Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the President's car is stopped, as it did in that event?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's followup car at any time?

Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver, Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood?

Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part?

Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady as my case was, as possible, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of the Secret Service?

Mr. HILL. No; they are not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps.

Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request?

Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the individual in charge of that trip to Florida?

Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction by President Kennedy?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction?

Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate?

Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347.

(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able to identify what that scene is.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's motorcade followed through that area?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it?

Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street, and Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is? Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. In the curve?

Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes.

Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is.

Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it?

Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade?

Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were people scattered throughout the entire park.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just straightened out on Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no faster than 15 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard?

Mr. HILL. Two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at the time of the second shot?

Mr. HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first--although at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The President at that time had been shot in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate--that is, the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he grabbed at himself?

Mr. HILL. He grabbed in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to your--to the throat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand.

Mr. HILL. To the chest area.

Mr. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that you recollect?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and going left and forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. This was after a head wound?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Before the head wound?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it?

Mr. HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped, because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I knew something was wrong.

Representative FORD. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that you think you got to the automobile?

Mr. HILL. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left rear step.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of Governor Connally at that time?

Mr. HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was completely covered with blood.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that?

Mr. HILL. Just after going under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass?

Mr. HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on outside the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on the Presidential automobile?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I had scanned it.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on the overpass at that time?

Mr. HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a policeman there.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there?

Mr. HILL. Very few, I would say--maybe five, six.

Mr. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a policeman there?

Mr. HILL. He was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman.

Mr. SPECTER. What color uniform was it?

Mr. HILL. I think it was blue of some shade.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed in the area?

Mr. HILL. That's correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward--that is, the Presidential car.

Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. In time or----

Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.

Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. How about time?

Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."

Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment?

Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit."

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent Kellerman make?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the assassination itself?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this--about how long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on the front?

Mr. HILL. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was ripped in the forward portion of his body.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take to shield the President's body?

Mr. HILL. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip to Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at Parkland Hospital to shield the President?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and upper chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland?

Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into, I think, emergency room No. 2.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was removed first from the automobile?

Mr. HILL. Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland Hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims?

Mr. HILL. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost--almost simultaneously with the arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the hospital?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of arrival on, please.

Mr. HILL. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came outside and said, "Get the White House."

I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls, I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him advised as to his condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know?

Mr. HILL. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were there.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any pronouncement that the President had died?

Mr. HILL. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action was taken as a result of that request by you?

Mr. HILL. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, Special Agent Sulliman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special Agent In Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr. Burkley, the President's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of the ambulance.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the airplane at Love Field?

Mr. HILL. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of President Johnson?

Mr. HILL. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you witness those ceremonies?

Mr. HILL. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn in.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the time of the swearing in?

Mr. HILL. 2:38.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the Presidential aircraft depart?

Mr. HILL. 2:47.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. HILL. 5:59, I believe, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did it land?

Mr. HILL. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter did you take following landing?

Mr. HILL. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President Kennedy's staff.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go then?

Mr. HILL. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you stay with the President's family at that time?

Mr. HILL. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs. Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you view the President's body?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take following the time you viewed the President's body in the morgue?

Mr. HILL. After the viewing of the President's body?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HILL. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy until we departed the hospital.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas, you had seen--had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw him.

Representative BOGGS. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket.

Representative BOGGS. At this time did you see the whole body?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.

Representative BOGGS. Was there a frontal neck injury?

Mr. HILL. There was an area here that had been opened but----

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating----

Mr. HILL. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this was done by a tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of your duties on that date, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the 17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave the 17th floor?

Mr. HILL. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact time.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go from there?

Mr. HILL. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General got into the rear of the ambulance with the body.

Mr. SPECTER. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. HILL. I accompanied them to the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that day?

Mr. HILL. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back.

Mr. SPECTER. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete, what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. Right rear.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source of point of origin of the second shot that you described?

Mr. HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot?

Mr. HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask?

Representative FORD. No.

Representative BOGGS. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig.

Mr. CRAIG. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming.

Mr. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Youngblood, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

TESTIMONY OF RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Rufus Wayne Youngblood.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Forty.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Since March of 1951.

Mrs. SPECTER. What is your educational background, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I graduated from Georgia Institute of Technology. Bachelor of Industrial Engineering.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. 1949.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied from termination of your college work until starting with the Secret Service?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I worked for Bradshaws, Inc., which was a refrigeration and air-conditioning concern in Waycross, Ga., and then worked for Alvin Lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline in general terms what your duties have been with the Secret Service since the time you joined them?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I began in the Secret Service as a special agent, criminal investigator, and started off at the Atlanta field office, and stayed there about a year and a half. This time was spent in investigation of Government forged check cases, bond cases, counterfeiting, and similar investigations.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I came to the Washington, DC. area, and worked in the Washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work I had done in Atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working on temporary assignment at the White House detail. And then in 1953 I was assigned to the White House detail and worked there during the Eisenhower Administration about 6 years, and returned to the Atlanta field office for 3 more years in that area, during which time President Eisenhower would come to Augusta and Albany, and on two occasions on foreign trips I was called in.

And after 3 years in that field office, I returned to Washington again, assigned to the White House detail. The last part of the Eisenhower Administration and the beginning of the Kennedy Administration.

And in March of 1961, I was assigned to the Vice-Presidential detail. This, at that time, was part of the Washington field office. And I have been on an assignment with the Vice-Presidential detail since March 1961, except for a 1-month period when I returned to the White House detail. And then back to the Vice-Presidential detail.

But during this time, the Vice-Presidential detail changed from a field office assignment to a small independent office, and then, later, in October of 1962, when legislation was passed, changing the laws relative to protection of the Vice President, it became a larger detail. And I have been on the Vice-Presidential detail in the occurrence at Dallas, and returned to the White House detail when Mr. Johnson became the President.

And during this period of time, I have been a special agent, assistant special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in charge of the Vice-Presidential detail. But due to what occurred in Dallas, I went to the White House as an assistant special agent in charge.

Any other particulars?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was your rank at the time of the Dallas trip, specifically on November 22, 1963?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was the assistant special agent in charge of the Vice-Presidential detail.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. And as such, were you responsible for the security of the Vice President on that trip?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your current rank?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Assistant special agent in charge of the White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of the assistant special agent in charge at the White House detail?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that now held by Special Agent Kellerman?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable rank.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the activities of Vice President Johnson during the few days immediately before Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch to Dallas, and we went by commercial plane--actually, from the ranch to Austin in the Vice President's plane, and from Austin to Dallas on a commercial plane. And while in Dallas, he addressed the Bottlers Convention. And we returned to the plane, flew back to Austin, then flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the next day and through Thursday.

And on Thursday we went to San Antonio, to join the group coming down from Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Vice President Johnson then address the Bottlers Association in Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That was on Tuesday.

Mr. SPECTER. November 19?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would have to look at a calendar.

Mr. SPECTER. The preceding Tuesday----

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The preceding Tuesday before the 22d; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, outline in a general way Vice President Johnson's activities on the morning of November 22d, before he arrived in Dallas, if you would, please.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our day began at the hotel in Fort Worth, where we had stayed overnight. And that morning we went down to a mezzanine floor where we met with President Kennedy and a group of White House people. We went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an assembled gathering.

Then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in the hotel. They attended that. And, after that, we formed a motorcade and went to the field nearby in Fort Worth and boarded Air Force 2, and flew into Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did the Vice Presidential plane arrive in Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. About 11:35.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you tell the Commission in general terms what Vice President Johnson did upon arrival at the Love Field?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir.

This plane, Air Force 2, had on board the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson and other officials. And we disembarked from the plane and were met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. And then we moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp, which would be pushed out when Air Force 1, the President's plane, arrived. And when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes after ours, roughly 10 minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson headed the reception committee to greet the people who came off of Air Force 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the activities in greeting the crowd and the general reception last at Love Field on that morning?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Do you mean from the time we arrived on Air Force 2 until we left?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think it was about 15 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what position in the motorcade was Vice President Johnson's automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were following the Presidential followup car, and the motorcade up to our point--there was a lead car, the President's car, the Presidential followup car, and then our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a car known as the pilot car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; in all probability. This is a normal police arrangement.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify the occupants of Vice President Johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. The driver of this car was Hurchel Jacks, and he is with the State Highway Patrol. And behind him was Senator Ralph Yarborough, from Texas. And in the middle back seat was Mrs. Johnson. And on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me, was the Vice President. And I was in the front seat on the right-hand side.

Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of an automobile was it?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This was a Lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it obtained locally for use during this trip?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was obtained locally for use during the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. And what car immediately followed the Vice President's automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice Presidential detail had a followup car which followed our car.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of an automobile was that?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was either a Lincoln or a Mercury, I don't know the exact make. It was a Ford product, and it was a four-door car. But it was closed.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where each sat?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The front seat, the driver, I think his name is Rich. He is always on the Texas Highway Patrol. In the front seat in the middle is Cliff Carter. He is an assistant to the Vice President's staff.

(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On the right-front side was Jerry Kivett. He is one of the agents on the Vice Presidential detail. And in the back seat, behind the driver, was Warren Taylor, and in the back seat on the other side was my agent, Lem Johns.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the motorcade?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which the motorcade proceeded from Love Field down to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded 20 miles or 25 miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during that time?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We actually came to stops during this time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many stops?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. More than one. Two or more.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred during the course of those stops, or what prompted them?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, these stops were made by the Presidential car to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson greet anyone at those stops?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, I think. He remained in the car. I got out of the car and stood by the side of it on more than one occasion. He waved at people, and some did run over, and I think he did touch some. But he didn't leave the car.

Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's followup car did the Vice President's followup car drive?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice President's followup car?

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--the Vice President's automobile.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or three car lengths behind.

Mr. SPECTER. And did your distance on this occasion conform to your customary practice of being that distance behind?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance behind the President's followup car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, mainly so the crowd can see the Vice President, and he can see them. If you are too close behind the Presidential group, the crowd will be watching the President and will watch him as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. So it gives the people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see each other.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354, and ask you if you are able to identify what that is a picture of.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that depict?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, it is a picture showing the main street, Houston Street and Elm Street, and the assassination occurred on Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar at this time with the identities of Main, Houston, and Elm?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; when I have a map such as this ahead of me.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. How far behind the President's automobile was the Vice President's automobile in which you were riding when the Vice President's automobile turned right off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. You ask again how far were we behind the President's car? Did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the Presidential followup car?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I meant the President's car on that occasion.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were a distance of about two car lengths behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind the Presidential car. But this would be a guess on my part.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to the crowd which was lined up on Houston and Elm as you approached that intersection?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Houston Street, on the side where the tall building is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. On the side which is the park side, the crowd was smaller. They did have some people there, but it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the Vice President's car as you proceeded down Houston Street toward Elm Street?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our speed, of course, was governed by the vehicles in front of us, but I would say we had just made one turn, and it was only a block there before we would make another turn. It was approximately 10 miles an hour, between 10 and 15.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and I ask you if you are now able to identify what that building is?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; I am now able to identify it.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that building, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That is the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's car at the time the first shots were heard? And would you take Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice President's car with the capital letter "A" there?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At the time of the first shot, did you say?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It will be in this area here, I should think.

Mr. SPECTER. I want the Vice President's car at this time.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, will you describe----

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Excuse me. You said put an "A" here?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Will you describe just what occurred as the motorcade proceeded past the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead and to the right the crowd became spotty. I mean it wasn't continuous at all, like it had been. As we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise. I quickly observed unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick movements in the Presidential followup car. So I turned around and hit the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded to go to the back seat and get on top of him.

I then heard two more shots. But I would like to say this. I would not be positive that I was back on that back seat before the second shot. But the Vice President himself said I was. But--then in hearing these two more shots, I again had seen more movement, and I think someone else hit a siren--I heard the noise of a siren.

I told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front. And right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this immediate area, and we were following close behind. And I had a radio which was on a Baker frequency, where I could communicate back with the agents in my followup car. And they had a Charlie frequency, which was on the same network of the Presidential motorcade. And I called back and said I am switching to Baker frequency--I said, "I am switching to Charlie." And as I switched, I heard some transmission over the Charlie sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and I heard Kivett reply to Emory Roberts that he was covered, and I saw agents in the followup car, the Presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. I asked the driver what his opinion was as to--I don't know for exact sure just where we were going, but I knew our best protection was to stay with that Presidential followup crew. And I asked the driver if he had passed the Trade Mart. He said he passed it and we were going on to the hospital. And I heard indications over the radio that we were going to the hospital. We had a very fast ride there.

I told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck. There was some conversation between the Vice President and myself while we were going to the hospital. I told him that I didn't know how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the hospital, I would like to get out of the car and go into the building and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents. He agreed to.

When we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. As we stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the Vice Presidential car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the Presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. I posted one man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was certain of his identity.

I told Jerry Kivett and Warren Taylor to pull all the shades and blinds, which they did. And they also busied themselves with evacuating a couple of people out of there. There was a nurse and a patient in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, Mr. Youngblood, let me drop back and pick up a few of the details theretofore.

What would your best estimate be of the speed of the Vice President's car at the time you heard that first explosive noise?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Oh, approximately 12 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And had you maintained the distance which you have described heretofore behind the President's followup car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, generally. Sometimes as we went around corners, we tried to close up the gap a little bit. But as soon as we got on a straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, at this particular time, what is your best recollection of the distance between the Presidential followup car and the Vice President's car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We are on Elm Street now.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time the first shot occurred.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were two or three car lengths behind.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the Presidential followup car at the time of the first shot?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think somewhat less than a car length.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the total timespan between the first and third shots which you have already described?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. From the beginning to the last?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think 5 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. And you have described the first shot as being an explosive noise. How would you describe each of the second and third shots?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise of the first shot and the last two. I am not really sure that there was a difference. But in my mind, I think I identified the last two positively as shots, whereas the first one I thought was just an explosive noise, and I didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a shot. It seems, as I try to think over it, there was more of a crack sound to the last two shots. That may have been distance, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to time interval--was there longer or less time or the same between the first and second shots and the second and third shots?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. There seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source or point of origin of the first shot?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I didn't know where the source or the point of origin was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same apply, or would there be a different situation there?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the right.

Representative FORD. Did they sound on the surface or in the air or couldn't you discern?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to the rear of the automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that you hit the Vice President's shoulder, and at that time you were indicating your left hand, I believe.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which hand did you use in hitting the Vice President's shoulder?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. My left, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And which shoulder of the Vice President did you hit?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. His right, because I turned this way. I turned to my left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with respect to the position of President Johnson's body?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the Vice President says that I vaulted over. It was more of a stepping over. And then I sat on top of him, he being crouched down somewhat.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating towards the left?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes, sir, and down. And then I sat on this portion of his arm here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow to the shoulder?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; generally.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the positions of the other occupants of the back seat at the time you sat on the Vice President?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Mrs. Johnson more or less moved into a forward--just moved forward. And Senator Yarborough also moved forward, and possibly he moved over a little to the right. I am not sure. But we were all below the window level of the car. And those two generally were forward. But the Vice President was forward and a little to his left.

Mr. SPECTER. In what direction did you look when you were first sitting on the Vice President?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. In what direction did I look?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Almost all directions.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the direction from which you thought the danger was emanating?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think I first looked to the right--but to the right, forward, up, as much as I could scan, and also the people in the Presidential followup car. Because I recall seeing at the time one of our agents, Hickey, who was in the Presidential followup car, in almost a standing position with an AR-15 looking back and up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.

So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade Mart.

Representative FORD. As you looked at the school depository building, and noticed this clock, where is the clock? Can you identify it?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This, right here.

Representative FORD. It is on top of the roof?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; right up here.

Representative FORD. And this is after you turned from Main Street on to Houston Street?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were on Houston Street--just as soon as we got on Houston Street. And I looked up and I saw it there.

Representative FORD. Did you notice anything else on the building as you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I noticed open windows, and some people, I think. But I didn't notice this particular window.

Representative FORD. You saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows that you noticed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing buildings with windows and people. And that I saw. But I saw nothing unusual.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time it took to get to Parkland Hospital after the shooting occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe it was between 5 and 8 minutes, something of that nature.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on your best estimate, en route from the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe we were going around 60 or 70 miles an hour at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe President Kennedy or Governor Connally being removed from the President's automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; because I had--as I mentioned before--I had told the Vice President, or suggested to the Vice President that we did not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could, and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got into a safe place.

Mr. SPECTER. Had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at the scene?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't hardly see how they could have been, because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. It was just a matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily walking right on past. I think they were in the act of removing these people, but I don't think they would have had time to have removed them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you enter the emergency entrance as well?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I interrupted you before when you were describing the security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you took the Vice President. Would you continue and describe for us what occurred thereafter?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At what point?

Mr. SPECTER. I interrupted you. You were in the room, you had pulled the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the Vice President.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was the Vice President, Mrs. Johnson, and myself at first, with agents Kivett and Warren Taylor also in the big room, but not right over in the corner at the beginning. And shortly thereafter Emory Roberts came in. He was one of the White House detail agents. He told us that the situation--situation with President Kennedy looked very bad. The Vice President asked me what I thought--what we should do. And I said I think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on the plane, and return to Washington. And Emory Roberts concurred. And the Vice President agreed. But he wanted to get a better report on the condition and so forth.

Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane.

The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did. Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that the President had died.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you have it in other documents.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as Commission Exhibit 355?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for identification.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This is our shift report, and this is the times that Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that daily shift report prepared under your supervision, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed, after the end of the workday on November 22?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom. That is when he got around to typing it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that signify your approval shortly after completion of the document?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your activities were from the time you had learned that the President had died?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?"

O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I believe this is mainly because Air Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other planes.

President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs. Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body would come out. Shall I go on?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready when we did decide to evacuate the hospital.

So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level, and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen Bennett, another agent from the White House.

And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving--I imagine he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice President said, "Stop and let him get in."

So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it actually took. It was about a 30-second stop.

We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his right.

And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and we were getting a motorcycle escort.

And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route. We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth.

So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Approximately?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45 minutes after that.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy arrive at the plane?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that party arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the plane take off for the Washington area?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing out.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I believe, two times--at least two times.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to be sure she could get through the security lines.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as promptly as possible?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President Johnson?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south grounds of the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see, he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail schedules.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. No, sir.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming and testifying. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Tuesday, March 10, 1964

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates, American Bar Association.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state----

The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native?

Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly----

The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960?

Mr. JACKSON. 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please?

Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university?

Mr. JACKSON. 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?

Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army, on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. JACKSON. I am married.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children?

Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day?

Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President, Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures?

Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the morning of November 22, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been?

Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9, I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.

And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade?

Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was another car in the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House press, two or three cars.

Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers?

Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with White House newsmen?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the Vice President's car, if you know?

Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times.

Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene.

Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on?

Mr. JACKSON. Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. West.

Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street.

The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out.

Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names.

One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I believe the other was channel 11, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting?

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by sight but I can't remember the names.

And I was on the right side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat?

Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Top down?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera?

Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately almost half a block on Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347, precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this building. Approximately where we heard the first report.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot, I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it.

I didn't even see a form in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn?

Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?

Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle was.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "B."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.

Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the double--actually this is the rifle window right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there, halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it.

My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window.

Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see?

Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?

Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between 5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.

Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high?

Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of 5 to 6 feet?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.

Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the window from my view.

Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building.

Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well, let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street?

Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit 347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot?

Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "Z"?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked at that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?

Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have described?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows.

Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that?

Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up.

Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at all.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show.

Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?

Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window.

Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to his left?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just followed them up.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them?

Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Before.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8 or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?

Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three?

Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr. Couch, to your knowledge?

Mr. JACKSON. Couch?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch?

Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.

I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of the scene.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.

Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions?

Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr. Jackson?

Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the Secret Service, or any investigative organization.

Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next day was the first day.

Representative FORD. Saturday November 23?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.

Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization?

Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.

Representative FORD. Was that followed up----

Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on Saturday.

Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a statement publicly before?

Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it stating this in general which I have stated today.

Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?

Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than that there was none other.

Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination?

Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard, let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that physical and I had 20-20 vision.

Representative FORD. 20-20 vision?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958.

Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not.

Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have never discussed it with them.

Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they said?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.

Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say.

Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?

Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up.

Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.

Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I saw in this confusion.

Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.

Mr. JACKSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it.

Who is next?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that statement to the witness?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose of the hearing.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well.

TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address?

Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status.

Mr. ROWLAND. Married.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married?

Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months.

Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir?

Mr. ROWLAND. High school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was during the summer.

Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the P. F. Collier Co.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising.

Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present.

Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter?

Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health.

Mr. ROWLAND. Good.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20?

Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.

Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets in Dallas, approximately?

Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town?

Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town approximately a quarter to 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end?

Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?

Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five or six blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately picked to watch the parade?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that area.

Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask you if you can identify what scene this represents.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can.

Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the President was assassinated.

Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where you were standing as best you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible to the point where you were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the left of it, about the third window or right here in this area.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of the next half hour?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many people on this corner.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that position.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V."

Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you have marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?

Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.

Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would, where you moved next.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it. I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission Exhibit No. 356.

Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and ask you if you can identify what that represents?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building. This is the school book depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a physics notebook.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor other than the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there, we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.

Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my absence.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described?

(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a .30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. It is an import.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer with?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned?

Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar manufacture.

Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock.

Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?

Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar. I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I didn't see but a small portion.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.

Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?

Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see him clear in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?

Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him?

Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.

Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where I was.

Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front of the building that you have indicated?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't know.

Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.

Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?

Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist.

Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?

Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.

Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.

Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in his thirties?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision.

Representative FORD. So she never saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.

Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old you thought he was?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his thirties, early thirties.

Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this man immediately after you saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to acknowledge the figure with no description.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe 20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15 to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now----

Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she look in the direction of the man?

Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in that direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the window where you had seen him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you observe in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional conversation about this man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you discussed with your wife at that juncture?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think so.

Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as you had this conversation with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.

Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say?

Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet.

Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in that line of vision?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet, just a little further than the officer.

Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than 10 to 15 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we selected that spot.

Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?

Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't.

Representative FORD. It never entered your mind?

Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me.

Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might have made a difference. It very well could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that sort which you could observe?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper.

I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there," and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."

I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you have to us?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started discussing that it was a security man.

We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that immediate area.

Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did this conversation with your wife take place?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again looked at my watch.

Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly.

Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.

Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative FORD. At what time was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner.

Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?

Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner.

Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor.

Representative FORD. When did you notice him?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade came along?

Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I was interested in seeing him again.

Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade?

Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men.

I think there were four in this car.

Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.

Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.

Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.

Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that time. My wife likes clothes.

Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?

Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.

Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit 356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.

Here on this floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and this pair.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one window or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there was one, one window open.

Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E," "F," and "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.

Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I think there was one person in each window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other window or hanging out of any other window in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to my recollection.

There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with respect to everybody hanging out the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the way it would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.

Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open 3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "A," was that completely closed?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that I saw----

Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B" or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do remember it was one of the windows on the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were white or Negro?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman in that window until the President's procession passed by?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was----

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.

(Question read.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you like the question repeated?

Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question.

Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?

Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that----

Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.

Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who were standing on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass itself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the people on the overpass whom you have just described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B."

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those individuals?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think I looked more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change at the various times when you looked in that direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up there or anyone else went on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main. Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight considering some of the other people.

The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was obscured from our vision by the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5 seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and----

Mr. SPECTER. What was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire?

Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study?

Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject?

Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods of class.

Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name?

Mr. ROWLAND. Sam.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach?

Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there?

Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same.

Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?

Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here.

Now most of the officers converged on this area----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the echo effect?

Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the first shot, in what direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter "D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?

Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb, out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where we crossed the street to the end of the block.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at the time of the third shot?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car, that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as well give in to her.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe more.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and showed me his ID.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a State, City or Federal official, if you know?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he follow?

Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.

Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?

Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.

Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an electric typewriter that she brought into the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which you took on the occasion which you have just related?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife dragged me across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears----

Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?

Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI agent reworded it, and she took it down.

Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not notice when you signed it.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw and heard on that date?

Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet from there, in fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about 15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen him.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of 3 seconds between the second and third shots?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at variance from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V" on this other Exhibit 354.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current recollection and this statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for us?

(Answer read.)

Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of that Bureau.

Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of distance that he was from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr. Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.

Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI, don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents and I don't remember their names.

Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one. There were four handwritten statements that I signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15 feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have. Everything was confusing.

Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that the man was back from the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.

Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November 24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?

Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.

Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d, as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of November?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify the man that I saw, his description.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What did they say which gave you that impression?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take it down in the notation as such.

Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very interested in that at all.

Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored man in the other window.

Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before, and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was.

Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this area.

Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the window with the rifle for the FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman in window "A" whom you testified you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.

Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on that date.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's house.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the 24th.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on me.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been taken on a stenopad?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because she was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with identification of the man that I saw.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who had interviewed you and taken statements from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All different?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday.

Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December 1st?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was----

Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, had me recount what I had told the other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if you recall?

Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent and a Secret Service Agent.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not remember which.

Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only two times of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's office?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.

Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as Commission Exhibit 357?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal Government?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or representative of the State Government of Texas?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the window which we have circled with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's, in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?

Mr. ROWLAND. 147.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?

Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.

Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when I read the paper.

Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention before they left, and they----

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November 23?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the balance of the interviews you have described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our questioning, Your Honor.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and science is what I like.

Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you ever conduct any experiments yourself?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound.

Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.

Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?

Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this we did conduct.

Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report.

Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.

Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?

Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one. There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.

There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area.

Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up there?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.

Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back----

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.

Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate it.

We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to another member of the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that?

Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that?

Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located?

Mr. WORRELL. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. Twenty.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and I think it was 2 or 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California?

Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. WORRELL. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single?

Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents?

Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had?

Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it?

Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit.

Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. SPECTER. High school?

Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the 11th grade?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior.

Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school?

Mr. WORRELL. Average.

(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22, 1963?

Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there.

Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or were enrolled at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since October?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out in Kermit, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for your employer?

Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of January.

Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now.

Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time, about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field?

Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the rest of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there. There weren't many people standing around there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade came to Elm and Houston did you get there?

Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President arrived there?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the President come down.

Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President went by.

Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now how close to that building were you standing?

Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?

Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that building is?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it.

Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street watching him come, and they filed by me----

Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come?

Mr. WORRELL. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?

Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?

Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down----

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first saw it?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street, right?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?

Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way.

Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?

Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?

Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us.

Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WORRELL. Four.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say about 6 inches of it.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side.

Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight up.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe?

Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant?

Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it.

Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second shot went off?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the second shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car, the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then----

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described?

Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that?

Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck."

Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those?

Mr. WORRELL. Succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast?

Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one----

Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you have just pointed to?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)

Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?"

Mr. SPECTER. A "Y."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two?

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.

Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto Elm Street Parkway going down the front there.

Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.

Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing?

Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner of the building on Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north.

Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north.

Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner----

Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what?

Mr. WORRELL. Of this building.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there?

Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.

Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too much, short winded.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. WORRELL. How long?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned?

Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you are pretty sure?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "Z."

Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight?

Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height?

Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast moving on.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he?

Mr. WORRELL. White.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?

Mr. WORRELL. Black.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have----

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front looked like. But it was full in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on?

Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket.

Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light?

Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him?

Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he----

Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just running.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the Depository Building and then when he got----

Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded----

Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and----

Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?

Mr. WORRELL. I went east.

Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?

Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to Farmers Branch.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea----

Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point?

Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of that building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. As far as this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out?

Mr. WORRELL. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that about right?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine.

At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but I would like to mark it in sequence.

And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 be admitted into evidence.

Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that request?

Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. You called who?

Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well, stay there and we will come and get you."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.

Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit 363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please.

Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just now?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event?

Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8 from 5-7.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am not too sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker.

Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?

Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any Federal agent?

Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents?

Mr. WORRELL. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them?

Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last?

Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have me sign anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or representative?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this Commission hearing?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?

Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to her for 15 minutes, something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know even who she was talking to.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the Federal Government.

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission Exhibit No. 362.

Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions.

Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL. Pardon?

Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at it?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was riding one time when you said you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building because I figured that would be the safest place.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark "Z."

Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described?

Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or what?

Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has this statement:

"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view."

My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had a profile view?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already described to us?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you?

Mr. EUINS. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You understand that?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to?

Mr. EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Mr. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school?

Mr. EUINS. The ninth.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How is your health generally?

Mr. EUINS. I guess it is all right.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real close range.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do you mean by that?

Mr. EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long scene, I can see good.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what?

Mr. EUINS. They are about average.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall what you were doing early on that morning?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about 11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an excuse, so I went downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school?

Mr. EUINS. 11:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school?

Mr. EUINS. Downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of downtown?

Mr. EUINS. Right over by the county jail.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help your memory as to what the names of those streets were?

Mr. EUINS. It was right by the freeway.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can recognize where that is.

Mr. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to here--right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository Building, as you identify it there, Amos--on the building itself.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. EUINS. I was right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right where you were, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "A"?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like that to 12, because my mother brought me down there.

Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself?

Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about--I had been there about 15, maybe 20 minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 366.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is.

Mr. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the President's motorcade came from on this picture?

Mr. EUINS. It come from right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is? Would that be Main Street, in Dallas?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly direction. Turning which way?

Mr. EUINS. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Turned right.

Do you know if that is Houston Street?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street heretofore identified as Houston.

Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general northerly direction on Houston?

Mr. EUINS. It come this way, turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Which way--right or left?

Mr. EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it made the left turn?

Mr. EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified as Elm Street.

Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by.

Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe?

Mr. EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell us where it was.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind this--I was looking at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember?

Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us.

When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point where you marked with an "A" on 365?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here.

Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the second shot occurred.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you were standing at the first shot.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point B.

Mr. SPECTER. At point B on 365?

Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again. Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.

Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time.

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path of where you ran on 365.

Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B."

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a policeman standing right around here.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point "C," Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Right there.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here.

Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where?

Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building.

Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go around the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming from the tracks here.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was in that position where you have marked C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got him. And he ran up here.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean----

Mr. EUINS. The Book Depository Building.

Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man told him he seen a man run out the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running out the back?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had--he said he had kind of bald spot on his head. And he said the man come back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the police that someone had run out the back?

Mr. EUINS. . No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home.

Mr. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you observed on that occasion?

Mr. EUINS. At the jailhouse?

Mr. SPECTER. At the jailhouse.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you saw about the gun itself?

Mr. EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was coming around the bend. That is when--I was looking at the building then.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it?

Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?

Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much.

Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking around.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.

Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?

Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in that ROTC class?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the firing range.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some of the trigger part.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you say--Elm?

Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I could not.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can describe to us that you have not already told us about?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there?

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us?

Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see was the spot and his hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat?

Mr. EUINS. I didn't get to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short?

Mr. EUINS. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he had a bald----

Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2-1/2 inches above where your hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an affidavit or statement for them, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 367.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a copy of your signature?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want to ask you a couple of questions about it.

Did you have a chance to read it over?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos.

In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here?

Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could see a white spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting here right now?

Amos, did you understand the last question?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is.

Mr. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or told us here today what you remember about this assassination?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over, is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on what you remember right now?

For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else that they wrote down?

Mr. EUINS. Not that I can see.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of the window. Like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up here.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows?

Mr. EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in half of this one.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off with--mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you saw boxes in the windows.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; in this half.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed?

Mr. EUINS. It was open.

Mr. SPECTER. How far open was it?

Mr. EUINS. About that high.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately next to the window marked "X" open or closed?

Mr. EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor?

Mr. SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that exact time?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking it was a backfire, just like everyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second shot, or just when the second shot occurred?

Mr. EUINS. I think--just a little before, because as soon as I did, I looked at it--pow.

Mr. SPECTER. You heard a pow?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the second--when you heard the second shot, when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when you were looking at it?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the noise was coming from?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw?

Mr. EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; over in the office.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it was?

Mr. EUINS. About 4.

Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony.

We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

Wednesday, March 11, 1964

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr., observers.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.

Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr. Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?

Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.

Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.

Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.

Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?

Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?

Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.

Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.

Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. BALL. How long was she there?

Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.

Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr. Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I went over there.

Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on Shady Grove Road.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.

Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave you a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch.

Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that would be just fine.

Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.

Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the first day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you still do?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your own car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still have it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When do you quit?

Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.

Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the same time.

Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the first day?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?

Mr. BALL. Yes, right.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times I use just one route.

Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?

Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your sister's home to work in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your coat.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the warehouse there.

Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot----

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of Houston and Main.

Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see.

Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the right of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do you recognize that area?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. What is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street going up to the parking lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What car is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other side of the fence there.

Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking about--I park on the different side of the lot.

Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.

Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, there is a picture.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked "parking lot No. 1."

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.

Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?

Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right, you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching back and forth.

Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock. Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.

So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine times out of ten I come up right down here.

Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that the parking lot where you usually park?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.

Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book Depository Building in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?

Mr. BALL. After you park here.

Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.

Mr. BALL. Munger Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks and come up here.

Mr. BALL. Houston Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk right up, you know.

Mr. BALL. To the buildings?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.

Mr. BALL. Fine.

Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the name?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the first day he come to work.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him and I told him then no; I had never seen him.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.

Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any memory of the date when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think, would that be close to it?

Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say, as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.

Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?

Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.

Mr. BALL. Shelly.

What floor was this on?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I said "We are glad to have you."

We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going home this afternoon?"

And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let me know."

So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.

I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others.

But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and I said that was fine.

Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a room in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.

Mr. BALL. Did he say where?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the neighborhood?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not know the name.

Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned to him?

Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.

Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time. Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there, you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.

We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do we have more order fillers.

Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you every weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that.

Does it refresh your memory any?

Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.

Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking.

Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out.

Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas before you can get a driver's permit?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14 is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of 70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car----

Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day holiday? Do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every Friday and came back the following Monday?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take it.

Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a car, knew how to drive a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you can't drive a car something is wrong with you.

Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the clutch was?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know, most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down.

And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive.

And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it.

Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you didn't have a clutch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive one guy than it does to drive a carload.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at a restaurant for breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, change?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any money.

Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other?

Mr. FRAZIER. N,. sir; not very much. He is, probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.

About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.

He would say a few words and then he would cut off.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had been through there.

So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that.

And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes; he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like France, he said people in France was more the kind to con the United States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that French money them French guys would really take you.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine.

Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the Democrats, Republicans?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words like that did he use?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy who didn't talk very much at all.

Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch, 45-minute lunch hour, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me.

Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag, sack.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor.

Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys go in and play dominoes.

Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about all they have.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch, brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service.

Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch.

Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the guys I work with.

Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables there and sometimes talk or go to sleep.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch.

Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear him--did he ever talk about guns?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an automobile in any of these trips?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it, he said he thought he would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and forth for work that is about all they are good for.

I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance."

But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so far as I know he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time.

Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had tried out a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth.

Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just like any other bus at any street corner you want to.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Is there a toll charge to call from Dallas to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just pick it up and call.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that.

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."

So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"

And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."

He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Mr. BALL. This was on what floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go to work at eight and I would break at ten.

Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break.

Mr. BALL. It was before noon then?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. That day?

Mr. BALL. That day.

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you automatically just look at them.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only time--you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the only time--other than like I told you about talking about them babies and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title or something like that would make the difference in what type of book they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and you look at the price.

If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only conversation we had.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the ride home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work?

Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just according to how bad the traffic is.

If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty good headway.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did.

Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was staying, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would walk there just a little bit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather and babies, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to the house where his wife was staying?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived, just to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street.

Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south?

Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west.

Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is west.

Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. About a half block?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the same street. Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North side.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North.

Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west on the same side of the street on the north side.

Mr. BALL. On the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west.

Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK.

Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night----

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You brought him home.

Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the next morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually get up, right around 6:30 there.

Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that.

Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually come to the breakfast table about 7.

Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den.

Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a double carport more or less type of garage.

Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to you about----

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say----

Mr. BALL. Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window for me and she said, "Who is that?"

And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I just walked on out and we got in the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all.

Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up and saw him I knew who it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the kitchen window there.

I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on in there.

Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?

Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked down by the back door there.

Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had ever done that. I say, most times I would usually call him, you know, I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there.

Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise any questions in your mind?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the clock was, I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was.

Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back door there.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Was he near the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the other side.

Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came out?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there.

Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time, you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked him up.

Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock to see what time it was and it was right around 7:21 then and I went in and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my coat on and we left.

Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. All right.

When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I said, "What's the package, Lee?"

And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today."

That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Mr. BALL. What did the package look like?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back.

Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.

Mr. BALL. How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide.

Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't----

Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way into town?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street, that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.

Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361.

Anything else said about curtain rods?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.

Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.

Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to the President's visit to Texas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and I was sitting there.

What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.

Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car for a few minutes before I cut it off.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part----

Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD. Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked, the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen. Show us the course that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).

Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the picture shows right in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right.

Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door.

Mr. BALL. Door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent the course he walked. It shows "XY".

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up and see him going through the door there and shut the door.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on Pacific Avenue?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.

Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.

Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door at "XY"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.

Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.

Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston Street Loading Dock."

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Is that the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance door.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the outside door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are looking at over here.

Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk through?

Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to that man over there.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.

Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.

Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with a ceiling roof?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.

Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.

Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see anybody there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Whose door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they run this way.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?

Mr. FRAZIER. Here.

Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here.

Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.

We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we can refer to it.

Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line "AB", is clear, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are bins, are they?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back.

In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window here.

Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here, several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.

Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building, the one you have shown us?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.

Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.

Mr. BALL. The main entrance?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.

Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the garage where we have the truck. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I say, where we keep the truck.

Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, rather?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an arrow going out.

Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders.

Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first?

Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are you familiar with the Depository Building?

Mr. BALL. Only through the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have the----

Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps leading down to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.

Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.

Representative FORD. What time was that?

Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?

Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was the early part of the morning.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?

Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.

Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few seconds.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody I can.

Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the President of the United States and being an old Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did and I stood there until he come by.

Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.

Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL. Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.

Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, I was standing right in there.

Mr. BALL. Right in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there.

Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I figured it was him.

Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?

Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough.

Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL. A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.

Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back near the door to the loading dock?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. Come over here, please.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here [indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].

Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here.

Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three bins.

Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.

Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs?

From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there.

Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or less right out over in here we have a----

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Come back up?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.

Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.

Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald and the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every week.

Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking him home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.

Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.

Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on piece of paper.]

Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning I used this one over here.

Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the shelves.

Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see this area back over here.

Representative FORD. Did you look over there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly.

So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf.

So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down.

Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.

Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.

That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.

Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like this.

Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I didn't see it very much.

Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear to be about the same length?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? Do you remember that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it, but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.

Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364 for identification, with reference to the width.

Was the bag about that width or a different width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.

Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in the lab.

Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to me.

Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then it couldn't have been.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.

Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?

Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them that was entirely too long.

Mr. BALL. What about the width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I know that the bag wouldn't be that long.

So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like----

Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter.

Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the package.

Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. This way?

Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.

Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean?

Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How tall are you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.

Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?

Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say, for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order.

Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building, and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.

Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my lunch up.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days than the days that he rode with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he rode with me?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together.

Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that.

Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.

Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Billy?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?

We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on Commission's Exhibit No. 369.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately, I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?

Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.

Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?

I think that is all.

Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take hold of it at the side?

Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much attention----

Mr. BALL. Turn around.

Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.

Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.

From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches, about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.

Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little----

Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.

Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer.

Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we can illustrate it.

You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on this map.

Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.

Mr. BALL. That close.

Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.

Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.

Mr. BALL. West and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.

Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction.

Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass.

Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.

Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that.

Did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right.

Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.

Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.

Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.

Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here.

Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.

Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.

Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.

Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.

Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an "F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?

Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.

Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness.

The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You have a copy of that, do you not?

Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Will you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.

Mr. Ball?

TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?

Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And your brother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure just the date.

Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2 years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes.

Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of Westfield and Fifth Street?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When did you meet her?

Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts. I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October.

Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak.

Mr. BALL. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the yard and things like that.

Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts' house?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just----

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.

Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work.

So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned.

Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.

Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those.

Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.

Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?

Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.

Mr. BALL. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the places and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was going to work for them?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had the job?

Mrs. RANDLE. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he might--that she said he was going to call over there.

In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there.

Mr. BALL. You told Wesley, though, that you had--Mrs. Paine had told you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. BALL. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something to Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure if I did.

Mr. BALL. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive?

Mrs. RANDLE. I never talked to Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or driving him to Irving weekends?

Mrs. RANDLE. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw Lee get out of Wesley's car?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?

Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee home on this night?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley----

Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.

Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.

Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me.

Mr. BALL. You mean that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After he came home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you----

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and your mother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children.

Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.

Mr. BALL. What street did he cross to go over?

Mrs. RANDLE. He crossed Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. And you saw him walking along, did you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he carrying any package?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.

Mr. BALL. We have got a package here which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 364. You have seen this before, I guess, haven't you, I think the FBI showed it to you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the color of that package in any way similar to the color of this package which is 364?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Similar kind of paper, wasn't it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Mr. BALL. How about the width?

Mrs. RANDLE. The width is about right.

Mr. BALL. The width is about right.

Can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. Using this package as an example only?

Mrs. RANDLE. What he had in there, it looked too long.

Mr. BALL. This looks too long?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About how long would you think the package would be, just measure it right on there.

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say about like this.

Mr. BALL. You mean from here to here?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to grip in his hand.

Mr. BALL. This package is about the span of my hand, say 8 inches, is that right? He would have about this much to grip?

Mrs. RANDLE. What I remember seeing is about this long, sir, as I told you it was folded down so it could have been this long.

Mr. BALL. I see. You figure about 2 feet long, is that right?

Mrs. RANDLE. A little bit more.

Mr. BALL. A little more than 2 feet.

There is another package here. You remember this was shown you. It is a discolored bag, which is Exhibit No. 142, and remember you were asked by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents if this looked like the package; do you remember?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not the color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. But they showed you a part of the bag that had not been discolored, didn't they?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper.

Mr. BALL. Now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look about the width of the bag that he was carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about length?

Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom----

Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be.

Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this part down here.

Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is.

Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. About this.

Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28-1/2 inches.

Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time.

Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, I believe.

Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. I will show you some clothing here. First, I will show you a gray jacket. Does this look anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Similar to that. I didn't pay an awful lot of attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I think so. It had big sleeves.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at these sleeves. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. What is the Commission Exhibit on this jacket?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was gray, I am not sure of the shade.

Mr. BALL. 163.

I will show you another shirt which is Commission No. 150.

Does this look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well now, I don't remember it being that shade of brown. It could have been but I was looking through the screen and out the window but I don't remember it being exactly that. I thought it was a solid color.

Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray.

Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163, now if you had to choose between these two?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one.

Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the shirt more so than I do the jacket.

Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN.. Senator, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I think I do have one.

Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, did any FBI agents or police officer ever visit your house?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. And said anything to you about Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, along the line Senator Cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the neighborhood prior to the assassination of any FBI agents or police officers having visited in the neighborhood?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You heard nothing along rumors of that kind?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. Later, after all this was over, I had heard that they had been to Mrs. Paine's residence.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that point?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.

You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to be----

Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.

Mr. BALL. To the bottom?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the top?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package in the automobile?

Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.

Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the door?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?

Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus inbetween space.

Mr. JENNER. Car widths?

Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a light day?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--I mean it wasn't dark or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall what the fabric of the jacket was that Mr. Oswald had on this morning, was it twill or wool or gabardine? Cotton?

Mrs. RANDLE. Probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion.

Mr. JENNER. That is your present recollection?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be excused.

TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name for the record?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Cunningham, be seated there.

What is your business?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am a special agent of the FBI.

Mr. BALL. What is your specialty with the FBI?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the FBI laboratory in the Firearms Identification Unit.

Mr. BALL. There is a rifle here that has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 139, it has been in your custody, hasn't it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has.

Mr. BALL. You brought it over here this morning?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. And I requested you disassemble it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Let's take it out of the sack and put it before the Commission.

Do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I notice you have a screwdriver there. Can you assemble it without the use of a screwdriver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What can you use?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Any object that would fit the slots on the five screws that retain the stock to the action.

Mr. BALL. Could you do it with a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you do that--about how long will it take you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I know I can do it, but I have never been timed as far as using a dime. I have been timed using a screwdriver, which required a little over 2 minutes.

Mr. BALL. 2 minutes with a screwdriver.

Try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes.

Okay. Start now. Six minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think I can improve on that.

Mr. BALL. And the only tool you used was a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. That is all.

Senator COOPER. Does the bolt work all right now?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them engaged on this particular model.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is the case on this weapon. On that one over there, however, it slid right on when I put it together a little while ago; it was much faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is a weapon identical to the one that has been identified as the assassination weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is the assassination weapon.

Mr. BALL. This is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, have you fired it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times.

The CHAIRMAN. That has been fired many times?

Mr. BELIN. You can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, I assume.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, it comes apart much faster. I can do it for you.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle together in 2 minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; a few seconds over 2 minutes, somewhere around 2-1/4, 2-1/2 minutes, readily.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And I am sure I can assemble it faster the second time with a dime than I did the last time but I did have trouble with that one retaining screw.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything more you have on this?

Mr. BALL. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Anybody?

Well, Agent Cunningham, thank you very much, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today, we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, March 12, 1964

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS

The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray, observers.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we understand you have some facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you questions concerning it.

Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business?

Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.

Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company.

Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but all banded together in one cab company.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22nd of November 1963?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day?

Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker.

Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can.

Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give you another call like that.

Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound bus station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and everything.

Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for.

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy.

Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it says Greyhound, 500 North Beckley, I think it is marked 12:30 to 12:45. Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about 15 minutes each.

Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your memory, Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest.

First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that?

Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this kind of manifest.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when?

Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir, and sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries.

Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where you went, how far it was?

Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested in are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of Dallas ordinance requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you unload the passenger. They are not interested in the price, the number of passengers and the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does it?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that information that is in each column generally?

Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup.

In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty.

Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like this first one, 4924 Belmont and then to the next column, to the airport.

The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $1.75. The next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra passenger or so and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column.

The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off.

The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was four passengers, time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn and it is marked "call."

6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I didn't put the mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to 44. It would have been nine miles I made on the first trip.

Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that day which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is $9.45. 157 units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. That would be 157 units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5-1/2 gallons of gas, had eight pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That is it complete, sir.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the day of November 22, 1963.

Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the Travis Hotel. I have got it marked 16 which is the Continental bus station, stand No. 15, 55 cents. I unloaded that at 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to your record?

Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental bus station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound which is 55 cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, but anywhere approximate.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go----

Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that you took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound or your cab at the Greyhound, don't you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.

Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.

Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?

Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.

Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.

He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own words what he did?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45.

Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes?

Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction.

Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this 12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at 1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time keeps pretty approximate.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the passenger said.

Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?"

I said, "You sure can. Get in." And instead of opening the back door he opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in.

Mr. BALL. Got in the front door?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. The front seat. And about that time an old lady, I think she was an old lady, I don't remember nothing but her sticking her head down past him in the door and said, "Driver, will you call me a cab down here?"

She had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened the door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "I will let you have this one," and she says, "No, the driver can call me one."

So, I didn't call one because I knew before I could call one one would come around the block and keep it pretty well covered.

Mr. BALL. Is that what you said?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley."

Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the uproar?"

And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him.

But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.

Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?

Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.

Mr. BALL. What direction was your car?

Mr. WHALEY. South.

Mr. BALL. The cab was headed?

Mr. WHALEY. South.

Mr. BALL. And it would be on the west side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. Parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he got out of the cab did he go around in front of your cab?

Mr. WHALEY. He went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street.

Mr. BALL. Across to the east side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see whether he walked south?

Mr. WHALEY. I didn't see whether he walked north or south from there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the last time you saw him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know, how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that.

Mr. BALL. I have a map of Dallas here, which I would like to have marked as the Commission's next exhibit which is Exhibit No. 371.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be so marked.

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 371 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369 that were marked yesterday.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369, heretofore marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And 371 being a form map of Dallas can probably be offered in evidence at this time. It is going to be used to illustrate the witness' testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

(Commission Exhibit No. 371, heretofore marked for identification was received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. There is a map here which is described as Dallas street map, Republic National Bank of Dallas, and in one corner of this map there is shown a small map of downtown Dallas.

Will you point on the map there to the Greyhound bus station?

Let's take the small map. It was on the corner of Jackson?

Mr. WHALEY. And Lamar.

Mr. BALL. And Lamar.

Mr. WHALEY. The northwest corner, Greyhound bus station.

Mr. BALL. You have seen this map before, have you not?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I am very familiar with that map.

Mr. BALL. And let's take Lamar, here is Jackson.

Mr. WHALEY. Lamar is down here, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is Jackson, this is the Houston viaduct.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Here is Jackson, and Lamar is right there.

Mr. WHALEY. Well, the Greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Suppose we make an "X" there at Jackson.

Mr. WHALEY. All right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Lamar. That is where you picked your passenger up?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you started out which direction did you go, and before you mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you describe it on the map.

Now, the next street is Austin, just to the west of Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left off Lamar onto Jackson, went one block to Austin, then from Austin I turned to the left again and went one block over to Wood Street.

Now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at Lamar and Jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and the other one turns green as you make your turn at Wood. You just move through traffic. That was my reason for making the turn.

Then I turned left on Wood off Austin and went straight on down Wood to Houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct.

Mr. BALL. You call that the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. WHALEY. Went across the viaduct to Zangs, as soon as you get across the angle to the left, that is Zangs Boulevard.

Mr. BALL. Take the black pen and draw your course along this small map as far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map.

Now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell us where you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars all around?

Mr. WHALEY. I was still at the Greyhound, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were still there?

Mr. WHALEY. They were there when I loaded.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the course of your travel down to the Houston viaduct did you see any police cars?

Mr. WHALEY. Oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle, three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot.

Mr. BALL. What spot?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it seemed to me at that time. I didn't know what had happened.

Mr. BALL. The courthouse is about a block from the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. WHALEY. You could throw a baseball from one building to the other.

Mr. BALL. Now we will turn to the large map and we will still use the--get downtown. Here we are. Will you use--Lamar and Jackson again.

Mr. WHALEY. This will be kind of ticklish because that is very small.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. WHALEY. Main, Commerce, Jackson, Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Do the same thing.

Mr. WHALEY. To Austin, to Wood, to Houston, to the viaduct, across the viaduct, let's see, Colorado comes in off this, this is the Zangs Boulevard, the red line where it hits Marcel is here, that is Zangs Boulevard. Up past Colorado, still going Zangs here.

Mr. BALL. You are going along Zangs, will you go along----

Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard goes on up, and Beckley turns off.

Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here.

Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it. This is the intersection right there.

Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.

Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.

Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?

Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches.

Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner of Neches and Beckley.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. O.K.

Can you tell me what distance that was?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, it was 95 cents on the meter, the meter starts off at 45 cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which would be 55, then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it was almost ready to click a $1.05 when it stopped, so I imagine that would be 55 cents, would be eight-tenths of a mile and then after the first 45 cents it runs 25 cents a mile, because it gets a dime every four-tenths.

Mr. BALL. So you had 95 cents?

Mr. WHALEY. 65 cents would be three, four-tenths, would be 1 mile and two-tenths. 75 would be one mile and six-tenths. 85 would be one--would be 2 miles. 95 would be 2 and four-tenths, almost ready to click.

Mr. BALL. What do you give them for 45 cents?

Mr. WHALEY. Four-tenths of a mile.

Mr. BALL. Four-tenths of a mile?

Mr. WHALEY. It goes four-tenths of a mile.

Mr. BALL. Five clicks after the first?

Mr. WHALEY. 45 cents.

Mr. BALL. Well, then, you ran about----

Mr. WHALEY. About 2-1/2 miles, sir.

Mr. BALL. Two and one-half miles?

Mr. WHALEY. Approximately.

Mr. BALL. Two miles and four-tenths approximately.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go that 2-1/2 miles?

Mr. WHALEY. Not actually, sir. I run it again with the policeman because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and he couldn't come out the same time I did. But he was turning off of Jackson and Lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at Wood--I mean at Austin and Jackson and he hit a red light at Wood and Austin, then he hit a red light at Houston. Where I wait to make my turn until the light is right just after it has been green, almost ready for it to come red, turn right then, then the other lights turn green just as fast as you get to them, go on right through, you save about 2 minutes in traffic that way. That is where I got the 2 minutes on him he never could make up. So I had to go back with him to make that trip to to show him I was right.

Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights right, how long did it take you?

Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.

Mr. BALL. Nine minutes?

Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.

Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you recall the lights being with you?

Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and how they are going to turn.

Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.

Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.

Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners.

Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection?

Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.

Mr. BALL. North side?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley.

Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does that look like the shirt?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.

Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar and Jackson?

Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored stripe. I noticed that.

Mr. BALL. Here are two pair of pants, Commission Exhibit No. 157 and Commission Exhibit No. 156. Does it look anything like that?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't think I can identify the pants except they were the same color as that, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which color?

Mr. WHALEY. More like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or something.

Mr. BALL. That is 157?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But you are not sure about that?

Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.

Mr. WHALEY. I think that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.

Mr. BALL. Look something like it?

And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?

Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket----

Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police department?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you the next day?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after I told my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. They called up the police and they came up and got me.

Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was your passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the Dallas police come out to see you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or FBI agents?

Mr. WHALEY. The Dallas police came down and took me down and the FBI was waiting there.

Mr. BALL. Before they brought you down did they show you a picture?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They didn't?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They brought you down to the Dallas police station?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, I tried to get by the reporters, stepping over television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab you and wanted to know what you were doing down here, even with the detectives one in front and one behind you. Then they took me in an office there and I think Bill Alexander, the Assistant District Attorney, two or three, I was introduced to two or three who were FBI men and they wanted my deposition of what happened.

So, I told them to the best of my ability. Then they took me down in their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger.

At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teen-agers and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him all right, the same man.

Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. With five others.

Mr. BALL. Men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got them in jail.

Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he was talking, was he?

Mr. WHALEY. He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer.

Mr. BALL. Did that aid you in the identification of the man?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for that. It didn't aid me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I saw him.

Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as I have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he is.

Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to know whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a $5 bill, sir?"

When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, sir, that was my opinion of him.

Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that impression? Hair mussed?

Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything.

Mr. BALL. He didn't run?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty?

Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the collar but the bottom part of it was white. You have to know those winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get nothing.

Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone.

Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. WHALEY. What is his name?

Mr. BALL. Scoggins.

Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff branch.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily marked 370.

Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir.

Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by the FBI.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted.

(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. This will be 370.

Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be here and they are not here.

The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness.

Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly.

Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking you to come here and testify.

Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McWATTERS. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a 44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.

Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from 11:52 until 2:27.

Mr. BALL. What was your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run?

Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive in.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from----

Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.

Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would be southwest.

Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles.

Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue.

Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul when you were timed by your dispatcher?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm, Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are assigned a time to get in?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of his schedule.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until you leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.

Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before--now, just a block before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.

Mr. BALL. What did you do this day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.

Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.

Mr. BALL. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.

Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we get all of our passengers going through the downtown area.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?

Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were, and----

Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and Elm, did you hear any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers?

Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I came into town with.

Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.

In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus and he got on.

Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. From there?

Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on.

Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he got on.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe--from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up."

She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.

So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.

Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.

Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about the President's assassination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never did hear anything outside of the----

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been shot."

Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.

Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had gotten off the bus.

Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.

Mr. BALL. At that point.

What course did you take after that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.

When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which would be south----

Mr. BALL. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.

Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.

In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.

Mr. BALL. You went on down to Houston viaduct then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL, Where do you stop for that intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the street.

Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.

Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north.

Mr. BALL. North.

Mr. McWATTERS. On the north.

Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is. This is Exhibit No. 371.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market Street here.

In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the underpass here.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left.

Mr. BALL. On Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go on under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.

Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?

Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make----

Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on Houston Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.

Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot.

In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir.

Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding me."

I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."

And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.

Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is where the teenage boy got on.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus and got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask for any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department later, weren't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What day was it?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d.

Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, did you notify them that you----

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.

Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you?

Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and----

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a different bus.

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there and they told me what happened.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.

Mr. BALL. What makes it different?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in other words, every one; it is different, in other words.

Mr. BALL. You have a punch there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.

Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used.

Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one makes right here, in other words.

Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words.

Mr. BALL. On any bus in Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is registered to.

Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.

(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the--we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.

In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter.

In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point.

Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?

Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25.

Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one?

Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification?

Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before 12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, that is the way they are.

In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here.

In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood addition is the way that was punched on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for it?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out of town, in other words.

I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown.

Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in.

Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched.

Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour, but----

Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that I had issued.

Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it?

Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. And what about the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. The line?

Mr. BALL. Lakewood.

Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and Lakewood with my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead.

Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see----

Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in there?

Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they was all----

Mr. BALL. All the same age?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it.

Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?

Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What about height?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, I have a map here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. All right, proceed.

Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it comes to.

Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?

Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents.

Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.

Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.

Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.

Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance.

Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.

Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best.

Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway.

So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so.

Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40.

Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.

Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?

Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in the traffic----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word of mouth----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That the President had been shot.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.

Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.

Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?

Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat.

Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or 8 feet.

Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone.

Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get off."

Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am the driver.

Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.

Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words----

Representative FORD. It would be on the same line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off first?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.

Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about the President being shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to get off----

Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was.

Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here.

Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can?

Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Sit down.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.

Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it?

Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here.

Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface.

Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. On the step?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.

Representative FORD. Mark that "P."

Mr. McWATTERS. "P."

Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.

Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What happened?

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