Warren Commission (01 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (01 of 26): Hearings Vol. I (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Then Marina was not home. I could not understand where so fast that they could have so many friends, that this Russian girl didn't speak English and know her way about, could be gone all day long. That worried me.

So I sat in the car on Montgomery Ward's parking lot, where I could see the house, because I wanted to see who Marina was going to come home with.

The door was open. I went in the house and no one was there.

By this time, I was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being a stranger in town.

I sat in the car all day long. She didn't show up.

Finally, I went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way going back to the house Lee was leaving Montgomery Ward.

Now, they did not have a phone. I am just assuming--this is not a fact--that Lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because I was coming from Montgomery Ward. He got in the car with me, and we had about a block to go. I entered the home with Lee, and I said, "Lee where is Marina?" Of course, I knew that she wasn't home, because I had stayed in the car all day.

He said, "Oh, I guess she is out with some friends."

"Would you like me to fix your supper?"

"No, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?"

So I left. I am not going to interfere in their married life. But I did offer to fix him supper. And I went back to make sure Marina still wasn't home.

I walked in the home with my son.

So approximately 2 days later--not approximately, but 2 days later I went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the living room, and Marina was in the bedroom, I could not see Marina. And I said to Lee, "Tell Marina, I am here."

Marina made no appearance.

So I went into the bedroom, and she was nursing June with her head down. And I started to talk. And she still had her head down. And I came around to the front and I saw Marina with a black eye.

Now, gentlemen, I don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated in the paper, or beat his wife. But I will say this. There may be times that a woman needs to have a black eye. I am not condoning the act. But I strongly am saying that this girl was not home. And this man was working. And I saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any food. This couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working man food. And I think it was her duty to be home and have his supper ready.

That is a little thing, maybe. But to me it shows the character of what I am trying to bring out.

And so there may have been reasons that the children fought. And I also know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because I made it clear before that I have worked in these very fine homes, and have seen very fine people fight. I have seen a gentleman strike his wife in front of me. We know this happens. It is not a nice thing to do. But it happens in our finest homes. I am not condoning the act. But I am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. The woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye, but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. We always must consider the second aspect of the case.

Mr. RANKIN. Did she take the baby with her when you looked----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask Marina how she got the black eye or anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in the bedroom. I was shocked.

"Mama--Lee." Just like that.

So I went in the living room and I said, "Lee, what do you mean by striking Marina?"

He said, "Mother, that is our affair."

And so that ended. I wasn't going to interfere any further.

Now, this has been publicly stated by the Russian friends, that he beat his wife. I don't know if he did beat his wife. I happened to see the black eye. I know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. Marina said so, and my son has said so. But how many times does this happen, I don't know.

But I am trying to point out that I don't approve of it. But I am trying to point out that everything is not according to Hoyle, as we say in our American way of life.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; that is the only time.

And then the children moved to Dallas.

Now, this will end that part of the story.

I have accepted and I have the public papers, in 1959, when Lee went to Russia--I made a statement that as an individual I thought he had a right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. I am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow I may decide to go to Russia, I will go. We are taught that in America, that we have the right to do what we want as an individual. So I publicly stated in 1959 that Lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. And I think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in America and talking about America, and living here and downing his country. It took courage to go and live where he wanted to live.

I was criticized highly for making that statement. And it is published in 1959--as far back as that.

So I will get back now to when the children left.

They did not tell me they had left.

So I accepted the fact that my son Lee did not want me to know that he was in Dallas.

Why I accepted the fact is because of Lee's so-called defection.

I have had it very hard, Mr. Rankin, and gentlemen--I have lost jobs, I was in a position, if I was in a home and television was on, and something political was on television, and the people commented, I felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. Because of the defection I thought if I would express my views they might think I was a Communist like my son was supposed to be. And in many a home I have been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were not needed.

I cannot say, sure it was because of Lee's defection. However, I feel sure that it is, because I am a respected person, and a very good nurse, as has been stated in the paper. And my jobs were gotten from word of mouth.

But you must understand that I deal with a lot of people. So naturally it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because of my son defecting to Russia and presumably being a Communist.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find out where Marina was that day that you tried to locate her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no sir, that ended that.

So I respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he was in Dallas, that I would accept that fact.

Now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that I accept these things. But it is not. I am self-supporting. I have a life of my own. And if Lee decides that that is the way he wants it, I am not going to grieve and worry about it. I have to get my sleep in order to work. I have the ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of God, because of my difficulty in life. I have been a widow. I have had many, many obstacles, and I have had to face them. And my faith gets stronger. I do accept things.

As now, I accept the death of my son. I don't brood over that. I have that ability of doing that.

So I just accepted the fact--when Lee gets ready to let me know where he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he wants.

Now, that is the last contact I have had with Marina and Lee until the news broke in Dallas that Lee was picked up because of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us about this period you were talking about, when he went to Dallas. Was that before or after the time he went to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was before the time, sir--he lived--from my apartment, the Rotary Apartments, when Lee got the job he lived on Mercedes Street from the end of July, I would say, or the beginning of September, until October, when he left to go to Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. What year was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was in 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean '62?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--1962. And that was the last I had seen of Marina and Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever find where they were in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I explained before that I made no attempt. I thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. Up until then, I had to do my own work and take care of myself. And I do respect other people's privileges. If that is the way they want it, fine.

When they get ready to let me know, I will welcome them. If not, I will go about my own business.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you learned they had gone to New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had not learned of that until after the assassination. I knew nothing, I had no contact with them.

So, then, the next thing we should start then would be the Dallas--the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Whatever you know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I was on a case in a rest home, and I had a 3 to 11 shift. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I was watching--I am a little ahead of my story.

I watched the television in the morning before I was dressed. And Richard Nixon was in Dallas, and he made a television appearance approximately 2 hours before President Kennedy was to arrive in Dallas. And, as a layman, I remember saying, "Well, the audacity of him, to make this statement against President Kennedy just an hour or two before his arrival in Dallas."

And then I had my lunch, and I dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to go to work, for the 3 to 11 shift. And I have to leave home at 2:30. So I had a little time to watch the Presidential procession.

And while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the President was shot. And there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on television. However, I could not continue to watch it. I had to report to work.

So I went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away I turned the radio on in the car. I heard that Lee Harvey Oswald was picked up as a suspect.

I immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the telephone, called Acme Brick in Fort Worth, and asked where Robert was, because he had been traveling, and I must get in touch with Robert immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the assassination. So they had Robert call me.

Robert didn't know that Lee was picked up.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this the day of the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked Lee up.

Mr. RANKIN. And 3 to 11--that is in the afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was 2:30, because I was on my way to work, and I had to be at work at 3 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, and it was 2:30 I heard the news and went back home.

I had Acme Brick call Robert to give him the news, and Robert called me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up.

Now, Robert is in Denton. So I called the Star Telegram, and asked that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to Dallas, because I realized I could not drive to Dallas. And they did. They sent two men to escort me to Dallas.

The name of one is Bob Shieffer, the other name I will have for you gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Who are those? Are those reporters?

Mrs. OSWALD. Star Telegram reporters, sent by the Star Telegram editor to escort me to Dallas.

Now, upon arriving in Dallas, I did not ask--I did not want to talk to the police. I asked specifically to talk to FBI agents. My wish was granted, I was sent into a room. I have to backtrack my story.

The policemen do not know I am here--"I want to talk to FBI agents."

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day is this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is approximately 3:30. So I am escorted into an office, and two Brown FBI agents, they are brothers, I understand, and there was another man that I do not know the name.

Mr. RANKIN. By that you mean their names were Brown?

Mrs. OSWALD. Their names were Brown. And I have the correct names, also. But we were in this room, and I told them who I was. And I said, "I want to talk with you gentlemen because I feel like my son is an agent of the government, and for the security of my country, I don't want this to get out."

But, first, I said to them, "I want to talk to FBI agents from Washington."

"Mrs. Oswald, we are from Washington, we work with Washington."

I said, "I understand you work with Washington. But I want officials from Washington," and I believed they would be in town because of protecting the President.

I said, "I do not want local FBI men. What I have to say I want to say to Washington men."

Of course they wanted the news. They said, "Well, we work through Washington."

I said, "I know you do. But I would like Washington men."

So I had no choice.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I am coming to this.

So I said, "I have information that"--I told him who I was.

I said, "For the security of my country, I want this kept perfectly quiet until you investigate. I happen to know that the State Department furnished the money for my son to return back to the United States, and I don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet."

Of course that was news to them.

They left me sitting in the office.

And I also told them that Congressman Jim Wright knew about this.

"You can be sure we will question Jim Wright."

And I gave them the names of the four men I had talked with while in Washington.

Would you like those four names now?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. One is Mr. Boster, who was special counsel in charge of Soviet affairs.

One was Mr. Stanfield. I should know the names.

Well, gentlemen, Mr. Doyle will see that I give you the names of these men. I had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my Washington trip and gave it to the FBI men to investigate.

So they left me.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say you understand that the State Department paid your son's way back from the Soviet Union----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that that was a loan?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have the document to state that they loaned Lee the money to come back.

Mr. RANKIN. But you didn't know that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. But I stated--you see, I was worried about the security of my country. I didn't know if the public would find out--how they would take the news that the State Department loaned him the money, since now he is a Marxist and an accused assassin.

I was worried about my country. And I didn't want the public to know. I wanted the FBI, not the police, to know.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything else that you told them about why you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't tell them anything. But they questioned me, started to question me.

One of them said, "You know a lot about your son. When was the last time you were in touch with him?"

That wasn't the Browns. That was the other man.

I said, "I have not seen my son in a year."

He said sarcastically, "Now, Mrs. Oswald, are we to believe you have not been in touch with your son in a year? You are a mother."

I said, "Believe what you want. But I have not been in touch with my son in a year. My son did not want me involved. He has kept me out of his activities. That is the truth, God's truth, that I have not seen my son in a year."

And the gentleman left, and I did not see them after that.

They sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, and she started to question me.

I said, "Young lady, I am not going to be questioned. You may just as well make up your mind that I am just going to sit here. What I want, if you will relay--have these two Star Telegram men come in here, please. I would like to ask them something."

So they came in. And I said, "Bob, I have rights and I want to see Lee."

Of course the men didn't answer.

But I sat in the office approximately 2 or 3 hours alone, gentlemen, with this woman who came in and out.

I said, "If you think you are going to question me or get information from me, you are not."

And I sat in the office 2 or 3 hours.

Every now and then I would walk up to the outer corridor and say to whoever was there, "Now, listen, I am getting tired of this. I want to see Lee."

Mr. RANKIN. What office was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. The courthouse in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Whose office was it in? Do you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't know. It was a private office that lead--for instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. And then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the police and everybody was.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whose office it was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. And I never did get to see Lee.

So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you there when he was questioned?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service--never, gentlemen. If they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it.

So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."

And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?"

She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me.

She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to interfere."

And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very emotional.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. She acted as interpreter for Marina. We are in the courthouse now, in the jailhouse.

So her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the Dallas police have, is the testimony of Mrs. Paine, that Marina assumed Lee had given her.

Could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that Marina gave--just one interpreter, and Marina's friend, is the testimony that the Dallas police has.

I have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, whether it is the correct testimony.

So Mrs. Paine told me that she acted as interpreter.

And I said, "I don't know what I am going to do. I want to stay in Dallas and be near Lee, so that I can help with this situation as much as possible."

She said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to sleep on the sofa."

I said, "Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, I will accept your offer. I will sleep on the floor in order to be near Dallas."

So we left. We went to Mrs. Paine's home.

I am going to say again I did not see my son.

So--I had my nurse's uniform on for 3 days.

Mr. RANKIN. What day was this at Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night of Friday, November 22d. We arrived there approximately 6 o'clock. Upon entering the home, about 5 minutes after I was in the home, there was a knock on the door.

Now, this is a little vague. On the way leaving the courthouse we may have been in the company of the two Life representatives. They may have taken us to Mrs. Paine's home. I did not ask who was taking us to Mrs. Paine's home, because I was holding my grandbaby and talking to Marina, and sitting in the back of the car. And it didn't interest me at the time how I was getting to Mrs. Paine's home.

Why I am bringing this up was because after I was in her home, about 5 minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two Life representatives entered the home.

The name of the men, one is Allan Grant, and the other is Tommy Thompson.

And I was not introduced.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you ever seen them before?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I had never seen them before. As I say, they could have been the men driving the car. But I want you to understand at the time I didn't notice that, because I was holding my new grandbaby, and comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to Mrs. Paine in the back seat of the car.

So Mrs. Paine sat on the floor. And she said to the photographer--he had a camera in front of him--"Now, I hope you have good color film, because I want good pictures."

Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was approximately 6:30. We had just arrived in Mrs. Paine's home--I would say 6 and 7 o'clock, approximately, between that time. We are home 5 minutes when they knocked on the door.

Mrs. Paine immediately says, "Gentlemen, I hope you have colored film so we will have some good pictures."

I didn't know who they were.

But then I knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the camera.

So Tommy Thompson started to interview Mrs. Paine. He said, "Mrs. Paine, tell me, are Marina and Lee separated, since Lee lives in Dallas?"

She said, "No, they are a happy family. Lee lives in Dallas because of necessity. He works in Dallas, and this is Irving, and he has no transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family."

"Well," he said, "What type family man is he?"

She said, "A normal family man. He plays with his children. Last night he fed June. He watches television and just normal things."

She went on.

So he said, "Mrs. Paine, can you tell me how Lee got, the money to"--I am sorry--"can you tell me how Lee was able to return back to the United States financially?"

She said, "Oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the United States."

Now, while this little episode went on, I was fuming, gentlemen, because I didn't want this type of publicity. I thought it was uncalled for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of my son.

But I was in Mrs. Paine's home.

Now I had an opportunity to be gracious. I spoke up and I said--I am ahead of myself.

She answered that he saved the money.

I spoke up and I said, "Now, Mrs. Paine, I am sorry. I am in your home. And I appreciate the fact that I am a guest in your home. But I will not have you making statements that are incorrect. Because I happen to know you have made an incorrect statement. To begin with, I do not approve of this publicity. And if we are going to have the life story with Life magazine"--by that time I knew what it was--"I would like to get paid. Here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and I, myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, I believe we should get paid for it."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think Mrs. Paine was trying to get paid for it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Possibly. But I do know this. It was prearranged. That is the point that is important. That after a few hours time, the Life representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she expected them, you see.

Mr. RANKIN. You think she arranged it, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, possibly with Marina's help.

I do not know. It was arranged--I am positive--the way they entered the home. She invited them in, without even introducing me. And immediately said she hoped they had color film.

Mr. RANKIN. Were they talking to each other, Marina, and Mrs. Paine, while you were there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they talked in Russian. And that is a difficult part. I didn't know Russian.

Then, with that, the Life representative got up and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of your life story."

So he did call the office. He closed the door and called in private. And nothing was said--in the living room.

When I say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other representative. Mrs. Paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in Russian. I was talking to my daughter-in-law in English. It was a regular general conversation, as far as I knew.

He came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the company would not allow him to pay for the story. What they would do--they would pay our expenses while in Dallas, and our food and expenses, hotel accommodation.

So I told him that I would think about it.

Now, they continued to hang around. And they were taking pictures continuously, all the while this was going on--the photographer, Mr. Allen was continuously taking pictures. I was awfully tired and upset. I rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in Life Magazine. And he stopped that. So I got up and said, "I am not having this invasion of privacy. I realize that I am in Mrs. Paine's home. But you are taking my picture without my consent, and a picture that I certainly don't want made public." It is the worst--with me rolling my hose. I wanted to get comfortable.

He followed Marina around in the bedroom. She was undressing June. He took pictures of everything. And Mrs. Paine was in her glory--I will say this. Mrs. Paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. And I had to go behind Marina to see that the photographers were not taking her, and they were taking me. And it was just a regular--the home was a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all going around in circles.

And the photographer was taking pictures, until finally I became indignant, and said, "I have had it. Now, find out what accommodations you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and I so that we can be in Dallas to help Lee, and let me know in the morning."

So they left.

However, about an hour later there was a telephone call to Mrs. Paine from a Life representative. I know by her conversation who she was talking to.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. One of the men--either Allen Grant or Tommy Thompson.

And after the conversation, I said to her, "Was that one of the Life representatives?"

And she said, "Oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened."

So I got no information there.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to take a short recess, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am getting thirsty.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we do. We will take one for about 10 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, we are in Mrs. Paine's home yet.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is on the day of the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the 22d, Friday, the 22d.

I am worried because Lee hasn't had an attorney. And I am talking about that, and Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I am a member of the Civil Liberties Union, and Lee will have an attorney, I can assure you."

I said to myself but when? Of course, I didn't want to push her, argue with her. But the point was if she was a member of the Union, why didn't she see Lee had an attorney then. So I wasn't too happy about that.

Now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts.

My daughter-in-law spoke to Mrs. Paine in Russian. "Mamma," she says. So she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. She said, "Mamma, I show you." She opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of books and papers. And she came out with a picture--a picture of Lee, with a gun.

It said, "To my daughter June"--written in English.

I said, "Oh, Marina, police." I didn't think anything of the picture.

Now, you must understand that I don't know what is going on on television--I came from the jailhouse and everything, so I don't know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son by this time. I had no way of knowing. But I say to my daughter, "To my daughter, June," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. You yourself probably have a rifle. So I am not connecting this with the assassination--"To my daughter, June." Because I would immediately say, and I remember--I think my son is an agent all the time--no one is going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the President, or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, and leave that there for evidence.

So, I didn't think a thing about it. And it says "To my daughter, June." I said, "The police," meaning that if the police got that, they would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think.

She says, "You take, Mamma."

I said, "No."

"Yes, Mamma, you take."

I said, "No, Marina. Put back in the book." So she put the picture back in the book. Which book it was, I do not know.

So the next day, when we are at the courthouse--this is on Saturday--she--we were sitting down, waiting to see Lee. She puts her shoe down, she says, "Mamma, picture." She had the picture folded up in her shoe.

Now, I did not see that it was the picture, but I know that it was, because she told me it was, and I could see it was folded up. It wasn't open for me to see. I said, "Marina." Just like that. So Robert came along and he says, "Robert" I said, "No, no Marina." I didn't want her to tell Robert about the picture. Right there, you know. That was about the picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell her to destroy the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, I have to go into this. I want to tell you about destroying the picture.

Now, that was in Mrs. Paine's home.

I want to start to remember--because when we leave Mrs. Paine's home, we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. So I have to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions.

Mr. RANKIN. No, you go right ahead.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine, in front of me, gave Marina $10. Now, Mrs. Paine, when I said, after the representatives left--I said, "You know, I do want to get paid for the story, because I am destitute, and here is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money for attorneys, with two babies."

She said, "You don't have to worry about Marina. Marina will always have a home with me, because Marina helps."

Now, Mrs. Paine speaks Russian fluently. "She helps me with my Russian language. She babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you never have to worry about Marina. She will always have a home with me."

Now, Mr. and Mrs. Paine are separated. Mr. Paine does not live here. So it is just the two women.

So, Mrs. Paine didn't graciously do anything for Marina, as the paper stated--that Lee never did pay Mrs. Paine for room or board. Mrs. Paine owes them money. That is almost the kind of work that I do, or the airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. Marina was earning her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what I am trying to say, gentlemen, Mrs. Paine had Marina there to help babysit with the children, with her children--if she wanted to go running around and everything.

So actually she wasn't doing my son or Marina the favor that she claims she was doing.

But the point I am trying to stress is that she did tell me Marina would never have to worry, because Marina would have a home with her.

At this particular moment, I cannot remember anything of importance in the house. Otherwise, about the picture I have stated. And Mrs. Paine with the Life representative, and her saying that Lee would have an attorney, and Mrs. Paine giving Marina a $10 bill.

Oh, Marina told me, "Mamma, I have this money." It was money in an envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. I said, "How much money, Marina."

"About how much?" I asked her.

"About $100 and some."

Now, Mrs. Paine has stated to the Life representative that Lee and Marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for Christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at Christmas time--in order to celebrate Christmas. So, the hundred and some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that Lee paid $8 a week room in Dallas--and it has been stated by the landlady that Lee ate lunchmeat or fruit. And Lee was very, very thin when I saw him. And Lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for Christmas.

So, that is not a lot of money to have in the house--I would not think so, because I believe Lee was earning about $50 a week. And let's say he could live for about $10 or $12. And he gave the rest of the money to his wife.

And so I reported this money to the Secret Service while we were in Six Flags--that Marina had the money. I wanted them to know. She showed me the money.

I cannot think now--I did think of the money after going back--but I cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any benefit that happened in this house.

Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the photograph, I will show you some photographs. Maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you are referring to. Here is Commission's Exhibit 134.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is not the picture.

Mr. RANKIN. And 133, consists of two different pictures.

Mrs. OSWALD.. No, sir, that is not the picture. He was holding the rifle up, and it said, "To my daughter, June, with love." He was holding the rifle up.

Mr. RANKIN. By holding it up, you mean----

Mrs. OSWALD.. Like this.

Mr. RANKIN. Crosswise, with both hands on the rifle?

Mrs. OSWALD.. With both hands on the rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Above his head?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see these pictures, Exhibits 133 and 134?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen those pictures.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you were going to tell us about some further discussion of the picture you did see?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--all right.

Now, so the next morning the two representatives of the Life Magazine, Mr. Allen Grant and Mr. Tommy Thompson come by at 9 o'clock with a woman, Russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. I have not been able to find this woman. I have called the universities, thinking that she was a language teacher, and I--maybe you have her name. But she is very, very important to our story.

And I do want to locate her, if possible.

During the night, I had decided I was going to take up their offer, because I would be besieged by reporters and everything. So why not go with the Life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and my daughter-in-law's. They came by at 9 o'clock, without calling, with this Russian interpreter. So Marina was getting dressed and getting the children dressed. He was taking pictures all the time.

Mr. RANKIN. They came by where?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mrs. Paine's home. And there was no hurry, though, to leave the home, because Mrs. Paine was most anxious for the Life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and everything--whether Marina has any part in this I don't know, because they spoke Russian, and she didn't tell me about it. But I know Mrs. Paine did.

We left with the two Life representatives. They brought us to the Hotel Adolphus in Dallas. I immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the phone and called Captain Will Fritz, to see if Marina and I could see Lee at the jailhouse.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?

Mrs. OSWALD. He is one of the big men in Dallas on this case.

Mr. RANKIN. The Chief of Detectives, or something like that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And I called him from the hotel, and the man that answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that I wanted to see if Marina and I could see Lee. I waited on the phone. He came back and said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, Captain Fritz said you may see Lee at 12 o'clock today."

We arrived at the Adolphus Hotel between 9:30 and 10:00.

Mr. RANKIN. This was what day?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was Saturday, November 23, the morning of Saturday, November 23.

While we were there, an FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum entered the room with another agent, and wanted Marina to accompany him to be questioned.

Mr. RANKIN. Were these FBI agents?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; Mr. Hart Odum is an FBI agent. And I said, "No, we are going to see Lee." We were all eating breakfast when he came in. I said, "No, we have been promised to see Lee. She is not going with you."

So he said, "Well, will you tell Mrs. Oswald, please"--to the interpreter, "I would like to question her and I would like her to come with me to be questioned."

I said, "It is no good. You don't need to tell the interpreter that, because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. We have been promised to see Lee. And besides Marina has testified, made her statement at the courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that Marina will make will be through counsel."

Mr. Odum said to the interpreter, "Mrs. Oswald"--to the interpreter--"will you tell Mrs. Oswald to decide what she would like to do and not listen to her mother-in-law."

I said, "It is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, Mr. Odum, without counsel."

And I had been telling Marina, "No, no."

She said, "I do, Mamma," she kept saying.

Just then my son, Robert, entered the room, and Mr. Odum said, "Robert, we would like to take Marina and question her."

He said, "No, I am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both she and Lee."

So he left.

We went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the courthouse my son, Robert, was being interviewed by--I don't know whether it was Secret Service or FBI agents--in a glass enclosure. We were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. We were sitting on the bench right there.

Mr. RANKIN. Where was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the Dallas courthouse, on Saturday.

So we waited quite a while. One of the men came by and said "I am sorry that we are going to be delayed in letting you see Lee, but we have picked up another suspect."

I said, to Marina, "Oh, Marina, good, another man they think maybe shoot Kennedy."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask anything about who this suspect was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. He just give the information why we would be delayed. We sat out there quite a while. The police were very nice. They helped us about the baby. We went into another room for privacy, for Marina to nurse Rachel. It was 2 or 3 hours before we got to see Lee. We went upstairs and were allowed to see Lee. This was in the jail--the same place I had been from the very beginning, and we were taken upstairs. And by the way, they only issued a pass for Marina and myself, and not for Robert. And Robert was very put out, because he thought he was also going to see his brother. Whether Robert saw his brother or not, I do not know, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of day was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute now. We arrived there at 12 o'clock. This would be about 4 or 4:30 in the afternoon, before we got to see Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present when he saw you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Marina and I were escorted back of the door where they had an enclosure and telephones. So Marina got on the telephone and talked to Lee in Russian. That is my handicap. I don't know what was said. And Lee seemed very severely composed and assured. He was well-beaten up. He had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and everything. But he was very calm. He smiled with his wife, and talked with her, and then I got on the phone and I said, "Honey, you are so bruised up, your face. What are they doing?"

He said, "Mother, don't worry. I got that in a scuffle."

Now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. That was a boy's way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. He said that was done in the scuffle. So I talked and said, "Is there anything I can do to help you?"

He said, "No, Mother, everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I have already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is the name. Don't worry about a thing."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about another suspect?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not. That was my entire conversation to him.

Gentlemen, you must realize this. I had heard over the television my son say, "I did not do it. I did not do it."

And a million of the other people had heard him. I say this. As a mother--I heard my son say this. But also as a citizen, if I had heard another man say, I didn't do it, I will have to believe that man, because he hasn't been--hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the case. So here is my son. When I saw him people had said, "Did you ask him if he did it?"

No, sir. I think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. I would not insult my son and ask him if he shot at President Kennedy. Why? Because I myself heard him say, "I didn't do it, I didn't do it."

So, that was enough for me, I would not ask that question.

Mr. RANKIN. Who told you that there was--they had found another suspect?

Mrs. OSWALD. One of the officers. That, sir, I don't know. He just walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been approximately 1 o'clock that day.

Mr. RANKIN. But you don't remember the officer's name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, that is all he said and he left. He was just relaying why we would be delayed. But it was also published. I do not have the paper or the information. But I do know from the reporters, when I told my story, that part to them--they said that substantiates the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time.

Mr. RANKIN. About how long did you and Marina spend there with your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say I spent about 3 or 4 minutes on the telephone, and then Marina came back to the telephone and talked with Lee. So we left. So Marina started crying. Marina says, "Mamma, I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he love me very much. And Lee tell me to make sure I buy shoes for June."

Now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a President. This is the next day, or let's say about 24 hours that he has been questioned. His composure is good. And he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes.

Now, June was wearing shoes belonging to Mrs. Paine's little girl, Marina told me--they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was worn. They were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like children wear out their toes.

I ask you this, gentlemen. If Marina had a hundred and some odd dollars in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? Just a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have bought shoes for this particular child.

Another way to look at this, as I stated previously--that the boy is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful predicament. So he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going to be all right, as he told me.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to your son, can you explain a little bit to the Commission how that is? Was your son on the other side of a wall or something?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. My son was on the other side of the wall, and then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was.

Now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the officer, to my son. Then a glass partition and then glass partitions like telephone booths. But not really inclosed--just a little separation.

Mr. RANKIN. So you could not reach in there and take your son's hand?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. We talked by telephone.

Mr. RANKIN. And he had a telephone on his side, and----

Mrs. OSWALD. And he had a telephone.

Mr. RANKIN. And you talked back and forth?

Mrs. OSWALD. Back and forth, that is right. That is the way we talked. And the boy was badly beat up. I have proof in the papers--his face, black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. He was badly beat up. But he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got some of the bruises in the scuffle. As I say, the boy, if he was being mistreated, would not tell his mother that.

Mr. RANKIN. And whatever Marina said to him was in Russian, and you didn't understand it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not understand. But I would say this, it seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. He was smiling. And she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, and told about buying the shoes for the baby. That is all she said. She did not tell me any other part of the conversation. And they talked quite a while. She talked with him twice. She talked with him the first time. I got on the phone. Then she talked to him again.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it sound like there was any dispute or argument?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was a pleasant conversation. But she did not volunteer to tell me what was said, and I did not ask her what was said.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. So then after that we went back to the Adolphus Hotel. And upon arriving at the hotel--I am a little ahead of my story.

The police and the detectives at the Dallas jail were most courteous to Marina and I. There were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. And we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was shot. And they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try to avoid the reporters. And there were approximately six or seven in the elevator. When we got down there, there were just a few reporters, and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. We were at the Adolphus Hotel as I explained to you. And instead of from the jail going straight to the Adolphus Hotel, they drove around 20 or 25 minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following Marina and I.

So, as we got to the floor of the Adolphus Hotel, we knocked on the door where we were, and no one answered. We were with two men. Immediately around the corner comes Mr. Tommy Thompson, the Life representative.

Mr. RANKIN. What two men were you with?

Mrs. OSWALD. Two men from the Dallas courthouse.

Mr. RANKIN. From the police?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, from the police.

So Mr. Tommy Thompson came and they asked for his credentials. I had never even--as thorough as I am trying to be--I am trying to tell you there are some things I don't know because of the confusion--I didn't ask for the credentials. I could have been with anybody. I just assumed they were Life representatives. I had not asked. But these Dallas detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked Mr. Tommy Thompson for his credentials, and then left us in his care again.

Immediately Mr. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what do you plan to do now?"

The interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, Mr. Allen Grant.

I said, "Well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses."

He said, "But you have not given us any facts."

They were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. They did not even ask if we saw Lee. Yet they knew we left the Adolphus Hotel in order to go see Lee. But they did not even ask if we saw Lee. And I have often wondered about that.

So when I told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you are. Just a minute."

He got on the telephone. Mr. Allen Grant--they had a Life--the Life representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of men working on this case, and we were on the 11th, I believe. So Mr. Allen Grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--I do not know his name--because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things of this sort. He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--they left. Tommy Thompson said, "Mrs. Oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money for your expenses in case you need anything."

Well, I took the bill, and I put it in my uniform pocket without looking at it. That may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is confusion. I knew it was money, and I just put it in my uniform pocket.

So Mr. Allen Grant escorted my daughter-in-law and I out of the hotel, the Adolphus Hotel, and took us to the Executive Inn, which is on the outskirts of Dallas. We sat in the car. He went in and came out, then, and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I have arranged for you all to stay here for 2 or 3 days. I have to be back in San Francisco. Anything you want you have your cash that Mr. Tommy Thompson gave you. And he will be in touch with you."

Well, I didn't think too much of it. He escorted us with a porter up to our room.

We had two beautiful suites--two, not one--completed rooms and baths, adjoining, at the Executive Inn. And that was the last time I had seen either representative. I was stranded with a Russian girl and two babies. I didn't realize in the beginning. But then it was time for food, and I had to order food. I told Marina to stay aside and that I would let the man in. She stayed in her room. I let this man in with the food, and then I became uneasy, that he might know who we were is what I was uneasy about, because I didn't realize the danger actually Marina and I were in.

I sensed we were alone. And there I was with a Russian girl. And I didn't want anybody to know who we were, because I knew my son had been picked up.

So this is where the picture comes in.

While there, Marina--there is an ashtray on the dressing table. And Marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and strikes a match to it. And this is the picture of the gun that Marina tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it.

Now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. So the match didn't take it completely.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you said anything to her about burning it before that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The last time I had seen the picture was in Marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was in her shoe. I state here now that Marina meant for me to have that picture, from the very beginning, in Mrs. Paine's home. She said--I testified before--"Mamma, you keep picture."

And then she showed it to me in the courthouse. And when I refused it, then she decided to get rid of the picture.

She tore up the picture and struck a match to it. Then I took it and flushed it down the toilet.

Mr. RANKIN. And what time was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this I know is very important to me and to you, too.

We had been in the jail. This was an evening. Well, this, then, would be approximately 5:30 or 6 in the evening.

Mr. RANKIN. What day?

Mrs. OSWALD. On Saturday, November 23. Now, I flushed the torn bits and the half-burned thing down the commode. And nothing was said. There was nothing said.

Mr. RANKIN. That was at the Executive Inn?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the Executive Inn.

Now, Mr. Hart Odum, the same FBI agent, that insisted upon my daughter-in-law going with him from the Adolphus Hotel, knocked on the door at the Executive Inn. I had had my robe and slippers on, and I pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. He said, "This is Mr. Odum."

So, I opened the door. This is very important. I would like to not talk about it. I would like to show you what I did. This is so important.

I opened the door just a little, because I had the robe off and I didn't want anybody to come in. The door is just ajar. I am going to take my shoes off, gentlemen, because I have this worked out. This is my height. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, we would like to see Marina."

I said, "Mr. Odum, I stated yesterday you are not going to see Marina. We are awful tired."

"Well, we just want to ask her one question."

"Mr. Odum, I am not calling my daughter. As a matter of fact, she is taking a bath."

She wasn't.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, I would like to ask you a question."

I said, "Yes, sir." The door is ajar. This is my height. I wear bifocals, which enlarges things. And in his hand--his hand is bigger than mine--in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. And the two corners are torn off the picture. This is a very glossy black and white picture of a man's face and shoulder.

Now, Mr. Odum wasn't too tall. I need somebody else. Mr. Odum's hand with the picture--what I am trying to say--he is facing this way--showing me. So my eyes are looking straight at the picture. And I have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because the door is ajar. And there is nothing on the picture but a face and shoulders. There is no background or anything. So I can identify this picture amongst millions of pictures, I am so sure of it. It was a glossy black and white picture. So I said, "No, sir, believe me. I have never seen this picture in my life."

With that, he went off.

There was another man with him.

About an hour later the telephone rang, and it was Mrs. Paine. She said, "Mrs. Oswald, Lee called and he was very upset because Marina was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a Mr. Abt. I would like to talk to Marina."

So I put Marina on the telephone, and Marina said about two or three words.

So when she got off the telephone, I said,--Now, Marina talks in Russian, gentlemen. I said, "Marina, Mrs. Paine told me that Lee called and you were not home at Mrs. Paine, and Lee tells Mrs. Paine to get a lawyer."

Marina didn't answer.

And I then sensed--well, now, why isn't she answering me? This is very peculiar.

And there was no more said about that conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask her about this lawyer?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ask Marina?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was no more said about this conversation.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't say anything about Mr. Abt to her then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But here is the point to this whole thing.

The FBI agent would have to know where we were, and Mrs. Paine would have to know where we were, because of these two Life representatives, who, I am assuming, probably went back to Mrs. Paine's home in order to get more information. And she--they would have told her where we were, because no one knew where we were. This girl and I had no protection or anything. We were sent out there with this Mr. Allen Grant, the representative. And no one knew who we were. And Mr. Hart Odum would have to know where we were through Mrs. Paine, which is a normal procedure, let's say. He might have gone to Mrs. Paine's home looking for Marina there, and Mrs. Paine might have told him we were at the Executive Inn. I will grant that.

But the point I am going to make is that the picture was tried to be shown to Marina before the telephone conversation.

Now, if there are any questions why I say that, I would be happy to answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes--why do you say that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because they wanted Marina----

Mr. DULLES. Could we get what picture this is? Is that the picture held in the hand?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--the picture that is held in the hand, that the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum showed me.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at all.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I told Mr. Hart Odum I had never seen the man before, "Believe me, sir," and he left.

So the picture was shown--was tried--had tried to be shown to my daughter-in-law, but they were not successful.

So then they received--Marina receives a telephone call.

Now, I am under the impression, since I know it was Mr. Jack Ruby's picture I saw--at the time I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I have seen his picture in the paper. Now I know it is Mr. Jack Ruby.

I am under the impression that Marina was threatened----

Mr. RANKIN. What was the date now?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Saturday, November 23d. This is approximately 6:30 in the evening, that the FBI agent came. And the telephone call was later.

Now, I have no way of knowing whether Lee had permission to use the telephone. Remember, Lee is in jail.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time do you think the telephone call was?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say it was about 7:30, 8 o'clock in the night.

Mr. RANKIN. That was still on Saturday night?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, still on Saturday night at the Executive Inn. And that was after the picture was shown to me--she received this telephone call, and became very silent.

And the next day my son was shot.

Now, it is now that I have done investigation of this case that I believe that the picture was meant for Marina to see, meant for Marina to see.

Mr. RANKIN. Why do you think that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because now it has been proven that Jack Ruby killed my son. And I think there is a connection there. Because Marina did not tell me about her conversation. And you men hold the answer whether Lee used the telephone from the jailhouse. I don't know that.

Mr. RANKIN. You base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive at now, do you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because of the FBI agent, Mr. Hart Odum, insistence on taking my daughter-in-law--and he being the same agent that came and showed the picture. And Mr. Ruby being the man that shot Lee--yes, these are definite conclusions.

Mr. RANKIN. That is what you base it on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is what I base it on.

Mr. DULLES. Do I understand correctly that Marina did not see the picture at any time?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. But they tried awfully hard for Marina to see the picture.

Mr. RANKIN. And when they could not show it to her----

Mrs. OSWALD. They showed it to me--yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever seen that picture since?

Mrs. OSWALD. On a Wednesday--Lee was shot on a Sunday--neither Marina nor I knew how he was shot. They kept it from us. You have to visualize this.

We were at the Six Flags with approximately 18 to 20 FBI agents, Secret Service men running in and out, a woman with a Russian girl and two sick babies, and the girl and I do not know what is going on.

Mr. RANKIN. When you had gotten over to the Six Flags, you must have skipped something there--you were in the Executive Inn before.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I was going to make a point about letting you know why I didn't know.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--let's go back to the Executive Inn.

So that night I was very upset and very worried. I realized that we were there alone. And we were not going to go in town, into Dallas. I wasn't going to take this Russian girl and the two babies. And the babies were all chapped. We had no diapers. We were not prepared for this. And it was hectic, gentlemen.

So all night long I am wondering how can I get in touch with Robert, what can I do.

And I was a little suspicious of Mrs. Paine. I was suspicious of Mrs. Paine from the time I entered her home.

Mr. RANKIN. Had you found out how much money the Life man gave you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, not even yet.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. So I signed for the food. I called the operator and I asked the operator what name the room was registered under. She said, "Well, this is an unusual request. Don't you know what room--what name?"

I said, "Frankly, I don't. We are three couples. I don't know which name they used."

So she told me that the room was registered under Mrs. Allen Grant, which is the name of the Life representative. So I charged and signed. And they would have that for proof--Mrs. Allen Grant, on the food.

Mr. RANKIN. Why did you say three couples?

Mrs. OSWALD. I just said that to the operator, because I had to give her a reason why I didn't know which name the room was registered under.

So I just wanted to elaborate a little bit--let her know. I didn't want to give my name. Because I was by this time a little concerned about the situation.

During the night I thought--"We are in a position here, I am in a position with a Russian girl and two babies, and I just don't know what to do."

I had no contact with Robert. Robert was trying to get an attorney. And I didn't know if Robert knew where we were. And I did not want to call Mrs. Paine. I wanted to stay clear of Mrs. Paine.

So this is a very unusual coincidence.

Now, I have to go back a little bit. But, believe me, gentlemen, the story will get together for you to understand.

About 1 month prior to this, there was an ad in a Fort Worth paper that the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was Russian classes.

Well, I then, as I told you--I was employed for the 3 to 11 shift. And I was getting a day off. And this would have been a steady job because this woman was not that sick, just an invalid.

So I decided on my day off I wanted to do something. So I decided I would call up about it, and on my day off--make Tuesday my day off and take up Russian in case--because I had always hoped in my heart that Marina and Lee would contact me some day. After all, I am a mother first.

So I went to the library. And Mr. Peter Gregory was the instructor.

Now, you must remember--I did not know that he knew Marina and Lee. This is public notice for the Russian language.

So Mr. Peter Gregory is the instructor.

I went to the second class. My car broke down just one block from the library, and I had to have it towed, and I went to the class. And Mr. Peter Gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his classes to start. I said I don't imagine I will learn anything, because my car has broken down and I am pretty upset. And Mr. Gregory said, "Where do you live, Mrs. Oswald? Maybe I could help you and take you home." And the other couple said, "We would be happy."

And I said I live in Arlington Heights. And he happens to live about 10 blocks away.

Now, I have to go back.

The point I am going to make is this: Mr. Peter Gregory is the engineer who knew my son Robert, who was friends with Lee and Marina. Yet when I registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take the Spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that Mr. Gregory did not remember me as the mother of Lee--didn't acknowledge me as the mother of Lee? I find that very peculiar.

Even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment.

So I went home with Mr. Peter Gregory. And there was still no acknowledgment.

So we were talking about the Russian language, that is is very hard to learn. And I said, "I am sure I will never master it." And I thought I think I will tell him why I want to take lessons is because of my Russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks Russian. But I didn't do it.

But I am going to point out again that Mr. Gregory did not acknowledge me.

I am going to give and take. Maybe he didn't connect me. But it would seem very odd--Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was the name--that he didn't connect as Marina's mother-in-law and Lee's mother, when he was such a friend with them.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear as to what lessons you were taking.

Mrs. OSWALD. Russian lessons at the public library in Fort Worth, Tex., and Mr. Gregory was the teacher.

Mr. RANKIN. You said something about Spanish.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, did I? I am sorry. No, sir, the Russian language.

The CHAIRMAN. What days were these?

Mr. RANKIN. What days were these that you talked to Mr. Gregory?

Mrs. OSWALD. You mean the Russian language?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not have this information. But I can get it for you from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was just right before the assassination. I had taken two lessons. Yes, I had taken two lessons, and then I didn't go for the third lesson, because this was on a Friday--the lessons were on a Tuesday. So I had taken two lessons, the two Tuesdays prior to the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

So it would be around a little over 3 weeks before the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Two Tuesdays before, and then my next lesson would have been the Tuesday after the Friday of the assassination.

Yes, sir, that is the time.

So then I thought of Mr. Gregory.

Now, believe me, gentlemen--and I will swear again, if you want me to--nothing was said about Mr. Gregory and Marina being friends. But I do have a guardian angel. And, as I go along, some of the things I know have been from this guardian angel.

This was just a coincidence.

I thought of calling Mr. Peter Gregory. I have no friends in Fort Worth. I never--I live a very lonely life. I am not lonely. But I live to myself. I am kept very busy. I had my work, 24 hour duty. So really I have no friends. And because of Lee's defection, I didn't make any new friends.

So I am racking my mind who can I call for help. And I think of Mr. Peter Gregory. So I call Mr. Peter Gregory at 6:30 in the morning, Sunday, the 24th--Sunday morning the 24th.

And I didn't want the hotel operator to know who I was. So I gave a fictitious name. He said, "I am sorry,"--I said, "I can't tell you who I am, Mr. Gregory."

I am ahead of my story.

Marina, when I said, "Marina, we need help, honey. I am going to call a Mr. Gregory."

And I told her about me taking Russian lessons.

"Oh, Mama, I know Mr. Gregory, Lee know Mr. Gregory, the man at the library that gives Russian lessons."

So I find that very much of a coincidence.

So I called Mr. Gregory. I said, "Mr. Gregory, I won't say who I am, but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and I am in trouble, sir. I am over here."

He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anybody I don't know."

Mr. RANKIN. What name did you give him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't give him any name.

He said, "I am sorry, but I won't talk to anyone I don't know."

And I said again, "Well, you know my son real well."

He said, "Oh, you are Mrs. Oswald."

I said, "Yes sir, this is Mrs. Oswald. We are at the Executive Inn in Dallas, stranded. And do you know of anyone who would give my daughter-in-law and I a home, and put us up for the time that this is going on, so we can be near Lee at the courthouse? I need help. Mr. Gregory."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, what is your room number? I will help you. Hold still. Help will be coming."

And so that was the end of my conversation with Mr. Gregory.

At 11:30 Sunday, November 23d, my son Robert and Mr. Gregory came to the Executive Inn, all excited. We had diapers strung all over the place. My uniform was washed. I had no clothes with me.

I went with the uniform.

"Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this time. I said, "What's your hurry? We have the diapers and all. I want to tell you what happened."

"Mother, Mother stop talking. We have to get you out of here."

Mr. Gregory said, "Mrs. Oswald, will you listen and get things together. We have to get you out of here."

I said, "That is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from one place to the other. Give us just a minute. We are coming, but we have to pack things."

"Hurry up."

I said, "I want you to know how we got here. I was shown a picture of a man last night. And Mrs. Paine called and said that Lee called."

I told him exactly.

So Mr. Gregory and Robert knew about the things I told you. I told him that while I am gathering up the things.

"Mrs. Oswald, we will talk later. We have to get you out of here."

I have found out since that my son was shot. But they did not tell us.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have a television in this room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Now, here is another Godsend. We watched the television, Marina and I. She watched more than I did. We were very busy, Mr. Rankin. The babies had diarrhea and everything. I was very busy with the babies and the Russian girl. And just like at the end of the Six Flags, we were just getting snatches of it. But Marina wanted to know, "Mama, I want see Lee." She was hoping Lee would come on the picture, like he did. So this morning, Sunday morning, I said, "Oh, honey, let's turn the television off. The same thing over and over."

And I turned the television off. So Marina and I did not see what happened to my son.

We had the television off.

So we did not know.

But frantically Robert and Mr. Gregory kept insisting that we pack and run.

So when we get downstairs, here was Secret Service men all over.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, before you leave that, what did Robert say about the story about the picture, when you told him that? Did he say anything?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He and Mr. Gregory both didn't want to listen to me. I told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. They wanted to get us out of here.

Mr. RANKIN. They didn't say anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, not that I can recall. And I don't believe they did. They didn't want to hear what I had to say. They kept fussing at me and saying "Mother, stop talking. Hurry up, we have got to get you out of here."

I kept saying, "All we have been doing is run from one place to the other. The diapers are wet."

I was kind of having my way about this.

So when we get downstairs, there is Secret Service all around.

I am ahead of my story.

Robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when I gave Robert the money, and it was a $50 bill that the Life representative had given to me. They gave me some money. I took it out----

Mr. RANKIN. That is the first time you looked at it?

Mrs. OSWALD. The first time I looked at it, sir. I charged the food, and I had no need for money. Wait a minute--I am wrong. Yes.

Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald--didn't you say you had washed your uniform?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Representative FORD. When you washed your uniform, didn't you----

Mrs. OSWALD. Just a minute, if you let me explain. I just said I was wrong. The first time--it was Puerto Rican that brought the dinner in. We needed baby lotion for the baby. And then I took the bill out and I saw it was a $50 bill, because he went to the drug store--I gave him the $50 bill, this Puerto Rican, that brought the food in--the first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities that Marina and I needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and everything. And he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a Sunday. And so I did know about the $50 bill before this time.

And then when Robert came, I gave Robert the $50 bill and he went downstairs to pay the bill.

Now, the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert used the $50 to pay the bill. The bill was not paid. So we were really stranded. Those men left two women stranded.

Now, let me see if there is anything I have forgotten.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you put the $50 after the Puerto Rican brought it back?

Mrs. OSWALD. In my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes I had. I kept it in my pocket.

Mr. RANKIN. When you washed your uniform----

Mrs. OSWALD. I naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, because I stated I gave Robert the $50 bill to pay the hotel. But that was all the clothes I had. You have to visualize that all of this is really rush business. We are doing all this in a hurry.

So I didn't even put it in my pocketbook. And I would not be the type to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $50 bill and all the money I have to get out of the hotel--I don't know if I am going to get help--so I want to keep it on my person, just like I keep my important papers right now on my person.

I took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, I know. This can be proven by the bellhop who brought the food. And he went to the drug store, and the drug store was closed on Sunday. And we did not get the lotion. And I gave him the $50 bill to buy the things with.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after you paid the bill there----

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert paid the bill.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened next?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing was said about the bill. I didn't know then that the representatives had not paid the bill. Robert took the $50 and checked us out. Then the Secret Service----

Mr. DULLES. Could we have the time when you checked out?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--approximately 11:30 to 12 o'clock, on Sunday.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the amount of the bill?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Since then I have called Robert and Robert said the amount of the bill was 40-some-odd dollars--about $48, I believe. That is what Robert told me. I have no way of knowing, otherwise than what Robert told me.

And I would think so. If I remember correctly the rooms were $17.50. I told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. And the rooms were $17.50. And we had some meals. So that would make it about 40-some-odd dollars.

Mr. RANKIN. And then after Robert checked you out, what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then Robert got in a car with Secret Service, and then Marina and I and Mr. Gregory were in another car, with two Secret Service agents in the front.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you go someplace?

Mrs. OSWALD. Here comes me again. They wanted to take us--as soon as we got in the car Mr. Gregory says, "We are taking you to Robert's mother-in-law's house."

Now, they live out of Boyd, Tex., in the country. Boyd, Tex., is a little bit of country town. But they live in a little farm house. They are dairy people--Robert's in-laws. And they wanted to take us there, which would have been approximately 45 miles from Dallas.

And I said, "No, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the country. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

"Well, for security reasons, this is the best place. Nobody would ever find it."

I said, "Security reasons? You can give security for me in a hotel room in town. I am not going out in this little country town. I want to be in Dallas where I can help Lee."

And so I am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. But I would not go.

I could not survive if I was 40 or 50 miles away and my son was picked up as a murderer. I had to be right there in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this was after----

Mrs. OSWALD. When they left the Executive Inn, when we got in the car.

Mr. RANKIN. And this was after your son was killed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, yes, but they didn't know this.

Mr. RANKIN. And Robert didn't know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. They kept it from us--I guess being women. Marina and I did not even know he was shot.

I will go on to that story and tell you. No, sir, we did not know.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service people didn't tell you either?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; nothing was said. They wanted us for security reasons----

Mr. DULLES. If the time is 11:30----

Mr. RANKIN. They left at 12 or 12:30, I thought.

Mr. DULLES. You said 11:30 to 12.

Mrs. OSWALD. Approximately that time.

Mr. DULLES. It might not have taken place.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was shot. But at this time I am telling you I don't know this.

This has to go in sequence, sir. Lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have had all these Secret Service men around. But I know then after that Lee was shot. Not now--I do not know this.

Are there any questions? I am willing to answer anything you want to ask.

If you will bear with me, I can go into----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn at what time of that Sunday he was shot?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. You never did?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not until about 3 days later. That is what I was telling you about Six Flags. I am trying to explain to you why I don't know these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and read papers. Marina and I--I had two sick babies there. There was a doctor coming in twice a day. I was a very busy woman. And the men were not telling us anything. They were not interested in us.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a hotel, you could be protected there, what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then, of course, nothing was said that they were going to give me my way. But we needed clothes--Marina and the baby needed clothes. So then they decided that they should go to Irving, through my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for Marina and the baby, because we were short on diapers. So they are going to Irving.

We got to Irving. There is police cars all around. So that is why I feel sure my son was shot.

Mr. RANKIN. How far away is that from this Executive Inn?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would think--now, this is just hearsay. But I would think it is about 12 to 15 or 18 miles.

When we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. And there were cars all around.

As soon as the car stopped, the Secret Service agent said, "Lee has been shot."

And I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

They brought Marina into the house.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him how he knew that?

Mrs. OSWALD. It came over--I thought he had the radio in the car, Secret Serviceman, and he had talked to someone. This was all set up, sir, and I can prove to you. They didn't want us to know. They are now telling us this, Marina and I.

He talked, and then he turned around and said, "Lee has been shot."

I said, "How badly?"

He said, "In the shoulder."

I cried, and said, "Marina, Lee has been shot."

So Marina went into the chief of police's at Irving home, to call Mrs. Paine, to get the diapers and things ready. They decided and told us, with me in the car and Marina, that it would not be a good thing for us to go to Mrs. Paine's home and get these things, that Marina should go in the chief of police's home and call and tell Mrs. Paine what she wanted.

And one or two of the agents would go and get the things for Marina.

So I am sitting in the car with the agent. Marina is in the home now--remember.

So something comes over the mike, and the Secret Service agent says, "Do not repeat. Do not repeat."

I said, "My son is gone isn't he?"

And he didn't answer.

I said, "Answer me. I want to know. If my son is gone, I want to meditate."

He said, "Yes, Mrs. Oswald, your son has just expired."

Mr. RANKIN. Now, which agent told you this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.--Mr. Mike Howard, who was the agent that rode in the car with President Johnson, who was the agent that was at Six Flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to protect Baine Johnson at the dormitory. He is also the same agent that was sent to protect me in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? Was there another Secret Service agent with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He went into the home--he escorted Marina into the chief of police's home, and I do not know his name. And he is not the other agent that I want to know the name of.

Wait just a minute.

I don't know this man's name. But he is not the other agent that is involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about what time on that Sunday did you learn of your son's death?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, here is your time element. I said Robert and Mr. Gregory and the Secret Service were there approximately from 11:30. And I knew nothing about the shooting. And then we had to go to Irving and everything. Then they told us Lee was shot. So now we are bringing up to the time--it all fits in--which was 1 o'clock or 1:30.

As a matter of fact, then when I got the news, I went into the home, and I said, "Marina, our boy is gone."

We both cried. And they were all watching the sequence on television. The television was turned to the back, where Marina and I could not see it. They sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. And the back of the television was to us. And the men and all, a lot of men were looking at the television. It probably just happened, because the man said, "Do not repeat." And I insisted.

They gave us coffee.

And then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know.

We were to go to his house. There was a story about that from this chief of police of Irving.

Mr. RANKIN. What paper is that?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Star Telegram paper.

All of my papers were taken out of my home by Secret Service men. While at Six Flags, they saved the papers for me. We would not let the maids take the papers. And I brought all of those papers from the Six Flags, from the very beginning, to my home in Fort Worth, Tex. And every piece of paper out of my home was taken. So I did not--believe me, gentlemen, this seems strange, but it was 2 weeks later before I saw the picture of the way my son was shot.

Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram gave me the back issues of papers. And it wasn't until then that I actually knew the tragedy, how my son was shot. Because they took all the papers, all my clippings and everything. I was left stranded, without any papers. And until Mr. Blair Justice brought me these back issues, some 2 weeks later, was the first time that I saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion between you and Marina about this?

Mrs. OSWALD. About the shooting?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. We didn't know. I was with Marina at the Executive Inn from the 22d until the shooting, the 24th--as I told you.

Then we left. And from the 24th to the 28th, at the Inn of the Six Flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. We did not know. We knew Lee was shot and dead. But we didn't know how. We didn't get to read a paper or watch television. We just had snatches of the television.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, when you both learned that he was shot on that Sunday afternoon, did you and Marina say anything to each other?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. That is another story.

Immediately I said, "I want to see Lee." And Marina said, "I want see Lee, too."

And the chief of police and Mr. Gregory said, "Well, it would be better to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up."

I said, "No, I want to see Lee now."

Marina said, "Me, too, me want to see Lee."

They led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. But Marina has always spoken like that. I have acted as an interpreter for her, as I stated before, for an FBI agent. And she understood me. And he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter.

So she said, "I want to see Lee, too."

They didn't want us to see Lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. But I insisted, and so did Marina. So they could not do anything about it with the two women. So they decided to pacify us.

We got in the car. On the way in the car they are trying to get us to change our minds. And he said, Mr. Mike Howard--he was driving the car--"Mrs. Oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you would wait until later on to see Lee because this is a big thing."

I said, "For security reasons I want you to know that I am an American citizen, and even though I am poor I have as much right as any other human being, and Mrs. Kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her husband. And I insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take me to the hospital to see my son."

Gentlemen, I require the same privilege.

So Mr. Mike Howard said, "All right, we will take you to the hospital.

"I want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect you. Our security measures end right there. The police will then have you under protection. We cannot protect you."

I said, "That is fine. If I am to die, I will die that way. But I am going to see my son."

Mr. Gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, I will always remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, I have just lost a son.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, you are being so selfish. You are endangering this girl's life, and the life of these two children."

I want to elaborate on this. He is not thinking about me. He is thinking about the Russian girl. I am going to bring this over and over--that these Russian people are always considering this Russian girl. He snapped at me.

I said, "Mr. Gregory, I am not talking for my daughter-in-law. She can do what she wants. I am saying I want to see my son."

And so they brought us to the hospital. And Marina said, "I too want to see Lee."

After Mr. Gregory said that--"I, too, want to see Lee."

So then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the Secret Service men, and then the police took over. We were escorted by the police in the hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would not think it would be more than between 2 and 3 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Sunday, November 24th.

Mr. RANKIN. And then what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Then Mr. Perry, the doctor, came down. We were escorted into a room. And he came in. He said, "Now, you know the Texas law is that we have to have an autopsy on a body."

I said, "Yes, I understand."

And Marina understood.

Marina is a registered pharmacist.

So Marina understands these things. And Marina understood.

And he said, "Now, I will do whatever you ladies wish. I understand that you wish to see the body. However, I will say this. It will not be pleasant. All the blood has drained from him, and it would be much better if you would see him after he was fixed up."

I said, "I am a nurse. I have seen death before. I want to see my son now."

Marina--as I am trying to say, she understands English--she said, "I want to see Lee, too." So she knew what the doctor was saying.

We were escorted upstairs into a room. They said it was a morgue, but it wasn't. Lee's body was on a hospital bed, I would say, or a table--a table like you take into an operating room. And there were a lot of policemen standing around, guarding the body. And, of course, his face was showing. And Marina went first. She opened his eyelids. Now, to me--I am a nurse, and I don't think I could have done that. This is a very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. And she says, "He cry. He eye wet." To the doctor. And the doctor said, "Yes."

Well, I know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. So I didn't even touch Lee. I just wanted to see that it was my son.

So on the way, leaving the body in the room--I am in the room----

Mr. RANKIN. You were satisfied it was your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is why I wanted to see the body. I wanted to make sure it was my son.

So while leaving the room, I said to the police--"I think some day you will hang your heads in shame."

I said, "I happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the unsung hero of this episode. And I, as his mother, intend to provide this if I can."

And, with that, I left the room.

Then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the chaplain. I have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's name, because I wanted to have all this information for you. But you have to realize I just knew Thursday. And I have three times as many papers as I have here. So it has been a chore for me to do all of this. But that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at Parkland Hospital. So I asked to speak to the chaplain in private. So I spoke to the chaplain in private, and I told him that I thought my son was an agent, and that I wanted him to talk to Robert. Robert does not listen to me, never has, and I have had very, very little conversation with Robert, ever since Robert has joined the Marines, because of the way our life has intervened.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but this is what I told the chaplain. No--I am always thinking of my country, the security of my country before I would say anything like that.

And I told you why I told the FBI men, because of the money involved, and I didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a Marxist.

So I didn't tell him. But I did say I wanted him to talk to Robert, because we financially were in very poor straits. And then I wanted my son buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Now, gentlemen, I didn't know that President Kennedy was going to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. All I know is that my son is an agent, and that he deserves to be buried in Arlington Cemetery. So I talked to the chaplain about this. I went into quite detail about this. I asked him if he would talk to Robert, because when I talked to Robert about it, as soon as I started to say something he would say, "Oh, Mother, forget it."

So I asked the chaplain to talk to Robert about Lee being buried in the Arlington Cemetery.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But he did call Robert in. We were getting ready. The police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he said, "If you don't mind, I would like to talk to Robert Oswald just a minute."

So he brought Robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there a little while with Robert. So I feel sure that the chaplain relayed my message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked the police if he could talk to Robert.

Mr. RANKIN. The chaplain never told you anything more about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not seen the chaplain since.

Mr. RANKIN. Did Robert say anything about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.

Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.

Mr. RANKIN. But you are?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.

But Lee was more left handed than I am.

I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

Now, there is another story. And we have stories galore, believe me--with documents and everything.

A gun will be involved in this story, that Lee had bought. But I don't want to confuse the committee. That is another part that we will have to go into, that I will have to lead up to. The only way I can do this and not forget things is to do the way I am doing it. And if you have any questions, if you feel the story I have told so far--I would like to know, myself, if I have forgotten anything.

It is awfully hard for me to remember everything. If you want to question me, I am more than happy, if I know the facts, to give them to you.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I have some fresh water, please?

Mr. RANKIN. You have never told us about the Walker matter. Did you know something about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't know about that.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to let her finish this other, are you not?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. But I have a story on that.

Mr. RANKIN. You want to finish this incident about the gun you are talking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. About Robert knowing about the gun--I have already said that.

About Lee being left handed, and he and Robert going squirrel hunting.

Mr. RANKIN. You said there was another gun matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a long, long story.

The CHAIRMAN. I think she has gotten to the point----

Mrs. OSWALD. I got to the point. I finished this story, really, don't you think--about the gun?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think about Robert knowing Lee was left handed.

The CHAIRMAN. Has anything happened since that, that you care to call to our attention, things that you know about?

Mrs. OSWALD. On the particular story that I have said this morning--you mean of Lee?

This is where it gets confusing.

Representative FORD. Where did you go after the Parkland Hospital? What happened then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes. This is interesting.

After the Parkland Hospital, then this Mike Howard said, "Well, what we will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them."

And they took us to the Inn of the Six Flags, which is on the outskirts of Arlington, Tex. They took us there.

And I am assuming that it is a Secret Service hideout or something, because they had made no arrangements or anything. We just were welcomed right in the Inn. They knew where to go.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin, that is so important--if we are going to recess, I am going to ask not to start that story, because that is a very long, important story to this Commission.

Mr. DULLES. How far is that from Dallas--the Six Flags Inn?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is in between Dallas and Fort Worth, Tex. It is near Arlington, Tex.

The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may continue with your statement.

Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had forgotten one very important factor in the story.

I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that Lee had a gun.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22, when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it.

Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr. Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left, that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement.

Was there something else I told you?

Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me, ma'am.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know whether that was the gun or not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as I said before--that was it.

Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving. And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. Correct.

Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags.

I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.

I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. All the papers were at home.

I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were getting the original papers, because I know that each department in the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape.

I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though.

Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there were two other men.

Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date of the funeral--I remember now.

Mr. RANKIN. November 25th?

Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw Robert crying.

Wait, I am ahead of my story.

You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother, where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to come to.

So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington. So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his mother has known all of these years.

So I started.

Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my thoughts have left me, because my son is crying."

I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could not get a minister at my son's grave.

They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard----

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape.

Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."

That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. And that is the only time.

It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. They did not want to hear anything from me.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?

Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."

If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And that is the point that has bothered me.

Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have 20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying?

Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's funeral.

What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1 hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see, Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery.

They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made clear--because that is the part I cannot understand.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the right to say what shall be done?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now in a concrete vault?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the ministers.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald, today."

You see, I am expected to work on Sunday.

So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I am sorry.

Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called upon another minister, because there would have been many, many ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and help the sorrowing family.

Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on the sofa.

Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not.

So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be concerned about".

And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man right here----

Mr. RANKIN. You are pointing to----

Mrs. OSWALD. This agent right here. You may pass the picture around.

Mr. RANKIN. The figure on the left hand of the picture you have just produced?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do not know his name. The man had the decency to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the minister and myself and Robert were sitting on the sofa. And when I said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who I will have a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, be quiet. You are making matters worse."

Now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold me.

This Mr. French, Reverend French, agreed that we would have chapel services, that he could not take the body into the church. And we compromised for chapel services.

However, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. There is the body being brought into the chapel. There is another picture. Here is another picture of the chapel.

Mr. RANKIN. Before we go on----

Mrs. OSWALD. And the chapel was empty. My son's body had been brought into the chapel, but Reverend French did not show up. And because there was a time for the funeral, the Star Telegram reporters and the police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the chapel and put it at the grave site. And when we went to the cemetery, we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel services. And the chapel was empty. My son's body was not in it. Robert cried bitterly.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can I interrupt a minute?

We will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just referred to, where the FBI agent is in the lefthand corner.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 165 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. The photograph I have just referred to is Exhibit 165, is it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 165.

Mr. RANKIN. And the FBI agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand corner of that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. That's right. And this is the other FBI agent, Mr. Mike Howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. He is the one that was taking care of Baine Johnson. He is the one that they have now sent to protect me in Fort Worth. He was the lead man at Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. And he stands right behind you there in that picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is Mr. Mike Howard.

Mr. RANKIN. Isn't he a Secret Service man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Secret Service man--they are both Secret Service.

Representative FORD. That was the point I wanted to make, because she had said he was an FBI agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--please interrupt. It is awful hard for me to remember and say things. So I appreciate you doing that. It is a long story. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I have many stories that I am sure you do not have.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I'll ask the reporter to mark the other picture with the chapel and the casket as Exhibit 166.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 166 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us if Exhibit 166 is a photograph showing the removing of the casket?

Mrs. OSWALD. The way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the chapel. That is the way I would assume. They are leaving the chapel. But the body was not at the chapel. What an awful thing we went through, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 165 and 166, and ask to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 165 and 166 were received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark the picture of the chapel with the casket apparently going in as Exhibit 167.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 167 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. And the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed on a carrier in front of it, as Exhibit 168.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 168 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall that Exhibit 167 is the picture of them taking the casket into the chapel?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And Exhibit 168 is apparently a picture in front of the chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 167 and 168 and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The photographs previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 167 and 168 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I don't remember if I stated while at Six Flags that this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, while the television was on continuously--I have stated before I never did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. And this was published in the Star Telegram by Mr. Blair Justice, and also on the radio.

He was very, very rude to me. Anything that I said, he snapped. And I took it for quite a while. At this particular time that they showed the gun on television, I said, "How can they say Lee shot the President? Even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used it--nobody saw him use it."

He snapped back and he said, "Mrs. Oswald, we know that he shot the President."

I then walked over to Mr. Mike Howard and I said, "What's wrong with that agent? That agent is about to crack. All he has done is taunt me ever since I have been here."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, he was personal body guard to Mrs. Kennedy for 30 months and maybe he has a little opinion against you."

I said, "Let him keep his personal opinions to himself. He is on a job."

Now, there was another instance with this same agent. He followed Marina around continuously. I'm going to make this plain. He followed Marina around continuously. The pictures will always show him by Marina.

We were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. And we were getting ready for the funeral.

Marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses. "Mama, too long." "Mama, no fit." And it looked lovely on her. You can see I know how to dress properly. I am in the business world as merchandise manager. And the dress looked lovely on Marina. But she was not happy with it.

I said, "Oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to Lee's funeral. It will be all right."

And we had 1 hour in order to get ready for the funeral.

I said, "We will never make it. Marina is so slow."

She said, "I no slow. I have things to do."

I am trying to impress upon you that Marina understands English, and has always talked broken English.

Now, this agent was in the room and Robert was on the telephone. That is why he was allowed in the bedroom.

While Marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, 2 years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good children--was standing by her mother. And Marina was very nervous by this time. She was not happy with the dress. And Marina was combing her hair. She took the comb and she hit June on the head. I said, "Marina, don't do that." And this agent--I wish I knew his name--snapped at me and said, "Mrs. Oswald, you let her alone." I said, "Don't tell me what to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the head with a comb" in front of Robert Oswald.

Now, why did this man do these things?

Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far as Marina was concerned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, what do you mean when you say improper?

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as you know?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as I can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot.

The CHAIRMAN. With who?

Mrs. OSWALD. With Marina and Mrs. Paine--the two women. Lee was set up, and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved.

Mr. RANKIN. Which ones are you referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. I am not a detective, and I don't say it is the answer to it. But I must tell you what I think, because I am the only one that has this information.

Now, here is another instance----

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men are engaged in?

Mrs. OSWALD. The assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that two Secret Service agents and Marina and Mrs. Paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. Besides another high official. I will tell you the high official I have in mind when we go through that part of the story, if you please.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because that is a very serious charge.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is a very serious charge, and I realize that. I base that on what I told you, the attitude of this man, and Mike Howard's attitude also.

Now, I have to continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you described that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have to continue.

While at Six Flags, Marina was given the red carpet treatment. Marina was Marina. And it was not that Marina is pretty and a young girl. Marina was under--what is the word--I won't say influence--these two men were to see that Marina was Marina. I don't know how to say it. Are you getting the point? Let me see if I can say it better.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing more than that?

Mrs. OSWALD. More than taking care of Marina.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, describe what more.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right, I will describe it for you.

I am not quite satisfied with the way I said that. Let me get my thoughts together.

I noticed that--and of course as I have testified, the way the man treated me--and I was told he was a body guard for Mrs. Kennedy. We were at Six Flags on November 24th, at Lee's death, and on November 26th Marina and I--before November 26th--Marina and I were very, very friendly, very loving, everything was "Mama"--"Mama has a big heart." And we planned to live together.

I had an insurance policy that had expired on Lee. I was not able to keep up the premium. And I had $863. But however I had not looked at the policy for some years, and I was not quite sure that it was in force. But otherwise I had no money and no job. I had given up my job to come to the rescue. So I was very anxious to get home and get my papers and let them see the copies of everything I had, and to find out if I had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some clothes.

From the 24th until the 26th I lived in my uniform, gentlemen. I did not have any clothes at the Six Flags. Yet Robert Oswald was taken to his home a couple of times to get clothes. And when I wanted to go home and get clothes, they put me off. One time I broke down crying. I said, "I don't understand it. You won't do anything for me, yet you drove Robert all the way to Denton to get clothes."

So the night of the 26th they took me home, and I got my papers. I found that my insurance policy was in force. So I said to Marina, "Marina, we all right. Mama has insurance policy, $800. You stay home with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and at least we have a start."

"Okay, Mama. I not want big house, Mama. I want small place."

And this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted small things. Fine.

On the date of the 22d, approximately 10 o'clock--this was in the morning--I want to say something to Marina, and Marina shrugged me off and walked away.

Mr. DULLES. What date was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. The 27th. That morning I had acted as interpreter for an FBI agent, and Mr. Mike Howard said, "Would you like us to get a Russian interpreter?" And he said, "No, Mrs. Oswald is doing fine." And he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. So, you see my daughter-in-law did understand English and answered me in her Russian broken English, because the FBI man was satisfied.

So when Marina shrugged me off, I thought right away that she thought--because I had to use the name Lee so many times--that I was hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. So I thought maybe I am just imagining things. So I waited quite a while, I would say half an hour. I went to Marina again. And she walked away and shrugged me off.

So I walked into the living room, where my son, Robert Oswald, and the Secret Service were and I said to Robert, "Robert, something is wrong with Marina. She won't have anything to do with me."

He said, "I know why. Marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to tell you."

I said, "Well, Robert, why didn't you tell me?"

Of course when I said it. I was emotionally upset. I said, "Robert, why didn't you tell me?"

He said, "Because just the way you are acting now."

I said, "What do you mean the way I am acting now? I am acting in a normal fashion. You are telling me that you are taking my daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and I have lost my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction."

"Well, that is why we didn't tell you. We knew you would take it that way."

And that is the last time I have talked to my daughter-in-law, Marina. And that is the rift between Marina and I. There is no rift, sir? We were going to live together. But this home was offered Marina--and I will present this in evidence.

Now, Mr. Gregory is involved--Mr. Gregory did all the Russian talking. They all knew better but me. And I have more to the story.

Yes, here it is.

And there are other offers Marina had--other offers.

So I was not able to be around Marina. The Secret Service saw to it. And they gloated.

Gentlemen, I am not imagining these things. These two men gloated of the fact that now Marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed financially and otherwise.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this Mrs. Pultz?

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't even read this, sir, believe me. This was handed to me by a reporter before I left, saying, "Mrs. Oswald, maybe these things"--because he knows the story. This has all been published publicly in newspapers, what I am saying. The Star Telegram could give you all I am saying here. It has already been made public in the paper, all of this. And he handed that to me. I never did see that article until the other day.

Mr. RANKIN. This article refers to Mrs. Oswald being offered a home, and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer, according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a Mrs. Pultz. That is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is offering her a home.

Now, I have not read that. I know she was offered a home by a woman and I will tell you further what I do know about this.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to identify this as the next exhibit.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, the reporter has marked that Exhibit 169, the newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. I now offer in evidence Exhibit 169 and ask please to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 169 for identification was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date?

Mrs. OSWALD. I left there on the 28th, so it would have to be the 27th. It would have to be the 27th.

Mr. RANKIN. Now----

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, there were other people that offered her homes.

Mr. RANKIN. But you seemed to think there was something improper or bad about your son Robert wanting to get your daughter Marina taken care of in this manner. I don't understand that. Can you explain it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Well--no--as I have explained before, Robert and I are not close, we are not close as a family. But Robert is a very easy-going person. He is not opinionated, particularly like I am. My older son and Lee are my disposition. But because you are a Secret Service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along and yes you. So he was part of this arrangement. They probably had to have his consent. But he knew of the arrangement with Mr. Gregory and Marina. They all knew it but me. I was not consulted about this at all.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think Robert was trying to do something bad by it, or just trying to look out for----

Mrs. OSWALD. He thought it was a good idea, that Marina should go and live in this home. But I took a different attitude. I am not interested in material things, gentlemen. I then went into my speech, that I thought, as a family, Marina and I should stick together and face our future together. I could see no reason--and I made this at the Six Flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, I could see no reason, no advantage of Marina living with strangers. I said that before. I thought it would be better, original idea, Marina and I had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. And I even said--we have $863 to start with, and then if we don't make it "What about you helping us?"

"But give us a chance as a family. Don't put the girl in a strange home, a Russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her Mama."

Marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. But I was her Mama up until this time. And I could not see Marina in a strange home.

Well, I am going to prove this story to you. It is a fantastic story. But as I go along--I have witnesses--and that is why I asked you, sir, I would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories I am telling you. It can be proven, sir.

So I had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came out and said what they had planned. I had no inkling of it. That was the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me.

That night, the night of November 27th--now, we were in a bedroom with twin beds that we shared. They opened the studio couch in the living room, and rolled June's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "they"?

Mrs. OSWALD. The Secret Service had the maid come in with sheets and everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. The Secret Service rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. And I knew that I was not wanted or involved. And I have a very dignified way about me. I didn't say a word. What I did--I sat up in a chair all night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. I sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like I was being pushed aside.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, what Secret Servicemen were these--Mr. Howard?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Howard was involved, and this other man.

Mr. RANKIN. The same man?

Mrs. OSWALD. This same man. And my son is in this, too. Robert was part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, and they didn't tell me--and Mr. Peter Gregory.

Mr. RANKIN. And did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living room?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. And they moved June's baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. And I sat in a chair. I can do that. I am a nurse, and I can do without sleep. And I had all the papers. I told you that the night before they took me home to get my papers. And that is why I knew I had the insurance money. So I started to work on the papers. And I sat up all night long.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Marina say about that arrangement?

Mrs. OSWALD. There was nothing said between Marina and I. The last time I had seen Marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out why she shrugged me off. I have had no contact with Marina since.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? Can you explain that to us?

Mrs. OSWALD. About this particular instance?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't say that is a particular instance. But it is certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to consult me. Marina and I were friends. She was going to come and live with me. I was going to share my money with her. And then they went ahead and planned all this without my knowledge.

Maybe you know the answer to it, I don't know. But there was no hard feelings--even now I love Marina and I would take and help her any way I can.

So I don't understand these things. But I am telling you the way things happen, the way I was excluded. And your Secret Service agents had part of this.

Mr. RANKIN. And you do not think Robert and the Secret Service agents could be acting in good faith to try to just help Marina and her children along?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I cannot see from my point of view that it would be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a home. We are talking about a perfect stranger. If she is a perfect stranger--maybe she wasn't. I have no way of knowing. But I am going to assume what I read. It would be much better for this girl to go live in this stranger's home than to be with her family? This girl and my grandchildren needed a family, which I was that family. I cannot see that.

Mr. RANKIN. What I am asking you is: Do you think it is possible that Robert was just mistaken when he and the Secret Service man, if they are involved, thought this might be a good plan. Isn't it possible they were trying to do the right thing?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I think it was deliberate. I am sure--I don't think. I am positive it was deliberate. And I will tell you why as we go along.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you said you thought it was deliberate.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live with another lady--this Mrs. Pultz--you said you did not think it could be innocent or in good faith?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because then this same Secret Service man, that I don't know the name--now, I may be wrong about this--just a moment. No--this is not the same man.

One of the other Secret Service men had gone to talk to Robert's boss, because Robert was worried about his job. So this happened in the afternoon. I had no contact with Marina. And he came in and in front of me he patted Robert on the shoulder and said, "Now, Robert, I have talked to your boss and you are all right. I assured him you are not involved in any way."

So, gentlemen, Marina is taken care of; Robert is taken care of--I am not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because I can take care of myself. But here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered what is going to become of me.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, did you think it was improper that the Secret Service man would go to Robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that there was nothing improper?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I think it was a fine gesture. And that is the point I am trying to make out. Why are these fine gestures to see that Marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and Robert's job is secure--but I am nothing. I was not included in the plans. And what is going to become of me? I have no income. I have no job. I lost my job. And nobody thought about me.

I don't mean to imply I'm sorry for myself. I am trying to bring out a point that through all of this, that I have not been considered, even as much as to testify. I want to know why. I don't understand why.

It is very strange.

I packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as I said.

So the next morning I am on my way home. I have no purpose to be there. I was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. But now I am out of everything, so I insist on going home.

Before going home, I asked to tell Marina goodby, and my grandchildren, and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the Inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door.

Mr. RANKIN. What day is this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the 28th. So the agent that was taking me home--I'm sorry, but I'm very bad at names, and there were so many agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. I told him that I wanted to tell Marina that I was going. He knocked on the door. The Russian interpreter from the State Department, Mr. Gopadze, came to the door, and the agent said, "Mrs. Oswald is going home and wants to tell Marina and the children goodby."

He said, "Well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. She will get in touch with you."

So I never saw Marina after that time.

Now, what worried me so was what did Marina think. What did Marina know of this, and what did she think? Did she think I deserted her? Did they think I left without telling her goodby? This worried me very much. I could picture the girl. What did she think? I didn't even get to tell her goodby.

So I tried in vain to see Marina. I have called Mr. F. V. Sorrels over and over and over, and he has never told me that Marina did not want to see me. And this, gentlemen, I have proof of. He always said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular push-around. He is not telling me plainly I am not going to see Marina, he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see Marina--if I am making this plain. And I have publicly blasted that. Over and over I have tried unsuccessfully.

Mr. Mark Lane, who is representing my son, talked with Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne--Jim Martin is Marina's business manager, and Mr. Thorne is her attorney. And Mr. Jim Martin and Thorne have stated to Mr. Mark Lane that Marina did not want to talk to me.

Now, this is approximately a month ago, I would say, when I first engaged Mr. Mark Lane. And Mr. Mark Lane said to me that he was not satisfied, when he gave me the information. I said, "No, I want Marina to tell me that." How did I know it was Marina's quote?

Mr. Sorrels never told me that Marina did not want to talk to me. But this was told to Mr. Mark Lane. But I would not take that as a quote. I wanted to hear it from Marina.

So we persistently tried to see Marina. When I say we, almost every reporter in the city of Fort Worth and Dallas has tried to see Marina. Mr. Mark Lane has tried to see Marina. Mr. Olds, who is head of the Civil Liberties Association--I don't know if that's the proper name--in Fort Worth has tried to see Marina. And there have been many prominent people trying to see Marina, because they could not understand how Marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be allowed to see Marina. There have been many, many people question this. It has been questioned, why Marina would be under strict seclusion for 6 weeks, with not a soul seeing Marina. I say not a soul. My son saw Marina at Christmas time, and probably had seen her before then.

His family went with him--I checked with my daughter-in-law, Vada, and she said she went with Robert for Christmas time. It came over the news in Fort Worth that Marina's brother-in-law, Lee's brother, would be with her at Christmas time, and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was unavailable for news.

Gentlemen, I stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the Secret Service would come and let me be with my family for Christmas time, waiting there patiently. I was available for news. I had blasted this in the paper over and over. I waited for them to come get me. But there again, I am excluded.

Do you know the answers to all these exclusions? I do not.

The first time Marina ever made any statement or public appearance was approximately 2 weeks ago, or maybe not that long. She was on an exclusive television program. Channel 4 in Fort Worth, Tex., when she stated publicly that in her mind she thought that Lee shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing for this 22-year-old foreign girl to think. She thinks in her mind. She doesn't know. But she thinks, gentlemen. That tape can be sent back to you. That was her quote. I watched every television program, and I took it down in black and white. "In my mind, I think Lee shot President Kennedy."

She doesn't know our American way of life. Lee Harvey Oswald will be the accused assassin of President Kennedy when this information is over with, believe me.

She is a Russian girl, and maybe they do this in Russia. But what I am going to say is that Marina Oswald was brainwashed by the Secret Service, who have kept her in seclusion for 8 weeks--8 weeks, gentlemen, with no one talking to Marina.

Marina does not read English. Marina knows none of the facts from newspaper account. The only way Marina can get facts is through what the FBI and the Secret Service probably are telling her, or some of the facts that Marina has manufactured since.

I am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your claim on, that Marina was brainwashed?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because for 8 weeks no one has been allowed to see Marina. I do not believe in my mind that that is an American way of life. I question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in strict seclusion with no one seeing her for 8 weeks, gentlemen.

Now, there may be a reason for that. I don't know. But the American people want some answer to that. I have over 1,500 letters questioning that. The papers have blasted it continuously.

Mr. RANKIN. If she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy she could not even take care of the children?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. Rankin, I am not saying, even implying that the Secret Service should not protect my daughter-in-law. I am grateful for that, and I have expressed it. I am most grateful she has protection. But would there have been any harm for me to talk to Marina with the Secret Service around and let Marina tell me that she does not want to see me?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, let's leave you out of it. What about all the rest of the people that would want--or did want to see Marina?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. And take her time, while she had to take care of the children.

Mrs. OSWALD. I agree with that. Marina should not see every Tom, Dick, and Harry. I think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. But when Mr. Mark Lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can solve this, to just let Marina tell him that she doesn't want to see her mama, and Mr. Olds, who is head of Civil Liberties, was refused permission to see her, then we question it.

No, I don't think all the people should see Marina. But people are asking these questions, Mr. Rankin. They want to know why a high official cannot see Marina, to satisfy the public's demand.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, Marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. Mr. Thorne was her attorney.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, we will get to Mr. Thorne.

When I first contacted Mr. Thorne I said, "Mr. Thorne, how is my daughter-in-law and grandchildren?"

And Mr. Thorne really apologized to me. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, they are fine. But I am unable to divulge their whereabouts."

He volunteered the information to me.

And I said, "Well, sir; I am not asking where they are"--because I had already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time I had contacted him, we had been fighting this thing to see Marina. But he volunteered the information. He said, "Your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are fine, but I am not able to divulge their whereabouts."

I said, "I am not asking about their whereabouts." I said that I had Lee's Marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a Marine, that Lee had sent to me, and Lee's baby book; that I had had in my possession ever since he was a baby, that I gave to Marina and Lee when they returned to Russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch I had all those years I gave to Lee. So I asked Mr. Thorne about these things and he said he would inquire about it.

I said, "Mr. Thorne, while I am on the 'phone I do want to bring something up. While I was at Six Flags, the day I left, the morning I left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and money. And these envelopes were addressed to Mrs. Marina Oswald and Marguerite Oswald, or Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina, to both."

The Secret Service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks and cash. Because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, I said, "Now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' I definitely want my share."

Believe me, gentlemen, I have never received 1 penny.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. They said yes--and my son was there when I said that--they said they would divide it. If it was a $10 bill and it said the mother of Lee and the wife, that I would get 5 and Marina would get 5. So when I talked to Mr. Thorne I said, "I want to tell you, Mr. Thorne, while I was at Six Flags, I know of moneys coming in, but I have never received a penny. But I want you to know that the Secret Service in my home, because they were in my home from the 28th until the 3d"--I believe it was----

Representative FORD. Third of what?

Mrs. OSWALD. This would be December. Because this was the 28th of November--approximately the 3d. The money that came into my home that way, 'Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald' the Secret Service divided right then and there. If it was a $10 bill, I got 5 and they took 5 to give to Marina. Whether Marina ever got the money or not, I have no way of knowing. But the money in my home was divided and the share given to Marina. But I never did get the share from the Secret Service at this time.

So 2 weeks later----

Mr. RANKIN. How much did that amount to, that was divided in your home?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very little. My contributions up to now are just a little over $900--about $905. That is the money that has been given direct to me, the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

So about 3 weeks later--now, Mr. Lane comes in here. He has all of these documents and all of these dates and everything. I don't know about the dates.

Mr. Thorne--from Mr. Thome's office and Mr. Martin I receive an envelope about this size with mail for me, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--not "and Marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks, made out to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, that nobody else of course could have any benefit from. This late date. And there were checks way in November, in the beginning of December, that were held all this time. But until I complained, then they decided to send them to me.

Mr. Lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has been opened by the Fort Worth Police. I had a tip from a reporter that my mail at the mayor's office and the Fort Worth Police and the chief of police was being photostatic copied. So I sent a telegram--and I have these things--you will have everything I have--to each one, the same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at 2220 Thomas Place. I received no mail.

Three days later--I received no mail.

So I called Mr. Sorrels and told Mr. Sorrels about the tip that I had. And I knew it was a positive tip--I could feel sure this young man was giving me the right information. I had much information that the public knows, that they have helped me in this case, Mr. Rankin. So Mr. Sorrels sent Mr. Seals, I think his name was, a Secret Service man down and the chief of police gave Mr. Seals--we have this--my mail opened and photostatic copies. I can produce this evidence.

Now, what right--I am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all through this that I am fighting for.

If the mail went to the chief of police, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, in care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal right to open such mail. But they do not have the moral right, because I was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. And the chief of police and everybody else knew my address. And that mail should have remained unopened. How much cash was taken out of those mails? I do not know. And I am not really saying there was. But there is quite a possibility that it was.

Then I received another package from Mr. Thorne, and my mail was opened. I called Mr. Sorrels about that. He said he knew nothing about it.

First I called Mr. Thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. So then I called Mr. Sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. I said, "Mr. Sorrels, I'm getting awfully tired of this. Mr. Thorne doesn't know how my mail is being opened. He says that he got the mail from the Secret Service. And now you are telling me that you do not give the mail to Mr. Thorne. Where does my mail come from opened?" So nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me.

My rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. Every newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. Three letters from Lee, from Russia. I offered all my information, as I explained over and over, to the Secret Service. And while in my home, I was showing them things--because I was proud of the things I have, and I think, gentlemen, when you see everything I have you will see a different picture of this boy.

There were three letters taken from my letters from Lee. And how I came to know that--a New York reporter had offered--he was going to write a story and had offered to buy three of my letters. I told him he could have his choice. And so he looked through the letters, and I looked through them with him, and I missed these three letters. These three letters would have been of importance to the Secret Service and to our government.

But you must remember, I have offered over and over to give any information I have.

One letter stated that Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army--I may produce this now. Is that what we need to do next--the letters?

Representative BOGGS. Was a colonel in what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Representative BOGGS. One letter said he was a colonel in what?

Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina's uncle was a colonel in the Russian Army.

Would you like to look at these letters while I continue, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DULLES. Are these the lost letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, these are letters from Lee to me from Russia.

Mr. DULLES. I thought you said three were lost.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, three were lost. The one about the Russian colonel was lost--that the Secret Service men took--three letters--that would be of importance for them. But I offered to give it to them. But they were taken from my home.

Representative BOGGS. How did you get them back?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am going to tell the story, and I have witnesses.

So when I missed them, Mr. Jack Langueth, who we can call as a witness, who is a reporter for the New York Times, wanted to pay me for letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that he bought from me, three different letters I am talking about now, and printed how many letters I had, including the three letters that the FBI man that Marina's uncle was a colonel. He printed the things in the paper.

So approximately 5 or 6 days later the Secret Service man--and I can find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters.

Mr. RANKIN. How much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters and other things?

Mrs. OSWALD. I got $50 for each letter. And I have the receipt.

Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand yet. You offered to sell the letters to him, or let him have use of them for $50 apiece?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. $150.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he published them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Yes--he published the letters. It was published in the New York Times, the three letters.

Mr. RANKIN. Then they were returned to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never did take the letters. Mr. Langueth never did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. As I told you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were copied, and I kept the originals. He paid me $50. That was printed in the story. But the three letters that the Secret Service men had, he printed in the story about Marina's uncle being a colonel in the Russian Army. And that is the letter that the Secret Service man had.

Mr. RANKIN. And you did not get paid for those at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--these are different letters. So they returned those letters to me, the Secret Service, and I gave them a receipt for them. But they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a receipt when they took them. So I am trying to point out the fact that I got the three letters back, I would think, because the story in the paper said that the Secret Service had these three letters and parts of what they contained. So the three letters were returned to me, and I had to sign a receipt for those three letters.

Am I making that clear now?

May I have some water, please?

Representative FORD. Are we going to get these letters in the record?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Let me get the letters in the record, then.

Mr. DOYLE. Let me go off the record a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not able to go into the defection now, because I am not through with this part. The defection starts an entirely different story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a while.

What sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about Marina's uncle. The other two I am not quite sure.

Representative BOGGS. What does it say about her uncle?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have to find the letter, sir.

I want to say this, gentleman. And maybe you are not in agreement with me. But all my life I have known and I have thought that a title does not make a man. It may be presumptuous of me that I am accusing the Secret Service--because they are the Secret Service. But there are men in our Government, and the Secret Service, who are undesirable, just like in any other organization--let's face it. We have such men as Bobby Baker, who was a citizen well thought of. Charles Van Doren who was well thought of. Mr. Fred Korth who was under investigation, he was a wonderful citizen. I can go on and on. Yet these men turned out not to be the right type.

I say this because my son was a self-styled Marxist, and a known defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the Dallas Police. And my son--had he been a Senator or someone in the higher field, maybe they would not have picked him up so fast. Now, that is a fact of our way of life, of human nature. Having a title doesn't mean that you are the man back of the title.

Mr. RANKIN. Could we take those letters now and have the reporter identify them? Here is the one about the uncle in the Army?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is one I am sure of.

Now, I did not finish the story of the woman offering Marina a home. I have not finished that story, really. This affidavit that I showed you about the woman offering Marina the home the morning of the 28th--I picked up the newspaper and I read in the newspaper--I will be through with this story in 1 minute. I picked up the newspaper on the 28th of November and I read in the newspaper where this woman had offered Marina a home. So I said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody was sleeping, and as I told you I sat up all night----

Mr. RANKIN. This was 1963, after the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1963. November 28. It was on the 27th that I knew my daughter was offered a home. Nothing was said where. In fact, at the time I thought she was going to live in Mr. Gregory's home. I just thought that. I did not ask. I was so hurt, I did not ask.

But on the morning of the 28th I picked up the paper and read this story about the woman going to the Dallas Police offering Marina a home. So I said to this agent, "Evidently that is who Marina is going to live with." But I did not know. But on the 28th is when I saw the story of the woman offering Marina the home.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he was in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, for you to do that. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And I believe maybe I could--I would not want to state a fact that these two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two letters as the proper letters.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you could look them over and see----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right.

Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is all right with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. Liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by putting those stickers on we can help you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by the dates.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced.

(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from the Soviet Union. And I think it would be better for our record if I briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can be compared with the number.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 180 bears the date of July 18, 1961, on the envelope.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin--is that the American or the Russian postmark?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the American postmark.

Mr. DULLES. Time of receipt in this country?

Mr. RANKIN. That's right.

Now, Mrs. Oswald, I understand from you there was one letter before the letter bearing the date July 18, 1961, on the American postmark on the envelope, and you do not have that here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I may have it. I have many more papers and documents. I have a suitcase almost full that I have not yet opened. The suitcase was lost. We did not receive it until about 9 o'clock last night.

Mr. RANKIN. You have not produced it today, though.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. But there is one more letter. It is the very first letter I received from Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. I call the attention of the Commission to the statement in Exhibit 180, "She was living at her aunt's place when I met her. They are real nice people. Her uncle is a major in the Soviet Army."

Exhibit 181, dated August 3, 1961, was the envelope postmarked United States, August 10, 1961. I also offer that.

Exhibit 182, dated October 2, 1961, with the American postmark October 10, 1961. I also offer that.

In each case, Mr. Chairman, I ask leave to substitute copies in accordance with our understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will make a blanket ruling on all of them when you finish.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir.

Exhibit 183, dated October 22, 1959, with the American postmark on the envelope October 30, 1961. I offer it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say 1959 and then 1961?

Mr. RANKIN. '61----

Mr. DULLES. It is all '61?

Mr. RANKIN. You are correct--October 22, 1959, is the date on the letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. And on the envelope it is October 30, 1961, Vernon, Tex. Mrs. Oswald, can you explain that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Evidently Lee put the date incorrect--because I had no contact with Lee from the time--I had one contact with Lee from the time that he defected to Russia. And the only contact was when he was at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. Then the next contact was when the State Department wrote me his address, which was July, or June 1961. So where Lee put the 1959, I would say it was just an error, because the postmark proves the date.

As I have been saying FBI instead of Secret Service--I mean it is just----

Mr. RANKIN. A slip of some kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Is the 1959 letter available, the Metropole Hotel letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. When we go into the defection, I have letters from 1959 that I myself have sent to Lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, they are unopened, and I will give you the privilege of opening my thoughts to my son. They were returned unopened, because he was not located.

Mr. RANKIN. I might answer your question, Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of the Metropole letter of 1959.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Rankin, could I check--your Exhibit 182, the one you called just before this--I gathered that you gave a date of the letter and also a date of the postmark. Am I correct--October 2, 1961, is the date of the letter, and October 10, 1961, is the postmark.

Mr. RANKIN. That's correct.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, with regard to Exhibit 183, which bears the date October 22, 1959, in error, with October 30, 1961, as the postmark on the envelope, I wish to call the Commission's attention to this reference.

"Marina's maiden name was Prusakova. Her aunt and uncle's address in Minsk is"--and then the address is set out in Russian. And then continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any English. However, her uncle is an Army colonel soon to retire."

Mrs. OSWALD. And that I would think would be the letter that the Secret Service--was one of the letters that the Secret Service, as I previously stated, had.

Now, may I say something here?

Marina uses two names--Prusakova and Nikolaevna. Whether she was married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, I do not know. But I have a record of both names.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 183.

Representative FORD. Mr. Rankin, don't we have a record of those two names? Isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the other by her stepfather?

Mr. RANKIN. That is the record we have. That is what Mrs. Marina Oswald testified to. She testified in regard to Nikolaevna. And the other name appears on her papers as the father.

Mrs. OSWALD. But now Lee has said in one of those letters that her name is Nikolaevna. But then when he asked me in one of the letters to get an affidavit of support that Marina could come to the United States, that name appeared--Nikolaevna. Yet there are a couple of letters where he refers to her name as Prusakova. And I have it in his handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used Prusakova--Marina Prusakova Oswald. He did not use the name in the letters. That is what I find peculiar.

Mr. RANKIN. The explanation was that the Prusakova was the identification of the father, which is often done. And she explained that with regard to the child they did not want to name June Lee Oswald with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want that. But the Russian Government insisted that the father's name had to be shown.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am familiar with that. I have done research on that. In Russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. Now, Mr. Peter Gregory--his name is Peter Gregory, and his father's name is Peter, so his name is Peter Peter Gregory. They always use the father's name as a second name, regardless of sex. So June is named June Lee Oswald, which is Lee's name. And if there were two Lees it would be Lee Lee Oswald. That I know of.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 184 is dated November 8, 1961, and bears a postmark on the envelope November 18, 1961. I offer it in evidence.

Exhibit 185 is dated November 23d, without any year on the letter itself, with the postmark December 4, 1961, as the American postmark on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 185.

Exhibit 186 is Christmas greetings and bears the date December 12, 1961, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 186.

Exhibit 187 bears the date December 13, 1961, on the letter, and bears the postmark date December 26, 1961, on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 187.

Exhibit 188 bears the date December 20th, without any year on the letter, and the date January 2, 1962, stamped on the envelope. I offer Exhibit 188.

Exhibit 189 bears the date January 2d, and the stamped postmark on the envelope January 11, 1962. I offer Exhibit 189.

Exhibit 190 bears the date January 23d, on the envelope, January 22, 1961, written on the back of the envelope. I offer in evidence Exhibit 190.

Exhibit 191 bears the date January 20th, and stamped on the envelope is January 29, 1962. I offer Exhibit 191.

Mr. DULLES. These are all airmail letters?

Mrs. OSWALD. They are all registered return receipt mailed. Everything I had to sign for.

Mr. DULLES. Nine or 10 days apparently, it took.

Representative BOGGS. That is right--about 10 days, each one of them.

Mr. RANKIN. Apparently--it states "Par Avion". But this one bears a mark February 1, 1962, on Exhibit 192, and the letter itself is February 1, 1962. That is pretty fast.

Mr. DULLES. It must be 11. Isn't there a 1 left out on the other side?

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is in handwriting. So that would be pretty fast mail. I offer Exhibit 192.

Exhibit 193, dated February 9, 1962, on the letter, and it is stamped on the envelope as February 23, 1962. I offer Exhibit 193.

Exhibit 194 is dated February 15, 1962, on the letter, and stamped on the envelope March 1, 1962. I offer Exhibit 194.

Exhibit 195 is dated February 24th, without a year date, and the envelope is stamped March 7, 1962. I offer Exhibit 195.

Exhibit 196 is dated March 28th, stamped on the envelope is April 9, 1962. I offer Exhibit 196.

Exhibit 197 is dated April 22d, without a year date on the letter, and stamped on the envelope is April 28, 1962. I offer Exhibit 197.

Exhibit 198 is dated May 30, 1962, on the letter, and is stamped on the envelope June 6, 19--it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but there is a 196, and I take it is 1962. I offer Exhibit 198.

The CHAIRMAN. All of the documents that have just been offered in evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 180 through 198 for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. May I see it, please? Is that a letter from Russia? I don't think so, from what I can see from here.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be, Mrs. Oswald. I hand it to you. It is Exhibit 198 you are speaking of?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sorry. There was another very important letter of this size that I thought maybe became confused with the Russian letters. You will have to forgive me, Chief Justice Warren, but this is quite a big undertaking.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I just wanted to keep the record straight. It is all right.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask leave, Mr. Chairman, to substitute copies in each instance.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the Secret Service people that you described and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when I stopped--I have to remember where I stopped. Now, am I still at the Six Flags?

Mr. RANKIN. The last I recall you were still there. You had also described, if you remember, the offer of Mrs. Pultz to take your daughter-in-law and provide her a home. You have said that you had not seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate with her.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes--I was trying to communicate with her.

Mr. RANKIN. And you talked to Mr. Thorne?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--that was where my mail had been opened. And Mr. Mark Lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail.

Mr. RANKIN. I think the Commission would be very much interested in how you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I can help you. But I have many, many stories. I have to start from the defection. I have a story of Lee's life at age 16 that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. And I have many stories, gentlemen. I cannot do all these stories in these 6 hours I have been here today. I have covered quite a bit. I have many stories.

Representative BOGGS. Why did your son defect to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot answer that yes or no, sir. I am going to go through the whole story, or it is no good. And that is what I have been doing for this Commission all day long--giving a story.

Representative BOGGS. Suppose you just make it very brief.

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot make it brief. I will say I am unable to make it brief. This is my life and my son's life going down in history. And I want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as I have been doing. I am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good.

Representative BOGGS. Well, you use the expression "defector." I did not use that expression.

Mrs. OSWALD. I said "so-called defector." The papers have "defector" and blown it up.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have told us, though, that you believed that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Mrs. Paine and two Secret Service agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I also say----

The CHAIRMAN. What Mr. Rankin has asked you is what led you to the belief that there was such a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can answer that, sir. But just to answer in one sentence----

The CHAIRMAN. No, you don't have to do it in one sentence. Take your own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of that, and then we will go to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it is now quarter to four. And this is a very long story.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't worry, we will give you the time.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider I am very emotionally upset and tired, sir. I was up until 1 o'clock this morning fixing these papers for the Commission. When Mr. Rankin asked me to come on Thursday, they were not in the order they are now.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you cannot go on this afternoon?

Mrs. OSWALD. Not the whole story.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop whenever----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have so far given you enough story to state this as a fact--that I believe--I am saying as I believe, sir, because if I knew who shot President Kennedy, I would be more than happy to tell you, and we would end it right then and there. But there is speculation among everyone. So naturally there is speculation by myself, and these stories I have told you are fact.

Marina became very unhappy with America. This I know for a fact. And then I will say this is part of another story.

Marina told me at Mrs. Paine's home that she wrote to the Russian counsel to go back to Russia because, "Lee not get work." Now, that is why Lee tried to get a visa in Mexico. But you see, sir, I was going to tell that whole story of that. But I will answer this--and that is what I based that on, too.

It was Marina who wrote to the Russian counsel for exit visas, and Lee followed it up. That is Marina having Lee do this. And she told me herself. Yet she states that Lee wanted to live in Russia and Cuba. But Marina wrote to the Russian counsel, "Mama, Lee not get work." So she wanted to go back to Russia. She liked America. She wanted to stay here.

Mr. RANKIN. About what date was this?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the night in Mrs. Paine's home. I didn't tell you that, because these other stories are important, and I was going to bring it in for the Mexican trip. That is why I think you are confusing me. I'm sorry. But these stories--the way I want to say it, I would not forget anything by going in sequence. This way, when you are bringing me questions from the Mexican story and from the defection, you are throwing my mind off.

The CHAIRMAN. What story do you want to get to now?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have so many stories. And I have gone through about three or four today, complete stories.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue about the order. I want you to tell your story----

Mrs. OSWALD. My energy is exhausted, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to tell your story in your own way. And if this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, can you tell me what short story I can tell, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. Why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the Commission about your accident and Lee's going to Russia.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a very long story.

Mr. DOYLE. I know. But start it, and if you get tired at all, you advise the Commission, and I am certain that----

Mrs. OSWALD. I will have something very important to this Commission that I would like to say, that would take up some time.

Mr. Rankin, I spoke with you, I think it was Thursday, December 6th, and I told you that since it was publicly known I was going to appear before the Warren Commission, that I would like to have protection, as you recall. I did not get protection, sir. And so the next morning I called you, approximately 9 o'clock, in the morning and told you that I didn't have protection, and I was very concerned. And this would have been Friday, the second call, and that I was going to the bank, to my safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. And I definitely wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with me in my home, and the public knew I was going to testify, and I wanted that protection.

Now, you said, you would get in touch with Mr. Sorrels, sir, and have Mr. Sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my request to you that I did not have protection. Mr. Sorrels called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you want to go to the bank and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested protection."

I said, "Yes. I thought I had protection last night. I woke up 4 o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together and cleaning the house." Because the telephone started to ring consistently.

I would have never done that if I would have known I didn't have protection. I was leaving myself wide open.

So he said, "Well, is your attorney in town?"

I said, "No, he is not."

He said, "May I suggest this, Mrs. Oswald"--first, he said, "What do you intend to do with the papers?"

I said, "The papers will stay with me."

He said, "Is your attorney in there?"

I said, "No, sir, he is an out of town attorney."

He said, "May I suggest this. May we get a large brown envelope and put sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault."

I said, "No, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. I have had an understanding with Mr. J. Lee Rankin that the papers were going to stay with me, and that I would have complete surveillance while the papers were in my home. Now, Mr. Sorrels, I want that surveillance. I am very uneasy."

He said, "Mrs. Oswald"--this was approximately 10 o'clock in the morning--"Mrs. Oswald, I will not be able to have anyone there before 1 o'clock."

I said, "That is just fine."

Mr. Mike Howard came out at 1 o'clock. We did some errands. I had to buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. Then we had supper. And at 5:30 we picked up the papers, because on Friday in Fort Worth, Tex., the bank opens from 4 to 6--on Friday evening. So we picked up the papers before 6 o'clock.

Now, I thought I had protection that night. I had protection that night until 12 o'clock. And then I understand that the Fort Worth police were circling the neighborhood.

Now, that is not complete protection.

I am a government witness, with important papers. And Mr. Rankin had--I requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just shot through my home? The police circling three or four blocks away is not complete protection.

So Saturday morning I wanted to go out to breakfast. I kept opening the door and looking through the windows. And I never did see any men circling the neighborhood. There was nobody around. At 10:30 this morning I was still doing that. And by the way, a police car passed by and I hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood for the Secret Service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because I want to put my garbage out, and I needed to go out, didn't have breakfast. He said he didn't know what the Secret Service looked like, and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, which this Fort Worth policeman did.

So at 11 o'clock I called Mr. Mike Howard's home. His wife answered the phone.

I said, "I am very uneasy. I don't have protection. I have been looking for Secret Service men all morning."

I was going out on the porch--I was opening the screen door and going out on the porch. There is a school ground opposite my house. And nobody ever came. I was not under protection.

So she said, "Mrs. Oswald, they have their orders."

I said, "Well, where is Mr. Howard?"

She said, "He is on his way to your home."

This was Saturday, at approximately 11:45. Well, I have it written down. 11:45.

So Mr. Mike Howard when I told him that I was stranded, and could not go out to breakfast, and there was things I needed to do, he realized I was very upset, and I had a legitimate complaint, and he realized I was on my way to Washington.

So in my home he called Mr. Sorrels, who is a special agent in charge of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels was not at home. He talked to his daughter. And he said, "It is most important. Would you have him call me?"

So he sat in my home and waited for the call. About half an hour later Mr. Sorrels called.

He said, "Mr. Sorrels. I want to know what to do on this particular case?"

And there was some conversation back and forth. And it went on back and forth conversation.

So I said, "I am getting very upset about not knowing the entire conversation. I want to tell Mr. Sorrels that if he doesn't have the authority, to give me complete protection, I want to know the man over him, so I can get complete protection."

Mr. Mike Howard said, "He heard you, Mrs. Oswald."

So I don't know what went on on the other end of the line.

But Mr. Mike Howard was on the spot.

He said, "Well, Mr. Sorrels, it is this way. She is going to Washington, and Mrs. Oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. And if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she gets to Washington."

So I am assuming now--I am speculating, like everybody else--that Mr. Sorrels probably could have said, "Well, let her think she has protection," because Mr. Mike Howard had to come back in front of me, to his superior, and say, "That is no good. She might want to go some place, so we have to be here. I want to know what to do."

And then I got protection.

Now, isn't that peculiar--that I am a witness, with important papers, and supposed to be under surveillance, and I am not getting protection?

I would like to know the answer to these things. And Mr. Rankin himself called Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. RANKIN. I talked to Mr. Kelley.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry--but I knew you had placed a call, because Mr. Sorrels called me and said you had placed a call.

So why didn't I have complete protection?

There is a lot of "why's." There are a lot of "why's" that have to be answered.

Now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two Secret Service men. One of the NBC men, I think it is--I am not quite sure--was at the station. He asked me questions, and he knows about all of this, because he was in Fort Worth, Tex.

I would know his name if you would say it. Dave Benoski, I believe it is.

But he asked me a question. He said, "Mrs. Oswald, have you seen your daughter-in-law?"

I said, "No, I have not seen my daughter-in-law since Thanksgiving Day."

"Well, is it the Secret Service who have kept you from seeing your daughter-in-law?"

And I said, "Yes, it is the Secret Service who has kept me from seeing my daughter-in-law."

Which, to me, is a fact.

So in the car, with your two Secret Service agents, one was Mr. Brown and one was--I am very bad about names--he said, "Mrs. Oswald, what makes you want to blame the Secret Service? The time to have blamed the Secret Service was when it happened."

And I said, "I did blame the Secret Service when it happened. I made a report in Fort Worth, Tex., about that."

And I said, "The question was asked me." I answered him truthfully, "Yes, that the Secret Service have kept me from my daughter-in-law."

So he said, "Well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law doesn't want to see you?"

And I said, "She made the statement in Washington, the first time I have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not want to see me."

And Mr. Sorrels never told me.

Now, again, I don't believe this Secret Service man had the right to quiz me like he did. I was very upset. Mr. Doyle can verify the fact. When he came to the hotel I was on the verge of tears, because of this quizzing.

The point I want to make--he said, "Isn't it true that you have had complete protection by the Secret Service for the last 2 weeks, ever since the testifying began?"

I said, "No, sir; it is not true."

Now, where does he get the idea I have been under surveillance for 2 weeks? I don't understand these things.

Mr. DOYLE. Tell them about the defection.

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you please consider that I can't go any more today? It is 4 o'clock. The defection is a very long and important story that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age 16 tried to get Lee to enlist into the Marines. And it is a very important story, gentlemen. And I think you would be quite interested in it for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We will recess now until tomorrow. Mr. Doyle, I understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must make. But you will be available at 2 o'clock.

Mr. DOYLE. Two o'clock. Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon.

Mrs. OSWALD. I appreciate it, because I was up until late last night trying to get the papers for you. It wouldn't do you any good if I break down.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. So we will adjourn until 2 o'clock tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Tuesday, February 11, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 2 p.m. on February 11, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; John Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order. Are we ready to proceed?

Mr. DOYLE. If it please Your Honor----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Mark Lane is present as counsel, as I understand, for Mrs. Oswald. Although I have not talked to Mrs. Oswald about the matter, as I understand it Mr. Lane represented her from time to time, in one capacity or another in the past.

I do not know the particulars. Mrs. Oswald or Mr. Lane could better advise the Commission about the point.

Of course my designation was at the request of Mrs. Oswald to act in her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. True.

Mr. DOYLE. In view of the appearance--I wonder if it might be straightened out--if Mr. Lane wishes to enter his appearance in the matter.

Of course I would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, what is your wish?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane is just here for a few hours, Chief Justice Warren. He flew in just for a few hours. He is catching a 4 o'clock plane out. And I thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for these few hours.

The CHAIRMAN. Either he represents you or he does not.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he does not represent me.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we will excuse Mr. Lane.

Mr. LANE. Mr. Chief Justice----

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney for Mrs. Oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the two.

Mr. LANE. May I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, if it is permissible for me to function at Mrs. Oswald's request as her counsel together with Mr. Doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is not. And Mr. Doyle is doing this as a public service. We must respect his views in the matter.

Mr. LANE. I see. I did explain to Mr. Doyle before I came into the room exactly what the situation was. It was not until now that I understood his response.

Under those circumstances, I wonder if I might confer with Mrs. Oswald for just a minute or two.

The CHAIRMAN. If Mrs. Oswald wants to, she may.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

You may take another room, if you wish.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. LANE. Under the circumstances, since I do have to leave and I will not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since Mr. Doyle will not remain on jointly with me, I will at this time withdraw.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Now, we will continue. Mr. Rankin, you may continue with the hearing.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--If you would like me to do it now. I was going to lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. I have no proof, because naturally if I did I don't think we would be here.

But I feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything.

My way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at Six Flags and the way I was treated, as I have already put into the testimony, and as I stated yesterday, also, that I was supposed to be under protective custody, and I was not.

I wonder why I didn't have protective custody, why I am not important enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, that Mr. Sorrels, head of the Secret Service, didn't give me protective custody, even though you, yourself, Mr. Rankin, required it.

These are the things I have to face that to me are very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two Secret Service men and your son and--I didn't understand for sure whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the President.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, no----

Mr. RANKIN. And your daughter-in-law.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is not my statement. I said I thought that we have a plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. And I am thinking that probably these Secret Service men are part of it.

Now, I didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. I have made it strong. But I am under the impression that possibly there is a leak in our own government. And when I come to these papers--and I specifically yesterday morning asked about Senator Tower.

Now, I am not throwing any reflection on Senator Tower. But he made the statement in the paper that he had a letter from the State Department saying that Lee had renounced his citizenship.

Now, you see, I don't have that paper with me. I had it yesterday morning. But his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the dates that I have from the State Department papers which you gentlemen know that I have all these papers from the State Department. Nothing corresponds with what I have.

So I wanted to know and see this letter that Senator Tower claims he has. It could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, and I will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter.

Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman, I saw the letter that Lee Harvey Oswald wrote to Senator Tower the day after the assassination. And I believe I also saw the response that he received from one of the agencies of the Federal Government. Senator Tower had the original of the letter. If it is not in our Commission files, I am sure it is available for the Commission files--along with, whatever exchange of correspondence he had with the Department of State concerning the matter.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not correspond with anything that I have, I would like to know who in the State Department wrote this particular letter.

Representative FORD. I would not know who in the State Department wrote the letter. I would suspect it was the Assistant Secretary for Congressional Affairs, Fred Dutton, I believe.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not suspecting, because I have many, many letters from the State Department, and I also have something else that I will present that maybe would be another party involved. There is very conflicting testimony.

You must realize that I went to Washington in 1961 and was in conference with three officials. And this was another Administration.

Now, I don't know much about politics, gentlemen. But I do know a little from the news.

Lee's defection was in one Administration--right?

And now this is of another Administration, the Kennedy Administration. And there could be a leak in the State Department. That is not impossible.

So I have two instances that I, myself, am not satisfied.

Mr. RANKIN. A leak is so much different from a conspiracy to assassinate the President, though.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of. I cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday.

So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what do you have in that regard?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for a long time.

The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second time she said--and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack Lengett--she said, "You no have job."

In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go to--"You don't have job."

Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."

I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. You don't have job."

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. She was not supposed to speak English.

I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that is a question.

Mr. RANKIN. I thought you said she spoke broken English.

Mrs. OSWALD. Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been publicized over and over.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think she could understand English fluently?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.

Mr. RANKIN. How does that show she conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the Six Flags.

Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.

But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside.

I am trying to show this. And, as I go along--I cannot help but face this, gentlemen, it is a fact. I cannot help but face these things.

So I am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything else--circumstantial evidence, let's say.

I am just a layman. That is what you have against my son. Nobody saw him with a rifle shoot the President. So you have mostly circumstantial evidence.

I have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this.

The Secret Service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our President properly.

Now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, I think it is, Secret Service Judge Baughman--am I saying that right? He is the one that--how Lee got out of the building, and why the President--there are many, many people that wonder. So I, too, am wondering.

So I say that President Kennedy was improperly guarded. And I am not the only one that says that, sir. So I have to consider that. I have to consider the way I, myself, was treated at Six Flags for the three days.

When I came here today--I have these notes, something very important about that particular incident at Six Flags, to back up my story with a witness. You don't have to take my word for it.

Mr. RANKIN. What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before.

The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.

And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house.

All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.

Mr. RANKIN. Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy about that.

And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl.

I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.

Mr. RANKIN. You realize it is a very serious charge.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of President Kennedy.

You see, we have two sides here. It is a very serious charge, because no one saw him shoot the President. And yet this is an international affair. And the conclusion has come to the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald has shot President Kennedy, and he alone. Lee Harvey Oswald, or Mr. J. Lee Rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that many places in 29 minutes time. It is utterly impossible.

And this has been gone over by hundreds of people. There are investigations. I have 1,500 letters, sir--not just letters of sympathy--people that are investigating this. And I don't read all thoroughly, and I am a layman. But he step by step has been taken, from what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they saw him in the cafeteria drinking a Coca Cola, and the President came. Then he had to leave the building. He had so many blocks to walk before he caught a bus. He had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his home and got a coat. Then he walked a few more blocks and shot the policeman. Then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater.

In 29 minutes time it cannot be done.

So I am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--I am a human being, and I say my son could have shot the President, and he could have been involved. I am not the type mother to think that he is perfect and he could not do it. But I say he did not do it alone--if he did it. Because it is utterly impossible.

And I do not believe my son did it.

I think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was completely out of his mind. And yet there has been no statement to that effect. Wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. And Lee never did break, with his black eyes. He kept saying he was innocent. And yet in 12 hours time he was proven guilty. That doesn't make sense to me, an ordinary layman. So I have to consider who is involved.

Now, I am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. She had turned against me twice.

You, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that I told her to tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My testimony is true.

So now she has lied there, I have found out.

And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have to face that.

Mr. RANKIN. What else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that probably she--I think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base that on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well. I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. That is what I base it on.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us in summary?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, because I cannot, almost.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, fine. So all right.

If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the only way you can tell it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that Marina Oswald was----

Mrs. OSWALD. Had a part in it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an agent. I cannot prove these things.

But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. I could say who shot President Kennedy.

Mr. RANKIN. So in both cases of the agent--Lee being an agent, your son, and Marina Oswald and the Secret Service agents or anybody else conspiring with him for the assassination of President Kennedy, that is just suspicions. You cannot prove it--is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would not use the word suspicion, because I am not the type person to be suspicious and imagine things.

You may think so, because I am a woman. And this is my son. But my children were never tied to my apron strings.

And I can prove to you, in his defection in 1959, I made the statement that Lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he wanted to. They even said he was a Communist. If that is what he studied, and that is what he wanted to do, I accepted that, because that was his privilege as an individual. And that is public in 1959, my statement, which shows that I am not the sobbing mother kind because he has gone to Russia, and cry about it. I acknowledge that.

I have acknowledged that if the children, like Lee, went to Dallas, as I testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to Dallas--I don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. I have accepted that fact, because when Lee and Marina got ready to come to me that would be fine. In the meantime, I still have to live.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you telling the Commission that your son was part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am saying that I realize that my son could possibly be part--yes--I realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in this, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you saying he was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know. I am saying possibly he is involved.

Mr. RANKIN. And you are saying possibly Marina was involved?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like Mr. Wade said.

But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has.

Mr. RANKIN. You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I have told you how I was treated, which has given me cause for this particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?

So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am wrong, fine. But you may learn something.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the high official now. Can you tell us who that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I wish I did know. I have my own idea about that. I would rather not--because it is a high official--I would rather not give a name.

But I have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he might be.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us within this group what you think.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine--and I expect to, Mr. Rankin. I am a person that is very outspoken, as you know by now, and I will certainly do that.

But will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of the man in the State Department that wrote the letter to Senator Tower, because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is incorrect.

Mr. RANKIN. We will get that correspondence for you.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I was going to go into something else, but while we are here, I will continue this.

And this, to me, will be in this line. And I think very important to you gentlemen. And you do not have a copy of what I am going to show you. I am the only person that has this copy.

I am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. We sealed them up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. But I can get to this particular one. This is the defection. I have much more testimony than this. I have testimony, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that you can tell us the name of the high official you spoke about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think so. And I am going to tell you. But please do not ask me at this particular moment. I do not think this is the proper time for me to--it is just--I have no proof. Understand? As I said, it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers I have. I have papers where I can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion.

Now, this particular instance----

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent matter. I am very much interested in that. I cannot be here tomorrow. We laid all the groundwork for that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles would like to know her reasons for believing that he was an agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have two very long stories.

Mr. DULLES. I have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so I would like very much to have it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you could go into that question, Mrs. Oswald, because Mr. Dulles is not going to be here tomorrow.

Mrs. OSWALD. We have everything just so, and yet when we come here we don't have it. The International Rescue Committee is what I am looking for.

I have also the original application from the Albert Schweitzer coming that you gentlemen do not have.

The CHAIRMAN. Let's stay on one thing, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I am a little excited now, because I meant to go story by story.

Gentlemen, I have at least four more stories to tell--two I don't think there are some parts you possibly can know about.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while Mr. Dulles can be with us. That is why I asked you that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. We have a special file. You see, gentlemen, all morning long I was in the backroom and we were copying things. We had everything just so. So now I don't know what condition they are in. Mr. Doyle and I worked on the papers again last night and we had them just so. And then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again.

Mr. RANKIN. We tried to have you present so that would not happen. Mrs. Oswald. I guess you didn't accomplish that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw that they took it.

Well, I can be telling the story about it.

It is the International Rescue Committee, and a telegram.

I received a letter from Lee--this is going to be real short, Chief Justice Warren. It is going to continue this one story. And then I will go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that.

A letter from Lee asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon--I was on a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the Red Cross. And this is from Moscow. This is the letter from Moscow. And telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home.

Evidently you have that information. That I know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. So when I entered the Vernon Red Cross--now, this came with Lee's letter, Chief Justice Warren--the letter you have there direct from Moscow. That is why I have it, sir--because it was in Lee's letter asking me to go to the Red Cross in Vernon. So I have the original from Moscow.

I told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the paper. And I said, "Would you find out, please, the address of the International Rescue Committee? My son is in Russia and asked me to contact you."

She said, "What is your son doing in Russia?"

I said, "I don't know."

"You are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in Russia?"

I said, "Young lady, I said I do not know what he is doing in Russia."

"Well, I think anybody goes to Russia doesn't need any help to get back, they should stay over there."

So I said, "I am not interested in your personal opinion. I need help. Would you please contact, give me the address of the International Rescue Committee so I can continue to try to get money for my son to come home?"

She did not know of any address for the International Rescue Committee.

I asked her if she had a private line to Wichita Falls, which was approximately 40 miles away, which would be the next big city. She called Wichita Falls, and they did not know the address of the international committee.

So I called Robert and told Robert what I had and asked him to try to find out the address of the International Rescue Committee. However, he gave me no satisfaction.

Now, I sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the State Department, asking--I told them I was in a small town, Vernon, Tex., and I had received a letter from Lee asking me to get the address and help from the International Rescue Committee. But being a small town I had no success--could they help me out?

So they sent a telegram back with the address of the International Rescue Committee. That you have.

And this is Lee's letter--that goes with the other part.

Now, this young lady was very, very regalish. She didn't want to help anybody going to Russia. So when I received the telegram from the State Department, it was on a Saturday. I called her that morning. I was delayed 4 or 5 days. And to me it was very important, since my son and daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to come home, because I wanted that baby to be born here.

So I called her at her home and told her that I had the address from the State Department of the International Rescue Committee, and would she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for me.

She said, "Well, Mrs. Oswald, I don't have a key."

This is on a Saturday morning and she is in the courthouse.

I said, "Do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the Red Cross and you don't have a key?"

"No, I don't."

"Well, young lady, you have delayed me 4 days, and I don't like your attitude. I am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to the office and get this in the mail for me. It is very important."

So, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came.

So she wrote the letter to the International Rescue Committee, and handed it to me, and I mailed that letter--I mailed the letter.

This is dated January 22, 1962.

So she called me--her name--Mrs. Harwell. She is the only woman in the Red Cross office in Vernon, Tex.

She called me and told me she had received word from the International Rescue Committee. She read me this letter. So I said to Mrs. Harwell, "Do you mind if I take the letter, because I am very forgetful?"

So she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was her title and her address--it was addressed to her. This lady wanted no part of anybody in Russia--understand? So she cut this out.

But on the back page was the name. But that is why this space is here--she cut it out.

Now, the letter reads: "Since we had a call from the State Department on Mr. Oswald's case, your communication of January 14th did not come as a surprise."

So this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the International Rescue Committee.

"Since we have had a call from the State Department, your letter does not come as a surprise."

I mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her feelings about a boy in Russia.

Now, why does the State Department dicker with me--that is not the word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the International Rescue Committee?

I would like to know who from the State Department called the International Rescue Committee.

There is my information there that I requested. Why is a call necessary?

Mr. RANKIN. You think that shows there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted--and I am showing you what I have here. I don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the International Rescue Committee.

And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped.

I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from the State Department--yes, sir, I would.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not going to get the money. Read the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you these things.

Mr. RANKIN. If you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that is something different.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.

Mr. RANKIN. You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did have the proof, sir.

I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title.

Mr. DULLES. What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different conspiracy?

Mr. RANKIN. The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.

And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.

The CHAIRMAN. And Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. OSWALD. And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this particular source.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Rankin. I have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you understood. Because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze the papers that I have, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. The Commission would like to know what you base your assumption that your son was an agent on. Could you help us?

Mrs. OSWALD. Would you like me to go into this story--I will start with my son's life from the very beginning.

Mr. RANKIN. Can't we get down to----

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, we cannot. I am sorry. This is my life. I cannot survive in this world unless I know I have my American way of life and can start from the very beginning. I have to work into this. I cannot answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. And I will not answer yes or no. I want to tell you the story. And that is the only way you can get a true picture. I am the accused mother of this man, and I have family and grandchildren, and Marina, my daughter-in-law. And I am going to do everything I can to try and prove he is innocent.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, now, Mrs. Oswald, you are not claiming before this Commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--at age 16.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, why don't you start with age 16, then.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, aren't you gentlemen--I have a letter from you, Mr. Rankin. Aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very beginning? I think you should, because it has been exploited in all the magazines and papers. And this is not my son is what I am trying to say. He is not a perfect boy, and I am not a perfect woman. But I can show a different side of Lee Harvey Oswald, which I hope to do to this Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I plan to ask you about his early life and these other parts. But I thought it would be helpful if you would be willing to do it to tell the Commission, while Mr. Dulles is here, what you base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the Government.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I would be happy to do it.

Mr. RANKIN. If you have to go to when he was 16 years old as the first point, that will be fine.

But if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I have your word that you will let me have my life story from early childhood and Lee's life story from early childhood.

Now, I will start from age 16. Is that satisfactory?

Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much. We were in New Orleans, La., at this particular time. On or about October 5th or 7th--and you have this, gentlemen, as my proof, that I am telling a true story, and I will have witnesses that will be called--is a letter----

Mr. DULLES. What year, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said 1959--I am sorry. 1955. No, wait now. 1956--when we left New Orleans is 1956. Am I not correct? I am a little excited now, because of what happened before. The note----

Mr. RANKIN. He joined the Marines in 1956. Does that help you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Wait. We have a note from the Beauregard School by me that I was going to San Diego. Do you have the note?

Mr. RANKIN. We do.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I see that note, please? And that is approximately October 5th or the 7th, I think it is, 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I think you moved to Fort Worth with Lee in September 1956.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. So it was in '55. I think that is correct. Let me see.

Mr. RANKIN. We are handing you this book that we received from the State of Louisiana that is Commission's Exhibit No. 365, and turn to page 11 and you will find the note you referred to.

Mrs. OSWALD. To the school. All right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. This is my note, isn't, to the school, that I am moving to San Diego. And it has been blasted in all the papers how I moved around, and I was going to San Diego.

Gentlemen, I had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever.

Lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about October 5th or the 7th--October 7th. And now comes the story why he wrote the note.

If you will see here, this is Lee's handwriting, to the letters.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence that note on page 11.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 199, and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I had nothing to do with this note.

Now, I am working at Kreeger's Specialty Shop, 800 and something Canal Street in New Orleans, La. I received a telephone call from the principal of the Beauregard School saying. "Mrs. Oswald, I understand you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose Lee."

Of course now, gentlemen, I am working and this is news to me.

So I said--I kind of went along with it a little bit.

Lee came into this shop later on that day. Miss Lillian New, I think her name was, who is manager of Kreeger's Shop, and has been for years--she will witness this.

He said, "Mother, I have quit school."

Mr. RANKIN. You say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of went along with it. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. When the lady called me and said that, "I understand you are leaving town, Mrs. Oswald."

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in jeopardy, I don't know the exact words, but I said--I had to be kind of vague about it and not discuss it. I knew I wasn't leaving town, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell her you were not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't think I told her. But I had to be very--I would lose my job if they thought I was leaving town. It was news to me.

So Lee that afternoon, from school, came into Kreeger's Specialty Shop where I was working and said, "Mother. I want to join the Marines, and I have quit school."

Now, Mr. Kreeger--and he may be leaving--Mr. Frank Kreeger who is owner of Kreeger's Specialty Shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a very small shop, and Miss Lillian, who was manager, knows of this. I became very excited and I started to cry. And they let me go home with Lee.

So Lee was determined at age 16--his birthday was going to be October 18th, right--and this was October 7th--was going to join the Marines. So what Lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which I would not do. And he kept after me, like a boy.

Now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the Marines.

"I don't see why you don't just put that I am 17 years old."

I said, "Lee. We cannot do that."

He said, "Everybody else"--

I said, "No, I am not going to do it."

For 2 or 3 days Lee and I bickered back and forth about me falsifying his age.

So I have a very good friend, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney in New Orleans, La. I called him and told him I had a personal problem. I had not seen Mr. Sehrt since early childhood. I knew the family. That Lee was not of age and he wanted to join the Marines. And he quit the school and told them we were going out of town.

He said, "Marguerite, I cannot advise you. It would be unethical. But a lot of boys join the service at age 16."

So he could not advise me.

My sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, 757 French Street, knows of the complete story. And so does my brother-in-law, Mr. Charles Murret, who also said, "Let him join, let him go. If he wants to go so badly, let him join the Marines."

I, at that time, was living at 126 Exchange Place, which is the Vieux Carre section of the French Quarter of New Orleans.

And, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that particular address.

Gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the French part of town. It looks like the devil. Of course I didn't have a fabulous apartment. But very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where the homes are.

So I was very upset.

There was a colonel on the street that I stopped--I didn't know him--I said, "Sir, I would like to talk with you." I told him about the boy wanting to join the Marines and I didn't know what to do. I was frantic. And he was insistent that I let him join the Marines at age 16.

So he advised me, "Well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him join the Marines. It is done all the time."

Now, I was not too happy about this situation.

Now, a recruiting officer from the Marine Reserve in New Orleans, La., was in my home the next day when I arrived from work, with Lee, in uniform, in the home when I got into the home. He introduced me to him and he said, "Mrs. Oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. He was very vague about the thing.

I said, "No, Lee is too young, age 16, to join the Marines. They are liable to send him overseas."

He said, "There is less delinquency in Japan and those places than we have here."

He saw nothing wrong with it.

What he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but not in plain words. He was telling me it would be all right for the boy to join the Marines. He came to my home personally.

So I went to an attorney with Lee, because--here is the thing.

Lee's birth record is in New Orleans. And I knew that the Marine Corps could easily check on this child, age 16--his birth record. So in order to have a happy situation, so I could work, and to see Lee, I went to an attorney and paid $5 and said that I lost Lee's birth certificate, and kind of motioned to the attorney. I knew it would not stand up. I bought Lee a duffle bag and everything, and Lee went--we told him goodby, and Lee was going to join the Marines.

I had to accept that, gentlemen. There was no other way I could do, but accept the fact to let him go.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that attorney?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Clem Sehrt.

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt allegedly tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. BOGGS. What did Mr. Sehrt tell you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Sehrt is a family friend.

Mr. BOGGS. I know Mr. Sehrt very well.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said according to attorney ethics that he would not be able to advise me. Before you came in, sir, I had stated that.

Now, when I get interrupted, I lose--this is a big thing for me. I am not making excuses. But, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this.

So Lee came home. And he said the captain said that he was too young.

Now, I don't question much. I don't know whether Lee changed his mind, or they sent Lee home. I do not know. I do not question that.

All right.

Lee, at age 16, read Robert's Marine manual back and forth. He knew it by heart. Robert had just gotten out of the Marines, and his manual was home. And Lee started to read communistic material along with that.

Mr. RANKIN. What communistic material did he read?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. And I knew he was reading it, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it in Marxism, or what was it about?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--if you are saying the title is Marxism--no, sir, the title was not.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it about communism?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was more about communism. I knew he was reading it. But if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly it is all right for us to read. And I think we should know about these things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read subversive material, which we call subversive material. So I, as a mother, would not take the book away from him. That is fine. Lee is a reader. I have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps.

So that is fine.

What I am saying now--we are getting to this agent part.

He is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the Marine manual--he knew it back and forth. In fact, he would take the book and have me question some of the things. And he was reading communism.

Lee lived for the time that he would become 17 years old to join the Marines--that whole year.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you.

His first job was Tujaque and Son, who was steamship people, and he was a messenger. And then he had a lot of friends.

Now, they say Lee didn't have friends. There were boys of his age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming to my home. And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir.

And I think that is the only two jobs--no, Lee worked after school for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe salesman.

That was his first job--while he went to school he worked there.

And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job was Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this dental laboratory job--that is correct.

So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex., because Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. Robert was raised in Texas, and has his girl friends and all his friends in Texas. So when Robert got out of the Marines, he wanted to live in Texas. So I know that Lee wants to join the Marines at age 17, so in the month of July 1956--and, gentlemen, I have always been broke, and I mean broke. About a week before rent time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. Yet I take my furniture and ship it to New Orleans so Lee could be with his brother and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with Robert he would not join the Marines at age 17 and finish his schooling.

When Lee became age 17, October 18th, he joined the Marines.

The reason why he didn't go into the Marines until October 24th was the recruiting officer at the Marines could not understand his birth certificate, because his father had died 2 months before. So I had to send for an affidavit, even though I had the death notice from the paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand that about that two months. I had to send to New Orleans for an affidavit of his father's death.

And so then Lee joined the Marines on October 24th.

From the 18th to the 24th every day Lee was leaving. We even laughed about it. Because he would leave in the morning and come home in the evening. And it was because he was born 2 months before his father--so he did join the Marines at age 18.

Now--that, Mr. Dulles, is the part you wanted to know. But, before, that has something to do with it. Lee----

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he was an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is one part. That is the beginning of it, Mr. Dulles. I have much more. That is the beginning of it, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did he join at 18 or 17?

Mrs. OSWALD. He joined at age 17. I signed the paper. You will please forgive me when I make mistakes, and if you will correct me.

Now, at age 15-1/2 Lee was a member of the Civil Air Patrol.

Do you have that information, gentlemen?

I don't think you have.

Now, just a minute. I am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my papers. I put this in my bag.

I have a picture right here--this is Lee at age 15-1/2 in the uniform of the Civil Air Patrol. This is before the recruiting officer. We are going back.

And this is what helped Lee to make up his mind to join the service.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. At age 15-1/2 or so, Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol. He went on an airplane, on flights and everything. I got him the uniform, with Robert's help. This young man--now, I do not know his name. He is from New Orleans. And I am checking on these things. I have to do research on all of this, and do it alone.

This young man and Lee were very friendly. The young man that gave Lee the idea of--went to Beauregard School with him, and he and Lee joined the Civil Air Patrol together. That is the way I wish to state this. And he often came to the house. So there is a close friend of Lee. Lee is not supposed to have any friends.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any girl friends, too?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Now, neither did Robert or John Edward. No, sir. Neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age 17.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these that you recall?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I would not say he had--unless during working--he was working at this time, and I was working during the day. But I mean at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the other young men, as I told you before.

Now, we are at the Civil Air Patrol.

And that is why Lee went to the Marine Corps, is because of the Civil Air Patrol. He wasn't in the Civil Air Patrol long.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that caused you to think he was an agent, have you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe, sir, I am not doing a very good job of what I am saying.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think you have said that caused you to think----

Mrs. OSWALD. I have said that a Marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that Lee then continued reading Robert's manual by heart, and started reading communist literature. He is preparing himself to go into the Marine service--at age 17--this year before he actually joined the service. I am saying he is already preparing himself.

Mr. RANKIN. To become an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think with the influence of this recruiting officer.

Mr. RANKIN. You think the recruiting officer inspired him----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, influenced this boy.

Mr. RANKIN. ----to read the communist literature?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--and Robert's Marine book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else you base that on, except what you have told us?

Mrs. OSWALD. About him being an agent?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when I get through the whole story.

Mr. RANKIN. I mean as far as the recruiting officer.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Otherwise than Lee's attitude. Lee read this manual. He knew it by heart. I even said, "Boy, you are going to be a general, if you ever get in the Marines."

Mr. RANKIN. And you base the idea----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had the idea.

Mr. RANKIN. He was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by this recruiting officer?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. By what you have told us about his reading the communist literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the Marine Corps?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And then living to when he is age 17 to join the Marines, which I knew, and which he did at age 17 on his birthday.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever became an agent or was going to become an agent on?

Mrs. OSWALD. Many, many things. We always watched--it is "I Led Three Lives"--the program--Philbrick. We always watched that. And when Lee returned from the service and the Marines, the three days--that program was on, and he turned it off. He said, "Mother, don't watch that, that is a lot of propaganda."

It has been stated publicly that the FBI did not know--didn't have Lee on the subversive list--I am probably not saying this right, gentlemen--but the rightwing in Dallas. I don't know anything politically. The FBI and Secret Service had a list of names in Dallas of people that had to be watched, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not on that list. That would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on the list.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you get that from?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the newspapers and all over. And there has been a lot of comment about this all through.

Now, I don't say it is correct. But what I have explained to you before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because I know the boy and the whole life, and you do not, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I want to try to find out all you know about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine. And I want you to.

Also, Lee's letters--and I have them in the hotel--I didn't bring them, because I thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every letter from Lee tells me something.

When Lee is coming back from Russia he says, "I plan to stop over in Washington a while."

Lee says in the letter, "Marina's uncle is a major in the Soviet Union."

"I am an American citizen and I will never take Soviet citizenship."

If you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every letter is telling his mother--"If something happens to me, Mother, these are facts."

I might be elaborating. But I think my son is an agent. And these things piece by piece are going together, as far as I am concerned.

Representative FORD. When did you first think he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee defected. And I have always said a so-called defection, for this reason.

Now, we come to another letter. I am going to have to take some time now, because we are not going in sequence. The letter Lee wrote to me from New Orleans is what I need.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the letter in which he says he was going to Washington?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I gave you that copy yesterday. I don't have the letter with me. They are at the hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. You gave it to us yesterday?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--that he would stop over in Washington.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the date of that one?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, he was supposed to arrive in New York on the 13th of June, 1962. And that is the letter. When he arrived, I do not know. And I do not know if he went to Washington.

As I stated yesterday, he went to Robert's house, and I was on a case. So I don't know when he arrived in New York.

Now, this is the letter. Lee is out of the Marines, and he stays home with me 3 days. And I have publicly stated--and this came out of my book this morning--Lee came home September 14, 1959. He stayed 3 days with me. Said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. Possibly export and import. He remarked he could make more money that way.

The next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his being in Russia.

This is the letter.

"Dear Mother"-----

Mr. DULLES. Is that dated?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is just dated September. He was released from the Marine Corps on September 14th--I believe I am correct, Mr. Rankin.

And he stayed with me 3 days.

And then this is--well, the date on the envelope is September 19th. He stayed with me 3 days.

"Dear Mother, well, I have booked passage on a ship to Europe. I would have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now."

"I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. Lee."

Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion.

Now, what would you think about this?

A few days later you get headlines. "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the letter.

It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. So you would read the letter that way.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the Marines?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you recall any letters you received from your son during the time he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I have a special delivery letter. You see, gentlemen, that is why I have tried to explain to you before--if I could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. This is a letter from the Marines saying he is going to contact the Red Cross--when I told him about my illness.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting out of the Marines because of your need of his help and support.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any other correspondence from him while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did have several letters.

What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call the police, because of the defection. I was working for $5 a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would.

But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go.

She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police."

So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home.

When I went out to his home, I brought Lee's seabag, Mr. Rankin, with me. And I stayed there just a short time. And Robert Oswald would not let me have Lee's seabag. And there were a few letters in there from Lee in the seabag.

And so I don't have the seabag.

You can read this letter, then, this way. That he is telling me he is defecting to Russia.

We all agree there.

Then this same letter could be read the way I read it, as a mother.

After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee arrived home--and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't, I have copies.

The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place."

I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room.

So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother."

So morning came.

I brought the subject up immediately. I said, "The first thing we will have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job."

He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money."

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, I will have to break if you don't. This is a very, very serious life that I have gone through.

I didn't answer Lee.

This is the way I do the children.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a 10 minute recess now.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Rankin, you mentioned about the $1,600. Now. I don't know if you know for a fact that Lee had $1,600. It was publicized in the paper that he had $1,600, which is right here in 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about that at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he gave me $100. And he and his brother Robert had arrived. And I am assuming it was over me because Robert did not help me. And I have made that public in the Red Cross papers, that he had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was to their family. I had no help from the other two boys. And he gave me $100, and I stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then I got the job for $5 a week. And that is Lee's defection.

So here is my only contact with Lee in Russia, at the Metropole Hotel--this is dated December 18, 1959.

Now, I have settled with the insurance company, and I have a little money. So I sent a check to Lee for $20. And this is his little note. The only contact I had with Lee from the time of his immediate defection until the State Department 2 years later informed me of my son's address. And this is his little note that he needs money.

So I would say that Lee didn't have $1,600, according to this proof.

Now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the letter to the school was from me. And you will have to admit that I have given you new evidence. And so maybe Lee didn't have $1,600, because he is asking for money there. That is when he is right in Moscow.

Mr. RANKIN. Of course, that is quite a while later.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. He defected the end of November. This is December 1959.

Mr. RANKIN. But he----

Mrs. OSWALD. He had to make passage, and have some money. I don't know if it took $1,600. I do not know, sir. But I am saying 5 weeks later he needs money. We haven't gotten to this file yet.

I will quote from a newspaper, the Star Telegram, 1959, his defection, by Mrs. Aline Mosby, who interviewed Lee in Moscow. It says here, "I saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, he said. He insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty."

We had a very happy family. He insisted--this is the story in 1959. Lee had a normal childhood.

And now he is criticizing the United States. He says, "Many things bothered him in the United States. Race discrimination, harsh treatment of underdog, Communists and hate." Then on the other letter he is going to Russia to write a book. And there is another story and another story. And all kind of stories. So what are we to believe, gentlemen. Is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. We are talking about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. And we know when he came back that he did go to Mrs. Bates, a Fort Worth stenographer, and talked about the Soviet Union. She made it public. And he only had $10. And he did not finish that story. And she said he was very nervous. And he did not say he was an agent. But she got the impression that he was an agent. This has been made public in the Star Telegram--if you do not have that, I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter about his booking passage?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You read the original?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And this material on the bottom is just your own writing?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This was in this book. That is my writing at the bottom.

Mr. RANKIN. The letter I was referring to is Exhibit 200.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 200.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 200 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this one starting, "Dear Mother, received your letter, and so forth"--that is the one about the Marines, when he was asking you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the letter which shows the different character of the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when I wrote and told him I had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. I have contacted the Red Cross, and they will contact you." This is a nice boy to do this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. He is not a louse, like the papers have been making him out. He might have some bad points, but so do all of us.

Mr. RANKIN. We will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 201 is the letter you are just referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 201.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 201 and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Then, Mrs. Oswald, the other one that you received from Russia, with the check and the little note from your son Lee is the one I am showing you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that as Exhibit 202?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 202 and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. Admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 202 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I have followed up that request and sent the $20 bill in an envelope. And I have all of this. But I am not going to go through all this paper. You will have all of this.

Mr. DULLES. Did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is what I am going to tell you. So I put a $20 bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to Lee. And then after I thought about it, I thought of a foreign money order. And gentlemen I have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will copy and have it--everything I am saying. So then I went to the bank and I got a foreign money order for $25, and I sent it to Lee. It all went air mail. But it came back about 2 months later, Mr. Dulles--the $20 bill I got back in cash and the Chase National Bank foreign money order, that check came back in cash. I will have that proof for you. I understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long.

So I had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. I didn't know until about 2 months later he had not received my money. And by that time--well, I didn't know where he was, because I came to Washington in January of 1961, had a conference with Mr. Boster--Mr. Stanfield----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was a Russian agent at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not think he was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I thought you answered in response to a question I asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected.

Mrs. OSWALD. I might have said defected to Russia. No, sir; I never thought Lee was a Russian agent.

Representative FORD. I meant an agent of the United States. It is my recollection that you said when he defected to the Soviet Union, you then thought he was an American agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. What else caused you to think he was an American agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. I might be letting things out the way I am going. And I am very unhappy about this. Had I started with his childhood I could have worked up to age 15 very peacefully, and you would have gotten everything. I hope I am not forgetting anything important. But now we have letters from the State Department.

Well, my trip to Washington has to come before the letters to the State Department, sir. So I am in conference with the three men. I showed them the letter from the--the application from the Albert Schweitzer College, and Lee's mail had been coming to my home. I didn't know whether he was living or dead. I did not want to mail these papers. So I made a personal trip to Washington.

I arrived at Washington 8 o'clock in the morning. I took a train, and borrowed money on an insurance policy I have, which I have proof. I had a bank account of $36, which I drew out and bought a pair of shoes. I have all that in proof, sir, the date that I left for the train. I was 3 nights and 2 days on the train, or 2 days and 3 nights. Anyhow, I took a coach and sat up.

I arrived at the station 8 o'clock in the morning and I called the White House. A Negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the offices were not open yet, they did not open until 9 o'clock. He asked if I would leave my number. I asked to speak to the President. And he said the offices were not open yet. I said, "Well, I have just arrived here from Fort Worth, Tex., and I will call back at 9 o'clock."

So I called back at 9 o'clock. Everybody was just gracious to me over the phone. Said that President Kennedy was in a conference, and they would be happy to take any message. I asked to speak to Secretary Rusk, and they connected me with that office. And his young lady said he was in a conference, but anything she could do for me. I said, "Yes. I have come to town about a son of mine who is lost in Russia. I do want to speak--I would like personally to speak to Secretary Rusk." So she got off the line a few minutes. Whether she gave him the message or what I do not know. She came back and said, "Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Rusk"--so evidently she handed him a note--and Mr. Boster was on the line--"that you talk to Mr. Boster, who is special officer in charge of Soviet Union affairs"--if I am correct. And Mr. Boster was on the line. I told him who I was. He said, "Yes, I am familiar with the case, Mrs. Oswald." He said, "Will an 11 o'clock appointment be all right with you?" This is 9 o'clock in the morning. So I said--this is quite an interesting story--I said, "Mr. Boster that would be fine. But I would rather not talk with you." I didn't know who Mr. Boster was. I said, "I would rather talk with Secretary of State Rusk. However, if I am unsuccessful in talking with him, then I will keep my appointment with you."

So I asked Mr. Boster--I said, "Mr. Boster, would you please recommend a hotel that would be reasonable?" He said, "I don't know how reasonable, Mrs. Oswald, but I recommend the Washington Hotel. It will be near the State Department and convenient to you."

So I went to the Washington Hotel. And as we know, gentlemen, there were nothing but men. They asked me if I had reservation. I said, "No, I didn't, but Mr. Boster of the State Department recommended that I come here." So they fixed me up with a room. I took a bath and dressed. I went to the appointment--because this is 9:30, I am on the phone, and I had to take a cab to the hotel. I arrived at Mr. Boster's office at 10:30.

But before arriving at Mr. Boster's office. I stopped at a telephone in the corridor, and I called Dean Rusk's office again, because I didn't want to see Mr. Boster, and I asked to speak to Dean Rusk. And the young lady said, "Mrs. Oswald, talk to Mr. Boster. At least it is a start."

So then I entered around the corridor into Mr. Boster's office. I have all the pictures of the State Department and everything to prove this story is true. I told the young lady. "I am Mrs. Oswald. I have an 11 o'clock appointment." Mr. Boster came out and said, "Mrs. Oswald, I am awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home."

So he called Mr. Stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the other man--I don't have that name here for you, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it Mr. Hickey?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Mr. Hickey. You are correct.

So then we were in conference. So I showed the papers, like I am showing here. And I said, "Now, I know you are not going to answer me, gentlemen, but I am under the impression that my son is an agent." "Do you mean a Russian agent?" I said, "No, working for our Government, a U.S. agent. And I want to say this: That if he is, I don't appreciate it too much, because I am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," on that order.

I had the audacity to say that. I had gone through all of this without medical, without money, without compensation. I am a desperate woman. So I said that.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. They did not answer that. I even said to them, "No, you won't tell me." So I didn't expect them to answer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you mean you were seeking money from them?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I didn't think that my son should have gone--in a foreign country, and me being alone. What I was saying was that I think my son should be home with me, is really what I implied.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you tell them that?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the words that I said before--I didn't come out and say I want my son home. But I implied that if he was an agent, that I thought that he needed to be home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about believing that your son might know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the Soviet Union, he might like it better there than he did here?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember saying this. I know what I did say, and they agreed with me. I said--because I remember this distinctly. I said, "Now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. If he is a defector"--because as we stated before, I don't know he is an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an individual.

And they said, "Mrs. Oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same way about it." That was their answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about possibly he liked the Soviet way of life better than ours?

Mrs. OSWALD. I may have. I do not remember, sir. Honestly. I may have said that. I recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "We want him also to do what he wants to do."

So now this is January 2, 1961, is my trip to Washington. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961--which is 8 weeks--I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, there was no comment to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. And they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You are sure they didn't tell you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am positive. I said to them, "Of course, I don't expect you to answer me." No, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent at all. And in fact, I would think, just as a layman, that the State Department would not even consider discussing that with me. But I mean it was not discussed. I am positive of that.

Mr. RANKIN. If they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they did say that to you, that would be incorrect?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. That is incorrect. Because I said, "I don't expect you to tell me. But if he is an agent," I didn't think it was the thing to do.

Well, on January 21 was my trip to Washington, 1961. Approximately 8 weeks later, on March 22, 1961, I received a letter from the State Department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, if you don't, sir, I have the copies. And also stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States--just 8 weeks after my trip to Washington.

Now, you want to know why I think my son is an agent. And I have been telling you all along.

Here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. On March 22 I receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to return back to the United States. You have that, sir?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. On April 30, 1961, he marries a Russian girl--approximately 5 weeks later.

Now, why does a man who wants to come back to the United States, 5 weeks later--here is the proof--April 30, 1961, is the wedding date--marry a Russian girl? Because I say--and I may be wrong--the U.S. Embassy has ordered him to marry this Russian girl. And a few weeks later, May 16, 1961, he is coming home with the Russian girl. And as we know, he does get out of the Soviet Union with the Russian girl, with money loaned to him by the U.S. Embassy. I may be wrong, gentlemen, but two on two in my books makes four.

I have many more things that can go to this, and that has been published. I will probably never know whether my son was an agent, because I do not expect to be told these facts. But isn't it peculiar that a boy is coming home, and the Embassy informs me of that--I have all this, Mr. Rankin, and you know I do. You will have the copies. And then 5 weeks later he marries a Russian girl. And the proof of it is that he does come home with the Russian girl in a short length of time. And Lee would have been home 1 year earlier. But because of the lack of money to come home.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever ask him whether he married the Russian girl because they ordered him to?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never asked Lee any questions of that kind. The only question I asked Lee was when they were living with me that 1 month, I said, "Lee, I want to know one thing. Why is it you came back to the United States when you had a job and you were married to a Russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and everything. So they seemed to be well off.

I have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the postage is terrific. He says, "not even Marina knows that." And that is the only question I have ever asked my son. This may be hard to believe. But I have explained to you over and over that I think we, as individuals, have a right to our own life.

Mr. RANKIN. You saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together with you, didn't you, for some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. They lived with me 1 month.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think they were in love with each other?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they were definitely in love with each other. Yes, I think they were in love with each other.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think at that time it was just because he was an agent and ordered to marry her that he married her?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I would say this. This is purely speculation. He knew Marina, and he loved Marina. They met at a dance. So that was--he had a girl friend. We are saying if he is an agent--I have to say "if." Then he tells the Embassy that he is in love with a Russian girl. And so it is a good idea to bring the Russian girl to the United States. He will have contacts.

Now, when I was in Mrs. Paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers from Lee. The Daily Worker I happen to know about. And many, many subversive--now, I say if Lee is going to assassinate a President, or Lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, Lee would not have all these things, he would not have his finger in everything.

He would not be reading only communism and Marxism, that he would be a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the President.

But that is not the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee has his hand in everything.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by everything?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Cuba--because we know in New Orleans he was arrested for Fair Play for Cuba. He read the Daily Worker. And the other ones I don't know. But it was in the paper. There is plenty of subversive material.

Mr. RANKIN. What about books? Did he read books much while he was living with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he read continuously. He went immediately to the library upon coming to the United States. He read continuously. All kinds of books. I tried, when he defected--I went to the library to find out the kind of literature that Lee read. But they could not give me that information. They said the only way they could give that information was when a book was overdue, and was out. But otherwise they have no record.

Now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe New Orleans is different, I don't know, but I know in Fort Worth I could not get the information. Stated he had books--the assassination of Huey Long and things of that sort. They must have a different system. Because in Fort Worth, Tex., they do not have that system. The only way they can tell is if a book is out. But I know Lee read. And I have stated in 1959 all of this.

Anyway, from Vincent Peale on down to anything you want to mention. Lee read continuously.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there any time that Marina said anything to you to lead you to believe that she thought your son, Lee, married her because he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, no, sir. Not at any time at all.

Mr. RANKIN. You think she loved him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I believe that Marina loved him in a way. But I believe that Marina wanted to come to America. I believe that Lee had talked America to her, and she wanted to come to America. I say this for a lot of little things that happened--that Marina wanted to come to America. Maybe she loved him. I am sure she did, anyway. She said that she did.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. You don't mean that your son didn't love her.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this girl friend, and the Embassy helped him get this Russian girl out of Russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take her to America, if that would give him contact with Russians, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that what you mean?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say that.

Mr. RANKIN. And you don't think it was because your son loved her, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether my son loved her or not. But I am telling you why he would do this--in 5-weeks time. Now, you have a 5-week period in here.

Mr. RANKIN. I understand that. But I think it is a very serious thing to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, it is not a serious thing. I know a little about the CIA, and so on, the U-2, Powers, and things that have been made public. They go through any extreme for their country. I do not think that would be serious for him to marry a Russian girl and bring her here, so he would have contact. I think that is all part of an agent's duty.

Mr. RANKIN. You think your son was capable of doing that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I think my son was an agent. I certainly do.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you got anything more that caused you to think he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have things that have been coming out in the paper. And I am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. There has been many, many publications questioning whether Lee was an agent or not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the newspapers.

Mr. RANKIN. That is newspaper accounts you are talking about now?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And as I said about the FBI.

Mr. RANKIN. What about your own knowledge?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, that is why I wanted to go into the story. I wouldn't have become emotionally upset had I started in sequence.

I told you about him not wanting me to see that program. And then the letters. There is so much. About him being an agent--all of his correspondence with the Embassy in Moscow. I have the letters in the hotel. One of the letters states that the Russians cannot hold you--"the Russians cannot hold you. You are an American citizen. You are not a bona fide Russian resident." We have the letters. You have a copy of the letter, Mr. Rankin.

And "if you will show this letter to the Russians, they cannot hold you in Minsk."

Mr. RANKIN. They would say that about you if you were over there, or anyone.

Mrs. OSWALD. The point I am trying to bring there is Lee has always been an American citizen--according to all of my papers from the State Department.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. And they would say that about anyone--all right, I will grant you that. You are probably right.

Mr. RANKIN. So that doesn't prove he is an agent, that I can see.

Now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because he has the sanction of the American Embassy all through this affair.

Mr. RANKIN. They would give that to any of us.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right--so you are telling me that. But this man is married to a Russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and could have come back sooner. It was the lack of money. And that is another thing.

The State Department repeatedly kept writing me, and I have the letters, for the money. I have copies of my letters also. I could not raise the money. I said I had a '54 Buick car, and all I could get a loan on was $250. They wrote back and said could you ask some friends, or do you have any relatives--800 and some odd dollars they needed. And I went to 12 very prominent people in Vernon, Tex.--one who is a very respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen award. And I felt very confident maybe he would help me. I told him that my son, who was a very young man, who was an American citizen, is trying to get back to the United States, but there is lack of money, and if he knew of any way possible he could help me.

He said "You mean he is a defector?" I said, "Possibly so. The paper has said he was a defector." And he said, "Well, I am sorry, Mrs. Oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, I don't have any use for."

And I said, "Do you go to church, sir?" He said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Probably you go to church to put your hat on. Because here is a boy. Let's say he has made a mistake. He has gone to Russia. But let's say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. Are you telling me you won't help him?"

"That is what I am telling you, Mrs. Oswald. I don't have any use for anybody." Which Senator Tower said that he would not help Lee--made it public. These are nice people saying this. I say the ones who are down and out are the ones that need the help. This boy was a young boy. Let's say he is not an agent. Let's say he defected to Russia. Yet he wants to come back. He deserved a helping hand. I went to 12 people. I did not beg. But I presented my case. And not a one offered to help.

Mr. RANKIN. Didn't you understand that the State Department had to try to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from other sources before they could advance the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I understand that. I am trying to tell you that I tried awfully hard, but with no success.

Mr. RANKIN. So they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, were they not?

Mrs. OSWALD. It could be, yes. It could be.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that makes him an agent, just because they asked you----

Mrs. OSWALD. I think--well, as you say, they would probably help anyone. And then again, because he is married to a Russian girl, and because all these documents and everything are handled through the U.S. Embassy. And because of my trip to Washington--which was red carpet treatment. Let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at 9 o'clock and has an appointment at 11 o'clock with three big men, that is wonderful treatment.

Now, they probably would do that to anybody. I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. They might have done that----

Mrs. OSWALD. I haven't been that fortunate before.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated you nicely.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have told you, Mr. Rankin, they were most gracious to me. The Administration was most gracious to me.

Mr. RANKIN. I don't see why you should think that because they treated you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, maybe you don't see why. But this is my son. And this is the way I think, because I happen to know all of the other things that you don't know--the life and everything. I happen to think this. And this is my privilege to think this way. And I can almost back it up with these things.

This is a stranger to you folks. But this is a boy I have known from a child.

Mr. RANKIN. How much money do you think, he received for being an agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. You have no idea?

Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know this, and I have stated this. I have approximately 900 and some odd dollars. And I lost my job. That can be proven. I was a nurse on the 3 to 11 shift, working in a rest home, for a very wealthy woman. And it would have been at least a year, a year and a half case. She is not that bad off. She is just an invalid. She is going to live quite a while.

When I returned home from the Six Flags on Thanksgiving Day, the Deputy Sheriff at Fort Worth, Tex. went to get my pay. And the nurse, the 7 to 3:30 o'clock nurse--I went 3 to 11--and my patient cried and said that they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. That the woman at the rest home refused to have me.

Now, I was not working for the rest home. I was doing private duty. But I understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there might have been--hurt her money part. But this is our Christian way of life. The boy was accused of killing the President, with no proof. And then the mother loses her job.

Now, that is my position. You asked me the question. But Marina has $35,000 publicly. What she has, I do not know.

Now, gentlemen, $35,000 is a lot of money in donation dribs and drabs--is a very large sum of money. I question where does that money come from. Yes, some of it could be coming from Lee's back pay. And she might have more than that. That was the amount made public--$35,000. And here is a mother without a job. And everybody knows I have no money. And my contributions are 900 and some odd dollars.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say that money that Marina has might come from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? Just speculation?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am basing all of this on speculation. Sir, if I had proof, I would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to bring all this out--if I had proof he was an agent.

Mr. RANKIN. When they asked you to contribute some money to help bring him home from Russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the government could just pay his way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But they don't want the public to know he is an agent. They want me to have all of this. They don't want the public to know. I am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. I am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the public knows. Sure, they could have given him the money to come home.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you trying to get money now? I don't understand what you mean by that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think, Mr. Rankin, you asked me the question that if he was an agent, that the Government would have given him the money to come home without any trouble. I say just the opposite. That it was a very good point. If he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to get the money to come home.

Remember, I am under the impression he is coming home with this Russian girl in order to continue his work. So he cannot be given the money immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to someone. Lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. So then they have an excuse to loan him the money.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever learn that he was getting money from the Red Cross in addition to his pay--that is the Russian or Soviet Red Cross, when he was over there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know what he did with that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know anything about that. The Red Cross from here?

Mr. RANKIN. The Soviet Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I know nothing about that.

Mr. RANKIN. You didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount equal to the pay he received from his job. He got that from the Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't follow you. I do not know. I don't understand.

Mr. RANKIN. He got so much a month from his job in the electronics factory. You understood that.

Mrs. OSWALD. In Russia?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. He was not in an electronics factory. I thought he was working in a radio factory. All right, fine.

Mr. RANKIN. And then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Did you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Now, explain to me--when you say the Red Cross of the Soviet Union. Is that our American Red Cross in the Soviet Union, or this is part of the Russian Red Cross?

Mr. RANKIN. This is part of the Russian Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. It is not any part of the American Red Cross.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. Their Red Cross is somewhat different than ours, I understand, because the Government has so much to do with activity there that the Red Cross is closely associated with the Government itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported by the public.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I did not know that.

Now, one other thing pertaining to this. When Marina and Lee returned from Russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, Robert's home, and I came in from the job in the country to see them, I said--up until this time, gentlemen, I thought Russians were peasant-looking people, like the public. And I said, "Lee, she doesn't look Russian at all. She looks American." He said, "Of course, mother, that is why I married her, is because she looks American." In front of my daughter-in-law and Robert. He bragged that she looked like an American girl. And there is all little things of that sort.

As I say, I cannot remember everything in my life, because I am going--this is way back--in a few hours time, Mr. Rankin. But there is many, many things that come up.

Mr. RANKIN. How does that show that he was an agent at that time. I don't understand that.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't either. But I am telling you the expressions. He is making a point. And what I was going to make a point--Lee loved his work, and Lee loved the Marines. Lee loved the Marines, Mr. Rankin. Even coming back--he was a military man. And that has also been stated in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. I think District Attorney Wade remarked something of that order. People have noticed that.

Mr. RANKIN. What made you think he loved the Marines? Was there something he did when he came back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He loved the Marines because his brother was a Marine, for one thing. And John Edward--that is his career--14 years. My brother was in the Navy. His father was a veteran. We are a servicemen family. And I know Lee loved the Marines. I told you how he read the manual before he left. And on leaves, coming home, Lee would brag. He even said when he came home from Japan, "mother, my stay in Japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $2,000."

Now, Lee, I know also, was in the Air Force of the Marines, and he went to Biloxi, Miss., for schooling. Lee has had quite a bit of schooling. And Lee spoke Russian equivalent to 1 year when he defected to Russia. I have that on his application from the Albert Schweitzer College. And Lee spoke and wrote Russian fluently when he went to Russia. So Lee learns Russian in the Marines.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever talk about reenlisting into the Marines after he returned?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, when Lee returned he was with me 3 days, and then, of course, he went over to visit Robert's house. So actually we didn't talk. I was trying to find a home. And I didn't think he would go. I was hoping that Lee would not go on the ship and work. I was hoping he would stay home. We were interrupted before. When he said to me about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export business, I started to tell you I agreed with him. And this is how you have to do--particularly when you are a woman. A father could tell the man, "You are not going to do this." But I went along with that. And then the next day I said, "Lee, why don't you stay," and I went into that--"until I settle my claim, and I can babysit and we can get along." He said, "No, my mind is made up. If I stay, we will both be in these circumstances." So on the third day--I knew he wanted to do this, but I didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. But on the third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "Mother, I am off." So since his mind was made up, I told him goodby.

Mr. RANKIN. He said nothing about reenlisting in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, the three days he was home. That was the conversation, about him going on a ship. I saw his passport. And his passport was stamped "import and export" on his passport.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it say anything about Soviet Russia on it?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. What I am saying is that I saw the passport with big writing "export and import." I think it was blue. I did not read the passport, because Lee was there, but I happened to see the passport, "export and import" stamped.

Whether he had another passport, I do not know. I didn't ask. I am saying this--and God knows I am telling you the truth. I am just this type person. It is because of my life.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he had this passport?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into that--the application?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, the first that I knew--no, I am wrong. It is not the first I knew. I had received a letter from Lee while in the Marines before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the Albert Schweitzer College. And that letter was in the sea bag that I told you about, that I do not have.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give us the date of that letter?

Mrs. OSWALD. The other letter would have been--let's see. Lee was told in July about my trouble. And the other letter I would say would be about May or June. This is March 22. I received this in care of Lee. And you see, sir, I have a lot of addresses, because I am now living in these homes.

Mr. DULLES. '57 or '58?

Mrs. OSWALD. 1960.

Let's see now. Then I heard from the State Department in 1961.

"Due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. The first lecture will be held on Tuesday afternoon 16.00 o'clock, April 19, instead of taking place on the 21st with the arrival day on the 20th. It will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of Monday, the 18th, or before noon on April 19th. This change, however, makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of July 2. We hope that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your travel plan. Should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier date we, of course, understand the difficulty. In the latter case, please drop us a line."

So that is how I knew that Lee--I opened his mail. I didn't know whether my son was living or dead, sir. And that is how I knew--I won't go into all this. He made a deposit. I have all of this for you.

He made a deposit. And this is my copies to them.

Now, one thing I have forgotten.

While at the State Department, the State Department told me that Lee had gone to Finland before Russia. And I did not know that.

Now, Lee had applied at a college in Finland, evidently, because on the application it states such a fact. I did not know, because the paper just said he arrived in Russia--until I went to the State Department.

So what I am trying to say--I may be forgetting a lot of important things, because I am just now remembering what the State Department told me.

I don't think I am forgetting too much.

But, after all, I am going through a whole life, and it is very hard.

This is Lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. This is the only application there is. So this is something new for you gentlemen. I am not going to go through it all, because you have a copy. But I am going to show you the thinking of this young man.

"Special interests: Religious, vocational, literary, sports, and hobbies. Philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, stamp collecting"--Lee had a stamp collecting book. "Nature of private reading: Jack London, Darwin, Norman Vincent Peale, scientific books, philosophy, and so on."

Representative FORD. That is an application to where?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is an original application for the Albert Schweitzer School.

"Active part taken in organizations. Student body movement in school for control of juvenile delinquency, member YMcA, and AYA association."

I don't know what that is.

Mr. RANKIN. Where did you get this copy?

Mrs. OSWALD. I had contacted Congressman Jim Wright, that has helped me--helped me to locate Lee through the State Department. But Mr. Jim Wright was not successful.

I was successful because of my trip to Washington, as you know.

And from the trip to Washington, I went to the building where Mr. Jim Wright worked, and I went in to tell the secretary about the trip to Washington. And that I had heard from Lee.

Well, I had information here that Lee had paid a deposit. So I had written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the deposit, since he didn't show up. But I did not get an answer.

So Mr. Wright's secretary said that, "Mrs. Oswald, I will write and see what we can do."

So she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to Jim Wright's office. And that is how I got the application.

Mr. DOYLE. They may be interested in knowing where the college is.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is in Switzerland. Albert Schweitzer College, Chur Walden, Graubuenen, Switzerland. "Application Form. High School. Completed high school by correspondence."

I have that. His original correspondence in the service--completed high school.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that part of his Marine work--he finished high school that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

"January '58, Passing 65 on scale of 100 B plus. College: None."

And then I read his books.

Now, we go down to here.

"Vocational Interests if decided upon: To be a short story writer on contemporary American life."

Now, "General statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the Albert Schweitzer College: In order to acquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my knowledge of German, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral atmosphere."

This is very good thinking, gentlemen. We are getting a picture now of the boy which has been not told in the paper.

I have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. The first press conference was about 80 members there, from foreign lands and everything. Nothing was printed. Then I had a second press conference with 16 men and I said, "Now, I am tired of the things that are being said about my family, myself, and Lee. We are not perfect. But I know there is some good things. And I have read a particular statement that has not been printed. Let's see if one of you has the courage to print it."

There was 16 there. That did not come out. I had a third conference, and I said the same thing and quoted this. That was not made public in the paper.

I hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now.

Mr. RANKIN. You notice the next paragraph, about his plans?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, "Plans to be pursued after the period at Albert Schweitzer College: To attend the short summer course of the University of Turku, Turku, Finland."

Now, I have a brochure. This I cannot understand--from this college, dated 1960. I have this for you, Mr. Rankin--dated 1960.

Lee is in Russia.

And the men in the State Department told me he went to Finland before Russia. But this is dated 1960. I have it for you.

But I don't understand that.

"Then to return to America and pursue my chosen vocation."

Mr. RANKIN. I want to ask you about that. Do you think he meant this at the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. I am saying--and I am going to stick to my story--that Lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. I cannot make it any stronger. I don't know, sir. The boy is gone, and I didn't hear from his own lips.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that he decided to defect after this application, then?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know, sir, because I have not had this from the boy. I am speculating. But I have a lot of documents to sustain my speculation.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether he is an agent by this.

Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want proof. I am becoming a little discouraged about this, because I keep telling you--I did not have proof, sir. But I am giving you documents leading to it.

Mr. RANKIN. All I am trying to find out is what you have. You are giving us that. I am also trying to find out whatever proof you have about these various things that we can rely on.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I am going to state once and for all, because it upsets me very much emotionally. And I have stated before, I do not have proof, sir. I do not have proof of an agent. I do not have proof my son is innocent. I do not have proof.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't have any proof of a conspiracy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of anything. It is just as I feel, like the Dallas police do not have proof my son shot President Kennedy. If they have anything, it is circumstantial evidence. I have as much circumstantial evidence here that Lee was an agent as the Dallas police have that he shot President Kennedy.

"Familiarity with foreign languages, if any. Russian equal in fluency to about 1 year's education or schooling. I also speak a very little German. General condition of health: Good. Have you ever had any serious illness or nervous disturbances: No."

Mr. RANKIN. Is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

I want to get to that psychiatric. There will be a story there.

"Does such a condition still exist: No."

I don't understand this--do you?

"General condition of health: Good. Have you had a serious illness or nervous disturbance, no. If so, explain."

Then he has a dash.

"Are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? No."

And then he gives as references--you have this, so I won't go into it.

A chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record?

Mr. RANKIN. No, we can offer this.

Did you know any of those people that he showed as references?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I do not. And that is dated the 3d, 4th, '59. And this is another application form from the Albert Schweitzer College.

"I hereby apply to attend the student course from April 12, 1960 to June 27, 1960. Surname: Oswald. Christian name: Lee Harvey. Mr. Age, 20. Mother tongue: English. Other language you know: Russian. Equal in fluency to 1 year of schooling. Occupation: Student. Nationality: American. Exact address: McAF, MACS-9, Santa Ana, California, USA. Remarks: Please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so I can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of purpose. Thank you. Lee Harvey Oswald."

Well, he did, and I have this here, make a deposit of $25, which the school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not appearing.

Gentlemen, it is 10 minutes to five, I believe I had a full day. I worked last night on the papers. I came early to have copies made.

This was a complete story, I believe, and I have at least three other complete stories. And I have a story of my life that I believe from newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the type person I am. But according to the newspaper--of course, really nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular instance. That I can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you said you had three more stories. Just name them. Name what stories they are, so we will know what they are.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

It would be Lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric treatment in New York, that I want to tell you about.

The CHAIRMAN. Up to 16?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went into that.

And then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, Mr. Rankin, in a letter.

The third was Lee as an agent, which I have gone into.

The CHAIRMAN. Lee what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee being an agent.

But I have really gone into that.

The CHAIRMAN. So really, there are only two more?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, my life and Lee's life.

Now, I would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it. And I will not comment on it. I want you to study it thoroughly, use a magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it.

Now, this is out of the Post Magazine.

There is another picture that I would like the Commission to get which, is in the Memorial Issue of President Kennedy--I think it is the Post. I will get that information for you.

Mr. DOYLE. Would you like to advise the Commission generally what you believe they will find out from this?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would rather not comment on that at this particular moment. I submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to study it. I have two. You may have that one for the record.

Mr. DULLES. What does this purport to be of?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a picture of the book depository the day of the assassination of President Kennedy. And there are people in the picture.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I would rather you see it yourself. I see what I see.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you see?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, all right.

I see Marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be Marina.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you show us, please?

Mrs. OSWALD. And, again, I am saying--I cannot be sure this is the picture. But this right here. This girl with this baby could possibly be Marina and June.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is the girl----

Mrs. OSWALD. This girl holding the baby.

Mr. RANKIN. Right next to the door?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, right next to the door. In back of her is the hat of a man. I have started this. I will continue.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 203, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, may I offer this?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 203.

And that is the photograph that you were just referring to, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. And you pointed out the girl on the left column----

Mrs. OSWALD. Of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 203 was received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. Do we know the time this was taken?

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the time this was taken?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This, I understand, was when President Kennedy was shot. He is supposed to be holding his throat here. And this is the car. This is right after he passed the book depository, when he is supposed to have been shot.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Wednesday, February 12, 1964

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 12, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Representative Hale Boggs and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; and John F. Doyle, attorney for Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

We will proceed to the hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to us this morning before we start the questioning?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I meant to yesterday morning. I have two or three things that are worrying me.

Mr. Rankin, on Monday, when I testified that I had not been questioned officially, you told me that I had. And if I remember correctly, sir, you said that there was 28 pages of testimony, or was it 8 pages?

Mr. RANKIN. Twenty-eight, I think.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Doyle, as my attorney--I am very concerned about that, because I want to know--if it is my testimony--because the little while--the testimony that I gave to the FBI when I entered the courthouse was approximately about 10 minutes. They immediately left to investigate. They did not talk to me again, sir.

And then the only other testimony that I gave on tape was the starting of Lee's defection at the Six Flags Inn, which I would say ran approximately 10 or 15 minutes. And that is the only time I have testified.

Now, if you have all this other testimony from me, I don't think it is fair, because I should know what I am supposed to have said. I need to know what I am supposed to have said.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and I will see that you can. We won't delay the proceeding this morning. But you may see it before you leave the building.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--it is very important to know that.

Thank you, Justice Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we furnish a clean photostatic copy to Mr. Doyle?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that will be satisfactory. You may do that, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I certainly need to know what I am supposed to have said.

There is an FBI agent by the name of Mr. John Fain. I will ask you, Mr. Rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about Mr. John Fain?

Mr. RANKIN. I know of Mr. John Fain as one of the agents that had some interviews with your son.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Mr. John Fain is the agent that I called upon myself after Lee's defection. I read where the Secret Service were investigating the family background, and I mistook it for the FBI. So I called the FBI and he came to my home. And he is the agent who recommended me to talk to Jim Wright and Sam Rayburn as a friend, and to write the letters.

Now, the one point I am going to bring out is this. When Lee returned from Russia and was at Robert's home, Mr. Fain--in the meantime he had come over to Robert and talked to him several times, and to me, supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. I do not know this. But he came to Robert's home and said to Lee--my daughter-in-law is a witness there--"Lee, I am not on the case, but I would like you voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me your story, because I am interested in your case. Your mother was the one who contacted me. And I have been to see Robert. And I am quite interested in a young boy going to Russia. And you must have a story."

So Lee voluntarily went with Mr. Fain to the FBI office.

Then when Lee returned, his remark was "Well, he didn't believe me. He wanted me to take a lie detector test, which I refused."

Now, Mr. John Fain may have the story we are looking for, you see--because Lee went and gave the story.

And I want to make sure you know where he is now.

I have information from Senator Mike Monroney that in March--I am ahead of my story.

The FBI agents now in Fort Worth have told me they do not know Mr. John Fain. I said I happen to know that is his name.

"Well, Mrs. Oswald, I worked in this office 9 years, and there has never been such a person as Mr. John Fain."

So I have investigated. And Senator Mike Monroney gave this information. He did work in the Fort Worth office from March 1949 to October 1962, and then he retired in January 15, 1963. He is not a man to retire as far as age, as far as I am concerned. I don't think Mr. John Fain is that old.

The CHAIRMAN. We will check that out.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have his last address in Houston, if you don't have it.

All right. Fine.

Now, one thing about Lee being an agent I read.

The neighbors that were interviewed in Fort Worth, Tex., by the FBI--this is from newspaper accounts--said that Lee always walked a few feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. I am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that Lee would walk ahead to protect his wife.

That is my reasoning--as an agent.

The letter that is missing--and Mr. Doyle can verify this--the first letter to Lee is missing, that Lee wrote to me, rather, from Russia. And this letter stated--and it seemed to me, Mr. Rankin, I have seen it in one of the magazines--as I have stated I have sold several of Lee's letters. And maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, I don't know.

But his first letter, he told me not to send him any money.

"I repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay me back. You could send reading matter. I am lonesome to read. Also, send a can of Rise Shaving Cream, a Gillette Razor," and there was a book he wanted to read, I believe it was 1984.

Mr. RANKIN. What date was this you sent that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is a letter Lee sent to me that is missing--the first letter that Lee sent to me. And why I sent the money--because I had used his income tax return, which was $33, because Lee was lost--and I was destitute, and I knew Lee would never prosecute his mother for using his money, because Lee would help me.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean that was a refund.

Mrs. OSWALD. A refund. And I got the refund and used it, sir. And I also used Lee's first check that came from the Marines. And I had no way of knowing where Lee was. And I used it. And so I offered to pay Lee back. And this letter has been printed. I have seen it. But I do not have it. So that is very important.

Mr. DOYLE. As you had mentioned, you and I went through the papers that you had brought with you from your home in Texas to Washington, and we did not find such a letter among those papers.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. I have those letters laminated, and I didn't give a list, and if it was taken I don't know what became of the letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Liebeler said he had seen references to the letter.

Mrs. OSWALD. References. And I am sure it was probably one of the letters I had sold, as I told you.

Yes, sir, you are correct there.

Now, there is another thing that we have skipped.

While in Dallas 2 weeks ago I had a press conference, and I called Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Inc., 522 Browder, in Dallas.

Now, this is a printing shop, where Lee worked.

Now, this is another thing.

Mr. RANKIN. That was the photoengraving place that you talked about, wasn't it, in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Photoengraving place. I talked to Mr. Stovall. Now, Lee was employed there, he informs me, from October 12th to April 6th, and I asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a Russian--the girl had a Russian father, the grandfather, as I testified.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, he said, no. And he didn't know about that. He said--this is the part--that Lee had worked at a place prior to his place. That is not so, and I can prove it. I was on an OB case for Mrs. Rosenthal. We will have to get a 1962 calendar. October 12th, or thereabouts, is when I was released from this OB case. And this was the Sunday that I asked to get off an hour or two, and went to Lee's house, and saw this couple.

Mr. RANKIN. October 12th was a Friday.

Mrs. OSWALD. Was a Friday. All right.

Now, so, let's see where I am.

This woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. I tried and tried, and told her how important it was. It was a Friday. So then it would have to be, then, Mr. Rankin, the week before--the Sunday of the week before then.

Mr. RANKIN. That would be October 7, 1962.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, because it is very important.

He claimed that Lee worked another place first.

Now, do you know if Lee----

The CHAIRMAN. Let's don't--we will go into those things.

Mrs. OSWALD. But if you don't know, Chief Justice Warren, how will you go into it?

The CHAIRMAN. Please don't turn this into examining the Commission. We will go into those things very thoroughly.

Just go ahead with your story.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, this is a lie, and I want to know about this lie.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you have told us.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have not finished, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. But don't question the Commission. That is the only thing I am asking you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I don't know about questioning.

Mr. DOYLE. I think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go ahead and give the Commission all the information you have.

Mrs. OSWALD.. Well, that is what I think I am doing. If I am doing it a wrong way, you will have to understand. I am a layman. I am the mother of this accused boy. I understand that is what the Commission is for, to get all information possible to come to a conclusion.

And if I have found out that my date of employment is the date that Lee was employed in Dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, I think that is very important information.

The CHAIRMAN. We will check on that.

Go right ahead with your own story.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe I should apologize for taking up so much of the Commission's time, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Go right ahead with the business, and when you give the Commission the facts, then the Commission will take on from there in their own judgment.

Mr. RANKIN.. Mr. Doyle, while she is taking a moment, I will hand you a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on November 25, 1963, an interview by J. M. Howard.

Mr. DOYLE.. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, one thing we have not covered was Lee's discharge.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just a minute?

Is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a copy of which was to be given to Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. RANKIN. That is right, that is the one requested.

The CHAIRMAN. And the one you were speaking of----

Mr. RANKIN. As a 28-page document.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes--all right.

Now, you may continue, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.

This is Lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where I come in.

The first envelope was addressed to Lee Harvey Oswald, airmail. And Lee was in Russia, as we know. We have the proof. And you have all of the copies of this, I am sure.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. And this you do not have. You have a copy now, but you do not have the story, Mr. Rankin.

It states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for discharge, reason of unfitness.

Well. I wrote to the U.S. Marine Corps--now, where is the copy of my letter?

I talked to a commandant at the Marine Corps and read this to him. And he advised me how to write to the Marine Corps, the official of the Marine Corps. And that is a copy of the letter.

I asked--well, he will get me the letter, I am sure.

So then I will read the answer to my letter.

Is that satisfactory?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. Liebeler is going to get the copy that he has.

Now, can you tell the Commission when you first learned about this matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. It would be on the envelope, sir. The envelope is mailed, Glenview, April 29, Illinois. But, as you see, it had gone to a lot of addresses, because I had moved around quite a bit. So we would have to say I got it some time later than the original.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, does this involve the question of the undesirable discharge?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. RANKIN. And did you ever write to Secretary Connally about that, later Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I never did write to him.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. Will you tell us what happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. I wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter.

And this is the answer to the letter.

I won't read it all, because you have a copy. But I have a few points to make here.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall who told you that--the name of the man?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was the Marine Base in Fort Worth, Tex., one of the captains there.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Told me who to write to.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't remember the name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. The letter to Commandant, Marine Air Reserve, 50 JTMGR, 26 April 1962, "to your son was prompted by his request for Soviet citizenship. An investigation concerning this matter has been conducted by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. Your son, of course, has the right to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would assist the board in reaching its decision. The letter of 26 April 1960 informed him of his rights. In view of the fact that he has not been informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current address, and that he has left the United States without permission, it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at this headquarters is sufficient notification. A letter will be sent by certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. Should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward them to this headquarters. It is regretted that action of this nature must be taken in your son's case. M. G. Letscher, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps, Administrative Office, Aviation Class 3, Reserve Section."

Now, my letter is important.

Now, this was addressed to me. This is what I want the Commission to know. This was addressed to Lee, the original. Then I wrote in behalf of my son, and this was addressed to me.

Then I received a letter addressed to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

By now, I am corresponding with these people, and I ask for--I need my letter. And I ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and said that I would act in behalf of my son, because I have pertinent information to that fact.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will ask the reporter to mark this as the next number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 204, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. This is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable discharge.

Mrs. Oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the letter I just read. That is the back of the envelope. And this letter.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a very poor copy.

Mrs. OSWALD. Is this the letter we taped?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't believe so, no.

Mrs. OSWALD. I know we taped one, because we could not copy it.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you read it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. "I desire to inform"----

Mr. RANKIN. That is your letter of April 10, 1960?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And who did you send it to?

Mr. LIEBELER. May I say this, Mr. Rankin: We did tape that, and I do have a transcription of it here.

Mrs. OSWALD. "I ask for a stay of action, and I will be willing to act in his behalf."

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will hand you what I am asking the reporter to mark as Exhibit 205.

I ask you if Exhibit 205 is a correct transcription of your letter.

MRS. OSWALD. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 205, for identification.)

Mrs. OSWALD. "I am writing you on behalf of my son. He is out of the country at present, and since I have no contact with him I wish to request a stay of action concerning his discharge. Also, I desire to be informed of the charges against him. Please state reasons for such discharge. After hearing from you, I will be willing to act in his behalf."

So then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you examine the rest of Exhibit 204 and state whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter that you know about?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me, that is right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And those photostatic copies in Exhibit 204 are all copies of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibits 204 and 205.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted, with those numbers.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 204 and 205 were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I believe, Chief Justice Warren, I am giving information that this Commission did not have before. I do not think they had this return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with me, as Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in Lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country.

I would like to know why.

That is another reason why I think that Lee was probably an agent.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by that, Mrs. Oswald? Could you explain that a little more?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I do not think they wanted me to have the dishonorable discharge.

Again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not have the proof of the dishonorable discharge.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him for legal reasons?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, because, legally--I am glad you brought up the point, Mr. Rankin.

Your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. And I wrote, as I read the copy, that I would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and I was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf because I had pertinent information. And they ignored my letter and sent this--yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. They may have felt you had not been given authority to act.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, what they may feel and what they should do--I am saying I am an American citizen, and I have some rights. And when I want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or dead, then I should act in behalf, I should not get a return.

I am glad you are bringing these points up. My rights have been invaded and my son's.

I make that statement for the record.

Now, we shall go to Lee's childhood.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, Chief Justice Warren, I have pictures of my son that Mr. Jenner would like this Commission to have, because it shows Lee at age 15 and 16, and myself, which was supposed to be a life of psychiatric treatment. And I am more than happy--I volunteered to help my country in every way possible--to let the Commission have everything that I have. But you must understand that these are very valuable pictures, sir. I am having people wanting rights to a book, and these pictures are very, very valuable to me. And I would not want any of these pictures lost. Financially they are valuable, and to my story, sir. And they are the only pictures in existence.

I have sold a few pictures in order to live.

But the way I have done it--the photographer had this picture in particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to me back in my hand. I cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, sir. It is my story that some day I hope to write.

So I was told that if I continue with the life history of Lee as a child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for the record.

Am I correct, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. That is our way of proceeding, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. So now when I show the pictures, will you personally give me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used?

The CHAIRMAN. No, I cannot do that. The Commission cannot do it. If you have something that you consider your personal property, that you do not want to give to the Commission, you may withhold it.

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not say, sir, I did not want to give it to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. I do not believe they bear directly on the matter we are investigating. They might be helpful. They might not be helpful. But you may have the choice of determining whether you want to introduce them or not.

But if you do introduce them, the Commission cannot put any limitation upon the use that it might make of them.

Now, I don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute them or anything of that kind. But the Commission cannot limit itself in the reception of its evidence. It must have the power to do with it whatever is necessary to develop the facts.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I give you that power. And I voluntarily would like for you to have everything I have, including pictures. But I just wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any way. For some reason or other--I am not putting it into words--but these are my personal pictures. And I want the Commission to have them. And it is pertinent to the story, I understand, Mr. Doyle, is that correct--because it shows Lee smiling, and his life and my life in New Orleans, which, I understand that the Commission is very interested in.

Am I not correct, Mr. Doyle?

Mr. DOYLE. Mrs. Oswald, as the situation has developed here, the introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in the file. The Commission itself has stated that it can give you no assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers.

I would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the investigation and the purposes of the Commission as established by the Executive order.

But they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, that you retain the pictures yourself.

The choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present the pictures to the Commission in the course of your testimony, they will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. Their purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the Commission. But the Commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those circumstances.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, being a layman, I understand, I think, what you are telling me, in a way. But, on the other hand, being a layman, I feel actually I have no choice.

You have to understand I am not an attorney.

Mr. DOYLE. But you do have a choice, because you are not here under subpena. Your materials have not been subpenaed. The Commission has advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit to do. So there is no force, no legal force at all. This is absolutely up to you.

The only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you no assurance or guarantee as to what use the Commission will make of them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is required by the Executive order and the purposes of their investigation.

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand. And that is why I wanted the Commission to have all pictures that I have.

Now, may I request something? I don't think it is presumptuous of me. Maybe it is.

Could I sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have the pictures?

I am afraid that they may get lost.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mrs. Oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, moneywise, to you as you think they are, then I would suggest to you that you retain them yourself. We, of course, would be interested to see them, and they might be helpful--I don't know, because I don't know what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in.

But as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. Those documents are not under subpena. They belong to you. They are in your possession. I have not seen them. You are at liberty to use them in your testimony or not, as you please.

But if you do, the Commission cannot put any limitations on the use that it will make of them.

Mrs. OSWALD. Even though you have stated, Chief Justice Warren, just now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the Commission--and yet I have information from Mr. Jenner that they are valuable to the Commission, because they pertain to Lee's life at age 13 to age 16.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I say they might be. I don't know. I have never seen them.

But the choice is with you, Mrs. Oswald. You may do just as you please. If you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of the Commission, you may do so.

But the Commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want the Commission to have this.

Moneywise, it is more important for the Commission to know this boy's life and my life--but also I need to protect myself financially, because I am a widow, and do not have the money. And this will mean--these are valuable pictures.

I am not questioning the integrity of this Commission or the loyalty. What I am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, and then----

The CHAIRMAN. Not those that you have given to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--but with another----

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think, Mrs. Oswald, it would serve no purpose for us to debate the matter. I have tried to tell you very frankly, and your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a free choice to do just as you please. And we will abide by that choice that you may make.

Mrs. OSWALD. May I confer with my lawyer for about 10 minutes?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will take a recess, and you may talk to him.

(Brief recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. Come to order, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. Last night, Mr. Rankin, I read Lee working at one place after Tujaque. I do not know the name, sir. I think he worked there just a few days. He had the keys to the office. And, as I returned home from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of the apartment, and said that Lee was discharged, and that Lee had the keys to the office, and just then Lee walked up and gave this young man the keys.

Now, I do not know the name of the place. And I believe he just worked there, sir, a few days.

I read that afterwards.

If you will refresh me, I will give you any information I have. But it is hard for me to think of everything.

I believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed.

I have decided--and maybe I am wrong, because to me money is only good as to its use. However, there have been so many things since the assassination that has not been in my favor, I believe that I am going to keep my personal pictures.

The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.

Mrs. OSWALD. If at any time in the future that you would like to have these pictures, I will be more than happy to have copies made and give them to the Commission.

There is another matter, Mr. Rankin, that is very important, that you asked me--Governor Connally's letter.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I had read this at the press conference. A letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Connally, Secretary of the Navy. This is just written from the newspaper article.

"I have been in the Soviet Union with the full sanction of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow." He asked the Navy Department to take the necessary steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide U.S. citizen, an ex-serviceman."

Now, I do not consider this a threat, because I, myself, if I had a dishonorable discharge, and I was a good marine for 3 years, and I felt like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, I would make such a statement, because I am a very definite person, as you know by now. I have been testifying for 3 days. And my son is of the same nature. He loved the Marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his country 3 years. And it was a stigma to me and his children, and he wanted to right the wrong.

So I do not consider this a threat.

He went to Austin. There was an article in the paper--trying to get this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of Lee, said he was very polite.

This is not a threat.

This is just how Lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, newspaper talk, and so on and so forth.

I would state this emphatically more maybe than Lee did, if I had a dishonorable discharge, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything against Governor Connally?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

But here is what I have written down. The day at Robert's house, when I came in from the country, I, myself, gave Lee the copy--we had many copies--you showed me the copy--I gave him the copy and told him--I had written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but I did not send any papers, because I didn't want the Russians to know.

But when I came, I had a scrapbook, and I gave him a copy, Mr. Rankin, of the reason for dishonorable discharge. He says "Don't worry about it, mother. I can fix that. It is no problem."

So then the boy tried to fix it. And this is not a threat. My son is of this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. That I know. I would do the same. And I will read it now to Governor Connally: "I shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and my now dead son."

I expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake.

I have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so I will employ all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald. I intended to do that. That is my life's work.

I have the name of the man I talked to.

Chief Justice Warren--I will start from Lee as baby, before I get to this.

Lee was born October 18, 1939, in New Orleans, La. His mother, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, his father's name was Robert Edward Lee, he was named after General Lee. The family's name is Harvey--his grandmother's name was Harvey. And so he was named Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee was born 2 months after the death of his father, who died from a heart attack, coronary thrombosis.

Lee was a very happy baby.

I stayed home with the children as long as I could, because I believe that a mother should be home with her children.

I don't want to get into my story, though.

Lee had a normal life as far as I, his mother, is concerned. He had a bicycle, he had everything that other children had.

Lee has wisdom without education. From a very small child--I have said this before, sir, and I have publicly stated this in 1959--Lee seemed to know the answers to things without schooling. That type child, in a way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced.

Lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the stars. He was reading astrology. Lee knew about any and every animal there was. He studied animals. All of their feeding habits, sleeping habits. He could converse--and that is why he was at the Bronx Zoo when he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals.

Lee played Monopoly. Lee played chess. Lee had a stamp collection, and even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir.

And Lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. At age 9 he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said, "Mother, Queen Elizabeth's baby has been born."

He broke the rule to let me know that Queen Elizabeth's baby had been born. Nine years old. That was important to him. He liked things of that sort.

He loved comics, read comic books. He loved television programs. But most of all he loved the news on radio and television. If he was in the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. That was important.

And I have stated in 1959, which is in print, that Lee loved maps. Lee would study maps, sir. And he could tell you the distance from here and there. And when he was home on leave, I was amazed. Something was said about an airplane trip. Immediately he knew how many miles in the air that that plane took.

Lee read very, very important things. And any and everything he could do.

Yet he played Monopoly, played baseball.

He belonged to the "Y." He used to go swimming. He would come by work with his head wet, and I would say, "Hurry home, honey, you are going to catch cold."

And I considered that, sir, a very normal life.

I am probably forgetting some things.

So then Robert joined the Marines in 1956--am I correct--that Robert joined the Marines?

No, Robert joined the Marines in 1952. We are now in Fort Worth, Tex., until 1952.

So then I decided, since I was working, I did not want Lee to be alone. Up until this time, sir, he had a brother. So I sold my home at 7400 Ewing Street, and went to New York City, not as a venture, but because my older son, John Edward Pic, lived in New York, and had lived in New York for years. He was in the Coast Guard, as a military man. He has now been in the service 14 years, and at that time it would have been approximately 8 or 9 years--I may be off because that is approximately. So he was stationed in New York. So I had no problem of selling my home and going there, thinking that John Edward would leave New York.

But the main thing was to be where I had family. And I moved to New York for that reason.

Mr. RANKIN. About what date was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was exactly August 1952, because I wanted to get there in time for Lee's schooling. And if I am not mistaken, Robert joined the Marines in July of 1952. And that was my reason for going.

I immediately enrolled Lee in a Lutheran school, because Lee was not confirmed--he was baptized in the Lutheran faith, but because of moving around--I had married Mr. Ekdahl in this period and so on, Lee was not confirmed.

I enrolled him in the Lutheran school which took him approximately an hour or longer by subway to get there. It was quite a distance. That is when we first arrived in New York.

I believe that Lee was in that school a very short time, 2 or 3 weeks, because at this time I was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. And we were not welcome, sir. We were welcome for a few days. But then we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her, and her mother had left to go visit a sister. So Lee and I could come to visit. But we were not going to live with John and his wife.

So we just stayed there a short time.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any time that you recall that there was a threat of Lee Oswald against Mrs. Pic with a knife or anything like that?

Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I am glad you said that.

My daughter-in-law was very upset. The very first time we went there--I stated before, and I am glad I said that--that we were not welcome. And immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our foot in the house. And I had made it plain to John Edward that I was going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get located.

My daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on before I got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit a sister so I could come, John Edward's mother. I had never met my daughter-in-law. She didn't like me, and she didn't like Lee.

So she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she showed her displeasure.

And she is a very--not, I would say so much an emotional person--but this girl is a New Yorker who was brought up in this particular neighborhood, which I believe is a poor section of New York.

The mother had lived in this home all her life. And this girl cursed like a trooper. She is--you cannot express it, Mr. Rankin--but not of a character of a high caliber.

At this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or out of New York. And Lee loved the little baby. And he played with the baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected.

We were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. So there was, I think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket knife, a child's knife, that Lee had. So she hit Lee. So Lee had the knife--now, I remember this distinctly, because I remember how awful I thought Marjory was about this. Lee had the knife in his hand. He was whittling, because John Edward whittled ships and taught Lee to whittle ships. He puts them in the glass, you know. And he was whittling when this incident occurred. And that is what it occurred about, because there was scraps of the wood on the floor.

So when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. So she made the statement to my son that we had to leave, that Lee tried to use a knife on her.

Now, I say that is not true, gentlemen. You can be provoked into something. And because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the knife in his hand, they struggled.

He did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife.

But it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. It was a little knife.

So I will explain it that way, sir.

So immediately then I started to look for a place.

I did find a place, I think, off the Concourse. I do not remember the street.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in the Bronx?

Mrs. OSWALD. Off the Concourse, in the Bronx. And it was a basement apartment.

I had shipped some of my furniture. It was in a storehouse at this time. So I got it out and put it in this basement.

Lee had his own single bed. It was a one--one great big, big room. But we had the kitchen--regular New York type style--the kitchen and the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room apartment. And there was a single bed that Lee slept on, and I slept on the studio couch.

Then Lee went to school.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that Public School 117?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have that information here.

Went to school in the neighborhood, Public School 117, which is a junior high school in the Bronx. It states here he attended 15 of 47 days. This is the place we were living that Lee was picked up by the truant officer in the Bronx Zoo.

I was informed of this at work, and I had to appear before a board, which I did.

Lee went back to school.

Then he was picked up again in the Bronx Zoo. And I had to appear before a board committee again.

Then the third time that Lee was picked up, we were--I never did get a subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at Children's Court. But I never--how I got the notice to appear at Children's Court--I am at a loss, sir.

But I did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. I did not know. I did not think it was anything serious, because the Texas laws are not like the New York laws. In New York, if you are out of school one day you go to Children's Court. In Texas the children stay out of school for months at a time.

Lee had never done this. So I appeared with my son in court. There was a judge asked me if I want to be represented by court counsel. And I believe I said, yes, I believe I was represented by the court counsel at this particular time. And within a few minutes time--because there were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children, and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here, a half hour, to discuss the case. It was done immediately.

My child was taken from me in the courtroom.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he been out of school quite a bit?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. At this time, he had not been out of school quite a bit.

So then I was given a slip of paper--no, I am sorry. I was told where to go, where Lee was, which was another office.

They took Lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably. Then I went into another office and here was Lee. Lee was wearing his brother's Marine ring, just an ornament ring. They gave me Lee's ring and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that Lee was going to be at this home, which I think the name was the Warwick Home for Boys. And gave me a slip of paper and told me when I could visit Lee.

And that was all I knew at this particular time.

The child was immediately taken, and I was told to visit the child.

Now, I believe it was--this home was in Brooklyn. I may have the name wrong. It was an old, old home in Brooklyn.

So I went to visit my son.

And I hope some day to rectify this, because I think conditions of this kind in our United States of America are deplorable. And I want that to go down in the record.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son?

Mrs. OSWALD. For truancy, yes, sir.

So I had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir, with Puerto Ricans and Negroes and everything, and people of my class, single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. I had packages of gum and some candy for my son. And I sat down there. And the gum wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off.

And my pocketbook was emptied. Yes, sir, and I asked why. It was because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics or anything.

So that is why I was searched.

So I was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking with their children.

And Lee came out. He started to cry. He said, "Mother, I want to get out of here. There are children in here who have killed people, and smoke. I want to get out."

So then I realized--I had not realized until I went there what kind of place we had my child in.

We don't have these kinds of places in Texas or New Orleans, sir.

Then I realized what a serious thing this was. And this is when I decided I needed an attorney.

But Lee, I think, was approximately in that home--I am not sure--5 or 6 weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that Lee was a truant, that he was out of school so long.

It is because he was in this home, sir. That accounts for a lot of the truancy.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I asked Lee.

Well, this comes in another part.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. So I left my son that day, and I think I visited him a couple of times after that. I am not quite sure.

But in the meantime, I engaged an attorney. I do not know the name of the attorney, and I wish I did.

When I told the attorney about Lee--and I have stated this at a press conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. He was indignant. I cannot quote his exact words. But what he said was that New York State picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to work on this farm for the State of New York.

Now, I may not be saying this exactly. You may have the picture of the home.

But these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, I understand. That is all I can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because I did not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened I tried to put it out of my mind.

But now I am refreshed a little on that.

So Lee was in this home 5 or 6 weeks, I believe. You probably have the record.

So then we were asked to appear to court. I went into court with this attorney. And there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and Lee was brought in, and Lee sat down by me. And I remember this distinctly, because Lee had ear trouble quite often. And I saw his ear running, and I said, "Lee, you are having an earache." And the judge heard me saying something to Lee.

He said, "What did you tell your boy, Mrs. Oswald?"

I said, "Judge, I asked him if he had an earache."

I didn't know they were going to give me the child then.

So the judge talked to Lee and asked Lee if he was going to be good, and go back to school. Lee answered, "Yes, sir." And he said to me, "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not get along." I said, "That is correct." And he suggested that Lee would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was used to instead of in New York, where we had no family then, because the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. And this judge suggested that. And the judge gave me my son, right then and there, gentlemen.

I left the courtroom with my boy. He was given to me in my custody.

Now, that is all I know of the case. The particular case.

From there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer, Mr. John Carro. Mr. Carro talked with Lee and asked Lee if he was going to go back to school.

"Yes, sir."

He reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little talk. And he said, "Lee, you are to report to me once a week for probation."

I am going to stress this.

I have been in this Commission 3 days. And you know I am very definite. So I was very definite with Mr. Carro. I did not mince my words. I said, "Mr. Carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. This is not a criminal offense. He was picked up for truancy, he has assured the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. He has promised you he would be back to school. Let's give this boy a chance, and let's see if he will go to school."

"And then, Mr. Carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him report to you."

Mr. Carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. When you don't agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it.

So from that time on Mr. Carro pestered me and Lee. Mr. Carro would call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that they were having trouble with Lee. And I went to the school and talked to the principal and she said, "Mrs. Oswald, what happened while the probation officer was here--Lee moved the chair back, and it made a little noise."

And that is what Mr. Carro reported.

In plain words, gentlemen, Mr. Carro was indignant at my attitude, because he was an official.

Mr. RANKIN. What school was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was the first school, sir.

Then I moved. I am a little confused. Just a minute.

I took Lee out of the first school because the children knew that he had been in the home, and I thought he didn't stand a chance.

So I moved to help my child again.

And I personally went with Lee to the principal and told the principal--not in front of Lee--had a talk with her--that Lee had been in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we lived, I would appreciate it. And she did help. There was a young lady in this building that we lived, in the Bronx--now we are living near the Bronx Zoo.

Mr. RANKIN. Is this the new school?

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the new school. And we are living near the Bronx Zoo, which is 100 and something street.

Mr. RANKIN. And this is Public School 44?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir--Public School 44. So I talked to the principal and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall that was Berkshire Farms?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as I knew, sir. All I knew was that he was in this home in Brooklyn. He was never committed to a farm, as far as I know, sir. He was in this home all this time. And this is where I am assuming, because I knew nothing about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is why they would have him in this home to observe him.

And, by the way, I was called one day to go to the home and a young lady talked with me. And I sensed that she was questioning me for a reason, because I had been on my own all these years, and I am a business woman. So I remembered one distinct incident. She said, "Mrs. Oswald, how strong do you believe in education?"

And I said, "I believe strongly in education, but not to an extent that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her children a college education," because I happen to know that a college education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. There are college graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. And so to me--I could never be home with my children. I had to work and leave my children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. I would have given the world if I could have been home and raised my children. And here are women, because of material things, and because they want to give their children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly love, that I myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair.

So to get education to that extent, no, sir, I do not approve of it. I think it is more important for children to come home and have someone in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college education. I am strongly for that, because of my experience.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald a good student?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have his records from all the schools in New Orleans, sir. But we are not through with New York--that will show he passed satisfactory grades.

Mr. RANKIN. How about New York? Was he a good student there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was an average student. Yes.

Now, I personally brought Lee to the school and talked to some of the teachers. And they told me that Lee was a bright boy, but that he was bored with school--there was just something there. Lee was in a sense bored with school in this sense--that Lee was an overly bright boy, studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have now, I understand, for special children of this sort.

Mr. RANKIN. But his grades were not too good during this period?

Mrs. OSWALD. They were passing grades, I would say. Now, that is what I know about the New York situation.

Now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment there. I did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. But now I am assuming naturally he did have it then. There is a report on it.

I wish to say this. I am just a practical nurse. I became a nurse because of my experiences, and I wanted to devote my life to humanity, which I have stated before. But I do know this. I work in hospitals, rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed.

Now, I think you will agree there. We are all understaffed. Every one I have ever been in. So I will say if Lee had psychiatric treatment in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could not have had a complete psychiatric examination. We do not know. I do not know if he had a complete. But I will say that according to other institutions, that this institution was also understaffed.

I am going to make one remark to Mr. Jack Ruby. He has to have five psychiatrists. Now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a 13-year-old boy.

So, then we will go to Lee's schooling in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Before you leave New York, did you ever tell anybody that you took Lee Oswald to New York so he could have mental tests at the Jacobi Hospital?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, never. My child was a normal child--and while in New York. I explained to you he had a dog with puppies. The school teachers talked well about him. He had a bicycle. There was nothing abnormal about Lee Oswald.

It has been stated also I was offered psychiatric treatment which is incorrect. This Mr. Carro I understand is a very big man. He may be supplying the files with all of this. But, sir, it is untrue.

Mr. RANKIN. Then you went to New Orleans after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Then they assigned a big brother to Lee. This is important to the story.

So this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the type person I was and my son was. And he did not see anything wrong with the child. Evidently not. Because he suggested that it might be a good idea--I had told him the way Mr. Carro was doing. Mr. Carro was pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that I would call the school and the principal would assure me everything was all right.

So he thought that it would be better if I would take the child away. And I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know exactly the charge.

So, I said, "Is it all right? They won't arrest us and bring us back?"

He said, "No, there is no extraditing"--that was his words.

So, I wrote Mr. Carro a letter explaining that I was taking--Lee and I were going to New Orleans, and Lee had cousins his age in New Orleans, and I thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. And the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave New York that it would be better for Lee. And I wrote Mr. Carro the letter, sir. I did not flee New York. I had the decency to write him a letter. And the Big Brother is the one that recommended this.

Now, that is what I know of the New York.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember the name of the Big Brother?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not know the name of the Big Brother. But from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. The Big Brother stated how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you went to New Orleans, did you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Then we went to New Orleans. And we stayed at my sister's house, 757 French Street, and immediately Lee enrolled in--let's get back to this. This is in Fort Worth, Tex. Lee attended the Ridglea West School and graduated--was promoted to junior high in 1952. In 1952 is when we went to New York. Now, we are in New Orleans.

Lee was immediately enrolled in Beauregard School in New Orleans, La., upon arriving in New Orleans. And here is his certificate of promotion to high school. And they have stated that his attendance was very good. He just missed 9 days, I think, out of the whole term, which is considered very good.

Mr. RANKIN. How was he as a student in New Orleans?

Mrs. OSWALD. C grades. He was promoted, or he wouldn't have C grades. So that is two certificates there.

Then I have another certificate. He went to--no, I would not have the certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the Warren Easton High School. And that is the school that Lee wrote the note--am I correct?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is already in evidence. He wrote and said you were going to San Diego, and it was not your note at all. He signed your name.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And then, as you know, Robert was discharged from the Marines, and Robert did not want to live in New Orleans. So there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy, who was the youngest, could be with a brother. I moved back to Fort Worth, sir, because Robert was in Fort Worth so we could be a family again. However, I moved in July, and Lee joined the Marines in October. So we were just there a few months.

Lee attended Arlington High School there. And when we came back to Fort Worth, Tex., the school did not know what to do with Lee. Lee, I think, was approximately 2 weeks entering the school. He was too far advanced from the New Orleans and New York schools, and not advanced enough--let's see if I can explain this right--according to his age. He was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. But I do know, and I have witnesses to this, that Lee could not immediately enter school. They had to have a conference, a board conference, because of Lee's curriculum from school. They didn't know which school to place him in.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with you? Did you get along well together?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Lee was a very quiet and studious boy. None of my children gave me any trouble, thank God. We have no police record, sir, or anything like that. And the children were always more or less home. And particularly Lee. Lee would go to the movies, and things like that. He was a normal boy. But when he was home, he was most happy. And I am of this disposition.

He could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that sort. And so he was quite happy in his own way.

Now, here is something very important.

While in New Orleans, in order to go to Arlington Heights school, which is one of the ritziest schools in New Orleans, all the wealthy people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--Lee wanted a two-wheel bicycle, sir, and I bought him one. So when school opened, Lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. Can you picture this. A 16-1/2-year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other children had their own cars? Just picture this. My children never did want anything, and particularly Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. How did he get along with his brothers?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his brothers. John Edward had been in the service since age 17, so it has been a number of years, other than leaves. And Robert had just finished his 3-year hitch. So you see the brothers have had nothing to do with Lee since age 13 actually--otherwise than visits. Because when Robert came back, then Lee joined the Marines.

Now, this is the U.S. Marine Corps acceptance. And it says "I am very pleased to notify you that your son, Lee Harvey Oswald, has successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and so forth. My son was a marine. And I understand a very important marine.

He was in electronics. I have read--one of the marines that was with him said when he defected to Russia they had to change the system. He must have had a real responsible position, if Lee defected to Russia, and all the systems had to be changed. I don't know if this is correct. But this man made the statement, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not know until what came out in the paper. And I have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and so forth. A lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. And if you did curse an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal. I mean we all get provoked at some particular time. I am not taking up for the boy. I don't know what happened. But I know I myself would be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that I may curse him. And I am sure it is done quite often. And I understand that Lee slashed his wrist. I find that from the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about that? How that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--otherwise than what I know in the paper. I do not know, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What about a man that was killed, that was one of his buddies in the Marines?

Did you ever know anything about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. This is the first time I have heard about that. I haven't even read that in the paper. I did not know about that. If I can help you in any way--his picture in the Marines--there are names of the men on the back. I do not know what they mean. But the names of the men are on the back of picture, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When was it that he slashed his wrist--in the Marine Corps?

Mrs. OSWALD. I understand when he was in Moscow--is that correct? I do not know otherwise from what I read in the paper. These things, how could I know.

Representative FORD. May I see that picture?

Mr. RANKIN. In the Soviet Union?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And that is why, too, it has been stated that he was possibly an agent, to show, when the Russians would not give him citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to return back to the United States, and forced the Russians to keep him there. That has been stated.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. I read that in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. And I read in the paper that it could have been an accident.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about how good a shot he was? Did he ever tell you that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Lee came home with a trophy, but it is a Marine trophy--may I have that please, I need a number. It is not on this. We have another picture. But it had Lee Harvey Oswald. But it was given not to him, but to the platoon. And he was very, very proud of it. Lee was very proud of his Marine hitch, because every time he came on leave, that is all he talked about. That I know. And I am the only one that knows this.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that trophy with regard to marksmanship?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now, Marina would have that. I gave that to Lee and Marina when they returned from Russia, and the Marine book that Lee was so proud of, and the baby book that I had all these years. And I think it was in regard to marksmanship.

Now, I have Lee's--they are copying all of this, Mr. Doyle--Lee's shooting record. I have that, sir. I have anything you want. It was left in his sea bag. And all of this was left in Lee's sea bag.

This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and, it is a special, I think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what schooling he had at these various places?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would think that it was special schooling.

Mr. RANKIN. He never told you?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. But the other brothers didn't have that type schooling. And I even remarked about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever hear your son say anything for or against President Kennedy?

Mrs. OSWALD. While Marina and Lee were in my home that month, and I had a television----

Mr. RANKIN. About what time was that?

Mrs. OSWALD. This was July, 1962--when they stayed the month with me. Yes, they were delighted with President Kennedy, both.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing political--just "Like President Kennedy." He was telling Marina about President Kennedy. "I like President Kennedy"--"I like, too."

My son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. My son loved the Marines, and loved his work and has never, never said anything against--the only time I questioned my son was ask him why he decided to come home, and he said, "Not even Marina knows that."

That was the one question I wanted to know, because of the many things that they sent me from Russia, as I have previously stated. That was the only thing. So that satisfied me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, this is very important, and I am glad you brought this up. This is the part in New Orleans that I forgot about.

While Lee was working for Tujague & Co. he started to have a bank account, and it was in a Homestead. I do not know the name, but it was on Canal Street, 900 or 100 block of Canal Street, because it was even with Exchange Place. And he started to save his money. The purpose of saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. He was working for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all of these seagoing trips. And I saw the brochure. It was sponsored by very prominent people. There was nothing wrong with it. If he wanted to go, that was all right--could go on this. So he started to save his money to go. However, this was in January--you want the date?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Are we in 1955 in New Orleans? Yes. No, 1956 this would be. January, 1956--Lee took his money out of the Homestead, which was approximately $150, or something like that. And Lee Harvey Oswald bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $10. He bought a bow and arrow set--maybe about $6 or $7. And he bought a gun. Now, I don't know about guns. I was going to say BB gun, but I will not say it was a BB gun--but Robert Oswald will know--or a rifle. But it was not an expensive gun. He was just 16 1/2 years old. And I am of the opinion if he bought a real gun, I would have had to sign or something. I may be wrong. But anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting. I will identify it like that. And then we can go into it further.

And he paid $35 on a coat for me. And the very first job that--the very first pay that Lee got from this job from Tujague sir, he came home with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. It had the ivy in the planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for the parakeet. His very first pay. And then he paid his room and board. I kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where I was on a case, and had the bird up until about 2 years ago--no, I had the bird, and gave it to Lee when they came back from Russia. What has become of it I do not know. I gave the bird and bird cage to Lee and Marina when they came back from Russia. I am trying to give you the picture of this boy. Would you ask me some more questions, please? It is awful hard for me to remember everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember any other guns he had?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is the only gun that I have known Lee to have.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, about Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Let me finish about Robert and his gun. This is important to you.

When we came to New Orleans, I worked at Washer Bros., in New Orleans--transferred from--Goldrings in New Orleans is Washer Bros. in Fort Worth, Tex. So I worked at Washer Bros. Lee came into the place I worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could sell the gun. Well, I was indignant that he came where I was working with a gun. I said, "Lee, we will talk about it later." And several of the salesladies thought that I brushed him off real fast. Well, now, Robert bought that gun from Lee, and gave Lee $10 for the gun. It was 3 months we were living in New Orleans. So Robert gave Lee $10 for the gun. And Robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's house. I have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and squirrel hunting. Robert would know about the gun, the type gun and everything. I do not know.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us all you know about the gun?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is all I know about the gun. And Robert bought the gun from Lee, gave him $10.

Mr. RANKIN. You haven't told us whether you thought your son killed Officer Tippit.

Mrs. OSWALD. I strictly do not believe that Lee killed Officer Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us why?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you know, is very important.

Mr. Lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. I have over 1,500 letters. We have reporters and people investigating for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. And Mr. Lane has a lot of affidavits. I cannot say what Mr. Lane has. But he is doing a very good job about this. And we have come to the conclusion that Lee is not guilty of Officer Tippit.

Now, I gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, I don't know, Mr. Rankin--that could possibly be Marina and the child. We have found out that the Book Depository Building--Mr. Lane has this information--it is owned by the city of Dallas--I should not go into that, I don't know. He has all of this information. Or it is a lease. It is government-owned some way or other. I should not say. Mr. Lane has all of this. We have been investigating night and day.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we have the picture, Mrs. Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right. On the picture, then--and I have talked to Mr. Doyle about this--you might think I am crazy to say so. The first thing I saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. I did not read the letter. I did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion about this picture. We have a lot of comments about this picture. I immediately looked at the picture when I opened it. The first thing I saw was my son Lee and Marina and the child. Then when I called this woman long distance. I said, "You want to know what I saw in the picture?" and I told her. She says, "No, that is not what I see."

Representative FORD. Did you say your first reaction was that you saw Lee, Marina and the child?

Mrs. OSWALD. That was my first reaction. And, if I am correct--I don't say I am correct--but if I am correct, this would be the solution. Lee was escorted out of the building. Kennedy is shot now--I will have to show you the picture. He has passed the window where Lee's rifle is supposed to be. And he is shot in the neck. He has passed this particular part. He is shot in the neck. And then this man that I think is Lee--and I wish I could swear to it, but I am fully convinced--is being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--I am speculating, sir--I have no proof of this. I wish I did. Could be escorted out of the building by a policeman.

Mr. RANKIN. Is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it is--Exhibit 203.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is who I think Lee is.

Mr. RANKIN. That is----

Mrs. OSWALD. There is no face.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the man right in the doorway?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This is Lee's build and everything. The first thing I saw.

Now, they think this is Lee.

No, sir, I do not.

Everybody thinks this is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say they think--it is the man leaning against the side of the doorway, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. That is the picture that everybody is convinced is Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. And you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show any face? It shows the arms over the head?

Mrs. OSWALD. He has his arms up in the air.

Now, that is what I saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. And this woman and child could possibly be Marina.

Now, to explain this--whether I thought Lee shot Officer Tippit or not--Lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back possibly. I am just speculating, sir. But there is a lot of speculation in this case all over the world. From foreign countries I have letters. And that is how he got out of the building. And this same officer could have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could have been killed, to be kept quiet. There is a possibility of this, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully mark on Exhibit 203?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't mean to be telling this Commission what to do. And I cannot do it. But I would like to have this picture printed. And I am willing--I have some few dollars--I have been selling some pictures. I am willing to give a reward of $1,000 if this picture can be printed and these people come--it would have to be Secret Service, FBI, and state their names.

I would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people are.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the letter "A" above the part that you have circled on Exhibit 203, that you say are Marina and the little girl?

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. And "B" over what you circled as being your idea of Lee Oswald being there.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, that is what I saw, and nobody else has seen this. They see the man next to him.

Would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as Lee? He has the same clothes on as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Well--you can testify the man that other people said was Lee Oswald, that you pointed to before on Exhibit 203, would be the one in between, would that be right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He has the same clothes as Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we offer in evidence Exhibit 203 as now marked with the identification.

(The document referred to was received, as indicated, as Commission Exhibit No. 203.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any other reasons why you think that Officer Tippit was not killed by your son Lee Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not.

But, gentlemen, Mr. Mark Lane has affidavits. And we are investigating this--if you will have his testimony. He has pertinent information to this. I intend, when I finish here--I am going to be very quiet about what happened here, with no comments. But when I finish here, I am going on speaking tours. I am going to continue the investigation of the shooting. This is for you. But I intend to continue as long as this Commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we have come up with some very----

The CHAIRMAN. Some very what?

Mrs. OSWALD. Very important factors in this case.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I thought that is what you were here to tell us about.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not the investigator. Mr. Lane is the investigator. Mr. Lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. And he is investigating the death of President Kennedy and the consequent murder of my son.

And he is making tours. And we have these reporters. And we have people giving us their opinions. We have many, many letters from expert riflemen. And I have in my possession--they also write to me--that have gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be done in that length of time and so on and so forth. We have a lot of expert opinions.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you willing to give those to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, we want to. This is what I say is our American way of life. This boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. He did not have a right to defend himself. So Mr. Lane immediately started to defend this boy. And people have come to our rescue.

When I read Mr. Lane's brief, and I realized the truth of some of the statements he said, I contacted Mr. Lane, as you know, and we tried to come before the Commission.

So from now on, when I am through with this Commission, I am going to work with Mr. Lane in my own way--I am booked in New York on a tour next week. And I am going to talk only about the investigation.

We have help, sir. We have Mr. Laurence Ross, who is in New Zealand, who writes articles--very good. And Captain Wooster, is an expert rifleman of New Zealand. He does this all the time. He goes all over.

I am not saying it correctly.

But he is an expert. And he said that he himself could hardly do it. And he practices all the time. That is his--that is what he does for a living. He is an expert.

And we have many, many such letters. I have 1,500 letters, sir. Mr. Doyle has seen my letters and read a few.

We have attorneys writing us. We have ministers. We have all types of people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. And, of course, not satisfied with the way he was shot down without trial. And we are going to continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when I leave the Commission, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are making?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Lane has--well, I don't say booked me, because that would not be the word. But I am supposed to appear Monday at Town Hall in New York--no, Tuesday, the 18th. It is going to be a forum. There are three very prominent men going to be on the panel. And we are going to ask questions and talk. We will have our public support by bringing these matters before the public, because we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more to it. And they are not satisfied.

We are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you to be compensated for these lectures?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. My trip is being paid to New York. And I am to live in a home with a family.

As far as that, I know nothing else about this.

The CHAIRMAN. Who does know the details of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, now, Mr. Lane would know the details. And maybe you think I am being a very foolish woman. But here. When I read--because I have been very cautious so let's say now I am not being cautious. But here is why. When I read Mr. Lane's brief--and I don't know, gentlemen, if you have read it--but I believe it would be pertinent to this Commission to get a copy. It is written in the Guardian--two or three briefs. And I was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. And when I engaged Mr. Lane, he said, "Mrs. Oswald, I will tell you about myself."

I said, "I do not want to hear. As far as I am concerned, you could be a Communist. But to me a Communist is a human being. That is just his way of life."

We are Americans. We have Japanese people. That is their way of life. A Communist, as long as he is not hurting our Government, that is his right to be a Communist. That is his way of life.

I did not want to know anything about Mr. Lane, because I knew Mr. Lane wrote sensible things, that Mr. Lane was interested. And what he wrote made sense. And that is all I am interested in, sir.

If Mr. Lane is getting money, and I am appearing, that is just fine. I am not interested. If I can get before the public and through Mr. Lane doing it, I want to get before that public and state my American way of life and try to prove my son is innocent.

The main part of this is to try to prove Lee Harvey Oswald innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. RANKIN. You said during your testimony that an agent showed you a picture at the Six Flags Inn. Do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I am glad you brought that up, because I have notes on this, too. I have something important to say about that.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask the reporter to mark this.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 237 for identification.)

Mrs. OSWALD. Before I see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped in a hand, I believe it would be better for me for identification. That is the way I saw it. It was cupped in his hand.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, all I have is Exhibit 237, in the shape it is in. And I will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being the picture that was shown to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. This is not the picture shown me. The picture that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. This is not the picture.

This picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a big face and shoulders. I have background here, a lot of white. But this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. And this door was just ajar. And this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut.

Mr. RANKIN. About what size is the picture you are looking at?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is about three by four--approximately three by four, cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. The two top corners. And a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face and shoulders. This is the picture shown me, sir.

Now, at Six Flags Inn, about 3 days later, when I entered the room, on the table were a lot of newspapers. I walked into the room in the presence of my son, and all of the agents. As I stated before, Marina and I knew nothing of what went on. We did not know how Lee was shot or anything, because we did not sit down and watch television.

Mr. RANKIN. What son are you talking about?

Mrs. OSWALD. Robert. So this is approximately the Wednesday, the 25th--no--Sunday was the 24th. About the 26th--it was a few days after Lee was shot, a couple of days. So I walked into the room, and I picked this paper up and turned it over, and I exclaimed, "This is the picture of the man that the FBI agent showed me."

And one of the agents said, "Mrs. Oswald, that is the man that shot your son."

Believe me, gentlemen, I didn't even ask his name. And nothing more was said.

Now, that is very unusual.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked up, was a picture in the newspaper?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the newspaper. The bottom part of the newspaper. I can see that like I can see the picture. I had never seen the picture before.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you later learn whose picture that was?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, when I returned to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., about a week later, Mr. Blair Justice, of the Star Telegram, brought me all the papers, that was the next time I saw the pictures and knew it was Mr. Ruby. And it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me.

Now, this is what I want to know.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture in the paper?

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard, Mr. Garry Seals--well, all of the agents there. The room was full. And Robert Oswald was there. The room was full.

Mr. RANKIN. Was Marina there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Marina was in the bedroom. Marina and I stayed in the bedroom with the children. We could get snatches of the television and so on. The children had diarrhea and so on. We were busy.

As I picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. This picture I saw, the same picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether your son Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I have no way of knowing that. I just hope that he did, if I am right. If Lee is an agent, I hope he knew Jack Ruby.

Representative FORD. When you made that statement, after looking at the newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, because they answered me. They said, "That is the picture of the man that shot your son."

But nothing has been said since that. That is the part that I question all about this.

And then I am not asked to be subpenaed at Jack Ruby's trial or anything.

The FBI says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture of Jack Ruby, not even giving me a chance.

I don't understand. Something is not according to Hoyle. I keep telling you gentlemen.

Now, I can identify this picture, I believe, out of a hundred pictures.

It was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. And why I express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all I could see was the picture and the hand. I didn't even see Mr. Odum so much. That was that hand poked in front of me. I am positive of this. Yet I am not asked any more about the picture. They state, yes, they showed me a picture, but not this picture. I am positive, gentlemen.

Mr. RANKIN. I will ask you about a list of names and see if you know any of them, or if your son, Lee Oswald, knew any of them, to your knowledge.

Mrs. OSWALD. I will be happy to answer.

Mr. RANKIN. Karen Bennett, do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have inquired about this Karen Bennett.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you know her?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know whether I knew her or not. I have asked several people to investigate this for me.

Upon returning from the country on an OB case. I went to work for Royal Clothiers, in Fort Worth, Tex., as an outside sales lady. In OB you have to wait for the babies--and I needed to live. There was a young lady there by the name of Carol, I called her. It could be Karen. Looked very much like the young lady I saw on the television. That is the first time I connected the two. Her father was one of the biggest gangsters in Fort Worth, Tex. And he himself was killed by the gangland of Fort Worth, Tex.

Why I know that--the manager of this Royal Clothiers had remarked who Karen's father was, and I said to him, "I don't appreciate your broadcasting that. I think what her father did has nothing to do with the girl. She is working. Give her a chance to her own life."

I am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. I want you to know that. Maybe I am not liked. But if that makes not being liked, I will continue not being liked, sir.

So this is when I first started to work. However, I found out that the young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. She was working as a barmaid in a tavern on Hemphill Street, in Fort Worth, Tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the Royal Clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night.

Mr. RANKIN. Was she married?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, she was not married. That maybe is what she had to do to support her children. And I understand, because I was left alone.

But--she and I became involved in this way. In the front of the store was a showcase with cheap jewelry. This is a credit place, rings, diamond rings, and bracelets. And Carol had the key to this case, and so did I. And there was some talk about a ring or something missing. I realized right then and there I could not put myself in a position of things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. And my son was a known defector. So I quit that job.

Now, on television for the Ruby trial here comes the girl. I thought I recognized this girl. The name is Karen Bennett. And I called her Carol, it could be Karen Bennett. I didn't have much to do with the girl. So I immediately told this story to Mr. Jack Langueth of the New York Times, and I told also to another Star Telegram reporter, Mr. John McConnoch, because I wanted them to investigate.

But I have not heard anything about it.

Mr. RANKIN. How about Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether your son knew him?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I would not know anybody that my son knew. That I am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. But continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Robert Kermit Patterson, also known as Bobby Patterson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Donald C. Stuart?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Charles Arndt?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. James A. Jackson?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they might be on the back of both of these pictures. I am not sure.

Mr. RANKIN. They are supposed to be associates or friends or people that Mr. Ruby knew and associated with closely.

Stanley or Katya Skotnicki?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Larry Crafard, or Crawford?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember that name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was trying to connect the name with a couple.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he ever spent any time in the Silver Spur?

Mrs. OSWALD. If Lee ever did?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have had no knowledge of Lee for 1 year. None whatsoever.

Mr. RANKIN. And before that do you know whether he spent any time in the Silver Spur in Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

And before that, as to what I do know, that Lee did not drink and Lee did not smoke, and Lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go into saloons--but from what I know of him, he did not go into places like that of his own. If he was working he might have gone into these places.

Mr. RANKIN. These are the nightclubs Jack Ruby was associated with. You recognize that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Vegas Club was another one. Do you know whether he spent time there?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. RANKIN. And the Sovereign Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have no way of knowing. I am going to say, again, Mr. Lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, because that is his part of our investigation. I would like to get back to Patrolman Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. All right. I just want to try to cover this book about Lee Oswald's marksmanship. That has been marked Exhibit 238.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 238, for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. It is a book that you brought here.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from the Marine Corps.

Mr. RANKIN. And that reads, "U.S. Marine Corps Score Book, Oswald, L. H."

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. That is your son's?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. That is his platoon, 2060, that is the one he got the trophy with.

Mr. RANKIN. Were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see there in the book when you first found it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have not touched the book.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it in the same condition?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is the same condition that it was in his sea bag.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 238, and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced.

(The document heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 238 was received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you mark this 239?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 239 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will ask you to glance through Exhibit 239 and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is the photostatic copy----

Mr. RANKIN. Of Exhibit 238?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And you will see it has the same markings.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. This is a copy we will substitute.

Now, do you want to tell about the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I have many, many clippings--as I say, we have all these people working. And we have come to the conclusion, and have never seen where they had an autopsy on Patrolman Tippit or even his gun or anything. In other words, Patrolman Tippit's life has been quiet from the very beginning after the shooting. I have never seen anything about him in print. And we question where all the money that has been given to Mrs. Tippit has come from. That is a tremendous amount of money--tremendous for donations.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you question the money?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; the donations to Mrs. Tippit.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you question whether she received them or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. No--where is the money coming from? As far as she knows, sir, they are donations. But where is the actual money coming from, because it is such a large amount? Like I question Marina's money. She has now $38,000. That is just what they have stated she has. What she has may be more. But that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous lot of money.

And Mrs. Tippit has, I think, almost half a million dollars. Is that correct? I am not quite sure. But, anyhow, it is a large amount of money. And with our investigation and things that are not according to Hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any idea where it comes from, after your investigation?

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, Mr. Lane has. I do not have all the information. He has this information. And we are still investigating it, sir. And we will investigate if it takes another year or two. We are going to continue to arrive at the truth.

Mr. RANKIN. You referred to an article in the Time Magazine of February 14, 1964, volume 83, No. 7, when you said there were some things that were wrong in it--do you remember that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you write a letter about this assassination of President Kennedy to President Johnson at some time?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you send a telegram?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. The only telegram I sent to President Johnson was stating that I had sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren, if you remember.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you get any response from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not get a response from the White House. And I am indignant at the response that I did get. What it did was to inform me, I was so graciously treated by Mr. Kennedy and his Administration, as I have stated and testified, that I am shocked that I am now to be told that I am not to worry the President. "In response to your telegram to the President, I wish to inform you that any requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by Chief Justice Warren should properly be directed to the Commission. I note in your telegram that you have directed your request to the Chief Justice and to Mr. Rankin, the Commission's General Counsel. Sincerely, Lee C. White, Assistant Special Counsel to the President."

Mr. RANKIN. That is the response that you received from the White House?

Mrs. OSWALD. From the telegram that I sent, when I sent a telegram to you and Chief Justice Warren--I sent him a telegram. I have it right here, sir. You don't know about the telegram.

Here is a copy of the telegram.

"President Lyndon B. Johnson. I have sent night letters to Chief Justice Earl Warren and J. Lee Rankin imploring both in the name of justice and our American way of life to let my son Lee Harvey Oswald be represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow will be cross-examined. Respectfully yours, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald."

And this is the response to that. And I don't think that is a gracious response at all. If I want to write the President or send him a telegram, I think I have as much right as anyone else to do so.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you comment on the fact of this response from the White House when you received it to anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. There was a reporter from Time Magazine that I commented to, because I was indignant, as I said. And he said, "Well, if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street wanted to write the President, that is our American way of life." And I agreed with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you are quoted in this article as saying "Why, I have got as much right as any citizen to write the President of the United States, to petition him, and let me tell you this, Mr. Johnson should also remember that I am not just anyone, and that he is only President of the United States by the grace of my son's action." Is that a correct quote?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is not a correct quote. And that is why I was indignant yesterday when I read that. And there is more discrepancies.

I did tell him about receiving the letter, and I had just received it--that I was indignant they should write and as much intimate that I should not write the President.

I made a special appeal to the President.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall what you did say? Did you say anything like this?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. There was nothing said to this reporter about President Johnson--because I believe my son is innocent. So if I say that, then I would be saying that my son is guilty. And that is why the President is now the President. No, sir. I did not say that.

Mr. RANKIN. What reporter for Time Magazine was that that you were talking to?

Mrs. OSWALD. I can find out the name for you, or I can think about it. Let's see. I think the name is Sullivan. I did not want to think--but I think it is Sullivan. Do you have that information?

Mr. RANKIN. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, I will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me.

Mr. RANKIN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I do know, because I was paid for the picture--one of the pictures in that magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. We would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you can.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want to give you any and every information I can.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay for the picture--the same man?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes sir--for the Time Magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he pay you for any part of the story?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir. No, I am wrong there, he did. He paid me for part of the story. That is not the story.

This isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. It was a much nicer and softer story. But we have found out that when we give these press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. And they explain--like if I was to tell Mr. Sullivan, "I am disappointed in your story"--"Well, Mrs. Oswald, our editor edits to make room," and so on. That is what you get. I was disappointed in the story, because the story was that I felt so sorry for Marina, to think that she had to go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband was the killer of President Kennedy, and that she would have to tell her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was the killer of President Kennedy. And I went on with a long story. I said--they said "Marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or that." Let me tell you, I would rather have Marina with the stringy hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like she thought the 3 days I was there--rather than the picture now, where she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in Texas to come to the Warren Commission, which is not the Marina I know.

"Marina, Mama, no, no, she never left her children." And well groomed. But she thinks now her husband shot President Kennedy. What an awful thing. I would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the girl I was before, and believe my husband was innocent.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did Life pay you for your story?

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent?

The CHAIRMAN. Or Time, rather.

Mrs. OSWALD. Is that pertinent to the Commission, or is that my personal?

Mr. DOYLE. I don't think the Chief Justice--he has simply asked you a question. If you wish to answer the question that is fine. If you don't, if you tell the Chief Justice you don't wish to answer the question----

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, it doesn't have any bearing. I think the amount I got would be immaterial to the Commission. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Well. I think it might be material under some circumstances. But if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not--just like the pictures. I want you to have the pictures. And you didn't seem to think they were important enough.

I am asking if this is important to the Commission, because that is my personal life. It is no crime to sell the pictures. I have no job or income. If I want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and protect myself financially, I am going to continue to do that.

Mr. DOYLE. The Commission has stated to you that it would be interested in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. But if you do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you.

So again, it would be completely up to you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that would probably, like these pictures, be my personal----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am delighted you asked me that question. I have these notes here, and didn't go through that.

The first time I knew about General Walker was through the paper.

Now, I became indignant. I do not remember the quotes. But why I became indignant, was that I had Lee's handwriting in Russian. But no one came to me to find out about this note. That is the part, gentlemen, that is so peculiar about this whole thing.

I understand through reporters that the note was shown to Mrs. Ruth Paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was Lee's handwriting. But no one has come to find out if I had any handwriting of Lee in Russian, which I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you think this was in Russian?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I am under the impression that the note was in Russian. It stated in the paper.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn about the Walker incident?

Mrs. OSWALD. Through the newspaper. And it has been changed, the story, now. If I can remember. Now, I will get this for you. I have a friend that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the United States, that helps in this investigation. And I can get all these articles, sir. And I will help in every way possible.

If I remember correctly, it was stated that Marina found this note in the room that says "I may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the Russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. I wish I knew the exact quote. So we are getting back to an agent now.

From what I remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that he was going to kill General Walker--that he would be involved in something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. I remember this. That was in the very beginning, sir. It came out in Fort Worth, Tex.

So he is going to be involved in something. That doesn't mean he is going to shoot General Walker.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you learn that he did try to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. As the story started to leak out from the paper, what we call leaks. I have to say this, because we are investigating this. I am not the main investigator. But I talk to people. They call, and I get letters from them. Every now and then Mr. Jim Martin, who is the business manager for Marina, would quote Marina--not Marina, but he would quote Marina about General Walker, quoted her about thinking in her mind that her husband had killed the President.

And I was firing back through the newspapers and saying Mr. Jim Martin was an American citizen, and I didn't appreciate him quoting my daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. How can they prove that Lee had killed General Walker, because now maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. It happened before.

Mr. RANKIN. You knew that he was not killed.

Mrs. OSWALD. What good would it be for Mr. Martin to make a statement like this that Marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could not now prove that Lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or anything. I could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my daughter-in-law very much. I have many letters from people expressing their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these remarks. But it is Mr. Jim Martin.

Marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing to her, Mr. Rankin. I have publicly fought this over and over--if you have my quotes from the Fort Worth Star Telegram and so on, and probably the New York papers. I deeply feel sorry for Marina. Marina is a Russian girl. Maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, maybe they would shoot him in Russia. I don't know.

But here we have an American way of life that Marina is not familiar with.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you want her to tell the truth about it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I want Marina to tell the truth just like I want to tell the truth. But from my testimony here, I have found out that Marina has lied.

Mr. RANKIN. What have you found out about the Walker incident? Have you found anything about that was untrue that Marina said?

Mrs. OSWALD. That Marina said it?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have not heard Marina say it. I have not heard Marina say it. I can answer this way. This comes from Mr. Jim Martin. There is many, many things about Mr. Jim Martin and Mr. Thorne that I don't think maybe it is right that I should say these things in front of the Commission, because they are rumors.

But a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. I will say this: I understand from many, many a source that the Dallas Bar Association is going to have Mr. Jim Thorne before them. Now that is my understanding there.

Mr. RANKIN. So all you know about the Walker incident is what you have read in the papers.

Mrs. OSWALD. What I have read in the paper. And I certainly did not appreciate that. Mr. Jim Martin is a citizen, if Marina is not.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you ever ask your son, Lee Oswald, whether he was an agent of anybody?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, I have never asked Lee Oswald if he was an agent because I felt like he would not tell me.

Mr. RANKIN. But you have not asked him.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I have not asked him.

Oh, one very important thing that I must tell you. On November 26--that was the night of November 26, and the day of November 26 was when I found out that Marina was going to live with someone else, and we had no contact. So I knew I wasn't wanted or involved. I was in the bedroom. And I left the Inn of the Six Flags, gentlemen, under strict security protection. I opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, and I went out doors. And I was about 15 feet when they realized that I had left the Inn. Now, there was a man on the outside, stationed there night and day. But there was a little arbor. And this was in the bedroom. We had two entrances--one to the living room and one to the bedroom. I opened the bedroom door. I had my coat and bag and I was going to go home. I was going to take a bus and go home because I didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over.

And I was 15 or 20 feet when two agents came and took me by the arm and I went back in. I didn't make a stink or anything about it. And that night I sat up all night, and the next morning I insisted upon going home. But the point that has to be made is was I under arrest or not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to the Inn of the Six Flags.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of you that way?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. And I didn't say anything. I just went back in. So then the doctor--I do not know his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, they had diarrhea. And the man whispered something to the doctor. And we closed the door. The doctor asked me for Lee's social security number. And I have testified that I had gone home the night before to get all my papers, after much persuasion. I started to look through the papers for Lee's number. And I started to cry. He and I were in the room alone. I think this was purposely, because they said something to the doctor.

I said I am very upset and told the doctor what happened. And I said "You know, my heart is breaking. I cannot understand how they would do something like that, and not tell me about it."

So he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. When we opened the door he said to the agents "She is all right, she has a right to her feelings." So they must have thought that I was--something was wrong with me. They thought--because I took the attitude immediately--well, Robert said it--I said "Why didn't you let me know." "Well, just because the way you are acting now." I said "How am I acting. I am acting in a normal way. I have lost my son. Now you have made arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two grandchildren to live with strangers. This is a normal reaction. Am I going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, I don't need my part of them."

This is a normal reaction.

Reverend Saunders, Louis Saunders, who is a minister at the grave, accidentally came at the very last minute. He had not preached a sermon in 8 years. He is head of the Council of Churches.

He heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very last minute. And Rev. Granville Walker was sent to my home in Fort Worth, Tex., the next day after I arrived home, to help, to console me about this case. So he said "Mrs. Oswald, I understand that Marina has been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. Are you not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the children have an education."

I said "No, Reverend Saunders, I do not feel that way about it. Those are material things. How do we know if these children will live to derive any benefit from this education. I think that we should stick together as a family. Her Mama, like she wanted. The girl said she has no Mama. Everything was arranged for the Mama. She is talking about money and material things. I expressed my opinion at the Six Flags, that we start with $863--no contributions were coming in. And then if we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. And I remarked--I am working for a very wealthy woman.

Who knows, maybe she will give us $5,000. Let us stick together as a family. Reverend Saunders says "Mrs. Oswald, your philosophy of life is beautiful, and it is a Biblical way. But you know you have to be practical."

So the very next day, sir--and this is in "Christianity Today," to prove my point--Mr. Jim Cox, who writes for "Christianity Today" and is a Star Telegram reporter called me and said "Mrs. Oswald, Reverend Saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life."

I sat down, and Mr. Jimmy Cox stayed home from Church--I gave Mr. Jimmy Cox a story that is in Christianity Today, that only goes to ministers, and it is because of Reverend Saunders. So I do have people to testify about this particular thing. And I did act in a normal way. That is a normal reaction, to not want to give up my family.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald. I will give you Exhibits 206 through 227, both inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the State Department that you have referred to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Do you want the numbers as I go along?

Mr. RANKIN. No. You just look at them.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Representative FORD. These are copies, Mr. Rankin, of her letters to the State Department and the responses?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, that is correct, is it not, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And these copies were made under your supervision were they not.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I voluntarily gave you every copy I have. That is correct. That is correct. That is correct.

Some of this seems to be scratched out here.

Mr. DOYLE. On Exhibit No. 221, there seems to be some X markings around. Will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the original.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is correct. That is correct. That is correct. I don't remember writing to Mrs. James. I remember calling her on the telephone. This is my handwriting. I guess I did.

Yes, that is my handwriting. That is correct.

That is correct. That is correct. And this is correct, but should have a card with it.

Mr. DOYLE. You are referring to 227?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And it should have with it a card, a postcard, from Lee.

Mr. DOYLE. Set 227 aside with 221.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have a copy of 221?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you please check to see that is a correct copy.

Mr. Chairman, I think that we might gain time now if we would check these exhibits out with Mrs. Oswald, and be able to offer them at whatever time we reconvene. That is all we propose to do now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that should have gone with that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, were you able to find your copy of Exhibit 221, and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your copy?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir, we have not found that yet.

"Yours 11th" is scratched out.

Mr. RANKIN. So that 221 is correct, but apparently there are some errors----

Mrs. OSWALD. There are more errors, too. Because it doesn't say "Services Department of State."

Mr. DOYLE. 221 does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit.

Mr. RANKIN. But it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. It doesn't have this--"collect." I would not say it was an exact copy.

Mr. DOYLE. It appears to have substantially the information on it. It is not a photostat of it.

Mr. RANKIN. I might advise you, Mrs. Oswald, this is from the State Department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to you.

Mr. DOYLE. It is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the information that is set forth in the telegram itself.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have examined all of the exhibits, 206 through 227, both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your counsel said about exhibit 221, and the card that was with 227, to be correct.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 206 through 227, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit Nos. 206 through 227, heretofore marked for identification, were received in evidence.)

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the card that goes with this letter, as an explanation.

(The card referred to was marked Exhibit No. 240 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 240 is the card you have just referred to that goes with Exhibit 227, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 240, and ask that a copy be substituted.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The card referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 240.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, would you examine exhibits 228 through 236, both inclusive? And tell us whether or not those appear to be photostatic copies of correspondence about the Albert Schweitzer College and application?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right. That is right. This is correct. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right. That is right.

Those are all right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You have just finished comparing Exhibits 228 through 236 both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your files concerning the Albert Schweitzer matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence, Exhibits 228 through 236 both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibit Nos. 228 through 236, inclusive.)

The CHAIRMAN. Have you introduced all the records you have now?

Mr. RANKIN. Just a few more, Mr. Chairman.

(The document referred to was marked 241 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you Exhibit 241 and ask you if that is one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is one that you received?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is one that I received in a letter from Russia, from Lee. And you have the letter, telling me to go to the International Rescue Committee, and to show the papers to the Red Cross in Vernon. This is the letter inclosed in that letter.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibit 241, and ask leave to substitute a copy.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The letter referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 241.)

(Documents marked 242 and 243 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibits 242 and 243 are the telegram and the letter you received back from your transmission to the White House that you have testified about this morning, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. And you say you would like to have the originals back?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We offer in evidence Exhibits 242 and 243 and ask leave to substitute copies.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted on that condition.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 242 and 243 were admitted in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Are all the records identified now and admitted, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some correspondence that involves her son's communications with the Embassy, which correspondence was examined in the presence of Mr. Mark Lane when we were taking photostatic copies. And during that examination, Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not able to identify it on another part. Is that right, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask her briefly to point those out.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let's get that done before we adjourn, and then we will adjourn for lunch.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark these exhibits, which are the ones that I understand Mrs. Oswald was able to identify the handwriting on.

(Documents were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, will you examine Exhibits 244 through 250, both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of the originals?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. If you do not on any one of them, announce the number.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is one I would believe that I have stated--if he wrote it, he wrote it very careful. It is not scribbled like he usually does.

Mr. DOYLE. That is 246.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the second page of Exhibit 246?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is just a little different. That could be forged. Just a little difference. We write left handed, and we have a trend.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that one that you said before that you thought you could recognize?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know, sir. I have no way of knowing. How would I know?

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recognize the handwriting now?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I have stated before, when I am looking at it, it doesn't appear to be immediately as Lee's handwriting. But it could be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect lettering. It is not scribbled like we usually scribble. Now, this was one also that I would say----

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 247.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is scribbled.

Mr. RANKIN. That is more scribbled, you say?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is not quite as his ordinary writing. It is a little more thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. You think it is his, though?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would say this is his.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 248.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it is printed. I do not know too much about Lee's printing.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the handwriting?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I will state again this looks like Lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 249. Is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is right. And this is Lee's signature.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 250 that you just referred to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I would say it is all Lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibits 244 through 250, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 244 through 250, inclusive.)

(A group of documents was then marked 251 through 258 for identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you recognize the handwriting.

Mrs. OSWALD. That doesn't look too much like Lee's handwriting. It could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. But I cannot identify this as Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell about the signature?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks a little like Lee's signature.

Mr. DOYLE. You refer to 251, when you are discussing this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, 251.

Now, this one I would say was not Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 252?

Mrs. OSWALD. 252.

I have never known Lee to sign Lee Harvey Oswald. He always signed Lee H. There again, that could be Lee's handwriting with a fine pen. But very thoughtfully written. But I will say it is not Lee's. I don't think it is. I cannot be positive. But I do not think it is Lee's handwriting.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 252 that you have been referring to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Exhibit 252.

Here is another of the same caliber. It is too perfect. The writing is too perfect.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the signature?

Mrs. OSWALD. The signature looks like Lee's signature.

Mr. DOYLE. That is 253.

Mrs. OSWALD. 253. Yes, sir. This is a little different signature, I would say, than his normal signature.

Mr. RANKIN. 254?

Mrs. OSWALD. 254, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that Exhibit 254 is your son's handwriting or not?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have to say with reservations again. It would have to be rewritten very thoroughly. It is not scribbled enough.

Mr. RANKIN. You think that those letters, 251 through 254, are too carefully done for your son Lee?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And if he did do them, he would have to have four or five copies to do it so perfect.

This is a little more scribbled. This signature looks more like Lee's than the other did.

Mr. RANKIN. That is 255?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 255.

This looks like Lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his signature. 256.

Now his Russian handwriting I know only from return addresses. However, I do have two brown papers with Russian writing on, from gifts that were sent to me. But I don't know if Lee addressed them or not.

And this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. Isn't this handwriting backwards for a left hand? It seems when I looked at "my," it should be going this way--because I write like Lee, left handed.

Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards, you were referring to Exhibit 257, were you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. This "m" should be going this way--which it is really. But it is kind of hard to testify to. I would say this is Lee's handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations.

Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 257.

We offer in evidence Exhibits 251 through 257, both inclusive.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to were received in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 251 through 257, inclusive.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at 2 o'clock. But are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us about your life?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, but I would like to have lunch.

The CHAIRMAN. I said that we were going to have lunch. But when we return--you have things up to that point of your story?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

You have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch?

Mr. RANKIN. I should like to offer for the limited purpose, Mr. Chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to Mrs. Oswald and she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that limited purpose I should like to offer Exhibit 237.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be so admitted.

(The picture referred to was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 237.)

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chief Justice, during the noon hour may I have the custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with Mrs. Oswald, the 28 pages which was tendered to us by Mr. Rankin this morning--and I will return it.

Mr. RANKIN. That is for them to have.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to become your own.

Mr. DOYLE. To become the property of Mrs. Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. The property of Mrs. Oswald, yes. That is what we gave it to you for. She requested that.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, we will recess now until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MARGUERITE OSWALD RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, will you proceed with the hearing?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to telling us about your life. We would appreciate that if you would do that.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of your life, that is perfectly all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. I want to tell the story but there is something else that upsets me.

The CHAIRMAN. It is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. You may take your time now and go right ahead.

Mrs. OSWALD. I am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of my life, and Mr. Doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of my life that will have a great connection with this, I believe.

I married Mr. Edwin Ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $10,000 a year man with an expense account. Mr. Ekdahl had a woman before he married me. Of course, I didn't know about it, sir. I made him wait a year before I married him, but the way I found this out, I received a telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times Lee and I traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed to and for me not to meet him.

So, I called his office, I was familiar with, knew his secretary, and I was going to tell her that Mr. Ekdahl would be delayed 3 or 4 days. But immediately she said, "Mrs. Ekdahl, Mr. Ekdahl is not in, he has gone out to lunch."

So, I said, the general conversation went "When will he be back" and so on, and so that evening I took the car and I went to the Texas Electric Co., works for the Texaco, the main office in New York, but he was working in Fort Worth at the time, went to the building and saw him leave the building and I followed him and to an apartment house, saw him go into this apartment house.

Then I went back home, and my oldest son, John Edward Pic, who is in the service, had a friend at the house who was about 2 years older. I told them about what happened. So it was night by this time. The kids went with me.

I called Mr. John McClain, who is an attorney, and we live next door to Mr. McClain, and told him that I had seen Mr. Ekdahl go into a home when he was supposed to be out of town and what should I do.

He said, "Mrs. Oswald, just ring the phone. Do you know the woman?"

And I said, "Yes."

"Just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that you saw him."

After I thought about it I thought that is not a good idea because he could leave and say he was just there on business and I wanted to catch him there.

So the kids and I planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we went up the stairs, I believe it was the second or the third floor, and the young man knocked on the door and said, "Telegram for Mrs. Clary"--was her name.

She said, "Please push it under the door" and I told him no; he said, "No, you have to sign for it."

So with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that I, my son, and with the other young man walked into the room and Mrs. Clary had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "Marguerite, Marguerite, you have everything wrong, you have everything wrong."

He says, "Listen to me."

I said, "I don't want to hear one thing. I have seen everything I want to see, this is it."

My two boys, in military school, the two older boys, I am paying for the two older boys because I have sold a piece of property. I wanted to take care as long as I had money of my own children and when I married Mr. Ekdahl if he would support me and Lee I would be able to take care of John Edward, and Robert in military school, we couldn't have them with us because Mr. Ekdahl traveled.

This man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary, in other words, I was another woman to him. I received $100 a month and that was it. That was all the money I had from Mr. Ekdahl, and when we traveled, for instance, we were in Santa Fe, N. Mex., and he was with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until Mr. Ekdahl got through, the baby and I, in order to eat, whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock in the evening because here I was, registered under Mrs. Ekdahl and I had a checking account, but under the name of Oswald, which was the money I was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for me to write a check under the name of Oswald.

I am trying to point out the kind of man he was.

I had a nice living in this sense. We lived in the finest hotels and we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense account but he gave me nothing but this $100. That was a standard thing and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars that I spent, which I refused to do.

So, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. Any man who marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in his insurance and so on and so forth.

I wanted to divorce Mr. Ekdahl naturally but my two boys as I have stated before were in the military school, and I wanted to wait until the end of the season, the school season.

So, Lee and I went to Covington, La., and I picked the boys up at military school because this was summer time--rather I wasn't back to him.

I left him and went back to him. But this particular time I picked the boys up at military school and we spent the summer in Covington, La., and by the way, I forgot to say that Lee had a beautiful voice and sang beautifully at age 6 in Covington, La., he sang a solo in the church, Silent Night, and that can be verified. This is a very small town and the only Lutheran Church there.

So, Mr. Ekdahl came to Covington, La., and I went back again to Mr. Ekdahl. But this time I went back to him I hadn't found out about the woman. I got excited. Then I found out about the woman, he rented a place on 8th Avenue, a home.

And after I was there about a day I was in the yard hanging out some things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came along and I said, "How are you? I am Mrs. Ekdahl."

She looked astonished, and after I had made friends with her she informed me Mr. Ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while I was in Covington and she thought she was his wife but now I am the wife come.

Then I found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and caught her there. This is the end of the season by this time.

In the meantime Mr. Ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. I thought I was sitting pretty. He didn't have anything on me. I had him for adultery with witnesses and everything and I didn't have an idea that he could sue me for a divorce, but Mr. Ekdahl did sue me for a divorce, and Mr. Ekdahl got the divorce. It was a jury case, and Mr. John McClain, was my attorney, the man I told you that I called to find out what to do.

Now, Mr. Fred Korth represented Mr. Ekdahl and when I walked into the courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that I had never seen before.

A Mr. George Levine, who is a very big businessman and who Mr. Ekdahl was representing in Fort Worth for the electrical part of his plant. I knew him this way.

One time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and Lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. Now, understand we are having dinner in a public place. From the dinner we go to the circus, we are in a public place and I want you to know that it is the only time I had seen Mr. George Levine, when Mr. George Levine rushed from work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and how I threw bottles at him and so on and so forth.

There were other witnesses that I had never seen, sir, who swore how I nagged Mr. Ekdahl, and Mr. Ekdahl got his divorce from me.

Now, 2 days after the assassination, after Lee's death, while I am at Six Flags it comes over the radio that Mr. Korth knew the family, this happened in 1948, sir, then Mr. Korth knew the family, and that he had represented Mr. Ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked to the reporters where they got the information that I hit him with a bottle and so on and so forth.

Now, that is my story there. I am not even guilty of that divorce, as you see. This can be proved by my son John Edward Pic because he was a witness, sir.

I do not think I am going--I am not going to speculate but give my thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years ago, and that I nagged Mr. Ekdahl and so on and so forth.

That was publicly announced about 2 days after my son was shot, sir.

Now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name Oswald, but the name then was Ekdahl that I would say would stick in his mind more.

I will try to get to the very beginning of my life, Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Any time. Just take your time.

Mrs. OSWALD. My mother died when I was quite young and my father raised us with housekeepers. My aunt lived in the neighborhood and I had a lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. My father was French, his name was Claverie, and my mother was German, the name is Stucke. All of my father's folks spoke French and my father spoke French to his sisters. I was a child of one parent, and yet I have had a normal life, a very hard normal life that I had been able to combat all by myself, sir, without much help from anyone.

I am saying that in reference to Lee being alone; there have been so many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image and that is why he did the shooting. There are many, many children with one parent who are perfectly normal children and I happen to be one myself.

I had a very happy childhood. I sang. I sang from the kindergarten at grammar school, and all through grammar school I was the lead singer. I was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. I also play piano by ear. I don't know a note. I used to play the marching school song for the school children.

At my grammar school graduation I had the honor of wearing a pink dress instead of a white dress and sang the song "Little Pink Roses." So I had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. I played the piano. We had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and it was everything Marguerite--and I also played a ukulele, so I have a very full happy childhood.

At the age of 17, I am ahead of my story--I have had 1 year high school education. I know that on my applications I had that I had completed high school but that is almost necessary to get a job.

But I had 1 year of high school education is all that I had, sir.

I then went to work at age 17, not quite 17, for one of the biggest corporation lawyers in New Orleans, La. The name then was DuFour, Rosen, Wolff, and Kammer. Mr. DuFour died while I was there and Mr. Kammer, I believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys for that firm plus 4 or 5 other attorneys that handled divorce cases and similar cases and I was receptionist in the outer office.

So, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular case I had to know who to refer the party to this particular man.

So, naturally, I got a very large education, let's say, by doing this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest attorneys, corporation attorneys in New Orleans, sir, and they were attorneys representing the New Orleans Public Service and big things of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. When the mayor came in he had an appointment but I still had to ring the phone to see if the men were ready to see him. So they called me the boss.

I was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. I am a very poor young lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady.

My early childhood. We lived on the Phillips Street in New Orleans which was a very poor neighborhood. My father was one of the very first streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed neighborhood of Negroes and white, and my childhood I played with Negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that I grew up with this Negro family.

I married Mr. Edward John Pic, Jr., while working at the law firm. I was married to Mr. Pic two and a half years when I became with child, and he did not want any children. His family and my family tried to talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but nobody could do anything with him.

So, at 3 months I left Mr. Pic. Mr. Pic did not divorce me, and you have the records there of me divorcing Mr. Pic, contrary to all other stories, sir.

This child, John Edward Pic then I bore alone, without a husband. I was 3 months pregnant. I had 6 more months to go, and I had this child without a husband.

So, I have had two children without a husband present, Lee and the first child.

Mr. Oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at my sister's house, and the day that I left Mr. Pic he helped move my furniture, the things that I was going to take.

I didn't see Mr. Ekdahl for some time and----

The CHAIRMAN. Ekdahl or Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Oswald, sir, I am sorry.

John Edward and I were coming from the park one day, and Mr. Ekdahl picked--Mr. Oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife, however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and I started dating Mr. Ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his wife.

Mr. RANKIN. You said Ekdahl again.

Mrs. OSWALD. Oswald, I am sorry, and then he got the divorce proceeding. He was separated for a long time but never had been divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and I also then got the divorce from Mr. Pic. I was not divorced there from Mr. Pic, either. We were legally separated but I was not divorced from him.

So, Mr. Oswald and I married and of that marriage Robert was born 9 months later, and as you know consequently Lee, 2 months after his father had died.

Now, Mr. Oswald was a very good man. There was the only happy part of my life. When he died hardly anybody knew that John Edward Pic was not his son. He wanted to adopt John Edward, but because his father was supporting him which I think was only $18 a month, I explained to Lee that I thought we should save this money for the boys' education and let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do all we could do but that was no more than right. So that is why he did not adopt John Edward.

Now, that is the story of my three marriages. I have been married approximately 9 years in the three times that I have been married, sir, and I would say, I am probably guilty of a lot of things but the initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first marriage I had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third marriage was Mr. Ekdahl.

I think then you know the rest of the story, how I lived with my children and tried to support my children.

I have often held two jobs trying to support my children. I have a whole file that the Commission has copies of jobs that I have worked, and I have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. I have wonderful recommendations. I think I have been fired about five times in my life, and I have had much, much employment, and the reason for that is finances, in other words, I have always had a very low salary, and I am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say, and I always produce for my people and I was in demand actually.

They would come to me and offer me 20, 25 dollars more, believe me, gentlemen. I would quit the job where I was and quit the new job because 25 dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment, and also I used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time when the children were little in order to be home with them.

Now, I skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed in the Lutheran Home. I am Lutheran and I was a church member, a church worker, I should say. I helped, I sewed, natural gifted, I never did take a lesson, I never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this.

I used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. I just had the knack of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my niece, I taught her to sew and my sister said, "You are so slow, Aunt Marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my niece would say, "Is it true, my mother said you would sew on material and go out on a date," and I said, "I wish I had a nickel for every time I did."

So those are gifted things I can't explain.

Lee had certain gifted ways about him also.

In the early part of my life that I had skipped when the war broke out and my finances were gone, I talked with the church. It was on Alva Street in New Orleans, not too far where my home was and they investigated the money I had, and I had a little money left at this time and they let me place the two older boys in the Lutheran Home which is a home only for the Lutheran Church.

This is not an institution. They have their own private school on the ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. However, they do take orphans. It was really not designed to be an orphan home. It was for children of one parent and you pay according to your circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after I went to work, I paid according to my circumstances for my two boys.

I took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them back in time for Sunday so they can go to church with the children in the home. They got a wonderful education because the school on the school grounds had very few children in them.

There would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so they had wonderful school. Lee was too young. They would not take Lee into the home until he was 3 years old.

So, I have hired maids and I have quit many a job for this. You have a background on my job, this accounts for it. Many a position and I have always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge of a department, and I have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money.

War had broken out and the Negroes in New Orleans were going into factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job I had to leave in order to stay home and mind Lee until I could get help.

Then my sister helped with Lee. There is one particular instance, I let a couple have my home, plus $15 a month in order to care for Lee while I worked, and this couple after about 2 month's time had neglected Lee and so I had to put them out of the house and there again I had to quit a job, and take care of Lee until I could make arrangements and my sister could help me with it.

So when Lee was 3 years old I was having it very difficult with Lee, because of the different people to take care of Lee, and the different jobs that I had to give up.

However, I was never in want of work. It was during the war and I was always able to get work, but I realized if I continued to quit jobs because I couldn't hold the jobs that some day I wouldn't have enough jobs in New Orleans for me to hold one.

So, then at age 3 Lee was placed in the home. I waited patiently for age 3 because I wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. It was hard on Lee also because Lee was at a different place and his brothers were at a different place. So at age 3 I placed Lee in a Lutheran home. Of course, you have to be under strict investigation financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church placement, sir.

Then, I became manager of Princess hosiery shop on Canal Street. I opened that shop and I was left by myself and in 6 days' time I hired four girls. There was the first shop this man has had. He now has, I think, 54 stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the time. And this is where I met Mr. Ekdahl and there is why I didn't want to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and I was manager of the hosiery shop.

So, now, I was sitting pretty in our American slang and I did not want to marry. But he persisted. He decided he wanted to marry me and I decided to marry him. I went to the Lutheran home and talked to the, well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and I was going to marry Mr. Ekdahl, and I asked if I should have, if I could have Lee, that I didn't want the children, John Edward, and Robert to miss their schooling and I told them that I would wait until the children got out of school to marry Mr. Ekdahl but Mr. Ekdahl traveled, and, yet, he had a stroke and Mr. Ekdahl had offered, if I would come to Dallas, he was being transferred to Dallas, that he would pay my room, my living quarters and everything if I would cook and take care of him and I told the home, the Lutheran home about this arrangement, so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or I wouldn't have explained to the Lutheran home and they let me have Lee under those circumstances because they knew that I was a good woman and doing the best I could.

So, I got Lee, and when we went to Dallas, I then realized I did not want to marry Mr. Ekdahl, but I had already given up my position as manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken Lee out of school so with the money, I told you I had some money, and I had sold a piece of property, I bought another piece of property for a very small down payment on Victor Street in Dallas, Tex., and Mr. Ekdahl traveled.

Now, Mr. Ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. Of course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every weekend because he traveled, and then I decided I would marry Mr. Ekdahl. I mean I decided not to, I mean, he was a persistent one.

Then I married Mr. Ekdahl and the home was sold and I traveled with Mr. Ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money I sold the home with.

I believe I have covered everything. I am not quite sure.

Are there any questions, Mr. Rankin, that I haven't gotten?

Mr. RANKIN. I think that is very helpful.

I would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then decided you didn't want to give us. If you would get those out, I would like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding about just what they are about.

Could you do that?

Mrs. OSWALD. By the way, one of the reporters when I came downstairs said "What is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, Mrs. Oswald?" Where do those leaks come from? That is the example. They wanted to know about the pictures.

Mr. Chief Justice, this is Lee at 6 months.

The CHAIRMAN. He was a good looking baby.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is Lee there at 2 years. Would--if you would like a copy of the Marina pictures, sir, I would be more than happy to do that.

I think they are in an envelope. This is important, Mr. Rankin. This has something to do with Time Magazine is what I think he did. This is where he got that from. These were copied for this session. These are from my other boys to mother, and John Edward and which I wanted to show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another thing, which is true to human nature.

I am a widow woman with no money and I happened not to have the type daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support me. My children make very low salaries and so I am not alone, we have thousands and thousands of women like me. It is hard to say the children don't want you. But there are many, many mothers whose sons have married because it is different with a girl.

Now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually nothing and I am not going to be helped or supported.

I am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that was the attitude when I was sick.

Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any time but I wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they married. That was the type family we were, sir.

And this was the picture, Mr. Rankin, of the three children which is a happy life and he wanted to be in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I am going to call your attention to Exhibit 258 which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I gave him this when he entered the home.

Mr. RANKIN. This Exhibit 258 refers to the letter you received from me as general counsel for the Commission, and then a letter to the President, and your appeal to the President, is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And this is a copy you released for the press conference in Dallas. That is Exhibit 258. I offer Exhibit 258.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

Mr. RANKIN. If you will permit me, I will ask the court reporter to identify these pictures and I don't intend to offer them but then I will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all right with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is just fine, thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mrs. Oswald, I will hand you Exhibits 259 through 269, both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with Exhibit 259 and referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the Commission what the picture is about.

Mrs. OSWALD. 259 is of the three children, John Edward, Robert, and Lee and the three are smiling. In fact this picture was in a magazine because of the three good poses. It is hard to get three pictures alike.

Mr. RANKIN. About how old are the children in that picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know Lee was approximately going on 6 years old. There is 5 years difference in Robert so Robert would be 11, that is correct and John Edward would be 13. That is when they went to military school.

This is a picture of Lee at age 6 months.

Mr. RANKIN. You are talking about Exhibit 260?

Mrs. OSWALD. 260, yes, sir.

This is a picture of Lee at the Bronx Zoo, Exhibit 261 at age 13.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is the Bronx Zoo in New York that you told us about.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

262 is a picture of Lee in Atsugi, Japan in 1958 showing his strength.

Mr. RANKIN. That shows him in Marine uniform also, does it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In his Marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother.

And this is a picture, Exhibit 263 taken in Corregidor 1957 in the wilderness.

Mr. RANKIN. He is still in the Marines there?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. This is a picture taken August 19, 264 taken in California coming home on leave from Japan.

Mr. RANKIN. 264 he is still in the Marines?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he is still in the Marines August 19. This is a picture of Lee taken in Minsk, Russia June 1st, 1961, Minsk, USSR, Exhibit 267.

There is a picture of Marguerite Oswald, the mother taken in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. What is the number?

Mrs. OSWALD. 265.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. That is your own picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

This is a Mother's Day card sent to me from Santa Ana, California on May 7, 1959 from Lee.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 266?

Mrs. OSWALD. And this is Exhibit 268 which is a Christmas card I had sent Lee on his first Christmas away from home--he joined in October--that Lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was found in his sea bag he left with me.

This is a book of Christmas carols Exhibit 269 that was also found in Lee's sea bag.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, Exhibits 259 to 269 both inclusive, are those all of the pictures that you were offering the Commission this morning?

Mrs. OSWALD. I have many more pictures, I would be happy to show you but these are the pictures that your Mr. Jenner said he would like to have for the Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. And that you were referring to when you offered them to the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much and we would like to return them to you at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. We will return them to you, Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Well I think that will be all then. Thank you Mrs. Oswald and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence.

Now, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Sorry for the interruption, sir. Mrs. Oswald, do you care to make any comment to the Commission about the tape recording, the transcript of the tape recording of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald furnished to you by the Commission this morning? Do you care to make any comment about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Should I go all the way and make the comment?

Mr. DOYLE. You make any comment you desire on that paper. I ask you whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that you sent, that you were given?

Mrs. OSWALD. I am concerned about one thing, Mr. Doyle, if I may just step over there and ask you a question.

The CHAIRMAN. You may step out in the hall and talk to Mr. Doyle.

Mrs. OSWALD. Chief Justice Warren and Mr. Rankin, I have read this and it has upset me very, very much, that is what I was upset about. I have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the Six Flags I insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and I was ignored.

I wanted to testify. They put Robert on tape many a time and Marina continuously and I didn't have an interview. I have stated this previously, if you remember, and then finally a Mr. Howard put me on tape for about 5 or 10 minutes only, sir, and I had started with the defection because I was under the impression that we missed a bet when we didn't find out how Lee got to Russia and as far as I know, no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then Robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get a minister, if you recall, and cried, and I said to Mr. Howard "Now all that I have left me because I see my son crying bitterly." I have stated these facts before, a very short interview.

This interview is supposed to have been by Mr. Howard, sir. The same Mr. Mike Howard that I have previously identified before on many occasions, and I swear before this Committee that now my life is more in danger which I have said before, because I did not give this testimony. This is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts because I have been a public figure.

I have had three press conferences, I have written for magazines and newspapers. I have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things have been accumulated. I was not questioned and answered, sir. I have stated it before and I state it now. This is the same man who was sent to me in Fort Worth, Tex. that I have complained that I did not get protection, if you will recall. This is the very same man, sir. This is the same man that I have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one I identified in the picture. This is the man I have been sitting here complaining about. Here is my evidence. I am ready to have a heart attack. I was sick, sir, when I read it because I realize now how my life is in danger and I want to say this: Many people know about this, many people, sir, Mr. Jack Langdon of the Morning Times, Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram and I immediately called Mr. Blair Justice of the Star Telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to protect me, and told Blair Justice that this was the man, there was an article written in the Star Telegram, not printed but about pointed every lie at the Six Flags I made it plain that the other one if he had a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, Mr. Rankin you remember that, so I told Mr. Justice, I said "Justice I am scared to death. This is the same man that I am suspicious of that they have now sent to guard me," and as you know, sir, I was not protected.

I was not protected while in Fort Worth. I have testified to that, if you will recall. This is the man, and I did not give this testimony, sir.

I have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that I have never been questioned. The only thing I could figure why I was never questioned is because Lee was an agent, and I have stated that fact. Why they left me alone, because I have never been questioned.

Mr. Tom Whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations in Fort Worth he kept calling Lee the assassin of President Kennedy, and I called Mr. Whalen and I said to Mr. Whalen "You don't know that Lee assassinated President Kennedy. I object to that."

I said "I can't tell you what to do, sir, but I would like you to say the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and we talked a little while and I said no sir, I told him I was not--I had never been interviewed. He says "I can't believe that, Mrs. Oswald." I said "Believe it or not I have never been interviewed," which I made a statement upon arriving in Washington that I have never had a complete tape recording or question and answer.

I went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the FBI men as I stated previously, which took a few minutes.

I never did see those men after that. They weren't investigated and at the Six Flags I repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give the documents that I have here, as I stated, and I was not questioned, sir at Six Flags.

I was questioned for about 5 or 10 minutes and I stopped this way. All of my thoughts have gone from me because I see my son crying. I have previously stated that.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to you which purports to have been recorded on November 25, 1963, by Mr. Howard, I would like to have that identified by the reporter and then give you another copy that you can compare, and I would like to ask you just a few questions about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I hand you back the 28-page reported interview that I just referred to that has just been marked Exhibit 270 and ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your testimony?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this is the document I am referring to.

Mr. RANKIN. That you just said you did not give that interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. And I will finish something, too, Mr. Mark R. Lane called and I told Mr. Mark Lane about the Secret Service man. He knows about this, many know about this, I have witnesses by this.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by this?

Mrs. OSWALD. About this man, Mr. Howard.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. But not that you said that you did not give this interview.

Mrs. OSWALD. Pardon?

Mr. RANKIN. When you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you did not give this interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. They knew that I didn't testify, I am sorry. But Mr. Mark Lane called me the morning that I was to--the day I was supposed to leave Fort Worth to come to Washington, sir, and I said to Mr. Mark Lane, "I am not going in the car with Mr. Mike Howard." and there was another Mr. Howard by the way who came there that day. I don't know whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the day I was going to leave for Washington, and I said, "Lane, I am scared to death." He says "Don't worry. I will call Mr. Walden, who is the Star Telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and Mr. Mark Lane called Mr. Walden of the Star Telegram and asked him to accompany me and Mr. Walden did accompany me with these two Secret Service men to the airport and when Mr. Walden entered my home I told him I am so glad you are here because I didn't want to go with this agent by myself.

And this is the same agent now--Chief Justice are you interested enough for me to tell you a little more?

The CHAIRMAN. About this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell what you wish about it.

Mrs. OSWALD. We are going to go back now a little bit and then you will see the pattern. At the end of the Six Flags; I will make it as short as possible and when everything was Mama and we were going to live together and I told you they took her from me and I didn't see her, then Marina's testimony started to change, sir. Marina's testimony was not this testimony the first 3 days.

I have testified, and she has testified differently than me. I don't know of all of her testimony but the first 3 days, this was not her husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't her husband's rifle. She was going to live with her Mama and everything was fine and then when I told you the way they did, then Marina turned against her Mama, you no have work, and from that time Marina has been changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, Marina has been changing to a different personality.

Her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as I said today. I am not saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. This is a Russian girl, I know she lived with me 1 month, how untouched of worldly things she was, and I mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that I didn't feel like I wanted to go into but that I couldn't overlook.

Sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two together what I have been trying to say. This man, along with the other one that I have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and Marina Oswald, yes, Marina Oswald has changed completely.

She made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever been and people have written, her husband is only gone 2 months.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this Exhibit 270, you understand, is a transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. But I was never taped, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. We have asked, Mr. Chairman, that the tape be sent over so that it can be heard, if you wish.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you mean.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. It is on its way over.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. I have stated previously, if I was taped it was during a conversation going on that they taped me. I have never sat down and been taped, sir. I don't think I am out of my mind, I wonder why.

The CHAIRMAN. May I see this.

Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Max Phillips, who is a Secret Service agent brought a dictaphone into my home, on Thomas Place, when I left Six Flags, and I saw it connected and Mr. Jim Cox of the Star Telegram can prove that I disconnected it. When I was telling Mr. Jim Cox my story about putting my children into a Lutheran home and I thought it was a personal story that had nothing to do with this particular case I disconnected the tape recorder.

Mr. Max Phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know I do a lot of talking. And I never did sit down.

Mr. RANKIN. This was a tape recording at the Six Flags.

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. It purports to be. You understand that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I understand that thoroughly.

I would like to produce some other evidence that I have also to this Commission. I have, as Mr. Doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few recordings on it, and there are several, two, I believe. Mr. Sorrels' recordings on that. I found it necessary, because my mail was being opened, my mail, I have reported to the Postal Inspections, I have stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, and, sir, believe me they were, and when I was a lone woman I would say something I was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what I was talking about I started to decide I needed some evidence too and Mr. Sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, I have him on tape, and I have Mr. Thorne on tape about my mail being opened. I have some other evidence.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever transcribed that?

Mrs. OSWALD. No sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you transcribe that and send us copies of it?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. That is a very long document. I was never questioned and answered.

The CHAIRMAN. It would hardly seem possible, Mrs. Oswald, that unless this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are exactly what you have told us.

Mrs. OSWALD. Exactly what I have told you, sir, I have been in the news continuously, I have made the same statements over and over in magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not news to anybody.

And as a matter of fact, I was taped, oh, this might be a point, I was taped at my first press conference which was at the Fort Worth Press Club which I talked approximately 2 hours, and there was a tape recorder there. I talked over 2 hours at that press conference.

Mr. RANKIN. This is question and answer?

For instance, and I am looking at page 18, there are different questions and answers.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as I say, because I have been in the public eye and I have all of these things public.

These things have been made public.

Mr. RANKIN. This purports to be following the tape recording as to your son Robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert gave a tape recording, I told you, and so did Marina and I was not asked to be tape recorded.

I myself asked to give testimony and I did give about 5- or 10-minutes testimony that I say again that I ended up with now all my thoughts are gone, I see my son crying, a very short, and if I remember correctly, I started with the defection. I do know because I said "Robert doesn't know anything about my trip to Washington. He wasn't interested and maybe he should listen to my testimony." And I got not far from it when Robert cried and that ended that testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. We will take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step out. That is perfectly all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. One thing, of course I am not supposed to tell you what to do, I know and I don't mean to, Chief Justice, but since this man was reassigned to guard me in Fort Worth I would like to know if he was free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to Fort Worth to guard me for this trip? Because it is the same man, understand?

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I think in regard to that I had better state on the record we had nothing to do, that is the Commission or myself, about the selection of any of the personnel. We just asked the Secret Service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer is to your question.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Rankin, you may continue.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we are ready to play now and it starts out with Robert Oswald's testimony or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription states at the head of it, and I think it might be helpful if we just start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(Playing of tape recording.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, this is about 3 pages out of around between 13 and 14 of your son's transcription. Do you recognize your son's voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I have to listen really, it is a recorder, I am sure, but I have to, you know, listen, that story is right. There are two discrepancies so far as dates.

Mr. RANKIN. But you do recognize it? It sounds like him?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it sounds like him. It is the recorder.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and I want the time on it.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. That would be how many pages? About the 2 months he made an error, it is June 13 and they were in my home with me by July 14.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your voice on the tape?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours.

Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear "Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes approximately at the Inn of Six Flags.

I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours that I talked at this press club.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say the things that you say here?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. In answer to these questions?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. At the press club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours.

Mr. RANKIN. And you didn't say it to this agent?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying, and I said I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is right.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was there a little child like that at this----

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a little child crying all during the rest of the testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where you gave your press conference?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just saying, because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there.

What they can do with that tape, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at the Fort Worth Press Club?

Mrs. OSWALD. Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes at the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we play for just a few minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 minutes, please.

Mrs. OSWALD. After you start may I say something else?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. All of this here I have said and also said in my home and I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I say. They splice.

Mr. RANKIN. But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a job to splice in each one of those questions.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, the assassination of the President of the United States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth while, yes, sir, I realize that.

Mr. RANKIN. Let's try a little more.

(Transcription played.)

Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to say anything more about this?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me."

Is that remark in this any place?

Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall that it is.

Mrs. OSWALD. Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated and was said and that is when I stopped the conversation at the Inn of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a minister and I said, "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I have testified was approximately 10 minutes.

Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over 2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you already have here.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this place as it was at this hotel, was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the same voices are in it there?

(Transcription played.)

Mrs. OSWALD. I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor that he put me on there.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his voice, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is your voice?

Mrs. OSWALD. That is my voice.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. But I am not going to vary from my story.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Play just the last part.

Mrs. OSWALD. The last 25 minutes.

Mr. RANKIN. These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13.

(Transcription played.)

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your voice.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you think there is any need for any more?

The CHAIRMAN. I don't see any need for going any further with it.

Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we will just have to leave it where it is.

I don't see any other answer to it.

Mrs. OSWALD. All right.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I have shown you during a recess what has been marked as Exhibit 271, and you have examined the handwriting of that exhibit.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And the various letters there. Can you tell us whether or not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. It looks like his handwriting, I would say so. I am not handwriting expert. It looks very much like his writing.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you. We offer in evidence Exhibit 271.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.

(The document was received in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 271.)

Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mr. Doyle, that you have examined the original documents of Exhibits 244 through 257, and compared them with the photostatic copies that have been marked.

Mr. DOYLE. I have.

Mr. RANKIN. And stipulate for the record that the photostats are correct, of the originals, is that agreeable?

Mr. DOYLE. I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I have nothing further unless Mrs. Oswald has something or Mr. Doyle cares to interrogate Mrs. Oswald about anything.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, do you have anything more you want to say?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't have anything more. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Doyle, do you have anything to say?

Mr. DOYLE. I have no further questions, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Oswald, for appearing voluntarily before the Commission and giving your testimony, and Mr. Doyle, I want to express the appreciation of the Commission for the help you have been to Mrs. Oswald and to the Commission in representing her on this occasion. We know that it disrupted your week very badly. We know that you responded to this call for public service on a moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that.

My own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the Commission.

Mr. DOYLE. Thank you, Your Honor. I assume that my designation was for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have finished my job.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Unless Mrs. Oswald should like to ask you some questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, I think that will be all.

Mr. DOYLE. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you both.

Mrs. OSWALD. You and I are through as attorney and client?

Mr. DOYLE. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. This will not be pursued any further?

Mr. DOYLE. Unless you have some questions, thank you.

Mrs. OSWALD. Gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. I thank you very much for inviting me here.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing this further because I have told important people about this particular incident and I say it is correct and I hope you will continue while I am gone not just to ignore what I have said.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Oswald, you misjudge the Commission when you say we will not pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Fine, I don't know, I am asking.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure we will pursue it further.

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, and I have more people that I could call. I have told Mr. Doyle the people.

Would you like me to name the people on the record for you? Mr. Lane, I called Mr. Lane----

The CHAIRMAN. To what purpose are you naming these people?

Mrs. OSWALD. To the purpose that Mr. Mike Howard who came to Fort Worth last week to protect me, I called these people and told them how concerned I was that he was the one.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have told us what you told them, so that we have it here in the record now.

We are adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Thursday, February 20, 1964

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWARD LEE OSWALD

The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

I will make a brief statement for the benefit of Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, so you will know just what this is about.

On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11130, appointing a Commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination."

On December 13, 1963, Congress adopted Joint Resolution S.J. 137, which authorizes the Commission or any member of the Commission or any agent or agency designated by the Commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence.

On January 21, 1964, the Commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the Commission, and its General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the Commission.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. Robert Oswald, the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of President Kennedy.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the Commission to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions concerning Lee Harvey Oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination.

The Commission also intends to ask Mr. Robert Oswald questions relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. Mr. Robert Oswald has also been furnished with a copy of Executive Order No. 11130, and Congressional Resolution S.J. No. 137, which set forth the general scope of the Commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence.

That is just for your general information, Mr. Oswald.

You are here with your attorney, Mr. McKenzie.

Would you state your name for the Commission?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice and members of the Commission, my name is William A. McKenzie. Our office is 631 Fidelity Union Life Building, Dallas, Tex. I am a member of the State Bar of Texas and licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of that State.

The CHAIRMAN. And you are here to advise and represent Mr. Robert Oswald?

Mr. McKENZIE. I am here to advise and represent Mr. Oswald. And I might state, further, that Mr. Oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the Commission might desire to ask of him.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

There are present at the Commission this morning Mr. Allen Dulles, Commissioner, and myself. I will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the Supreme Court, but in my absence Mr. Allen Dulles will conduct the hearing.

Mr. Oswald, would you please rise and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify?

Mr. OSWALD. I do.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. In coming down to the Commission's hearing room, I left part of my file in Mr. Jenner's office, and I have asked Mr. Liebeler if he will step out and get the file.

The CHAIRMAN. You would like to wait for that?

Mr. McKENZIE. If you don't mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that Mr. Albert Jenner, one of the associate counsel for the Commission, will conduct the examination this morning.

Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.

I would like to state for the record that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler this morning a letter dated February 17, 1964, dictated by myself, but signed by Robert L. Oswald and witnessed by Pete White, Joan Connelly, and Henry Baer, which I would like for the Commission to have a copy of, and which I furnished to the Commission.

And, further, that I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler, counsel for the Commission, a letter dated February 18, 1964, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly.

The reason that I furnish these letters to the Commission I think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent.

And, further, I have furnished to Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebeler letters dated February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, 11611 Farrar, Dallas, Tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Katherine Ford, a copy of which I furnished to Mr. Lee Rankin, counsel for the Commission; and a letter of like date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. John M. Thorne, Thorne and Leach, Attorneys and Counselors-at-Law, of Grand Prairie, Tex., signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford.

I furnish these to the Commission for the Commission's information.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. McKenzie.

Is there anything, Mr. McKenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? It is very informal.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, I will say this. This is the first time I have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner?

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

May I suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number.

The first letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is the letter dated February 17, 1964, addressed to Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mr. Robert L. Oswald, witnessed by Mr. Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Peter White. That will be marked Commission Exhibit No. 272.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 272, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The second letter mentioned by Mr. McKenzie is dated February 18, 1964, also addressed to Mr. McKenzie, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Declan P. Ford, Katherine N. Ford, and Joan Connelly. That will be marked Commission Exhibit 273.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 273, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next letter is dated February 18, 1964, and addressed to Mr. James H. Martin, identified by Mr. McKenzie, and signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford. Two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 274 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, February 18, 1964, addressed to Mr. Thorne, John M. Thorne, signed by Mrs. Marina N. Oswald, and witnessed by Mrs. Katherine Ford, two pages.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 275 for identification.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may at this time, I would like to make one other statement to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you do that, may I ask if you want those introduced into evidence?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 272 through 275, inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 272 through 275, inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from--dating from 1959 through 1962, from Lee Harvey Oswald to Robert L. Oswald, together with some copies of a contract between Mr. Oswald--Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, John Thorne, and James Martin. We bring those voluntarily and gladly. I would like to give them to the Commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person.

Mr. McKENZIE. I understand that, sir. And the only reason I make that stipulation is for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. With the understanding that the Commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the Executive order.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. And for no other purpose.

Mr. McKENZIE. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right. Either way you want to do it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Whichever way the Commission would prefer.

But we have started making copies this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, then. You may do it that way.

Mr. Jenner, I guess you may proceed.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

We have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. And as I identify the documents, I will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and I will so indicate at the appropriate moment.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Dulles--we have had a very short session with Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. And we have explained to Mr. Oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers Lee Harvey Oswald's entire life, and I added it also covered Mr. Oswald's life.

At times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to Mr. McKenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. But we are covering the entire lives.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And you reside now where?

Mr. OSWALD. At 1009 Sierra Drive, Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present business or occupation?

Mr. OSWALD. I am employed by the Acme Brick Co. in the capacity of sales coordinator.

Mr. JENNER. What city or town?

Mr. OSWALD. Denton, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of your employment by that company?

Mr. OSWALD. I am in the market department of the Acme Brick Co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been so employed by the Acme Brick Co.?

Mr. OSWALD. April of this year, 1964, will be 4 years.

Mr. JENNER. And I think it might be helpful at this point--what is the date of your birth?

Mr. OSWALD. April 7, 1934, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell me how many years old you are?

Mr. OSWALD. I will be 30 years old April 7, 1964.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jenner, if you excuse me now, I am going to attend a session of the Supreme Court. And if you are here this afternoon, I will be back to be with you.

Mr. DULLES (presiding). You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you. Mr. Dulles.

Would you identify your family--Mrs. Oswald, and your two fine children?

Mr. OSWALD. Thank you. My wife's name is Vada Marie Oswald. My daughter's name is Cathy Marie Oswald, and my son's name is Robert Lee Edward Oswald, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. The ages?

Mr. OSWALD. Cathy is 6 years old, and Robert Lee will be 3 years old this April.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give us Mrs. Oswald's maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. Vada Marie Mercer.

Mr. JENNER. She is a native of your present town?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. She is from Keeter, Tex. My wife was raised on a farm. This community is located close to Boyd, Tex., which is approximately 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Your father's full name?

Mr. OSWALD. Robert Edward Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Edward?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he is now deceased?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as I recall, he died in August of 1939.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. You were then about what--5 years old?

Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother is Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her middle name?

Mr. OSWALD. Claverie.

Mr. JENNER. And what was her maiden name?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. I think it was Claverie. You have a brother, John Pic?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. John Edward Pic.

Mr. JENNER. And he is a stepbrother?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And born of a marriage of your mother with whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. He is a half brother.

Mr. McKENZIE. He is a half brother, Mr. Jenner.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. But I am probably in error. A half brother.

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry. I didn't hear the next question.

Mr. JENNER. That is all right. You correct me when I am wrong. Don't hesitate to do that.

Your half brother's father was whom?

Mr. OSWALD. This I do not know. I don't know his full name.

Mr. JENNER. Was it John, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. I would be of the opinion it was John.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever met him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. JENNER. You never had any acquaintance with him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might further say I don't believe I have ever seen a picture identified as being John's father.

Mr. DULLES. You are speaking of the father now?

Mr. JENNER. That is correct, sir.

And your half brother, John Pic, is older than you, is he not?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you happen to recall his age?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he is now 33 years old. His birthday is January 17, 1932.

Mr. JENNER. During your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And as boys, the family lived together?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your mother, Mrs. Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was married a third time, was she not?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Edwin, I believe his middle initial was M. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. When did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. 1944 or early '45.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present on that occasion?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. JENNER. Had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I certainly did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the general circumstances?

Mr. OSWALD. Well, we was residing at Dallas, Tex. I don't recall the address. It was Victor Street.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "we"----

Mr. OSWALD. It was my mother, John Edward Pic, myself, and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Residing at the Victor Street address, in Dallas, Tex. I recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now I can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. But she was employed?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I do recall that this was quite a large house. It was a two-story house. And she was renting apartments.

Mr. JENNER. Serving as a rental agent?

Mr. OSWALD. No. She owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this house. I believe there were two upstairs apartments.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed--that is independently from----

Mr. OSWALD. I believe so, sir. Where, I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. And at that time all three of you boys were attending--would that be elementary school at that time?

Mr. OSWALD. Elementary school, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. OSWALD. Lee was not.

Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?

Mr. OSWALD. This would have been prior to Lee's sixth birthday, I believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. But you and your brother John were?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell the Commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. We are not going to probe into this in any great length. But we would like the background and flavor in which the family lived.

Start as early as you have any reasonable recollection.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

I believe after my father's death in 1939, John was attending elementary school. We lived at the corner of Alvar and Galvez, in New Orleans, La. And the school was right across the street from us, elementary school.

John, of course, started----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir.

Did I ask you where you were born?

Mr. OSWALD. No, you did not.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state that?

Mr. OSWALD. I was born in New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Excuse the interruption.

Mr. OSWALD. John attended the school approximately 2 years before I started elementary school. And during this time, the way I remember it, it was a frame building. But by the time I attended first grade it was a brick school building.

I do not recall attending for a very long period, because I believe----

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of the elementary school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if I may interrupt at this time--Robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as you possibly can.

Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. The names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall.

Mr. OSWALD. I believe I was at the point that I don't recall attending this school very much. I perhaps was there the first full year. However, approximately around this time--this would be in 1941--mother placed John Edward and myself in a Catholic school, which I do not recall the name of, but it was located in Algiers, La.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Just across the Mississippi River from New Orleans proper.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question, Mr. Jenner?

In this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were living there all the time?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Or were you going home?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we were living there.

Lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. I don't recall any address particularly at that time. We were at the Catholic school for approximately 1 year.

Mr. JENNER. That would take you to 1942.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

And, at that time we were moved by mother from the Catholic school and placed into the Bethlehem Orphan Home, in New Orleans, La.

We used to refer to it as the BOH.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, if I interrupt you at that point.

That would be 1942?

Mr. OSWALD. The best I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was only 3 years old. So the "we" did not include Lee, is that correct, sir?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. It included John Edward and myself.

Mr. JENNER. As Mr. Dulles inquired of you at the Catholic school--was this an orphan home in which both you and John lived at the home?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Twenty-four hours a day?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where did Lee reside during this period of your life?

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall the address at that particular time.

I might state that I know mother had sold the house on Alvar and Galvez Streets in New Orleans, and they were living elsewhere, I remember the house, but I cannot remember the address.

Mr. JENNER. I was particularly interested in whether Lee was living with your mother.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He was at this time living with mother. And it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep Lee at this early age.

Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, she was employed.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was she also employed during the 1 year when you boys were at the Catholic school?

Mr. OSWALD. I am sure--I feel sure she was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could we say, except as I might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in August of 1939, at least until the time of her marriage with Mr. Ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we certainly can.

Mr. JENNER. She was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

I interrupted you--pardon me.

You and John entered the Bethlehem Orphan Home. Would you describe to us the nature of that school?

Mr. OSWALD. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Was it a public or private institution?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say it was a private home. The atmosphere generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--I recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. The cafeteria was located----

Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? Was it 50, 100, 200?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say around 75 to 100, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So you are now about 8 years old, am I correct?

Mr. OSWALD. 1942--that would be correct, sir.

The cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. The school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. There was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory.

Mr. McKENZIE. The home itself was located in New Orleans, is that correct?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. In the city proper, rather than a suburb?

Mr. OSWALD. I would say that was so, sir. I still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the St. Charles Street carline at that particular time.

My recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it was nice, I had a lot of friends there at the home. It was a Christian atmosphere.

Going back to the Catholic school--we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that.

But here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. It was generally a Christian atmosphere there. He treated us well, I might add--better than the Catholic school did. They were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there?

Was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school?

Mr. OSWALD. I don't believe it was a denominational school. I believe it was a public--I feel it was a private school or home. But that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. It might have been just a Protestant home.

Mr. JENNER. I am curious, if I may, Mr. Dulles--the name of this school or home is the Bethlehem Orphan Home. But neither of you boys was an orphan.

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. Therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. I think I have read somewhere--I would like to ask, if I may--I understand there had to be only one parent, though. I don't think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. I don't know where I read that, but I recollect that.

Is that the case, do you remember?

Mr. OSWALD. My recollection on that, sir, was that I do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. But that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you entered in 1942. Did you and John continue in this school--for what period of time?

Mr. OSWALD. Until we moved to Dallas, in 1944, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that, has Mr. Oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you visited by your mother and Lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and John were in the Bethlehem Orphan Home?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were. I do recall quite vividly that on Wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months only--that John and I would go to downtown New Orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. And at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on Canal Street. I don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to inform the Commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? Did your mother visit you on weekends? Were you free to return home and spend the weekend? Describe that, please.

Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, I should say, that we visited mother. Normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. I do not recall--I have been thinking about this--seeing Lee too often at that time.

Mr. JENNER. You and John would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know we did. I cannot remember it too clearly.

But I would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you moved to Dallas in 1944?

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to Dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with Lee, if any? Was there an event that is now etched on your mind?

Mr. OSWALD. I would like to back up there just a little bit.

Lee was placed at the Bethlehem Orphan Home for approximately the last year that we were there.

Mr. JENNER. That would be, then, 1943?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. DULLES. He would have been 4 to 5 years old then?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was born in October 1939. So he would then be approximately 4--well, when he was placed in Bethlehem Home it was some time during the year 1943, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate to the Commission the circumstances that brought that about? What do you recall as to why?

Mr. OSWALD. My opinion on that, sir, was this. That mother had wanted to bring Lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. I mean there was no nursery there that I recall. And there was no very young children. When I say very young--say under 3 years old.

I remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, Mr. Oswald, your mother put Lee in the orphan home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the Bethlehem Orphan Home in that respect.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did she come to visit the home when Lee was placed in the home?

If I may, you recall you said you were free on Wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and John would go into the New Orleans town district and visit your mother.

Did she come to see Lee? Does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit?

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