Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (03 of 26): Hearings Vol. III (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Mrs. PAINE. I want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of Secret Service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if I had ever seen a particular note which they had. And I have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker and if you want I will make it clear all I know in relation to that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I recall that incident and I wish you would, please.

Mrs. PAINE. And then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the Commission, but if it is a deposition I can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which----

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the Commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who Ruth Paine is and if I may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the Commission record, please?

Mrs. PAINE. All right. I might say that I think it is important and relevant here because if I had not been separated from my husband I would have not as I think I have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house.

Really, I might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. What was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view?

Mrs. PAINE. In my view, of course, yes. He expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. We never quarreled. We never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except I want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion.

And in the spring of 1962 I felt that something more definite should be done, and asked Michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and I said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when I returned from summer vacation that year.

Mr. JENNER. That was 1962?

Mrs. PAINE. 1962, yes. I would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership.

My mother recently said to me that "If you would just look only at what Michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. It is just what he says", and I concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is he gracious and kind and attentive to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Has he always been?

Mrs. PAINE. Insufficiently attentive, I would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any financial differences of opinion?

Mrs. PAINE. We have not.

Mr. JENNER. He even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arguments about matters of that nature?

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband has returned to your home?

Mrs. PAINE. He is living there now.

Mr. JENNER. How long has that been?

Mrs. PAINE. He has been staying there since the night of November 22. He didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say this is a reconciliation?

Mrs. PAINE. I can't say that.

Mr. JENNER. You cannot.

Do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours?

Mrs. PAINE. Not unless you have questions. I think it is an accurate statement of the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the Commission.

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are there any others?

Mrs. PAINE. I can think of nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the Commission consistent with statements you have given to the FBI, to Secret Service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone?

Mrs. PAINE. The statements I have given here are fully consistent with anything I have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement.

Mr. JENNER. And you have testified to matters and things before the Commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to FBI agents, to Secret Service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you and I had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the Commission. And also I think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the Commission room and we spent several hours talking?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact, we left around 12:30, a quarter of one in the morning, did we not?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is right, we did.

Mr. JENNER. Now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the Commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no; I don't think so, not in any way.

Mr. JENNER. Not in any way. Do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this Commission, that I influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect?

Mrs. PAINE. No. Clearly I felt no influence from you.

Mr. JENNER. All of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part.

Mrs. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and Representative Ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. He regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and Mrs. Paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and I may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the Commission, of you, Mr. Chairman, I would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of Mrs. Paine before the Commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning I will cover additional matters by way of deposition.

Senator COOPER. As I understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to----

Mr. JENNER. I can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the Russian language.

More formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. Also her general background which I have already mentioned. Some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that Mrs. Paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself.

Mrs. PAINE. One of which we took care of already.

Mr. JENNER. One of which we took care of. We will cover those and I was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of Lee Harvey Oswald's personality and habits and actions.

I am going to ask here about Mrs. Shirley Martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Shirley Martin, and then inquire, I may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between Marina and Mrs. Paine on various possible subjects, and I can see from my list we have covered many of them already.

Senator COOPER. Let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the Commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the Commission to testify.

Mrs. PAINE. I would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to this, Mr. Chairman, as I think already appears of record, I will come to Mrs. Paine's home in Irving, Tex., sometime on Monday or Monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on Tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and I also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions?

Mr. JENNER. That is all. Thank you, sir.

Senator COOPER. All right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the Chairman of the Commission.

(Translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of Mrs. Paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.)

Tuesday, March 24, 1964

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN, BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS, HAROLD NORMAN, JAMES JARMAN, JR., AND ROY SANSOM TRULY

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. Brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, I will read a little statement to you.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly.

These witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. They will be asked to provide the Commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Belin will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Howard Leslie Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. BRENNAN. 6814 Woodward, Dallas 27.

Mr. BELIN. And how old a man are you?

Mr. BRENNAN. 45.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BRENNAN. Two children. One grandson.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Steamfitter.

Mr. BELIN. And for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Wallace and Beard.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a construction company?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And let me ask you this: How long have you been a steamfitter?

Mr. BRENNAN. Since 1943, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job?

Mr. BRENNAN. I go from job to job.

Mr. BELIN. Is that at your direction or at the direction of any union?

Mr. BRENNAN. Local 100 in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, say around noon or so?

Mr. BRENNAN. I left a position behind the Book Store, which is a leased part of Katy Yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the Republic Bank Building. At 12 o'clock I went to the cafeteria on the corner of Main and Record. I believe that is it.

Mr. BELIN. That would be at Main and Record Streets in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you have your lunch there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then after lunch, where did you go?

Mr. BRENNAN. I finished lunch and I glanced at a clock--I don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was 12:18. So I thought I still had a few minutes, that I might see the parade and the President.

I walked to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. What route did you take to get to Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I went west on Main.

Mr. BELIN. You went west on Main from Record Street to----

Mr. BRENNAN. Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston

Mr. BRENNAN. And on the east side of Houston, I walked to Elm.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Crossed the street to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there?

Mr. BRENNAN. A possibility I would say more or less 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BRENNAN. I stayed around a couple of minutes. There was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of 20 yards east--south of this corner. And they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and I believe an ambulance picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge.

Mr. BELIN. You jumped up on the retaining wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 477.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 477 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please tell the Commission what this is?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Book Store at the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. By the Book Store, you mean the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know what----

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the retainer wall which I perched on.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This is the retaining wall on which you perched. I believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in Dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were November 22; we took that picture on this past Friday.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Which would be the 20th of March. Is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I hand you now what the reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 478.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 478 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. You remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository when that picture was taken on the 20th of March?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera is pointed in what direction?

Mr. BRENNAN. South.

Representative FORD. Are those the positions where you were sitting on November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. At about 12----

Mr. BRENNAN. From about 12:22 or 12:24 until the time of the assassination.

Representative FORD. In both pictures, that is a true----

Mr. BRENNAN. True location.

Representative FORD. True location of where you were sitting November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, I am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 479.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 479 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. And I will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. This negative appears to be a picture of the Presidential motorcade on the afternoon of November 22d. I ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am sitting at the same position as I was in the picture taken Friday, with the exception, I believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and Friday my hand, I believe, was resting on my leg.

Mr. BELIN. Well, your legs in this picture, Exhibit 479, I notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. What were you wearing on November 22d? What clothes were you wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the Texas Book Store on the east side of the Texas Book Store, and also the Texas Book Store Building windows. I observed quite a few people in different windows. In particular, I saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say the window on the sixth floor. What building are you referring to there?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to ask you to circle on Exhibit 477 the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I am confused here, the way this shows. But I believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. I am confused whether this is the same window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because some windows are open below it?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. The way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a marking pencil. Will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man.

All right.

And do you want to put a letter "A", if you would, by that.

All right, now you have marked on Commission Exhibit 477 a circle with the letter "A" to show the window that you saw a man in, I believe you said, at least two times come back and forth.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not on that floor.

There was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that I noticed.

There were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. In particular, I only remember two that I identified.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some Negro people on the fifth floor. Could you do that with this marking pencil on Exhibit 477, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. The two that I identified, I believe, was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You want to put a "B" on that one?

Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.

Mr. BELIN. This man you saw previous? Which man are you talking about now?

Mr. BRENNAN. The man in the sixth story window.

Mr. BELIN. Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

And, at the same moment, I was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the Houston side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you. What kind of a gun did you see in that window?

Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw--standing or sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see--at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?

Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.

Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except----

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot----

Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.

Mr. BELIN. About what weight?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. BELIN. A white man?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?

Mr. BRENNAN. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "they", who do you mean?

Mr. BRENNAN. Law-enforcement officers.

Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do?

Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.

And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.

I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.

I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was.

Representative FORD. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. He----

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened, sir?

Mr. BRENNAN. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?

Mr. BRENNAN. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutes ago----

Mr. BELIN. Go right ahead, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the two----

Mr. BRENNAN. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And I immediately identified these two boys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; that concludes that.

Mr. McCLOY. They were running out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side.

Mr. McCLOY. Did they then disappear in the crowd?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them.

Representative FORD. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them.

I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them.

Representative FORD. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom?

Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer.

Representative FORD. And these two Negroes came out of the front door?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And you did what then?

Mr. BRENNAN. I----

Representative FORD. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. BRENNAN. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun.

Representative FORD. You positively identified them?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did, at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys.

Representative FORD. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. On Friday evening, you are speaking of?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor.

(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. BRENNAN. I later was introduced to several men--Captain Fritz in Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their names.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his name.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels.

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know the other man's name.

Mr. BELIN. You believe one of them was Sorrels?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe one of them was Sorrels.

Mr. BELIN. I think for the record----

Mr. BRENNAN. That is at the building.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and 479.

Mr. DULLES. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning.

They shall be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with you here today.

Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the Bible and blueprint.

Mr. BELIN. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 years?

Mr. BRENNAN. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident.

Mr. DULLES. Does that mean you are farsighted?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What has happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.

Mr. BELIN. This is January of 1964?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours.

Mr. BELIN. How is your eyesight today?

Mr. BRENNAN. He says it is not good.

Mr. BELIN. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say?

Mr. BRENNAN. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald--or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not remember.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, on television.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that, do you believe?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television before I went down to the police station for the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I told them I could not make a positive identification.

Mr. BELIN. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When did that happen?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe some days later--I don't recall exactly--and I believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that--whether his name was Williams or not.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it could have been FBI instead of Secret Service.

But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston.

And I----

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, he asked me--he said, "You said you couldn't make a positive identification."

He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?"

And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for security reasons--my family and myself.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police?

Mr. BRENNAN. Beg pardon?

Mr. BELIN. If you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. That had a great contributing factor--greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released.

Mr. BELIN. The murder of whom?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of Officer Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him?

Mr. BRENNAN. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is something I do not know.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. I could at that time--I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and it ran about----

Mr. BRENNAN. 93-foot.

Representative FORD. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south.

Representative FORD. But he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Yes; that he can do.

Representative FORD. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time.

Mr. BELIN. I think he might do that right now.

Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black.

Do you see that?

Mr. BRENNAN. It should be here.

Mr. BELIN. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment.

This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south.

I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch.

Mr. BRENNAN. This is Main here.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be running there, yes.

If you would, put a "D" at that point.

Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day.

All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I didn't go to the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner?

Mr. BRENNAN. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. BRENNAN. "E"?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building.

Representative FORD. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers?

Mr. BRENNAN. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here.

Mr. BELIN. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?

Mr. BRENNAN. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You contacted the officer at "F".

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went over to a car.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.

Mr. BELIN. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer.

Mr. BELIN. You went to the north on Houston?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. And then back to----

Mr. BELIN. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know exactly however.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home--my wife saw it.

Mr. BELIN. On television?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them.

Do you remember what station they were on television?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.

Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with?

Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

We thank you very much for that information.

Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?

Mr. BRENNAN. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Of what building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office.

Mr. DULLES. You did not go inside the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember.

Representative FORD. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes?

Mr. BRENNAN. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps.

Mr. BELIN. Was that at point "G"?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you start there and kind of trace--well, I don't know if you can see all of it.

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do the best you can, you can trace along here.

Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston.

Mr. BRENNAN. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time.

Mr. BELIN. By this street you mean Houston Street?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on.

All right. Now, at that first point, this would be----

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?

Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?

Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go from there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please.

Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to another side of the wall.

Would it be to the east or to the west there?

Mr. BRENNAN. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.

Mr. BELIN. Is this where you went?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting?

All right.

Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was.

It looks like there is a car there now.

So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car.

Mr. BRENNAN. This car here--letter what?

Mr. BELIN. "L".

Mr. BRENNAN. That is this car here, sitting approximately where----

Mr. BELIN. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not actually on the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, is that right?

Yes; you are correct there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right next to the curb in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be behind--you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits.

Mr. DULLES. They shall be admitted as remarked.

(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.

Mr. DULLES. What is 361?

Mr. BELIN. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted again, remarked.

(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.

I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481.

First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I do not recognize them.

As positive identification I cannot recognize them.

Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I am going to hand you now----

Mr. BRENNAN. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?

Mr. BRENNAN. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. These do.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?

Mr. BRENNAN. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"--if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.

Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.

Mr. BELIN. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could see more boxes.

Mr. BELIN. In the window or behind the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Behind the window.

Mr. BELIN. I am talking in the window itself.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, no. That is--I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you don't remember----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right?

Mr. BELIN. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Here they are here. Those boxes there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, here is Exhibit 482.

First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I don't recall that box.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there.

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. You cannot say whether it was or was not?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.

All right.

Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or--just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April.

And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.

I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.

Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what?

Mr. BRENNAN. Backfire of a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And then you later said something about a firecracker.

Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last?

Mr. BRENNAN. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.

Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at?

Mr. BRENNAN. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time.

And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards.

At that time did you make that statement to the FBI--and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?

Mr. BRENNAN. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards.

Now, I----

Mr. BELIN. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?

Mr. BRENNAN. From Kennedy's position.

Mr. BELIN. But could you see Kennedy's position?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.

Mr. BELIN. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle.

Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 22?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe----

Mr. BELIN. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Why did I----

Mr. BELIN. No.

What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department.

Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it does.

Mr. BELIN. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.

Now, is that what you told the man on January 7--that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guy that----

Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window.

Is that what you told them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

You mean told this man?

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again.

Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words.

When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year.

Mr. BRENNAN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not what you told him, but what was the fact?

Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.

Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could not identify----

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.

Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.

Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it.

Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?

Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.

But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.

Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482.

Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir.

Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation.

But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.

Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir.

When did you first see Exhibit 479?

Mr. BRENNAN. This morning.

Mr. BELIN. This morning here.

And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did.

I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas--that would be on March 20th.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened.

Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up.

Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined?

Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

How did you find that out?

Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.

Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only.

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year.

Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions.

You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots.

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.

Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?

Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.

Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.

Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.

I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.

Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store--I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have--the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. That was my thoughts.

Mr. McCLOY. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not according to my calculations.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record--I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background--I think it would be helpful for the record.

Mr. DULLES. We have certain information.

Mr. BELIN. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.

Representative FORD. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information.

Mr. BELIN. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record?

Representative FORD. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Prior to his testimony?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Because you have gone from one job to another?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think we need all that detail.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have been a steamfitter.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you a member of a church?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. What church are you a member of?

Mr. BRENNAN. Baptist.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified you were a Bible reader.

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.

Mr. McCLOY. When you do, you have to wear glasses?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions?

Mr. BELIN. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir.

One question--when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?

Mr. BRENNAN. I told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. I told you in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened.

Representative FORD. And here today you have testified freely on your own?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right, I have.

Mr. DULLES. Anything you would like to add?

Mr. BELIN. One other question, sir.

For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much younger, but a few years younger--say 5 years younger.

And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose.

Representative FORD. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22d, that is when you did get home----

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was your wife there?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; we discussed it. We talked--I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.

Representative FORD. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?

Mr. BRENNAN. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.

So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.

She seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go.

Representative FORD. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day?

Mr. BRENNAN. Not to tell--not to give any information out.

My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me.

And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.

Representative FORD. 6 p.m., November 22d.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her.

Mr. BELIN. That you would not, or that you could not?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I told her I would not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?

Mr. BRENNAN. No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.

Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?

Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter.

Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see the man's trousers at all?

Do you remember any color?

Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much for coming here.

TESTIMONY OF BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS

Mr. BELIN. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here.

You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you rise, sir?

Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Williams, how old are you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am 20 years old.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I live in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I am.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was born in Carthage, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All the way.

Mr. BALL. Graduated from high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course in Dallas, Texas, Madison High.

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work after that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I worked there about a year.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was a mail separator.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When did you get that job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Around about September 8th.

Mr. BALL. What year?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go there to get the job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day job--I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and I happened to come down that way.

Mr. DULLES. Were you going to school in the daytime?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

Mr. DULLES. This is after you finished school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. All this took place after I finished school.

Mr. BALL. You finished school when?

Mr. WILLIAMS. 1962.

Mr. BALL. And you had these three----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a week.

Mr. BALL. When you were going to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's Motel.

Mr. BALL. Did you work while you went to school?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and little odd jobs.

Mr. BALL. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas School Book Depository before you went down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were just looking for a job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I just put in applications everywhere.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think the first day I started work there they started me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.

Mr. BALL. What are you doing now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the present time I do anything--check, pack, fill orders, anything.

Mr. BALL. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of a warehouse?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a half north?

Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half.

Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.

So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.

Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.

Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days.

Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there was a vacancy in there.

Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side--were there cartons on the floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.

Then we had to move the cartons.

As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.

Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Were you late or on time that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there a little before eight.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone.

He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have lunch with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No.

The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.

Mr. DULLES. But he would never say good morning or good evening?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.

Representative FORD. Where did this go on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read the sports.

Mr. BALL. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room?

Mr. DULLES. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then everybody could see.

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the front entrance--I could explain the way I know the best.

As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, this would be--the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this vicinity here.

Mr. BALL. That is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side.

Mr. BALL. That is on Exhibit 362.

Mr. DULLES. What floor is this we are looking at now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the first floor.

Representative FORD. And it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what he was reading.

Mr. BALL. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This morning of November 22d?

Mr. BALL. 22d.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had started working. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, I believe he was.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you saw him that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00.

Mr. BALL. We will come to that in a moment.

Where did you work that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went directly up to the sixth floor and I got there.

Mr. BALL. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe there were five.

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a fellow by the name of Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. He is a Mexican boy?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down.

Mr. DULLES. Was he in the employ of the company?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, I think.

Mr. DULLES. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor that you are speaking of?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us move stock around.

I think that was him.

Mr. BALL. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On the west side.

Mr. BALL. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were doing both.

Mr. BALL. You were doing both?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.

Mr. BALL. What was his job?

Mr. WILLIAMS. His job was an order filler.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and fill the orders.

If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out.

Mr. BALL. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to all the floors, all seven floors.

Mr. BALL. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, they were.

Mr. BALL. Would a checker--would an order filler go to the different floors and take books out of cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take the books that he needs.

Mr. BALL. Then where would he take the books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was on the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap the books.

Mr. BALL. And were there certain men down there wrapping books?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the particular books that were wanted?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the building.

Mr. DULLES. You were not in the order filling business?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; not in that department.

At the other building. I was just transferred to that building.

I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book, they would tell you where to find it.

Mr. BALL. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have marked as Exhibit 483.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is north--east and west. Here is Elm Street.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This would be the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway.

Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working laying floor on that sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say----

Mr. BALL. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and then we will make the markings afterwards.

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits of the area.

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working in this area down there like that.

Mr. BALL. In other words, from there to the west, or where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to the east. And we had got about just so much.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area that you saw?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark line?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw Oswald that morning.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over there. I am not really sure.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area where you say you saw Oswald, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the floor near the east elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that "O".

Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W-1 and W-1.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just moved them out and right back in, as I remember.

But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books--I would say this would be the window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.

Mr. DULLES. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. The window was here?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Any other questions on this?

Mr. BALL. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I cannot remember.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, approximately--between 11:30 to 12, around in there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time.

During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.

Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, we took two down.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you took two down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We always had a little kids game we played racing down with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the west elevator. And we was racing down.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the west side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly who was.

Mr. BALL. You were not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't think I was. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Who was driving the east side elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think that was Charles Givens.

Mr. BALL. Now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator.

And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that.

And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up."

I don't know what happened after that.

Representative FORD. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth.

The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving.

Representative FORD. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think he asked Charles Givens--I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up."

I think that is what he said.

Mr. McCLOY. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you saw Lee on the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't sure about it.

Mr. BALL. And were you sure at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About which floor it was?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure today?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am not sure today.

Mr. BALL. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard him.

Mr. BALL. You went down to the first floor.

What did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually carry your lunch to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8--paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Small bag?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Like you get in the grocery store?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you have in your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.

Mr. BALL. Chicken on the bone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The chicken was not boned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.

Mr. BALL. Did it have bread around it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, it did.

Mr. BALL. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. BALL. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.

Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.

Mr. McCLOY. What floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.

Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler.

By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.

But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Representative FORD. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Representative FORD. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

Mr. BALL. I have an exhibit here marked 484.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recognize that.

Mr. BALL. What do you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes in the windows.

Mr. BALL. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting.

Mr. BALL. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up.

Mr. BALL. The boxes were stacked up high?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you another picture here.

Mr. DULLES. You are not introducing that at this time?

Mr. BALL. I will. I am going to introduce them all.

Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484--that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around in this.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are marking here something between--some area between the third and the fourth window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell exactly?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I am not.

Mr. BALL. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.

Mr. BALL. Third or fourth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and "W-4" the end of the lines.

Mr. McCLOY. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About 12.

Mr. McCLOY. Just 12?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.

Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484--does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure. But it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on 484?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember--I am not sure about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.

Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.

Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.

Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?

Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.

Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.

Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman--as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here.

On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.

Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.

Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were both elevators on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Both west and east?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able--did you remember which elevator it was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?

Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.

Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.

Mr. BALL. Did you, later?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the Elm Street side.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and----

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?

Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in.

Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time.

Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You had known them before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time.

Mr. BALL. It was----

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building.

Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade.

Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential parade came by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?

Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and Jarman.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.

Mr. BALL. You were at what window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window, and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three windows over.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see yourself in that picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you, Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here or not. But I was in the window, that window.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as we look at the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend Jarman was sitting, or watching?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here.

Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to the window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480.

Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture?

Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.

Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade, I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.

Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will mark this as 485.

(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486.

(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the parade?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in the window next to him.

Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's parade went by?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember. I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat. I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the street--I believe----

Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had passed your window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.

Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.

Mr. BALL. Tell us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.

Mr. BALL. Norman said what?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention.

Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from.

Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us. He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still on the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared, running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was running, and we was looking out the window.

Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.

Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.

Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it.

Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor.

Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it.

Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there.

Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.

Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall?

Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From where you were?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. First of all----

Mr. BALL. I will take this same diagram----

Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up.

Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.

We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left like this. Harold was coming from here.

Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here is the next window, and here is the next window.

Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.

Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure, but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window.

Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you three men?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time.

Mr. BALL. Was it opened then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window.

Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Here is 488.

(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing.

Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.

Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way.

Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot at.

Mr. DULLES. One of the other two?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was.

Mr. DULLES. Said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew he had been shot at.

Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you show me where that window was.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is 489.

(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that about it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks.

Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.

Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.

Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade would come by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.

Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until Friday morning?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming, because I hadn't been reading the papers.

Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before?

Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the mornings before I leave home would be the sports.

Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way.

Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here.

When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.

Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.

Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise.

Mr. BALL. You really ran?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether everybody can see it or not----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question?

Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends----

Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows.

Now, you are oriented there, are you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point.

Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil.

Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that.

Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high.

Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think.

Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw----

Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.

Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it----

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.

Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.

Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some pictures.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you 490.

(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the bookshelves I was speaking of.

Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the camera?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was standing looking out this window.

Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.

Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.

Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.

Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what location?

Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.

Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.

We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time.

Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do you not?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, as where?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here.

Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture?

Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, 492?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long while? Or was it put there recently?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I can remember.

Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.

Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did you say that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that.

Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do?

Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.

Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.

Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?

Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner.

Did you run down stairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?

Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.

Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.

Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the Police Department?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.

Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.

Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.

Mr. BALL. Were your two friends with you, Jarman and----

Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.

Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they brought them right behind us.

Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.

Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers?

Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.

Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced?

Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492 we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.

Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including 492 will be admitted.

(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492, inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions.

When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan, and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that.

Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have seen on the fifth floor window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him. "Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown somewhere.

Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the shooting--Givens?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.

Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that, you know.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting.

Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that.

Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army.

Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.

Mr. DULLES. I have one question.

You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions?

Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound.

Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping.

Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions?

Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.

Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.

You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.

Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?

The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean----

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.

Mr. BALL. Let's identify.

Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.

Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?

Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.

Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.

Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?

Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?

Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.

Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. BALL. I don't know.

Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. I understand.

Any questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.

Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you----

Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I----

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the----

Mr. BRENNAN. Left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?

Mr. BRENNAN. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?

Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.

Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you----

Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.

Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?

Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.

Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window.

Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this.

Mr. BALL. No questions.

You may be excused, Mr. Brennan.

You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, Mr. Jarman.

Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all.

Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all.

Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back.

Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD NORMAN

I will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NORMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Norman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. NORMAN. 4858 Beulah Place, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. NORMAN. 26. I will be.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. NORMAN. Clarksville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Were you raised in Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Go to school there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go to school?

Mr. NORMAN. I graduated there.

Mr. BALL. From high school?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In Clarksville?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I remember working in Salina. I did a car washing job at the McElroy Chevrolet Co., and after I left there I came to Dallas and I started working at the depository, the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. That was about what year did you start working there?

Mr. NORMAN. In 1961, I believe.

Mr. BALL. 1961?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I think this coming October would have made 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And you work there now?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work now?

Mr. NORMAN. The Foxboro Co.

Mr. BALL. What kind of business is that?

Mr. NORMAN. Engineer instrumentation.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Porter.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the Texas School Book Depository for this new job?

Mr. NORMAN. I left during the Christmas holidays and the New Year's leave after we got off for New Year's.

Mr. BALL. In November 1963, this is this last fall, what kind of work were you doing at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. I was employed as an order filler.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same kind of a job that Lee Oswald had?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him?

Mr. NORMAN. No; just as an employee, that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know him before he came to work there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you get acquainted with him after he was there?

Mr. NORMAN. No. Just knew his name. I mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so I didn't----

Mr. BALL. He didn't talk to anybody?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir. I just, you know, speak to him, that is all. I wouldn't engage in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Are you the boys that use clipboards?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The order fillers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Somebody gives you orders by way of papers?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do you do after you get an order on a paper?

Mr. NORMAN. We had a different publisher in the building, and each individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe I would take to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped out.

Mr. BALL. You have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. If we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you fill some of your orders from the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many floors did you go to that morning yourself, November 22? Can you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I went as far as the fifth floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. That is as far----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't--yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you help them?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I was just up there shooting the breeze.

Mr. BALL. Now what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he filled orders for?

Mr. NORMAN. I knew Scott-Foresman.

Mr. BALL. Scott-Foresman.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was the publisher assigned to him?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. Well, I don't know if he was assigned to him but he filled, you know.

Mr. BALL. He filled those orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You say then he filled Scott-Foresman book orders?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where those books were kept?

Mr. NORMAN. The majority of them were on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to work on the morning of November the 22d?

Mr. NORMAN. I got there I would say about 5 minutes of 8 o'clock, 5 minutes until 8 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. You weren't late?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald when you got to work?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing him when I got to work.

Mr. BALL. Did you remember seeing him at any time that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mr. NORMAN. Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. NORMAN. The first.

Mr. BALL. Looking out on Elm through windows, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir. I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?

Mr. NORMAN. No; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at any time after that?

Mr. NORMAN. No; no more. I don't recall seeing him any more that day.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I quit around 11:45, I think.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you quit?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I went in, washed up and I----

Mr. BALL. When you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up?

Mr. NORMAN. In the men's bathroom.

Mr. BALL. Is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; that is the one off the domino room.

Mr. BALL. It is the one near the domino room?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; one near the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Right next to it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After you washed up, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch from home that day?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. And in what kind of a package did you bring it?

Mr. NORMAN. A brown paper sack, paper bag.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from 8 in the morning until you got it at noon?

Mr. NORMAN. I left it in the window of the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any other packages in that window that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say that I noticed any that morning but I know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You got your lunch and did you eat your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you ate your lunch?

Mr. NORMAN. In the domino room, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, I mean the domino room, with me.

Mr. BALL. Did some other employees eat there?

Mr. NORMAN. I think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't you play that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play.

Mr. BALL. You usually play dominoes during the noon hour?

Mr. NORMAN. Noon hour and the break period.

Mr. BALL. After you ate your lunch, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. I got with James Jarman, he and I got together on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Where was James Jarman when you got together with him?

Mr. NORMAN. He was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, I believe. I am not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Out near the bins?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you call James Jarman?

Mr. NORMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. And you and Junior did what?

Mr. NORMAN. We went outside.

Mr. BALL. You went out the front door, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is the Elm Street?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. NORMAN. We stood on the Elm Street sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. On the sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. We didn't go any further than that point.

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you went out there?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say, I don't know exactly, around 12 or 12:10, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the Elm Street sidewalk?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember it was Danny Arce.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce--we went back in the building, James Jarman and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?

Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.

Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?

Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?

Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.

Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

Mr. BALL. Did you move around any from one window to another before the motorcade?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, if I did I didn't move no further than those three windows that were open in the front there. I didn't move any further than that.

Mr. BALL. I show you some pictures here. This is Commission Exhibit No. 482. Do you recognize anybody in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself and that is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. "Myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Bonnie Ray is in the window next to you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I show you 480. Do you see the window in which you were looking?

Mr. NORMAN. That window is where I was looking.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast corner?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which you were looking.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Here is 482. Do you see your picture in that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Point out your picture on 482.

Mr. NORMAN. That is myself.

Mr. BALL. I will point that out with a red arrow on 482. Now were you standing up or sitting down?

Mr. NORMAN. I was sitting. I wasn't at all standing up.

Mr. BALL. At the time the President's motorcade went by, how were you sitting?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe I wasn't on my knees I don't think, but I was in a hunched over position somewhat like this.

Mr. BALL. Last Friday afternoon, that is March 20, you and Junior Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams went up on the fifth floor with me, didn't you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a photographer?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you took a position; did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What position did you take at the window? First of all, what did I ask you to do? What position did I ask you to take?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe you told us to take the position that we thought we were in during the time of the motorcade.

Mr. BALL. And do you recognize this picture, 486? Do you show in the picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is myself there.

Mr. BALL. You are sitting there looking out a window. How does that picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't think--I think I was facing the window more straight during that time, I mean the motorcade, that I am in this position here.

Mr. BALL. That picture shows you looking out the window down the street, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And this is a picture of Bonnie Ray also, isn't it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now you saw the President go by, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. NORMAN. About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking to the public.

Mr. McCLOY. Saluting?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With which arm?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?

Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.

Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Falling?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from.

Mr. BALL. But you did?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where?

Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling?

Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams' hair.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about it?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.

Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram of this fifth floor.

Mr. McCLOY. May I interrupt there.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. You spoke about seeing the President sort of slump over after the first shot?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I believe the first.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President hit on any subsequent shots?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall seeing that.

Mr. BALL. Here is a diagram of the sixth floor.

Mr. NORMAN. The sixth floor?

Mr. BALL. Of the fifth floor rather, which is Commission's 487, and this is the southeast corner window. To what window did you and your two friends run?

Mr. NORMAN. This is the south. This is the window we were in. We came to this last, I believe it is the next to the last or the last window on this end here, right here.

Mr. BALL. And the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a photographer, you ran to that window, did you?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we ran to.

Mr. BALL. And you opened that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And had your picture taken?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Here is 485. Is that the window as you remembered it that you ran to?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't say it was that particular window that day but it was between these two windows here.

Mr. BALL. One of the two windows?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. This is marked Y here on 487, is that correct?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe----

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then did you leave that window that you have marked Y on 487?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you went to what window?

Mr. NORMAN. To the west window.

Mr. BALL. Look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as you remember it?

Mr. NORMAN. It was between this point here, these two right here.

Mr. BALL. That is marked Z?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that correct?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you went to that window?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember if we raised the window or not but I remember looking out the window that day.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture 489 taken last Friday when you were with me on that floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you show in the picture?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the window you looked out of?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I believe that is the one.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at when you looked out that window?

Mr. NORMAN. We saw the policeman, and I guess they were detectives, they were searching the empty cars over there. I remember seeing some guy on top of them.

Mr. BALL. On top of the cars?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. They were going through there.

Mr. BALL. You saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad tracks?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you stay at that window?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember, but it wasn't very long.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. NORMAN. We ran down to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. As you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in Exhibit No. 489, were you able to see the stairwell?

Mr. NORMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. NORMAN. Because there is a row of bins there that prevents you standing in a position that I was in to keep you from seeing it.

Mr. BALL. There is 492. Does that show the row of bins?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the row of bins.

Mr. BALL. They block off the stairwell.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see if we could see any one of you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is a picture 491. That is your picture, isn't it?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where are you?

Mr. NORMAN. In the middle.

Mr. BALL. And who is that on the end?

Mr. NORMAN. Which end? Oh, this is Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Who is this one?

Mr. NORMAN. James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. And then a picture, do you remember another picture was taken, 492?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember that picture.

Mr. BALL. Can you see anyone in that picture?

Mr. NORMAN. I see one person.

Mr. BALL. Can you make him out?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes. I recognize him as James Jarman.

Mr. BALL. Jarman, the one on the end?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now did you see any police officer come up on that floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't.

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you see Mr. Truly come up?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any elevator operator?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Going up or down?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't recall anyone.

Mr. BALL. When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?

Mr. NORMAN. We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone talk to you later?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. NORMAN. I guess they were Secret Service men. But I know they talked to us.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you over to the police station later?

Mr. NORMAN. No; they didn't carry me to the police station.

Mr. BALL. When did you leave the place?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere around 2 o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that.

Mr. BALL. Who did you leave with?

Mr. NORMAN. Mr. James Jarman. I can't remember who.

Mr. BALL. From the time that you went down on the first door until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all?

Mr. NORMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stay?

Mr. NORMAN. They kept us on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?

Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.

Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me."

Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was.

Mr. BALL. I see. Did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I heard them making a sound.

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer this into evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit No. 493 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. You used the expression you heard the ejection. This refers to the bolt action?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Those are the same things?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is what I mean.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what you meant by that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What language did you use when you talked to the Secret Service man, do you know? Did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? Which did you use?

Mr. NORMAN. I probably said the ejection.

Mr. BALL. That is what you think you said?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The same thing you said here?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember Friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment?

Mr. NORMAN. In the same window. I may not have been in the same position but I was in the same window.

Mr. BALL. The same window?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window was open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; they told me it was open. I didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. And a Secret Service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there.

Mr. BALL. You could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. You could hear it clearly, could you?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The day that you were there on November 22, what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. I would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so I would say you could see a little daylight during that time.

Mr. BALL. When you were there Friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What could you see on the ceiling?

Mr. NORMAN. There was one place I could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, I mean peering through the crack.

Mr. BALL. What about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. Could you see daylight through there?

Mr. NORMAN. Against the wall?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight.

Mr. BALL. Now the day of the experiment last Friday when you heard the cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting----

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there any noise outside?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. What was it?

Mr. NORMAN. There was a train and there were trucks and cars.

Mr. BALL. Was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted the experiment last Friday, March 20, than on November 22, at 12:30?

Mr. NORMAN. It was more noise last Friday than it was November 22.

Mr. BALL. Was there any train going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any trucks going by on November 22?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. How did you get your job at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. NORMAN. Well, as I remember the time that I told you before I used to live in Salina and washing cars at the Chevrolet company I had a friend that lived in Dallas and he was working down there, and he told me that he thought that I could get a job down there, and that is how I got familiar with the place. I did go by there and Mr. Truly gave me a job.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you getting better pay there than you had at your former job?

Mr. NORMAN. At the Chevrolet company?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I was getting better pay there.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?

Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?

Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.

Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have any other questions.

Mr. BALL. I have one question.

On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.

Mr. BALL. And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law? Have you ever been convicted of a crime?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. At the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You testified that you had not seen Oswald except this one occasion in the morning. Did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen Oswald on that morning?

Mr. NORMAN. Not until after----

Mr. McCLOY. After the assassination?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; that is the only time.

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?

Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.

Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.

Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.

Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to go back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went out in front?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then came back?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After you had gone to the first floor?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative?

Mr. NORMAN. I remember, I don't know if this is the only time or not, but I remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and I can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out with?

Mr. NORMAN. I know James Jarman and I went out. I can't remember.

Representative FORD. May I ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography?

Mr. BALL. Clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school.

He is 26 years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. I think that is all.

Mr. McCLOY. Thank you, Mr. Norman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for coming.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES JARMAN, JR.

Mr. BELIN. Chief Justice Warren, this is Mr. Jarman.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you do. Glad to see you.

Mr. BELIN. Congressman Ford----

Mr. McCLOY. Would you hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JARMAN. I do.

Mr. BALL. The statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your examination before the Commission?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Hasn't it, Mr. Jarman?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please?

Mr. JARMAN. James Jarman, Junior.

Mr. BALL. What do they call you, Junior?

Mr. JARMAN. Junior.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. JARMAN. 4930 Echo.

Mr. BALL. Are you married?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. JARMAN. 34.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. JARMAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Have you lived there all your life?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. BALL. You still live there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. JARMAN. To the 10th grade and went to California in 1947 and stayed there for about a year.

Mr. BALL. What did you do in California?

Mr. JARMAN. I was living with my aunt at the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you work?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was still in school.

Mr. BALL. What school did you go to?

Mr. JARMAN. Alameda High.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you came back, after you left California?

Mr. JARMAN. I came back to Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school any more?

Mr. JARMAN. No, I went into service.

Mr. BALL. What year did you go in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. 1948.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. JARMAN. I was in the service up until 1952.

Mr. BALL. What service?

Mr. JARMAN. U.S. Army.

Mr. BALL. And did you enlist in 1948?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Enlisted?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did 4 years in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive an honorable discharge from the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I came out and stayed out for about until July of 1953.

Mr. BALL. Then what?

Mr. JARMAN. And reenlisted in the service again.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the Army this time?

Mr. JARMAN. Until 1956.

Mr. BALL. And were you discharged then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I started working at the Texas School Book Depository for about 2 months after.

Mr. BALL. After you got out of the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are still there; are you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there any period of time since 1956 to 1964 that you didn't work there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many times?

Mr. JARMAN. I started in 1956. I worked from August up until November, and I was laid off until December the same year and I started back again and I worked up until 1958 I believe, 1958 or 1959, and I quit there and went to Parkland Hospital. From there I went back to the Depository. And I got laid off again and I went to Bakers Hotel, and I think it was in 1961 I went back to the Depository and I have been there ever since.

Mr. BALL. What was your job at the Depository in November of 1963, last fall?

Mr. JARMAN. Checker.

Mr. BALL. What does a checker do?

Mr. JARMAN. He checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools.

Mr. BALL. Do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have your----

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On a table. You have a table?

Mr. JARMAN. I have a table with a scale and I weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. Only as a coworker.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him while he was working there?

Mr. JARMAN. I have had him to correct orders at various times. That is about all.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about politics?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Religion?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Anything at all?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until November the 22d.

Mr. BALL. Not until that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Not until that day.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald have any friends there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether Oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Most of the time he brought his lunch.

Mr. BALL. Most of the time he brought his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, occasionally. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. I don't understand.

Mr. JARMAN. I mean sometimes he would go out of the building. One time I know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch.

Mr. BALL. There is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at 10 o'clock, isn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service?

Mr. JARMAN. I think once or twice he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over by the coffee table where they make coffee.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. That is the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?

Mr. JARMAN. About 5 minutes after 8.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there when you got there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him the first time?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring your lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do about lunch that day?

Mr. JARMAN. I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. JARMAN. It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Where in the domino room?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and I put it in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Oswald that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. I had him to correct an order. I don't know exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Oh, approximately. Nine, ten?

Mr. JARMAN. It was around, it was between eight and nine, I would say.

Mr. BALL. Between 8 and 9?

Mr. JARMAN. Between 5 minutes after 8 and 9.

Mr. BALL. You had him correct an order?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. I talked to him again later on that morning.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to him?

Mr. JARMAN. In between two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. And what was said by him and by you?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm.

Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you quit for lunch?

Mr. JARMAN. Went in the rest room and washed up.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.

Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge?

Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor.

Mr. BALL. On the second floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?

Mr. JARMAN. Came back and went down to the window.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. Where Oswald and I was talking.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. JARMAN. Between those two rows of bins.

Mr. BALL. Where Oswald and you had been talking?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. JARMAN. I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Mr. BALL. You say you ate the rest of it when?

Mr. JARMAN. Walking around on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I was standing.

Mr. BALL. And did you have the pop in your hand, too?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; I had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other.

Mr. BALL. You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. On the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I wasn't. I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. After his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. Did you have lunch with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. When you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. I throwed the paper that I had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and I took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the Dr. Pepper machine.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. JARMAN. Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. BALL. With who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

Mr. BALL. You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. JARMAN. No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. JARMAN. I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. JARMAN. Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand?

Mr. JARMAN. I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. JARMAN. On the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. BALL. Who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the Book Depository?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Charles Givens and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. He wasn't standing close to me.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was he with?

Mr. JARMAN. He was with the Vice President of the company.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. O. V. Campbell.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. JARMAN. They were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes.

Mr. BALL. You left there, didn't you, and went some place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and myself.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go through and cross the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway there, so we decided to go around.

Mr. BALL. You went in the back door?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. JARMAN. We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. The west side elevator.

Mr. BALL. That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. To the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. JARMAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. BALL. When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. BALL. Which windows did you raise?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. BALL. It would be the fourth window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you then?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Who joined you?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. JARMAN. He took the window next to Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is 480, a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Can you show me the window before which you were standing and out of which you were looking?

Mr. JARMAN. This window here.

Mr. BALL. It is marked W on this picture. Where was Harold Norman, the window out of which Harold Norman was looking?

Mr. JARMAN. He was first right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the one marked with a red arrow?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN. Bonnie Ray Williams was in this one.

Mr. BALL. Next to the window of Norman, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was----

Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that?

Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who are they?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your picture taken, did you not?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?

Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the assassination was.

Mr. BALL. And did you do that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.

Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as Commission Exhibit 494.

Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.

Mr. BALL. You are on your knees?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What does it show?

Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was passing.

Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men?

Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing.

Mr. BALL. It shows their position?

Mr. JARMAN. At the time.

Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you have seen that, Congressman.

Representative FORD. This is yourself here?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the photograph.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?

Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire.

Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?

Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one.

Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President.

Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything?

Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.

Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster?

Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember?

Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. After you got down where?

Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Down the west side?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which you ran, didn't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?

Mr. JARMAN. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And who opened it?

Mr. JARMAN. I did.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window?

Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.

Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and Harold Norman was over to the side of me.

Mr. BALL. What window?

Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the second window.

Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last Friday, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side?

Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also.

Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window?

Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger train and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something that he had heard cartridges?

Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had went to this window.

Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean?

Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out this window.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the window that is shown in 489?

Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows.

Mr. BALL. Between the two?

Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window.

Mr. BALL. To that window?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say?

Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there?

Mr. JARMAN. None.

Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards the----

Mr. JARMAN. This one here.

Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. This one right here.

Mr. BALL. That one marked Y.

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at Z?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.

Mr. BALL. They block your view?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you could see from Z?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line near the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins?

Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins.

Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see when you were along this west wall?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you were standing there at the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd better get the hell from up here.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to?

Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?

Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the first one I seen was Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else did you see?

Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another employee.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.

Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman.

Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first?

Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer.

Mr. BALL. How was he dressed?

Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes.

Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.

Mr. BALL. Hard-hat?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long?

Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside.

Mr. BALL. The officer did?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.

Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple of times.

Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning.

Mr. BALL. The next day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book Depository Building that afternoon?

Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when they turned us loose and told us to go home.

Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the employees were missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing?

Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen Lee Oswald, and they said no.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who.

Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Charles Givens?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else?

Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall.

Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had.

Mr. McCLOY. He had been there?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later?

Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him up.

Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He didn't?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was?

Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute.

Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head.

Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought.

Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?

Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.

Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?

Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.

Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window?

Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.

Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?

Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.

Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years, two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three?

Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my mind then.

Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's motorcade route?

Mr. JARMAN. That morning.

Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How did you find out about it?

Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.

Representative FORD. What is his name?

Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.

Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee?

Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass.

Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this?

Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30 and 9:00. I am not sure.

Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming by the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.

Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or Mrs. Lee talk?

Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell Oswald of the route?

Mr. JARMAN. He asked me.

Representative FORD. What was his reaction?

Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.

Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the President's motorcade coming by the building.

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.

Representative FORD. But in front of the building?

Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building.

Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building.

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or did you go down Houston?

Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned going north on Houston.

Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where?

Mr. JARMAN. Right here.

Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then?

Mr. JARMAN. This way.

Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator?

Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.

Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six?

Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.

Representative FORD. You could see it was on six?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. This was about what time?

Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.

Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor?

Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? Do you remember that?

Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants?

Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt?

Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know?

Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you?

Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor."

And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?

Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?

Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.

And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Are you a married man?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family?

Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all.

Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you are the same Howard Leslie Brennan who testifled this morning here?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know a George Murray, of the National Broadcasting Co.?

Mr. BRENNAN. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co.----

Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, you realize.

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever worked for the Union Terminal Co. in Dallas?

Mr. BRENNAN. I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the Texas School Book Depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? Did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone?

Mr. BRENNAN. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. That is all.

Mr. BRENNAN. Is there another Howard Brennan?

Mr. BELIN. Well, sir; we don't know. We wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone.

Mr. BRENNAN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Brennan.

Mr. BRENNAN. I would like to ask a question off the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

TESTIMONY OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

Mr. BELIN. Next we will call Mr. Truly.

Mr. McCLOY. Will you raise your right hand, and stand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TRULY. I do.

Mr. McCLOY. I would like to state, Mr. Truly, what the purpose of this hearing is.

This is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the President, to get as much knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the School Book Depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of November 22d.

Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. TRULY. Roy Sansom Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where do you live?

Mr. TRULY. I live at 4932 Jade Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. No. I have been in Dallas since 1925.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, sir?

Mr. TRULY. Hubbard, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And what was your birth date?

Mr. TRULY. August 29, 1907.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, where did you go to school?

Mr. TRULY. I finished high school at Hubbard.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mr. TRULY. In Texas.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do after you finished high school?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I came to Dallas in the fall of that year and I have been there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. For whom did you become employed when you came to Dallas?

Mr. TRULY. I believe--my father ran a cafe here in Dallas, and I worked with him a short while. And then in the fall of 1925, I went to work for Higginbotham, Bailey, Logan Co.

Mr. BELIN. What business is that?

Mr. TRULY. That is wholesale drygoods.

Mr. BELIN. And how long did you work with them?

Mr. TRULY. I believe a little less than a year.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for National Casket Co.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. I couldn't be certain. Several years--maybe 3 or 4 or 5 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in what capacity did you work for them?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets.

Mr. BELIN. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. TRULY. I worked a short time at the Dallas Coffin Co., several months. It wasn't very long. And I left there and during the depression I worked for several things. I drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. TRULY. I believe I even worked for the WPA back there in those days.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And after the depression, where did you start working then?

Mr. TRULY. I went to work for the Texas School Book Depository in July 1934.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been employed by the Texas School Book Depository since that date, since July 1934?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity have you worked for that company?

Mr. TRULY. First, when I first went to work for this company, I had charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. I filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks.

Mr. BELIN. And then what?

Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time.

During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.

Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?

Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.

Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.

Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.

Mr. BELIN. You have been superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository. And do you have any other positions with the company at this time?

Mr. TRULY. I am a director--I am a member of the board of directors of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a State organization or a private company?

Mr. TRULY. It is a private corporation.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when did you first hear of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. I heard the name on or about October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Of what year?

Mr. TRULY. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you hear the name? Could you just relate to the Commission the circumstances, if you would, please?

Mr. TRULY. I received a phone call from a lady in Irving who said her name was Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did Mrs. Paine say, and what did you say?

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly"--words to this effect--you understand--"Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect.

And I told Mrs.--she said, "I have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately."

Now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as I can remember the conversation over the telephone.

And I told Mrs. Paine that--to send him down, and I would talk to him--that I didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not?

Mr. TRULY. No. I believe that was the first and the last time that I talked to Mrs. Paine.

In fact, I could not remember her name afterwards until I saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else on--what was this--October 15th--about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was on October 15th.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember about Lee Harvey Oswald on that day?

Mr. TRULY. She told me she would tell him to come down and see me.

So he came in, introduced himself to me, and I took him in my office and interviewed him. He seemed to be quiet and well mannered.

I gave him an application to fill out, which he did.

Mr. BELIN. Did he fill it out in front of you, or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; he did. And he told me--I asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the Marine Corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the Marines.

I questioned him about any past activities. I asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. So thinking that he was just out of the Marines, I didn't check any further back. I didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. He looked like a nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. He used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time.

So I told him if he would come to work on the morning of the 16th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. So he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents.

He asked me if I would hold that for 3 or 4 days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily.

So some 4 days or so later--I don't remember the exact day--he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent.

He finished filling it out. And I sent it up to Mr. Campbell who makes out the payroll for the company.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on October 15th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he told me that he needed a job. He said he had a wife and child to support. And he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days.

And I told Lee Oswald that I had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. But I didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because I didn't have any openings for a permanent person. And he said he would be glad to have any type of work I would give him, because he did need--and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else from that conversation on October 15th?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that I was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that.

He left, and I didn't see him any more until the morning of the 16th.

Mr. BELIN. What were his hours of work to be?

Mr. TRULY. His hours were from 8 in the morning until 4:45 in the afternoon.

His lunch period was from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a time clock there that they punch or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work?

Mr. TRULY. He came to work the next morning. I told him what his duties were to be--would be filling book orders. And I told Mr. Shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department.

Now, this particular thing as to whether I called a boy or Mr. Shelley did--anyway, we put Lee Oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. This boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. He worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. And from then on he worked alone.

He would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. But he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down from the office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. We have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. But he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders.

Mr. BELIN. What publishers were those?

Mr. TRULY. The main publisher was Scott, Foresman and Co.

Now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. They are one of our biggest publishers. So it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. Possibly he filled some of Gregg Publishing Co. and others. But when he would run out of Scott, Foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order.

Incidentally, not only Scott, Foresman orders were billed separately. There would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Well, perhaps you might explain to the Commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders.

Mr. TRULY. We are agents for a number of publishers. We furnish offices for those who desire them in Texas. And our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books.

Now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that.

And the location of the books--each publisher's books are to themselves. They are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors.

On the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from.

And then in the basement the same.

The fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. It is reserve stock.

But the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker.

Mr. DULLES. What would reserve stock mean?

Mr. TRULY. Actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. It is part of our stock. But we can carry a limited amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. So they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be 10 or 15 or 20 on the shelf on the first floor. They will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. And they replenish the first floor stock from that.

And many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. And they bring them to the first floor. All orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor.

Mr. BELIN. Where, generally, are Scott, Foresman books kept?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor and the sixth floor. We have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. And this is the area where Lee Harvey Oswald worked?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. That publisher?

Mr. TRULY. That publisher. He had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books?

Mr. TRULY. The orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher.

The boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand.

Various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by publishers.

Scott Foresman could be here, there would be a stock of Gregg and Southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. And the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, they can tell.

On each order it says, "SF" for Scott, Foresman on each invoice and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Most of them use a clipboard. They may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. That saves them going back to the table continually for one order. These orders amount from anything to $3 or $4 to $300 or $400, on up.

But usually if a boy is filling Scott, Foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many.

But during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip.

Mr. BELIN. Who else worked on Scott, Foresman other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it.

But Scott, Foresman was one of our publishers that I would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill.

And we have a lot of those orders.

You can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. They are easier to fill.

Usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders.

Mr. BELIN. When they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. And they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice.

Then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight.

Mr. BELIN. And, as I understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that Lee Harvey Oswald did when he was working for your company?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. And each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. And the order filler's number. Our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day.

We could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others.

And we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. We didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find generally--would you classify Lee Harvey Oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee?

Mr. TRULY. I would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. I wasn't on that floor constantly. The boy, from all reports to me, and what I have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. He just kept moving. And he did a good day's work.

Mr. BELIN. What was his pay?

Mr. TRULY. $1.25 an hour.

Mr. BELIN. 5-day week?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he miss many days of work?

Mr. TRULY. We had no record of him missing any days.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, was your company open on Armistice Day, November 11th, or not? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. We usually are closed on that day.

Now, I just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 496, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and I ask you to state if you know what that is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 496 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This is a copy of the application blank that Oswald filled out. I am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. All the work that he ever did was put his number or something.

Mr. BELIN. Well, my first question is this: Is this particular form a form of your company?

Mr. TRULY. That is one form; yes. We changed it a little bit, and this might have been just one that I pulled out. I can't recall whether it is the one we use now or the one we did use.

Mr. BELIN. Well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he came for employment?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him fill this out? Was it in your office or not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. He was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my desk.

Mr. BELIN. He filled this Exhibit 496 out on your desk?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence Exhibit 496.

495 as yet has not been offered. And I don't know if 494 has been offered or not.

But, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 494, 495, and 496 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, are there any other observations you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald as an employee during the month of October 1963, or during the month of November, prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. TRULY. Nothing that I can recall.

I would speak to him in the morning when I would come through, and I would say, "Good morning, Lee," and he would say, "Good morning, sir."

I would ask him how he was. Occasionally I would ask about his baby, and he would usually smile a big smile when I asked him how his new baby was. And that was just about the extent of my conversation that I can remember with the boy.

But I usually saw him every morning as I would come through. He would be working around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins and shelf space.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees?

Mr. TRULY. No; I never noticed that anywheres. In fact, I would be inclined--well--I never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking, maybe asking where books were or something.

I don't know what he would say. But very little conversation he had with anyone.

And he worked by himself. His job was something that he needed no help with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. It wasn't a teamwork job at all.

Consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys.

I thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally you have to spread your boys out and say, "Quit talking so much, let's get to work."

And it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally?

Mr. TRULY. I never was aware that he brought a lunch. I would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention. Offhand, it seemed to be not too much--a Coca-Cola, Dr. Pepper, and some little thing.

Maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper.

Mr. BELIN. You would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure so; yes.

And occasionally--I didn't always go to lunch at 12--usually a little after. And he would have to pass my door to go out the front. Occasionally I had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. I seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or anything like that?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to November 22, did you have any discussion with him about the Presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it?

Mr. TRULY. I never heard him talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to him myself.

Mr. BELIN. Any other things about Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22 that you can think of?

Mr. TRULY. Offhand I cannot recall a thing.

Just like I said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job.

Mr. BELIN. If you turn behind you, you will see Commission Exhibit No. 362, and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "Texas School Book Depository." You see the room marked Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located? This is the front of the building here at the top.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it was in the place marked Mr. Truly's office that Lee Harvey Oswald filled out in front of you on your desk Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And also the withholding slip?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to take you to the morning of November 22d.

First let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the Texas School Book Depository? Was that first on the morning of November 22d that you heard that, or at any prior date?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall. I don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What time did you get to work on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Around 8 o'clock, or shortly thereafter.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I am almost certain that I saw him early that morning as I came in, and spoke to him.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. I think he was around the front part of the Scott, Foresman bins.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mr. TRULY. On the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Was he filling orders?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently; yes, sir. I don't recall too close. But I am almost certain that I talked to him that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. If there was anything, I just said "Good morning, Lee", and he said, "Good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if I saw him that morning, which I am almost certain I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him any other time during that day?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot recall. I believe I saw him that morning later on, around his work. But I probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you leave for lunch, Mr. Truly?

Mr. TRULY. As near as I know, it was between somewheres around 12:10 or shortly after, possibly 12:15.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you go out to lunch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to eat?

Mr. TRULY. We didn't go anywheres. Mr. Campbell and I----

Mr. BELIN. That is Mr. O. V. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. Mr. O. V. Campbell, vice president--and I had started out for lunch. I don't know as we had any particular place in mind. We ate at several places around there.

It was around 12:10 or 12:15, I would say, to the nearest of my memory.

As we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the President come by.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you were standing with Mr. Campbell?

Mr. TRULY. I would judge out in Elm Street, 10 to 15 or 20 feet from the front steps. We first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 495, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is the front entrance to our building.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction would the camera be pointing?

Mr. TRULY. Almost straight out from it. It would not be--well, it could be on a little angle.

Mr. BELIN. I mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south?

Mr. TRULY. North.

Mr. BELIN. And the camera would be pointing north on Exhibit 495.

I wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and Mr. Campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "A" if you would.

Mr. TRULY. The street curved there, I suppose. I think possibly along here somewheres.

Mr. BELIN. You have marked a letter "A" on Exhibit 495. Now, I believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to put up on the board Commission Exhibit No. 361. The bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir.

And the top faces roughly south.

And here is the Texas School Book Depository Building--located at Houston and Elm.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 361 with the letter "T" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade.

Mr. TRULY. I could be off a few feet, but I believe possibly over this way just a bit--that is within 3 or 4 or 5 feet of this area.

We were almost out in this. And I think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter "T" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you know approximately what time you got there, Mr. Truly? To the best of your recollection.

Mr. TRULY. 3 or 4 minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps 2 or 3 minutes, and then I don't believe--we just gradually moved out a bit.

And then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of Main on to Houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any other company employees with you other than Mr. Campbell at that time?

Mr. TRULY. Well, I did. I noticed several. Mrs. Reid was standing there close. And it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. But I cannot--I think Bill Shelley was standing over to my right as I faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area.

I noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, I believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. And I didn't see them when the motorcade passed.

But they had started across Houston Street up Elm, and they came back later on, and I think those were the ones that were--two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. Possibly they could not see over the crowd. They are short boys. I wasn't doing too well at that, myself.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

What did you next see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. Do you mind me----

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to turn that over, sir? Will that be easier for you?

Mr. TRULY. It might be easier for the gentlemen when I point this out.

Now, what was the question?

Mr. BELIN. My question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade?

Mr. TRULY. All right.

We saw the motorcycle escort come off of Main and turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. Main would be down here, and it would be coming off Houston, heading towards the building?

Mr. TRULY. Headed towards the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And it went on down this way. And immediately after----

Mr. BELIN. By "this way" you mean the street marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway?

Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you see happen?

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.

The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see--I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.

I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think--words to that effect.

I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, just moments later I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And that is--that just popped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me, if I can--turning to Exhibit 362 again, I wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace your route inside there. Point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway."

Mr. TRULY. I believe along right there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Could you put a "T" on Exhibit 362, if you would.

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I am almost positive that is the place.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on Exhibit 495, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, he said to you what?

Mr. TRULY. Where is the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you say to him?

Mr. TRULY. I said "This way."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir--starting from point "T" on Exhibit 362.

Mr. TRULY. I ran in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. You better mark on the exhibit, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Took this route. There is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here.

Mr. BELIN. Is it here, or here?

Mr. TRULY. No, wait a minute.

There--right here. We came in this way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still want to put point "T" up here?

Mr. TRULY. No. This was on the steps, wasn't it? This is where I am sure he asked me.

Mr. BELIN. You better cross out the other one, then.

Mr. TRULY. I saw this thing here, and I thought it was that little swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the main door?

Now, you have point "T."

Now, will you trace the route from point "T"?

Mr. TRULY. We came through this door here. The policeman right behind me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. This is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you are pointing to the counter on Exhibit 362, you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You call that the will call counter?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What happened when you got there?

Mr. TRULY. There is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. We never keep it locked. But on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. And this bolt had slid out. It has done that on occasions. I started to run through this little opening, and I ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. And so I just pulled it back and continued on through.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, the door didn't swing through. The bolt stuck. So you were stuck by the door. The policeman ran into you. And then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go? You might continue with your pen on Exhibit 362, showing the route.

All right.

Now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Truly. I note on Exhibit 362 right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. Why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back?

Mr. TRULY. Those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. So this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I looked up. This is two elevators in the same well. This elevator over here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the west one?

Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator--as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time.

This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button.

Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?

Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.

Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?

Mr. TRULY. The east elevator?

There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed----

Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."

Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.

I called upstairs "Turn loose the elevator."

Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?

Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call?

Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator."

Those boys understand that language.

Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?

Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.

Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?

Mr. TRULY. Two times.

Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice, I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

First of all, did the elevator come down?

Mr. TRULY. It did not.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. Could you again follow--from Point B, could you show which way you went?

All right.

Mr. TRULY. What is this here?

Mr. BELIN. This is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. But you went up the stairs right here?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. And where was this officer at that time?

Mr. TRULY. This officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway.

By the time I reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, I assume--I know.

Mr. BELIN. Was he a few feet behind you then?

Mr. TRULY. He was a few feet. It is hard for me to tell. I ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs?

Mr. TRULY. If there had been anybody in that area, I would have seen him on the outside. But I was content--I was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--I mean where the stairways continued.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Exhibit 497.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 497, for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. This is entitled "Texas School Book Depository, Diagram of Second Floor."

You can sit down, if you would, please, Mr. Truly.

And would you, on Exhibit 497, if you would kind of take an arrow to show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and starting up the stairs towards the third.

Now, you marked that with pen.

Could you put a "T" on that, if you would, please?

Now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the No. 22 in a circle on it, on Exhibit 497. Is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time?

Mr. TRULY. No; that is always clear. There is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. But there is always a pathway. There is a post, right about where this 22 is. You can always clear it and come by there. I don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 498.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 498 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state, if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. Yes. This is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, as you take a look at the picture Exhibit 498, is this a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is this, to the extreme left? Is that the wall for the staircase?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is back over here. This picture is just part of this vestibule out here.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or what is shown there?

Mr. TRULY. It appears to be pointing east.

Mr. BELIN. And I see a door with a glass in it.

Could you show where on this diagram Exhibit 497 this door with the glass is?

Do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door?

Mr. TRULY. That is it.

Mr. BELIN. What number is that?

Mr. TRULY. It is number 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.

Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

All right.

You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Let me ask you this now. How far was the officer's gun from Lee Harvey Oswald when he asked the question?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of his body?

Mr. TRULY. Towards the middle portion of his body.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see Lee Harvey Oswald's hands?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see----

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I could, yes. I could see most of him, because I was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way.

Mr. BELIN. When you say you were looking in the room on an angle----

Mr. TRULY. What I mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. By this door, you mean door No. 23 is at an angle to door No. 24?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. One this way and the other one is this way.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you see whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?

Mr. TRULY. I noticed nothing in either hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see both of his hands?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure I did. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I did.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did Officer Baker stand there with Lee Harvey Oswald after you saw them?

Mr. TRULY. He left him immediately after I told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. I said, yes. The officer left him immediately.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything?

Mr. TRULY. Not a thing.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?

Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 499.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 499 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. TRULY. That is the interior of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. And what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on Exhibit 499?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. And does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground of the picture?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so.

Representative FORD. Which doorway would that be?

Mr. TRULY. Number 24. The camera seems to be right in the doorway when that picture was taken. You cannot see the doorway very well.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask you a question?

Do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with Lee Harvey Oswald into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. I never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him.

Mr. DULLES. As he was going up the stairs?

Mr. TRULY. As he got to the second floor landing. While I was going around, he saw a movement.

Mr. DULLES. And he followed that?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Representative FORD. He saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom?

Mr. TRULY. He saw the back of a man inside the door--I suppose door No. 23.

But that isn't my statement. I didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day.

Mr. BELIN. I believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. Perhaps we can just briefly identify them.

Here is a picture which has been marked Commission Exhibit 500.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 500 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state what this is.

Mr. TRULY. This is a picture of the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What direction is the camera facing there?

Mr. TRULY. East.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 501?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 501 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. This picture is part of the lunchroom. And I would say the camera must be facing northeast.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 502?

Mr. TRULY. This is the lunchroom looking west. Northwest, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw Officer Baker standing when he was talking to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, you then went up to the third floor with Officer Baker.

Mr. TRULY. We continued on until we reached the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by the way, I have used the name Officer Baker.

When did you find out what his name was?

Mr. TRULY. I never did know for sure what his name was until he was down to the building and you were interviewing him last week.

Mr. BELIN. This was on Friday, March 20th?

Mr. TRULY. I had heard his name was Baker or Burton or various other names. But I never did try to find out what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 502 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. On the second floor, was there any elevator there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, I am sure not.

Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. When we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor.

Mr. BELIN. What about the west elevator? Was that on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I am sure it wasn't, or I could not have seen the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. I am almost positive that it wasn't there.

Mr. DULLES. You said you released the elevator and let it go down?

Mr. TRULY. No; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Exhibit 487 appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. As I understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I started around towards the stairway, and then I noted that this east elevator was there. So I told the officer, "Come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put the letter "T" at the end of that line, please?

All right.

Now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor?

Mr. TRULY. We rode the east elevator to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stop at the sixth floor at all?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. We ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. We ran immediately to the west side of the building. There is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. We did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. There we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No. At that time, he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever prior to meeting you again on March 20th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you think the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. I thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the WPA project, behind the WPA project west of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? About where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When--some time in the course, I believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. Then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. And then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the roof.

He saw nothing.

He came over. And some time about then I said, "Officer, I think"--let's back up.

I believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "Be careful, this man will blow your head off."

And I told the officer that I didn't feel like the shots came from the building.

I said, "I think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to that at all?

Mr. TRULY. I don't recall exactly what he said. I believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. I don't remember. I have heard so many things since, you know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, Mr. Truly, on March 20th, you and I visited about this particular incident you have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this officer, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And as a matter of fact you and Officer Baker and I tried to reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do all this, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you remember watching me getting over with Officer Baker in front of the sheriff's office on Market Street--pardon me--Houston Street, with a stopwatch?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then what is the fact as to whether or not you and Officer Baker and I recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with Officer Baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to the second floor. Do you remember that?

Mr. TRULY. I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. When we recreated that incident, did we walk or run?

Mr. TRULY. We walked. We trotted.

Mr. BELIN. We trotted.

Did we get out of breath, do you remember?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that day with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. I think so--which was a little more than a trot, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--I think we did it twice, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. But I was thinking it was somewheres under 2 minutes. Between a minute and a half and 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I think, will be able to testify to that in the morning.

Representative FORD. But in reconstructing the incident, you went more or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. As far as I can tell; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You ran at about the same speed, do you believe?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I believe so.

We tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that again?

Mr. TRULY. I said when the officer and I ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a little bit more coming in than we were when he and I came in March 20th. I don't believe so. But it wouldn't be enough to matter there.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because--I could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. You mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if I passed--yes; I could. I beg your pardon.

I could see it from the fifth floor. I didn't notice it anywheres up there. I wasn't really looking for it, however.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? If you know.

Mr. TRULY. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?

Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?

Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.

I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And then you got down eventually to the first floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?

Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is hard to say.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?

Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.

Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.

There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.

So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.

First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.

Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?

Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.

So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?

Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?

Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you got that information?

Mr. TRULY. Chief Lumpkin of the Dallas Police Department was standing a few feet from me. I told Chief Lumpkin that I had a boy missing over here--"I don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." And I gave him his description. And he says, "Just a moment. We will go tell Captain Fritz."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Chief Lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and I assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature--I didn't hear it. And then he turned to me and says, "Now we will go upstairs".

So we got on one of the elevators, I don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. I didn't know Captain Fritz was on the sixth floor. And he was over in the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. By the stairs there?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; by the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. And there were other officers with him. Chief Lumpkin stepped over and told Captain Fritz that I had something that I wanted to tell him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. So Captain Fritz left the men he was with and walked over about 8 or 10 feet and said, "What is it, Mr. Truly," or words to that effect.

And I told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. And he says, "Thank you, Mr. Truly. We will take care of it."

And I went back downstairs in a few minutes.

There was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who Oswald was. I told the reporter, "You must have ears like a bird, or something. I don't want to say anything about a boy I don't know anything about. This is a terrible thing." Or words to that effect.

I said, "Don't bother me. Don't mention the name. Let's find something out."

So I went back downstairs with Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. That I can't answer. I don't remember when I went over there. It was sometime before I learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. It could have been at the time I went up and told them about Lee Harvey Oswald being missing. I cannot remember. But I didn't know it. I didn't see them find them, and I didn't know at the time--I don't know how long they had the things.

Mr. BELIN. There has been some testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?

The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?

Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. They were there at the time of November 22.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 487, the line marked "W", will you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins are located?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, it would be.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see over those bins?

Mr. TRULY. You cannot.

Mr. BELIN. I mean when you are at the window--say you are in the southwest corner.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; you cannot. They obscure the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth floor at about the time of November 22, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit 483, could you state, if you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor around November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. This is it----

Mr. BELIN. This is north right here?

Mr. TRULY. They were in this area right here.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "W" at one end or the other. Would that be a fairly accurate----

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; in the west end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where they were laying the floor?

Mr. TRULY. That is where they were laying the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that they had moved books in the process of laying that floor?

Mr. TRULY. I knew they had to. I didn't know where they moved them particularly until that time. I don't suppose I had been up on that floor in several days.

Mr. BELIN. By that time, you mean November 22?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did it appear that they had moved them?

Mr. TRULY. They moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime on November 22d did you go to the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything particularly about the books that were in the southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons that were moved. But I did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these cartons up there. They were just piled up there more or less at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you what has been marked as Exhibit 503, which is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth floor as you saw it on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 503 for identification.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice some rows of books along the east wall. Did those books go all the way to the corner or not?

Mr. TRULY. They did not in front of the window extend very much in height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Was this prior to November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there on November 22d, did those books still go to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. There were several cartons that had been moved out of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of the east window.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any books that are called Rolling Readers?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what floor those Rolling Readers are usually kept on?

Mr. TRULY. The first floor and the sixth floor. Most of them are on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where on the sixth floor the Rolling Readers are?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Approximately where?

Mr. TRULY. They were--I would say they were thirty or forty feet from the corner. They were not in the area that the boys moved books from.

Mr. BELIN. Well, handing you Exhibit 483, I wonder if you would mark with your pen the letters "RR" for Rolling Readers. Would there have been any occasion at all to move any Rolling Readers from the area you have marked on Exhibit 483 to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time for any purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Are the Rolling Reader cartons average size or small size or large size?

Mr. TRULY. They are much smaller than the average size cartons on that floor.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later on?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Now, handing you Commission Exhibit 504, there appear to be some boxes near a window on a floor of your building. And I note that on two of the boxes they are marked "Ten Rolling Readers." Are those the Rolling Reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "RR" on Commission Exhibit 483?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 504 for identification.)

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative FORD. The Rolling Reader boxes were not ordinarily in that southeast corner?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. That was not the place for them. They were 40 feet or so away.

Representative FORD. May I ask--the job that Oswald had, how did you designate it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he filled orders.

Representative FORD. He was an order filler?

Mr. TRULY. Order filler.

Representative FORD. Do you keep records of the orders that are filled by each order filler every day?

Mr. TRULY. Not every day; no, sir. Occasionally we would double check on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in succession for a whole week.

Representative FORD. Would you know what orders Oswald filled November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I would not.

Representative FORD. You would have no way of checking that?

Mr. TRULY. No. They would have been some orders that he filled the 21st that were not checked and out of the house on the 22d. And I could not tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir.

Representative FORD. When an order filler fills an order, does he make his initial or mark on it?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; he does. Up there where it says "L", which is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under "C" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends it on for packing.

Representative FORD. Well, it would seem to me that every order that was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the individual.

Mr. TRULY. You see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they are shipped. The order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. They don't put the date on them when they fill them.

Representative FORD. What I am trying to find out--is there any way to trace by the orders that were filled by Oswald on the morning of November 22d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders that might be dated November 22d--might have been filled--if they were dated November 22d and had Oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those on November 22d. But if they were billed and dated on the 20th and 21st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many of those he filled on the 22d.

Representative FORD. Have you ever gone back through your orders for the 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Just to take a survey?

Mr. TRULY. We have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from A to Z alphabetically in our files. We would have to take--we would have to go through every invoice in each file, from A to Z, in order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. And it would be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was dated November 22d--because we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated November 21st, he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning of the 22d. But we could not tell whether he filled them the 21st or the 22d.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, in line with Congressman Ford's questions, was there ever a clipboard found in your building at all?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. Sometime later there was a clipboard found that had two or three orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. What were those orders dated?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the clipboard was found?

Mr. TRULY. I later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the stairway, behind some cartons. I do not remember just exactly how many orders were on it, but I think it was only two or three.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who found it?

Mr. TRULY. A boy by the name of Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BELIN. Is he still one of your employees?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever belonged to any particular employee of yours?

Mr. TRULY. Well, he brought the clipboard to Bill Shelley and told him about it, and he said, "This is an old clipboard I used to use. This is the one that Oswald was using." It was a kind of homemade affair.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he brought it to Bill Shelley, who are you referring to?

Mr. TRULY. I am referring to Frankie Kaiser who brought the clipboard with the orders downstairs and told Bill Shelley that he had found Oswald's clipboard with some orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Had those orders ever been filled or not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. You see, when they fill the orders, they take them off the clipboard. They may have 25 on the clipboard, and after a while they will have 15 or 10 or something.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually filled that were found on the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; they were filled.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that were on there?

Mr. TRULY. I think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. I don't recall what happened to it. At the time nobody considered it of too much significance, I suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. I believe that someone from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. I have this thing all mixed up. It hasn't been very long ago, you know, about the clipboard. I don't know the solution of it. They were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the FBI or the Secret Service, or it could be you, could it?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. TRULY. Just shortly before you.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this question?

Are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything along the lines that Congressman Ford suggested as to who might fill an order or when an order would be posted? In other words, if you come to an order and you see that the order is dated maybe November 21st, but you do not know whether it was filled on November 21st or November 22d, would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The date that we go by is the date the checker checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. He puts it over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. When he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the packing list and the label with the order. Then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees. Do you know of any such check made on the morning of November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I do not recall having made a check in several days before that. We would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. And checking on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. So we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making these errors.

Mr. BELIN. Is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being made on November 22d, or you are sure there was no check on November 22d?

Mr. TRULY. There was no check that I recall. And I am sure there wasn't.

(At this point, the Chairman left the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Could you tell us the approximate date that this individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it a few days after the assassination, or several weeks?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was just a few days afterward because--now, we would have to check upstairs. If these orders are not filled and processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. We have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we get to checking them. If we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the orders.

Representative FORD. In other words, if 2 weeks had passed without the order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was.

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir--less than that, I would say, because we do not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it. But the girls on it--usually 3 or 4 days, if those orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it.

(At this point, the Chairman entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Who is the man who brought the clipboard to you?

Mr. TRULY. Bill Shelley called my attention to it. At that time I do not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and just forgetting about that part of it.

Representative FORD. To your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to Bill Shelley?

Mr. TRULY. Frankie Kaiser.

Representative FORD. Was he an employee of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you know generally where Kaiser found the clipboard?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits?

Mr. BELIN. The diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as Exhibit No. 483. Perhaps you can mark on Exhibit No. 483 with the letter "C" where you think the clipboard was found.

I might at this point on the record say for the Commission that Exhibit 506 purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on Exhibit 506, is numbered 36, and on the Exhibit 483 appears at the end of the arrow with the number 36 on it, which is near where Mr. Truly put his "C". And the number 35 on that same exhibit--the number 35 will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was discovered.

Representative FORD. And 36 is the position of the clipboard?

Mr. BALL. I don't think you can take that as evidence.

Mr. BELIN. This is not evidence. This is just background.

Mr. BALL. This is really an offer of proof on our part. That is the most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of Kaiser who found the clipboard.

Representative FORD. Is there someone here, the staff or Mr. Truly, who knows approximately when the clipboard was found?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I can give you that date in about one minute. According to our records, Frankie Kaiser, when interviewed on December 2d, said that on the morning of December 2d he found a clipboard which he had made and which he had turned over to Lee Harvey Oswald with orders. And we have a list of the orders also in one of the Commission documents. It is Document 7, page 381.

But we are going to have to actually take the deposition of Mr. Kaiser, which we will do when we go to Dallas next week or the week after, or whenever we get to him.

Representative FORD. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Mr. BELIN. Three more pictures, Mr. Truly.

I hand you what the reporter has marked as Exhibit 505.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 505 for identification.)

I ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the second to the third floor, or can't you tell?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps before you came down to get Officer Baker?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk in the area through that door marked number 23. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you do?

Mr. TRULY. Well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the lunchroom that they can come through.

Mr. BELIN. Does that north door appear on Exhibit 501?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That appears to be located east of the Coca Cola machine, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally operate it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. One other question. Just what are Rolling Readers? Is Rolling a company or what is it?

Mr. TRULY. Well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was after you opened the box. But it is a new concept in material for reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. They are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. It is something like--I know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like that. But it has words and sentences and things they can put together.

Mr. DULLES. A square like dice?

Mr. TRULY. That's right. It looks like dice, only they are bigger. They have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them together into sentences and things. Something to stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in their reading.

Mr. BELIN. Are they relatively heavy or light cartons?

Mr. TRULY. They are very light.

Mr. BELIN. The cartons themselves. About how much would a carton of 10 Rolling Readers weigh?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds.

Mr. BELIN. And by 10 Rolling Readers you mean there were 10 sets of the Rolling Readers in each of these cartons shown on Exhibit 504?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we offer in evidence exhibits 490 through 506 inclusive.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 490 through 506, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, I think I heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with Oswald that you said, "That is the last time I saw him until November 16th."

Did I hear you say that?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not. If I did, it was a mistake. I saw him on October 16th, the morning he came to work.

Mr. McCLOY. I put down here that was the last time you had seen him until November 16th.

Mr. TRULY. For the record, if I said that, that is wrong. I meant October 16th.

The CHAIRMAN. Which was the next morning?

Mr. TRULY. That was the next morning after he was told to come to work.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall, Mr. Truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the School Depository, after the 15th of October and before the 22d of November?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall hiring anyone else other than Oswald for that building the same day that I hired Oswald. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at 1917 North Houston.

Mr. DULLES. At a different warehouse?

Mr. TRULY. At a different warehouse. He was laid off November 15th, I believe--November 15th, or something like that.

Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. That is why I was asking the question.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Truly, while Oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the United States agencies, such as FBI, regarding him?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; nothing ever.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald mention to you anything about his trip to Russia and return from Russia?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; he did not. He just told me that he just recently was discharged from the Marines with an honorable discharge. And I suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, I might have investigated those jobs thoroughly.

Mr. DULLES. He did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had?

Mr. TRULY. No. The thing is I thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. And I did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the Marines.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought Jack Dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. Is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.

I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been.

Mr. BELIN. Would you consider him of average intelligence?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.

Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor--from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.

Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.

Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, I assume.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe so, because I think I would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when I got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. Would you have seen it then?

Mr. TRULY. I think so, yes, sir. As we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. I don't know which way I was looking. I was only intent on getting to the seventh floor.

Mr. BELIN. So you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. Was the west elevator on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure it was not on the seventh floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh?

Mr. TRULY. I was not aware of it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Representative FORD. How many employees do you have in the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. We had about 15, I think. We had 19-warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. I think we had 15 men working in our warehouse at Houston and Elm on that day.

Representative FORD. On November 22d.

Mr. DULLES. Would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Possibly any--possibly so. We have one man that checks. He hardly fills any orders. And we have one or two that write up freight. But any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor.

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?

Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Representative FORD. Had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and Oswald?

Mr. TRULY. Not at all. In fact, I was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that I did not believe--still did not believe--maybe I could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until I learned that they found the gun and the shells there. So I had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. I am sure that did not bring Oswald in my mind. But it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names.

Mr. DULLES. When you reported that Oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You did not?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I just said, "I have a man that is missing. I don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name."

Representative FORD. Do you know about what time that was that you told the police?

Mr. TRULY. I could be wrong, but I think it was around 15--between 15 minutes or 20 minutes after the shots, or something. I could be as far off as 5 minutes or so. I don't know. I did not seem to think it was very long. We might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then I might have walked out in the shipping department. Everybody was running up asking questions. Time could fool me. But I did not think it was but about 15 or 20 minutes later.

Representative FORD. In your description of Oswald to Captain Fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that Oswald had on that day?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. No, sir; I just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as 23, and I said 5 feet, 9, about 150 pounds, light brown hair--whatever I picked up off the description there. I did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. I just put down what was on this application blank. That's the reason I called Mr. Aiken, because I did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. I might call a man brown-haired, and he might be blonde.

Mr. DULLES. When you and the officer saw Oswald in the luncheon room, did any words pass between you?

Mr. TRULY. No. The officer said something to the boy.

Mr. DULLES. I mean between you and Oswald.

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Oswald never said a word. Not to me.

Mr. DULLES. What was he doing?

Mr. TRULY. He was just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Did he have a coke?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. No drink?

Mr. TRULY. No drink at all. Just standing there.

Mr. DULLES. Anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. No, sir; I didn't see him panting like he had been running or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any direction?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. He was standing still facing the doorway to the lunchroom. The officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his middle, almost touching.

Mr. DULLES. How long before the President's actual visit on the 22d of November did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I think they said it was announced 72 hours before the assassination that he would take that route.

Mr. DULLES. Was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the School Depository?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never have found anything or any actions to make me feel that they might be connected with it.

Mr. McCLOY. You never observed Oswald conversing with any strange or unidentified characters during his employment with you?

Mr. TRULY. Never.

Mr. DULLES. Did Oswald have any visitors as far as you know?

Mr. TRULY. Never knew of a one; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the building?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. We have a telephone on the first floor that he was free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. He was supposed to ask permission to use the phone. But he could have used the phone.

Mr. DULLES. Pay telephone or office telephone?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; it is a regular office telephone. It is a pushbutton type.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone?

Mr. TRULY. I never remember ever seeing him on the telephone.

Mr. DULLES. Would you have any record or be able to find out now whether he had ever used it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You did not see him on November 22d with any package or any bundle?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly, when we were there on March 20th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with Officer Baker and a Secret Service Agent Howlett--we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and Secret Service Agent Howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where Officer Baker encountered Lee Harvey Oswald? You remember us doing that?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what?

Mr. TRULY. Walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. You remember what time that was? How long did it take?

Mr. TRULY. It seemed to me like it was a minute and 18 seconds, and a minute and 15 seconds. We tried it twice. I believe that is about as near as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. If a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs?

Mr. TRULY. I believe so. I believe it to be.

Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment, you think that is the route that Oswald took?

Mr. TRULY. I think--he had two possible routes there. One of them, he could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to make one more turn. But if he came all the way down the east wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs.

Mr. DULLES. You do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor?

Mr. TRULY. You mean after the shooting? No, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, I saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. And I tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. He had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions.

Mr. DULLES. He could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to that floor and leave it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't believe he would have had time for that.

Representative FORD. He couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. Yes; he could. I suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors.

Mr. BELIN. On both elevators?

Mr. TRULY. That is just the west one only.

Representative FORD. That was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. It would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one.

Mr. DULLES. Would he have to break any glass to do it?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir. The car gate--and then there was an outside gate slatted--slats about this far apart.

Mr. McCLOY. When you entered the building with the officer behind you, when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at that time thrown around the building?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So that Oswald could have slipped out without an officer having been at the doorway at that point?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think so. There were many officers running down west of the building. It appears many people thought the shots came from there because of the echo or what.

Mr. DULLES. Is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; it is. From the nature--from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped.

Mr. McCLOY. From what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir; I think they are. They are good men. They have been with me, most of them, for some time. I have no reason to doubt their word. I do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, Bonnie Williams. He is pretty superstitious, I would say. For 2 or 3 weeks the work was not normal, or a month. The boys did not put out their normal amount of work. Their hearts were not in it. But after that, they have picked up very well. They are doing their work well.

Mr. BELIN. If we can go off the record for just a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.

Mr. TRULY. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir. You have helped us a good deal.

We will recess at this time until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 6 p.m. the President's Commission recessed.)

Wednesday, March 25, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER, MRS. ROBERT A. REID, LUKE MOONEY, EUGENE BOONE, AND M. N. McDONALD

The President's Commission met at 9:50 a.m. on March 25, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Mr. BAKER. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. I will read a little short brief statement to you, Mr. Baker, which will indicate the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of M. L. Baker, Mrs. R. A. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination.

Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Depository Building shortly after the assassination and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas theater.

I read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the inquiry we are making today and we will make of you.

Mr. Belin will conduct the examination.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, would you state your legal name, please for the Commission?

Mr. BAKER. Marrion L. Baker.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as M. L. Baker?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BAKER. With Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BAKER. Almost 10 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Officer Baker?

Mr. BAKER. Thirty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. BAKER. In a little town called Blum, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Blum, Tex.?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I think I went to about the sixth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BAKER. We moved to Dallas and I continued schooling at the Roger Q. Mills School, elementary, went to junior high school, I believe it was called Storey, and then I finished high school in Adamson High School.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. BAKER. I think I got married.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, at this time I must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and Mr. Dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. After you got married, sir, what did you do. I mean in the way of vocation?

Mr. BAKER. I took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the Continental Tin Co.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for Continental?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I quit this job and went to the Ford Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford?

Mr. BAKER. Well, at that time I stayed there approximately 11 months and they laid me off and I went to the, I believe they call it Chance Vought at that time, aircraft.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do at Ford, sir?

Mr. BAKER. I was a glass installer, I believe that is what you would call it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you went to this aircraft factory what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I was a material clerk.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't understand?

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for the aircraft company?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like somewhere around a year and a half.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time it was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and I went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in Oak Cliff there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. BAKER. I was, I guess you would call it a mechanic. I did a little bit of everything there, I did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. BAKER. A little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I became, I went with the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. With the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a course of instruction for the police department?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I went to the Dallas Police Academy School out there.

Mr. BELIN. How long was this schooling period, approximately?

Mr. BAKER. Four months.

Mr. BELIN. After you were graduated from the Dallas Police Academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; at first I was a patrolman and I spent some 23 months in radio patrol division. And then I volunteered solo division.

Mr. BELIN. When you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be----

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last 7 or 8 years?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what?

Mr. BAKER. If you are talking about the squad cars at the time that I worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some one-man squads, too?

Mr. BAKER. Very few.

Mr. BELIN. What about today, do you know what the situation is?

Mr. BAKER. They still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now.

Mr. BELIN. They have a lot of one-man squads now?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Not because of the procedures?

Mr. BAKER. Now, at night they try to ride them two men.

Mr. BELIN. In the daytime what is the situation now?

Mr. BAKER. Usually the downtown squads which I work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?

Mr. BAKER. I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. At this particular day in the office up there before we went out, I was, my partner and I, we received instructions to ride right beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. About when was this that you received these instructions?

Mr. BAKER. Let's see, I believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. This is all made up in the captain's office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Captain Curry?

Mr. BAKER. Chief Curry; our captain is Captain Lawrence.

Mr. BELIN. Were these instructions ever changed?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. When we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you why or why not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. We had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request.

Mr. BELIN. On that day, you mean?

Mr. BAKER. Well, that day and several other occasions when I have escorted them.

Mr. BELIN. On that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed?

Mr. BAKER. They just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, I believe he called it the press, behind the car.

Mr. BELIN. Beyond the press?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you this after the President's plane arrived at the airport or was it before?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like it was after he arrived out there.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already seen him get out of the plane?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or 5 or 10 minutes before, or what?

Mr. BAKER. It was 5 or 10 minutes before.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. It was a two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. You rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown Dallas?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. You say how fast?

Mr. BELIN. No; did the motorcade get to Main Street in Dallas, was it going down Main Street at anytime?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down Main Street commencing at, say, Main and Record Streets.

Mr. BAKER. Well, it was the usual escort. We were traveling about somewhere around 5 to 10 miles an hour.

Mr. DULLES. There is a map right behind you.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Back on the record again.

Mr. DULLES. Would you state exactly where you were riding? We know a good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. There was a car right behind the President's car that followed it, I think 6 or 7 feet right behind the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. That was the Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. That is right. Were you in that gap between the two cars or what?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I was, it seemed to me like, there was this car.

Mr. DULLES. When you say "this car" what do you mean?

Mr. BAKER. That Secret Service car.

Mr. DULLES. The Secret Service car right behind the President?

Mr. BAKER. And there was one more car in there.

Mr. DULLES. Behind that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That was the Vice President's car, wasn't it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And then?

Mr. BAKER. There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one.

Representative BOGGS. The last press car?

Mr. DULLES. The last press car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So you were roughly how far behind the President's car at this stage?

Mr. BAKER. Sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block.

Mr. DULLES. A half block?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; as I say as I turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. You mean as you were turning right from Main on to Houston Street heading north onto Houston, the President's car had already turned to the left off Houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe--pardon me, Mr. Dulles, does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question. I wanted to see where he was.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going down Main Street at around Record at from 5 to 10 miles an hour?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you take up your trip from there, please?

Mr. BAKER. As we approached the corner there of Main and Houston we were making a right turn, and as I came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and I almost lost my balance.

Mr. BELIN. How fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I would say--it wasn't very fast. I almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly.

Mr. DULLES. That is turning from Main into Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow?

Mr. BAKER. I would say from around 5 to 6 or 7 miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance.

Mr. BELIN. From what direction was the wind coming when it hit you?

Mr. BAKER. Due north.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?

Mr. BAKER. As I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?

Mr. BAKER. As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and I will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, if you can--I plan to get that actual chart in a minute. If we could----

Mr. DULLES. I want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there.

Mr. BAKER. This is Main Street and this is Houston. This is the corner that I am speaking of; I made the right turn here. The motorcade and all, as I was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as I got somewhere about right here----

Mr. DULLES. That is halfway down the first block.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; can I interrupt you for a minute?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here.

Mr. BELIN. And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street?

Mr. BAKER. We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Does that answer your question?

Mr. DULLES. That answers my question entirely.

Mr. BELIN. In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?

Mr. BAKER. It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?

Mr. BAKER. It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN. What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER. It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER. On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN. From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER. I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see or do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if I could help anybody or see what was going on because I couldn't see around this bend.

Mr. BELIN. Well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of these shots?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they were pretty well even to me.

Mr. BELIN. They were pretty well even.

Anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the time or saw----

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; except I was looking up and I could tell it was high and I was looking up there and I saw those pigeons flying around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in either of those two buildings either on the northeast or northwest corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at any of those windows?

Mr. BAKER. I kind of glanced over them, but I couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BAKER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much?

Mr. BAKER. From 180 to 200 feet.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you parked the motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if we could go on this plat, Officer Baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and I have turned it upside down.

With Exhibit 361, show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "B" on it, if you would.

Mr. BAKER. Somewhere at this position here, which is approximately 10 feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You have put a dot on Exhibit 361 with the line going to "B" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You, on Friday, March 20, parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on November 22 and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was 10 feet, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, I show you Exhibit 478 and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "B" to this stoplight.

Mr. BAKER. Talking about this one here?

Mr. BELIN. The stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. The arrow with the letter "B" points to the stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the School Book Depository Building, do you remember doing that, on March 20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And it appears on Exhibit 477 that that doorway is recessed, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 45 feet.

Mr. BELIN. This same stoplight appears as you look at Exhibit 477 to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. As I parked here----

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with "B."

Mr. BAKER. And I was looking westward which would be in this direction.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what I will call the peninsula of the park there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the triple underpass.

Representative BOGGS. Where is the underpass?

Mr. BAKER. The underpass is down here. This is really Elm Street, and this would be Main and Commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything else?

Mr. BAKER. Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, you are on Exhibit 361, and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it.

Mr. BELIN. I am trying to see down here.

Mr. DULLES. I just wanted to get a general idea.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 361, sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. The entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here.

Mr. DULLES. As far as that?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; I think Mr. Redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after surveying the situation?

Mr. BAKER. I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.

Mr. BELIN. By this building, you are referring to what?

Mr. BAKER. The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Go on.

Representative BOGGS. You were parked right in front of the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Let me ask you a question. How far away, approximately, were these people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to the Building?

Mr. BAKER. Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.

Mr. BELIN. That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?

Mr. BAKER. There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BELIN. And you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in front of the School Building?

Mr. BAKER. You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 people in this area here.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.

Mr. BELIN. You then ran into the Building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the Building?

Mr. BAKER. As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.

As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BAKER. We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, I would say, the southeast corner of the Building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And he was trying to get that service elevator down there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do?

Mr. BAKER. He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down.

Mr. BELIN. Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here."

Mr. BELIN. How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed like he did it twice.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. I said let's take the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. He said, "Okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And we went up them.

Mr. BELIN. You went up the stairs then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you started up the stairs what was your intention at that time?

Mr. BAKER. My intention was to go all the way to the top where I thought the shots had come from, to see if I could find something there, you know, to indicate that.

Mr. BELIN. And did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

Mr. DULLES. Where was he coming from, do you know?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on over there----

Representative BOGGS. You mean where he was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I hollered at him at that time and said, "Come here." He turned and walked right straight back to me.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you at the time you hollered?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door.

Mr. BELIN. He walked back toward you then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 497 which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the School Book Depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. I want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "Come here". Is there a number on there at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. This 24 would be the position where I was standing.

Mr. BELIN. The arrow which is represented by No. 24, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497. When you first saw him in which direction was he walking?

Mr. BAKER. He was walking east.

Mr. BELIN. Was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. As I first caught that glimpse of him, or as I saw him, really saw him?

Mr. BELIN. As you really saw him.

Mr. BAKER. He was walking away from me with his back toward me.

Mr. DULLES. Can I suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where Lee Oswald was, or the man who turned out to be Lee Oswald, and which direction he was walking in. I think that is quite important.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. We are going to get to that with one more question, if I can, sir. When you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he carrying anything in his hands?

Mr. BAKER. He had nothing at that time.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you carrying anything in either of your hands?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you carrying?

Mr. BAKER. I had my revolver out.

Mr. BELIN. When did you take your revolver out?

Mr. BAKER. As I was starting up the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, turning to Exhibit 497, if you would approximate on Exhibit 497 with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around.

Mr. DULLES. Could we get first where he first saw him.

Representative BOGGS. You have that already.

Mr. DULLES. I don't think you have it on the chart where he was.

Mr. BELIN. This is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. If I can go off the record.

Mr. DULLES. What I wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw.

Mr. BELIN. Just answer the question, if you will. Where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man?

Mr. BAKER. I was just coming up these stairs just around this corner right here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were coming up the stairs at the point on Exhibit 497 where there are the letters "DN" marking down.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you saw something move through a door which is marked as what number on Exhibit 497?

Mr. DULLES. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. BAKER. At this doorway right here, this 23.

Mr. BELIN. At 23.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a couple of questions because I have to go?

Mr. BELIN. Surely.

Representative BOGGS. Were you suspicious of this man?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I wasn't.

Representative BOGGS. And he came up to you, did he say anything to you?

Mr. BAKER. Let me start over. I assumed that I was suspicious of everybody because I had my pistol out.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. BAKER. And as soon as I saw him, I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him.

Representative BOGGS. Right.

Mr. DULLES. He had not seen you up to that point probably?

Mr. BAKER. I don't know whether he had or not.

Representative BOGGS. He came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; and when I hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me.

Representative BOGGS. Right close to you?

Mr. BAKER. And we were right here at this position 24, right here in this doorway.

Representative BOGGS. Right. What did you say to him?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't get anything out of him. Mr. Truly had come up to my side here, and I turned to Mr. Truly and I says, "Do you know this man, does he work here?" And he said yes, and I turned immediately and went on out up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then you continued up the stairway?

Representative BOGGS. Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.

Representative BOGGS. After he had been arrested?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? Did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind?

Mr. BAKER. Evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, I was running, and I ran on over here to this door.

Mr. BELIN. What door number on that?

Mr. BAKER. This would be 23.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And at that position there he was already down here some 20 feet away from me.

Representative BOGGS. When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?

Mr. BAKER. It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Representative BOGGS. Was he calm and collected?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. There is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face.

Mr. BAKER. I had my gun talking to him like this.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever part of the body it was?

Mr. BAKER. About as far from me to you.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about how far?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after Mr. Truly said he worked here?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I never did look back toward him. After he says, "Yes, he works here," I turned immediately and run on up, I halfway turned then when I was talking to Mr. Truly.

Representative BOGGS. That question about time I would like to establish.

How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?

Mr. BAKER. We went back and made two trial runs on that, and----

Mr. BELIN. Was that on Friday, March 20?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and----

Mr. DULLES. Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?

Mr. BAKER. From the last shot.

Mr. BELIN. The first shot.

Mr. DULLES. The first shot?

Mr. BAKER. The first shot.

We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know, it took me a little longer.

Mr. DULLES. I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. When we saw Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. When you saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And that time is how much?

Mr. BAKER. The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

(At this point, Representative Boggs left the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Were we walking or running when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. The first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second time we hurried it up a little bit.

Mr. BELIN. Were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or walk?

Mr. BAKER. From the time I got off the motorcycle we walked the first time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on into the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When we got inside the building did we run or trot or walk?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we did it at kind of a trot, I would say, it wasn't a real fast run, an open run. It was more of a trot, kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took?

Mr. BAKER. I would say it would be the minimum.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. With the stopwatch?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what the route was?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. We walked down the east wall.

Mr. BELIN. We started at that particular corner?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then where did we go?

Mr. BAKER. To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. John Howlett.

Mr. BAKER. John Howlett. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do that, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left-hand side there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER. Then we continued on down the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. To the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long that took?

Mr. BAKER. The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second time?

Mr. BAKER. And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with Mr. Dulles' questions.

Mr. DULLES. Can we go off the record here one moment?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Officer Baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you stopped at the east or the west elevator door?

Mr. BAKER. That would be the west.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at that time I did.

Mr. BELIN. This was while Mr. Truly was calling for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BELIN. Wood or metal, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER. It is wood.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, I didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, I thought it was just one, when I looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up.

Mr. BELIN. Was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any elevator moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Truly pushed the button, I believe you said.

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When he pushed the button did any elevator start moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, I thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one.

Mr. BELIN. It didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you got up to floor number two at the time and you did that with the stairs.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.

Mr. BAKER. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. At some higher floor after that?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as Exhibit 498, I would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BELIN. Is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER. As I came out of that stairway running, Mr. Truly had already gone on around, see, and I don't know, as I come around----

Mr. DULLES. Gone on around and up?

Mr. BAKER. He had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.

Mr. DULLES. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?

Mr. BAKER. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost?

Mr. BAKER. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.

Mr. DULLES. How far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. From that door through which you eventually went through and then saw Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that was approximately 15, 20 feet, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. On Exhibit 499 is this a picture of the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take this picture?

Mr. BAKER. It would be pointed eastward.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I see a coke machine off on the left. When you saw Oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there. All I was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately 20 feet down there from me.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the doorway which on Exhibit 497 is marked as number, what number is that, you are referring to this number 24 here?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door?

Mr. BAKER. At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "B" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? You put the letter "B" on Exhibit 497 when you first saw the movement.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your route to the----

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully.

If Oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he--that you saw him follow?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The reason I say that, this hallway to the right----

Mr. BELIN. By the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this is----

Mr. BAKER. This is a hallway right here.

Mr. BELIN. It is a hallway that has the number 27 on it?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; from what I understand these are offices in there.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here that you can get out and to the other part of the building.

Mr. BELIN. I think Mr. Dulles' question relates to whether or not any person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that point, is that correct?

Mr. DULLES. Yes; that is correct. I am clear as you come up the stairs you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, if you will look on Exhibit 497, the stairway appears to be the same stairway. You see the letter, the arrow, 21, points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the building.

Mr. DULLES. You would cross if you were going up and down, you would cross right there at the same point?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, he would be approximately following the same course from the time he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you had just marked on Exhibit 497 point "B" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse of something, either through a door or through the window in the door marked 23, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you trace your route from point "B" to the doorway 23, if you would, sir.

Mr. BAKER. I ran right straight across here and through this doorway and this is approximately where, I would say 23 here, is approximately where I looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put an arrow at that point on Exhibit 497, and this arrow in pen, I am going to put a "B-1" and at that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number 24 in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the lunchroom, right?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; walking away from me.

Mr. BELIN. Walking away from you. And then where did you move from point "B-1"?

Mr. BAKER. I moved on to this position 24 right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I am going to put--you have put an "X" there, and I am going to put that on Exhibit 497 as an arrow pointing to it, with "B-2". Is this where you stood when you called to the man to come back to you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you move from that time until the man came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. As I called, I remember moving forward a little bit and meeting him right here in this doorway.

Mr. BELIN. As you called you say you remembered moving forward and meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you got there, did you move until the man came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you?

Mr. BAKER. At that particular time I was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt.

Anyway, as I noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 150, would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came--I wouldn't be sure of that. It seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever I saw him in the homicide office there.

Mr. BELIN. What about when you saw him in the School Book Depository Building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know?

Mr. BAKER. I couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but I couldn't say it was that or not.

Mr. DULLES. Lighter brown did you say, I am just asking what you said. I couldn't quite hear.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; all I can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Are you referring to this Exhibit 150 as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it would be similar in color to it--I assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. Now, I was looking at his face and I wasn't really paying any attention. After Mr. Truly said he knew him, so I didn't pay any attention to him, so I just turned and went on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?

Mr. BAKER. He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BAKER. I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.

Mr. DULLES. You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later----

Mr. BAKER. I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker----

Mr. DULLES. I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES. You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?

Mr. BAKER. Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you have any time estimate as to the period of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third floor?

Mr. BAKER. I would say approximately maybe 30 seconds, something like that. It was a real quick interview, you know, and then I left.

Mr. BELIN. All right. As you left, did you notice whether or not the man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. As I left he was still in the position that he was whenever I was facing him.

Mr. BELIN. You then went where?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways.

Mr. BELIN. All right. After going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was--I will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and Mr. Truly said "Let's take the elevator, here it is."

Mr. BELIN. Did you take an east or west elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We took the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight of stairs would have been the east or the west?

Mr. BAKER. The west.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the flight of stairs Mr. Truly said, "Here is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. I was looking around over the building at the time he said, "Let's take the elevator" and I just followed him on around.

Mr. BELIN. You went to an east elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did it appear you rode up the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. It was a short ride. We just, either went one or two floors. I couldn't remember. I was still looking at the floors, you know, as we went up.

Mr. BELIN. As you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or not you passed the elevator on the west side?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the elevator on the west side might have been moving?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the east elevator as far as it would go?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. To get up to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice. You got off the east elevator and then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. We walked up the flight of stairs to the top.

Mr. BELIN. To the top. What did you do when you got to the top?

Mr. BAKER. We went out on the roof.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. DULLES. If you look right behind you, Officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high?

Mr. BAKER. Well, it is about 5 feet. I know I had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. Dulles is referring to the picture of the School Book Depository building on Exhibit 362 and in demonstrating before the Commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you?

Mr. BAKER. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Your hands are 5 feet high? Did you go over just to one roof side or to all sides of the roof?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind this sign here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that on your police radio?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.

Mr. BELIN. As you were getting off your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Senator COOPER. I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?

Mr. BAKER. I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. By "everyone" do you include you, too?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead, if you would, please. You are on the roof now.

Mr. BAKER. Well, as I looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying as you are looking over the south and over the west?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. Then after I looked to see what was going on down there, and then I figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you are pointing to Exhibit 362 to the sign on the top of the School Book Depository Building, the Hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you talk, I wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. Would you tell us what else you did?

Mr. BAKER. As I finished going all around this building here and then I came to this sign and I looked up there to see if I could find anybody hiding up there and I started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and I got on, say, 10 feet up there and I came back down, I seen that nobody would shoot from up there. He wouldn't have no place to hold on.

Mr. BELIN. By that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; this large Hertz sign here.

Mr. BELIN. On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362.

All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN. Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER. As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN. All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Senator COOPER. You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I went on back. Mr. Truly was standing over here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there.

Mr. BELIN. You went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the top floor of the building?

Mr. BAKER. We walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we caught the same elevator back down.

Mr. DULLES. The top floor was the seventh floor, is it not?

Mr. BAKER. Well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor on up.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator that we took up.

Mr. BELIN. When you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor?

Mr. BAKER. Well, there are two flights of stairs there. The one from the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there.

Mr. BELIN. When you took the elevator back did you take it from the top floor down or from the next to the top floor down?

Mr. BAKER. That elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes to the next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it as far as it went?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. We took the same one.

Mr. BELIN. When you went to take that elevator going back down did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. I didn't notice. It would be to my back and I was looking out forward.

Mr. BELIN. It would be to your back from where you came off the stairs going to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Are you talking about when we got on the elevator?

Mr. BELIN. When you got on the elevator to make the return trip?

Mr. BAKER. There wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side instead of just stepping over on the west elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the Commission reporter, has marked as Exhibit 507 which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "Ladder to the roof."

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "Ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, which you said was the east elevator----

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on this top floor?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't notice it.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir?

Mr. BELIN. When you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on that top floor or not?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I still didn't look at the elevator. I was following Mr. Truly and every time I had a chance I would look around over the building.

Mr. BELIN. You would look over the floor itself rather than the other elevator?

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. You then got on the elevator to go on back down?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you take the east elevator down?

Mr. BAKER. As we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and I was still looking over the building.

Mr. BELIN. As the elevator was moving?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; downward.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.

Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER. It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER. I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER. I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, when you left the building had the building been sealed off or not?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door.

Mr. BELIN. The officer at the front door, was he stopping people from coming in and out or what?

Mr. BAKER. I assumed that he was but I, you know, just went on out.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

When you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice whether the west elevator was there?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that you observed in or about the Texas School Book Depository Building at that day that you haven't told us about that you can think of right now?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. BELIN. From the time you went into the building how long did it take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the time you left, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BAKER. I would say that I was in there approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. And you left there right at the time that you left Mr. Truly on the first floor?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than 5 minutes, that could be 25 or 30 or 10 or 15 or what?

Mr. BAKER. This, to my recollection, it seemed like I shouldn't have stayed up there over 10 minutes anyway, if that long.

Mr. BELIN. So you would say somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes?

Mr. BAKER. I just ran around up there looking for something; I didn't find it and then we came on down.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, are there any questions that you have?

Mr. DULLES. I have no more questions. Have you any questions?

Mr. BELIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, I believe you testified that you later saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct?

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was this later on that same day?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as Lee Harvey Oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository Building on that day?

Mr. BAKER. He was the same man.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I can't.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER. Actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on.

Mr. BELIN. He looked as though he did not have the same thing on?

Mr. BAKER. He looked like he did not have the same on.

Senator COOPER. Did you say when you first saw this man walking away from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that you said for him to come toward you.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he turn around?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. DULLES. The officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that time, Officer Baker?

Senator COOPER. He did have a pistol in his hand?

Mr. BAKER. I had the pistol.

Mr. DULLES. Officer Baker had a pistol in his hand.

Senator COOPER. I see. Did he move toward you?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he did.

Senator COOPER. Was there anything about his appearance that was unusual?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir. Whenever I called to him, well he turned around and I had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards me and I walked to meet him, and I met him at that doorway over there and about that time Mr. Truly who had started on up the stairs and then he came back, he found that I wasn't with him, came back, and walked up there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got there together and I turned to Mr. Truly and I asked him, and I said, "Do you know this man? Does he work here?"

And he said, "Yes," and that is whenever I turned and went on up the stairs. At that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the expression or nothing on him.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that he did not seem to be out of breath?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Senator COOPER. He did not show any evidence of any emotion?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?

Mr. BAKER. On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES. Were they white men?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, we have an exhibit here 362 showing the first floor of the School Book Depository Building, and the top part of the exhibit is south. It is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north.

You will notice here the stairway in the front of the building.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And then there is a glass swinging door which I believe is shown there.

Could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was?

Mr. BAKER. Is that the steps on the outside and this is the----

Mr. BELIN. These are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "Main Entrance."

Mr. BAKER. Well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here swinging?

Mr. BAKER. All of this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes, that is all the lobby.

Mr. BAKER. OK. This is the first door that you open to get in.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And this is the lobby.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And then you have another set of glass doors.

Mr. BELIN. There is another door right here, yes.

Mr. BAKER. And on through this one you have a swinging door, a little old counter-type door that swings----

Mr. BELIN. This would be the swinging door which would be to the west of the room marked "Mr. Truly's office" on Exhibit 362?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where would you have been when you were yelling would someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. At this point approximately where the "T" is here.

Mr. BELIN. You would be where the "T" is?

Mr. BAKER. I was standing inside the front doors and I wasn't too far from this door here.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the, what I call the, middle set of doors as you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side of Mr. Truly's office, that little half door there.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you were at the point as marked on Exhibit 362 approximately where the word "T" is.

Mr. BAKER. This lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me like, would--I would say, about 15 feet wide or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. And I had come in there, oh, say, 4 or 5 feet whenever I said, "Where is the stairway or the elevator?"

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could show us on Exhibit 362 the route that you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. I came through the first set of doors, the second set and this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, from the southwest corner here through this swinging door.

Mr. BELIN. That is by Mr. Truly's office?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; to the northwest corner here.

Mr. BELIN. By the west elevator.

Mr. BAKER. West elevator, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, would you estimate?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is pretty close to it.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to the east elevator where Mr. Truly first pushed the button for the elevator?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Mr. Attorney General, do you have any questions?

Mr. CARR. There is just one. There were many people around there at that time, and the rest of the day----

Mr. DULLES. You are talking now about the Depository Building?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. Did you have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some theory they had about what might have happened?

Mr. BAKER. Not until last Friday morning. Chief Lunday, which is my chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this Texas Depository Building, and I had--I have worked traffic outside several times but I never did go inside or talk to any of the employees.

Mr. CARR. I am referring to the people who were out there at the time of the shooting. Did you have a chance during that day to talk with any of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to the investigation here?

Mr. BAKER. The only ones that I talked to would be the solo officers who were around him.

Mr. DULLES. Around whom?

Mr. BAKER. Around the President's car at that time.

Mr. DULLES. What was the nature of those conversations?

Mr. BAKER. Well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came from.

The second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from behind.

Mr. BELIN. Say this again, Officer Baker. When you say some were on the left-hand side?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin----

Mr. BELIN. Is he a motorcycle policeman?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; he is.

Mr. BELIN. On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?

Mr. BAKER. He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he riding at this time?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the left front.

Mr. BELIN. Of what?

Mr. BAKER. There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were four, two on each right side behind.

Mr. BELIN. When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?

Mr. BAKER. We are referring to the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. He was on the front and to the left of the President's car.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you about blood or something?

Mr. BAKER. Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.

Mr. BELIN. Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say?

Mr. BAKER. It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside of the windshield. I don't know about that. But it was all on the right-hand side of his helmet.

Mr. BELIN. Of his helmet?

Mr. BAKER. On his uniform also.

Mr. BELIN. On his uniform.

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And he was riding to the left of the President and you say ahead of the President?

Mr. BAKER. On the left-hand side.

Mr. DULLES. But a little ahead of him?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car.

Mr. DULLES. Any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your question?

Mr. CARR. I was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the laymen around there. There was a lot of talk and theorizing at the time and I was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance to talk to any of them?

Mr. BAKER. At that time I didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. At that time I immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to the Trade Mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at the time I got on there I didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code 3 to Parkland, at the time I got there we stood around the President's car there and kept the crowd back, and that is where I stayed until, I think we left after they loaded the body, we went to Love Field and stayed there for, say, 30 minutes or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your questions?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Mr. CARR. No; thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or about the President's vehicle at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I talked to several of them and all of them had kind of had the same story, you know. It had to come from above and behind.

Mr. BELIN. When did you talk to these officers, like Officer Martin?

Mr. BAKER. That was--I didn't talk to him until we got back to the city hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at 3 o'clock that day, we got off around 4 the same time, they called us all in together.

Mr. BELIN. What other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. BAKER. He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN. The President's car?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES. You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES. You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did this Officer Chaney say anything else about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was?

Mr. BAKER. Not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know where. He said from down there they was kind of going down that hill and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly where it came from.

Mr. BELIN. How did he know it came from behind then?

Mr. BAKER. Because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the President, he said he would see him fall.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by that?

Mr. BAKER. Well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so I assumed he went to the left of him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought what happened?

Mr. BAKER. I talked to several of them but I can't remember exactly, you know, just what their story was.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the only one.

Now, that, like I say, that is the last thing I heard over that radio is "Get some men up on that railroad." Now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. You know----

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

I think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one except the man you later identified as Oswald, and Mr. Truly. There were two people sitting down on the first floor.

Mr. BAKER. As I entered that depository building, I was--people were running toward you, I don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way.

Mr. DULLES. From inside the building?

Mr. BAKER. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.

Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal.

Senator COOPER. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BELIN. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs.

Senator COOPER. I am aware of that.

Mr. BAKER. I was still looking.

Senator COOPER. You went up on the second floor by stairs?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then you got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor.

Senator COOPER. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor?

Mr. BAKER. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. When you looked?

Mr. BAKER. Not from the second floor on up.

Senator COOPER. As you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Those windows, I would say a number of them were open and I tell you, to the best of my recollection, I scanned those windows, but I can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. I looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and I really was looking high more at the roof of it than I was anything, and I really didn't see nothing in the windows.

Senator COOPER. I may be repeating because I missed the first part of his testimony.

Mr. DULLES. Go ahead.

Senator COOPER. But when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot?

Mr. BAKER. As I got that motorcycle straightened up, and I hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, I went very far, but it is possible I went, we figured maybe 80, 60 to 80 feet there, and I looked up, as the shots started, I immediately looked up, you know. I was already facing ahead and I just kind of raised, I sighted up, and while I was looking up, those other two shots came off, and as I come up, I noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but I really didn't see which, there were so many of them I couldn't tell which building they were coming from but I know they were all over.

Say you were facing north like Houston they were in the sky facing north in the street.

Senator COOPER. Which way were the pigeons going?

Mr. BAKER. They were just coming up, you know.

Senator COOPER. I assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I try to be.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush.

Senator COOPER. Did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the School Book Depository?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; that was the only words that I remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until I started parking that motorcycle, and when I came off of it I heard those words.

Senator COOPER. Could you see the railroad yards?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I could see it--this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than----

Mr. BAKER. Nothing except----

Senator COOPER. Crowd?

Mr. BAKER. There were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up.

Senator COOPER. Were there any officers that you saw near the School Book Depository when you went in?

Mr. BAKER. There was an officer working traffic on that corner, and Officer J. W. Williams was----

Mr. DULLES. By that corner you mean the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir. J. W. Williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, I thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as I ran in this building, I found out that I was by myself. I didn't know where anybody went.

Senator COOPER. Did you later see J. W. Williams, Officer Williams?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. He stated that when the motorcade left with the President, and they immediately went code 3 to Parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. And I later saw him out there at Parkland.

Mr. DULLES. You testified, I believe, that you did not yourself see the President's car stop. You just were told it was stopped by several other officers?

Mr. BAKER. Let me say, as I parked that motorcycle, I looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and I saw this man run out into this crowd and back. I don't know who he was but I saw that and I saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not?

Mr. BAKER. Apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the President's car. He was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. I had one of these .30-06, I believe the Springfield type.

Mr. BELIN. Is it a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Automatic or bolt action?

Mr. BAKER. Bolt action.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you owned a rifle, any rifle?

Mr. BAKER. This particular one I have had it approximately 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience to go hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. Every year.

Mr. BELIN. Every year you go deer hunting?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle?

Mr. BAKER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From other rifles?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on November 22 as you heard the first sound?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. BELIN. In what way did it influence them?

Mr. BAKER. To me it was immediately a rifle shot. A lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. But that instant it just, I don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot.

Senator COOPER. How long have you been firing a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Say, from the time I was about 17 years old.

Senator COOPER. Have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; the first one I had was a 30-30 Marlin lever type.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to Lee Oswald?

Mr. BAKER. I saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper.

Senator COOPER. Do you know what kind of rifle it is?

Mr. BAKER. Not offhand. I heard it was some foreign make gun. Most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles.

Senator COOPER. What were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle?

Mr. BAKER. Well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--I have heard that pop from that motorcycle and I have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle?

Mr. BAKER. I would say they was from the same rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon?

Mr. BAKER. It seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. If you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third?

Mr. BAKER. I would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--I don't believe it would be over 3 seconds apart.

Mr. DULLES. Over what?

Mr. BAKER. Three seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. From each shot?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Three seconds from the first to the second and another 3 seconds from the second to the third?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are saying not over 3 seconds?

Mr. BAKER. Not over 3 seconds.

Mr. DULLES. Any further questions?

Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful. (At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and he expressed his regret to you.

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.

As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else you may know.

Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.

Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, please?

Mrs. REID. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.

Mr. BELIN. That is R-e-i-d?

Mrs. REID. R-e-i-d, that is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. REID. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through high school?

Mrs. REID. I completed high school there and I married and went to Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. You mean like sisters or my children?

Mr. BELIN. Well, children.

Mrs. REID. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a grandchild.

Mr. BELIN. You have a grandchild?

Mrs. REID. And a husband, and a family.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. I am a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. For what company?

Mrs. REID. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. REID. I have been 7 years.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?

Mrs. REID. No; I started out in the department on what they call their postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon or so?

Mrs. REID. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mrs. REID. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mrs. REID. Well----

Mr. BELIN. On what floor?

Mrs. REID. On two, the same floor as our office.

Mr. BELIN. That is on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?

Mrs. REID. No; I brought my lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who was there?

Mrs. REID. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.

Mr. BELIN. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And that is where you ate?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second floor also?

Mrs. REID. I do.

Mr. BELIN. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere in that room?

Mrs. REID. Over here.

Mr. BELIN. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?

Mrs. REID. My desk----

Mr. BELIN. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.

Mr. DULLES. That is the desk there, is it?

Mr. BELIN. That is the dumbwaiter.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working?

Mrs. REID. He works for the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building.

Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street running from Houston to Record Street?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of Elm?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?

Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?

Mrs. REID. No; I came back through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't go through the door marked 24?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you turned which way?

Mrs. REID. Turned this way.

Mr. BELIN. You turned to your left and went through the door which is between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go by your desk?

Mrs. REID. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there until I get ready to go out and then pick it up.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you walk?

Mrs. REID. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the closet.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be located on the east side of the building?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the front. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I came and went out this door.

Mr. BELIN. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit 497 as room 200, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mrs. REID. I got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the front of the building, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a freight or passenger?

Mrs. REID. It is a passenger.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high?

Mrs. REID. Fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Came down on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Then you came on the first floor.

Mrs. REID. Went out the front door of our building.

Mr. BELIN. Went out the front door.

Mrs. REID. I stood on the steps for several minutes.

Mrs. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. Shall I continue?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mrs. REID. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell.

Mr. BELIN. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?

Mrs. REID. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had gotten nearer to the street than the steps.

Mr. BELIN. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by?

Mrs. REID. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and was standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository Building that I am pointing to.

Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the building.

Mrs. REID. You have got me turned around.

Mr. BELIN. The parade was coming along Houston.

Mrs. REID. I was standing about along in here, in here.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot marked "B" on Exhibit 361.

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of the School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see?

Mrs. REID. You mean when I was standing there?

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as they were concerned.

I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about that.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see and hear and do after that?

Mrs. REID. Well, when I heard--I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?

Mrs. REID. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.

Mr. BELIN. Which one did you know?

Mrs. REID. James Jarman.

Mr. BELIN. You recognized James Jarman?

Mrs. REID. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at all because I didn't know them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?

Mrs. REID. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know exactly.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which floor it was.

Mrs. REID. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you--did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?

Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?

Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?

Mrs. REID. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?

Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. I went into the office.

Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?

Mrs. REID. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him?

Mrs. REID. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?

Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there?

Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29.

Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange?

Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him.

Mrs. REID. Here.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid.

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.

On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened?

Mrs. REID. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.

Mr. BELIN. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.

Mrs. REID. Yes; it was; yes.

Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?

Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.

Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.

Mrs. REID. Two minutes.

Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?

Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.

Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom----

Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which direction were you going toward the left or right?

Mrs. REID. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to my left.

Mr. BELIN. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was Oswald walking?

Mrs. REID. He was going east.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there?

Mrs. REID. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced up.

Mr. BELIN. He was stepping in as you glanced up?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever--you said, I will put it this way, had you ever seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the time of getting his pay?

Mrs. REID. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, "Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?"

And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never remember seeing him other than to come in to get change.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have occasion to come into that office space?

Mrs. REID. Occasionally they come up to get change.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from getting change or getting paid?

Mrs. REID. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.

Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?

Mrs. REID. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?

Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?

Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?

Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there or would there be more than one?

Mrs. REID. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or----

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we have it on 496.

Mrs. REID. Does it matter?

Mr. BELIN. That is fine.

Mrs. REID. You said the front stairway, too?

Mr. BELIN. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am going to put "R-1".

Mrs. REID. All right.

Mr. BELIN. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the lunchroom to the front stairway?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would there be another way to get there?

Mrs. REID. He can come through the office.

Mr. BELIN. You could come through the office?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking?

Mrs. REID. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. Would any one way be faster than the other or not?

Mrs. REID. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway there.

Mr. BELIN. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would be approximately the same?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a pathway through there without any obstructions for desks?

Mrs. REID. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway.

Mr. BELIN. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. REID. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With an "R" and "X" to it?

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