Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.

In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," "O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to have marked as 374.

And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.

(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was.

Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number----

Mr. McWATTERS. 433.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

Mr. BALL. These are all admitted.

Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there.

Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here.

Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection.

Mr. McWATTERS. O.K.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right----

Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.

Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".

Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar.

Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.

Mr. BALL. That is right in here.

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than----

Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off.

"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.

Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be easier.

Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want----

Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was.

Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"?

Mr. BALL. That is where he got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here.

Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R".

Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and Lamar here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm didn't you, and went west.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P".

Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street.

In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.

Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes.

Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of Dallas.

You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone.

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received in evidence.)

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there.

Mr. BALL. What is the street?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that. That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.

Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.

Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center.

Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific?

Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street right here.

Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. To Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.

Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far?

Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor. This is all Marsalis right here.

Mr. BALL. A straight run south?

Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run.

Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back?

Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here.

Mr. BALL. And go back.

Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see----

Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line.

Is there a bus route on Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm Street there and then he goes the same route through town.

Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down there, he goes straight on.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same. In other words, he comes in there.

Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this Commission Exhibit No. 361?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the corner of----

Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what.

Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here.

Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.

Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had the day of November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.

Representative FORD. Two years consecutively?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and worked it.

Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route.

Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.

Representative FORD. Each day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Each day.

Representative FORD. How many days a week?

Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other words, I work on another, a different bus line.

But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each day.

Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route?

Mr. McWATTERS. A different route.

Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that comes in.

Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words, into Elm Street.

Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.

Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of Murphy Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me.

Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't.

Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on?

Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember?

Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time.

Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now?

Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near Murphy Street.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me.

Senator COOPER. Told you what?

Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the President had been shot.

Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.

Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one.

That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around Griffin there.

Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.

Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.

Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at Marsalis and Brownley.

Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had----

Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.

Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.

Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off.

Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. I believe that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.

Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I couldn't----

Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.

Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do you remember that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it.

Will you read it, please?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original.

Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been identified, and will be identified.

Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, Mr. McWatters?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.

Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know.

Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean.

Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does.

Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked like the man I saw.

Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the President was shot in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.

Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was grinning."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what she did say.

Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know where he got off.

Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that place?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean----

Mr. BALL. The same teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And----

Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that----

Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He has?

Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since.

Mr. BALL. Yes. I see.

Did you give him a transfer that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL. Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he told me he was 17.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works?

Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.

Mr. BALL. Or where he worked?

Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one.

Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This man"--referring to the man who was grinning----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup today."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess, was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men than----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression----

Mr. BALL. That was the fellow?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow.

Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them, I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.

Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup.

Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there, but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the bus.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man behind you?"

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.

Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here.

Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O".

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213."

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus, Munger Bus, is that the same bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card.

Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run as well as the Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.

Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox----

Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a Xerox copy.

Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for identification.)

Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy of it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original.

Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?

Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, Mr. McWatters.

Let's look again at this affidavit.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped at Record and Houston for a pickup.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at Elm around Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I picked up----

Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.

No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup.

Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was the short man that I picked out up there.

Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.

Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was----

Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.

Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question.

Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as of November 22d?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around 12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and proceed westerly on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.

Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time.

Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of the Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.

Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can.

Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.

Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would.

Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley bus continues west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.

Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one short man----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words.

Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.

Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way?

Mr. BALL. No, goes south.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see.

Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.

Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis bus here goes, until he gets----

Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.

Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.

Mr. BALL. South on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston.

Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east.

Mr. BALL. At or about what point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.

Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and Marsalis both buses travel the same route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.

Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route.

Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36 and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.

The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time you reached the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what----

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch, I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.

Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at 12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45?

Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the 45 and 15 minutes usually?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the 15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40. Would you punch--what would you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, I just punch them p.m.

Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after 12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer, November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did every other day?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it.

Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice?

Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and the other coming back at 2.

Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words, when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them at 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as Commission Exhibit No. 379.)

I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.

Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379 and 380 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as 381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.

Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.

(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?

Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.

Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?

Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you punched it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.

Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the FBI.

Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted.

(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School Depository.

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that I would go without having a transfer, in other words.

Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town.

I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.

Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.

Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out when I was held up there in traffic.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's Transfer.

Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare.

Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved?

Did you see that or anything like that?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the Oak Cliff area some place?

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't recall where any of them got off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?

Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may.

Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas all run east and west.

Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned south?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct.

Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly?

Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words, where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on the opposite corner.

Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get down to there.

Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed Lamar Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar.

Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to speak to the man behind her.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words----

Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the 22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't register, I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy Street and got off at Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I hadn't thought of and everything.

Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no.

Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be----

Senator COOPER. Another man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason.

I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that I can recall.

Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day?

Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of the bus.

Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.

Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.

In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know. But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there----

Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the teenager was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not.

Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did.

Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many times as I have punched it----

Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch?

Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. He has got his punch.

Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when----

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I know----

Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is supposed to be another----

Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words, I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have it punched there.

Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. About this matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have talked to me----

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see----

Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything.

Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me?

Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them?

Senator COOPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones, several times since then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as Lee Oswald----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Does Milton Jones look like Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they both, just like I say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face--of course, I know him now, distinctly.

Senator COOPER. But at this time would you identify him as Lee Oswald from the photographs you have seen of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right now?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No. At the time, I couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what I seen him then, I mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, I wouldn't make the statement that I could now.

Senator COOPER. Are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am positive about that. There was----

Senator COOPER. You saw that man get off later?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you got to----

Mr. McWATTERS. Before I got to Lamar Street, between Poydras and Lamar.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can remember is that is where I issued two transfers. That is the best I can remember.

Mr. BALL. To clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was issued to you by the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It is a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch.

Mr. BALL. So your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And he could see McWatters issued this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. When he looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number.

Mr. BALL. And this document here which is 381, you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there.

Mr. BALL. Now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch Lakewood. Now, the p.m., refers to the time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But Lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. If this transfer was issued around the Lamar area or St. Paul--Elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You always punch at the end of your destination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the usual procedure on it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on one side of Lakewood is Beckley, where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is on the opposite of town from----

Mr. BALL. The other side is Capital. Where is that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Capital, well, Capital is in north Dallas, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL. Are those Beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I don't--you mean on the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, I believe they have two divisions, I believe all the buses that work out of the east Dallas division have----

Mr. BALL. We can make this pretty simple. You have on this transfer certain names. When you are running Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, if I was--Marsalis when I left the end of Marsalis out there I would punch my transfer Marsalis, if I left the end of Ramona I would punch them Ramona. In other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Now, Lakewood is at one end of your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood is the other, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So you would punch one of those names?

Mr. McWATTERS. Going that way, while at Marsalis, I would punch the Lakewood when I would leave Marsalis coming toward Lakewood, I would have Lakewood on the front of my bus but I would punch the transfer Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Thank you, gentlemen.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY RESUMED

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley. I have here an exhibit which I will mark 370.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. 370 is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated November 22, 1963. I mark this 370. Do you recognize that?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the original trip sheet.

Mr. BALL. In your handwriting?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; in my handwriting.

Mr. BALL. I will offer this into evidence at this time, and the original trip sheet as Exhibit No. 382.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 370 and 382 were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here a bracelet which is marked 383. Take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; as near as I can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day I carried him, the shiny bracelet I was talking about.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the Greyhound Station on Lamar Street over to 500 North Beckley, had an identification bracelet on him.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. It looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, I couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not.

Mr. BALL. But it looks like one of them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it looks like it.

Mr. BALL. Offer this in evidence.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 383 was withdrawn and a photograph of the bracelet was received as Commission Exhibit No. 383-A.)

Representative FORD. What hand or what arm did he have it on?

Mr. WHALEY. He had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm.

Representative FORD. Was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket?

Mr. WHALEY. His coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out it was short, that is when I saw it.

Representative FORD. Where was his hand when you saw it, if you can recollect it?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, just moving. You know you catch any bright object, why you notice it, that is how I noticed it. He was just moving his hand around. When the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that one. And that is when I saw it, sir.

In the picture, I believe, I don't think he had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning.

Representative FORD. This is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I noticed it; yes, sir. I always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because I make them myself. I made this one.

Representative FORD. In other words, you have a particular interest in them?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, I particularly notice things like that.

Representative FORD. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. A lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. Stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them.

Representative FORD. In other words, this was an unusual band?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed me.

Representative FORD. It is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds of wristbands?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I make watchbands like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall when you told, talked to the Dallas police officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification bracelet on this passenger's wrist?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I told them about the bracelet.

Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers, also?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I don't remember saying it was heavy because I wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it.

Mr. BALL. You described the bracelet?

Mr. WHALEY. I just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet.

Mr. BALL. A moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the man sitting next to you open the door?

Mr. WHALEY. He just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and she said she wanted me to call one. She didn't want that.

Mr. BALL. Did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say anything?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that she could have that one.

Mr. BALL. He said that?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Any other questions of this witness?

Did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them?

Mr. WHALEY. To the best of my ability, I did, sir. I just told them it was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining.

Mr. BALL. Were you shown the shirt later?

Mr. WHALEY. About, it was at least a week later, sir, an FBI man brought the shirt over and showed it to me.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same shirt you saw here?

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is, sir. I am not positive but it had the same kind of silver streak in it.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell the FBI man who brought the shirt to you?

Mr. WHALEY. I told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. Did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell you where he wanted to go?

Mr. WHALEY. That is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he wanted to go he said, "This will do fine," when I pulled over.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something of that sort----

Mr. WHALEY. Well, the way he talked that they were doing him an injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other men he was out there with.

Mr. BALL. Now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything to him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; Detective Sergeant Leavelle, I believe it was, told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there dressed up.

Representative FORD. Did the man you identified have any reaction when they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed at the time you identified him?

Mr. WHALEY. Only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his head, sir. The only one who acted surly. In other words, I told this Commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him out by the way he acted. But he was the man that I carried in my taxicab. I told them when I identified him. I didn't identify him as the man who shot the President. I identified him as the man who rode from the Greyhound to 1500 North Beckley with me.

Representative FORD. Did you point him out with your hand?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I did not. They asked me which number he was standing under and he was standing under No. 2.

Representative FORD. Could he hear you make this identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; he couldn't see me.

Representative FORD. He couldn't see you?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the prisoners from seeing the people who show up.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I have no questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a taxi driver named Darrell Click?

Mr. WHALEY. I may know his face, sir, but not his name.

Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?

Mr. WHALEY. We go mostly by numbers.

Mr. BALL. Okay, no further questions.

The witness is excused.

Representative FORD. May we wait just a moment, please? Would you like to make a statement, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I might say just this: I am here representing Mr. Walter Craig, as I think the Commission understands. I have been here the last two days. In a conversation with Mr. Rankin yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions directly of witnesses, I would make suggestions to Mr. Ball or to one of his associates, and I have been following that practice yesterday and today, after consulting with Mr. Murray who is also here for Mr. Craig, and Mr. Ball and his associates have followed up these suggestions that we have made.

Representative FORD. The suggestions you have made have been transmitted to Mr. Ball or his associates and have been asked of the various witnesses?

Mr. POWELL. That is correct.

Representative FORD. Any other questions?

Thank you very much, Mr. Whaley.

Mr. WHALEY. Thank you, sir. I am glad to be able to be of service.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Friday, March 13, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD, DECLAN P. FORD, AND PETER PAUL GREGORY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, March 13, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Gerald R. Ford, member.

Also present were Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE FORD

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the record.

Mrs. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.

The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others and any and all other matters relating to the assassination.

Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. Mr. Liebeler will conduct the examination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. FORD. My maiden name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. Katrina Evstratova.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. Nova Tchkarsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to the United States, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came straight to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was this soldier's name that you married?

Mrs. FORD. Skotnicki.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were married to him in about 1946?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you subsequently divorced him?

Mrs. FORD. Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and some of the people that he knew.

Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were married to Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on 6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would still be friendly with them, and I know them very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do you?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; I have no reason for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i.

Mrs. FORD. I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the street. He was friendly with that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, if you know about him?

Mrs. FORD. I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with his wife and so I just know a little bit about him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack Ruby's?

Mrs. FORD. That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi knew Ruby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your son told you that?

Mrs. FORD. My young son.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is you son's name?

Mrs. FORD. My son's name is Gary.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old is he?

Mrs. FORD. Twelve.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living with you and Mr. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. He lives with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. Unless something was told by my son or something, by children. I don't think he knew them personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. Skotnicki about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to go through a list of names which I will go through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names or if you know any of the people.

Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Larry Crafard?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't thing so; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mary Bledsoe?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bertha Cheek?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. John Carter.

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mrs. FORD. A. C. Johnson, I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first met the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to meet them, and that was our first contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me when that was, approximately?

Mrs. FORD. I would say it was approximately at the end of August of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us who was at the luncheon?

Mrs. FORD. I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of them before?

Mrs. FORD. I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No; nothing like that was discussed.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. and Mrs. Meller----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Bouhe were present----

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time?

Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends of Marina's friends, girl friends.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in Russia and how they came to be married?

Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe Ted Meller was born in Poland.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way.

Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other workers who worked in Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with her uncle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that other people were paid or more?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a visa, I don't know what else he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember discussing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States?

Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon now you think we ought to know about?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?

Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller?

Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna Meller?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and her children.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough English to start going on her own whatever she could do.

And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long as Marina wished to stay.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe bring her to your place?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller before she came to your place?

Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it is longer than a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at your house?

Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called her up every night, I think he did call, every evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone?

Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about?

Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything.

Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you, October and November of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November.

Representative FORD. Of 1963?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Representative FORD. 1962.

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege of staying at your home at that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house?

Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage?

Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she couldn't stand any longer, she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him?

Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the problem was?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go into explanations of their living together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the Russian friends that Marina had?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might be?

Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not explain and didn't go into explanations of this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been partially responsible for it, what did you think?

Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl.

The CHAIRMAN. She is what?

Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his mother?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he was badly brought up or something like that.

Representative FORD. He was what?

Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her in and then they would argue over that.

Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just couldn't do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward Lee's mother were?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if she liked her or didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina was from Czechoslovakia?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention that?

Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her birthplace and youth in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I believe.

I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just briefly, if you will summarize it for us.

Mrs. FORD. Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't like her, either; they never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at that time.

I think she just could never forgive him for that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me.

Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her.

But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to get away from this man?

Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia.

I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, she felt sorry for him in a way.

Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. "Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?"

She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, "I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it.

Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I mean.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind?

Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers about this, did they ask you about this at any time?

Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the assassination and talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November 27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would be you or somebody else?

Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, of her divorcing Lee Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at the time she stayed with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce?

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could be able to take care of herself other than working in a house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and she didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to.

In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am not going," that is what she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she wasn't going to go back to Russia.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about going back to Russia at that time?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house?

Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about southwest, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort Worth before they came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife?

Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this?

Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time----

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I felt frankly could do anything.

Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the cause of these bruises on her face?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay with me.

Representative FORD. That is what I mean?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she told you Lee Oswald was the cause?

Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?

Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were bruises at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that?

Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first time?

Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those bruises?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with her, too, at that time and that is how she left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays?

Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she said she just couldn't say, no to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he was working at all?

Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself.

Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving?

Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live?

Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where he lives but I don't know the street number.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes concerning politics?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her.

Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of it myself to discuss politics with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k.

Do you remember anything about that particular conversation?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you know, behind his back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are acting that way.

The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I got, the father couldn't pay for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have done that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views before other people or make fun of him?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this is what she was telling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything?

Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't already asked you?

Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'?

Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object to it. So she brought them over with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife?

Mrs. FORD. And his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson?

Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina spoke English at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party afterward?

Mrs. FORD. I might have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. Jackson and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the party that night?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of Japanese descent but I don't remember her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did comment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked Marina and she said he did not do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. During the party?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about Oswald's experiences in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they left before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember?

Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on that party on anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held?

Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December.

Mr. LIEBELER. What year?

Mrs. FORD. 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after that?

Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day?

Mrs. FORD. The next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December.

Was Mr. Bouhe----

Mrs. FORD. No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, 1 don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that there was a party or open house at Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th?

Mrs. FORD. If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a party at Meller's house?

Mrs. FORD. There was a party or luncheon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go?

Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or 4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his experiences----

Mrs. FORD. No; I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?

Mrs. FORD. I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her problem.

Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was that at a previous time?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the Oswalds after that?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with any of your friends in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him?

Mrs. FORD. We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might be an agent of any government?

Mrs. FORD. No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my feeling on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any conversations on that?

Mrs. FORD. No. There were not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that Oswald was a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember particularly that he would say that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say, "We all thought that"?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just said the word before.

The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?

Mrs. FORD. Unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. Unstable.

Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford?

Mrs. FORD. In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic structures of different governments, and things that he would come to the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just rather too young for that.

I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. You based this----

Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I just didn't get to talk to anyone.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was?

Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it.

Representative FORD. Did she speak English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris.

Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that group?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case?

Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would be unstable.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia where that is where we actually meet each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth?

Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New Year's sometimes we celebrate those.

Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately 14 years but I don't know him well.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and trying to help them.

Was there any discussion about that among your friends?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else would do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts?

Mrs. FORD. Shorts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up.

Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia and had access to weapons?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing ducks or something of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect.

I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying that his Russian was imperfect.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that time, did she speak English at that time?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I don't think she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and was giving her lessons.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have completed it by the next time in writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that?

Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned to speak but he said she was a good student.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's part?

Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English?

Mrs. FORD. Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything. I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean English.

Mrs. FORD. That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for himself not to forget it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. After this party on the 28th of December, what was your next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is why she got into a lot of problems and troubles.

I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to call me or to let me--that I would like to talk with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. I think that was either the first part of December, I think it must have been at least a week after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. In early December?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after that?

Mrs. FORD. Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that I called, and let her know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters, they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina called Mrs. Paine or I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her, that she was the reason she was calling me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had not heard from Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her right soon after, after I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way?

Mrs. FORD. No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away is what she said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Marina said?

Mrs. FORD. That is what she said. I told her that was the big difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it for the children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after that first--was there anything else you discussed in that telephone conversation?

Mrs. FORD. No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the offer she had.

Mr. LIEBELER. After that first telephone conversation, what was the next contact you had with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs. Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union.

Mr. LIEBELER. I did talk to you yesterday afternoon.

Mrs. FORD. I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, if you say it I will remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story first.

How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did Mrs. Paine bring it up?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt, and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written in English, is that correct?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she asked you to translate into Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter from the Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. FORD. No; from Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. And so you translated that into Russian?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, I translated it into Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who discussed that subject with you.

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or anybody else?

Mrs. FORD. We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so we don't find out.

So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, what is this about going with them, what did Mrs. Paine ask you?

Mrs. FORD. She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from the Union would go there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you declined to go with them?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you about this subject?

Mrs. FORD. No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out if she was in prison.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that man's name?

Mrs. FORD. No; if you mention it I would know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Gregg Olds?

Mrs. FORD. That is right; yes, that is his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you?

Mrs. FORD. He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think. I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him.

He said, "Thank you," and he left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was?

Mrs. FORD. No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card.

No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or afterward, I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if it was before or after Marina testified before this Commission?

Mrs. FORD. That was before the Warren Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was before the Warren Commission?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this first time?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write, who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to visit?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me, this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out to dinner and, of course, I didn't expect that there would be a whole company with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come out?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?

Mrs. FORD. It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks before the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Late in January sometime?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time that Marina was there did you have any discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything relating to that?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before this Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No, not during that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come back to your house again before she came to testify before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to translate that letter and I did translate it.

And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I translated.

He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did before." And they did and they picked up the letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any copy of that letter?

Mrs. FORD. I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I am not positive. I know I put it in a desk.

Representative FORD. This was a letter from whom to whom?

Mrs. FORD. From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally.

Representative FORD. To Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of Texas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have another death on her conscience?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is no war.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on her conscience"?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this was, she would feel very badly if that would happen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for these things?

Mrs. FORD. What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what way?

Mr. LIEBELER. That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths herself?

Mrs. FORD. No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before the Commission or about the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't talk about her testimony?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't, not at all she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know, I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Martin say anything about it?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you saw Marina?

Mrs. FORD. After she came back from Washington.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come to your house then?

Mrs. FORD. No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. To Robert Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. To Robert Oswald's house; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live with you in your house?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you wanted to," and she said she would love to do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the testimony.

She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those are the words she made.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was referring to a statement she had written.

Mrs. FORD. She had written, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she show it to you?

Mrs. FORD. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr. Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. FORD. No; I hadn't learned about that until later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss it with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She didn't want it to.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she did talk to you about it?

Mrs. FORD. She talked to me because I had to translate it to her, the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon affair at a time when the FBI was not present?

Mrs. FORD. I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very much about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom?

Mrs. FORD. No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she could lock anybody in the bathroom?

Mrs. FORD. Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that Marina told you about this Nixon affair that you can remember now?

Did she tell you when it happened?

Mrs. FORD. No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the month.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she told me something about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mrs. FORD. She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any note that he had written in connection with the attack on General Walker?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred before or after the Nixon incident?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know. She never said it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you during this period that she had been living in your house any of the details of the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never brought the subject up herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee Oswald was not?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Guilty of this?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't want--he didn't feel like he would return or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her own conclusion is that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason?

Mrs. FORD. No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist, speaking about General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. No; she never discussed that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. FORD. Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs. Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often. Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about Marina, and she don't like that.

I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time.

So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told her Mrs. Paine was coming?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not now anyway, she said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they talked.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did they say to each other?

Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard.

Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee Oswald took?

Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at your place?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews?

Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's office at one time?

Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed Marina?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name?

Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI has been asking her?

Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip?

Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he didn't, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had to go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when Oswald was in Cuba.

Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I cannot explain it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave her and go to Cuba and abandon her.

Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?

Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she was talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?

Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee killed him.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that Lee Oswald may have engaged in?

Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else?

Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at Love Field?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to Russia?

You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.

But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of?

Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out?

Mrs. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this?

Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it.

The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters?

Mrs. FORD. No; no letters.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do you remember?

Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.

Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?

Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?

Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have relating to the assassination?

Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?

Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was writing for----

Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally?

Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting.

Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle?

Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice?

Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee would never go to a place like that, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please.

Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her schooling in Russia?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist.

Representative FORD. In other words, she went to the regular----

Mrs. FORD. School, yes.

Representative FORD. Primary school?

Mrs. FORD. That is right.

Representative FORD. Following that she went on to a secondary school.

Mrs. FORD. You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist.

Representative FORD. But those were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended?

Mrs. FORD. I think so, that is right.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the Komsomol.

Mrs. FORD. She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something.

Representative FORD. Did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out?

Mrs. FORD. She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the reason, I really don't remember.

Representative FORD. Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the Komsomol, so far as you know?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. She couldn't join it.

Representative FORD. Why couldn't she join it?

Mrs. FORD. Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the Party.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. FORD. No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory.

Representative FORD. You don't recall anything, any details?

Mrs. FORD. I don't recall any details of the school.

Representative FORD. You don't recall any of the details of the kind of school?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember.

Representative FORD. At the time that Marina and June stayed with you and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit her at your home?

Mrs. FORD. No. He did not.

Representative FORD. He called her?

Mrs. FORD. He called on the telephone.

Representative FORD. Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion?

Mrs. FORD. On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, I didn't hear you.

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina would go from my house, she came to visit her.

Representative FORD. The individual who kept Marina after she left you?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And his name was what?

Mrs. FORD. Her name.

Representative FORD. What is the name?

Mrs. FORD. Anna Ray.

Representative FORD. That is the only person who visited Marina during this period?

Mrs. FORD. At my house; yes.

Representative FORD. I would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes.

Representative FORD. You were in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. With Marina. Who else was there?

Mrs. FORD. And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it.

Representative FORD. In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I.

Representative FORD. Just the three of you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; in one of the rooms in his office.

Representative FORD. And Mr. McKenzie said what?

Mrs. FORD. Oh, I think that maybe--frankly, I don't know what he was telling her.

Representative FORD. Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair?

Mrs. FORD. I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about.

Representative FORD. This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and you were discussing matters----

Mrs. FORD. That was about General Walker.

I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her.

Representative FORD. One gun used where?

Mrs. FORD. For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what I had----

Representative FORD. I think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the Walker affair.

Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.

Representative FORD. How did the Nixon affair come up?

Mrs. FORD. I just can't recollect how.

Representative FORD. Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina raise it?

Mrs. FORD. How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and I talked him out of it."

Representative FORD. You say this conversation took place in the car?

Mrs. FORD. Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I don't know how it got started, I have forgotten.

Representative FORD. When you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at this time.

Representative FORD. Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon----

Mrs. FORD. She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars.

Representative FORD. Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the Commission?

Mrs. FORD. Well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her.

But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the President.

So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me.

Representative FORD. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you?

Mrs. FORD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband?

Mrs. FORD. No. I had to apply for it.

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you naturalized?

Mrs. FORD. In Dallas, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. In the Federal court?

Mrs. FORD. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that about?

Mrs. FORD. I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct time, I got it in 1952.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1952?

Mrs. FORD. This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your Life".

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Representative FORD. I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about Marina mentioning two guns.

Mrs. FORD. She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I don't know, it was not clear to me.

Representative FORD. When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. FORD. That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee.

Representative FORD. Marina said that?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet.

Representative FORD. When did Marina say Lee said that?

Mrs. FORD. Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General.

Representative FORD. After he had attempted to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. FORD. That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong.

It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet.

Representative FORD. Lee said that to Marina?

Mrs. FORD. To Marina, that is right.

Representative FORD. Right after the incident?

Mrs. FORD. Right after the incident, that is correct.

Representative FORD. And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that?

Mrs. FORD. I don't know.

Representative FORD. You don't know?

Mrs. FORD. But I think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know how this came out.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful.

Mrs. FORD. I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to me.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF DECLAN P. FORD

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ford, you were given a copy of this statement were you?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As to the purpose so you understand what we are doing here today?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please rise. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FORD. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated please and Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, sir?

Mr. FORD. Declan P. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. FORD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. FORD. I am a consulting geologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you independently employed?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I am self-employed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us a brief statement of your educational background?

Mr. FORD. I was graduated from the University of California at Los Angeles in 1948, with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Geology, and was first employed by Tidewater Associated Oil Co. as a geologist, later with the Continental Oil Co. as a geologist, and then later with DeGollyer McNaughton, a consulting firm in Dallas, Tex., until 1962, October. I went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. All this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields both in the United States and foreign countries.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been employed in and about the Fort Worth and Dallas area ever since you graduated from college?

Mr. FORD. No; I have only been in the Dallas area since January 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is Katherine Ford?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married?

Mr. FORD. We were married July 1960. July 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at any time prior to that?

Mr. FORD. No; I was not.

The CHAIRMAN. '62, did you say?

Mr. FORD. 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mr. FORD. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Directly or indirectly?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. John M. Grizzaffi?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I knew him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of Jack Ruby's?

Mr. FORD. I don't know. I have heard that he knows Jack Ruby, I don't know how well he knows him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi had any contact with the Oswalds or knew them?

Mr. FORD. None that I knew of.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure of the exact date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting?

Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?

Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if anybody else. It seems to me there was somebody else there but I can't remember who it was. Someone else may have come in later or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention George Bouhe as being there?

Mr. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned him?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to that luncheon?

Mr. FORD. Mrs. Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of the Oswalds prior to that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How?

Mr. FORD. I first heard of them, I think, from either George Bouhe or maybe from Max Clark who lives in Fort Worth but I think it was George Bouhe. He had mentioned the name of Lee Oswald and briefly described his history, his story of his going to Russia, attempting to give up his American citizenship, and later returning from Russia with a Russian wife and child, and living in Fort Worth, and we were, my wife is Russian and we were interested in meeting her. George Bouhe, I think, at the time was attempting to help Lee Oswald find employment.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to Mrs. Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes; Marina Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at the Mellers to meet Lee and Marina Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation with the Oswalds at that time?

Mr. FORD. There was, most of the conversation was in Russian which I don't understand. I had very little conversation with Lee himself because he spoke Russian most of the time that afternoon and Marina didn't speak any English at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations in English with Oswald about living conditions in Russia, about his expenses in Russia?

Mr. FORD. A little bit. He showed me pictures of people that he had worked with in Russia. I believe they were on a picnic together, a group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in Minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in Russia, I guess the conditions under which he had lived in Russia, the small room they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made there. I don't remember how much it was though.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a job he had?

Mr. FORD. No, he didn't. I think George Bouhe told me he had been a sheet metal worker or something similar to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Minsk?

Mr. FORD. In Minsk, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid?

Mr. FORD. No; he said nothing about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way any source of income other than from his job?

Mr. FORD. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time did he do that?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anything like that?

Mr. FORD. No; I have heard people speak of it but I have never heard him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have heard people speak of it when, since the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any impressions of Oswald at this first meeting?

Mr. FORD. I had an impression that he was not the type of person I could make friends with very easily. He didn't impress me as being friendly to me as a person. He was kind of closed up within himself. And it seemed to me he preferred to speak in Russian rather than in English. He wanted to practice speaking Russian with the Russian speaking people rather than talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time?

Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that?

Mr. FORD. Not directly with me. My wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accept that explanation?

Mr. FORD. I didn't--well, really, I didn't accept it. It just didn't make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other to me. I frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a doorknob.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything that happened at this first luncheon that impressed you about Oswald or his attitude, in any way that you think the Commission should know about?

Mr. FORD. Very little. Except he seemed reserved, and I would call excessively polite, and the fact I don't think he made any effort to make friends with the other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you had any contact with Oswald?

Mr. FORD. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from him.

I had been out of town and when I came home she was invited to stay over at Mr. Ray's house and I took her over there, I think it was on a Friday evening.

Lee Oswald called and wanted to talk to Marina and wanted then to come out and see her. Mr. Ray told him if he would get on the bus and come to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and I went with Mr. Ray to pick up Lee Oswald at the bus stop.

We went back to Mr. Ray's home, and had a short conversation with Lee Oswald but he said he wanted to talk to Marina, and he and Marina went into another room. I don't know exactly how long it was but we sat down and had one or two drinks, and then Lee came back in and said he and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go home with him that evening. Mr. Ray offered to drive them back to their place in Oak Cliff, and then I went home.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were out of town throughout the entire time that Marina stayed with your wife?

Mr. FORD. Except for the last night. She stayed there one more night after I came home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression on Oswald that evening different from the one that you originally had of him?

Mr. FORD. Only it confirmed my original thought. I remember one instance. Frank asked him where he was working and he would never identify the place he was working. He would hedge, I forget his exact words, but he mentioned that he was working, I think in a printing shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and Mr. Ray asked him the name of the place, I think, twice, and he avoided answering. He would just start talking about something completely different.

In other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no independent knowledge of where he was working at that time?

Mr. FORD. I didn't know the name. I had heard he was employed in this shop that I think was a printing and photographic developing shop.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with his getting that job?

Mr. FORD. No, I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your friend did?

Mr. FORD. I am not sure. I think either George Bouhe or maybe Theo Meller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but I am not sure about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with either Mr. Meller or Mr. Bouhe about this?

Mr. FORD. I have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this night when Lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they had anything to do with his getting this job?

Mr. FORD. I don't specifically remember that they said so. I either assumed this or something they said led me to believe it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the Oswalds had in their marriage?

Let's expand the question. Think about that, and also think about any conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and what was the trouble between the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between Marina and Lee Oswald.

The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to work, something to that effect.

I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it was because he had beat her up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had done that or what the cause of the trouble was?

Mr. FORD. Not at the time. My wife didn't tell me anything about that. Again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but I don't know if Marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it after the assassination, I don't know the exact time that these details were brought out.

My wife did mention that perhaps Marina antagonized him by arguing with him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't recall whether that was developed during or at the time or later on?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember whether she told me that before the assassination or not. I know we have talked about it since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. The next contact was after Christmas 1962. Between Christmas and New Year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, George De Mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring Lee and Marina to the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked me if it was all right to bring them along and I said sure. It was prior to December 28.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald come with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. FORD. Yes, he came with De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know anything about the relations between Oswald and the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. FORD. I knew they were friends, no more than that. How often they saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. FORD. I guess George De Mohrenschildt is between 50 and 55 years old.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be close to Lee Oswald who was around 21 or 22 at that particular time?

Mr. FORD. Not in the particular case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. FORD. Well, George De Mohrenschildt has a reputation for being a left-wing enthusiast or something, I don't mean a member of the Communist Party, but he is, I have heard other people say he has expounded the ideals of Marxism and since Lee Oswald was supposedly a Marxist or a Communist they would agree on their political views.

Again, I have never heard George De Mohrenschildt expound on any of these ideas. I have met him socially several times and he is very pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on what is the ideal political system, I can't think of anything else they would have in common.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's political views are hearsay?

Mr. FORD. All of it is hearsay.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn about Oswald's political views?

Mr. FORD. Also hearsay, from other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us who told you about it?

Mr. FORD. I can't remember anybody, any specific statement from anybody, but I have discussed it with people like both my wife and George Bouhe and I don't remember if I discussed it with the Mellers or not but it seems I have heard this from several different people about just about everybody who knew them, the Oswalds, this was one of the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his reputation for being a Communist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have that reputation in the community?

Mr. FORD. Yes, I think he had that reputation of either--not being a member, say, of the Communist Party, but his political ideas were either Marxist or Communist or something he had derived from reading Karl Marx, I suppose.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism or antagonism of any sort toward the Government of the United States?

Mr. FORD. The only occasion I know of was the first time I met him, he did blame the U.S. Embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and his wife from Russia.

He did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that his daughter would have been born in the United States rather than Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything more about that, do you remember any more in detail?

Mr. FORD. Not that I heard of or can remember.

Representative FORD. Did he think the birth of his daughter in Russia rather than in the United States was something important, did it appear that way?

Mr. FORD. I don't know how important he thought it was. It actually started as a joke. We also had a baby born shortly before that and I said, "Pretty little Russian girl" or something like that, and he made a statement, "She is just as much a Texan as your son," and then went on to explain that if the U.S. Embassy had acted more quickly that he and Marina could have left Russia and that June, the daughter, would have been born in the United States.

I don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense of humor?

Mr. FORD. None whatsoever.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude the Russian authorities took when he wanted to come back to the United States and bring his wife back with him?

Mr. FORD. He never said anything to me. I think he may have while he was talking Russian with these other people. He may have mentioned the fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from the Russian authorities, the delay came from the American authorities, but I don't specifically know whether it did. He said these things, again it would be hearsay, again I would have heard it from my wife or somebody else who could speak Russian who had either discussed it with him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Oswald or hear of Oswald making any remarks that would indicate a hostility toward President Kennedy?

Mr. FORD. No; never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally?

Mr. FORD. Never heard that either, until after the assassination. I saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to Governor Connally when Governor Connally was Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would limit my question to before the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Before the assassination, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear anything about his military career prior to the assassination?

Mr. FORD. No; in fact I had assumed prior to the assassination that he had had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any discussions with him about that or heard anybody discussing it?

Mr. FORD. He said something the first time I met him, I can't specifically remember what it was, but I got the impression that, at that time that he had been a Marine Corps guard at the U.S. Embassy in Russia and I can't remember whether he said this or somebody else mentioned it or whether I just assumed it on my own.

So I know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to Russia. I later learned he had gone on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific discussion with him about this question?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald was living during this period that his wife was separated from him and living with you and Mrs. Meller?

Mr. FORD. I knew he had an apartment in this Oak Cliff section of Dallas. I don't remember the exact address. I don't know whether he stayed there while Marina was in our house or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time that he took the apartment in Oak Cliff, did you?

Mr. FORD. Well, I think he lived in Fort Worth. I am not absolutely sure. I believe this apartment in Oak Cliff was the first place he lived in Dallas, but I am not absolutely sure about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had never talked to him about it?

Mr. FORD. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the apartment?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, had we gotten to the Christmas party?

Mr. FORD. You asked me about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us as best as you can recall the events of that period. I think you said there was a party at your house on the 28th of December.

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period.

Mr. FORD. Well, there were, but I don't remember the specific dates that they were. I think they were after the party at our house. There was a party at George Bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. I think it was a few days after that, right in the period of New Year's Eve, and I went to several celebrations.

I would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember going to George Bouhe's apartment?

Mr. FORD. Yes; I remember going there but I don't remember the exact date that it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald at that meeting?

Mr. FORD. No; he was not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Oswald at that time?

Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other parties that you attended during that period?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any formal parties. I stopped and had drinks with a lot of people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Specifically, was there a get-together at your home the night after the party that you had on the 28th of December?

Mr. FORD. Not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show up and we started another party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there?

Mr. FORD. Mr. and Mrs. Sullivan, friends of ours from New Orleans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris who were from Georgetown, Tex., and another Mr. and Mrs. Ray, not the ones who live in Dallas, but these live in Paris, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. FORD. Thomas Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas Ray. And yourself and your wife?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else?

Mr. FORD. Right now I can't remember anybody else who came in. It was not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started having a party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any discussion of Oswald at that time?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at any time having any discussion with any of your Russian friends on the question of whether or not Oswald was a Russian agent?

Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORD. No; I don't remember prior to the assassination. There may have been some but I don't remember any.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the party at your home on the 28th of December, did you have any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. FORD. Said "hello, how are you," to he and Marina, and after that, I can't remember Oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a Japanese girl, Yaeko, I forget her last name; my wife will remember.

As nearly as I can remember she was the only person in the whole party that he ever bothered to talk to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald was drinking that evening?

Mr. FORD. I fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of liqueur. As far as I remember he never touched it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald smoking?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any discussion about Oswald after he left that evening?

Mr. FORD. No; after he left that evening, I don't recall any discussion of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with De Mohrenschildt about Oswald?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any specific conversations with George De Mohrenschildt. I may have.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your impression of Oswald at this time as far as his relations with the other members of the Russian community were concerned, and generally?

Mr. FORD. My impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give either he or his wife. I might say, I know, I have heard other Russian people there, for example, would take Marina to a grocery store and buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the hospital and she took Marina and the baby to the hospital for some medical treatment for it, and I had the impression that Lee Oswald resented this.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gained that impression from conversations that you had?

Mr. FORD. From conversations with other people, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any----

Mr. FORD. I was also going to say----

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon me.

Mr. FORD. I think during the period of 1962 that George Bouhe, for example, thought it would be helpful for Marina to learn English and he tried to encourage her to learn English and I had heard later that Lee Oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn English.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that?

Mr. FORD. That was back in 1962. I can't remember the specific time, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Harris at the party at your place on the 28th of December?

Mr. FORD. Oh, yes; I had conversations with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear of an incident where Mrs. Harris was trying to teach English to Marina at the party and certain American customs and Oswald objected to it?

Mr. FORD. I didn't observe it. She may have tried to teach her some American customs. I don't remember hearing Oswald say anything about it, Lee Oswald say anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Harris say anything about it to you?

Mr. FORD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred at all?

Mr. FORD. No. It seems to me I have heard somebody else mention this but I did not see it or hear anything myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after the party on the 28th of December that was held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either one of the Oswalds?

Mr. FORD. Well, I heard a few times or my wife had heard something about Marina living in Irving, but never actually saw either one of them until after the assassination. Then the first contact we had with Marina was, I believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come by, and let her know she still had friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody suggest to you shortly after the assassination that Marina should come and live with you?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in connection with any suggestion that Marina should come and live with you?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember ever expressing it. If somebody had mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination I probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. But I don't remember saying anything to anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina moved into your home after the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Yes; but this was in February of this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you express any hesitancy at that time?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall expressing any immediately after the assassination or before?

Mr. FORD. No. I don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. I mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, I don't recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live at my house or anybody else's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any conversations with Mr. Jim Martin on that subject?

Mr. FORD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now prior to the time that Marina came to live in your home, your wife has testified she talked to Marina on the telephone several times and that Marina came to visit on two or three occasions, two occasions, I believe, at your home.

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife about what Marina had said during your wife's visits with Marina?

Mr. FORD. When she came to visit us in our home?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. FORD. I talked to her about what she had talked to Marina, and I couldn't carry on much of a conversation with Marina myself because she didn't speak much English but I would ask my wife, and my wife would tell me what she had said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any discussion about Marina's testimony before this Commission, either before she went to Washington or after she came back?

Mr. FORD. No; not--my wife never told me before she came to Washington to testify before the Commission. After she came back, I did overhear some conversation between Marina, my wife, and Mr. William M. McKenzie regarding the testimony given to the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what that was to the best of your recollection?

Let me ask you this: Where did this occur?

Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office, it may have been either in his office or my home but I think it was in his office, and I believe the FBI had been questioning her this afternoon, I am not sure of the date, and I came back later to pick up my wife and Marina and in my presence Mr. McKenzie asked my wife to ask Marina in Russian if she had told the Commission this Nixon story. I don't know the details of the story, but something regarding the threat to Mr. Nixon.

And I think Marina, again through my wife, told Mr. McKenzie that she had not mentioned this to the Commission. But that she had mentioned it to the FBI, and she had mentioned it, I believe to the FBI prior to the Commission hearing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. FORD. Well, I was standing there while Mr. McKenzie was talking to Marina using my wife as a translator.

Representative FORD. Was this in your home, did you say?

Mr. FORD. I think it was in Mr. McKenzie's office; it might have been in my home. Several times I have overheard conversation either in Mr. McKenzie's office or at my home.

Representative FORD. It could have been in either?

Mr. FORD. It could have been either, but it seems to me it was at his office. I think as Marina said, she had not said anything to the Commission about this, and then I think Mr. McKenzie asked her why not, and she said well she hadn't thought of it or nobody asked her; something to that effect.

I think he was trying to establish whether or not she had purposely withheld information from the Commission and she said no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald make any remark to the effect when she was before the Commission she just answered questions and did not volunteer anything?

Mr. FORD. I never heard her say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever translate that, a remark like that, so that you heard it when it was translated?

Mr. FORD. No; I never heard anybody translate for Marina and say that; no.

In my presence, I never heard her say that and have it translated by anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else that she had said that?

Mr. FORD. Not until yesterday when I was talking about it with you, that I can remember anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. And yesterday when we talked about it, I asked you the question, had anybody said that, isn't that right?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you obtain any information concerning the Nixon, any detailed information concerning the Nixon affair as a result of detailed conversations with your wife after she had had conversations with Marina? I am assuming Marina would speak in Russian to your wife. Did your wife ever tell you what Marina had ever said to her about the Nixon affair?

Mr. FORD. A little bit, not all the details. But something to the effect that Lee Oswald was threatening, I don't know whether to shoot Nixon, and in some way she had locked him in a bathroom and kept him there, I think all day. He had calmed down or cooled off and wasn't going to do anything. Just how she managed to do this, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the question with your wife as to how?

Mr. FORD. No; not--again, I never discussed it until yesterday, last night. I was talking to her and wondered how the devil she managed to lock him in the bathroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed that with your wife last night as a result of a similar question that I asked you yesterday afternoon when we were reviewing the testimony?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn anything relating to the Walker affair as a result of conversations with your wife?

Mr. FORD. Well, I had read about it in the newspapers; I had read stories that Lee Oswald had told Marina that he had taken a shot at General Walker and my wife did tell me later on she asked Marina if this were true and I think Marina said this was true, that Lee Oswald had told Marina he was the one who had taken a shot at General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the extent of your conversations about the Walker incident?

Mr. FORD. No; she mentioned something else that my wife told me about. That after Lee had taken a shot at General Walker, he had hidden the gun somewhere and went back the next day or a few days later and recovered the gun. And that Lee was reading the reports in the newspaper and made some statement, "Well, how stupid can the police be," something to this effect. In other words, expressing the idea that the police were unable to find out what happened in the Walker incident. And then also Marina had said at one time, I believe the day after the shooting of Walker or attempted shooting of Walker, George De Mohrenschildt had come into the house and made some statement to them regarding it. I can't remember the exact words but it was referring to it, Walker, somebody shooting at General Walker, and asking Lee how he could miss and she was surprised that De Mohrenschildt knew about it and Marina thought Lee had told George De Mohrenschildt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn how George De Mohrenschildt had learned about it?

Mr. FORD. No; I imagine he was surprised that Lee had done the shooting and to him it would have been a good joke.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about the Walker incident that you and your wife may have talked about?

Mr. FORD. Yes; we have discussed it some after, I believe, Marina came to stay with us, and I expressed the doubt that Lee Oswald was the one who took a shot at Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for expressing that doubt?

Mr. FORD. The only basis for it was that there was a story in one of the newspapers that they could not identify the bullet taken out of the wood in Walker's home as having come from a gun that Lee Oswald owned, it was too badly destroyed and they couldn't be sure it was the gun, the same gun, that shot the bullets at President Kennedy and Governor Connally.

Mr. LIEBELER. So on the basis of that newspaper story you expressed doubts as to whether Oswald was actually involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. FORD. Well, I expressed the doubt. It was possible that he really wasn't the one who took a shot at General Walker but just claimed he did and this to me would not be surprising.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. FORD. Well, I think, my opinion of Lee Oswald is that he would do anything to gain attention for himself, draw attention to himself, make not necessarily a hero out of himself but just a well-known person. He wanted attention. He wanted to be a big shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think in an attempt to do that he might claim he had been the one who shot at Walker where, in fact, he was not the one at all?

Mr. FORD. It is possible, I think it is possible.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your wife in which your wife told you anything that Marina said about the details of the assassination, about Lee's coming home to Irving and his leaving for Dallas the next morning?

Mr. FORD. Well, we talked about it; I don't recall all the details of what my wife told me, whether they were my wife's opinions or things she had heard directly from Marina.

Apparently Marina was surprised that he would come home in the middle of the week rather than on weekends or come to visit her, and I gathered that Marina had thought of these things after the assassination, as she tried to figure things out. Well this increased her belief that Lee Oswald was the man who assassinated the President, because he did so many strange things that week, I mean that day before, not the week, the day before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. To your knowledge, has Marina expressed any feeling about Oswald's guilt while she lived with you or while you were acquainted with her after the assassination, other than the fact he was guilty?

Mr. FORD. No; so far as I know she just accepts the fact he was guilty. He was the man who shot the President. And she believes this is true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with Robert Oswald?

Mr. FORD. No, not specifically, I didn't. I never asked Robert Oswald if he believed that his brother shot the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he did not believe that?

Mr. FORD. Not directly. The only thing that might have indicated it was when Life published a picture of Lee Oswald on the front cover and I read a newspaper article which stated that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was intending to sue Life Magazine and I wondered why, was the picture faked, and Robert Oswald said no it was a true picture of Lee Oswald but the title of the picture, that is what he was upset about, and I think the title was Lee Oswald holding the gun he either used to shoot or used to kill the President, and I didn't pursue the subject further with him.

I don't know specifically what he was upset about, if he thought his brother did shoot the President. There was nothing wrong with the statement except he may not have liked it in print.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only statement Robert Oswald made to you about the subject.

Mr. FORD. But he never said he didn't believe his brother did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other reasons for thinking that Oswald is the kind of person who would claim to do something that he hadn't done just to get attention drawn to him?

Mr. FORD. Well, yes; I think he was erratic enough in his behavior throughout his whole life to indicate that. Of course, I have read a lot about his life since the assassination, so it is not all opinion I formed prior to the assassination.

It is hard for me to distinguish which things I thought before the assassination from those I have thought about since the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that respect let me ask you this question: Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the assassination?

Mr. FORD. Yes, I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think on the basis of your knowledge of him before the assassination that he would have been capable of such a thing?

Mr. FORD. No; I wouldn't have thought so prior to the assassination and when I first heard he was picked up, I first thought, well, as I said to my wife, "This nut has gone down and got himself mixed up just to get some publicity."

Representative FORD. You said that to your wife?

Mr. FORD. Yes; that was my first opinion. When I heard that Lee Oswald was the man arrested, and I said I think I said, "This idiot has got himself arrested and got himself mixed up to get some publicity".

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you say that?

Mr. FORD. Again, I considered him to be erratic and unpredictable, I don't know how to explain the things that he would do.

For example, he had gone to Russia and he didn't like it there, he had gone back to Fort Worth and he didn't like it there. He didn't seem to like any place that he was, he didn't seem to make lasting friendships with anybody. And he would hop from one job to another, and move from one town to another. He never seemed to be satisfied and I considered his whole behavior rather erratic, and I suppose the main reason was, I felt that he had no desire to support, and I felt this prior to the assassination, he had no desire to support his wife and child, and he wanted and would be quite willing to sponge off anybody to get their support, and this was my primary reason for not wanting to associate with him rather than any political feelings he had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did these things lead you to think that he was not capable of doing the assassination or that he just went there to get involved?

Mr. FORD. Prior to the assassination I never even considered the possibility of his killing a man but if somebody had asked me prior to the assassination, I would have answered no, I don't think he would kill anybody. But I don't think I really even considered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would have----

Mr. FORD. When the President was assassinated.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you would have based that response on the things you mentioned already.

Is there anything else you would have based that reason on?

Mr. FORD. Well, it is difficult to say. My general opinion of the man was that he was strange and he did a lot of things I couldn't understand but I had no reason to think he would attack a person with the intent to kill him.

As far as I knew there was nothing he had ever done before that that would indicate he would ever kill anybody. I don't know how you tell ahead of time whether a man can commit murder. I was never worried about him going out and killing somebody: say I would have never said prior to the assassination that you have got to watch out for this guy, he is dangerous. He didn't impress me that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had information prior to the assassination that he had beaten his wife, did you not?

Mr. FORD. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you take that information, would you take that, into consideration in the judgment that you just expressed?

Mr. FORD. No; I don't think so. I think man and wife can fight over a lot of things and it isn't necessary that either one of them would intend to kill somebody. He might become violent toward his wife, who is a much smaller and weaker person but he never impressed me as the type of person who would violently attack another man, for example.

Mr. FORD. When did you first hear that Lee Oswald was held by the authorities?

Mr. FORD. It was the afternoon of the assassination, I heard on the radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your reaction then?

Mr. FORD. Just what I said, my first reaction, "This idiot has gone down to get himself some attention and confuse the whole issue."

At that time I didn't know he was working in the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do subsequent to hearing this radio broadcast?

Mr. FORD. Let's see; I heard it in a hardware store and I went and picked up my wife who was shopping at the grocery store, picked her up, and told her what I had heard and we went home. I didn't do anything specifically that I can think of. I did not mention it to anybody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife on the way home from this shopping trip discuss the apprehension of Lee Oswald and his implication in the affair?

Mr. FORD. Well, I told her the police had picked him up, and that he was apparently being held both for the assassination of the President and for shooting a police officer, and my wife was a little bit worried then, I think, about the people's reaction to the children, and she said, well, "Don't mention it in front of the children."

By the time we got home, I believe Linda, my stepdaughter, had already talked on the phone to Mrs. Anna Ray, who had also heard the radio broadcast and called up to ask if my wife had heard it, and, of course, by then it was too late, they knew who Lee Oswald was, they read who he was, that Marina stayed at our house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then if I understand it you and your wife voluntarily went down to police headquarters?

Mr. FORD. Well, the next Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Two days later?

Mr. FORD. Yes; the assassination was on a Friday afternoon. On Sunday morning, Mr. Frank Ray called me and said he heard on the radio that the FBI had requested anybody who knew Lee Oswald to please contact them, and he asked me what I was going to do, I said, "Well, I don't know, I will call an attorney and see what he suggests." I called Max Clark at Fort Worth and he was out, so I called my sister out in Los Angeles. She is an attorney and married to one, and I said, "Who are you supposed to contact if you know information about Lee Oswald," and she said she assumed it would be the FBI, so I then called the FBI office and made an appointment to talk to an agent and we made the appointment to talk in the FBI office in downtown Dallas. While we were driving downtown I stopped to get some gas and the attendant told me that somebody had just shot Lee Oswald and it was right about that time that I went down to talk with the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this interval between your first reaction and your going to the interview with the FBI, did you and your wife discuss any further the Oswald implications?

Mr. FORD. I am sure we discussed it, but I can't remember exactly what we said to each other about it.

I think she was worried at first that her children would suffer some prejudice from other people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina's children?

Mr. FORD. No; our children. And, of course, also that Marina was and her two children, my wife felt, would be sort of considered persona non grata in this country from then on, but I didn't consider this would happen as long as she was not implicated in a plot to kill the President.

I know we discussed it but I just can't remember specifically what we said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, did you at any time learn of any desire on Oswald's part to return to Russia?

Mr. FORD. Yes; after the assassination I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?

Mr. FORD. Well, partly from discussing it, I heard it through friends and then later when Marina talked to my wife, I don't remember if this was during the time she visited us during January or after she moved in, but she did tell the story to my wife of his desire, as expressing a desire, to return to Russia, and I am a little confused as to what the story was.

As nearly as I could make out he had told her he wanted to go back to Russia first and then later said, no, he was going--couldn't get a visa to Russia and he was going to try to get a visa and go through Cuba and then go to Russia, and then I think he changed his mind again and said he was going to ask for a visa to Cuba, using it as an excuse with the idea of going to Russia and then stay in Cuba, and somewhere in there I got the idea that Marina was not willing to go. He wanted Marina to return to Russia and I had the impression this was just a--but I couldn't even give you the details of her various statements which led me to the conclusions--as nearly as I could figure out, this was the story she had told my wife and she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn at any time through your wife or otherwise that Marina Oswald at one point had contemplated committing suicide?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that?

Mr. FORD. Well, the first time I heard it was yesterday.

Mr. LIEBELER. During our conversations?

Mr. FORD. During our conversations, yesterday.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife explained to us in our conversations yesterday that she, Marina Oswald, had told her at onetime contemplated committing suicide?

Mr. FORD. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the extent of our conversations yesterday?

Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. That is right. I think my wife said Marina felt so desolate and downhearted that she felt that was the only way out at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you finished?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information or knowledge that you think the Commission should know about in connection with these matters that we haven't already asked you about?

Mr. FORD. There is nothing I can think of offhand.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversations yesterday you and your wife and I discussed your testimony today. Have we covered those matters here in the testimony and have there been any inconsistencies between what we discussed yesterday and what we have discussed today on the record that you can think of?

Mr. FORD. No; I can't think of any inconsistencies. I assume we have covered everything we discussed yesterday. I can't remember everything we discussed yesterday, so I am just assuming we covered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions then.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Ford, you drove Marina Oswald from your home to the Ray home?

Mr. FORD. Yes.

Representative FORD. In October or November of 1962?

Mr. FORD. It was in November.

Representative FORD. It was November of 1962. How long a drive is that?

Mr. FORD. It is about 15 minutes. I guess it couldn't be over 7 or 8 miles, 6, 7, 8 miles, something like that.

Representative FORD. Did you have any conversation with her at that time?

Mr. FORD. No. She couldn't speak but about a half dozen words of English.

Representative FORD. So there was no real conversation between the two of you?

Mr. FORD. No.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chief Justice, may I confer briefly with counsel?

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you born?

Mr. FORD. Los Angeles.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to the public schools there?

Mr. FORD. I attended both parochial and public schools in Los Angeles and Glendale.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you went to the University of California at Los Angeles?

Mr. FORD. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you go after that. You were in the service, did you say?

Mr. FORD. I was in the service. After I got out of the service I went back to UCLA and finished my education and then went to work in the oil industry first in Bakersfield and in Los Angeles, Ventura, and then went to work for DeGollyer and McNaughton overseas.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Representative FORD. How old are you, Mr. Ford?

Mr. FORD. Forty-one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ford, were you at any time present in Mr. McKenzie's office, William McKenzie, when there was a discussion with Marina Oswald concerning guns and the gun that was used to or presumably used to attack Walker and the gun that was subsequently presumably used to attack the President?

Mr. FORD. I don't remember any discussion. I have been in his office several times when he was discussing things with Marina, but I don't remember him ever asking about this gun or discussing this gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear McKenzie at anytime advise Marina if she were asked about these guns she should say there was only one gun?

Mr. FORD. I think I did hear him say that once or something to that effect but I don't remember specifically the words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall----

Mr. FORD. But I don't think it was any discussion about the gun used in shooting General Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.

Mr. FORD. As nearly as I can remember it, the whole discussion was, he was telling her, he had asked her if there was anything else but this one rifle and she said no, and he said "be sure you always say that there was just this one gun," but I thought he was referring to the gun used only in the case of the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. He asked her about this before he advised her?

Mr. FORD. Apparently this was after she had been interrogated by the FBI and I don't know--I just had the impression they were talking about the possibility that more than one gun was used in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the best you can recall about that conversation?

Mr. FORD. The best I can recall, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Ford. I appreciate your coming here with your wife. You have been very helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's call Mr. Gregory.

TESTIMONY OF PETER PAUL GREGORY

Mr. Gregory, you were given a copy of a statement of the reason for our meeting today, were you not?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I will read it to you. This is customary----

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We read a statement to the witness.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford, and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions, in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.

The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintances of a large number of Russian speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area. Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others, and any and all matters relating to the assassination.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, Mr. Gregory.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GREGORY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated.

Mr. Liebeler will ask the questions of you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. GREGORY. My name is Peter Paul Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. And will you tell us where you were born?

Mr. GREGORY. I was born in Chita, Siberia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly how you came to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

I came to the United States on or about August 1, 1923. I landed in San Francisco; came from Japan where I lived for 2 years prior to that. And my purpose was, of course, to come as an immigrant and to attend the University of California.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend the University of California?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I enrolled at the University in 1923 and I stayed out of the University for a couple of years but I graduated in 1929 as a petroleum engineer at Berkeley.

Mr. LIEBELER. What educational background did you have in Russia or Japan before you came to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. I started my primary education in Russia, in 1912, and my education was interrupted by civil war in 1919. I finished high school or the equivalent of high school in Tokyo, Japan, where I attended the American school in Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn to speak English?

Mr. GREGORY. I learned it in Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you personally involved in the civil war in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. Not personally, no. I was too young; I was only 16, 17 at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were any of your relatives involved in that?

Mr. GREGORY. My older brother was an officer in the White Russian Army.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you presently reside in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I have been residing in Fort Worth for the past 20 years, and prior to that in the oilfields in the western part of Texas for 15 years, and prior to that I resided in California from 1923 to 1929.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently self-employed in Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. I am presently chairman of the Yates Pool Engineering Committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in the Yates oilfield in Pecos County, Tex., and I am also a consulting petroleum engineer.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are fluent in the Russian language, are you?

Mr. GREGORY. I am, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you teach Russian at the Fort Worth Public Library, is that correct?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I do; as a civic enterprise. I teach Russian once a week from 10 to 20 weeks a year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long have you been doing that, sir?

Mr. GREGORY. For about 3 or 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about your first contact with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

It was in the middle of June 1962. On that particular morning, I was in the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me that my name was given to him by the Fort Worth Public Library. He knew I was teaching Russian at the library, that he was looking for a job as a translator or interpreter in the Russian and English languages, and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that effect.

He spoke to me in English, so I suggested to him, not knowing who that was, that he might drop by my office and I would be glad to give him a test. He did. He came by the office, about 11 o'clock that morning, and I gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it.

He did it very well. So I gave him a letter addressed to whom it may concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a translator.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after you gave Mr. Oswald--this individual was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; that individual was Lee Harvey Oswald.

After that, I asked him--I noticed that he spoke with what I thought to be a Polish accent, so I asked him if he were of Polish origin, and he stated that he was not, that he was raised in Fort Worth, Tex., but that he learned Russian in the Soviet Union where he lived for 2-1/2 or 3 years.

He also told me that he married a Russian girl, and that he brought his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. I told him that I knew of no openings at the time--I didn't know of any--for services of a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address I would be glad to get in touch with him if and when I learned of any such openings.

He gave me his address. He lived with his brother at that time at the western edge of Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever send him any work as a translator or interpreter?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Mr. Oswald have lunch together that day.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. It was about noontime when I gave him that test, so I invited him to lunch, and during the lunch being naturally curious about the present day life in the Soviet Union, I was asking him questions, asked how people lived there, and so forth.

He told me that he was employed in a factory in Minsk as a sheet-metal worker. He told me a little bit about the working conditions and living conditions in that country.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he was paid as a worker?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I think I asked him what he was paid and my recollection is that he told me he was getting about 80 rubles a month. I may be wrong about that but that is my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his salary with the salary of other workers in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. Other workers in the Soviet Union?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. No, he did not. By way of comparison. I was curious as to what the purchasing power of his earnings would be, I asked him what 80 rubles would buy, and I think he mentioned, as I say, a pair of shoes cost around 15 rubles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any source of income other than his job at the factory?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about why he went to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. The only statement he made that I remember, he said, "I went to the Soviet Union on my own," but I did not feel like prying into his affairs. I did not press the question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he was dressed or anything else about him that would seem strange to you?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was a very hot morning. You know in Texas in the middle of June, it is generally hot. I remember that he wore a flannel, woolen coat, suit, and atrocious looking shoes that were made in Russia.

I know he was very uncomfortable because he was too warmly dressed for that time of the year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Oswald tell you anything else at that time about conditions in the Soviet Union or his attempt to come back to the United States or bringing his wife back that you can recall?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall of anything outstanding that he told me. But I think he did tell me that they, he and his wife, left Moscow by train, and they went through East Germany to Berlin, I believe, and that their destination was Amsterdam, I believe, where they took a ship to come to New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express anything about any difficulties that he might have had in returning to the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that his wife was able to leave the Soviet Union with him or didn't you think about that?

Mr. GREGORY. I thought at the time it was more than extraordinary.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. GREGORY. Because simply from reading accounts of the difficulties experienced by so many Americans who married Russian girls in the Soviet Union, and all the difficulties they had to secure permits from the Soviet Government for an exit visa for their wives.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him?

Mr. GREGORY. The next time was a few days later, and the occasion was this, to the best of my recollection. My youngest son Paul, who at the time was a junior at the University of Oklahoma, Paul majoring in economics and also studying the Russian and the German languages, Paul expressed a wish to meet Marina Oswald simply because she was fresh from the country, Russia; that presumably her language was pure Russian language as compared to mine which became, shall we say, affected by my 40 years living in the United States, is not pure Russian any more probably, in fact, he thought that maybe he could take lessons of the Russian language from Marina Oswald.

So, I arranged; I called Lee Oswald at his brother's residence, and asked if it would be, if they would be, at home, that my son and I would come out to visit them, and we did. I don't remember the date but it must have been within possibly within 10 days, the first 10 days after his initial contact with me at the office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let us try to set the date of your initial contact. I have here a copy, not a confirmed copy, but just a typewritten copy of a letter entitled "To Whom it May Concern." I show it to you and ask you if that is the letter to the best of your recollection that you gave to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that is a copy of the letter I gave. That was on June 19, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. I ask that it be admitted in evidence and marked as the next exhibit.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

It will be marked as Exhibit 384.

Very well, it is admitted as Exhibit 384.

(The letter referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 384 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. GREGORY. I would hazard a guess that the second contact with Lee Oswald that I just referred to was made, say, around the 25th, toward the end of June 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you went to see him at his brother's house?

Mr. GREGORY. At his brother Robert's, Robert Oswald's house. Paul and I spent there perhaps an hour, speaking Russian with Marina, and mostly with Marina. They showed some pictures, snapshots of their friends, of themselves, taken in Minsk. We talked about the living conditions, just in a very general way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss politics with him at any time?

Mr. GREGORY. Not with Lee Oswald, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression from just talking to the Oswalds at this time that Oswald was treated pretty much as other Russians were in Russia or did you think he had a special situation there in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. My personal impression was that he was treated there as the rest of the Russians.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son subsequently have additional contacts with the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. He and I made arrangements for Marina Oswald to give him lessons, conversational lessons, I believe it was twice a week, and Paul paid her for these lessons. I don't remember the exact amount, whether it came under the minimum or not, it was around a dollar and a half an hour. And he took those lessons after he made a visit to his aunt in San Francisco in July of 1962. So, I would say that he took lessons from Marina Oswald, say, from approximately August 1 to September 15 when he went back to the university of Oklahoma.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when the last contact was that your son had with the Oswalds?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge his last contact with them was the Thanksgiving Day of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you whether he had discussions with Oswald concerning politics and economics and things like that?

Mr. GREGORY. He mentioned once, I believe, that there were political discussions.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. He told me that he thought Lee Oswald was pretty silly in his views.

The CHAIRMAN. Pretty silly?

Mr. GREGORY. Silly.

The CHAIRMAN. Silly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any other----

Mr. GREGORY. He also mentioned that he saw some book on Marxism, whether it was Das Kapital or some other book I don't recall now, but he saw a book on Marxism in Lee's residence when they lived on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say in words or substance that he thought that Oswald was a half-baked Communist?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that is the expression he used, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there--did you ever go to Oswald's own apartment?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I went there once to take Paul to his lesson. I, in other words I visited in their so-called living room once, when they lived on Mercedes Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. In Fort Worth, yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what the conditions in their home were like?

Mr. GREGORY. It was practically a bare room. There was no furniture to speak of. There was the bare necessities; there was no playpen or crib for the baby. The baby was playing in the middle of the floor in the living room, as I remember. It was an extremely primitively furnished room, and the rest of the house was the same way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether the Oswald baby was being adequately cared for?

Mr. GREGORY. No; that I don't know. I do know this, that Oswald showed outward signs of love toward the baby. He would pucker his lips and this and that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating that he had affection for the child?

Mr. GREGORY. For the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that visit did you have any discussion with Oswald about living conditions or anything else in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I simply took Paul in for that lesson, and I left before the lesson began.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you held a dinner party to which you invited Mr. Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. Well, really, it was not a dinner party. It was a small dinner. I mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald went to school in Leningrad, formerly St. Petersburg prior to the revolution, and a friend of mine, George Bouhe of Dallas, who is an accountant, was born and raised in St. Petersburg. He indicated to me that he would like to meet Marina Oswald and his fellow townswoman and townsman, so I discussed it with my wife, and she thought she will invite Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald and Mr. Bouhe, and a friend of Mr. Bouhe, Mrs. Meller of Dallas, to their dinner. I am sure Paul was at home at that time, so there were six of us at the dinner and my wife and my son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us when the dinner was held?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; it was before Paul went back to school so I assume it was in the early party of September, maybe it was late in August.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe is a native born Russian?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; he was born in St. Petersburg.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mrs. Meller?

Mr. GREGORY. I assume Mrs. Meller was born in Ukrania.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this dinner party was there any discussion between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe with the Oswalds concerning their background, experiences in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. The conversation, as I recall it, centered mostly on St. Petersburg. Bouhe brought with him his albums of St. Petersburg, and he was asking her and they were both looking at the pictures, and is such and such statue on the main street of St. Petersburg, and so on and so forth. I think that was the gist of the conversation.

They also discussed the present day life in the Soviet Union. I do recall, the conversation was mostly with Marina, and she did not speak any English at that time, so all of that conversation was in the Russian language, which my wife does not understand at all.

I remembered that Lee Oswald hazarded, he would interject into the conversation, and he was a little bit critical of the attitude of the Soviet Government toward its own people, and here is what I am trying to say; he said they make the best shoes in Minsk for export, and the people get the--and I think he indicated his own shoes, which he still wore at that time. Then just very, very slight criticism, not politically, but sort of in the sense of economics that the people were not getting the best products, they were all for export.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at that time was there any indication that Oswald was better treated than other people in the Soviet Union or did you maintain the impression throughout your acquaintance with Oswald that he was treated similarly to other Russians?

Mr. GREGORY. That was my impression, that he was treated the same as other Russians.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you detect any friction between Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald at this dinner?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any indication at that time that Lee Oswald had beaten his wife in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that Marina Oswald had been beaten?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I haven't seen it personally. I have heard reports from my friends that he did mistreat her physically, and that he had blackened her eyes, and once even extinguished a cigarette on her shoulder, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. GREGORY. To the best of my recollection it was either--I think it was Bouhe or it could have been Mrs. Meller, but I believe it was Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was at a time subsequent to this dinner party?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; subsequent. It was after the assassination of the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. That Bouhe told you?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at all discuss the reason why he went to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. No; he just told me, you know once, the very first time I met him that he went there on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any desire to return to Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. I learned subsequently that he did but he never indicated it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald maintained contacts with people that he had associated with in Russia?

Mr. GREGORY. None to my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know that he wrote them letters?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir. Excuse me, sir, when you asked me about his relations with Marina Oswald, I don't know whether this is of any importance or not, but during my first visit at their apartment on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, the second time I saw Marina, I suggested to him that he should insist that she learn English as quickly as possible because it would be so much easier for her to get along in this country, and he replied that he would prefer that she did not learn English at all or else he would lose his fluency in the Russian language.

So it showed to me that he didn't particularly care about her. He cared more about himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to him in response to that?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; I was frankly very much disgusted with that sort of attitude.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever come to your office?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, he came to my office once or twice more. Once I was in the office when he came, and at that time, apparently he was downtown, my office is downtown in Fort Worth, he brought with him some typewritten sheets which he told me he was writing his memoirs of his life in the Soviet Union.

I remember seeing, I did not read the manuscripts at all, but I saw some snapshots or photographs attached to some typewritten sheets.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time that you--did you have any other contacts with Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he came to the office once more but I was not in the office, my secretary told me that he came by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he came to your office for? Did he indicate any particular reason for coming there?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't recall. I don't know why he came back. Frankly, I don't remember. Here is something else that--one of the newspaper reporters came to the office and asked me if I would deliver a letter to Oswald, a reporter who tried several times to contact Oswald and get the story of his life or something like that, and they simply refused to see him. Why he choose me, I don't know. How he learned that Oswald came to my office, I don't know. But this man came and asked me to deliver this letter to Oswald the next time he came to the office, and I remember now that he did come once or twice more because I handed him that letter, and Oswald took it and put it in his pocket.

Representative FORD. When were these visits, the second and third visits to your office?

Mr. GREGORY. I would say that was probably during the month of July 1962.

Representative FORD. 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever ask you to help him work on a book?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That he was working on?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than these contacts we have discussed, did you have any other contacts with Oswald ever?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I was at home when my son Paul answered a telephone call from Lee Oswald and he asked if Paul would come to get them, I guess they were at his brother's, they were going to Dallas, they moved to Dallas by then, so it must have been in October or maybe it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Thanksgiving?

Mr. GREGORY. It could have been Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving. It was Thanksgiving Day. Paul went to Oswald, Robert Oswald, and brought Marina and Lee Oswald and the baby to the house. He fixed some sandwiches for them and he took them to the bus station and they went to Dallas where they had already established residence. That was the last time I saw Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald until after the assassination of the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the basis of your contacts with Lee Oswald during this period of time, did you form any judgment of him?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I think I did. He impressed me as a man that, first, he carried some sort of a chip on his shoulder. I also had the impression that, probably unfounded on my part, I don't know, I just formed that impression, that he, Lee Oswald, felt that he did not get proper recognition from the people, say, in the United States, maybe even in the Soviet Union. I don't know. In other words, I felt like he thought that he was a better man than the other people thought he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he desired to achieve recognition?

Mr. GREGORY. That is my distinct impression of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion as to whether he was ever able to command this recognition and respect that he was seeking?

Mr. GREGORY. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was an intelligent person?

Mr. GREGORY. Fairly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he was capable of performing an act such as an assassination of a President?

Mr. GREGORY. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you base that opinion on?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, he was a Marine; he, as I said, he carried a chip on his shoulder. From the best--from what I have read and so forth, I personally am of the opinion that he assassinated the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, based on your knowledge of him prior to the assassination did you have any reason to believe that he might do such a thing?

Mr. GREGORY. Prior to that time, no, sir. I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't regard him as a dangerous individual or something of that sort, did you?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I thought he was--I did not think he was an unbalanced person or crazy person or anything like that. I would say he was sort of, I would say I thought he was sort of a peculiar person but I never thought he would do an act like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever make the acquaintance of the mother?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I teach Russian once a week at the library. We started a new series of lessons on November 12, 1963, and in my class there was a lady by the name of Marguerite Oswald. Frankly, I never connected her with Lee Oswald. Oswald was just a name to me, and I did not learn about it until the day of the assassination. Or the next day, the next day, that she was his mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald call you on the telephone at any time after the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. She called me----

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it?

Mr. GREGORY. Sunday morning, November 24, about 7 o'clock in the morning, from Dallas.

Representative FORD. This is the mother called?

Mr. GREGORY. The mother. Sunday morning about 7 o'clock in the morning, and she said, I still remember, she said, "Mr. Gregory, I need your help. The reporters, the news media were badgering me." I think that is the word she used. She said, "I wonder if some of your friends or you could provide a place for me to hide from them." And it sounded like she was crying on the telephone, although I think that woman is not taken to crying.

So I told her--she did not want to identify herself when she called me first. I asked her, I said, "Who are you?" And she said, "I would rather not tell you who I am but I shall identify myself by saying I am one of the students in the Russian class in the library." Of course, I knew it was Mrs. Oswald. In fact, I guessed who she was before she even tried to identify herself. So I told her, I said, "Now, I will tell you what I will do, Mrs. Oswald, you stay where you are and I will promise to you that I will come to see you sometime today." Of course, I knew where she was because the Secret Service told me where they had her before.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service contacted you the day before?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Saturday?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact they had asked you to come and translate an interview with Marina Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't do it because you didn't need to do it that day?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Oswald that day?

Mr. GREGORY. No, I did not see him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you later on Sunday go to see Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. As soon as I hung up the phone, I was talking to Marguerite Oswald, I called the U.S. Secret Service and reported this call, of course, and an agent, I called Agent Howard, who lives just north of Fort Worth, and he said, "Well, that is fine, we will find a hiding place for her, for Marguerite and Marina Oswald and the babies," and he suggested he come by my house in a matter of 45 minutes or an hour and we will go to Dallas and then proceed from there. And that is what we did then. We went to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went to the Executive Inn where Marina and Mrs. Oswald were staying at that time, is that right?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; we went to the Executive Inn, and on the way we stopped en route on the turnpike, where the agents arranged a rendezvous with Robert Oswald and other agents, and we went to the Executive Inn in Dallas by the airport, and Robert and I went in and we told the women to pack up, that we were going to take them to, Robert told them we were going to take them to, the farm of his wife's parents, north of Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald objected to that?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, she objected, she said she didn't want to go there. But I told her that she bothered me to come, to call me at the house to provide a place for her and here I am, and if she doesn't like it then I am just through with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told her that?

Mr. GREGORY. So she packed up and we got with the agents in two or three cars, two cars, and we started toward that farm of Robert Oswald's parents. But en route we detoured because Marguerite Oswald mentioned the fact that the two little babies were all wet, and that there were no diaper change for them, that Marina and she had no change of dresses, and so forth, and she insisted that we go by Irving where Marina lived with Ruth Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you went and obtained some materials for the babies there?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, we didn't go to the house because we got the report that Lee Oswald was shot. You see, that all happened Sunday morning, it was 11 o'clock in the morning, we were driving from Dallas to Irving and we got this report that Lee was shot, and the police advised us not to go to the house because there was a mob, so we went to the Chief of Police of Irving, to his residence. Marina telephoned Ruth Paine from there to gather these things for the babies and a change of dress for her and some money and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went from there, then, to Parkland Hospital where some events occurred and then you came back to the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. GREGORY. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you about something that might have happened or happened at the Inn of the Six Flags.

There has been a newspaper report, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has said that on Saturday night an FBI agent came to the Executive Inn and showed her a picture of a man who she claims to be Jack Ruby. Have you seen newspaper reports to that effect?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, I have seen reports to that effect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Oswald says, also, that while at the Inn of the Six Flags she observed a newspaper that had Jack Ruby's picture in it and exclaimed in the presence of other people that that was the same picture as the FBI had showed her, that is what she says. Did you ever hear her say anything like that?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; not to my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never did anything like that in your presence?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you met Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite Oswald, and had a chance to observe her, did that further your judgment of Lee Harvey Oswald in any way?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir. I felt that a lot of his, many of his, peculiarities, possibly were brought on by the influence of his mother.

To me, she impressed me as being not necessarily rational. She is quite clever, but she certainly is most peculiar. She demands public attention, she wants to be the center of attention. As, for example, standing there in the middle of the room at the motel of that Six Flags, standing in the middle of the room saying "I want to make a statement," and she made those statements throughout the frequent intervals and always she would precede the statement by saying, "I want to make a statement. I feel that my son can't be buried anywhere but at the Arlington National Cemetery."

Mr. LIEBELER. And you detected similarities between Mrs. Oswald and Lee?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes; I felt they both craved public recognition or to be craving attention or publicity or whatever you wish to call it.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation last evening about your testimony, I asked you about Mrs. Ruth Paine, and you told me that Mrs. Ruth Paine had come to visit you at a time subsequent to the assassination.

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir; she never did. Ruth Paine?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. No. She called me on the phone once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Called on the telephone?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes. But I have never met her.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the conversation between you and her?

Mr. GREGORY. She asked me if I would tutor her in writing letters in Russian. If I remember, she mentioned that she either was going to write to the Soviet Embassy or Soviet Union, something like that, but I told her I was just too busy, I have no time for that. In fact, I didn't want to have anything to do with that sort of--I didn't want to write letters to the Soviet Union or to the Embassy or anybody else.

Representative FORD. How long have you taught Russian, Mr. Gregory?

Mr. GREGORY. In the library?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. GREGORY. For approximately 3 or 4 years from 10 to 20 weeks a year.

Representative FORD. Have you taught Russian in any other area or capacity?

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir; I taught Russian a couple of years ago, not more than 2 years ago, at Carswell Air Force Base at Fort Worth, where I had a class of officers and men in the Russian language. With the result that two out of my class passed the Russian examination, and the rest flunked.

Representative FORD. How long would you estimate it would normally take for a person of average intelligence to learn to speak and write Russian as fluently as Oswald did?

Mr. GREGORY. If he lived in this country or in that country? That would make a lot of difference.

Representative FORD. Well, let's take this country first.

Mr. GREGORY. This country. That would depend again on the effort put out by the particular individual. If he were in earnest I would think he could do it in about 4 years.

Representative FORD. That is an ordinary person living in the United States?

Mr. GREGORY. Living in the United States.

Representative FORD. Who made----

Mr. GREGORY. Going to study Russian, say at the university, normal load, maybe 4 hours a week, plus homework, it would take about 4 years.

If he lived in the country----

Representative FORD. In the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union, he probably could do it in 2 or 3 years.

Representative FORD. Did Oswald tell you when he first visited you that he had learned to speak Russian, where?

Mr. GREGORY. In the Soviet Union.

Representative FORD. He never gave you any indication he had learned or studied prior to going to the Soviet Union?

Mr. GREGORY. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have about one or two more questions.

Did you discuss at any time with Marina Oswald the conversation that she had with Lee Oswald after the assassination?

Mr. GREGORY. Would you mind to state that again?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Marina Oswald spoke with Lee after the assassination, when he was in the jail.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, I don't remember whether it was Marina or whether it was Marguerite Oswald. I don't remember now; they did go to see him in the jail in the city of Dallas, and it must have been Marguerite because she was bragging what a wonderful son he is because he looked at the little girl, June, she is 2 years old, and he said, "You have got to buy her a new pair of shoes," I remember that. It must have been Marguerite because she used that as an illustration of what a wonderful boy he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you have no information as to what transpired at that time, happened at that time?

Mr. GREGORY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Gregory, that it was through Oswald's contact with you that he subsequently made the association with and contact with the other members of the Russian community in Dallas and Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I think that would be a fair statement, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman?

Representative FORD. I have one more, Mr. Gregory.

I believe Marina has testified when she first met Lee Harvey Oswald it was approximately 17 months after he had arrived in the Soviet Union. She testified, also, that she could not tell whether he was a native born resident of the Soviet Union or a foreigner by the way he spoke.

Mr. GREGORY. Yes.

Representative FORD. Is that unusual?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, frankly. I don't know. You see, Congressman, the city of Minsk is what we call, they call it, not we call, they call it in the White Russia Republic. You know they called this the Union of Republics, you know, in the White Russian Republic, and Minsk, I guess, is the capital of it.

It is fairly close to Poland, and there are all sorts of people, Poles, Lithuanians, probably Latvians, that lived in that part of the country, and none of those people speak pure Russian.

Now, whether she had reference, whether that had anything to do with her statement----

Representative FORD. Her observations?

Mr. GREGORY. Right; I don't know.

Now, I thought that Lee Oswald spoke with a Polish accent, that is why I asked him if he was of Polish descent.

Representative FORD. But leaving----

Mr. GREGORY. But, otherwise, I would say it would be rather unusual, rather unusual for a person who lived in the Soviet Union for 17 months that he would speak so well that a native Russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not.

Representative FORD. That would be a very unusual kind of a person?

Mr. GREGORY. It would be, yes.

Representative FORD. Or a person who had unusual training?

Mr. GREGORY. Right, or unusual ability or training, yes, that is right.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Gregory. You have been very helpful.

(Whereupon, at 1 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Monday, March 16, 1964

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES, COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, AND LT. COL. PIERRE A. FINCK

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on March 16, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. JAMES J. HUMES

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Commander Humes, will you please step up. You know, Commander, what we have met for today to take your testimony concerning the autopsy and anything else you might know concerning the assassination of the President.

Would you raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Commander HUMES. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated?

You may proceed.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, will you state your full name for the record, please?

Commander HUMES. James Joseph Humes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your profession or occupation, please?

Commander HUMES. I am a physician and employed by the Medical Department of the United States Navy.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your rank in the Navy?

Commander HUMES. Commander, Medical Corps. United States Navy.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you receive your education, Commander Humes, please.

Commander HUMES. I had my undergraduate training at St. Joseph's College at Villanova University in Philadelphia. I received my medical degree in 1948 from the Jefferson Medical College of Philadelphia.

I received my internship and my postgraduate training in my special field of interest in Pathology in various Naval hospitals, and at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed in Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. What do your current duties involve?

Commander HUMES. My current title is Director of Laboratories of the Naval Medical School at Naval Medical Center at Bethesda. I am charged with the responsibility of the overall supervision of all of the laboratory operations in the Naval medical center, two broad areas, one in the field of anatomic pathology which comprises examining surgical specimens and postmortem examinations and then the rather large field of clinical pathology which takes in examination of the blood and various body fluids.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of Pathology?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; both in anatomic pathology and in clinical pathology in 1955.

Mr. SPECTER. What specific experience have you had, if any, with respect to gunshot wounds?

Commander HUMES. My type of practice, which fortunately has been in peacetime endeavor to a great extent, has been more extensive in the field of natural disease than violence. However, on several occasions in various places where I have been employed, I have had to deal with violent death, accidents, suicides, and so forth. Also I have had training at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, I have completed a course in forensic pathology there as part of my training in the overall field of pathology.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific function in connection with that autopsy?

Commander HUMES. As the senior pathologist assigned to the Naval Medical Center, I was called to the Center by my superiors and informed that the President's body would be brought to our laboratories for an examination, and I was charged with the responsibility of conducting and supervising this examination; told to also call upon anyone whom I wished as an assistant in this matter, that I deemed necessary to be present.

Mr. SPECTER. Who did assist you, if anyone, in the course of the autopsy?

Commander HUMES. My first assistant was Commander J. Thornton Boswell, whose position is Chief of Pathology at the Naval Medical School, and my other assistant was Lt. Col. Pierre Finck, who is in the wound ballistics section of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.

When I ascertained the nature of the President's wounds, having had the facilities of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology offered to me by General Blumberg, the commanding officer of that institution, I felt it advisable and would be of help to me to have the services of an expert in the field of wound ballistics and for that reason I requested Colonel Finck to appear.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us who else in a general way was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please?

Commander HUMES. This, I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the President and not of the security measures of the other people who were present.

However, the Surgeon General of the Navy was present at one time or another. Admiral Galloway, the Commanding Officer of the National Naval Medical Center; my own commanding officer, Captain John H. Stover of the Naval Medical School, Dr. John Ebersole, one of the radiologists assigned to the Naval Hospital, Bethesda, who assisted with X-ray examinations which were made. These are the chief names, sir; that I can recall.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the autopsy start approximately?

Commander HUMES. The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely what X-rays or photographs were taken before the dissection started?

Commander HUMES. Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during the examination, which also maintains for the photographs, which were made as the need became apparent to make such.

However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began.

Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total before we finished the proceedings.

Mr. SPECTER. Now were those X-rays or photographs or both when you referred to the total number?

Commander HUMES. By the number I would say they are in number 15 to 20. There probably was ten or 12 X-ray films exposed in addition.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did this autopsy end?

Commander HUMES. At approximately 11 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did you observe on the late President, if any?

Commander HUMES. The wounds which we observed on the President were--excuse me, at this point might I use the charts which I have prepared?

Would that be appropriate?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; would you like to start with the neck wound?

Commander HUMES. All right, sir.

I might preface my remarks by stating that the President's body was received in our morgue in a closed casket. We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital, but he was unclothed once the sheet was removed from his body so we do not have at that time any clothing.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, before you identify what that represents let me place Commission Exhibit No. 385 on it so it may be identified.

(The drawing was marked Commission Exhibit No. 385 for identification.)

Commander HUMES. When appraised of the necessity for our appearance before this Commission, we did not know whether or not the photographs which we had made would be available to the Commission. So to assist in making our testimony more understandable to the Commission members, we decided to have made drawings, schematic drawings, of the situation as we saw it, as we recorded it and as we recall it. These drawings were made under my supervision and that of Dr. Boswell by Mr. Rydberg, whose initials are H. A. He is a hospital corpsman, second class, and a medical illustrator in our command at Naval Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you provide him with the basic information from which these drawings were made?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Distances, that sort of thing?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We had made certain physical measurements of the wounds, and of their position on the body of the late President, and we provided these and supervised directly Mr. Rydberg in making these drawings.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you checked the drawings subsequent to their preparation to verify their accuracy?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And proportion?

Commander HUMES. I must state these drawings are in part schematic. The artist had but a brief period of some 2 days to prepare these. He had no photographs from which to work, and had to work under our description, verbal description, of what we had observed.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be helpful to the artist, in redefining the drawings if that should become necessary, to have available to him the photographs or X-rays of the President?

Commander HUMES. If it were necessary to have them absolutely true to scale. I think it would be virtually impossible for him to do this without the photographs.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason for the necessity for having the photographs?

Commander HUMES. I think that it is most difficult to transmit into physical measurements the--by word the--exact situation as it was seen to the naked eye. The photographs were--there is no problem of scale there because the wounds, if they are changed in size or changed in size and proportion to the structures of the body and so forth, when we attempt to give a description of these findings, it is the bony prominences, I cannot, which we used as points of references, I cannot, transmit completely to the illustrator where they were situated.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the taking of photographs and X-rays routine or is this something out of the ordinary?

Commander HUMES. No, sir; this is quite routine in cases of this sort of violent death in our training. In the field of forensic pathology we have found that the photographs and X-rays are of most value, the X-rays particularly in finding missiles which have a way of going in different directions sometimes, and particularly as documentary evidence these are considered invaluable in the field of forensic pathology.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to show us what Commission Exhibit 385 depicts, please?

Commander HUMES. Actually, I think, sir, at this time the view from the posterior aspect would also be of value to the Commission.

This is----

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, I hand you the second exhibit which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 386.

(Commission Exhibit No. 386 was marked for identification.)

Commander HUMES. I believe at this point I would like to have, if you have my gross autopsy description because I will give the dimensions of these wounds at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. We will use the Commission Exhibit No. 387 and I will ask you first of all, for the record, to identify what this document is, Dr. Humes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 387 for identification.)

Commander HUMES. This document is a copy of the gross autopsy report which was prepared by myself, Dr. Boswell, and Dr. Finck, and completed within approximately 48 hours after the assassination of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that report bear your signature at its end?

Commander HUMES. It bears my signature on the first or covering page as well as on my last page, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now proceed to tell us what you observed with respect to the wound which is marked as appearing in the upper back or lower neck?

Mr. McCLOY. Have you identified that?

Mr. SPECTER. The one on the side is 385 and the one of the rear view is 386. And that one is 387. For purposes of our record, if you will, put them in as 385 and 386 for our printed record. You might want to put them in chalk above them so you will see the one on the left is 385 and on the right is 386.

Commander HUMES. These exhibits again are schematic representations of what we observed at the time of examining the body of the late President.

Exhibit 385 shows in the low neck an oval wound which--excuse me, I wish to get the measurements correct. This wound was situated just above the upper border of the scapula, and measured 7 by 4 millimeters, with its long axis roughly parallel to the long axis of vertical column.

We saw--I would rather not discuss the situation of the anterior neck at this time or would you prefer it?

Mr. SPECTER. How would you prefer to do it, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. I would prefer to discuss the wounds, two wounds, we saw posteriorly and the wound, other wound, of the skull before going to that.

Mr. SPECTER. That is fine, Dr. Humes, do it any way you find convenient. I will give you the other drawing and you can do them both together. Let the third drawing be marked as Commission Exhibit No. 388.

(The drawing referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 388 for identification.)

Commander HUMES. The wound in the low neck of which I had previously begun to speak is now posteriorly--is now depicted in 385, in 386 and in 388.

The second wound was found in the right posterior portion of the scalp. This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, and slightly above the external occipital protuberance which is a bony prominence situated in the posterior portion of everyone's skull. This wound was then 2-1/2 centimeters to the right and slightly above that point.

The third obvious wound at the time of the examination was a huge defect over the right side of the skull. This defect involved both the scalp and the underlying skull, and from the brain substance was protruding.

This wound measured approximately 13 centimeters in greatest diameter. It was difficult to measure accurately because radiating at various points from the large defect were multiple crisscrossing fractures of the skull which extended in several directions.

I have noted in my report that a detailed description of the lines of these fractures and of the types of fragments that were thus made were very difficult of verbal description, and it was precisely for this reason that the photographs were made so one might appreciate more clearly how much damage had been done to the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the photographs made available then, Dr. Humes, when Exhibit 388 was prepared?

Commander HUMES. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Commander HUMES. The photographs, to go back a moment, the photographs and the X-rays were exposed in the morgue of the Naval Medical Center on this night, and they were not developed, neither the X-rays or the photographs. They were submitted to the, and here, if I make a mistake I am not certain, to either the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to the Secret Service, I am not sure of those.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you submit those yourself immediately after they were taken, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. Again, one of the senior people present, I believe my own Commanding Officer, Captain Stover, took care of turning this material over to these authorities, and receiving a receipt for this information, for this material. It was--I supervised the positioning of the body for various of these examinations but as far as beyond that, I did not consider that my responsibility.

These, then, were the three wounds which were quite obvious at the time of the examination.

I could expand further on the general appearances of these wounds or I could turn to the anterior portion of the body and describe various other wounds which were present.

Mr. SPECTER. You were focusing on 388 before I last asked a question, Dr. Humes. Why don't you describe in general terms the nature of the wound which was present at the top of the head of the late President?

Commander HUMES. With your permission, sir, and Mr. Chief Justice, I think I might describe those two wounds together, and describe the defects in the scalp and in the skull in each instance.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine.

Commander HUMES. Would that be appropriate?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Commander HUMES. Turning now to Commission Exhibit 388, where we have depicted in the posterior right portion of the skull a wound which we have labeled "in" or a wound of entrance and a large roughly 13 cm. diameter defect in the right lateral vertex of the skull. I would go into some further detail in describing these wounds.

The scalp, I mentioned previously, there was a defect in the scalp and some scalp tissue was not available. However, the scalp was intact completely past this defect. In other words, this wound in the right posterior region was in a portion of scalp which had remained intact.

So, we could see that it was the measurement which I gave before, I believe 15 by 6 millimeters.

When one reflected the scalp away from the skull in this region, there was a corresponding defect through both tables of the skull in this area.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what you mean by both tables, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

The skull is composed of two layers of bone. We will put the scalp in in dotted lines.

The two solid lines will represent the two layers of the skull bone, and in between these two layers is loose somewhat irregular bone.

When we reflected the scalp, there was a through and through defect corresponding with the wound in the scalp.

This wound had to us the characteristics of a wound of entrance for the following reason: The defect in the outer table was oval in outline, quite similar to the defect in the skin.

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring there, Doctor, to the wound on the lower part of the neck?

Commander HUMES. No, sir; I am speaking here of the wound in the occiput.

The wound on the inner table, however, was larger and had what in the field of wound ballistics is described as a shelving or a coning effect. To make an analogy to which the members of the Commission are probably most familiar, when a missile strikes a pane of glass, a typical example, a B-B fired by a child's air rifle, when this strikes a pane of glass there will be a small, usually round to oval defect on the side of the glass from whence the missile came and a belled-out or coned-out surface on the opposite side of the glass from whence the missile came.

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Commander HUMES. Experience has shown and my associates and Colonel Finck, in particular, whose special field of interest is wound ballistics can give additional testimony about this scientifically observed fact.

This wound then had the characteristics of wound of entrance from this direction through the two tables of the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "this direction," will you specify that direction in relationship to the skull?

Commander HUMES. At that point I mean only from without the skull to within.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, proceed.

Commander HUMES. Having ascertained to our satisfaction and incidentally photographs illustrating this phenomenon from both the external surface of the skull and from the internal surface were prepared, we concluded that the large defect to the upper right side of the skull, in fact, would represent a wound of exit.

A careful examination of the margins of the large bone defect at that point, however, failed to disclose a portion of the skull bearing again a wound of--a point of impact on the skull of this fragment of the missile, remembering, of course, that this area was devoid of any scalp or skull at this present time. We did not have the bone.

In further evaluating this head wound, I will refer back to the X-rays which we had previously prepared. These had disclosed to us multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye, with a rather sizable fragment visible by X-ray just above the right eye. These tiny fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain in between were, in fact, just that extremely minute, less than 1 mm. in size for the most part.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, this would be a good juncture to produce two photographs.

May it please the Commission, Mr. Chief Justice Warren, I have identified as Commission Exhibits 389 and 390 which will at a later time be identified as being two frames from the motion picture camera operated by one Abraham Zapruder, being the amateur photographer who was on the scene, which I think would assist in evaluating the angle of the President's head corresponding to that exhibit designated as 388.

I will hand those to you, Dr. Humes, and ask you if you would state for the record the relative position of the President's head in 389 which is a frame about one-sixteenth of a second before the point of impact shown in Exhibit 390.

(The frames referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 389 and 390 for identification.)

Commander HUMES. It will be noted in Exhibit 389 that the President's head is bent considerably forward and perhaps somewhat to the left in this frame of the photograph 389.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that in approximately the same position as the angle of the head depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 388?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I would like to move for admission in evidence of Exhibits 385 through 390.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, and 390, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed now, Dr. Humes, to continue in your description of the head wound?

Commander HUMES. Head wound--a careful inspection of this large defect in the scalp and skull was made seeking for fragments of missile before any actual detection was begun. The brain was greatly lacerated and torn, and in this area of the large defect we did not encounter any of these minute particles.

I might say at this time that the X-ray pictures which were made would have a tendency to magnify these minute fragments somewhat in size and we were not too surprised in not being able to find the tiny fragments depicted in the X-ray.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many fragments were observed, Dr. Humes, on the X-ray?

Commander HUMES. I would have to refer to them again, but I would say between 30 or 40 tiny dust-like particle fragments of radio opaque material, with the exception of this one I previously mentioned which was seen to be above and very slightly behind the right orbit.

Mr. DULLES. Were these all fragments that were injected into the skull by the bullet?

Commander HUMES. Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, made its exit through this large defect.

A second portion of the missile or multiple second portions were deflected, and traversed a distance as enumerated by this interrupted line, with the major portion of that fragment coming to lodge in the position indicated.

Perhaps some of these minor fragments were dislodged from the major one as it traversed this course.

To better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, Dr. Boswell and I extended the lacerations of the scalp which were at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the President's ears. At that point, we had even a better appreciation of the extensive damage which had been done to the skull by this injury.

We had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these portions of the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted to further examine the brain, and seek specifically this fragment which was the one we felt to be of a size which would permit us to recover it.

Mr. SPECTER. When you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing there, are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the President's right eye?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the President's eye.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We dissected carefully in this region and in fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain tissue in just precisely this location.

Mr. SPECTER. How large was that fragment, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. I refer to my notes for the measurements of that fragment.

I find in going back to my report, sir, that we found, in fact, two small fragments in this approximate location. The larger of these measured 7 by 2 mm., the smaller 3 by 1 mm.

To make my presentation of this wound of the skull more logical to the Commission, I would like to go forward in time that evening to at a later hour. I apologize--time and what happened exactly at what moment escapes me at this time.

I mentioned previously that there was a large bony defect. Some time later on that evening or very early the next morning while we were all still engaged in continuing our examination, I was presented with three portions of bone which had been brought to Washington from Dallas by the agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

These were----

Mr. SPECTER. Might that have been by a Secret Service agent?

Commander HUMES. It could be, sir; these things----

Mr. SPECTER. At any rate, someone presented these three pieces of bone to you?

Commander HUMES. Someone presented these three pieces of bone to me, I do not recall specifically their statement as to where they had been recovered.

It seems to me they felt it had been recovered either in the street or in the automobile, I don't recall specifically.

We were most interested in these fragments of bone, and found that the three pieces could be roughly put together to account for a portion of this defect.

Mr. SPECTER. How much remained unaccounted for, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. I would estimate that approximately one-quarter of that defect was unaccounted for by adding these three fragments together and seeing what was left.

This is somewhat difficult, because as back to when we were actually looking for the fragments of metal, as we moved the scalp about, fragments of various sizes would fall to the table, and so forth, so it was difficult to put that exact figure into words.

However, the thing which we considered of importance about these three fragments of bone was that at the margins of one of them which was roughly pyramidal in shape, there was a portion of the circumference of what we interpreted as a missile wound. We thus interpreted it this because there was, the size was, sufficiently large for us, for it to have the curve of the skull still evident. At the point of this defect, and I will draw both tables of the bone in this defect, at the area which we interpreted as the margin of a missile wound, there was a shelving of the margin.

This would, to us, mean that a missile had made this wound from within the skull to the exterior. To confirm that this was a missile wound, X-rays were made of that fragment of bone, which showed radio-opaque material consistent and similar in character to the particles seen within the skull to be deposited in the margins of this defect, in this portion of the bone.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what conclusion did you reach as to what caused that hole reconstructed from the three portions of the late President's scalp?

Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion a missile entered the left--the right posterior inferior portion----

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, perhaps it would be helpful if you would refer to that as letter "A" and the exit as letter "B", so that the record is clear on those two points and perhaps it will be helpful to your description as well.

And would you mark them as well, with a pencil?

Commander HUMES. That is not entry for the second.

Mr. SPECTER. Exit for the second?

Commander HUMES. I will label 388 with the letter "A" to indicate our opinion as to the wound of entrance into the skull.

I will label as Point "B" the area of exit of a portion of the missile that entered posteriorly. I say a portion because a small fragment was seen in the position previously noted which was recovered.

However, we concluded that a very significant portion, perhaps the largest portion, made its exit and accounted for this very large defect for the multiple fractures of the skull and for the loss of brain and scalp tissue at this point.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe at this juncture the damage which was inflicted upon the brain, please?

Commander HUMES. May I refer at this point to the gross description of the brain prepared separately?

Mr. SPECTER. Certainly, Dr. Humes, if you prefer to do it in that order.

Commander HUMES. I believe you have that. It is the second portion of the report.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. I can make that available to you here.

Commander HUMES. While that is being provided, when we reflected the scalp away from the badly damaged skull, and removed some of these loosened portions of skull bone, we were able to see this large defect in the right cerebral hemisphere. It corresponded roughly in size with the greatest diameter of the defect in the scalp measuring some 13 cm.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show I am handing to you, Dr. Humes, an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit 391, and will you identify what that is, please, Doctor?

Commander HUMES. Exhibit 391 is listed as a supplementary report on the autopsy of the late President Kennedy, and was prepared some days after the examination.

This delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study of the brain.

The brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination.

From my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.

We also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated.

To continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the brain, following the formal infixation, Dr. Boswell, Dr. Finck and I convened to examine the brain in this state.

We also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to depict the extent of these injuries.

We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves.

This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.

The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex.

The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.

The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration.

In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain.

When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution.

Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description.

When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.

This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.

There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the relative intact skull.

This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location.

This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to the President's head wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an opinion, Dr. Humes, as to whether there were dumdum bullets used specifically on this wound which struck point "A" of the head, on 388?

Commander HUMES. I believe these were not dumdum bullets, Mr. Specter. A dumdum bullet is a term that has been used to describe various missiles which have a common characteristic of fragmenting extensively upon striking.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize the resultant effect on this bullet as not extensive fragmenting?

Commander HUMES. Yes. Had this wound on point "A" on Exhibit 388 been inflicted by a dumdum bullet, I would anticipate that it would not have anything near the regular contour and outline which it had. I also would anticipate that the skull would have been much more extensively disrupted, and not have, as was evident in this case, a defect which quite closely corresponded to the overlying skin defect because that type of a missile would fragment on contact and be much more disruptive at this point.

Mr. SPECTER. At this point would you state for the record the size and approximate dimension of the major wound on the top of the head which you have marked wound "B"?

Commander HUMES. This was so large, that localization of it in a descriptive way is somewhat difficult.

However, we have mentioned that its major--its greatest dimension was approximately 13 cm. The reason it was difficult to measure is that various fracture lines extend out from it in a quite irregular fashion, but it was approximately 13 cm.

Mr. McCLOY. This red that is marked on 388 on the base of the skull, is that seepage or what?

Commander HUMES. No, sir; that is to depict the musculature at the base of the neck.

Mr. McCLOY. I see.

Commander HUMES. That is not taken to depict the blood, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On the reconstruction of the three portions of the scalp which you described----

Commander HUMES. Skull, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Skull, which enabled you to reconstruct a point of exit of the bullet, will you state at this point of the record that size of opening or exit path of the bullet?

Commander HUMES. As I mentioned previously, at one angle of this largest pyramidal shaped fragments of bone which came as a separate specimen, we had the portion of the perimeter of a roughly what we would judge to have been a roughly circular wound of exit. Judging from that portion of the perimeter which was available to us, we would have judged the diameter of that wound to be between 2.5 and 3 cm.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, have you now described the major characteristics and features of the wounds to the late President's head?

Commander HUMES. I believe that I have, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now turn your attention, please to the wound which is noted on 385 and 386 being at the----

Mr. McCLOY. Before we leave that, could I ask a question?

When you talk about dumdum bullets, do you include the ordinary type of soft nose sporting bullets, maybe this is something that Colonel Finck would be more expert on, but was that, was the bullet, could it possibly have been a sporting type of hunting bullet that has a soft nose but is still somewhat firm?

Commander HUMES. From the characteristics of this wound, Mr. McCloy, I would believe that it must have had a very firm head rather than a soft head.

Mr. McCLOY. Steel jacketed, would you say, copper jacketed bullet?

Commander HUMES. I believe more likely a jacketed bullet because of the regular outline which was present.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. Believing that we know the type of bullet that was usable in this gun, would this be the type of wound that might result from that kind of a bullet?

Commander HUMES. I believe so, sir.

Mr. DULLES. If my question is clear----

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. DULLES. We think we know what the bullet is, we may be wrong but we think we know what it was, is this wound consistent with that type of bullet?

Commander HUMES. Quite consistent, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. There is no evidence of any keyholing of the bullet before it hit, before the point of impact?

Commander HUMES. I don't exactly follow your question.

Mr. McCLOY. Was the bullet moving in a direct line or had it begun to tumble?

Commander HUMES. To tumble?

That is a difficult question to answer. I have the opinion, however, that it was more likely moving in a direct line. You will note that the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on Exhibit 388 is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not yet discussed in the low neck. We believe that rather than due to a tumbling effect, this is explainable on the fact that this missile struck the skin and skull at a more tangential angle than did the other missile, and, therefore, produced a more elongated defect, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? Perhaps you have done this, but if not, how would you explain the difference of the courses of the fragments which you traced and described as, I think, being discovered behind the right eye?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. And the course of the fragment which was believed caused the large defect?

Commander HUMES. Caused the large defect?

Senator COOPER. How do you explain----

Commander HUMES. The discrepancy?

Senator COOPER. The difference in the courses.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

As this missile penetrated the scalp, it then came upon a very firm substance, the hard skull, and I believe that this track depicted by the dotted lines on Exhibit 388 was a portion of that missile which was dislodged as it made its defect in the skull. And that--that another portion, and, as I say, presumably, by the size of the defect, a more major portion made its exit through the right lateral side of the skull.

Mr. McCLOY. Is this piece of pyramidal bone that was brought in to you subsequently as I understand it----

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Was that part of the outer table or the inner table?

Commander HUMES. It was both tables, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Both tables?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; had it only been one it might have been difficult to ascertain whether it was.

Mr. McCLOY. Shelving or not?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; in or out, but it encompassed both tables, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Is the angle of declination that you--one sees there from in and out approximately the angle you think at which the bullet was traveling at the time of impact and exit?

Commander HUMES. That is our impression, sir.

Mr. DULLES. So then the shot would have been fired from some point above the head of the person hit?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you elaborate a bit on the differences in the paths, specifically why the bullet went in one direction in part and in part in the second direction, terminating with the fragment right over the right eye?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

I will make a drawing of the posterior portion of the skull showing again this beveling which we observed at the inner table of the skull.

Our impression is that as this projectile impinged upon the skull in this fashion, a small portion of it was dislodged due to the energy expended in that collision, if you will, and that it went off at an angle, and left the track which is labeled 388, which is labeled on Exhibit 388 from "A", point "A" to the point where the fragment was found behind the eye.

Why a fragment takes any particular direction like that is something which is difficult of scientific explanation. Those of us who have seen missiles strike bones, be it the skull or a bone in the extremity, have long since learned that portions of these missiles may go off in various directions and the precise physical laws governing them are not clearly understood.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the angle be accentuated in any way if you were to assume the President was in a moving automobile going in a slight downhill direction?

Commander HUMES. There are many variables under these circumstances. The most--the crucial point, I believe, to be the relative position of the President's head in relation to the flight of the missile.

Now, this would be influenced by how far his head was bent, by the situation with regard to the level of the seat in the vehicle, off of the horizontal, and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. How about a decline in the path of the road itself?

Commander HUMES. I think that that would have a tendency to accentuate this angle, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission in evidence now of Exhibit 391, which is the exhibit on the brain report.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 391 was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, would you now move over to the wound which appears on the lower part of the neck and upper part of the back?

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question before we get to that, I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Certainly.

Mr. DULLES. Could one say as to what portion of the bullet was found in all these fragments, I mean arrive at an estimate, was it a tenth of the bullet, was it, how much was it, assuming the type of bullet that we believe was used in this particular rifle.

Commander HUMES. Sir, I have not had the opportunity to personally examine the type of bullet which is believed to have been represented by this injury.

However, I would estimate--if I understand you correctly the total amount that was present in the President's skull and brain?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Commander HUMES. Including the fragment?

Mr. DULLES. Including all the fragments.

Commander HUMES. Including all these minute particles. I would say there was something less than one-tenth of the total volume of the missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, do you make that calculation on the assumption that the bullets used here were 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle bullet weighing 158.6 grams?

Commander HUMES. Yes, I do; sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had I brought that particular fact to your attention prior to the time you started testifying here today?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. One point I intended to make clear these fragments which I recovered from this position were turned over to the Secret Service.

I presume that they have made physical measurements including the weight of them, and could give a much more intelligent estimate of the proportion than I. I would say, however, that we did not deliver these minute fragments because they were so small as to be essentially unrecoverable.

So, obviously they were of a very small portion of the major missile.

Mr. DULLES. These minute fragments were part of the bullet, emanations from the bullet?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. They were not from the head?

Commander HUMES. No, sir, they were small, dust, of the size of dust particles, however.

Mr. DULLES. Is the posture of the head of that figure there, the inclination of it, roughly the inclination that you think the President's head had at the time from the other photographs?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the photographs and based on the physical examination of this wound, yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have.

Mr. McCLOY. Perhaps this was something that Colonel Finck could testify to exactly, but, he would be quite competent. Is there anything to indicate that this was, might have been a larger than a 6.5 or smaller than a 6.5?

Commander HUMES. The size of the defect in the scalp, caused by a projectile could vary from missile to missile because of elastic recoil and so forth of the tissues.

However, the size of the defect in the underlying bone is certainly not likely to get smaller than that of the missile which perforated it, and in this case, the smallest diameter of this was approximately 6 to 7 mm., so I would feel that that would be the absolute upper limit of the size of this missile, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Seven would be the absolute upper limit?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; and, of course, just a little tilt could make it a little larger, you see.

Mr. DULLES. I have one other question, if I may.

Is the incidence of clean entry as indicated there, and then great fragmentation on exit, is that a normal consequence of this type of wound?

Commander HUMES. Sir, we feel that there are two potential explanations for this.

One, having traversed the skull in entrance in the occiput as depicted on 388, the missile begins to tumble, and in that fashion it presents a greater proportion of its surface to the brain substance and to the skull as it makes its egress.

The other and somewhat more difficult to measure and perhaps Colonel Finck will be able to testify in greater detail on this, is that a high velocity missile has tremendous kinetic energy, and this energy is expanded against the structures which it strikes, and so that much of this defect could be of the nature of blast, as this kinetic energy is dissipated by traversing the skull.

Is that the sense of the question, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Senator COOPER. I will ask a question, and perhaps this isn't in your field.

But assuming that the shot which struck President Kennedy at point A was fired by a gun from the window of the Texas School Book Depository, and which has been testified to, and assuming that you could locate the position of the President at the time he was struck by a bullet, you could then, could you not, establish the degree of the missile?

Commander HUMES. The degree of angle?

Senator COOPER. The angle, yes, the degree of angle of the missile from the building.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there is one difficulty, and that is the defect of exit was so broad that one has to rely more on the inclination of the entrance than they do connecting in this instance entrance and exit because so much of the skull was carried away in this fashion.

Senator COOPER. That was my second question.

My first question was would it be possible physically to establish the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet?

Commander HUMES. Within limited accuracy, sir.

Senator COOPER. Within limited accuracy.

That being true then my second question was whether the point of entry of the bullet, point A, and the, what you call the exit----

Commander HUMES. Exit.

Senator COOPER. Did you establish them so exactly that they could be related to the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; to our satisfaction we did ascertain that fact.

Mr. DULLES. Just one other question.

Am I correct in assuming from what you have said that this wound is entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if the shot were fired from in front or the side of the President: it had to be fired from behind the President?

Commander HUMES. Scientifically, sir, it is impossible for it to have been fired from other than behind. Or to have exited from other than behind.

Mr. McCLOY. This is so obvious that I rather hesitate to ask it. There is no question in your mind that it was a lethal bullet?

Commander HUMES. The President, sir, could not possibly have survived the effect of that injury no matter what would have been done for him.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. What conclusions did you reach then as to the trajectory or point of origin of the bullet, Dr. Humes, based on 388?

Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that this missile was fired toward the President from a point above and behind him, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on one detail on your report, Dr. Humes, on page 4, on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound measuring 15 by 6 mm. which on the smaller size is, of course, less than 6.5 mm.?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What would be the explanation for that variation?

Commander HUMES. This is in the scalp, sir, and I believe that this is explainable on the elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin, sir. It is not infrequent in missile wounds of this type that the measured wound is slightly smaller than the caliber of the missile that traversed it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed, now then to the other major wound of entry which you have already noted and described?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Its point of origin, where it hit the President.

Commander HUMES. I--our previously submitted report, which is Commission No. 387, identified a wound in the low posterior neck of the President.

The size of this wound was 4 by 7 mm., with the long axis being in accordance with the long axis of the body, 44 mm. wide, in other words, 7 mm. long.

We attempted to locate such wounds in soft tissue by making reference to bony structures which do not move and are, therefore, good reference points for this type of investigation.

We then ascertained, we chose the two bony points of reference--we chose to locate this wound, where the mastoid process, which is just behind the ear, the top of the mastoid process, and the acromion which is the tip of the shoulder joint. We ascertained physical measurement at the time of autopsy that this wound was 14 cm. from the tip of the mastoid process and 14 cm. from the acromion was its central point--

Mr. SPECTER. That is the right acromion?

Commander HUMES. The tip of the right acromion, yes, sir, and that is why we have depicted it in figure 385 in this location.

This wound appeared physically quite similar to the wound which we have described before in 388 "A," with the exception that its long axis was shorter than the long axis of the wound described above. When the tissues beneath this wound were inspected, there was a defect corresponding with the skin defect in the fascia overlying the musculature of the low neck and upper back.

I mentioned previously that X-rays were made of the entire body of the late President. Of course, and here I must say that as I describe something to you, I might have done it before or after in the description but for the sake of understanding, we examined carefully the bony structures in this vicinity as well as the X-rays, to see if there was any evidence of fracture or of deposition of metallic fragments in the depths of this wound, and we saw no such evidence, that is no fracture of the bones of the shoulder girdle, or of the vertical column, and no metallic fragments were detectable by X-ray examination.

Attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Doctor?

Commander HUMES. Well, the defect in the fascia was quite similar, which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was quite similar to this. We were unable, however, to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point.

Now, to explain the situation in the President's neck, I think it will be necessary for me to refer back to Exhibit 385, I believe the number is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please do, that is 385.

Commander HUMES. Now, as the President's body was viewed from anteriorly in the autopsy room, and saying nothing for the moment about the missile, there was a recent surgical defect in the low anterior neck, which measured some 7 or 8 cm. in length or let's say a recent wound was present in this area.

This wound was through the skin, through the subcutaneous tissues and into the larynx. Or rather into the trachea of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. To digress chronologically----

Commander HUMES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to discuss that wound on the front side of the President with Dr. Malcolm Perry of Parkland Hospital in Dallas?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did. I had the impression from seeing the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to give them a free airway.

To ascertain that point, I called on the telephone Dr. Malcolm Perry and discussed with him the situation of the President's neck when he first examined the President, and asked him had he in fact done a tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because I was somewhat certain he had.

He said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the tracheotomy incision.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you have that conversation with him, Dr. Humes?

Commander HUMES. I had that conversation early on Saturday morning, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On Saturday morning, November 23d?

Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had occasion since to examine the report of Parkland Hospital which I made available to you?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to note this as Commission Exhibit No. 392, and subject to later technical proof, to have it admitted into evidence at this time for the purpose of having the doctor comment about it.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be so marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 392, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination of the Parkland Hospital records disclose with respect to this wound on the front side of the President's body?

Commander HUMES. The examination of this record from Parkland Hospital revealed that Doctor Perry had observed this wound as had other physicians in attendance upon the President, and actually before a tracheotomy was performed surgically, an endotracheal tube was placed through the President's mouth and down his larynx and into his trachea which is the first step in giving satisfactory airway to a person injured in such fashion and unconscious.

The President was unconscious and it is most difficult to pass such a tube when the person is unconscious.

The person who performed that procedure, that is instilled the endotracheal tube noted that there was a wound of the trachea below the larynx, which corresponded in essence with the wound of the skin which they had observed from the exterior.

Mr. SPECTER. How is that wound described, while you are mentioning the wound?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I think you will find that on the first page of the summary sheet, Dr. Humes.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. Thank you.

This report was written by doctor--or of the activities of Dr. James Carrico, Doctor Carrico in inserting the endotracheal tube noted a ragged wound of trachea immediately below the larynx.

The report, as I recall it, and I have not studied it in minute detail, would indicate to me that Doctor Perry realizing from Doctor Carrico's observation that there was a wound of the trachea would quite logically use the wound which he had observed as a point to enter the trachea since the trachea was almost damaged, that would be a logical place in which to put his incision.

In speaking of that wound in the neck, Doctor Perry told me that before he enlarged it to make the tracheotomy wound it was a "few millimeters in diameter."

Of course by the time we saw it, as my associates and as you have heard, it was considerably larger and no longer at all obvious as a missile wound.

The report states, and Doctor Perry told me in telephone conversation that there was bubbling of air and blood in the vicinity of this wound when he made the tracheotomy. This caused him to believe that perhaps there had been a violation of one of the--one or other of the pleural cavities by a missile. He, therefore, asked one of his associates, and the record is to me somewhat confused as to which of his associates, he asked one of his associates to put in a chest tube. This is a maneuver which is, was quite logical under the circumstances, and which would, if a tube that were placed through all layers of the wall of the chest, and the chest cavity had been violated one could remove air that had gotten in there and greatly assist respiration.

So when we examined the President in addition to the large wound which we found in conversation with Doctor Perry was the tracheotomy wound, there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest.

Mr. DULLES. These are apparently exit wounds?

Commander HUMES. Sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised wounds on either side of the chest, and I will give them in somewhat greater detail.

These wounds were bilateral, they were situated on the anterior chest wall in the nipple line, and each were 2 cm. long in the transverse axis. The one on the right was situated 11 cm. above the nipple--the one on the left was situated 11 cm. on the nipple, and the one on the right was 8 cm. above the nipple. Their intention was to incise through the President's chest to place tubes into his chest.

We examined those wounds very carefully, and found that they, however, did not enter the chest cavity. They only went through the skin.

I presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious that the President had died, and they didn't pursue this.

To complete the examination of the area of the neck and the chest, I will do that together, we made the customary incision which we use in a routine postmortem examination which is a Y-shaped incision from the shoulders over the lower portion of the breastbone and over to the opposite shoulder and reflected the skin and tissues from the anterior portion of the chest.

We examined in the region of this incised surgical wound which was the tracheotomy wound and we saw that there was some bruising of the muscles of the neck in the depths of this wound as well as laceration or defect in the trachea.

At this point, of course, I am unable to say how much of the defect in the trachea was made by the knife of the surgeon, and how much of the defect was made by the missile wound. That would have to be ascertained from the surgeon who actually did the tracheotomy.

There was, however, some ecchymosis or contusion, of the muscles of the right anterior neck inferiorly, without, however, any disruption of the muscles or any significant tearing of the muscles.

The muscles in this area of the body run roughly, as you see as he depicted them here. We have removed some of them for a point I will make in a moment, but it is our opinion that the missile traversed the neck and slid between these muscles and other vital structures with a course in the neck such as the carotid artery, the jugular vein and other structures because there was no massive hemorrhage or other massive injury in this portion of the neck.

In attempting to relate findings within the President's body to this wound which we had observed low in his neck, we then opened his chest cavity, and we very carefully examined the lining of his chest cavity and both of his lungs. We found that there was, in fact, no defect in the pleural lining of the President's chest.

It was completely intact.

However, over the apex of the right pleural cavity, and the pleura now has two layers. It has a parietal or a layer which lines the chest cavity and it has a visceral layer which is intimately in association with the lung.

As depicted in figure 385, in the apex of the right pleural cavity there was a bruise or contusion or ecchmymosis of the parietal pleura as well as a bruise of the upper portion, the most apical portion of the right lung.

It, therefore, was our opinion that the missile while not penetrating physically the pleural cavity, as it passed that point bruised either the missile itself, or the force of its passage through the tissues, bruised both the parietal and the visceral pleura.

The area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex down towards the substance of the lung.

Once again Kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the interior of the President's chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark the point on Exhibit 385, the one on the rear of the President as point "C" and the one on the front of the President as point "D" so we can discuss those, Dr. Humes?

Now, what conclusion did you reach, if any, as to whether point "C" was the point of entry or exit?

Commander HUMES. We reached the conclusion that point "C" was a point of entry.

Mr. SPECTER. What characteristics of that wound led you to that conclusion?

Commander HUMES. The characteristics here were basically similar to the characteristics above, lacking one very valuable clue or piece of evidence rather than clue, because it is more truly a piece of evidence in the skull. The skull as I mentioned before had the bone with the characteristic defect made as a missile traverses bone.

This missile, to the best of our ability to ascertain, struck no bone protuberances, no bony prominences, no bones as it traversed the President's body. But it was a sharply delineated wound. It was quite regular in its outline. It measured, as I mentioned, 7 by 4 mm. Its margins were similar in all respects when viewed with the naked eye to the wound in the skull, which we feel incontrovertibly was a wound of entrance.

The defect in the fascia which is that layer of connective tissue over the muscle just beneath the wound corresponded virtually exactly to the defect in the skin.

And for these reasons we felt that this was a wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you search the body to determine if there was any bullet inside the body?

Commander HUMES. Before the arrival of Colonel Finck we had made X-rays of the head, neck and torso of the President, and the upper portions of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. At Colonel Finck's suggestion, we then completed the X-ray examination by X-raying the President's body in toto, and those X-rays are available.

Mr. SPECTER. What did those X-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the President's body?

Commander HUMES. They showed no evidence of a missile in the President's body at any point. And these were examined by ourselves and by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor.

Mr. SPECTER. What conclusion, if any, did you reach as to whether point "D" on 385 was the point of entrance or exit?

Commander HUMES. We concluded that this missile depicted in 385 "C" which entered the President's body traversed the President's body and made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland Hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the description "ragged wound" which is found in the Parkland report shed any light in and of itself as to whether point "D" is an exit or entry wound?

Commander HUMES. I believe, sir, that that statement goes on, ragged wound in the trachea. I don't believe that refers to the skin. And you might say that it is a ragged wound is more likely to be a wound of exit.

However, the trachea has little cartilaginous rings which have a tendency, which would be disrupted by this, and most wounds of the trachea unless very cleverly incised would perhaps appear slightly ragged.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the angle, if any, that you observed on the path of the bullet, as you outlined it?

Commander HUMES. The angle which we observed in measuring, in comparing the point of entrance, our point of entrance labeled "C" on 385 and "D" point of exit is one that the point of exit is below the point of entrance compared with the vertical.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which has been identified for you as being that worn by the President on the day of the assassination?

Commander HUMES. Yes; yesterday, just shortly before the Commission hearing today was begun, Mr. Chief Justice, we had opportunity for the first time to examine the clothing worn by the late President.

In private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late President.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would like to have identified for the record three articles on which I have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and at this time move for their admission into evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The articles of clothing referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 393, 394 and 395 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat?

Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.

Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does the one which you have described as the entry of the bullet go all the way through?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes through both layers.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me--it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course?

Commander HUMES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Through the inner side as it went through the outer side?

Commander HUMES. No, in an irregular fashion.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take Commission Exhibit 394 and describe what that is, first of all, please?

Commander HUMES. This is the shirt, blood-stained shirt, purportedly worn by the President on the day of his assassination. When viewed from behind at a point which corresponds essentially with the point of defect on the jacket, one sees an irregularly oval defect.

When viewed anteriorly, with the top button buttoned, two additional defects are seen. Of course, with the shirt buttoned, the fly front of the shirt causes two layers of cloth to be present in this location, and that there is a defect in the inner layer of cloth and a corresponding defect in the outer layer of the cloth.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any observable indication from the fibers on the front side of the shirt to indicate in which direction a missile might have passed through those two tears?

Commander HUMES. From an examination of these defects at this point, it would appear that the missile traversed these two layers from within to the exterior.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be accurate to state that the hole in the back of the shirt is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the shirt?

Commander HUMES. That is approximately correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how, if at all, do the holes in the shirt and coat conform to the wound of entrance which you described as point "C" on Commission Exhibit 385?

Commander HUMES. We believe that they conform quite well. When viewing--first of all, the wounds or the defects in 393 and 394 coincide virtually exactly with one another.

They give the appearance when viewed separately and not as part of the clothing of a clothed person as being perhaps, somewhat lower on the Exhibits 393 and 394 than we have depicted them in Exhibit No. 385. We believe there are two reasons for this.

385 is a schematic representation, and the photographs would be more accurate as to the precise location, but more particularly the way in which these defects would conform with such a defect on the torso would depend on the girth of the shoulders and configuration of the base of the neck of the individual, and the relative position of the shirt and coat to the tissues of the body at the time of the impact of the missile.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the muscular status of the President, what was it?

Commander HUMES. The President was extremely well-developed, an extremely well-developed, muscular young man with a very well-developed set of muscles in his thoraco and shoulder girdle.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect would that have on the positioning of the shirt and coat with respect to the position of the neck in and about the seam?

Commander HUMES. I believe this would have a tendency to push the portions of the coat which show the defects here somewhat higher on the back of the President than on a man of less muscular development.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would like to mark for identification Exhibit 396, which later proof will show is a picture of President Kennedy shortly before the first bullet struck him, and ask the doctor to take a look at that.

Will you describe, Doctor Humes, the position of President Kennedy's right hand in that picture?

Commander HUMES. Yes. This exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 396, allegedly taken just prior to the wounding of the late President, shows him with his hand raised, his elbow bent, apparently in saluting the crowd. I believe that this action----

Mr. SPECTER. Which hand was that?

Commander HUMES. This was his right hand, sir. I believe that this action would further accentuate the elevation of the coat and the shirt with respect to the back of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Now. Doctor Humes, will you take Commission Exhibit No. 395----

Mr. McCLOY. Before you go, may I ask a question? In your examination of the shirt, I just want to get it in the record, from your examination of the shirt, there is no defect in the collar of the shirt which coincides with the defect in the back of the President's coat, am I correct?

Commander HUMES. You are correct, sir. There is no such defect.

Mr. SPECTER. As to Commission Exhibit 395, Dr. Humes, will you identify what that is, please?

Commander HUMES. We had an opportunity to examine this exhibit before the Commission met today, sir. This is Commission Exhibit No. 395, and is the neck tie purportedly worn, purportedly to have been worn, by the late President on the day of his assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. What defect, if any, is noted on the tie which would correspond with the path of a missile apparently passing through the folds of the shirt which you have already described?

Commander HUMES. This tie is one of those--this tie is still in its knotted state, as we examine it at this time. The portion of the tie around the neck has been severed apparently with scissors or other sharp instrument accounting for the loop about the neck.

The tie is tied in four-in-hand fashion but somewhat askew from the way a person would normally tie a four-in-hand knot.

Situated on the left anterior aspect of this knotted portion of the tie at a point approximately corresponding with the defects noted previously in the two layers of the shirt is a superficial tear of the outer layer only of the fabric of this tie which, I believe, could have been caused by a glancing blow to this portion of the tie by a missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move at this time for the admission into evidence of Exhibits 393 through Exhibit 396, the three articles of clothing and the photograph which we have just used.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Exhibits Nos. 393 through 396 were received in evidence and may be found in the Commission files.)

Mr. McCLOY. Commander, did you say left or right?

Commander HUMES. No, sir. In fact, the way this bow is tied now it would appear to be on the left of this tie, but it is kind of twisted out of shape.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. It is twisted. It is not too clear.

Commander HUMES. It is not too clear, it is not clear how that might have been in position with the shirt, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your finger?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And at or about that time when you were trying to ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. SPECTER. And in that posture of your examination, having just learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point "C" on Exhibit 385?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned.

I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher.

Mr. SPECTER. And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?

Commander HUMES. Yes; in essence we have. When examining the wounds in the base of the President's neck anteriorly, the region of the tracheotomy performed at Parkland Hospital, we noted, and we noted in our record, some contusion and bruising of the muscles of the neck of the President. We noted that at the time of the postmortem examination.

Now, we also made note of the types of wounds which I mentioned to you before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by the doctors there to place chest tubes. They also made other wounds, one on the left arm, and a wound on the ankle of the President with the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope of replacing the blood which the President had lost from his extensive wounds.

Those wounds showed no evidence of bruising or contusion or physical violence, which made us reach the conclusion that they were performed during the agonal moments of the late president, and when the circulation was, in essence, very seriously embarrassed, if not nonfunctional. So that these wounds, the wound of the chest and the wound of the arm and of the ankle were performed about the same time as the tracheotomy wound because only a very few moments of time elapsed when all this was going on.

So, therefore, we reached the conclusion that the damage to these muscles on the anterior neck just below this wound were received at approximately the same time that the wound here on the top of the pleural cavity was, while the President still lived and while his heart and lungs were operating in such a fashion to permit him to have a bruise in the vicinity, because that he did have in these strap muscles in the neck, but he didn't have in the areas of the other incisions that were made at Parkland Hospital. So we feel that, had this missile not made its path in that fashion, the wound made by Doctor Perry in the neck would not have been able to produce, wouldn't have been able to produce, these contusions of the musculature of the neck.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question about the missile, I am a little bit--the bullet, I am a little bit--confused. It was found on the stretcher. Did the President's body remain on the stretcher while it was in the hospital?

Commander HUMES. Of that point I have no knowledge. The only----

Mr. DULLES. Why would it--would this operating have anything to do with the bullet being on the stretcher unless the President's body remained on the stretcher after he was taken into the hospital; is that possible?

Commander HUMES. It is quite possible, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Otherwise it seems to me the bullet would have to have been ejected from the body before he was taken or put on the bed in the hospital.

Commander HUMES. Right, sir. I, of course, was not there. I don't know how he was handled in the hospital, in what conveyance. I do know he was on his back during the period of his stay in the hospital; Doctor Perry told me that.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; and wasn't turned over.

Commander HUMES. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. So he might have been on the stretcher the whole time, is that your view?

The CHAIRMAN. He said he had no view. He wasn't there, he doesn't know anything about it.

Mr. DULLES. Yes. I wonder if there is other evidence of this.

Mr. SPECTER. There has been other evidence, Mr. Dulles. If I may say at this point, we shall produce later, subject to sequential proof, evidence that the stretcher on which this bullet was found was the stretcher of Governor Connally. We have a sequence of events on the transmission of that stretcher which ties that down reasonably closely, so that on the night of the autopsy itself, as the information I have been developing indicates, the thought preliminarily was that was from President Kennedy's stretcher, and that is what led to the hypothesis which we have been exploring about, but which has since been rejected. But at any rate the evidence will show that it was from Governor Connally's stretcher that the bullet was found.

Mr. DULLES. So this bullet is still missing?

Mr. SPECTER. That is the subject of some theories I am about to get into. That is an elusive subject, but Dr. Humes has some views on it, and we might just as well go into those now.

Mr. McCLOY. Before he gets into that, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Surely, go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. Quite apart from the President's clothing, now directing your attention to the flight of the bullet, quite apart from the evidence given by the President's clothing, you, I believe, indicated that the flight of the bullet was from the back, from above and behind. It took roughly the line which is shown on your Exhibit 385.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. I am not clear what induced you to come to that conclusion if you couldn't find the actual exit wound by reason of the tracheotomy.

Commander HUMES. The report which we have submitted, sir, represents our thinking within the 24-48 hours of the death of the President, all facts taken into account of the situation.

The wound in the anterior portion of the lower neck is physically lower than the point of entrance posteriorly, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That is what I wanted to bring out.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this: In spite of the incision made by the tracheotomy, was there any evidence left of the exit aperture?

Commander HUMES. Unfortunately not that we could ascertain, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. I see.

Mr. DULLES. There is no evidence in the coat or the shirt of an exit through the coat or shirt.

Commander HUMES. There is no exit through the coat, sir. But these two, in the shirt, of course--excuse me, sir--there is. The entrance by our calculations----

Mr. DULLES. The entrance I know.

Commander HUMES. Posteriorly.

Mr. DULLES. What about the exit?

Commander HUMES. The exit wounds are just below.

Mr. DULLES. But there was no coat to exit through.

Commander HUMES. No; anteriorly the coat was quite open.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir, Senator.

Senator COOPER. Assuming that we draw a straight line from Point "C" which you have described as a possible point of entry of the missile, to Point "D" where you saw an incision of the tracheotomy----

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What would be the relation of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac to such a line?

Commander HUMES. It would be exactly in line with such a line, sir, exactly.

Senator COOPER. What was the character of the bruise that you saw there?

Commander HUMES. The bruise here, photographs are far superior to my humble verbal description, but if I let my hand in cup shaped fashion represent the apical parietal pleura, it was an area approximately 5 cm. in greatest diameter of purplish blue discoloration of the parietal pleura. Corresponding exactly with it, with the lung sitting below it, was a roughly pyramid-shaped bruise with its base toward the surface of the upper portion of the lung, and the apex down into the lung tissue, and the whole thing measured about 5 cm., which is a little--2 inches in extent, sir.

Senator COOPER. What would be the--can you describe the covering around the apex of the pleural sac, the nature of its protection. My point is to get your opinion as to whether some other factor, some factor other than the missile could have caused this bruise which you saw.

Commander HUMES. A couple of ways we might do this, sir. One with regard to temporal, it was quite fresh. When examined under the microscope, the lung in this area had recent hemorrhaging in it. The red blood cells were well-preserved, as they would be if it happened quite recently before death, as was the red blood cells where they had gotten out into the lung tissue near there.

The discoloration was essentially of the same character as the discoloration in the muscles adjacent thereto, which would roughly again place it temporally in approximately the same time since bruises change color as time goes by, and these appeared quite fresh.

This is with regard to time--I don't know whether that is the right parameter in which you wished to study it, Senator.

Senator COOPER. My question really went to this point: Considering the location of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac----

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. And of the tissue or muscles around it, was there any other factor which you could think of that might have caused that bruise other than the passage of a missile?

Commander HUMES. It was so well localized that I truthfully, sir, can't think of any other way.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you one question which, perhaps, the answer is quite obvious. If, contrary to the evidence that we have here, that anterior wound was the wound of entry, the shot must have come from below the President to have followed that path.

Commander HUMES. That course, that is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, can you compare the angles of declination on 385, point "C" to "D", with 388 "A" to "B"?

Commander HUMES. You will note, and again I must apologize for the schematic nature of these diagrams drawn to a certain extent from memory and to a certain extent from the written record, it would appear that the angle of declination is somewhat sharper in the head wound, 388, than it is in 385.

The reason for this, we feel, by the pattern of the entrance wound at 388 "A" causes us to feel that the President's head was bent forward, and we feel this accounts for the difference in the angle, plus undoubtedly the wounds were not received absolutely simultaneously, so that the vehicle in which the President was traveling moved during this period of time, which would account for a difference in the line of flight, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the slight differences which are notable by observing those two exhibits, are they roughly comparable to the angle of decline?

Commander HUMES. I believe them to be roughly comparable, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you state for the record an approximation of the angle of decline?

Commander HUMES. Mathematics is not my forte. Approximately 45 degrees from the horizontal.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you elaborate somewhat, Doctor Humes, on why the angle would change by virtue of a tilting of the head of the President since the basis of the computation of angle is with respect to the ground?

Commander HUMES. I find the question a little difficult of answering right off, forgive me, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I will try to rephrase it. Stated more simply, why would the tilting of the President's head affect the angle of the decline? You stated that was----

Commander HUMES. The angle that I am making an observation most about is the angle made that we envisioned having been made by the impingement of the bullet in its flight at the point of entry. This angle we see by the difference of the measurement of the two wounds.

Therefore, this is--we have several angles we are talking about here, unfortunately, this is--the angle of which we speak in this location, "A" to "B", and it is difficult.

I have to retract. Since we feel from their physical configurations, wounds 385 "C" and 388 "A" are entrance wounds, if there wasn't some significant change in the angulation of the President's head with respect to the line of flight from these missiles, the physical measurements of 385 "C" and this 388 "A" should be similar. They aren't, in fact, dissimilar in that there is a greater angulation in 388 "A". Therefore, there has to be either a change in the position of the vehicle in which the President is riding with respect to the horizontal or a change in the situation of the President's head. I believe that the exhibits submitted earlier, the photograph----

Mr. SPECTER. I believe the ones were given to you so far--excuse me, you are right, 389.

Commander HUMES. 389, in fact at this point shows the President's head in a slightly inclined forward position, and I am not enough aware of the geography of the ground over which the vehicle was traveling to know how much that would affect it.

Mr. SPECTER. If you were to be told that there was a distance traversed of approximately 150 feet from the time of Point "C" on 385 to Point "A" on 388, and you would assume the additional factor that there was a slight angle of decline on the street as well, would those factors, assuming them to be true, help in the explanation of the differences in the angles?

Commander HUMES. I think that they would make the figure as depicted in 388 quite understandably different from 385.

Mr. DULLES. Was it possible, in view of the condition of the brain to point with absolute accuracy to the point of exit there? I can see that the point of exit in 385 can be clearly determined. Is it equally possible to determine the point of exit in 388?

Commander HUMES. No, sir; it was not, other than through this large defect because when----

Mr. DULLES. Therefore, that angle might be somewhat different.

Commander HUMES. Might be somewhat different, sir. I think we made reference to that somewhat earlier. The fragments were so difficult to replace in their precise anatomic location----

Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought, but I wasn't sure.

Commander HUMES. That is correct.

Mr. McCLOY. I would like to ask a question in regard to 385 similar to that I asked as to 388. In your opinion, was the 385 wound lethal?

Commander HUMES. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. With the wound in 385, would it have affected the President's power of speech?

Commander HUMES. It could have, sir. The wound caused a defect in his trachea which would most usually have caused at least some defect in the proper phonation, sir.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. On the record.

Mr. SPECTER. In response to Mr. Dulles' question a moment ago, Doctor Humes, you commented that they did not turn him over at Parkland. Will you state for the record what the source of your information is on that?

Commander HUMES. Yes. This is a result of a personal telephone conversation between myself and Dr. Malcolm Perry early in the morning of Saturday, November 23.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time did Doctor Perry tell you specifically, Doctor Humes, that the Parkland doctors had not observed the wound in the President's back?

Commander HUMES. He told me that the President was on his back from the time he was brought into the hospital until the time he left it, and that at no time was he turned from his back by the doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. And at the time of your conversation with Doctor Perry did you tell Doctor Perry anything of your observations or conclusions?

Commander HUMES. No, sir; I did not.

(A short recess was taken.)

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. We will continue with the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, as to points of entry on the body of the late President, how many were there in total?

Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-C and 388-A.

Mr. SPECTER. And to points of exit, how many were there?

Commander HUMES. Two, sir, as depicted in 385-D and the vicinity of 388-B. I make the latter remark as was developed earlier, in that the size of the large defect in the skull was so great and the fragmentation was so complex that it was impossible to accurately pinpoint the exit of the missile in the head wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to that last factor, would the X-rays be of material assistance to you in pinpointing the specific locale of the exit?

Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir. The only path that the X-rays show in any detail are of the minor fragments which passed from point A to point B.

Mr. SPECTER. Now that you have finished your major descriptions of the wounds, can you be any more specific in telling us in what way the availability of the x-rays would assist in further specifying the nature of the wounds?

Commander HUMES. I do not believe, sir, that the availability of the X-rays would materially assist the Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the same question as to the pictures?

Commander HUMES. The pictures would show more accurately and in more detail the character of the wounds as depicted particularly in 385 and 386 and in 388-A. They would also perhaps give the Commissioners a better--better is not the best term, but a more graphic picture of the massive defect in 388.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back for a moment, Doctor Humes----

The CHAIRMAN. Before we get off that, may I ask you this, Commander: If we had the pictures here and you could look them over again and restate your opinion, would it cause you to change any of the testimony you have given here?

Commander HUMES. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Chief Justice, it would not.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McCloy.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask this question?

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not any photographs were taken in Dallas?

Commander HUMES. I have none, sir, no knowledge.

Mr. McCLOY. No knowledge that any were taken?

Representative FORD. May I ask what size are the pictures to which you refer?

Commander HUMES. We exposed both black and white and color negatives, Congressman. They were exposed in the morgue during the examination. They were not developed. The kodachrome negatives when developed would be 405. They were in film carriers or cassettes, as were the black and white. Of course they could be magnified.

Representative FORD. Have those been examined by personnel at Bethesda?

Commander HUMES. No, sir. We exposed these negatives; we turned them over. Here I must ask the counsel again for advice--to the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; it was the Secret Service.

Commander HUMES. They were turned over to the Secret Service in their cassettes unexposed, and I have not seen any of them since. This is the photographs. The X-rays were developed in our X-ray department on the spot that evening, because we had to see those right then as part of our examination, but the photographs were made for the record and for other purposes.

Representative FORD. But they had never been actually developed for viewing.

Commander HUMES. I do not know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, back to the angles for just a moment.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Hypothesize or assume, if you will, that other evidence will show that the wound inflicted on Commission Exhibit 385 at point C occurred while the President was riding in the rear seat of his automobile approximately 100 feet from a point of origin in a six-floor building nearby, and assume further that the wound inflicted in 388 at point A occurred when the President was approximately 250 feet away from the same point.

With those assumptions in mind, there would be somewhat different angles of declination going from C to D on 385 and from A to B on 388.

Commander HUMES. I would expect there would.

Mr. SPECTER. You have already testified earlier today that you were unable to pinpoint with precision angle A to B on 388 because of the reconstruction of the scalp.

Now my question to you, in that elongated fashion, is from what you know and what you have described, are the angles, as you have expressed them to be in your opinion, consistent with a situation where the two wounds were inflicted at the angles and at the distances just described to you?

Commander HUMES. I believe they are consistent. I would state that the path outlined on 388-A to B is to a certain extent conjectural for the reasons given before.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Doctor Humes, I hand you a group of documents which have been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 397 and ask you if you can identify what they are?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; these are various notes in long-hand, or copies rather, of various notes in long-hand made by myself, in part, during the performance of the examination of the late President, and in part after the examination when I was preparing to have a typewritten report made.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there also included there some notes that you made while you talked to Doctor Perry on the telephone?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any notes which you made at any time which are not included in this group of notes?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; there are.

Mr. SPECTER. And what do those consist of?

Commander HUMES. In privacy of my own home, early in the morning of Sunday, November 24th, I made a draft of this report which I later revised, and of which this represents the revision. That draft I personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that the Exhibit No. 397 is the identical document which has been previously identified as Commission No. 371 for our internal purposes.

Is the first sheet then in that group the notes you made when you talked to Doctor Perry?

Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And do the next 15 sheets represent the rough draft which was later copied into the autopsy report which has been heretofore identified with an exhibit number?

Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what do the next two sheets represent?

Commander HUMES. The next two sheets are the notes actually made in the room in which the examination was taking place. I notice now that the handwriting in some instances is not my own, and it is either that of Commander Boswell or Colonel Finck.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that writing made at the same time that the autopsy report was undertaken; that is, did you review all of the markings on those papers and note them to be present when you completed the autopsy report?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir. From the time of the completion of this examination until the submission of the written report following its preparation, all of the papers pertinent to this case were in my personal custody.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described all of the documents which were present in that 397, Exhibit No. 397?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; with the exception of the certification to the fact that I, in fact, detailed them in my custody, and a certification that I had destroyed certain preliminary draft notes.

Mr. SPECTER. And these represent all the notes except those you have already described which you destroyed?

Commander HUMES. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, just one point on the notes themselves. Page 14 of your rough draft, Doctor Humes, as to the point of origin, the notes show that there was a revision between your first draft and your final report.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you first of all read into the record the final conclusion reflected in your final report.

Commander HUMES. I would rather read it from the final report. The final report reads:

"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above the level of the deceased."

Mr. SPECTER. And what did the first draft of that sentence as shown on page 14 of your rough draft state?

Commander HUMES. It stated as follows:

"The projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above a horizontal line to the vertical position of the body at the moment of impact."

Mr. SPECTER. Now would you state the reason for making that modification between draft and final report, please?

Commander HUMES. This examination, as I have indicated, was performed by myself with my two associates. The notes which we have just admitted as an exhibit are in my own hand and are my opinion, was my opinion at that time, as to the best way to present the facts which we had gleaned during this period.

Before submitting it to the typist, I went over this with great care with my two associates. One or the other of them raised the point that perhaps this sentence would state more than what was absolutely fact based upon our observations, pointing out that we did not know precisely at that time in what position the body of the President was when the missiles struck, and that therefore we should be somewhat less specific and somewhat more circumspect than the way we stated it. When I considered this suggestion, I agreed that it would be better to change it as noted, and accordingly, I did so.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move now for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 397.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The documents, previously marked Exhibit No. 397 for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question about the notes? The notes that you made contemporaneously with your examination, you said you put those down and then you put some in later. How much later were the notes, within the best of your recollection of the final notes made, not the final report, but the final notes that you made in your own handwriting?

Commander HUMES. The examination was concluded approximately at 11 o'clock on the night of November 22. The final changes in the notes prior to the typing of the report were made, and I will have to give you the time because whatever time Mr. Oswald was shot, that is about when I finished. I was working in an office, and someone had a television on and came in and told me that Mr. Oswald had been shot, and that was around noon on Sunday, November 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I have now marked another photograph as the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit 398. May I say to the Commission that this is a photograph which, subject to later proof, will show it to be taken immediately after the President was struck by the first bullet.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for identification.)

May I move for its admission into evidence at this time for this purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The photograph, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 398 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Looking at Commission Exhibit 398, Doctor Humes, with that as a background, have you had an opportunity to review the medical reports on Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital in Commission Exhibit 392?

Commander HUMES. I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you noted the wounds which he sustained on his right wrist, that is, Governor Connally's right wrist?

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir; I have noted the report of it in these records.

Mr. SPECTER. What does the report show as to those wounds on the right wrist?

Commander HUMES. The report shows a wound of entrance on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist. Let's get the precise point here. The wound of entry is described as on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist above the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and the shaft. It was approximately two centimeters in length and rather oblique, with the loss of tissue, and some considerable contusions at the margins. There was a wound of exit along the volar surface of the wrist about two centimeters above the flexion crease of the wrist in the midline.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor Connally.

I move for its admission into evidence at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The article, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 399 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton background.

Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388?

Commander HUMES. I do not believe so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Commander HUMES. I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Commander HUMES. The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments.

Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found:

"Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."

The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations.

Mr. SPECTER. What wounds did Governor Connally sustain in his chest area, based upon the records of Parkland Hospital, which you have examined, Doctor Humes?

Commander HUMES. Governor Connally received in his chest a wound of entrance just--this is again from 392--"just lateral to the right scapula close to the axilla which had passed through the lattisimus dorsi muscle, shattered approximately ten centimeters of a lateral and anterior portion of the right fifth rib, and emerged below the right nipple anterially."

These were the wounds of the chest of Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Now assuming that there were only three missiles fired, and bearing in mind the positions of President Kennedy and Governor Connally from the photograph marked Commission Exhibit 398, do you have an opinion as to the source of the missiles which inflicted the wound on President Kennedy marked 385-C to D, and the wound in Governor Connally's chest which you have just referred to?

Commander HUMES. Yes. I would preface this statement by the following: As I testified earlier in the afternoon, as much as we could ascertain from our X-rays and physical examinations, this missile struck no bony structures in traversing the body of the late President. Therefore, I believe it was moving at its exit from the President's body at only very slightly less than that velocity, so it was still traveling at great speed.

I believe in looking at Exhibit 398, which purports to be at approximately the time the President was struck, I see that Governor Connally is sitting directly in front of the late President, and suggest the possibility that this missile, having traversed the low neck of the late President, in fact traversed the chest of Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the velocity, if any, or would there be an appreciable diminution of the velocity of the projectile on passing through the portions of President Kennedy's body which you have described?

Commander HUMES. I would have to defer to my associate, Colonel Finck, for an opinion about this.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. As to any damage to the rib which you described Governor Connally sustained, would that impact or trauma be consistent with the markings which are shown on Exhibit 399?

Commander HUMES. I think it quite possible. Here I think if this point were to be explored further, a most valuable piece of evidence would be an X-ray of the chest of Governor Connally, because I believe that this missile could have struck the rib a glancing blow.

The rib is a rather rigid structure, and the missile would not have to strike it directly to cause the fracture that was described, and the fracture is not very clearly described to me, and if an X-ray, for instance, showed no metallic fragments in the chest of the Governor, I would think it quite likely that this was the missile that had traversed his chest, because I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that missile have traversed Governor Connally's chest without having him know it immediately or instantaneously?

Commander HUMES. I believe so. I have heard reports, and have been told by my professional associates of any number of instances where people received penetrating wounds in various portions of the body and have only the sensation of a slight discomfort or slight slap or some other minor difficulty from such a missile wound. I am sure he would be aware that something happened to him, but that he was shot, I am not certain.

Representative FORD. Would that have been the potential reaction of the President when first hit, as shown in 385?

Commander HUMES. It could very easily be one of some type of an injury--I mean the awareness that he had been struck by a missile, I don't know, but people have been drilled through with a missile and didn't know it.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?

Commander HUMES. I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile.

Representative FORD. The missile identified as Exhibit 399.

Commander HUMES. 399, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Humes, would you have an opinion as to whether the wounds on Governor Connally's wrist and thigh were caused by the same bullet?

Commander HUMES. In reading the description of the fragmentation that was found, fragments were found in the wrist, one fragment was found imbedded in his femur, I would feel it was definitely within the realm of possibility that the same missile could have produced both of those injuries.

Mr. SPECTER. Those are all my questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? If not, thank you very much, Commander. You have been very helpful to us, indeed.

Commander HUMES. Thank you very much, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Commander Boswell.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one more question?

The CHAIRMAN. Of course you may.

Mr. McCLOY. Earlier in the afternoon we had taken out of cellophane bags here the clothing of the President.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And amongst them was the shirt.

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of the wounds, of the defects, I guess you would call it in the shirt----

Commander HUMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Would you from examining the tissues of that shirt have any conclusions as to how that wound, how that missile passed through the shirt? Was it from the rear to the front, or from the front to the rear?

Commander HUMES. As I examined that exhibit today, sir, the threads are fragmented and distorted in such a fashion which would indicate to me that the missile passed through the shirt from the rear to the front.

TESTIMONY OF COMDR. J. THORNTON BOSWELL, MEDICAL CORPS, U.S. NAVY

The CHAIRMAN. Commander Boswell, will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Commander BOSWELL. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Commander BOSWELL. J. Thornton Boswell, Commander, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession?

Commander BOSWELL. Physician.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you obtain your medical degree, please?

Commander BOSWELL. At the College of Medicine, Ohio State University.

Mr. SPECTER. And what experience have you had in your professional line subsequent to obtaining that degree?

Commander BOSWELL. I interned in the Navy and took my pathology training at St. Albans Naval Hospital in New York. I was certified by the American Board of Pathology in both clinical and pathological anatomy in 1957 and 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your duty assignment at the present time?

Commander BOSWELL. I am the Chief of Pathology at the National Naval Medical School.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late President Kennedy?

Commander BOSWELL. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you assist Doctor Humes at that time?

Commander BOSWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been present here today during the entire course of Doctor Humes' testimony?

Commander BOSWELL. I have, sir; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add by way of elaboration or modification to that which Doctor Humes has testified?

Commander BOSWELL. None, I believe. Doctor Humes has stated essentially what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our conclusions.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy report which has been previously identified as a Commission Exhibit?

Commander BOSWELL. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. All the facts set forth therein are correct in accordance with your analysis and evaluation of the situation?

Commander BOSWELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, as to the points of entry and points of exit which have been testified to by Doctor Humes, do his views express yours as well?

Commander BOSWELL. They do, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Boswell, would you state for the record what your conclusion was as to the cause of death of President Kennedy?

Commander BOSWELL. The brain injury was the cause of death.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the absence of brain injury, what, in your view, would have been the future status of President Kennedy's mortality, if he had only sustained the wound inflicted in 385?

Commander BOSWELL. I believe it would have been essentially an uneventful recovery. It could have been easily repaired, and I think it would have been of little consequence.

Mr. SPECTER. Those are my only questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Does anyone have any questions of the Commander? If not, Commander, thank you very much, indeed. You have been very helpful to us.

Mr. SPECTER. Colonel Finck.

TESTIMONY OF LT. COL. PIERRE A. FINCK, PHYSICIAN, U. S. ARMY

The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Finck.

Colonel, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Colonel FINCK. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please, Colonel?

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Colonel FINCK. My first name is Pierre. My middle initial is "A". My last name is Finck.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Colonel FINCK. I am a physician.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed?

Colonel FINCK. By the United States Army.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your rank?

Colonel FINCK. I am a lieutenant colonel in the Medical Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you obtain your medical degree?

Colonel FINCK. At the University of Geneva Medical School in Switzerland.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what year did you obtain that degree?

Colonel FINCK. In 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been in the medical profession subsequent to obtaining that degree?

Colonel FINCK. I had 4 years of training in pathology after my internship, 2 years, including 2 years of pathology at the University Institute of Pathology in Geneva, Switzerland, and 2 years at the University of Tennessee Institute of Pathology in Memphis, Tenn.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been in the United States Army?

Colonel FINCK. Since 1955.

Mr. SPECTER. And what have your duties consisted of in the Army?

Colonel FINCK. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any additional, special training or experience in missile wounds?

Colonel FINCK. For the past 3 years I was Chief of the Wound Ballistics Pathology Branch of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and in that capacity I reviewed personally all the cases forwarded to us by the Armed Forces, and some civilian cases from the United States and our forces overseas. The number of these cases amounts to approximately 400 cases. I was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds for this particular case, and also last year in February 1963, the Surgeon General of the Army sent me to Vietnam for a wound ballistics mission. I had to testify in a murder trial involving a 30/30 rifle in the first week of March this year, and I came back yesterday after one week in Panama where I had to testify. I was sent to Panama by the Secretary of the Army regarding the fatalities of the events of 9-10 in January of 1964.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been certified by the American Board of Pathology, Doctor Finck?

Colonel FINCK. I was certified in pathology anatomy by the American Board of Pathology in 1956, and by the same American Board of Pathology in the field of forensic pathology in 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly for the Commission what forensic pathology involves?

Colonel FINCK. Forensic pathology is the study with the naked eye and with the microscope of injuries, including missile wounds, trauma in general. In summary, it is the part of pathology in relation to the law, violent death being homicide, be it suicide, accidental or undetermined. It also includes unexplained deaths, sudden deaths, and poisoning.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late President Kennedy?

Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy report which has been previously marked and introduced into evidence here?

Colonel FINCK. Yes, I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to conduct any experiments on the effect of missile penetration of the brain reflected in the chart which you have brought with you here today?

Colonel FINCK. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the skull--let me phrase the question this way: What does the test which is depicted on the document before you relate to?

Colonel FINCK. It is based on my observations, not on experiments.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you pass that to me, sir, so that I may mark that as a Commission Exhibit, and then I will ask you to identify it, please?

Mr. Chief Justice, may I mark as Commission Exhibit No. 400 a document?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I will ask Doctor Finck to describe it for us, please.

Colonel FINCK. This is a scheme which I prepared before the 22d of November. It is a teaching scheme, but it applies to the case in discussion. It will be of help in understanding how I could identify the entrance and the exit by examination of bone. "A" represents the bony portion of the skull. "B" represents the cavity of the head, the cranial cavity. "C" represents the entrance and "D" represents the exit. The arrows indicate the missile path.

This scheme is based upon observation of through and through wounds of bone, and the same differences apply to a pane of glass. The surface struck first by the missile in relation to the surface struck next by the missile, this one, shows a smaller diameter, which means that if you look at the route of entrance in this case here, C, from the outside you will not see a crater. If you examine it from the inside, you will see a crater corresponding to the bevelling, coning, shelving, previously described by Commander Humes.

In the case we are discussing today, it was possible to have enough curvature and enough portion of the crater to identify positively the wound of entrance at the site of the bone.

Mr. SPECTER. Relating then your evaluation of the situation with respect to President Kennedy, and turning to Commission Exhibit No. 388, what is your opinion as to whether point A is a wound of entrance or exit?

Colonel FINCK. My opinion as regards Exhibit 388, letter A, is that this wound is the wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the characteristics of that wound which lead you to that conclusion?

Colonel FINCK. The characteristics were that seen from the inside of the skull, I could see a beveling in the bone, a beveling that could not be seen when the wound was seen from outside the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other individual characteristics that led you to conclude A was the wound of entrance?

Colonel FINCK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when the three pieces of scalp were reconstructed to form the major portion of the absent part of President Kennedy's skull which Doctor Humes described?

Colonel FINCK. I was present when several portions of bone were brought.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe, if anything, as to a reconstructed hole from those three portions of skull?

Colonel FINCK. May I refer to my scheme?

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

Colonel FINCK. For the sake of demonstration.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Colonel FINCK. At the level of the wound of exit, E, in my scheme, Commission Exhibit No. 400, when viewed from the inside of the skull, there was no crater, whereas when the wound is seen from the outside of the skull, there was beveling, cratering, or coning--this is possible to determine an exit even if only a portion of the bone is submitted, for the reason that if there was enough bone submitted, there is enough curvature to identify the inside and outside of the skull. Therefore the fragment, to give you an example, this portion at the level of the wound of exit can be oriented, and the outer surface of the skull and the inner surface of the skull may be identified due to the curvature.

And then you look at the direction of the beveling and you do see the beveling when looking from the outside and you can identify an exit wound. And that is what I did, and now I am referring to the actual case in discussion, Commission Exhibit 388.

Mr. SPECTER. That is B?

Colonel FINCK. Letter B. We will see portions of bone in this general area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of President Kennedy. I had enough curvature to identify outside of the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the specimen, and then I could determine the location of the beveling, and I could therefore say that B, Commission Exhibit 388, is a wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your observations and conclusions, was President Kennedy shot from the front, rear, side or what?

Colonel FINCK. President Kennedy was, in my opinion, shot from the rear. The bullet entered in the back of the head and went out on the right side of his skull, producing a large wound, the greatest dimension of which was approximately 13 centimeters.

Mr. SPECTER. And as to angle, was he shot from below, from level, from above, or what, in your opinion?

Colonel FINCK. In my opinion, the angle can be determined only approximately due to the fact that the wound of entrance is fairly small and could give enough precision in the determination of the path, but the dimension of the wound of exit, letter B of Exhibit 388, is so large that we can only give an approximate angle. In my opinion, the angle was within 45 degrees from the horizontal plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that to say that there was a 45-degree angle of declination from the point of origin to the point of impact, from the point of origin of the bullet where the bullet came from a gun until the point where it struck President Kennedy?

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you mean was he shot from above or below.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Colonel FINCK. I think I can only state, sir, that he was shot from above and behind.

Mr. SPECTER. At this time I move for admission into evidence Exhibit 400, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 400 for identification, and was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. As to Exhibit 385, Dr. Finck, was point C a point of entry or a point of exit, in your opinion?

Colonel FINCK. In my opinion point C of Commission's Exhibit 385 is a wound of entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for that conclusion?

Colonel FINCK. The basis for that conclusion is that this wound was relatively small with clean edges. It was not a jagged wound, and that is what we see in wound of entrance at a long range.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present here today and did you hear the entire testimony of Doctor Humes?

Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you concur in Dr. Humes' statements and opinions regarding the point of entry C, point of exit D, and general angle on the flight of the missile?

Colonel FINCK. I certainly do.

Mr. SPECTER. Then from what direction was President Kennedy shot on entry point C?

Colonel FINCK. From behind and above.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the bullets used dumdum bullets, in your opinion, Dr. Finck?

Colonel FINCK. In what wound, sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, start with the head wound, or the back wound, either one.

Colonel FINCK. In all the wounds considered, on the basis of the aspect of the wound of entrance, dumdum bullets were not used.

Mr. SPECTER. And what characteristics of dumdum bullets were absent, in your opinion--in your evaluation of these wounds?

Colonel FINCK. I would expect more jagged, more irregular and larger wounds of entrance than described in this case.

Representative FORD. With a dumdum bullet?

Colonel FINCK. With a dumdum bullet.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the question of likelihood of Governor Connally having been wounded in the back and chest with the same bullet which passed through President Kennedy in 385, what reduction would there be, if any, in the velocity, considering the relative positions of the two men in the automobile as reflected in photograph, Exhibit 398?

Colonel FINCK. Of course, to reach precise figures we would need experiments and similar circumstances with the same type ammunition at the same distance through two human cadavers, which I did not do.

On the basis that if we assume that this is one bullet going through President Kennedy's body and also through Governor Connally's body, the reduction of velocity would be of some extent after passing through President Kennedy's body, but not having hit bones, the reduction in velocity, after going through President Kennedy's body, would be minimal.

Mr. SPECTER. Would there be sufficient force then to inflict the wound which Dr. Humes described from the Parkland Hospital records as having been inflicted on Governor Connally's back and chest?

Colonel FINCK. There would be enough energy to go through the body of the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. In expressing your opinion on that subject, Doctor Finck, have you taken into account the assumptions on distance, that we are dealing here with a weapon that has a muzzle velocity in the neighborhood of slightly in excess of 2,000, and that the vehicle carrying these two individuals was approximately 150, about 150 feet away from the site of origin of the missile?

Colonel FINCK. At this range, a bullet of this velocity loses very little velocity, and keeps upon impact a large amount of kinetic energy.

Mr. SPECTER. You heard the whole of Doctor Humes' testimony, did you not?

Colonel FINCK. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything that you would like to add to what he said?

Colonel FINCK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or would you like to modify his testimony in any way?

Colonel FINCK. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you subscribe to the observations and procedures which he outlined during the course of his testimony?

Colonel FINCK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. As having been conducted on President Kennedy?

Colonel FINCK. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you share the opinions which he expressed in their entirety in the course of his testimony here today?

Colonel FINCK. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You might be seated, Colonel.

Mr. McCLOY. Just as truthful seated as standing.

Representative FORD. How many cases did you investigate to develop this theory shown by Commission Exhibit 400?

Colonel FINCK. Among the more than 400 cases I have reviewed, several of them--I cannot give you an exact figure, I do not tabulate them, but many of them had through and through wounds of the skull as well as of flat bones, as, for instance, the sternum, the bone we have in front of our chest, and this would apply also to a through and through wound of the sternum. I have cases like that.

There was a specific case in which I was able to identify the entrance at the level of the sternum on the same basis as the criteria I have given for the skull. Whenever a bullet goes through a flat bone, it will produce that beveling, that cratering, shelving, and that I have seen in numerous cases.

Representative FORD. Is this a generally accepted theory in the medical profession?

Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir; it is. Am I allowed to quote a standard textbook?

The CHAIRMAN. You may; yes sir.

Colonel FINCK. The textbook of legal medicine, pathology and toxicology by Gonzalez, Vance, Halpern and Umberger does not give a scheme like I have shown to you today, but describes similar criteria.

As you know, one of the authors of the book I mentioned is still chief medical examiner of New York City, with 20,000 medical-examiner cases a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor Finck, after the path C-D described in No. 385, would that be a straight line starting with the weapon itself, or was that line deviated in any way or altered when it passed through the body of President Kennedy?

Colonel FINCK. For practical purposes line C-D is a straight line with little or no deviation, the bullet not having hit bony structures.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Finck, have you had an opportunity to examine Commission's Exhibit 399?

Colonel FINCK. For the first time this afternoon, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And based upon your examination of that bullet, do you have an opinion as to whether in its current condition it could have passed through President Kennedy at point C-D in 385 and then inflicted the wound in the back and chest of Governor Connally?

Colonel FINCK. Yes; I do. This is a bullet showing marks indicating the bullet was fired. The second point is that there was practically no loss of this bullet. It kept its original caliber and dimensions. There was no evidence that any major portion of the jacket was lost, and I consider this as one bullet which possibly could have gone through the wounds you described.

Mr. SPECTER. And could that bullet possibly have gone through President Kennedy in 388?

Colonel FINCK. Through President Kennedy's head? 388?

Mr. SPECTER. And remained intact in the way you see it now?

Colonel FINCK. Definitely not.

Mr. SPECTER. And could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist?

Colonel FINCK. No; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the condition of Exhibit 399 consistent with the type of a wound which Doctor Humes described on Governor Connally's rib?

Colonel FINCK. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. I have a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. From your examination of Exhibit 399, can you identify the caliber of that bullet?

Colonel FINCK. The caliber of this bullet, if I could measure it, but I cannot touch it.

The CHAIRMAN. We can.

Colonel FINCK. I would say it is consistent with a 6.5 mm.

Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with the Mannlicher 6.5 rifle?

Colonel FINCK. I am familiar with the caliber 6.5. I can draw the calibers for you on the blackboard.

Mr. McCLOY. What is the initial velocity of a 6.5 mm. bullet of that character?

Colonel FINCK. Of the order of 2,000 feet per second.

Mr. McCLOY. And you say there would not be a substantial diminution of that velocity either at the point of impact or at the point of exit?

Colonel FINCK. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. One more question, Mr. Chief Justice.

On 388, point A to B, what is your view, Dr. Finck, as to whether or not that is represented by a straight line going back to the point of origin of the weapon?

Colonel FINCK. The difficulty in interpreting the path in line A-B of Commission's Exhibit 388 is that, one, there is, as stated before, a large wound of exit, and, two, there is a secondary path as indicated by the fragments recovered. So we can have an assumption and state that the general direction, the general path, the general angle of this missile was from behind and above, and that the bullet, markedly fragmented, went out of the President's head on the right side, but that a portion of this bullet which badly fragmented was recovered within the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. In view of the impact on the skull at point A, it is unlikely to be a straight line to B all the way back to the muzzle of the weapon as it is, say, in 385 C-D, all the way back to the muzzle of the gun.

Colonel FINCK. In C-D, Commission's Exhibit 385, due to the fact that there was no fragmentation, I can say that it is a straight line from behind and above, whereas here, due to the fragmentation and to the dual path, I can't give a precise angle, but I can say that the injury is consistent with a wound produced by one bullet producing many fragments.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you want to ask?

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go right ahead.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you examine any of the fragments which were removed from the President's skull?

Colonel FINCK. I only saw one fragment shown to me when I arrived at Bethesda, and it was an elongated black metallic fragment, and that is the only one I saw to my recollection. I was told that it had been removed from the brain of President Kennedy in the anterior portion of his head.

Mr. McCLOY. From that bullet, that fragment, could you determine, was it sufficiently large to determine from the ballistic evidence the caliber of the bullet?

Colonel FINCK. No, sir; for the reason that to determine the caliber you need the entire bullet, or at least an entire portion. You need a portion of the bullet showing the entire diameter, and I was not shown that. I was shown a fragment which represented a very small portion of the original bullet. Therefore, at that time I could not say anything on the possible original caliber.

Mr. McCLOY. You examined no fragment which did contain those characteristics?

Colonel FINCK. No, sir; I did not see any entire bullet or bullet showing the entire diameter.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. I believe you testified, Colonel, that you concurred in the previous testimony by Commander Humes and Commander Boswell, and that you were one of the co-authors of the autopsy. At any time during this process where you were conducting the autopsy, was there any disagreement between any one of you three, any difference of opinion as to anything involved in the autopsy?

Colonel FINCK. No, sir.

Representative FORD. There has been complete unanimity on what you saw, what you did, and what you have reported?

Colonel FINCK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper?

Senator COOPER. Colonel, I would like for you to look at Exhibit 388 and at the possible trajectory of the bullet which entered President Kennedy's head at A and then mark it as a possible point of exit by "out". You remember there was testimony about a portion of the bullet from point A to the place on the diagram marked "fragment" where a fragment was found. I would like to ask if it is possible that the trajectory of the bullet, from the point of origin, could have been A to this point marked "fragment" as well as from A to the place marked "out"?

Colonel FINCK. I don't think so, sir.

Senator COOPER. Why? Would you explain that answer?

Colonel FINCK. I would think that I would consider the midportion of this exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388, as the wound produced by most of the fragments and the major portions of the fragmenting bullet. This is only a small portion of it which makes me say that this is a secondary path.

Senator COOPER. What was the size of the fragment relative to the size of the missile of the 6.5 Mannlicher, fired from the 6.5 Mannlicher rifle?

Colonel FINCK. Approximately one-tenth, or even less.

Representative FORD. From your numerous case studies, is it typical for a bullet, for a missile in this circumstance as shown in 388, to fragment to the degree that this one apparently did?

Colonel FINCK. Yes, it is quite common to find a wound of exit much larger than the wound of entrance for weapons commonly used.

Representative FORD. But is it typical for the missile to fragment to the degree that this one did as shown in Exhibit 388?

Colonel FINCK. Yes; it is.

Representative FORD. Is it typical to find only a limited number of fragments as you apparently did in this case?

Colonel FINCK. This depends to a great extent on the type of ammunition used. There are many types of bullets, jacketed, not-jacketed, pointed, hollow-nosed, hollow-points, flat-nose, round-nose, all these different shapes will have a different influence on the pattern of the wound and the degree of fragmentation.

Representative FORD. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Colonel, very much for your help.

Colonel FINCK. You are welcome, sir.

Representative FORD. May I ask just one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; Colonel, we would like to ask just one more question.

Representative FORD. Do these two wounds represent the same or a different kind of bullet?

Colonel FINCK. You are referring to one wound and this other wound here?

Representative FORD. I am referring to the wound shown in Exhibit 388 identified as point of entry A, and wound in Exhibit 385 identified as C.

Colonel FINCK. Due to the difference in the nature of the tissue, difference in the nature of the target, it is perfectly possible that these two wounds came from the same type of bullet, that one hit bony structures and the other one did not, and that explains the differences between the patterns of these two wounds.

Representative FORD. Why one fragmented and one did not.

Colonel FINCK. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, again thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Wednesday, March 18, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE AND RUTH HYDE PAINE

The President's Commission met at 9 a.m. on March 18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian; and Charles Murray, observer.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Paine, I will just read a brief statement concerning the purpose of the meeting today which is our practice.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Michael R. Paine. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Paine made the acquaintance of the Oswalds during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Paine home from late September 1963 up to the time of the assassination.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others, as well as questions concerning any and all matters relating to the assassination.

You have been furnished a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. PAINE. I have seen something to that effect.

The CHAIRMAN. You have seen it.

Very well, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAINE. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated; Mr. Liebeler will propound the questions to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. PAINE. Michael R. Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your address?

Mr. PAINE. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, Mr. Paine?

Mr. PAINE. June 25, 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. PAINE. New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly your educational background, where you attended schools?

Mr. PAINE. I went to school, high school in New York, went to 2 years of Harvard and a year of Swarthmore, I have not finished college.

Mr. DULLES. What class would you have been in Swarthmore?

Mr. PAINE. 1953.

Mr. DULLES. You would have been 1953 if you finished or did you finish?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently married, are you not?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife's name is?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth Hyde Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have two children?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us who your parents are.

Mr. PAINE. Lyman Paine is my father and Ruth Forbes Paine Young, or Young is her present name. Mrs. Arthur Young now. She is my mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is your father living at the present time?

Mr. PAINE. He is in Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother?

Mr. PAINE. Philadelphia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Mr. PAINE. I have a brother in Baltimore.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?

Mr. PAINE. Cameron Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you presently employed?

Mr. PAINE. Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a security clearance in connection with your work at Bell Helicopter?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose it is. I don't happen to know what the classification is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you work prior to working for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. PAINE. I worked in Pennsylvania for Arthur Young.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your employment with Mr. Young?

Mr. PAINE. I had set up a shop in his barn and started work for myself and then he employed me making models, helicopter models for himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately at what time, what period of time did you work for Mr. Young?

Mr. PAINE. That is very difficult to say. I began more or less gradually first. I was doing other things. I am very vague about the dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the year approximately?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose I went to work at Bell in 1958. I have been there 4-1/2 years.

Mr. DULLES. Is this Mr. Young your stepfather?

Mr. PAINE. That is right

Mr. LIEBELER. And you worked for him immediately prior to your going to Bell Helicopter?

Mr. PAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to working for Mr. Young, did you have any other employment?

Mr. PAINE. I think I came from the Army. Before that I worked at Bartol Research Foundation in Swarthmore.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to tell us what that was.

Mr. PAINE. That was mostly a job of setting up a laboratory to--was nuclear research laboratory, Van Der Graaf generators it had there.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with Bartol?

Mr. PAINE. Mostly all the work in making those machines, setting those machines so they would run; making counters, coincidence counters, instrumentation to operate the machine.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you work for Bartol?

Mr. PAINE. That was just about a year, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to that did you have any other employment?

Mr. PAINE. No, that was Swarthmore.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever work for the Griswold Manufacturing Co.

Mr. PAINE. Oh, I did; yes. That was after--well, after the Army. I think it was only a few months, I don't remember when it fitted in.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of your work with that company?

Mr. PAINE. That was very boring. It was engraving precision scales.

Mr. LIEBELER. You worked in the actual engraving of the scales?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of your work with Bell Helicopter at the present time?

Mr. PAINE. I am called a research engineer. I work in a lab and design and build and test models of new concepts of helicopter configurations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been engaged in that type of work for Bell throughout the entire time you have been employed by them?

Mr. PAINE. I have been in the research laboratory research group that long. It has all been problems----

Mr. DULLES. Are you a helicopter pilot by any chance yourself?

Mr. PAINE. I am an airplane pilot.

Mr. LIEBELER. But your work basically for Bell has been in the research of design and operation of helicopters?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you met your wife and subsequently married her?

Mr. PAINE. I met her at a folk dance party, folk dance meeting, and I had known her for about 2 years before we married.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet her approximately?

Mr. PAINE. We were married, I think, in 1958, it was the end of the year so maybe it was 1957. What was the question again?

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when you met her.

Mr. PAINE. Two years before that would be, 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1956 or 1957.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We understand that you are a Quaker, Mr. Paine, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is not quite correct.

When I was in Philadelphia, I sang in various churches, and Ruth being a Quaker, started going to Quaker meetings. Had I remained there I would have become a Quaker. Moving to Texas there was a very small Quaker community, and I joined the Unitarian Church after a while.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become interested in the Quaker religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that.

Mr. PAINE. No; I think she was instrumental in bringing me into that circle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Give us a brief description of the outside interests that you and your wife and that your wife had during the time subsequent to your meeting and until the time you left Philadelphia. Was she active in church activities?

Mr. PAINE. No; I wouldn't say so. She was active in the Young Friends Committee of North America which was making an effort to bring a group of Russians on tour of this country. It was in the first flush or enthusiasm of East-West contacts, and after a couple of years they did succeed in bringing those Russians on tour. That was the beginning of her interest in Russian, learning the Russian language. I think that was her only activity that I am aware of or remember right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the United States and people in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. That was another part of this East-West contacts committee's duties or tasks they took upon themselves and I think she was chairman, accepted the chairmanship of that committee.

For a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive.

Mr. DULLES. Which committee was that, the committee to stimulate letters between Russia and the United States?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect people together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that group?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke of the East-West contacts committee as being active in trying to bring a group of Russians to the United States. Did they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring Russians to the United States that you know of?

Mr. PAINE. That is the only one I know of, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they succeed in bringing some Russians to the United States?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; they did. They brought three Russians, and then the Russians reciprocated by taking a group of Quakers who knew Russian on a tour of Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married to Ruth Hyde Paine at the time these Russian people came to the United States under the auspices of the East-West contacts committee?

Mr. PAINE. I might have been; I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she actively participated in the program to bring the Russians to the United States?

Mr. PAINE. Well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. I don't believe she did most of the writing to the State Department and what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever discuss them with you in any detail?

Mr. PAINE. We, I would often--I went to several of those meetings myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of any of the Russians who came to the United States in connection with this program?

Mr. PAINE. I might recognize them if I saw them again, but right now the names have escaped me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were just three of them?

Mr. PAINE. I think there were three; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a member of that organization?

Mr. PAINE. I suppose you become a member as soon as you contribute money, and I may have contributed money a good many years back. I didn't start going to a meeting of the organization until I was--I have only been to about four perhaps, in Dallas, four meetings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dallas the only place you have attended meetings of the ACLU?

Mr. PAINE. To my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you acquainted with an organization known as the Friends Peace Committee?

Mr. PAINE. It is a familiar name. I guess not, though. I don't think I have been to a meeting of theirs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it is connected in any way with the Young Friends Committee of North America.

Mr. PAINE. I take it to be a Friend, you know, a Quaker committee but I believe it is connected.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dennis Jamison, who I believe is active in the Friends Peace Committee?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or George Lakey?

Mr. PAINE. For practical purposes; no. The names seem a little familiar but I can't place them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the connection in which it is familiar to you?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Committee for Non-Violent Action?

Mr. PAINE. Many of these things sound familiar. I don't--I really am saying no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member or have you ever attended any meetings of the John Birch Society?

Mr. PAINE. I am not a member. I have been to one or, I guess chiefly one meeting of theirs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that?

Mr. PAINE. That was in Dallas?

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. PAINE. That was the night Stevenson spoke in Dallas.

The CHAIRMAN. When?

Mr. PAINE. The night Stevenson spoke in Dallas, U.N. Day.

Representative FORD. Was that 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of your attendance at that meeting and what happened?

Mr. PAINE. I had been seeking to go to a Birch meeting for some time, and then I was invited on this night so I went. It was an introductory meeting.

Mr. DULLES. On the 9th of November?

Mr. PAINE. It was November something, I don't know what, a Wednesday or Thursday night.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the record I think the record should indicate that Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas on or about October 24, 1963. Who invited you to this meeting?

Mr. PAINE. I had tried once before to go to a meeting which didn't occur. There happens to be a member of our choir, a paid soloist who is a John Birch advocate so I have been applying--so I have been telling her, that I wanted to go. I suppose, I don't remember for certain but I suppose she was the one who told me where and when.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this meeting have anything to do with the activity that occurred at Mr. Stevenson's meeting in Dallas?

Mr. PAINE. No. You see they were taking place at the same time. It was rather sparsely attended, most of them were down spitting on Stevenson.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Birch meeting which you were down to was sparsely attended?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was this an evening meeting or afternoon?

Mr. PAINE. This is evening.

Representative FORD. Evening.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask, did you go out of curiosity rather than sympathy or rather how did you happen to go?

Mr. PAINE. I am not in sympathy.

Mr. DULLES. So I gathered.

Mr. PAINE. I have been to a number of rightist meetings and seminars in Texas. I was interested in seeing more communication between the right and the left; there isn't much liberal out there and so I wanted to be able to speak their language and know that their fears--and be familiar with their feelings and attitudes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at this meeting as far as you can recall of Mr. Stevenson's appearance in Dallas?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe there was any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of the policy of the Kennedy administration?

Mr. PAINE. There was no discussion at that meeting. It was a 2- or 3-hour lecture on a movie by Welch, and then a young man gave a few more explanations about the organization. It was mostly an introductory meeting. I think for newcomers.

Mr. LIEBELER. Telling them about the John Birch Society itself?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Welch was not there, was he?

Mr. PAINE. No; he was not.

Representative FORD. Was this a movie in which he participated?

Mr. PAINE. He was the speaker at a lectern in this movie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of the political attitudes or activities of your father, George Lyman Paine?

Mr. PAINE. I have very little specific knowledge of what he does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what you do know about your father's political activities?

Mr. PAINE. I have seen my father rather rarely. Since I have been in Texas, I have seen him more frequently. I think I have been out there three times now in the last 5 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say out there--you mean Los Angeles?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I have seen him twice. He was out to Texas. I have been to Los Angeles twice, and he came at least once to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please fix the time when you went to Los Angeles?

Mr. PAINE. Last summer, 2 weeks in August or something. I was there for 3 days, the first, the middle of August.

I would guess it was about 2 years before that that I had been there. I could be off by a year both ways. I can't even remember whether he came--I think he probably interspersed his visit between mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that he visited Irving on two different occasions, once in Christmas, 1962?

Mr. PAINE. One was a Christmas party, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And once in the summer of 1961.

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember '61. I do remember pictures now, we have pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that in the period that you have been living in Texas you have gone to Los Angeles on two different occasions and visited your father there and he has been in Irving on two different occasions, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That seems, I think, to be right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you go on and tell us what you know about your father's political activities?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Well, we would have to go back to a little to when I lived in New York as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. There I would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the fact that I found him stimulating and I liked him.

He took me to a few, one or possibly two, Communist meetings at my considerable insistence. He didn't urge this upon me. I wanted to go, to get the feeling of the--I asked him what he did or something and I wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left.

So, I went to a few of those meetings, and didn't--was unfamiliar with the issues and questions they were debating. I got the feeling, I came away with the impression, that these people, there were three Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most up in arms with each other, or there----

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately?

Mr. PAINE. This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Representative FORD. What year about, what time span would that be?

Mr. PAINE. Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 to 1947.

Then I didn't--I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more.

Mr. DULLES. Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a member or attend or join meetings?

Mr. PAINE. No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked--I had some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the assembled people.

They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the same line.

So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and just--I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist manifesto.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever join any of these organizations?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I didn't know of any organization as such.

I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know--so therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, maybe he was a Socialist.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist?

Mr. PAINE. I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, and I can't now remember whose side who was on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any clear recollection of what particular group your father was associated with?

Mr. PAINE. No; I never had--never knew what the name of any group he might be associated with.

Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember anything of a similar nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know of your father ever using any aliases?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or Lyman Pierce?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the----

Mr. PAINE. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies.

But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what he was--I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to what he might be doing there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know, however, he was actively participating in the meetings and activities of this group?

Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother were divorced when you were about 4 years old?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were at that time living in New York City?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently you and your mother.

Mr. PAINE. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia City.

The CHAIRMAN. In New York you were living with your father or mother?

Mr. PAINE. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno, Nev.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your father living with the family?

Mr. PAINE. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and the other one I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father was not present during the time that you stayed in Nevada?

Mr. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother?

Mr. PAINE. And a housekeeper also.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Nevada where did you live?

Mr. PAINE. We went over to California. Santa Barbara.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who lived there at that time with you?

Mr. PAINE. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would come out occasionally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your father present at that time?

Mr. PAINE. No; he was not.

Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa Barbara?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.?

Mr. PAINE. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go after that?

Mr. PAINE. Cambridge, Mass.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there?

Mr. PAINE. From the third to the sixth grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. With whom did you live?

Mr. PAINE. With my mother on Fairweather Street.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was born--I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with his father.

Mr. PAINE. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a year would be a frequent--we felt great affinity in our bent, not in the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does, and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered information about what he did.

I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end of his life and his cause had fizzled out.

When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes' demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who happened to pass through at that time.

You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that this was part of the--was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether--I think he went along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it.

She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject I didn't----

Mr. DULLES. Who was this she?

Mr. PAINE. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten.

Mr. DULLES. One of the people present in these conversations?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing I can see has any bearing in your interest here.

Mr. LIEBELER. To what extent would you say that your father has influenced your own political views and attitudes?

Mr. PAINE. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father called you?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his shirt on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that conversation?

Mr. PAINE. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or something. And I didn't think their admonitions were--I think not to say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee.

Representative FORD. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use lynching in the broad sense.

Mr. PAINE. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought he was----

Representative FORD. Being railroaded?

Mr. PAINE. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea.

Representative FORD. You said that was a crazy idea?

Mr. PAINE. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite ideals.

And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself, Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be--Lee was the ideal person to hang it on.

Representative FORD. How soon was this phone call after the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was--he did not know, I think, that we had Marina staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?"

Representative FORD. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the context here.

Mr. PAINE. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the Paines?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to this time?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I mentioned him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny idea of him over the phone.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your judgment the only way your father heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine?

Mr. PAINE. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way or did he indicate that he knew of your father?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that my father had--you will have to ask her about that question. I did not mention my father to Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963.

Mr. DULLES. This is Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Lee Oswald.

Mr. PAINE. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go. Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and here the date that comes to mind is April 10.

Mr. DULLES. Where was Marina staying at this time?

Mr. PAINE. Berry Street.

Mr. DULLES. Berry Street in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street?

Mr. PAINE. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that conversation?

Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about----

Mr. DULLES. Could we get that picture?

Mr. PAINE. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was----

Mr. DULLES. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I see.

Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist, by reading books and then he got to Russia, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he went to Russia?

Mr. PAINE. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't elaborate on it?

Mr. PAINE. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history or something that made it possible for him to do these.

Mr. DULLES. Fortunate times?

Mr. PAINE. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. This is what I gathered from his conversation.

Representative FORD. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and fortunate that he could come back.

Mr. PAINE. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia. He told me that he had--so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give it to him, or the consul in Moscow, which was--which proved to be fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He had not legally surrendered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance?

Mr. PAINE. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the passport away from the Americans.

Representative FORD. Was the failure to get his passport a determining factor in their not accepting his desires?

Mr. PAINE. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his inability to get the passport and give it to them.

Representative FORD. Despite his inability?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. "They" being the Russians?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to all emigres to Russia, and there are some----

Mr. DULLES. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else, citizenship paper?

Mr. PAINE. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would know of it.

Mr. DULLES. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile.

Mr. PAINE. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time.

Mr. DULLES. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he?

Mr. PAINE. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a citizenship paper.

Mr. DULLES. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting permission to stay on in Russia?

Mr. PAINE. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so readily accepted--you know other Americans have a hard time staying more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that effect," is something that I gathered.

I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be--he smiled a little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I didn't--I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting enough to try to get him to relate it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not ask him to relate the story?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left Russia, from him?

Mr. PAINE. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to our house on Fifth Street,----

Mr. DULLES. Was this the first time you had seen him?

Mr. PAINE. All this happened in the first half hour.

Mr. DULLES. The first time you had ever seen him?

Mr. PAINE. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night.

He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it legally possible, and I asked him--at sometime I thought this was rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had granted him money also, to come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. PAINE. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. He actually had spoken--I had mentioned this because he had spoken abusively of the American Government.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this time, during the first meeting?

Mr. PAINE. Not just the American Government--yes; at this same meeting. He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it would be the thing to permit him to come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think he responded to it.

Mr. DULLES. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than surrendering citizenship, did he?

Mr. PAINE. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was renouncing American citizenship.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. PAINE. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He said that quite flatly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this conversation concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department, thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I don't remember whether he had voiced the same--I am confused, I don't know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought to the contrary it was very generous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced resentment against the Government of the United States in this connection?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal just for this----

Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what?

Mr. PAINE. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender it to the Soviet Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you made that answer to him?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember his response.

The CHAIRMAN. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if he wanted to?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money. They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he originally wanted to come back.

I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or whatever it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to arrange his return?

Mr. PAINE. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he seemed to have the critical attitude--some of this critical attitude may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in the words or in his attitude. He was critical, though, certainly of the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport.

Mr. DULLES. Was he critical at this latter time?

Mr. PAINE. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable.

Mr. DULLES. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I misunderstand you on that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his assent to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United States from Russia?

Mr. PAINE. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my friendship that way.

However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone there.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. PAINE. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car.

But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization.

Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what he was speaking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in which he was permitted to shoot a rifle?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not like this organization.

Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything of that kind?

Mr. PAINE. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any training that he might have received in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. He--is there anything else he told you about this hunting club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now?

Mr. PAINE. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting so that I didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--I think he did love hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a somewhat human way.

Mr. DULLES. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation?

Mr. PAINE. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had taken with some friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip?

Mr. PAINE. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was very brief.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to.

Mr. LIEBELER. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. I see.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this rifle?

Mr. PAINE. No; that subject never came up again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was electronics of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the nature of his work?

Mr. PAINE. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?

Mr. PAINE. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he received any income other than from his work?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting?

Mr. PAINE. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were restricted therefore in their--just too confined, told where to live. The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate number of times he saw Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations.

Mr. DULLES. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the assassination.

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Or that includes all the times?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't see him again after the assassination.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times prior to the assassination including this one time you have already described?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans and then about three weekends after he came back----

Mr. DULLES. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my mind approximately how many times in all you saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union?

Mr. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any special training that he had?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his living accommodations?

Mr. PAINE. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was assigned, and I think that is about all he said.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four times or just to the first time, are we still on the first?

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to the contrary.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this first meeting that you had?

Mr. PAINE. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian system and the American, the western system.

Then I found that he was--some questions, later in the evening, the conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could follow along.

Mr. DULLES. You mean after the first half hour when you were preparing----

Mr. PAINE. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house.

Mr. DULLES. Your house. So this went on?

Mr. PAINE. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner and had the additional conversation?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going to get less information in what he said.

Mr. DULLES. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the second part of the meeting there were other people there?

Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the pants.

Mr. DULLES. You don't understand Russian yourself?

Mr. PAINE. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest.

Mr. DULLES. How did she take this?

Mr. PAINE. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her.

Representative FORD. In other words, this half hour conversation took place in their apartment?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Representative FORD. While she was packing the bags to go to your home?

Mr. PAINE. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Was she packing the bags for some days or was this----

Mr. PAINE. No; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something.

Mr. DULLES. For a weekend?

Mr. PAINE. Just for the evening.

Mr. DULLES. Just for an evening?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know why it took so long but it did. I guess they weren't quite ready when I arrived.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald speak about during this evening, do you remember?

Mr. PAINE. After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap her down verbally, and not let her express them or say--Ruth told me later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything."

When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know--the questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said about that.

Mr. DULLES. Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their discussion about Russia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering on what kind of points he slapped her down.

Mr. PAINE. I have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape recorder, or something. I was interested to know whether the Russians were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the Secret Police, these are questions, I don't remember asking them, these are questions that I would have been interested in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any response either from Marina or from Oswald on these points?

Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember anything specific here. I just remember that I encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, therefore, I had in mind I will just wait until she can learn English and we will get it from the horse's mouth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak with Oswald during this first meeting of the circumstances under which he met Marina and married her in Russia?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember when I learned that. I think I learned it from Ruth, who had spoken to Marina on this subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you learn?

Mr. PAINE. It may have been--I don't remember when it occurred, it may have been after the assassination, I may have read it in the paper or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any specific conversations with Oswald on that subject?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever speak to you about his experience in the United States Marine Corps?

Mr. PAINE. He mentioned that his brother went in the Marine Corps and apparently enjoyed it and he had then, I think he said he had left school early to join it and I gathered, I thought to myself, he is expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find it. He did not like the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything--pardon me.

Mr. PAINE. He did not mention that I can recall his exit from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention the name of Governor Connally in connection with his experiences in the Marines?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever mention the President in this or any other conversations?

Mr. PAINE. He mentioned the President only once that I can remember specifically; at the ACLU meeting I think.

Mr. DULLES. At the which?

Mr. PAINE. At the ACLU meeting I took him to. He had mentioned, he thought President Kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, which was high praise coming from Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion during this first meeting other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning Oswald's political beliefs?

Mr. PAINE. There, of course, I was interested in that subject, found we differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments that were unmanageably large, I tried to bring it down to more specific instances of how he would like to see the world be.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you become aware of the fact that you differed, do you remember?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember him making any bones about it the very first meeting. He told me he had become a Marxist, in his own apartment there, that he had become a Marxist by reading books and never having met a Communist in this country.

And he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, and fellows at work.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to mention specific areas of political discussion that you had with him.

Mr. PAINE. One other thing happened in this first half hour, the most fruitful half hour I had ever had with him. He had mentioned his employer. I probably asked him why did he leave this country to go to the Soviet Union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in this country and to which he found--took, felt great resentment.

He was aware that his employer made--he made more money for his employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, that Oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward this employer, and I thought privately to myself that this resentment must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. So this was his guiding theme.

The reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in this country.

We discussed about it occurring in the Soviet Union, the taxation of a man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed to agree or sometimes I had to feed him, this conversation now is a later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the Soviet Union it is a choice which is impersonal.

The person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it.

Mr. DULLES. The man who decides what, to employ the other man?

Mr. PAINE. No; what wage to pay him.

Mr. DULLES. What wage to pay him?

Mr. PAINE. Or what his return shall be. So that was the only--the most important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic doctrine he held.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he translate that economic doctrine to specific policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that should be made in the structure of this country?

Mr. PAINE. I had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of progressive change that he would advocate. I asked him how did he think this change was going to come about, and he never answered that.

And it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs in this country. So that he did not--I did not come to--did not know of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals.

Representative FORD. Did he react academically, intellectually, violently or in what way did he express these views?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he was quite dogmatic. First he wanted to put me in a category. In one of the later talks--when we first met he talked very freely and then I think as we made, in later conversations, I had to do more and more of it--make more and more effort to draw something out of him.

In his later conversations, Ruth found him so bothersome.

Mr. DULLES. What was that word?

Mr. PAINE. Bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. He would get too angry or too----

Representative FORD. He resented the probing or the questioning?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not really resent the probing. For instance, take this issue of the exploitation of man by man. When we had boiled it down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal.

Mr. DULLES. The Soviet being the first and the American being the second?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct. That being then the crux of the matter and the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind of a point where it is just logic or reason just didn't seem to work or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called it a moral sin or I questioned him to that effect, and so he thought it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that doctrine.

Representative FORD. Did he appear to enjoy these give and takes between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your discussions?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think he resented them. I noticed at times he got quite hot under the collar and I noticed that he was holding his, staying on a steady keel even better than I was, as though he had had considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his position and not getting ruffled.

Representative FORD. But in this process over a period of time during these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, as I said to the others, I don't believe whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, and I later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something.

Mr. DULLES. Did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the American system and the Soviet system involved the exploitation of man by man except it was a different exploiter?

Mr. PAINE. I gathered--I was irked because it seemed to me the difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in the Soviet Union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words--he admitted in the Soviet Union that the tax rate which was a general term then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a man makes, was higher in the Soviet Union. He agreed that that could be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. So I did not find criticism of the Soviet Union on that score.

And in fact he didn't--I didn't discover in what ways he would like to try to change the Soviet Union except he didn't like the restrictions on his freedom there. Neither did he see there was any connection between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here without control of how the relationship between men would be governed.

Mr. DULLES. Did he ever go into the question of the relative position of labor in the United States from the point of view of its freedom of bargaining and the control of labor in the Soviet Union? Did that ever come up?

Mr. PAINE. No. I think, I can't remember whether it was a conversation I had directly with him or immediately after, I was following this idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about exploitation. Somebody--he felt exploited and he thought all the working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure to maintain itself in power.

When I pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, when I contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his shoulders. It didn't--his views still stood and it also permitted him, I think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because I was here just a product of my environment and I didn't know better and he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and therefore I was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power structure.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put you in a category, categorize you. Did he indicate to you during that first conversation that he had concluded what category?

Mr. PAINE. No; it was over several conversations, I suppose it was the last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named about seven or eight categories.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were they?

Mr. PAINE. I wasn't a Bircher, I wasn't a liberal, a Communist, a Socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, atheist.

Mr. DULLES. He didn't say whether you were a Republican or Democrat?

Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he was concerned about that.

(Laughter.)

Mr. PAINE. No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two parties.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald was bothersome to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation was trying to talk about those values quite apart from--I think the Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive--never mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed the Communist line.

He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was.

I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated it. Well, this kind of thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Upset your wife?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversation, you and Oswald had during this first evening that you met?

The CHAIRMAN. From the first day, are you going back to?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PAINE. I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker.

I had been bothered at the time that Walker had--I guess it doesn't do any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting?

Mr. PAINE. My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as--this was an impression.

Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner and Ruth can give you the date of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at that time?

Mr. PAINE. I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him.

Representative FORD. Him being Oswald?

Mr. PAINE. Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't think he said any--I don't think he made any important remarks about Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is the only time, probably the only time we mentioned Walker.

Mr. DULLES. To refresh my recollection, there was about 2 days or----

Mr. LIEBELER. 8 days before.

Mr. RANKIN. It was on the 10th.

Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker at that time?

Mr. PAINE. We seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to believe that he planned an attack on General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Absolutely not.

Senator COOPER. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs?

Mr. PAINE. When I went to the ACLU meeting he then got up, stood up and reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had occurred at convention hall the day before, U.N. Day, they called it U.S. Day, and I think Walker had spoken then.

From this I gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing--I thought he was, I didn't inquire how he spent his free time but I supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing himself for whatever his purposes were as I was.

Senator COOPER. Is that prior to the conversation you have talked about?

Mr. PAINE. No; this is after this conversation.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. PAINE. This is after this conversation and I only had this, this was the only concrete evidence I had of how he spent, might have spent some of his time. It happened in the ACLU meeting in late October. I suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and movements. And certainly familiar with Walker; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Confining the Senator's question to the meeting in April, he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with Walker's attitude or activities?

Mr. PAINE. He was familiar with Walker. He knew who Walker was, there was no doubt about that. We were talking about Walker.

Representative FORD. To find some common ground.

Mr. DULLES. He didn't say he knew where Walker lived or anything of that kind. That didn't come up?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any understanding to you at that April meeting of Walker's attitude?

Mr. PAINE. I don't think he singled out Walker as--I had the impression that he was quite familiar with Walker and probably familiar with the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the Christian Science, not the Christian Science, I have forgotten the names of various organizations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you relate to Oswald this story about Walker speaking at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their citizenship?

Mr. PAINE. I believe I did; yes. I believe that is what I said about Walker at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his response to that?

Mr. PAINE. And I think he didn't say much. I think he smiled and nodded his head and did that kind of thing. He may have said just a few words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take it that Oswald agreed with the views that you expressed?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after this first meeting----

Senator COOPER. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt your train too much but I think you had said that during this conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups.

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Senator COOPER. And their position and activities, and so forth. In that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members of that group?

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. PAINE. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about the John Birch Society at the time.

Senator COOPER. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker?

Mr. PAINE. He was the only one whose name was mentioned.

Senator COOPER. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at any time during this conversation about Walker?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. But--and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. I don't think he went on to describe any--it was mostly a ploy on my part to curry him or make him feel more at ease.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you at that time that both you and Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think favorably of him, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to this party back in February, whenever it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds and of your interest in the Oswalds?

Mr. PAINE. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying Russian and that--asked us if we would be interested in meeting this--they were presented to us as an American who had defected to Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that sounded interesting.

Mr. DULLES. Was this the Fort Worth group?

Mr. PAINE. No; this is in Dallas.

Mr. DULLES. Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the next time that you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what happened at that time?

Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this?

Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been what, early October or late September of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would come on Friday evening, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. You were separated from your wife at this time?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.?

Mr. PAINE. Grand Prairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Grand Prairie.

Mr. PAINE. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding work with him.

Mr. DULLES. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary meeting?

Mr. PAINE. Yes. While Marina was staying with us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New Orleans, up until the time of his assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional.

I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not there and there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday when he was generally there.

Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me the date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963?

Mr. PAINE. I think that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. PAINE. That would be correct; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it, what happened, what was said.

Mr. PAINE. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there when he first called, I don't believe.

Mr. DULLES. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving?

Mr. PAINE. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that weekend?

Mr. PAINE. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home that weekend?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not see them first embrace each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about where he had been?

Mr. PAINE. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he was looking for work in Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ruth had told you that before this date?

Mr. PAINE. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was no conversation among any one at that time about Oswald having been in Mexico.

Mr. PAINE. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it as an example of his colossal lying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances surrounding that?

Mr. PAINE. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to a party I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night.

Mr. DULLES. This would be Saturday, November what?

Mr. PAINE. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for sure about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me?

Mr. PAINE. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents. I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and it took a while--I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have.

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter just for the record?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in Washington.

Mr. DULLES. The Russian Embassy in Washington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no longer interested in his political activity in Texas.

Mr. DULLES. Was this letter ever sent?

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was.

Mr. DULLES. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the original?

Mr. RANKIN. It is in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. What was sent, a letter like this?

Mr. RANKIN. A redraft.

Mr. DULLES. A redraft.

Mr. PAINE. Typewritten copy.

Mr. LIEBELER. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in Mexico, does it not?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the Soviet Embassy there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed you this letter?

Mr. PAINE. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the thing. I think I might have--no, I don't know as I might have since I might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I didn't see and she didn't tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was all prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say to you?

Mr. PAINE. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?

Mr. PAINE. No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name.

And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later Ruth asked me what did I think about it----

Mr. LIEBELER. This was before the assassination that she asked you this?

Mr. PAINE. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it later the same day?

Mr. PAINE. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?

Mr. PAINE. Well, she was--I think I said, "Let me see that letter again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So, heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way I continued to do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring it up?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; Ruth brought it up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or what?

Mr. PAINE. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican music in your home prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. I didn't know that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina this charm made from a Mexican peso?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under what circumstances?

Mr. PAINE. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald had been in Mexico prior to the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression he hadn't been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that she believed it?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you do that?

Mr. PAINE. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?

Mr. PAINE. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part--I was not really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested, that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something constructive to do.

So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member.

I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this--do you want to break?

Mr. LIEBELER. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you?

Mr. PAINE. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story.

Mr. PAINE. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they are also Birchers.

Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to, "I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to make sense?

Mr. PAINE. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I think it was accepted as--it made sense; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's remarks?

Mr. PAINE. I think not.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened then later on in the meeting?

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