For a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?

Mrs. PAINE. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. It covers a span of years going back to your college days?

Mrs. PAINE. And a few papers prior to college.

Mr. JENNER. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record, please.

We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.

Mrs. PAINE. I gave no cash.

Mr. JENNER. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.

Mr. JENNER. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.

Mrs. PAINE. That was in late April.

Mr. JENNER. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing except this one I have mentioned, the time and temperature.

Mr. JENNER. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.

Mr. JENNER. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was----

Mrs. PAINE. No, the shoes were for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?

Mrs. PAINE. That is distinctly my impression.

Mr. JENNER. They never paid you anything, in any event?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.

Mrs. PAINE. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.

Mr. JENNER. So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At least during the time that Marina was with you.

Mrs. PAINE. At least during the fall; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?

Mrs. PAINE. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.

Mr. JENNER. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.

Mrs. PAINE. That is my impression.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is distinctly to the contrary.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall no such.

Mr. JENNER. The purchase of camera film and the development of camera film?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?

Mrs. PAINE. I read in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Not by either Lee or Marina that I heard of.

Mr. JENNER. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; a few snapshots taken in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. But no snapshots of any scenes in America that they had taken?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or people?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Hutch's Market--is that something familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is--it is too far to walk--I am quite certain----

Mr. JENNER. How far away is the place?

Mrs. PAINE. It would be a 3-minute drive--about 10 blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Ten blocks away?

Mrs. PAINE. Something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Is it further away than the----

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Than the market of which you spoke where you took Lee to----

Mrs. PAINE. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.

Mr. JENNER. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?

Mrs. PAINE. He would eat a sweet roll if there was one.

Mr. JENNER. On occasion did he pack a lunch?

Mrs. PAINE. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say there was anything regular about that?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You recall only that one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss any finances in your presence?

Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what the busfare is from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.

I am going to mark those three transcripts Exhibit 461 for identification.

They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.

(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that letter.

Mr. JENNER. And was it in 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.

In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:

"He has been out of work"--I will read the whole paragraph.

"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."

That is Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much."

Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?

Mrs. PAINE. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.

Mr. JENNER. From New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.

Mr. JENNER. But this does not refresh your recollection?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It does?

Mrs. PAINE. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in the next paragraph it says:

"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."

That was your feeling at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. After New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.

Mr. JENNER. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not expect that.

Mr. JENNER. As to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for Marina and they would be together again?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. West 5th Street--and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?

For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.

Do you recall the letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:

"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."

Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?

Mrs. PAINE. I think that is clear in the next sentence.

Mr. JENNER. All right; read the next sentence.

Mrs. PAINE. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."

We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. 1964?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.

Mr. JENNER. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a contrary feeling?

Mrs. PAINE. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.

Mr. JENNER. State?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?

Mrs. PAINE. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.

Mr. JENNER. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I really didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.

Mr. JENNER. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.

Mrs. PAINE. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.

Mr. JENNER. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.

Mrs. PAINE. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me----

Mr. JENNER. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her----

Mrs. PAINE. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.

Mr. JENNER. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?

Mrs. PAINE. Not that specifically.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. When they first returned from Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.

I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.

Mr. JENNER. Denton, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Brother Robert?

Mrs. PAINE. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?

Mrs. PAINE. I am now aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?

Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression----

Mr. JENNER. In the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?

Mrs. PAINE. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was----

Mr. JENNER. What date was this?

Mrs. PAINE. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can't think----

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.

Mr. JENNER. Where? In Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.

Mr. JENNER. Did he come out with any mail?

Mrs. PAINE. Magazines, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or his experiences in the service?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?

Mrs. PAINE. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. Did she elaborate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?

Mrs. PAINE. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January-February, I don't know just when.

Mr. JENNER. Late January or early February?

Mrs. PAINE. I would guess so.

Mr. JENNER. Of this year?

Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate that incident to us?

Mrs. PAINE. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known her?

Mrs. PAINE. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.

Mr. JENNER. All right; proceed.

Mrs. PAINE. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what her questions were?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall; no.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.

Mr. JENNER. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four--no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.

Mr. JENNER. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?

Mrs. PAINE. You can certainly see them.

Mr. JENNER. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express any opinion on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.

Mr. JENNER. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. My overall impression progressed through several stages.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.

Mrs. PAINE. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.

And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.

When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.

He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.

And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.

Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while----

Mr. JENNER. His only human contact?

Mrs. PAINE. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time----

Mr. JENNER. Of the assassination?

Mrs. PAINE. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.

Mr. JENNER. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall specifically----

Mr. JENNER. And to you and your children?

Mrs. PAINE. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters--no; I mentioned that to the record--came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.

Mr. JENNER. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I think I have testified that----

Mr. JENNER. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful.

As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.

And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.

Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.

Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.

Mr. JENNER. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Understand in the sense that it might be something----

Mrs. PAINE. In terms of what I saw.

Mr. JENNER. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. As a child.

I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.

Mr. JENNER. Took fewer and fewer risks?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.

Mr. JENNER. Or being hurt?

Mrs. PAINE. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.

Mr. JENNER. Not being accepted?

Mrs. PAINE. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.

But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.

I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you were of her age, were you?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I am older than she. I am 31.

Mr. JENNER. You are 31 and she is what?

Mrs. PAINE. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.

Mr. JENNER. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?

Mrs. PAINE. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.

Mr. JENNER. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned--Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some contact with him?

Mrs. PAINE. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. JENNER. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.

Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?

Mrs. PAINE. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.

And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.

From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.

I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.

I came--perhaps I should interrupt here.

Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are--since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.

Mr. JENNER. When I come to Irving this coming week?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. The morning of the 23d of November.

Mr. JENNER. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.

Mr. JENNER. Her gratitude for what?

Mrs. PAINE. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing, really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.

Mr. JENNER. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."

Mr. JENNER. They don't know?

Mrs. PAINE. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.

Mr. JENNER. Has she?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.

Mr. JENNER. We have that in evidence, have we?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. May I see it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.

The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.

Mr. JENNER. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?

Mrs. PAINE. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all--it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.

Mr. JENNER. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina----

Mr. JENNER. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. PAINE. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was at night?

Mrs. PAINE. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me----

Mr. JENNER. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?

Mrs. PAINE. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.

Mr. JENNER. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.

Mr. JENNER. She has?

Mrs. PAINE. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.

Mr. JENNER. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?

Mrs. PAINE. Indicated that she had received my letters.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.

Mr. JENNER. Of this year?

Mrs. PAINE. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you make that inquiry?

Mrs. PAINE. Why did I make that inquiry?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.

Mr. JENNER. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?

Mrs. PAINE. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one----

Mr. JENNER. You mean isolated from her friends?

Mrs. PAINE. All right; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said----

Mr. JENNER. She said----

Mrs. PAINE. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. You had learned it in the meantime?

Mrs. PAINE. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.

Mr. JENNER. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.

Mr. JENNER. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, indeed; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.

Mr. JENNER. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.

Mrs. PAINE. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.

Mr. JENNER. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like that if it comes about.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?

Mrs. PAINE. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs. Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?

Mrs. PAINE. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?

Mrs. PAINE. On several occasions.

Mr. JENNER. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.

Mr. JENNER. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she----

Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only your impression now.

Mrs. PAINE. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.

Mr. JENNER. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.

Mrs. PAINE. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.

Mr. JENNER. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke--that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?

Mrs. PAINE. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. February?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Pick them out according to dates.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.

Mr. JENNER. All right; distinguish between them, please.

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.

Mr. JENNER. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?

Mrs. PAINE. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the previous year?

Mrs. PAINE. She was born in 1962.

Mr. JENNER. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"

Mr. JENNER. Entered where?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 22d of February, and from this----

Mr. JENNER. And you have already testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. This was written after.

Mr. JENNER. After?

Mrs. PAINE. This was written indeed after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read?

Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October?

Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November.

Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23?

Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23.

Mr. JENNER. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 20th.

Mr. JENNER. This is the square having the date March 20?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Identify it, please, first as to date.

Mrs. PAINE. And this written at the time--it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."

Mr. JENNER. You have already testified about this incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any others?

Mrs. PAINE. Not for the month of March.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Then there is an entrance on----

Mr. JENNER. An entry?

Mrs. PAINE. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.

Mr. JENNER. You have testified about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.

Mr. JENNER. Entry, you mean again?

Mrs. PAINE. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.

Mr. JENNER. You testified about that, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."

Then there was an entry referring to the Oswalds----

Mr. JENNER. You mean theirs?

Mrs. PAINE. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."

Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean you didn't write it on the 30th of April?

Mrs. PAINE. I wrote that later. I learned that date some time in the fall.

Mr. JENNER. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Let's take May.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.

Mr. JENNER. About which you have testified?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. The next entry----

Mr. JENNER. The next one relating to the Oswalds.

Mrs. PAINE. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified about that entry and that event?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

Mr. JENNER. Any other entries on the May calendar relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now drop down to June, please.

Mrs. PAINE. No entries relating to the Oswalds in June.

Mr. JENNER. Turn the page and go to the calendar for July.

Mrs. PAINE. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.

Mr. JENNER. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them, please?

Mrs. PAINE. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to----

Mrs. PAINE. And this was written shortly after that event.

Mr. JENNER. To go back to Texas?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. When was that entry made?

Mrs. PAINE. These were both made after our arrival back.

Mr. JENNER. But shortly afterwards?

Mrs. PAINE. Very shortly.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say you had a luncheon engagement?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back?

Mrs. PAINE. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. It is now 1 o'clock. We will be back at 2.

Could you finish this calendar?

Mrs. PAINE. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.

Mr. JENNER. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."

Mr. JENNER. You had it in the wrong place initially?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And then you put it in the right place eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.

Mr. JENNER. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?

Mrs. PAINE. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.

Mr. JENNER. How soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry?

Mrs. PAINE. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."

Mr. JENNER. And that refers to Marina's child Rachel?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.

Mr. JENNER. And was it entered contemporaneously with the event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; right after.

Mr. JENNER. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.

Mr. JENNER. That is the child of Lee Harvey, Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. The older daughter.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have turned the page to the calendar for November.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.

Mr. JENNER. What day is this?

Mrs. PAINE. On Saturday, the 2d of November.

Mr. JENNER. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Beginning Friday or beginning Saturday, or possibly he wasn't out.

Mr. JENNER. You recall that the FBI interviewed you on Friday, November 1.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have an entry to that effect?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I did not mark that down.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection.

Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.

Mr. JENNER. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind you that she had a dental appointment?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.

Mr. JENNER. What date is this?

Mrs. PAINE. Veterans Day, the 11th. It was a Monday.

Mr. JENNER. It is a Monday. And he was at home?

Mrs. PAINE. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.

He was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.

In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it was but one TB examination visit?

Mrs. PAINE. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.

Mr. JENNER. Could those double entries indicate that?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there were three entries. She only went twice.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Is it possible you might have gone three times?

Mrs. PAINE. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Have you identified all three entries now?

Mrs. PAINE. I have.

There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.

There is an entry on the 22d of November "9:15 a.m., Lynn Lollar."

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell Lynn?

Mrs. PAINE. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified.

There is also in pencil----

Mr. JENNER. Its significance is that it took you out of the home.

Mrs. PAINE. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina.

This brings us to December.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?

Mrs. PAINE. That is exactly it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.

Mr. JENNER. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.

Mr. JENNER. And did you keep the appointment with Planned Parenthood?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?

Mrs. PAINE. Her husband was killed before it was time to go.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Lee Oswald was?

Mrs. PAINE. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. I go on to December.

There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.

There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "well baby"?

Mrs. PAINE. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.

Mr. JENNER. I think you did.

Mrs. PAINE. There is an entry on November 5, "Vine Clinic 12 o'clock."

Mr. JENNER. And that was to be a visit by Marina with her child?

Mrs. PAINE. June.

Mr. JENNER. June. Did that include Rachel as well?

Mrs. PAINE. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.

Mr. JENNER. That Marina should?

Mrs. PAINE. No, that is the baby.

Mr. JENNER. The baby June?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first--no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic?

Of course, that never took place.

Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.

Mr. JENNER. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?

Mrs. PAINE. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this just adds to that indication.

Mr. JENNER. So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. To live with him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

There is a a notation on December 4, "Clinic 6 weeks".

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

The first of those entries was made on November 5, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Just a minute.

No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963----

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963----

Mrs. PAINE. December 3.

Mr. JENNER. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I can give a little more detail on this.

Mr. JENNER. I wish you would, on that.

Mrs. PAINE. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving----

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.

Mr. JENNER. I am not trying to get the exact date. I am really----

Mrs. PAINE. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.

Mr. JENNER. And was it in the month of October?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.

Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her----

Mr. JENNER. Her clinic care?

Mrs. PAINE. Her association, her clinic, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And during the course of that conversation, go on----

Mrs. PAINE. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to just continue in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Because----

Mrs. PAINE. Because they would be again in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And that squared with your impressions at that time?

Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it did.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Return to the record.

Mrs. PAINE. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go if a child is ailing.

Mr. JENNER. And who was ailing? Or possibly so?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.

Oh, no; I recall now why we went.

At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.

Mr. JENNER. F-r-e-e-m-a-n?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has--I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy.

Mr. JENNER. It was on Marina's?

Mrs. PAINE. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.

My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. JENNER. This was a part of the postnatal care?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?

Mrs. PAINE. Not to my knowledge, and I would be surprised.

Mr. JENNER. Surprised? Why?

Mrs. PAINE. If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We will adjourn until 2:15.

(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The proceedings reconvened at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?

The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.

Mr. JENNER. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.

Mrs. PAINE. These have no significance to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the B page, left and right.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance.

Mr. JENNER. Bell Helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. The next page is the C page, left-hand.

Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.

Mr. JENNER. I am what?

Mrs. PAINE. You are still on B.

Mr. JENNER. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Anything on there relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that?

Mrs. PAINE. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there related to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mrs. PAINE. Also nothing related.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing there.

Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance with relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. Next is the reverse of the E page and the first face of the F page.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people--there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian--it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Is this located in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. PAINE. This is in New York City. And----

Mr. JENNER. You have not frequented that place before?

Mrs. PAINE. I have been in there before, yes; in a different year.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted?

Mrs. PAINE. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job--if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.

Mr. JENNER. Then the reverse of the page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. Next, the reverse of the F page and the first face of the G page.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.

Mr. JENNER. And her son-in-law is?

Mrs. PAINE. Ilya Mamantov.

Mr. JENNER. And at the bottom of the page?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing else?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the G page and the face of the H page.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant there.

Mr. JENNER. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that in your testimony?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Next is the reverse of the G page and the facing page of the H page.

Mrs. PAINE. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.

Mr. JENNER. And his telephone number----

Mrs. PAINE. Is there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two pages--the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?

Mrs. PAINE. None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives, and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. JENNER. Next would be--there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side----

Mrs. PAINE. They are not in your exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But they are not in the exhibit.

Mr. JENNER. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.

Mrs. PAINE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do not appear as part of Commission Exhibit 402?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. JENNER. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page in which the top letter is L.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing here.

Mr. JENNER. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. There is one significant entry for Dutz and Lillian Murret.

Mr. JENNER. 757 French Street, New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Telephone number HU 8-4326.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Those are the aunt and uncle of the late Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And this was filled in after my second visit to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. How long after? You mean while you were there?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.

Mr. JENNER. It was during your visit--your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. There is one above that, is there not?

Mrs. PAINE. And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony--Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.

Mrs. PAINE. This just gives a current address for the same person--Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is N.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing significant here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.

Mr. JENNER. No other entry of significance on that page?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which is Q.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is the page the top letter of which is R.

Mrs. PAINE. Significant here is an entry for Ed and Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. JENNER. Those are your next door neighbors?

Mrs. PAINE. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony--that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.

Mr. JENNER. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing of significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite----

Mrs. PAINE. The last one you had was facing.

Mr. JENNER. And this is the reverse side of the S page. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, would you identify the Strattons?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing else on the S page?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears to be T.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page on which the top letter appears also as U.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; no significance here.

Mr. JENNER. But the first name on which refers to Dick Uviller.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be V.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which appears to be W.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance here.

Mr. JENNER. The next is a page the top letter of which is Y.

Mrs. PAINE. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the Youngs?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And there are three entries.

Mrs. PAINE. No. The first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives.

Mr. JENNER. That is a different Young entirely?

Mrs. PAINE. That is.

Mr. JENNER. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris--those are your in-laws?

Mrs. PAINE. And Arthur Young's father, Charles Morris Young.

Mr. JENNER. Charles Morris Young is Arthur M. Young's father?

Mrs. PAINE. Father.

Mr. JENNER. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?

Mrs. PAINE. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.

She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.

She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce--to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall--I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.

I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did--I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.

She was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.

She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you--you brought something out about Russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that this was also a hope on her part.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. It wasn't clear to me when this hope arose.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.

Mrs. PAINE. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?

Mrs. PAINE. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did she have her children baptized in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. One of the first things I knew--and this was told to me in March of 1963--one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.

Mr. JENNER. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion----

Mr. JENNER. Legitimate theater?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion----

Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.

Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?

Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.

Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a woman.

Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.

Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.

Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been?

Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have been?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.

Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station.

Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police station?

Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought----

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why?

Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it.

Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?

Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that----

Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?

Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.

Mr. JENNER. Hurt what?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.

Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him?

Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I wrote it.

Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Socially?

Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?

Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.

Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word "calling" in the testimony.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words--intellectual decision?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.

Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?

Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual decision.

Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one.

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity?

Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what was--Essie?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.

Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?

Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.

Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.

Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. His political views?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all.

Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read.

Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?

Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned.

Mr. JENNER. By either she or him?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect----

Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.

Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?

Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Did she?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.

Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning.

Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?

Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading.

Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading?

Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.

Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?

Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say?

Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.

Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said.

Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us that.

Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.

Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction?

Did she indicate an awareness of that?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?

Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?

Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.

Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?

Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?

Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections.

Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.

Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact.

Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?

I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.

Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.

But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.

And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.

I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.

I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.

Mr. JENNER. In his presence?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?

Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.

Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.

Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.

Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son?

Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?

Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?

Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature.

Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.

Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?

Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.

Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?

Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that.

First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.

I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.

On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.

I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----

Mr. JENNER. Perused?

Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.

I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just makes more poignant my grief.

Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.

Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.

Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?

Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.

Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.

Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. I assume that means Russian language----

Mrs. PAINE. Training?

Mr. JENNER. Trn.

Mrs. PAINE. Probably. It is not familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.

Mrs. PAINE. Could it be hospitality?

Mr. JENNER. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.

Mrs. PAINE. This organization is not familiar to me.

May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.

Mr. JENNER. This is Spruce.

Mrs. PAINE. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on other than weekends?

Mrs. PAINE. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.

Mr. JENNER. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?

Mrs. PAINE. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?

Mrs. PAINE. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.

And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.

I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.

Mr. JENNER. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?

Mrs. PAINE. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.

I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.

Mr. JENNER. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.

Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they made no such inquiry.

Mr. JENNER. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; they would be the same.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.

Mrs. PAINE. Marina testified, did you say?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect?

I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.

Mrs. PAINE. On what day?

Mr. JENNER. Fourth of October 1963.

Mrs. PAINE. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I said that.

Mrs. PAINE. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that----

Mr. JENNER. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, at no time from October--including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?

Mrs. PAINE. That he was carrying?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. My statement is correct?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.

Mr. JENNER. Did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When--part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park--she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.

Mr. JENNER. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?

Mrs. PAINE. Future pregnancies; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was devoted solely to that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.

Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy--that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.

Mrs. PAINE. I am of the opinion that--saying the Russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.

Mr. JENNER. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or----

Mr. JENNER. It is the antithesis of democracy?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.

Mr. JENNER. And that is abhorent to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?

Mrs. PAINE. I have an aversion.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.

Mr. JENNER. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And they were very brief.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever read the Manifesto?

Mrs. PAINE. The Communist Manifesto?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. That was part of the same course.

Mr. JENNER. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you did not pursue it thereafter?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital, would your answers be the same?

Mrs. PAINE. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you have not read it?

Mrs. PAINE. I have not read it.

Mr. JENNER. Even in connection with a college course?

Mrs. PAINE. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.

Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly do not.

Mr. JENNER. And quite the contrary.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what your activities--you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I am.

Mr. JENNER. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?

Mrs. PAINE. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.

Mr. JENNER. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. PAINE. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?

Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.

Mr. JENNER. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?

Mrs. PAINE. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.

Mr. JENNER. Or might be?

Mrs. PAINE. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.

Mr. JENNER. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.

Mrs. PAINE. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.

Mr. JENNER. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary--and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does--then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are.

You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?

Mrs. PAINE. My vocabulary----

Mr. JENNER. I mean sentence construction.

Mrs. PAINE. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many more mistakes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when you compose a letter?

Mrs. PAINE. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?

Mrs. PAINE. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home--I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.

Mr. JENNER. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. How fluent was--I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?

Mrs. PAINE. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.

Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?

Mrs. PAINE. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read--he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading--it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary--not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.

Mr. JENNER. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?

Mrs. PAINE. I gathered so.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say it in his presence?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.

Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about--I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties in that connection?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.

Mr. JENNER. And she rather than Lee?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject----

Mrs. PAINE. Of things he had told me himself?

Mr. JENNER. That is right. That emanated from him.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think of anything.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.

Mr. JENNER. Borrowed it from the State Department?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say it was unusual?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.

Mr. JENNER. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.

Mrs. PAINE. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.

Mr. JENNER. Unusual in what sense?

Mrs. PAINE. That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.

Mr. JENNER. Was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?

Mrs. PAINE. That was the impression it left me with, yes.

She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?

Mr. JENNER. Anywhere in Russia.

Mrs. PAINE. Including her family background?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.

Mr. JENNER. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job--I never did understand.

Mr. JENNER. You mean job in the sense of position?

Mrs. PAINE. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever speak of her father?

Mrs. PAINE. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she mentioned--and I think I have said so--that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference--that difference in America as compared with Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.

Mr. JENNER. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate any reaction to that?

Mrs. PAINE. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less--for that reason, and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. And her visiting him every day?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it--I am not sure I remember now.

Mr. JENNER. Have we exhausted you on that subject?

Mrs. PAINE. I am exhausted.

Mr. JENNER. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.

Mr. JENNER. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to--among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.

Mr. JENNER. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?

Mrs. PAINE. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.

I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that--give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.

Mrs. PAINE. You wish my opinion now?

It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.

Mr. JENNER. From that, you conclude what?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.

Mr. JENNER. What leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in what sense?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?

Mrs. PAINE. And, of course, that is rationalization.

Mr. JENNER. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I think that is all.

Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?

Mrs. PAINE. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that may be affected--of course, you must understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.

Mrs. PAINE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is a----

Mrs. PAINE. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read--and perhaps it is not so--but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?

Mrs. PAINE. That would be my opinion.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; she never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. That she suspected it?

Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely nothing.

Mr. JENNER. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained--the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.

I was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me--and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.

And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement.

Mr. JENNER. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?

Mrs. PAINE. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.

Mr. JENNER. Batista?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes--which is not saying a great deal.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.

Mrs. PAINE. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know as I can put a term on it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period--that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?

Mrs. PAINE. It was my impression that he had been looking for work.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no other impression?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?

Mrs. PAINE. Are you asking did I arise earlier than she?

Mr. JENNER. No. I am asking when you did. Then I will ask you when she did.

Mrs. PAINE. I usually got up around 7:30 or 8.

Mr. JENNER. When did she arise?

Mrs. PAINE. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.

Mr. JENNER. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?

Mrs. PAINE. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. PAINE. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever show you any correspondence she received?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.

Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not believe she had Communist leanings when she arrived.

Mr. JENNER. And is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?

Mrs. PAINE. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?

Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds, together or separately.

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, you have a full account.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?

Mrs. PAINE. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you really have any common interest?

Mrs. PAINE. With Marina?

Mr. JENNER. Well, any common interest with Lee--did you have any?

Mrs. PAINE. No; not really.

Mr. JENNER. And any activities with him?

Mrs. PAINE. Car driving teaching.

Mr. JENNER. That's about all?

Mrs. PAINE. That's it.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything--I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had--or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not too sure. I think you have intimated it.

Mrs. PAINE. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no common--you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. No--that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?

Mr. JENNER. Other groups, civic activities generally.

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no plan or direction to those activities.

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina--it would have to be on the 23d of November--about the blanket package and the gun in the package?

Mrs. PAINE. On the 23d?

Mr. JENNER. Did you have one--I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. None that I recall; nor the day following, either.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. That is the only thing I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Lee Oswald's ownership of a firearm?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; the only time.

Mr. JENNER. Or use of it.

I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. That concludes the questions Representative Ford had in mind.

I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.

You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. And you never kept any?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have already answered that--that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.

Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the friend?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I was curious, though, about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.

Mrs. PAINE. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?

Mrs. PAINE. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.

Mr. JENNER. But you know of no other?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot think of any other.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?

Mrs. PAINE. No; in Dallas?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall that. $310 a month?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mrs. PAINE. And he was definitely offered such a job?

Mr. JENNER. Well, I won't say it was offered--that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.

Mrs. PAINE. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you know about that. Did you hear of it at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please relate that to me?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall some reference to----

Mr. JENNER. How did it come about?

Mrs. PAINE. From Lee, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time, or just right----

Mrs. PAINE. It was at the time, while he was yet unemployed.

Mr. JENNER. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency I don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

Mr. JENNER. But that was----

Mrs. PAINE. That is my best recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Of his report to you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his discussing it.

Mrs. PAINE. I recall something of that nature. I do not recall the job itself.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

It appears to be a note from you addressed to "Dear Marina" signed "Ruth."

Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is familiar to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare and transmit the original?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When did you do that?

Mrs. PAINE. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.

Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, examination of that letter which I completely had forgotten.

Mr. JENNER. Having that----

Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like a very valid description----

Mr. JENNER. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest--and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when?

Mrs. PAINE. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.

Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically Russian--as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within.

Mr. JENNER. And when you use the expression--you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from your--inner prompting.

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine--your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.

Mr. JENNER. That that is your present recollection.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?

Mrs. PAINE. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.

Mr. JENNER. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?

Mrs. PAINE. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About how many?

Mrs. PAINE. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, there was--a pocket dictionary.

Mr. JENNER. Was that an English-Russian, or just----

Mrs. PAINE. Just English.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your dictionary or was it his?

Mrs. PAINE. It was not mine.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any reason why--I will restate the question.

Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no feeling of that sort.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling?

Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.

Mr. JENNER. Pardon?

Mrs. PAINE. Except your question.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.

Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?

Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television?

Mrs. PAINE. I know I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I think German World War II variety.

Mr. JENNER. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my clear recollection.

Mr. JENNER. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly does.

Mr. JENNER. I am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, there is no recollection whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.

Mrs. PAINE. Of that sort of thing.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she mention the Manner Bakery?

Mrs. PAINE. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.

Mr. JENNER. And in that connection, had she mentioned the Texas Gypsum Co.?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that.

Mr. JENNER. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.

Mr. JENNER. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall him saying anything of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?

Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. PAINE. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked--he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to----

Mr. JENNER. Would that be a nontoll call?

Mrs. PAINE. That was a toll call.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.

Mr. JENNER. Did he speak with you on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you completed all you wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Are you going to ask me if he came?

Mr. JENNER. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection of the phone call. He then did come.

Mr. JENNER. And when did he come?

Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.

My best judgment is that he actually came then on the 19th of November.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And how long did he stay?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Did he visit with both you and Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; he did.

Mr. JENNER. And were arrangements made for his return on another occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.

Mr. JENNER. And was this strictly a social call?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see. Lee Oswald was not home on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. I mean he was not in Irving on that occasion.

Mrs. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, I have only one more question.

Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I wish you would--how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it--all you knew about it up to and including November 22.

Mrs. PAINE. I knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.

Mr. JENNER. This was after November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.

I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only--Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word--that it said "This key"--using the word "key" rather than the Russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. And that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said----

Mr. JENNER. That is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that--I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.

We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze--this in Russian--saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.

Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.

I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.

Mr. JENNER. And some few small articles were purchased?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived home when--about noon?

Mrs. PAINE. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.

Mr. JENNER. What did he do that afternoon, if you recall?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did he look at television?

Mrs. PAINE. My guess is that he certainly looked at television.

Mr. JENNER. Did you leave your home late that afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Either going to or from the driver's license bureau?

Mrs. PAINE. No, we did not stop at a car dealers.

Mr. JENNER. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. I think he could not have been.

Mr. JENNER. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?

Mrs. PAINE. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.

Mrs. PAINE. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, please.

Mrs. PAINE. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. That is Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. PAINE. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.

Mr. JENNER. The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mrs. PAINE. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.

Mr. JENNER. You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that was out in the open.

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?

Mrs. PAINE. Two of them.

Mr. JENNER. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?

Mrs. PAINE. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.

Mr. JENNER. So yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At his quarters?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I meant the place of work.

Mr. JENNER. At Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.

Mrs. PAINE. That's my opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection.

Mr. JENNER. If you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it.

Mrs. PAINE. I was certainly not conscious of it.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?

Mrs. PAINE. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East--this was before I had plans to--definite plans to teach for the summer.

She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.

After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.

Mr. JENNER. And you so told her?

Mrs. PAINE. And I told her so, after she had written a letter.

Mr. JENNER. And that letter of hers is in evidence?

Mrs. PAINE. No; it is not. She only refers to having written this letter.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit 415?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful.

On behalf of myself and the Commission, I express to your our appreciation.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I am very glad to be of help.

Mr. JENNER. We have no further questions as of this time.

Mr. Reporter, we will close this particular deposition.

Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.

Mrs. PAINE. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.

Mr. JENNER. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.

Mrs. PAINE. Monday morning. So realizing--while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.

Since we are in a different jurisdiction now, Mrs. Paine, may I swear you?

Mrs. PAINE. You may affirm me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. PAINE. To the very best of my ability, I do so affirm.

Mr. JENNER. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.

We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.

Mrs. PAINE. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it--it's around 43 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Shall we measure it, then?

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)

Mr. JENNER. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is--why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high.

Mr. JENNER. Three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high?

Agent HOWLETT. Right.

Mrs. PAINE. That's not very wide is it--39 inches?

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?

Mrs. PAINE. I'll do my best.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.

Mr. JENNER. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.

Mrs. PAINE. Street.

Mr. JENNER. On Fifth Street.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is that, an elm or oak?

Mrs. PAINE. It is an oak.

Mr. JENNER. An oak tree--I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know--I guess it is a two-door.

Mr. JENNER. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.

Mrs. PAINE. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.

Mr. JENNER. The house is not occupied--that home?

Mrs. PAINE. It has not been occupied for over a year.

Mr. JENNER. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.

It was unoccupied, then, during the time that Marina stayed with you last fall?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?

Mrs. PAINE. I would like to put my children to bed now.

Mr. JENNER. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.

It is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.

Agent HOWLETT. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles?

Agent HOWLETT. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.

Mr. JENNER. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?

Agent HOWLETT. That's correct, you can't even see the numbers.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we will suspend for your convenience now.

(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; you were accurate.

Mr. JENNER. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day--yes.

Mr. JENNER. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it, or night, if it was night?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to think what else was going on.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mrs. PAINE. My best estimate--it was afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. I'll ask you this, it was during the daytime?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was during the day.

Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to the state of the weather?

Mrs. PAINE. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure--absolutely certain of that.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was it Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it was. He had someone else with him that time.

Mr. JENNER. And did the other FBI agent come in with Agent Hosty?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, just barely across the threshold.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ascertain that license number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you make any attempt to do so?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I made no attempt to.

Mr. JENNER. Was Marina Oswald in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. She was in my home.

Mr. JENNER. When they arrived, where was she in your home?

Mrs. PAINE. When they arrived, she was in the front bedroom.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing was said that might indicate that.

Mr. JENNER. Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?

Mrs. PAINE. Nothing at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?

Mrs. PAINE. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me----

Mr. JENNER. You had noticed that at the time?

Mrs. PAINE. I had noticed that.

Mr. JENNER. And how did that come to your attention?

Mrs. PAINE. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.

Mr. JENNER. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?

Mrs. PAINE. The first time.

Mr. JENNER. The neighbor to whom you refer is Mrs. Roberts?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And her home is next door to the west?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right--2519.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?

Mrs. PAINE. How did we use the term?

Mr. JENNER. You said he said he parked down the street.

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.

Mr. JENNER. The whom?

Mrs. PAINE. The Ponders.

Mr. JENNER. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]?

Mrs. PAINE. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that's east.

Mrs. PAINE. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is--you know, Westbrook.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the crossroad?

Mrs. PAINE. In other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the Randles.

Mr. JENNER. Is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.

Mr. JENNER. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day--November 1st?

Mrs. PAINE. I believe I did--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?

Mrs. PAINE. There was only one the first time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I can't recall. But I would think it likely that I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where was Marina on that occasion?

Mrs. PAINE. She was in the living room with me.

Mr. JENNER. Was she beside you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you both looking out the window?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best I can recall.

Mr. JENNER. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November 1st?

Mrs. PAINE. Not with 20-40 vision.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have 20-40 vision?

Mrs. PAINE. It's 20-40 or 20-50--I forget.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't have an opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Did Agent Hosty pass in front of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall at all.

Mr. JENNER. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.

Mr. JENNER. At any rate, you did not look at the license plate?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And seek to ascertain the number?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina did?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she could have?

Mrs. PAINE. That's possible--she might have if one can see that with normal vision.

Mr. JENNER. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I certainly didn't see her write anything down.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your impression, if you had any?

Mrs. PAINE. I have none.

Mr. JENNER. You just weren't thinking of license plates at all?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. Were you thinking of them on the fifth?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I notice you have a bathtub shower?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald in the habit of taking a shower?

Mrs. PAINE. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his having done so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?

Mrs. PAINE. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?

Mrs. PAINE. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.

Mr. JENNER. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly hear it.

Mr. JENNER. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; especially that close to morning.

Mr. JENNER. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?

Mrs. PAINE. I made no notice such as that.

Mr. JENNER. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't say as it is.

Mr. JENNER. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?

Mrs. PAINE. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.

The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Directly in front of us--I am standing right behind you--on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that door opens onto what?

Mrs. PAINE. It goes into the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.

Agent HOWLETT. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.

Mr. JENNER. So that the space west----

Mrs. PAINE. That's east, I'm sorry.

Mr. JENNER. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how wide is that?

Agent HOWLETT. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.

Mr. JENNER. And how high?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 6 feet 8-1/2 inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?

Mrs. PAINE. It lights the light in the dining area.

Mr. JENNER. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?

Mrs. PAINE. I would expect so.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that it did?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't specifically recall--I recall the shot which included that area.

Mr. JENNER. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.

Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.

Mr. JENNER. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?

Agent HOWLETT. It is actually about 6-3/4 inches to the center of the light switch.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?

Mrs. PAINE. The outside garage door--the large one?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. It is closed and has been since you arrived.

Mr. JENNER. And the door that is leading into the garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.

Mr. JENNER. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now, I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.

Mr. JENNER. And would you snap it on?

Mrs. PAINE. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)

Mr. JENNER. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?

Agent HOWLETT. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?

Agent HOWLETT. Six and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?

Agent HOWLETT. Right.

Mr. JENNER. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 21 feet 8 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get it across.

Agent HOWLETT. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Agent HOWLETT. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it is how many feet and inches deep?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet one inch deep.

Mr. JENNER. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it does.

Mr. JENNER. And I judge--well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?

Agent HOWLETT. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.

Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I suppose so.

Mr. JENNER. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for--my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November--in there in the storeroom.

Mr. JENNER. All right, that's an interesting development. When you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. I think I would have noticed it.

Mr. JENNER. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.

Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?

Mrs. PAINE. I surely would have.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, John Joe, what is that--2 feet by 2 feet?

Agent HOWLETT. Roughly--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.

Mr. JENNER. And did you have occasion----

Mrs. PAINE. There was a fan in it for a while--is there now?

Agent HOWLETT. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.

Mrs. PAINE. It has been more recently moved over.

Agent HOWLETT. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection it was--yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which you can push up and slide over easily?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to do it yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. I never have.

Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know its heft or weight?

Mrs. PAINE. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.

Mr. JENNER. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?

Mrs. PAINE. It's a portable fan.

Mr. JENNER. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection one way or the other?

Mrs. PAINE. None.

Mr. JENNER. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?

Mrs. PAINE. It could have been.

Mr. JENNER. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not see anyone do that.

Mr. JENNER. I am only asking while you were present--while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?

Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection they did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

The blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.

Mr. JENNER. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk?

Mrs. PAINE. No; a student desk.

Mr. JENNER. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?

Mrs. PAINE. That's an ice chest.

Mr. JENNER. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also--are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. They are in the same position.

Mr. JENNER. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. A little fuller.

Mr. JENNER. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.

Agent HOWLETT. It's 7 feet 9 inches.

Mr. JENNER. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.

There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot five inches.

Mr. JENNER. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.

The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?

Agent HOWLETT. Two feet eight inches.

Mr. JENNER. Would you measure off 45 inches on that--we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.

Mrs. PAINE. That's it.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. No; that's the second time--it's where it was on November 22.

Mr. JENNER. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. As I recall--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot eight inches.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.

Mr. JENNER. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?

Agent HOWLETT. The center of it is about 3-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.

Mrs. PAINE. I'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the outside edge of the package was.

Agent HOWLETT. The inside edge?

Mr. JENNER. Which do you say is inside?

Mrs. PAINE. Let me take more packages--I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?

Mr. JENNER. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?

Mrs. PAINE. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.

Mr. JENNER. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?

Agent HOWLETT. Four and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot two and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position--I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.

Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is--I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And it is a Craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?

Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.

Mr. JENNER. And how wide?

Agent HOWLETT. One foot nine and one-half inches.

Mr. JENNER. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?

Agent HOWLETT. The saw table is 3 feet 2-1/2 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 4 feet 7 inches.

Mr. JENNER. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?

Agent HOWLETT. It is 2 feet 7-1/2 inches.

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