Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (08 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"

Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it."

I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart?

Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We didn't even know when he left this job.

Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night?

Mrs. MURRET. Did he read?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books?

Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his life in Russia, and how he felt about it?

Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. We didn't talk about it too much.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all he would say.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian government?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job?

Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on the job.

Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this photographer?

Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that?

Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----"

Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.

Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, "Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment.

She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.

Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.

Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday?

Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.

Mrs. MURRET. Of May?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.

Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that?

Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your garage?

Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car.

Mr. JENNER. Your car?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them.

Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage?

Mrs. MURRET. Luggage?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say?

Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches long, or something like that.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.

Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know?

Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three?

Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting?

Mrs. MURRET. My boys?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.

Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your house?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in there?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out.

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter?

Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes.

Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.

Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime?

Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her car.

Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did you see Mrs. Paine any more?

Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.

Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it must be 50 blocks.

Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their house?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them.

Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life.

Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have grandchildren?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this baby?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee decided that they would go out.

I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.

Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside?

Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks from where I live.

Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half?

Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.

Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there?

Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them.

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I never knew him to drive.

Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, and they went crabbing; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, "Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove them home, and that was it.

When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me.

Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job.

Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you?

Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.

Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that State?

Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.

Mr. JENNER. A what?

Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job.

Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck.

Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found any other job after that here.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee plant?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went home with the spread after all.

Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but I wouldn't remember that now.

Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that?

Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.

Mr. JENNER. To visit your son?

Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time?

Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in between that time.

Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job?

Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you recall?

Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.

Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which I thought was very nice.

Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, "Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and everything."

This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But you can't carry signs like that in the business district."

The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."

Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.

Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe it was.

Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls.

I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and John brought them home.

Mr. JENNER. In his car?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.

I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise?

Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it?

Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few days after Labor Day, I think.

Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," and then they told me who they were.

Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to Texas."

Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane professor.

Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides?

Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew the professor and all that.

Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?

Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. In Moscow?

Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from Lee Oswald and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?

Mrs. MURRET. What's that?

Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile.

Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date.

Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around there?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school.

Mr. JENNER. At Loyola?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.

Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was with us, and also her two children.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?

Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. What school is that?

Mr. JENNER. At Mobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study.

Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son?

Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was.

Mr. JENNER. By letter?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.

Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission?

Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.

Mr. JENNER. But he may write you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. We are allowed to do that.

Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you?

Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it.

Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they mind if you call him?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays or something we can do it.

Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over there?

Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just what happened?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet.

Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce.

Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And her two children?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill.

Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Always?

Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say that for him.

Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang out of doing things like that.

Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your presence?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there.

Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend.

Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night?

Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that your understanding?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."

Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I give talks all the time."

Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time?

Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, "I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.

Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much."

Mr. JENNER. Marina said that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would become a Catholic."

Mr. JENNER. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the baby to be baptized.

Mr. JENNER. Who didn't?

Mrs. MURRET. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church.

Mr. JENNER. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the baby been baptized before that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know which.

Mr. JENNER. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he really meant that the way it sounded.

Mr. JENNER. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of speech?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that Lee was arrogant?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that.

Mr. JENNER. What was there about his mouth that you noticed particularly?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard School indicating--either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700 block, from Canal Boulevard----

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that Lee gave your home address as his address?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which was your address?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his conduct generally, as you recall it?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He never really did talk unless you said something to him.

Mr. JENNER. The same old pattern, would you say?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. You run across that every day.

Mr. JENNER. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the Civil Air Patrol?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about that other than my sister Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange--whatever that is, at the time.

Mr. JENNER. Exchange Place?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on.

Mr. JENNER. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They eat with either hand, don't they?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee write left handed?

Mrs. MURRET. When?

Mr. JENNER. After he reached, say, high school age?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. You never noticed it one way or the other?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?

Mrs. MURRET. I never noticed really.

Mr. JENNER. Your boys are all right handed, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and the Cuban boy?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he called.

Mr. JENNER. Who, Lee?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it.

Mr. JENNER. You heard some of it?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political views?

Mrs. MURRET. Not in my home.

Mr. JENNER. And not with you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family.

Mrs. JENNER. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life.

Mr. JENNER. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back.

Mr. JENNER. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around.

Mr. JENNER. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he say anything either way as to that?

Mrs. MURRET. You mean on that day?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, he couldn't drive?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, Beaumont, Tex., is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that?

Mrs. MURRET. Society of Jesus.

Mr. JENNER. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And a fine student?

Mrs. MURRET. He certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. And he is unmarried?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit.

Mr. JENNER. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. She's unmarried?

Mrs. MURRET. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get married.

Mr. JENNER. She doesn't want to get married?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles didn't see Lee at all.

Mr. JENNER. Charles is your dentist son?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce--they did, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And of course your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. Just that morning when we went there.

Mr. JENNER. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. MURRET. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.

Mr. JENNER. Liked President Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for example?

Mrs. MURRET. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My boys don't smoke.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house around here?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian literature that you know of?

Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but that's about all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack Ruby, or Rubenstein?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. No one else ever discussed him in your presence?

Mrs. MURRET. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether it was or not is something else, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald during his lifetime?

Mrs. MURRET. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.

Mr. JENNER. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not at all.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it.

Mr. JENNER. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition then?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret.

TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET

The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress number 137.

I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be 3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record?

Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Miss MURRET. 757 French.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret?

Miss MURRET. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years in St. Louis.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background?

Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh High School.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University----

Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned?

Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.

Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.?

Miss MURRET. Tulane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Miss MURRET. Fortier?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?

Miss MURRET. Fortier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there?

Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and he still owes me for December.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. He had two, one on this side, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one----

Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we----

Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at Fortier?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents?

Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation?

Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or how they operate, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works?

Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how that works.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is----

Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she not----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have other brothers and sisters?

Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was very young, and I don't remember him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl?

Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when----

Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33.

Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?

Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers.

Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name?

Miss MURRET. Mancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name?

Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last name.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name?

Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in----

Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee she goes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does she have?

Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?

Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the other one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living?

Miss MURRET. Yes; two.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name?

Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls?

Miss MURRET. Two boys.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now?

Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he lives.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one?

Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four children?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls?

Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living?

Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?

Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they live?

Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then Jackie.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know, either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same State, and one in the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names?

Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. She is older?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what?

Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name?

Miss MURRET. O'Brien.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what?

Miss MURRET. One was John.

Mr. LIEBELER. John?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other?

Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know?

Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919, during World War I.

Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them?

Miss MURRET. No; there were none.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has three sons?

Miss MURRET. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite Oswald over the years?

Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days or so----

Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when?

Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.

Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. I don't really remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him occasionally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I don't think he was over very much.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember?

Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.

Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell us?

Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?

Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.

Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned around, they hit him. It was just actually that--even though he was in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, interested in that sort of thing?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she remembered those particular incidents.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his former----

Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, and that they made fun of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that opinion?

Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago--but he was very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and, of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I know, he never was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and being well mannered?

Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very cute.

But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of those students, I should say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed from his associates or fellow students at that time?

Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because--well, I think he wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what station that program was on?

Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students?

Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others?

Miss MURRET. Any other people?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program?

Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very interested.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program run by a particular reporter or commentator?

Miss MURRET. A reporter.

Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon?

Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?

Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed information.

Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally?

Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all the comments by the neighbors.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald?

Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed there a few days when he came in.

Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about 11 or 12 years old at that time?

Miss MURRET. Just about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very pretty child, and that he was adorable----

Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well, he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling child.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems?

Miss MURRET. No; he was darling.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all?

Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. He was just a very pleasant child.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with you at that time? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him.

Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was born?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that time?

Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores, and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was Jean's Hosiery Shop.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after that? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or what?

Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to figure out whether he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not?

Miss MURRET. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright young boy? Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. Ekdahl; is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl?

Miss MURRET. I met him once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with Mr. Ekdahl?

Miss MURRET. My circumstances?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances?

Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to military school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married?

Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in uniform.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this relationship?

Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, "Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was quite hesitant about it, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage?

Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if she got pregnant.

So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. And he definitely did not want any children.

So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to him or----

Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to have any children?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or afterwards?

Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?

Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?

Miss MURRET. I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?

Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again?

Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?

Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, before she went to Texas?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her?

Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?

Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how they--I mean they will slit one another's throats.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks?

Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.

Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no----

Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that?

Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, isn't that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby.

So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there during that period?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there?

Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time?

Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really had was on religion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week?

Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say?

Miss MURRET. He just listened.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?

Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary?

Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way?

Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it?

Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with you over your----

Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had?

Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came--I believe it was. After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or----

Miss MURRET. My mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him?

Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name?

Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother would know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's?

Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. And then he went to visit the grave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on Magazine Street?

Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so----

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt?

Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt?

Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture?

Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job?

Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you----

Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a job?

Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia?

Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he said about the family, that people were very family conscious----

Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place?

Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife told me at that time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time?

Miss MURRET. In Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan?

Miss MURRET. I taught school over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?

Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.

Mr. LIEBELER. John was?

Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was in Stars and Stripes.

Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why he went?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia other than what you have already told us?

Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory?

Miss MURRET. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?

Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the Soviet Union?

Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language?

Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?

Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place.

Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean?

Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he a Russian officer? Anyway----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father----

Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the Intelligence Service in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle?

Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. So, that I couldn't figure out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this?

Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, naturally.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it?

Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by the two authorities?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had given him the money? Did he tell you that?

Miss MURRET. He told my mother that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you?

Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with Lee about it before the assassination?

Miss MURRET. About what?

Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties?

Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the United States?

Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle--I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Miss MURRET. At first; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----

Miss MURRET. The first reaction.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----

Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out.

Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?

Miss MURRET. After he came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?

Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here?

Miss MURRET. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all?

Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't know--probably a year."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state?

Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get out?

Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It did not?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment?

Miss MURRET. He told me about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally?

Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. But he liked it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time?

Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought her----

Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name?

Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time?

Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was very nice to meet her.

Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved out, or after he moved out?

Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?

Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was petrified----

Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about?

Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out----

Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina?

Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go?

Miss MURRET. It was exasperating.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English?

Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the English language?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in English?

Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than that, she----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman?

Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. Paine's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the----

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember?

Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what?

Miss MURRET. Languages.

Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian?

Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some other language. He just teaches, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived?

Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine in any way?

Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking people, and she spoke Russian herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed this with you about the professor?

Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think that that would be too difficult to find.

Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?

Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him home once or twice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment?

Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it?

Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that?

Miss MURRET. On Magazine?

Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes?

Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July until September.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in September?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What did you do?

Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or 4 they came over in the bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not?

Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New Orleans during July or August of 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition?

Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that?

Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, "Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note?

Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down----

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was?

Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina?

Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or----

Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted to----

Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on this expedition?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got along with each other?

Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?

Miss MURRET. Only what I read.

Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?

Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or----

Miss MURRET. She didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment?

Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand----

Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?

Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it?

Miss MURRET. Sixty-five.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in?

Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?

Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to?

Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program?

Miss MURRET. Yes; television.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the Negro?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly--I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?

Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and Panama.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel?

Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon?

Miss MURRET. No; public transportation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?

Miss MURRET. On this trip, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?

Miss MURRET. My family.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you?

Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.

So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?

Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?

Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?

Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think it was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?

Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?

Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?

Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.

Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.

Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?

Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?

Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher?

Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?

Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?

Miss MURRET. At Juno.

Mr. LIEBELER. In school?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?

Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Slightly!

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised?

Miss MURRET. Of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it?

Miss MURRET. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything?

Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?

Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to----

Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?

Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being?

Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?

Miss MURRET. He said it was all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not?

Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?

Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was?

Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?

Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?

Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.

Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem?

Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?

Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?

Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?

Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything----

Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?

Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; however----

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?

Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?

Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?

Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.

Miss MURRET. I don't know of any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times?

Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?

Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET

The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. Did she receive those?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. You did read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, 1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard.

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Dutz.

Mr. JENNER. Dutz?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?

Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me.

Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting?

Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a career of it, or anything.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you?

Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63.

Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans?

Mr. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the way.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five?

Mr. MURRET. Five.

Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in Mobile, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.

Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb Co., is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.

Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes.

Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?

Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have.

Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.

Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.

Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her?

Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.

Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?

Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.

Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore?

Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.

Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they separated?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did.

Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see them pretty often.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What business was he in?

Mr. MURRET. The insurance business.

Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman?

Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his company.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?

Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was right after he died.

Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? Did she go to work, or what?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of my business, so I didn't ask about that.

Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business?

Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, after Mr. Oswald died?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life.

Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?

Mr. MURRET. Not too well.

Mr. JENNER. Not too well?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did they go?

Mr. MURRET. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. To Texas?

Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they left.

Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of 1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New Orleans? Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old?

Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, or do you know?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.

Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.

Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New Orleans, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that they were in New York; I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?

Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.

Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, right?

Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost contact with them.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at Exchange Alley, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them?

Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't remember what month, but it was about that.

Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then?

Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, "Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Not a thing?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house?

Mr. MURRET. Did I help him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day.

Mr. JENNER. The next day?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a couple of days afterward.

Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it?

Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time?

Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that sort of thing?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it?

Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that.

Mr. JENNER. And you drove?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove.

Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?

Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them.

Mr. JENNER. What else did he have?

Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the number is concerned, I don't know it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Marina?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine arrived?

Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.

Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two children with her.

Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home?

Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must have come in the daytime.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?

Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the baby, and Lee.

Mr. JENNER. How did this come about?

Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made over to Mobile?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over there.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there?

Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How about Marina?

Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in.

Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he was making.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?

Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything.

Mr. JENNER. You paid it?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of Castro, on the mantel there.

Mr. JENNER. On the mantel?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.

Mr. JENNER. Last summer?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In August it was there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.

Mr. JENNER. The radio?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead.

Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the program?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach him to talk American to his little child.

Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that?

Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he didn't give me an answer to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?

Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "I like America."

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What do you prefer to do in that respect?

Mr. MURRET. I will waive it.

Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your deposition?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all the questions I have.

Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. He wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right?

Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET

The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record.

Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?

Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them?

Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he not, D-u-t-z?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the New Orleans school system?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?

Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. Louis University and Loyola University.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree?

Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?

Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.

Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did have with him. Since I did live in the house and did----

Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street?

Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?

Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am not too sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or can't you----

Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind of confused now on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and Oswald was there?

Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you gain an impression about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I couldn't, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?

Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of photography?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United States?

Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the States.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in Russia? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French Street for about a week? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or some place around there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald apparently rented on Magazine Street?

Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?

Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.

Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street over to the parking lot in the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or anything. Nobody was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?

Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in New Orleans, as far as you know?

Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit priest----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along?

Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?

Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, since that time?

Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that?

Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene, indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought?

Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit priest?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for lunch----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her?

Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually couldn't speak to her, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could speak English?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination----

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the English language, did you not?

Mr. MURRET. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina together?

Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other?

Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics----

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character from your observations and experience with him in 1963?

Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, he wouldn't ask for anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of fellow?

Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you form an opinion about his intelligence?

Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him. He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive.

Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate?

Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual wouldn't use in conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time?

Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not?

Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after the radio debate?

Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in connection with those events?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name?

Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live?

Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been involved in getting Oswald out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy?

Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to hold any conversation with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he was when he was a kid?

Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic].

Mr. LIEBELER. What?

Mr. MURRET. Harmful.

Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful?

Mr. MURRET. Harmless.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret?

Mr. MURRET. I am 29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you say, or how much contact did you have with Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, that you can remember, was there?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would like to have you tell us.

Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this employment agency was looking for him?

Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was looking for. Other than that, that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes?

Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only suit he had that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out at the place on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft----

Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this point.

Mr. MURRET. O.K.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir?

Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista.

Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. PIC. I understand.

Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. 11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack Ruby.

The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, to my surprise, that you were very much alive?

Mr. PIC. I certainly am.

Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of deposition, as we are doing here today.

Mr. PIC. May I say something?

Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything.

Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was still alive.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance.

Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told him I didn't; and that was all.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the reports of his death were very much exaggerated?

So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the country, are you not?

Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way?

Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that right, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that took place when?

Mr. PIC. 1929.

Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people?

Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907.

Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate.

Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. Three years?

Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually terminated?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you separated?

Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple of years; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married to Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk.

Mr. JENNER. In what company?

Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son.

Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company?

Mr. PIC. I am, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has changed; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What do you do now?

Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department of the company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company.

Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the company.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your own words what difficulty you had with her.

Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it come out to four.

Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence?

Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not.

Mr. JENNER. On either side?

Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?

Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing off; which we did.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a nice girl at that time?

Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I had a rotten disposition, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening years; haven't you?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another "Jr.," or II or III?

Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him.

Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation?

Mr. PIC. After the separation.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the separation?

Mr. PIC. I was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, and we did.

Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered?

Mr. PIC. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child support to your son?

Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much as I could out of the salary I would make.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to her?

Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent monthly checks.

Mr. JENNER. In the same amount?

Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as alimony?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.

Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall?

Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.

Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a month, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry?

Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name?

Mr. PIC. Marjorie.

Mr. JENNER. What was her given name?

Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married.

Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow?

Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had died.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy?

Mr. PIC. Girl.

Mr. JENNER. What is her name?

Mr. PIC. Martha.

Mr. JENNER. How old is she?

Mr. PIC. 17 this July.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you?

Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., or Brownsville; I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they refresh your recollection.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it.

Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic Avenue?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas?

Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year?

Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947?

Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue?

Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort Worth about then.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she was in Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments were finally stopped, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950.

Mr. JENNER. In 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved around quite a bit, as we know?

Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the check.

Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, because I didn't know he was working.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the Coast Guard?

Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.

Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old?

Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old.

Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never seen him?

Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time.

Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you haven't seen Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that.

Mr. JENNER. 37 years?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and her son, and all.

I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, "Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald?

Mr. PIC. No; I never met him.

Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl?

Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment?

Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time?

Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother never did tell him about his old man.

Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even know if he knows you are alive, do you?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things?

Mr. PIC. No; you never know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.

Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was mentioned to me.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you want to waive that?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want a lot of publicity or anything, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and telling us what you know about it.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO

The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will provide you copies of those documents.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you actually received 3 days' notice.

Mr. CARRO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any question that you will----

Mr. CARRO. There's no problem.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro, concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953-54.

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. CARRO. Well, my name is John Carro.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. CARRO. 56 Lakeside Drive, in Yonkers, State of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. CARRO. I am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are an assistant to the mayor?

Mr. CARRO. An assistant to the mayor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. CARRO. I was born in Orocovis, P.R.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. CARRO. August 21, 1927.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States?

Mr. CARRO. I came to the United States, I believe it was in 1937--'37.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you came to New York at that time?

Mr. CARRO. New York City; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its environs?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in 1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public Administration, under the city executive program.

I am an attorney and have a B.S. degree from the University of Fordham.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law partnership where I practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court.

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what time did you first become so assigned?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am trying to recollect--from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public office or any other----

Mr. CARRO. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a social--I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the "street gang project."

From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative.

In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the mayor of the city of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate to youth, or more generally----

Mr. CARRO. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board, the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become interested in this? Was this because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior to that?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I happened to read--I heard that probation work with youth--than welfare investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work, and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police department, in the thought that I would like to do that.

I have an interest in young people.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you worked as a probation officer did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Yes, I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about that in your own words?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had been asked to come into court with the boy.

My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study. The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible determination as to the case.

This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer assigned to do the investigation in the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed in the Youth House, is that correct?

Mr. CARRO. Remanded, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Remanded.

Mr. CARRO. Pending investigation, and for a sociological study while there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this particular instance it was most important because there was a question of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed should happen in this instance.

Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what was going on in Youth House.

In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever the judge would deem in the particular instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was remanded to Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when I say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do anything.

The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he asked for the study at the Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who worked with Lee Oswald at the Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. No; I only know that--I did not know the staff by name. I had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report, but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that you remember receiving Dr. Hartogs' report?

Mr. CARRO. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr. Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that came to us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed these children and talked to them?

Mr. CARRO. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or did he just administer the work of other psychiatrists, do you know?

Mr. CARRO. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr. Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else can you remember of your contacts with Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the first couple of days. It was only almost--I believe it was after the burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas, 1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior.

A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you know who that case is?"

And he said, "That was the case you handled. Don't you remember?"

And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about something that I knew that no one else knew, and I went upstairs and I told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington, so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything."

The story didn't break in the papers--this was on a Tuesday or Wednesday--until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley, and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do with him?"

They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him." But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened. I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know, that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from the average boy that I had on probation.

And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not--how do you call it--not odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it mean anything to me.

As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty.

Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he--it seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution.

Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to it, and she resisted this.

We tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe it was, and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms, and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the court's OK.

As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes, that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting us know, and just never came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea that you were going to take the boy and place him?

Mr. CARRO. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, "Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and try that."

I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also; something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a summary report in the file that he had been elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report to that effect. Do you recall anything about that?

Mr. CARRO. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the American flag."

Mr. LIEBELER. That happens from time to time, I suppose, in children that age?

Mr. CARRO. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know, singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had the feeling that the possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that?

Mr. CARRO. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of means in Louisiana when my husband was alive."

Here in New York she just felt that people were--this was just bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her involved in whatever plan we had for the boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to seek your opinion on that.

Mr. CARRO. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her inability to cope with this situation.

Then this plus, this idea--I don't know if she, in fact, came from wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if--I can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or Louisiana, that this had----

Mr. CARRO. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that in some other States--I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that. I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the court felt that it was OK.

Mr. LIEBELER. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State, that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not?

Mr. CARRO. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it would be up to the judge.

You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark, N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing.

So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this.

Mr. LIEBELER. But despite that fact she left the jurisdiction?

Mr. CARRO. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then, and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. This is about the sum total of what happened there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost 9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant place and he was--well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated their being able to service him.

I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him down.

Children's village at the time, which could have given service to this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the limits of the situation we had with the boy at home.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth House, is it not?

Mr. CARRO. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would be an outpatient-type situation?

Mr. CARRO. An outpatient-type of situation, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never actually did do that, however, because he left the State?

Mr. CARRO. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time?

Mr. CARRO. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted as--I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more extreme nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. Than his?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a real mental problem or prone to violence or----

Mr. CARRO. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in here.

It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children.

But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man. He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going for him outside.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show any inclination to cooperate.

Mr. CARRO. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, "Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through, between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him see these things through.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy himself, you would say?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance or psychotic disorder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out----

Mr. CARRO. Fly kites or pigeons, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a tendency to stay home and watch television?

Mr. CARRO. No----

Mr. LIEBELER. Wait, please----

Mr. CARRO. I am sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city, because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my hands.

I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates--I don't think I was down there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock.

Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I fought with the Negro boys until things worked out--and, as I remember, things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school.

But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them.

Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school and that he had other, more important things to learn and do.

Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another fashion.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that some statements have been made, based apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old, to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such indication in Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from just blowing up or exploding altogether.

I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and say, "I am me. I am alive."

I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment. And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that motivated Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some people are prone to this.

I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage.

As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty sincerely say such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to review the records of the case before you----

Mr. CARRO. No; I had no--there was nothing to review. Those kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only recollection--and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned--there were five reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from me, who called me to say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you yourself have not actually reviewed----

Mr. CARRO. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to refresh my recollection about.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition that was filed, or the memorandum----

Mr. CARRO. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't--an FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what was in the record there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The record that you prepared----

Mr. CARRO. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside of the records he had.

Mr. LIEBELER. The records which you would have prepared would be prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct?

Mr. CARRO. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point as to what happened 12 years ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald. This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer based on his getting together all this data.

And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the actual study.

And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, who appeared, when, and I note that my signature--not my signature but my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954.

Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I made to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it finally concludes with your statement----

Mr. CARRO. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former associate thought that the family may have been living in California.

Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but couldn't get back any positive reports.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would this particular document, which I will mark as "Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New York--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of the record as a special report?

Mr. CARRO. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of the action taken?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is the record.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with the case?

Mr. CARRO. This is the record that the probation officer maintains while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here and make a small notation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this report?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn--and I refer to the entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation--those bearing the name John Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked is a somewhat illegible copy.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr. Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would be of help to the Commission?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you.

Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it is, and they are amply--I don't think that I could add anything independently that would be of help to the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely.

Mr. CARRO. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Carro.

Mr. CARRO. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS

The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April 16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will provide you with copies of these documents.

The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice since we are here.

Dr. HARTOGS. That's right, sure, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in 1953 or 1954.

Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Dr. HARTOGS. Renatus Hartogs.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Dr. HARTOGS. 7 East 86th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born and when?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States, Doctor?

Dr. HARTOGS. On December 4, 1940.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received your education in Germany, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what field is that?

Dr. HARTOGS. In clinical psychopathology.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are----

Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State of New York, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of medicine?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice of medicine as a psychiatrist?

Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United States as a psychiatrist?

Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium?

Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of medicine?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House of New York City, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position?

Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are.

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number. As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.

I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional public of New York City is invited.

So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason why I vaguely remember him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953.

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much the same in 1953 as they are now?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately?

Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300.

Mr. LIEBELER. A staff?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have about two staff members for every child.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were other psychiatrists.

Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your staff.

Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953?

Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. Sometimes we had even four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff continuously.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it still a private organization at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.

Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then?

Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure drawings. That is a special test that is given.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff?

Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy. Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.

So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various departments.

Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the parents of the child who are invited.

Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist.

And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth House staff.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House?

Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week.

Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you see during the period of time in a week, average week?

Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours with each child, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen for about half an hour to an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. By you?

Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that counts about 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can remember about that interview in your own words.

Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a mild charge as truancy from school.

This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is the reason why we discussed him in the seminar.

I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact with reality.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was?

Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you gave; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview with Lee Oswald itself?

Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the child; then the Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject matter for the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select these children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar prepared?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely informal.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this youngster should be committed to an institution.

Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?

Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that is the average stay.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?

Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a training school. These are the three purposes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is maximum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that Oswald be committed to?

Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. This is a prerogative of the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you recommend a child?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this case what I recommended.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the FBI?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially dangerous?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had previous contact?

Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording?

Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the expressions.

Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of work?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others?

Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that indicated this?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact?

Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did not know for sure, but it is possible.

And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, "You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for sure that it was me, because they must have read a report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then reconstructed everything in my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated, by recalling----

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, then I recalled everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any statement to television people in connection with this at all?

Dr. HARTOGS. About Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Dr. HARTOGS. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the television people asked me to make a statement on television in general about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall approximately what you said?

Dr. HARTOGS. That a person who would commit such an act has been very likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general terms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had examined Lee Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was not?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time neither one of you were----

Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence?

Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination which you had made of Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the report which you made at the time you examined Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that report since the assassination?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time, because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling that to the agents?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say, nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I remembered; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and pale-faced boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis?

Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, his mental endowment?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least average at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to my initials.

(Witness complies.)

(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report" marked "Exhibit 1.")

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the report that you prepared at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at the report that you made at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy."

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled "Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy?"

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11 years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11 years ago.

Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would indicate this possible violent outburst, is there?

Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it in the report?

Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially dangerous" in the report.

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not.

Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in occurrence, are they not amongst people?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The passive-aggressive one is the least common.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, what do they indicate?

Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile tendencies toward others?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the mother?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of psychotic mental changes could be made"?

Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and hallucinations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home environment here in New York at the time he came?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It is not the result of recent conditioning.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much, Doctor.

Dr. HARTOGS. Okay.

"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is concerned. This is his first contact with the law.

"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. He likes the give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at.

"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is 'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement.

"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and frustrations. He did not enjoy being together with other children and when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to the one of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee.

"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental disease.

"Summary for Probation Officer's Report:

"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any other form of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."

TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL

The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m., on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony since you are here. Is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts, releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it.

Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the transcripts are released?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mrs. SIEGEL. 1347 River Road, Teaneck.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mrs. SIEGEL. New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in New York as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. In March of 1950.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue in that work?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I'm still working as a social worker.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the city?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; on a part-time basis.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mrs. SIEGEL. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of Social Work.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. For whom did you work as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still working for Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I'm not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did you terminate your employment with Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in August--well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same institution setup, in August of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth House as it existed in 1953?

Mrs. SIEGEL. In what aspect?

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me?

Mrs. SIEGEL. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court, so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth House, which was given to the judge.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a report was this? What was in it? What did it say?

Mrs. SIEGEL. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the Youth House psychiatrist?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Dr. Renatus Hartogs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and reported, do you know?

Mrs. SIEGEL. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by Dr. Hartogs alone.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those would be given to the social workers; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And used as a basis for the social worker's report?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Not as a basis for it but incorporated into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social worker; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. SIEGEL. After the President's assassination, the name meant nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans, which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as it was at that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your recollection?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And improve it at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since the----

Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in those days. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to his mother at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am terribly curious to see my report again.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you know Dr. Hartogs?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to 1958--6 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him since that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; we don't see each other socially at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't spoken to him?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the Oswald case; is that right?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't seen him since I left Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that from time to time the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the psychologists and other employees of Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars. We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being the sole role.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there were seminars?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you. Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the subject of one of these seminars?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I only read in the paper that it was truancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no independent recollection about it otherwise at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7, 1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time have been you; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And still is?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you prepared?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is indubitably mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of the interview, were they not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he was still at Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. The point being that the report would accurately reflect the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother?

Mrs. SIEGEL. As accurately as I could; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was prepared on or about the time that you conducted the interview, was it not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Correct, yes; and shortly afterward.

(Document marked "Exhibit 1.")

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964, and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

(Witness complies.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another report, which upon examination you will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are.

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which should go into the report to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your actual contact with the boy and with the mother?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other personnel; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy," and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of 7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2.

(Document marked "Exhibit 2.")

Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an "E" like that. I don't know who did that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report prepared by you?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed so that you could add anything other than that which is already set forth in the written report which you prepared at that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in 1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of violence?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not prepared to say.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the material set forth in your report; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye.

TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO

The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa Ana, Calif., for a period of time.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?

Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?

Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that last 6 in that digit means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic training took care of that.

December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?

Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line battery, Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.

Mr. LIEBELER. First cook?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am working.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language school.

Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?

Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and my mother lives in California.

Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.

Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S. No. 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California?

Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the 11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you then join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?

Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2 months, and I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My mother came when she was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?

Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi or Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school in Jacksonville and Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military Occupation Specialty. Is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?

Mr. DELGADO. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----

Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----

Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----

Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets knew these things?

Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication charts, which is also a secret.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?

Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?

Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?

Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't associate with too many people.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.

So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?

Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----

Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.

He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that I know of out or see anybody about it.

As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?

Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's

Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?

Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another.

Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man that complained quite frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oz?

Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a couple of guys stationed with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was two of them stationed with him overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else overseas other than Atsugi?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines for a while?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum----

Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?

Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?

Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?

Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in the line from you when you fired?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?

Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?

Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?

Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported----

Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.

Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?

Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.

Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you speak?

Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man from England the way he speaks pure English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in interpreting my Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they talked to you? Were they----

Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different fellows.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when?

Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after Kennedy's assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November 22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base--is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the Spanish-speaking man was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up.

Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."

Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not come close to winning?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I always had an expert badge on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one.

Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. That's why they are so strict.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You just have to take your chances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this?

Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.

Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.

You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?

Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even in connection with this?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place?

Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I never got real close to any of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?

Mr. DELGADO. The address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the Spanish-speaking agent was present?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?

Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him.

You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going to do.

If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it.

Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and----

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.

As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something.

And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to answer him. I told him go see them.

After a while he told me he was in contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. He always had money. That's why.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?

Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was pretty tight.

So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him.

We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his.

I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.

Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana, Mexico.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man, because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to 10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night.

I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked to?

Mr. DELGADO. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard duty that he was on; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run?

Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to 4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time with the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the Cuban consulate; did he not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the envelope, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that?

Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't understand. It was Latin.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that paper again, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban consulate was about?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going over to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to--once he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in 2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over here in 2 years, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider----

Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact if we wanted to go, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious about going to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's attitude and his approach?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from Cuba that we were before.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were getting a distorted view of Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got came from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started corresponding with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian--aside from English, of course?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that?

Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must have been supported by Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Louisiana?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of his arrest.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though?

Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing pamphlets out in the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never did follow through. There was too much redtape.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the investigation there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in Berlin, going to school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this idea?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the Soviet Union?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict, you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to study there. He wanted to study psychology.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very well have gone to the one in Berlin?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train him their way.

(Short recess.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they would train him their way?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.

Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured this out for yourself?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be understood. That's not too clear, is it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a 117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or anything like that.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how well Oswald could speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean?

Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that?

Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far as basic conversation and debate; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?

Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was small talk when we were talking Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo----

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home.

Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish.

Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom----

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English?

Mr. DELGADO. In English.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple of other fellows went to Tijuana.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your outfit?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?

Mr. DELGADO. Jones.

Mr. LIEBELER. Jones?

Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do?

Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that. Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much?

Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase. I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that you use it now and not later?" Things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to put them in a sentence logically?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that?

Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain.

Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned the Spanish words?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas known?

Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and made himself understood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the kind you buy out there for about $2.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.

Mr. DELGADO. Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do remember, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German?

Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been to Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian?

Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other language to any extent; he just used a few words?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was speaking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words?

Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?

Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing that is happening now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change your story?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the proposition that Oswald understood Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say.

Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be at a tie with the Cuban government.

Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you get about the agents?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I am concerned.

If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6 months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me, I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months' time he could hold a conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself were not good at Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents' attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That is no practical use for him, you know.

I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what I teach these guys, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and understand them; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking agent was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your Spanish to express yourself completely?

Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States?

Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then?

Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many times Oswald went to Los Angeles?

Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just once?

Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as far as I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion?

Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these people.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never asked him. It wasn't my business, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on weekends at other times?

Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know----

Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion that you can remember; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, you know. I was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other week or anything like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Every week?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three weekends a month.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times that he went into Los Angeles?

Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he would often talk at length about the opera; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried to be a listener, but I wasn't too interested.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to be interested in girls?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9 times out of 10 I ended up paying for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports?

Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I read in Life Magazine?

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say?

Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he went off the team.

To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we worked, and he was too old to play football.

Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was? Was this the issue----

Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover, holding the rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any interest in sports?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports.

Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the football team?

Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and handball; and that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player?

Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so.

Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play?

Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, quarterback or anything like that, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these?

Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football.

Mr. DELGADO. Flag football.

Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football?

Mr. DELGADO. Touch football.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this trip to Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, it happened on one of our weekends off.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me there. I would say about May, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959.

Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before the rifle qualification or after?

Mr. DELGADO. After.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much after?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period, because we were about just gotten paid, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why because they worked in a different department than I did there, never had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with me plenty of times and he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's go to Tijuana."

He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of us were, in casual clothes.

We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before, because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to get to this place, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo?

Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of Tijuana. Have you been over there?

Mr. LIEBELER. No.

Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2 miles away from the center of the town.

When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was really nice, a nice place.

Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all.

Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P. gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put in for a new I.D. card and what have you.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. In Tijuana.

Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across----

Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border?

Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone.

Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay in Tijuana itself or did you stay across the border?

Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown Tijuana.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where?

Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me like he had one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his experiences, that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like that to exist, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a copy of Das Kapital?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it.

So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know.

He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it.

Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only logical explanation.

They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book, the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running the whole farm and the farmer was working for them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is called the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell.

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book?

Mr. LIEBELER. No.

Mr. DELGADO. That is just the way you interpret it; right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an anti-Communist book.

Mr. DELGADO. Is it really?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each other a little bit; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army, very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's statement with no proof whatsoever.

So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," you know.

I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.

Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher----

Mr. LIEBELER. More highly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I come back he was already gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he actually got out of the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get away from Oswald before you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be under another guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody?

Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted?

Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to the other huts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before this question of your transfer ever came up?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let us review that for a moment.

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately----

Mr. DELGADO. 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave?

Mr. DELGADO. What?

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave and then come back?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come back to New York?

Mr. DELGADO. To New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them about August.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good weather.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually transferred to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the Marines together about going to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never did?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least $800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to go through.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was?

Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los Angeles--the month, you want?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it----

Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle practice?

Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I don't think we had any political discussions at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these incidents, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after your leave before you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald "Comrade," or anything like that, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that?

Mr. DELGADO. Call.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get mixed up in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him Oswaldovich?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too?

Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit.

Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have too many close friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports and that sort of thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped out, Oswald the first one he seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who?

Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, Holbrook or--something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato rancher.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these people?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember mentioning him to the FBI agents?

Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call?

Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Corporal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Private.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been promoted?

Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he was court-martialed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for?

Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area?

Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the war room.

Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching----

Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were passing notes back and forth.

Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time?

Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men.

Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft on their scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes?

Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the plotting board.

Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft.

Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks.

Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week.

Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all?

Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them----

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, and he was also our platoon officer.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away.

Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, "You're getting as bad as Oz."

But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on restriction at the same time.

Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be court-martialed for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?

Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you back.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say?

Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in trouble like that?

Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two guys defected.

Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing just how you go about doing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also defected to Russia at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year afterwards?

Mr. DELGADO. A year later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men did defect?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States into Mexico into Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something to that effect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination that Oswald went to Mexico?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him to cross over into Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. Or had any----

Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are confusing this as something that Oswald said before?

Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in 1960 or 1961.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was religious.

Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a Maker.

Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He himself never went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible?

Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show how wrong it was?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and I told them he was an atheist. That's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly?

Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he did that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase it--everything was common or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good thing?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning everything, and everybody worked for the state.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, and like socialism, and still hate the military?

Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him what to do?

Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, he wouldn't like anything you told him to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?

(Short recess.)

(Question read.)

Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's----

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that somebody should give orders like this and----

Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to do any such thing?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that he planned to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before----

Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland.

Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once?

Mr. DELGADO. Once.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into any trouble? Do you remember that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina would be the next best."

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he intended to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition treaties?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you know, university--campus.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Don?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your recollection on that?

Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I seen Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, you know, that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to teach----

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, so we didn't have that much time together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on the post for a while after he came to----

Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call him Lee or----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name?

Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I didn't even know his name was Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real program to teach him Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he wanted interpreted, that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in your outfit?

Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, Charley Brown, but I can't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the FBI now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not Brown.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his estimation.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were as smart as Oswald was?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The officers?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could imagine.

Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you know, and leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional beer. I never seen him drunk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual tendencies?

Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or did you ever discuss that with him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced?

Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS

The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.

And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event.

One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089.

Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment.

Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And with a family?

Mr. POWERS. Of two children.

Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you born?

Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers?

Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise?

Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge.

Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time?

Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that?

Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them----

Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it.

Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.

Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping and Receiving Station, Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May 1956.

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957.

Mr. JENNER. 1957?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."

And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in fact it was May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. I mean previous to this May 2d order.

Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not?

Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to----

Mr. POWERS. Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in Mississippi, Biloxi?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And who were the others?

Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Read it, please.

Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?

Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.

Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d?

Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please.

Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you about.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did.

Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?

Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"?

Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from then on were--ran relatively parallel?

Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.

I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?

Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to Keesler.

I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age?

Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth?

Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was----

Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October 18, 1939?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful?

Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given?

Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. So we reported for duty on that particular day.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in Keesler Field.

Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was similar; it was the same in context.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively parallel then?

Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in the classes that we did attend.

Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and warning operator course?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military Occupation Specialty?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and then after--

Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me.

Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim.

And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early warning system.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler?

Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we picked up our orders to go to California.

Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day?

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June 19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July 1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20----

Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days.

Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.

Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time?

Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to use.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general personality would alienate the group against him.

And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. On what?

Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, this is a personal opinion.

And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were in there in Mississippi.

He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything.

He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an intelligent individual.

He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Of what?

Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that is really true or something that I want to recall----

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like----

Mr. POWERS. About him.

Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report from you as we possibly can.

Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same barracks?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, two in the room.

It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that something came up at this particular time.

He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just as good as anybody wanted to be.

Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified to say who was----

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the course of your studies?

Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to me, please?

(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at Keesler?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other personally more than at any other time.

I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind as well as the other people in the group.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to worry about him as competitively?

Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any differentiation of privates.

I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank barrier or difference here.

I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank said something.

Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out?

Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant.

Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had homosexual tendencies?

Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and----

Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some respects.

Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine----

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that period of time.

Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you elaborate on that?

Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time he did not.

And I would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was responsive to the group as a whole.

At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see today. I see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own that he was an individual that you could sway.

Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term.

I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have.

I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and he stood in his beliefs.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching?

Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now.

Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high school, if any?

Mr. POWERS. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree from the University, and this will either be in physical education or guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education attendance after you left the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine Corps, and then I went after my service.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school?

Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my education.

And I think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any individual that had a college education, there was a number of them while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of college education.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further education?

Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject?

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