Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your attention of any kind?

Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in my mind at this time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this----

Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he--during this period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends.

I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at Biloxi, Miss.

Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or more of you?

Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were somewhat different than the other fellows.

Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base?

Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever around there.

Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave card periods?

Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the Biloxi area, is your impression?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, the town, the community, I'm not sure.

But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base.

Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top.

Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency be a pretty fair rating?

Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus.

Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was.

Mr. JENNER. You don't?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to El Toro, you went by your own respective routes?

Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together.

Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. And I want to say, it was Bandoni----

Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection?

Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the other fellows there.

Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not.

Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station----

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1957.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the intervening period, that is, this leave period?

Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect.

Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas?

Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted----

Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having lived for a while in Texas?

Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is where he went.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It was sometime in August, around the first of August.

Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th?

Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro approximately a month then?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there?

Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"?

Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a replacement trainee.

Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for overseas.

Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher authority?

Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what he was told and that was it.

I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline.

Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time?

Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man rather than Oswald the rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going to let anybody else get what he could have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period of time that you were at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and got in the July draft.

Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late off his leave, he took an extra week or something.

It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he took his leave in.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For overseas?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship?

Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the same ship.

Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail?

Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you?

Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats and Mike boats.

Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat?

Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts.

Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the 21st of August, am I correct?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they are not given to individuals as such.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, what foreign port?

Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama.

Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now.

Mr. JENNER. What was the military base?

Mr. POWERS. That we reported to?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. Atsugi.

Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base?

Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's primary mission is a Navy base.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group?

Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he----

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald appears in?

Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated.

I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or anything like that.

Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force--rather Marine base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a while and talk to him.

And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan.

Mr. JENNER. I-O-W-C----

Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling season.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the platoon or group to Oswald.

Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe play--usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to 8 hours, playing chess.

Mr. JENNER. Four?

Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased when he would win.

And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his life.

And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I still have the book.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the United States," and democracy, and books of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books?

Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops--I'll use that for a lack of a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up and it was standard procedure, I assume.

Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit?

Mr. POWERS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read "Leaves of Grass"?

Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug store or something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the people that had more education than the average marine there.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader?

Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"?

Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal?

Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself this way.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that regard?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in Mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. I can't recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did this to----

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on the trip over?

Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards.

Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over?

Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were----

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of this man during this period of time?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of the Marines, you might be good gangsters?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this particular period of time or not, I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement?

Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think it was--this was a common statement, but as I recall, he--he did say this.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some griping----

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. This would be normal.

Mr. JENNER. Or something similar?

Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance to it.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, what was your assignment?

Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and assigned to crews within this squadron.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that?

Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1.

Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at Atsugi, Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar operator?

Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played football during the fall and during this period of time we would play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the Philippines, and I stayed in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron went down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January----

Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1?

Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group.

Mr. JENNER. About how many men?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that?

Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in range or where he could see it visually, and they took over.

Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, if it didn't have the identification system on.

Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy----

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew.

Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually looking for hot bogeys?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I was playing football or----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football?

Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics?

Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out?

Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, in the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation?

Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and then this--something----

Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a particular period of time; and then there was another operation going to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the next operation.

Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point?

Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but they were designated--Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay was the landing area.

Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where he got that, and now you explained it for us.

Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c?

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it.

Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong.

Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's Cubi Point and Subic Bay.

Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was for the aircraft.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when you rejoined the squadron?

Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty.

Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns?

Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway.

Mr. JENNER. Was there--you don't know what the official finding was with respect to----

Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it?

Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a guy could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way [indicating], and "boom," it went off.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in that incident?

Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all.

Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald.

Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the chamber free of slugs?

Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure--again I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your chamber itself should be kept free.

Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as happened.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with your radar scanning assignment?

Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned personnel do it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this happened again, I think, after the rest of the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were two of us, or three of us from the squadron.

Mr. JENNER. Who were they?

Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private--Private, First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which Oswald was included in, for the mainland.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the mainland?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot?

Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, so he must have been there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection with these special airplanes of which you now speak?

Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went up. I think this is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were shipped to Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or 6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland.

Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division in the operation of military exercises.

Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi Point?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated aircraft, scanning for it.

Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I have a picture of it in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he?

Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out of the year.

Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment?

Mr. POWERS. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months?

Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer.

Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. LST.

Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your recollection?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March period.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind at Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do--did you return then to Atsugi?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. About when?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there?

Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which part of the body it was.

Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow.

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been.

Mr. JENNER. What was your information and what is still your information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot.

Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure.

They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually court-martialed then, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon?

Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol.

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if any?

Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I think this was the feeling of the group at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of the squadron with respect to him----

Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to----

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time?

Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during this period?

Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew----

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I want to recall it or something that is actually fact.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully.

Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure speculation?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on.

Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that because he had the unregistered or private weapon?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that----

Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else.

Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing?

Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves?

Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement to him again.

Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is that what you mean?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country.

Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty?

Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went on liberty.

Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty?

Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day.

Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends?

Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.

Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Per month?

Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the Philippines, Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that?

Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play football; I don't remember what that was.

Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.

Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you?

Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across----

Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?

Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after I left Japan.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en route most of June.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to him?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it.

Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he did or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities?

Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular connection?

Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, Ozzie."

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in Japan, but I'm not sure, though.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian language as such?

Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no.

Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language?

Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses.

Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant?

Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant before I left to come home, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand up for his own rights?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that first 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your presence?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that I would recall.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you?

Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other marines?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while.

Mr. JENNER. He would?

Mr. POWERS. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident----

Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back----

Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion?

Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.

Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee?

Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard that name associated with him.

Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated?

Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it----

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or----

Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type of thing. I'm not sure what it was.

Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have.

Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines.

Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.

Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball?

Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different.

Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.

And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed to be.

Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them.

Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?

Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that account?

Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic problems or school.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he was?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the Browning automatic rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I asked you this--to keep by himself?

Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself?

Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself.

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that because----

Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan because he was not a member of your platoon?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?

Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado?

Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thornley?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall?

Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of----

Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph.

Mr. JENNER. Murray?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Call?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?

Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. Camarata?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably recall.

Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the name of John E. Donovan?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now.

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c.

Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.

Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why----

Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned----

Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned.

Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN

The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely.

The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of President Kennedy.

The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.

Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these documents?

Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va.

Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown University.

Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio.

Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. For how long?

Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think.

Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in 1956.

Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service.

Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were both members of the Marine Corps.

Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and I will interrupt with questions.

Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at El Toro?

Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I believe, 5 miles removed.

El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of "LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a radar base.

In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came into contact with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them.

I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs.

Mr. ELY. Who told you this?

Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine.

Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and Oswald.

Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew I was the officer in command.

Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.

Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact?

Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch.

During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion to talk to him.

Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.

Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. Most of them I had served with in Japan.

Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan?

Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond.

Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in working with them to talk with them about all subjects.

You were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.

I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well.

Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there is any point in going into that any further.

Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job?

Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions.

Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.

He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate.

Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform?

Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have occasion to inspect them.

But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I believe he was transferred to another hut.

Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially----

Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy.

Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations.

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him.

Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal.

Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald and his fellow enlisted men?

Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes.

Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He read a great deal.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the Russian language?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel--although----

Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know.

Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.

Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content?

Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation.

I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation.

His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you very much."

As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?"

In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia.

And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man."

And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international affairs.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.

I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.

But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.

Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was not an unpopular belief at that time.

Mr. ELY. What did he say?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?

Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him saying it to anyone else.

Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things?

Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared even that companionship with them consistently.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer----

Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and can talk to her.

Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?

Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality?

Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which Oswald did extensive reading in?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some philosophers.

Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.

I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?

Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later action.

Mr. ELY. Hegel.

Did he mention Marx?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support anything in particular.

Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages other than Russian and English?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't believe he had a command of Spanish.

Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding German at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school anywhere?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.

There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in Moscow.

Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country.

Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or wherever I was talking with them about.

But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and Central American family, and their regime as a family.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in Asia or Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.

Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports.

Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, at any rate, he stopped playing.

Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.

Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.

Were you the captain of this team?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember him.

Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?

Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.

Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had a slender build.

Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.

Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school.

Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?

Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated to a normal degree.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.

Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.

Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in.

Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.

I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times out of 10.

Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no reason to suspect that he did.

Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, and punch the target before the NCO got there?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day.

For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2," and so on. So it would be most unusual.

But I suppose it does happen.

Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's characterization?

Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.

But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking about.

Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.

Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of NCOs and officers?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.

Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was brighter than the officers he was talking to?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, at least in facts.

I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of intelligence.

Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange.

Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when she was with him?

Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have known.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, either.

I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.

He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been able to recall them a month later, either.

Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.

And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be.

Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.

Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.

He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this.

And that kind of stuff you cannot change.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.

Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief.

Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt. Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where Sergeant Brown is.

Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his work.

Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle.

Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated leadership qualities?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader.

Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide never to use him as a crew chief again?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief.

Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning transportation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could, including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him.

Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers?

Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did not from anyone.

Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them?

Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help.

Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just word around the squadron.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get a discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an only son, and his mother needed help.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be termed mental instability?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when anyone is solely interested in one given thing.

Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly angry, did he raise his voice?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in trying to get you to see what he saw.

Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms of pounding the table, screaming?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically worked up than people we talk with every day.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, et cetera.

I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.

Do you recall whether or not he played chess?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious beliefs?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he----

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God.

Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you were at Santa Ana?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights.

Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you particularly interested in girls.

Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his desires?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about them.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall.

Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor?

Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not.

Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny?

Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times.

Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed?

Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect.

Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would suggest an interest in the Soviet Union?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of these books--I don't recall which one--but say, "Are you familiar with this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international economics.

Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for?

Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. What were they?

Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie.

Mr. ELY. Anything else?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie?

Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether----

Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now?

Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right.

Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international economics, although they might well have been.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date or something.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average marine, or that he took fewer trips?

Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of the ordinary in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at Santa Ana?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors.

Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me.

Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That spelling is strictly phonetic.

Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't ring a bell at all.

Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and see whether you think----

Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to say which would be most----

Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them individually.

Do you remember a man named Thornley?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. All right.

How about a man named Lewis?

Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. Botelho?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by the nickname, normally enough, of Bo.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would characterize Call as being modestly intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but in reference to his character concerning his intelligence.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very dependable boy.

Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same crew with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair to say that all the men on the crew would know him?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day he went home--whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers?

Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him.

Mr. ELY. Osborne?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew him.

Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant Brown.

Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I think he is now Captain Trail.

Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I have already mentioned?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area.

Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him.

Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I don't know if he would remember Oswald or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars?

Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended offpost bars or night clubs?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not.

Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, less?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan.

Mr. ELY. But from your own----

Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he drank to excess.

Mr. ELY. But he did drink some?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact.

Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the questions I have for you.

Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to figure out what sort of a man Oswald was?

Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it.

The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana.

Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on the phone a couple of times, passing through there.

Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people that were there at the same time.

Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended to ask you.

Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, or anything that sounded like that?

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?"

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time and testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC

The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Colonel FOLSOM. I do.

Mr. ELY. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you with these documents, is that correct?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is true.

Mr. ELY. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony.

You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

Colonel FOLSOM. It is waived.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Colonel FOLSOM. Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir?

Colonel FOLSOM. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. How long have you held this position?

Colonel FOLSOM. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of an idea of your background--what you did before you entered the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. I was a student.

Mr. ELY. And how long have you been in the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. I entered active duty in the Marine Corps 5 August 1935.

Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us in what connection that was?

Colonel FOLSOM. It was in connection with his record, which was requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship, and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge.

Mr. ELY. I see. And that is the first time you had ever heard of him?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever meet the man?

Colonel FOLSOM. No.

Mr. ELY. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test scores and things like that.

Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is.

(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Colonel FOLSOM. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine.

Mr. ELY. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the upper right-hand corner.

We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page 1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean.

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, 24 October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment.

Mr. ELY. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Pay entry base date.

Mr. ELY. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. In this instance it was days lost due to confinement.

Mr. ELY. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class swimmer. What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Unqualified.

Mr. ELY. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to "SA" action.

Colonel FOLSOM. Supervisory authority action in a court-martial.

Mr. ELY. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us generally what this page of the record is.

Colonel FOLSOM. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows conduct and proficiency markings.

Mr. ELY. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned?

Colonel FOLSOM. The Marine Corps marks on a scale of from 0 to 5.0.

Mr. ELY. 5.0 is the maximum grade?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? Is there no minimum?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; there is none as such, because the markings are averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under honorable conditions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable discharge would be?

Colonel FOLSOM. I believe--was the question under honorable conditions?

Mr. ELY. Well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge?

Colonel FOLSOM. 4.0.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company, Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time.

Mr. ELY. Now, this would have been while he was----

Colonel FOLSOM. He joined on 4 May 1957.

Mr. ELY. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air Force Base.

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; undergoing duty under instruction.

Mr. ELY. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital Yokosuka, Japan.

Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated "To Du" would mean return to duty?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what?

Colonel FOLSOM. That it was a semiannual marking.

Mr. ELY. In other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that is abbreviated "To Cnfd."

Colonel FOLSOM. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means?

Colonel FOLSOM. Duty under instruction.

Mr. ELY. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. In this case he was a replacement trainee.

Mr. ELY. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September 1957 is?

Colonel FOLSOM. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan.

Mr. ELY. And what was the job that he performed?

Colonel FOLSOM. He was an aviation electronics operator.

Mr. ELY. All right. I think that with the help you have given us, anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress of Oswald's service.

Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. It is a basic MOS in aviation electronics, I believe.

Mr. ELY. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of that entry?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Is there any way of evaluating his score of 113?

Colonel FOLSOM. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by their local organizations.

Mr. ELY. But the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to time?

Colonel FOLSOM. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate--it is controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill the needs of the Marine Corps by--in the varying grades.

Mr. ELY. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D" designation.

Can you explain what the difference is?

Colonel FOLSOM. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It is a dependency allotment.

The "D" allotment, I believe, is an additional voluntary contribution.

Mr. ELY. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to send out of his pay?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some of the abbreviations found in this record.

Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1 Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course. Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The "B" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are fired.

Mr. ELY. But both of these courses are such that one can record a score?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a result of the scores.

In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with the abbreviation "MM" for marksman.

When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is a correct designation in accordance with the score fired.

Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he would have been still in basic training at San Diego?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point?

Colonel FOLSOM. It would have been 210.

Mr. ELY. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45 caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated "FAM." That stands for familiarization?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And that means that no scores----

Colonel FOLSOM. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the people with the operation of the weapon.

Mr. ELY. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the next highest, and expert would be the highest category?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled "Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these two abbreviations?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks' duration.

Mr. ELY. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; it is an Air Force School.

Mr. ELY. And do people from all branches of the service get trained there?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; we have cross training with all the other services.

Mr. ELY. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores achieved by Oswald mean?

Colonel FOLSOM. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation.

Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates "poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This, again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor."

Mr. ELY. This 4 means he got four more questions right than wrong?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses, and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong.

His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout.

Mr. ELY. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was composed of six examinations.

Oswald's scores I see range from as low as 92 to as high as 125.

Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, and what Oswald's scores in each of them means?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. I will take this in sequence.

The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest.

The abbreviation "AC"--arithmetical computation--and the score Roman numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class.

"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area.

"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he was the bottom portion of the third group in this category.

Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a result of Oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107.

Mr. ELY. Would you explain the one designated "RCT"?

Colonel FOLSOM. The abbreviation "RCT" is--represents radio code test. There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to 109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group III.

Mr. ELY. Which is the lowest group.

Colonel FOLSOM. Which is the lowest.

Mr. ELY. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial, and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about one sentence which to me seems to be in error.

According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title "Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be remitted without further action."

However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June 27, 1958."

So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is that the suspension of the sentence was vacated?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry.

Mr. ELY. Right.

So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated.

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the first sentence.

Mr. ELY. That is correct. Thank you.

On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of" Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found not guilty?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II, which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him.

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958, indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour had been received and approved.

Must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is involved?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the individual concerned.

Mr. ELY. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer than he was scheduled to have been over there?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958.

Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for this cancellation was?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a result of the disciplinary action.

Mr. ELY. So we might guess that because this followed his second court-martial, that was the reason?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; and it followed it very closely.

Mr. ELY. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating to one event.

On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro from Yuma.

Is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went to Yuma?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS, El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense exercise, the first one held during 1959.

Mr. ELY. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in the Marine Corps.

It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career, private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your E-4 is a corporal?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. This is under the new rank structure.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Confined, serving sentence--it should be summary court-martial, but let me look at the record.

Mr. ELY. You mean there should be three "S's"?

Colonel FOLSOM. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a special in here.

Yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a document relating to the high school level general educational development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page 106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests, and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile.

However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was tested were. Could you tell us what they are?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One, English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences; four, physical sciences; five, mathematics.

Mr. ELY. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in which it appears on the report.

Mr. ELY. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald received a rating of satisfactory?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Mr. ELY. Right.

Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the lower right-hand corner.

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "D" with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory.

Mr. ELY. So he could have received a higher rating than he did?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of these numbers insofar as you can?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics, two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and 54 on the second.

The last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject.

Twenty-five hours physics, score, 75 and 77.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are on a scale of 100?

Colonel FOLSOM. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score.

Mr. ELY. I see.

Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous test carried out to three digits without the decimal point.

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This report was prepared on an electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret.

Mr. ELY. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the individual scores.

Colonel FOLSOM. Do you want to go through all of these?

Mr. ELY. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have explained the principle by which the scores are recorded.

Colonel FOLSOM. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT".

These are raw scores.

Mr. ELY. The ones designated RV, AC, AR, and PA?

Colonel FOLSOM. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery, and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation is quite close.

The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated Exhibit 239.

This exhibit is a photostatic copy.

Could you tell us, Colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy?

Colonel FOLSOM. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1.

Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification.

They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is, he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired.

Mr. ELY. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will do well on his record firing?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even on the day that he fires for record.

In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the purpose for which it was designed.

Mr. ELY. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at 200 yards slow fire--on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand position----

Mr. ELY. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in Oswald's scorebook?

Colonel FOLSOM. Right--well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them--all 10 shots within the four ring.

Mr. ELY. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than that if he were a good shot?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position.

Mr. ELY. And what was his score?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, total shown on page 22 would be--he got a score of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his record book.

On Wednesday, he got a score of 38, improved four points.

Do you want to compute these?

Mr. ELY. I don't see any point in doing this page by page.

I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his career he was not a particularly outstanding shot.

Colonel FOLSOM. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates--as a matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter.

Mr. ELY. In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for qualification?

Colonel FOLSOM. I would say so.

Mr. ELY. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you about the ones that seemed most confusing to me.

Can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the record?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic copy contains everything that is in the original record.

And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary court-martial records.

Mr. ELY. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention during your testimony today?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. All right.

In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN

The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated.

My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

Is it correct that I have provided you with copies of these documents?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony.

You were not given 3 days' notice.

However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Captain George Donabedian, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy.

Mr. ELY. And what position exactly do you hold?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. You are an M.D., is that correct?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. ELY. How long have you held the position of staff medical officer?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Since July 1959.

Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; I had not.

Mr. ELY. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald--in other words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the man.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.

Mr. ELY. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)

Mr. ELY. Doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is?

Captain DONABEDIAN. This is taken from the health record of the marine.

Mr. ELY. It is, in other words, a photostatic copy----

Captain DONABEDIAN. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance, and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the inoculations he receives.

Mr. ELY. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document, Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1 runs from 132 through 171.

Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147 of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958.

Could you explain it?

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown and very hard. Examination."

Mr. ELY. The copy at that point becomes illegible.

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave him treatment with mineral oil.

Mr. ELY. And what was the overall diagnosis?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Hemorrhoids was the diagnosis.

Mr. ELY. And what did you say the treatment was?

Captain DONABEDIAN. The treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository.

Mr. ELY. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we just referred, and that is the entry dated----

Captain DONABEDIAN. 10-6-57. "Urethritis acute. Nonvenereal."

Mr. ELY. Before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of 10-10-58?

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on 10-13-58.

Mr. ELY. Do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids?

Captain DONABEDIAN. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding.

Mr. ELY. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through 156 of this exhibit.

I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning.

Captain DONABEDIAN. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has urethral discharge."

Mr. ELY. Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point----

Captain DONABEDIAN. Then they took a smear.

Mr. ELY. What is the purpose of a smear?

Captain DONABEDIAN. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present.

And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug of choice.

On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear taken.

September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to the lab for a smear.

And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci."

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it.

And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like 400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear."

Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago."

In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture.

Then on September 22----

Mr. ELY. I believe the last item was September 20.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it says "September 23" underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture."

The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that gives a dark-greenish color discharge.

Mr. ELY. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can we tell?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one.

The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the 16th.

Mr. ELY. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear rather than a culture?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they treat the patient for gonorrhea.

Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given. And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is. Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given.

On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. And that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were noted."

The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To repeat smear, 1 week."

October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive cocci."

This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has been doing heavy lifting recently."

"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting recently."

October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day.

No--"return in 5 days."

They just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in 5 days.

"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram positive cocci noted."

The next date is hard to tell. Something--"qid for for 5 days."

The next thing is hard to tell.

Mr. ELY. All right. That entry is illegible.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list, 9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No. 0303. And in handwriting----

Mr. ELY. That is my handwriting, so we will disregard that.

Captain DONABEDIAN. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging sensation on urination. Past history--previous venereal disease. Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling gonorrhea."

Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not absolutely be certain.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that under this previous history column it mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to this time?

Captain DONABEDIAN. At another time, in his past, whenever that would be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different kinds.

Mr. ELY. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to any prior case during his military career?

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; except those that we reported within those dates.

Treatment was procaine penicillin, 900,000 units, intramuscularly for 3 days.

Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000 units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units.

Mr. ELY. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156 is something of a summary.

Captain DONABEDIAN. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and observation.

Mr. ELY. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a typical case of gonorrhea?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; it does.

Mr. ELY. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem that he did have gonorrhea at this point?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.

Mr. ELY. These medical records also contain entries relating to the gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into at this point.

Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal marine's complaints.

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other infection, otitis media, in 1957.

Mr. ELY. That reference appears at page 150.

Captain DONABEDIAN. And they give him penicillin, 600,000 units, 5 days.

I see nothing else.

Mr. ELY. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping to explain these records for us.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Thank you.

AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO

The following affidavit was executed by James Anthony Botelho on June 3, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, County of San Benito, ss:

I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957, to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California.

Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train Castro's troops because of the money he would earn.

I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with others.

Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as "Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to "American capitalist warmongers."

At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia.

Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either unironed or sloppily ironed.

As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa Ana.

Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have some of the classical records we purchased together. I recall that he particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player, although he was better than I was.

It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him" in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was likely to get better results from him by treating him politely.

I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks.

It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him; for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana. I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out."

Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be intoxicated.

I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall any remarks concerning his religious beliefs.

I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of his receiving any visitors.

Signed this 3d day of June 1964, at San Juan Bautista, Calif.

(S) James Anthony Botelho, JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO.

AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA

The following affidavit was executed by Donald Peter Camarata on May 19, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, County of Santa Cruz, ss:

I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the following military installations while we were both members of the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana, California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville, Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in the same unit at that time.

While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks.

Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one person.

Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines. I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post.

Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However, he generally followed such orders.

Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe he was intelligent.

I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian. I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors--either the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant--asked Oswald why he read this paper.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women on his part; or of his receiving any visitors.

Oswald was nicknamed "Oz".

Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at Santa Cruz, Calif.

(S) Donald Peter Camarata, DONALD PETER CAMARATA.

AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR

The following affidavit was executed by Peter Francis Connor on May 22, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CONNECTICUT, County of New Haven, ss:

I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he wore an expert rifleman's medal.

I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he characterized as the greatest man in history.

Although Oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a Robert Demurs--I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was.

Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of his superiors with insolent remarks.

I have no recollection to how much Oswald drank.

I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal, but I do not remember what sort of books he read.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it.

I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his attitude toward women, or what he did off post.

Signed this 22d day of May, 1964, at West Haven, Conn.

(S) Peter Francis Connor, PETER FRANCIS CONNOR.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF

The following affidavit was executed by Allen D. Graf on June 15, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF NEW YORK, County of Erie, ss:

I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961. While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon Sergeant.

Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing to listen to the views of others.

Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around."

Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or opposing capitalism.

It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly.

Oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports.

It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in the "high expert" range.

Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had a temper--in check.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any dates.

Signed this 15th day of June, 1964, at Buffalo, N.Y.

(S) Allen D. Graf, ALLEN D. GRAF.

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL

The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF LOUISIANA, Parish of New Orleans, ss:

I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of authority.

While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as "Hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name.

Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or international affairs.

While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care whether or not he got back to the post on time.

Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines.

Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know what his activities off post were.

I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames.

Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, I am unable to remember Oswald's being there.

Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La.

(S) John Rene Heindel, JOHN RENE HEINDEL.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on May 15, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF FLORIDA, County of Duval, ss:

I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts.

Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual.

Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he--unlike Delgado--was not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention.

I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School.

Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this.

I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his studying either Spanish or German.

Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian newspaper.

Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his being called "Oz".

Signed this 15th day of May, 1964, at Duval County, Fla.

(S) David Christie Murray, Jr., DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.

AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL EDWARD MURPHY

The following affidavit was executed by Paul Edward Murphy on May 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, County of Orange, ss:

I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took it to Corregidor.

Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he had received from superiors, but followed them.

Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in sympathy with Castro.

One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened, Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was not authorized to possess.

While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's receiving other literature of a Socialist nature.

I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or German.

Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however, personally quite neat.

Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight.

It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I remember that Oswald--like everyone else--watched Dick Clark's American Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess.

I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs.

I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where he went on those occasions when he did leave.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname for no reason other than that it was his middle name.

I do not recall Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 16th day of May, 1964, at Santa Ana, Calif.

(S) Paul Edward Murphy, PAUL EDWARD MURPHY.

AFFIDAVIT OF HENRY J. ROUSSEL, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Henry J. Roussel, Jr., on May 25, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF LOUISIANA, Parish of Baton Rouge, ss:

I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for approximately three or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in Santa Ana, California.

On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to studying Russian, Oswald had studied German.

I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me--and, as far as I know, to my fellow Marines--that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us responded by calling him "Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to recordings of Russian songs.

My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt.

I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper, and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.") I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald.

Signed this 25th day of May, 1964, at Baton Rouge, La.

(S) Henry J. Roussel, Jr., HENRY J. ROUSSEL, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF MACK OSBORNE

The following affidavit was executed by Mack Osborne on May 18, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS County of Lubbock, ss:

I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him.

Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian--which I believe he bought in Los Angeles--with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember their names.

I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him famous. In retrospect, it is my belief--although he said nothing to this effect--that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this statement.

Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow Marines.

My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability. Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks inspections.

Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave him alone.

Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan, he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan.

I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he took such accusations in fun.

Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest to others that he was.

Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions.

Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had been to Los Angeles--implying that he had simply gone to break the monotony.

I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called "Oswald" or--by those who knew him well--"Lee Harvey".

I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 18th day of May, 1964, at Lubbock, Tex.

(S) Mack Osborne, MACK OSBORNE.

AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD DENNIS CALL

The following affidavit was executed by Richard Dennis Call on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA County of Northampton, ss:

I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September, 1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959, I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to, and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were stationed together.

It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends.

Oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning Russian.

Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were of approximately equal ability.

Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, Oswald seldom, if ever, participated.

During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of Russian classical pieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?" I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich." However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to the Soviet Union or Cuba.

On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer.

I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base movie theatre.

Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well as the average radar operator.

Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated.

Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try to hide his lack of enthusiasm.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying either Spanish or German.

It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswald wanted to be thought of as intelligent.

Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to anger Delgado.

Oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and Stoic.

Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 20th day of May, 1964, at Helltown, Pa.

(S) Richard Dennis Call, RICHARD DENNIS CALL.

AFFIDAVIT OF ERWIN DONALD LEWIS

The following affidavit was executed by Erwin Donald Lewis on June 6, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA Orange County, ss:

I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance.

Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he seldom left the base.

It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he could read, write, and speak Russian.

I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I heard--although of this I am not completely certain--that he had a subscription to that publication.

Signed this 6th day of June, 1964.

(S) Erwin Donald Lewis, ERWIN DONALD LEWIS.

TESTIMONY OF MARTIN ISAACS

The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony.

The Commission will provide you with a set of those documents.

Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or not, but----

Mr. ISAACS. They told me yesterday about it. It's quite all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume that you do wish to waive it.

Mr. ISAACS. I waive, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, sir.

We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962.

Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. ISAACS. Martin Isaacs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. ISAACS. 1669 Grand Avenue, Bronx, New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed at the present time?

Mr. ISAACS. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center, Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you so employed in June of 1962?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Isaacs?

Mr. ISAACS. I was born in Hungary, December 12, 1904.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States?

Mr. ISAACS. I was about 2 or 3 years old. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a citizen of this country?

Mr. ISAACS. I am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents?

Mr. ISAACS. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received derivative citizenship.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you employed by the department of welfare?

Mr. ISAACS. Since May 12, 1934.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New York; is that correct?

Mr. ISAACS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family?

Mr. ISAACS. I do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the best recollection that you have concerning that event?

Mr. ISAACS. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family was in the Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this.

My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time. He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would be needed to help this family return to Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had been informed at that time that they desired to return to Texas?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at the moment--I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who handled the family inside of our intake--told us that this family was in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a repatriated family.

In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir?

Mr. ISAACS. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself there, and so they go--either they go directly to our Embassy in the country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the role that I played in this as I remember--using my memory here----

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go into that.

Mr. ISAACS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family was a repatriated family?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned.

When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr. LIEBELER. She is with the New York State Department----

Mr. ISAACS. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were.

Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get enough information in our application blank to show that there was a brother--I believe it was Robert--who lived in Texas, and I made a telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with his wife--I don't remember her first name--and I told her that Mr. Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this money--I don't remember the amount that was involved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone call?

Mr. ISAACS. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it in their presence.

Now, when I got this information, and she told me--her name was also Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say--she told me that this money would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had with Mr. Oswald. I--excuse me----

Mr. LIEBELER. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and spoke to his wife?

Mr. ISAACS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she told you that she would call her husband and find out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back?

Mr. ISAACS. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back.

In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in and told the Oswalds about this--Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak English--at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to speak to her?

Mr. ISAACS. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet these expenses, if they can.

Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and asking for the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had done this without telling him----

Mr. ISAACS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it?

Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they usually get about relatives.

Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are requesting to return to.

Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us.

Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. Oswald herself.

I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, although I don't know just what had transpired between them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference?

Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him.

Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on that subject yourself?

Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could be made for his return the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York overnight that night?

Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I believe it was.

Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at the hotel, as I recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?

Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the next day, do you remember?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall that at all, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on one day?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office?

Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is that correct?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is that correct?

Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his return from Russia?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection with this matter?

Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like that to the FBI agent?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that Oswald had said that?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as this to the intake worker when he came into the office?

Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the office, that Oswald----

Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as I remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.

Mr. ISAACS. Sure.

(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked Exhibit 1.)

Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?

Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared at a time when a client appears in your office?

Mr. ISAACS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr. ISAACS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually filled out by an applicant.

Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department.

Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it not?

Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records of the resource consultant; is that right?

Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald case?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.

(Witness complies.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott?

Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize that, do you not?

Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact that you had with him that you haven't told us about?

Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring it to the attention of the administrator.

But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along with their luggage, et cetera.

The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child and----

Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To feed the child?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?

Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time. He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the administrator.

Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we used.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this report?

Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.

At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the FBI.

Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We appreciate it very much.

ISAACS. We are only too happy to help.

TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES

The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BATES. I do.

Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not?

Mrs. BATES. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional--I have been. My name is Pauline.

Mr. JENNER. Pauline Virginia--isn't it?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is Pauline Virginia Bates.

Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized by the Commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the Commission.

Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number 11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the Rules of Procedure of the Commission?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, and any contacts on your part with any of the parties.

We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes of his?

Mrs. BATES. They weren't transcribed; they were copied.

Mr. JENNER. You copied them?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed them from longhand into typing?

Mrs. BATES. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so.

Mrs. BATES. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could find.

Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside now?

Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth?

Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession?

Mrs. BATES. I'm a legal public stenographer.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer?

Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth, 10 years--a little over 10 years.

Mr. JENNER. And is there a difference between being a legal public stenographer and a public stenographer?

Mrs. BATES. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth that has legal training.

Mr. JENNER. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law work?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir--Forest Grove, Oreg.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area?

Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.

Mr. JENNER. And you came from where?

Mrs. BATES. Oakland, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your business or occupation when you were in Oakland, Calif.?

Mrs. BATES. Legal stenographer--legal secretary.

Mr. JENNER. That has always been your--insofar as you have had a business or occupation--it's been that?

Mrs. BATES. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards.

Mr. JENNER. Out on the coast?

Mrs. BATES. Richmond. I have also been a waitress.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going too far.

Mrs. BATES. I don't have anything to hide.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'm sure you don't.

During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. BATES. He was known to me as Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. BATES. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that acquaintanceship arose.

Mrs. BATES. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one in the public stenographers.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he attired on that occasion?

Mrs. BATES. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket.

Mr. JENNER. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on?

Mrs. BATES. No; didn't have a shirt on.

Mr. JENNER. No shirt?

Mrs. BATES. Just a little white T-shirt--undershirt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. It was in June.

Mr. JENNER. In June? What time of the day or night was it?

Mrs. BATES. It was in the morning. Let's see--I turned those records over to the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me your best recollection.

Mrs. BATES. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on the 18th of June 1962.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What was said by him and by you?

Mrs. BATES. He asked if I could do some typing for him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself first?

Mrs. BATES. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, "Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was--that he was--then, he told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you say?

Mrs. BATES. I said it was either 2-1/2 an hour or a dollar a page.

Mr. JENNER. A page being 8-1/2 by 11--letter-size sheets?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, I think it was 10 by 14 or something--one of those large ones. And he said, "I have some notes here"----

Mr. JENNER. I have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that----

Mrs. BATES. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--but I'm holding this up only for size.

Mrs. BATES. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little wider.

Mr. JENNER. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]--it's 15 inches.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time to, you know, send abstracts out in.

Mr. JENNER. That's 15 by 9.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I am sure, as I remember it--of course, now, this was some time ago--it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15--and it looks like what I use.

Mr. JENNER. And it had a flap on it?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are Carrollton Clasp or something like that.

He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?"

He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin.

Mr. JENNER. We fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office.

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil."

He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." So, we agreed that I would do it--but I hadn't seen them yet.

Mr. JENNER. You hadn't seen the notes yet?

Mrs. BATES. Huh-uh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion?

Mrs. BATES. Yes. He had it with him.

Mr. JENNER. What agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate?

Mrs. BATES. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious to get on it.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you become anxious to get on it?

Mrs. BATES. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I thought he was just a kid.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school students.

And then I started asking him some questions--"Why did you go to Russia?"--and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some of em he wouldn't.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was said on that occasion.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence.

Mr. JENNER. Okay.

Mrs. BATES. We agreed that I would start typing the notes--and he wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon--he wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't want to leave----

Mrs. BATES. I couldn't keep a copy of anything.

Mr. JENNER. Did you agree that you would do the job under those circumstances?

Mrs. BATES. That's what he wanted--and my customers are always right.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, "It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?"

And he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the Marine Corps and had taken elementary Russian--a course in elementary Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. BATES. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange student--if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes--I didn't know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that.

He said, "No"--that the State Department finally agreed to let him go over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him in case he got in trouble or anything.

So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that.

And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia.

Mr. JENNER. His writings were bitter against working conditions?

Mrs. BATES. And living conditions. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say when he had prepared these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Just whenever he could.

Mr. JENNER. When in Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes?

Mrs. BATES. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time----

Mr. JENNER. Were these 3 successive days?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th.

Mr. JENNER. Did he spend substantially all day with you?

Mrs. BATES. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days.

Mr. JENNER. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was there?

Mrs. BATES. I worked. And--uh--I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, single-spaced.

Mr. JENNER. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were having some trouble interpreting these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it--I mean, translate it for me. And--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. A lot of it was scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word phonetically surreptiously], he just had to do it when Marina would cover for him while he was doing this.

Mr. JENNER. Marina would cover for him?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to you, that he was making these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch for him so that nobody would know that he was making them.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing this--because he could have got in trouble.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. He--well, there wasn't much time to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. And he was very cool and----

Mr. JENNER. Cool? You mean reserved?

Mrs. BATES. Cold.

Mr. JENNER. Cold?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Very matter of fact?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to answer it, he'd just shut up.

Mr. JENNER. He'd just ignore you?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have lived out in that part of town."

He said, "Arlington Heights."

So--that's--that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing else to say. In other words--"Just don't say anything more."

And--uh--I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it was too rich.

Mr. JENNER. He said that she had become ill?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, because they hadn't had enough food in a long time.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was that they----

Mrs. BATES. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think, when----

Mr. JENNER. Well, he arrived June 12--so, he was only--when he reached your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort Worth papers which witness brought with her].

Mr. JENNER. Well, I will in a moment.

I want to get from you--what was his attitude toward Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that goes. But these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "Anything you hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These May Day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after dark."

And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once mentioned the word "Communist."

Mr. JENNER. Either in his notes or orally to you?

Mrs. BATES. He just said "the party."

Mr. JENNER. The Party? Those are the words he used--the expression, rather?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because there was always a party person around and he'd report you.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the translation and the notes--to read them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to become a citizen of Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a 2-year visa and, of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go ahead and we'll send her to you."

"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again."

So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so much cain until they finally let him.

Mr. JENNER. Raised cain with whom?

Mrs. BATES. The Russians.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave until they let her go.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the Government of the United States?

Mrs. BATES. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward the United States?

Mrs. BATES. No; I've thought and thought--and, of course, I've been asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got 10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into detail on them. Conversations--he had actual conversations that he had had with different people over there.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, he had?

Mrs. BATES. If you could find those notes, I tell you--they were fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"--was what it was. And they were coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence according to city and dates and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. How was his spelling?

Mrs. BATES. Well, the English was fair.

Mr. JENNER. The spelling?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. He was an accurate speller?

Mrs. BATES. Fair.

Mr. JENNER. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but it's----

Mr. JENNER. I am--when I have my secretary.

Mrs. BATES. Yeah [laughter].

College students are notoriously bad spellers.

Mr. JENNER. Particularly law students.

Mrs. BATES. Well--no--particularly psychology majors. They're terrible!

Mr. JENNER. Did you type all of his notes?

Mrs. BATES. No; not even a third of them.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me that circumstance.

Mrs. BATES. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was--uh--quite nervous. Uh--the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk and--uh--if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting to know where I was--and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, "Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I can't let you go on."

And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he could pay me.

And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a $10 bill out of his pocket and walked out.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or did he take them back with him at night?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed--even the carbon paper.

Mr. JENNER. Even the carbon paper?

Mrs. BATES. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper.

He did tell me that--I think it was the second day--that there was a man in Fort Worth--and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--I just saw the letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put into book form--manuscript form.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your recollection?

Mrs. BATES. No. Uh--I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it didn't register with me.

Mr. JENNER. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer?

Mrs. BATES. He said he was an engineer--he told me that. But there's lots of engineers in----

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.

Mrs. BATES. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me.

Mr. JENNER. Lee told you that this other person----

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh, this engineer.

Mr. JENNER. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had read all the notes.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes."

And the man could read and speak Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. That much he did tell me.

And I just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife?

Mrs. BATES. Yes--uh--some.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. BATES. That--uh--she loved America and had wanted to come and that she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and stay. And that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and the shops--and that New York had just astounded her.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And Texas climate--uh--was really good for her.

Mr. JENNER. The climate, you mean?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And--uh--he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had a child.

Mr. JENNER. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned?

Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I didn't know he had any.

Mr. JENNER. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point at which he had married Marina?

Mrs. BATES. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did.

Mr. JENNER. What impression do you have as to the period of time in Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed?

Mrs. BATES. Well, it was on Minsk and--uh--that one that starts with "K"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could get the time and get away from people.

And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together in just a few months. It was too detailed.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. I see.

And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes?

Mrs. BATES. About--from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, really, because they were all sizes--the paper was.

Mr. JENNER. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance?

Mrs. BATES. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced pages.

Mr. JENNER. That was letter size?

Mrs. BATES. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.

Mrs. BATES. I wish I could remember more about them but--uh--I think my legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when you're not suppose to remember things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia and the terrible working conditions.

They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing].

Mr. JENNER. They are?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final edition.

Mr. JENNER. I see. But the text of the story is the same?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the time?

Mrs. BATES. Well, after I--uh--after he left, a short time afterward, Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press.

Mr. JENNER. That's the Fort Worth Press?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, "By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be able to help him."

So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. And they tried to contact him but couldn't.

Mr. JENNER. Could not contact----

Mrs. BATES. Lee.

I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he was real worried about it, because he needed one.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help him find a job.

Mr. JENNER. And they were unable to contact him?

Mrs. BATES. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home several times--oh, I think, two or three times, she said--one of the reporters did.

Mr. JENNER. And when was this?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work.

Mr. JENNER. I see. In the summer of 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; he was still out--I guess he was still out there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until Caroline called me.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh; that day?

Mrs. BATES. That night of the assassination.

And wondered, she said--I was out at my club--and she said, "Have you seen any television or listened to any radios?"

And I said, "No."

She said, "Well, have you got a television there?"

And I said, "Yes."

She said, "Turn it on--and then call me back."

So, I did. And there he was.

Mr. JENNER. And the person you saw on television--this would be the night of the assassination?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee Oswald----

Mrs. BATES. Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of June?

Mrs. BATES. 1962.

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you were firm in your recognition of that person?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone would--you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew that's who it was.

That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was perusing again].

Mr. JENNER. These first two pages?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and talked with you?

Mrs. BATES. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see--Thanksgiving was the following week?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?"

I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do."

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all Wednesday afternoon and talked. So--it wasn't any spur of the moment thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that.

Mrs. BATES. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because of all the things that happened since.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the interim.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time forward--that is, the 20th of June, 1962?

Mrs. BATES. I saw him on the street twice after that.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. He didn't see me.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into this--uh--variety store--Green's, or Grant's, I think it is.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him?

Mrs. BATES. No; he was by himself.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Marina?

Mrs. BATES. No; his mother called me.

Mr. JENNER. When--after the assassination?

Mrs. BATES. The day the story broke.

Mr. JENNER. This story that you've shown me?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late." She said, "That is not the property--that is my property."

Mr. JENNER. What is her property?

Mrs. BATES. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her." She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late."

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever come out to see you?

Mrs. BATES. No.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the only conversation you ever had with her?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah--uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. BATES. I was.

Mr. JENNER. As you look at those documents--would you leaf through all the pages I have mentioned?

Mrs. BATES. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard--oh! wait a minute! wait a minute!

Mr. JENNER. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that material?

Mrs. BATES. Right here.

Mr. JENNER. As things that he had in his notes.

Mrs. BATES. (Continuing to peruse notes) Metropole--uh-huh--Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. You are now referring to page 149?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. You see something that is familiar to you?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the punched, ring book paper?

Mrs. BATES. I believe some of them were.

Mr. JENNER. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled left-hand margin?

Mrs. BATES. Every kind of paper imaginable.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of that character?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; in pencil and pen.

Mr. JENNER. In pencil and in pen?

Mrs. BATES. His pen would run out and he would start in on pencil.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, when you transcribed his notes for 3 days?

Mrs. BATES. It looks very much--as I remember it--it looks very much like it.

[The witness points to a particular page.]

Mr. JENNER. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--very definitely.

Mr. JENNER. What about it awakens your recollection?

Mrs. BATES. Well, as I remember, that's the way his notes started out.

Mr. JENNER. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October 16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin and Metropole Hotel"?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That is as I remember--as I can remember--and that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they started out--just like a story.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. A diary.

Mr. JENNER. Did he take his notes with him, too, when he----

Mrs. BATES. Took everything. He wouldn't allow me to keep anything.

Mr. JENNER. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize any other of the story type of thing?

Mrs. BATES. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian--on Russia--his trip to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes deal with his subsequent residence in the United States?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And in New Orleans?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah; which I knew nothing about.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it occurred afterward, in any event.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I didn't hear of him afterwards.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press--front page story in The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50, final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.

Mrs. BATES. You may have it.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. And that is the story----

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff writer, as you have described?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Is that story accurate as you related it to her?

Mrs. BATES. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend or correct?

Mrs. BATES. No, sir. It was read to me before it was ever printed twice.

Mr. JENNER. It is Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.

Mrs. BATES. And we did it very carefully to make it all--so we wouldn't get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI on December 2, 1963?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; let's see, that was a Saturday, wasn't it--December 2?

Mr. JENNER. [Referring to calendar] December 2 was a Monday.

Mrs. BATES. Well, no; they came to my home on Saturday after the story broke.

Mr. JENNER. Did they interview you twice?

Mrs. BATES. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They just--uh--I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over to them.

Mr. JENNER. I see. Could it have been Saturday, the 30th of November?

Mrs. BATES. It was the following Saturday after the story broke. Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you that the story was accurate----

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir; gave him a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. In every detail, with one exception--which was that Lee Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department.

Mrs. BATES. Well, that is not in the story.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mrs. BATES. That was what--the radio and television was trying to put words in my mouth at that time. And--uh--I don't know how many times I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten a visa that I thought--it was just a thought--that maybe he was going over under the auspices of the State Department--as a student or something.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. From that, they got that he was a secret agent for the----

If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the weekend. I had to get them to retract--according to the Associated Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to my house over the weekend and interviewed me--and I was on my way to Washington Monday!

Mr. JENNER. You mean, this past weekend?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; The Star Telegram called me Monday----

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

And they said, "Well, somebody has just jumped the gun."

And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true. And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people."

Mr. JENNER. I think some one of the young men around here told me that--but I put no stock in it, so----

Mrs. BATES. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well, they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the press.

Mr. JENNER. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit it one out of three times.

Mrs. BATES. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said that I had gotten the letter--that they understood I had gotten the letter and I would be called as a witness--and that was it.

I told them--I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's not true--and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were putting all kinds of words in my mouth.

Mr. JENNER. They hadn't talked to you at all?

Mrs. BATES. Who?

Mr. JENNER. The newspaper people over this weekend?

Mrs. BATES. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill with bursitis.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you were?

Mrs. BATES. I've got it right now. It's about to drive me crazy.

Mr. JENNER. That's pretty bad stuff.

Mrs. BATES. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean, that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the morning--"Mrs. Bates, can't you add something?"--"Can't you remember something else?"--"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth."

Mr. JENNER. That's right.

Mrs. BATES. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"--you can't elaborate on the truth.

Mr. JENNER. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked you--insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned?

Mrs. BATES. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have to keep from giving impressions I've got now.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have to----

Mrs. BATES. I mean, disassociate the past and the present. I've got to.

Mr. JENNER. That's right.

Mrs. BATES. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I have read--since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or things like that. I don't believe in it.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I have failed to bring out--that's pertinent here?

Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit talking when she was changing the tape--except for a cigarette, or something like that.

I wish I could help you more.

Mr. JENNER. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this great mystery.

Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your deposition when it's been transcribed.

Mrs. BATES. May I have a copy?

Mr. JENNER. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have the right to waive these privileges if you see fit.

If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think, be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you will call in, if I'm not in--we expect to be here--but if I'm not in, talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders.

Mrs. BATES. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get a'hold of Agent Howard?

Mr. JENNER. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our possession.

Mrs. BATES. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the one that brought me over and he's waiting for me.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, he is?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Well, when you are driving back with Agent Howard----

Mrs. BATES. I'll tell him.

Mr. JENNER. You tell Agent Howard to let you know when it is ready.

Mrs. BATES. Okay. Because I don't have a car.

Mr. JENNER. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I probably won't think about it.

Mrs. BATES. Would there be a possibility of having a copy of it?

Mr. JENNER. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your privilege.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom--he's a very prominent lawyer over there--and he said he wanted a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-uh. Well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of it.

Mr. JENNER. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy to anybody--other than yourself.

Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; of my deposition, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement with the reporter.

Mrs. BATES. I see what you mean.

Mr. JENNER. But, you may not do so for somebody else.

Mrs. BATES. Oh, no; but I mean I want it for my files up at the office.

Mr. JENNER. And thank you for your time and your cooperation.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I figured it might help.

TESTIMONY OF MAX E. CLARK

The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I will place you under oath.

(Complying.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with that letter, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. CLARK. Max E. Clark.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are an attorney?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. A member of the Bar of Texas?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Any other State?

Mr. CLARK. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and American Bar Association.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain your offices in Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your home address?

Mr. CLARK. 4312 Selkirk Drive West.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a member of the bar?

Mr. CLARK. Since 1939--now I have to stop and think----

Mr. LIEBELER. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a native-born American, Mr. Clark?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Texas?

Mr. CLARK. No, I was born in Indiana.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas, approximately?

Mr. CLARK. In 1927.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state for us briefly your educational background?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth, graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her parents were born in Russia, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met him, approximately when?

Mr. CLARK. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I was at my office and we would either call--or we would call him that weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt.

Mr. LIEBELER. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter?

Mr. CLARK. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living. If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that. When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact with--there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth that they communicate quite freely back and forth--stated that they had met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this?

Mr. CLARK. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did not see him and then we had no further contact with them or even knew about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it was not going very well, their marriage, and so----

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena Hall; do you remember?

Mr. CLARK. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know. I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were they in the car at all?

Mr. CLARK. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given sedatives and--Elena Hall--and I don't know whether she knew any more about it. I did not see her that night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina see Elena Hall that night?

Mr. CLARK. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during--from that period while Elena was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her to the grocery or take her food.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas Employment Commission----

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at the Fort Worth Public Library?

Mr. CLARK. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, why, my wife--we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them before we did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife?

Mr. CLARK. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth?

Mr. CLARK. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the Gregorys first, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia. I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you have knowledge of those things?

Mr. CLARK. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that time, apparently there was--she bought her some groceries and I do recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it would exceed $10 or $15.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did provide to Marina were these things you described?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she gave Marina any money?

Mr. CLARK. I am sure she did not give her any cash; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on with your story now, please?

Mr. CLARK. So, upon--when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there, oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's home while Elena was in the hospital?

Mr. CLARK. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the impression that there had been marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife thought that?

Mr. CLARK. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a conversation with Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. CLARK. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, "You know who I am?" when he would meet someone for the first time, so he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines and he would go to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in the Marines?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian language while in the Marines?

Mr. CLARK. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite awhile before he left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or whether this was private effort?

Mr. CLARK. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the Marines that he went--I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as a Russian citizen?

Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little better apartment than the normal working person there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he was sent to work?

Mr. CLARK. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to the Soviet Union?

Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet metal worker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. CLARK. I asked him what it was like working there and he said the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps. He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city--I said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could live and they assigned you an apartment and it might take 5 years to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place of employment down to the Black Sea.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the Soviet Union?

Mr. CLARK. He said he was limited because he did not have the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?

Mr. CLARK. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he received any income from any source other than his job?

Mr. CLARK. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother to get money to come back to the States.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention receiving money from the Red Cross?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning to the United States?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the child but by putting in his application to return to the United States somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never returned to work after the birth of the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high cost of transportation?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said, "Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down there." He was quite unhappy about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath while most of the other apartments had to share the bath?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those apartments was his had a wash basin and private stove in there, small apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to use the communal kitchen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after the baby was born?

Mr. CLARK. That's what he indicated to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which they were not required to work but other than that they worked the whole time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the child when they went back to work?

Mr. CLARK. He said they take it to special places that elderly women--they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he think this was a good thing or bad thing?

Mr. CLARK. Well, he didn't seem quite--he just took it as a matter of course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to make on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr. Madland. Do you remember that?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This report indicates that you told them at that time that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a government nursery.

Mr. CLARK. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5 months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work they were placed in a nursery.

Mr. LIEBELER. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition with the particular case of the Oswalds.

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he met and subsequently married his wife, Marina?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a short time, they got married.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing permission to marry her?

Mr. CLARK. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it couldn't be any worse."

Mr. LIEBELER. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse than the Soviet Union?

Mr. CLARK. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite happy to get out of there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was--seemed to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was to leave so he made application to leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make his mark" or is that just an expression of yours?

Mr. CLARK. That is my expression but my general impression was he wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what particular circumstances he was in.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what you just spoke of?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he called attention to that fact to make himself stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to peoples' attention?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to think it made him somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other examples of behavior on Oswald's part?

Mr. CLARK. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't--he was completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he read very much and how much he had read.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was interested in sports and he wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or Marxist organizations?

Mr. CLARK. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and why he decided to come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining permission to return to the United States?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at the right time or hadn't approached the right person."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or Marina any difficulty about them returning?

Mr. CLARK. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back", he said "They couldn't keep me out."

Mr. LIEBELER. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him a citizen?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused to permit him to return?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department or Embassy or Moscow?

Mr. CLARK. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an arrogant-talking person.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention specifically any government official, President Kennedy, Governor Connally?

Mr. CLARK. No one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his service in the Marine Corps?

Mr. CLARK. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine Corps. He didn't like any part of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps?

Mr. CLARK. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of places to live and assignment of apartments."

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about it at that time?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. CLARK. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald; whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have anything to do with him?

Mr. CLARK. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her, she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her. I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is watching his movements or I would be very much surprised."

Mr. LIEBELER. If they didn't----

Mr. CLARK. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly where he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would keep a record."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss Oswald with anybody in the FBI?

Mr. CLARK. Not before this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any official connection with the FBI?

Mr. CLARK. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became acquainted with Earl Haley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of this sort with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know him quite well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said?

Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that Oswald had done it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters?

Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. I know I got the last one.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with you, of course?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters and may want to make them part of this record.

Mr. CLARK. Sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not think Oswald was the man who did it?

Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an explorer or pirate or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald a real lashing about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was?

Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of January, sometime in the spring of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or 27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid another hand on her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party?

Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I think it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?

Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime.

Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to Pennsylvania or New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe.

Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month or maybe more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that?

Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him shortly before he left for Haiti.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in connection with the Walker attempt at that time?

Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only comment we had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty to the United States?

Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was just a "patsy" in the thing?

Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes without even thinking; most of the time he does that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to whether he was mentally unstable or not?

Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in the world was out of step but himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was a completely shiftless individual.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby?

Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have committed?

Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to call attention to himself?

Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what you said, go right ahead.

Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned with what life was like in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?

Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have registered on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in firearms to you at that time?

Mr. CLARK. Not at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time?

Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might have been a Russian agent?

Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to be concerned about it because they felt the American government was keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as much as the ones that got out recently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in getting out of Russia, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?

Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know there's several others of the younger group that came over.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in Blossom, Tex.

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't recall their name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by the FBI?

Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it?

Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off political issues or anything about the United States.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE

The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on Oswald's motive.

I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.

Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time?

Mr. BOUHE. I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.

Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the Commission?

Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.

Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?

Mr. BOUHE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?

Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time?

Mr. BOUHE. For 9-1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a baptismal certificate showing February 11.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United States.

Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.

It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.

The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking English, was an office boy.

When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did that lead to your coming to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at night, and it was cold, and got out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen?

Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did there, which is not much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the English governess, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us Latin and Greek.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas?

(Mr. Jenner entered the room.)

Mr. LIEBELER (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner.

Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us about that?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on.

So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.

In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire.

By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.

It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.

So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian language was welcome.

And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really.

The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.

Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the English language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient?

Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn English, because I have the great reliance on that.

Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn English? All I want to do is get a job."

Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples?

Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. Mamantov?

Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.

Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. It was that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language.

Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks.

Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the assassination?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the book.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald with his book?

Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. BOUHE. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.

This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells.

Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I was interested in.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps?

Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad and moved to Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. Petersburg to Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union?

Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.

Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against society.

Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He doesn't like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football?

Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.

Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.

But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 rubles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"

Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent.

I said, "What did you get as rent?"

"Well, it was an old factory building."

I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters?

Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots?

Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost?

Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?

Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter Gregory?

Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?"

And that figure I remember distinctly.

In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, "90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"

No answer.

But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I couldn't cross-examine.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For instance, he had a portable radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone and records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?

Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction.

But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. And what she was earning, I do not know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting club in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."

And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".

Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?

Mr. BOUHE. There?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union.

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips?

Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?

Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no reason to suspect his lying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the Soviet Government?

Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the United States."

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.

And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Only after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?

Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet Union while he was there?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or three different occasions from Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy in Moscow at some period of time to return.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression?

Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in the Soviet Union, approximately?

Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or from factory workers.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement.

Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her education?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good command of the language?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.

And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language.

And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas man--perhaps Bryn Mawr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.

And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. What is in her soul, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about that.

Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments or amplified them after the event of the assassination.

But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.

It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.

Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have to do whatever she could to get out.

Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is of the old school, but I don't know.

And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which presented itself in Minsk.

So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal was or is, I cannot guess even now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed from her?

Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her.

Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination occurred?

Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I do not volunteer as an expert.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's confidence about those matters?

Mr. BOUHE. Not I.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford?

Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent?

Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls.

Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna Meller and Anna Ray.

Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house.

Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's party?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"

Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say but "come over."

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house?

Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a week?

Mr. BOUHE. About a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford?

Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband, Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring her over for a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it is November?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs. Ford.

Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October 7, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that conversation?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs. Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended, wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another job existed.

The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in Fort Worth?

Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian lady--said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job."

For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7. That would be my guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess. And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment Commission, which he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there?

Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there--not I, because I didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name?

Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs. Cunningham?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you?

Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph. D., a very kind man--he said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job in Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a $1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"--those were my very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable any place."

And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you.

Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement I would ask anybody.

And for 2 or 3--or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. Bye."

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where----

Mr. BOUHE. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't know what that means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. BOUHE. YMCA on Ervay Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long he lived there?

Mr. BOUHE. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, but that I do know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the YMCA?

Mr. BOUHE. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, "Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the Carlton boarding house?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he had not lived there?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a bum steer.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately lived.

Mr. LIEBELER. He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth?

Mr. BOUHE. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the Oswald apartment at Elsbeth Street?

Mr. BOUHE. I never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit their apartment at No. 215 Neely Street?

Mr. BOUHE. Never even knew where it was. Never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28, 1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the Ford party.

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1 to December 28?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during that period of time, however?

Mr. BOUHE. Once or twice.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of 1962, would it not?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; that is right. That is right.

Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not, that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It must have been November because your recollection is she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes. That is a slip of the tongue.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during the month of November 1962?

Mr. BOUHE. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't around at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina Oswald.

Mr. BOUHE. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such.

She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size you would not think she would.

And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald, coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to America."

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great actress.

Mr. BOUHE. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. Maybe she is a superagent of some organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not. Never entered into my head.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it has entered into your head since the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, after that, you think of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that?

Mr. BOUHE. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is almost incredible.

American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I think, both of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Asked who?

Mr. BOUHE. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual that they let you out. How did you do it?"

It was a completely innocent question at that time.

"Well, we just went to the right office."

And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to that effect in Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time prior to the assassination.

Mr. BOUHE. The majority of our Russian background colony having suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10 and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes from Russia.

Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the man came to the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some investigation.

Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United States, whether it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States. That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money.

At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it was mentioned.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember specifically who mentioned it?

Mr. BOUHE. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't. And I am not hiding anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were there, were they not?

Mr. BOUHE. Right; uninvited.

Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife?

Mr. BOUHE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent?

Mr. BOUHE. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of that conversation.

At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her.

Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before.

Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. "Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an agent of the U.S.S.R.?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is."

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that man?

Mr. BOUHE. Lev Aronson, chief first cello, Dallas Symphony Orchestra.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought Oswald was an idiot?

Mr. BOUHE. I am not a buddy-buddy of his.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't hear why Aronson thought Oswald was an idiot?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at that party?

Mr. BOUHE. Not with Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day after?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a long time and I am almost sure I must have been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during that period of time, was there not?

Mr. BOUHE. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about Oswald being a Russian agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time during the period December 28 for the next few days?

Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned, well, whether others talked, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear anybody talking about it?

Mr. BOUHE. Not to my hearing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that Oswald was essentially a mental case?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember using those words at any time during the period December 28 and the few days following that day?

Mr. BOUHE. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some school and study to attempt to improve his ability?

Mr. BOUHE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?

Mr. BOUHE. That was most probably the first week of October when he moved here, October 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said to you in response?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes. "What kind of school do they have?"

And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to make lampshades."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever went to Crozier Tech?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have gone to, and I said we have only one.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Crozier Tech?

Mr. BOUHE. That is called Dallas Evening Public School.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment?

Mr. BOUHE. American or Russian?

Mr. LIEBELER. Of any nature.

Mr. BOUHE. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do not know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you was "Agitator" one of them?

Mr. BOUHE. Never saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about "Crocodile"?

Mr. BOUHE. Unfortunately; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any others?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I think it is called "O-g-o-n-e-k." Means, "little fire."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you saw in Oswald's possession?

Mr. BOUHE. Something about the sports, because you always could see a Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a periodical called "The Worker"?

Mr. BOUHE. Never saw a copy in the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about "The Militant"?

Mr. BOUHE. Never saw any such article, magazine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on political subjects in Oswald's home?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mr. BOUHE. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these books were in his apartment?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you about them?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics with Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. American politics?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government?

Mr. BOUHE. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man. I did not touch any of these subjects.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or three times that you saw him?

Mr. BOUHE. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the economic system of the U.S.S.R.?

Mr. BOUHE. I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how did you know he was stuck on it?

Mr. BOUHE. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, "Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether it is free rent or free medical care.

For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. Not during the time I knew him; positively not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought Russia was so good, why didn't he go back?

Mr. BOUHE. No; I didn't, because I think he began to hate me very early.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have enough to live nicely and help others if I wish.

The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal and if I know around the corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good.

So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the floor and all that.

I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them."

Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines, no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia. He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job and they said what can you do--nothing. Where did you work last--Minsk. Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see it.

When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I did exactly that, as I saw it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate your efforts?

Mr. BOUHE. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to Marina and such--I even brought two shirts for him--not new, used, and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his displeasure over me.

He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them 3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any."

Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy groceries for the Oswalds at any time?

Mr. BOUHE. Once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how much?

Mr. BOUHE. Ten dollars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the Oswalds?

Mr. BOUHE. $75. You can make a list, if you wish, because I want to tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. BOUHE. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday.

I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he didn't give me any change. I remember that.

Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid. I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings, we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her measure moccasins without stockings.

I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford to go to the regular dentist.

And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if De Mohrenschildt spent any money on Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. I have no idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about any others, as far as you know?

Mr. BOUHE. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in clothes, used, not new, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else gave such things to the Oswalds?

Mr. BOUHE. Through me, I collected--Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs. Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to Dallas, did it?

Mr. BOUHE. The clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the dentist, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say the dental work was done after Oswald moved to Dallas?

Mr. BOUHE. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until November 2d?

Mr. BOUHE. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came, I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, and here those student guys just love to pull.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for them?

Mr. BOUHE. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed there in October?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other financial contribution that might have been made to the Oswalds during this period?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, let's say $20. I would say that is all, $75, more or less.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his service in the Marine Corps?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. BOUHE. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of application blanks some place and you have to say about your military service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would say: "Put down honorable."

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the entire extent of your discussion?

Mr. BOUHE. Right. He would freeze up like a clam.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss anything about Cuba with you?

Mr. BOUHE. Never heard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his possession?

Mr. BOUHE. Do not recall having seen anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he get along with the Russian people?

Mr. BOUHE. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful. Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him. I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something like that."

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Marina said?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was her reaction to him when she met him in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. I remember that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that?

Mr. BOUHE. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was not a very talkative person.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have the impression that as a general manner he was not a popular person when he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with whom he would be friendly. I could not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind?

Mr. BOUHE. He changed so much, from an American, to Russia, and back.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never seemed to be satisfied with anything?

Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. Besides, not satisfied with any place. That is the point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S. Government for delaying his return to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. In a casual remark, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get on the horse."

Mr. LIEBELER. The United States?

Mr. BOUHE. "Damn them, I don't know why it took them so long."

Mr. LIEBELER. That is all he said?

Mr. BOUHE. All I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual in the Government?

Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any hostility against anybody in the Government, which I didn't hear myself, I would say Governor Connally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. BOUHE. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where, in the paper here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that he wrote a letter to Governor Connally?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that only after reading it in the paper?

Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he had any hostility toward any individual in the Government?

Mr. BOUHE. You mean as of the end of December, 1962?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the period "as soon as possible."

Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I would say that it looks like a threat.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure with Governor Connally?

Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely not.

Mr. LIEBELER. If he had any prior to the assassination?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand English when you first met her?

Mr. BOUHE. She said no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that she could understand English?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God, you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or something like that.

"Oh, yes. I know I love you. Come kiss me quick, or something like that."

But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian----

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Gregory?

Mr. BOUHE. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few words in English."

"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it did not appear to you that she understood English?

Mr. BOUHE. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I have talked with you.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that you tried to teach her English?

Mr. BOUHE. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in the family there sometime.

And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English."

"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to him. This is positively so."

Well, I said, "Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?"

"Well," she said, "let's try".

Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that system was to be short-lived.

Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the American society.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the English language?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on Wednesday. This is a tropical climate."

Mr. LIEBELER. You sent those to Marina and asked her to study them?

Mr. BOUHE. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were living in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's. I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20.

Mr. LIEBELER. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, is that right?

Mr. BOUHE. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment, she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see what it should have been.

And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said, "Please take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live in Fort Worth.'"

Mr. LIEBELER. He had those lessons that you had sent to Marina?

Mr. BOUHE. I don't know what he had. All I could hear was my own words, because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostat of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress.

Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be a good student of English; is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each. She made a good headway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever come to your house to study Russian?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to study English?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. In my previous question I meant English, to study at your house?

Mr. BOUHE. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only time they were in your house?

Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the diaper----

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina was never in your house in the absence of Lee Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else being there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" "Why I gave you $2 last week; $2 you got."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have given to Marina?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not see.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do not know about that?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably I showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way?

Mr. BOUHE. I don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard it from anybody else?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear, and I am 60.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect?

Mr. BOUHE. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer, "Well, Lee is jealous of you."

Mr. LIEBELER. She said that about you?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because I bought groceries.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the end of the fourth lesson?

Mr. BOUHE. Sir, I wish I knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the answer to that question?

Mr. BOUHE. Just a moment. I do not know the answer to that question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the assassination of the President?

Mr. BOUHE. You can say that again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why were you surprised?

Mr. BOUHE. Because I happened to know the guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was capable of doing such a thing?

Mr. BOUHE. Never up to that moment. Did not enter my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that respect?

Mr. BOUHE. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that he was dangerous in any respect?

Mr. BOUHE. He liked to get into a fight, I heard and get beaten up, I heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes; he is a tough guy but----

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as assassinating the President or shooting somebody, that's never occurred to you?

Mr. BOUHE. Never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mr. BOUHE. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I suspect yes--no, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you testified before that you knew George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was a friend of Oswald's; was he not?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph. D., comes from an excellent family back in the old country, married the right people, knows everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted.

When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble."

By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of that sort of stuff.

George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg, then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people."

"All right, George, you carry the ball."

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little hoopla circus.

So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that period, that is almost an exaggeration.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised any particular influence over Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday, or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care--De Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald would do that?

Mr. BOUHE. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't even say it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man, and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs. Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here. I will ask you if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission Exhibits 451, 453-456, WJL.]

First of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the same man?

Mr. BOUHE. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember seeing that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say no. Am I wrong?

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. I have no more questions that I want to ask, do you have anything else that you think we ought to know before we finish?

Let me ask you one more question. Did Oswald drink, as far as you know?

Mr. BOUHE. Drink?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BOUHE. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass, but do not know if it was ginger ale.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a strong drinker?

Mr. BOUHE. Never saw or heard or smelled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our attention that you think would help us in this matter?

Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3 days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at that time.

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that occurs to you now?

Mr. BOUHE. I cannot think of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S. attorney's office and we will make arrangements.

Mr. BOUHE. Is that Mr. Sanders?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BOUHE. I talked incessantly today.

Mr. LIEBELER. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while the reporter was writing?

Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and will think of something, so don't hold it against me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You will think of something that we have not discussed?

Mr. BOUHE. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia, and I--by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately appear in the paper?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; not as far as we know. You don't want any publicity?

Mr. BOUHE. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. BOUHE. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you can see the----

Mr. LIEBELER. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate.

TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER

The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of those documents with that letter?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. MELLER. Anna N. Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. MELLER. 5930-1/2 LaVista Drive, Dallas 6.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mrs. MELLER. I was born in Russia in 1917.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what town in Russia were you born?

Mrs. MELLER. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling].

Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Russia is that in?

Mrs. MELLER. It's first town in Russia, town after Ukraine.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be in southern Russia then?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts Russia after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ukraine?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, after Ukraine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you now an American citizen?

Mrs. MELLER. I am an American citizen since 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to the United States?

Mrs. MELLER. As a refugee.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mrs. MELLER. In January 11, 1952.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Russia?

Mrs. MELLER. I left Russia around 1943.

Mr. LIEBELER. In 1943?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You left Russia at the time the German Army retreated?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, the corps of Germans.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to Germany?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Russia did you go to Germany?

Mrs. MELLER. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then from Germany to United States.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Meller with you at that time?

Mrs. MELLER. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met, 1946, I met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Off record comment.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free will and go to Germany?

Mrs. MELLER. No; I was taken by the Germans from Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with the retreat of the German Army?

Mrs. MELLER. Part of the retreat.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did the Germans take you from Russia; do you know?

Mrs. MELLER. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger. That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct?

Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English, Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. MELLER. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the United States?

Mrs. MELLER. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but never heard Dallas, and we----

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you came to Dallas?

Mrs. MELLER. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years here and love it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you work now, Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, I work 11 years for Dallas Power & Light Co. as draftsman.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a draftsman?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have training in draftsmanship work?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my dentistry examination but I get my diploma.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union before you left?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I got my document but without final examination of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education, it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying. When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States. Since that time I love it and my job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your husband work also?

Mrs. MELLER. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11 years or 12. I will say 12 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your husband also from Russia originally?

Mrs. MELLER. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical education.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. MELLER. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory--I, my husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to make something--we don't have a house here. We don't have car here. We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place. When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr. Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at the time?

Mrs. MELLER. I think it was wife from Peter Gregory, Mr. Gregory, his son----

Mr. LIEBELER. Paul Gregory?

Mrs. MELLER. Paul Gregory, myself, and George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening?

Mrs. MELLER. It was a dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the evening?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at which you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. MELLER. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old, baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and if you had a job--Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes, really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't remember exactly or he was looking for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you carry on the conversation in English or in Russian?

Mrs. MELLER. In Russian more.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was not able to speak English?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word; however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was his Russian grammatically correct?

Mrs. MELLER. Pretty correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he learned Russian?

Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took English in school and studied very much at home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Russian you mean.

Mrs. MELLER. Russian in school and studied at home very much with himself as Marina said later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that his command of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had spent in Russia?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; absolutely better than I would expect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in Russia to learn Russian?

Mrs. MELLER. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something, he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said your first impression just was he appeared mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you came to that conclusion?

Mrs. MELLER. Later on, when I saw him--I saw him two times or three in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a single word.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he did not want her to learn English?

Mrs. MELLER. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did you next see Oswald?

Mrs. MELLER. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought--always for Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald?

Mrs. MELLER. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time that you saw him?

Mrs. MELLER. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her house. No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door and hit my head here" and it was very blue.

Mr. LIEBELER. Around her eye?

Mrs. MELLER. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not very--didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went; it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at Peter Gregory's?

Mrs. MELLER. At Gregory's and then one time at home.

Mr. LIEBELER. At your home?

Mrs. MELLER. No; at their home where they lived, Marina and Oswald on Mercedes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth; and that is the only place you ever saw him?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George Bouhe. We were always together--group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and not going one person?

Mrs. MELLER. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina and Oswald somebody raise the question--I tried to remember who but I couldn't--I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know, George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said, I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been in the Soviet Union for a while?

Mrs. MELLER. We could not understand why he stayed there and come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him?

Mrs. MELLER. When somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then, I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was his job in Fort Worth?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was looking for a job in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately, and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends?

Mrs. MELLER. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10 to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three pairs.

Mr. LIEBELER. For Marina?

Mrs. MELLER. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake of woman with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about anything. We never saw he will be really----

Mr. LIEBELER. Responsible?

Mrs. MELLER. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see Lee Harvey buying anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands, baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about $18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you, she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was wondering; baby was first.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries for them?

Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe also bought a bed for the baby?

Mrs. MELLER. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears, couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he go with Mr. Bouhe to get the playpen?

Mrs. MELLER. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much and I could not talk much to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you understand that perhaps he had good reasons?

Mrs. MELLER. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people. He could not talk like--I see first time and anyway, to explain as much as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very--not willing to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the milk for baby--"We don't need anything."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job in Fort Worth?

Mrs. MELLER. No; no idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that the United States had made to him?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was making payments to the American Government?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think it was not much at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing?

Mrs. MELLER. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he--we haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. If you are in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who gave you the $5.00 to give to Marina?

Mrs. MELLER. $5.00--my goodness! If I could remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it from being counted twice.

Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, I think it was Mrs. Steed----

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you spell that?

Mrs. MELLER. Steed [spelling], from oilman, wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina at any time that you knew them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job Oswald had while he was in Russia?

Mrs. MELLER. Oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but, something--how to explain--something that you have with machinery. I mean something to fix like hard--just like hardware store, something with those things. I think it was a dirty job. Not exactly locks but some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, I think is kind of work he did but I am very sorry I never was listening real good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid at the job?

Mrs. MELLER. I don't recall; I just did not pay much attention. I know he was having a pretty good room there.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mrs. MELLER. That he was having good room and something--maybe I am not right, sir, I am afraid to say, like $80 month.

Mr. LIEBELER. Eighty rubles?

Mrs. MELLER. Eighty rubles a month.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say or indicate he received help from the Red Cross or any other phase of the Embassy?

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know any money he ever received in Russia is from his job, is that correct?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; and I am not clear here because I may have heard something and never paid much attention.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used to go on in Russia?

Mrs. MELLER. Something he said one time that he went with some Russian boys, probably young people, hunting one time, I think he mentioned and it was something like duckhunting, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, he said that he only went on one hunting trip?

Mrs. MELLER. I mean I heard him saying one time that, just sort mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere I think as much as I know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you or did Marina tell you about the circumstances under which Marina and Lee met and became married in Russia?

Mrs. MELLER. Just far away rumors like I cannot imagine because I am not clear with that. It is so far away and so unclear I am afraid to let you know but in short, I think Marina said she met him at somewhere at a dancing place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she had lived in Leningrad for awhile?

Mrs. MELLER. I think she was born there and lived some time and then was in Minsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved from Leningrad to Minsk?

Mrs. MELLER. No; never asked much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the United States?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning to the United States, that you remember?

Mrs. MELLER. No; I will not say; it was mentioned Embassy and that Embassy even decided to help with the money. That was all I think I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any dislike toward the State Department or the Embassy because they delayed his return to the United States?

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express any hostility toward the U.S. Government, that you can remember?

Mrs. MELLER. I will not say. I just do not recall. He never said too much is what I say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak of President Kennedy?

Mrs. MELLER. No, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent?

Mrs. MELLER. Not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in ways. He was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. You could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. He will always say something against--some way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the impression as to whether Oswald was well liked when he was in Russia or was he unpopular when he was in Russia, do you know?

Mrs. MELLER. My personal opinion, this person could never be friendly with anybody, very friendly, I mean. He was such a person that you never can come near even if you want to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to why she married Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MELLER. That's quite a question--why she married Lee Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MELLER. I don't remember what she said but I remember one sentence which is even caught in my head that she said. She wished all her life to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's tired living not like a human living. She wanted to have piece of her personal life and piece of her room just to her own. I remember her expressing that very, very deeply.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call me and say that her husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the filling station and said the man--she did not have a penny of money, and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 6 weeks, maybe month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" She said "In Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very much space." I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said "Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or 10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no coat, no money, nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did she have bruises?

Mrs. MELLER. She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you can see she was shaking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she appear to be bruised?

Mrs. MELLER. I will not say exactly but she was out of herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be upset?

Mrs. MELLER. Nervous, upset and looked like--she did not cry exactly and at me now but looks like she cried--her eyes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing about?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not remember asking really for what or something. I did not ask for arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. I do not think I went into detail.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Marina stay with you?

Mrs. MELLER. Marina stay, I think 1 week, 5 days at my home, something like Monday until Friday and Friday she went to another family by the name of Mr. Ford, Mr. and Mrs. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you any time during that week that she stayed with you what she and Oswald had been arguing about and what their difficulties were?

Mrs. MELLER. No, no; she did not say much. She mention that her husband could not find proper jobs. They don't want to take him or he could not find; she did not know herself very much. You can see without speaking word of English I do not know what he could come home and tell her; I cannot imagine. She said Lee could not find job and they are in trouble and she did not say much. By the way, she was so skinny to this time and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not feel good. She had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her I decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take her to the doctor?

Mrs. MELLER. So, I took her during this week she stay with me. I took her to the G-y-n by the name Doctor Paul Wolff.

Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f [spelling]?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, W-o-l-f-f [spelling].

Mr. LIEBELER. W-o-l-f-f [spelling].

Mrs. MELLER. He give her examination and said in my presence, said she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least 5 pounds immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. She had bad appetite.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you how long she had been living in Dallas?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not remember, sir, exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her saying anything about living in the home of Elena Hall?

Mrs. MELLER. Elena Hall; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that?

Mrs. MELLER. That Mrs. Hall was very good to her and she stayed there probably about 3 weeks if not more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in Mrs. Hall's home?

Mrs. MELLER. Can you repeat that question?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had left Mrs. Hall's home? In other words, I want to know how long she had been living in Dallas with Oswald.

Mrs. MELLER. No; I do not recall her saying. But may I go back?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MELLER. It is time--thank you for remembering, helping me here. It was the time between Fort Worth and our family and, in other words, I think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in Fort Worth and went to Dallas look for job. During this time Marina stay at Mrs. Hall home for 3 or 4 weeks, if I am correct. It is not easy to remember, really, and during this time we heard, I think he called on telephone to us, Lee Harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him with a job. In all time when we visited them in apartment in Fort Worth and I heard from Marina that her husband may lose job pretty soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just like good soul, I say "You have to come to Dallas which is larger town and maybe he find job." I did not say personally about George Bouhe maybe he find job there, just mention in general. So he called and ask if we can help him and again, as I repeat, for the sake of the poor woman which could not speak word of English and her little baby, I asked my husband. I was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job for Lee Harvey in Dallas. Mr. Meller has a former friend with whom he was working back at Harris but this time it was not Sanger-Harris. It was just A. Harris store and he was working with certain Mrs. Helen Cunningham. Later, Mrs. Cunningham left A. Harris and was working for employment office in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Texas Employment Commission?

Mrs. MELLER. Texas Employment Commission; so, I asked him and I said "Your former friend, Mrs. Helen Cunningham, maybe she can find job for him. Please ask her." He did not want to do it. He said just because I ask him and begged him so much he called Mrs. Helen Cunningham; told her we had a couple which arrived from Russia; she's Russian, and he is American. They are not very long here and he is looking for job but he made a note and he said, "Mrs. Cunningham, be careful and check him because he came from Soviet Union." He said be careful so we would not have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came from Soviet Union and I do not know, however, we heard somebody mention he was checked and Mrs. Cunningham said, "Don't worry, Mr. Meller; we will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. He came one time during this period without Marina for half hour to my house. I give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for jobs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at that time where he had been looking for jobs?

Mrs. MELLER. He will not mention exactly. He was sleeping; I think he was staying YMCA this time, living there and looking for job. He said he has little piece of paper and some notices there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Names on them?

Mrs. MELLER. But he never go into detail, never, never, never. He will mention but you will never find details out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of any other place where Lee Oswald stayed during this period other than the YMCA?

Mrs. MELLER. Never hear and when Marina Oswald later called me at night, I was speechless that she was already in Dallas and we did not know a word and when she mention name where she--they were living, I did not have address. I did not know where they were living, how long they are; they did not say a thing but I took her home, over my house for 5 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's?

Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mrs. Ford's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long she stayed there?

Mrs. MELLER. I believe 1 week, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she then go to the home of----

Mrs. MELLER. Then she went to Mr. and Mrs. Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mrs. MELLER. I tried remember first name--Frank Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it Thomas or Frank?

Mrs. MELLER. Frank Ray; Frank Ray. I think Ray. Now, it was the last time we saw Marina. By the way, I must apologize--coming back when she was living at our home, we did not--she was separated with Lee Harvey to this time. She went out from him. He never call to our home. He never visited. We were working people. We will leave her with food at my home and we will come back in the evening. Nobody call; she never went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if George Bouhe help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive either. It was last time when I saw Marina Oswald and her girl who was about 4 or 6 months, I think. She was not even sitting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Don't you remember seeing Lee and Marina Oswald at a party at the Fords?

Mrs. MELLER. It was after I saw them at my house in December maybe. I do not recall exactly day, 20 or 22 December; it was party at home of Mr. and Mrs. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been the 28th of December, after Christmas?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; it was 28th; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me us about that party, would you, please--who was there; did Oswald come?

Mrs. MELLER. Well, I do not know; it was probably over 20 people there and as I heard, Marina and Oswald were not invited there at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. MELLER. But were invited certain Mr. and Mrs. De----

Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. MELLER. De Mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and I heard from the other people that the De Mohrenschildt's called to Mr. and Mrs. Ford and asked if he can bring with him people, Marina and Oswald. They are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he brought them with.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. MELLER. I did not see exactly walking in but I heard then that he brought them there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald that night at all?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; I saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking, cold, not very talkative. It was a certain Japanese girl, don't know her name, he was all evening with this girl and Marina was left all by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally somebody play with piano, I see her sitting, trying to catch some songs singing and I saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. I did not remember seeing her and him together this evening. He was all time with different girl which we met first time and I do not recognize her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen the Japanese girl since?

Mrs. MELLER. Never saw before or after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how we can get her name?

Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall name or anything, sir; I am very sorry. I would like to help you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald that evening?

Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember anything; my memory--don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald drink at the party at all; did you notice?

Mrs. MELLER. Do not remember seeing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever drank very much?

Mrs. MELLER. Never saw him drink; do not recall. I saw Marina eating pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. Some our friends notice and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to eat.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald leave the party?

Mrs. MELLER. Do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion about Oswald after he left the party? Did you overhear any conversation about him and Marina?

Mrs. MELLER. No; do not recall; I heard something from the people talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name--Lev Aronson, and I heard later that he talked to Lee Oswald and says that he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought that?

Mrs. MELLER. No; I did not talk to him. I heard that conversation, you know, going with a group of people and it was just----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a party at your house some time following the party at the Ford residence?

Mrs. MELLER. After Ford party?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an open house on the day following?

Mrs. MELLER. No; you mean 29 of December?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; approximately.

Mrs. MELLER. Just a second, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or the next day--within a few days following the Ford party?

Mrs. MELLER. I could not recall really, but if I had, I never had Oswalds over to my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Edward Harris from Georgetown, Tex.?

Mrs. MELLER. Charles Edward Harris, yes; I met him one time or two.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he at the Ford party; do you remember?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion as far as you can recall either at the Ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of time where the question of whether Lee Oswald was a Russian agent was discussed?

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with anybody?

Mrs. MELLER. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anybody discuss it?

Mrs. MELLER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mrs. MELLER. Could not say; can be but I cannot say.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do not remember talking about that?

Mrs. MELLER. No; we never talked about that; I remember exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us everything that you can remember about your meetings with Oswald and Marina that you think the Commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else?

Mrs. MELLER. I am thinking and seems to be that's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. MELLER. How long?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MELLER. Oh, I know him about 6 years, probably; met him very seldom and we were never friends, real close, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he friendly with Oswald, do you know?

Mrs. MELLER. Try to help, I think was--try to help as much as we did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not--if I say surprised or was shocked when President Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you. We could not believe at first at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were very surprised when you heard it was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MELLER. We could not believe he will do things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir; three times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three times?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir--oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name but it was three times together.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you once?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the Dallas police force?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas police officers?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what?

Mrs. MELLER. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from somebody that he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told you that?

Mrs. MELLER. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time, 1962?

Mrs. MELLER. No, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right?

Mrs. MELLER. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it happened--when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New Orleans and back to Dallas?

Mrs. MELLER. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It was the last time at Ford's family.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead.

Mrs. MELLER. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I did not forget anything. I do not think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you very much.

Mrs. MELLER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL

The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mrs. HALL. I sure do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. With that letter were included copies of those documents referred to, isn't that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you today about your knowledge of Lee and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at approximately Easter of 1963?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, will you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. HALL. Elena A. Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Mr. John R. Hall, isn't that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort Worth, isn't that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born in Iran? In what town?

Mrs. HALL. Tehran.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mrs. HALL. 1926.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents were originally from Russia, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did they move to Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. 1920 or 1921.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia had they lived prior to that time?

Mrs. HALL. The last in Baku.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they eventually move to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit and went back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they still living in Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. No; both are dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Both are dead?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the United States, if you would.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States.

My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So he wanted--instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to the United States, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1957?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5 years in Russian school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specialize in any special field during your education?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a general education?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you married your husband in New York and subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth----

Mrs. HALL. We were married in Fort Worth and I came here.

Mr. LIEBELER. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were first married in 19----

Mrs. HALL. 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again in November of 1962, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you as little as possible.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you and your husband divorced at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to $75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that, so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was sometime in July, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1962?

Mrs. HALL. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were. They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money. And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in this way I start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her some clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Marina money from time to time?

Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her. George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you money besides Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. HALL. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my employer's wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her first name?

Mrs. HALL. Loraine Patterson.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much money did she give you, do you remember?

Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. It was $10, or $15.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did Bouhe give you?

Mrs. HALL. Twenty dollars.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else give you any money for the Oswalds?

Mrs. HALL. No; I spent myself, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. For them?

Mrs. HALL. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries until they moved to my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth?

Mrs. HALL. My money or just general?

Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether. You said that you thought Bouhe had given you $20?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been $30 or $35?

Mrs. HALL. I spent probably $25 or $30 myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be $50 to $60?

Mrs. HALL. Something like that, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my work. And then after they--I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move.

And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and then you can move?" So that's what they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas looking for a job?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when Marina moved to your house?

Mrs. HALL. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you helped Marina move from the apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the moving?

Mrs. HALL. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas that night, that afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that helped you with the moving?

Mrs. HALL. No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't very much to move?

Mrs. HALL. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first time when George went----

Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?

Mrs. HALL. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very nice about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate what Mr. Bouhe was doing for him?

Mrs. HALL. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw in the kitchen----

Mr. LIEBELER. This was while Marina was living at your house?

Mrs. HALL. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange man, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child except for what Mr. Bouhe brought?

Mrs. HALL. Well, nobody else would do it. She was living in my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support of the family at that time?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer to contribute?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us about how long Marina lived in your house?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of October and I stayed in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they were gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know exactly when they moved out?

Mrs. HALL. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital?

Mrs. HALL. That--not that I know. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Marina?

Mrs. HALL. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about the past.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to Dallas from Fort Worth?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I heard that he lived in YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mrs. HALL. I heard from two friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who particularly told you?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, Mrs. Clark.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Max Clark?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's parents lived in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband?

Mrs. HALL. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them after they moved from my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see her using it?

Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any clothes that Marina made with the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina know how to use the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her sewing, but she said she could.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat her all the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her?

Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was?

Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it wasn't until October or November----

Mrs. HALL. October when she moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a result of her husband beating her, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house, did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't know."

And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And she said, "No; I don't think so."

She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did not have normal sexual relations.

Mrs. HALL. Very seldom. The thing that she told me, "Very seldom."

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me everything that you can remember about that subject that Marina told you.

Mrs. HALL. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only thing she told me.

And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my business, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that Marina said about that subject?

Mrs. HALL. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would--was not very much of a man in that sense?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. That is what she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. They very seldom had sexual relations?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with her any other time?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your house, other than what we have already talked about?

Mrs. HALL. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of everything, hot peppers."

And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some people like them and some don't."

Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a good wife?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48 hours a day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald in front of other people?

Mrs. HALL. Who?

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina making fun of Lee?

Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes; she would do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any specific examples?

Mrs. HALL. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that. Not complete man.

Mr. LIEBELER. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was.

Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other people, or was it a more general thing?

Mrs. HALL. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your opinion?

Mrs. HALL. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear them argue about politics?

Mrs. HALL. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in Russia?"

And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on. And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life in Russia than Marina did?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a common thing for them to argue about?

Mrs. HALL. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions, she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think----

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or magazines that you saw?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the downtown library, Fort Worth Library.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether these books related to particular subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do remember that?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I think. I don't remember any names.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the specific names of any of the books?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Lee Oswald in Russian?

Mrs. HALL. All the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian language?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mrs. HALL. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him, I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her learn English?"

And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English."

And he said, "No, I won't." He never will talk English to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also speak to Marina in Russian?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well could she speak Russian?

Mrs. HALL. Very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was she better able to speak Russian than Lee Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the Russian language?

Mrs. HALL. Very good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it grammatically correct, would you say?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your own command of the Russian language good, would you say?

Mrs. HALL. I thought it was good, and I think it is good, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What language did you learn as a child?

Mrs. HALL. Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that was the first language you spoke, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school. Then I was in Russian school again.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also speak French?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your language in Iran? Iranian?

Mrs. HALL. Armenian. And I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Turkish?

Mrs. HALL. Turkish a little bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to speak to Marina Oswald in English?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach her something.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not speak English at all?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't understand all little things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could understand at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think it was the same thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went on, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all that I know that she has of English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his son, Paul?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of Paul Gregory to you?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Gary Taylor?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house--in fact, I just came out from the hospital accident--this Gary Taylor and his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors.

Mr. LIEBELER. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of his?

Mrs. HALL. I saw him altogether maybe three or four times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to De Mohrenschildt about Lee Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. I don't think I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend of Oswald's?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive an automobile?

Mrs. HALL. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?" And he said, "No".

I said "How come?"

He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school can drive a car. How come you can't?"

And he said, "Well, I just can't."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Oswald learning how to drive a car?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina ever did get her teeth fixed?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she came--and extracted them and came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be done?

Mrs. HALL. No; she did not tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who paid for it?

Mrs. HALL. No. Maybe George Bouhe did, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Marina about religion?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one night, her and the baby, and we--I am a godmother of the child. And, of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of course, didn't like it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything, specifically that he said about that?

Mrs. HALL. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas--I asked her, and she said, of course, he didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Me, Marina, and the child--Lee----

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time? What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection?

Mrs. HALL. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree, no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?" And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree."

Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was Christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a commercialized holiday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband said in response to that remark by Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and--we will come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants, she can go with you."

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to Church?

Mrs. HALL. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't believe in nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever go to church with you and your husband?

Mrs. HALL. No; she never did go. Well, I never did see them after Easter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know after Marina moved out of your house where she went?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess they had an apartment at Elsbeth.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. I think they had an argument and she left one night and she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just hear things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any direct knowledge of that instance?

Mrs. HALL. No; I mean I wasn't in touch with them at all, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as to what the conversation was?

Mrs. HALL. With him?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; with him or with Marina.

Mrs. HALL. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work. And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business for myself."

And he said something about security, I don't have any security here on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he said something about Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how long he was going to have his job?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you don't have to worry about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate that he wanted to go to Russia?

Mrs. HALL. No; well, he never did say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but she never did want to go back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was telling her--she said the life is so bad there. Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed her--she don't have relatives--I think she has only, I mean she don't have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss them but I wouldn't like to go back and live."

Mr. LIEBELER. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to Russia; is that right?

Mrs. HALL. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to just get out from that place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get that impression?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I don't know, because I don't think she ever loved him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that statement on?

Mrs. HALL. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she never did like him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married Oswald to come to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. No; she never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. I think I mentioned to somebody. I don't remember who.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald, or do you?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't know what they thought.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to take a gift to the baby, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the baby and yourself and your husband?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was any--was there any further conversation about Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember?

Mrs. HALL. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn. "Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all day and eat trout. Fish and eat."

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was not working at that time?

Mrs. HALL. No; he wasn't working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he worked in Dallas when he had a job?

Mrs. HALL. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know, printing pictures or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, all the conversation that occurred at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the last time you saw Lee Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to New Orleans, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. I didn't know it. I heard it again that they moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. HALL. I think Mrs. Max Clark.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think I mentioned to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said and what you said?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't think we said anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband told you when you heard that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John, thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia?

Mrs. HALL. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of that conversation?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark, because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We don't see him very much, these Russian people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political conversations with Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to Oswald's political views?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that opinion?

Mrs. HALL. That he is a Communist and nobody can change him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You formed that opinion because of books and literature that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you about him?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I was raised in a very anti-Communist family.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't have much sympathy with Oswald's attitude?

Mrs. HALL. No; none at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she tell you that?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes here in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of these classes?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and Rubenstein or Ruby?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found this apartment in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never mentioned Lee's mother to you at all?

Mrs. HALL. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You later learned from reading the newspaper that Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard Lee Oswald mention his mother at any time?

Mrs. HALL. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look, or if he had something to read, he would read.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read quite a bit?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he did with his time when he wasn't at work?

Mrs. HALL. He was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had other than his work?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at the little pond in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. That is when he didn't have any job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were divorced. That was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. What?

Mrs. HALL. I said, that was all he was coming, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York, that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting along?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this Kleinlerer any more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since then?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone?

Mrs. HALL. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to grocery store, and sometimes she would take her.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery store, or something like that? What was it?

Mrs. HALL. I didn't give her money that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did she get groceries during the time that you were gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do you know?

Mrs. HALL. I don't know. Maybe Mrs. Clark or Mr. Kleinlerer paid for her.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries?

Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. But during the time that you and Marina both were living at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did both you and Marina live in the house together?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess 2 weeks.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were actually together in the house?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact--that time when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked overtime at nights.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you doing work as a dental technician at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had in Russia?

Mrs. HALL. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't remember, really. I never did talk about this with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Marina worked, too?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income when he was in Russia from any source other than his job?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never heard of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on when he was in Russia?

Mrs. HALL. I don't know. He never did mention it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of such a thing?

Mrs. HALL. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their possessions? You said that you moved them?

Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia, where she lived and what kind of things she did?

Mrs. HALL. Not very much, really.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had been born in Leningrad?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved to Minsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they returned to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. Well, because I think he changed his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any specific reasons that made him change his mind?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave Russia and come back to the United States together like they did?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; it was kind of strange.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with the Oswalds?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?

Mrs. HALL. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean, we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know.

Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and all the Russians told probably, it is okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the Soviet Union and come back?

Mrs. HALL. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you read in the paper after the assassination, isn't that right?

Mrs. HALL. No; I think it was in the paper at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When they came back from Russia?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would like to have it.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mrs. HALL. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--I don't know how to express myself--person, that I never thought he could do something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Like shoot the President, you mean?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, did it?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. HALL. Very much so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it then?

Mrs. HALL. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you hear? Lee Oswald--Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?"

I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee Oswald's name."

And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to return from Russia?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk about President Kennedy in any way?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Governor Connally?

Mrs. HALL. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have had with Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any discussion about him?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you should add at this point?

Mrs. HALL. I wish I knew more.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think we pretty well covered everything?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; that is all, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very much, Mrs. Hall.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL

The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.

Have you received copies of those documents?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.

Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any difference?

Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?

Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company?

Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth?

Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. HALL. 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1928?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name?

Mr. HALL. Elena Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall?

Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently divorced?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried?

Mr. HALL. In November of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?

Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.

I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, although Gali wasn't involved in this----

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia?

Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?

Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.

All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?

Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time?

Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I discussed this.

That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we would like to give this guy a job.

It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time being.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job through the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you then meet Oswald?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you?

Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you talked about?

Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.

So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about Russia.

We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing really important was said, that I can think of.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia?

Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and this Taylor fellow.

Do you mind if I smoke?

Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not.

Go right ahead.

Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any detail?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was?

Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.

I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and spent most of the day there.

And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.

The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with Marina, Thursday or Friday.

Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.

Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and ate with them.

And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was really led by Max.

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