Warren Commission (01 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Warren Commission (01 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure.

Mr. JENNER. Yes--but through what source did you obtain it?

Mr. OSWALD. Through Mr. Gopadze, in the presence of Marina Oswald.

And other Secret Service agents.

Mr. JENNER. And what did he say as to her aversion?

Mr. OSWALD. That Marina had recognized this one FBI agent as a man who had come to the Paines' home in Irving, Texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in Dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned Lee on these occasions.

Mr. JENNER. In the home?

Mr. OSWALD. In or outside of the home. I do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least.

Mr. DULLES. And was this early in 1963? Prior, anyway, to November 22, 1963, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct. And that this particular one agent--not the Mr. Brown I have referred to, but the other gentleman that I do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed Lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--I would say this was certainly so. His manner was very harsh, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Harsh towards Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it most certainly was. And by the tone of conversation by Marina to Mr. Gopadze, who was interpreting----

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. In my presence. And the tone of the reply between this gentleman and Mr. Gopadze, and back to Marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that Marina did not want to speak to the FBI at that time. And she was refusing to. And they were insisting, sir. And they implied in so many words, as I sat there--if I might state--with Secret Service Agent Gary Seals, of Mobile, Ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to Marina and Lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the FBI agent there, that this would perhaps--I say, again, I am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the United States and back to Russia.

I arose and called Mr. Mike Howard of the United States Secret Service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. And I also stated that I realized there was some friction here between the United States Secret Service and the FBI to the extent that I was of the opinion that they did not want the FBI at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of Marina N. Oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the United States Secret Service before the FBI arrived at the location.

Mr. JENNER. You mean that the Secret Service did not want the FBI to know that they had taped an interview with Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response?

Mr. OSWALD. He said, "Robert, I cannot tell you what to do."

I did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way.

And he said he would speak to her.

Approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone.

I returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out.

Mr. JENNER. By the FBI agents?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They spoke English?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. It was from the FBI agent, the other gentleman, not named Brown, to Mr. Gopadze, to Mrs. Oswald, from Mrs. Oswald back to Mr. Gopadze to the other gentleman.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. On the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, I arose again, and Mr. Howard was walking across the room, and I stopped him, and I told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak loudly enough to be overheard?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I just asked Mr. Howard to please inform the FBI that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. And, again, I referred to Mr. Howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that I assumed, that they did not want the FBI aware of the tape recording at this time.

And his reply to me, he said, "Robert, do what you want to do. You certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say."

Mr. JENNER. And did you?

Mr. OSWALD. I certainly did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say? You went over to the agent?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I went over to Mr. Brown, the agent I knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. And I sat there, and I spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. I did say to him--and I was shaking my finger at him, sir, I might say that--that I resented the implications that they were passing on to Marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude.

Mr. JENNER. Supposed, you mean?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And that I knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative.

And I returned to my chair at the table.

They attempted for another 5 or 10 minutes to interview Marina Oswald at that time, at which time Mr. Brown--he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me.

I do not recall what our conversation was. I think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival.

As the other gentlemen arose----

Mr. JENNER. Transpired where, prior to their arrival?

Mr. OSWALD. Out at the Inn of the Six Flags, prior to the arrival of the FBI agents.

And as the other FBI agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to Mr. Brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me--he said, "Just cut it off right there, Mr. Brown."

Mr. Brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. He just motioned to him to cut it off right here.

Mr. Brown left and went outside with him.

About 2 minutes later Mr. Brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which I did. And then the agent apologized to me. He said he thought I was one of the police officers out there and not Robert Oswald--he was not aware of who I was. At which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and Mr. Brown asked me if--it was his understanding that Marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and I said this was so.

Mr. JENNER. Was the Secret Service mentioned as having interviewed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. The only expression was that, had she been interviewed.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, that is correct.

Mr. Brown did use the term had she been interviewed. And my reply, I believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the Secret Service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By Mr. Brown?

Mr. OSWALD. Implied, sir, by Mr. Brown.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the end of that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother Lee wished to return from Russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? The information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you had no other source?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your brother Lee when he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. My mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that----

Mr. JENNER. This is while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe at this time she was residing in Crowell, Texas.

Mr. JENNER. She wrote you a note?

Mr. OSWALD. Stating that if I wanted to help Lee in any way, that I had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used in the letter--that I do so.

Mr. JENNER. That you do what?

Mr. OSWALD. Send any funds that I might want to send to Lee to her, to forward to Lee.

This I did not do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately July or August of 1961, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. And she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not.

Mr. JENNER. What part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother Lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the State Department?

Mr. OSWALD. I did not assist him in any way, sir.

Mr. DULLES. He did not request it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not. He wanted to do this on his own.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that subject with him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And did he so express himself?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you offer to help him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And he refused?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At any time--let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from Russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the relationship between your brother Lee and your sister-in-law Marina, in their--as husband and wife?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did observe that.

Mr. JENNER. And would you please state what you observed in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. I felt on two or three occasions that Lee's tone of voice to Marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful.

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Inconsiderate?

Mr. OSWALD. Inconsiderate.

Mr. JENNER. Of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Of her--some little thing she might want to do. I say some little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing--I don't recall any specific incident.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall her reaction?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. DULLES. What was it?

Mr. OSWALD. It was usually silence.

Mr. JENNER. Usually what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Silence.

Mr. JENNER. A silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her?

Mr. OSWALD. Generally, sir, I formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded.

Mr. JENNER. In the presence of somebody else?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and Marina, during all of the period of time up to and through Thanksgiving of 1962, her attitude towards your brother in the normal course.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. They seemed affectionate--both of them appeared to be--and I believe this still to be so--very affectionate to the baby June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including August of 19--Thanksgiving Day 1962--it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that Marina had been guilty of some misconduct--I don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Any kind or character, at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. The subject was never discussed in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. By anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did it come to your attention at any time prior to November 23, 1962, or November 22, 1963, that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Or any other physical injury?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother, in her appearance before the Commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law Marina could understand English and could read English--let's confine it to the period up to and including November 22, 1963.

What is your opinion on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my opinion even now, sir, if I may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the English language is less than what it appears to be. She does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. This has come to my attention since her visit to Washington.

Mr. JENNER. You mean since she appeared before the Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

She does not grasp enough, and by this I mean, sir, to any extent--perhaps it might be best if I compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, do I fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the English language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

I might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more English words than she can read or understand.

Mr. JENNER. And you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the English language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. DULLES. Has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she has not.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Oswald, when your brother returned from Russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from Russia? This is, apart from the correspondence. Did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir, that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?

Mr. OSWALD. None.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? Did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time has she.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time discussing it.

Mr. JENNER. Nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including November 23, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of Marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were members of your family together, including Marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, Christmas of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Christmas of 1963, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry--I misinterpreted that.

Christmas of 1963--Christmas Eve of 1963 my wife and I and my children traveled from our home in Denton to the Martin's residence in Dallas, Texas, and spent Christmas Eve, or the biggest part of that day, with Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Did you remain over to Christmas Day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother present on Christmas Eve while you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether she was invited to attend?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on Christmas Eve, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on Christmas Eve, 1963, of your mother? Was she mentioned?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she was not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service kept your sister-in-law Marina secluded against her will following November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded.

Mr. JENNER. Then you do not--all right.

Representative Ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, I must tell you, to the Commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. And while I did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, I would refer to my prior testimony on that.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps one thing, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. That occurred during the week of December 2, 1963. It came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when I talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in Fort Worth, Texas, while the Secret Service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in Denton, Texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that I requested that they leave her home. And this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. And, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to Denton to stay at my home. And one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night.

Mr. JENNER. And that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now----

Mr. OSWALD. And I might add, sir--I don't believe I stated this. I, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

You have testified to ownership of rifles.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And do you still own a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you own and possess a rifle--I will withdraw that.

Did you ever take a rifle to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire of you, Mr. McKenzie--I have a question here dealing with the nature of Marina's contract--if there is still one between Robert, Marina, and Thorne.

Do we have that contract?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number.

And I might also state that I have just left Mr. Rankin's office where I was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in Dallas, Tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that Mr. Thorne has sent to Marina Oswald at the home of Mr. Declan P. Ford, in Dallas. Tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the State of Texas in the estate of Lee Harvey Oswald; and, further that there was some $7,000 being held for Marina Oswald in Fort Worth, Tex., subject to the payment of $100 by Marina N. Oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with Marina Oswald by Mr. Thorne.

I might add in that connection that I have instructed my office to have Marina Oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of Mr. Thorne's letter, and I further instructed my office to contact Mr. Thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have Mr. Thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of Marina Oswald.

And I have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the Grievance Committee of the Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. JENNER. I take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between Marina on the one hand and Robert Martin and Thorne on the other.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Jenner. And all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced.

And I might also say that Marina Oswald had placed both Messrs. Thorne and Martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that I have likewise notified them since Mrs. Oswald has turned the matter over to me.

And, further, for the purpose of the record, I will state that Mrs. Oswald has paid me the sum of $25, which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer.

Mr. JENNER. And you do represent her?

Mr. McKENZIE. And I do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would I accept same.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a written contract with her?

Mr. McKENZIE. I have no written contract with her.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Marina knows or can use or understand any language other than Russian, and other than English, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I do know that she knows a little French.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the extent of your information on the subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that she knows a little French?

Mr. OSWALD. During her recent stay at my home in Denton, Tex.----

Mr. JENNER. How recent was that? Just a few days ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Within the past 10 days to two weeks--I believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little French involved. I gave my total French vocabulary of parlez vouz Français, or something, and she replied to that. And we asked her did she speak French, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning Marina and any other man or men?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.

Mr. JENNER. And did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it did not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know any of the following members of the Russian emigré group? I will omit those you have already identified.

George Bouhe?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of that name?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Teofil Meller?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Elena Hall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard the name before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Frank H. Ray?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. JENNER. Have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances, and when?

Mr. OSWALD. On February 19, 1964, I went to Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's home from Denton, Tex., on my way to Washington, D.C., to visit with Marina briefly, and on arrival there Mrs. Ray--and I feel like this is the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald. Also, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford's child and her own child. And I had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab.

Mr. JENNER. That is the extent of your acquaintance with her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your information, did Marina ever tease your brother Lee in public?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? Deprecate his ideas?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of sex as between your brother and Marina ever discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including Marina, to or in the presence of your wife, Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. On that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of November 22, 1963, in which you took any part? In particular, your visit to the police station on November 22d.

What I am getting at, Mr. Oswald--if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the time I arrived at the Dallas police station?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. On the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Is there anything----

Mr. JENNER. And any other visits that you made on the 23d or 24th.

Mr. McKENZIE. Other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary?

Mr. Chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may I suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript?

Mr. DULLES. I think it would be useful to do that.

Mr. JENNER. I think this would be a good point to do that. I will ask Mr. Oswald a few things.

Have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the President first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of President Kennedy on that day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe I do.

Mr. JENNER. And the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the City Jail?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the 23d and 24th of November?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. McKenzie has kindly asked a question that I would wish also to join in and put to you.

Having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. That is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in here. Of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as I possibly can the entire week out at the Inn of the Six Flags--and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the Commission would be interested in. However, I might say that any time that I do complete this, I would certainly turn it over to the Commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary.

Mr. JENNER. If you elaborate further on your memorandum, as I understand, you will supply the Commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir, we shall.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, you have read the memorandum. It does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and during that week.

Was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness?

Mr. DULLES. No, I think not at this time. I would have to go over it again and I will do that. But, at this time--it seemed to me, as I read it, to cover the area you have indicated.

I, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. But it seems to cover the points that I would have questioned the witness on if I had not had the diary available.

Mr. JENNER. There is this feature. Mr. Liebeler and I have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. I read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I read it from the same angle. I read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, I was distracted from time to time. I think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the Commission.

Do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence.

Mr. JENNER. It is in the record.

Mr. DULLES. But do you wish it put in this record?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have it recited in full in the record. And as I recall, you agreed, Mr. Oswald, to dictate--to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and Mr. McKenzie will forward the tape to us.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have so agreed.

Mr. DULLES. And when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the Commission to have, or desirable for the Commission to have?

Mr. OSWALD. I will certainly do so, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, Mr. Dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the Commission see fit to be in Dallas in the course of the investigation of the Commission, with a little notice Mr. Oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

And it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. I am not at all sure, and I hope that will not be necessary. But we always have to reserve that for the Commission.

Mr. JENNER. There may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony.

For the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. With one exception, Mr. Jenner. In the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum.

Mr. DULLES. I will direct that a photostat of Commission's Exhibit 323 describing the events of November 22, 1963, and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 323 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Have you spoken to any member of the Dutz Murret family in New Orleans since November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I have not.

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, Marina, and Ruth Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. The cause of that split, sir----

Mr. JENNER. What knowledge do you have of the split, first?

Mr. OSWALD. Full knowledge of the split, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Will you tell us about it? What led to it and----

Mr. OSWALD. Under my advice to Marina Oswald I requested that she sever all connections with Mr. and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. When did you give that advice and make that request?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law Marina would reside with the Martins rather than with the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. This was the first occasion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether Marina would reside with the Paines as distinguished from the Martins, and when I say beyond, it went to the question of whether Marina would have anything to do with the Paines thereafter.

Am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Not fully, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Will you please explain?

Mr. OSWALD. To the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the Paines, that question never has been brought up again. The question has come up from Mrs. Marina Oswald. The time I fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately December 20 or 21, 1963, at which time we were advised that Mrs. Paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. What was the date?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately December 20 or December 21.

Mr. JENNER. Marina advised you that Mrs. Ruth Paine had written her.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had written her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Asking Marina to do what?

Mr. OSWALD. To contact Mrs. Paine; that Mrs. Paine wanted to speak with her. I do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. She just wanted to speak to Marina Oswald. She did not reply to these letters. She asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone.

I recommended that she did not talk to Mrs. Paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your knowledge, is that right?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my knowledge she has not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. She has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or to permit Mrs. Paine to have any contact with her, Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. May I ask a question right there, please?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the Paines or Mrs. Paine is concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And if the Paines have contacted Marina Oswald or if Marina Oswald has contacted the Paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact?

Mr. OSWALD. I am not aware of any such contact.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir. Proceed.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to the month of October, 1962 for a moment. Were you aware that your sister-in-law Marina was living with Elena Hall at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. October, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. One moment, please.

No, sir. I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of where your brother Lee was living in the month of October, 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. Only to the city in which he was living.

Mr. JENNER. And what city was that?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas, Tex., sir. If I might ask, sir, can you fix the date in October, 1962 when Marina Oswald was reported living with Mrs. Hall?

Mr. JENNER. No, I can't at the moment. But neither Marina nor your brother was residing in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, they were not.

Mr. JENNER. From your previous testimony I gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother Lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

If I might make one correction, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the postcard received from Lee Oswald post dated October 10, 1962 in Dallas, Tex., I recall receiving this two days after he had moved from Fort Worth, Tex., so it would be the first part of October of 1962 they were residing in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER, All right, with the exception of that.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. JENNER. I think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother Lee toward the United States come as a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the period in 1959?

Mr. JENNER. I am.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. That is the letters of May 5 and May 31 and those that followed. But that change, and his desire to return to the United States, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir?

Mr. McKENZIE. Are you asking about his return to the United States or his going to Russia?

Mr. JENNER. No, sir, his return to the United States, his change of attitude.

Mr. OSWALD. It was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the United States from Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Was the change in attitude toward the United States as expressed first in the letters of November 8 and November 26, 1959, and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of 1961 a surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not a surprise to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain both of your answers.

Mr. OSWALD. There, sir, I felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the U.S.S.R., and I felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Now, prior to your brother's leaving Russia to return to the United States, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left Minsk for Moscow, in May of 1962, your brother Lee outlined his projected route by return to the United States. He spoke in that letter of leaving from England and arriving in New Orleans.

Mr. OSWALD. I beg your pardon, sir?

Mr. JENNER. There is a difference in the route actually taken. Did you ever discuss with Lee why that change in route occurred? Are you seeking that May letter?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. It is probably the 22d of May and that is Exhibit 318.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have the letter before me. You are referring to the letter of May 22, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. Is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. JENNER. What does it say, please?

Mr. OSWALD. "Well, we have finally gotten the word from the U.S. Embassy and shall leave for Moscow tomorrow. We will be 10 to 14 days in Moscow and then leave for England where we shall board a ship for America. The transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so."

Mr. JENNER. Now, the fact is that they did go to Moscow and then to Holland, and boarded a ship at Holland, and as you say touched England and then went directly to the United States.

Did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in America probably in New Orleans."

Mr. JENNER. He actually arrived in New York City.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That subject matter was never discussed by you with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by him in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Or by Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With you or in your presence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. Have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the United States in June of 1962 to and through November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. According to our records you and your wife, Vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the FBI during the lifetime of your brother Lee. I direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of April 27, 1960.

Were you interviewed by an FBI agent on that day, and would the name Fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score?

Mr. OSWALD. It certainly does, sir. I cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation.

Mr. JENNER. This would be in the spring, let us say, of 1960. I have given you the date. Does that sound right to you, April 27, 1960.

Mr. OSWALD. It sounds approximately right, sir, because I do recall I just started my employment with the Acme Brick Company in Fort Worth on the 18th of April, 1960.

I do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the Acme Brick Company. I feel like it would have been perhaps 20 or 30 days later.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And what inquiries did Mr. Fain make of you? What subject matter, first.

Mr. OSWALD. He was inquiring as to whether or not I had heard from my brother Lee Harvey Oswald recently, I believe that is the way it was put.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my remembrance, sir.

Mr. DULLES. By subject matter, do you mean reason?

Mr. JENNER. Reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't discuss that. According to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any Soviet officials discussed?

Mr. OSWALD. It was discussed not in the term of Soviet officials. In case any----

Mr. JENNER. Any representative.

Mr. OSWALD. Any Communist Party member or so forth along that line contacted me, I assured him I would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if I had time report it to his attention.

Mr. JENNER. You would report all contacts to the FBI either directly to Mr. Fain or some other FBI agent or office?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you agreed to do that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly did.

Mr. DULLES. Have you had any other calls from the FBI officers since that date?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. I think we will get to that.

Mr. DULLES. Are they pertinent?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, they are and I think I have them listed.

Was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with Mr. Fain.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that it was.

Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection of that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. This is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by Mr. Fain in any connection or in any aspect.

Mr. DULLES. I don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification?

Mr. JENNER. Some item of personal identification.

Mr. McKENZIE. Marks identifying.

Mr. DULLES. Wound or anything of that sort?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Physical marks really.

Mr. JENNER. Two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. But first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. The person of your brother Lee.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe Mr. Fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that I was aware of on Lee's body. The only scar that I was familiar with was the one over one ear, I do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date.

Mr. JENNER. That is his right ear, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. I still don't know, sir. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

In that connection, however, did Mr. Fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the FBI that such an inquiry had been made of you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir, and I might say it was my further understanding that I did agree if anybody inquired about Lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and I did know, I would inform him or his office of this inquiry.

Mr. JENNER. Your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with Mr. Fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall being again interviewed by Mr. Fain on September 18, 1961? This would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned--no, he is still in Russia.

Mr. DULLES. He is still in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Perhaps I may refresh your recollection an interview by Mr. Fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. May I inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation?

Mr. JENNER. All that is reported to me in this memorandum is that Mr. Fain again interviewed you on September 18, 1961 with respect to your knowledge of your brother Lee's activities in Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. I do believe that he did, sir, and I believe this was over the telephone.

Mr. JENNER. By way of a telephone call?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised FBI agent Fain that your brother had been critical of the Russians.

Mr. OSWALD. This was in September 1961, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that you were surprised that the Russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall that specific statement but I do not deny it.

Mr. JENNER. It is possible that you made that statement?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the next date is May 18, 1962. Was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the FBI on that date or approximately that date?

Mr. OSWALD. My remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report both occasions to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were?

Mr. OSWALD. She was at our residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and she acknowledged that Mr. Fain----

Mr. JENNER. Did she tell you that, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. I might add very courteously, inquired----

Mr. JENNER. That Mr. Fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of Vada?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes. He inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from Lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the United States were progressing from that end.

Mr. DULLES. How did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe I was, sir. I do believe Mr. Fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr JENNER. Did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the FBI as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not recall that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall her reporting that to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. You had already agreed with Mr. Fain back in September, 1961, to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do not believe it was my intentions, nor do I believe I conveyed it to Mr. Fain at that time, that I would, as soon as I did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that I would notify them. This was certainly not my intention then. It perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to Mrs. Oswald, Mrs. Vada Oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the FBI advised, or to advise the FBI when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother Lee's return to the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to Mr. Fain of that effect. So, I certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the FBI when we did have knowledge of it.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in Russia on the occasion you are now testifying about?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you adverted to two occasions when the FBI interviewed your wife. Was the second one June 26, 1962, or thereabouts?

In other words, approximately five weeks later?

Mr. OSWALD. The date was June 26, 1962, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mrs. Vada Oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I believe this is the occasion that either Mr. Fain or some other agent called the house in Fort Worth, Tex., and requested my wife to pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to see him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex., for an interview.

This is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the FBI had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it.

Mr. DULLES. This was about a month after his return, wasn't it?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the FBI of your brother's arrival in the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion on that subject at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, not at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did she report to you that she had stated to Mr. Fain that your brother Lee and his wife Marina and their child had come to Fort Worth and were living with you and with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not state that to me.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give again the full conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. On that date of June 26, 1962?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, between yourself and your wife Vada.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that Mr. Fain or some other member of the FBI Bureau in Fort Worth, Tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to Lee Harvey Oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in Fort Worth, Tex. I would not say this was part of the conversation, I would assume at that time, as I would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was Lee and his family there.

If you know my wife, she didn't lie to Mr. Fain or any other FBI agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. I might say this, sir. If they did not know that Lee Harvey Oswald had returned in June, until June 26, 1962, somebody was asleep on the job.

Mr. JENNER. I would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. But as far as your conversation with your wife Vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the FBI that--she had discussed with Mr. Fain the fact that she had not advised the FBI of your brother Lee's return.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recall an interview with the FBI, or they with you, on August 14, 1962 or thereabouts in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and I recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the Acme Brick Company and outside of my office as I was leaving the office to go to lunch that day.

The telephone call came through and I took it in another office and spoke to Mr. Fain briefly. He inquired----

Mr. JENNER. He identified himself as Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I had.

Mr. JENNER. And that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of Mr. Fain?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. He inquired as to where Lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that I did not know the house number. I knew the street not by name but by locale and I gave him this location.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell me what you said to him?

Mr. OSWALD. That to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of Montgomery Ward located on West 7th Street in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately three or four blocks from West 7th Street.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and Mr. Oswald for which we thank you.

However, it is now 16 or 17 minutes of 8 o'clock in the evening, and Mr. Oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way I can----

Mr. DULLES. It will be 12 hours pretty soon, 11 hours.

Mr. McKENZIE. Approximately 11 hours and by the same token Mr. Jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions I have asked, and I submit maybe we should start again in the morning.

And I likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but I do know that you have plans and if we can meet----

Mr. DULLES. We will have to do it tomorrow.

Mr. McKENZIE. We can be here at 8:30, if it will suit the Commission's----

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. 9:30 tomorrow morning.

And we will adjourn at 11 o'clock, come hell or high water.

(Whereupon, at 7:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Saturday, February 22, 1964

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present was Allen W. Dulles, member.

Also present were Albert Jenner, assistant counsel; and William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

We will continue the hearing of Mr. Robert Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, sir.

Have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of the FBI called or visited with you prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. And your answer would include any other Government investigatory bodies, would it? I mean you didn't have the Secret Service at this time?

Mr. McKENZIE. In answer to your question, Mr. Jenner, and to Mr. Dulles' further question, Robert has told me there was one other agency that he does recall at this time.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is pertinent.

Or, may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we might go off the record and see what it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. It was Immigration and Naturalization.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the date, please.

Excuse me.

There was one other Government agency that interviewed you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give the time, please?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, this was approximately January or February of 1962, at my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., approximately 7 o'clock or 7:30 p.m. The gentleman had called my home from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Had he called you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us some questions and some background information in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a week day or a Sunday?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a week day, sir.

My wife----

Mr. JENNER. How did you become informed of this?

Mr. OSWALD. My wife called me at my office, sir. And she advised the gentleman on the phone unless I said to the contrary it was certainly satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately 7 or 7:30 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. And you were there?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was there, and my wife was present.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name was?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am sure he did give his name, but I do not recall what his name was.

It was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of having Lee's wife, Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, brought to this country, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. As best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. This gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form outlining various questions that he needed answers to. I do not recall any specific questions. However, I did state to him, after three or four questions, in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald being in the Soviet Union, and quite surprised, I do recall, myself that he was not aware of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why Lee had gone to the Soviet Union.

And I suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact the FBI and I specifically mentioned Mr. Fain by name--he said he was acquainted with Mr. Fain of the FBI Bureau, and that he would get the background information from Mr. Fain in regards to Lee Harvey Oswald.

I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an "ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the Soviet Union to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. And when he said that, what person did you have in mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. That is the person to whom you thought he was referring, was Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. And this was after, as I recall, your correspondence showed that they were planning to come back, was it not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could you give us a little more of your recollection as to the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would be directed to us at that time about Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Of what nature--her age?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any specific questions, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did they inquire about the marriage? That would be one of the things they would inquire about. Because it would be the marriage to an American that would give her the preference. I was wondering if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had evidence that she was married to your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall that specific question, but perhaps this ground was covered. It was just a general background on Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. But it did relate to Marina N. Oswald? You recall that much?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And the questions were directed toward her and about her specifically?

Mr. OSWALD. More so than Lee Harvey Oswald. Some questions were addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to whether you were the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And whether your brother Lee Harvey Oswald was then in Russia, and had been in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whether he was married, and married to Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was he familiar with Marina's name?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was.

I might further add, sir, if I may, that the gentleman advised me he assumed that Lee was employed by the Government in some capacity in Russia, and not having any background or apparent background of Lee's reported reasons for going to Russia.

Mr. JENNER. And did you make any response to that, when his conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did--to the extent as I have already testified.

I believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, I referred him to the FBI Bureau and Mr. Fain.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been in touch with each other?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. These are horribly leading questions--but I take it then his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, obtaining information as to Marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in turn, was about to return to the United States with Marina, then a citizen of Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. How long did this interview last?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 30 minutes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than the typical FBI or Secret Service inquiry, in which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent upon what your answers to the previous questions were?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

I believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions he was referring to when he spoke to me.

Mr. JENNER. Did he go into your family background, your own age, your occupation, and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to the extent of my relation to Lee Harvey and Marina N. Oswald at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical appearance?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course.

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, I would describe this man to be average build, rather short, approximately 5-foot 9 or 5-foot 10, perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. I do recall, sir; if I might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, I requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if Marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that time that he could not do that. And I replied back to him that I guess I would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it was approved.

Mr. JENNER. Have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular incident?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Do you recall that at any time the State Department was in touch with you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's stay in the Soviet Union, or his prospective return here?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; at no time was I aware of any member of the State Department being in contact with me.

And I might further add that at this particular time, after the Immigration and Naturalization agent was there, including my prior testimony as to the contacts with the FBI Bureau, these were the only times prior to his arrival I was in contact with any Government agency.

Mr. JENNER. Any agency of the Government of the United States?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were you consciously in contact during any of that period up to November 22, 1963, with any agent or agency of any other government?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

And I might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close friends inquired as to my contact with Lee Harvey Oswald during that period.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by the FBI, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same day of that interview. That is the one in which your brother reported to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent of any agency of the United States, and you responded--I have forgotten now just how you phrased it.

Mr. OSWALD. "Well, don't you know, sir?"

Mr. JENNER. Now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your brother or by Mrs. Vada Oswald of any other interviews by any agent of the United States Government with your brother, after his return from Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that question, that I was advised by Lee Harvey Oswald, after he and his wife took up residence on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, that the FBI had contacted him and held an interview with Lee Harvey Oswald in their car in front of their apartment on Mercedes Street.

Mr. JENNER. When you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the agents?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was that approximately the middle of October--I mean the middle of August?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of August 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother reported that to you, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had about it--that is, did it come through your brother initially to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had indication from Mr. Fain, when he called me at my office, inquiring as to where Lee was residing at that time, that they did want to speak to him.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And I take it, then, that Mr. Fain had called you at your office, as you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he volunteer it?

Mr. OSWALD. He volunteered the information, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I have forgotten now.

Have I had you recite what your brother said to you about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please state that--and who was present when your brother related this to you?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. In their home, or your home?

Mr. OSWALD. In their home, on Mercedes Street--either the afternoon or the following day of the interview. And he just simply stated to me, sir, that the FBI had been by and had held an interview with him in their car in the front of their residence on Mercedes Street.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection now serves you only to say that he did report to you that FBI agents had interviewed him in their automobile, in front of or near their apartment on Mercedes Street--2703 Mercedes Street--is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the number of the house, sir. I do recall it was at the Mercedes Street address, and I have exhausted my recollection of that particular occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when he recited the event?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any further comment about that particular event at that time.

Mr. DULLES. There is one question I would like to ask at this point.

This is slightly on a different subject.

Mrs. Marina Oswald, as I recall--and I don't know whether you were present, Mr. Jenner, when she gave this testimony or not.

Mr. JENNER. I think not.

Mr. DULLES. She stated that in the later period she had the impression that your brother was trying to break off a little with, I might call it, the Russian group in Fort Worth that he had had a good many contacts with. That is when they called, he did not seem to welcome their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. I think this was to the house on Mercedes Street.

Do you have any recollection of that? Did you know about that? Did Marina speak to you about that? Or did your brother speak to you about that?

Mr. JENNER. Or did you have any impressions about it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have impressions about that--at that particular time when they were residing in Fort Worth.

If I may, sir----

Mr. DULLES. It was Fort Worth when this took place?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Mercedes Street is in Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident?

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

During the period that they resided at the Mercedes Street address, I was of the opinion--and I was present on one occasion at the Mercedes Street address----

Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the time?

Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately the latter part of August 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It would be subsequent to this interview by the FBI agents with your brother in the automobile near their home?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, I would say that would be so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. OSWALD. That Mr. Paul Gregory had retained Marina in the capacity of teaching him the Russian language, and he in return was paying her a certain amount per hour for this instruction.

Mr. JENNER. And how did you come by that information?

Mr. OSWALD. On the night that I was present at the home or apartment on Mercedes Street, I was informed----

Mr. JENNER. By whom?

Mr. OSWALD. By Lee Harvey Oswald--that Mr. Paul Gregory was due to arrive at any moment, to take him and Marina driving around Fort Worth, Tex. During this period Marina and Mr. Paul Gregory would converse in the Russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her time, and for the instruction.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present on this occasion when your brother told you that, in addition to yourself and your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother spoke in English, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did Marina understand what he was relating to you? Did he make it apparent to her?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. I do feel like she certainly recognized the name of Mr. Paul Gregory and was able more or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in the Russian language for his benefit.

And it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to me, by Lee Harvey Oswald, that this was not the first occasion that this had occurred.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, if I may interrupt at this time--you have brought here with you this morning a copy of the New York Times which you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read.

On page 22 of the New York Times, Saturday edition, February 22, 1964, there is an article there----

Mr. DULLES. I may add I have not read the paper yet.

Mr. McKENZIE. There is an article here by Mr. Anthony Lewis, correspondent for the New York Times, dateline Washington, February 21, which I would like to put into the record.

Now, the reason I would like to put it into the record----

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it pertinent to this particular point?

Mr. McKENZIE. It is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, Mr. Jenner. But with the Chairman's permission, I would like to insert it into the record, or make a statement into the record at this time.

Mr. DULLES. It is all right--go ahead.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, that someone other than Robert Oswald or myself has made a statement to the press. We have consistently stated to the press that Mr. Oswald was under oath before this Commission, and that being under oath before this Commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press.

And yet in this article, Mr. Lewis has given some direct quotes, or what appear to be direct quotes, of Mr. Oswald's testimony before this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the record at this point.

Mr. McKENZIE. If I may still be on the record for one more second, please, sir--I would like to further and say that some of the text of this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same manner in which Robert Oswald has testified.

Now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the Commission or its staff are giving articles to the press, then I want to know as soon as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press interview, and I just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do I think it is fair to the Commission.

And if you feel that I am right in my statement here, then I would like to have this article inserted in the record.

Now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Just for a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, off the record we have discussed the New York Times article, and I have stated to you--the New York Times article referred to as the one by Anthony Lewis, of February 22, 1964.

Mr. DULLES. I think it is of February 21, but reported in the Times on February 22.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

I have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has Robert Oswald given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, particularly his testimony to the Commission.

And, further, that both Robert Oswald and his counsel have stated to the press that while Mr. Oswald was under oath to the Commission, and subject to recall by the Commission, that he would not issue any press statements, because I have likened it to a grand jury investigation, and I have stated this to the press.

And I did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any statements to the press of his testimony before this Commission.

And yet there are--I find in this article by Mr. Lewis, dateline February 21, certain excerpts from his testimony before the Commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from someone on the Commission's staff.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I may wish to make an exception to that--having been in Washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of leaking, and many ways of leaking.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, I will state to you--maybe my statement is too strong.

But I will state to you, sir, that at no time has Mr. Oswald or myself made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously been given to the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. I am very glad to hear that statement.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further----

Mr. JENNER. I have every confidence in that. As a matter of fact, I have been with both of you most of the time.

Mr. McKENZIE. And, further, if it has been given to the press by someone other than the people in this room, and I feel confident it was not given to the press by anyone--because I have either been with you, Mr. Dulles, or Mr. Jenner. But I feel that the Commission should investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, I feel that it is reprehensible.

Mr. DULLES. I will present your statement to the Chief Justice.

Do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception?

Mr. McKENZIE. I will identify it this way.

Let me just identify it this way: "His brother told the Commission that Lee seemed changed when he returned to the United States. He had lost a lot of hair, which Robert said was unusual for their family, and he appeared to be under a strain."

"Robert testified that the last time he saw Lee before the assassination was at Thanksgiving in 1962."

Now, I offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is testimony given to the Commission and quoted in this article.

There are other items or matters in the article which Mr. Lewis could have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or newspaper records. However, the two quotes that I have given from this article are direct testimony from the Commission, from the Commission's records.

Mr. JENNER. I think in fairness, Mr. McKenzie, they are with respect to subject matter. I don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' testimony.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you will agree with me, won't you, Mr. Jenner, that they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the Commission by Robert Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. The subject matter of the hair, yes. I recall specifically asking Mr. Oswald about that yesterday. We had not inquired of the witness about that prior to that time.

Mr. McKENZIE. I might further add, sir, that I am familiar with the statements made to the press by you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. DULLES. I think you heard both of them that I made yesterday before the morning, afternoon and evening sessions.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; I did. And I would be remiss if I did not add that I know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you have been most fair, both to the press, to the Commission, and also the witness.

And I am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the press by yourself, by Mr. Rankin, and by the Chief Justice.

I might also add, Mr. Dulles, if I may, sir, that the only reason I bring this up is that I do feel that Mr. Robert Oswald is under strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the Commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has not given any statements to the press nor have I.

Mr. DULLES. On that latter point, I would say that I appreciate and respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the case of previous witnesses, the Commission itself has no authority to, as I understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the hearings.

The Chief Justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss the proceedings.

Am I correct, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.

Mr. McKENZIE. And that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. And that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to take at all times while he is under oath to the Commission, and until such time as he is released from that oath.

Mr. DULLES. Well, I will see that your statement is brought specifically to the attention of the Chief Justice and Mr. Rankin.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Shall we proceed, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, thank you, sir.

When the discussion of the Times article arose, you were in the process, Mr. Oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which Paul Gregory, the son of Peter Gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home and then to drive about the city of Fort Worth with Marina, she talking to him in Russian and he likewise in Russian, as part of a course of instruction in conversational Russian between Marina and Paul Gregory, who was seeking to improve his command of the Russian language. And you had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in the presence of Marina, which you thought she understood and she took sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to where we were?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. DULLES. And I would like to add, as I understand it, it was indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial basis--that is, she was in effect giving Russian lessons to Paul Gregory, and would be paid for it.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was any amount of money mentioned? It was by the hour, I think you said.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. However, I do not recall the exact figure. I could perhaps to the best of my ability and remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $3 an hour.

I do not recall any further conversation that I had with Marina and Lee Oswald on that occasion.

I did leave their residence before the reported time that Mr. Gregory was due to arrive.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening, in the course of that interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to believe or have the impression, that your brother Lee was seeking to break off or lessen relations on his part and Marina's part with their Russian friends?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question there?

Did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his and Marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the Gregory home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It was implied if not stated to me at that time that the lesson was to be given going around Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. This particular occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression, Mr. Oswald, as to the course of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that had occurred in the past, because I believe you indicated that your impression was that this was not arising for the first time that evening.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall anything being stated at that time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove around Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct in my impression of your testimony that your impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least somewhat before this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and Marina, and their Russian friends?

Mr. OSWALD. To the contrary, sir, that was the only time that I recall that any people of Russian descent or interested in the Russian language was mentioned in my presence, and I base my opinion on that particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at the Mercedes Street address in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

I had been under the impression, Mr. Oswald, from your first immediate response to Mr. Dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated or at least indicated--I had that impression--that you had noted somewhere along a point of time while they were on Mercedes Street, some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and Marina, and their friends of Russian derivation. Am I correct in that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe you are incorrect in that, sir. I believe I stated to Mr. Dulles that to the contrary at that particular time they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of persons. And I cited the incident of that night as they awaited on the arrival of Mr. Paul Gregory as an example that they were still in contact at least with that member of Mr. Gregory's family, if not Mr. Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. It may well have been that the testimony that we previously had related to a subsequent period.

Mr. JENNER. That may well be.

I was not here when Marina testified.

It does lead me, Mr. Chairman, however, to make some further inquiries on this subject.

Mr. DULLES. All right.

Mr. JENNER. How old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was Mr. Paul Gregory?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would place his age at that time approximately 20 or 21 years of age.

Mr. JENNER. And I believe you testified last evening that you had met Paul Gregory.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you gain any impression that evening that prior contacts between Paul Gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning Marina and Paul Gregory, had driven about the city of Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of that opinion--whether it was stated or implied, at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Could you state for us a little more in detail any remark that led to that conclusion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific remark that was made at that time. But I was, as I am now, of the opinion that there were or had been prior interviews or lessons between Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald and Mr. Paul Gregory.

Mr. JENNER. That is prior occasions when this method of conducting a lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions in which the conducting of lessons by Marina with or for Paul Gregory arose?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time that they had left Fort Worth, which, as I recall, was the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, did there come to your attention, either through your brother or Marina or some other source, the undertaking by Marina to give or participate in lessons to persons other than Paul Gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use of the Russian language on the part of someone else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. And if I may, sir, to understand the question fully--you referred to the day after Thanksgiving, 1962, as the day that they had left Fort Worth, Tex. They had given up their residence on Mercedes Street in the early part of October 1962, and moved to Dallas, Tex., address unknown to me. On the occasion referred to on Thanksgiving 1962, it was my understanding that they returned to Dallas when they departed from my home in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. You are absolutely correct.

I did misstate your testimony. But up until the time they did leave, were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, at least, that Marina had been engaged, either for compensation or voluntarily in teaching conversational Russian or increasing the facility or use of the Russian language by someone else?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not acquainted with any other persons that perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to instruct anybody else in the use of the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Does that exhaust this subject, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. DULLES. Yes. You may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. At any time before Marina and Lee left Fort Worth to go to Dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living with others in the city of Fort Worth--that is, not living with your brother in their home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald; I anticipate that a series of names which I am about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire whether any of these names are familiar to you.

Prior to November 22, 1963, did you or your brother, Lee, or any member of the Oswald family--that would include your brother John and your mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons:

Mr. Chairman, may I withdraw that question and put it to the witness first.

Did you, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, know of or hear of any of the following persons:

One, George Senator?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. And that name is unfamiliar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Ralph Paul?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. We will assume that each of those questions the name is also unfamiliar to you.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

If you would like, may I suggest that you read the entire list and if any of them are familiar to me I would stop you on that occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Andrew Armstrong; Karen Bennett, also sometimes known as Carlin; Bruce Carlin; Roy William Pike, alias Mickey Ryan; Robert Kermit Patterson, alias Bobby Patterson; Donald C. Stuart; Charles Arndt; Stanley or Katch Skotnicki; Larry Crafard; Eva Grant; Joe Bonds; Joyce Lee McDonald, also known as Joy Dale.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not heard of any of those people mentioned by name, nor am I familiar with any of their names.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know, none of the members of your family, including your brother Lee, and Marina, knew of, or were acquainted with any of these people?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And this likewise would include your wife Vada and your mother and your brother John?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not your brother Lee ever visited any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in the Dallas-Fort Worth area:

The Bullpen Drive-In; the Carousel Club.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, Mr. Jenner. This is prior to November 23, 1963--is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. It is, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I will repeat the list.

The Bullpen Drive-in; the Carousel Club; the Vegas Club; the Sovereign Club.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware at any time that he did enter these establishments.

Mr. JENNER. Have you been in any of these establishments?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. This leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking habits, if any. Did he take an occasional drink--I mean of intoxicating liquor?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular point, I have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. And have you been with him on occasion when you have had alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, or did not have any?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any occasion such as that.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a social drinker?

That is, were you present when others might have been having a social drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any such incident.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And am I correct that you did testify a moment ago that there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an intoxicating liquor?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What about Marina in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. There, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to November 23, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. JENNER. Well, let's take that first.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Nor was I present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type of alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will take the period from the 22d of November to the present time.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have been in her presence on a number of occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage.

Mr. JENNER. And has it been just an occasional drink, purely social drinking?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And----

Mr. OSWALD. If I may qualify one point of that statement, as to being a social drink--during the period that we was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., the baby, Rachel Oswald, being breast fed, and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was brought in, and at no time did I see her drink other than one beer at a time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of milk.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother participated or Marina participated with you or in your presence respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and when I use the word restaurant, I am thinking of a restaurant in which intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry I keep referring to this point again, sir, but this was prior to November 23, 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. That is, your brother and Marina were not in the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it that is not your habit, either?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, the nightclub circle?

Mr. OSWALD. Not that I was aware of, sir, prior to November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, either of yourself or your brother Lee, who have become nightclub entertainers? And may I say that includes so-called stripteasers or musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony.

Mr. OSWALD. If I may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did include myself in that statement, did you not?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. The only gentleman that I was ever in a remote way acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school with me in Fort Worth, Tex., and he is now known as, as then--I believe his correct name is Mr. Van Williams. If I might pinpoint the series of programs on television that he appeared in was Surfside Six, and other western and detective type series programs on television.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted with Mr. Williams.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates of either yourself or your brother Lee who have become waitresses, bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers?

You know what a bouncer is?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

To answer your question, sir, I do not know of any that are personally acquainted to myself or that I would be of the opinion that were acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And the same question as to members or employees of any gun clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes; 1 am acquainted with at least two people who have joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify them, and also state whether or not your brother Lee was acquainted with these people.

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Bill Harlan, formerly of the Acme Brick Co., in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr.--I am quite sure that Mr. Harlan is not acquainted with my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald.

The other gentleman is Mr. Jewel Godi, of the Acme Brick Co., in Denton, Tex., who is not acquainted with my brother Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. I take it these two gentlemen you have identified are fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. Or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know--I will withdraw that, because it would be repetitious.

What kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. Harlan belonged to an archery club in Fort Worth, Tex., that I believe was also part of a gun club.

And Mr. Godi belongs to a Denton gun club of the nature of a practice range.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information as to whether he at any time met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places reputedly frequented by homosexuals?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude toward sex in general?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not have an opinion on that, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy attitude?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and homosexuals?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not of any opinion on that particular question.

Mr. JENNER. And this series of questions which I have been asked to put to you, I intended to include his entire lifetime. And were you answering the questions with that in mind?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I would not change my own answers on that basis.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names I read to you, that series of names, beginning with George Senator, and concluding with Joyce Lee McDonald, contacted any member of your family or friends subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Or any employer or fellow employee of yours?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it from your previous answer, which was that these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. This is not, I anticipate, fully repetitious, Mr. Chairman, but an inquiry has been made--I just want to make certain of it.

Were you at all aware as to whether in October of 1962--aware of the fact, that for a short time Marina resided with Elena Hall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And were you aware that there was for a short period of time some argument or fight between your brother and Marina which may have played a part in her visiting in the home of Elena Hall for a short time in October 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. You have no information on this subject.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were not aware of anything of this nature at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie described at length yesterday Mr. George De Mohrenschildt. As I recall it, your testimony was that you were unacquainted with this gentleman.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear either your brother--were you present when either your brother or Marina discussed, or may have discussed Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not been.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered against or may have uttered against Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any threat.

Mr. JENNER. You are now aware of the photograph of your brother with the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of papers, are you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see that photograph by any chance at any time prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not. Or did not.

Mr. JENNER. You were unaware that it had been taken?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know that your brother had either the gun or the pistol?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or had acquired the gun or pistol?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina, following November 22, 1963, herself also acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect to the Paines?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does not have the antipathy that I have to the Paines. However, I feel confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not contacted Mr. or Mrs. Paine since November 23, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Paine had some ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend Marina when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk Russian with her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not have an opinion of that, since I was not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and consequently started living in her residence in Irving, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. I gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, visceral feeling, related both to Mrs. Paine and to Mr. Paine.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did. More so, if I might add, sir, to Mr. Paine than Mrs. Paine. But still I will include both of them in that answer.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything of Mr. Paine's background and affiliations?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You knew of Mrs. Paine's interest in learning Russian, did you not, and in Russian matters?

Mr. OSWALD. Following November 22, 1963, this has been reported to me.

Mr. DULLES. By Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I read this in various reported news articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention.

Mr. DULLES. And Marina did not talk to you about either of the Paines particularly?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to any extent.

Mr. JENNER. Your information with respect to the Paines, other than your meeting them, I believe you said, the evening of November 22, and later in the Inn of the Six Flags, is based primarily--in addition to that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a meeting of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. JENNER. I thought you said that Mrs. Paine--or was it Mrs. Ford in the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. JENNER. Then your whole acquaintance with the Paines was your being introduced to them, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your acquaintance with the Paines, and when it first arose?

Mr. OSWALD. The first occasion that I met Mr. and Mrs. Paine, was at the Dallas police station on the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask there--had you heard about them before?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. Hadn't even heard about them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. And my subsequent second meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine--and I might add my last meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Paine--was at their home in Irving, Tex., on the day that Mr. John Thorne, Mr. Jim Martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up Marina N. Oswald's and Lee Harvey Oswald's personal belongings. This was the only time that I have met them since the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. DULLES. Did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were taking up Marina's and your brother's belongings?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps, sir, the only thing that I recall that would perhaps be of some type of significance was that Mr. Paine, at the approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over to the side and stated that he would like to know where Marina was staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. And my comment to him was that Marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be well taken care of. And at that time we left.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether the Paines have been in touch with Marina since that particular time, when you left the Paine's home?

Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in contact with Marina Oswald. However, it is my understanding from Mr. Jim Martin and Mrs. Marina Oswald that Mrs. Paine has written a number of letters to Mrs. Marina Oswald during her stay at the Martin's home in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know the content of those letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Marina still has them in her possession?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion that she does, sir. And the only comment she had made to me directly, or Mr. Martin perhaps made to me, as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with Marina, they wanted to be in contact with Marina in person.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, during all of the time that your brother and your sister-in-law Marina resided in Fort Worth, Tex., were you aware of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived with, anyone else other than your brother Lee in their home?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, if I may correct you--you referred to her as my sister.

Mr. JENNER. I meant sister-in-law.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not acquainted at any time that she did.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether Marina did any shopping on her own?

Mr. OSWALD. During the period that they were in Fort Worth, Tex., sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I am acquainted.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate your knowledge in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. A conversation with my wife on return home from work one afternoon, approximately the latter part of June 1962--correction, sir.

It was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with my mother, at approximately the latter part of August 1962, or the first part of October 1962. And, to the best of my recollection, the conversation was to the effect that Lee Harvey Oswald had gone downtown in Fort Worth, Tex., looking for a job, and that Marina wanted to find Lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the baby, June Lee Oswald with her, and walked approximately 15 or 16 blocks into downtown Fort Worth.

It is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her directions, in her attempt either to find Lee Harvey Oswald or return home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that apparently she did not have any other difficulty.

It is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself.

Mr. JENNER. And this was all related to you by your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or stores by Marina?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--prior to November 1963.

Mr. JENNER. November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. DULLES. The diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you may recall, with purchases that were made by others for Marina and the child, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. That was afterward.

Mr. DULLES. That was afterward?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir, I do recall another instance.

In the presence of myself, Lee Harvey Oswald and Mrs. Marina Oswald and the baby June Lee Oswald, approximately the middle of June 1963--the occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for----

Mr. JENNER. June of 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. June of 1962. And this was to my knowledge----

Mr. JENNER. Your statement 1963 was a slip of the tongue?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

And there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that Mrs. Marina Oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is found in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the occasion.

Mr. OSWALD. I remember the occasion quite vividly. If you ever have the opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her presence--and I believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite a pleasant observation, I might add, sir. She was quite overwhelmed.

Mr. JENNER. Surprised and overwhelmed?

Mr. OSWALD. Surprised----

Mr. DULLES. There is nothing like it in Minsk.

Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain, sir, there is not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that her reaction was such to indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I was of the exact opinion she had not seen anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous reaction on her part?

Mr. OSWALD. Most certainly it was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She was not putting on an act to impress you and Lee and anyone accompanying you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This is of interest, Mr. Chairman, particularly the spontaneity.

Mr. DULLES. Was that in Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. This was in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. This is while they were living with you, Mr. Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. How did this arise? Did you just decide--was this part of showing her Fort Worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both?

Mr OSWALD. Sir, I believe it was a combination of both.

If I might add, the store that I went into was not the store that I usually purchased groceries from.

Mr. JENNER. You were leading--you were doing the leading of this party?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And, in addition to yourself and Marina, who was present?

Mr. OSWALD. Only the baby, June Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you going, and you were showing her around the town?

Mr. OSWALD. And Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. And you made some purchases?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did. And she made some purchases. Or she selected some items.

Mr. DULLES. Can you tell us whether Marina had from time to time a certain amount of money for her own disposition? Did your brother Lee leave her money?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge that he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that he did not?

Mr. OSWALD. It would be my impression that he did not.

Mr. JENNER. I would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, perhaps, to other things that you showed her in Fort Worth at this early stage of her being in this country.

Mr. OSWALD. Her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as I have testified, I believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all appearances it was entirely new to her. I do recall we started off in the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you might do that.

Mr. OSWALD. It was a Safeway Grocery Store, located on Camp Bowie and Ridglea addition of Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. I take it Camp Bowie is the name of a street?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you obtained any additional impressions as you made this tour of Fort Worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new surroundings?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. She reacted to a walk that we took after leaving the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping center, with a large variety of different type stores. I do not recall going into any particular store. We were, as the term is applied, window shopping. And she was quite impressed at the articles of clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large appliances at this time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

At any time prior to November 22, 1963, did you become acquainted with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of clothing for little June or for herself?

Mr. OSWALD. None other than, sir, that I have already related as related by my mother to me.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Hutch's Market familiar to you?

Mr. OSWALD. It is not.

Mr. JENNER. You testified yesterday that, as I recall--and if I am incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that your mother was opposed to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Am I correct up to that point?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. Without the degree of that opposition. Was it quite affirmative? Did she make any scene? Did she talk--express to you unequivocally her opposition?

Give us those circumstances, please.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall any specific instance where she firmly stated that she was against my marriage. It might have been little things along that line she might have said to me that I do not recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least having objections to my marriage.

Mr. JENNER. But did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say generally; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Did Marina and your mother stay at the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. In what period?

Mr. JENNER. Before they moved to the Executive House?

Mr. DULLES. Right after November 22--maybe the night of November 22. I think they had a room and moved out.

Mr. JENNER. I thought the witness referred to the Adolphus Hotel yesterday.

Mr. McKENZIE. He has not referred to the Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that is right.

My first occasion to meet with my mother and Marina Oswald on November 23, 1963----

Mr. JENNER. That is a Saturday.

Mr. OSWALD. Was at the Adolphus Hotel, rather than the Baker Hotel, as noted in my notes on page 10, in my diary.

Mr. JENNER. I had noted that, Mr. Oswald. And would you identify the page to which you have reference now?

Mr. OSWALD. Page 10, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Page 10 of your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right. And I might point out at the time I wrote it down in parens--"I believe." In other words, my statement was "I received a call from mother while at the DA's office, and she advised she was at the Baker Hotel--I believe."

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection has now been refreshed that that was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of the opinion now it was the Adolphus Hotel rather than the Baker Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. And then the next day they were moved to or themselves moved to Executive House.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that is not correct. They were moved later on, on Saturday, November 23, 1963, to the Executive Inn.

Mr. JENNER. Executive Inn that is called?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than Executive House?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. JENNER. They went from the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas to the Executive Inn?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is my understanding, that they did.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. Were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for them by the Life people, Life, Time, Fortune people?

Mr. OSWALD. In my conversation with my mother on Saturday, November 23, while I was at the district attorney's office in Dallas, Tex., she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and Marina Oswald and the babies three rooms at the Adolphus Hotel, and that Life magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to Lee and the situation that was erupting in Dallas, Tex., at this time.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Then I don't wish to burden the record by asking you about it again.

Did you have occasion to visit them at the Executive Inn?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. That begins on page 14, at the bottom of the page, under the date of Sunday, November 24, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And on that same day, did they move to the Inn of the Six Flags?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right--later on in the afternoon, Sunday, November 24.

Mr. JENNER. Did you accompany them on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did. I was in a separate car, but they were in the same party.

Mr. JENNER. All three phases, Mr. Oswald--Adolphus Hotel, Executive Inn, and the journey to and living at the Inn of the Six Flags, they are recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time when differences arose between Marina and your mother?

Mr. McKENZIE. You have covered that.

Mr. JENNER. Are you sure?

Mr. McKENZIE. I will submit it to the Chair.

Mr. DULLES. I would think so. I think that has been covered.

Mr. OSWALD. Did you want me to answer that, sir?

Mr. JENNER. We don't want it if it is repetitious.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that has already been testified to, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the days immediately following November 22, 1963, whether at the Adolphus or the Executive Inn or the Inn of the Six Flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the Secret Service men on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I may say to you, Mr. Oswald, that the purpose of asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there was a conspiracy between Marina and the Secret Service to turn Marina against your mother and against your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, or the memory of your brother.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings at the Inn of the Six Flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was I aware of any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, however, you have testified that you discussed with the Secret Service the type of interrogation that the FBI were carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Following November 22, 1963, you saw a good deal of Marina, did you not in those few days? You were guiding her and advising her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you already testified that on at least one occasion, or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the cemetery.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also.

Mr. JENNER. In addition?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. And in your memorandum or diary--I don't know how we described that, but I think variously as memorandum or diary.

Mr. JENNER. I would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary.

Mr. DULLES. In your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in connection with the funeral arrangements. Is there anything else you would like to add to that?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not.

Mr. JENNER. On the basis of your participating in the course of events subsequent to November 22, and your continuing presence at the Inn, and advising your sister-in-law, Marina, do you have an opinion as to whether the Secret Service or anyone else was overly influencing Marina? Or even that they were attempting to influence her?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe that--perhaps I did not get the full statement there. I believe you included anyone, including the Secret Service agents.

Mr. JENNER. Could we confine it to the Secret Service first?

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

In answer to that part of the question, I would say I felt like they were not attempting to influence Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be your impression that they were trying to be completely fair, even leaning over backwards? Or do you have any impression in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do have an impression and opinion on that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state it?

Mr. OSWALD. That I felt at no time during our stay at the Inn of the Six Flags during the week of November 25, 1963, including Sunday, November 24, 1963, that the United States Secret Service agents that were present at one time or another did anything other than to be extremely helpful to Marina, and not to the point of attempting to affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on November 22, 1963, or prior events that she had recorded on her tape recording interview in the Inn of the Six Flags, or the events that happened Sunday, November 23, 1963, until the time she left the Inn of the Six Flags.

In other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at all times.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. As I testified yesterday, sir; I was of the opinion on the first and the second interview--and I refer to the first interview as I did yesterday as an attempted interview, and I referred to the second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second interview, at which time the FBI, in my opinion, kept Marina Oswald in an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is this another one?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an interview.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred?

Mr. OSWALD. This interview occurred approximately Wednesday night, November 27, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, at which time the FBI agents and Mr. Tom Kelley, of the United States Secret Service, left the room that we had been staying in with Marina Oswald and went to the adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. It is my understanding that Mr. Kelley was not present at this interview.

However, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area.

I do not recall the exact length of this interview. But as the night progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state of Marina Oswald at that time, considering all the things that had occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk for the baby Rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own personal welfare at this time.

And I did go to the adjoining rooms, and I believe Mr. Kelley opened the door. And at that time I related to him that the babies had awakened, and that they needed their mother, Marina Oswald.

He immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. And as my memory serves me, Mr. Kelley turned to me and stated he was glad I did that, and I stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and I did it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length and the nature of Marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was quite late at night.

Mr. DULLES. Were you present during the whole interview?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I was in the adjoining rooms, keeping an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth.

Mr. DULLES. Was there an interpreter present at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Was that FBI or Secret Service interpreter?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my memory, sir, that was Mr. Lee Gopadze of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gopadze was participating in the interview?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. But only as interpreter.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion as to whether Marina was or is involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair?

Mr. OSWALD. May I have the first part of that question again?

(The reporter read the question.)

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion to the contrary?

That is, that she is not?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Do you have any opinion as to whether any American security service, Secret Service, FBI, CIA, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, you are asking me of my opinion?

Mr. DULLES. Only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information or any evidence we would like to have it.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not have any evidence or information along that line. I do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. That it is very difficult for me to feel that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely on his own without any assistance whatsoever.

Now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any government agency, or just individuals, I do not know. I do feel like he had assistance of one nature or another, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Robert, that does not answer Mr. Dulles' question. And I want you to answer his question fully.

Mr. DULLES. My question was really directed toward any security agency of the United States Government.

Mr. McKENZIE. If I may state your question, Mr. Dulles, to Mr. Oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the United States Government, whether it be the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, or any Government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or plot dealing with the events of November 22, and what your opinion is concerning the same.

Mr. DULLES. That is correctly stated.

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

I would correct my answer to this extent, sir. I would be of the opinion that no agency of the United States Government was in any way involved with the assassination of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.

Does that answer the question?

Mr. JENNER. Or in any way involved with your brother's, Lee Harvey Oswald. Would you go that far?

Mr. OSWALD. When we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that I am aware of and so forth. Yes, sir; I would be of that opinion.

Mr. DULLES. To which you have testified with regard to the FBI and the Immigration and Naturalization.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate further, please, when you first undertook to answer Mr. Dulles question--you made some references to an opinion on your part that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, must have had some assistance.

Would you please state what you had in mind there? Assistance with what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that Lee Harvey Oswald did actually shoot the President of the United States and Governor Connally of Texas on November 22, 1963--I do feel that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used.

I believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance I had reference to.

Mr. JENNER. This is based, I gather from what you have just said, on the assumption or opinion--I will say assumption first--that your brother Lee Harvey Oswald did assassinate President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have that opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. That he did assassinate the President of the United States?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. On his own, sir?

Mr. DULLES. Did he handle the gun and shoot the shots?

Mr. JENNER. Let's take it in alternatives. You state it in your own words.

Mr. McKENZIE. He has stated this once before, but I am going to ask him to state it again.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like to have that clearly stated.

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, as I previously testified to that question, based on the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that I have read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that I would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the President of the United States and wounded the Governor of Texas, Mr. Connally.

Mr. DULLES. The same would apply to the attack on Officer Tippit?

Mr. OSWALD. I would base my opinion on Officer Tippit's death, sir, on my conversation with the District Attorney of Dallas, Tex., on the morning of Saturday, November 23, 1963, at which time during our conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to him that Lee Harvey Oswald did in fact kill Officer J. D. Tippit in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you believe that would be correct?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe that would be correct.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any conversation with Marina----

Mr. DULLES. Just one point on that.

You have testified that you felt that your brother did have or would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he did--roughly to that effect, I believe.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of help, where that could have come from, who was involved.

I have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist plot, an anarchist plot?

Mr. OSWALD. If I may take your question, sir; in the parts that you pointed out--I believe the first part was to where and how.

Mr. DULLES. And who.

Mr. JENNER. May have assisted.

Mr. OSWALD. The where and the how, sir, I am not of any opinion. And as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or memorandum----

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On page 6--and I quote--"I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair."

I am still of that opinion, sir.

And as to any other persons that I might suggest was involved in any way in this affair, I do not know of their names nor can I identify them in any way.

Mr. DULLES. As this covers two of my questions----

Mr. JENNER. Why don't you proceed.

Mr. DULLES. May I proceed at this time.

I will proceed with a couple of questions I have at this time.

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir; may I interrupt you here? And I would like to add something to my previous statement there.

Mr. DULLES. Please, yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps there is one other person that I feel like would be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and that was the man that actually shot Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Jack Ruby or Mr. Rubenstein. And that would be the only other party that I could possibly attempt to identify that I feel like would have been involved and perhaps assisted Lee in this assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please give us the basis of your opinion?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on newspaper accounts and magazine articles of Mr. Ruby's activities, to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper I recall reading after November 24, 1963, that a period of a couple of months, 2 or 3 months, prior to Mr. Ruby's killing my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in a Dallas police station, that he appeared at the Dallas police station and started making acquaintances at the Dallas police station to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able to move about the Dallas police station very easily.

Based on that and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, I am of the opinion that Mr. Ruby did in fact know Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Sunday, November 23, 19--Sunday, November 24, 1963, and that he was in my opinion paid to silence Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. This is based on--this opinion is based on what you have read in the press subsequent to November 22?

Mr. OSWALD. November 24; sir, 1963, the day of my brother's death. Up until that time I had never heard of Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. DULLES. I was including all of the press accounts that carried through from the time of the assassination.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the witness has referred, of course, to events immediately preceding November 22--that is Mr. Ruby's apparent interest in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police department?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the Dallas police station.

Mr. DULLES. I was trying to get at also--to cover what you had previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination of the President.

Is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. This question of mine covers the whole period of your relationship with your brother.

Do you recall during that entire period, up to November 22, that your brother made any comments with regard to President Kennedy of a derogatory nature or character or of any other character? Did he ever discuss the President with you during the whole period? Of course, he was only President for the last 3 years.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned President Kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or con.

Mr. DULLES. Governor Connally--the same question.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not as Governor Connally.

Mr. DULLES. Or as Secretary of the Navy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter to Governor Connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the United States Marine Corps.

Mr. DULLES. What was his comment with regard to Mr. Connally, Secretary of the Navy, and later Governor?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you recall, go ahead and tell him. But it is covered in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony.

Mr. JENNER. If there was any discussion, I would like to have that. And I take it, Mr. Chairman, you are interested in that as well.

Mr. DULLES. I am interested in that, because there has been some testimony here from Mrs. Oswald to the general effect that he had not expressed any antipathy to Secretary of the Navy and Governor Connally, but rather the contrary. I would like to get your impression of that, what he might have said to you on that subject.

Mr. OSWALD. All right.

I do recall a conversation at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., between myself and Lee Harvey Oswald----

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time, please.

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the middle part of June 1962, at which time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he advised me that he had written to the then Secretary of the Navy, John B. Connally, and that Mr. Connally, or his office had replied that he was no longer the Secretary of the Navy, and that he had turned over the correspondence to the then Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Korth, I believe.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Fred Korth.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall any further discussion on that subject. And he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward Mr. Connally.

Mr. DULLES. He expressed no antipathy?

Mr. JENNER. As a person?

Mr. OSWALD. As a person, he did not make any comment, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he at any time, apart from this particular event you are now relating, at any time prior to November 22, 1963, ever express any antipathy toward Governor Connally as a person?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear Marina Oswald express any views about President Kennedy one way or the other?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time that she has expressed any views on Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall at any time that Lee Harvey Oswald expressed antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall.

Mr. DULLES. Did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the Soviet Union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in the United States was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the letters?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not recall at any time other than in his letters during the period of the latter part of 1959, at any time that he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular leader or the government of the United States.

Mr. DULLES. And that statement would include General Walker, would it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it most certainly would.

Mr. DULLES. He never discussed General Walker with you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never heard him mention the gentleman's name.

Mr. DULLES. Did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he said in his letters?

I am talking now of the period after his return from Russia.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; to my knowledge he did not.

Mr. DULLES. I have nothing further at this time. I may have one last question at the end.

Do you wish to follow up on any of these points?

Mr. JENNER. No; not right at the moment.

Would you take your diary. There are one or two items that I would like to clear up.

Page 1--you speak of the old Denton plant and the new Denton plant. Would you please locate those plants?

Mr. OSWALD. They are both located at Denton, Tex., and they are located approximately a mile apart, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And they are the plants of the Acme Brick Co. by whom you are employed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And the reason I asked you about these is that you talk about going from the old to the new plant, and I wanted to locate them.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The incident in New Orleans in which your brother was distributing literature of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee--did that come to your attention at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that did not.

Mr. JENNER. And when was the first time that you became--you ever heard of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or anything about it?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, on Friday night, November 22, 1963, at the FBI office in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DULLES. You are referring there, I assume, to Lee Harvey Oswald's connection with the committee, aren't you? Or are you referring to the fact whether he knew there was a committee.

Mr. JENNER. Both.

I will separate those. Did you know there was such a committee at any time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence?

Mr. OSWALD. Perhaps I had read about it in the paper and not recalling any significant value to myself I perhaps had forgotten about it.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you the other part.

Had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any activity on his part with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. DULLES. You knew nothing of his short arrest in New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't even know he was arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I did not even know he had traveled from Dallas, Tex., to New Orleans, until that night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Page 2 of your memorandum--you recited there that an announcer--I assume a radio station announcer--called you. Did you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do find the area that you are referring to. The announcer did not call me, sir. It was the radio announcer on the radio.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And what did the announcer say?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated that a man identified as Lee Oswald had been arrested in connection with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the President of the United States on or about that approximate time.

Mr. JENNER. And was that the first intimation of any kind or character, or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, either in the murder of Policeman Tippit or in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you when that announcement was made?

Mr. OSWALD. I was in the office of the new Denton plant when this announcement was made, or at least I first became aware of the announcement on the radio at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when you heard that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat stunned.

Mr. JENNER. Stunned in the sense of disbelieving? You just could not absorb it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to that extent. If I may say this. My own personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to trouble to the extent that I do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, that I react apparently calmly in the face of adversity.

Mr. JENNER. I take it with that disposition that you have that anything in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the moment--you retain a grip on yourself?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; or at least attempt to.

Mr. JENNER. You were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving at the moment?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Then you state in your memorandum on page 2 that you immediately called your wife Vada.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to the phone and called her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her?

Mr. OSWALD. I asked her first had she been listening to the television or the radio set, and was she aware that Lee had been arrested. She stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to television. In her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to Lee by name.

Mr. JENNER. And, as I recall in your memorandum, you immediately told her you were going to come right home.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And you did depart for home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. On page 3 of your memorandum, you make a reference to your brother's arrest.

Would you find that place on page 3? The report to you of his arrest.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, that was a report to you that he had been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. By whom, and by what means?

Mr. OSWALD. Over the telephone, by Mr. Dubose, the credit manager in our Fort Worth general office. And, "Bob, brace yourself, your brother has been arrested."

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. "Yes; I know. I just heard."

Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Dubose elaborate? Did he say only your brother has been arrested?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection that was his exact words.

Mr. JENNER. Did he add, if I may refresh your recollection, assuming it is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy, and the murder of Officer Tippit?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I believe I did not give him an opportunity, if he wanted to state that, to complete his statement.

Mr. JENNER. You have now given us the whole of that particular conversation?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

If I might add--other than that as noted on page 3, that he did advise me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call.

Mr. JENNER. I wish to go to that next. You did call her?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And where was she? To where was your call directed?

Mr. OSWALD. To Fort Worth, Tex., to which address I am not acquainted, but the telephone number is her residence in Fort Worth, Tex. I believe that to be 1220 Thomas Place.

Mr. JENNER. And when you called that number, your mother was home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

What did you say to her?

Mr. OSWALD. My comment to her that this was Robert, and she immediately started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in contact with a Star Telegram reporter.

Mr. JENNER. That is the Star Telegram reporter for the Dallas Star Telegram?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, for the Fort Worth Star Telegram, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. OSWALD. And that she was going to go to Dallas in the presence of this Fort Worth Star Telegram, and she asked me did I have enough money to fly down immediately.

I advised her I was 35 or 30 miles away from Dallas, Tex., that I was not in Arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to Dallas just as fast as possible. And she stated that she believed she would stay at the Baker Hotel, and asked me to meet her there.

I agreed to this. However, this meeting never did take place at the Baker Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. A meeting did take place at the Adolphus?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. As prior testimony--at the Dallas police station, on the night of November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You referred to, on page 3--to a Fort Worth general office, and a gentleman by the name of Reger.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the Fort Worth general office of the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned another gentleman there. I don't know if I read your writing correctly. Bill----

Mr. OSWALD. Darwin.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in your notes?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the purpose of your talking with those gentlemen?

Mr. OSWALD. The purpose of talking to Mr. Darwin was to advise him that I needed to go to Dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just heard--I believe he did say--about Lee, or about my brother, and that I was to do just anything that I deemed necessary and not worry about the office.

And he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the FBI had called the Fort Worth general office in an attempt to talk to me or to locate me.

Mr. JENNER. Was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in touch with the Fort Worth Office of the FBI?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I advised him that I would contact the FBI upon completion of our conversation.

Mr. JENNER. And you did so?

Mr. OSWALD. I did so.

Mr. JENNER. And a reference to that----

Mr. DULLES. By telephone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. A reference to that appears on page 4 of your memorandum.

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. I won't go into that interview. But on that occasion, and all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed either by the FBI or Secret Service, you related the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at the time you were being interviewed?

Mr. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. At this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those you have now mentioned?

Up to this point of the sequence of events?

Mr. OSWALD. May I qualify that question--outside of my office in Denton, Tex., sir.

Mr. JENNER. The office in Denton, Tex., the call to your mother, the call to Mrs. Oswald, your wife Vada, the call to the FBI office.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Are all of the contacts that you had and all of the occasions of interviews during the period November 22, 1963, through the following week, November 25, recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that were made.

Mr. JENNER. Will that be acceptable to you, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Fine.

Mr Dulles, it is a quarter of one. Being as how it is a quarter of one, I know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. Our plane does not leave until 5 o'clock. We have to leave here no later than 3:30. We will be glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience.

Mr. JENNER. There are a couple of things, in the interests really of Mr. Oswald, that have turned up, when I studied the memorandum last night, that I am sure Mr. McKenzie would like to have.

Mr. DULLES. Yes; I would like to give Mr. McKenzie plenty of time.

If the car is there, I can wait another 5 or 10 minutes. But I think that it would be better if I were to come back.

We will recess at this time until 2 p.m.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:30 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order.

Mr. JENNER. Returning to page 1 of your memorandum, as I recall your recording of the events of that day, November 22, 1963, you first learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that moment of President Kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow workers.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And would you identify those fellow workers, please?

Mr. OSWALD. If I might----

Mr. McKENZIE. I ask you to withdraw that.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You don't like the expression "fellow workers"?

Mr. DULLES. You object to the whole question, or just the way it was phrased?

Mr. McKENZIE. Let's rephrase it, Mr. Dulles, if I may, please.

Mr. JENNER. I will yield to you, Mr. McKenzie. Fellow employees.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is fine.

Mr. JENNER. You were at lunch with fellow employees of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify those gentlemen?

Mr. OSWALD. They are Mr. Bill Darwin, the director of marketing of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Burnett Henry, director of plants and transportation of the Acme Brick Co., Mr. Bob Oech, who is the Texas division plant manager.

Mr. JENNER. Of Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. Of Acme Brick Co.

And Mr. Bud Adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new Denton plants.

Mr. JENNER. And it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination or attempted assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. At the completion of our lunch, as we were departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page 1.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, either all or some of you gentlemen.

Whose automobile was that?

Mr. OSWALD. All of us were in one automobile, and we were in Mr. Burnett Henry's automobile.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it--did the automobile have a radio in it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And did you gentlemen have the radio in operation?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. JENNER. And listening to it?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. JENNER. Were you listening to anything in particular?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. OSWALD. We were listening to a newscast of the events that had already taken place in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:30 that afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. And you record the time in your notebook?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--as approximately 1 p.m., sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think we had reached page 6 of your memorandum.

You record on pages 4 and 5--I think towards the bottom of page 4, and the upper portion of page 5--your meeting that day or early evening with Marina and, I believe your mother--but at least Marina.

Is that correct?

In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And just for the purpose of making sure of the record, I gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that you had seen Marina since Thanksgiving Day of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where did this visit take place--where did you meet her on this occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have either or both of her children with her?

Mr. OSWALD. She had both of her children with her.

Mr. JENNER. That would include the infant Rachel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that her second child had been born to her?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been.

Mr. JENNER. And this was the first information you had on this subject?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. You probably knew that a child was contemplated.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he might not.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. JENNER. Had you even up to that moment been advised directly or indirectly that Marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the child Rachel had been born?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not been advised.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter present at the time you visited with Marina; as I recall your mother was present, also.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an interpreter there at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. There was a Mrs. Paine there, who was acting as an interpreter.

Mr. JENNER. You have now named everybody present--yourself, Marina, and her two children, your mother, yourself, and Mrs. Paine.

Mr. OSWALD. With the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room.

Mr. JENNER. Was he in uniform or plain clothes?

Mr. OSWALD. Plain clothes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Paine was not there at this time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he was not.

Mr. DULLES. He came later that day, did he?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a very few minutes after this meeting.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and Marina and between her and others in the party?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete surprise to you?

Mr. OSWALD. If memory serves me correct, sir, I did make some type of statement to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. Did you express surprise?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel certain that I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was Marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that you had not seen before. Was it immediately explained to you? Did you inquire as to the identity of the infant? Can you reconstruct that for us?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly during the preceding half hour, when I was talking with my mother, she possibly--this I am not clear--advised me of the second child. If she did not, I was, of course, much more surprised when I walked into the room where Marina was holding the infant. I remember looking at the infant, as Marina held the infant, and making some type of comment about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was.

Mr. JENNER. I don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or conference with your mother?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And was that--in whose presence was that conference?

Mr. OSWALD. First in the presence of two or three FBI agents, and a Star Telegram reporter, Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter, at the Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Do you record that event in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do, on page 5.

Mr. JENNER. On page 6 there is a reference, I think I have interpreted your writing, to a Mr. Cummings. Would you find that place on page 6?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. JENNER. Do I interpret your writing correctly?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. I believe his name to be a Lieutenant Cummings.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I sought. He was an officer of the Dallas police force?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you record on page 6, that Mr. Cummings, Lieutenant Cummings, or some other--well, I don't want to interpret what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, Lee, in connection with the murder of Officer Tippit.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the first information you had that your brother had actually been arrested in connection with that incident?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. JENNER. When had you first received information in that respect?

Mr. OSWALD. As my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new Denton plant, when Lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, and possibly the President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Page 7--did you, at the time of the events recorded on page 7, see or request to see your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And of whom did you make that request?

First I would put it this way: Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald on that day or evening?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. But you did make a request? Of whom did you make that request?

Mr. OSWALD. To a police officer. I cannot recall his name. He reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his response?

Mr. OSWALD. The police officer who passed on my request asked that I stay around, that Captain Fritz was quite busy, that he would see me later.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see Captain Fritz later?

Mr. OSWALD. I did see him, but I did not talk to him. By this, I mean he was in his glass office, within an office, and I did see him through the glass, but I did not talk to Captain Fritz.

Mr. JENNER. What was the disposition of your--at least as of that day--of your request to see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. None, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Not decided either way?

Mr. OSWALD. I never did receive an answer either way, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

And you eventually left the police station, did you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 7 that you walked to your automobile, do you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you trace your course from the time you left the Dallas City police office to the time you retired that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. You are referring to the time that I first left the Dallas police office?

Mr. JENNER. Yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you retired for the evening.

Mr. OSWALD. Well, my departure of the Dallas police office--I walked to my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away.

Mr. JENNER. About what time of day or evening was this?

Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, approximately 8 o'clock at night, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. When you left the Dallas police office or station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you were going?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any with you, with respect to where you might or could go?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Proceed, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On arrival at my car in the parking lot in Dallas, Tex., I started to drive, I did drive to Fort Worth, Tex., by Highway 80.

Mr. JENNER. You were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. I did not have anything in mind other than I wanted to drive and to arrange my thoughts at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, you do say, and I quote from your memorandum, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears."

Do you find that expression on page 7?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please explain to the Commission what was meant when you recorded the sentence, "I was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears"?

Mr. OSWALD. What I meant by that statement, sir--not being disrespectful--I believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings of the day. To further elaborate on that, I wanted to have some time by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of my brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether or not he could have possibly done this. He had been up to that time either accused or arrested for the death of Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in Dallas as to the death of the President of the United States and the wounding of Governor Connally, of Texas.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You were then driving in your automobile.

Did you actually reach Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And then what did you do?

Mr. OSWALD. After driving through Fort Worth, to the west side of Fort Worth, I turned around and headed back toward Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Up to this point it was continuous driving, except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight or something of that character?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. You reversed your course and then where did you go?

Mr. OSWALD. When I reversed my course, I still did not have any idea as to exactly where I was going. But I did reverse my course, and I started driving on the turnpike between Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Does that have a highway number?

I notice you mentioned a Highway 80.

Is that the same as the turnpike?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Highway 80 is on the old highway from Fort Worth to Dallas, the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway.

Mr. McKENZIE. And a toll road.

Mr. OSWALD. And a toll road.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take Highway 80 in going to Fort Worth?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. But you returned by the toll road?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

I take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you were attempting to rearrange your thoughts.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you eventually arrived where?

Mr. OSWALD. At Dallas, Tex., sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register anywhere?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. At the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? Up to the time that you entered the Statler Hilton Hotel to register?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had spoken to somebody.

Mr. JENNER. Who was that?

Mr. OSWALD. A gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where I stopped to buy gas.

Mr. JENNER. But other than that incident, you had no contact with anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You registered?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go to your room?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES. Approximately what time was this?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10:30 p.m., that night, sir.

Mr. JENNER. After registering, did you retire for the evening, or did you go somewhere?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not retire for the evening. I did, in fact, go into the coffee room of the Statler Hilton Hotel in Dallas, and have a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, I walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down the street, to the Dallas police station again.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You went across the street to the Dallas City police station?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had an appointment?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. What was your purpose in going across the street for that visit?

Mr. OSWALD. I wanted to speak to Captain Fritz, if possible.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 8 that you entered the Dallas police station, you were interviewed or consulted by some FBI agents in a small office.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall their names?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. I take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, did they?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And were all the answers that you gave the truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, and belief, at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. It most certainly was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir.

When did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. At approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And is that recorded on page 8 of your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction when that information was conveyed to you? What were your thoughts?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall if I had any thoughts at that particular time, sir. I did not make any comment that I recall. I believe I just shook my head.

Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you in connection with page 8, your opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the assassination of President Kennedy, but Mr. Dulles this morning in his questions has covered that subject, so I will skip it.

Now, did you see Captain Fritz that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to see him?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on your part that you wished to see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had been told so many times that Captain Fritz was quite busy, and I realize, of course, he was, and I let it go at that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, following your visit to the police station, which you do record there, and therefore I won't go into it further, what did you do that evening?

Mr. OSWALD. I returned to my hotel, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And retired?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, between the time you left the Statler Hilton Hotel and the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. And I might add I did register under my regular name at the Statler Hilton.

Mr. JENNER. I didn't even think to ask you that, because I assumed it was so.

On page 9, you record and report the following morning an occasion when you were in the barber shop of the Statler Hilton, obtaining a shave. Isn't that correct, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you also record an observation by one or both of the barbers, I think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And then you end up that comment, "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

That followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in that conversation, and you merely listened.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you indicate to me the significance if there is any significance, of the expression "but I did leave my barber a 50-cent tip."

Mr. OSWALD. The only significance, sir, that I put to it at that time was that for the first time I was listening to somebody other than police officers and FBI agents as to the past events of the preceding day, and I was more or less hearing again for the first time a reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who I would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not Lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or been accused of.

Mr. JENNER. And do I take it a fair interpretation of your comment is that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction was that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, was entitled to, and they hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And your reference to a 50-cent tip was an emphasis in your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a fair and impartial trial?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 10, please? You record events--you were then in the district attorney's office?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You refer to a "H. Wade." Who is H. Wade?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. JENNER. And what office did he hold?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas District Attorney.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I don't know as I interpret your handwriting clearly. It looks to me as though you have written reference to a Jim Bowie. Who was Jim Bowie?

Mr. OSWALD. First assistant district attorney to Mr. Henry Wade.

Mr. JENNER. On page 10 you use--you make a reference to, or a comment with regard to a conversation which I take it took place between you and Mr. Wade and Mr. Bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too informative." Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do see the section that you are referring to--if I may elaborate on that.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you elaborate.

Mr. OSWALD. "Not too informative on either side."

Mr. JENNER. Either side of what?

Mr. OSWALD. Referring to the district attorney's office as one side and my side as the other side.

Mr. JENNER. On what issue?

Mr. OSWALD. Of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal standing of Lee Harvey Oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that had been--that he had been charged with.

Mr. JENNER. Would you turn to page 12?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference there to a conversation as to whether Lee Harvey Oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed him.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. What did you have in mind as to the subject matter about which Lee Harvey Oswald might speak with you?

Mr. OSWALD. To the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the death of the President of the United States on November 22, 1963.

Mr. JENNER. You were then contemplating your prospective conversation with him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you use an expression also there that you would do your best. Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you would do your best to do what, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. To find out.

Mr. JENNER. From whom?

Mr. OSWALD. From Lee Harvey Oswald, during our conversation or our----

Mr. JENNER. Your prospective interview?

Mr. OSWALD. Our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been accused of.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did you see your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. OSWALD. Dallas police station.

Mr. JENNER. Will you describe the surroundings?

Mr. OSWALD. I was taken up on the elevator by a Dallas police officer--Mr. Tom Kelley, inspector from Washington, D.C., U.S. Secret Service joined us, and one agent, Mr. Mike Howard. On arrival to the floor where Lee was being held, the police officer passed through a glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, I believe signed by Captain Fritz, which authorization was for me to see Lee Harvey Oswald. Two or three minutes went by, and I was advised that he was now ready to see me, and I was taken to a small room to the left of the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side from the unlocked side.

And Lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass.

Mr. DULLES. Did you have the impression that the officers had told your brother that you were the one who was coming to see him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. DULLES. Because you just said that the officer said he was ready to see you, and I gained the impression from that----

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--whether or not I meant by that that--I do not believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because I was not aware that they had actually told Lee that it was me he was about to see.

Mr. JENNER. Did you converse with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. By what means?

Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, while looking at him through the glass partition.

Mr. DULLES. How far apart were you, roughly?

Mr. OSWALD. Just a matter of inches.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you in that room, conversing with your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 10 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. And as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. OSWALD. I do recall to the best of my ability his first statement to me was "How are you?"

My reply was "I am fine."

I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face. He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say anything because the line is apparently tapped."

I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Just do your best.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family.

Mr. JENNER. His family?

Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And, also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"

His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily.

Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them satisfactorily?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were not mine.

Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had Marina seen him the day before?

Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.

Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the family to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say?

Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not aware of it at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."

Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of this child?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence?

Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they would take care of Marina and the children."

Excuse me--I started too soon.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right.

Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."

Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got through to him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was not talking to the Lee I knew"?

Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously stated, very mechanical.

Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?

Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?

Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.

Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of the President of the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to obtain more information from him?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary?

Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr. McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.

Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right.

Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.

On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr. McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given to all of the questions I have put to him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share it for the Commission.

Mr. OSWALD. If I could, possibly, sir, at this time----

Mr. JENNER. Would you like to add anything?

Mr. OSWALD. I would like to make one little statement in regard to my memorandum, on page 12.

Mr. JENNER. Proceed.

Mr. OSWALD. In relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as it is now, as recorded on page 12, "Intentions then as now was to find out the truth and nothing else."

Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

I have one question, only one.

You testified, I believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at the airport, upon his return from the Soviet Union, that he seemed somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk with him.

Do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances where he appeared to desire publicity?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that I felt like possibly he did want publicity. At later dates, at my home, in Fort Worth, Tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my home.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one further thing?

What is your religion?

Mr. OSWALD. I was raised in the Lutheran religion, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And were all three of you boys so reared?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you steady churchgoers? Or were you churchgoers at all?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we were.

Mr. JENNER. All three of you?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were.

Mr. JENNER. I have nothing further.

Mr. DULLES. I want to join Mr. Jenner in expressing to you and your counsel, Mr. McKenzie, our thanks for your full and I believe frank testimony. I think you have been very helpful to us. I wish to thank you for it.

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. And we hope that we have been of some help.

Mr. JENNER. You have.

Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that statement, and likewise, Mr. Jenner, I appreciate on behalf of myself and Mr. Oswald your statement for the record.

I only have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman, if I may, sir.

Mr. DULLES. These are to be put to your client?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir. Although I will say this at this time--that the Chair has very generously, and Mr. Jenner likewise, granted me the opportunity to question or ask Mr. Oswald questions as we proceeded along.

Robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, and I believe it is Commission Exhibit No. 277, which contract is dated December 9, 1963, and it is signed by Marina N. Oswald and yourself, and approved as to form by John M. Thorne, Attorney, and James H. Martin. In this contract, it provides that Marina Oswald has appointed you as an assistant business manager to Mr. Martin. And in the last paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that she has employed the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys-at-law, and further agreed that their services will be available at all times to yourself and that you will use same as required by you.

Now, my question to you is this: Have you ever at any time employed Mr. John M. Thorne to represent you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has Mr. Thorne ever represented you in any capacity?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he has not.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.

Mr. DULLES. May I just ask one question?

Mr. McKenzie now is your appointed lawyer?

Mr. OSWALD. He is my selected lawyer.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has Marina N. Oswald told you of any trips that Lee took, or cities that he visited in Russia, other than Moscow, Minsk, or the hunting trip he took while he was in Russia reported in your diary? Or reported not in your diary, but reported in the letters to you?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know of any cities or any places that he might have gone in Russia, other than the two cities that I have named, and the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which has been introduced into evidence?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not aware of any other cities.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Marina N. Oswald have either June Oswald, her two-year-old child, or Rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your knowledge?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she has.

Mr. McKENZIE. And where was that, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. It is my understanding that this took place in Dallas, Tex., some time in the year of 1963, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking now of June?

Mr. OSWALD. I am speaking now of June.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has the baby Rachel been baptized as of this time?

Mr. OSWALD. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what faith June was baptized in? By faith I refer to what particular church or denomination.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, this was the Greek Orthodox Church.

Mr. McKENZIE. From your acquaintance with Marina Oswald, and based on your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider and believe that Marina N. Oswald is a Christian and believes in the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Mr. OSWALD. I do, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has she professed such faith to you?

Mr. OSWALD. Not directly, sir--only by implication, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based on your discussions and observations of Marina Oswald, as to whether or not Marina N. Oswald is a Communist or a Soviet agent, either now or at any time since you met her at Dallas, Love Field, in June of 1962?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not believe that she is any of those things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, do you think she is a Communist?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at this time or since she arrived in this country?

Mr. OSWALD. I am of the opinion that she is not, based on my observations of her reactions and her conversations with me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, have I or has anyone at any time coached or briefed you--and if you don't understand what I mean by the word "coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before this Commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use conjecture?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; you have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Has anyone?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you told the Commission----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the FBI, or the Secret Service or any other Federal agency?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And the same would apply to any State agency of Texas?

Mr. OSWALD. Sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his position with any government agency or individual.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you told the Commission during the hearings here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, or the facts as you know them now?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. And have you expressed opinions or speculated only when the Commission or Mr. Jenner or myself have asked you to do so?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you testified, Mr. Oswald, truthfully to the best of your recollection in each instance?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. And in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the Chairman's permission to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your attention?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.

Mr. DULLES. Well, could I supplement that? In the event that you, yourself, find any mistakes--I think you said if it was called to his attention----

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I certainly will.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add here--I hope that that will be looked over, the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any corrections within a reasonable length of time.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, Mr. Chairman, we will do so.

Mr. JENNER. May I say in that connection, Mr. McKenzie, if you could have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive.

Mr. McKENZIE. We cannot do it today, because we won't get to Dallas until late this evening. And I am going to church tomorrow and teach Sunday school and be with my children.

Mr. OSWALD. And I with mine, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. I will make arrangements the first of the week to have it done.

Mr. JENNER. Send it to Mr. Rankin.

Mr. McKENZIE. I shall.

If you receive from any source any further documentary information or any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this Commission, do you now ask the Commission's approval and permission to deliver such documents or information, if any, to the FBI, so that the information may be immediately forwarded to the Commission to assist in preparing its final report?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. DULLES. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like information or documents which I may receive, discover or otherwise have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I most certainly do.

Mr. JENNER. Here, again, Mr. McKenzie, if anything is delivered, would you have it delivered to Mr. Rankin, rather than to me?

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any other form of welfare aid?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. And I refer there, sir, to both the Federal Government aid programs and likewise any aid program of the State of Texas or the State of Louisiana.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct--or any other State of the United States.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that you have previously testified to this, but I want to make it absolutely clear.

Do you now believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was at any time an agent of any agency of the United States Government, from the time that he departed for Russia, until the day of his death on November 24, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not believe that he was an agent of any government.

Mr. McKENZIE. Prior to November 22, 1963, did you know of any activities of Lee Harvey Oswald relative to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or his arrest in New Orleans, La.?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Oswald, what has been your position insofar as the press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of November 22, 1963?

Mr. OSWALD. My position with any news media, whether it be the newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no comment, and the only comment I ever made to any of them, at a very early date, was that I would abide by the decision of the Commission which is now known as the Warren Committee.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement to the press at any time?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall any statements made by Marina N. Oswald expressing sympathy for President's family?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. And if you will, state the source of your recollection and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any statement to that effect to yourself.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. To the best of my recollection, this was first done on Monday, November 25, 1963, at the Inn of the Six Flags, at Arlington, Tex., as Marina and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the President of the United States.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was there anyone else present at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; there were other people in the room. Whether or not they overheard our conversation, I do not know, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You observed that on television, I gather?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were there any Secret Service agents there at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were they in the room with you and Marina Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. McKENZIE. And did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which she might have said?

Mr. OSWALD. It is possible that they did, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this Commission?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified that you have not given any statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this Commission.

Since arriving in Washington, and since you have been sworn under oath before the Commission, have you given any statement to the press, other than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe at one time I did say thank you. Other than that, sir, I have not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, have you read an article here in the New York Times of Saturday, February 22, 1964, on page 22 of the first section, entitled, "Russian training of Oswald hinted"?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know Mr. Anthony Lewis?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, sir.

Have you ever talked with Mr. Lewis?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, you have testified this afternoon following our lunch break that you visited Lee Oswald in the Dallas County Jail. Do you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you previously testified to that before the Commission, to your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. To my recollection, I believe we at least touched on that during our first session on February 20, 1963.

Mr. McKENZIE. When you were in the jail--and I believe it is in the sixth floor of the Dallas County Jail--I mean the Dallas City Jail--talking with your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ask him at that time if he had committed the crime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. McKENZIE. You did ask him that question?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say?

Mr. OSWALD. I put it to him as stated in my diary, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Identify the page, please.

Mr. OSWALD. On page 12, "I do not recall everything he said. I did try to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill Police Officer Tippit and possibly the President. To this he replied 'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'"

Mr. JENNER. Is that all he said? He said nothing else?

Mr. OSWALD. To that----

Mr. JENNER. In response to you?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. At no time when you interviewed him over the telephone while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny either that he had shot Officer Tippit or that he shot the President?

Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark that you have recorded in your memorandum?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. In other words, Mr. Oswald, when you were talking there with your brother, in the city jail of Dallas, he did not deny that he had killed Officer Tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated President Kennedy?

Mr. OSWALD. He did not admit to anything, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't deny anything?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. McKENZIE. Have you, or haven't you told this Commission that you believed a denial?

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie, I don't understand that question.

Mr. McKENZIE. It says in this article that he told the Commission that he believed the denial.

Since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my recollection.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct.

Again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald, did kill Mr. Tippit and assassinated President Kennedy, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. Purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought to my attention or that I have read.

Mr. McKENZIE. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one question?

Mr. Oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the sixth floor of the Dallas--is that Dallas County?

Mr. McKENZIE. No; it is Dallas City Jail.

Mr. JENNER. Dallas City Jail--had I had any conversation with you at all on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. That will then conclude the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, with the understanding that the Commission might later wish to recall him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles--is he now released from his oath to the Commission, subject to recall and being resworn?

Mr. DULLES. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. That is correct. That is my understanding.

In any event, I so agree, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.

I would like to state to the Commission one further thing, Mr. Dulles, if I may. We very much appreciate, and by "we" I mean myself as counsel, and Mr. Oswald as a witness, the manner in which the Commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of Mr. Oswald. We further appreciate the opportunity to be in Washington and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in shedding some light that will assist this Commission in making its final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known to the President of the United States to use at his discretion.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Mr. JENNER. May I ask one more question?

Up until this afternoon when I questioned you, possibly there might have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not participate in the shooting of Officer Tippit or the assassination of President Kennedy, had I had any conversation with you on that subject?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I believe you had.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was on the first session, during the first session on Wednesday, February 20, 1964.

Mr. JENNER. Was it in this room?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is all I meant. I had no separate--no conversation with you on the subject other than as I might have put a question to you in the presence of the Commission.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. And a part of the record.

Mr. JENNER. And as part of the record; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. We will adjourn.

(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, February 27, 1964

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN

The President's Commission met 9:25 a.m. on February 27, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Paul W. Leech, counsel to James Herbert Martin; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, observers; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Let the record show that Mr. Martin, first that Commissioners Dulles and Ford and I are present.

Mr. Martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. LEECH. Paul Leech.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Leech, I understand you are a partner of Mr. Thorne who was here representing Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, I will just read an opening statement to you that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each time we convene.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130 appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137 which authorizes the Commission, or any member of the Commission, or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. James Herbert Martin who has acted as the business manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald, the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. In view of Mr. Martin's close association with Mrs. Oswald it is the intention of this Commission to ask Mr. Martin questions concerning this association and any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. Mr. Martin has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130 and Congressional Resolution S.J. Res. 137 which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of evidence.

I should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated February 22, 1964, to Mr. Martin from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mr. Martin:

"Confirming discussions between the staff of this Commission and John M. Thorne, Esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this Commission at 9:00 a.m., on February 27, 1964, at Room 400, 200 Maryland Avenue, NE., Washington, D.C., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with Mrs. Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald.

"You are hereby requested to produce before this Commission at that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to your association with Marina Oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald including, but not limited to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to (1) your business dealings with Marina Oswald, (2) your activities as Marina Oswald's business representative, (3) Marina Oswald's business dealings with others, (4) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal history or the assassination of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and (5) your dealings with Marina Oswald in connection with her appearance before this Commission.

"The Commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses in connection with your appearance before the Commission, and the necessary details will be arranged when you are here.

"Attached herewith are copies of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, S.J. Res. 137--88th Cong., 1st Session, and the rules of this Commission in connection with hearings conducted for the purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence."

I assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter?

Mr. LEECH. Yes, we did.

THE CHAIRMAN. I will not be able to be here at all times today because we have, we are hearing arguments in the Court at 10 o'clock and I must leave to be there, but Mr. Dulles anticipates being here all day so in my absence he will conduct hearings.

Congressman Ford has some unfinished business at the Congress as I have at the Court so he probably will not be here all through the day.

Mr. Martin, will you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the Commission to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARTIN. I do.

Mr. LEECH. Your Honor, who are these other gentlemen here. I haven't been introduced to them.

The CHAIRMAN. This is Mr. Charles Rhyne, who represents the American Bar Association.

Mr. LEECH. Former president of the American Bar Association?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, and Mr. Murray who is also in the Public Defender's office of the District of Columbia.

Mr. RANKIN. He represents Mr. Walter Craig, too.

The CHAIRMAN. He and Mr. Rhyne represent Mr. Walter Craig.

Mr. LEECH. Who is that?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Craig is the President of the Bar Association and was asked to act in order to protect or advise the Commission as to any interests of Lee H. Oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in the paper and so forth.

Mr. LEECH. You represent the man from Arizona?

Mr. RHYNE. Walter E. Craig, President of the American Bar Association.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Storey is the representative of the Attorney General of Texas.

Mr. LEECH. He is Dean of the Southern Methodist Law School.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, this is Professor Redlich of our staff. And this is the reporter.

All right, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

Will you proceed, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Leech, does the reporter have your full name?

Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; he does.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, will you tell us your name, please?

Mr. MARTIN. James Herbert Martin.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MARTIN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you lived there?

Mr. MARTIN. Since 1956.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. MARTIN. Hotel executive.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you now connected with the Six Flags Motel?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you at one time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And during what period?

Mr. MARTIN. From May of 1962 until January 1, 1964.

Mr. RANKIN. What was your position with that institution?

Mr. MARTIN. Resident manager.

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at the Six Flags Inn, did you become acquainted with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. About when was the first time that you met her?

Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was November 24.

Mr. RANKIN. Of what year?

Mr. MARTIN. 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. And will you tell us how that acquaintance started?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was called by the Tarrant County sheriff on Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Lew Evans.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. About 11 o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room where they could question the Oswald family. I told them they could have it, and about four o'clock, I guess, four or four-thirty, I don't know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave them several rooms to accommodate the family.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you introduced to Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't believe I was ever really introduced to her.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you come to know her then?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, just through association.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you know the county sheriff before that?

Mr. MARTIN. Vaguely, not to any great extent.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any particular reason why he chose your establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Because of the central location between Dallas and Fort Worth and the isolation of it.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time who came to stay with you at the Six Flags Inn, Marina and some of her family?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina and the two children and Robert and Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they have several suites there?

Mr. MARTIN. They had one room, well, one suite, room 423 and 424 and then we gave them two other rooms for the Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county sheriff about how this would be handled?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Secret Service.

Mr. RANKIN. Who, for the Secret Service?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, Charles Kunkel, and Howard--I can't remember his first name.

Mr. RANKIN. Secret Service man?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was this arrangement made?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, down in the room in the suite.

Mr. RANKIN. There at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the three of you were there together, were you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, there were also Arlington police officers and several other Secret Service men.

Mr. RANKIN. Who participated in the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know who else was in the conversation. It was primarily between Kunkel and Howard and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What was said in regard to this arrangement at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, they said that they would need these rooms to accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the price and who would make payment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. They said that the Government would take care of the room rate on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors or did you make the decision at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I made the decision.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you had any prior dealings with the Secret Service people before that?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did Marguerite Oswald stay there?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe she left on Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. What day?

Mr. MARTIN. Or maybe Thursday. Would be the 28th or 29th, I am not certain as to the exact date.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any incidents where Marguerite Oswald sought to leave prior to the Thursday or Friday that she left?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't recall anything like that.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever assisted the local police officers in any other way at your Six Flags Inn before that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In a general way what was the nature of that assistance.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I can't recall any specific instances. I know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. I don't know of any particular incidents other than----

Mr. RANKIN. Would you describe briefly just where these rooms were in your Inn and where the Secret Service were compared with Marina Oswald's rooms?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Marina Oswald was in Rooms 423 and 424, which were connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the motel. And then the Secret Service had 422 and 421 also. They were rooms next door to it, but not connecting.

Mr. RANKIN. After Marina first came there did the Secret Service have someone on duty while she was at the Six Flags?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. All the time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who that was?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--well, I remember his first name now, Mike Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. They seemed to change quite frequently.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they have someone there 24 hours of the day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. During this early period did you ever talk to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No, except to say hello.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether she talked English much at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. From all appearances, she didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone visit you while she was there at the Six Flags during this early period that you recall?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marina and her family to come to your home for Thanksgiving?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how that happened?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it just happened. I don't know, I think I asked Robert if he would like to come out for dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. They weren't going to have a very happy Thanksgiving, and living in those rooms was pretty cramped.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this that you asked Robert?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe on Wednesday.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you include Robert and his wife as well as Marina and her family in the invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert's wife wasn't there, but I included Robert. He came out to the house also.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina then come to your house for Thanksgiving?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who all came at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, there were Marina and June Lee, and Robert, Charlie Kunkel, and one Arlington police officer. I don't recall his name.

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day did they come?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you invite Marguerite Oswald to Thanksgiving dinner at that time, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No. As I recall I just asked, I believe I just asked Robert if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to come.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean by that that you included Marguerite Oswald in your invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think I named her. I don't know if she had left by then.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Then did you at some time discuss with Marina the possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the Six Flags Inn?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I discussed it with Secret Service first.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Thursday or Friday.

Mr. RANKIN. Before this Thanksgiving dinner or afterwards?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I know the Secret Service made a statement that they were quite concerned as to where Marina would go after she left the Inn. They had no place to put her and they had no idea where she was going to go.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall when they made that statement?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was Wednesday or Thursday.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time did you say anything about that?

Mr. MARTIN. I told them that if they couldn't find any place for her that I would be glad to take them into my home.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about what compensation you would receive for that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no compensation considered.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that idea with Marina at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No. They, the Secret Service told Robert about it, and----

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. Because he told me they had. And then Robert thanked me and said that it would work out all right.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions about selling any rights to Marina's stories or anything of that character?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. With any media?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to make this offer?

Mr. MARTIN. I felt sorry for her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you limit the offer to Marina and her children?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any talk at that time about Robert living at your home, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Anything about Marguerite living there?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission briefly your home, how the layout of it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, dining room, den and kitchen, two baths.

Mr. RANKIN. All of it on the same floor?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from the rest of the house?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, as you come in the front door you go through one end of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along the hall.

Mr. RANKIN. And is yours and Mrs. Martin's bedroom at the end of the hall?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Does it have a private bath associated with that suite?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then where was Marina's bedroom from yours?

Mr. MARTIN. The next room.

Mr. RANKIN. And where was the bath that she used?

Mr. MARTIN. Right across the hall from it.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after Marina's room right next to hers?

Mr. MARTIN. Is a children's bedroom.

Mr. RANKIN. That was the closest one to the living room, is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. About how large was your bedroom?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is about 14 by, maybe 14 by 14, 16.

Mr. RANKIN. How large was Marina's room?

Mr. MARTIN. About 11 by 13.

Mr. RANKIN. And the children's room?

Mr. MARTIN. About the same size.

Mr. RANKIN. What children do you have?

Mr. MARTIN. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 12-year-old boy and a 6-year-old girl.

Mr. RANKIN. And they are all living at home?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And they have been throughout this period, have they?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed the assassination with Marina at all prior to the time she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When did the donations for Marina and her children start to come in, do you recall the date?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it before she came to live with you?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, I didn't--I think it started after she came into the house.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, I am going to retire to my Court work and Mr. Dulles, will you conduct the hearing? If you are still in session I will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, I am very glad to have seen you, both of you. Give Mr. Thorne my regards, please.

(At this point, the Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Will you proceed, please.

Mr. RANKIN. When did the idea of your being Marina's business manager first come up.

Mr. MARTIN. It was after the first of December. She had been there about 3 or 4 days, I guess.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 1963?

Mr. MARTIN. 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us how it came up?

Mr. MARTIN. One of the Secret Service agents suggested that I get an attorney for Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this conversation occur?

Mr. MARTIN. In the den.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was there?

Mr. MARTIN. I think Marina was there.

Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day, do you recall?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say that in English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know whether Marina understood it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, he had discussed it with her.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, he was talking about it to her about something in Russian.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he turned to you, did he?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer for her?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told him I would be happy to get one for her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. John Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you happen to select John Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. I had known him from association at the Inn.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he ever acted as your attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Just a passing acquaintance.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss with Marina the qualifications of this attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about it to Mr. Gopadze?

Mr. MARTIN. I, like I probably mentioned, John had handled some movie work and he would probably know something about the area in which we were talking.

Mr. RANKIN. After you had made the suggestion of Mr. Thorne as a lawyer did you do anything about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I called Mr. Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. On the telephone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?

Mr. MARTIN. He came over, I believe, the next day and talked to Marina and Lee Gopadze and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he talk to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, through Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. As an interpreter?

Mr. MARTIN. As an interpreter.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Gopadze is fluent in both Russian and English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you tell what Mr. Gopadze said to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the nature of this retainer with Mr. Thorne at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't understand the question.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed as her lawyer?

Mr. MARTIN. Handling all her legal work.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you say anything about what the legal work would involve, the kind of work it would be?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so at the time. I may have mentioned something about her story or something like that. I don't recall the conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the donations at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss what he would be paid by way of compensation?

Mr. MARTIN. Not at that time. It was later.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said by you or Mr. Thorne about his qualifications to act as her attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

Mr. RANKIN. Were formal arrangements made about the employment of Mr. Thorne as counsel for Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that done?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe that was December 6.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall anything else that was said or done at this conversation when Mr. Thorne came over and talked to Marina through the interpreter and you were present?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there a formal contract executed between Marina and Mr. Thorne at some time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that was December 6 to your recollection.

Mr. MARTIN. Either the 5th or the 6th.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it with Mr. Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina present when you did?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did this discussion occur?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was at the Inn.

Mr. RANKIN. Your office?

Mr. MARTIN. No, in the coffee shoppe.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else was present.

Mr. MARTIN. No one.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you then go over the terms of the contract with him?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I left that up to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you then the manager of Marina's affairs?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, acting for Marina although I had no--I had no contract to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. You were still acting under this suggestion by Mr. Gopadze that some counsel be gotten for her?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And you did go over the terms of this contract at that time, did you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any suggestions for changes?

Mr. MARTIN. That we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or contributions.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on the draft of the contract for you to act as manager?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And when did that idea of your acting as manager come up?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was the same day that John Thorne came out to talk to Marina and to Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who brought it up?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest that you act as manager?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe I suggested it. We were discussing the need for a manager, and I don't know who brought it up as far as my being the one.

Mr. RANKIN. At that time was there any discussion about what compensation you would have?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were talking to Mr. Thorne in the coffee shoppe was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for acting as attorney?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What was said about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, just that it would be 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever discussed that before with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Senator, we welcome you.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Mr. DULLES. Would you proceed? Would you just resume for a moment where we are in the proceedings?

Mr. RANKIN. We are discussing the contract between Mr. Martin and Marina and also how Mr. Thorne became counsel under the contracts that were made.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. This 10-percent figure for John Thorne and the contract with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you know?

Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know. I think we had discussed it.

Mr. RANKIN. You had discussed it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as that is concerned.

Mr. RANKIN. But you think you had discussed it before the meeting at the coffee shoppe that you described?

Mr. MARTIN. Probably so.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you suggest the amount?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't recall whether you did or he did?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk that over with Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe Lee Gopadze.

Mr. RANKIN. Anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, there were several times we discussed it with Marina. One time Robert was there. He read the contracts. Let's see, he usually came in on Sunday so he read the contracts more at length.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert come in before or after your conversation in the coffee shoppe that you referred to?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe after.

Mr. RANKIN. After you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with Mr. Thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me, what contract are you talking about?

Mr. RANKIN. Thorne contract.

Were you referring to the Thorne contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What changes did you make at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. We deleted gifts, contributions. He used a standard contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and contributions, and we deleted those.

Mr. RANKIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 279 and ask you if that is a photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And it has stricken out the words that you have just described with regard to donations and gifts?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. It does give him an interest in collections, trust funds and bequests, according to the language of this Exhibit No. 279.

Do you know what was meant by that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the standard contract that this was drawn from.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever discuss this contract, Exhibit No. 279, with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, with Mr. Thorne and Robert Oswald present.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Between the 1st and the 6th of December 1963. I can't recall the dates.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember where you were when you had that discussion?

Mr. MARTIN. At the house, my home.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Marina about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall any conversation at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything said about the 10 percent at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she knew it was 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know she knew that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, we explained it to her.

Mr. RANKIN. Who explained it?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know whether I did or whether John Thorne did or Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she understand English enough to understand what you were talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. Because of her reaction to it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she react about the 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite reaction but I could tell she understood it.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you to think that she understood it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't know. I think it was explained to her as 10 cents of a dollar.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anything----

Mr. MARTIN. But she said she understood percents.

Mr. RANKIN. How did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. That way. "I understand percents" or something of that type.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion with Marina about the effect of this contract on donations and contributions from the public?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We said that that would not be included in that 10 percent.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to Marina about whether this was a good contract for her?

Mr. MARTIN. I probably did.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you said?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You have no recollection about that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Actually we left most of it up to Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. So whatever explanation was made to Marina was really made by Robert, is that right?

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.

Mr. LEECH. Mr. Martin's contract and Robert had a contract with her, too, and Mr. Thorne's contract were left with her. They were not signed that day.

Mr. RANKIN. You tell us what you know about that, Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Robert wanted to read over the contracts and think them over, and I believe he took copies of them. Now, I am not sure, I am not certain, about that.

Mr. RANKIN. When did Robert get involved here, of getting a share?

Mr. MARTIN. From the beginning.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you present when that matter came up?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That was Marina's request that he participate.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that request made?

Mr. MARTIN. Prior to the signing of the contracts, probably December 4--3d or 4th.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe John Thorne and Robert, Marina and myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. She wanted Robert to have some of the money.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Robert say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. As I recall he didn't say much of anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a good idea, a bad idea?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think he said, "Thank you," that is about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina say anything about how much she wanted Robert to get?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Ten percent.

Mr. RANKIN. She just said 10 percent, is that all?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina make any explanation of how she decided that Robert should get a share, too?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than she wanted to give Robert something.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

Mr. RANKIN. Surely.

Representative FORD. Was there any discussion at any time, Mr. Martin, as to whether Marguerite should have any benefits from it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Marina discuss with you at that time what Robert was to do for his 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for your share?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, to sell her story.

Mr. RANKIN. And what would Mr. Thorne do for his 10 percent?

Mr. MARTIN. Handle all the legal work involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear any discussion about what Robert was to do for his percentage?

Mr. MARTIN. We said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would take over the handling of Marina's affairs in case of my disability.

Mr. LEECH. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything more said than you have related about what Robert would do for his share?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I probably remarked to him that there would probably be plenty for him to do.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any dispute between any of you or with Marina at this time about the percentages?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing that I recall was the terms of the contract, of my contract.

Mr. RANKIN. Was something said about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Was 10 years.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. And Marina thought that was too long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said she thought 10 years was too long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she wanted a 1 year contract and I told her that actually 1 year, there is no telling how this story would develop or anything, and that 1 year might interfere with the sale of the story.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say to that?

Mr. MARTIN. That they agreed to it.

Mr. RANKIN. She agreed then to the 10 years?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was any interpreter present at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. So whatever Marina understood about was from her understanding of English and communication with you and Robert and Mr. Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, Lee Gopadze had discussed it prior to that.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in your presence?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He just discussed it, the general terms, I assume.

Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know.

Mr. MARTIN. Of course. I couldn't understand what he was saying. We left the contracts with her for several days.

Mr. RANKIN. But you don't know what was done with them?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Because you weren't present.

Do you know whether she understood English enough to read those contracts at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She couldn't have read the contracts at that time. But she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust Robert's judgment on it.

Mr. RANKIN. When did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. Just before--I guess the same day she signed it.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you to look at Exhibit No. 279 and tell us whether you recognize the signatures on that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose signatures are they?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and James H. Martin.

Mr. RANKIN. In the parts that are stricken out----

Mr. MARTIN. John M. Thorne.

Mr. RANKIN. On Exhibit No. 279 were those stricken out before the discussion of the contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that done when you were there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe the signing?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. They were not signed the date it says they were signed.

Mr. MARTIN. On the 5th.

Mr. LEECH. The date it says they were signed that is the date they were drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. The contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were drawn and Robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. I think he was there on a Sunday and he came back on a Tuesday, I am not sure about the days, and signed the contracts.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the signature of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us whether or not Exhibit No. 279 bears her signature?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it does.

Mr. RANKIN. It appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the acceptance at the bottom of Exhibit No. 279, do you know whose signature that is?

Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne's.

Mr. RANKIN. And you say that the exhibit was, the contract, Exhibit No. 279 was executed on the 6th rather than the 5th day of December.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I can't recall the dates on it.

Mr. LEECH. Excuse me for just a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LEECH. Counsel, for what it is worth, Robert's was executed at the same time as the other ones. I believe his is dated the 9th, isn't it? So it would have been the 9th or afterwards. They were all executed at the same time.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, do you know that?

Mr. MARTIN. I know they were all executed the same time.

Mr. RANKIN. Whether or not it was the 9th or the 6th you don't recall at this time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I am fairly certain it was not the 6th.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you certain what date it was?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What is your best recollection in that regard?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn that they were executed, and I believe the contracts were drawn, and the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that might have been December 5 that they were drawn then?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, that is already in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. It has already been admitted.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at 10:30. The members of the Commission would like to speak with you.

(Short recess.)

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will resume. Mr. Rankin, will you please continue with the examination?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Martin, I have been asking you about some of your contractual and financial arrangements with Marina Oswald and also Mr. Thorne's and Robert Oswald's. If you and your counsel won't object I would like to depart from that because I would like to have this information developed when some of the members of the Commission are here who might not be at other times during your examination.

Mr. MARTIN. One thing Mr. Leech brought to my attention was that he thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts were all drawn on the same date, December 5. They weren't drawn on the same date. I think it was the 5th, 6th and 7th, or the 5th, 6th, and 9th. Robert's was drawn on the 9th, mine was drawn the 6th, and Mr. Thorne's was drawn the 5th.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

I want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in the Houston Post, an article in the paper and the source was given as you and that is in regard to Mr. Nixon, Richard Nixon, former Vice President of the United States.

Did Marina ever say anything to you about Lee Oswald planning any violent action or assassination of Richard M. Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember the date. It was sometime in January, and she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one evening, and said that he had waited for Nixon to shoot him.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?

Mr. MARTIN. In Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. What time was it that he came home that night?

Mr. MARTIN. I didn't question her too much about the time. I assumed that it was after work.

Mr. RANKIN. At about what time of the day was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Five or six o'clock. She said they were living on Neely Street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. So the next morning he got up, Nixon had not come into town, so he said that he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got dressed with a suit, I believe she said, and she locked him in the bathroom and kept him there all day, they said.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I thought it was a little--I thought the story was a little far-fetched myself.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I said, "Don't go around telling people something like that."

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything about whether it was true or not?

Mr. MARTIN. She said it was true.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Was this brought up in connection with anything in particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out?

Mr. MARTIN. It just came out of the blue.

Mr. DULLES. There was no prior conversation that led up to this or any background to it?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall. It was just a statement that she made. I think she was talking about Oswald----

Representative FORD. Was she prone to come out with these kinds of comments or was this an unusual circumstance?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She at times referred to some particular incident in Russia or various things like that. And they would be completely unattached to anything that we had been talking about.

Mr. RANKIN. What more did you say to her about this incident when she brought it up?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, the only time I recall Nixon being in Dallas was in November. Now, she was not living with Oswald in November, and----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to her?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I just let the thing go.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I thought about it, because I know the only bathroom doors I have seen lock from the inside and they swing in.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the bathroom?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said he didn't do anything. When she let him out that night, and I suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he wasn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was anybody else present at the time of this statement by her to you?

Mr. MARTIN. My wife.

Representative FORD. Did your wife make any inquiry?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We thought it was some kind of a story.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean you thought it was an untrue story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and why, I don't know. It didn't sound logical.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there other conversations with Marina that you had where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue?

Mr. MARTIN. She would relate stories about Russia that I would listen to but they didn't sound right.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, they mostly dealt with boy friends.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say in that regard?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, usually a non-Russian, someone from Rumania or Germany or from some other country.

Mr. RANKIN. What did she say?

Mr. LEECH. Is this going to be made public?

Mr. RANKIN. This might be, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, I don't know about specific incidents. She would remark about she knew--I am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, she left Leningrad and went to Minsk because of an association with a married man there.

Representative FORD. In Leningrad?

Mr. MARTIN. It was either she left Leningrad to go to Minsk or vice versa.

Representative FORD. But she left one or the other to go to the other because of an association with a married man?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was the association, in Leningrad or in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the city that she left.

Mr. RANKIN. She was getting away from that association, was she?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. By going to the other city?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any other conversation when she told you something that you don't believe?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, she remarked about people that she knew in Russia that had, we will say, lovers----

Mr. DULLES. Did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a boy friend in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. After she was here in New Orleans?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What did she say about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and I believe what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back to Russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, I believe, for lack of postage, and Oswald got hold of the letter, and he asked her about it, and I think he asked her either to read it or he would read it. I believe she read it to him. This caused quite a bit of difficulty. Now, that is when she was in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. When she was telling you about these people that had lovers in Russia, you didn't believe these stories? Is that what you are saying?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, I know nothing about Russian life.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. So I more or less took it with a grain of salt. I didn't put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. It was just something that was said and I didn't either accept it or reject it.

Mr. RANKIN. How did she happen to tell you about going to Minsk to get away from a married man in Leningrad?

Tell us how that came up.

Mr. MARTIN. I think she was just talking about boy friends, I guess.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in Russia that she had the boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. How many did she tell you about?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy. Well, she didn't mention any names as such, and I don't know whether different stories got confused to being two different people or--I would say 10 or 12.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she include Lee Oswald among those?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, you mean as a boy friend?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you anything about her relations with these boy friends?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. You say you didn't believe these stories?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe them. They were just conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, on the Nixon matter, when that came to your attention, did you tell anyone else about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I discussed it with my wife, and with John Thorne.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me just a moment.

Mr. Martin, this is Congressman Boggs, a member of the Commission, and this is Mr. Leech, counsel for Mr. Martin.

Mr. LEECH. I know Mr. Boggs, I met him in New Orleans years ago.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us about the conversation when you related this to someone else?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the telephone, and I was quite shocked at first about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical.

Mr. RANKIN. You believed it at first?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I guess I didn't see any reason for it not to be true. But then I didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and I supposed it was possible.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you tell Mr. Thorne about it with reference to when Marina told you?

Mr. MARTIN. The same day. I don't recall the date at all.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to Mr. Thorne about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I just related the incident, what she had told me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about telling the Commission about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else said in this telephone conversation with Mr. Thorne except relating what Marina had said?

Mr. MARTIN. I remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something like that.

Mr. RANKIN. That it would be helpful in regard to Marina's story, did you say that?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I did think it would be harmful.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say that to him?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe so.

Mr. DULLES. Why would it be harmful?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this purportedly took place after the Walker incident, and she had made a statement that if Oswald repeated anything of a similar nature as the Walker incident she would turn him over to the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

The Walker incident took place on April 10, 1963, according to our records.

Senator COOPER. I would like you if you can to repeat everything that Mrs. Oswald told you about the Nixon incident. What did Lee say to her?

Mr. MARTIN. This has been a very confusing 2 months----

Senator COOPER. I know that.

Mr. MARTIN. To me.

Senator COOPER. Do the best you can. Take your time and tell us about it.

Mr. MARTIN. I couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot Nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he would take care of it then.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator COOPER. I think you said that she did at least partly identify the time by saying at the time they were living on Neely Street.

Mr. MARTIN. Neely Street.

Mr. DULLES. May I just add there our records indicate they were living on Neely Street on March 2, between March 2, 1963, and April 24, 1963.

Senator COOPER. Did Mrs. Oswald tell you anything that he said about the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I recall that she said shoot him or kill him.

Representative FORD. Could she speak English well enough to differentiate between shoot and kill?

Mr. MARTIN. At the time?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. She could distinguish English that well?

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention a pistol or rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention whether he was employed at the time or unemployed at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in a bathroom for one whole day?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ask her why Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to kill Nixon, any motive?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked, "Well, why would he want to do that?" And she shrugged her shoulders.

Senator COOPER. I would like to follow up on that. In this conversation with her, did he give any reason to Marina Oswald why he wanted to kill Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. Evidently not. She didn't answer. She didn't answer me when I asked.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have said in your opinion the Nixon incident was after the Walker incident.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, that is what she said.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate it to the General Walker incident in any way when she discussed the Nixon incident with you?

Mr. MARTIN. She just said it was after General Walker.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she relate to you any conversation that she may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald relating the Nixon incident to the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the time of the Walker incident that may have related to the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I remember her saying after the Walker incident she told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she would report him to the police.

Mr. DULLES. How did you know the Nixon incident was after or supposed to be after the Walker incident? Did she say that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said it was.

Mr. DULLES. She said that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; I asked when it happened and she said after Walker.

Mr. REDLICH. When she told you that she had threatened Lee Oswald with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever ask her why she had not done so in light of the Nixon incident which subsequently followed?

Mr. MARTIN. I must not have because I think I would have remembered it if I had.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever consider reporting the Nixon incident to any Federal authorities?

Mr. MARTIN. If it didn't come out in the hearing, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald was preparing to come to Washington with you for the hearings before this Commission, did you discuss the Nixon incident with her?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I know I told her to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission. She had mentioned that she had lied to the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. With regard to what?

Mr. MARTIN. On a Mexico trip. She told the FBI she didn't know he had gone there or that he was going.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge had she ever related the Nixon incident to the FBI or Secret Service prior to her trip to Washington?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I was never in on any of the questions.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her any advice in connection with any of those interviews?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I told her if she got tired to tell them so that they could come back the next day.

Mr. REDLICH. You say when she was planning to come here you advised her to tell the truth?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you give her similar advice in connection with the FBI and Secret Service interviews?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think the situation ever arose. She asked specifically about the Mexico incident.

Mr. REDLICH. Throughout the many interviews with the FBI and Secret Service you never asked her, I take it, whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I may have asked her when she told me, if she had told the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?

Mr. MARTIN. She said no.

Mr. REDLICH. What did you say?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall if I said anything.

Representative FORD. Mr. Redlich. I wonder if we couldn't have Mr. Martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this conversation with Marina in the presence of your wife arose, not necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall----

Mr. MARTIN. It was in the evening.

Representative FORD. You were sitting around the room?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in the den.

Representative FORD. Just the three of you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did she just start talking or did you prompt her or just how did the situation arise?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't recall. I think maybe--I think it just came into conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general.

Mr. DULLES. Were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any writings she might----

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. --she might produce would include?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. What was your wife's reaction to this story?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she couldn't believe it either.

Representative FORD. Did she ask any questions about it such as the ones you have indicated?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than the ones I asked.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us with whom you have discussed the Nixon incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, I believe thus far you have said Mrs. Martin and Mr. Thorne.

Is there anyone else you have told this to?

Mr. MARTIN. Don Levine.

Mr. REDLICH. Who?

Mr. MARTIN. Levine.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is he?

Mr. MARTIN. A writer.

Mr. REDLICH. For what publication.

Mr. MARTIN. He is an author.

Mr. DULLES. Freelance writer and author, Isaac Don Levine for the record.

Mr. REDLICH. When did you relate this incident to him?

Mr. MARTIN. Back in January.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us why you told him?

Mr. MARTIN. He is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets the eye, so to speak. He is----

Mr. DULLES. More to what?

Mr. MARTIN. More to the assassination.

Mr. DULLES. The Nixon story?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. The whole assassination, Kennedy assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. And he--of course, he is quite familiar with Russian affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying to tie in Oswald, I guess, with the Communist Party or some attachment there some place, and I mentioned that I thought he was just a nut.

Mr. REDLICH. That who was.

Mr. MARTIN. Oswald. And I said, I told him I didn't know how true it was but then I related the story, and he--I cautioned him not to pass it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you or Marina Oswald compensated in any way for the release of this information to Mr. Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Was Mr. Levine at this time trying to get the rights to the story or the right to write the story?

Mr. MARTIN. He wants to write the story, and through Meredith Press.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you negotiating with Mr. Levine at the time concerning the rights to Marina Oswald's story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And it was during the course of these negotiations that you revealed to him the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this, you say, was sometime in January?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell anyone else other than Mr. Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall unless it was Robert Oswald.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to Robert?

Mr. MARTIN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you had a conversation in mid-January with Robert Oswald concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I was trying to remember that the other day to find out if I had mentioned it to him. And----

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall when Robert Oswald would come to visit your house?

Mr. MARTIN. On Sundays.

Mr. REDLICH. And what would he do on these Sundays?

Mr. MARTIN. Usually take Marina and the baby to the cemetery.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether on one of those Sundays you had a conversation with him concerning the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember. I am not sure whether I did tell him or not. It seems to me that I did, but I can't recall the incident at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, ever indicate to you that she had discussed the Nixon incident with anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. To be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether she had discussed the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. With Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. With any Federal authority?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you state again what your advice to her was with regard to the revealing of this incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I told her it would be advisable just not to say anything about it.

Mr. REDLICH. To anyone?

Mr. MARTIN. That is right.

Mr. REDLICH. But you related the incident to Mr. Levine.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When you accompanied Mrs. Oswald to Washington for the hearings before this Commission, did the Nixon incident come up at all during your conversations?

Mr. MARTIN. Not that I recall.

Mr. REDLICH. This incident which you regarded of such importance at the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was appearing before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember mentioning it to her.

Mr. REDLICH. You didn't ask her whether she had told the Commissioners?

Mr. MARTIN. I think I asked John Thorne if she had mentioned it.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. He said no, not yet. And I dropped it at that.

Mr. REDLICH. You and Mr. Thorne didn't have any conversations concerning whether she should mention it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of the testimony did you ask Mrs. Oswald whether she had mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Mr. Thorne the question of whether she had mentioned the Nixon incident before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I think so.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. He said no.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Mr. Thorne discuss whether she should have mentioned that incident before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you think it was an important incident, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound logical. It didn't seem to me that it actually happened.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you speak to any representative of the Houston Post or the Associated Press with regard to this incident in the last several days?

Mr. MARTIN. Yesterday morning.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of that conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. He came out and asked me.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "he"?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, his name is Creighton, I believe or the last name began with a "C", he is with the Houston Post, reporter. He came out and asked me what I knew about the Nixon incident and I said I know nothing about it. He said well he had it on good authority that there was a diary that Lee Harvey Oswald had written and it was mentioned in the diary.

Now, I have never heard of a diary involved. There are some 60 pages of manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but I have never heard of a diary.

Then--which I told him.

He asked me if I knew of anyone that he could contact to find more about it. And I said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the Commission, and I told him that I had just heard about it the day before, and he asked if Marina knew anything about it, and I said I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. You didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed the incident to be true?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time you first learned about the incident you thought it was of sufficient importance that you called Mr. Thorne the same day, isn't that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. We discussed it back and forth and I don't--we couldn't think of how it could happen.

Mr. LEECH. Could we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Read this brief report into the record.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to read into the record a story which appears in the Washington Post February 22, 1964--27, 1964, dated Houston, Texas, February 26, Associated Press:

"The Houston Post quoted an associate of Lee Harvey Oswald's widow tonight as saying Oswald planned to kill former Vice President Richard M. Nixon. The Post quoted James Martin, until a few days ago Marina Oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this effect had been presented to the Warren Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Martin is scheduled to testify before the Commissioners Thursday. Nixon was in Dallas the day before President Kennedy was killed. Oswald was charged with the slaying."

Mr. MARTIN. Now. I did not tell him--I told him exactly what I told you, that I had no knowledge of it. I had secondhand knowledge only of it. I said if anyone knew about it the Commission would know it.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell him that this evidence had been presented before the Warren Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I told him if anybody knew about it, you would know about it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a minute ago that you only learned about it the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. That is what I told the newspaper reporter.

Senator COOPER. What is the significance of that? Did you talk to somebody the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was just a method of brushing him off.

Senator COOPER. Had you talked to Robert Oswald the day before?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. May I ask this: Now, Mrs. Marina Oswald told you about the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Had she previously told you about the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. General Walker?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, after it came out in the newspapers. The first I heard about it was when I read in the newspapers.

Senator COOPER. Then she talked to you about it?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her about it.

Senator COOPER. You have read somewhere, have you, that Mrs. Marina Oswald said that Lee Oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at General Walker?

Mr. MARTIN. The reason she gave me was that Lee Harvey Oswald thought that General Walker was a Fascist.

Senator COOPER. Right.

Mr. MARTIN. And needed to be killed.

Senator COOPER. Did she tell you any statement that Lee Oswald made giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot Richard Nixon?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. Didn't talk about that at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you of any other statements that Lee Oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any intentions that he had to kill any other person?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Senator COOPER. You are sure of that?

Mr. MARTIN. Positive.

Senator COOPER. Did she tell you about any statements that Lee Oswald might have made about President Kennedy?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Anything that----

Senator COOPER. You must have talked to her a great deal about this assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. MARTIN. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether they were or not.

Senator COOPER. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything----

Mr. MARTIN. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely tell you. I cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the President.

Mr. DULLES. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?

Mr. MARTIN. About 2-1/2 months.

Representative BOGGS. You had many conversations with her in that period of time.

Mr. MARTIN. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.

Representative BOGGS. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom she married?

Mr. MARTIN. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. I mean she doesn't fit.

Representative BOGGS. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MARTIN. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.

Representative BOGGS. Cold in what way?

Mr. MARTIN. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an American woman, and she was not very upset at all.

Representative FORD. Not upset about the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. About her husband.

Representative FORD. About her husband's subsequent death?

Representative BOGGS. Well now----

Mr. MARTIN. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.

Representative BOGGS. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?

Mr. MARTIN. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you spell that out in more detail?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.

Representative BOGGS. This may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at all.

Representative FORD. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture--a picture of Jackie Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.

Representative BOGGS. Did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Although I have wondered about it since.

Mr. REDLICH. Since when, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen.

The Fords also expressed the same opinion.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by the same opinion?

Mr. MARTIN. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think.

We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at all.

But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside down.

But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there--she came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us.

Mr. DULLES. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the Fords or how long after she moved?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and----

Mr. REDLICH. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her appearance before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. Right.

Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in.

Representative FORD. Who drove her, how did she get there?

Mr. MARTIN. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you finished with what you were about to say?

Mr. MARTIN. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me.

Representative BOGGS. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing.

This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?

Mr. MARTIN. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you spell that out in more detail because when Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy.

Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?

Mr. MARTIN. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina given you a reason for that?

Mr. MARTIN. She said she doesn't like her.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did?

Mr. MARTIN. I knew that he did.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know the reason for that?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He said he just didn't like her.

Mr. DULLES. He gave no reasons?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as to why she didn't like the Paines?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I think it is because Robert didn't. That is a thought.

Mr. REDLICH. You said that----

Mr. MARTIN. She has expressed that.

Mr. REDLICH. You said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is a preplanned affair. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but I think probably sometime in December from then on it might have been planned.

We have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story rights.

Representative BOGGS. How much?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end result, but just on advances, it is $132,000.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you are reading from a document. Is that something----

Mr. MARTIN. This I brought for you. We don't have the money. But these are the contracts that have been negotiated.

Mr. REDLICH. Is this something you are turning over to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is for your information.

Mr. DULLES. What is the nature of this document?

Mr. MARTIN. It is a handwritten----

Mr. DULLES. By whom?

Mr. MARTIN. By me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news media that I have contacted in Marina's behalf to sell her movie rights, the TV right, book rights and so forth.

Mr. DULLES. And the amount they have proposed to pay for them?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, these are just the advances.

Now, in the case of Texitalia Films, for instance----

Mr. REDLICH. Could I interrupt and get this identified?

Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.

Mr. REDLICH. With your permission, we would like to introduce this into evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original.

Mr. MARTIN. Certainly.

Mr. DULLES. Would you describe this?

Mr. REDLICH. This document lists various publications, media of communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with these various media of publication concerning Marina Oswald's story.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Martin has said this is written in his own hand, is that correct, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office momentarily, I would just like to ask one further question of this witness.

Now, I understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, but I want you to be specific--anything that comes to your mind as to whether or not this woman, anything more than what I asked you about.

Mr. LEECH. Can you give us about two minutes in that room?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. REDLICH. Back on the record.

Mr. DULLES. Just one minute. This should go in the record.

Representative BOGGS. Who is this individual?

Mr. MARTIN. I have been trying to remember his name. I can find out his name. It began with an "H".

Mr. DULLES. Would you repeat the story, please, and then we will continue with the examination.

Mr. MARTIN. I met a gentleman who is an executive with the Dinkler Hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the Atlanta, in their Atlanta hotel. The maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there was an individual that called, well, the way I heard the story, that she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in history. He made a credit card call to Lee Harvey Oswald, and simply said, "Proceed as planned."

Then he made another telephone call to Jack Ruby and told him that if anything went wrong he knew what to do.

Now, I questioned this, I guess there are numerous rumors of this type or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a violation of Federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, and that they finally did report it to the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. The person you were speaking to, as I understand this story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was the telephone operator who overheard the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative BOGGS. Was this a telephone operator in a Dinkler hotel?

Mr. MARTIN. I didn't get that whether it was in a Dinkler hotel or whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in Atlanta.

Representative BOGGS. Did this person have the credit card number and so forth?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The person that I was talking to?

Representative BOGGS. Did the telephone operator have it?

Mr. MARTIN. The telephone operator did, or the telephone company has the records.

Representative BOGGS. Do you have any other information that would indicate that----

Mr. MARTIN. No, I know this doesn't indicate anything about Marina as far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as Marina is concerned. She is too cold.

Mr. REDLICH. When did you hear about this story, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. About a week ago.

Mr. REDLICH. You haven't discussed it at all with Marina in that week?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to question you again on Congressman Boggs point. You have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that all this was preplanned. Is there anything specific in anything that she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe that she has withheld certain information from you, or this Commission, concerning her knowledge about the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. No, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't volunteer anything. She only answered questions.

Representative FORD. This was after the return from the Commission hearing?

Mr. MARTIN. No, this was sometime ago. That was before----

Representative FORD. Before the Commission hearing where she appeared?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And it was----

Mr. DULLES. Is that all you had on this particular point?

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. I don't remember what brought it up even. She didn't like the FBI. She said that. And she didn't like to answer questions.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She just didn't like them. Boguslav in particular.

Mr. DULLES. But her remark was made before her hearing before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And did not relate then to that hearing.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that there was to reveal before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. There again I didn't question her about anything that she said in the Commission. I didn't feel it was any of my business for one thing, and all I asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, and that would be the end of it. That is the limit of my questioning her as far as testimony within the Commission was concerned.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell us how you found out about the General Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Read it from the newspapers.

Mr. REDLICH. When you read about it did you talk to Mrs. Oswald about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us the nature of the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and I also asked her who was with Oswald, and she said no one. He did things alone. And, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had written. He had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case he was gone.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina tell you all about this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. In English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to be able to relate this type of story?

Mr. MARTIN. She learned very rapidly.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall approximately when that was?

Mr. MARTIN. No. It was the same day it came out in the paper.

Representative FORD. Did she know of her own knowledge about General Walker? Did she indicate any background information about General Walker?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. She only told what Lee told her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Lee told her he was a Fascist.

Mr. DULLES. Did she recount to you, that is, did Marina account to you, what she said to Lee Harvey after this incident, after the Walker incident, after he told her about the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police also.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, were you aware that Marina Oswald had given this information voluntarily to the Secret Service or the FBI concerning the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was in the newspapers so I assumed they knew about it.

Mr. REDLICH. And you assumed she had volunteered this information?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course now, I was a little concerned to begin with as to how it got out.

Mr. REDLICH. Why were you concerned?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, if she had told it to the FRI and the FBI only then how did it get in the newspapers?

Mr. REDLICH. What was the--you say you were concerned that certain aspects of her story were being released. What was the nature of your concern?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I was just wondering how that information got to the newspapers?

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper reporters at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask any of the agents of the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Mr. Heitman.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mr. Heitman tell you?

Mr. MARTIN. He said it didn't come from the Dallas office. He said it must have come from Washington. The Houston Chronicle brought it out.

Mr. REDLICH. By Washington he meant the Washington office?

Mr. MARTIN. Of the FBI, the Justice Department.

Mr. REDLICH. FBI. That was his opinion as to where this information could come from?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Mrs. Oswald why she had not revealed this information prior to that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I tried to stay as far away from this investigation as possible, because I didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank about it. I figured there are people better equipped than I to ferret out information and they have methods of doing it that I have no idea about.

Mr. REDLICH. At that time, however, you were acting as her business representative.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I had to refute something in the paper.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She has never written anything other than the manuscript that she wrote for the Commission. And we have never pre-prepared anything.

Mr. DULLES. Has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, who have been writing material, Isaac Don Levine, for example?

Mr. MARTIN. The only one would be Levine.

Mr. DULLES. The only one would be Isaac Don Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. Levine told me she told him that her husband was a Trotskyite. Now what that means, I don't know but he seemed to think quite a bit.

Mr. DULLES. Marina told Isaac Don Levine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That Marina's husband?

Mr. MARTIN. Lee Oswald was a Trotskyite.

Mr. DULLES. He was a Trotskyite.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, because this, for instance----

Mr. REDLICH. May we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are talking about?

Mr. Chairman, I offer----

Mr. DULLES. Identify it.

Mr. REDLICH. In the course of the witness' explanation of his business representation of Mrs. Oswald the witness has presented before this Commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of Mrs. Oswald's story. This document is, we are told, written in Mr. Martin's handwriting. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 325 and ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the Commission and whether its contents are as I have described them.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Commission Exhibit No. 325 be admitted.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 325 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. It is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will be made part of the permanent record of the Commission, and that the original will be returned to the witness.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case because this was prepared for the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. You can have the original.

Mr. DULLES. We will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a photostat for your records.

Mr. MARTIN. I have it right up here.

Mr. DULLES. Do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short and it might make the record more intelligible.

Mr. REDLICH. Since this is in the handwriting of the witness may I suggest that the witness read it?

Mr. DULLES. Right.

Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films, $75,000 movie and the TV rights, World Wide plus $7,500 plus expenses per film appearance, plus $1,500 per--plus expenses for personal appearance. Contract was signed February 11.

Life Magazine was $5,000, North American rights for Lee had photo with rifle and pistol.

Stern Magazine, $12,500, story serial rights for Germany and Italy only, with a 70-30 percent reciprocal for serial rights in Europe, 70 percent to Marina.

Stern Magazine, $2,650 picture rights on the seven photos with same arrangements as above.

Mr. REDLICH. Finish the documents.

Mr. MARTIN. Meredith Press, $25,000 advance on world book rights.

London Daily Mirror $2,200 guarantee on 50-50 reciprocal for British Commonwealth rights on rifle photo.

Detroit Free Press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media thereby leaving themselves liable.

This Week Magazine, $1,500 for 500-word article.

Total is $132,350.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, it is in connection with this document that you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one moment before that, how much has been received and how much is----

Mr. MARTIN. $50,000 of it. The rest is being held, $75,000 in Texitalia Films they have the money.

Mr. DULLES. Who is they?

Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films. But they don't want to part with it until this is settled.

Mr. REDLICH. Until what is settled?

Mr. MARTIN. Until there is an amicable settlement between Marina Oswald and myself.

Mr. REDLICH. Concerning your representation of her?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. You mean they are holding their own money and not paying it at the present time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. It hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We have received $5,000 from Life Magazine. That is in an escrow account. I have a check for $2,400 from Stern Magazine, which is uncashed because the attorney McKenzie who has been hired by Robert wrote a letter to Stern Magazine saying that I had no authority to make any deals for Marina. So they stopped payment on the check. Of course, I haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting.

Mr. REDLICH. At this time, rather than go into the details of these business arrangements, I would like to revert to the question posed earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a patsy.

Would you care to explain that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have put in approximately 2-1/2 months of good, hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story.

Mr. REDLICH. Don't assume we know anything, tell us everything.

Mr. MARTIN. I had to leave my job at the Inn of the Six Flags to properly handle this which was the first of the year. I could not keep going on both jobs. These contracts were negotiated on the basis of my contract with her, which states that I have full power to sign any contracts for her in these fields.

William McKenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by Robert Oswald, and is acting in his behalf, I guess, although he is using Marina Oswald's name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words, just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly for it not to have been planned.

Mr. REDLICH. What would have been planned? What is the plan that you suspect?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have been the buffers for the 2-1/2 months prior to that.

The Secret Service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. So they feel perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing all the work that we had put into it.

This was not a decision that was made in two days.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get you off this job?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I have letters from--one from Marina and one from McKenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement.

Now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. I have performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of course, those are just advance payments of $132,000. There would be more on royalties after that.

Mr. DULLES. Did you sign these agreements or Mr. Thorne or did Marina sign them?

Mr. MARTIN. I did.

Mr. DULLES. These agreements with the news media?

Mr. MARTIN. I did.

Mr. DULLES. You signed them?

Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract that I have with Marina, "You will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance by me of any appearance or service. You are authorized, empowered and directed by me."

Mr. DULLES. I think we have a copy of this, do we not?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes. You are reading from----

Mr. MARTIN. My contract.

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between James Martin and Marina Oswald is Commission Exhibit 276 which was introduced in connection with Robert Oswald's testimony. Mr. Martin, there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now Commission Exhibits Nos. 274 and 275, a letter from William McKenzie to you and a letter from William McKenzie to Mr. Thorne concerning the discharging of your services.

Do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because I would like to ask you questions concerning that?

Mr. LEECH. May I ask the date of the letter please, sir? Give me the date. I think we have the originals, sir.

Mr. REDLICH. There is one dated February 18, two of them dated February 18.

Mr. LEECH. Yes, one to Jim Martin and one to Mr. John Thorne.

Mr. REDLICH. One is addressed to Mr. James Martin and the other to Mr. John Thorne.

Mr. LEECH. Yes, sir; we have the originals.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have with you any other letters in connection with the termination of Mr. Martin's services?

Mr. MARTIN. One from Marina Oswald.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you were building a public image of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell the Commission what you mean by that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, in this type of thing----

Mr. REDLICH. May I interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through----

Mr. MARTIN. Excuse me. We were trying to create in the public mind an image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. And I think we did actually. This was for her, as I say, for her benefit. She has received some $68,000 in contributions, and the image is not all true.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the image is not true?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, as I mentioned before about the bible, this is a very small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in Russian.

This is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a religious person.

She wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't conform to that image.

Mr. REDLICH. In what way, how?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she is lazy, for one thing.

Mr. REDLICH. Lazy in what respect?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, as far as even taking care of the children. The children bother her. I mean to her they are a constant upset. When she left our home to go up to Denton, my wife offered to keep the baby there at the house if she liked, and Marina took her up on it and then Robert told her she had better take the baby with her. She hadn't seen the baby for over a week. And the first day she was back she was willing to leave the baby again.

Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything else?

Mr. MARTIN. Her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these contributions are concerned. She takes it as a matter of--she takes it for granted. She is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off.

Mr. REDLICH. Has she discussed the amount of contributions with you?

Mr. MARTIN. I have kept her informed all along on it.

Mr. REDLICH. Has she indicated that there is some relationship between the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which she will receive?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you be more specific about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that I haven't written but I have directed.

Mr. REDLICH. Directed?

Mr. MARTIN. By giving them information.

Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature----

Mr. MARTIN. To build it up.

Mr. REDLICH. What is the nature of these articles?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I recall one, I wonder if I have it, I guess I don't have it, that was written by Bill Burrus of the Times Herald in Dallas. It was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. It is shaded in truth.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have the article with you?

Mr. MARTIN. Here is one Bill Burrus did that is when she went to midnight mass.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin has submitted to the Commission an article which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it appears, but is headed "Marina Oswald attended mass, had quiet Yule", by Bill Burrus.

Mr. MARTIN. That was the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. REDLICH. Since we would like to question the witness about this, I would like to label it Commission Exhibit No. 326 and ask it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted with no objection.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 326 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. I hand you Commission Exhibit 326, Mr. Martin. Will you tell us in what respects this article is not true?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wouldn't say it is strictly not true. But it embellishes the truth.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you be specific in terms of references to the particular article?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to church?

Mr. DULLES. Did she go to church?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. It is my partner's church.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to Christmas carols over radio or television", which I believe is not true. I don't believe I told that; that was just added in there.

"Marina continued her studies of the English language and watched television, including her favorite Steve Allen show". She doesn't even like Steve Allen. And, of course, she is never studying English.

Mr. DULLES. Was this information that you gave to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That is the trouble with newspapers. I have told Bill Burrus that she watches Steve Allen. She does but just for lack of anything else to do.

Now I didn't say anything about the Christmas carols nor about studying the English language.

Mr. DULLES. You say she has not been studying the English language?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in her own defense in order to converse with people. When she was living with us, there was no one there that spoke Russian so she had to learn English in order to converse.

Mr. DULLES. Is there anything else in this particular article that you would either regard as unslanted or untrue?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Could you give us other examples where----

Mr. MARTIN. There is the first one.

Mr. DULLES. If you are planning to comment on that I would like to introduce it in evidence.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. This will go with it.

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has submitted to the Commission an article appearing in the Dallas Times Herald on Sunday, December 15, 1963, the headline reading, "Marina Oswald, all the pity in the world won't help", written by Bill Burrus. This has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 327, and I ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. This will be admitted, if there is no objection.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 327 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 327 and ask you to tell the Commission in what respects if any there is material in this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted?

Mr. MARTIN. Here is a sentence in here, "She pores over the letters reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. The only letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. What was her reaction to those letters?

Mr. MARTIN. Acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. The further it went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether----

Mr. DULLES. Did Burrus get this slanted material from you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she specifically said in response to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have reached?

Mr. MARTIN. That she specifically said?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there was a dollar in it and she said, "Oh, a dollar", and threw it on the table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all these people are doing for her or trying to do for her.

Mr. REDLICH. But you can't recall anything specific that she said which would indicate this lack of compassion?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than "the American people are crazy for sending me that money".

Mr. REDLICH. Is that a quotation from Mrs. Oswald? She said the American people are crazy for sending this money?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she elaborate on it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you reply to that?

Mr. MARTIN. I told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say anything.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she make any other comments of that nature?

Mr. MARTIN. Other than that dollar bill. Those are the only ones I can remember specifically.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you continue your examination of Commission Exhibit No. 327?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, "unlike her husband, Marina is devout. She is a member of the Greek Orthodox Church", that is not true. She was not a devout Greek orthodox. She was not devout anything so far as religion is concerned.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in that church to you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten June baptized without her husband's knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. You say she was supposed to have, where did you get that information?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I read it somewhere prior to this article. This article has it in there. I didn't give him this information. He got it from some other article, and I recall reading it. And when she read this, she commented on it. She said he did know that June was being baptized.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she read that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. In English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. She knew English well enough to read this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. It took her a while to read it.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention----

Mr. MARTIN. This is December 15.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to call the attention of the Commission to the date which is Sunday, December 15. You say as of Sunday, December 15, which is a little over 3 weeks after she came to live with you, Mrs. Oswald knew English well enough to be able to read this and understand it?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to read it legibly, I mean not to understand every word of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. I was quite amazed at how much she could read. She can't read writing or says she can't, but she can read printing or typing.

Here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers and studying the Russian-English dictionary attempting to understand all the words and talk about her."

She had one child's book that one of the Secret Service men brought her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that.

Mr. REDLICH. Where did this information appearing in this story come from? Did you tell that to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Oswald read this story and saw things that were not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you?

Mr. MARTIN. On one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been in this article. Oh, yes, about the baptism. She said that Lee did know about the baptism. This was gleaned from some place else.

Mr. DULLES. Before or afterward?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said before. Before the baptism.

"She washes clothes for herself and June Lee, she cooks her own meals favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." She did not cook her own meals. She cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half months.

Mr. REDLICH. Is this fact one which you related to Mr. Burrus, the fact she cooked her own meals?

Mr. MARTIN. I didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall what reaction if any Mrs. Oswald had in reading this comment?

Mr. MARTIN. The only one she commented on was she doesn't like macaroni, it is noodles.

Mr. REDLICH. But Mrs. Oswald voiced no objection to your giving this information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not quite true?

Mr. MARTIN. No. "Marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used and she thinks it is wonderful". Actually, she didn't like it but now in most of this stuff Bill Burrus would ask me a question like, "Does she have a dish washer", and I would say "yes", and he would elaborate on it.

This is quite a sympathetic article. "Marina gets up at about 9 a.m. every day." She always got up between 10 and 11. "She asked Secret Service men to read some of the letters to her". I don't recall any incident where she did.

Mr. REDLICH. Was that also a fact which you gave to Mr. Burrus?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

"As the hours and days tick by Marina watches television and struggles with newspapers. These things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of President Kennedy, Jackie, Lee Oswald, Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the slain police officer. Sometimes she turns off the set." That is not true.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you be a little bit more specific about that? Were there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was her reaction?

Mr. MARTIN. No real reaction at all. Just there on television.

Mr. DULLES. You started to describe earlier I think when she saw a picture of Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and she made certain remarks. I don't know that we finished that.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, yes; she did. She remarked, "Oh, Jackie, Jackie", and that was it. There wasn't--kind of shook her head. That is in this article, too, and that is true.

Of course, this last paragraph, "The agents speak through curtains and she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". I don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. She has expressed that opinion. She didn't feel that anyone was--anyone intended to harm her.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ever express any ideas about going back to the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. She said it once and I questioned her about it. She said she was just--what was it--just joking. She used a funny sounding word for joking. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any further comments with regard to this particular exhibit?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I suggest this would be a good time for recess, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. All right. The Commission will be adjourned until 3 p.m., this afternoon.

Would you report with your counsel at that time?

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Pages ix-xi: A three-page list of Exhibit numbers has been omitted from this eBook.

Page 20: "Mrs. Oswald. No, I don't remember that Lee had just" probably should have a period after "that".

Page 20: "Mr. Rankin. Did our husband" probably should be "your".

Page 139: "No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" probably should end with a period instead of a question mark.

Page 176: Spurious quotation mark removed before "The money that came into my home that"

Page 245: Missing closing quotation mark for: 'I said "No, Reverend Saunders,'

Page 297: "And you worked at the A. & P. during this period?" changed to "A&P" for consistency with other occurrences of that abbreviation.

Page 344: "copy for the original. I will undertake" The period probably should be a comma.

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