Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. Kept on walking in the same direction?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?

Mrs. REID. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that----

Mr. BELIN. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?

Mrs. REID. No; he did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please?

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. DULLES. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you----

Mrs. REID. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our office into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. And you locked that door?

Mrs. REID. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room.

Mr. DULLES. Did you take the key?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.

Mr. DULLES. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when I got to it, I will say that.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know?

Mrs. REID. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room.

I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. The porter locks it in the evening.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Or the outside, either way?

Mrs. REID. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. Who has custody of the key?

Mrs. REID. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all have the keys.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get it to unlock the door?

Mrs. REID. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge?

Mrs. REID. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not watching the clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right.

Mrs. REID. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions.

Mr. BELIN. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any way?

Mrs. REID. I could have heard him open the door.

Mr. BELIN. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear anyone open the door to the conference room?

Mrs. REID. I do not recall any.

Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?

Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in which the arrow number 29 is pointing?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway.

Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald leave the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I haven't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of the building?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying anything in either arm other than a coke?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?

Mrs. REID. It was full.

Mr. BELIN. It was full.

Was there anything else you noticed about him?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about the expression on his face?

Mrs. REID. No; just calm.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or dirty?

Mrs. REID. Well, they were clean.

Mr. BELIN. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual.

Mr. BELIN. You say he mumbled something?

Mrs. REID. He did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?

Mrs. REID. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.

Mr. DULLES. Was he moving fast?

Mrs. REID. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did see him moving fast at any time.

Mr. BELIN. He was moving just at his normal walk?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry like a watch or bracelet or ring or something?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what hand?

Mrs. REID. In his right hand.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Just one moment.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?

Mr. DULLES. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the period he was employed?

Mrs. REID. My goodness.

Mr. DULLES. Roughly.

Mrs. REID. It couldn't have been----

Mr. DULLES. Five times, 10 times?

Mrs. REID. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.

Mr. DULLES. Never talked to anyone?

Mrs. REID. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.

Mr. DULLES. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that?

Mrs. REID. I never did try it, I never did.

Mr. DULLES. You never tried it.

Mrs. REID. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can recall, not any time.

Mr. DULLES. Who in the organization so far as you know would have handled his paychecks?

Mrs. REID. Mr. Campbell.

Mr. DULLES. Campbell would have handled his paychecks.

Mrs. REID. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I am sure he distributes it to his employees.

Mr. BELIN. Two questions, Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time?

Mrs. REID. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 minutes time----

Mr. BELIN. Did we kind of run?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we did, three times.

Mr. BELIN. Three times.

Mrs. REID. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. And we were both huffing and puffing?

Mrs. REID. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I heard the employees say.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been friendly with at least one other employee?

Mrs. REID. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves?

Mrs. REID. You mean prior to this?

Mr. DULLES. Prior, during the period he was employed there?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. DULLES. At the Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. I never heard it.

Mr. DULLES. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office employees?

Mrs. REID. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there a long time.

Mr. DULLES. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, it is; every day.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you and the others?

Mrs. REID. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not.

Mr. DULLES. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give any--half the working days?

Mrs. REID. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that interested him.

But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying.

Mr. DULLES. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. You mean by name before this happened?

Mr. DULLES. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one of the employees of the school book?

Mrs. REID. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?

Mrs. REID. No.

Mr. CARR. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?

Mrs. REID. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.

Mr. DULLES. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?

Mrs. REID. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.

Mr. DULLES. You want that admitted now?

Mr. BELIN. We want that admitted now.

Mr. DULLES. No objection. It will be admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.

We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.

I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness.

We will reconvene at 2:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre.

Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand?

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOONEY. I do, sir.

Senator COOPER. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this inquiry.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?

Mr. MOONEY. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in that job?

Mr. MOONEY. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. MOONEY. Hopkins County, south of Brashear.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. MOONEY. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. MOONEY. I finished high school there.

Mr. BALL. And then where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, I finished making a crop--I was a farm boy. My father passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about--at that time was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of Dallas.

And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the first.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. MOONEY. From 1942--I went in December, I believe it was, 28th, 1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then, after that?

Mr. MOONEY. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to Dallas.

After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business course at Drawns Business College in Dallas.

I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co.

And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office?

Mr. MOONEY. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law, Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job. However, we do everything that comes down.

Mr. BALL. What do you call that writ?

Mr. MOONEY. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What was your job on that day?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to approach.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing there when the President went by?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I took my hat off.

Mr. BALL. That is on Main Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Right.

Mr. BALL. And that is----

Mr. MOONEY. 505 Main.

Mr. BALL. That is where the cavalcade turned north?

Mr. MOONEY. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't it--south of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; it is a short block there.

Mr. BALL. After the President's car went by, what did you do?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, we were--we was more or less milling around. We just kept standing there, more or less talking to one another.

I don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many.

Mr. BALL. You say "we." Who was with you?

Mr. MOONEY. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram--he is an officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP judge.

I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall how many more. There was a number of officers there.

Mr. BALL. What happened, as you remember?

Mr. MOONEY. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.

Mr. BALL. You mean to the right?

Mr. MOONEY. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. And I turned my head to the right.

Mr. BALL. That would be looking towards Houston Street?

Mr. MOONEY. Looking towards the old court.

Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingram--he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. MOONEY. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this lawn, across Elm Street there--I assume it is approximately the location the President was hit.

Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various things. I was running at full speed.

Mr. BALL. When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.

Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there.

And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go over to the railroad yard?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.

Mr. BALL. That would be north and west from where you were standing?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many seconds--of course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. How did you get those orders?

Mr. MOONEY. They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when he gave you those orders?

Mr. MOONEY. They were relayed on to us. I assume Mr. Decker was up near the intersection of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear it over a loudspeaker?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. It come by word, by another officer.

Mr. BALL. And you were with Walters at that time?

Mr. MOONEY. Right. And where Officer Walters went at that time, I don't know. We split up. I didn't see him any more until later on, which I will refer to later.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY. Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL. They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance--I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL. Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY. They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner."

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY. It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY. I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL. You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL. Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL. You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY. I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL. Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows--some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there--in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was coming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there--that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.

So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.

Well, so I hollered, or signaled--I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too--except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.

So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--I believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from--they was all en route up there, I assume.

Mr. BALL. I show you three pictures, Officer; for your convenience I will give you the pictures.

I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the building as you saw it that afternoon?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day was this?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at your watch?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Were you the only officer in that corner?

Mr. MOONEY. At that very moment I was.

Mr. BALL. You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out for me what boxes you squeezed through?

Mr. MOONEY. If I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle right here--right through here. There could be a space. There is a space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the shells.

Mr. BALL. All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space?

Mr. MOONEY. I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that time.

Mr. BALL. That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an arrow shown on Exhibit 508.

Now, I will show you 509.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for identification.)

Is that the way the boxes looked?

Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. Now, does that look like----

Mr. MOONEY. That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are they arranged as they were when you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY. I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box tilted off.

Mr. BALL. What were the boxes--did they have a label on them, two of the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY. These do. I didn't notice the label at that time.

Mr. BALL. That is a picture of the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the top box was tilted?

Mr. MOONEY. The end of it was laying this way.

Mr. BALL. You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease?

Mr. MOONEY. This crease was right in this area of this box.

Mr. BALL. You mean over on the edge?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my finger.

Mr. BALL. Did it go into the box?

Mr. MOONEY. Very slight crease, very slight.

Mr. BALL. Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on 509?

Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing----

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you found it?

Mr. MOONEY. It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. This here is kind of blurred.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the empty shells you found?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are they shown there?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?

Mr. MOONEY. All right.

Mr. BALL. Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the way they were when you saw them, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the first shot.

Mr. BALL. You cannot speculate about that?

Mr. MOONEY. You cannot speculate about that.

Mr. BALL. Those were empty shells?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were turned over to Captain Fritz?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. They were brass cartridges, brass shells.

Mr. BALL. Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.

Mr. BALL. Which ones?

Mr. MOONEY. This one and this one.

Mr. BALL. Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY. The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And this one and this one, they were further away from this one.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. MOONEY. But as to being positive of the exact distance----

Mr. BALL. You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?

Mr. MOONEY. As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

Mr. BALL. Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as "A", "B", and "C."

Now, I didn't quite understand--did you say it was your memory that "A" and "B" were not that close together?

Mr. MOONEY. Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to have been over this way a little further.

Mr. BALL. You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?"

Mr. MOONEY. Closer to the "C"; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have marked as 511.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this appear to be--first of all, does that appear----

Mr. MOONEY. There are two cartridges.

Where is the third one?

Mr. BALL. The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from another angle.

Mr. MOONEY. This looks more like it than this angle here.

Mr. BALL. You can see it is a different angle.

Mr. MOONEY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this same picture--511, you see a box in the window. Does that seem to be about the angle----

Mr. MOONEY. Yes; that box was tilted.

Mr. BALL. That was tilted in that way?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509----

Mr. MOONEY. The box should have been actually tilted.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it?

Mr. MOONEY. If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen off--looked like he might have knocked it off.

Mr. BALL. Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the box that had the crease on it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, the crease was--started from the edge, and came across?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; just a slight crease.

Mr. BALL. I have another picture. This is 512.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that show the cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, compare that with 510.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way it looked?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is.

Mr. BALL. Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side.

Mr. MOONEY. Well, they were further over to the left of the window than over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture.

Mr. BALL. In 509?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference to----

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here, and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes.

Mr. BALL. You could stand on the right of the boxes?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this ledge.

Mr. BALL. And put your head out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Was the window open when you got there?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked out the window?

Mr. MOONEY. I don't believe I could, without disturbing them. Possibly I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Exhibit 513.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is another view of that window.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it from that angle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. You don't think you have ever seen it----

Mr. MOONEY. From that angle.

Mr. BALL. Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?

Mr. MOONEY. If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.

Mr. BALL. Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?

Mr. MOONEY. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.

Mr. BALL. By poke, you mean a paper sack?

Mr. MOONEY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MOONEY. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.

Mr. BALL. On the same carton?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.

Senator COOPER. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.

Senator COOPER. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY. Sir?

Senator COOPER. And the paper bag you spoke of?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How big a bag was it?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.

Mr. BALL. About 12 inches?

Mr. MOONEY. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.

Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?

Mr. MOONEY. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any soda pop?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Any other chicken bones?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; except in the picture.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see it?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I showed you that.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you did not see that two-wheel truck?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was. But I didn't check it.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. MOONEY. Sir?

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found the location of the three cartridges?

Mr. MOONEY. Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes longer--after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of officers up there. The floor was covered with officers, And we were searching, trying to find the weapon at that time.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when it was found?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun."

Mr. BALL. Did you go over there?

Mr. MOONEY. I stepped over there.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. MOONEY. I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright position. The scope was up.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, I will show you a picture, 514.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for identification.)

Senator COOPER. May I ask--did you change the position of the shells which you have identified?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them.

Senator COOPER. Or the bag, or chicken leg?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Until--before the chief came?

Mr. MOONEY. Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief.

Senator COOPER. Was there any odor in the area when you first got there?

Mr. MOONEY. I didn't particularly notice any. Now, there could have been a slight powder odor there.

(At this point, Mr. Warren entered the hearing room.)

Senator COOPER. Did you smell any powder?

Mr. MOONEY. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Of course it was musty odor, with all those cartons and books there.

Mr. BALL. Do you see the picture which is 514? Does it look like anything like that?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around it than that. In other words, the way it looked to me, when I walked over there--of course these may have been disturbed at a later date.

Mr. BALL. It looks like there are more cartons?

Mr. MOONEY. No; there is less cartons around it right now. Of course that is looking straight down. Now, there are some more boxes here.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which we will mark as 515.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 515 for identification.)

Mr. MOONEY. But that is in the position the gun was laying.

Mr. BALL. That is about the position of the gun?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. Can you orient yourself from that picture?

Mr. MOONEY. Let's see. Here is the staircase right in here. If I remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. I don't remember which.

Mr. BALL. Does that show you about the number of cartons around?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. Because I had to stand up back here, before I could see over off in there.

Mr. BALL. And when you did look down there between the cartons, was the gun----

Mr. MOONEY. It was sitting in that position. The scope was up.

Mr. BALL. As shown in 514?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. That is the way it was laying, in that position.

Senator COOPER. It was lying on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. With the scope on the upper side?

Mr. MOONEY. The scope in upright position. The stock was back to the east. In other words, the gun was pointed west.

Mr. BALL. Did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were there?

Mr. MOONEY. There was a number of photographers up there shooting pictures. Who they were or who they represented--I assume it was the press.

Mr. BALL. How long were they there?

Mr. MOONEY. They were there when all these officers and everybody was up there.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. How far was it from the place where the gun was found, from where you first saw the rifle, to the window?

Mr. MOONEY. You mean how far was it from the gun to the window?

Senator COOPER. Yes; where you saw the shells.

Mr. MOONEY. Well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor, thereabouts. In other words, if you take the location from where the shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. And this was in the far northwest corner. Just right there at the staircase.

And the distance across there, I just don't know how far it is, but it is quite a large warehouse floor.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. I would like to offer the exhibits up to 515, inclusive. May this witness be excused?

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator Cooper?

Senator COOPER. As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells.

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is----

Senator COOPER. The chicken and the paper bag?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off, laying partially over on the legs.

Senator COOPER. That was the box which you said you observed a crease in?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight.

Senator COOPER. Is that the box which was the top box?

Mr. MOONEY. The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my knowledge.

Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.)

Mr. MOONEY. In other words, if you just run against it, you would have knocked it off.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very helpful.

Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Deputy Sheriff Boone.

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE BOONE

The CHAIRMAN. Sit right down, Mr. Boone.

Senator COOPER. The purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theatre.

Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOONE. I do.

Senator COOPER. You understand the purpose of this inquiry?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You have come here voluntarily to testify?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Do you have a counsel with you?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire one?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. BOONE. I am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a deputy sheriff?

Mr. BOONE. A year and a half.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BOONE. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. BOONE. High school.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. BOONE. I was working with the Dallas Times Herald Newspaper there, in the advertising department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I worked there part time when I was going to school, up until the time I quit, 8 years.

Mr. BALL. Is that the time you went with the sheriff's office?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BOONE. Twenty-six.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, where were you working?

Mr. BOONE. I was working downtown. I was out viewing the parade.

Mr. BALL. Where did you view the parade?

Mr. BOONE. Right in front of the sheriff's office.

Mr. BALL. Had you been assigned a place, a job that day?

Mr. BOONE. No.

Mr. BALL. You were out in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Near Houston?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And who were you with?

Mr. BOONE. Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what-have-you. Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember.

Mr. BALL. What happened there?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the shots. The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street there.

Mr. BALL. You raced across what street?

Mr. BOONE. Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. You turned to your right and went west?

Mr. BOONE. Well, there is a big cement works out there. We went on west across Houston Street, and then cut across the grass out there behind the large cement works there. Some of the bystanders over there seemed to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, from over the triple underpass.

So there was some city officer, I don't know who he was, motorcycle officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards there. He went over the wall first, and I was right behind him, going into the freight yards. We searched out the freight yards. We were unable to find anything.

Mr. BALL. A good many officers over there searching?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; there were. Most all of the officers--well, all of the officers in front of the sheriff's office there. There were others that I don't recall. There were other officers in the area. Also, they all ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down into the freight yards.

Mr. BALL. Any railroad employees around there?

Mr. BOONE. There was one colored boy way on back down in the freight yards. He had been working on one of the pullmans down there.

Mr. BALL. And didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. A man named Bowers?

Mr. BOONE. I don't know what his name was. He was up in the tower and I hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in the freight yards, or heard any shots. And he said he didn't hear any shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard.

Mr. BALL. That was a railroad tower?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book depository. Almost directly west of the building.

Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I finally went around and was talking to some of the spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of Betzer. He had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there were photographs--he thought he might have had a portion of the building.

Later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the building, from that southeast corner over there. And he had some photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up into the building then?

Mr. BOONE. I took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time to await somebody to take a statement from him.

Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I don't know whether--I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or not at that time--they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building.

At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney found the shells.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells?

Mr. BOONE. Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got up to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE. Well, I proceeded to the east end of the building, I guess, and started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor. Looking for the weapon. And as I got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. I squeezed through them.

When I did--I had my light in my hand. I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. BOONE. Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. And at that time Captain Fritz and an ID man came over. I believe the ID man's name was Lieutenant Day--I am not sure. They came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. And at that time Captain Fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw them take the photograph?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?

Mr. BOONE. There was an Officer Weitzman, I believe. He is a deputy constable.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle located on the floor, general location?

Mr. BOONE. Well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other two sides. And from that, it was almost directly in front or about 3 feet south, I guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up the stairwell.

Mr. BALL. The rifle was about 3 feet from the----

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. There was a row of boxes that came across there. Then the rifle was behind that first row of boxes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 514. Is that the way it looked when you saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the way it was when the picture was taken?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?

Mr. BOONE. That is right. Then you could kneel down over here and see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down underneath the boxes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 515. Does that look anything like the area where you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. This is that retaining wall here that I was talking about here. Now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost directly. This is the west end of the building here, this being the north side, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BOONE. Yes. And it is about 3 feet from the edge--you cannot see the edge of it because it is behind this.

Mr. BALL. The edge of what?

Mr. BOONE. The stairwell wall here. It is about 3 feet from where this partition ends over to--back behind these cases of books here.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is 514?

Mr. BOONE. What do you mean--the exact space? It was in this space right in here, like this.

Mr. BALL. The arrow marks the space.

Mr. BOONE. I had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over here, and that is when I saw it, looking down across this way.

Mr. BALL. You came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this picture 514?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And when you looked in the direction that would be easterly, that is when you saw the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. Northeasterly.

Mr. BALL. Here is another picture which we will mark as 516.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 516 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, 515 contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you an exhibit marked 516. Does that show--what corner of the building does that show? Or do you recognize it?

Mr. BOONE. It appears to be the same general location here.

Mr. BALL. Show----

Mr. BOONE. This is the stairwell back here in the corner. If I am not mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here.

Mr. BALL. That would be the right of the picture?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle.

Mr. BOONE. Right down in this general direction.

Mr. BALL. Draw another arrow. I show you Exhibit 483, a diagram of the sixth floor. Now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us approximately where the rifle was found?

Mr. BOONE. Roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow No. 35.

Mr. BALL. The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken.

In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it, too. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. What time was it?

Mr. BOONE. 1:22 p.m., in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. 1:22?

Mr. BOONE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. I show you a rifle which is Commission Exhibit 139. Can you tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor that day?

Mr. BOONE. It looks like the same rifle. I have no way of being positive.

Mr. BALL. You never handled it?

Mr. BOONE. I did not touch the weapon at all.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with this witness, which is 515 to 516 and 517, into evidence.

Senator COOPER. Let the exhibits be admitted in evidence.

(The documents referred to marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 515, 516, and 517 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right?

Mr. BOONE. That is correct. The city officers had personnel in charge up there. Captain Fritz, I believe, was in charge, senior officer on the floor.

He was called to the location as soon as I found the rifle. He came over, and it was photographed then.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered had a telescopic sight?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did.

Senator COOPER. Did it have a sling?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, it did. Because Captain Fritz picked it up by the sling when he removed it from its resting place.

Senator COOPER. Looking at Exhibit 483, which represents the floor plan of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found the rifle. Is that near the stairwell?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast corner.

Senator COOPER. Also near the elevators?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, Senator Cooper, I think you said northeast.

Mr. BOONE. Northwest--I beg your pardon.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember whether Officer Mooney came up after you found the rifle?

Mr. BOONE. I don't recall. There were officers, both city and county officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. Now, whether he was among the crowd there, I do not know.

Senator COOPER. When you climbed over the retaining wall at the railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard was at that time? Were there railroad cars in the area?

Mr. BOONE. There were four railroad cars down approximately 100 yards from the retaining wall, right over the Elm Street tunnel, or portion of the triple underpass. Then there were some people down to the south of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing the parade--I don't know. The city officer went back south, as I recall, and I went off to the north, northwest.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Sheriff, thank you very much.

Mr. BALL. There is one question. Did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. Yes, I did. And at first, not knowing what it was, I thought it was 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?

Mr. BOONE. I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. This is when Lieutenant Day, I believe his name is, the ID man was getting ready to photograph it.

We were just discussing it back and forth. And he said it looks like a 7.65 Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Sheriff. You have been very helpful.

Mr. BALL. Call Officer McDonald.

TESTIMONY OF M. N. McDONALD

Senator COOPER. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you swear that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McDONALD. I do.

Senator COOPER. You understand that the purpose of this inquiry is to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the late President Kennedy?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Senator COOPER. Today's hearings are to hear testimony of various witnesses, including yourself, who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and because it is reported you apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas theatre.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you testify here voluntarily?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you have counsel with you?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you desire counsel?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McDonald, where do you live?

Mr. McDONALD. 530 South Port Drive.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. McDONALD. Camden, Ark.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Arkansas?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I finished through the 11th grade, took an equivalent for a high school diploma, and I attended 1 year at Arkansas State Teachers College in Conway.

Mr. BALL. What year was that?

Mr. McDONALD. 1948 and 1949.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, worked in a printing firm for awhile, after getting out of college a year. Then I joined the Air Force. But in a break between high school and college, I entered the Navy, in January 1946. I served 22 months in the Navy, active duty.

Mr. BALL. Then you say in the 1950's you joined the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; December 29, 1950.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. Four years.

Mr. BALL. What work did you do in the Air Force?

Mr. McDONALD. I was a supply sergeant.

Mr. BALL. After that, what did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I became a policeman in the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. That was in 1956?

Mr. McDONALD. March 3, 1955.

Mr. BALL. And you have been a police officer ever since?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on March--November 22, 1963?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was your job that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Radio patrol.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. McDONALD. From 7:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Did you ride alone or have a partner?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had a partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. McDONALD. T. R. Gregory.

Mr. BALL. Were you cruising about 12:30 that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In what area?

Mr. McDONALD. On the Westmoreland Avenue and Falls Drive intersection.

Mr. BALL. Was your area, an area close to downtown Dallas or outside?

Mr. McDONALD. Outside, approximately 8 miles.

Mr. BALL. Did you get an order over the radio about that time to move your car?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the order?

Mr. McDONALD. Report to the vicinity of Elm and Houston Streets, code 3.

Mr. BALL. And did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he also a radio patrol officer?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. Did he cruise alone or with a partner?

Mr. McDONALD. He was cruising alone.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what his area--the area assigned to him on that day?

Mr. McDONALD. The southern part of Oak Cliff, nearing the city limits.

Mr. BALL. Was that farther out from the center of town than you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; approximately 10 to 12 miles.

Mr. BALL. Did Tippit usually cruise alone, or did he ever have a partner sometimes?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, working in the daylight hours, which we were assigned that month, it is a custom to work alone--unless he had a trainee, such as I. I don't believe he was a trainer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you had a trainee with you, and that is the reason you were not alone?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear an order over the radio for cars in the outlying district near the city limits, what they were to do?

Mr. McDONALD. They were to move in closer to the downtown area, but not directly to the area.

Mr. BALL. You were ordered to move into the downtown area?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the cars that were cruising farther out were ordered to move closer to the downtown area?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any other specific orders over the radio that day--that morning, or about 12:30, 1 o'clock?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you received those orders?

Mr. McDONALD. I applied my red lights and sirens, and went code 32, Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. About what time did you get there?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 10 minutes later.

Mr. BALL. What time would that be?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 12:40.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park your car?

Mr. McDONALD. On the right curb, Elm Street, before you enter the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. McDONALD. Approximately 35 minutes.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing there?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, after I left the car, my partner and I reported to a supervisor, and he directed us to patrol the crowd and move the crowd around Elm Street, and rope off the area.

Mr. BALL. Now, was your radio on?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. There were several police units around the intersection, and all the radios were on. And after I had moved the crowd around, went back to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository, I heard this over the police radio, of--the first thing I heard was that President Kennedy had expired at Parkland Hospital.

And the next thing I heard was a voice over the radio that was not familiar to police procedure. He was saying that an officer had been shot, and that he was using car No. 10 radio. Of my own knowledge, I knew that car was driven by Officer Tippit, and that that car was assigned to his district.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you a location?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; 400 block of East 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I told my partner we were not doing much good here, to go to Oak Cliff, and see if we could help out over there, try to apprehend the person that shot Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go in Oak Cliff?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, we got in the car and went underneath the triple underpass and got on the Stemmons Expressway, which leads into the R. L. Thornton Expressway. I believe we took the Jefferson exit and drove up to the 400 block of East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Patton is about a block to the north of Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. Patton runs across Jefferson. Tenth and Patton.

Mr. BALL. Patton runs north and south?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is a block north of Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go to the 400 block on Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD. I was stopped by other officers there. They wanted to search a house. So I relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors search this house, in the 400 block of East Jefferson. Then I went around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car.

Mr. BALL. And did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain place?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a suspect was seen running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. You went down there?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I went directly to Denver Street, which is an alley at that point. It is still designated as Denver Street. I parked the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the library outside. They came out with their hands up.

The boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell the people that the President had been shot. He was a much younger person than what was broadcast on description on the radio.

Mr. BALL. You had heard a broadcast?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Of a description, of someone to look for?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27 years old, 5 foot 10, weight about 145 pounds, wearing light clothing.

Mr. BALL. When did you hear that? About what time?

Mr. McDONALD. It came out on the radio as I was coming to Oak Cliff. There was another general description given on the way to the Texas School Book Depository at Elm and Houston Streets. But it was a vague description.

Mr. BALL. The first description that you heard of a man to look for was on the way downtown to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that description?

Mr. McDONALD. White male, approximately 27, 29 years old, and he had a white shirt on, weighed about 160 pounds.

Mr. BALL. And that was about 12:40 you got that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this later description you got was what point in your travel to Oak Cliff?

Mr. McDONALD. This was approximately 1:20, or 1:17.

Mr. BALL. That was after you had heard that Tippit--that the officer had been shot?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what was that description?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, it was 5 foot 10, white male, 27 years old, wearing a white shirt.

Mr. BALL. Now, as you were cruising the alleys, you had gone into the library basement, and gone to cruising the alleys, did you hear something else over the radio that drew your attention to another part----

Mr. McDONALD. Just to report to the public library.

Mr. BALL. After that. Did you receive a report?

Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that this teenager that had run into the library didn't fit the description, I went back to my squad car, put my shotgun back in the rack. Just as I got into the squad car, it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the Texas Theatre, 231 West Jefferson.

So I reported to that location Code 3. This is approximately seven blocks from the library, seven blocks west.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there with your partner?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I had let my partner out on arrival; my first arrival in the 400 block.

Mr. BALL. He was on foot?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I didn't see him any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You went down to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that is what address?

Mr. McDONALD. 231 West Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, when I got to the front of the theater there was several police cars already at the scene, and I surmised that officers were already inside the theater.

So I decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. I parked my squad car. I noticed there were three or four other officers standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. There were three other officers at the rear door. I joined them. We walked into the rear exit door over the alley.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. McDONALD. Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. And as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats, and not in the balcony. He was sitting at the rear of the theater alone.

Officer Walker and I went to the exit curtains that is to the left of the movie screen. I looked into the audience. I saw the person that the shoe store salesman had pointed out to us.

Mr. BALL. Were the lights on or off?

Mr. McDONALD. The lights were up, and the movie was playing at this time.

Mr. BALL. And could you see to the rear of the theater?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see the man. Did the civilian point out to you the man in one of the rear seats?

Mr. McDONALD. He didn't point out personally. He was pointing out the suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just right of the movie screen.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, after seeing him, I noticed the other people in the theater--there was approximately 10 or 15 other people seated throughout the theater. There were two men sitting in the center, about 10 rows from the front.

I walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, and Officer C. T. Walker was behind me. When I got to these two men, I told them to get on their feet. They got up. I searched them for a weapon.

I looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. He remained seated without moving, just looking at me.

Mr. BALL. Why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater?

Mr. McDONALD. I wanted to make sure that I didn't pass anything or miss anybody. I wanted to make sure I didn't overlook anybody or anything.

Mr. BALL. And you still kept your eye on the suspect?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was to my back. I was looking over my shoulder at him.

Mr. BALL. Was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you came in?

Mr. McDONALD. The right center aisle. He was in the second seat.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. McDONALD. After I was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, I walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect. And as I walked up there, just at a normal gait, I didn't look directly at him, but I kept my eye on him and any other persons. And to my left was another man and I believe a woman was with him. But he was further back than the suspect.

And just as I got to the row where the suspect was sitting, I stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. He rose immediately, bringing up both hands. He got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. He said, "Well, it is all over now."

As he said this, I put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. And this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose.

Mr. BALL. Did he cock his fist?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; knocking my cap off.

Mr. BALL. Which fist did he hit you with?

Mr. McDONALD. His left fist.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction was for me to go at him with this hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes. I went at him with this hand, and I believe I struck him on the face, but I don't know where. And with my hand, that was on his hand over the pistol.

Mr. BALL. Did you feel the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. His right hand was on the pistol.

Mr. BALL. And which of your hands?

Mr. McDONALD. My left hand, at this point.

Mr. BALL. And had he withdrawn the pistol----

Mr. McDONALD. He was drawing it as I put my hand.

Mr. BALL. From his waist?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats. While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun----

Mr. BALL. Your left hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the action also.

Mr. BALL. Your right hand?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the front.

By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.

Mr. BALL. Had you felt any movement of the hammer?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.

Mr. BALL. When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?

Mr. McDONALD. It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know any way it was pointed?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would have to be the cylinder or the hammer.

Mr. BALL. Across your left palm?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. And my hand was directly over the pistol in this manner. More or less the butt. But not on the butt.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you jerked the pistol free?

Mr. McDONALD. When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.

Mr. BALL. Grazed your left cheek?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Scratched--noticeable scratch?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; about a 4-inch scratch just above the eye to just above the lip.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, the officers that had come to my aid started handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater.

Mr. BALL. What did he say--anything?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police brutality, for one thing.

Mr. BALL. What words did he use?

Mr. McDONALD. I couldn't recall the exact words. It was just mixed up words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested.

Mr. BALL. What did he say about police brutality?

Mr. McDONALD. One thing, "Don't hit me any more." I remember that.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody hit him?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I guess they did.

Mr. BALL. Who hit him, do you know?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I don't, other than myself.

Mr. BALL. You know you hit him?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go with them outside?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. McDONALD. I was looking for my hat and flashlight.

Mr. BALL. Did you go downtown with them?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later you went downtown?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you put a mark on the revolver?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six rounds in the cylinder?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. McDONALD. I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not that strong of an indentation.

Mr. BALL. We have here Exhibit 143 for identification. Do you know whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; this is it. I found the mark here.

Mr. BALL. You found your mark?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What mark is it?

Mr. McDONALD. I marked the initial "M".

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. McDONALD. Right here, on this steel plate.

Mr. BALL. Of the butt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt.

Mr. BALL. How many cartridges were in the cylinder?

Mr. McDONALD. Six, fully loaded.

Mr. BALL. I will show you four that are marked as--we will give these four an exhibit number. Do you know whether or not they were shells similar to that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were .38 caliber. Now, I didn't mark all of these shells, myself.

Mr. BALL. Did you mark any of them?

Mr. McDONALD. I recall marking one.

Mr. BALL. The four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will mark collectively as Commission Exhibit 518.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 518 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145, consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge with a dent in it?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How can you tell this?

Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this--of the primer there--it is a small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished.

Mr. BALL. And your mark is on one of these cartridges?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you an Exhibit 519.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 519 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that a picture of the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And can you mark on there the seat in which the man was seated who was the suspect?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Put an arrow down to that seat. Did you see Oswald later that evening?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you saw Oswald, was he bloody any?

Mr. McDONALD. Afterwards?

Mr. BALL. Well, when he was being taken from the theatre. Was he bloody?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I didn't see any blood.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McDONALD. Because whenever they took him, they took him directly out.

Mr. BALL. And you never saw him again?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time?

Mr. McDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a T-shirt and dark trousers.

Mr. BALL. A dark brown shirt, a T-shirt, and dark trousers?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission 150. Does that look anything like the color of the shirt he was wearing?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to 519 in evidence.

Senator COOPER. They will be admitted in evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 518 and 519 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's person?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. It was under his right waist band, right side.

Mr. BALL. Was it under the shirt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt.

Mr. BALL. Underneath the shirt?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, and say it was underneath the brown shirt that he had on. Not underneath the T-shirt.

The CHAIRMAN. It was not in a holster?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; no holster at all.

Mr. BALL. Were--was there an FBI agent there?

Mr. McDONALD. I don't know, sir. I was told he was there, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. The only people that you saw were----

Mr. McDONALD. The ones I named there.

Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department men?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. Who was it that pointed out to you the suspect when you entered the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. I learned his name later.

Senator COOPER. Did some person there point out to you, though, this man sitting in the row whom you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. He was a shoestore salesman. His name was Brewer. He was the one that met us at the rear exit door and said that he saw this person run into the Texas Theatre.

Senator COOPER. Did you hear him say that?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. And have you seen him since?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. But somebody has identified him to you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will examine him next week, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask--if the suspect was pointed out to you, why was it you did not go directly to him, but you searched other persons?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, usually on information of that sort, you have to weigh it a little bit to make sure you get the right person. He could have been mistaken. If a suspect was in that theatre, I wanted to make sure I got him, and not overlook him.

Senator COOPER. You said, though, that before you went into the theatre, where the seats were located, that a man pointed out to you a person who he claimed was the suspect.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; he said that that was the man that had acted suspiciously in running into the theatre.

Senator COOPER. That was the man that was identified to you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then, if he was the man identified to you, why did you stop and search these two men before you got to the man you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, I wanted to make sure he was right.

Senator COOPER. Was it your purpose to search everybody in there?

Mr. McDONALD. It was my intention--everybody I came to.

Senator COOPER. Were these the first two that you did search?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were the closest ones to me.

Senator COOPER. They were sitting in front of the man you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were sitting about 10 rows in front of him.

Senator COOPER. At the time you were searching them, you could see the other man that you later arrested?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What did he do?

Mr. McDONALD. Just sat in his seat, with his hands in his lap, watching me.

Senator COOPER. Were there any other police officers in his vicinity?

Mr. McDONALD. There were police officers in the balcony, and police officers in the aisle, or in the lobby, you might call it--not in the theatre, except for the other three that I named.

Senator COOPER. You are the only one in the theatre?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, there was the other three officers that accompanied me through the rear exit door. Officer Walker went through the curtains with me, and Officers Hawkins and Hutson was on the stage with the man that was identifying the suspect.

Senator COOPER. Then when you told the man you arrested to stand up did he immediately pull his pistol out?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; he stood up and started raising his hands, "Well, it is all over now." But in my opinion, it was an act of giving up or surrendering. It was just natural that my hand went to his waist for a weapon, which was my intent anyway, whether he raised his hands or not. I didn't command him to raise his hands or anything. It was just a reaction of his.

Senator COOPER. Did he hit you with the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he point it towards you?

Mr. McDONALD. I don't know what position the gun was pointed out, whenever my hand was on it, because we were both grappling around there. But, as I say, the top of my hand was over on top of the pistol.

Senator COOPER. To whom did you turn over the possession of the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Detective Bob Carroll. He had come into the aisle. Whenever I hollered, "I got him" immediately I was swarmed by officers.

Senator COOPER. Did you mark the pistol at that time before you turned it over?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I marked it at the police station.

Senator COOPER. But you recognized it then as the same pistol you had identified today?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Officer, you were in uniform that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the blow he gave you on your nose leave any mark?

Mr. McDONALD. Well, for 2 days I had some swelling. It didn't break the skin or anything. Some of the force was taken by my top. It hit the bill of my cap and my nose.

The CHAIRMAN. And the scratch from the corner of your eye down to the corner of your mouth came from the pistol?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. As I was taking the pistol away, clearing it from his body. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. We are very glad you are able to be with us today.

Mr. BALL. There is one thing.

I have marked an exhibit, 520.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 520 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. As he said he had not seen Oswald since, and I know this was taken--but I would like to ask him one question with reference to 520 for identification, and we will later provide an identification, proper identification for it.

Does that look like the man that you arrested in the Texas Theatre that day?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it look like--well, of course, he had a shirt over that T-shirt.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, officer. We are glad you were able to be with us.

(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, March 26, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM, WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS, MRS. JEANETTE DAVIS, AND TED CALLAWAY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 26, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN MARKHAM

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the session of the Commission is for the purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of President Kennedy, and it is our information that you have some evidence concerning it and we want to ask you some questions concerning it. You are willing to testify, are you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Do all I can.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Will you stand up and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Mr. Ball will ask you the questions.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, what is your address?

Mrs. MARKHAM. 328 East Ninth.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Where was I born? Dallas.

Mr. BALL. The Commission would like to know something of your past life and experience, where you were born and your education so I will just ask you a few questions like that.

Take it easy, this is just----

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am very shook up.

Mr. BALL. This is a very informal little conference here.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, do you want me to tell you about my life?

Mr. BALL. Yes. Just tell us briefly where you were born and where you went to school and things of that kind.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was born in Dallas, Dallas County. My father was a farmer. I was very small when my mother died, I was 6 years old; and my brothers and I were separated which they were put in the State orphans home, and I went to live with my aunt.

Mr. DULLES. Are your brothers older or younger?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one older than I. And I went to live with my aunt and uncle in Grand Prairie. I went to Grand Prairie school.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I got married. I got married.

Mr. BALL. How long were you married?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Me----

Mr. BALL. I understand you are not married at the present time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I am not married. I would have been married 25 years this past July.

Mr. BALL. Were you a housewife for a while while you were married?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was.

Mr. BALL. How many years?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me see, about 8 years.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any children?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. How many children did you have?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I have five children.

Mr. BALL. Do they live with you now or what?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have one son who stays with me.

Mr. BALL. What has been your work most of your life since you were divorced, what kind of work have you done?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Waitress work.

Mr. BALL. You have done waitress work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Eat Well Restaurant, 1404 Main Street, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you working there on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was.

Mr. BALL. What hours did you work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was due at work from 2:30 in the evening until 10:30 at night.

Mr. BALL. Straight shift?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That evening?

Mr. BALL. Morning.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That morning?

Mr. BALL. You left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day?

Mrs. MARKHAM. At one.

Mr. BALL. One o'clock?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it was a little after 1.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to catch the bus?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On Patton and Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Patton and Jefferson is about a block south of Patton and 10th Street, isn't it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I think so.

Mr. BALL. Well, where is your home from Patton and Jefferson?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I had came--I come one block, I had come one block from my home.

Mr. BALL. You were walking, were you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I came from 9th to the corner of 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. And you were walking toward Jefferson?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tenth Street runs the same direction as Jefferson, doesn't it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It runs in a generally east and west direction?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Patton runs north and south?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; up and down this way.

Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.

Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.

Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street----

Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.

Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.

Mr. BALL. Your right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.

Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.

Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.

Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.

Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.

Mr. BALL. To your left?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.

Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.

Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.

Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.

Mr. BALL. He put his arms on the window ledge?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The window was down.

Mr. BALL. It was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Put his arms on the window ledge?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On the ledge of the window.

Mr. BALL. And the policeman was sitting where?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On the driver's side.

Mr. BALL. He was sitting behind the wheel?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he alone in the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and I thought friendly conversation. Well, I looked, and there were cars coming, so I had to wait. Well, in a few minutes this man made----

Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. See the policeman? Well, this man, like I told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he--just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. Mr. Tippit----

Mr. BALL. The policeman?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and I still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, I did not know; well, just as the policeman got in----

Mr. BALL. Which way did he walk?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards the front of the car. And just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side----

Mr. BALL. You mean the left front wheel?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; this man shot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. You heard the shots, did you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.

Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.

Mr. BALL. What did the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.

Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.

Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and I opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Did you yell at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I pulled my fingers down where I could see, I got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then I ran to the policeman.

Mr. BALL. Before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he stared at me.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't do anything. I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Didn't you say something?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Or yell or scream?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I could not. I could not say nothing.

Mr. BALL. You looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He looked wild. I mean, well, he did to me.

Mr. BALL. And you say you saw him fooling with his gun?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in his hands.

Mr. BALL. Did you see what he was doing with it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just fooling with it. I didn't know what he was doing. I was afraid he was fixing to kill me.

Mr. BALL. How far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I wasn't too far.

Mr. BALL. Can you estimate it in feet? Don't guess.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I would just be afraid to say how many feet because I am a bad judgment on that.

Mr. BALL. When you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the corner, you were standing on one corner, were you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he standing with reference to the other corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot----

Mr. BALL. When he looked at you.

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he had shot the policeman?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from the curb, from the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Across the street from you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he look at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you look at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I sure did.

Mr. BALL. That was before you put your hands over your eyes?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and I slapped my hands up to my face like this.

Mr. BALL. And then you ran to the policeman?

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he ran off.

Mr. BALL. In what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired the shots?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir, I believe it was his right. I am not positive because I was scared.

Mr. BALL. When he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he have his gun?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had it in both of them.

Mr. BALL. He had it in both of them?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he went towards Jefferson you say he went at sort of a trot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Were there many other, or other people in the block at that time, or were you there with Officer Tippit almost alone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was out there, I didn't see anybody. I was there alone by myself.

Mr. DULLES. I see. You didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; not until everything was over--I never seen anybody until I was at Mr. Tippit's side. I tried to save his life, which was I didn't know at that time I couldn't do something for him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Tippit, Officer Tippit, didn't say anything to you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He tried to.

Mr. DULLES. He tried to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. But he didn't succeed?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I couldn't understand. I was screaming and hollering and I was trying to help him all I could, and I would have. I was with him until they put him in the ambulance.

Mr. BALL. Did you make an estimate of how far you were from this man with the gun when he came--after the shooting, and when he came down to the corner, did you make an estimate of that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. To anyone----

Mr. BALL. We measured it the other day. We were out there, weren't we?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now I couldn't tell you how many feet or nothing because I have never had no occasions to measure that.

Mr. DULLES. Was it further than this table, the length of this table?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was across the street.

Mr. DULLES. Across the street. It was two or three times the length of this table?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Across from the street. That was too close.

Mr. BALL. We have a map coming from the FBI. We thought it would be here this morning.

Mrs. Markham, you were taken to the Police Department, weren't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Immediately.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later that day they had a showup you went to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. A lineup?

Mr. BALL. A lineup.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many men were in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe there were, now I am not positive, I believe there were three besides this man.

Mr. BALL. That would be four people altogether?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe that is correct.

Mr. BALL. Were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, they were all about the same height.

Mr. BALL. Who were you in the lineup room with?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Who was I in the room where they had this man?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Policemen.

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The room was full.

Mr. BALL. It was. In this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. Weren't there just one or two men with you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. One or two with me, but I don't know who they were.

Mr. BALL. But there were other officers?

Mrs. MARKHAM. There were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and aside of me.

Mr. BALL. In this room?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. They were doing something.

Mr. BALL. Before you went into this room were you shown a picture of anyone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was not.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any television?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not.

Mr. BALL. Did a police officer say anything to you before you went in there, to tell you----

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That he thought "We had the right man," or something of that sort? Anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. No statement like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before--did you recognize anybody from their face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.

Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. BALL. No one of the four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.

Mr. BALL. No one of all four?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a number two man in there?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two is the one I picked.

Mr. BALL. Well, I thought you just told me that you hadn't----

Mrs. MARKHAM. I thought you wanted me to describe their clothing.

Mr. BALL. No. I wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there----

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two.

Mr. BALL. What did you say when you saw number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, let me tell you. I said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. I said, number two. When I said number two, I just got weak.

Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

Mr. BALL. You recognized him from his appearance?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I asked--I looked at him. When I saw this man I wasn't sure, but I had cold chills just run all over me.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When I saw the man. But I wasn't sure, so, you see, I told them I wanted to be sure, and looked at his face is what I was looking at, mostly is what I looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. So I asked them if they would turn him sideways. They did, and then they turned him back around, and I said the second, and they said, which one, and I said number two. So when I said that, well, I just kind of fell over. Everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and I don't know, just----

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize him from his clothing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. I looked at his clothing, but I looked at his face, too.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you saw shoot the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had these dark trousers on.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or a shirt? The man that you saw shoot Officer Tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had a jacket on when he done it.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup have a jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember that.

Mr. BALL. Did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have any jacket on when he was in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light shirt and dark trousers.

(Representative Ford is now in the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Mostly from his face.

Mr. BALL. Were you sure it was the same man you had seen before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am sure.

Mr. BALL. Now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I would say it was four, a little after.

Mr. BALL. That was four in the afternoon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was so upset I couldn't even tell you the time. In fact, I wasn't interested in the time.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. Can you give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? I realize that is a very vague question.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. He looked wild. They were glassy looking, because I could see----

Mr. DULLES. He had no glasses on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. When we looked at each other, he just stared, just like that. I just don't know. I just seen him--I would know the man anywhere, I know I would.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit, Commission Exhibit 162, a jacket. Did you ever see this before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is short, open down the front. But that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, I know it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't think it was as light a jacket as that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, it was darker than that, I know it was. At that moment I was so excited----

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt here, which is Exhibit 150. Did you ever see a shirt the color of this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that.

Mr. BALL. The man who shot Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I think it was lighter.

Mr. BALL. All right. I have some pictures here that I would like to show you. I have Exhibits 521 and 522, which have been marked as Exhibits. Here is one picture, 521. Do you recognize that as the sign down?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is the corner of Patton and 10th.

Mr. BALL. Patton and 10th.

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is on the corner of Patton and 10th.

Mr. BALL. Yes. Was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was.

Mr. BALL. After the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, take this pen and put an X as to the point when he looked at you and you looked at him.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was right along here.

Mr. BALL. Put an X.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know. I am too nervous.

Mr. BALL. At the time the man was standing at X in this picture, at this location, which is shown in 521, where were you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this.

Mr. BALL. Were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I was.

Mr. DULLES. Where was the car, where this car is?

Mr. BALL. No, I have another picture I will show her. I have here Exhibit 522; do you recognize the white house in the picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the driveway next to it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that show the location of the police car at the time it stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. That is the big old white house, 404.

Mrs. BALL. That is right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. 10th Street, and this driveway and this house.

Mr. DULLES. Will you give us an idea, Mr. Ball, as to where she said she was on this picture? Was she over here?

Mr. BALL. We have a picture. There is a booklet here that has been prepared by a succession of witnesses. We have a general diagram here which I will show the witness at this time.

Mrs. Markham, there is a diagram here which shows 10th Street going in an easterly and westerly direction, Patton running north and south.

(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 523 for identification.)

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you understand that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This would be the corner I would be at.

Mr. BALL. No, this would be Patton. This is north and south. Jefferson is down here. Can you locate yourself?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This is 10th?

Mr. BALL. That is 10th.

Mrs. MARKHAM. And this Patton?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the corner of 10th and Patton.

Mr. BALL. That is right. But which corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Northeast corner is where I was standing.

Mr. BALL. Northeast or northwest? This would be northeast and this would be northwest. Here is where the squad car would be. Right there. Here is 404.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this corner then.

Mr. BALL. Well, that is northeast and that is northwest. Were you kitty-cornered?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was kitty-cornered from it like this.

Mr. BALL. Like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast, southwest, and here is the car. We are going down the street now.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It would be this--that would be on the opposite side.

Mr. BALL. That is right. Look at a number on that and tell me where you were standing.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing right at the curb.

Mr. BALL. Do you see a number?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Number 5.

Mr. BALL. Number 5 on this diagram would be indicating the place where you would be standing, is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing on the opposite corner from that.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I have got to get you to tell me where you were standing. Picture yourself going down Patton towards Jefferson.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Going down Patton?

Mr. BALL. You were coming from this direction. Your home was up here.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was coming down Patton. It would be this corner.

Mr. BALL. That corner, all right. Take this pen and show your course down the sidewalk.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just draw it right on it?

Mr. BALL. Down to where you stood.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on the edge.

Mr. BALL. Is there a number there that shows where you were?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Near 5, is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That is the northwest corner?

Mr. BALL. Northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. Here is a picture. Do you recognize that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is picture number 3 in the booklet. Does that show where you were?

(Marked Commission Exhibit No. 524 for identification.)

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the man shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark where you first saw him. Mark that A. Then he went which direction down the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He went this way.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then put an arrow showing what direction.

Mrs. MARKHAM. From here----

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side.

Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was the man when you looked at him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way.

Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you standing when he was looking at you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position.

Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, together with the picture which illustrates the diagram.

The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers?

Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I think this will explain it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you recognize this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It shows a corner.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came back and looked at you.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this.

Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525. The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting until the time you saw the man on the corner?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it again.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you heard?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his hands on the window----

Mr. DULLES. The window was open?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this.

Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or where the driver was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps.

Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit----

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.

Mr. DULLES. And what happened?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, that man shot him.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything of that kind?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood.

Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around to the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where Oswald was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around.

Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the front of the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the man.

Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He didn't fall, just clumped down like that.

Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the officer started to go around the car?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like that, no, sir.

Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had I would have kept walking, not walking, running.

Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was.

Mr. DULLES. Slow?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit 527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way.

Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere near where Tippit fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell this way.

Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right this way. He fell this way.

Mr. BALL. Into the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying like this.

Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of blood?

Mr. BALL. Out to the left.

Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here.

Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners.

Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems his hat was this way.

Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the most?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? Did you actually see blood?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there.

Mr. DULLES. I know you were there.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it.

Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was here, coming out here.

Representative FORD. The blood was?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this time, up to 526, inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I must attend a session of the Court.

Mr. DULLES. I will, sir.

(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him.

Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman.

Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And caught up with him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from New York?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this Commission, page 51. This is what he said:

"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100 feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit."

Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.

Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy.

Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something. What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair.

Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I never talked to nobody.

Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other means?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a person who asked you these questions?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows:

"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers."

Did you ever make that statement to him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody.

Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing.

Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too.

Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a gray jacket on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers.

Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you, on this point?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek.

Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say you talked with someone who came from France?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but my boss could.

Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody. I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so long.

Mr. DULLES. When was that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date.

Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after.

Mr. DULLES. Some time after?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. Can you describe this man?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of----

Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me.

Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set?

Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the man.

Representative FORD. Did he have an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did.

Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because of this accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me.

Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him.

Representative FORD. Did he identify which government?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American citizen?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me.

Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they did not.

Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and answers?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it.

Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess.

(A short recess was taken.)

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.

Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did look at his feet.

Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking.

Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was black-haired. I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. Red complexion?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned.

Mr. BALL. You didn't say that?

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one other?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. Life magazine?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life magazine.

Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in.

Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two.

Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just those two?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately over to where the police officer was lying in the street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Was he alive?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't make out what he was trying to say.

Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.

Mr. BALL. Soon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.

Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember it the way it took off.

Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.

Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to get help, begging for somebody to help me.

Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was standing and screamed plumb across the street.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said?

Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, really it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't remember----

Mr. BALL. The taxicab driver.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I saw the taxicab driver.

Mr. BALL. Where was the taxicab?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Parked on Patton.

Mr. BALL. On Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the man later, did you see him before the shooting?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he was sitting in his cab.

Mr. BALL. He was. Then you saw him afterward, didn't you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Those are all the questions I have of this witness. Do you have something additional?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Believe me, it was just like----

Mr. DULLES. I believe Mr. Ford would like to have the witness repeat what she saw the man, now known as Oswald, do after the shooting. Will you just repeat that for Congressman Ford?

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman----

Mr. DULLES. After he shot the policeman.

Mrs. MARKHAM. After he shot the policeman he turned around, came back around toward Patton Street. He wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no hurry. I thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops.

Mr. DULLES. He stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. When he saw me. That is the reason we were looking at each other.

Mr. DULLES. He hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because I knew he was going to kill me. I couldn't scream, I couldn't holler. I froze.

Mr. DULLES. I think you testified about that then he began to run slowly.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Then----

Mr. DULLES. Was that after he saw you?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; after I put my hands up, and when I had opened my fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off.

Mr. DULLES. Trotting off?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He wasn't out of sight when I started running to this police car. He was not out of sight.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; he cut across like this, across Patton, and went out like that.

Mr. DULLES. Like this means to the right or to the left?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It means to the right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. To his right, to the man's right, as he was running?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He ran back, turned and came back down 10th to Patton Street. He cut across Patton Street like this.

Mr. BELIN. Heading toward what street?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Toward Jefferson; yes, sir. Then he was still in sight when I began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to Mr. Tippit.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. Are there any more questions?

You can be excused, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have any questions you would like to ask, Mr. Attorney General?

Mr. CARR. No; I have not.

Mr. DULLES. Could you wait for just a moment. We are sorry to detain you. There is something that might come up with the next witness, and we might wish to ask you another question. I do not think we will. We are very grateful to you, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit previously marked "533," which is the squad car, Tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, I would like to have marked as "Exhibit 527." It was marked by mistake.

Mr. DULLES. Is that our last exhibit?

Mr. BALL. That is our last exhibit, 527 is our last exhibit now.

(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 527 was received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. You might stand for just a moment, Mr. Scoggins. The witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this Commission.

Do you swear, Mr. Scoggins, that the testimony that you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. SCOGGINS. To the best of my knowledge; yes.

Mr. DULLES. Be seated, please.

Mr. Scoggins, the Commission is taking testimony, and the Chief Justice asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the Court this morning.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this morning.

Will you proceed?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin is going to examine this witness.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the Commission.

Will you proceed please?

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. SCOGGINS

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the record.

Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska.

Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Co. I drive out of Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of my schooling was down in McLennan County.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to work?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job.

Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City.

Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After I left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed there 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. CCC camp?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas.

The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, and then I moved to Dallas.

I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there approximately 15-1/2 years, and then I have been working for the company, taxicab company, for a couple of years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years?

Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at 321 North Ewing.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is 125 Patton.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke.

So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.

Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.

Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a police car cruising east there on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the intersection of Patton and 10th?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop sign had been.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or the west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or the south side of the intersection?

Mr. SCOGGINS. South side.

Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying there, it had been bent over.

Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you happen to be stopped there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, and that is what I had done.

Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for calls?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, they give us the address, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right here, you see, on 10th.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of the picture. What is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over.

Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton.

Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also Exhibit 528.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, Exhibit 523, which would indicate the approximate location of your car during the period that you are describing here?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10.

Mr. BELIN. You are not pointing to number 10.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it?

Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9.

Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11.

Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area.

Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523.

Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east on east Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.

Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.

Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?

Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.

Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way.

Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my eating, and about that time I heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.

Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.

Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, and I started to get out--since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab--he would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see where he fell?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a little bit forward of the door, right about the door.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the officer fell?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up by the time I got there, the ambulance did.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your dispatcher over your radio contact?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and then they went to talking to me then.

Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come on right around there.

Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you estimate?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty close.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you had ever seen before.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from the officer.

Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or is it any different, if you know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than that.

Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529, which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit 527, or does that look to be about the same place?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there does.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the front?

Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any way?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward.

Mr. BELIN. He fell forward?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, if you know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a crumpled manner, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the officer fall, the other man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his face, his features and everything plain, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting.

Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first.

Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing anything with the pistol or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved back in here.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't.

Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or "poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered that twice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any.

Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various people at this time; is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, yes; I was over there----

Mr. BELIN. And you parked your cab in what spot?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There on Patton, facing 10th at approximately the place I thought I was parked at, the reasonable area where I thought I was. I wouldn't say I was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so.

Mr. BELIN. Does Exhibit 530 appear to be a picture of your cab at that point?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I also hand you Commission Exhibit 531 and ask you if there is another view of your cab also at that same point?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; it appears to be.

Mr. BELIN. You were there when those two pictures were taken?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; I was there whenever they took some picture. I couldn't swear these were the ones, but I imagine it was.

Mr. BELIN. These are pictures numbered 7 and 22 in that sequence there. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of November 22, 1963, were there as many cars parked along Patton Street as appear to be in these Exhibits 530 and 531?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many on this side here.

Mr. BELIN. You are speaking now when you say "This side here," you are pointing to the east or west side of the street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. On the west side.

Mr. BELIN. There weren't as many on the west side?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is setting here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be down below the second or third car south of East 10th, is that right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the only place I could found is here is the reason I come up here and parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and I would have taken the first parking place I found because, you know, the closest to the club.

Mr. DULLES. As far as you know, there were no people in these cars that were parked there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; there was no one in those cars.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of Patton Street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. None.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you Exhibit 162, have you ever seen any jacket on any person in that area of East 10th and Patton that looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look familiar all right, the type of sleeve. He had on a jacket, the type of sleeve of that, but I thought it was a little darker.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or don't you----

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The best I can remember they was dark, not too dark, and he had on a light shirt.

Mr. BELIN. A light shirt?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say it was white, but----

Mr. BELIN. Would the shirt be lighter than Exhibit 150 or about the same color or darker or would Exhibit 150 look anything like the shirt you thought he was wearing, if you know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I don't, so I couldn't answer that.

Mr. BELIN. And you say you don't know, or you think this is different than what he was wearing?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't say about the shirt.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I just couldn't.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you were in Dallas the other day and they took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car windows toward the place where the car of Officer Tippit was parked, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the car of Officer Tippit was parked on November 22d?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was parked approximately between the first and second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well across the driveway.

Mr. BELIN. Was it parked across a driveway?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. As well as I remember, it was.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Exhibit 522, which purports to be a picture taken of a squad car, and I don't know if you can see through the window a little driveway----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the squad car was parked?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the two houses between which the driveway ran?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. This would be the two houses--and the other one I didn't know.

Mr. BELIN. We have a magnifying glass here, and I believe with it we might be able to see the number on that house. Can you see the number over the doorway of that house?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 404.

Mr. BELIN. That would be which street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That would be on East 10th, on the south side.

Mr. BELIN. This appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position of the car on November 22?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the approximate position; I would say it was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked Exhibit 532, do you remember when this picture was taken?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember the day. I don't remember the date of it.

Mr. BELIN. But you remember it was taken?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember it was taken.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime in March of this year?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the photographer point the camera through the window?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is this about the view that you had toward the police car on November 22d?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. As you were eating your lunch?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And it appears that you can see through one of the windows there the police car, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was the police car at the time Exhibit 532 was taken, was it in the approximate same position that the car of Officer Tippit was on November 22?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think so, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you saw the police car there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was it parked about in front of that driveway?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I would say in the same area. You know, it may not be on the same inch.

Mr. BELIN. Within a foot or two?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would take Exhibit 523 and see if there is any number on Exhibit 523 which corresponds to the position of the man who was walking along East 10th Street, or wherever he was when you first saw him.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately where 16 is.

Mr. BELIN. Yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in number 16?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin, he didn't see him walking.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him there.

Mr. BELIN. I used the word "walking." Pardon me. When you first saw him he was on point 16. Where did you see him when you next saw him, where did you see him when he moved?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I next saw him he was in the process of running up 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. You next saw him after the shooting then?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. About where was he on 10th Street when you next saw him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was on the sidewalk when I saw him, about, I would say, about--I am trying to figure out now--about number 21 or back a little piece from 21.

Mr. BELIN. Here is the squad car and 21 would be just east of the squad car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing when you saw him in the area of 21 in Exhibit 523?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was proceeding west on 10th and had----

Mr. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would just take this pen and on Exhibit 523 mark the route that you think this man took.

Mr. SCOGGINS. This is a sidewalk here.

Mr. BELIN. That is the sidewalk.

Mr. SCOGGINS. This is the house back here.

Mr. BELIN. This is the corner house, this is the second house, this is the third house, 400, 404, and 410.

Mr. DULLES. What does that line show, Mr. Belin?

Mr. BELIN. This is to show the movement of the man from point 21.

Mr. DULLES. Along the sidewalk going west?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. SCOGGINS. He ran to the point in the shrubbery.

Mr. BELIN. Is that as far as you have seen him go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You have now marked by ink line commencing on Exhibit 523 to a point that I will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man take. Where were you when you saw him take this route?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him coming, you see, over here, I got out of my cab and I started to cross the street to find a place to get behind, and I got midway across the street, and then I got back and hid behind the cab. I didn't see him in here, but I saw him when he hit the shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery.

Mr. BELIN. There is an opening in part of that shrubbery?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, and I heard that when he hit that, and he was looking over his left shoulder at that time. I first saw him and then I got out----

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would show us on Exhibit 531, if you would put an X there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man.

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him?

Mr. BELIN. No; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him.

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was sitting inside my cab when I first saw him.

Mr. BELIN. I mean after the shooting.

Mr. SCOGGINS. After the shooting I guess when I first saw him, right along about here.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your car, and we are going to put a letter "A" with an arrow there. Where were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was back there beside my cab.

Mr. BELIN. You were still at that same point?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, when I first saw him I left the cab and I went out to the middle of the street.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him and he was at the point you marked, position 21 here on Exhibit 523?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Here.

Mr. BELIN. At point "A." Then you went to the--you went out to the street, in the street, and came back to point "A" on Exhibit 531--were you standing or were you crouched?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of crouched down behind the cab.

Mr. BELIN. All right. How did you see him if you were crouched?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, whenever he run through those bushes I looked up again, you see.

Mr. BELIN. You looked through your cab window?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him--whenever I heard him hit those bushes----

Mr. BELIN. Did you stand or just look through your cab window?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I just looked and saw he was going down there.

Mr. BELIN. About how close was this man to you when you saw him, the closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, I would say from here to that chair down there.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. SCOGGINS. About that chair down there.

Mr. BELIN. 12 feet?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Referring to your tracing of the path that the man later found to be Oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two bushes there, did he? He went right through it?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. You see there is an opening in there.

Mr. DULLES. But he didn't apparently take the opening, according to this, because he went right through the bushes.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, because I didn't see any opening in there. Was there an opening in there?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, for the record, when you are referring to 523, there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery itself there is an opening, and I think it will appear if you----

Mr. DULLES. I think the witness testified he heard the bushes move.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Yes. But the opening within the bushes, is it a large opening or a small opening between the bushes?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not too large, but a man can get through very easily by going through.

Mr. DULLES. But he hits the bushes as he goes through?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I see. That makes it clear.

Mr. BELIN. It is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes.

Mr. DULLES. It is not quite as wide.

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is an opening between the bushes themselves, like maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died to break the shrubbery.

Mr. DULLES. That has happened to me.

Mr. BELIN. What I am saying, Mr. Dulles, on Exhibit 523 there are two groups of bushes. Within the lower group of bushes there is a slight space to which the witness is referring.

Mr. DULLES. I see. It is not the space here.

Mr. BELIN. It is not the space between the two sets of bushes.

Mr. DULLES. At this point do you recall whether he was running or walking or what pace was he going at?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was going at a kind of lope.

Mr. DULLES. Lope?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, what you might call a little trot. He did not seem in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point that you let the line stop at on Exhibit 523, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. That would be in the approximate location.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got on my radio.

Mr. BELIN. And then you told us about calling your dispatcher?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. SCOGGINS. And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if we can find him."

Mr. DULLES. Before you ask the next question, I wonder if I can ask one question here. Do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of the message you sent?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.

Mr. DULLES. You do not know?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. DULLES. From the time angle, do you think that could have happened?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was awful fast if it did. They got there awfully quickly if they did.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know of any other warning going in; you put your warning in, and that is all you know about it?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is all I know about it at that time, and I do know this other gentleman called after I got up to the car, he called in, and they told him it had already been.

(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the street?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was on the street whenever I saw it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?"

Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still thought he was connected with the police department in some way.

Mr. BELIN. What route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. You can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I was doing the driving and he was doing the directing.

Mr. BELIN. He directed you where to go?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually, I couldn't say where he was going.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Representative FORD. Were you in your cab?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. When you saw the pistol it wasn't in Officer Tippit's hands?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as far as I know.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him when he was falling?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was holding his stomach.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him holding his stomach as he fell?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. SCOGGINS. If he did I couldn't see it, and I don't think he ever got to his pistol from what I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he was going to the west on--up 10th Street at all after the shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. After you went around to look for the man, did you find him at all?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. We drove around and asked several people, but we did not see anybody that looked like him.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, by that time there was more policemen there than you can shake a stick at. They were all over that place, and we stopped the cab.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time, do you know offhand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when I found out he wasn't an officer.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened, or what did you do?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he said, "Well, why didn't you?" I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked with everybody else."

So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen the day before.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this question. First of all, do you remember, or can you describe the man you saw on November 22 with the gun?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender look, and approximately, I said 25, 26 years old, somewhere along there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was light; let's see, was it light or not--medium brown, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Medium brown, I would say--now, wait a minute. Now, medium brown or dark.

Mr. BELIN. Medium brown or dark hair?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a Negro or a white man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. White, light complected, not real brown.

Mr. BELIN. Was he fat, average build or thin?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, he was slender; not real slender, but you know----

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing glasses or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. That he had on?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't say that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any jewelry he might have had on?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. You say you went down to the police station when, Mr. Scoggins, approximately?

Mr. SCOGGINS. You mean the time of day it was?

Mr. BELIN. Was it the same day of the shooting or the next day?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, it was the next day.

Mr. BELIN. Morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, the best I can remember, they called me down from the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. Well, the other guy--I was close to the downtown area, and it didn't take me long to get there, and I waited quite a while before the other man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner.

Mr. BELIN. It was before dinner?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, whenever they called me in.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been on the afternoon of November 23, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When they took me down there it was along about dinner time.

Representative FORD. What do you mean by dinner time? In various parts of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. Was it the noon meal or the evening meal?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. Yes what? It was the noon meal?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that correct; they took you to the police station?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think that would be about the time.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the lineup, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Four.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like--strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't know his name as Oswald at that time, did you, or did you not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, the next day I did. But, of course I didn't know what his name was the day that I picked him out.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a man in the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened in the police station with regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and what you said to them, and so on.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they say "Here is a lineup, see if you can identify anyone," or did they say, "One of the men in the lineup"----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not----

Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, some short?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, and the other two was a little bit shorter.

Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television prior to your appearance here at the lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. DULLES. You had not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Had you been working this Saturday morning with your cab?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. In other words, you went to work Saturday morning at the regular time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. And were working when they asked you to come down to the cab stand to go over to the police station?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.

Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.

Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it.

Mr. BELIN. On television?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have.

Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.

Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have the man turn around, or could you----

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, they turned him around.

Mr. BELIN. Did they turn just one man around or all of them?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; they had them all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting wore?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket on. He had on kind of a polo shirt.

Mr. BELIN. Before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police officers show you a picture of this man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any investigator come up to you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman or a Secret Service agent?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too----

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you remember?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, and then he told me the other one was Oswald.

Representative FORD. Had you narrowed the number of pictures from more than two to two?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, they showed you pictures of how many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say 4 or 5.

Representative FORD. And you narrowed the number of 4 or 5 down to 2?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Down to two; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any pedestrians standing at the corner of East 10th and Patton, any of the corners there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't see anybody. I was kind of excited.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other person walking along the street there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Not at the time of the shooting, I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that you haven't told us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the Tippit shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't--nothing that I know of. That is the first time I ever seen anything like that happen, and I was pretty well excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. But actually, of course, right after the shooting, I saw a number of people come running over, you see, from everywhere.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all men?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, they were just people.

Mr. BELIN. General Carr, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. No, sir. I was exploring with him, but I guess we won't get into it.

Mr. BELIN. Those are all the questions I have. Just a second. When you saw a picture in the morning paper of Lee Harvey Oswald, did this look similar to the man you saw at the Tippit shooting, or did it look different?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say similar; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the same man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I had my eyes examined when I went to work for the cab company and the lady said I had remarkable eyesight. You know, they have--after I went to work, after a while, I had to go get my eyes examined.

Representative FORD. You had your eyes examined subsequent to your employment with the cab company?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was sometime after, maybe 6 months after.

Mr. DULLES. How many years ago was that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, about a year, approximately.

Representative FORD. At that time what did the eye examiner tell you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. She said I had excellent eyesight and vision.

Representative FORD. You don't wear glasses?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Representative FORD. What about your hearing?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I can hear. I got good hearing. I never did have it examined or anything, but I can hear everything.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I got a ticket for parking that I had to pay.

Representative FORD. That is a traffic violation.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. No; I really haven't had any problems that amount to anything otherwise than traffic violations.

Representative FORD. Nothing other than traffic violations?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I was picked up one time in New York City for stowing away on a tugboat.

Mr. BELIN. Stowing away on a boat?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually what happened----

Mr. DULLES. How old were you then?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river.

Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense.

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble.

Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting at all or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after I came back. You see. I saw her talking to them.

Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene.

Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy.

Mr. DULLES. It was after that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know--one other person?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation is?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley.

Mr. BELIN. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley.

Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley identify that man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left.

Mr. BELIN. He was on your left?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your hands?

Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of fingers for the man that you saw?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified the man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing between you and Mr. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there.

Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down like this.

Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of your belt?

Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about like this.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where you held up your fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone see you holding your fingers up there?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they could see your fingers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my left, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir?

Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before or after?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time.

Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I never did discuss it with him at all after that.

Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a passenger?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that.

Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. During your working day?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes down.

If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our records sheet.

Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to 321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address.

Representative FORD. And your record shows that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we let him off, and the amount the fare was.

Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building. Of course, I don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their apartment number so we could find it.

Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of 10th and Patton?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say.

Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to the corner of 10th and Patton?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but I know a lot of the guys.

Representative FORD. What is the club called?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play dominos.

Representative FORD. It is at what address?

Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton.

Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how far away, a block, two blocks?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say, just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from where I was parked at to the place, you see.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building.

Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here.

Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which the camera appears to be heading in what direction?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove your cab back to that scene, is that correct?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the time of the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533.

Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted.

(Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said to you, and where he said it, and at what time.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while we were down there waiting.

Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610 South Akard Street, you know.

Mr. DULLES. A cab stand?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office.

Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your cab?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is 610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there, a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and mine, of course, I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown.

Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you.

Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others.

Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was talking to one of the----

Mr. DULLES. Where did this take place?

Mr. SCOGGINS. It was down at the cabstand.

Mr. DULLES. Was this on Saturday after the assassination?

Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was telling them where he picked him up and where he took him to.

Mr. DULLES. And that is what you recall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; because I didn't know him. I wasn't acquainted with the man.

Mr. DULLES. You were not acquainted with Mr. Whaley?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who he was.

Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the man and where he took him?

Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 block.

Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question.

Mr. DULLES. Proceed then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.

Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Anything else?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. Scoggins.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM RESUMED

Mr. DULLES. You were sworn when you previously were before us, and this testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have given. Will you be seated?

Mr. BALL. I have two Commission Exhibits, 535 and 536. I will show them to you, Mrs. Markham, and I will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. BALL. Never have seen him before. Do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no.

Mr. BALL. They are pictures of the same man.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. We are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I know. No; not this man. This man I have never seen--I have never seen this man in my life.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't. It is just a picture of a man; I don't know him.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, do you have any further questions?

Mr. BALL. No further questions.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Representative FORD. None whatsoever?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Traffic violations?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You are lucky.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have never been in trouble.

Representative FORD. No difficulties whatsoever with the law?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is all, Mrs. Markham. You can be excused.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BALL. I offer Exhibits 535 and 536 in evidence at this time.

Mr. DULLES. They will be received.

(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 535 and 536 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. They were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man named Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. Yes, because he appeared before this Commission, did he not?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich, can you identify him? Were you present when Mr. Lane appeared before this Commission?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I was.

Mr. DULLES. Can you identify these pictures as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes; I can identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane. I would also like for the record to indicate where they came from. Commission Exhibit No. 535 is taken from--Commission Exhibit 536 came from the San Francisco Chronicle, and dated February 8, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane.

Commission No. 535 is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was in the Commission files, and it is an Associated Press photograph, and appeared, it is taken from the New York Herald Tribune of March 5, 1964, and purports to be a photograph of Mark Lane. I have met Mr. Lane once or twice prior to his appearance before this Commission, and I was present during his testimony before this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. You identify these as pictures of Mr. Lane?

Mr. REDLICH. These are photographs of Mark Lane.

Mr. DULLES. And these Exhibits 535 and 536 were the exhibits which were presented to Mrs. Markham?

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show how they were presented. They were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate whom they were pictures of on their face.

Mr. DULLES. That is on the record.

Mrs. Markham, there is a short question that Congressman Ford wanted to put to you.

Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I have always had good eyesight.

Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I don't.

Representative FORD. Have your eyes tested recently?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't. I have no cause to.

Representative FORD. You have never worn glasses in your lifetime?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. DULLES. Are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just good-sighted?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just good-sighted. I did a lot of writing and a cashier and everything. I see pretty good.

Representative FORD. If you go to a movie can you see the picture easily and well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Oh, yes; yes, sir; real well.

Representative FORD. You can see things at a distance quite well?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. I have never had glasses.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We told you orally in Washington, or in Dallas last Friday, didn't we?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. She has not been sworn. Will you kindly raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, you didn't get a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But when Mr. Belin and I were in Dallas on Friday of last week we asked you to appear?

Mrs. DAVIS. On Saturday.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday, was it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is right. And you voluntarily agreed to come up here, didn't you?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Without any notice from the Commission?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. DULLES. May we thank you for that.

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens, Tex.

Mr. BALL. You are married, are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have some children?

Mrs. DAVIS. Two.

Mr. BALL. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy.

Mr. BALL. Troy Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or what is his business?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Beg pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Live there all your life?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; part of it I have lived in Dallas some.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mrs. DAVIS. Halfway through the 10th midterm.

Mr. BALL. Then did you get married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were living in Dallas on November 22, were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was your address there in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was living with you at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. You mean in the apartment or in the building?

Mr. BALL. In the apartment with you.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just my husband and two children.

Mr. BALL. You had a sister, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sister-in-law.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia.

Mr. BALL. Was she living there at the time, too?

Mrs. DAVIS. They lived around the side of the apartment house.

Mr. BALL. In the same building?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was your husband's sister?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; it was my husband's brother's wife.

Mr. BALL. Husband's brother's wife. I see.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have got some pictures here so we will understand. I will show you Exhibit 525. Is the house in which you were living on November 22d shown in the picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Here.

Mr. BALL. It is the one on the corner? The southeast corner of 10th and Patton, isn't it?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know anything about that, but I know where it is.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit 524. Is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; sir.

Mr. BALL. And I show you 534, is the house shown in that picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am showing you 528 and there is a lawn there, that is the lawn of what house?

Mrs. DAVIS. Of the house I lived in.

Mr. BALL. The house you lived in.

On that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on November 22d?

Mrs. DAVIS. Those gunshots.

Mr. BALL. Gunshots? Where were you when you heard gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. In bed.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say gunshot or gunshots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Shots.

Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together.

Mr. BALL. You were lying on the bed. What did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I got up, put my shoes on to see what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go outdoors?

Mrs. DAVIS. At first, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you went to the door, did you open the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. I opened the door and held the screen opened.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham standing across the street over there, and she was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard.

Mr. BALL. A man was coming across what yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. My yard.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.

Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he was emptying it?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it.

Mr. DULLES. Which hand did he have it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right hand.

Mr. BALL. To his left palm?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him throw anything away?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do next?

Mrs. DAVIS. He looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and went around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking at his normal pace.

Mr. BALL. And he went around the corner?

Did he go on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. He was on the sidewalk right beside the house.

Mr. BALL. Did he go, did he cut across your lawn at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mrs. DAVIS. He cut across the middle of the yard.

Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram, 523, this is 400--that is your home.

Mrs. DAVIS. He came right across like this.

Mr. BALL. Came across like this?

Mrs. DAVIS. Ran beside the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. There is already a mark on there.

Mrs. DAVIS. He left the sidewalk about here, just on the other side of this.

Mr. BALL. Well, mark on the picture now, photo 21 which is Commission Exhibit 534, and you just take this and mark with it and show where he left the sidewalk and what course he took.

Mrs. DAVIS. He was just parallel to the side of this and right around this little bush and around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Around the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The black mark from the sidewalk on 534 marks the course that the man took?

Representative FORD. Could you tell us where you were standing when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was standing on the porch.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there.

Mrs. DAVIS. I can't see the porch. The door is right between these two things here.

Mr. BALL. These two things--what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Between the two posts.

Mr. BALL. Two posts?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's get a better view.

Mr. DULLES. It seems to be the best.

Mr. BALL. You are right.

That is 525.

Now mark where he cut across on that with a line.

Mrs. DAVIS. Right across like this, only it would be on the other side of the bushes here.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

And where were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Standing right--here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there. That "X" is a mark to locate your position and we will give a symbol to it. "D." Now, the line you have drawn from the sidewalk through the bushes is the course the man took. Where was he when you saw him emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was right here on the other side of this bush.

Mr. BALL. Draw a line through the course there.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just about along in here.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at the time he was emptying his gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is what I presumed because he had it open and was shaking it.

Mr. DULLES. I see. Just right there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, there is a cross you make across the line that he took which marks the place where he was emptying the gun.

Mrs. DAVIS. Just about halfway there.

Mr. BALL. Mark it also on 21, 534.

Mrs. DAVIS. Not quite half, not quite to the bushes there.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, even though she cannot pinpoint the point where she was standing because of the photograph, she might draw an arrow showing about where she was standing.

Mr. BALL. Show an arrow about where you were standing.

Mrs. DAVIS. About there.

Mr. BALL. That is 21, photo 21 and Commission Exhibit 534.

After the man left, what did you do, after he went out of sight what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I went back in and phoned the police.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you tell the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. I just told them that a policeman had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. I came back outside and walked down to where the policeman's car was out.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was laying on the left-hand side of the car on the ground, by the left-hand fender.

Mr. BALL. Was he alive or what?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he was alive or dead?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I didn't get that close.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not 5 minutes, I would imagine, because the police cars started coming, so I went back to my yard.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a man coming and get the policeman's gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you later look in the bushes and find something?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; in the grass beside the house.

Mr. BALL. The grass beside the house. What did you find?

Mrs. DAVIS. We found one shell.

Mr. BALL. One shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your sister-in-law, did your sister-in-law find something else?

Mrs. DAVIS. She found one later in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. One, later?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you show me on one of these pictures here where you found one shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Under the window here. That would be the only one I could tell.

Mr. BALL. The only one that shows, it is photo 3, it is Commission Exhibit 534. Draw an arrow down.

Mrs. DAVIS. Right Under that window there.

Mr. BALL. Under that window.

The arrow which is marked "D-1" shows the position where you found one shell. Did you see your sister-in-law find the other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was that found?

Mrs. DAVIS. There is a little cement walk right here by her door, it was right there, not too far from there.

Mr. BALL. Could you draw an arrow down to show the approximate position?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was almost in front of her door, there is a little cement porch to step up to her door.

Mr. BALL. The arrow which we marked as "D-2" marks the place where your sister-in-law found the second shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You only found two shells, did you, you one and your sister-in-law one?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did you find the one shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. This was probably an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours, after the officer was shot.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did your sister-in-law find her shell, find the shell that she found?

Mr. DAVIS. Somewhere around 4:30, 5, somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you later go down to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and asked if you could identify the man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other men.

Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, and yourself, and other men?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were police officers there?

Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room.

Mr. BALL. When those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Four.

Mr. BALL. Were they of the same size or of different sizes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Most of them was about the same size.

Mr. BALL. All white men, were they?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. BALL. Number 2 you recognized? Did you tell any policeman there anything after you recognized them?

Mrs. DAVIS. I told the man who had brought us down there.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mrs. DAVIS. That I thought number 2 was the man that I saw.

Mr. BALL. That you saw?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. By number 2, was the man you saw the man you saw doing what?

Mrs. DAVIS. Unloading the gun.

Mr. BALL. And going across your yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day that you were at the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was after 8, I am sure.

Mr. BALL. After when?

Mrs. DAVIS. After 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. On what day?

Mrs. DAVIS. On Friday, the same day.

Mr. BALL. The same day? It was after 8 o'clock on Friday, the same day that you had seen the man unloading the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any way of fixing the time of when the man ran across your lawn, approximately?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not exactly because I had laid down with the children and I didn't pay any attention to what time it was.

Representative FORD. You saw him take the shells out of the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he was shaking them.

Representative FORD. He was shaking them?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out.

Representative FORD. Did you find this one bullet at the point where you saw him shake the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; it was around the side of the house.

Representative FORD. About how many feet?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know. Not too far.

Representative FORD. But he had moved from the one point to where you found the bullets?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mrs. DAVIS. That is where they started looking for it.

Representative FORD. I meant the shells rather than the bullets.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw him running across the lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color coat?

Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because I had seen him from a side view of him. I didn't see him fullface.

Mr. BALL. Now answer the question. Did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes?

Mrs. DAVIS. From his face because that was all I was looking at.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, when you heard the shots you were lying down, were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone lying with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia was laying on the couch.

Mr. BALL. In the same room with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did she go to the door with you when you went to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. She went right behind me.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that was going across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How is it different?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket.

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt which is Commission Exhibit No. 150. Was that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the man had on who went across your lawn?

Mrs. DAVIS. I thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions. Where was Mrs. Markham when you first saw her?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was standing right here on this corner.

Mr. BALL. That picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That picture that you refer to is photo number 3, Commission Exhibit 524.

It is as shown on the corner here, as the woman who is shown in the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. That was her position.

Representative FORD. Do you wear glasses, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had your eyes examined recently?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was in October when I applied for some driver's license.

Representative FORD. In October of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Representative FORD. You applied for a driver's license?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe it was the first--some time in October, I believe.

Representative FORD. When you applied for a driver's license in Texas you have to take an examination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And you did take one?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did they recommend that you wear glasses?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. He said my eyes are all right.

Representative FORD. He said your eyes were all right?

Mr. DULLES. Have you had any problems with the law at any time?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Except for traffic violations?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you. What is your husband's occupation?

Mrs. DAVIS. He is a roofer.

Mr. DULLES. What?

Mrs. DAVIS. Puts shingles and roofs on houses.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes, surely.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Davis, before you went down to look at the man at the police station at 8 o'clock that night, had you seen television pictures of the man on television that he had been arrested?

Mrs. DAVIS. As far as I can remember I don't remember seeing it because I was out in the yard all the time that was going on, and I don't believe the TV was on.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw the man in the lineup were you shown a picture of any man by a police officer?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you read a newspaper and see any pictures in a newspaper, picture of a man in the newspaper, before you went down there?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't really know. I couldn't be quite sure. I can't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you take an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. DAVIS. We take an afternoon paper, we took an afternoon paper then.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not you did see a picture in the paper of the man?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember. I don't even remember whether I read it or not. There was so much excitement.

Mr. BALL. When the man ran over the lawn, can you give me an estimate of how far away he was from you?

Mrs. DAVIS. I can't.

Mr. BALL. Make a judgment about it as to this room. Is it as far away from you to me?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about as far as here to the corner of the room out there, or just a little bit more, the far corner.

Representative FORD. Just a little less, did you say?

Mrs. DAVIS. About like that.

Mr. BELIN. About seven or eight steps?

Mr. BALL. About 20, 25 feet, is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. There is an affidavit that has been filed with us, a statement you made to the Secret Service men on the first of December 1963. And in that affidavit, it says, after describing that "The man was on the sidewalk directly in front of me and shaking shells from a pistol into his hand as he walked,"--this says here, "The man was walking in a normal direction and walked across the corner of my property towards Patton Street."

Did you ever tell anyone that you saw the man walking in a normal direction?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I showed them where it was at, and they done that.

Mr. BALL. I see. He was walking--what direction?

Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't know. And so they figured that out.

Mr. BALL. He was walking towards what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was going down Patton.

Mr. BALL. Towards what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jefferson. And so they figured it out for me.

Mr. BALL. However--when--did you see the man after he went around the corner of your house?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you see the taxicab parked on the corner?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to that afternoon, and you give your best memory of what the man looked like. Don't think of what anybody has told you or what has happened in between. Try to remember the vision you had of that man--the color of his hair, the size of his build and so forth.

Mrs. DAVIS. You mean weight and like that?

Mr. BALL. He was white, wasn't he?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Light complexioned, or dark?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was more light complected than he would have been dark.

Mr. BALL. Color of his hair?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was either dark brown or black. It was just dark hair.

Mr. BALL. And the color of his clothes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat over it.

Mr. BALL. About what age would you say the man was?

Mrs. DAVIS. I am not very good on that. I don't know. I would say he was about 23, 24.

Mr. BALL. And what about his weight and height?

Mrs. DAVIS. I----

Mr. BALL. You have to be general, I know that.

Mr. DULLES. Just your best recollection. If you haven't any, just tell us.

Mrs. DAVIS. I just don't know.

Mr. BALL. Was he fat or slender?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was slender built, and not very heavy.

Mr. BALL. Was he a tall man, or a real short man, or average?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, he wasn't especially tall. I would say he was about medium height or a little taller. I mean he wasn't extra tall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have some difficulty in identifying this No. 2 man in the showup when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, they made us look at him a long time before they let us say anything.

Mr. BALL. What about you? I am not talking about what you told them.

What was your reaction when you saw this man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I was pretty sure it was the same man I saw. When they made him turn sideways, I was positive that was the one I seen.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you, Mrs. Davis.

Mr. DULLES. Did your sister-in-law go with you to the lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did she make an identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. At the same time as you did?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see her identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't discuss it.

Mr. DULLES. I mean, but after she had made it, did you see what identification she had made?

Mrs. DAVIS. Do you mean--I don't understand what you mean.

Mr. DULLES. Well, let me start over again.

Did you identify the man in the lineup before your sister-in-law?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Before your sister-in-law?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; I was the first one.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Did your sister-in-law, to your knowledge, make the same identification?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; she was there with me at the same time.

Mr. DULLES. She was standing with you. And she saw the identification you had made?

Mrs. DAVIS. All I done was just lean over and tell the man.

Mr. DULLES. How did you make your identification? By pointing or holding up your fingers.

Mrs. DAVIS. The man that was sitting next to me just asked me which one I thought it was, and I leaned over and told him. And then he leaned around me and asked her.

Mr. DULLES. He did what?

Mrs. DAVIS. He leaned around--he was behind me, and asked her.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mrs. DAVIS. I sort of set up where he could talk to her.

Mr. DULLES. And did you identify the man by number or by pointing?

Mrs. DAVIS. By number.

Mr. DULLES. Do you remember what number it was?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was number 2. From the left.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any questions?

Representative FORD. Did you whisper this information to the man behind you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we were all sitting in a line, and he was sitting on this side of me. He just leaned over and asked me which one I thought it was.

Representative FORD. He was sitting on your right?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you turned to your right and told him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And your sister-in-law was sitting on your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. On the other side, yes.

Representative FORD. When you spoke to him, you were speaking away from her?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you speak in a loud voice or a whisper?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; very quietly.

Representative FORD. You think your sister-in-law heard you say the number?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know.

Mr DULLES. Mr. Attorney General, have you any questions?

Mr. CARR. Thank you, I do not.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions.

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that although the witness did not receive the letter notifying her of our request for an appearance, we mailed it to her last known address at 400 East 10th Street, and the letter came back here. But the notice was mailed to the witness. It was just that it was not forwarded to where she now lives in Athens.

Mr. DULLES. You had moved from this house where these incidents took place?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. You are excused. Thank you very much.

Mr. BALL. Our next witness is Mr. Ted Callaway.

TESTIMONY OF TED CALLAWAY

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Callaway, in the absence of the Chief Justice, I am presiding over the meeting of the Commission this morning.

Would you kindly raise your right hand?

Do you swear that the testimony that you will give to this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And nothing but the truth?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You may be seated.

Mr. Ball, will you proceed?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Callaway, we are investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. We are going to ask you questions with regard to what you saw on the day of November 22, 1963, in Dallas.

Where do you live?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 805 West Eighth.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Car salesman.

Mr. BALL. We would like to know something about your background. We ask most of the witnesses these questions.

Where were you born?

Mr. CALLAWAY. In Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Dallas?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Went to school in Dallas?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Forty.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Two years of college.

Mr. BALL. What college?

Mr. CALLAWAY. S.M.U.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of college?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I worked part time as a clothing salesman downtown, and then my uncle was a painter, and I worked for him for awhile. Then I went back in the Marines for 3 years.

And I have been selling cars since '56.

Mr. BALL. You are a used-car salesman?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you employed--have you had any trouble with the police of any sort?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No.

Mr. BALL. Any difficulty at all in your life?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; never.

Mr. BALL. You were discharged from the Marines, were you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What year?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 1954.

Mr. BALL. Received an honorable discharge from the service?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working?

Mr. CALLAWAY. At Harris Bros., auto sales.

Mr. BALL. And what was your job?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I was used-car manager.

Mr. BALL. Now, Harris Bros. Auto Sales is located where?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Where is that from 10th and Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just one block.

Mr. BALL. One block south?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What corner?

Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be on the northeast corner.

Mr. BALL. So that we can orient ourselves from 10th and Patton--I have marked this diagram as Commission Exhibit 537.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 537 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, will you, on 537, take this and mark the location of the used car lot with an "X"?

Mr. CALLAWAY. All right, sir.

Right here.

Mr. BALL. The "X" marks the position of the used-car lot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Callaway, around 1:15 or so of that day, where were you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I was standing on the front porch of our office.

Mr. BALL. That is at 401 East Jefferson?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No; 501.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture which we will mark as 538.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 538 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this show a picture of the office?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir. That is it.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went down there one day last week to have some pictures taken.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you attempt to stand in the same place you were at the time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were standing November 22d around 1 o'clock or so?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots.

Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sound, could you tell the source of the sound?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir, I could tell it was back of the lot over toward 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, I could see--I was still--before I got to the sidewalk, I could see this taxicab parked down on Patton. I saw the cabdriver beside his cab, and saw a man cutting from one side of the street to the other. That would be the east side of Patton and over to the west side of Patton. And he was running. And he had a gun in his hand, his right hand.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. That would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the arm bent at the elbow, is that right?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; just like this.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here, 539.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 539 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. When this picture was taken, did you try to represent the place you were standing when you saw the man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you get there?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I ran.

Mr. BALL. You ran from the place on the porch, is that right?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right. From right here, to there.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were at the place shown on 538, on the porch?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the shots, what did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I just hurried--I don't know whether I really ran or not. But I hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you came to this position, you say you saw a taxicab?

Mr. DULLES. Where is this position on this chart? Right here?

Mr. CALLAWAY. It would be about right here. I come off the porch here.

Mr. DULLES. Point 29?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You saw a taxicab where, on photo 29?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Let's mark an arrow there, about where you saw the taxicab. The arrow marks the position of the taxicab. You saw a man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was crossing Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? Closer to you than the taxicab?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he running or walking?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was running.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you noticed he had the gun? Or where was he when you noticed he had the gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. When I first saw the gun, he had already crossed from here to here and was coming up this sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Coming up the sidewalk on which side of Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. West side of Patton.

Mr. BALL. And did he continue to come?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you say anything to him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you say?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered "Hey, man, what the hell is going on?" When he was right along here.

Mr. BALL. Make a mark there where he was when you yelled, "What the hell is going on?" "X" marks the place where the man with the gun was when you yelled at him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark it on this chart, too--Exhibit 537?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right along here--about 27. I guess. That would be it. You see, here is where I was, sir. And then he was right there when I hollered at him.

Mr. DULLES. I don't get this. There is an alleyway there, apparently.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. But here is where the squad car was.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. And here is where the cab was.

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. He had come all the way down?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He had come from there through this yard and cut behind this taxicab, over to this side of the street.

Mr. DULLES. So he was there, then?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir. I didn't holler at him until he came up to here. He was running up this sidewalk.

Mr. DULLES. He was going south on Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. On the west side of the street.

Representative FORD. You saw him run from about the taxicab----

Mr. CALLAWAY. Across the street, up this sidewalk.

Mr. DULLES. About how far is that? Fifty feet or more?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, it is more than that. From here down to there, I think is about 300 feet.

Mr. BALL. Mark on this diagram, which is 537, where the man was, and the course he took.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well, now, when I first saw him he was right here. Then he came across here, down this way.

Mr. BALL. Down to the point where you spoke to him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. What did he do when you hollered at him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He slowed his pace, almost halted for a minute. And he said something to me, which I could not understand. And then kind of shrugged his shoulders, and kept on going.

Mr. BALL. Show the course he took on the map, if you will.

Mr. CALLAWAY. All right.

Right on down here, and he cut through this front yard.

Mr. BALL. And where was he when you last saw him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Right here.

Mr. BALL. Right at that point?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first "X" marks the position of the parking lot--we will mark that 1. The place of the taxicab we will mark as 2. The place where the man was with the gun when you yelled at him, we will mark that as 3. The last place you saw the man, that we will mark 4.

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now----

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.

Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I hollered to this guy behind--B. D. Searcy.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to Mr. Searcy?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him to keep an eye on that guy, I says, "Keep an eye on that guy, follow him. I am going to go down there and see what is going on." So I ran, a good hard run, from here down around the corner.

Mr. BALL. 10th and Patton?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you got there what did you see?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.

By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. He did.

Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said, yes.

I said, "If he is going up Jefferson, he can't be very far. Let's see if we can find him." So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up to 10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson to Beckley. And we turned on Beckley. If we had kept going up Jefferson, we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him, because he was headed right towards the Texas Theatre. But then we circled around several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it happened.

Mr. BALL. And the ambulance--had the ambulance been there by that time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Oh, yes; the ambulance already left before I ever left with the cabdriver.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police station later?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That evening.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I think it was around 6:30 or 7 o'clock. I remember it was after dark.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there alone?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. I went with Sam Guinyard, a colored porter of ours. He saw him, also.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. CALLAWAY. We drove down. Officer--Detective Jim Leavelle met us, and took us into this room where they showed us the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Now, before you went down there, had you seen any newspaper accounts of this incident?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I had been out there on the lot. I hadn't seen a newspaper, hadn't even heard a radio, really.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen any television?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen a picture of a man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No.

Mr. BALL. The officer show you any pictures?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went into a police lineup, in a room where they had a lineup of men?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Four.

Mr. BALL. And were they all the same size, or different sizes?

Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same build, but the man that I identified was the shortest one of the bunch.

Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the same age?

Mr. CALLAWAY. They were about the same age, yes, sir. They looked--you know.

Mr. BALL. And you say you identified a man. How did you do that?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Well----

Mr. BALL. Tell us what happened.

Mr. CALLAWAY. We first went into the room. There was Jim Leavelle, the detective, Sam Guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. We waited down there for probably 20 or 30 minutes. And Jim told us, "When I show you these guys, be sure, take your time, see if you can make a positive identification."

Mr. BALL. Had you known him before?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.

I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.

Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what distance was he away from you--the closest that he ever was to you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. About 56 feet.

Mr. BALL. You measured that, did you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Last Saturday morning?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Measured it with a tape measure?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. He had ditched his jacket.

Mr. BALL. What kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mr. BALL. Tell them the size?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; I told them--I think I told them about 5'10".

Mr. DULLES. Did you see his front face at any time, or did you only have a side view of him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He looked right at me, sir. When I called to him, he looked right at me.

Mr. DULLES. You saw front face?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket here--Commission's Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across the street with a gun?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; it sure does. Yes, that is the same type jacket. Actually, I thought it had a little more tan to it.

Mr. BALL. Same type?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I show you a shirt, 150. Does it look anything like the shirt he had on under the jacket?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Sir, when I saw him he didn't have--I couldn't see this shirt. I saw--he had it open. That shirt was open, and I could see his white T-shirt underneath.

Mr. BALL. He had a white T-shirt underneath?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes. That is the shirt he had on in the lineup that night.

Mr. BALL. Was he fat or thin?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He was just----

Mr. BALL. I mean the man you saw across the street?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a nice athletic type size boy, I mean. Neither fat nor thin.

Mr. BALL. What did you estimate his weight when you talked to the officer before the lineup?

Mr. CALLAWAY. I told him it looked to me like around 160 pounds.

Mr. DULLES. How fast was he going when you hailed him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Just a good steady trot, not real fast.

Mr. DULLES. He was not walking and not running--it was a trot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. A trot; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He stopped?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Almost. He slowed down, like a guy is trotting along, and he almost stopped, and kept going.

Mr. DULLES. And he looked at you?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; he said something, but I could not understand it.

Mr. DULLES. You could not understand what he said?

Mr. CALLAWAY. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then did he resume his progress at a trot?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Searcy if he followed him?

Mr. CALLAWAY. He didn't follow him.

He said something about "Follow him, hell. That man will kill you. He has a gun."

So instead of following him, he went back over and got behind the office building.

Mr. DULLES. Did he see him at any time?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes; he saw him the same time I did; yes, sir. I never could figure out why he didn't just follow that man. You could follow 50 yards behind him and keep a guy in sight. Chances are you wouldn't get killed 50 yards away.

Mr. DULLES. Had you had previous military service?

Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; I was in the Marine Corps 6 years, World War II, and during Korea.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever tangle with the law in any way?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What years were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. CALLAWAY. 1942 through '45, and then '51 through '54.

Mr. DULLES. Were you in Korea?

Mr. CALLAWAY. No, sir; I didn't go to Korea. I was at Camp Pendleton as a troop trainer.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer to Exhibit 539, inclusive.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell me what the numbers are?

Mr. BALL. 537, 538, and 539.

Mr. DULLES. Exhibits 537, 538, and 539 previously identified will now be admitted in evidence.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 537 through 539 were received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Monday, March 30, 1964

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO AND DR. MALCOLM OLIVER PERRY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 30, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF DR. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Dr. Carrico, you know the reason why we are here, what we are investigating.

If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn, sir.

You solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. CARRICO. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you state your full name for the record please?

Dr. CARRICO. Charles James Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. CARRICO. Home address?

Mr. SPECTER. Please.

Dr. CARRICO. It is 2605 Ridgwood in Irving.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your professional address?

Dr. CARRICO. Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir?

Dr. CARRICO. 28.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. CARRICO. I attended grade school and high school in Denton, Tex.; received a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry from North Texas State University in 1947; received my M.D. from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in 1961; served an internship at Parkland Memorial Hospital from 1961 to 1962; and then did a year of fellowship at the surgery department at Southwestern Medical School, followed by my surgery residency at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the State of Texas, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you board certified at the present time or are you working toward the board certification in surgery?

Dr. CARRICO. I am engaged in surgery residency which will qualify me for board certification.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds?

Dr. CARRICO. In the emergency room at Parkland, during my residence school and internship and residency, we have seen a fair number of gunshot wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you approximate the number of gunshot wounds you have treated in the course of those duties?

Dr. CARRICO. In all probably 150, 200, something in that range.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963?

Dr. CARRICO. At that time I was assigned to the elective surgery service, which is the general surgery service treating the usual surgical cases. I was in the emergency room evaluating some patient for admission.

Mr. SPECTER. What were you doing specifically in the neighborhood of 12:30 p.m. on that day?

Dr. CARRICO. At that time I had been called to the emergency room to evaluate a patient for admission to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you notified that an emergency case involving President Kennedy was en route to the hospital?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time that you were notified that President Kennedy was en route to the hospital?

Dr. CARRICO. Shortly after 12:30 is the best I can do.

Mr. SPECTER. How long thereafter was it that he actually did arrive at Parkland, to the best of your recollection?

Dr. CARRICO. Within 2 minutes approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. And precisely where were you at Parkland when you first observed him?

Dr. CARRICO. When I first observed him I was in the emergency room, seeing--actually Governor Connally had been brought in first, as you know, Dr. Dulany and I had gone to care for Governor Connally and when the President was brought in I left Governor Connally and went to care for the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout of Parkland with respect to the point where emergency cases are brought up to the building and the general layout of the building into the emergency room.

Dr. CARRICO. The emergency entrance is at the back of the building. There is an ambulance ramp. Then immediately adjacent to the ambulance ramp are, of course, double doors, swinging doors and a corridor which is approximately 30 feet long and empties directly into the emergency room.

Then inside the emergency room are several areas, the surgical area consists of about eight booths for treating, examination and treatment of patients, and four large emergency operating rooms.

Two of these are specifically set aside for acutely ill, severely ill, patients and these are referred to as trauma rooms.

Mr. SPECTER. And were these trauma rooms used in connection with the treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What precisely was the point where you met at his arrival?

Dr. CARRICO. The President was being wheeled into trauma room one when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else, if anyone, was present at that time?

Dr. CARRICO. At that time, Dr. Don Curtis, Martin White.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he a doctor, too?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; Miss Bowron.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Miss Bowron?

Dr. CARRICO. She is one of the nurses on duty at the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was the first doctor to actually see the President?

Dr. CARRICO. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what did you observe as to the condition of President Kennedy when you first saw him?

Dr. CARRICO. He was on an ambulance cart, emergency cart, rather. His color was blue white, ashen. He had slow agonal respiration, spasmodic respirations without any coordination. He was making no voluntary movements. His eyes were open, pupils were seen to be dilated and later were seen not to react to light. This was the initial impression.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the status of his pulse at the time of arrival?

Dr. CARRICO. He had no palpable pulse.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he making any movements at the time of arrival?

Dr. CARRICO. No voluntary movements, only the spasmodic respirations.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any heartbeat noted at his arrival?

Dr. CARRICO. After these initial observations we opened his shirt, coat, listened very briefly to his chest, heard a few sounds which we felt to be heartbeats and then proceeded with the remainder of the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion was President Kennedy alive or dead on his arrival at Parkland.

Dr. CARRICO. From a medical standpoint I suppose he was still alive in that he did still have a heartbeat?

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, was taken with respect to the removal of President Kennedy's clothing?

Dr. CARRICO. As I said after I had opened his shirt and coat, I proceeded with the examination and the nurses removed his clothing as is the usual procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy wearing a back brace?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe as precisely as you can that back brace?

Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, this was a white cotton or some sort of fiber standard brace with stays and corset, in a corset-type arrangement and buckles.

Mr. SPECTER. How far up on his body did it come?

Dr. CARRICO. Just below his umbilicus, as I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. How far down on his body did it go?

Dr. CARRICO. I did not examine below his belt at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time examine below his belt?

Dr. CARRICO. I did not; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know if anyone else did?

Dr. CARRICO. Not in a formal manner.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take by way of treating President Kennedy on his arrival?

Dr. CARRICO. After what we have described we completed an initial emergency examination, which consisted of, as we have already said, his color, his pulse, we felt his back, determined there were no large wounds which would be an immediate threat to life there. Looked very briefly at the head wound and then because of his inadequate respirations inserted an endotracheal tube to attempt to support these respirations.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did you do with respect to the back, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. CARRICO. This is a routine examination of critically ill patients where you haven't got time to examine him fully. I just placed my hands just above the belt, but in this case just above the brace, and ran my hands up his back.

Mr. SPECTER. To what point on his body?

Dr. CARRICO. All the way up to his neck very briefly.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel by that?

Dr. CARRICO. I felt nothing other than the blood and debris. There was no large wound there.

Mr. SPECTER. What source did you attribute the blood to at that time?

Dr. CARRICO. As it could have come from the head wound, and it certainly could have been a back wound, but there was no way to tell whether this blood would have come from a back wound and not from his head.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you next take then?

Dr. CARRICO. At that time the endotracheal tube was inserted, using a curved laryngoscopic blade, inserting an endotracheal tube, it was seen there were some contusions, hematoma to the right of the larynx, with a minimal deviation of the larynx to the left, and ragged tissue below indicating tracheal injury.

The tube was inserted past this injury, and the cuff inflater was connected to a Bennett machine which is a respiratory assistor using positive pressure.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly what you mean in lay terms by a cuffed endotracheal tube?

Dr. CARRICO. This is a plastic tube which is inserted into the trachea, into the windpipe, to allow an adequate airway, adequate breathing. The cuff is a small latex cuff which should prevent leakage of air around the tube, thus insuring an adequate airway.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, to describe what efforts you made to revive the President.

Dr. CARRICO. After the endotracheal tube was inserted and connected, I listened briefly to his chest, respirations were better but still inadequate.

Dr. Perry arrived, and because of the inadequate respirations the presence of a tracheal injury, advised that the chest tube was to be inserted, this was done by some of the other physicians in the room.

At the same time we had been getting the airway inserted Dr. Curtis and Dr. White were doing a cutdown, venous section using polyethylene catheters through which fluid, medicine and blood could be administered.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what you mean by a cutdown in relationship to what they did in this case?

Dr. CARRICO. This was a small incision over his ankle and a tube was inserted into one of his veins through which blood could be given, fluid.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the general purpose of that to maintain a circulatory system?

Dr. CARRICO. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. In wounded parties?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now proceed again to describe what else was done for the President in an effort to save his life?

Dr. CARRICO. Sure. Dr. Perry then took over supervision and treatment, and the chest tubes were inserted, another cutdown was done by Dr. Jones on the President's arm.

Fluid, as I said, was given, blood was given, hydrocortisone was given. Dr. Clark, the chief neurosurgeon, Dr. Bashour, cardiologist, was there or arrived, and a cardiac monitor was attached and although I never saw any electro-activity, Dr. Clark said there was some electrical activity of the heart which means he was still trying to----

Mr. SPECTER. What is Dr. Clark's position in the hospital?

Dr. CARRICO. He is chief of the neurosurgery department and professor of the neurosurgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, will you continue to tell us then what treatment you rendered the President?

Dr. CARRICO. When this electrocardiac activity ceased, close cardiac massage was begun. Using this, and fluids and airway we were able to maintain fairly good color, apparently fairly good peripheral circulation as monitored by carotid and radial pulses for a period of time. These efforts were abandoned when it was determined by Dr. Clark that there was no continued cardiac response. There was no cerebral response, that is the pupils remained dilated and fixed; there was evidence of anoxia.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe in lay language what anoxia means?

Dr. CARRICO. No oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. Was cardiac massage applied in this situation?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; it was, excellent cardiac massage.

Mr. SPECTER. Were bloods administered to the President?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was any action taken with respect to the adrenalin insufficiency of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; he was given 300 milligrams of hydrocortisone which is an adrenal hormone.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for the administration of that drug?

Dr. CARRICO. It was recalled that the President had been said to have adrenal insufficiency.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at what time was the death of the President pronounced, Doctor?

Dr. CARRICO. At 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Who pronounced the death of the President?

Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Clark, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a precise time fixed or a general time fixed for the point of death?

Dr. CARRICO. This was a general time, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What, in your opinion, was the cause of death?

Dr. CARRICO. The head wound, the head injury.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly?

Dr. CARRICO. Sure.

This was a 5- by 71-cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent?

Dr. CARRICO. No other wound on the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity specifically to look for a small wound which was below the large opening of the skull on the right side of the head?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; at least initially there was no time to examine the patient completely for all small wounds. As we said before, this was an acutely ill patient and all we had time to do was to determine what things were life-threatening right then and attempt to resuscitate him and after which a more complete examination would be carried out and we didn't have time to examine for other wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was such a more complete examination ever carried out by the doctors in Parkland?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; not in my presence.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Dr. CARRICO. As we said initially this was an acute emergency situation and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done this prevented any further examination during this time this was being done. After the President was pronounced dead his wife was there, he was the President, and we felt certainly that complete examination would be carried out and no one had the heart, I believe, to examine him then.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly?

Dr. CARRICO. There was a small wound, 5- to 8-mm. in size, located in the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the Adams apple.

Mr. DULLES. Will you show us about where it was?

Dr. CARRICO. Just about where your tie would be.

Mr. DULLES. Where did it enter?

Dr. CARRICO. It entered?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Dr. CARRICO. At the time we did not know----

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Dr. CARRICO. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here.

Mr. DULLES. I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; just where the tie----

Mr. DULLES. A little bit to the left.

Dr. CARRICO. To the right.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; to the right.

Dr. CARRICO. Yes. And this wound was fairly round, had no jagged edges, no evidence of powder burns, and so forth.

Representative FORD. No evidence of powder burns?

Dr. CARRICO. So far as I know.

Representative FORD. In the front?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described that wound as specifically as you can based upon your observations at the time?

Dr. CARRICO. I believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. And your recollection at the time of those observations?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; an even round wound.

Mr. DULLES. You felt this wound in the neck was not a fatal wound?

Dr. CARRICO. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. That is, absent the head wound, would the President have survived the wound which was present on his neck?

Dr. CARRICO. I think very likely he would have.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to add some facts which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.

First of all, assume that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second at a time when the President was approximately 160 to 250 feet from the weapon, with the President being struck from the rear at a downward angle of approximately 45 degrees, being struck on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula 14 centimeters from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 centimeters below the tip of the right mastoid process.

Assume further that the missile passed through the body of the President striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior aspect of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, but bruising only the apex of the right pleural cavity and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung, then causing a hematoma to the right of the larynx which you have described, and creating a jagged wound in the trachea, then exiting precisely at the point where you observe the puncture wound to exist.

Now based on those facts was the appearance of the wound in your opinion consistent with being an exit wound?

Dr. CARRICO. It certainly was. It could have been under the circumstances.

Mr. SPECTER. And assuming that all the facts which I have given you to be true, do you have an opinion with a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether, in fact, the wound was an entrance wound or an exit wound?

Dr. CARRICO. With those facts and the fact as I understand it no other bullet was found this would be, this was, I believe, was an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any bullets found in the President's body by the doctors at Parkland?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's clothing ever examined by you, Dr. Carrico?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for no examination of the clothing?

Dr. CARRICO. Again in the emergency situation the nurses removed the clothing after we had initially unbuttoned enough to get a look at him, at his chest, and as the routine is set up, the nurses remove the clothing and we just don't take time to look at it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President's body then ever turned over at any point by you or any of the other doctors at Parkland?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy lying on the emergency stretcher from the time he was brought into trauma room one until the treatment at Parkland Hospital was concluded?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that treatment concluded, to the best of your recollection?

Dr. CARRICO. At about 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did you leave the trauma room where the President was brought?

Dr. CARRICO. I left right at one when we decided that he was dead.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the other doctors leave at the same time or did any remain in the trauma room?

Dr. CARRICO. I left before some of the other doctors, I do not remember specifically who was there. I believe Dr. Baxter was, Dr. Jenkins was still there, I believe. And I think Dr. Perry was.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described a number of doctors in the course of your testimony up to this point. Would you state what other doctors were present during the time the President was treated, to the best of your recollection?

Dr. CARRICO. Well, I have already mentioned Dr. Don Curtis, the surgery resident; Martin White, an interne; Dr. Perry was there, Dr. Baxter, Dr. McClelland, a member of the surgery staff; Dr. Ronald Jones, chief surgery resident; Dr. Jenkins, chief of anesthesia; several other physicians whose names I can't remember at the present. Admiral Burkley, I believe was his name, the President's physician, was there as soon as he got to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Carrico, as to how many bullets struck the President?

Dr. CARRICO. At the time of the initial examination I really had no view. In view of what we have been told by you, and the Commission, two bullets would be my opinion.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the additional facts which I have asked you to assume----

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And also based on the autopsy report from Bethesda----

Dr. CARRICO. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Which was made available to you by me.

Dr. CARRICO. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, who, if any one, has talked to you representing the Federal Government in connection with the treatment which you assisted in rendering President Kennedy at Parkland on November 22?

Dr. CARRICO. We have talked to some representatives of the Secret Service, whose names I do not remember.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions, if there was more than one?

Dr. CARRICO. Two occasions, a fairly long interview shortly after the President's death, and then approximately a month or so afterwards a very short interview.

Representative FORD. When you say shortly after the President's death, you mean that day?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir. Within a week maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the substance of the first interview with the Secret Service which you have described as occurring within 1 week?

Dr. CARRICO. This was a meeting in Dr. Shires' office, Dr. Shires, Dr. Perry, Dr. McClelland and myself, and two representatives of the Secret Service in which we went over the treatment.

They discussed the autopsy findings as I recall it, with Dr. Shires, and reviewed the treatment with him, essentially.

Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were you asked specifically at that time, if any?

Dr. CARRICO. I don't recall any specific questions I was asked. In general, I was asked some questions pertaining to his treatment, to the wounds, what I thought they were, and et cetera.

Mr. SPECTER. What opinions did you express at that time?

Dr. CARRICO. Again, I said that on the basis of our initial examination, this wound in his neck could have been either an entrance or exit wound, which was what they were most concerned about, and assuming there was a wound in the back, somewhere similar to what you have described that this certainly would be compatible with an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Were your statements at that time different in any respect with the testimony which you have given here this morning?

Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Were your views at that time consistent with the findings in the autopsy report, or did they vary in any way from the findings in that report?

Dr. CARRICO. As I recall, the autopsy report is exactly as I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were your opinions at that time consistent with the findings of the autopsy report?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify Dr. Shires for the record, please?

Dr. CARRICO. Dr. Shires is chief of the surgery service at Parkland, and chairman of the Department of Surgery at Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately when, to the best of your recollection, did the second interview occur with the Secret Service?

Dr. CARRICO. This was some time in February, probably about the middle of February, and the interview consisted of the agent asking me if I had any further information.

I said I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the total context of the interview?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did I interview you and take your deposition in Dallas, Tex., last Wednesday?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And has that deposition transcript been made available to you this morning?

Dr. CARRICO. It has.

Mr. SPECTER. And were the views you expressed to me in our conversation before the deposition and on the record during the course of the deposition different in any way with the testimony which you have provided here this morning?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir; they were not.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, have you changed your opinion in any way concerning your observations or conclusions about the situation with respect to President Kennedy at any time since November 22, 1963?

Dr. CARRICO. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any notes or writings of any sort in your possession concerning your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. None other than the letter to my children I mentioned to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state briefly the general nature of that for the Commission here today, please.

Dr. CARRICO. This is just a letter written to my children to be read by them later, saying what happened, how I felt about it. And maybe why it happened, and maybe it would do them some good later.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you also make a written report which was made a part of the records of Parkland Hospital which you have identified for the record during the deposition proceeding?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do those constitute the total of the writings which you made concerning your participation in the treatment of the President?

Dr. CARRICO. Right.

Mr. DULLES. You spoke of a letter to your children. I don't want to invade your privacy in this respect in any way, but is there anything in that letter that you think would bear on our considerations here by this Commission?

Dr. CARRICO. No; I don't believe so. This thing doesn't mention the treatment other than to say probably by the time they read the letter it will be archaic.

Mr. DULLES. You spoke about the causes of it all, I don't know whether----

Dr. CARRICO. Just a little homespun philosophy. I just said that there was a lot of extremism both in Dallas and in the Nation as a whole, and in an attitude of extremism a warped mind can flourish much better than in a more stable atmosphere.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Carrico, was the nature of the treatment affected, in your opinion, in any way by the fact that you were working on the President of the United States?

Dr. CARRICO. I don't believe so, sir. We have seen a large number of acutely injured people, and acutely ill people, and the treatment has been carried out enough that this is almost reflex, if you will. Certainly everyone was emotionally affected. I think, if anything, the emotional aspect made us think faster, work faster and better.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in its inquiry on the assassination of President Kennedy?

Dr. CARRICO. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Those conclude my questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you any questions to ask of the Doctor?

Mr. DULLES. Looking back on it, do you think it was probable that death followed almost immediately after this shot in the head?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir; as I said----

Mr. DULLES. I was absent, I am sorry, at that time.

Dr. CARRICO. Yes, sir. Medically, I suppose you would have to say he was alive when he came to Parkland. From a practical standpoint, I think he was dead then.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. When did you say that he arrived, when you first started working on the President?

Dr. CARRICO. It would only be a guess. Probably about 12:35. It was about 12:30 when I got in the emergency room, and I was there 2 or 3 minutes when we were called, and he was there within 2 or 3 minutes.

Representative FORD. So approximately from 12:35 until 1 the President was examined and treatment was given by you and others?

Dr. CARRICO. Yes.

Representative FORD. Have you read and analyzed the autopsy performed by the authorities at Bethesda?

Dr. CARRICO. I have not read it carefully. I have seen it. Mr. Specter showed me parts of it, and I had seen a copy of it earlier, briefly.

Representative FORD. Is there anything in it that you have read that would be in conflict with your observation?

Dr. CARRICO. Nothing at all in conflict. It certainly adds to the observations that we made.

Representative FORD. Have you been interviewed by the press and, if so, when?

Dr. CARRICO. I think I have talked to the press twice.

Mr. Burrus, a reporter for the Dallas Times Herald, talked to me about 5 minutes, probably 3 or 4 days after the President's death, and then a reporter from Time called about 3 or 4 weeks after the President's death, and I talked to him for a very few minutes.

Representative FORD. Did you make any statements in either of these interviews that are different from the observations you have made here this morning?

Dr. CARRICO. Not that I recall.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, could I--off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Doctor, thank you very much. We appreciate your help.

Dr. CARRICO. Certainly. Glad to be here.

TESTIMONY OF DR. MALCOLM PERRY

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Perry, will you be sworn now, please?

Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. PERRY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Malcolm Oliver Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your residence address?

Dr. PERRY. 4115 Parkland, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Your professional address?

Dr. PERRY. 5323 Harley Hines Boulevard.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the address of Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. That is the address of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that situated immediately adjacent to Parkland Memorial Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your age, sir?

Dr. PERRY. 34.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Dr. PERRY. I am a physician and surgeon.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you duly licensed to practice medicine by the State of Texas?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. PERRY. After graduation from Plano High School in 1947, I attended the University of Texas and was duly graduated there in January of 1951 with a degree of Bachelor of Arts.

I subsequently graduated from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in 1956 with a degree of Doctor of Medicine. I served an internship of 12 months at Letterman Hospital in San Francisco, and after 2 more years in the Air Force I returned to Parkland for a 4-year residency in general surgery.

I completed that in----

Mr. DULLES. Where did you serve in the Air Force, by the way?

Dr. PERRY. I was in Spokane, Wash., Geiger Field.

At the completion of my surgery residency in June of 1962, I was appointed an instructor in surgery at the Southwestern Medical School.

But in September 1962, I returned to the University of California at San Francisco to spend a year in vascular surgery. During that time, I took and passed my boards for the certification for the American Board of Surgery.

I returned to Parkland Hospital and Southwestern in September of 1963, was appointed an assistant professor of surgery, attending surgeon and vascular consultant for Parkland Hospital and John Smith Hospital in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had, Dr. Perry, if any, in gunshot wounds?

Dr. PERRY. During my period in medical school and my residency, I have seen a large number, from 150 to 200.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, if any, on November 22d, 1963?

Dr. PERRY. On that day I had come over from the medical school for the usual 1 o'clock rounds with the residents, and Dr. Ronald Jones and I, he being chief surgical resident, were having dinner in the main dining room there in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe how you happened to be called in to render assistance to President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. Somewhere around 12:30, and I cannot give you the time accurately since I did not look at my watch in that particular instant, an emergency page was put in for Dr. Tom Shires, who is chief of the emergency surgical service in Parkland. I knew he was in Galveston attending a meeting and giving a paper, and I asked Dr. Jones to pick up the page to see if he or I could be of assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, at this time I must leave for a session at the Supreme Court, and the hearing will continue. Congressman Ford, I am going to ask you if you will preside in my absence. If you are obliged to go to the Congress, Commissioner Dulles will preside, and I will be available as soon as the Court session is over to be here with you.

(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, please?

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take after learning of the emergency call, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The emergency room is one flight of stairs down from the main dining cafeteria, so Dr. Jones and I went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could.

Representative FORD. May I ask this: In the confirmation of the page call, was it told to you that the President was the patient involved?

Dr. PERRY. It was told to Dr. Jones, who picked up the page, that President Kennedy had been shot and was being brought to Parkland. We went down immediately to the emergency room to await his arrival. However, he was there when we reached it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time you arrived on the scene with the President?

Dr. PERRY. When Dr. Jones and I entered the emergency room, the place was filled with people, most of them officers and, apparently, attendants to the Presidential procession. Dr. Carrico was in attendance with the President in trauma room No. 1 when I walked in. There were several other people there. Mrs. Kennedy was there with some gentleman whom I didn't know. I have the impression there was another physician in the room, but I cannot recall at this time who it was. There were several nurses there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any other doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Dr. PERRY. I think there was another doctor present, but I don't know who it was, I don't recall.

Mr. DULLES. Can I ask a question here, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Certainly.

Mr. DULLES. What is the procedure for somebody taking command in a situation of this kind? Who takes over and who says who should do what? I realize it is an emergency situation. Maybe that is an improper question.

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. But it would be very helpful to me----

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; it is perfectly proper.

Mr. DULLES. In reviewing the situation to see how you acted.

In a military situation, you have somebody who takes command.

Dr. PERRY. We do, too. And it essentially is based on the same kind of thing.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to hear about that.

If it doesn't fit in here----

Mr. SPECTER. It is fine.

Dr. PERRY. It is based on rank and experience, essentially. For example, Dr. Carrico being the senior surgical resident in the area, at the time President Kennedy was brought in to the emergency suite, would have done what we felt was necessary and would have assumed control of the situation being as there were interns and probably medical students around the area, but being senior would take it. This, of course, catapulted me into this because I was the senior attending staff man when I arrived and at that time Dr. Carrico has noted I took over direction of the care since I was senior of all the people there and being as we are surgeons, the department of surgery operates that portion of the emergency room and directs the care of the patients.

Mr. DULLES. Did you try to clear the room of unnecessary people?

Dr. PERRY. This was done, not by me, but by the nurse supervisor, I assume, but several of the people were asked to leave the room. Generally, this is not necessary. In an instance such as this, it is a little more difficult, as you can understand.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. But this care of an acutely injured and acutely injured patients goes on quite rapidly. Over 90,000 a year go through that emergency room, and, as a result, people are well trained in the performance of their duties. There is generally no problem in asking anyone to leave the room because everyone is quite busy and they know what they have to do and are proceeding to do it.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Upon your arrival in the room, where President Kennedy was situated, what did you observe as to his condition?

Dr. PERRY. At the time I entered the door, Dr. Carrico was attending him. He was attaching the Bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in place to assist his respiration.

The President was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the overhead lamp. His shirt, coat, had been removed. There was a sheet over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. He was unresponsive. There was no evidence of voluntary motion. His eyes were open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed.

I did not detect a heart beat and was told there was no blood pressure obtainable.

He was, however, having ineffective spasmodic respiratory efforts.

There was blood on the carriage.

Mr. DULLES. What does that mean to the amateur, to the unprofessional?

Dr. PERRY. Short, rather jerky contractions of his chest and diaphragm, pulling for air.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those respiratory efforts on his part alone or was he being aided in his breathing at that time?

Dr. PERRY. He had just attached the machine and at this point it was not turned on. He was attempting to breathe.

Mr. SPECTER. So that those efforts were being made at that juncture at least without mechanical aid?

Dr. PERRY. Those were spontaneous efforts on the part of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to what you observed of his condition?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium.

I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presence of lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly.

I did not see any other wounds.

I examined the chest briefly, and from the anterior portion did not see anything.

I pushed up the brace on the left side very briefly to feel for his femoral pulse, but did not obtain any.

I did no further examination because it was obvious that if any treatment were to be carried out with any success a secure effective airway must be obtained immediately.

I asked Dr. Carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was a wound, and at that point----

Mr. DULLES. I am a little confused, I thought Dr. Carrico was absent. That was an earlier period.

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he was present.

Mr. DULLES. He was present?

Dr. PERRY. Yes; he was present when I walked in the room and, at that point, I asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one already there. Apparently Dr. Carrico had already asked them to set up the tray.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, backtracking just a bit from the context of the answer which you have just given, would you describe the quantity of blood which you observed on the carriage when you first came into the room where the President was located?

Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, this is an extremely difficult thing. The estimation of blood when it is either on the floor or on drapes or bandages is grossly inaccurate in almost every instance.

As you know, many hospitals have studied this extensively to try to determine whether they were able to do it with any accuracy but they cannot. I can just tell you there was considerable blood present on the carriage and some on his head and some on the floor but how much, I would hesitate to estimate. Several hundred CC's would be the closest I could get but it could be from 200 to 1,500 and I know by experience you cannot estimate it more accurately.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very substantial or minor blood loss?

Dr. PERRY. A substantial blood loss.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you mentioned the President's brace. Could you describe that as specifically as possible?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not examine it. I noted its presence only in an effort to reach the femoral pulse and I pushed it up just slightly so that I might palpate for the femoral pulse, I did no more examination.

Mr. SPECTER. In the course of seeking the femoral pulse, did you observe or note an Ace bandage?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In the brace area?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir. It was my impression, I saw a portion of an Ace Bandage, an elastic supporting bandage on the right thigh. I did not examine it at all but I just noted its presence.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the Ace Bandage cover any portion of the President's body that you were able to observe in addition to the right thigh?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not go any further. I just noted its presence right there at the junction at the hip. It could have been on the lower trunk or the upper thigh, I don't know. I didn't care any further.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue to describe the resuscitative efforts that were undertaken at that time?

Dr. PERRY. At the beginning I had removed my coat and watch as I entered the room and dropped it off in the corner, and as I was talking to Dr. Carrico in regard to the neck wound, I glanced cursorily at the head wound and noted its severe character, and then proceeded with the tracheotomy after donning a pair of gloves. I asked that someone call Dr. Kemp Clark, of neurosurgery, Dr. Robert McClelland, Dr. Charles Baxter, assistant professors of surgery, to come and assist. There were several other people in the room by this time, none of which I can identify. I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy.

This is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. In addition the presence of the wound indicated to me there was possibly an underlaying wound to the neck muscles in the neck, the carotid artery or the jugular vein. If you are going to control these it is necessary that the incision be as low, that is toward the heart or lungs as the wound if you are going to obtain adequate control.

Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way and in lay terms, the purpose for the tracheotomy at that time?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Carrico had very judicially placed an endotracheal tube but unfortunately due to the injury to the trachea, the cuff which is an inflatable balloon on the endotracheal tube was not below the tracheal injury and thus he could not secure the adequate airway that you would require to maintain respiration.

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea.

Will you describe that as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea.

I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to describe what efforts you made to save the President's life?

Dr. PERRY. At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to assist me.

Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you."

At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for better control of circulation.

I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be indicative of the underlying condition.

I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax.

This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax.

Mr. DULLES. How long did this tracheotomy take, approximately?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know that for sure, Mr. Dulles. However, I have--a matter of 3 to 5 minutes, perhaps even less. This was very--I didn't look at the watch, I have done them at those speeds and faster when I have had to. So I would estimate that.

At this point also Dr. Carrico, having previously attached and assisting with the attaching of the anesthesia machine was doing another cut down on the right leg; Dr. Ronald Jones was doing an additional cut down, venous section on the left arm for the insertion of plastic cannula into veins so one may rapidly and effectively infuse blood and fluids. These were being done.

It is to Dr. Carrico's credit, I think he ordered the hydrocortisone for the President having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving measure, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify who Dr. Baxter is?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. Dr. Charles Baxter is, when I noted when I asked for the call, is an assistant professor of surgery also and Dr. McClelland.

Mr. SPECTER. And is Dr. McClelland occupying a similar position at Parkland Memorial Hospital as Dr. Baxter?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Jenkins?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. M. T. Jenkins is professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology and chief of the anesthesia service, and Dr. Giesecke is assistant professor of anesthesiology at Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now identified all of the medical personnel whom you can recollect who were present at the time the aid was being rendered to the President?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; several other people entered the room. I recall seeing Dr. Bashour who is an associate professor of medicine and chief of the cardiology section at Parkland.

Dr. Don W. Seldin, who is professor and chairman of the department of medicine, and I previously mentioned Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and I believe that Dr. Jackie Hunt of the department of anesthesiology was also there, and there were other people, I cannot identify them, several nurses and several others.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. William Kemp Clark arrived at about that time?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark's arrival was first noted to me after the completion of the tracheotomy, and at this point, the cardiotachyscope had been attached to Mr. Kennedy to detect any electrical activity and although I did not note any, being occupied, it was related to me there was initially evidence of a spontaneous electrical activity in the President's heart.

However, at the completion of the tracheotomy and the institution of the sealed tube drainage of the chest, Dr. Clark and I began external cardiac massage. This was monitored by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke who informed us we were obtaining a satisfactory carotid pulse in the neck, and someone whose name I do not know at this time, said they could also feel a femoral pulse in the leg. We continued external cardiac massage, I continued it as Dr. Clark examined the head wound and observed the cardiotachyscope. The exact time interval that this took I cannot tell you. I continued it until Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Clark informed me there was no activity at all, in the cardiotachyscope and that there had been no neurological or muscular response to our resuscitative effort at all and that the wound which the President sustained of his head was a mortal wound, and at that point we determined that he had expired and we abandoned efforts of resuscitation.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify Dr. Clark's specialty for the record, please?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark is professor and chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, and chief of the neurosurgical services at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. Would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the time you were rendering this treatment?

Dr. PERRY. The condition of this area?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY. There was both blood, free blood and air in the right superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the lungs and the heart at that level.

As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or an underlying injury to the lung.

Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high in such instances.

Mr. SPECTER. What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY. Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY. There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax through my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by the injury to the trachea?

Dr. PERRY. They were.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was the pronouncement of death made?

Dr. PERRY. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom was death announced?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why it was Dr. Kemp Clark who pronounced the President had died?

Dr. PERRY. It was the opinion of those of us who had attended the President that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent massive loss of blood, and thus Dr. Clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed the death certificate.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, would the President have survived the injury which he sustained to the neck which you have described?

Dr. PERRY. Barring the advent of complications this wound was tolerable, and I think he would have survived it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the treatment which was rendered to the President by the medical team in attendance at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. PERRY. In essence I have, Mr. Specter. I do not know the exact quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. I mentioned the 300 mg. of hydrocortisone Dr. Carrico ordered and, of course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously recorded. The quantities of substances or any other drugs I have no knowledge of.

Mr. SPECTER. In general you have recounted the treatment?

Dr. PERRY. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated for the record all of the individuals who were in attendance in treating the President that you can recollect at this time?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now describe as specifically as you can, the injury which you noted in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. As I mentioned previously in the record, I made only a cursory examination of the President's head. I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue. My examination did not go any further than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you, to be specific, observe a smaller wound below the large avulsed area which you have described?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. There was.

Mr. SPECTER. Which might have obscured such a wound?

Dr. PERRY. There was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the cartilage.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now describe as particularly as possible the neck wound you observed?

Dr. PERRY. This was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the neck, approximately 5 mm. in diameter.

It was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. Its edges were neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described the neck wound as specifically as you can?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound,

Dr. PERRY. No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point I made the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. It could have been either.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.

Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5-mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.

Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

Dr. PERRY. Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have sufficient facts available to you to render an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in any way with your findings and opinions?

Dr. PERRY. They are quite consistent and I noted initially that they explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate on that last answer, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. There was some considerable speculation, as you will recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from whence they came. Dr. Clark and I were queried extensively in respect to this and in addition Dr. Carrico could not determine whether there were one or two bullets from our initial examination.

I say that because we did what was necessary in the emergency procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination. I did not ascertain the trajectory of any of the missiles. As a result I did not know whether there was evidence for 1 or 2 or even 3 bullets entering and at the particular time it was of no importance.

Mr. SPECTER. But based on the additional factors provided in the autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. The wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled with the wounds I have observed it would appear there were two missiles that struck the President.

Mr. SPECTER. And based on the additional factors which I have provided to you by way of hypothetical assumption, and the factors present in the autopsy report from your examination of that report, what does the source of the bullets seem to have been to you?

Dr. PERRY. That I could not say. I can only determine their pathway, on the basis of these reports within the President's body.

As to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding it, I would not have any speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. From what direction would the bullets have come based on all of those factors?

Dr. PERRY. The bullets would have come from behind the President based on these factors.

Mr. SPECTER. And from the level, from below or above the President?

Dr. PERRY. Not having examined any of the wounds with the exception of the anterior neck wounds, I could not say. This wound, as I noted was about 5 mm., and roughly circular in shape. There is no way for me to determine.

Mr. SPECTER. Based upon a point of entrance in the body of the President which I described to you as being 14 cm. from the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, it would.

In view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, have you been a part of or participated in any press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I have

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom, if anyone, were the press conferences arranged?

Dr. PERRY. The initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, was arranged by Mr. Hawkes who was identified to me as being of the White House Press, and Mr. Steve Landregan of the hospital administration there at Parkland, and Dr. Kemp Clark.

They called me, I was in the operating suite at the time to assist with the care of the Governor, and they called and asked me if it would be possible for me to come down to a press conference.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did that call come to you, Doctor?

Dr. PERRY. I am not real sure about that but probably around 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that call?

Dr. PERRY. I put in a page for Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland since they were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where I met Mr. Hawkes and Dr. Clark. And from there we went up to classrooms one and two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed with gentlemen and ladies of the press.

Mr. SPECTER. In what building was that located?

Dr. PERRY. This was in Parkland Hospital, in the classroom section.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify which news media were present at that time?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; there were numerous people in the room. I would estimate maybe a hundred.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors spoke at that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark and I answered the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. Who spoke first as between you and Dr. Clark?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can the questions which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave?

Dr. PERRY. Mr. Specter, I would preface this by saying that, as you know, I have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that time, and I cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. They, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. The press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as have been given here. I was asked, for example, what I felt caused the President's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help.

Mr. SPECTER. What responses did you give to questions relating to the source of the bullets, if such questions were asked?

Dr. PERRY. I could not. I pointed out that both Dr. Clark and I had no way of knowing from whence the bullets came.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you asked how many bullets there were?

Dr. PERRY. We were, and our reply was it was impossible with the knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were 1 or 2 bullets, or more. We were given, similarly, to the discussion here today, hypothetical situations. "Is it possible that such could have been the case, or such and such?" If it was possible that there was one bullet. To this, I replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable that it was only one bullet, but I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one bullet have been, Dr. Perry, to account for the injuries which you observed in the President, as you stated it?

Dr. PERRY. Since I observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for these two wounds.

Mr. SPECTER. What bony structure was it conceivably?

Dr. PERRY. It required striking the spine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you express a professional opinion that that did, in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have happened?

Dr. PERRY. I expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was conceivable. But, again, Dr. Clark and I emphasized that we had no way of knowing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now recounted as specifically as you can recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that press conference?

Dr. PERRY. I do not recall any specific details any further than that.

Representative FORD. Mr. Specter--was there ever a recording kept of the questions and answers at that interview, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. This was one of the things I was mad about, Mr. Ford. There were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on this side and recorded by some one on this, and I don't know who was recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. There were tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their microphones. I know there were recordings made but who made them I don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were asked, I am sure were misunderstood. It was bedlam.

Representative FORD. I was thinking, was there an official recording either made by the hospital officials or by the White House people or by any government agency?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Representative FORD. A true recording of everything that was said, the questions asked, and the answers given?

Dr. PERRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any reasonably good account in any of the press of this interview?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask----

Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked.

Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what you and others said?

Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported our statements exactly as they were given. They were frequently taken out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or identification as to which person was who.

Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did you say?

Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I don't even recall.

Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a physician were saying, or others were saying?

Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I said yes, it is conceivable.

I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable and not give a straight yes or no answer.

"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was happening over and over again. Of course, Dr. Shires, for example, who was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one press release as chief resident.

Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it.

Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior, whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not impressed with the accuracy of the press reports.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well. Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the President's neck.

You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been impaired?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx, and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed without any difficulty.

Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away?

Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for them to do so.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot wounds?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could observe?

Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs.

Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the President before he was--common knowledge.

Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound or an entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all because he didn't even see it.

Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, and actually I was rather anxious to leave.

Mr. McCLOY. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences.

And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have that as a matter of record.

Is that feasible?

Dr. PERRY. That is, sir.

Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general statement?

Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated in another clipping.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points.

Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this.

Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself, or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the quotes concerning themselves.

Mr. DULLES. That would be correct.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, just any statement alluded to have been made by me.

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better.

Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman?

Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure.

Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings.

There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr. McClelland----

Mr. DULLES. Which paper?

Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry, because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York, Dallas and other cities were to no avail.

The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make them available.

Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports in the news media and what Dr. Perry said at that time, and the facts which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript today.

Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this catalog and comparison might be made?

Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can turn it over.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed.

I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to the actual statements that the doctor has made.

Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today.

So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until we have had a further chance to review this situation.

What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so forth and so on.

Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally, too?

Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg.

Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation.

Mr. SPECTER. I did not.

Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press conferences?

Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas?

Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination that you set upon?

Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen?

Dr. PERRY. The following day.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or your secretary?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in McAllen, Tex.

Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door, and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going, and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your response?

Dr. PERRY. This was denied.

Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions?

Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to you.

Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the Saturday Evening Post?

Dr. PERRY. It did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding the appearance of that article as you felt them to be?

Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am told, that they would not print anything.

However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and published.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the level of accuracy of the contents thereof?

Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an article in print.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur?

Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation?

Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. He did.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?

Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?

Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you had with Comdr. Humes, please?

Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him, as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this be done at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative procedure that you have described?

Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were covered by this blood.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically, Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because you made the comment during the course of the testimony today.

But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck wound prior to the tracheotomy?

Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr. Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room.

However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision.

Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se.

Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck.

Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound?

Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I went to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work?

Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or dead on arrival at Parkland?

Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there was spontaneous activity of the heart.

He was, therefore alive for medical purposes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at Parkland in the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time?

Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present in the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the nurse handed me my coat.

At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest, and some gentlemen whom I did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of President Kennedy?.

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him over and examine the back of the President?

Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had nothing further to offer.

Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the President's body?

Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of the treatment which you have described that you performed?

Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray.

Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for declaring that the President was dead?

Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself particularly since we were the senior people there.

I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest?

Dr. PERRY. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the President's head?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony today described all of the wounds in the President which you have observed?

Dr. PERRY. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was the President of the United States?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal wound.

At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact of what had happened began to hit me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was necessary to do some arterial surgery.

It was not, however, so I did not operate.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating room where Governor Connally was being cared for?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr. Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been completed?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr. Gregory were in attendance?

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition.

Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw.

Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory?

Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s.

Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question? I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then?

Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries.

Representative BOGGS. Surely.

Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room. And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was obvious that this was an extremely serious wound.

Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him?

Dr. PERRY. He was.

Representative BOGGS. That is all.

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed body did you see?

Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest, and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side.

Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it?

Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr. Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr. Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the emergency room just as he was being brought indoors.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that?

Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the point where you received the notice that he was en route until your arrival at the emergency room?

Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr. Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body?

Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the right side under the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means?

Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line?

Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled surgery until they were bringing him directly up.

Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we proceeded with the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time you arrived there?

Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of Anesthesiology.

I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already described up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room, operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the corner, in an even corridor and although I was not there as they took him up, I was in the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the operating suites are.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from the trauma room up to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few minutes.

They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from trauma room two to the operating room?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from the time we had him up. And----

Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until he reached the hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Do you know?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word.

Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald?

Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires?

Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr. McClelland were also at the operation.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr. Oswald please?

Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly.

We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area.

The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off the aorta exposing a large area.

After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, superior mesenteric artery and the vena cava and the placement of vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemmorhage.

At this point, he was being given blood and, of course, the suitable anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. He did not require an anesthetic agent, I am told.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. I think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia residents. We at that point had restored his blood pressure. I don't know the exact recordings, but I was told subsequently it had returned to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to his respiration at that time?

Dr. PERRY. It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower portion of the body.

Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding the medications and the things that were done at this particular time, but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12 units. I believe it is in the record.

At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained very little blood.

I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to the neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit.

We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr. Jenkins informed as neurologically he was not responding, that his reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did that occur?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know, Mr. Specter, I would have to look at the record.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital did that occur?

Dr. PERRY. I don't know that, either.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you approximate the length of time of the operation itself?

Dr. PERRY. 45 minutes or so, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any question but that he was alive during the course of your operative procedures?

Dr. PERRY. Oh, no, no question. The fact is we were very close, I think, to winning the battle. We have seen injuries of this magnitude, they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best of my knowledge I have not seen anyone with this particular set of injuries survive. But at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage and once I had control of the aorta and was able to stop the bleeding of that area I actually felt we had a very good chance since everything had proceeded with expediency.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government in connection with your treatment of President Kennedy, Dr. Perry?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom were you interviewed?

Dr. PERRY. I regret that I do not recall their names. I was interviewed by two gentlemen from the Secret Service approximately the following week, as I recall, and again about a month ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were asked of you on the first interview by the Secret Service?

Dr. PERRY. Essentially in regard to the treatment and once again speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the nature of the wounds were and I was unable to supply them with any adequate information.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the responses given by you to the Secret Service on that first interview essentially the same as you have given today?

Dr. PERRY. With minor variations in wording, they are essentially the same.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the second interview occur with the Secret Service?

Dr. PERRY. I think approximately a month ago, although I am not sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?

Dr. PERRY. A gentleman identified himself as being connected with the Warren Commission and Secret Service. I asked for his credentials which he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information I might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated some of these statements which I made previously, and since I had nothing more to add, why it was terminated.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you supply any information which was in any way different from that which you have testified to here today?

Dr. PERRY. In essence; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On the second interview, did the man identify himself to you as a Secret Service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at the request of the President's Commission?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he said he was with the Warren Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your deposition in Dallas on Wednesday, March 25, 1964?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you provided at that time in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition itself the same as the information which you provided here today concerning the treatment of President Kennedy, your observations and opinions on President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Have I made that transcript available to you this morning before we started this testimony?

Dr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you at any time changed any opinion which you held concerning any matter relating to President Kennedy?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of President Kennedy which became part of the record of Parkland Hospital?

Dr. PERRY. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you identified during the course of the deposition proceeding as being your report?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of the matters which you testified here today?

Dr. PERRY. None.

Mr. McCLOY. What was the condition of, general physical condition, apart from the wounds, of Oswald, as you observed him? Was his body healthy?

Dr. PERRY. I made only a very cursory examination, Mr. McCloy. He appeared rather thin to me.

Mr. McCLOY. Not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type?

Dr. PERRY. No, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles.

Mr. McCLOY. Were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms of any prior disease?

Dr. PERRY. No, I did not look for those.

Mr. DULLES. No distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior operations?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not look. There was no evidence of previous surgical operation on his abdomen, and I didn't examine anything else.

Of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. We went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not have time and we would not see it.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, was the chest tube inserted in the President's chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed?

Dr. PERRY. The chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed into the pleural cavity. However, I have knowledge that it was not.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for its not being placed into the pleural cavity?

Dr. PERRY. I did not speak with certainty but at that point I think that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue with it.

Mr. SPECTER. Had it become apparent at that time that the President expired?

Dr. PERRY. That, I think, is probably true, but I did not state that with certainty because I cannot state the exact sequence. I was employed myself at the time, and I think if it had been determined that this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time, but I am not sure of that. That is speculation.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it ragged or pushed out in any manner?

Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. As I originally described it, the edges were neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. I realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between those two areas.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your view?

Dr. PERRY. It was exuding blood during that procedure and thus I did not examine it very closely. In retrospect, I think it would have been of much more value had I looked at these things more carefully but I had directed my attention to other things.

Mr. SPECTER. Those complete my questions.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy?

Mr. Dulles?

Have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in Bethesda?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir, I have.

Representative FORD. Does your testimony conform to the facts stated in that report?

Dr. PERRY. I think so. At the time the testimony which I have given here of my knowledge without the--was given the same as it was without the basis of that report. But now having had access to that report, I think it ties in very nicely. I see no discrepancies at all. For example, had I known that he had these other two wounds, it would have been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those I could only speculate.

Representative FORD. There is no basic conflict between what you have testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report?

Dr. PERRY. None at all.

Representative BOGGS. Just one question. I presume this question has been asked.

This neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from the front?

Dr. PERRY. There is no way to tell, sir, for sure. As you may recall, passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of that missile in the object it strikes.

For example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. If there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although I consider this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different, had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity.

Representative BOGGS. By that, you mean it would be difficult to determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those circumstances?

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory. If you could, for example, make check points between what the missile might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. But with a relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to those I am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself.

Representative BOGGS. Of course, your main concern was to try to save the President's life and not----

Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the questions began to come, and I was ill-prepared to meet them, but it never occurred to me that, to investigate, because I was busy, and I have done these types of things many times.

It just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards.

Representative FORD. Any questions, Dean Storey?

Mr. STOREY. No, thank you, sir.

Representative FORD. Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. No.

Mr. DULLES. I have one more question I would like to ask.

Did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, I don't know what you call it--the litter?

Dr. PERRY. On the carriage?

Mr. DULLES. On the carriage.

Dr. PERRY. My first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper publications had said there was a bullet found there. I don't know now whether it was or was not. I didn't find it.

Mr. SPECTER. May I say, Mr. Dulles, on that subject, I took several depositions on that subject in the Dallas Hospital and I think we have a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

Dr. PERRY. They were quoted as having removed a bullet from Governor Connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed from Governor Connally's leg.

Mr. SPECTER. There was no bullet removed from Governor Connally's leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment embedded in the femur, as the deposition of Drs. Shaw, Shires, and Gregory will show. But the bullet was found on a stretcher and the question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the stretcher on which President Kennedy was carried, and we have traced the path of Governor Connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two stretchers. And the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers, so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably conclusive that it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.

Representative FORD. How long did it take you to go from where you were when the page came to get down to trauma room No. 1?

Dr. PERRY. A matter of no more than a minute or so, Congressman Ford. It is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on the elevator. We went down the stairs.

Representative FORD. How long after the President was brought in before you went to trauma room No. 1?

Dr. PERRY. That I don't know either. My last recollection in regard to time was approximately 12:30 when I was having lunch prior to rounds, and Dr. Jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs I took off my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some kind of procedure, and I took off my coat and I never looked at the clock until afterwards.

Mr. McCLOY. One more question, I want to get clear.

The extent to which you examined Governor Connally's wounds, as I gather, you were asked to stand by.

Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Rather than to be involved in a close examination of the wounds.

Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So you are not generally familiar?

Dr. PERRY. No, sir; all I did was come into the operating room, put on a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before Dr. Shires started the operation. That was the extent of the episode into the wound, and I stayed there while he carried it down to the lower portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury, and I left the operating room at that point.

Mr. McCLOY. And you didn't see the other two wounds?

Dr. PERRY. I didn't see the other wounds at all, sir.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Dr. Perry.

Your testimony has been most helpful.

(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Tuesday, March 31, 1964

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER AND RONALD SIMMONS

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 31, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis Powell, observers; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Frazier, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of yourself and Mr. Ronald Simmons.

You are, we understand, a firearms expert with the FBI, and Mr. Simmons is a firearms expert with the Weapons System Division at Fort Meade, Md.

You are asked to provide technical information to assist the Commission in this work.

Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, please.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?

Mr. FRAZIER. Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation, assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C.

Mr. EISENBERG. And your education?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have a science degree which I received from the University of Idaho.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your training and experience in the fields of firearms, firearms identification, and ballistics?

Mr. FRAZIER. Beginning in 1937, I was on the University of Idaho Rifle Team, and the following year, 1938. In 1939 I enlisted in the National Guard and for 2 years was on the National Guard Rifle Team firing both small bore, or .22 caliber weapons, and the large bore, .30 caliber weapons, both being of the bolt-action type weapons.

In 1939 and 1940 I instructed in firearms in the Army of the United States, and acquired additional experience in firing of weapons, training in firing at moving targets, additional training in firing the .45 caliber automatic and machineguns. And to further my firearms, practical firearms training, I received in 1942 a training course offered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation after entering on duty with that organization in--on June 9, 1941. That firearms training course consisted of a basic training in handguns--that is, revolvers and automatic pistols, training in autoloading rifles, training in submachineguns, shotguns, and various other types of firearms.

One year later, approximately 1943, I received a specialized administrative firearms course which qualified me for training other agents in the field of law-enforcement type firearms.

Over the past 23 years, I have received the regular FBI firearms training, which is a monthly retraining in firearms, and a periodic, or every 4 years, detailed retraining in the basic FBI firearms--the firearms training with the rifle, submachinegun, shotgun, revolver.

In the FBI, training includes firing both at stationary targets and moving targets with both revolver and rifle and shotgun, and includes firing at slow-fire targets--that is aimed fire for accuracy and rapid fire to increase speed of firing.

Generally in the field of firearms identification, where I have been assigned for 23 years, I received specialized training given in the FBI Laboratory to train me for the position of firearms identification specialist. In that field, we make examinations of bullets and cartridge cases, firearms of various types, for the purpose of identifying weapons as to their caliber, what they are, their manufacturer, their physical characteristics, and determining the type of ammunition which they shoot.

We examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine whether or not they were fired from a particular weapon and make comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular weapon.

That training course lasted for approximately 1 year. However, of course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining firearms.

Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have had.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of examinations you have made of firearms to identify the firearms?

Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you written any articles on this subject?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I have prepared an article for the "FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as a reprint and provided to any organization or person interested in the general field of firearms identification.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you read most of the literature on the subject?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. McCLOY. Is there any classical book on this subject?

Mr. FRAZIER. There are a number of fairly good texts.

The basic one, originally published in 1936, is by Maj. Julian S. Hatcher, who later, as a general, rewrote his book "Firearms Investigation, Identification, and Evidence."

There are many other books published on the subject.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I ask that this person be accepted as a qualified witness on firearms?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a rifle marked Commission Exhibit 139.

Are you familiar with this weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do you recognize it by serial number or by your mark?

Mr. FRAZIER. By serial number on the barrel, and by my initials which appear on various parts of the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this is the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22.

Can you describe this rifle by name and caliber?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a caliber 6.5 Italian military rifle, commonly referred to in the United States as a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano.

It is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle.

Do you wish a general physical description of the weapon at this time?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, no; not at this time.

Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm.

Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain what the caliber is a measure of?

Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber is the measure of the distance across the raised portions or the lands in the barrel. The groove diameter, or the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly larger--in this case between 7/1000ths and 8/1000ths of an inch larger than the actual bore diameter.

The caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you made the identification of this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. I identified it pictorially by comparing it with pictures in reference books. And the actual identification was of the manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which indicated it was an Italian military rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you did that?

Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here.

The caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two ways--one, by comparing the barrel with 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that it actually fit the weapon. And, secondly, we measured the width of the barrel with, a micrometer. And in that connection, I would like to point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the groove width in the barrel.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that sulphur cast?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that was made by you or under your supervision?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it was made by me.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 540.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 540, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why this Exhibit 139 might be thought to be a 7.35-or 7.65-caliber rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. From outward appearances, it could be a 7.35-mm. rifle, because, basically, that is what it is. But its mechanism has been rebarreled with a 6.5-mm. barrel. Photographs of the weapons are similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of the original model 38 Italian military rifle, which is 7.35 mm.

Early in the Second World War, however, the Italian Government barreled many of these rifles with a 6.5-mm. barrel, since they had a quantity of that ammunition on hand. I presume that would be the most logical way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is the 6.5-caliber weapon distinguished from the 7.35-caliber weapon by name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is; it is by the model number. The model 91/38 designates the 6.5-mm. rifle, whereas the model 38 designates the 7.35.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of the various markings on the rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Actually, I think we forwarded those photographs to the Commission.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are these the photographs that you took, or had taken?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Has the Federal Bureau of Investigation been supplied with information concerning the meanings and significances of these various markings?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the source of that information?

Mr. FRAZIER. This information came to us by mail as a result of an inquiry of the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service, abbreviated SIFAR, by letter dated March 26, 1964, through the FBI representative in Rome, Italy.

This information is classified as secret by the Italian Government, who have advised that the material may be released to the Commission. However, they desire the retention of the information in a secret category.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this essential to the proof?

If it is not, I think we would rather not have it, because the fewer things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record.

Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons particularly?

The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. All right.

Now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly describe the markings shown on these photographs?

Mr. FRAZIER. The first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me.

These photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs are marked No. 1, No. 2, et cetera, on the back.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are.

Photograph No. 1 is an overall photograph of the rifle.

Photograph No. 2 is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial number C2766.

Photograph No. 3 is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures 1940, which is the manufacturer's date, the words "Made Italy" and a figure in the form of a crown, under that the letters "R-E," and then a portion of the word "Terni."

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the significance of "Terni?"

Mr. FRAZIER. Terni is the location for an Italian ordnance plant in Italy where rifles are made, and it is apparent that this weapon was made in Terni, because it is stamped with that name.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the significance of that crown?

Mr. FRAZIER. I think that would be just an Italian identification mark or proof mark.

Mr. EISENBERG. And are the words "Made Italy" likely to have been put on the weapon at the time of manufacture or subsequently?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the words "Made Italy" would be stamped on the weapon by a purchaser or an individual desiring to send the weapon to another country, to establish actually its origin.

Photograph No. 4 is again of the top of the weapon showing the same information--1940, "Made Italy," the crown, the place it was made, and the inscription "Caliber 6.5" across the top of the rear sight.

Photograph No. 5 shows a small circle which appears on the forward end of the receiver, or that portion into which the barrel is screwed, with the words "TNI" in the circle, and over these letters is again a small crown. This could be a proof mark or an inspector's stamp.

Photograph No. 6 is of an inscription on the side of the rear sight which has the appearance of the letter "i," or the letter "l," followed by a capital letter "A," and the capital letter "G," with the numbers "47," and "2," stamped underneath them. I do not know what the significance of that is. It could be, again, an inspector's stamp or a proof mark of some type.

Photograph No. 7 is made of the cocking piece on the end of the bolt, which gives the word "Rocca." This apparently would be the name of the manufacturer of that part of the rifle.

Photograph No. 8 is an inscription "PG" on the top of the bolt of the weapon. This inscription--I do not know of my own knowledge what that is--but it could be the mark of a manufacturer or a proof mark or an inspector's mark made at the time the handle was made to be welded to the bolt.

Photograph No. 9 was taken of the bottom of the receiver of the weapon, with the stock removed. It shows the Number "40," which could refer again to the year of manufacture, 1940, on the receiver, and at the rear of the photograph a small lettered inscription referring again to an inspector stamp, a proof stamp, of some nature. The identity of this, I do not know.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these photographs be admitted as a group under the number 541.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to put all of them in under one number?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. They have the subnumbers on the back, which will differentiate them.

The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 541, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why someone might call Exhibit 139 a German-made Mauser rifle or a Mauser bolt-action rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. The Mauser was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, and the basic bolt-action rifle, from which many others were copied. And since this uses the same type of bolt system, it may have been referred to as a Mauser for that reason.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon show?

Mr. FRAZIER. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually say how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we first got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair condition. In other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon----

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last.

Mr. FRAZIER. It showed the effects of wear and corrosion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon used when it is sold into the United States?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a surplus type of weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that it is impossible to attribute any given amount of wear to the last user?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is impossible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you measured the dimensions of this rifle assembled, and disassembled?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us that information?

Mr. FRAZIER. The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even.

Mr. McCLOY. With the scope?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, with the scope.

The CHAIRMAN. And the sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4-3/4 ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "this portion," Mr. Frazier, I don't think that is coming down clear in the record. I wonder whether you could rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang."

Mr. FRAZIER. The tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. From the end of that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is 28.9 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the length of the longest component when the rifle is dissembled, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. 34.8 inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden portion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle in terms of----

Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to the sight, can I ask a question?

Mr. EISENBERG. Surely.

Mr. McCLOY. How soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. We received the rifle the following morning.

Mr. McCLOY. Received it in Washington?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you immediately made your examination of it then?

Mr. FRAZIER. We made an examination of it at that time, and kept it temporarily in the laboratory.

It was then returned to the Dallas Police Department, returned again to the laboratory--the second time on November 27th, and has been either in the laboratory's possession or the Commission's possession since then.

Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that it showed signs of some corrosion and wear?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good shape?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion or wear.

Mr. McCLOY. Was there metal fouling in the barrel?

Mr. FRAZIER. I did not examine it for that.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as you found it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean barrel.

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle? Magnification, country of origin?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope.

It is stamped "Optics Ordnance Incorporated, Hollywood California," and under that is the inscription "Made in Japan." It is a very inexpensive Japanese telescopic sight.

The mount attached to it was also made in Japan.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you removed the mount?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many holes did you find drilled into the receiver?

Mr. FRAZIER. There are two holes in the receiver.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you form an opinion as to whether these were original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been formed over the original holes?

Mr. FRAZIER. Normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. In the sight itself there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think, based on your experience with types of screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the original holes for the screws?

Mr. FRAZIER. I could not say--I could not answer that specifically. However, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I now hand you a rifle which is marked C-250. Are you familiar with this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe it briefly?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is an identical rifle physically to the rifle Commission's Exhibit 139, in that it is the same caliber, 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Italian Military rifle, Model 91/38.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle whether the scope was mounted on Exhibit 139 by the firm which is thought to have sold Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Would you repeat that, please?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.

Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt?

Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination.

In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in approximately this position on the frame of the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so that the record is clear could you----

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring.

Mr. EISENBERG. On the----

Mr. FRAZIER. On the C-250 rifle.

When we received the rifle C-250, we examined the mount and found that two of the holes had been enlarged, and that screws had been placed through them and threaded into the receiver of the C-250 rifle.

The third hole in the mount had not been used.

We also found that an identical scope to the one on the Commission's rifle 139 was present on the C-250 rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were the screws used in mounting the C-250 rifle--in mounting the scope on the C-250 rifle--type of screws as those used in mounting the scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the holes were the same dimensions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are. And the threads in the holes are the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like C-250 admitted into evidence as Commission Exhibit 542.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 542, and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. At this time I will interrupt to say I must now leave to attend a session of the Supreme Court, and I will return at the conclusion of the session.

In the meantime, Mr. McCloy will preside at the Commission hearing, and in the event he should be required to leave, Mr. McCloy, whatever Commissioner is here will conduct the examination in his absence.

(At this point, Chairman Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you examined the sling on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally manufactured as a rifle sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling for a rifle. It appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera bag, musical-instrument strap, or something of that nature.

We have made attempts to identify it, with no success.

Mr. EISENBERG. Apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the C-139 rifle--in the Commission Exhibit 139 rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You would suggest, I gather, Mr. Frazier, that this is a homemade sling?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming off the excess ends of the two straps to fit.

Mr. McCLOY. How would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? Would it be wrapped around the base of your----

Mr. FRAZIER. I find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at all. The sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm through it.

Mr. McCLOY. You get quite a leverage with that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, you do, in one direction. But it is rather awkward to wrap the forward hand into the sling in the normal fashion.

Mr. McCLOY. This gives a pretty tight----

Mr. FRAZIER. It can be used. But I don't feel that actually the position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use of the sling goes.

Mr. McCLOY. But certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even in this crude form?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. It would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't have a sling? It would make it more accurate?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would assist more in offhand than any other type of shooting, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the experiment, so to speak, which you had Klein's conduct, would you form an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on Exhibit 139--was likely to have been mounted--by Klein's, or likely to have been mounted subsequently?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I could not deduce from that--from the way the scope is mounted--who mounted it. I can only say that the two are mounted in identical fashion. And it is possible that the same person or persons mounted the two scopes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle, the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of rounds you desire to load.

The maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. However, the weapon can be loaded with a clip holding 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 round.

This is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt. The weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. It picks up one cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon, and the bolt is then locked by turning down.

To fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection mechanism?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The extraction is merely by raising the bolt and drawing it to the rear. When the cartridge is first loaded, the rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a projection in the ejection port called the ejector. The ejector strikes on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to fire the next shot, is any further action necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if remaining cartridges are in the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you find on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. The only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "SMI," on the base of the clip, and a number, 952. The significance of that number I am not aware of. It could be a part number or a manufacturer's code number.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why someone might call that a five-shot clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger ammunition, such as a .30-06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip, whereas this one actually holds six.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the ammunition come in the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible--and I say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily part of the same shipment.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you receive a clip with that rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the clip later?

Mr. FRAZIER. They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is it commonly available?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you use that rifle without the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you can.

Mr. McCLOY. What is the advantage of the clip?

Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one shot at a time.

Mr. McCLOY. The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.

Mr. McCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The same as the .30-06?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked Commission Exhibit 141. Are you familiar with this cartridge?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received this cartridge for examination in the FBI laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the rifle at the time it was recovered.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that cartridge in terms of name, manufacturer, and country of origin?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co., at East Alton, Ill.

It is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type. Cartridges of this type which I have examined, having this type of bullet, have bullets weighing 160 to 161 grains.

Mr. McCLOY. When you mentioned that cartridge as being a Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a Mannlicher 6.5 Schoenauer?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am not familiar with that.

Mr. McCLOY. That is the normal sporting rifle--that Mannlicher Schoenauer is the normal 6.5 Austrian sporting rifle that you buy. I just wondered if it was the same cartridge.

Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry. I don't know whether there is a distinction between these two or not.

Mr. McCLOY. I happen to have one of those. And I was just wondering if it is the same cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a series of three cartridge cases. I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received these cartridge cases on two different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison with the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do these cases have your mark on them?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they do. Each is marked with my initials and the inscription for identification purposes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these cartridge cases into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544 and 545.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 543, 544, and 545 and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Will you introduce evidence to show where they came from?

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the hearings where they came from. This witness is able to identify them only as to his examination.

Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. I understand that witness cannot identify them. But I simply asked for the record whether you have evidence to show where they did come from.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.

Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?

Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.

Mr. McCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5 millimeters?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6--6.65 millimeters.

The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.

On the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is 6/100ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet 6/100ths of an inch wide.

I believe that is a description of the bullet.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 with the type of ammunition you have been looking at to determine the muzzle velocity of that type of ammunition in this weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The tests were run to determine the muzzle velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., on December 2, 1963, using two different lots of ammunition--Lot No. 6,000 and Lot No. 6,003.

I might point out that there were four lots of ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co., only two of which are available.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give the results?

Mr. FRAZIER. Possibly I can give the results shot by shot, so the record will show each one, and then give an average for them.

Mr. EISENBERG. Fine.

Mr. FRAZIER. The first shot, Lot 6,000, the velocity was 2199.7 feet per second.

Shot No. 2, Lot 6,000, velocity 2,180.3 feet per second.

The third shot, velocity--same lot--velocity 2,178.9 feet per second.

The third shot, velocity--and this is Lot No. 6,003--velocity was 2,184.8 feet per second.

The fourth shot, Lot No. 6,003, was 2,137.6 feet per second.

Fifth shot, Lot No. 6,000, 2,162.7 feet per second.

The sixth shot, Lot 6,003, 2,134.8 feet per second.

An average of all shots of 2,165 feet per second.

Mr. EISENBERG. How would you characterize the differences between the muzzle velocities of the various rounds in terms of whether that difference was a large or small difference?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is a difference well within the manufacturer's accepted standards of velocity variations. They permit in their standard ammunition manual, which is a guide to the entire industry in the United States, a 40-foot-per-second, plus or minus, variation shot to shot in the same ammunition.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you calculated the muzzle energy of this 6.5 millimeter ammunition in this weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was furnished by letter to the Commission. Yes, sir--the muzzle energy was calculated on the basis of the average velocity of 2,165 feet per second as 1,676 foot-pounds.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is a calculation rather than a measurement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Necessarily a calculation, because it is merely a term used to compare one bullet against another rather than for any practical purposes because--because of the bullet's extremely light weight.

The bullet's velocity and weight, and gravity enter into the determination of its energy in foot-pounds.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano with which we are dealing an accurate type of ammunition as opposed to other types of military ammunition--as compared, I should say, with other types of military ammunition?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say it is also accurate. As other types of ammunition the 6.5 millimeter cartridge or bullet is a very accurate bullet, and ammunition of this type as manufactured in the United States would give fairly reasonable accuracy. Other military cartridges may or may not give accurate results.

But the cartridge inherently is an accurate cartridge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this type of cartridge readily available for purchase?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. Information we have indicates that 2 million rounds of this ammunition was reimported into this country and placed on sale.

Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 141, the cartridge found in the chamber--I should say, was found in the chamber. Do you draw any inference from the fact that the cartridge was found in the chamber? In your experience, does one automatically reload whether or not one intends to fire, or is there a special significance in the fact that the cartridge had been chambered?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, there would be no inference which I could draw based on human behavior as to why someone would or would not reload a cartridge. Normally, if you were--in my experience--shooting at some object, and it was no longer necessary to shoot, you would not reload.

You may or may not reload. It would be a normal thing to automatically reload. But not necessarily in every instance.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any information of your own knowledge as to whether this cartridge was in the chamber or not at the time the rifle was found?

Mr. FRAZIER. Only as furnished to me--it was submitted as having been removed from the rifle by the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. McCLOY. As having been removed from the chamber?

Mr. FRAZIER. From the chamber of the rifle.

Mr. McCLOY. But you did not remove it yourself?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the cartridge-case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show us those diagrams?

Mr. FRAZIER. In this diagram----

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier.

Were these diagrams prepared by you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547?

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547, and were received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of your tests by using these diagrams, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission's Exhibit 139. In the top portion of Exhibit 546, the barrel was held depressed at a 45-degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle to which the cartridge case was ejected.

With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge cases landed within an 85-inch circle located 80 degrees to the right front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 80 degrees to the right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 inches from the ejection port.

Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.

The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the horizontal condition.

All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port.

In both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held 32 inches above the floor.

In the second test performed, Commission Exhibit 547, the test was made to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would fly as it was being ejected.

After ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. And with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed 12 inches above the level of the ejection port.

Mr. EISENBERG. In making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal degree of rifle pull?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the effect would be with different speeds of the bolt.

Mr. EISENBERG. How did you select the distance above the floor at which the rifle was fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. We selected a distance which we thought might be typical of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly how the weapon had been fired previously. Thirty-two inches happened to be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of the weapon readily.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you three Commission Exhibits, 510, 511, and 512, which are photographs which have been identified as giving the location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--Nos. 543, 544, and 545, on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. I ask you to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to determine the ejection patterns.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge cases are--two of them--against the wall. There is a stack of boxes fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could very well have been affected by the boxes. That is, they could strike the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown in the photographs.

Mr. EISENBERG. In making your tests, did you notice much ricochet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; considerable. Each time a cartridge case hit the floor, it would bounce anywhere from 8 inches to 10 to 15 feet.

Mr. McCLOY. Make a lot of noise?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; a clatter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 to determine its accuracy under rapid-fire conditions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. A series of three tests were made. When we first received the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so we tested it at short range. After we had obtained sample bullets and cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it. Three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same time.

The first tests were made at 15 yards, and shooting at a silhouette target.

Mr. EISENBERG. A silhouette of a man?

Mr. FRAZIER. A paper silhouette target of a man; yes.

Possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them.

Mr. EISENBERG. These targets were made by you or in your presence?

Mr. FRAZIER. These are actually copies of the actual targets. I have the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. However, the markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to introduce the copies for the reasons given, as Commission Exhibits 548 and 549.

Mr. McCLOY. You have made these copies, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I had them made. They are actual xerox copies of the original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed around the holes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record.

Mr. Frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this experiment.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you one of the three that fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify your target as distinguished from the other two?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have the target that you fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fired--yes, I do. However, another examiner also fired at this same target.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of that target to be made?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you have that with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you marked it yet?

Mr. EISENBERG. No. That would be 548.

Mr. McCLOY. Suppose you identify that copy.

Mr. EISENBERG. This copy that you are presenting to us has initials at the bottom "CC-R-CK"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the numbers and letters D-2 on the right-hand margin?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that has been copied under your supervision?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. That can be admitted as Commission Exhibit 548.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 548, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Now, is Commission Exhibit 548 an accurate copy of the target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also have a copy here which has the name on it Killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other target. Is this an accurate copy which you had prepared?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was the target fired by Charles Killion in my presence.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 549?

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 549, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the accuracy of the weapon under those conditions.

Mr. EISENBERG. And could you give us the names of the three agents who participated?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and myself.

Mr. EISENBERG. And the date?

Mr. FRAZIER. November 27, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. How many shots did each agent fire?

Mr. FRAZIER. Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired three.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the times within which each agent fired the three shots?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on Commission Exhibit No. 549.

Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds was seven.

Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you at a later date confirm the exact time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if you happen to come back by oral testimony?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And your time, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is Exhibit 548.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549?

Mr. FRAZIER. The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. 549, approximately 2-1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three shots.

On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were--landed in a three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the aiming point.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the second series of tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. The second test which was performed was two series of three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose accuracy.

We did not attempt--I did not attempt to maintain in that test an accurate rate of fire.

This is the actual target which I fired.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that target has all six holes in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550.

Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the two series?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches.

That series was fired in 4.6 seconds.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the date?

Mr. FRAZIER. That also was on the 27th of November.

Mr. EISENBERG. Same date as the first tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the four targets we fired here.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, 553, and 554.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 through 554, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four targets?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches high and within a 3-1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 seconds.

The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4-1/2 to 5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of the aiming point.

Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2-1/2 inches high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point.

These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds.

And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right of the aiming point, all within a 3-1/2-inch circle.

Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right of the aiming point?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we had fired five or six shots.

Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. Have you prepared a diagram of the telescopic sight?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show us that now to help illustrate the point you are making.

Let me mark that.

This diagram was prepared by you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. EISENBERG. And illustrates----

Mr. FRAZIER. Excuse me. The actual diagram was copied by me from a textbook, showing a diagrammatic view of how a telescopic crosshair ring is mounted in a telescope.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is a generalized diagram, rather than a diagram of the specific scope on Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is. However, I have checked the scope on Exhibit 139 and found it to be substantially the same as this diagram.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 555?

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 555, and received in evidence.)

Mr. FRAZIER. Commission Exhibit No. 555 is a diagrammatic drawing of the manner in which the crosshair ring is mounted in Exhibit 139, showing on the right-hand side of the diagram a circular drawing indicating the outer part of the tube, with an inner circle with a crossed line in it representing the crosshairs in the telescope.

There is an elevation-adjusting screw at the top, which pushes the crosshair ring down against a spring located in the lower left-hand portion of the circle, or which allows the crosshair ring to come up, being pushed by the spring on the opposite side of the ring. There is a windage screw on the right-hand side of the scope tube circle which adjusts the crosshair ring laterally for windage adjustments.

The diagram at the left side of Commission's Exhibit 555 shows diagrammatically the blade spring mounted in the telescope tube which causes the ring to be pressed against the adjusting screws.

We found in this telescopic sight on this rifle that this ring was shifting in the telescope tube so that the gun could not be sighted-in merely by changing the screws. It was necessary to adjust it, and then fire several shots to stabilize the crosshair ring by causing this spring to press tightly against the screws, to the point that we decided it would not be feasible to completely sight the weapon inasfar as windage goes, and in addition found that the elevation screw could not be adjusted sufficiently to bring the point of impact on the targets down to the sighting point.

And, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to the right.

Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand it, the construction of the scope is such that after the elevation or windage screw has been moved, the scope does not--is not--automatically pushed up by the blade spring as it should be, until you have fired several shots?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; that is true--when the crosshairs are largely out of the center of the tube. And in this case it is necessary to move the crosshairs completely up into the upper portion of the tube, which causes this spring to bear in a position out of the ordinary, and for this windage screw to strike the side or the sloping surface of the ring rather than at 90 degrees, as it shows in Exhibit 555. With this screw being off center, both in windage and elevation, the spring is not strong enough to center the crosshair ring by itself, and it is necessary to jar it several times, which we did by firing, to bring it to bear tightly so as to maintain the same position then for the next shots.

Mr. EISENBERG. And because of the difficulty you had stabilizing the crosshair, you did not wish to pursue it to a further refinement, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. We sighted the scope in relatively close, fired it, and decided rather than fire more ammunition through the weapon, we would use these targets which we had fired.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, once the crosshairs had been stabilized, did you find that they stayed, remained stabilized?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they did.

Mr. EISENBERG. How long do you think the crosshairs would remain stabilized in Exhibit 139, assuming no violent jar?

Mr. FRAZIER. They should remain stabilized continuously.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know when the defect in this scope, which causes you not to be able to adjust the elevation crosshair in the manner it should be--do you know when this defect was introduced into the scope?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I do not. However, on the back end of the scope tube there is a rather severe scrape which was on this weapon when we received it in the laboratory, in which some of the metal has been removed, and the scope tube could have been bent or damaged.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you first test the weapon for accuracy on November 27th?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you any way of determining whether the defect pre-existed November 27th?

Mr. FRAZIER. When we fired on November 27th, the shots were landing high and slightly to the right. However, the scope was apparently fairly well stabilized at that time, because three shots would land in an area the size of a dime under rapid-fire conditions, which would not have occurred if the interior mechanism of the scope was shifting.

Mr. EISENBERG. But you are unable to say whether--or are you able to say whether--the defect existed before November 27th? That is, precisely when it was introduced?

Mr. FRAZIER. As far as to be unable to adjust the scope, actually, I could not say when it had been introduced. I don't know actually what the cause is. It may be that the mount has been bent or the crosshair ring shifted.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, when you were running, let's say, the last test, could you have compensated for this defect?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you could take an aiming point low and to the left and have the shots strike a predetermined point. But it would be no different from taking these targets and putting an aiming point in the center of the bullet-impact area. Here that would be the situation you would have--an aiming point off to the side and an impact area at the high right corner.

Mr. EISENBERG. If you had been shooting to score bulls-eyes, in a bulls-eye pattern, what would you have--what action, if any, would you have taken, to improve your score?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would have aimed low and to the left--after finding how high the bullets were landing; you would compensate by aiming low left, or adjusting the mount of the scope in a manner which would cause the hairlines to coincide with the point of impact.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had you had with the rifle before the last series of four targets were shot by you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I had fired it possibly 20 rounds, 15 to 20 rounds, and in addition had operated the bolt repeatedly.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does practice with this weapon--or would practice with this weapon--materially shorten the time in which three shots could be accurately fired?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; very definitely.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would practice without actually firing the weapon be helpful--that is, a dry-run practice?

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be most helpful, particularly in a bolt-action weapon, where it is necessary to shift your hand from the trigger area to the bolt, operate the bolt, and go back to the trigger after closing the bolt.

Mr. EISENBERG. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think three shots could be fired accurately within 5-1/2 seconds if no rest was utilized?

Mr. FRAZIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary or needed or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in that length of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or 4-inch circle without either resting or possibly using the sling as a support--I doubt that you could accomplish that.

Mr. EISENBERG. How--these targets at which you fired stationary at 100 yards--how do you think your time would have been affected by use of a moving target?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would have slowed down the shooting. It would have lengthened the time to the extent of allowing the crosshairs to pass over the moving target.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give an amount?

Mr. FRAZIER. Approximately 1 second. It would depend on how fast the target was moving, and whether it was moving away from you or towards you or at right angles.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think you could shorten your time with further practice with the weapon?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate on that?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fired three shots in 4.6 seconds at 25 yards with approximately a 3-inch spread, which is the equivalent of a 12-inch spread at a hundred yards. And I feel that a 12-inch relative circle could be reduced to 6 inches or even less with considerable practice with the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in the 4.6-second time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I would say from 4.8 to 5 seconds, in that area--4.6 is firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated, I think.

Mr. EISENBERG. I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.

Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.

And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and third shots was 5-1/2 seconds.

Based on those assumptions, Mr. Frazier, approximately what lead would the assassin have had to give his target to compensate for its movement--and here I would disregard any possible defect in the scope.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say he would have to lead approximately 2 feet under both such situations. The lead would, of course, be dependent upon the direction in which the object was moving, primarily. If it is moving away from you, then, of course, the actual lead of, say, 2 feet which he would have to lead would be interpreted as a considerably less lead in elevation above the target, because the target will move the 2 feet in a direction away from the shooter, and the apparent lead then would be cut to one foot or 12 inches or 8 inches or something of that nature, due to the movement of the individual.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made calculations to achieve the figures you gave?

Mr. FRAZIER. I made the calculations, but I don't have them with me.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply these to us, either in further testimony or by letter, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have one object here, a diagram which will illustrate that lead, if you would like to use that. This is drawn to scale from those figures which you quoted as building height, and distances of 175 feet and 265 feet.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these figures are approximations of the figures believed to be involved in the assassination.

Will you supply the data at a later date?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I can furnish that.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I have permission to introduce this as 556?

Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 556, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show the lead in that diagram, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. In Commission Exhibit 556, it shows a triangular diagram with the vertical line on the left-hand side illustrating the height of the building. The figures of a 60-foot building height plus----

Mr. EISENBERG. That is height of the muzzle above the ground?

Mr. FRAZIER. No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the ground, with an assumed 2-foot height in addition to accommodate the height of the rifle above the possible--the possible height of the rifle above the window sill.

The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. The time of flight of the bullet of approximately 8/100ths of a second and, again, it was necessary to assume--the time of flight of the bullet from the window to this first location of 175 feet is approximately 8/100ths of a second, which means a 2-foot lead on the target. That is, the target would move 2 feet in that interval of time, thereby necessitating shooting slightly ahead of the target to hit your aiming point. That has been diagrammatically illustrated by a 2-foot distance laid off on this rectangular block here, and two lines, very fine lines, drawn back towards the window area.

The right-hand side of Commission's 556 shows the same rectangular block, again with two lines drawn to it, one illustrating the point of aim and the other the amount of lead which would be necessary to strike an object aimed at which was moving, according to the time of flight of the projectile.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you calculated the speed of the car by translating the figures on total time elapsed between first and third shots?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The time--the speed of the moving object was calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles per hour.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you said before that in order to give this 2-foot lead, you would have to aim 2 inches--for a target going away from you, you would have to aim 2 inches above the target, or in front of the target.

Mr. FRAZIER. 2 feet in front of the target, which would interpolate into a much lower actual elevation change.

Mr. EISENBERG. The elevation change would be 2 inches, is that it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, no. It would be on the order of 6 to 8 inches.

Mr. EISENBERG. 6 to 8 inches?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your 2-inch figure?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall.

Mr. EISENBERG. But it is 6 to 8 inches in elevation?

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question?

Using that telescopic lens, how would you aim that rifle to achieve that distinction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, it would be necessary to hold the crosshairs an estimated distance off the target, of say, 6 inches over the intended target, so what when the shot was fired the crosshairs should be located about 6 inches over your target, and in the length of time that the bullet was in the air and the length of time the object was moving, the object would move into actually, the path of the bullet in approximately 1/10th to 13/100ths of a second.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the target of the assassin was the center of the President's head, and he wanted to give a correct lead, where would he have aimed, if we eliminate the possibility of errors introduced by other factors?

Mr. FRAZIER. He would aim from 4 to 6 inches--approximately 2 inches, I would say, above the President's head, which would be actually 6 inches above his aiming point at the center of the head.

Mr. EISENBERG. How difficult is it to give this--a lead of this size--to this type of target?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would not be difficult at all with a telescopic sight, because your target is enlarged four times, and you can estimate very quickly in a telescopic sight, inches or feet or lead of any desired amount.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would it be substantially easier than it would be with an open or peep sight?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. It would be much more difficult to do with the open iron sights, the notched rear sight and the blade front sight, which is on Exhibit 139.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you have been able to calculate the precise amount of lead which should be given, because you have been given figures. If you had been in the assassin's position, and were attempting to give a correct lead, what lead do you think you would have estimated as being the necessary lead?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would have been a very small amount, in the neighborhood of a 3-inch lead.

Mr. EISENBERG. As opposed to the 6 or 8 inches?

Mr. FRAZIER. As opposed to about 6 inches, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What would the consequence of the mistake in assumption as to lead be--that is, if you gave a 3-inch lead rather than the correct lead?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be a difference of a 3-inch variation in the point of impact on the target.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if you had aimed at the center of the President's head, and given a 3-inch lead, again eliminating other errors, where would you have hit, if you hit accurately?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be 3 inches below the center of his head--from the top--it would be not the actual center from the back, but the center would be located high. The bullet would strike at possibly the base of the skull.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, suppose you had given no lead at all and aimed at that target and aimed accurately. Where would the bullet have hit?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would hit the base of the neck--approximately 6 inches below the center of the head.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, would you have tried to give a lead at all, if you had been in that position?

Mr. FRAZIER. At that range, at that distance, 175 to 265 feet, with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead--I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question?

In your experimentation, in your firing of those shots that you have testified to a little while back, when you fired the first shot, was the shot in the chamber, or did you have to push it into the chamber by use of the bolt?

Mr. FRAZIER. This was fired with a loaded chamber, and timed from the time of this first shot until the last shot.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you shoot offhand or did you shoot with a rest?

Mr. FRAZIER. We shot with a rest, both the other individuals and myself, on each occasion, with one arm resting on a bench or a table.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you prone, or were you standing up?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, we were sitting, actually, sitting or kneeling, in order to bring the arm down to the rest we were using.

Mr. McCLOY. One other question.

You keep referring to, and the questions kept referring to, "lead." By "lead," in this instance, you would mean height above the aiming point rather than----

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. To the right, let's say, of the aiming point?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. Because it was a going away shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That is all.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question?

Where did you conduct these tests?

Mr. FRAZIER. The targets were fired both on the indoor range in the FBI range here in Washington and the 100-yard tests were fired at the Quantico, Va., FBI ranges.

Representative BOGGS. Have any tests--have there been any simulated tests in the building in Texas?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't know, sir.

Representative BOGGS. But the FBI has not conducted any?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not to my knowledge. There may have been measurements and things of that nature taken, but I don't know.

Representative BOGGS. Now, in these tests, was there any difficulty about firing this rifle three times within the space or period of time that has been given to the Commission--5 seconds, I think.

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, let me say this. I fired the rifle three times, in accordance with that system of timing it from the first shot with the chamber loaded until the last shot occurred--three times in 4.6 seconds, 4.8 seconds, 5.6 seconds, 5.8, 5.9, and another one a little over 6, or in that neighborhood. The tenth of a second variation could very easily be as a result of the timing procedure used. A reflex of just not stopping the stopwatch in a tenth of a second.

Representative BOGGS. You were firing at a simulated target?

Mr. FRAZIER. These targets previously introduced, or copies of the targets, are those which we actually fired.

Representative BOGGS. My questions are really a followup of the Chairman's question.

These practices--were you just practicing for time, or were you practicing under conditions similar to those existing in Dallas at the time of the assassination?

Mr. FRAZIER. The tests we ran were for the purposes of determining whether we could fire this gun accurately in a limited amount of time, and specifically to determine whether it could be fired accurately in 6 seconds.

Now, we assumed the 6 seconds empirically--that is, we had not been furnished with any particular time interval. Later we were furnished with a time interval of 5.5 seconds. However, I have no independent knowledge--had no independent knowledge of the time interval or the accuracy. But we merely fired it to demonstrate the results from rapidly firing the weapon, reloading the gun and so on, in a limited time.

Representative BOGGS. Were there other tests conducted to determine the accuracy of the weapon and so on?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir--only the rapid-fire accuracy tests were fired by the FBI.

Representative BOGGS. There is no reason to believe that this weapon is not accurate, is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that.

Representative BOGGS. That was the point I was trying to establish.

Mr. FRAZIER. This Exhibit 549 is a target fired, showing that the weapon will, even under rapid-fire conditions, group closely--that is, one shot with the next.

Representative BOGGS. How many shots in the weapon? Five?

Mr. McCLOY. The clip takes six itself. You can put a seventh in the chamber. It could hold seven, in other words. But the clip is only a six-shot clip.

Representative BOGGS. Was the weapon fully loaded at the time of the assassination?

Mr. McCLOY. I don't know how many shells--three shells were picked up.

Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, turning back to the scope, if the elevation crosshair was defective at the time of the assassination, in the same manner it is now, and no compensation was made for this defect, how would this have interacted with the amount of lead which needed to be given to the target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, may I say this first. I do not consider the crosshair as being defective, but only the adjusting mechanism does not have enough tolerance to bring the crosshair to the point of impact of the bullet. As to how that would affect the lead--the gun, when we first received it in the laboratory and fired these first targets, shot high and slightly to the right.

If you were shooting at a moving target from a high elevation, relatively high elevation, moving away from you, it would be necessary for you to shoot over that object in order for the bullet to strike your intended target, because the object during the flight of the bullet would move a certain distance.

The fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate for any lead which had to be taken. So that if you aimed with this weapon as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would be necessary to take no lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object. The scope would accomplish the lead for you.

I might also say that it also shot slightly to the right, which would tend to cause you to miss your target slightly to the right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, on that last question, did you attempt to center the windage crosshair, to sight-in the windage crosshair?

Mr. FRAZIER. We attempted to, and found that it was changing--the elevation was changing the windage. So we merely left the windage as it was.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you say conclusively that the windage crosshair could not be centered in, sighted-in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I would say that the windage could have been centered in the telescope to bring the windage to the aiming line.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that--and if that had been done, then you would not have this problem of dispersion to the right?

Mr. FRAZIER. That's true.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to----

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a moment. Do you have any opinion on whether or not the sight was deliberately set that way?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I do not. And I think I must say here that this mount was loose on the rifle when we received it. And apparently the scope had even been taken off of the rifle, in searching for fingerprints on the rifle. So that actually the way it was sighted-in when we got it does not necessarily mean it was sighted-in that way when it was abandoned.

Mr. EISENBERG. Carrying this question a little bit further on the deliberateness of the sighting-in, the problem with the elevation crosshair is built into the mounting of the scope, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The mount is not screwed to the rifle in such a fashion that it points the scope at the target closely enough to permit adjusting the crosshair to accurately sight-in the rifle.

Representative BOGGS. One other question, then.

It is possible, is it not, to so adjust the telescopic sight to compensate for that change in the target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. You can accomplish that merely by putting shims under the front of the scope and over the back of the scope to tip the scope in the mount itself, to bring it into alinement.

Representative BOGGS. So an accomplished person, accustomed to using that weapon, anticipating a shot of that type, might very well have made such an adjustment prior to using the rifle; isn't that so?

Mr. FRAZIER. If it were necessary; yes. There were no shims in the weapon, either under the mount, where it screws to the weapon, or in the two mounting rings, when we received it in the laboratory.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any shims with you, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. When we received the weapon yesterday, there were shims mounted in the rifle. The one under the front end of the mount is in this envelope.

Representative BOGGS. But they were not there when you received it originally?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. These were placed there by some other individual.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, these were placed by the ballistics laboratory of the Army, a representative of which will testify later.

Now, turning to another possible source of error in aim, Mr. Frazier, if a rifle such as Exhibit 139 is sighted-in with the use of a target at a given distance, and it is aimed at a target which is further away or closer than the target which was used for sighting-in purposes, will any error be introduced by reason of the fact that the target is further or closer away than the sighting-in target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it will, because the bullet in leaving the muzzle follows a curved path rather than a straight path, and in order to hit a specific target at a specific range, it is necessary for the bullet to travel up and drop down to the target, rather than have the bore pointed right at the target at the time of discharge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you calculate the amount of error which would be introduced by a specific projectile?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you made such calculations?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have taken calculations for similar weight and velocity bullets from ballistics tables, which bullets approximate the velocity of the 6.5 mm. bullet and the weight of that bullet as fired from 139.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are these results affected by the rifle which is employed, or do they depend upon the missile?

Mr. FRAZIER. They depend upon the weight and shape of the missile and the velocity, but not upon the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of these calculations?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; if you, for instance, take this rifle with a telescopic sight and sight it in for 300 feet--that is, the bullet will strike where you are looking when you are shooting at 300 feet--at 200 feet the bullet will be above the line of sight approximately one-quarter of an inch, and at 100 feet it will be approximately one-quarter of an inch below the line of sight. That is accomplished because the bullet is still coming up at 100 feet, it crosses the line of sight, and does not descend again to it until you come to the sighting-in distance of 300 feet.

If you sighted-in to strike at 450 feet, the bullet at 100 feet would be just at the line of sight--that is, on its way up would just cross the line of sight at about 100 feet. It would be one inch high at 200 feet, and approximately one and one-eighth inches high at 300 feet.

It would, of course, drop back down to the point of aim at 450 feet. If you sighted-in at 600 feet, then at 100 feet it would be approximately one-half inch high. At 200 feet it would be 2 inches high, and at 300 feet it would be approximately 3 inches high.

Representative BOGGS. Is this a stationary target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, this is shooting from a rest at a stationary target.

Representative BOGGS. This is just a normal----

Mr. FRAZIER. This is just the trajectory of the bullet.

Representative BOGGS. I understand.

Mr. FRAZIER. As calculated----

Mr. McCLOY. Putting it another way, what would be the drop of the bullet at a hundred yards if you aim point-blank straight at that target?

Mr. FRAZIER. Assuming no sighting or anything, the bullet would drop about 1.2 inches from the line of the bore at 100 yards.

Representative BOGGS. 1.2 inches?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. But now the telescopic sight at a hundred yards would correct that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Actually, you would sight so that the muzzle is tipped up slightly with reference to the sight.

Mr. EISENBERG. The error would be introduced if you shot at a target which is closer or further away than the sighting-in target; is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, that's right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you characterize these errors as material?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not--unless you began shooting at distances well beyond your sighting-in point--then the amount of variation increases very rapidly.

Mr. EISENBERG. What would be the usual minimum distance you use for sighting-in a weapon such as Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would vary from place to place depending upon shooting conditions, and I would say it would seldom be sighted-in for less than 150 or 200 yards.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that if the shots involved in the assassination were fired at 175 feet and 265 feet respectively, they would be shorter than the sighting-in distance and therefore not materially affected by the trajectory characteristics, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is correct, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, based upon the characteristics of Exhibit 139, and the ammunition it employs, and based upon your experience with the weapon, would you consider it to have been a good choice for the commission of a crime such as the assassination?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Any rifle, regardless of its caliber, would be a good choice if it would shoot accurately.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you find this shot accurately?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Would you consider the shots difficult shots--talking about the shots from the sixth-floor window to the head of the President and to Governor Connally?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I would not under the circumstances--a relatively slow-moving target, and very short distance, and a telescopic sight.

Representative BOGGS. You are not answering that as an expert.

Mr. FRAZIER. From my own experience in shooting over the years, when you shoot at 175 feet or 260 feet, which is less than a hundred yards, with a telescopic sight, you should not have any difficulty in hitting your target.

Representative BOGGS. Putting my question another way, you would not have to be an expert marksman to accomplish this objective?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say no, you certainly would not.

Representative BOGGS. And a man is a relatively large target, is he not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say you would have to be very familiar with the weapon to fire it rapidly, and do this--hit this target at those ranges. But the marksmanship is accomplished by the telescopic sight. I mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the target and that is all that is necessary.

Mr. EISENBERG. How does the recoil of this weapon compare with the recoil of the average military rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Considerably less. The recoil is nominal with this weapon, because it has a very low velocity and pressure, and just an average-size bullet weight.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship?

Mr. FRAZIER. Under rapid-fire conditions, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would that make it a better choice than a more powerfully recoiling weapon for the type of crime which was committed?

Mr. FRAZIER. For shooting rapidly, this would be a much better choice, because the recoil does not throw the muzzle nearly so far off the target, it does not jar the shooter nearly so much, as a higher-powered rifle, such as a .30/06 or a .270 Winchester, or a German 8 mm. Mauser, for instance, or one of the other military-type weapons available.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is the killing power of the bullets essentially similar to the killing power at these ranges--the killing power of the rifles you have named?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. How much difference is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. The higher velocity bullets of approximately the same weight would have more killing power. This has a low velocity, but has very adequate killing power with reference to humans, because it is a military--it is an established military weapon.

Representative BOGGS. This is a military weapon, is it not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That is designed to kill a human being.

Representative BOGGS. Exactly.

Mr. EISENBERG. Unless there are further questions on the weapon, I am going to move into the area of the identification of the cartridge cases and the bullets.

Mr. McCLOY. I may say I have to leave at twelve o'clock for a twelve-fifteen appointment. I will be back this afternoon.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, returning to the cartridge cases which were marked earlier into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544, and 545, and which, as I stated earlier for the record, had been found next to the window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, can you tell us when you received those cartridge cases?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I received the first of the exhibits, 543 and 544, on November 23, 1963. They were delivered to me by Special Agent Vincent Drain of the Dallas FBI Office.

And the other one I received on November 27, 1963, which was delivered by Special Agents Vincent Drain and Warren De Brueys of the Dallas Office.

Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving these cartridge cases, did you clean them up or in any way prepare them for examination?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. The bases were cleaned of a paint which was placed on them by the manufacturer. In spots this red lacquer on the base of the case was overlapping the head of the case where some of the microscopic marks were located, and some of that color was taken off.

Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that lacquer put on the cartridge cases?

Mr. FRAZIER. It seals the primer area against moisture.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were there any other changes made in the preparation of the cartridge cases?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined the cartridge cases previously. Are they in the same condition now that they were when you received them in the laboratory except for the cleaning of the lacquer?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. EISENBERG. After receiving the cartridge cases, did you examine them to determine whether they had been fired in Commission Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. When did you make the examinations?

Mr. FRAZIER. On the dates I mentioned, that is, November 23, 1963, and November 27, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what were your conclusions, Mr. Frazier?

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