Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 2 (of 16)
ABRIDGMENT OF THE DEBATES OF CONGRESS,
FROM 1789 TO 1856.
FROM GALES AND SEATON'S ANNALS OF CONGRESS; FROM THEIR REGISTER OF DEBATES; AND FROM THE OFFICIAL REPORTED DEBATES, BY JOHN C. RIVES.
BY
THE AUTHOR OF THE THIRTY YEARS' VIEW.
VOL II.
NEW YORK: D. APPLETON AND COMPANY, 448 AND 445 BROADWAY. LONDON: 16 LITTLE BRITAIN. 1861.
ENTERED according to Act of Congress, in the year 1856, by D. APPLETON AND COMPANY, in the Clerk's Office of the District Court for the Southern District of New York.
FOURTH CONGRESS.--SECOND SESSION.
BEGUN AT THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA, DECEMBER 5, 1796.
PROCEEDINGS IN THE SENATE.
MONDAY, December 5, 1796.
PRESENT:
JOHN ADAMS, Vice President of the United States, and President of the Senate.
JOHN LANGDON and SAMUEL LIVERMORE, from New Hampshire.
BENJAMIN GOODHUE, from Massachusetts.
WILLIAM BRADFORD, from Rhode Island.
JAMES HILLHOUSE and URIAH TRACY, from Connecticut.
ELIJAH PAINE, and ISAAC TICHENOR, from Vermont.
JOHN RUTHERFORD and RICHARD STOCKTON, from New Jersey.
WILLIAM BINGHAM, from Pennsylvania.
HENRY LATIMER, from Delaware.
HUMPHREY MARSHALL, from Kentucky.
WILLIAM COCKE, from Tennessee.
JACOB READ, from South Carolina.
JAMES GUNN, from Georgia.
The number of Senators present not being sufficient to constitute a quorum, they adjourned to 11 o'clock to-morrow morning.
TUESDAY, December 6.
ALEXANDER MARTIN, from the State of North Carolina, and WILLIAM BLOUNT, from the State of Tennessee, severally attended.
The VICE PRESIDENT communicated a letter from PIERCE BUTLER, notifying the resignation of his seat in the Senate, which was read.
The credentials of the after-named Senators were severally read:--Of BENJAMIN GOODHUE, appointed a Senator by the State of Massachusetts, in place of GEORGE CABOT, resigned; of ISAAC TICHENOR, appointed a Senator by the State of Vermont, in place of MOSES ROBINSON, resigned; of JAMES HILLHOUSE, appointed a Senator by the State of Connecticut in place of OLIVER ELLSWORTH, whose seat is become vacant; of URIAH TRACY, appointed a Senator by the State of Connecticut, in place of JONATHAN TRUMBULL, resigned; of JOHN LAURANCE, appointed a Senator by the State of New York, in place of RUFUS KING, whose seat is become vacant; of RICHARD STOCKTON, appointed a Senator by the State of New Jersey, in place of FREDERICK FRELINGHUYSEN, resigned; also, of WILLIAM BLOUNT and WILLIAM COCKE, appointed Senators by the State of Tennessee;--and, the oath required by law being respectively administered to them, they took their seats in the Senate.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that a quorum of the House of Representatives is assembled, and ready to proceed to business.
Ordered, That the Secretary wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and acquaint him that a quorum of the Senate is assembled.
Ordered, That the Secretary acquaint the House of Representatives that a quorum of the Senate is assembled, and ready to proceed to business.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they have appointed a joint committee, on their part, together with such committee as the Senate may appoint, to wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and notify him that a quorum of the two Houses is assembled, and ready to receive any communications that he may be pleased to make to them.
Resolved, That the Senate concur in the above resolution, and that Messrs. READ and LIVERMORE be the joint committee on the part of the Senate.
Ordered, That the Secretary acquaint the House of Representatives therewith.
Mr. READ reported, from the joint committee appointed for that purpose, that they had waited on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and had notified him that a quorum of the two Houses of Congress are assembled, and that the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES acquainted the committee that he would meet the two Houses in the Representatives' Chamber, at twelve o'clock to-morrow.
WEDNESDAY, December 7.
JOHN HENRY, from the State of Maryland, attended.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they are now ready to meet the Senate in the Chamber of that House, to receive such communications as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES shall be pleased to make to them.
Whereupon, the Senate repaired to the Chamber of the House of Representatives, for the purpose above expressed.
The Senate returned to their own Chamber, and a copy of the Speech of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, this day addressed to both Houses of Congress, was read. [For which, see the proceedings in the House of Representatives of December 7, post.]
Ordered, That Messrs. READ, TRACY, and BINGHAM, be a committee to report the draft of an Address to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, in answer to his Speech this day to both Houses of Congress.
It was further ordered that the Speech of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, this day communicated to both Houses, be printed for the use of the Senate.
Resolved, That each Senator be supplied, during the present session, with copies of three such newspapers printed in any of the States as he may choose, provided that the same are furnished at the rate of the usual annual charge for such papers.
THURSDAY, December 8.
JOHN LAURANCE, from the State of New York, attended, and, the oath required by law being administered to him, he took his seat in the Senate.
Ordered, That Messrs. STOCKTON, READ, and BINGHAM, be a committee to inquire whether any, and what, regulations are proper to be made, on the subject of the resignation of a Senator of the United States.
FRIDAY, December 9.
TIMOTHY BLOODWORTH, from the State of North Carolina, attended.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they have resolved that two Chaplains be appointed to Congress for the present session--one by each House--who shall interchange weekly; in which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
Whereupon, the Senate
Resolved, That they do concur therein, and that the Right Reverend Bishop WHITE be Chaplain on the part of the Senate.
Mr. READ, from the committee appointed for the purpose, reported the draft of an Address to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress, at the opening of the session; which was read.
On motion that it be printed for the use of the Senate, it passed in the negative.
On motion, it was agreed to consider the report in paragraphs; and, after debate, a motion was made for recommitment, which passed in the negative; and, having agreed to amend the report, the further consideration thereof was postponed.
SATURDAY, December 10.
Address to the President.
The Senate resumed the consideration of the report of the committee in answer to the Address of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to both Houses of Congress; and, after further amendments, it was unanimously adopted, as follows:
We thank you, sir, for your faithful and detailed exposure of the existing situation of our country; and we sincerely join in sentiments of gratitude to an overruling Providence for the distinguished share of public prosperity and private happiness which the people of the United States so peculiarly enjoy.
We are fully sensible of the advantages that have resulted from the adoption of measures (which you have successfully carried into effect) to preserve peace, cultivate friendship, and promote civilization, amongst the Indian tribes on the Western frontiers; feelings of humanity, and the most solid political interests, equally encourage the continuance of this system.
We observe, with pleasure, that the delivery of the military posts, lately occupied by the British forces, within the territory of the United States, was made with cordiality and promptitude, as soon as circumstances would admit; and that the other provisions of our treaties with Great Britain and Spain, that were objects of eventual arrangement, are about being carried into effect, with entire harmony and good faith.
The unfortunate but unavoidable difficulties that opposed a timely compliance with the terms of the Algerine Treaty, are much to be lamented; as they may occasion a temporary suspension of the advantages to be derived from a solid peace with that power, and a perfect security from its predatory warfare; at the same time, the lively impressions that affected the public mind on the redemption of our captive fellow-citizens, afford the most laudable incentive to our exertions to remove the remaining obstacles.
We perfectly coincide with you in opinion, that the importance of our commerce demands a naval force for its protection against foreign insult and depredation, and our solicitude to attain that object will be always proportionate to its magnitude.
The necessity of accelerating the establishment of certain useful manufactures, by the intervention of the Legislative aid and protection, and the encouragement due to agriculture by the creation of Boards, (composed of intelligent individuals,) to patronize this primary pursuit of society, are subjects which will readily engage our most serious attention.
A National University may be converted to the most useful purposes; the science of legislation being so essentially dependent on the endowments of the mind, the public interests must receive effectual aid from the general diffusion of knowledge; and the United States will assume a more dignified station among the nations of the earth, by the successful cultivation of the higher branches of literature.
A Military Academy may be likewise rendered equally important. To aid and direct the physical force of the nation, by cherishing a military spirit, enforcing a proper sense of discipline, and inculcating a scientific system of tactics, is consonant to the soundest maxims of public policy. Connected with, and supported by such an establishment, a well regulated militia, constituting the natural defence of the country, would prove the most effectual, as well as economical, preservative of peace.
We cannot but consider, with serious apprehensions, the inadequate compensations of the public officers, especially of those in the more important stations. It is not only a violation of the spirit of a public contract, but is an evil so extensive in its operation, and so destructive in its consequences, that we trust it will receive the most pointed Legislative attention.
We sincerely lament that, whilst the conduct of the United Sates has been uniformly impressed with the character of equity, moderation, and love of peace, in the maintenance of all their foreign relationships, our trade should be so harassed by the cruisers and agents of the Republic of France, throughout the extensive departments of the West Indies.
Whilst we are confident that no cause of complaint exists that could authorize an interruption of our tranquillity or disengage that Republic from the bonds of amity, cemented by the faith of treaties, we cannot but express our deepest regrets that official communications have been made to you, indicating a more serious disturbance of our commerce. Although we cherish the expectation that a sense of justice, and a consideration of our mutual interests, will moderate their councils, we are not unmindful of the situation in which events may place us, nor unprepared to adopt that system of conduct, which, compatible with the dignity of a respectable nation, necessity may compel us to pursue.
We cordially acquiesce in the reflection, that the United States, under the operation of the Federal Government, have experienced a most rapid aggrandizement and prosperity, as well political as commercial.
Whilst contemplating the causes that produce this auspicious result, we must acknowledge the excellence of the constitutional system, and the wisdom of the Legislative provisions; but we should be deficient in gratitude and justice did we not attribute a great portion of these advantages to the virtue, firmness, and talents of your Administration--which have been conspicuously displayed in the most trying times, and on the most critical occasions. It is, therefore, with the sincerest regret that we now receive an official notification of your intentions to retire from the public employment of your country.
When we review the various scenes of your public life, so long and so successfully devoted to the most arduous services, civil and military, as well during the struggles of the American Revolution, as the convulsive periods of a recent date; we cannot look forward to your retirement without our warmest affections and most anxious regards accompanying you, and without mingling with our fellow-citizens at large in the sincerest wishes for your personal happiness that sensibility and attachment can express.
The most effectual consolation that can offer for the loss we are about to sustain, arises from the animating reflection, that the influence of your example will extend to your successors, and the United States thus continue to enjoy an able, upright, and energetic Administration.
JOHN ADAMS, Vice President of the United States, and President of the Senate.
Ordered, That the committee who prepared the Address, wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and desire him to acquaint the Senate at what time and place it will be most convenient for him that it should be presented.
Mr. READ reported from the committee, that they had waited on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and that he would receive the Address of the Senate on Monday next, at twelve o'clock, at his own house. Whereupon,
Resolved, That the Senate will, on Monday next, at twelve o'clock, wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES accordingly.
MONDAY, December 12.
THEODORE FOSTER, from the State of Rhode Island; JOHN BROWN, from the State of Kentucky; and HENRY TAZEWELL, from the State of Virginia, severally attended.
Address to the President.
Agreeably to the resolution of the 10th instant, the Senate waited on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and the VICE PRESIDENT, in their name, presented the Address then agreed to.
To which the PRESIDENT made the following reply:
GENTLEMEN: It affords me great satisfaction to find in your Address a concurrence in sentiment with me on the various topics which I presented for your information and deliberation; and that the latter will receive from you an attention proportioned to their respective importance.
For the notice you take of my public services, civil and military, and your kind wishes for my personal happiness, I beg you to accept my cordial thanks. Those services, and greater, had I possessed ability to render them, were due to the unanimous calls of my country, and its approbation is my abundant reward.
When contemplating the period of my retirement, I saw virtuous and enlightened men, among whom I relied on the discernment and patriotism of my fellow-citizens to make the proper choice of a successor; men who would require no influential example to ensure to the United States "an able, upright, and energetic Administration." To such men I shall cheerfully yield the palm of genius and talents to serve our common country; but, at the same time, I hope I may be indulged in expressing the consoling reflection, (which consciousness suggests,) and to bear it with me to my grave, that none can serve it with purer intentions than I have done, or with a more disinterested zeal.
G. WASHINGTON.
The Senate returned to their own Chamber, and then adjourned.
WEDNESDAY, December 21.
THEODORE SEDGWICK, appointed a Senator by the State of Massachusetts, in place of CALEB STRONG, resigned, attended, produced his credentials, and the oath required by law being administered to him, he took his seat in the Senate.
TUESDAY, December 27.
JOHN EAGER HOWARD, appointed a Senator by the State of Maryland, in place of RICHARD POTTS, resigned, produced his credentials, and the oath required by law being administered, he took his seat in the Senate.
JOSIAH TATTNALL, from the State of Georgia, attended.
WEDNESDAY, December 28.
JAMES ROSS, from the State of Pennsylvania, attended.
WEDNESDAY, January 11, 1797.
JOHN VINING, from the State of Delaware, attended.
THURSDAY, January 12.
AARON BURR, from the State of New York, and STEVENS THOMSON MASON, from the State of Virginia, attended.
FRIDAY, January 27.
JOHN HUNTER, appointed a Senator by the State of South Carolina, in place of PIERCE BUTLER, resigned, attended, produced his credentials, and the oath required by law, being administered to him, he took his seat in the Senate.
THURSDAY, February 2.
MR. SEDGWICK reported, from the joint committee appointed on the part of the Senate, on the subject of the election of PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT, that, in their opinion, the following resolution ought to be adopted, viz:
"That the two Houses shall assemble in the Chamber of the House of Representatives on Wednesday next, at twelve o'clock; that one person be appointed a teller on the part of the Senate, to make a list of the votes as they shall be declared: That the result shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall announce the state of the vote and the persons elected, to the two Houses assembled as aforesaid; which shall be deemed a declaration of the persons elected President and Vice President, and, together with a list of votes, be entered on the journals of the two Houses."
WEDNESDAY, February 8.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they are ready to meet the Senate in the Chamber of that House, agreeably to the report of the joint committee, to attend the opening and examining the votes of the Electors for PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, as the constitution provides.
The two Houses of Congress accordingly assembled in the Representatives' Chamber, and the certificates of the Electors of sixteen States were, by the VICE PRESIDENT, opened and delivered to the tellers, appointed for the purpose, who, having examined and ascertained the number of votes, presented a list thereof to the VICE PRESIDENT, which was read as follows:
For John Adams, 71 votes; for Thomas Jefferson, 68; for Thomas Pinckney, 59; for Aaron Burr, 30; for Samuel Adams, 15; for Oliver Ellsworth, 11; for George Clinton, 7; for John Jay, 5; for James Iredell 2; for George Washington, 2; for John Henry, 2; for Samuel Johnson, 2; for Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, 1;
Whereupon the VICE PRESIDENT addressed the two Houses of Congress as follows:
In obedience to the Constitution and law of the United States, and to the commands of both Houses of Congress, expressed in their resolution passed in the present session, I now declare that
JOHN ADAMS is elected President of the United States, for four years, to commence with the fourth day of March next; and that
THOMAS JEFFERSON is elected Vice President of the United States, for four years, to commence with the fourth day of March next. And may the Sovereign of the Universe, the ordainer of civil government on earth, for the preservation of liberty, justice, and peace among men, enable both to discharge the duties of these offices conformably to the Constitution of the United States, with conscientious diligence, punctuality, and perseverance.
The VICE PRESIDENT then delivered the votes of the Electors to the Secretary of the Senate, the two Houses of Congress separated, and the Senate returned to their own Chamber, and soon after adjourned.
THURSDAY, February 9.
The VICE PRESIDENT laid before the Senate the following communication:
Gentlemen of the Senate:
In consequence of the declaration made yesterday in the Chamber of the House of Representatives of the election of a President and Vice President of the United States, the record of which has just now been read from your journal by your Secretary, I have judged it proper to give notice that, on the 4th of March next at 12 o'clock I propose, to attend again in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, in order to take the oath prescribed by the Constitution of the United States to be taken by the President, to be administered by the Chief Justice or such other Judge of the Supreme Court of the United States as can most conveniently attend; and, in case none of those Judges can attend, by the Judge of the District of Pennsylvania, before such Senators and Representatives of the United States as may find it convenient to honor the transaction with their presence.
Ordered, That the Secretary carry an attested copy of this communication to the House of Representatives.
Ordered, That Messrs. SEDGWICK, TAZEWELL, and READ, be a joint committee, with such committee as may be appointed on the part of the House of Representatives, to consider whether any, and if any, what measures ought to be adopted for the further accommodation of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, for the term commencing on the 4th day of March next.
Ordered, That the Secretary desire the concurrence of the House of Representatives in the appointment of a joint committee on their part.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they have agreed to the report of the joint committee appointed to ascertain and report a mode of examining the votes for PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and of notifying the persons elected of their election.
Mr. SEDGWICK, from the joint committee to whom it was referred to join such committee as might be appointed by the House of Representatives to ascertain and report a mode of examining the votes for PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and of notifying the persons elected of their election, reported that, having further concurred with the committee appointed by the House of Representatives, that, in their opinion, the following resolution ought to be adopted by the Senate:
"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Senate be directed to give, by letter, to the Vice President elect, a notification of his election."
On motion, it was agreed to insert the PRESIDENT of the Senate instead of the Secretary; and,
On motion, it was agreed to reconsider the resolution, and to recommit the report from the joint committee.
Mr. SEDGWICK reported, from the joint committee last mentioned, that the committee on the part of the House of Representatives considered themselves discharged from their commission.
Resolved, That the Senate disagree to the report of the joint committee on the mode of notifying the VICE PRESIDENT elect of his election; and that a committee be appointed on the part of the Senate, to confer with such committee as may be appointed on the part of the House of Representatives, on the report of the joint committee above mentioned; and that Messrs. SEDGWICK, LAURANCE and READ, be the managers at the conference on the part of the Senate.
Ordered, That the Secretary acquaint the House of Representatives therewith.
On motion, that it be
"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Senate be directed, and he is hereby directed, to lay before the President of the United States a copy of the journal of yesterday, relative to the opening and counting of votes for President and Vice President of the United States, and the declaration of the President of the Senate thereon; and, also, to present to the President of the United States a copy of the notification given by the President elect of the time, place, and manner, of qualifying to execute the duties of his office."
Ordered, That the motion lie until to-morrow for consideration.
FRIDAY, February 10.
The Senate resumed the consideration of the motion made yesterday, that the Secretary of the Senate wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and notify him of the election of PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, to commence with the 4th day of March next.
On motion, to insert "a committee" in place of "the Secretary," it passed in the negative. And the motion being amended, was adopted as follows:
Ordered, That the Secretary of the Senate lay before the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES a copy of the journal of the 8th instant, relative to the opening and counting the votes for PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and the declaration of the PRESIDENT of the Senate consequent thereon; and, also a copy of the notification given by the PRESIDENT elect of the time, place, and manner of qualifying to execute the duties of his office.
A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they agree to the report of the joint committee appointed by the two Houses to confer on a proper mode of notifying the VICE PRESIDENT elect of his election.
Mr. SEDGWICK, from the committee of conference above mentioned, reported that the following resolution should be adopted by the House of Representatives:
"Resolved, That the notification of the election of the Vice President elect be made by such person and in such manner as the Senate may direct."
On motion, that it be
"Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to communicate (in such manner as he shall judge most proper) to the person elected Vice President of the United States, for the term of four years, to commence 4th day of March next, information of his said election:"
It passed in the negative.
Ordered, That the resolution this day agreed to by the House of Representatives, relative to the notification of the election of the VICE PRESIDENT elect, be referred to Messrs. MASON, HILLHOUSE, and SEDGWICK, to consider and report thereon to the Senate.
Mr. MASON reported, from the committee last appointed; and, the report being read, was amended and adopted as follows:
Resolved, That the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES be requested to cause to be transmitted to THOMAS JEFFERSON, Esq., of Virginia, VICE PRESIDENT elect of the United States, notification of his election to that office; and that the PRESIDENT of the Senate do make out and sign a certificate in the words following:
Be it known, that the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, being convened in the city of Philadelphia, on the second Wednesday in February, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and ninety-seven, the underwritten Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate did, in the presence of the said Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and count all the votes of the Electors for a President and for a Vice President; by which it appears that THOMAS JEFFERSON, Esquire, was duly elected, agreeably to the constitution, Vice President of the United States of America.
"In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and seal, this 10th day of February, 1797."
Ordered, That the Secretary lay this resolution before the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
MONDAY, February 13.
On request, the VICE PRESIDENT was excused from further attendance in the Senate after Wednesday next.
WEDNESDAY, February 15.
Withdrawal of the Vice-President, (now President elect of the United States,) and his Valedictory to the Senate.
After the consideration of the Executive business, a motion was made that the Senate now adjourn; when the VICE-PRESIDENT addressed them as follows:
Gentlemen of the Senate:
If, in the general apprehension of an intention to retire in that most eminent citizen, to whom all eyes had been directed, and all hearts attracted, as the centre of our Union, for so long a period, the public opinion had exhibited any clear indication of another, in whom our fellow-citizens could have generally united, as soon as I read that excellent Address, which announced the necessity of deliberation in the choice of a President, I should have imitated the example of a character with which I have co-operated, though in less conspicuous and important stations, and maintained an uninterrupted friendship for two and twenty years. But, as a number of characters appeared to stand in the general estimation so nearly on a level, as to render it difficult to conjecture on which the majority would fall; considering the relation in which I stood to the people of America, I thought it most respectful to them, and most conducive to the tranquillity of the public mind, to resign myself, with others, a silent spectator of the general deliberation, and a passive subject of public discussions.
Deeply penetrated with gratitude to my countrymen in general, for their long continued kindness to me, and for that steady and affecting confidence, with which those who have most intimately known me, from early life, have, on so many great occasions, intrusted to me the care of their dearest interests; since a majority of their Electors, though a very small one, have declared in my favor, and since, in a Republican Government, the majority, though ever so small, must of necessity decide, I have determined, at every hazard of a high but just responsibility, though with much anxiety and diffidence, once more to engage in their service. Their confidence, which has been the chief consolation of my life, is too precious and sacred a deposit ever to be considered lightly; as it has been founded only on the qualities of the heart, it never has been, it never can be, deceived, betrayed, or forfeited by me.
It is with reluctance, and with all those emotions of gratitude and affection, which a long experience of your goodness ought to inspire, that I now retire from my seat in this House, and take my leave of the members of the Senate.
I ought not to declare, for the last time, your adjournment, before I have presented to every Senator present, and to every citizen who has ever been a Senator of the United States, my thanks, for the candor and favor invariably received from them all. It is a recollection of which nothing can ever deprive me, and it will be a source of comfort to me, through the remainder of my life, that as, on the one hand, in a government constituted like ours, I have for eight years held the second situation under the Constitution of the United States, in perfect and uninterrupted harmony with the first, without envy in one, or jealousy in the other; so, on the other hand, I have never had the smallest misunderstanding with any member of the Senate. In all the abstruse questions, difficult conjectures, dangerous emergencies, and animated debates, upon the great interests of our country, which have so often and so deeply impressed all our minds, and interested the strongest feelings of the heart, I have experienced a uniform politeness and respect from every quarter of the House. When questions of no less importance than difficulty have produced a difference of sentiment, (and difference of opinion will always be found in free assemblies of men, and probably the greatest diversities upon the greatest questions,) when the Senators have been equally divided, and my opinion has been demanded according to the constitution, I have constantly found, in that moiety of the Senators from whose judgment I have been obliged to dissent, a disposition to allow me the same freedom of deliberation, and independence of judgment, which they asserted for themselves.
Within these walls, for a course of years, I have been an admiring witness of a succession of information, eloquence, patriotism, and independence, which, as they would have done honor to any Senate in any age, afford a consolatory hope, (if the Legislatures of the States are equally careful in their future selections, which there is no reason to distrust,) that no council more permanent than this, as a branch of the Legislature, will be necessary, to defend the rights, liberties, and properties of the people, and to protect the Constitution of the United States, as well as the constitutions and rights of the individual States, against errors of judgment, irregularities of the passions, or other encroachments of human infirmity, or more reprehensible enterprise, in the Executive on one hand, or the more immediate representatives of the people on the other.
These considerations will all conspire to animate me in my future course, with a confident reliance, that as far as my conduct shall be uniformly measured by the Constitution of the United States, and faithfully directed to the public good, I shall be supported by the Senate, as well as by the House of Representatives, and the people at large; and on no other conditions ought any support at all to be expected or desired.
With cordial wishes for your honor, health, and happiness, and fervent prayers for a continuation of the virtues, liberties, prosperity, and peace, of our beloved country, I avail myself of your leave of absence for the remainder of the session.
THURSDAY, February 16.
The VICE-PRESIDENT being absent, the Senate proceeded to the choice of a PRESIDENT pro tempore, as the constitution provides, and the honorable WILLIAM BINGHAM was duly elected.
Ordered, That the Secretary wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and notify him of the election of the Honorable WILLIAM BINGHAM, to be PRESIDENT of the Senate pro tempore.
Ordered, That the Secretary notify the House of Representatives of this election.
On motion,
Ordered, That Messrs. SEDGWICK, BURR, and TRACY, be a committee to prepare and report the draft of an answer to the Address delivered yesterday to the Senate, by the VICE PRESIDENT of the United States.
TUESDAY, February 21.
The bill to accommodate the PRESIDENT was read the third time; and, being further amended,
On motion that it be Resolved, That this bill pass, it was decided in the affirmative--yeas 28, nays 3, as follows:
YEAS.--Messrs. Bingham, Bloodworth, Blount, Bradford, Brown, Foster, Goodhue, Gunn, Henry, Hillhouse, Howard, Langdon, Latimer, Laurance, Livermore, Marshall, Martin, Pain, Read, Ross, Rutherford, Sedgwick, Stockton, Tattnall, Tazewell, Tichenor, Tracy, and Vining.
NAYS.--Messrs. Cocke, Hunter, and Mason.
So it was Resolved, That this bill pass; that it be engrossed; and that the title thereof be, "An act to accommodate the PRESIDENT."
Mr. SEDGWICK reported from the committee appointed for the purpose, the draft of an answer to the Address of the VICE PRESIDENT of the United States, on his retiring from the Senate; which was read.
On motion, that it be printed for the use of the Senate, it was disagreed to.
Ordered, That the report lie for consideration.
WEDNESDAY, February 22.
The Senate took into consideration the report of the committee, in answer to the Address of the VICE PRESIDENT of the United States, on his retiring from the Senate.
On motion to recommit the report, it passed in the negative: and the report being amended, was adopted, as follows:
SIR: The Senate of the United States would be unjust to their own feelings, and deficient in the performance of a duty their relation to the Government of their country imposes, should they fail to express their regard for your person, and their respect for your character, in answer to the Address you presented to them, on your leaving a station which you have so long and so honorably filled as their President.
The motives you have been pleased to disclose which induced you not to withdraw from the public service, at a time when your experience, talents, and virtues, were peculiarly desirable, are as honorable for yourself, as, from our confidence in you, sir, we trust the result will be beneficial to our beloved country.
When you retired from your dignified seat in this House, and took your leave of the members of the Senate, we felt all those emotions of gratitude and affection, which our knowledge and experience of your abilities and undeviating impartiality ought to inspire; and we should, with painful reluctance, endure the separation, but for the consoling reflection, that the same qualities which have rendered you useful, as the President of this branch of the Legislature, will enable you to be still more so, in the exalted station to which you have been called.
From you, sir, in whom your country have for a long period placed a steady confidence, which has never been betrayed or forfeited, and to whom they have on so many occasions intrusted the care of their dearest interests, which have never been abused; from you, who, holding the second situation under the Constitution of the United States, have lived in uninterrupted harmony with him who has held the first; from you we receive, with much satisfaction, the declaration which you are pleased to make of the opinion you entertain of the character of the present Senators, and of that of those citizens who have been heretofore Senators. This declaration, were other motives wanting, would afford them an incentive to a virtuous perseverance in the line of conduct which has been honored with your approbation.
In your future course, we entertain no doubt that your official conduct will be measured by the constitution, and directed to the public good; you have, therefore, a right to entertain a confident reliance, that you will be supported, as well by the people at large as by their constituted authorities.
We cordially reciprocate the wishes which you express for our honor, health, and happiness; we join with yours our fervent prayers for the continuation of the virtues and liberties of our fellow-citizens, for the public prosperity and peace; and for you we implore the best reward of virtuous deeds--the grateful approbation of your constituents, and the smiles of Heaven.
WILLIAM BINGHAM, President of the Senate pro tempore.
Ordered, That the committee who drafted the Address wait on the VICE PRESIDENT, with the Answer of the Senate.
THURSDAY, February 23.
Mr. SEDGWICK reported, from the committee, that, agreeably to order, they had waited on the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, with the answer to his Address, on retiring from the Senate--to which the VICE PRESIDENT was pleased to make the following Reply:
An Address so respectful and affectionate as this, from gentlemen of such experience and established character in public affairs, high stations in the Government of their country, and great consideration, in their several States, as Senators of the United States, will do me great honor, and afford me a firm support, wherever it shall be known, both at home and abroad. Their generous approbation of my conduct, in general, and liberal testimony to the undeviating impartiality of it, in my peculiar relation to their body, a character which, in every scene and employment of life, I should wish above all others to cultivate and merit, has a tendency to soften asperities, and conciliate animosities, wherever such may unhappily exist; an effect at all times to be desired, and in the present situation of our country, ardently to be promoted by all good citizens.
I pray the Senate to accept my sincere thanks.
JOHN ADAMS.
WEDNESDAY, March 1.
Executive Veto on the Army Bill.
The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES having stated his objections to the bill, entitled "An act to alter and amend an act, entitled 'an act to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment of the United States,'" the House of Representatives proceeded to consider the objections to the said bill, and have resolved that it do not pass.
SPECIAL SESSION
SATURDAY, March 4.
Installation of Thomas Jefferson as Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate, and inauguration of John Adams as President of the United States.
To the Vice President and Senators of the United States respectively:
SIR: It appearing to be proper that the Senate of the United States should be convened on Saturday, the fourth of March instant, you are desired to attend in the Chamber of the Senate, on that day at ten o'clock in the forenoon, to receive any communications which the President of the United States may then lay before you touching their interests. G. WASHINGTON.
March 1, 1797.
In conformity with the summons from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, above recited, the Senate accordingly assembled in their Chamber.
PRESENT:
THOMAS JEFFERSON, Vice President of the United States and President of the Senate.
JOHN LANGDON and SAMUEL LIVERMORE, from New Hampshire.
THEODORE SEDGWICK and BENJAMIN GOODHUE, from Massachusetts.
THEODORE FOSTER, from Rhode Island.
JAMES HILLHOUSE and URIAH TRACY, from Connecticut.
ELIJAH PAYNE and ISAAC TICHENOR, from Vermont.
JOHN LAURANCE, from New York.
RICHARD STOCKTON, from New Jersey.
JAMES ROSS and WILLIAM BINGHAM, from Pennsylvania.
JOHN VINING and HENRY LATIMER, from Delaware.
JOHN HENRY and JOHN E. HOWARD, from Maryland.
HENRY TAZEWELL and STEVENS T. MASON, from Virginia.
JOHN BROWN and HUMPHREY MARSHALL, from Kentucky.
ALEXANDER MARTIN and TIMOTHY BLOODWORTH, from North Carolina.
WILLIAM BLOUNT, from Tennessee.
JACOB READ, from South Carolina.
JAMES GUNN and JOSIAH TATTNALL, from Georgia.
Mr. BINGHAM administered the oath of office to the VICE PRESIDENT, who took the chair, and the credentials of the following members were read.
Of Mr. FOSTER, Mr. GOODHUE, Mr. HILLHOUSE, Mr. HOWARD, Mr. LATIMER, Mr. MASON, Mr. ROSS, and Mr. TICHENOR.
And the oath of office being severally administered to them by the VICE PRESIDENT, they took their seats in the Senate.
The VICE PRESIDENT then addressed the Senate as follows:
Gentlemen of the Senate:
Entering on the duties of the office to which I am called, I feel it incumbent on me to apologize to this honorable House for the insufficient manner in which I fear they may be discharged. At an earlier period of my life, and through some considerable portion of it, I have been a member of Legislative bodies, and not altogether inattentive to the forms of their proceedings; but much time has elapsed since that; other duties have occupied my mind, and, in a great degree, it has lost its familiarity with this subject. I fear that the House will have but too frequent occasion to perceive the truth of this acknowledgment. If a diligent attention, however, will enable me to fulfil the functions now assigned me, I may promise that diligence and attention shall be sedulously employed. For one portion of my duty, I shall engage with more confidence, because it will depend on my will and not my capacity. The rules which are to govern the proceedings of this House, so far as they shall depend on me for their application, shall be applied with the most rigorous and inflexible impartiality, regarding neither persons, their views, nor principles, and seeing only the abstract proposition subject to my decision. If, in forming that decision, I concur with some and differ from others, as must of necessity happen, I shall rely on the liberality and candor of those from whom I differ, to believe, that I do it on pure motives.
I might here proceed, and with the greatest truth, to declare my zealous attachment to the Constitution of the United States, that I consider the union of these States as the first of blessings and as the first of duties the preservation of that constitution which secures it; but I suppose these declarations not pertinent to the occasion of entering into an office whose primary business is merely to preside over the forms of this House, and no one more sincerely prays that no accident may call me to the higher and more important functions which the constitution eventually devolves on this office. These have been justly confided to the eminent character which has preceded me here, whose talents and integrity have been known and revered by me through a long course of years, have been the foundation of a cordial and uninterrupted friendship between us, and I devoutly pray he may be long preserved for the government, the happiness, and prosperity, of our common country.[1]
On motion, it was agreed to repair to the Chamber of the House of Representatives to attend the administration of the oath of office to JOHN ADAMS, President of the United States; which the Senate accordingly did; and, being seated, the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (attended by the Heads of Departments, the Marshal of the District and his officers) came into the Chamber of the House of Representatives and took his seat in the chair usually occupied by the SPEAKER. The VICE PRESIDENT and Secretary of the Senate were seated in advance, inclining to the right of the PRESIDENT, the late SPEAKER of the House of Representatives and Clerk on the left, and the Justices of the Supreme Court were seated round a table in front of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. The late PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, the great and good WASHINGTON,[2] took a seat, as a private citizen, a little in front of the seats assigned for the Senate, which were on the south side of the House, the foreign Ministers and members of the House of Representatives took their usual seats--a great concourse of both sexes being present. After a short pause, the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES arose, and communicated the following Address:
"When it was first perceived, in early times, that no middle course for America remained, between unlimited submission to a foreign Legislature, and a total independence of its claims, men of reflection were less apprehensive of danger, from the formidable power of fleets and armies they must determine to resist, than from those contests and dissensions, which would certainly arise concerning the forms of government to be instituted over the whole and over the parts of this extensive country. Relying, however, on the purity of their intentions, the justice of their cause, and the integrity and intelligence of the people, under an overruling Providence, which had so signally protected this country from the first, the Representatives of this nation, then consisting of little more than half its present number, not only broke to pieces the chains which were forging, and the rod of iron that was lifted up, but frankly cut asunder the ties which had bound them, and launched into an ocean of uncertainty.
"The zeal and ardor of the people, during the Revolutionary war, supplying the place of government, commanded a degree of order, sufficient at least for the preservation of society. The Confederation, which was early felt to be necessary, was prepared from the models of the Batavian and Helvetic Confederacies, the only examples which remain, with any detail and precision, in history, and certainly the only ones which the people at large had ever considered. But, reflecting on the striking difference, in many particulars, between this country and those where a courier may go from the seat of Government to the frontier in a single day, it was then certainly foreseen by some who assisted in Congress at the formation of it, that it could not be durable.
"Negligence of its regulations, inattention to its recommendations, if not disobedience to its authority, not only in individuals but in States, soon appeared, with their melancholy consequences: universal languor; jealousies and rivalries of States; decline of navigation and commerce; discouragement of necessary manufactures; universal fall in the value of lands and their produce; contempt of public and private faith; loss of consideration and credit with foreign nations; and, at length, in discontents, animosities, combinations, partial conventions, and insurrection, threatening some great national calamity.
"In this dangerous crisis, the people of America were not abandoned by their usual good sense, presence of mind, resolution, or integrity. Measures were pursued to concert a plan, to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty. The public disquisitions, discussions, and deliberations, issued in the present happy constitution of Government.
"Employed in the service of my country abroad, during the whole course of these transactions, I first saw the Constitution of the United States in a foreign country. Irritated by no literary altercation, animated by no public debate, heated by no party animosity, I read it with great satisfaction, as a result of good heads, prompted by good hearts; as an experiment, better adapted to the genius, character, situation, and relations, of this nation and country, than any which had ever been proposed or suggested. In its general principles and great outlines, it was conformable to such a system of government as I had ever most esteemed, and in some States, my own native State in particular, had contributed to establish. Claiming a right of suffrage, in common with my fellow-citizens, in the adoption or rejection of a constitution which was to rule me and my posterity, as well as them and theirs, I did not hesitate to express my approbation of it, on all occasions, in public and in private. It was not then, nor has been since, any objection to it, in my mind, that the Executive and Senate were not more permanent. Nor have I ever entertained a thought of promoting any alteration in it, but such as the people themselves, in the course of their experience, should see and feel to be necessary or expedient, and by their Representatives in Congress and the State Legislatures, according to the constitution itself, adopt and ordain.
"Returning to the bosom of my country, after a painful separation from it, for ten years, I had the honor to be elected to a station under the new order of things, and I have repeatedly laid myself under the most serious obligations to support the constitution. The operation of it has equalled the most sanguine expectations of its friends, and from an habitual attention to it, satisfaction in its administration and delight in its effects upon the peace, order, prosperity, and happiness of the nation, I have acquired an habitual attachment to it, and veneration for it.
"What other form of government, indeed, can so well deserve our esteem and love?
"There may be little solidity in an ancient idea that congregations of men into cities and nations are the most pleasing objects in the sight of superior intelligences: but this is very certain, that, to a benevolent human mind, there can be no spectacle presented by any nation more pleasing, more noble, majestic, or august, than an assembly like that which has so often been seen in this and the other chamber of Congress, of a Government, in which the Executive authority, as well as that of all the branches of the Legislature, are exercised by citizens selected, at regular periods, by their neighbors, to make and execute laws for the general good. Can any thing essential, any thing more than mere ornament and decoration, be added to this by robes and diamonds? Can authority be more amiable and respectable, when it descends from accidents, or institutions established in remote antiquity, than when it springs fresh from the hearts and judgments of an honest and enlightened people? For, it is the people only that are represented: it is their power and majesty that are reflected, and only for their good, in every legitimate Government, under whatever form it may appear. The existence of such a Government as ours, for any length of time, is a full proof of a general dissemination of knowledge and virtue throughout the whole body of the people. And what object or consideration more pleasing than this can be presented to the human mind? If national pride is ever justifiable or excusable, it is when it springs, not from power or riches, grandeur or glory, but from conviction of national innocence, information, and benevolence.
"In the midst of these pleasing ideas, we should be unfaithful to ourselves, if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties, if any thing partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, virtuous, and independent elections. If an election is to be determined by a majority of a single vote, and that can be procured by a party, through artifice or corruption, the Government may be the choice of a party, for its own ends, not of the nation for the national good. If that solitary suffrage can be obtained by foreign nations, by flattery or menaces, by fraud or violence by terror, intrigue, or venality, the Government may not be the choice of the American people, but of foreign nations. It may be foreign nations who govern us, and not we the people who govern ourselves. And candid men will acknowledge, that, in such cases, choice would have little advantage to boast of, over lot or chance.
"Such is the amiable and interesting system of Government (and such are some of the abuses to which it may be exposed) which the people of America have exhibited to the admiration and anxiety of the wise and virtuous of all nations, for eight years, under the administration of a citizen, who, by a long course of great actions, regulated by prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude, conducting a people, inspired with the same virtues, and animated with the same ardent patriotism and love of liberty, to independence and peace, to increasing wealth and unexampled prosperity, has merited the gratitude of his fellow-citizens, commanded the highest praises of foreign nations, and secured immortal glory with posterity.
"In that retirement which is his voluntary choice, may he long live to enjoy the delicious recollection of his services, the gratitude of mankind, the happy fruits of them to himself and the world, which are daily increasing, and that splendid prospect of the future fortunes of this country, which is opening from year to year. His name may be still a rampart, and the knowledge that he still lives a bulwark, against all open or secret enemies of his country's peace. His example has been recommended to the imitation of his successors, by both Houses of Congress, and by the voice of the Legislatures and the people throughout the nation.
"On this subject it might become me better to be silent, or to speak with diffidence; but as something may be expected, the occasion, I hope, will be admitted as an apology, if I venture to say, that if a preference upon principle, of a free Republican Government, formed upon long and serious reflection, after a diligent and impartial inquiry after truth; if an attachment to the Constitution of the United States, and a conscientious determination to support it, until it shall be altered by the judgments and wishes of the people, expressed in the mode prescribed in it; if a respectful attention to the constitutions of the individual States, and a constant caution and delicacy towards the State Government; if an equal and impartial regard to the rights, interest, honor, and happiness, of all the States in the Union, without preference or regard to a Northern or Southern, an Eastern or Western position, their various political opinions on unessential points, or their personal attachments; if a love of virtuous men of all parties and denominations; if a love of science and letters, and a wish to patronize every rational effort to encourage schools, colleges, universities, academies, and every institution for propagating knowledge, virtue, and religion, among all classes of the people, not only for their benign influence on the happiness of life in all its stages and classes, and of society in all its forms, but as the only means of preserving our constitution from its natural enemies, the spirit of sophistry, the spirit of party, the spirit of intrigue, the profligacy of corruption, and the pestilence of foreign influence, which is the angel of destruction to elective governments; if a love of equal laws, of justice, and humanity, in the interior administration; if an inclination to improve agriculture, commerce, and manufactures, for necessity, convenience, and defence; if a spirit of equity and humanity towards the aboriginal nations of America, and a disposition to meliorate their condition, by inclining them to be more friendly to us, and our citizens to be more friendly to them; if an inflexible determination to maintain peace and inviolable faith with all nations, and that system of neutrality and impartiality among the belligerent powers of Europe, which has been adopted by this Government, and so solemnly sanctioned by both Houses of Congress, and applauded by the Legislatures of the States and the public opinion, until it shall be otherwise ordained by Congress; if a personal esteem for the French nation, formed in a residence of seven years, chiefly among them, and a sincere desire to preserve the friendship which has been so much for the honor and interest of both nations; if, while the conscious honor and integrity of the people of America, and the internal sentiment of their own power and energies must be preserved, an earnest endeavor to investigate every just cause, and remove every colorable pretence of complaint; if an intention to pursue, by amicable negotiation, a reparation for the injuries that have been committed on the commerce of our fellow-citizens by whatever nation, and, if success cannot be obtained, to lay the facts before the Legislature, that they may consider what further measures the honor and interest of the Government and its constituents demand; if a resolution to do justice, as far as may depend upon me, at all times and to all nations, and maintain peace, friendship, and benevolence, with all the world; if an unshaken confidence in the honor, spirit, and resources of the American people, on which I have so often hazarded my all, and never been deceived; if elevated ideas of the high destinies of this country, and of my own duties towards it, founded on a knowledge of the moral principles and intellectual improvements of the people, deeply engraven on my mind in early life, and not obscured, but exalted by experience and age; and with humble reverence, I feel it to be my duty to add, if a veneration for the religion of a people who profess and call themselves Christians, and a fixed resolution to consider a decent respect for Christianity among the best recommendations for the public service, can enable me, in any degree, to comply with your wishes, it shall be my strenuous endeavor, that this sagacious injunction of the two Houses shall not be without effect.
"With this great example before me, with the sense and spirit, the faith and honor, the duty and interest, of the same American people, pledged to support the Constitution of the United States, I entertain no doubt of its continuance in all its energy, and my mind is prepared, without hesitation, to lay myself under the most solemn obligations to support it to the utmost of my power.
"And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector, in all ages of the world, of virtuous liberty, continue his blessing upon this nation and its Government, and give it all possible success and duration, consistent with the ends of His Providence."
The oath of office was then administered to him by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, the Associate Justices attending. After which, the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES retired, and the Senate repaired to their own Chamber.
On motion,
Ordered, That Messrs. LANGDON and SEDGWICK be a committee to wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and notify him that the Senate is assembled, and ready to adjourn unless he may have any communications to make to them.
Mr. LANGDON reported, from the committee, that they had waited on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, who replied, that he had no communication to make to the Senate, except his good wishes for their health and prosperity, and a happy meeting with their families and friends.
The Senate then adjourned without day.
FOURTH CONGRESS.--SECOND SESSION.
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES
IN
THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
MONDAY, December 5, 1796.
This being the day appointed by the constitution for the annual meeting of Congress, in the House of Representatives, the following named members appeared and took their seats, viz:
From New Hampshire.--ABIEL FOSTER, NICHOLAS GILMAN, JOHN S. SHERBURNE, and JEREMIAH SMITH.
From Massachusetts.--FISHER AMES, THEOPHILUS BRADBURY, HENRY DEARBORN, DWIGHT FOSTER, NATHANIEL FREEMAN, Jr., SAMUEL LYMAN, WILLIAM LYMAN, JOHN READ, GEORGE THATCHER, JOSEPH B. VARNUM, and PELEG WADSWORTH.
From Rhode Island.--FRANCIS MALBONE.
From Connecticut.--JOSHUA COIT, CHAUNCEY GOODRICH, ROGER GRISWOLD, NATHANIEL SMITH, and ZEPHANIAH SWIFT.
From New York.--THEODORUS BAILEY, WILLIAM COOPER, EZEKIEL GILBERT, HENRY GLENN, JONATHAN N. HAVENS, JOHN E. VAN ALLEN, PHILIP VAN CORTLANDT, and JOHN WILLIAMS.
From New Jersey.--JONATHAN DAYTON, AARON KITCHELL, and ISAAC SMITH.
From Pennsylvania.--ALBERT GALLATIN, SAMUEL MACLAY, FREDERICK AUGUSTUS MUHLENBERG, JOHN RICHARDS, SAMUEL SITGREAVES, and JOHN SWANWICK.
From Delaware.--JOHN PATTON.
From Maryland.--GEORGE DENT, WILLIAM HINDMAN, and RICHARD SPRIGG, Jr.
From Virginia.--JOHN CLOPTON, ISAAC COLES, GEORGE JACKSON, JAMES MADISON, ANTHONY NEW, and ROBERT RUTHERFORD.
From Kentucky.--CHRISTOPHER GREENUP.
From North Carolina.--THOMAS BLOUNT and MATTHEW LOCKE.
From South Carolina.--WILLIAM SMITH.
From Georgia.--ABRAHAM BALDWIN.
The following new members appeared, produced their credentials, were qualified, and took their seats, viz:
From Tennessee.--ANDREW JACKSON.
From Maryland.--WILLIAM CRAIK, in place of JEREMIAH CRABB, resigned.
From Connecticut.--JAMES DAVENPORT, in place of JAMES HILLHOUSE, appointed a Senator of the United States.
The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Governor of Pennsylvania, with the return of the election of GEORGE EGE, to serve as a member of the House in place of DANIEL HEISTER, resigned.
A quorum, consisting of a majority of the whole number, being present, it was ordered that the Clerk wait on the Senate, to inform them that this House was ready to proceed to business; but it appeared that the Senate had not been able to form a quorum by one member, and had adjourned.
Mr. WILLIAM SMITH presented a petition from Thomas Lloyd, proposing to take, in short-hand, and publish the Debates of Congress at $1,000 per session salary. The expense of printing, &c. he estimated at $540, for which he would furnish the House with five hundred copies of that work; engaging to use every possible precaution, and pay prompt attention.
Mr. S. referred to the unfavorable reception of a proposal of this nature at the last session, and supposed this would not be more successful; however, he moved that it be referred to a committee.
The motion was agreed to, and Mr. W. SMITH, Mr. GALLATIN, and Mr. SWIFT, were appointed to examine the petition, and report thereon to the House.
TUESDAY, December 6.
Several other members, to wit: from Vermont, ISRAEL SMITH; from New Jersey, MARK THOMPSON; from Pennsylvania, RICHARD THOMAS; from Virginia, CARTER B. HARRISON, JOHN HEATH, and ABRAHAM VENABLE; and from North Carolina, JESSE FRANKLIN, WILLIAM BARRY GROVE, JAMES HOLLAND, and NATHANIEL MACON, appeared, and took their seats in the House.
The SPEAKER observed, that, as there were several returns of new elections of members to serve in this session, it was proper that, pursuant to a rule of the House, a Committee of Elections be appointed.
A committee was accordingly appointed, of Mr. VENABLE, Mr. SWIFT, Mr. DENT, Mr. DEARBORN, Mr. BLOUNT, Mr. MUHLENBERG, and Mr. A. FOSTER.
Mr. MACON moved that a Committee of Revisal and Unfinished Business of last session be appointed, pursuant to the Standing Rules and Orders of the House, observing that, as the session would be but short, it would be necessary to be early in the appointment of committees.
Whereon Mr. GILMAN, Mr. R. SPRIGG, Jr., and Mr. MACON were appointed.
Notice was received that a quorum of the Senate was formed.
On motion, it was, therefore, resolved, that a committee of three members be appointed to wait on the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, in conjunction with a committee from the Senate, to inform him that a quorum of both Houses was assembled, and ready to receive any communications that he may please to make. Mr. AMES, Mr. MADISON, and Mr. SITGREAVES, were accordingly appointed.
A message was received from the Senate informing the House that they had formed a quorum: whereupon the Clerk went to the Senate with the resolution of this House. The Secretary soon after returned, informing the House that the Senate had concurred in the resolution, and formed a committee for that purpose.
Mr. AMES, from the committee appointed for that purpose, reported that the committee had waited on the PRESIDENT, who was pleased to signify to them that he would make a communication to both Houses of Congress to-morrow, at 12 o'clock, in the Representatives' Chamber.
WEDNESDAY, December 7.
Another member, to wit, SAMUEL SEWALL, from Massachusetts, in place of BENJAMIN GOODHUE, appointed a Senator of the United States, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.
A message was sent to the Senate, informing them that this House was ready, agreeably to appointment, to receive communications from the PRESIDENT; whereon the Senate attended, and took their seats. At 12 o'clock the PRESIDENT attended, and, after taking his seat, rose and delivered the following Address:
_Gentlemen of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives_:
In recurring to the internal situation of our country, since I had last the pleasure to address you, I find ample reason for a renewed expression of that gratitude to the Ruler of the Universe, which a continued series of prosperity, has so often and so justly called forth.
To an active external commerce, the protection of a Naval force is indispensable: this is manifest with regard to wars in which a State is itself a party. But besides this, it is in our own experience, that the most sincere neutrality is not a sufficient guard against the depredations of nations at war. To secure respect to a neutral flag, requires a Naval force, organized and ready to vindicate it from insult or aggression. This may even prevent the necessity of going to war, by discouraging belligerent powers from committing such violations of the rights of the neutral party as may, first or last, leave no other option. From the best information I have been able to obtain, it would seem as if our trade to the Mediterranean, without a protecting force, will always be insecure, and our citizens exposed to the calamities from which numbers of them have but just been relieved.
These considerations invite the United States to look to the means, and to set about the gradual creation of a Navy. The increasing progress of their navigation promises them, at no distant period, the requisite supply of seamen; and their means in other respects favor the undertaking. It is an encouragement likewise that their particular situation will give weight and influence to a moderate Naval force in their hands. Will it not, then, be advisable to begin, without delay, to provide and lay up the materials for the building and equipping of ships of war, and to proceed in the work by degrees, in proportion as our resources shall render it practicable without inconvenience; so that a future war of Europe may not find our commerce in the same unprotected state in which it was found by the present?
Congress have repeatedly, and not without success, directed their attention to the encouragement of manufactures. The object is of too much consequence not to ensure a continuance of their efforts in every way which shall appear eligible. As a general rule, manufactures on public account are inexpedient. But where the state of things in a country leaves but little hope that certain branches of manufacture will for a great length of time obtain, when these are of a nature essential to the furnishing and equipping of the public force in time of war; are not establishments for procuring them on public account, to the extent of the ordinary demand for the public service, recommended by strong considerations of national policy, as an exception to the general rule? Ought our country to remain in such cases dependent on foreign supply, precarious, because liable to be interrupted? If the necessary articles should in this mode cost more in time of peace, will not the security and independence thence arising form an ample compensation? Establishments of this sort, commensurate only with the calls of the public service in time of peace, will, in time of war, easily be extended in proportion to the exigencies of the Government, and may even, perhaps, be made to yield a surplus for the supply of our citizens at large, so as to mitigate the privations from the interruption of their trade. If adopted, the plan ought to exclude all those branches which are already, or likely soon to be established in the country, in order that there may be no danger of interference with pursuits of individual industry.
It will not be doubted that with reference either to individual or national welfare, agriculture is of primary importance. In proportion as nations advance in population, and other circumstances of maturity, this truth becomes more apparent, and renders the cultivation of the soil more and more an object of public patronage. Institutions for promoting it grow up, supported by the public purse; and to what object can it be dedicated with greater propriety? Among the means which have been employed to this end, none have been attended with greater success than the establishment of Boards, composed of proper characters, charged with collecting and diffusing information, and enabled by premiums, and small pecuniary aids, to encourage and assist a spirit of discovery and improvement. This species of establishment contributes doubly to the increase of improvement, by stimulating to enterprise and experiment, and by drawing to a common centre the results every where of individual skill and observation, and spreading them thence over the whole nation. Experience accordingly has shown that they are very cheap instruments of immense national benefits.
I have heretofore proposed to the consideration of Congress the expediency of establishing a National University, and also a Military Academy. The desirableness of both these institutions has so constantly increased with every new view I have taken of the subject, that I cannot omit the opportunity of once for all recalling your attention to them.
The Assembly to which I address myself is too enlightened not to be fully sensible how much a flourishing state of the arts and sciences contributes to national prosperity and reputation. True it is that our country, much to its honor, contains many seminaries of learning highly respectable and useful; but the funds upon which they rest are too narrow to command the ablest professors in the different departments of liberal knowledge for the institution contemplated, though they would be excellent auxiliaries.
Amongst the motives to such an institution the assimilation of the principles, opinions, and manners of our countrymen, by the common education of a portion of our youth from every quarter, well deserves attention. The more homogeneous our citizens can be made in these particulars, the greater will be our prospect of permanent union; and a primary object of such a national institution should be the education of our youth in the science of Government. In a Republic, what species of knowledge can be equally important? and what duty more pressing on its Legislature, than to patronize a plan for communicating it to those who are to be the future guardians of the liberties of the country?
The institution of a Military Academy is also recommended by cogent reasons. However pacific the general policy of a nation may be, it ought never to be without an adequate stock of military knowledge for emergencies. The first would impair the energy of its character, and both would hazard its safety, or expose it to greater evils when war could not be avoided: besides, that war might often not depend upon its own choice. In proportion as the observance of pacific maxims might exempt a nation from the necessity of practising the rules of the military art, ought to be its care in preserving and transmitting by proper establishments the knowledge of that art. Whatever argument may be drawn from particular examples, superficially viewed, a thorough examination of the subject will evince that the art of war is at once comprehensive and complicated; that it demands much previous study; and that the possession of it, in its most improved and perfect state, is always of great moment to the security of a nation. This, therefore, ought to be a serious care of every Government; and for this purpose an Academy, where a regular course of instruction is given, is an obvious expedient, which different nations have successfully employed.
The compensations to the officers of the United States in various instances, and in none more than in respect to the most important stations, appear to call for Legislative revision. The consequences of a defective provision are of serious import to the Government.
If private wealth is to supply the defect of public retribution, it will greatly contract the sphere within which the selection of character for office is to be made, and will proportionally diminish the probability of a choice of men, able, as well as upright. Besides, that it would be repugnant to the vital principles of our Government virtually to exclude from public trusts, talents, and virtue, unless accompanied by wealth.
While in our external relations some serious inconveniences and embarrassments have been overcome, and others lessened, it is with much pain and deep regret I mention that circumstances of a very unwelcome nature have lately occurred. Our trade has suffered, and is suffering, extensive injuries in the West Indies, from the cruisers and agents of the French Republic; and communications have been received from its Minister here which indicate the danger of a further disturbance of our commerce, by its authority, and which are, in other respects, far from agreeable.
It has been my constant, sincere, and ardent wish, in conformity with that of our nation, to maintain cordial harmony and a perfectly friendly understanding with that Republic. This wish remains unabated; and I shall persevere in the endeavor to fulfil it to the utmost extent of what shall be consistent with a just and indispensable regard to the rights and honor of our country; nor will I easily cease to cherish the expectation that a spirit of justice, candor, and friendship on the part of the Republic will eventually ensure success.
My solicitude to see the Militia of the United States placed on an efficient establishment has been so often and so ardently expressed that I shall but barely recall the subject to your view on the present occasion; at the same time that I shall submit to your inquiry, whether our harbors are yet sufficiently secured.
The situation in which I now stand, for the last time, in the midst of the Representatives of the people of the United States, naturally recalls the period when the administration of the present form of government commenced; and I cannot omit the occasion to congratulate you and my country on the success of the experiment; nor to repeat my fervent supplications to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe and Sovereign Arbiter of Nations, that His providential care may still be extended to the United States; that the virtue and happiness of the people may be preserved; and that the Government which they have instituted for the protection of their liberties may be perpetual.
G. WASHINGTON.
UNITED STATES, December 7, 1796.
When the PRESIDENT had concluded his Address, he presented copies of it to the PRESIDENT of the Senate and the SPEAKER of the House of Representatives. The PRESIDENT and the Senate then withdrew, and the SPEAKER took the Chair. The Address was again read by the Clerk, and on motion, committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.
THURSDAY, December 8.
JAMES GILLESPIE, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.
A new member, to wit, GEORGE EGE, from Pennsylvania, in place of DANIEL HEISTER, resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.
Address to the President.
On the motion of Mr. W. SMITH, the House went into a Committee of the Whole on the PRESIDENT's Address, according to the order of the day. The Speech was read by the Clerk.
Mr. D. FOSTER moved the following resolution: |
"Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that a respectful Address ought to be presented from the House of Representatives, to the President of the United States, in answer to his Speech to both Houses of Congress, at the commencement of the session, containing assurances that this House will take into consideration the many important matters recommended to their attention."
Which was unanimously agreed to, and Mr. AMES, Mr. BALDWIN, Mr. MADISON, Mr. SITGREAVES, and Mr. W. SMITH were appointed a committee to draw up the Address. The committee rose, and the resolution was adopted by the House.
FRIDAY, December 9.
DAVID BARD, from Pennsylvania, JOSIAH PARKER, from Virginia, and NATHAN BRYAN, from North Carolina, appeared and took their seats in the House.
Address to the President.
The SPEAKER said, that it had been usual for the House to come to some order on the PRESIDENT's Address, which was to refer it to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. On which Mr. WILLIAMS moved, that it be committed to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, which was done accordingly.
Mr. BAYLEY moved, that a Committee of Commerce and Manufactures be appointed, when Mr. WILLIAM SMITH, Mr. SEWALL, Mr. COIT, Mr. PARKER, Mr. BLOUNT, and Mr. DENT, were named for that committee.
Mr. BAYLEY then moved, that when this House adjourn, it adjourn till Monday at eleven o'clock.
[The reason stated during the last session for the House not meeting to do business on Saturdays was, that the standing committees were numerous, besides many special committees for different purposes, whose business was frequently very important and troublesome, it was therefore necessary that Saturday be allowed for the committees to sit, else business would be much protracted, and become too burdensome on gentlemen in committees.]
MONDAY, December 12.
Several other members, to wit: from New York, EDWARD LIVINGSTON; from Pennsylvania, ANDREW GREGG; from Maryland, GABRIEL CHRISTIE; from Virginia, WILLIAM B. GILES, ANDREW MOORE, and JOHN NICHOLAS; and from South Carolina, ROBERT GOODLOE HARPER, appeared, and took their seats in the House.
TUESDAY, December 13.
Two other members, to wit, THOMAS CLAIBORNE and JOHN PAGE, from Virginia, appeared and took their seats in the House.
A new member, viz: WILLIAM STRUDWICK, from North Carolina, in place of ABSALOM TATOM resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.
Address to the President.
Mr. W. SMITH then moved for the order of the day on the report of the committee in answer to the PRESIDENT's Address.
Mr. GILES said, that as the printed copy of the answer was but just laid before the House, he hoped the gentleman would not insist on his motion, as he declared he had not had time to read it; he would therefore move that it be deferred till to-morrow.
Mr. PARKER seconded the motion. He said he was not able to judge whether the answer would meet his approbation or not; he wished time to be given for the consideration of it.
Mr. W. SMITH said he knew no instance in which the answer to the PRESIDENT's Address had been laid over, and he thought it ought to be despatched with all possible speed.
Mr. HEATH said, he hoped his colleague would not insist on his motion for letting it lie over till to-morrow; he thought it could as well be acted on to-day.
Mr. AMES observed, that it would look very awkward to let it lie over till to-morrow, as it was very unusual, if not unprecedented, so to do; he thought gentlemen might make up their minds about it if laid on the table about an hour; they could, in the mean time, despatch other business, which would come before them.
Mr. GILES said, he had experienced extreme inconvenience from gentlemen pressing for a subject before it had been matured in the minds of members; he thought it would be extremely improper and unusual, and in its consequences disagreeable, to go into the subject before gentlemen had time to reflect on it.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, that the more expeditious the House were on the answer to the PRESIDENT's Address the greater the effect of it would be. He hoped, therefore, that there would be no delay. He had in recollection a Message which was received from the PRESIDENT respecting the Colors of the French Republic, at the last session. Those very gentlemen who now wished a delay, then thought that, to let the subject lie over, would lose its principal effect, although several of the members wished it to lie over, and but for one day. Surely we have as much respect for the PRESIDENT as we have for the French Republic. He really hoped the business would not lie over.
Mr. W. LYMAN hoped gentlemen did not look upon this answer to the PRESIDENT's Address as merely complimentary. He declared he took it up in a very different light; he viewed it as of the most extensive consequence; it related to the subjects recommended to the notice of the House by the PRESIDENT, which might relate to the alteration of the laws, and, perhaps, to the forming new laws; and could gentlemen have time to form their minds on such an important part of their business? He had only seen the report this morning, and hoped he should have time to consider it before it passed through the House.
The SPEAKER said, that the subject before the House now was, whether the unfinished business should be postponed in order to make room for a Committee of the Whole to sit on the report of the committee on the answer?
Mr. PARKER observed, that he could not say whether he approved or disapproved of the answer before the House. He had not read the report; he therefore hoped that the unfinished business would be taken up and this postponed: he thought it was too important to be hastened. He wished gentlemen to be very careful how they committed themselves at a juncture so critical, and on business so momentous. We had just been told by the PRESIDENT that we did not stand well with the French nation; and the Senate, in their answer, had accorded with his observations on that subject. [Mr. P. was here informed that the business of the Senate ought not to be introduced here.[3]] He therefore hoped a day might be allowed to take the subject into consideration.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, he had searched and could find no precedent in the journal to encourage a delay of this business. He found that when a report was made by the committee on such an occasion, it was usual to be taken up by a Committee of the whole House; and if gentlemen disagreed on the subject, it should be recommitted to the same committee who formed it, to make such alterations whereby it may meet more general approbation, or be amended by the House and passed. He hoped no new precedent would be made.
The SPEAKER again observed, that the question was on postponing the unfinished business to take up this report.
Mr. W. SMITH said, that if this business was delayed, it ought to be for substantial reasons. The principal reason gentlemen had urged was, that they had not had time to acquaint themselves with the answer. How, then, he asked, could they make their observations on it as they had done? The committee had, he thought, drafted it in such general terms that it could not be generally disapproved. There are but two parts in which he thought there would be differences of opinion, viz: that which related to the French Republic, and that which complimented the PRESIDENT for his services. As to the first, he thought it so expressed as to need no delay in the answer. With respect to the latter, he hoped no gentleman would refuse to pay a due regard to the PRESIDENT's services.
The SPEAKER again informed the House what was the question.
Mr. W. SMITH said, we ought not now to reflect on any thing we may judge has not been done as we could wish. Could we refuse a tribute of respect to a man who had served his country so much? He thought a delay at present would have a very unpleasant appearance. He hoped we should go into this business immediately, agreeably to the former practice of the House on similar occasions. The unfinished business was yesterday postponed for want of proper information, and he thought the same reason was yet in force with respect to it. He hoped nothing would impede this business, lest it should appear like a want of respect in us. He hoped to see a unanimous vote in favor of a respectful answer to the Chief Magistrate, whose services we ought zealously to acknowledge.
Mr. GILBERT saw no reason to depart from a practice which had been usual; he therefore hoped the report might come under consideration to-day. He thought if it laid on the table an hour or an hour and a half, gentlemen could then be prepared to consider it.
The SPEAKER again put the House in mind of the question.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, if the business was pressed too precipitately, gentlemen may be sensible of their error when it was too late. Many bad consequences might attend hastening the subject before it was well matured. He could see no reason why the business should be precipitated upon the House--a proper delay would not show any want of respect to the PRESIDENT, as some gentlemen think. Would it be more respectful that an answer should be sent by this House, which, for want of time, had not been sufficiently considered? Certainly not. Far more so will it appear that after mature deliberation the members are unanimous in their answer. I therefore think the object of respect which the gentleman from North Carolina has in view will be completely answered by the delay.
Gentlemen talk about precedent. I am ashamed to hear them. There may be no precedent on the subject. But are we always to act by precedent? There is scarcely a circumstance occurs in this House but what is different from any that was before it. The PRESIDENT's Addresses to this House are always different. They relate to the circumstances of things that are, have been, and may be. Then, to talk of precedents where things cannot be alike, is to trammel men down by rules which would be injurious in the issue.
The Message of the PRESIDENT respecting the French Colors had been referred to. If gentlemen were then wrong, is that a reason why they should continue to act wrong? But this circumstance materially differs from that. That was merely an expression of sentiment, which could at once be determined, but this of sentiment, accompanied with deep and solemn reflection--it is so interwoven with the politics of the country as to require great circumspection. I hope gentlemen will not go into it until they are properly prepared. I wish to pay all possible respect to the Chief Magistrate, and cannot prove it better than by a sincere desire for an unanimous vote to the answer, which is only to be obtained by proper deliberation; and thus let him depart from his office with credit, and the enjoyment of our best wishes in his retirement.
The question for postponing the unfinished business to take up this report was then put and negatived--43 to 31.
WEDNESDAY, December 14.
THOMAS HENDERSON, from New Jersey, and THOMAS HARTLEY, from Pennsylvania, appeared and took their seats in the House.
Reporting of the Debates.
Mr. W. SMITH moved for the order of the day on the petitions of Thomas Lloyd and Thomas Carpenter, whereupon the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, when, having read the report of the committee to whom it was referred,
Mr. MACON wished some gentleman who was in that committee, would be so good as to inform the House what would be the probable expense, and for what reason the House should go into the business. He thought the expense altogether unnecessary, whatever it may be.
If the debates of this House were to be printed, and four or five copies given to each member, they would employ all the mails of the United States. He also adverted to the attempt at the last session to introduce a stenographer into the House, which failed.
Mr. SMITH informed the gentleman that Mr. Lloyd's estimate of the expenses is, that he will supply the House with his reports at the rate of three cents per half sheet. His calculation is that he can supply the members at the expense of about $1,600 for the session. With respect to the gentleman's reference to last session, this was materially different from that: that motion was to make the person an officer of this House, and at an expense much greater. He thought this attempt would be of great use to the House. Regular and accurate information of the debates in the House would be a very desirable thing; he therefore hoped the resolution would prove agreeable to the House.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, that the House need not go into unnecessary expense: the members were now furnished, morning and evening, with newspapers, which contained the debates; then why should the House wish for more? If one person in particular has the sale of his debates to this House, will it not destroy the advantages any other can derive from it? We ought not to encourage an undertaking of this kind, but let us encourage any gentleman to come here and take down the debates. Last year they were taken down very accurately and dispersed throughout the Union.
By passing this resolution you will destroy the use of the privilege to any other than the person favored by this House. Why give one a privilege more than another? He observed, it had been common to give gentlemen the privilege to come into the House and take down the debates, which had been, last year, delivered time enough to give satisfaction to the members.
Mr. THATCHER said, he should wish for information from the committee how many persons there were to publish debates, as he understood there were several, and the members were to supply themselves from whom they pleased. He should likewise wish for information, how many each member was to have to amount to the value of $1,600.
Mr. W. SMITH said, there had been petitions received from only two persons--Thomas Lloyd and Thomas Carpenter. They intended, each of them, to publish the debates. There might be others; he knew not. There was no intention of giving any one a preference--gentlemen could subscribe for that they approved of most. At the calculation of Mr. Lloyd the members would have five copies each for the $1,600.
Mr. W. LYMAN said, the question was, whether the House would incur the expense of $1,600 to supply the members with copies or not? He thought there was no need of the expense. If the House do not think proper to furnish the members, they can supply themselves. A publication of them is going on at present, and many gentlemen had subscribed to it already.
Mr. DEARBORN did not think that $1,600 thus laid out would be expended to the best possible advantage. From the number of persons which we see here daily taking down debates, he thought we might expect to see a good report of the occurrences in the House. There was a book going about for subscriptions, which appeared to be well encouraged; he saw many of the members' names in it. He thought that, by a plan like that, the reports may be as accurately taken as we may have any reason to expect if the House incurs this expense.
Mr. NICHOLAS observed, that members were now served with three newspapers. He thought to vote for this resolution on account of obtaining a more full and complete report than was to be had in the newspapers; thus it would supersede the necessity of taking so many papers. He thought this plan more useful to the members, and generally of more advantage to their constituents, as they could disperse those debates where otherwise they would not be seen.
Mr. THATCHER said, if the object of the motion was to supersede the receiving of newspapers, he certainly should vote against it. He did not consider the main reason why members were served with the newspapers was, that they may obtain the debates. No. He thought it more important, in their stations, that they should know the occurrences of the day from the various parts of the United States as well as from foreign nations. Though he might favor an undertaking of this kind, yet he would give preference to a newspaper, if they were to have the one without the other.
Mr. HEATH did not wish that the members, being furnished with debates agreeably to the motion, should supersede the receiving of newspapers, yet he should vote for it. Gentlemen had said the debates were taken more correctly last session than before, yet he had heard a whisper which was going from North to South, that our debates are not represented impartially. He wished the House and the people to be furnished with a true report; such a thing would be very useful: however, he did not wish to encourage a monopoly to those two persons. No. He would wish to give an equal chance to all who choose to come and take them. Shall we repress truth? I hope not; but disseminate it as much as possible. Last session, when I was, under the act of God's providence, prevented from attending the House, a member sent for a gentleman from Virginia, who was to act as stenographer, with whom the House and a printer in this city were to combine. Warm debates ensued on the propriety of the measure, and the gentleman returned home after the motion was negatived. I hope gentlemen will not grudge 1,600 dollars towards the support of truth. What we see now in the newspapers is taken from the memory, and not by a stenographer. The people will thank you that you have taken means to investigate truth. If any gentleman can point out a better mode to obtain this object, I hope he will do it that it may be adopted; till then I shall support the resolution.
Mr. SHERBURNE did not think, with the gentleman last up, that the interest of the country was concerned; the only thing they were concerned in was the payment of the money. The printing of this work did not depend on the motion of this House. Whether the House adopt it or not, the book will be published. It is a matter of private interest; a speculation in the adventurer, like other publications. The question, he conceived, meant only this: Should the members be supplied with these pamphlets at the expense of the public, or should they put their hands in their own pockets and pay for them individually? He thought the House had no greater reasons to supply the members with this work than other publications; they might as well be furnished with the works of Peter Porcupine, or the Rights of Man, at the public expense.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the gentleman was mistaken with respect to the work going on, whether supported by the House or not. It was true as it respected the work proposed by Mr. Carpenter; but, with respect to Mr. Lloyd, he declared he could not undertake it, except the House would subscribe for five copies for each member.
Mr. SWANWICK considered the question to be to this effect: whether the debates be under the sanction of the House or not? A gentleman had said, it will be a great service to the public to have a correct statement of the debates. I think the most likely way to obtain it correctly is to let it rest on the footing of private industry. We have a work, entitled The Senator, in circulation. I have no doubt but the publisher will find good account in the undertaking. Why should the House trouble itself to sanction any particular work? Gentlemen would then have enough to do every morning in putting the debates to rights before they were published, as they would be pledged to the accuracy of the reports. I never heard that, in the British House of Commons or Lords, such a motion was ever made, nor have I ever heard of such in any other country; then why should we give our sanction and incur a responsibility for the accuracy of it. He said he should vote against the motion, but would encourage such a work while it rested on the footing of private adventure.
Mr. THATCHER said, he differed much from the gentleman last up, as it respected the responsibility of the House on such a publication. He thought it might as well be said, that because there had been a resolution for the Clerk to furnish the members of this House with three newspapers, the House was responsible for the truth of what those newspapers contained; if it was so, he should erase his name from his supply of them, as he thought, in general, they contained more lies than truth. Two considerations might recommend the resolution. It would encourage the undertaking, and also add to the stock of public information: on either of these, he would give it his assent. Soon after he came into the city, a paper was handed him with proposals for a publication of this kind (The Senator). He, with pleasure, subscribed to its support; as to general information, that was given already by newspapers, and though each member was to be supplied with five copies, yet very few would fall into hands where the newspapers did not reach. The work would go forward at any rate. If he thought the work depended on the motion, he should rejoice to give his vote toward its aid. On the question being put, only nineteen gentlemen voted in favor of the resolution; it was therefore negatived.
The committee then rose, and the House took up the resolution.
Mr. THATCHER observed, the question was put while he was inattentive: he wished it to lie over till to-morrow.
Mr. GILES wished to indulge the gentleman in his desire.
Mr. THATCHER then moved for the vote of the House, whether the report of the Committee of the Whole be postponed. Twenty-four members only appearing for the postponement, it was negatived.
The question was then put, whether the House agreed to the report of the Committee of the Whole and disagreed with the report of the select committee; which appeared in the affirmative. The motion was therefore lost.
Address to the President.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Answer to the PRESIDENT's Address; when the Answer reported by the select committee was read by the Clerk, and then in paragraphs by the Chairman, which is as follows:
SIR: The House of Representatives have attended to your communication respecting the state of our country, with all the sensibility that the contemplation of the subject and a sense of duty can inspire.
We are gratified by the information that measures calculated to ensure a continuance of the friendship of the Indians, and to maintain the tranquillity of the interior frontier, have been adopted; and we indulge the hope that these, by impressing the Indian tribes with more correct conceptions of the justice, as well as power of the United States, will be attended with success.
While we notice, with satisfaction, the steps that you have taken in pursuance of the late treaties with several foreign nations, the liberation of our citizens who were prisoners at Algiers is a subject of peculiar felicitation. We shall cheerfully co-operate in any further measures that shall appear, on consideration, to be requisite.
We have ever concurred with you in the most sincere and uniform disposition to preserve our neutral relations inviolate; and it is, of course, with anxiety and deep regret we hear that any interruption of our harmony with the French Republic has occurred; for we feel with you and with our constituents the cordial and unabated wish to maintain a perfectly friendly understanding with that nation. Your endeavors to fulfil that wish, (and by all honorable means to preserve peace, and to restore that harmony and affection which have heretofore so happily subsisted between the French Republic and the United States,) cannot fail, therefore, to interest our attention. And while we participate in the full reliance you have expressed on the patriotism, self-respect, and fortitude of our countrymen, we cherish the pleasing hope that a mutual spirit of justice and moderation on the part of the Republic will ensure the success of your perseverance.
The various subjects of your communication will, respectively, meet with the attention that is due to their importance.
When we advert to the internal situation of the United States, we deem it equally natural and becoming to compare the tranquil prosperity of the citizens with the period immediately antecedent to the operation of the Government, and to contrast it with the calamities in which the state of war still involves several of the European nations, as the reflections deduced from both tend to justify, as well as to excite, a warmer admiration of our free constitution, and to exalt our minds to a more fervent and grateful sense of piety towards Almighty God for the beneficence of His providence, by which its administration has been hitherto so remarkably distinguished.
And while we entertain a grateful conviction that your wise, firm, and patriotic Administration has been signally conducive to the success of the present form of Government, we cannot forbear to express the deep sensations of regret with which we contemplate your intended retirement from office.
As no other suitable occasion may occur, we cannot suffer the present to pass without attempting to disclose some of the emotions which it cannot fail to awaken.
The gratitude and admiration of your countrymen are still drawn to the recollection of those resplendent virtues and talents which were so eminently instrumental to the achievement of the Revolution, and of which that glorious event will ever be the memorial. Your obedience to the voice of duty and your country, when you quitted reluctantly a second time the retreat you had chosen, and first accepted the Presidency, afforded a new proof of the devotedness of your zeal in its service, and an earnest of the patriotism and success which have characterized your Administration. As the grateful confidence of the citizens in the virtues of their Chief Magistrate has essentially contributed to that success, we persuade ourselves that the millions whom we represent participate with us in the anxious solicitude of the present occasion.
Yet we cannot be unmindful that your moderation and magnanimity, twice displayed by retiring from your exalted stations, afford examples no less rare and instructive to mankind than valuable to a Republic.
Although we are sensible that this event, of itself, completes the lustre of a character already conspicuously unrivalled by the coincidence of virtue, talents, success, and public estimation, yet we conceive that we owe it to you, sir, and still more emphatically to ourselves and to our nation (of the language of whose hearts we presume to think ourselves at this moment the faithful interpreters) to express the sentiments with which it is contemplated.
The spectacle of a whole nation, the freest and most enlightened in the world, offering by its Representatives the tribute of unfeigned approbation to its first citizen, however novel and interesting it may be, derives all its lustre--a lustre which accident or enthusiasm could not bestow, and which adulation would tarnish--from the transcendent merit of which it is the voluntary testimony.
May you long enjoy that liberty which is so dear to you, and to which your name will ever be so dear. May your own virtues and a nation's prayers obtain the happiest sunshine for the decline of your days and the choicest of future blessings. For your country's sake--for the sake of Republican liberty--it is our earnest wish that your example may be the guide of your successors; and thus, after being the ornament and safeguard of the present age, become the patrimony of our descendants.
Mr. VENABLE observed, on a paragraph wherein it speaks of the "tranquillity of the interior frontier," he did not know what was the meaning of the expression: he moved to insert "Western frontier" in its stead.
Mr. AMES observed that the words of the report are in the PRESIDENT's Speech; however, he thought the amendment a good one. It then passed.
In the fourth paragraph are these words: "Your endeavors to fulfil that wish cannot fail, therefore, to interest our attention." At the word "wish," Mr. GILES proposed to insert these words: "and by all honorable means to preserve peace, and restore that harmony and affection which have heretofore so happily subsisted between the French Republic and this country;" and strike out the words that follow "wish" in that paragraph. He said, his reasons for moving this amendment were to avoid its consequences. He really wished the report entirely recommitted, as there were many objectionable parts in it. He had been very seriously impressed with the consequences that would result from a war with the French Republic. When I reflect, said Mr. G., on the calamities of war in general, I shudder at the thought; but, to conceive of the danger of a French war in particular, it cuts me still closer. When I think what many gentlemen in mercantile situations now feel, and the dreadful stop put to commerce, I feel the most sincere desire to cultivate harmony and good understanding. I see redoubled motives to show the world that we are in favor of a preservation of peace and harmony.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he should not object to the amendment; but he thought it only an amplification of a sentiment just before expressed. He did not see any advantage in the sentiment as dilated, nor could he see any injury which could accrue from it. He hoped every gentleman in the House wished as sincerely for the preservation of peace as that gentleman did.
Mr. AMES wished to know of the gentleman from Virginia, whether he meant to strike out the latter part of this paragraph; if he did, he would object to it.
Mr. GILES said, he did not mean to strike out any more of this paragraph.
Mr. AMES wished it not to be struck out. By the amendment to strike out, we show the dependence we place on the power and protection of the French. While we declare ourselves weak by the act, we lose the recourse to our own patriotism, and fly, acknowledging an offence never committed, to the French for peace. He hoped the gentleman would be candid upon this occasion.
Mr. GILES said, he only wished this House to express their most sincere and unequivocal desire in favor of peace, and not merely to leave it to the PRESIDENT. He said, he had spoken upon this occasion as he always had done on this floor. He always had, and he hoped always should state his opinions upon every subject with plainness and candor.
The amendment passed unanimously.
Mr. GILES then proposed an amendment to the latter part of the same paragraph which would make it read thus: "We cherish the pleasing hope that a spirit of mutual justice and moderation will ensure the success of your perseverance." The amendment was to insert the word "mutual." He thought we ought to display a spirit of justice and moderation as well as the French. This amendment, he thought, would soften the expression, and, acting with that spirit of justice and moderation, accomplish a reconciliation. The amendment was adopted.
On the Chairman's reading the last paragraph except one in the report, which reads thus: "The spectacle of a whole nation, the freest and most enlightened in the world," Mr. PARKER moved to strike out the words in italic. Although, said he, I wish to believe that we are the freest people, and the most enlightened people in the world, it is enough that we think ourselves so; it is not becoming in us to make the declaration to the world; and if we are not so, it is still worse for us to suppose ourselves what we are not.
Mr. HARPER said he had a motion of amendment in his hand which would supersede the necessity of the last made, which, if in order, he would propose: it was to insert words more simple. He thought the more simple, the more agreeable to the public ear. His amendment, he thought, would add to the elegance and conciseness of the expression. He did not disapprove of the Address as it now stood, but he thought it might be amended. This, he said, would add to the dignity, as well as to the simplicity of the expression. He thought it would be improper to give too much scope to feeling: amplitude of expression frequently weakens an idea.
Mr. GILES said he saw many objectionable parts in the amendments proposed by the gentleman just sat down. He wished to strike out two paragraphs more than Mr. HARPER had proposed; indeed, he wished the whole to be recommitted, that it might be formed more congenial to the wishes of the House in general, and not less agreeable to the person to be addressed.
Mr. SMITH observed, that as the answer had been read by paragraphs nearly to the close, he thought it very much out of order to return to parts so distant.
The Chairman said that no paragraph on which an amendment had been made could be returned to; but where no amendment had been made, it was quite consistent with order to propose any one gentlemen may think proper.
Mr. W. SMITH opposed striking out any paragraph. It was, he said, the last occasion we should have to address that great man, who had done so much service to his country. The warmth of expression in the answer was only an evidence of the gratitude of this House for his character. When we reflect on the glowing language used at the time when he accepted of the office of PRESIDENT, and at his re-election to that office, why, asked he, ought not the language of this House to be as full of respect and gratitude now as then? particularly when we consider the addresses now flowing in from all parts of the country. I object to the manner of gentlemen's amendments as proposed, to strike out all in a mass. If the sentiments were agreeable to the minds of the House, why waste our time to alter mere expressions while the sentiment is preserved? No doubt every gentleman's manner of expression differed, while their general ideas might be the same. He hoped mere form of expression would not cause its recommitment.
Mr. GILES did not object to a respectful and complimentary Address being sent to the PRESIDENT, yet he thought we ought not to carry our expressions out of the bounds of moderation; he hoped we should adhere to truth. He objected to some of the expressions in those paragraphs, for which reason he moved to have the paragraphs struck out, in order to be amended by the committee. He wished to act as respectful to the PRESIDENT as any gentleman, but he observed many parts of the Address which were objectionable. It is unnatural and unbecoming in us to exult in our superior happiness, light, or wisdom. It is not at all necessary that we should exult in our advantages, and thus reflect on the unhappy situation of nations in their troubles; it is insulting to them. If we are thus happy it is well for us; it is necessary that we should enjoy our happiness, but not boast of it to all the world, and insult their unhappy situation.
As to those parts of the Address which speak of the wisdom and firmness of the PRESIDENT, he must object to them. On reflection, he could see a want of wisdom and firmness in the Administration for the last six years. I may be singular in my ideas, said he, but I believe our Administration has been neither wise nor firm. I believe, sir, a want of wisdom and firmness has brought this country into the present alarming situation. If after such a view of the Administration, I was to come into this House and show the contrary by a quiet acquiescence, gentlemen would think me a very inconsistent character. If we take a view of our foreign relations, we shall see no reason to exult in the wisdom or firmness of our Administration. He thought nothing so much as a want of that wisdom and firmness had brought us to the critical situation in which we now stand.
If it had been the will of gentlemen to have been satisfied with placing the PRESIDENT in the highest possible point of respect amongst men, the vote of the House would have been unanimous, but the proposal of such adulation could never expect success. If we take a view into our internal situation, and behold the ruined state of public and private credit, less now than perhaps at any former period however, he never could recollect it so deranged. If we survey this city, what a shameful scene it alone exhibits, owing, as he supposed, to the immense quantity of paper issued. Surely this could afford no ground for admiration of the Administration that caused it.
I must acknowledge, said Mr. GILES, that I am one of those who do not think so much of the PRESIDENT as some others do. When the PRESIDENT retires from his present station, I wish him to enjoy all possible happiness. I wish him to retire, and that this was the moment of his retirement. He thought the Government of the United States could go on very well without him; and he thought he would enjoy more happiness in his retirement than he possibly could in his present situation. What calamities would attend the United States, and how short the duration of its Independence, if one man alone can be found to fill that capacity! He thought there were thousands of citizens in the United States able to fill that high office, and he doubted not that many may be found whose talents would enable them to fill it with credit and advantage. Although much had been said, and that by many people, about his intended retirement, yet he must acknowledge he felt no uncomfortable sensations about it; he must express his own feelings, he was perfectly easy in prospect of the event. He wished the PRESIDENT as much happiness as any man. He declared he did not regret his retreat; he wished him quietly at his seat at Mount Vernon; he thought he would enjoy more happiness there than in public life. It will be very extraordinary if gentlemen, whose names in the yeas and nays are found in opposition to certain prominent measures of the Administration, should come forward and approve those measures: this we could not expect. He retained an opinion he had always seen reason to support, and no influence under Heaven should prevent him expressing his established sentiments; and he thought the same opinions would soon meet general concurrence. He hoped gentlemen would compliment the PRESIDENT privately, as individuals; at the same time, he hoped such adulation would never pervade that House.
I must make some observation, said Mr. G., on the last paragraph but one, where we call ourselves "the freest and most enlightened nation in the world:" indeed, the whole of that paragraph is objectionable; I disapprove the whole of it. If I am free, if I am happy, if I am enlightened more than others, I wish not to proclaim it on the house top; if we are free, it is not prudent to declare it; if enlightened, it is not our duty in this House to trumpet it to the world; it is no Legislative concern. If gentlemen will examine the paragraph, [referring to that contained in the parenthesis,] it seems to prove that the gentleman who drew it up was going into the field of adulation; which would tarnish a private character. I do think this kind of affection the PRESIDENT gains nothing from. The many long Addresses we hear of, add nothing to the lustre of his character. In the honor we may attempt to give to others we may hurt ourselves. This may prove a self-destroyer; by relying too much on administration, we may rely too little on our own strength.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, that whatever division of the question gentlemen would propose, was indifferent to him; the words of the answer were perfectly congenial with his wishes, and he was prepared to give his opposition to any of the amendments proposed. On mature deliberation, there was not a sentiment in the report but he highly approved. He could not see any thing unnatural or unbecoming in drawing just comparisons of our situation with that of our neighbors; this is the only way we can form a just view of our own happiness. It is a very necessary way to come to a right knowledge of our own situation by comparing it with that of other nations. He would not reproach another people because they are not so happy as we are; but he thought drawing simple comparisons in the way of the report was no reproach. He was not against bringing the comparison down to private life, as the gentleman from Virginia had done; he should think it wrong in a man to exult over his neighbor who was distressed or ignorant, because himself was wealthy or wise. Yet he saw no impropriety in his own family of speaking of their happiness and advantages, compared with that of others; it would awaken in them a grateful sense of their superior enjoyments, while it pointed out the faults and follies of others, only in order that those he had the care of may learn to avoid them: thus while our happiness is pointed out, the miseries of nations involved in distress are delineated to serve as beacons for the United States to steer clear of. He did not, with the gentleman from Virginia, in any degree, doubt of the wisdom or firmness of the Administration of America. In the language of the Address, he entertained a very high opinion of it, "a grateful conviction that the wise, firm, and patriotic Administration of the PRESIDENT had been signally conducive to the success of the present form of Government." Such language as this is the only reward which can be given by a grateful people for labors so eminently useful as those of the PRESIDENT had been. This was not his sentiment merely, it was the sentiment of the people of America. Every public body were conveying their sentiments of gratitude throughout the whole extent of the Union. Why then should this House affect a singularity, when our silence on these points would only convey reproach instead of respect. If these sentiments were true, why not express them? But if, on the contrary, what the gentleman asserted, that the Administration of the PRESIDENT had been neither wise, firm, nor patriotic, then he would concur with the motion for striking out; but he was not convinced of the truth of this assertion; and while this is not proved, he should vote against the motion.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, he could not agree with the motion of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HARPER,) because his motion was for substituting other words in the place of those in the report, without any reason whatever. If the gentleman, by altering the phraseology, can make the sentiment any better, by all means let it be done: but if the sentiment is not to be changed, why alter it merely to substitute other words? On the whole, Mr. S. observed, that he did not see the answer could in any degree be reproached. There are no sentiments in it but what are justifiable on the ground of truth; they are free from adulation. It is such an expression of national regret and gratitude as the circumstance calls for; a regret at the retirement of a faithful and patriotic Chief Magistrate from office. A regret and gratitude which he believed to be the sentiment of Americans.
Mr. SWANWICK began by observing that there were points in the Address in which all gentlemen seemed to agree, while on other parts they cannot agree. We all agree in our desire to pay the PRESIDENT every possible mark of respect; but we very materially disagree wherein a comparison is drawn between this and foreign nations. If we are happy and other nations are not so, it is but well for us; but he thought it would be much more prudent in us to let other nations discover it, and not make a boast of it ourselves. It is very likely that those nations whom we commiserate may think themselves as happy as we are: they may feel offended to hear of our comparisons. If we refer to the British Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speeches, he would tell us that is the happiest and most prosperous nation upon earth. How then can we commiserate with it as an unfortunate country? If, again, we look to France, that country which we have pointed out as full of wretchedness and distress, yet we hear them boast of their superiority of light and freedom, and we have reason to believe not without foundation. A gentleman had talked about the flourishing state of our agriculture, and asserted that our late commercial calamities were not proofs of our want of prosperity, which the gentleman compared to specks in the sun. That gentleman speaks as though he lived at a distance. Has he heard of no commercial distresses, when violations so unprecedented have of late occurred? One merchant has to look for his property at Halifax, another at Bermuda, another at Cape Françoise, another at Gonaives, &c.; all agree that they have suffered, and that by the war. These are distresses gentlemen would not like to feel themselves. Mr. S. said he had felt for these occurrences. We are not exempt from troubles: probably we may have suffered as much as other nations who are involved in the war. It is a question whether France has been distressed at all by the war. She has collected gold and silver in immense quantities by her conquests, together with the most valuable stores of the productions of the arts; as statues, paintings, and manuscripts of inestimable worth; and at sea has taken far more in value than she has lost: besides, her armies are subsisting on the requisitions her victories obtain. And has England gained nothing by the war? If we hearken to Mr. Pitt, we may believe they are very great gainers. Surely the islands in the West and East Indies, Ceylon, and the Cape of Good Hope, the key to the East Indies, are advantages gained; besides the quantity of shipping taken from our merchants. Mr. S. thought if we were to compare, we should find those nations had gained by the war, while we had lost; and of course there was no reason for us to boast of our advantages.
Mr. W. SMITH next rose, and observed that gentlemen wished to compliment the PRESIDENT, but took away every point on which encomium could be grounded. One denies the prosperity of the country, another the free and enlightened state of the country, and another refuses the PRESIDENT the epithet of wise and patriotic.
Mr. GILES here rose to explain. If he was meant, he must think the gentleman was wrong in his application. He said he had never harbored a suspicion of the good intentions of the PRESIDENT, nor did he deny his patriotism; but the wisdom and firmness of his Administration he had doubted. He thought him a good meaning man, but often misled.
Mr. SMITH again rose, and said, he must confess himself at a loss for that refinement to discover between the wisdom and patriotism of the PRESIDENT, and that of his Administration. It was moved to strike out this acknowledgment of wisdom and firmness. What were we to substitute as complimentary to him in its place? The first paragraph proposed to be struck out related to our speaking of the tranquillity of this country, compared to nations involved in war. Could this give offence, because we feel pleasure in being at peace? It was only congratulating our own constituents on the happiness we enjoy. To appreciate the value of peace, it was necessary to compare it with a state of war. It was the wisdom of this country to keep from war, and other nations hold it up as exemplary in us. The gentleman himself has declared his wish for the preservation of peace; and though he admires it, and nations admire it in us, yet we are not to compare our state with nations involved in the calamities of war, in order to estimate our enjoyments. The words of this Address are not a communication to a foreign minister, it is a congratulation to our own Chief Magistrate of the blessings he, in common with us, enjoys. Mr. S. hoped the words would not be struck out.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker), said, that he did not rise to accept the challenge given by the gentleman who spoke last from South Carolina, and to point out a nation more free and enlightened than ours; nor did he mean to contest the fact of ours being the freest and most enlightened in the world, as declared in the reported Address, but he was nevertheless of opinion that it did not become them to make that declaration, and thus to extol themselves by a comparison with, and at the expense of all others. Although those words were in his view objectionable, he was far from assenting to the motion for striking out the seven or eight last clauses of the Address. The question of order having been decided, Mr. D. said he would remind the committee, that if they wished to retain, or even to amend, any section or sentence of all that was proposed to be struck out, they ought to give their negatives to this motion, as the only means of accomplishing their purpose. It was sufficient, therefore, for those who were opposed to the question for striking out the whole, to show that any part included within it ought to be preserved. Not unnecessarily to waste time, by lengthening the debate, he would take the clause first in order, and confine his remarks to that alone. This part of the Address had certainly not been read, or had been misunderstood and misrepresented by the member from Pennsylvania.
Mr. AMES said, if gentlemen meant to agree to strike out the whole as proposed, in order to adopt those words substituted by the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. HARPER), he must observe that he thought this would be as far from giving satisfaction to others, who, it appeared, wanted no substitute. He, therefore, hoped that kind of influence would not prevail on this occasion. The gentleman who made the motion did it to accommodate matters, and not because he himself objected to the answer reported.
It is well known that a committee of five members, opposite in sentiment, was appointed to prepare a respectful Address in answer to the PRESIDENT's Speech. [Here the original instructions were read.] As it was the duty of the committee to prepare a respectful Address, it cannot be matter of surprise, although it may of disapprobation with some, that the committee did their duty, and have taken notice of the several matters recommended to the House in that Speech. Respecting the particular notice they have taken, it might have been thought that some difficulty would occur. He said he need not observe, that the committee had reason to imagine that the form of the report would be agreeable to the House, as they were unanimous; although there had been in the wording some little difference of opinion, yet all agreed substantially in the Address, from a conviction of the delicacy of the subject. For that reason, if that only, unless the sentiments in the report of the Address should be found inconsistent with truth, he hoped no substitute of a form of words merely would prevail, as it would no longer be that agreed to in the committee, nor could come under their consideration equal to the printed report. He therefore trusted that when the committee came to the question, whether to strike out or not, gentlemen would be guided by no other motive to vote for striking out, than an impropriety in the sentiments through an evident want of truth in them; and if such cannot be discovered, why strike out the expressions?
It had been observed by some gentleman, that the cry of foreign influence is in the country. He did not see such a thing exist. He would not be rudely explicit as to the foundation there was for such a cry; but when it was once raised, the people would judge whether it was fact or not. He could not tell how this influence was produced, but the world would draw a view how far we were under foreign influence. Mr. A. here alluded to the influence which foreign agents wished to have over the minds of the people of this country, in order to support a factious spirit, probably to the appeal lately made to the people. He also alluded to a circumstance when the Imperial Envoy, M. Palm, in 1727, at London, published a rescript, complaining of the conduct of that Court; the spirit of the nation rose, and discord was sown. In consequence of which the Parliament petitioned the King to send the Envoy out of the country for meddling with the concerns of their nation. That is the nation which we call corrupted. Yet a similar affair has occurred here, and it is not to be reprobated; we are not to complain of it, nor even hear it, according to this doctrine. Independence is afraid of injuries, and almost of insults. We must forbear to exult in our peace, our light, our freedom, lest we should give offence to other nations who are not so. This may be the high tone of independence in the views of some people, but I must confess it is not so in mine; but it is probable those people may be wiser than I am, and their views extend farther. Foreign influence exists, and is disgraceful indeed, when we dare admire our own constitution, nor adore God for giving us to feel its happy effects. He thought, respecting the recent complaints of the French Minister, that there was not even a pretext for the accusation.
It had been observed by a gentleman, that the PRESIDENT, no doubt, is a very honest man, and a patriot, but he did not think him a wise man.
Mr. GILES here rose to explain. He said that, in his assertions, he meant not to reflect on his private character. He referred to his Administration. No doubt but the gentleman possessed both.
Mr. AMES said, he considered well what the gentleman had said. As a private man, his integrity and goodness cannot be doubted; but in his Administration--here we are to stop short; not a word about that; it won't bear looking into; it has been neither firm nor wise. If the House, in their Address to him, were to say, we think you a very honest, well-designing man, but you have been led astray, sometimes to act treacherously, and even dishonest in your Administration--we think you a peaceful man, and though much iniquity may have been practised in your Government, yet we think you are not in fault; on the whole, sir, we wish you snugly in Virginia. Such sentiments as these I do not like. Is this an Address or an insult? Is this the mark of respect we ought to show to the first man in the nation? Mr. A. observed, that he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. SMITH), who said, that the President would carry daggers in his heart with him into his retreat from public life, if we refuse him our testimony of gratitude. No, he bears in his breast a testimony of his purity of motive; a conscious rectitude, while in public life, which daggers could not pierce. He would retire with a good conscience; perhaps it would be said this was adulation, but let it be remembered this was truth; this was not flattery; let gentlemen deny this; let them prove that this is not the will of their constituents. The country would judge our opinions when we come to give our yeas or nays; then the real friends of that man would be known.
The gentleman wishes him back to Virginia, was glad he designed to go; he did not regret his resignation. His name will appear in that opinion. The whole of the PRESIDENT's life would stamp his character. His country, and the admiring world knew it; and history keeps his fame, and will continue to keep it. We may be singular in our opinions of him, but that will not make his character with the world the less illustrious. We now are to accept of his resignation without a tribute of respect. We are not to speak of him as either wise or firm. We can only say he is an honest man: this would scarcely be singular; many a man is honest without any other good qualifications. What circle would gentlemen fix the committee in to amend this Address, if they are not to give scope to these sentiments? Better appoint no committee at all. If we address the PRESIDENT at all, I hope it will be respectfully, for loth respect is insult in disguise. I hope we shall not alter the original draft of the Address, but agree according to our former intentions to present a respectful and cordial Address.
Mr. SWANWICK rose to explain to those parts of the observations of some gentlemen who had lately spoken (Mr. DAYTON and Mr. AMES) on that part of the paragraph, which speaks of our gratitude to Providence. He should be sorry if such an idea was entertained from any thing he had observed. It was not that part of the paragraph, but the part where we are contrasted with other nations, that he objected to principally. Although, he must observe, it was not spoken in a style common to devotion, to tell Providence how wise and enlightened we were. It does not boast of our philanthropy, to say how much wiser and better we are than other nations. He thought the gentleman's reference to a clergyman very curious. It would not be right in us to say to God, we thank thee, we are wiser or more enlightened than others! If we are so, let us rejoice in it, and not offend others by our boasting. Gentlemen say, we are happier than though we were at war; are we at peace? No: we are involved in the worst of wars. Witness our spoliations from Algerine, English, and French cruisers, from some of which he himself had suffered materially. The PRESIDENT does not think we are at peace: he recommends a navy as the only efficient security to our commerce. How could that little island (England) command such influence in foreign dominions? It is by her navy. We cannot boast of such power. While we think ourselves much happier and stronger than others, others think us more diminutive; let us not boast. He feared that the revenues of this country would suffer materially through the great stagnation of commerce. He did not think they would be as productive as formerly. He feared it was too generally known, that this was not a time of very great prosperity. As he did not, for one, feel the prosperous situation of the country, he could not consent to violate his feelings by speaking contrary to them. The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. AMES) last session, spoke with great eloquence and at great length of the horror of war; which he considered as inevitable if the British Treaty (then the subject of debate) was not carried into effect.
Mr. CHRISTIE moved for the committee to rise. The House divided on the motion; 43 members appeared against it, 31 only in favor of it. It was lost.
Mr. GILES rose and observed that he should not have troubled the committee with any further observations, but his ideas had been misrepresented; although he endeavored to prevent a possibility of misconstruction, yet it seems he had not been able to accomplish his wish. It was not wonderful, he said, that the PRESIDENT's popularity should be introduced into the debate when it had been so long in question. It had been too commonly done, he thought, but he hoped the influence of it would not be very great. As to the unanimity of the committee who drew up the Address, he cared very little about it; he should be extremely sorry to see it have any influence on the members of that House.
Gentlemen have said, that if we take out the expressions of our sense of the wisdom and firmness of the Administration of the PRESIDENT, they cannot find any ground on which to compliment him; if so, he for one would not be willing to present an Address at all. But his views were quite different; he thought it could be effectually done without adulation. He could not consent to acknowledge the wisdom and firmness of his Administration. Gentlemen had inquired for instances in evidence of this assertion. He said, that without seeking for more instances, that of the British Treaty was a standing proof in support of the assertion. Though many gentlemen believe nothing has been done injurious to the United States through that treaty, yet I acknowledge I see very great danger; we are not now in that state of security which could be wished. It is well known that the operation of the British Treaty is the groundwork of all the recent complaints of the French Government. It may be said that many of the complaints of the French Minister originated from actions previous to the British Treaty. It may be so, but that was the means of calling forth complaints which, perhaps, would otherwise never have been made; else why did not this calamity befall us before? It certainly may be ascribed to that instrument. Gentlemen may talk as they please about the law of nations; but the law of nations is, that a neutral nation shall not do any thing to benefit one belligerent power to the injury of another. Mr. G. said, he thought matters carried a serious aspect, and he very much disapproved of the declaration of a gentleman (Mr. AMES) who says, now is the time of danger; we are on the eve of a war with France, now let us boldly assert our rights. At the time the British Treaty was debating on, that gentleman was overcome with the prospect of a war; he then depicted it in horrible forms; but now how different his language! He now seems not afraid to embrace all its horrors, and was zealously calling out for the nation to support the Administration. Why did we not hear this when the British spoliated on our commerce! If we are upon the eve of a war with France, as the gentleman supposes, it will be disastrous to this country; we have reason to deplore it; it will be calamitous indeed. France has more power to injure this country than any nation besides, and none we can injure less. What an influence can she command over our commerce? She can exclude us from our own ports; spoil our trade with Great Britain, and from her own extensive country; she can shut us out from the East Indies, as well as the West Indies; ruin our trade in the Mediterranean, which, owing to the late conquests of the French, may be rendered very flourishing and important to us; and by her alliance, offensive and defensive, with Spain, we not only have another enemy, but lose our late advantages in the navigation of the Mississippi. Suppose, by the influence of her politics, the doctrine of liberty and equality were to be preached on the other side of the Alleghany mountains, what numerous enemies may they breed in our own country? France can wound us most, and we have the least reason to provoke her. It would be policy in her to go to war with us; by ruining our trade with England, she could give a violent wound to her enemy; yet that gentleman says, now is the time to assert our rights, now we are in danger. The war-whoop and the hatchet, of which the gentleman spoke so feelingly last session, is no longer in his thoughts. If this was the only reason he had, it would be enough to influence his vote against an acknowledgment of the wisdom and firmness that has dictated our Administration.
Mr. WILLIAMS rose and said, he was sorry to trouble the committee at such a late hour, but he could not be satisfied with giving a silent vote on an occasion when the PRESIDENT's popularity was doubted. He thought members ought to speak the will of the people they represent. He could assert that it was not merely his own opinion he spoke, but that of his constituents, when he voted for the Address as reported. He was sorry to hear the gentleman last up speak in the style he had done, although he owned it was not altogether new to him. The gentleman wished the first clause to be struck out. Mr. W. thought it was the duty of every pious man to thank God for the benefits he enjoys. And shall not we, as a nation, thank him for keeping us from a state of war? Gentlemen's ideas were to strike the whole out in a mass; but he hoped they would not be gratified. Mr. W. said, he was very sorry to hear the gentleman speak against the wisdom and firmness of the PRESIDENT, which assertion seemed to have its foundation in the Treaty concluded with Great Britain. He would ask the gentleman whether that act of ours should have any influence on our situation with France? Wherein have we differed from the compact made with France by our treaty made with that country? We surely had a right to treat with Great Britain, else we could not be an independent nation; and France will not deny this. In 1778, the Ambassador of France informed the British Court that his nation had entered into a treaty with the United States, and at the same time informed them that great attention had been paid by the contracting parties not to stipulate any exclusive advantage in favor of the French nation, and that there was reserved, on the part of the United States, the liberty of treating with any nation whatsoever upon the same footing of equality and reciprocity. But the gentleman (Mr. GILES) says, we ought not to give an advantage to an enemy. Mr. W. said, that no advantage was given to Britain, but, on the contrary, the article complained of must be of advantage to France; it is an encouragement for American vessels to go to their ports; it insures them against loss, if they are interrupted in their voyage. It had been said that it would be to the interest of France to go to war with us; if they consider it so, all that gentleman can say will not prevent it. When we reflect on a Treaty entered into on this principle with Great Britain, should France complain?
THURSDAY, December 15.
Address to the President.
The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the answer to the PRESIDENT's Address, Mr. MUHLENBERG in the chair.
The question before the committee was Mr. GILES' motion for striking out.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, he sincerely wished that such an answer might be agreed to, as would give a general satisfaction. He hoped some mode would be adopted to unite the wishes of every gentleman; his disposition, he said, led him to vote for the paragraph; he thought himself at liberty so to do, as he was satisfied the Administration had been, in many instances, wise and firm. He thought it improper that such debate should take place at the present time. He could see no inconvenience that could arise from voting for the Address. The words on which most stress had been laid, were those expressive of the wisdom and firmness of the PRESIDENT's administration. He declared he thought it had much contributed to the success of this country; and if success had attended his measures, there could be nothing inconsistent in their acknowledging it; which was all the compliment necessary to give satisfaction.
Mr. RUTHERFORD.--My colleague has in a great measure anticipated my sentiments on this occasion. I am sorry for the mistaken zeal the gentlemen of the committee should have shown for the PRESIDENT, by introducing expressions into the Address so exceptionable, and which should be subject to such an uncomfortable exposure of that character.
I was able yesterday only to attend a part of the debate, through indisposition, but what I did stay to hear, hurt me very much. I heard gentlemen speak ill of the common parent of our country, whom we all revere; and was a slip, but one criminal slip, to rob the PRESIDENT of his good name? We have seen the goodness of the heart of that man, and with satisfaction. We have seen him wrestling with his own feelings to continue in the important and weighty business of Government; we have seen him contending with two great rival nations, and yet preserved peace. When he had made a slip, the people of America have stepped forward to assist him, and dropped the generous tear, sensible that to err is human, and that we are all liable to do wrong. I am sure that my colleagues and every one in the House hold the character and virtue of that man in high esteem. I am sorry to see that division of sentiment which has taken place; it would make the world believe that we wish to rob him of those qualifications. It is the justice and duty of this House to do that man, that patriot, all the honor they can, whilst it is the interest of this nation to hold in view those great points with generous satisfaction, and good wishes to the man who has stepped forward, and not in vain, to the support of our Republic in the war, and under Divine assistance was made our deliverer. And now for gentlemen to come here and speak of the troubles of the country, ascribing all our adversity to him, it is like applying cold water where the strongest energy is necessary. Again I would repeat, that if that man, our common parent, has committed errors, it is no more than we all may do--it is the general lot of all. If there have been faults in the Administration, I do not think they lie at his door, but at his counsellors'; he has had bad counsellors; his advisers are to blame, and not him. I never saw how he could have done otherwise than he did. And now, sir, said Mr. R., it is our duty to bear those great actions and generous sentiments in our view, that, on his retirement from his public station, we may render him all the respect due to his character. Nor would I less remember our situation with France, that great and generous Republic, under whom we owe our liberty. Let us not give offence to her, but by every mark of gratitude and respect, act a part consistent with a just sense of our peaceable intention. Let us act with the greatest circumspection and deliberation.
Mr. LIVINGSTON was sorry the answer was not drafted so as to avoid this debate. He said it was his sincere desire and hope that the candor of gentlemen who advocated the Address in its present form, and those who wished it amended, would so combine as to make it agreeable to all. He said he intended to oppose the amendments which had been proposed, although he did not see the Address every way right; with a view to reconcile parties, when the present motion was disposed of, he should move to strike out some words, in order to insert others. He could not, like some gentlemen, draw consolation from the misfortunes of other nations; their distresses were rather matter of regret; nor did he see a propriety, as another gentleman had done, of likening our affairs with those of the members of a family; but, even if it would bear, he could not see that tranquillity in this family as was expressed. His only objection, he said, to the paragraph in question, was the words "tranquil prosperity." He believed the United States did not enjoy that tranquil prosperity; on the contrary, he thought this was a time of great calamity in the country, and he thought that it was owing, principally, to the measures of the Government. There were other clauses in the Address, he said, he should, when they came to be considered, make objections to, and he thought they could be all easily removed by motions suitable; however, he said there were many sentiments in the Address in which he heartily concurred. He should vote against the striking out the eight clauses in question, as he thought such amendments could be proposed as would make the Address meet his hearty concurrence, and he believed give general satisfaction.
Mr. GILES' motion was then put, to strike out those clauses, and negatived.
Mr. PARKER renewed the motion he made yesterday, to strike out the words "freest and most enlightened in the world."
Mr. AMES hoped that the motion to strike out would not prevail; for, without being over tenacious on the subject, he must give a preference to the copy of the report which was printed; the members had the advantage of weighing it in their minds, which they would lose by adopting the substitute; besides, he thought the ideas were so crowded in that proposed, as to render it heavy; he hoped the reported Address would be agreed to.
Mr. HARPER's motion was then put and negatived. Twenty-five members only voting for the motion.
Mr. PARKER again moved to strike out "freest and most enlightened," &c.
Mr. W. SMITH said yesterday, in the discussion on the subject, gentlemen had assigned for their reason to strike out those words that other nations would be offended at us. It was usual, he said, for nations to applaud themselves, and he thought it could give no offence to any. He did not hear gentlemen mention what nation was meant. He presumed the only nation that could be alluded to was the French Republic. If, however, it can be proved that they have used similar language, he supposed it would give gentlemen some ease as to this particular. In looking over some papers, he had seen several bombastical expressions in a note of Barthelemy, a report to the Convention of Laviere, and of Cambaceres, in the name of the three committees. In one are these words, "a Government so powerful as the French." In another, he calls it "the most enlightened in the civilized world." In another, "the first in the universe." He hoped that while that nation could use expressions like these, the gentlemen of this House would not think the expressions referred to would give offence to that or any other nation.
Mr. PARKER said, when he made the motion he did not refer to any particular nation; he had neither France nor England in view; he did not wish to see us contrast our political situation with that of any other country. His objections to the words, he said, arose from our making the declaration ourselves. Our Government, he acknowledged, was free; it was the best, in his opinion, any where. He wished to believe the people as enlightened as any other; he believed they were, and if they were not, they had only themselves to blame; but however enlightened or free we were, in his opinion, we were not the proper organs to declare it; however enlightened we might be, he thought the last four years Administration had convinced many, as well as himself, that the Administration was not the most enlightened; if they had, they would not have suffered such shameful spoliations on our commerce, and shameful acts of cruelty to our seamen. He said the two little monarchies of Denmark and Sweden, neither of which, in point of extent, can be compared with the United States, more (to use the comparison of the gentleman from Pennsylvania yesterday) than a speck is to the sun; nor are they either of them in population nearly equal to the United States; and although they are surrounded by the greatest warlike powers in a belligerent state, yet they have preserved their neutrality inviolate; their ships have not been wantonly seized, nor have their seamen been torn from their ships, or whipped at the gang-way of British ships-of-war, or been shot by their press-gangs. To mention the instances of British cruelty towards our seamen in every instance that could be adduced, would take up time unnecessarily; one alone, that recently happened, I shall relate:
The brother of a member of this House (Mr. FRANKLIN, of N. C.) was impressed on board a British ship-of-war in the West Indies; he was unacquainted with seamanship, having only made a passage from North Carolina to the Islands; being awkward and not being a seaman, he was discharged. The same evening, a press-gang of the same ship fell in with him and made him a prisoner; in attempting to make his escape, he was shot at. The ball was aimed at his body; it was not winged with death, but the young man was wounded in the hand.
Mr. AMES said, if any man were to call himself more free and enlightened than his fellows, it would be considered as arrogant self-praise. His very declaration would prove that he wanted sense as well as modesty, but a nation might be called so, by a citizen of that nation, without impropriety; because, in doing so, he bestows no praise of superiority on himself; he may be in fact, and may be sensible that he is less enlightened than the wise of other nations. This sort of national eulogium may, no doubt, be fostered by vanity, and grounded in mistake; it is sometimes just, it is certainly common, and not always either ridiculous or offensive. It did not say that France or England had not been remarkable for enlightened men; their literati are more numerous and distinguished than our own. The character, with respect to this country, he said, was strictly true. Our countrymen, almost universally, possess some property and some pretensions of learning--two distinctions so remarkably in their favor, as to vindicate the expression objected to. But go through France, Germany, and most countries of Europe, and it will be found that, out of fifty millions of people, not more than two or three had any pretensions to knowledge, the rest being, comparatively with Americans, ignorant. In France, which contains twenty-five millions of people, only one was calculated to be in any respect enlightened, and, perhaps, under the old system, there was not a greater proportion possessed property; whilst in America, out of four millions of people, scarcely any part of them could be classed upon the same ground with the rabble of Europe. That class called vulgar, canaille, rabble, so numerous there, does not exist here as a class, though our towns have many individuals of it. Look at the lazzaroni of Naples; there are twenty thousand or more houseless people, wretched, and in want! He asked whether, where men wanted every thing, and were in proportion of 29 to 1, it was possible they could be trusted with power? Wanting wisdom and morals, how would they use it? It was, therefore, that the iron-hand of despotism was called in by the few who had any thing, to preserve any kind of control over the many. This evil, as it truly was, and which he did not propose to commend, rendered true liberty hopeless. In America, out of four millions of people, the proportion which cannot read and write, and who, having nothing, are interested in plunder and confusion, and disposed for both, is small. In the Southern States, he knew there were people well-informed; he disclaimed all design of invidious comparison; the members from the South would be more capable of doing justice to their constituents, but in the Eastern States he was more particularly conversant, and knew the people in them could generally read and write, and were well-informed as to public affairs. In such a country, liberty is likely to be permanent. They are enlightened enough to be free. It is possible to plant it in such a soil, and reasonable to hope that it will take root and flourish long, as we see it does. But can liberty, such as we understand and enjoy, exist in societies where the few only have property, and the many are both ignorant and licentious?
Mr. CHRISTIE wished to make an amendment to the paragraph, which he thought would answer the end equally as well as striking it out; if agreeable to the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. PARKER,) he would move to put the word "among" after the word "freest," which would read "the freest and among the most enlightened." He could not say we were the most enlightened, but he did think us the most free; not that he was afraid of offending any nation, but he thought this a more consistent declaration.
Mr. SWANWICK said, nobody doubted but we were free and enlightened, but he thought their declaration was no evidence of the truth of it. He thought the last amendment very good, but it would be still better if the gentleman would put the word "among" a little further back, so as to read "among the freest and most enlightened." A pacific disposition could not be proved by any thing so well as treating others with respect as well as ourselves; we may not be exclusively free or enlightened. He hoped it would be thus altered.
Mr. CHRISTIE thought we were the freest people in the world; he, therefore, could not agree to the amendment last proposed.
Mr. COIT could not say with the gentleman last up, that we were the freest, but he was very willing to agree with the amendment of a gentleman, that we were among the freest and most enlightened; he thought the first amendment much improved by this; he said it removed great part of the difficulty from the minds of many gentlemen; however, he hoped no unnecessary time would be taken up with such trifles.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, that some of the observations which had been brought into the present debate, were of too delicate a nature to be commented upon or even repeated; he should not, therefore, follow the gentleman who spoke last, in his inquiry, how far this country was exposed to be annoyed by France in the possible, though happily not probable, event of a rupture with France?
As to the words "freest and most enlightened," which were more immediately the subject of discussion, he did not object against them on the ground of fact, but he considered the expression as resolving itself into a question of decorum and delicacy, the rules of which appeared to him to be violated, in their ascribing to themselves such a superlative preference, however true, in a comparison with every other people. The amendment of the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. CHRISTIE) very much softened the terms and rendered them more palatable.
Mr. KITCHELL thought we had given a very good proof that we are not the most enlightened people in the world, by this discussion; and if we declare to the world that we are, that declaration will be a still more glaring proof. It appeared to him quite unnecessary; he thought it spending a great deal of time to no purpose; it was not important enough for that waste of time, when the session was to be so short; he therefore wished the question to be put.
Mr. SITGREAVES agreed that a very useless and improper latitude had been assumed in the discussion, and he thought that a few moments would not be misspent in recalling the attention of the committee to the real question before them. The assertion that we are the freest and most enlightened nation in the world was found fault with, and while some gentlemen moved to strike it out altogether, others proposed to qualify it in different ways. Mr. S. believed that, in any modification of the expression, the criticism was, in itself, extremely unimportant; and if, as some gentlemen had treated it, it was a mere question of decorum, he should feel perfectly indifferent whether it was rejected or retained. But when he heard one member deny that we are the most free, and another that we are enlightened; and most especially when he heard that the expression was contended to be improper in relation to the acts and the administration of the Government, he confessed it did appear to him to be of some consequence not to part with the expression, lest, by doing so, the House should give countenance to these objections. For his own part, he believed the proposition to be true; he conceived the word "enlightened," as applicable to political illumination; and not to our rank in arts, sciences, or literature; and he considered the sentence as equivalent to an assertion that we enjoy the most enlightened system of political freedom extant. In this view of it, he thought it literally true; and, if true, he could not discern the indecorum of declaring so on the present occasion. He was strongly impressed with the propriety of the idea which he had suggested yesterday, that this should be considered as an act of intercourse purely domestic, an expression of self-gratulation on our superior happiness, which, by the forms of society, ought not to be noticed by any other nation. We may be deemed, without too bold a figure, to be speaking in soliloquy; and to listen to what we say would be no better than eavesdropping: the indecorum would rest with those who overhear us, and not with ourselves. It could not be denied that such a belief of the superiority of our political situation ought to be cherished among us. If we did not believe it, we should take shame to ourselves, because our Government is the work of our own hands. If the belief that we are free and enlightened is valuable, the expression of it is also valuable, because it tends to preserve us so; it is a sentiment which we cannot dwell upon too much.
But, he contended, the propriety of this or any other expression could not be justly estimated by considering it in the abstract--it ought to be viewed in its application and use. We are about to lose the services of the PRESIDENT, who is admitted on all hands to have been a useful and patriotic officer. The House of Representatives are desirous that he should take with him to his honorable retirement the only reward which the nature and spirit of our political institutions admit of--the approbation of his country. It will surely be admitted that we ought to give to the expression of this approbation all the value of which it is susceptible; and it is obvious, from the slightest perusal of this paragraph in the Address, that the words in question give to it all its force and energy, and that without them, it would be an unmeaning compliment. The spectacle of a nation, neither free nor enlightened, offering to its first Magistrate the tribute of approbation and applause, would neither be "novel nor interesting," since the days of history are stained with numberless instances of prostituted praise and courtly adulation; but when it is the voluntary homage of a free and enlightened people, offered with sincerity to an illustrious fellow-citizen, it is truly a precious reward for patriotic labors. Those who object to this expression, therefore, ought to move to strike out the whole paragraph. To reject the words would totally defeat the intended compliment; to qualify them would spoil it. Mr. S., therefore, wished to retain them as they were reported.
Mr. THATCHER said, he did not think the object of the present question of much consequence, nor did he care much about it; however, he would wish to see the members more unanimous on the subject; he would, therefore, propose an amendment, which he thought would have some tendency towards it, which was to leave out the superlative, and let the passage read, "The spectacle of a free and enlightened nation."
Mr. HENDERSON commended the ingenuity of the last motion, as he thought it would more concentrate the ideas of the members. He would vote for it.
Mr. CHRISTIE's motion was then put, and negatived.
Mr. THATCHER's motion was put, and passed in the affirmative.
Mr. LIVINGSTON then moved to strike out the words from the next paragraph, "Wise, firm, and patriotic Administration," and insert in their place, "Your wisdom, firmness, and patriotism has been." He could not say that all the acts of the Administration had been wise and firm; but he would say, that he believed the wisdom, firmness, and patriotism of the PRESIDENT had been signally conducive to the success of the present form of government. He was willing to give him every mark of respect possible, but he believed some of his public acts of late rendered the present motion necessary.
Mr. W. SMITH opposed the amendment, as he thought the gentleman who proposed it conceived the words to imply more than was meant by them--they are not meant to include every act of the Executive. He thought that the Administration in general had been wise, firm, and patriotic; that the wisdom and firmness of the PRESIDENT had been conducive to the success of the present form of government. Had not the words been put in the reported Address, he thought it would not have been of consequence whether they were ever inserted; but the difference is very great. Now they are inserted, they are made public, and, to erase them now, and substitute words in any manner deficient in sentiment to them, would be to carry censure and not respect. That the Administration of that valuable man had been wise and conducive to the good of this country, will not admit of a doubt; and for us to rob him of that honor which is his due, would be insult. And any thing short of the words in the Address he thought would not carry a proper mark of respect.
Mr. GILES observed, that he thought the Administration had been very deficient in wisdom. Many gentlemen, he said, were very particularly opposed to the British Treaty and to the great emission of transferable paper. Could it then be supposed these gentlemen could, in this instance, so change their opinion? The gentleman last up had said, that because the words were in the reported Address they ought not to be struck out. He thought that the House had now as much power to act as though the committee had made no report. He thought they ought not in any way to be influenced by the report of the select committee, but act as though they had to form the Address themselves. He believed that the PRESIDENT possessed both wisdom and firmness. He was willing to compliment the PRESIDENT as much as possible in his personal character, but he could not think it applicable to his Administration. He thought the amendment proposed would meet his concurrence, and he hoped it would be agreed to.
Mr. GILBERT hoped and presumed that the motion of his colleague would not obtain. He understood that the House addressed the PRESIDENT in answer to his Speech, always as a public man, and not in his private capacity. How extraordinary, then, will it appear in this House to refer only to his private conduct! It is, in substance, complimenting him as a private man, while the very words reprobate him in his public station. We are now to address him as PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. We may tell him of his wisdom and his firmness, but what of all that unless we connect it with his Administration?
Mr. ISAAC SMITH.--The sin of ingratitude is worse than the sin of witchcraft; and we shall damn ourselves to everlasting fame if we withhold the mighty tribute due to the excellent man whom we pretend to address. Posterity, throughout all future generations, will cry out shame on us. Our sons will blush that their fathers were his foes. If excess were possible on this occasion, it would be a glorious fault, and worth a dozen of little, sneaking, frigid virtues. I abhor a grudging bankrupt payment, where the debtor is much more benefited than the creditor. The gentleman from Virginia misrepresents his own constituents--I am sure he does all the rest of the Union. On the present occasion we ought not to consult our own little feelings and sensibilities. We should speak with the heart and in the voice of millions, and then we should speak warm and loud. What! "Damn with faint praise:" and suppress or freeze the warm, energetic, grateful sensations of almost every honest heart from Maine to Tennessee! I will not do it! Every line shall burn! This is a left-handed way of adoring the people.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, the motion then before them was of great importance, and every man who thought favorably of the PRESIDENT's Administration should there make a stand. For, if the words were struck out, it would convey an idea to the world that it was the opinion of that House that the Administration of the PRESIDENT had neither been wise nor patriotic. Gentlemen might very well concur in the Address in its present form, who did not think that every single act of the PRESIDENT had been wise and firm, since it was his Administration in general which was referred to, and not each individual act. He hoped, therefore, the amendment offered would be decidedly opposed, and that the words proposed to be struck out would be retained.
Mr. GALLATIN thought the words objected to were conceived to mean more than they really did mean by gentlemen who supported the present motion; nor could he conceive how the words "firmness and patriotism," proposed to be inserted, could apply to any thing but the public character of the PRESIDENT. On the first view of the Address, Mr. G. said, he thought with the gentlemen from New York and Virginia, and it was not without considerable hesitation that he brought himself to agree to this part of the Address. He found, however, on further examination, that they did not go so far as he at first thought they did. Had they approved of every measure of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, he should have voted against them. But, in the first place, he would observe, that his Administration did not include Legislative acts; so that whatever evils had arisen from the funding or banking systems were not to be charged to the PRESIDENT. They did not mean to pay compliments to themselves but to the PRESIDENT: therefore, the words in question related only to the Administration of the PRESIDENT alone, and not to those officers of State which had been supposed by some gentlemen. The first question was, then, whether that Administration had been marked with wisdom, firmness, and patriotism? And, he would briefly say, so far as related to the internal situation of the country, it had borne these marks. He did not recollect any instance where he could say here was any want of wisdom, or there of firmness or patriotism. If they proceeded to foreign affairs, a great number of members were found (he for one) who wished that certain acts had not taken place; and, if he thought, in giving approbation to this Address, he was approving of these measures, he would certainly vote against it. But, as the gentlemen from South Carolina and New Jersey (Mr. SMITH and the SPEAKER) had observed, as the approbation went to the Administration in toto, it had respect to no particular act. Nor did he believe the literal sense of the words would apply to the business of the late treaty. [He read the words.] The most clear meaning of these words related to the present Government and constitution; and the word "success" could apply to those parts of the Administration only which had had time to be matured. He did not believe that at the present period it could be said that the Treaty with Great Britain had been successful, and, therefore, could not be included within the meaning of the expression. Not meaning to pledge an approbation of that act, and not conceiving that the sentence could have such a meaning, he would vote against the proposed amendment, and for the original.
The question was put on the amendment and negatived. The committee then rose, reported the Address with the amendments, when the House took them up, and having gone through them--
On the question being about to be put on the answer as amended, Mr. BLOUNT wished the yeas and nays might be taken, that posterity might see that he did not consent to the Address.
The main question being put, it was resolved in the affirmative--yeas 67, nays 12, as follows:
YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Theophilus Bradbury, Nathan Bryan, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Joshua Coit, William Cooper, William Craik, James Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, Ezekiel Gilbert, James Gillespie, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Andrew Gregg, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, Thomas Henderson, William Hindman, George Jackson, Aaron Kitchell, Samuel Lyman, James Madison, Francis Malbone, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, John Nicholas, John Page, Josiah Parker, John Patton, John Read, John Richards, Samuel Sewall, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Nathaniel Smith, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William Strudwick, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Mark Thompson, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.
NAYS.--Thomas Blount, Isaac Coles, William B. Giles, Christopher Greenup, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, and Abraham Venable.
Resolved, That the SPEAKER, attended by the House, do present the said Address; and that Mr. AMES, Mr. MADISON, and Mr. SITGREAVES, be a committee to wait on the PRESIDENT to know when and where it will be convenient for him to receive the same.
FRIDAY, December 16.
Mr. AMES, from the committee appointed to wait on the PRESIDENT to know when and where he would receive the answer of this House to his Address, reported that he had appointed to receive it at his house this day at two o'clock.
Address to the President.
The SPEAKER informed the House that the hour was nearly at hand, which the PRESIDENT had appointed for receiving the Address of the House, in answer to his Speech. The members, in a body, accordingly waited upon the PRESIDENT, at his house; and the SPEAKER pronounced the following Address:
"SIR: The House of Representatives have attended to your communication respecting the state of our country, with all the sensibility that the contemplation of the subject and a sense of duty can inspire.
"We are gratified by the information, that measures calculated to ensure a continuance of the friendship of the Indians, and to maintain the tranquillity of the Western frontier, have been adopted; and we indulge the hope that these, by impressing the Indian tribes with more correct conceptions of the justice, as well as power of the United States, will be attended with success.
"While we notice, with satisfaction, the steps that you have taken, in pursuance of the late treaties with several foreign nations, the liberation of our citizens, who were prisoners at Algiers, is a subject of peculiar felicitation. We shall cheerfully co-operate in any further measures that shall appear, on consideration, to be requisite.
"We have ever concurred with you in the most sincere and uniform disposition to preserve our neutral relations inviolate; and it is, of course, with anxiety and deep regret we hear that any interruption of our harmony with the French Republic has occurred; for we feel with you, and with our constituents, the cordial and unabated wish to maintain a perfectly friendly understanding with that nation. Your endeavors to fulfil that wish, and by all honorable means to preserve peace and to restore that harmony and affection, which have heretofore so happily subsisted between the French Republic and the United States, cannot fail, therefore, to interest our attention. And while we participate in the full reliance you have expressed on the patriotism, self-respect, and fortitude of our countrymen, we cherish the pleasing hope that a mutual spirit of justice and moderation will ensure the success of your perseverance.
"The various subjects of your communication will, respectively, meet with the attention that is due to their importance.
"When we advert to the internal situation of the United States, we deem it equally natural and becoming to compare the present period with that immediately antecedent to the operation of the Government, and to contrast it with the calamities in which the state of war still involves several of the European nations, as the reflections deduced from both tend to justify as well as to excite a warmer admiration of our free constitution, and to exalt our minds to a more fervent and grateful sense of piety towards Almighty God for the beneficence of His providence, by which its Administration has been hitherto so remarkably distinguished.
"And while we entertain a grateful conviction that your wise, firm, and patriotic Administration has been signally conducive to the success of the present form of government, we cannot forbear to express the deep sensations of regret with which we contemplate your intended retirement from office.
"As no other suitable occasion may occur, we cannot suffer the present to pass without attempting to disclose some of the emotions which it cannot fail to awaken.
"The gratitude and admiration of your countrymen are still drawn to the recollection of those resplendent virtues and talents which were so eminently instrumental to the achievement of the Revolution, and of which that glorious event will ever be the memorial. Your obedience to the voice of duty and your country, when you quitted reluctantly, a second time, the retreat you had chosen, and first accepted the Presidency, afforded a new proof of the devotedness of your zeal in its service, and an earnest of the patriotism and success which have characterized your Administration. As the grateful confidence of the citizens in the virtues of their Chief Magistrate has essentially contributed to that success, we persuade ourselves that the millions whom we represent, participate with us in the anxious solicitude of the present occasion.
"Yet we cannot be unmindful that your moderation and magnanimity, twice displayed by retiring from your exalted stations, afford examples no less rare and instructive to mankind, than valuable to a Republic.
"Although we are sensible that this event, of itself, completes the lustre of a character already conspicuously unrivalled by the coincidence of virtue, talents, success, and public estimation; yet we conceive we owe it to you, sir, and still more emphatically to ourselves and to our nation, (of the language of whose hearts we presume to think ourselves at this moment the faithful interpreters,) to express the sentiments with which it is contemplated.
"The spectacle of a free and enlightened nation offering, by its Representatives, the tribute of unfeigned approbation to its first citizen, however novel and interesting it may be, derives all its lustre (a lustre which accident or enthusiasm could not bestow, and which adulation would tarnish) from the transcendent merit of which it is the voluntary testimony.
"May you long enjoy that liberty which is so dear to you, and to which your name will ever be so dear; may your own virtues and a nation's prayers obtain the happiest sunshine for the decline of your days and the choicest of future blessings. For our country's sake, for the sake of Republican liberty, it is our earnest wish that your example may be the guide of your successors; and thus, after being the ornament and safeguard of the present age, become the patrimony of our descendants."
To which the PRESIDENT made the following Reply:
"GENTLEMEN: To a citizen whose views were unambitious, who preferred the shade and tranquillity of private life, to the splendor and solicitude of elevated stations, and whom the voice of duty and his country could alone have drawn from his chosen retreat, no reward for his public services can be so grateful as public approbation, accompanied by a consciousness that to render those services useful to that country has been his single aim: and when this approbation is expressed by the Representatives of a free and enlighted nation, the reward will admit of no addition. Receive, gentlemen, my sincere and affectionate thanks for this signal testimony that my services have been acceptable and useful to my country. The strong confidence of my fellow-citizens, while it animated all my actions, ensured their zealous co-operation, which rendered those services successful. The virtue and wisdom of my successors, joined with the patriotism and intelligence of the citizens who compose the other branches of Government, I firmly trust, will lead them to the adoption of measures which, by the beneficence of Providence, will give stability to our system of Government, add to its success, and secure to ourselves and to posterity that liberty which is to all of us so dear.
"While I acknowledge, with pleasure, the sincere and uniform disposition of the House of Representatives to preserve our neutral relations inviolate, and, with them, deeply regret any degree of interruption of our good understanding with the French Republic, I beg you, gentlemen, to rest assured that my endeavors will be earnest and unceasing, by all honorable means, to preserve peace, and to restore that harmony and affection which have heretofore so happily subsisted between our two nations; and with you, I cherish the pleasing hope that a mutual spirit of justice and moderation will crown those endeavors with success.
"I shall cheerfully concur in the beneficial measures which your deliberations shall mature on the various subjects demanding your attention. And while directing your labors to advance the real interests of our country, you receive its blessings; with perfect sincerity my individual wishes will be offered for your present and future felicity.
"G. WASHINGTON."
The members then returned to the House, and having resumed their places, the SPEAKER presented a copy of the PRESIDENT's Answer to the Clerk; which he read.
MONDAY, December 19.
JOHN HATHORN, from New York, and JOHN MILLEDGE, from Georgia, appeared and took their seats.
A new member, to wit, ELISHA R. POTTER, from Rhode Island, in the place of BENJAMIN BOURNE, resigned, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.
MONDAY, December 26.
National University.
Mr. HARPER moved the order of the day, for the House to go into a committee on the establishment of a National University. The House accordingly formed itself into a committee--Mr. COIT in the chair.
When the report was read, Mr. MACON said there was the word "appropriation" in the report. He did not recollect any having been made for that purpose. He wished to know what was meant?
Mr. CRAIK said, authority was given for the PRESIDENT to appropriate about twenty acres of land for the erection of this building; this he supposed to be what was meant.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, that some time or other the institution of a Seminary in this District may be of use, but at present, and in the manner contemplated in this report, it would not do. If carried into effect thus, it will sometime need an appropriation. We are now, said Mr. N., going into the subject, but we know not to what lengths it may carry us; we do not know where it will end. He did not think the time had arrived to incorporate a company for building a National University. It would be taking money from those districts of country which can do for themselves, and would receive no benefit from this institution. It would be inconvenient and inconsistent for people living at a considerable distance to send their children to this University; besides, he thought, the further children are from home, by being less under the eye of their parents, the more their morals would be injured. If it be a National University, it must be for the use of the nation. It will then be necessary to open funds for the purpose of its support. It is recommended by the PRESIDENT, it is true; but this is no argument why we should precipitate the business: it is the last time he will have an opportunity to address this House, and it being an object he should like to see encouraged when it was practicable, he took that opportunity to express it. We are not now in a situation to forward its establishment. It may be done at some time, but Mr. N. thought it would be many years first. That district of country would be many years before it could encourage the hope of such a plan prospering. He thought gentlemen from other parts of the Union would not say they wanted it for their youth. He thought if the House once entered into the subject, the responsibility would fall on it to keep up the institution.
Mr. HARPER said, it did not appear to him that the gentleman last up had attended sufficiently to this report, for he seemed to be much mistaken as to its principle. There was nothing in it that contemplated pledging the United States to find funds for its support; nor was it the object of the report to establish a National University. He agreed with the gentleman, that we were not arrived at a period for such an institution. But gentlemen would see that the object of the commissioners was not to establish a National University or obtain money from the United States, but their direct object was, to be incorporated, so as to be enabled to receive such legacies and donations as may be presented to the institution, and hold it in trust for that purpose. The PRESIDENT had already given nineteen acres of land, and signified his intention to give fifty shares in the Potomac canal whenever there was proper authority to receive endowments. It appears that there is no authority at present. The memorial goes no further than to authorize them to receive such benefactions as may be made, and hold them in trust. How far, then, this went towards involving this House in its support, he should leave the good sense of gentlemen to judge. Mr. H. thought the amount of this memorial could not have any evil tendency, but it may have a good one; for which reason he hoped it would be agreed to.
Mr. BALDWIN did not know any thing, according to his present views, which could be injurious in the report. At present it seemed favorable to him. He had two principal ideas in his mind, which made it appear so; if neither of which was cleared up otherwise, he should vote for it. The first thing he should ask was, Is such a thing desirable? And then, Is there a Seminary so near the spot contemplated, as to make it hostile in this House to encourage this University? He believed there was none that this will injure, but that an establishment like this would be very agreeable in that District. If it was desirable, who could undertake it, who encourage it, like this House? They could not do it themselves. If, then, the step is a proper one, it can never be too soon to commence it, although it may be many years before it may be wanted. The objection may be, that it would be wrong to incorporate a Literary Society; but we have frequent instances of incorporation, and nothing can prove it improper, since no pecuniary aid is required, no grant of money is asked. If it was, I should, like the gentleman before me, (Mr. NICHOLAS,) disapprove of it, but not now seeing reason to object, I shall vote for the report.
Mr. CRAIK.--After the caution the committee had observed in forming their report, to prevent objections, I am sorry they should be charged with things they do not in the least merit. If the report contemplated the raising a fund for the support of this institution from the United States, there might have been some ground for gentlemen's objections; but, as there is not the most distant view of such a thing, I am surprised to hear it objected to. I did not expect it from that gentleman, (Mr. NICHOLAS.) I did not expect to hear him say, that institutions of this kind were not wanted there; it might have come better from gentlemen residing in more distant parts of the United States.
If this subject was now before the House, sir, I should not be against proving, at this time, that it is the duty of the United States to establish a University, and that the sooner it was done the better. But, as this is not the case, as we are only asked to permit its encouragement, by allowing these people to receive benefactions, how can we refuse? Shall we shut the door against individual benevolence? There are appropriations already made to this institution. There is a fund now of fifty shares in the canal, which is now valuable and increasing in value daily. I think the situation for this purpose very good; and the probable increase of the city of Washington will induce many persons to benevolence for this purpose. I know of no situation more central, and believe there is no place of the kind in its neighborhood; and from an established knowledge it would be a very useful and desirable institution, shall vote for it.
Mr. W. LYMAN.--As far as I can understand, the land which is now to be appropriated for this University is the property of the United States. Does not this look as though the United States are to patronize and support the establishment? If we take this step, I shall very much wonder if our next is not to be called upon to produce money. I do not expect much from the liberality of individuals; and can it be expected that people from the remote parts of the United States will send their children to this Seminary? Surely not; and consequently their money will be lost. It will be a natural source of discontent to them to pay their money merely for others to obtain the advantage. It may be very good for people thereabout, but remote parts cannot derive the least advantage from the institution. We are going quite too fast into this business, without attending to probable consequences.
I think it would have been more proper, if these people had only wanted this power, for them to have applied to the State Legislature of Maryland; it would be more to their interest and duty to encourage a Seminary if one is wanted in that place. They have sufficient power vested in them to encourage all such laudable undertakings. For us to encourage this would be to do injury, instead of having a number of schools planted in various parts, they are now all to centre in one; and the people are to neglect all to support this one; as others would become very weak.
I flatter myself to have as liberal sentiments on such institutions as other gentlemen, but I do sincerely think small academies are as useful as this institution for a University. The large institutions are generally out of the reach of people in general, and of the middling class in particular. These small academies have produced many eminent literary characters in the country. If it should be necessary at any time to form a Seminary for the use of that District, Congress would not refuse its encouragement; but to draw money for a National University I hope they never will agree. But gentlemen say this is not asked; true it is not at this time, but there is that in the principle that will most certainly lead to it.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, if it should ever be the policy of the United States to establish a National University, he was of opinion this was an improper time for making the decision. He did not believe the committee who made the report meant to do more than had been stated; but the effect, he said, would be what he predicted; this measure would be looked upon as an entering wedge, and they should hereafter be told they must go through with it. If gentlemen were prepared to sanction an institution of this kind they would of course do it; he was not prepared to vote for the measure, but should give it his negative.
Mr. NICHOLAS said he had not been convinced by the observations of gentlemen who had spoken in favor of this report that all the mischiefs would not follow this measure which he before predicted. He inquired into the purpose of establishing a National University. The PRESIDENT had said (and the commissioners after him) it was to establish a uniformity of principles and manners throughout the Union. This, he believed, could not be effected by any institution. If, said he, you incorporate men to build a University, are you not pledging yourselves to make up any deficiency? and, as the building must be commensurate with the object, they would have an enormous empty house continually calling upon them for contributions to its support. Whatever moderation had been observed in framing this report, Mr. N. said it was like many others which came before them: it was so covered as not to show half the mischiefs which would attend it. If a plan of education was wanted for that District, let members from that part of the country say so, and he would be ready to afford them every necessary assistance; but he would not think of going into the scheme of a National University.
The district of country from whence it came might stand in great need of seminaries of learning, as had been hinted by the gentleman from Maryland, (Mr. CRAIK,) but their ignorance must continue until they were sensible of their want of instruction. He believed there was no Federal quality in knowledge, and no Federal aid was necessary to the spreading of it. Every district of country was competent to provide for the education of its own citizens, and he should not give his countenance to the national plan proposed, because the expense would be enormous, and because he did not think it would be attended with any good effect, but with much evil.
If a University is wanted for the use of that District, or any other part, Mr. N. said he would give it all the encouragement possible, but he could not agree to go to such great lengths--lengths which were not yet explored.
Mr. R. SPRIGG considered the report before them as of a very harmless nature. The PRESIDENT, he said, had appropriated land upon which to erect the University in question. They were not called upon to sanction that appropriation. His power to give it was full and ample. The thing was done, and he had promised a future donation. The apprehensions of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) seemed to arise from his conceiving they were about to sanction a National University, such as had been recommended by the PRESIDENT. If this were the case, although the Representative of that District, he should not give his vote in support of the measure. On the contrary, he said, they were called upon merely to authorize proper persons to receive donations for a University. What sort of institution this should be, would be for the future consideration of Congress. Mr. S. said he should always be ready to give his support to every measure which had a tendency to spread knowledge throughout the United States, as he believed the progress of knowledge and liberty would accompany each other. The gentleman from Virginia seemed to think this institution would only benefit a small circle. He did not think the State of Maryland would be much benefited by it, as they had already two good universities; but he thought it doing no more than justice to the owners of property in the Federal City that this institution should be encouraged. What was asked of them would not commit them at all for any thing further, and it would be a mean of turning the attention of the people to the support of an institution of this kind. For these reasons, he hoped the House would agree to the report.
Mr. LIVINGSTON said he had thought, like the gentleman last up, that there was nothing in it but what was perfectly harmless, until, recurring to the law for establishing the permanent seat of Government, that something more might be intended than the eye could at first discover. Mr. L. said, he turned the thing a variety of ways in his mind, and could not account for some of its obscurities. If nothing was intended but a mere incorporation, why not apply to the State that could incorporate such a body? Something further seemed to be intended: public patronage was wanted to support this institution. They were called upon, at a moment's notice, to give their encouragement to this National Institution. It is true, they were called upon from very respectable authority. They were not called upon to appropriate the public funds to this purpose; but how far the commissioners are justifiable in laying out public lands for that purpose, he knew not. He had not the law itself at hand, but he was doubtful about the just disposal of it, if in this manner. This land was for public use. The use of this land was to erect buildings on for the benefit of Congress; and if these commissioners had power to appropriate it for building a National University on, they had the same power to give it or make use of it for any other purpose. Such institutions are not public, but private concerns.
This, said Mr. L., I view as the effects of the resolution, were it to be adopted; but I would not be thought as in the least reflecting on the motives of the gentleman who brought it forward. I believe it will operate (as a gentleman has justly said) as an "entering-wedge;" and at some future time we shall be told, we must go on--now we have encouraged its institution, we must support it. We shall hear more about it at a future day. Gentlemen tell you, sir, that nothing is intended, but merely to permit its institution. Why cannot they obtain this power which is asked of us of the State where it is wanted? The laws there will permit it, and, most likely, it could be obtained. If this report is agreed to, the time will arrive when this institution will pretend to a just claim on this House for its support; and the reasons they will then urge will have a force which will not be easily repelled.
Mr. MADISON said he was very far from considering, with some gentlemen, that this is a question of right or policy. These ideas are not comprehended in the present question. It is not whether Congress ought to interpose in behalf of this institution or not; it is whether Congress will encourage an establishment which is to be supported entirely independent of them. He did not consider it would ask a single farthing from us, nor that it would pledge Congress to endow the establishment with any support. The State of Virginia thought proper, during the war, to present the PRESIDENT with fifty shares in the Potomac canal, in consideration of his services, which he refused accepting for his own use. He has now offered to give it to this Seminary.[4] Some other individuals have likewise destined part of their land for its support, and other benefactions may be expected. The amount of this motion before the committee is whether we will grant power and security to persons to receive such donations in trust for the institution? He conceived it only in this simple point of view, and he thought if it was worthy of patronage, it ought to be from the United States.
The gentleman from New York (Mr. LIVINGSTON) seems to say it is not necessary for Congress to interpose, as the laws of Maryland allow that Legislature power to do it, and they are the most proper. Congress has the sole jurisdiction over that District: it is not with the power of that Legislature. Their power in that District could only operate by virtue of a grant from the United States; although it is necessary, until that District becomes the permanent seat of Government, the laws of Maryland should be in force there. This being the situation, the commissioners applied to Congress to give them the power to receive benefactions.
Another thing which gentlemen had objected to, is its being called a National University. The report does not call it so; it calls it "A University in the District of Columbia;" which, he thought, was materially different. Congress may form regulations for institutions which may be very good, and yet, not be viewed as national institutions. It was in this qualified light (for he wished not to consider it a burden on the nation) he meant to vote for the report.
Mr. SPRIGGS said it had been inquired why the Legislature of Maryland could not have granted the commissioners what they now pray for? He answered that they could make no law for that District which should extend beyond the time at which the seat of Government was to be removed there. He mentioned some instances that had taken place while he was a member of that Legislature. This, he said, accounted for the application of the commissioners to Congress.
On motion, the committee rose, and had leave to sit again.
TUESDAY, December 27.
DEMPSEY BURGES, from North Carolina, appeared, and took his seat.
National University.
The order of the day was called for on the report of the committee to whom was referred the memorial of the commissioners of the Federal City, and that part of the PRESIDENT's Speech, which referred to the establishment of a National University. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on that subject, when the resolution, reported by the select committee, having been read, no gentleman rising on the subject, the Chairman inquired if the committee were ready for the question, and on being answered in the affirmative, the question was put and negatived by a great majority.
The committee rose, and the Chairman reported their disagreement with the select committee.
The House then took up the subject.
Mr. MURRAY rose, expressing his great surprise at the unexpected decision on the question in the committee. He was very much surprised to see the committee so changed, no opposition, and yet the report so quickly negatived; surely gentlemen must have mistaken the question. It is matter of regret such an important subject should have so little consideration. The language of the report is perfectly moderate and just. The gentleman from Virginia, yesterday, gave us to understand that this institution was to draw its support from the National Treasury; but on examining the report I can find no such idea held out or intended; and also he told us this was a National University. The gentleman's observations are grounded in mistake, or it was effected by an imagination of evils, of which there could not be the most distant apprehension. If we refer to the memorial of the commissioners we shall see they ask no money from Congress; they only ask you to erect a number of gentlemen into a corporate capacity to enable them to receive donations from those who are well disposed towards instituting a useful Seminary in that District; this is no more than they have a right to expect from Congress, and is the duty of Congress to grant. Yet the determination of the Committee of the whole House has been carried against this very desirable and reasonable request. I would again repeat that the language of the memorial is only to enable them to support a seminary of learning in that place, and not a single shilling is asked from the nation. They only want a medium to act upon--an act of incorporation.
The PRESIDENT has generously signified his intention to make a valuable benefaction, not less than £5000 sterling, and the wise and good in all parts of the United States would probably follow his example, particularly in that neighborhood, if Congress would put them in a way to receive it; a building would then be begun and some advances made towards the execution of the institution, in proportion to the fund. Instead of allowing this to be the case, every possible view has been given unfavorable to the plan, and every possible supposition formed, though without grounds, which could tend to blast it. The ideas of gentlemen have been inferred that a large empty house would arise;--that it would draw from the United States funds for its support. It may be possible, but it is no way probable. Is it not more probable that these gentlemen, knowing they cannot expect national support, will keep themselves within the bounds of their funds, if they mean to carry on the institution? Certainly this seems most consistent with the wisdom and prudence of men in that capacity. Nothing is asked of the public in the report of the select committee:--nothing they have a right to ask. I therefore hope, as the request is perfectly reasonable, gentlemen will not be too hasty to oppose such a measure without due consideration.
Mr. CRAIK.--I must confess I feel as much surprised as my colleague on the decision which has just been given in the Committee of the Whole. Some gentlemen who opposed the report yesterday conceived there was some secret poison lurking within it--some dangerous principle not to be discovered on its face, which would some time produce baneful influences--this has been insinuated though not directly said. If so it must come there by accident, or of itself, which those gentlemen must allow if they will give themselves the trouble to examine the true principle of it, and give it a just decision. When we examine the materials of which this report has been formed, viz: the PRESIDENT's communication on this subject in his Speech, and the memorial of the commissioners;--we should be led by those gentlemen to believe, that this, which is the groundwork of the report, is connected to convey something which may extend further than it seems to carry its object; this perhaps is the secret poison hinted at. Were I in the situation of the PRESIDENT, I am free to confess, had I studied my own feelings and the great use of the institution, I should have recommended it. It has been justly said, that the PRESIDENT, from the impulsive importance of it, has taken this opportunity--this last opportunity to recommend it. He has recommended it with earnestness; which gives an additional proof of his sincere regard for the welfare of his country. I hope this will not be conceived in favor of the idea suggested. The commissioners seemed to have anticipated the objections which have been made to a National University, and have purposely avoided inserting it in their memorial. They have cherished similar ideas which I have, of the eligibility of such an institution, but foreseeing that plan would not be approved, they have relinquished that, and only requested incorporation to enable them to act in trust for the institution. They do not call upon this House to put their hand into the Public Treasury; they seem to have possessed somewhat of the prophetic, to see the necessity of forming their memorial so little objectionable; and yet there is supposed to be danger in this simple request.
Gentlemen have supposed a responsibility, a peculiar obligation to support it, would be attached to the United States, were they to give this privilege. As well might it be said that Congress, by allowing a bridge to be built, or a road to be cut, would incur the expense, or if it could not otherwise be done for want of money in the applicants, would be engaged to do it for them at the national expense. If there are objections of force in one instance they will apply to the other. If this is denied it proves that District to be wretched outcasts, being denied a request the most reasonable, natural, and just that can be contemplated. Many of the objections urged, indeed most of them, against the admission of this report, do not go so much to the exclusion of the measure, as to the danger of Legislative interference. Gentlemen say, if we move in it--if we put our hands at all to it, we pledge ourselves to effect it. If this is the situation with the people of Columbia, the year 1800 will be a woful year to them; this is an unhappy presage of the jurisdiction to be exercised on that country. If it is inexpedient for that District to have a Seminary of Learning, let gentlemen who could state it with truth, come forward and say so. If the objections of gentlemen are not grounded on the danger of this House pledging itself to support the institution nor on the inexpediency of such a thing in that District, I am at a loss, for my soul, to conceive on what ground their objections are formed. I was surprised yesterday to hear the opposition come from the quarter it did; and am equally surprised to find such an opposition now. In my view there is a very great want of Seminaries of Learning in that District.
If we take a view on the south side of the Potomac, for a considerable extent of country, there is no institution to answer any desirable purpose. There is the greatest probability of a rapid increase in the population. Is it not reasonable, then, that an institution of this kind should be established in that place? And if reasonable at all, are we to wait till the period arrives when the country is thickly inhabited before we commence a building and project the plan? I have long thought that in this young country such a thing was necessary. It should be now begun, to grow up with its growth and strengthen with its strength. We should now lay the corner-stone--the foundation to build upon. Though such a Seminary cannot be established now, it may fifty years hence; and it can never be too soon to commence a good institution. We are not called upon to travel into the fields of speculation for the purpose of finding funds to support this plan; there are funds which present themselves to view. We only want a grant to secure the benefactions in prospect. The PRESIDENT has employed a handsome benefaction for this purpose; and I much wonder that gentlemen from that part of the Union should oppose measures that would only encourage its reception. When I take a view of the extent of country which lies much in want of a Seminary, I feel surprised that such measures towards its growth should be denied.
If there are any gentlemen here who oppose the advancement and growth of that District which they have taken under their wing, they should come forward and declare it; we then should have ground to account for their conduct. If we are determined to deny these people common justice, we dispirit them. There is no circumstance which can occur that will tend so much to discourage the growth of that State; if we forbear to do them this justice, we exclude them looking up for those common rights which could be enjoyed in any other Territory of the United States. I hope this House will never deny to that people, rising into existence, this small privilege. Is it a strange thing, I would ask gentlemen, for a State to grant charters? I answer, no. And for this State to be denied this privilege only to secure a fund for such an excellent institution, I believe is quite a novel idea. I hope if there are any doubts on this subject, they will lie over for future consideration; and I hope we shall be careful not to damp the attempts of that people by a conduct which could not be refused by any State in the Union; and that Congress should refuse it without assigning a sufficient reason is unprecedented. I hope it will lie over for future consideration, and not be refused so quickly.
It was moved that the subject should lie over until the second Monday in January.
The question for postponement was put and carried--ayes 37, noes 36.
WEDNESDAY, December 28.
Relief to Savannah.
Mr. W. SMITH wished the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the resolution, which he had the other day laid upon the table, proposing to afford some relief to the sufferers by the late fire at Savannah. For his part, he said, he could see no reasonable objection which could be made to so benevolent a proposition. A gentleman in the House had got a plan of the ruins of the city; it was, indeed, a most distressful scene. There had never occurred so calamitous an event of the kind in the United States, or which had so strong a claim upon the General Government for relief. He said they had granted assistance to the sufferers by fire at St. Domingo; and surely if it were justifiable to grant relief to foreigners in distress, it was at least equally so when the objects were our own citizens. If gentlemen had objections to the measure, he wished they would state them. The sum with which he should think of filling up the blank would not be such as to materially affect our finances.
Mr. MILLEDGE said, if the unfortunate had any claim upon the Government for relief, none could have greater than the citizens of Savannah. Few houses, he said, were remaining of that city, and those few were the least valuable. Not a public building, not a place of public worship, or of public justice--all was a wide waste of ruin and desolation, such as scarcely could be conceived, and as it were impossible to describe. He hoped some relief would be afforded to distress so unexampled.
Mr. COOPER said, it was a very unpleasant thing to come forward to oppose a measure of this sort; but, when they looked into different parts of the Union, and saw the losses which had been sustained at New York, Charleston, &c., it would appear only reasonable that, if relief was afforded in one case, it ought to be extended to another; and, if this resolution were agreed to, he should certainly move to have some relief afforded to New York. He hoped, however, the business would not be proceeded with. If the principle were a good one, it would bear going through with; but it would be seen this would, on the contrary, prove a dangerous one. What they did to-day, he said, should bear repeating to-morrow. If they were to make good losses by fire, there would be no occasion for insurance companies, nor any inducement to build with brick in preference to wood. He felt as much as others for the distresses of the people of Savannah, but was of opinion it was not a proper business for the interference of that House.
Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the gentleman last up that this would be considered as a precedent; he agreed that they ought not to do that to-day which ought not to be done to-morrow. It might be brought forward as a principle upon which we should be bound to relieve New York or Charleston; but the question is, whether this is not a distinct case? This is a case awfully distinguishable from all others; and if a case like the present will not be often found, this House are certainly not bound to grant relief in others, though in this. He trusted such a case would not be again found to solicit relief. Charleston, he said, had experienced a great calamity by fire, but had not asked relief of that House; and it was probable if it had it would not have been granted, because its distresses are not so great. In a distressing situation like that now before us aid can be afforded by the many towards alleviating the distresses of the few. Hence arises the advantages from public contributions; and would that House, he asked, refuse their assistance? It would not be felt by the public purse. It has been said, to adopt this resolution would have a dangerous tendency, inasmuch as it would encourage a neglect of insurance. But the evil has come; the unfortunate circumstance has occurred; four-fifths of that unfortunate city has been destroyed, and their distress is great. Such a circumstance may not again happen for a century. The amazing value of £500,000 sterling damages is done; and shall we refuse to give a trifle to assist, with others, towards removing the present distressed situation of some of the unfortunate inhabitants? I trust not. It is not asked of the House to indemnify the loss of these sufferers. No, sir; it is only asked that the General Government should give the trifling sum of fifteen or twenty thousand dollars to afford these people some relief.
The question was then put for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, and lost--yeas 38, nays 39.
It was then moved that the committee be discharged from the further consideration of the subject.
Mr. W. LYMAN hoped the business would not be disposed of without going into a Committee of the Whole. He thought more respect was due to the feelings of the sufferers than to dispose of the subject without discussion. He hoped the committee would not, therefore, be discharged.
Mr. HARTLEY trusted the committee would not be discharged. He believed the destruction of Lisbon by an earthquake did not occasion greater mischiefs than the late fire had done to Savannah. The Legislature of Pennsylvania, which had no greater power than the General Government to afford relief to these sufferers, had given $15,000. Indeed, he thought it more the province of the General Government than of State Governments to afford relief in such cases.
Shall we, said he, treat the citizens of Savannah with more disrespect than the people of St. Domingo? This House then gave $10,000 or more for the relief of those people, and shall we not now have liberty to discuss the subject, whether to give or not to our own citizens? Although, he said, he would not wish to draw a precedent from English transactions, yet he would observe that their generous benevolence to the unfortunate sufferers by the earthquake at Lisbon, though only commercially acquainted was worth imitation, to whom they gave £100,000. Mr. H. was sorry gentlemen should endeavor to prevent this by bringing in the calamities in New York and Charleston. Those were only personal losses; this was a general conflagration, a catastrophe unprecedented; and he hoped, for the sake of humanity and national honor, this House would never withhold relief.
Mr. SPRIGG hoped the committee would not be discharged, but that they would go into the business at an early day. He said, he had not made up his mind how far they had power to afford relief in a case like the present. There was an instance in the relief afforded to the daughters of the Count de Grasse, as well as that given to the sufferers at St. Domingo. He wished for further time to make inquiry on the subject. If there were not insuperable objections to the measure, he hoped relief would be afforded.
Mr. HARPER acknowledged that it was sound policy in Government to keep a strict eye over its Treasury; but this watchfulness ought not to go to the rejection of all claims, however just and proper. He thought the tenaciousness of approaching the Treasury was carried too far in the present instance. He would ask, what was the use of society if it were not to lessen the evils of such calamities as the present, by spreading them over the whole community, instead of suffering them to fall upon the heads of a few individuals? He thought it the duty of Government to alleviate such peculiar distress as the present. It was said this would prove a dangerous precedent, and prevent necessary provisions against fire. If they were about to make good the whole of the £500,000 destroyed, there might be some ground for the alarm; but when fifteen or twenty thousand dollars only were contemplated to be given, no great danger could surely be apprehended. The fires at New York, Baltimore, and Charleston, had been mentioned; but what were the means of Savannah when compared with New York? Not as one to twenty. New York was rich enough to bear her loss, but this could not be said of Savannah, all the inhabitants of which were reduced to poverty and distress. They could not, therefore, get relief from their fellow-citizens; and to whom could they look for protection and relief with so much propriety as to the General Government? When compared to Charleston, the loss of Savannah was of ten times the magnitude as that experienced by it. The loss of Charleston was alleviated by a subscription of $30,000 from its own citizens, besides the handsome contributions which were made in other parts of the Union; but there was no property left in Georgia to afford relief to the sufferers. Suppose, said Mr. H., we were to give thirty thousand dollars towards this loss, what would it be when divided among the whole Union? And yet it would be enough to draw down countless blessings upon us from these objects of distress. He hoped, therefore, the committee would not be discharged. It was a case of peculiar and almost unprecedented affliction, such as he hoped would not again occur; and a decision in their favor would be applauded by every man, woman, and child in the Union.
The question was then taken for going into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, and carried by a considerable majority, there being 45 votes for it.
The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, when
Mr. W. SMITH said, he did not propose to fill up the blank at that time. If the resolution was agreed to, the sum could be put in when the bill came into the House. He himself should not think of proposing to fill the blank with more than 15,000 dollars. This, it was true, was but a small sum, but it would afford relief to the poorer class of sufferers, and others could not expect to receive the amount of their losses. He should move that the committee might rise and report the resolution.
Mr. HARTLEY called for the reading of the act allowing relief to the sufferers by fire at St. Domingo. [It was read. It allowed 15,000 dollars for their relief, which sum was to be charged to the French Republic, and if not allowed in six months, the relief was to be stopped after that time.]
Mr. MACON wished the act allowing a sum of money to the daughters of Count de Grasse to be read also. He did not think either of them in point. The sufferings of the people of Savannah were doubtless very great; no one could help feeling for them. But he wished gentlemen to put their finger upon that part of the constitution which gave that House power to afford them relief. Many other towns had suffered very considerably by fire. He believed he knew one that had suffered more than Savannah in proportion to its size: he alluded to Lexington in Virginia, as every house in the place was burnt. If the United States were to become underwriters to the whole Union, where must the line be drawn when their assistance might be claimed? Was it when three-fourths or four-fifths of a town was destroyed, or what other proportion? Insurance offices were the proper securities against fire. If the Government were to come forward in one instance, it must come forward in all, since every sufferer's claim stood upon the same footing. The sum which had been given to the sufferers at St. Domingo was to be charged to the French Republic, and that given to Count de Grasse's daughters was in consideration of their father's services. But New York had as great right to come forward and expect relief as Savannah. He felt for the sufferers in all these cases, but he felt as tenderly for the constitution; he had examined it, and it did not authorize any such grant. He should, therefore, be very unwilling to act contrary to it.
Mr. RUTHERFORD said, he felt a great deal of force on what gentlemen had said. There were two circumstances which were perfectly conclusive in his mind. He saw it our duty to grant relief from humanity and from policy. Savannah was a city of a minor, helpless State; it was a very young State, yet it was a part of the Union, and as such, was as much entitled to protection as any State under such a direct misfortune; and it became Congress to alleviate their great distress. They have lost much; they have, many of them, lost their all. To say we will not assist to relieve, when almost every State in the Union is putting their shoulders to support these people's burden, is wrong. The State of Pennsylvania has done itself immortal honor in the relief it has afforded, and shall we not help to support this part of the family in their distress? This State is a branch of the great family of the Union; it would be, in my idea, extremely inconsistent to neglect them. He hoped the motion would be adopted, and he hoped it would never be said that the General Government refused to provide help in such a poignant distress occurring in one of its principal towns.
Mr. HARTLEY said, that the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. MACON) had voted against both of the bills which had been referred to. He knew no difference between the Constitution of the United States and that of Pennsylvania, yet a vote in their House had been carried unanimously. He thought the law for the relief of the sufferers of St. Domingo perfectly in point; for, notwithstanding what was said about negotiation, the distress of those people had consumed all the money before the six months were expired. If ever there was a case in which they could grant relief, this was one. The losses at New York and Charleston would bear no comparison with that of Savannah; they were rich and flourishing places, whilst Savannah was a small city of a new State, and the sufferers generally poor. He hoped, therefore, the resolution would be agreed to.
Mr. MOORE said, the laws which had been adduced as precedents were not in point; for the one sum we were to have credit with the French Republic, and the other was in consideration of past services. The distress of the people of Savannah was not an object of legislation; every individual citizen could, if he pleased, show his individual humanity by subscribing to their relief; but it was not constitutional for them to afford relief from the Treasury. If, however, the principle was adopted, it should be general. Every sufferer had an equal claim. Lexington, in Virginia, contained only one hundred houses, and all except two had been destroyed by fire. He should therefore move to add Lexington to Savannah in the resolution before them; though he would observe, as he did not approve of the principle, he should vote against them both.
Mr. VENABLE did not see the difference between the two cases which was so distinguishable to the gentleman last up. Because Savannah was a commercial city, its distress, according to that gentleman, was indescribable, but when a like scene was exhibited in a small town, it was no longer an object which touched his feelings. His humanity went no where but where commerce was to be found. He asked whether the United States might not as well lose revenue in the first instance, as put money into the people's pockets to pay it with? Humanity was the same every where. A person who lost his all in a village, felt the misfortune as heavily as he who had a like loss in a city, and perhaps more so, since the citizen would have a better opportunity by means of commerce of retrieving his loss. He was against the general principle, as he believed, if acted upon, it would bring such claims upon the Treasury as it would not be able to answer.
Mr. MURRAY thought the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. VENABLE) carried his idea of relief too far. He had no idea that that House, or any Legislature, could undertake to make good individual misfortunes. He was of opinion that the lines which separated individual from national cases, were very observable; the one was happening every day, the other seldom occurred. When a large town is burnt down, and that town is an important Southern frontier town, it is surely a national calamity, and has a claim upon the humanity of the country. It was true, the claim was not of such a nature as to be brought into a Court of Justice, but it was a calamity in which the whole nation sympathized. It was not only a claim upon the humanity of the nation, but also upon its policy, as, by restoring it to its former situation, it would be able to bear its wonted part in contributing to the revenue of the country, and would continue to carry population, arts, and wealth to that distant part of the Union. In case of war, Savannah was a most important place. It was necessary the Union should have a town in that situation, and he could not consider any money which might now be advanced as given away, but as lent to that town, which might enable it, in a few years, to resume its former situation, whilst the withholding of it might prevent its ever rising from its present ruins.
Mr. KITCHELL was opposed to the amendment and to the resolution itself. He had doubts if even they were to give the citizens 15,000 dollars, as was proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina, whether they should not, instead of service, be doing them an injury; because, if the General Government were only to give this sum, the State Legislatures would proportion their donations accordingly, and probably give much less than they would otherwise have done, if they had not had this example before them. He had doubts as to the constitutionality of the measure; he thought the constitution did not authorize them to make such use of public money; however, he thought it might be a very flexible instrument; it would bend to every situation, and every situation to that. He thought, in this instance, if we grant money, while we attempt to serve, we shall eventually injure. As to what the gentleman from Virginia says of Lexington, Mr. K. thought it had been fully relieved; however he should vote against both propositions.
Mr. PAGE said, that he was sorry that his colleague had made this amendment, as he had done it with a view to defeat the original resolution. If humanity alone were to direct his vote upon this question, and if the amendment had been proposed more early and singly, he might have voted for it. But that not being the case, it, as well as motives of general policy, influenced him in favor of the original motion. He had reasons which could not apply to the amendment. He should vote against it. He was bound by order to confine himself to the single question before the committee. This is, Shall the amendment be received or not? He declared it as his opinion that the case of Lexington ought not to be connected with that of Savannah, which had been, as stated by the member from South Carolina, materially different. He was restrained by order from entering into the merits of the original resolution, but he thought that he had a right to hint at the motive of policy which would apply to the resolution, and not to the amendment. This was, that Savannah being an important place, it would be wise and politic to prevent its revival from being owing to any other aid than that of the General Government of the United States. It ought not to be under obligations to individuals, or single States, and much less to a foreign power.
Mr. HARTLEY hoped the amendment would not prevail. If the loss of the people at Lexington had been greater than they could support, they would doubtless have applied to the Legislature of Virginia, but he had not heard of any such application having been made. He agreed with the gentleman last up, that the General Government ought to relieve distresses of this kind.
Mr. MURRAY inquired when the fire happened at Lexington?
Mr. MOORE answered, about nine months ago. He thought it was the duty of the United States first to pay the claims which were made upon them by distressed soldiers and others for past services, who were denied justice because they had passed an act of limitation. If they were to act from generosity, he said that generosity ought to be extended universally. It was a new doctrine that because a sufferer by fire did not live in a commercial city he was not equally entitled to relief with the inhabitants of a city, and that though such persons were called upon to contribute to the losses of others, they could have no redress for their own. This seemed as if favorite spots were to be selected upon which special favor was to be shown. He was opposed to all such humanity.
Mr. CLAIBORNE was against the amendment, but he hoped the resolution would be agreed to. He was sorry any gentleman should propose an amendment like this, purposely to defeat a motion which would tend to relieve such sufferers as those of Georgia must be. He was not certain whether he could vote upon constitutional grounds or not. It was a sharp conflict between humanity to that suffering country and the constitution. If any case could be admissible, he thought this could; it ought to be remembered, that that part of the Union has suffered much. Georgia was a slaughter-pen during the war, besides being continually harassed by the hostile Indians. He thought 15,000 dollars would not be ill-spent, as from motives of policy it would be of more advantage to the United States from the quick return the revenue would gain. Indeed, if constitutional, he hoped the sum would be made more than proposed. These are your fellow-citizens who are suffering, and if not speedily relieved, the whole interest will be involved. If in order, he would vote that the committee rise, to enable him and, perhaps, many others, to consult whether relief could be constitutionally granted? He said he felt a great propensity to do it.
The question was put on the amendment and negatived--there being only 26 in favor of it.
Mr. BALDWIN said, he had doubted whether to make any observations on this motion; not that he was insensible to the calamitous situation which had been the cause of it, but from an apprehension that it might be thought he was too strongly affected by it. Though it might be disagreeable to one to give his judgment and urge his opinions, when his own relation to the question was different from that of others, yet some of the reflections might not be useless to those who were to determine it. He was sure it was not a want of disposition to relieve the unhappy sufferers that had or would draw forth an observation on this occasion, but merely doubts as to the powers of the Federal Government in money matters. The use of a written constitution, and of that provision in it which declared that no money should be drawn from the Treasury but under appropriations made by law, was very manifest from the caution which it gave in the expenditure of public money and in laying burdens on the people; yet he believed it impossible to obtain absolute directions from it in every case. The objection is, that Congress is empowered to raise money only to pay the debts and to provide for the common defence, and the other purposes, exactly as specified in the 8th section. The objection has often been made, but many laws have passed not exactly specified in that section. He mentioned the private acts before alluded to, the law for establishing light-houses, to aid navigation in the improvement of harbors, beacons, buoys, and public piers, establishing trading-houses with the Indians, and some others, to show that though the constitution was very useful in giving general directions, yet it was not capable of being administered under so rigorous and mechanical a construction as had been sometimes contended for.
Mr. GILES said, if the present resolution passed it would make them answerable for all future losses by fire. The small sum of $15,000 was not of any consequence when compared with the establishment of a principle of that House acting upon generosity. He believed that neither the money nor humanity, but the establishment of the principle, was the thing aimed at. The unanimity with which a resolution had passed the Pennsylvania Legislature, was a proof that they believed they had the power to pass such a law. It was said the General Government possessed the authority. The gentleman from Georgia had said that "affairs of men" made it necessary to depart from the strict constitutional power. For his part, he did not think they ought to attend to what "the affairs of men" or what generosity and humanity required, but what the constitution and their duty required.
The authority of that House, he said, was specified, beyond which they ought not to go. This was a principle not within the constitution, but opposed to it.
There had, he said, been several cases introduced. That of the sufferers of St. Domingo was not a case in point. They looked for a reimbursement of the money. He believed it had been repaid. And when the daughters of the Count de Grasse had $4,000 given them, it was thought to be necessary to introduce their father's services as a consideration. His feelings, he said, were not less alive to the calls of humanity than those of other gentlemen; but, by granting the money required, they should go beyond their powers, and do more real injury than good.
Mr. CLAIBORNE said, the more he heard, the more he found himself in favor of the resolution. By the discussion it had undergone, he was inclined to think it was, perhaps, reconcilable with the constitution; perhaps it was, he said, for he was not certain. The annual revenue, he said, of that place, was seventy thousand dollars to the United States, besides the great consideration of it as a frontier town. He had compared the advantages and disadvantages with respect to its relief in his own mind, and thought it would be highly consistent with policy to grant relief. It was a place which had been in great distress, and had great struggles with enemies in times past. Can it be possible to suppose that we have not power to assist in erecting that place again, and putting it upon a footing to do good to the United States by a return of her revenue? Certainly not. Would the committee be willing that Savannah should be erased from the revenue? Are they willing to let it rest, and lose it? This is impossible. Then, surely, it becomes policy to give aid towards its re-erection. Unless the people do receive some aid, it will be a long time before seventy thousand dollars will be again produced from the revenue of that place.
The committee then rose and reported their disagreement, when the House took it up.
The question was then taken, and the yeas and nays demanded, "that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in their disagreement to the motion," and resolved in the affirmative--yeas 55, nays 24, as follows:
YEAS.--Theodorus Bailey, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, John Clopton, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, James Davenport, George Dent, Abiel Foster, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Ezekiel Gilbert, William B. Giles, James Gillespie, Nicholas Gilman, Chauncey Goodrich, Christopher Greenup, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Aaron Kitchell, John Wilkes Kittera, Edward Livingston, Samuel Lyman, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Josiah Parker, Francis Preston, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Nathaniel Smith, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William Strudwick, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, Richard Thomas, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.
NAYS.--Abraham Baldwin, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, William Craik, George Ege, Dwight Foster, Henry Glenn, Andrew Gregg, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, William Hindman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John Page, Elisha R. Potter, John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Isaac Smith, and William Smith.
THURSDAY, December 29.
GEORGE HANCOCK, from Virginia, appeared, and took his seat.
Canadian Refugees.
Mr. WILLIAMS moved for the order of the day, that the House resolve itself into a committee on the reports of committees to whom were referred the petitions of sundry refugees from Canada and Nova Scotia.
The first resolution read from the last report of the select committee on this subject, was in these words:
"Resolved, That the prayer of the Petitioners, Joseph Green and others, from Canada, praying a bounty in lands and other pay, for services rendered in the late war with Great Britain, ought not to be granted."
This resolution was agreed to. The second was thus:
"Resolved, That a tract of land, not exceeding ---- acres, be laid off north-west of the Ohio River, beginning at the mouth of the Great Miami, and extending down the Ohio, not exceeding three times the breadth in length, be immediately appropriated to compensate the refugees from the British provinces of Canada and Nova Scotia, pursuant to the resolves of Congress of the 23d of April, 1783, and the 13th April, 1785."
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped the situation of the land would not be mentioned in the resolution; there were many circumstances that would render it unnecessary and improper.
Mr. HARTLEY wished to know where the land was to be, because the value of the land in different places was various; he thought they ought to have land: he would not be thought to object to the resolution.
Mr. VENABLE did not think it necessary to mention at this time what land should be appropriated for this purpose. A bill would be introduced in a few days, it could then be determined. If there were objections to appropriate the land mentioned, he hoped gentlemen would then propose a spot that would suit every conveniency better. These people, he said, ought to be satisfied: it was time they were.
Mr. DAYTON said, that the Chairman of the committee said there was no land near Lake Erie of that description belonging to the United States; he wished to know what foundation the assertion had?
Mr. GREENUP said, the committee had made what inquiry they could on the subject, of persons well informed, who told them there was no land belonging to the United States of that description.
Mr. SITGREAVES would vote for striking out the clause as it stood, not from any knowledge he had on the justice of the claims, but, if just, satisfaction should be given. The committee had not reported as to the value of land necessary to be given; the value of land was proportioned to its different qualities and location; he thought it would be as well for these people, to give them military land warrants, and let them locate by lot: this had heretofore been the method, and he thought it would be as advantageous to them as any, and avoid many difficulties with respect to the grant.
Mr. MACON hoped the question would be divided; he liked the proposition of the gentleman last up, to strike out, and insert the words proposed; he therefore would wish the committee to rise, and report progress; or, if the House do not adopt the substitute, he hoped it would be recommitted.
Mr. DAYTON moved to strike out the words relative to location, and substitute the following resolution:
"Resolved, That provision ought to be made by law for granting donations of land to Canadian and Nova Scotia refugees, in conformity to the resolves of Congress of the 23d of April, 1783, and the 13th of April, 1785."
This resolution was adopted.
The third was--
"Resolved, That five hundred acres of land be granted to each refugee from Canada and Nova Scotia."
This resolution was attended with three explanatory restrictions. It passed, and the Chairman read the first of these rules, which was, "that the applicant shall make proof, before some Court of record, of his actual residence in one of the provinces aforesaid, previous to the ---- day of ----."
Mr. GREENUP supposed this was meant merely as the outlines of a plan to be completed when the bill was brought in; at this time it was necessary that instruction should be given to the committee that they may bring in a bill consistent with the will of the House.
Mr. DAYTON objected to this, and the two following clauses. He objected also to the resolution for an indiscriminate grant of five hundred acres of land to each refugee. Some of these people would be found to deserve more and some less, in proportion to their exertion and sufferings. Some might have lost large property, or have had large families. If Mr. DAYTON had observed what the committee were doing, he would have objected to the passing of that clause. He likewise opposed the present one. This clause and the remaining two were negatived.
The Committee of the Whole then rose. The Chairman reported progress. The House took up the report. The first resolution and the second, as altered in the committee, were agreed to.
The question on the third resolution was then put.
Mr. MACON thought that it would be exceedingly improper to grant an equal quantity to each; it ought to be entirely circumstantial.
Mr. GREENUP was of the same opinion; he said some of these people had suffered more than others. The circumstances of some were such that they were in irons, in close confinement twelve or fourteen months, many of them had the warrant signed for their execution, and a variety of cruelties were exercised: these distresses required consideration.
Mr. BALDWIN hoped it would be struck out; the House should not go into particulars of the quantity to be given, or the circumstances of the persons; he had seen great difficulty attending these specifications. He did not like this loose way of doing business; they need not open land offices for that purpose; some way would be found out to give the people satisfaction.
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped the committee would not be restricted.
The question on the third resolution was then put, and lost.
A committee was then appointed of Messrs. GILMAN, WILLIAMS, and GREENUP, with instructions to bring in a bill pursuant to the resolutions as amended.
Kidnapping Negroes.
Mr. SWANWICK called the order of the day on a report of the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures, made the last session, on a memorial from the State of Delaware, respecting the kidnapping of negroes and mulattoes. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject.
Mr. SWANWICK said, that there was a mischievous practice in use of carrying these people away from the place of their residence, by masters of vessels, and selling them in other parts. The plan of the committee was to get instructions from the House to bring in a bill making it necessary for every master of a vessel to have a certificate of the number and situation of any negroes or mulattoes he may have on board. He hoped the measure would not at all be opposed, as it only prevented thefts in this case.
Mr. COIT wished to know whether it was necessary for the United States to intermeddle with this? He wished the report had been more satisfactory, and stated the principles upon which it was formed with more precision. The evil, he doubted not, existed, but the law might create a greater evil than that it was intended to cure. It appeared to him that the laws in the several States were fully adequate to the subject without further provision; he was not ready to give a vote on it either way at present.
Mr. SWANWICK said, the report was grounded on an application from the Legislature of Delaware. [Mr. S. here read the memorial from that State to Congress.] The practice, he said, was very injurious and dangerous to that State, and he hoped a remedy would be attempted, as it was in the power of Congress to provide one by this method; some of the States had made an attempt to remedy this evil, but their laws were broken with impunity. If the resolution of the committee passed, he should move that the committee bring in a bill in pursuance thereto.
Mr. SWANWICK said, the laws of the different States forbade the stealing of negroes; but they had no remedy that would take effect out of their own State: and although each had effect in their own State, yet they had no power on the water. The intention of the present measure was to oblige masters of vessels, when they cleared out of any ports in the Delaware, when they took any negro or mulatto on board, to have a certificate of their being free. The situation of the State of Delaware, communicating with both the Delaware and Chesapeake, was, in this respect, particularly exposed to insult and injury; but this remedy, he thought, would be effectual. The gentleman last up wished the committee to rise, in order to recommit it: he should vote for it if the gentleman was willing to add, "to bring in a bill." The gentleman was in the committee, if he had stated his objections there, it might have saved time.
Mr. MURRAY wished to know what was fully meant by the idea of preventing kidnapping. He confessed he did not rightly understand the meaning of the word. Was the intention of the committee to have reference to the taking of free negroes and selling them as slaves, or the taking slaves to make them free?
Mr. SWANWICK said it was intended to prevent both evils. It was intended to prevent their being stolen from their masters; and, also, to prevent the power of the master taking them to the other States to sell them. This measure, he thought, would prevent both. The State of Maryland had taken measures to prevent it themselves; they had made it a heavy penalty to take a negro out of the State; but that is not effectual to prevent the evil now complained of. This was meant to prevent the practice of examining ships before they sailed and when they arrived.
Mr. W. SMITH wished the committee to rise; not with a view of recommitting the report, but to get rid of the business altogether. The subject, he said, involved many serious questions; it required very serious consideration, and he wished it had never come up. It was a question with him how far Congress had a right to meddle with it at all. He felt alarmed on the subject as brought from that State. He considered it as a kind of entering-wedge, as a gentleman had lately said, on another occasion. It was altogether a municipal regulation, and not at all connected with trade or commerce, and therefore ought to be left to the State Legislatures to settle. He did not think the constitution allowed that House to act in it.
Gentlemen had said, that the laws of the States took no effect on the waters. This, he thought, was founded on a mistake. The laws of the States could prevent robbery on water as well as on land, if within the jurisdiction of the United States. He hoped the committee would rise, and dismiss the subject.
Mr. ISAAC SMITH thought the gentleman knew not the proper meaning of the report. It was not to make a law against stealing merely, but against its being done successfully; many instances, he said, had occurred, where they had been hid many days on board the ships and taken away in the night to the West Indies, and other parts of the world to sell them. It was impossible that the existing laws of the States should prevent this fraudulent practice: the intent of this law was to prevent this practice; by being examined, and forced to take certificates along with them, it could not be easily done. The particulars of the remedy would be more readily seen when the bill was brought in; it would explain itself; it then might be modified, altered, or rejected altogether. He thought it could give no offence or cause of alarm to any gentleman; and he was sure it was no way contrary to the constitution.
Mr. MACON wished the committee to rise, and not have leave to sit again. He began to see more of the impropriety of the measure than before, and for the same reasons as the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. SMITH.)
Mr. SWANWICK said, this House had ascertained a certain proof, by which our seamen are known, by giving them a certificate of their citizenship, specifying their person and freedom, which had operated against impressment: and was it not equally necessary, and would it not be equally competent, to protect a man from injuries to which his color has exposed him? Our unfortunate negroes and mulattoes are exposed by their color to much insult. In some places, he said, they were so exposed, that color alone was evidence of slavery. He would not enter into the question, whether all ought to be free, because it was not immediately before the House; but if these people were black or white, if free, they ought to be protected in the enjoyment of their freedom, not only by State Legislatures but by the General Government.
Mr. MURRAY did not expect to have raised the sensibility of the gentleman last up. It really arose from his ignorance, he said. He wished to know the origin of the matter; he did not know whether it had originated in a memorial, or whether it came from the humanity of some patriotic member, unsolicited. Great and manifold evils did exist in this point; he meant to make a motion on the subject, as Maryland felt heavily from the practice. He confessed he was not sufficiently acquainted with the English language to know the proper meaning of the word kidnapping; he therefore wished to know if it extended to the object he had in view. He declared he did not wish to encourage the harboring of negroes; far from it; he wished to prevent it. He did not think the law extended far enough on that point; at present, negroes, through the influence of their own minds, or the insinuations of others, or both, frequently leave their masters, and are harbored by other persons. The law takes no notice of this, except it can be proved that the negro is some person's property, and has absconded: this is very difficult to prove; therefore great evils attend its lenity. 'Tis true, if it can be proved that the negro has absconded and was harbored, there was a very heavy penalty inflicted; but, he said, this was difficult to prove. This, he owned, was his insinuation, as the gentleman termed it; and upon this subject he meant to claim the attention of the House. This evil, he said, might arise from the false philosophy and misplaced philanthropy of the advocates of emancipation. He was ever willing to give the question a fair trial, and thought himself bound to thank the gentleman for his extreme benevolence in advocating it.
Mr. SWANWICK, to satisfy the gentleman from Maryland, told him, that the subject came before the House from the State of Delaware.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he did not know how far the committee should go, he should not vote for the matter to go into the committee. He said, it was that kind of business which, by the constitution, was to be left to the different States, he could not agree to the subject going any further. The observations of the gentleman from Pennsylvania had convinced him that that House ought not to interfere with the individual States on the subject; the interests and policy of the different States were so various, that it would be a dangerous thing to meddle with. He thought it an improper question for discussion; he conceived it would be sound policy not to touch it in that House. The gentleman had gone too far to make use of the word emancipation. He feared lest the use of it should spread an alarm through some of the States. It might imperceptibly lead from step to step till it ends in mischief.
Mr. NICHOLAS hoped the business would not be dismissed. We, said Mr. N., who reside in the Southern States, are unfortunately possessed of such a kind of property as has a considerable odium attached to it; but, if we unfortunately hold slaves, we ought not to contribute to the making slaves of free men, but I would wish to establish them in their freedom. If we can give relief as the thing exists, let it be; by all means do it, whether it incur the pleasure or displeasure of some of the slaveholders. He hoped the subject would have full investigation.
The question was then put for the committee to rise. Fifty-four members rising in the affirmative, it was carried.
Mr. SITGREAVES then moved for the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from the further consideration of the report; this, he said, was in order to make way for another motion to refer it back to the committee, to report by bill or otherwise.
The question was put, and the committee discharged.
Mr. SWANWICK moved that the business be recommitted to the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures, to report by bill or otherwise.
Mr. COIT wished the subject to be postponed for further consideration before it was sent to the committee. He had doubts as to the propriety of sending it at all. He thought it had not had that discussion a subject so important required.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he believed this was the first time it was considered in the House. It had been tried in a committee but never taken up by the House, and now gentlemen wished to send it back to the committee, with instructions to bring in a bill. The Committee of Commerce and Manufactures was considerably deranged since last session, when this business came before them; many new members were added, and it required more information before it could come to the conclusion prescribed.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, if any one good purpose could be derived to the House or to the gentlemen, he would not oppose it; but he was at a loss to know what good object could be attained by a delay. With respect to what had been said by the gentleman, (Mr. SMITH,) that the committee were forced to bring in a bill, he was surprised that such an idea should be formed. If that committee report a bill, this House is not even pledged to pass it. When the subject is sent to the committee with that instruction, can it be conceived that committee is forced to report a bill? There is no such thing intended nor included in the words, as either this House should be pledged to pass a bill, or that the committee should report one. The object is, that the House, through the medium of the committee, should have a plan prepared for their consideration, and the word "otherwise" leaves the committee to exercise its own discretion as to the report.
The gentleman from Connecticut, with a prudence and consistency highly becoming, wishes time to think on the subject. But how is that gentleman to have foundation for his reflections until a bill is drawn? Mr. S. did not know what were the resources of that gentleman's mind, but for himself, he must own that in all the attitudes in which this subject had presented itself, he could not distinctly see the plan. One gentleman had said there was no remedy the United States could apply but what was incompatible with the laws of the individual States. Mr. S. presumed that until he saw the mode to be adopted, he could not say whether it was easy or difficult. On the whole, he thought to postpone the subject could answer no good end, while it might delay the object, and do injury.
Mr. COIT said, very probably the resources of his mind may not be equal to that gentleman's, he therefore wished the subject to be delayed that he might have time to get into the knowledge of the business.
Mr. COIT'S motion for postponement was then put and carried--yeas 46, nays 30.
Hugh Lawson White.
Mr. BLOUNT then called for the order of the day on the report of the Secretary of War on the petition of Hugh Lawson White, a soldier under General Sevier, against the Indians. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole.
The following report from the Committee of Claims was then read:
That the claim set forth in the said petition, is intended to establish a principle that will apply to the whole of the militia which were called out under Brigadier General Sevier, in 1793, to act offensively against certain Indians south-west of the Ohio.
That the expedition against these Indians, as appears from the muster-rolls, comprehended a period of above five months, or from the 22d July to 31st December, 1793.
That it was undertaken without authority derived from the President, under the laws of the United States, and for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country.
That the tenor of the instructions from the Department of War to the Governor of the South-western Territory forbade offensive operations.
Having given these facts, it may be proper to add, that it appears, by a recurrence to official papers, that the Indians had greatly perplexed and harassed by thefts and murders, the frontier inhabitants of Tennessee; and previous to the service, for which compensation is demanded, had shown themselves in considerable force, and killed at two stations (one of them within seven miles of Knoxville) fifteen persons, including women and children: that it must rest with Congress to judge how far these aggressions of Indians, and such other circumstances as can be adduced to the parties, constitute a case of imminent danger, or the expedition a just and necessary measure.
Mr. A. JACKSON[5] said, by a recurrence to the papers just read, he doubted not it would appear evident, that the measures pursued on the occasion alluded to were both just and necessary. When it was seen that war was waged upon the State, that the knife and the tomahawk were held over the heads of women and children, that peaceable citizens were murdered, it was time to make resistance. Some of the assertions of the Secretary at War, he said, were not founded in fact; particularly with respect to the expedition being undertaken for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country; indeed they were contradicted by a reference to General Smith's letter to the Secretary of War. He trusted it would not be presuming too much, when he said, from being an inhabitant of the country, he had some knowledge of this business. From June to the end of October, he said, the militia acted entirely on the defensive, when twelve hundred Indians came upon them and carried their station, and threatened to carry the seat of Government. In such a state, said Mr. J., would the Secretary (upon whom the Executive power rested, in the absence of the Governor) have been justified, had he not adopted the measure he did of pursuing the enemy? He believed he would not; that the expedition was just and necessary, and that, therefore, the claim of Mr. White ought to be granted.
He therefore proposed a resolution to the following effect:
"Resolved, That General Sevier's expedition into the Cherokee Nation, in the year 1793, was a just and necessary measure, and that provision ought to be made by law for paying the expenses thereof."
Mr. HARPER said, this appeared to be a subject of considerable importance; he hoped the resolution would, for the present, lie on the table. He therefore moved that the committee rise and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. COIT said, the report wanted some more preparation before it should have come before the House; he would therefore move that it be referred to the Committee of Claims; he knew of no reason against this reference, as many reports from Heads of Departments had been so referred.
Mr. BLOUNT hoped the motion would not prevail. The expedient of referring it to the Secretary at War was resorted to, when it first came before the House. He hoped now it would not be deferred, but decided on. He thought the Committee of Claims, from having once had it before the House, knew as much of the case as they could know, and perhaps all was included in this report.
Mr. D. FOSTER made the same observations in effect as Mr. BLOUNT.
Mr. COIT said, gentlemen had not given a shadow of a reason why it should not be referred to that committee.
Mr. JACKSON owned he was not very well acquainted with the rules of the House, but from the best idea he could form, it was a very circuitous way of doing business. Why now refer it to the Committee of Claims, when all the facts are stated in this report, he knew not. If this was the usual mode of doing business, he hoped it would not be referred.
Mr. W. LYMAN thought, the time it was under consideration before, when referred to the Secretary at War, was the time to have thought of referring it to that committee; but now it was too late; now the House had a report before it. It appeared to him a mere formality. It looks like throwing the business out. He had not made up his mind which way he should vote, but he thought one report was sufficient; he, therefore, hoped it would come under consideration.
Mr. BLOUNT said, when he first presented the petition, he moved it to be referred to the Committee of Claims; it was then rejected, and sent to the Secretary at War.
The Committee rose, and obtained leave to sit again.
FRIDAY, December 30.
The Chickasaw Claims.
ALEXANDER D. ORR, from Kentucky, appeared, and took his seat.
Mr. ANDREW JACKSON presented a petition of George Colbert, one of the chiefs and warriors of the Chickasaw nation of Indians, complaining of a non-performance of stipulations entered into in certain talks held with Governor Blount and other agents of the United States, in which they agreed in defensive support of each other's rights; that their nation was invaded by the red people, (the Creeks,) when they applied, according to treaty, for aid; that their brother, James Robertson, said he had no orders to send them any assistance; and that he must first have orders from their father the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. However, a detachment of volunteers under the command of Colonel Mansker, came to their aid. He asked compensation for supplies furnished to that detachment during sixty days. He said he had applied to his beloved friend the Secretary at War, who told him that Congress had set apart no money out of which it could be paid; he, therefore, applied to Congress for relief.
This petition was referred to the Committee of Claims.
Hugh Lawson White.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the petition of Hugh Lawson White.
The resolution of Mr. ANDREW JACKSON having been read,
Mr. COIT called for the reading of the petition upon which the report was founded. It was read.
Mr. A. JACKSON said, the rations found for the troops on this expedition had already been paid for by the Secretary of War, and he could see no reasonable objection to the payment of the whole expense attending the expedition. As the troops were called out by a superior officer, they had no right to doubt his authority. Were a contrary doctrine admitted, it would strike at the very root of subordination. It would be saying to soldiers, "Before you obey the command of your superior officer, you have a right to inquire into the legality of the service upon which you are about to be employed, and, until you are satisfied, you may refuse to take the field." This, he believed, was a principle which could not be acted upon. General Sevier, Mr. J. said, was bound to obey the orders he received to undertake the expedition. The officers under him were also obliged to obey him. They went with full confidence that the United States would pay them, believing that they had appointed such officers as would not call them into the field without proper authority. If even the expedition had been unconstitutional (which he was far from believing), it ought not to affect the soldier, since he had no choice in the business, being obliged to obey his superior. Indeed, as the provisions had been paid for, and as the ration and pay-rolls were always considered a check upon each other, he hoped no objection would be made to the resolution which he had moved.
Mr. COIT said, he had called for the reading of the petition, because he could not see the connection between it and the resolution under consideration. The petition prayed for recompense for the services of the petitioner, and the men under his command, and the proper resolution would be that the prayer of it ought or might not be granted; but, instead of this, the resolution before them went to the whole troops employed in General Sevier's expedition.
Mr. A. JACKSON said, by referring to the report it would be seen that the Secretary of War had stated, that to allow the prayer of this petition, would be to establish a principle that would apply to the whole of the militia in that expedition. If this petitioner's claim was a just one therefore, the present decision ought to go to the whole, as it was unnecessary for every soldier employed in that expedition, to apply personally to that House for compensation.
Mr. RUTHERFORD observed, that the gentleman from Tennessee had set the matter in so fair a light that it was not necessary to say much more on the subject; but, as he had been acquainted with the frontier from his infancy, he would just give it as his opinion, that the expedition was a necessary one, and that the expense ought immediately to be paid. He hoped, therefore, the resolution would be agreed to unanimously.
Mr. HARPER was not prepared to say, without more information than he had on the subject, that the measure was just and necessary, or the contrary. He felt disposed to think favorably of the expedition; but he thought the House should have further information before it came to any resolution on the subject. They had, it was true, a letter from General Smith, the then Secretary, but he thought this was not sufficient. He thought it would be better to refer the report and other papers to a select committee, with instructions to inquire into the necessity and propriety of the expedition, and report thereon. He hoped, therefore, the present resolution would be disagreed to, and the committee would rise. He would then bring forward a resolution to that effect. The Secretary of War, he said, had not gone fully into the subject; he had given them copies of two letters, but not his opinion. He did not think that an expedition of so important a nature, and which must involve in it a very heavy expense, should be decided upon without further information.
Mr. CRAIK agreed in sentiment with the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HARPER.) He said there was great difficulty in forming an opinion from the report itself; though the Secretary of War seemed to think the calling out of the Militia necessary, there were other expressions in the report which appeared to convey a contrary sentiment. He referred to the letter of General Smith, but mentioned that there were other papers. He could not say the expedition was not necessary; but he thought further information was desirable, and the report should be committed to a select committee, for the purpose of gaining that information.
Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the two gentlemen last up, that further information was necessary. The question, he said, involved a number of important points. In the first place, a question was involved, whether, if the expeditions was necessary, as it was not authorized by law, the expense ought to be defrayed by the United States? By the report of the Secretary of War, it had appeared that Congress were well apprised of all the circumstances which rendered the expedition necessary, yet they did not think proper to authorize it. In the letter of the Secretary of War to Governor Blount, on the subject, was this passage:
"If those difficulties existed while the Congress were in session, and which, it was conceived, they alone were competent to remove, they recur, in the present case, with still greater force; for all the information received at the time Congress were in session, was laid before both Houses, but no order was taken thereon, nor any authority given to the President of the United States; of consequence his authority remains in the same situation it did on the commencement of the last session. It is, indeed, a serious question to plunge the nation into a war with the Southern tribes of Indians, supported as it is said they would be."
Mr. S. also read from the report "that the expedition was undertaken without authority," &c. The Secretary afterwards, indeed, stated, in his report, the disagreeable situation of the country at the time, by way of palliative; but, as Congress were possessed of these facts, and did not authorize offensive operations, it became a nice point to determine whether the expedition in question was justifiable. He would not say that such a situation of things might not occur as would justify a measure of the kind, but it was of consequence to determine whether this was such a case, which could not be done hastily. Neither had the House any information of the magnitude of the expense, whether it would be two or three hundred thousand or half a million of dollars. He should, therefore, hope the Committee of the Whole would be discharged, and that the subject would be committed to a select committee.
Mr. MADISON saw no necessity for referring this subject to a select committee. If it was suggested that the official information which was before them was inaccurate, and that a more full explanation of the situation of things was necessary, there would be some ground of reference; but he did not find that this was the case. The Secretary of War stated facts, and referred to documents to prove "that the Indians had greatly perplexed and harassed, by thefts and murders, the frontier inhabitants of Tennessee, had shown themselves in considerable force, and killed at two stations fifteen persons." If this was a state of facts, and it could not be doubted, the words of the constitution on the subject were clear: "No State shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty on tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay."[6] There could be no doubt, therefore, Mr. M. said, but this expedition came within the meaning of the constitution. In many cases, he said, it was difficult to determine betwixt offensive and defensive operations, as it was sometimes necessary, when acting on the defensive, to use an offensive measure. He had no doubt on the subject, and thought the expense of the expedition should, by all means, be paid.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, that he was not prepared to adopt the resolution which was moved by the member from Tennessee, nor even to decide finally upon it, unless he could be persuaded that the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) was correct in saying that the report before them contained all the information which it was possible for them to obtain. He was convinced that there were other official papers and documents which would throw additional light upon the subject, and therefore, ought to be in possession of the Committee of the Whole before they took any decisive step. He alluded to the confidential communications from the PRESIDENT, in December, 1792, which gave rise to lengthy discussion, with closed galleries, upon the measures that ought to be adopted in consequence of the hostile acts and threats of those very south-western Indians, who were the objects of the expedition for which they were called upon to pay. The House of Representatives then decided that they would neither declare war against those nations of Indians, nor authorize the PRESIDENT to carry an offensive expedition into their country, if, in the recess of Congress, he should deem it proper, in consequence of their continuance in hostility. As the acts of Congress upon this very application would operate in future as a precedent and kind of commentary on that part of the constitution which limited the instances in which a State might levy troops and act offensively, without the previous assent of the General Government, they could not, Mr. D. said, be too particular in their investigation, nor too strict in their reference to dates and facts. He hoped that the Committee of the Whole, would be discharged, and the report of the Secretary of War referred to a select committee, whose duty it would be to report those facts, with their dates, which gave rise to the claim in question, and which justified, under the provision in the constitution, the raising of troops and carrying on an offensive war, without the previous consent of Congress or approbation of the PRESIDENT.
Mr. NICHOLAS believed, on a reference to dates, it would be seen that these attacks of the Indians were subsequent to those which were in the knowledge of Congress at the time mentioned, as they took place while Governor Blount was at Philadelphia; and he thought no further information was necessary on the subject than the letter from General Smith to the Secretary of War, printed with the report, to prove that the expedition was both just and necessary. General Sevier's going into the Cherokee country was no proof that his operations were offensive. If other information could be obtained by referring the business to a select committee, he should have no objection; but he believed this would not be the case. He wished the letter of General Smith to be read. [It was read accordingly.]
Mr. BALDWIN was not able to recollect how great a portion of the members present were in the House when this business was brought before Congress in the year 1792. His own recollection was fresh upon the subject. It was a period when they were much alarmed for our Indian frontier, North and South. The North was fortified, and it was recommended to have a legion on the South. The gentleman from South Carolina, he recollected, was opposed to the measure, and thought the Executive had determined too soon upon hostility. Mr. B. said he had at that time frequent conversations with the then Secretary of War, who informed him that he had written to the Governor of Tennessee that, in case the pressure of the Indians was so great as to require it, he must call out the militia. The Governor was well known, and sufficient confidence was placed in him that this power would not be abused. He believed the troops on the Northern frontier had not proved sufficient, and that they had already paid the expense of troops which were called in to their assistance. At this period, Mr. B. said, the danger which threatened the country was great, and it was happy for us it had been so well got over. He believed it was well that the legion for the Southern frontier was not equipped, though he at that time thought it necessary. The expense of the expedition in question, he said, would be nothing compared with that which would have taken place had the legion contemplated been equipped. Mr. B. said, he had no doubt with respect to the propriety of paying the expense of this expedition. He did not think the number of men was great, or that the charge would be very heavy.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, he was inclined to believe the attacks of the Indians, which provoked the expedition of General Sevier, were subsequent to those in the knowledge of Congress at the time the subject was under discussion.
He was one of those, he said, who thought that the hostile dispositions shown by those Indians at that time called for force, and he had introduced a resolution, by means of his colleague, to that effect. It was not, therefore, that he did not think the expedition authorized, but because he had a desire to have the facts relative to the subject clearly stated, that he wished the business to be committed to a select committee.
Mr. RUTHERFORD said, they were not particular about the manner of doing the business, provided it was done. He was confident the expense of the expedition ought to be paid. When the Indians were upon them, what could the Governor do? Was he to send forward to the seat of Government to be instructed what to do? No; resistance was necessary, and it was not becoming in them now to say, "You did not act perfectly regular--the thing was not exactly as it should have been." It was a critical period, he said, and if the expenses were not paid, it might have a bad effect in future.
Mr. KITCHELL was in favor of the committee rising. He remembered the transactions which took place on this business, as mentioned by his colleague, (Mr. DAYTON.) He said, he was one of those who voted against the proposition of using hostile means, because he thought it possible to ward off the evil. It had been warded off; but he believed there was sufficient ground for calling out General Sevier, and he doubted not, if the business was referred to a select committee, the result would be satisfactory to those gentlemen who brought forward the business.
The committee rose, and leave not being granted to sit again, on motion, the report and papers accompanying it were referred to a select committee of Messrs. A. JACKSON, J. SMITH, BLOUNT, DENT, and HARPER.[7]
FRIDAY, January 20, 1797.
Direct Taxes.
The House then took up the consideration of the resolution reported yesterday by the Committee of the Whole, on the subject of further revenue.
Mr. COIT wished for a division of the question, viz: that the proposition for a tax on land and that for slaves should be put separately.
Mr. SWANWICK called for the yeas and nays. They were agreed to be taken.
Mr. NICHOLAS thought the resolution should not be divided, but that the propositions for a tax on land and a tax on slaves should go together, as he should object to vote for the tax on land except that on slaves accompanied it. He thought the gentleman had better try the question, by moving to strike out what respected slaves.
Mr. MADISON thought it would be best for the two propositions to go together; but if they did not, he did not think the embarrassments insuperable. If the question was divided, those who thought a tax on slaves necessary must vote for the first part; and if the second was rejected, there would not be wanting an opportunity of voting against the tax on land. It was necessary to observe, that it had been found expedient to associate these two taxes together, in order to do justice, and to conform to the established usage of a very large tract of country, who were entitled to some degree of attention, and to whom a tax on land, without a tax on slaves, would be very objectionable.
Mr. COIT said, he could not gratify the gentleman from Virginia by varying his motion, as it would not answer the purpose he had in view.
Mr. NICHOLAS supposed, if the motion was persisted in, he was at liberty to move to insert slaves in the first part of the resolution. The gentleman certainly knew his own views best; or he thought it was possible to have settled the business he proposed.
Mr. W. SMITH saw no difficulty on the subject. Gentlemen would vote for the first part of the resolution, in hopes that the second would pass; but if it did not pass, they would have an opportunity of voting on the main question, and thereby defeat the whole.
Mr. VAN CORTLANDT would vote for both together, but not separately.
Mr. GALLATIN inquired as to a point of order, whether, if the first part of the resolution was carried, and the second negatived, the question would not then be taken upon the resolution as amended?
The SPEAKER answered in the affirmative.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, it would save time if the question was taken upon the whole resolution together; for if several gentlemen voted against the first proposition, lest the last should not pass, the whole might in this way be defeated. He thought a vote might be safely taken upon the whole together, as no one would be bound by the vote in favor of the bill, if he should not approve of it. For his own part, he wished to see the plan, though he did not know that he should vote for it.
Mr. NICHOLAS supposed there was not the difficulty mentioned by the gentleman from New York. Gentlemen would not risk the whole by voting against the first part of the resolution; since, if the second was not carried, they could afterwards reject the whole.
The question was then put, that the House agree to the first resolution, viz:
"Resolved, That there ought to be appropriated, according to the last census, on the several States, the sum of----, to be raised by the following direct taxes, viz:
"A tax ad valorem, under proper regulations and exceptions, on all lands, with their improvements, including town lots, with the buildings thereon."
It was resolved in the affirmative--yeas 48, nays 39.
The second part of the resolution, relative to slaves, was about to be put, when
Mr. GALLATIN said, before the question was taken on this division, he would just mention why this species of personal property was brought under view, whilst all other personal property was unnoticed.
It was very true, that stock upon a farm in the Northern and Eastern States paid nearly as great a proportion of the taxes of those States as the negroes did those of the Southern States, and therefore it might seem somewhat wrong to introduce negroes in the one case and not cattle in the other. The reason which induced the Committee of Ways and Means to adopt this mode was, that negroes are confined to certain spots of land in the Southern States, while horses and cattle extend nearly over a whole country. And a land tax, unaccompanied with a tax on slaves, would be very unpopular in those States, as it would throw too great a burden upon farmers who did not hold slaves, and fall too lightly upon those whose property chiefly consisted of slaves. There was this difference betwixt the two species of property: A farmer in the Northern or Eastern States would not think himself aggrieved by not paying a tax upon his farming stock; but a farmer in the Southern States would think himself aggrieved if his land was taxed, whilst the slaves of the slaveholder were not taxed. It was on this account that this species of property was introduced.
Mr. MURRAY was not struck with the observations of the gentleman last up, so as to say he would ultimately vote for this species of tax; at present, he should vote for a bill to be brought in; but unless he found the bill could reconcile the principle more, and do greater justice in the case than he at present conceived, he should then oppose it.
He said, he considered slaves in the Southern States as laborers, and unless gentlemen could show him where laborers were taxed, he should not think it right to vote for that part of the bill. He was decidedly in favor of a land tax, but against the other part of the question. Mr. M. said, he merely mentioned this that he might not hereafter be charged with inconsistency, in case he should vote against the bill. He repeated, unless provision be made for taxing labor in other parts of the United States, he must vote against this part of the bill if brought in, because the tax would operate very unequally.
Mr. HARPER said, though he was entirely opposed to the tax proposed by the resolution, and should vote against the whole, yet he thought it right that a tax on slaves should be introduced with a tax on land; for, as this direct tax was to be raised by apportionment through the States, whether the Southern States paid on slaves, or the Northern States on land, made no difference in effect; each paid in its own way; one mode was more convenient for the Northern, another for the Southern, and another for the Eastern--no injury was done by this to any other State.
Mr. G. JACKSON said, he was against all species of direct taxation, but particularly on this species; and, if a tax on land was carried, he should bring forward a resolution to lay a tax upon all property vested in public securities. He wished for the yeas and nays on this question.
The yeas and nays were agreed to be taken.
Mr. NICHOLAS wondered to hear the observation of his colleague. He should vote for the question, though he and his constituents would be affected by it; but, in the district which that gentleman represented, there were no slaves; and it was therefore his constituents' interest to have a tax on slaves, in order to lighten that on land.
Mr. G. JACKSON said, it was not so much on account of the interest of himself or constituents that he opposed this tax, but he objected to it as a capitation tax.
Mr. MOORE said, the situation of the Southern States had been truly stated. In the Western parts, there were few slaves. He said, in the representation to that House, the labor of the negroes had been considered as five to three, with respect to white persons; therefore, the ability of the State to pay was considered in the same proportion. His colleague from the mountains (Mr. G. JACKSON) should consider that, if the holders of slaves were not to pay a portion of the tax imposed on the State of Virginia, it would fall very heavy upon his constituents, and those of his colleague, where few blacks were kept.
He hoped, therefore, it would pass.
Mr. JEREMIAH SMITH was aware that a tax on slaves would lighten the tax on land in the Southern States, and therefore he did not wonder at the Representatives from those States wishing it to take place; but, by so apportioning the tax, would not the landholders in the Southern States pay less than the landholders in parts of the Union where no slaves were kept? He believed they would. A person, for instance, in New Hampshire, holding the value of £1,000 in land, would pay a larger portion of the tax than a holder of land to the same extent in Virginia. He believed this would be unjust, and an objection to this mode of taxing the Southern States, as, though the tax would fall more equally on them, it would not be so with respect to other States.
Mr. GOODRICH said, this tax was introduced into the system for the accommodation of that part of the Union where slaves were numerous.
A disposition to render the plan as acceptable, in every part of the country, as it could be made, consistently with the interests of the whole, ought to prevail. But, before a tax on slaves was adopted, its operation on the Union, and its effects, as it respected different districts, should be considered.
A direct tax ought to fall as equally as possible every where; that on land and houses, with their improvements, which had been agreed to, would be laid by a valuation seldom repeated--perhaps, once in ten or fifteen years. The expense of its assessment and collection would be nearly equal throughout the United States; but, with respect to a tax on slaves, there would be required frequent enumerations--at least an annual enumeration. This would be attended with considerable expense, to be defrayed, not by the particular districts, for whose benefit this species of tax was introduced, but by the United States.
There was another objection. A land tax was certain--it might, and undoubtedly would, be made a lien on the real estate on which it was laid. It would, be liable to little, if any, loss. Not so with a tax on slaves. Such a tax, he apprehended, would be uncertain, exposing the revenue to considerable defalcations. If a provision could not be made to place the loss on the districts where it happened, by retaxing them it would operate unequally. He imagined a retaxation for defalcation, if it could be made, would be considered as unjust, and create discontent among the individuals who were subjected to it; and if that could not be done, the deficiency must fall on the Union, and would produce uneasiness from its partial effects. He did not know how the detail would be arranged. He had been of the number who were desirous to see the collection-law, before they decided on the resolution before them, so as to have possessed the whole subject. At present, he saw so many difficulties from incorporating this species of tax into the plan, he could not assent to it.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, he did not understand the objections of the gentleman from New Hampshire, (Mr. J. SMITH.) He did not see how he could produce an equal value in land in every part of the Union. The tax, he said, would be apportioned according to the number of persons, and not according to the number of acres in any State.
If the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. GOODRICH) would rely upon his information, he might be assured that an annual enumeration of slaves would not cost so much as an assessment of land made once in ten years. With respect to the tax being uncertain, he was totally mistaken. It was the most productive tax in the Southern States. If the tax was laid wholly upon land, it would be laid on a great part which would be unsaleable, and when a report came to be made of the collection, there would be found great deficiencies; but, with respect to slaves, there would be no failure, because they were a species of property which would always find a ready sale in the Southern market.
Mr. S. SMITH said, he had heard much on that floor with respect to equality of taxation. It was impossible, he said, to make taxes fall exactly equal; they will fall, in some cases, heavier than in others. He would state a case. When a tax on carriages was under consideration, they found the gentlemen from Connecticut voting without scruple, because that State paid only two or three hundred dollars annually, when Maryland paid five thousand dollars a year to that duty. There was no equality in this; yet those gentlemen winked at the disproportion. He hoped they would do so in the present case.
Mr. POTTER said, if this part of the resolution was agreed to, it was to apportion a tax on the personal property of the Southern States, which, no doubt, they would be glad of; and if gentlemen from those States could point out any way by which the personal property of other States could be come at, he would agree to the present proposition; but he believed this could not be done; and, if not, he saw no reason why the personal property of those States should be made to bear a part of the proposed burden, whilst personal property in other States was suffered to go free. It was a hard case, he said, that a man who possessed three or four hundred dollars in land, should be made to pay a portion of the direct tax, whilst men of affluence, who possessed many thousands in public securities, or loaned on interest, should pay nothing.
The SPEAKER reminded the House that the question was very much lost sight of; it was not whether a tax should be laid on carriages or personal property, but whether they would agree to the report of the Committee of the Whole, viz: "that a tax should be laid on slaves, with certain exceptions."
Mr. HENDERSON said, he should vote against this proposition, because it was a direct tax, as he should vote against every question of that kind, until every source of indirect taxation was exhausted; and he thought this was not the case at present.
Mr. CLAIBORNE said, he thought, also, that direct taxes should not be resorted to until indirect sources were exhausted; but he believed, they were now exhausted, and that direct taxes were the only means left to them of raising money. As he lived in a country which was unfortunately cursed with negroes, he wished the present motion to pass, for the sake of making the tax bear, in some degree, equally in the Southern States; but if he thought with his colleague (Mr. JACKSON) that a tax on slaves bore any affinity to a capitation tax, he should also oppose it; but he had no such idea.
Mr. GALLATIN said, he would just notice what had fallen from the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. GOODRICH) which was the only thing like argument which had been used against the present proposition. As to what had been said about the quantum of tax falling on different States, or what had been said by the gentleman from Rhode Island (Mr. POTTER) with respect to the personal property of the Eastern States, he did not see how it applied to the present question. If the proposed tax was certain, and the expense of collection would not be greater than would attend the collection of the tax in other States, he did not see any objection to it.
The gentleman from Connecticut had said, that the expense of an annual enumeration of slaves would be great, and that it would fall upon the United States. He would inform that gentleman and the House, that when no assessment took place, but merely an enumeration, it would be attended with no expense on the collection of the tax. The distinction which he made was, when a valuation and enumeration were both necessary, and when an enumeration alone was necessary. In the first instance, the value of the property was to be ascertained, and the tax laid accordingly; but where an enumeration was only wanted, (the tax per head, according to age, &c., having been settled,) no expense would be incurred.
Mr. G. said, he spoke from experience. In Pennsylvania there was a certain tax on personal property, the taking an account of which did not increase the expense. Every three years there was an assessment of personal property, amongst which was slaves; but the enumeration was managed in this way: the collector called twice upon persons--the first time he gave them notice to pay, and took an account of their property, which, consisting of few articles, and the value being already fixed, he could tell them at the time, the amount to be paid at his next call.
As to any degree of uncertainty apprehended from this tax, that might be removed by throwing the deficiency, if there should be any, upon the land. He thought, therefore, the objections which had been urged against this tax would be completely obviated.
Mr. COIT allowed, that nothing was more clear than that the manner in which the Southern States paid their apportionment of the proposed burden, could make no difference to the Northern and Eastern States; but the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) allowed there was some weight in the objections, with respect to the assessment and collection of the tax.
If he understood that gentleman, he said that the making an enumeration of slaves would make no difference in the expense. He did not know how this could be. If two objects were to do, viz: to value and assess the land, and to enumerate and value the slave, it was new doctrine to him, if these two things would not cost more than if only one had been done; or, if this business would be done for nothing, it would be one of the first things the United States had had done upon those terms.
Upon the collection, there would also be an additional expense and a probability of loss; the more detail there was in the business, the greater liability to error and loss to the United States; and in proportion to this loss would these States pay less than others.
Mr. HARTLEY said, he should at present vote for the proposition; but should feel himself at liberty to vote differently on the bill, if he did not approve it. Difficulties arose in his mind as to the propriety of taxing personal property in one State and not in another, by which means a bounty seemed to be given on land in the Southern States to the amount of the difference of the taxes between the land in those States, and that in other States, upon which purchasers would naturally calculate. This difficulty might probably be removed from his mind; and, therefore, in order to give the whole of the business a fair chance, he should wish the resolutions to go back to the Committee of Ways and Means, to bring in a bill.
Mr. PAGE did suppose that gentlemen coming from States which were in the habit of collecting direct taxes, would have endeavored to accommodate the business to the situation and circumstances of different States, so as to make the system the most convenient to each. He did suppose that, whenever it should have been determined to enter upon direct taxation, that sums would have been apportioned to each State, and that they would have been left to themselves to have raised the money in the way which they thought most convenient. Insuperable objections, however, it seemed, had been found against this system, as appeared from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but it was unreasonable that the Northern States should complain that the Southern States would pay the tax with greater facility than them. They might, he said, as well complain against the richness of their soil, or the warmness of their climate.
With respect to the tax falling lighter on them than on other States, those who held slaves would find it lighter, but those who had none, would not. But he thought it extraordinary that, whilst they were upbraided with holding a species of property peculiar to their country, they should also be upbraided with wishing to pay a duty upon that property.
Mr. P. said, he did not see what difference it could make to other States, that they raised a part of the tax required of them from slaves. The Secretary of the Treasury had recommended this mode, the Committee of Ways and Means had reported accordingly; and they were ready to pay a tax for their slaves, in addition to the expense they were at for them already; for, it should be recollected, persons holding slaves, contribute largely to the duties collected from imposts, by the purchase of flannels and cloth, rum, molasses, &c., necessary for their food and clothing.
If a person living in a State where slavery did not exist, paid something more for his land, the difference was certainly not equal to the satisfaction he must enjoy in reflecting, that his State was free from that evil. His land, on that account, would be worth three times as much as land of the same quality in the Southern States. Why, then, do gentlemen complain? The Southern States themselves might have objected to this tax; they might have doubted the constitutionality of it; indeed, he did doubt it, but he had agreed to it; and he believed there was no better way of making the tax go down in those States, than by the present measure.
For his own part, Mr. P. said, he wished he lived where there was no slavery; and if he could find a climate he liked as well, he would change his situation on that account.
Mr. BRENT said, it was a very extraordinary thing that gentlemen who represented States where there were no slaves, should oppose a tax on that species of property, and that the Southern States where slavery existed, should be advocating that tax.
By the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, there appeared a deficiency of revenue, and in order to supply that deficiency, they had determined to have recourse to direct taxation; and, after the amount which each State ought to furnish, had been ascertained, he thought it should have been left to the different States to have raised the money from such funds as they judged best, provided they had been secure. This, he thought, would only have been liberal and proper. It had, however, been determined otherwise; but, from a knowledge that, by introducing land and slaves together, as objects of taxation, the tax would be more equally levied in the Southern States, if that plan had been adopted. And, surely, he said, it could have given no satisfaction to any other State, that, by laying a tax on land only, it should have operated in a very oppressive manner in some parts of the Southern States, and scarcely have been felt at all in other parts of those States; and yet, this would appear to be the opinion of the gentleman from New Hampshire; for, he said, if this law passed, a person possessing landed property in New Hampshire, of the value of £1,000, would pay more than a landholder to that amount in the Southern States. And was this, he asked, a subject of regret? If the State of Virginia paid the amount required of her in a manner which bore most equally upon the whole of her citizens, ought that to displease the citizens of other States? He thought not. He was of opinion, that it would be a desirable thing that the tax should be found to fall equally on the citizens of every State.
Another objection, produced by the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. GOODRICH) was that a tax on this species of property would not be so secure as a tax on land. If that gentleman had been acquainted with the situation of the Southern States, he would have known that slaves formed the most certain fund of those States; for, whilst their wide and extensive waste lands would not command any price, slaves were always ready sale. Hence it arose, that the States were not able to raise a tax on land, whilst a tax on slaves had never failed to be productive.
With respect to the inconvenience or expense attending a tax on slaves, in Virginia, he said, no expense would be necessary; because it was the custom of that State to take annually, a list of their slaves, which was regularly recorded in the archives of the State. If gentlemen were, therefore, so economical that they would not expend a few of the public pence to get a list of this property, let them recur to the document he had mentioned, which might be done without expense.
To those who know the situation of the Southern States, the remarks made by the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) must have been irresistibly impressive. Almost the whole of the lower part of the country possessed property of this kind, whilst the upper parts had scarcely any. If a tax was, therefore, imposed upon land only, the upper part of the country would be extremely aggravated, and would murmur, and they would murmur with justice.
Gentlemen from the Eastern States called upon the Representatives of the Southern States to point out a mode by which they might come at the personal property of their States. But, he would ask them, if, independent of land with its improvements, they possessed any other species of property which could not be eluded? He believed they could not point it out; why, then, call upon gentlemen from the Southern States to do, what they, who certainly knew best their own resources, were unable to do?
The gentlemen from the Southern States, he said, had discovered those objects which they thought best able to bear the burden; and if the Representatives of the other States were not satisfied with the tax on land, let them come forward and say what other property they have equally secure, upon which a tax may be laid.
It was a phenomenon, he would again say, that the Representatives of States where slavery existed, should be contending for a tax upon slaves, and that members from States where slavery was not tolerated, were opposing it. He could not help believing that the real object of gentlemen had not been avowed. It was something hidden and unseen.[8]
Mr. KITTERA said, that the opposers of this part of the resolution were the opposers of a direct tax altogether. It was observable that those upon whom the tax would fall, did not complain. It was extraordinary that the complaints should come from another quarter. As to the objections of his colleague (Mr. HARTLEY) that part of the tax being laid on slaves in the Southern States, would affect the value of land, it would make no difference whether the tax was on land or slaves, as it affected land, its operation would be the same. It was therefore no solid objection against the resolution.
On the question, that the House do agree to the last part of the said resolution, in the words following, to wit: "A tax on slaves, with certain exceptions;" it was resolved in the affirmative--yeas 68, nays 23, as follows:
YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Thomas Blount, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, Isaac Coles, William Cooper, William Craik, James Davenport, George Dent, George Ege, William Findlay, Abiel Foster, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, William B. Grove, Wade Hampton, George Hancock, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, William Hindman, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, John Wilkes Kittera, Matthew Locke, Samuel Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Josiah Parker, John Patton, Francis Preston, Robert Rutherford, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, Jr., William Strudwick, John Swanwick, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Abraham Venable, Peleg Wadsworth, John Williams, and Richard Winn.
NAYS.--Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit, Samuel W. Dana, Henry Dearborn, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman, Jr., Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Thomas Henderson, George Jackson, William Lyman, Francis Malbone, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, John S. Sherburne, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, and Joseph B. Varnum.
And then the main question being taken, that the House do agree to the resolution, as reported by the Committee of the whole House, it was resolved in the affirmative--yeas 49, nays 39.
Ordered, That the Committee of Ways and Means do prepare and bring in a bill or bills, pursuant to the said resolution.
MONDAY, January 23.
THOMPSON J. SKINNER, from Massachusetts, in place of THEODORE SEDGWICK, appointed a Senator of the United States, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat in the House.
FRIDAY, January 27.
Appropriations for 1797.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the subject of appropriations for the year 1797, when the article which relates to the contingent expenses of the two branches of the Legislature, amounting to twelve thousand dollars, being read,
Mr. BALDWIN said, he had often before made the remark, (and he thought it not unseasonable now to repeat it,) that the House was too apt to be merely formal and superficial in passing on the general estimate for the year. He was sorry to observe that this item had within this year or two been considerably increased; he believed the price of wood, stationery, and other articles purchased for the session, was now much the same as in 1795, though the printer's bill might be higher; yet, as the session would be but three months, he thought the sum allowed for 1795 would be sufficient. He had always thought this charge for the contingencies of the two Houses, one of the strongest instances of that kind of loose economy which it has been complained, and perhaps with too much justice, pervades all the operations of the Federal Government--we have often been reminded that, to make an expedition into the woods to an Indian town, or to build a frigate, or to coin one hundred tons of copper, costs us a great deal more than it ever did any other Government in this country. If this is a strong instance of that style of economy, let us begin the reformation with ourselves, and not be so prodigal this year in our contingent expenses; our circumstances call on us for greater attention to economy. He was sensible the place for correcting these evils was ordinarily on passing the law authorizing the expense, and not on the appropriation for the payment of it; but this item, and many others, depended on no law--changing the sum in the estimate will control the expense. If any one will take the trouble of looking over the vouchers on which these accounts have been settled for past years, he will see that there is room for more economy. One branch of the Legislature consists of about thirty members--four thousand dollars is a great sum for the purchase of their wood, quills, and paper, and for furnishing them with copies of business under consideration. Is it possible that twelve thousand dollars can be necessary for the two Houses? The whole yearly expenses of some of the State Governments do not amount to a much greater sum--he hoped this would be struck out, and the sum which was allowed for 1795, and some preceding years, be inserted.
Mr. SMITH presumed the estimate was founded upon information received from the Secretary of the Senate and the Clerk of that House. He did not conceive it would make any difference in the expenditure, whether a larger or smaller sum be appropriated; as he did not suppose the Senate or that House would print the less because a less sum was appropriated. The gentleman, he said, might, by his speech, give an idea to the public, that this would be a saving of so much money; but it would, in reality, make no difference.
After a few observations from other members, the question was put and negatived--37 to 30.
The committee then rose, and had leave to sit again. And the House adjourned till Monday.
MONDAY, January 30.
GEORGE LEONARD, from Massachusetts, appeared, and took his seat.
Manumitted Slaves.
[Mr. SWANWICK presented the petition of Jacob Nicholson and Jupiter Nicholson, Job Albertson and Thomas Pritchet, dated at Philadelphia, stating that they had been the slaves of persons in Perquimans County, North Carolina, who had manumitted them, and whose surname they took--that afterwards they had been seized by other persons and sold into slavery under a law of the State--that to escape from this bondage they had fled to Philadelphia, where they had been seized under the fugitive slave act: and pray relief from Congress.]
The petition being read--
Mr. SWANWICK said, he hoped it would be referred to a select committee.
Mr. BLOUNT hoped it would not even be received by the House. Agreeably to a law of the State of North Carolina, he said they were slaves, and could, of course, be seized as such.
Mr. THATCHER thought the petition ought to be referred to the Committee on the Fugitive Law. He conceived the gentleman much mistaken in asserting these petitioners to be absolute slaves. They state that they were slaves, but that their masters manumitted them, and that their manumissions were sanctioned by a law of that State, but that a subsequent law of the same State, subjected them to slavery; and if even there was a law that allowed them to be taken and sold into slavery again, he could not see any propriety in refusing their petition in that House--THEY CERTAINLY (said Mr. T.) ARE FREE PEOPLE. It appeared they were taken under the fugitive act, which he thought ought not to affect them; they now came and prayed the House so to model that fugitive act, as to prevent its affecting persons of their description. He therefore saw great propriety in referring their petition to the committee appointed to amend that act in another part; they could as well consider its relation to the present case. He could not see how there would be a propriety in rejecting their petition; they had an undoubted right to petition the House, and to be heard.
Mr. SWANWICK was surprised at the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. BLOUNT) desiring to reject this petition; he could not have thought, nor could he indulge the suspicion now, that the gentleman was so far from acknowledging the rights of man, as to prevent any class of men from petitioning. If men were aggrieved and conceive they have claim to attention, petitioning was their sacred right, and that right should never suffer innovation; whether the House ought to grant, was another question. The subject of their petition had a claim to the attention of the House. They state they were freed from slavery, but that they were much injured under a law of the United States. If a law was ever made that bore hard on any class of people, Mr. S. hoped that the door would never be shut to their complaints. If the circumstance respecting these people was as they stated, their case was very hard. He animadverted on the atrocity of that reward of ten dollars offered for one of them if taken alive, but that fifty should be given if found dead, and no questions asked. Was not this, he said, encouragement to put a period to that man's existence? Horrid reward! Could gentlemen hear it and not shudder?
Mr. BLOUNT said, the gentleman last up was mistaken in calling the petitioners free men; the laws of North Carolina, as he observed before, did not suffer individuals to emancipate their slaves, and he should wish to know what evidence there was to prove these men free, and except that was proved, the House had no right to attend to the petition.
Mr. SITGREAVES, in answer to the gentleman last up, said he would reverse his question, and ask what evidence he had to prove that these men are not freemen; can he prove they are slaves? They have stated that a law has been made in North Carolina with a view to affect their case, and bring them again into a worse slavery than before; they want to know whether they cannot obtain relief by their application to the Government of the United States. Under these circumstances, Mr. S. wished to know why their petitions should not be taken into consideration? Was there any thing in these men, he asked, that should prevent every kind of assistance being bestowed on them? Had they not an equal right to be heard with other petitioners? He hoped the House would not only give them a hearing, but afford them all the consolation of which their unfortunate case was susceptible. If the House were obliged, through a want of power to extend to the case, to object compliance with the prayers, yet, he hoped it would be done with all due tenderness; before hearing them, he thought it would be exceedingly unjust to decide. These people may produce documents sufficient to obtain favorable attention; therefore, it was impossible before they were heard to conceive whether the House could constitutionally grant relief or not. He could see no impropriety in referring it; the object of referring a case, was to inquire into facts; thus, the committee prepared the way for discussion in the House; and why the House should refuse to deliberate and discuss this case, he knew not.
Mr. HEATH was clearly convinced these people were slaves, and therefore hoped their petition would lie on the table. He would remind the gentleman that, if they undertook this business, they would soon have petitions enough of the same kind, and public business would be thereby prevented. It appeared to him to be more within the jurisdiction of the Legislature of that State; indeed, the United States had nothing to do with it.
Mr. MADISON said, he should be sorry to reject any petition whatever, in which it became the business of the House to attend; but he thought this case had no claim on their attention. Yet, if it did not come within the purview of the Legislative body, he thought, it might be suffered to lie on the table. He thought it a judicial case, and could obtain its due in a Court of Appeal in that State. If they are free by the laws of North Carolina, they ought to apply to those laws, and have their privilege established. If they are slaves, the constitution gives them no hope of being heard here. A law has been passed to prevent the owners of those slaves emancipating them; it is therefore impossible that any relief can be granted. The petitioners are under the laws of North Carolina, and those laws cannot be the interpreters of the laws of the United States.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, he was not prepared to deny that this petition is in the situation the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) states; nor was he prepared to prove that it came under the power of the General Government; but he could see no kind of reason why it should not be sent to a committee who should examine the case and report whether it required Legislative interference, or whether it was a subject of judicial authority in the country whence the petitioners came. Many petitions, he said, were sent to the House, who referred them for investigation to a committee, and many had been reported as being under judicial power only, and as such been rejected here. If this underwent the same order, and should be found to be of a judicial nature, the committee would report so, and the House would honorably refuse it. This he thought the only just method.
Mr. RUTHERFORD concurred with the gentleman from Pennsylvania, that this memorial ought to be referred to a committee who would report whether these people had been emancipated, according to a law of the State of North Carolina, or not. The circumstances attending this case, he said, demanded a just and full investigation, and if a law did exist either to emancipate, or send these poor people into slavery, the House would then know. He doubted not, every thing just and proper would be done, but he hoped every due respect would be paid to the petition. In short, he was assured every member in the House would wish to act consistently. This case, from the great hardships represented in the petition, applied closely to the nicest feelings of the heart, and he hoped humanity would dictate a just decision.
Mr. GILBERT hoped the petition would be referred to the committee proposed; he thought it laid claim to the humanity of the House. He thought every just satisfaction should be given, and attention paid, to every class of persons who appeal for decision to the House.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the practice of a former time, in a similar case, was, that the petition was sealed up and sent back to the petitioners, not being allowed even to remain on the files of the office. This method, he said, ought to be pursued with respect to the present petition. It was not a matter that claimed the attention of the Legislature of the United States. He thought it of such an improper nature, as to be surprised any gentleman would present a petition of the kind. These men are slaves, and, he thought, not entitled to attention from that body; to encourage slaves to petition the House would have a tendency to invite continual applications. Indeed it would tend to spread an alarm throughout the Southern States; it would act as an "entering-wedge," whose consequences could not be foreseen. This is a kind of property on which the House has no power to legislate. He hoped it would not be committed at all; it was not a proper subject for Legislative attention. He was not of the opinion of some gentlemen, that the House were bound to sit on every question recommended to their notice. He thought particular attention ought to be paid to the lateness of the session; if this subject were to be considered, too much time of the House would be devoured which was much wanted on important business.
Mr. THATCHER said, he was in favor of referring this petition. He could see no reason which had been adduced to prove the impropriety of receiving a petition from these people. The gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. BLOUNT) is of the opinion that these people being slaves, the House ought not to pay attention to their prayer. This, he said, was quite new language--a system of conduct which he never saw the House practise, and hoped he never should. That the House should not receive a petition without an evidence to prove it was from a free man. This was a language which opposed the constitutional freedom of every State where the Declaration of Rights had been made; they all declare that every man is born equally free, and that each has an equal right to petition if aggrieved--this doctrine he never heard objected to.
The gentlemen from Virginia (Mr. MADISON and Mr. HEATH) had said, it was a Judicial and not a Legislative question; they say the petition proves it, and that it ought not to be attended to. Mr. T. said, he saw no proof whatever of the impropriety of the House receiving it. There might be some Judicial question growing out of the case; but that was no reason, because it might possibly undergo a Judicial course, that the General Government were not to be petitioned. The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. SMITH) had said, "that this was a kind of property on which the House could not legislate;" but he would answer, this was a kind of property on which they were bound to legislate. The fugitive act could prove this authority; if petitions were not to be received they would have to legislate in the dark. It appeared plainly that these men were manumitted by their masters; and because a number of men who called themselves legislators should, after they had the actual enjoyment of their liberty, come forward and say that these men should not remain at liberty, and actually authorize their recaptivity, he thought it exceedingly unjust to deprive them of the right of petitioning to have their injuries redressed. These were a set of men on whom the fugitive law had no power, and he thought they claimed protection under the power of that House, which always ought to lean towards freedom. Though they could not give freedom to slaves, yet he hoped gentlemen would never refuse to lend their aid to secure freemen in their rights against tyrannical imposition.
Mr. CHRISTIE thought no part of the fugitive act operated against freedom. He thought no good could be derived from sending the petition to a committee; they could not prove whether they were slaves or not. He was much surprised any gentleman in the House should present such a petition. Mr. C. said, he was of the same opinion with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. SMITH) that the petition ought to be sent back again. He hoped the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. SWANWICK) would never hand such another petition into the House.
Mr. HOLLAND said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. THATCHER) said, "the House ought to lean towards freedom." Did he mean to set all slaves at liberty, or receive petitions from all? Sure he was, that if this was received, it would not be long before the table would be filled with similar complaints, and the House might sit for no other purpose than to hear them. It was a Judicial question, and the House ought not to pretend to determine the point; why, then, should they take up time upon it? To put an end to it he hoped, it would be ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. MACON said, he had hearkened very closely to the observations of gentlemen on the subject, and could see no reason to alter his desire that it would not be committed. No man, he said, wished to encourage petitions more than himself, and no man had considered this subject more. These men could not receive any aid from the General Government; but by application to the State, justice would be done them. Trials of this kind had very frequently been brought on in all the different courts of that State, and had very often ended in the freedom of slaves; the appeal was fair, and justice was done. Mr. M. thought it a very delicate subject for the General Government to act on; he hoped it would not be committed; but he should not be sorry if the proposition of a gentleman (Mr. SMITH) was to take place, that it was to be sent back again.
Mr. W. SMITH observed, that a gentleman (Mr. THATCHER) had uttered a wish to draw these people from their state of slavery to liberty. Mr. S. did not think they were sent there to take up the subject of emancipation. When subjects of this kind are brought up in the House they ought to be deprecated as dangerous. They tended to produce very uncomfortable circumstances.
Mr. VARNUM said, the petitioners had received injury under a law of the United States, (the fugitive act) and not merely a law of North Carolina, and therefore, he thought, they had an undoubted right to the attention of the General Government if that act bore hard on them. They stated themselves to be freemen, and he did not see any opposition of force to convince the House they were not; surely it could not be said that color alone should designate them as slaves. If these people had been free, and yet were taken up under a law of the United States, and put into prison, then it appeared plainly the duty of the House to inquire whether that act had such an unjust tendency, and if it had, proper amendments should be made to it to prevent the like consequences in future. It required nothing more under that act than that the person suspected should be brought before a single magistrate, and evidence given that he is a slave, which evidence the magistrate could not know if distant from the State; the person may be a freeman, for it would not be easy to know whether the evidence was good, at a distance from the State; the poor man is then sent to his State in slavery. Mr. V. hoped the House would take all possible care that freemen should not be made slaves; to be deprived of liberty was more important than to be deprived of property. He could not think why gentlemen should be against having the fact examined; if it appears that they are slaves, the petition will of course be dismissed, but if it should appear they are free, and receive injury under the fugitive act, the United States ought to amend it, so that justice should be done.
Mr. BLOUNT said, admitting those persons who had been taken up were sent back to North Carolina, they would then have permission to apply to any of the courts in the State for a fair trial of their plea; there are very few courts in which some negroes have not tried this cause, and obtained their liberty. He agreed with the gentleman from Massachusetts, on the freedom of these men to procure their rights; it did not appear to him that they were free; true they had been set free, but that manumission was from their masters, who had not a right to set them free without permission of the Legislature.
Mr. KITCHELL could not see what objection could obtain to prevent these people being heard. The question was not now, whether they are or are not slaves, but it is on a law of the United States. They assert that this law does act injuriously to them; the question is, therefore, whether a committee shall be appointed to inquire on the improper force of this law on the case of these men; if they are freemen, he said, they ought not to be sent back from the most distant part of the United States to North Carolina, to have justice done them, but they ought to receive it from the General Government who made the law they complain of.
Mr. K. said, he had not examined the force of the law on the subject, and was not prepared to decide; there could be no evil in referring it for examination; when the committee would report their opinion of the subject and gentlemen be prepared to act on it.
On the question for receiving the petition being put, it was negatived--ayes 33, noes 50.[9]
TUESDAY, February 7.
THOMAS SPRIGG, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat.
Increase of Salaries.
A bill was also received from the Senate for increasing the compensation of the members of the Legislature and certain officers of Government; which was read, and, on motion that it be read a second time, it was carried, 33 to 30. It was accordingly read a second time.
The bill contemplates an advance of $5,000 to the present salary of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and $2,000 to the VICE PRESIDENT, to commence on the 4th of March next, and continue for four years; and that the members of the Senate and House of Representatives, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of War, Attorney General, Postmaster General, Assistant Postmaster General, Comptroller of the Treasury, Auditor, Register, Commissioner of the Revenue, Accountant of the War Department, the Secretary of the Senate, the Clerk of the House of Representatives, and the principal clerks employed by them, the Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Representatives, the Door-keepers and Assistant Door-keepers of both Houses, have an advance of 25 per cent. upon their present compensation.
Mr. PARKER moved that the further consideration of this bill be postponed till the first Monday in December next. He said they had lately had the subject of augmenting the salaries of all the officers here mentioned, except the PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT and themselves, under consideration; and as they had resolved to refuse an advance to others, he trusted they should also refuse it to themselves. He thought the present an improper time to go into the subject.
Mr. HARTLEY wished the gentleman would consent to some day next week. He could not say he was ready to agree to the whole of the advances proposed, but he wished the subject to be taken into consideration, and perhaps by the time he had mentioned they might have some further information on the subject of our finances.
Mr. MACON said, the most regular way for the gentleman from Virginia to obtain his object, would be to move to have the bill committed to a Committee of the Whole, and made the order of the day for the 4th of March.
Mr. PARKER made that motion.
Mr. HARTLEY hoped this motion would not be agreed to, as it was a sort of manoeuvre to get rid of the subject, which he did not approve. He would either have the bill negatived at once, made the order of some day in the present session, or postponed till the next.
Mr. AMES said gentlemen had no doubt a right to govern their own votes according to their own notions of propriety. No man had a right to prescribe to another. His conscience was no rule to any other man. But he thought he was authorized to say, they neither had nor claimed a right to do a right thing in a wrong way. To agree to the motion proposed, would be an insincere way of putting a negative upon the bill. He trusted gentlemen who wished this would do it in a more direct way. The compensation of the PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT could not be augmented, he said, after they had entered upon their office; and to say they would take up the subject for consideration at a time when their powers would not exist, was an evasive manner, which he approved not. It was an easy thing for gentlemen to say no on the question, without taking this circuitous way of putting an end to the subject.
Mr. VENABLE thought the view of his colleague would be answered as well by a postponement to the 3d of March as to the 4th, and it would be more orderly. Nor did he think this way of disposing of the business called for the censure which the gentleman from Massachusetts had thrown upon it. It was a question upon which that House had already decided by a considerable majority. No new light had been thrown upon the subject, and he thought it by no means disrespectful to postpone it. It was well known that the effect of this motion would be a postponement for the present session. This was what he wished; and if his colleague would consent to alter his motion to the 3d of March, he should not hesitate to vote for it.
Mr. PARKER had no objection to the motion standing for the 3d of March, though he did not consider the motions for the first Monday in December or the 4th of March as unparliamentary. He thought the salaries of the PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT high enough. The salaries of some of their public officers might at present be somewhat too low, but the time would soon come when the price of living would become lower, and then they would be fully adequate; and therefore he did not wish to see them advanced at present.
Mr. BUCK was opposed to putting off the question till the time contemplated by the present motion. To get rid of the subject in such a way, would be descending from that state of independence which they ought to preserve, and would have the appearance of a slight cast upon another branch of Government. If they were prepared to meet the question, they might as well meet it now as then. To agree to the motion proposed, would show a degree of cowardice, and effectually put it out of their power to consider and determine upon the subject. The Senate, he said, had found sufficient reason to originate this bill, and he thought, if it were only out of complaisance to them, the subject should not be treated in the way proposed. It was said that this subject had already been decided, but he did not think so. There had been no general proposition for augmenting compensation. They had had the subject under view partially, but he knew there were some members (he knew of one at least) who voted against any partial advance, because they thought it should be general. This was his motive. He thought all the officers of Government were upon an equal footing, and therefore he voted against advancing the salary of one and not of another--not because he thought they were already sufficiently compensated; he did not think they were. He wished, therefore, the subject for a general augmentation to come under discussion. If he should be convinced an advance was improper, he should give it up, and should be against putting the subject off to a time when it could not be considered.
Mr. HARTLEY again urged the propriety of postponing for a shorter period: he mentioned the 17th instant.
Mr. MACON said he was opposed to the bill in toto, and he considered the motion of the gentleman from Virginia as meant to try the question. He wished it to stand for the 4th of March, as at first proposed, because, if it stood for the 3d, the subject might be called up and acted upon on the last day of the session. He should therefore renew the 4th of March, because, if there were a majority who wished the bill to be rejected, it was desirable that as little time as possible should be lost upon the subject.
The question for postponing till the 4th of March was put and negatived, 46 to 45.
Mr. PARKER then moved to have it postponed till the 3d of March.
Mr. HENDERSON thought it more proper to postpone till the 3d than till the 4th. He was ready, he said, to meet the question, either in a direct or indirect way. He had made a calculation, and found that the advances proposed would amount to from $100,000 to $110,000. Mr. H. believed our finances were not in a state to admit of this addition to our expenses; besides, he trusted every necessary of life would soon be reduced in price, so as to render any advance of salary to our officers unnecessary.
The question was put and negatived, 57 to 32.
On motion of Mr. HARTLEY, Friday week was proposed and negatived, there being only 35 votes for it.
Mr. GALLATIN moved that the subject should be made the order for this day. He said he had voted for postponing it till the 4th of March, with a view of getting rid of it; but since it must be considered, he wished it to be disposed of as soon as possible.
Mr. SITGREAVES proposed that it be made the order of the day for Monday.
The sense of the House was first taken for Monday and negatived, there being only 41 votes for it. It was then put for this day and carried, there being 58 votes for it.
WEDNESDAY, February 8.
Election of President.
The SPEAKER informed the House that the hour was come at which they had appointed to meet the Senate, for the purpose of counting the votes for, and declaring the election of a PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and that the Clerk would inform the Senate they were ready to receive them.
The Clerk accordingly waited upon the Senate, and the PRESIDENT and members of the Senate soon after entered and took their seats, the PRESIDENT on the right hand of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and the members of the Senate on the same side of the Chamber; when the President of the Senate (Mr. ADAMS) thus addressed the two Houses:
_Gentlemen of the Senate and of the House of Representatives_:
The purpose for which we are assembled is expressed in the following resolutions. [Mr. ADAMS here read the resolutions which had been adopted by the two Houses relative to the subject.] I have received packets containing the certificates of the votes of the Electors for a President and Vice President of the United States from all the sixteen States of the Union: I have also received duplicates of the returns by post from fifteen of the States. No duplicate from the State of Kentucky is yet come to hand.
It has been the practice heretofore, on similar occasions, to begin with the returns from the State at one end of the United States, and to proceed to the other; I shall therefore do the same at this time.
Mr. ADAMS then took up the packet from the State of Tennessee, and after having read the superscription, broke the seal, and read the certificate of the election of the Electors. He then gave it to the Clerk of the Senate, requesting him to read the report of the Electors, which he accordingly did. All the papers were then handed to the tellers, viz: Mr. SEDGWICK, on the part of the Senate, and Messrs. SITGREAVES and PARKER on the part of the House of Representatives; and when they had noted the contents, the President of the Senate proceeded with the other States, in the following order:
FOR JOHN ADAMS. North Carolina, 1 Virginia, 1 Maryland, 7 Delaware, 3 Pennsylvania, 1 New Jersey, 7 New York, 12 Connecticut, 9 Rhode Island, 4 Massachusetts, 16 Vermont, 4 New Hampshire, 6 -- 71
FOR THOMAS JEFFERSON. Tennessee, 3 Kentucky, 4 Georgia, 4 South Carolina, 8 North Carolina, 11 Virginia, 20 Maryland, 4 Pennsylvania, 14 -- 68
FOR GEORGE WASHINGTON. North Carolina, 1 Virginia, 1 -- 2
FOR THOMAS PINCKNEY. South Carolina, 8 North Carolina, 1 Virginia, 1 Maryland, 4 Delaware, 3 Pennsylvania, 2 New Jersey, 7 New York, 12 Connecticut, 4 Massachusetts, 13 Vermont, 4 -- 59
FOR AARON BURR. Tennessee, 3 Kentucky, 4 North Carolina, 6 Virginia, 1 Maryland, 3 Pennsylvania, 13 -- 30
FOR SAMUEL ADAMS. Virginia, 15
FOR OLIVER ELLSWORTH. Rhode Island, 4 Massachusetts, 1 New Hampshire, 6 -- 11
FOR SAMUEL JOHNSTON. Massachusetts, 2
FOR JAMES IREDELL. North Carolina, 3
FOR JOHN JAY. Connecticut, 5
FOR GEORGE CLINTON. Georgia, 4 Virginia, 3 -- 7
FOR CHARLES COTESWORTH PINCKNEY. North Carolina, 1
FOR JOHN HENRY. Maryland, 2
All the returns having been gone through, Mr. SEDGWICK reported that, according to order, the tellers appointed by the two Houses had performed the business assigned them, and reported the result to be as above stated.
The PRESIDENT of the Senate then thus addressed the two Houses:
_Gentlemen of the Senate and of the House of Representatives_:
By the report which has been made to me by the tellers appointed by the two Houses to examine the votes, there are 71 votes for John Adams, 68 for Thomas Jefferson, 59 for Thomas Pinckney, 30 for Aaron Burr, 15 for Samuel Adams, 11 for Oliver Ellsworth, 7 for George Clinton, 5 for John Jay, 3 for James Iredell, 2 for George Washington, 2 for John Henry, 2 for Samuel Johnston, and 1 for Charles C. Pinckney. The whole number of votes are 138; 70 votes, therefore, make a majority; so that the person who has 71 votes, which is the highest number, is elected President, and the person who has 68 votes, which is the next highest number, is elected Vice President.
The PRESIDENT of the Senate then sat down for a moment, and rising again, thus addressed the two Houses:
In obedience to the Constitution and law of the United States, and to the commands of both Houses of Congress, expressed in their resolution passed in the present session, I declare that
JOHN ADAMS is elected President of the United States, for four years, to commence with the fourth day of March next; and that
THOMAS JEFFERSON is elected Vice President of the United States, for four years, to commence with the fourth day of March next. And may the Sovereign of the Universe, the ordainer of civil government on earth, for the preservation of liberty, justice, and peace, among men, enable both to discharge the duties of these offices conformably to the Constitution of the United States, with conscientious diligence, punctuality, and perseverance.
The PRESIDENT and members of the Senate then retired, and the House came to order; when Mr. SITGREAVES made a report on the business, which was read and ordered to be entered on the journals.
THURSDAY, February 9.
Election of President.
Mr. SITGREAVES, from the joint committee appointed to confer with a committee of the Senate on the subject of the election of a PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT, made a further report, viz: that they had agreed with the committee of the Senate to recommend to the House of Representatives the following resolution:
"Resolved, That the Clerk of this House be directed to give, by letter, to the Vice President elect, a notification of his election."
This resolution was agreed to; but some time afterwards, Mr. PARKER (one of the committee) wished it to be rescinded, as he understood, though the committee from the Senate had concurred in this mode of notifying the VICE PRESIDENT of his election, the Senate would not agree to it, but wished to follow the mode adopted on a former occasion, viz: a message was sent from the House of Representatives to the Senate, directing that the persons elected should be notified in such a manner as they should direct. He wished, therefore, to prevent delay, the resolution might be rescinded and a different one agreed to. This motion occasioned a good deal of conversation. It was observed by the SPEAKER that the resolution was already before the Senate, (where it seemed it was not intended to be sent, as it was a distinct resolution of that House, a similar one to which was proposed for the adoption of the Senate by the joint committee.) It was at length, however, agreed to be rescinded. Immediately after which a message was received from the Senate, informing the House that they had disagreed to the resolution, and appointed a committee of conference. The House accordingly took up the message, and also agreed to appoint a committee of conference.
Compensation to Public Officers.
Mr. PARKER then renewed his motion, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill respecting compensations, Mr. MUHLENBERG in the chair; when
Mr. PARKER moved to strike out the first clause. He thought it necessary to make some additional allowance to the PRESIDENT, but he would do it in a different way from that proposed. When the present PRESIDENT came into office, he said, he had a quantity of furniture presented him, which might now be nearly worn out, and be of little value. It might be proper, therefore, to purchase new furniture for the gentleman just elected. It would be also during the period of the present Presidency that Government would remove to the Federal City, which would be attended with a good deal of expense to the PRESIDENT. He should wish, therefore, that a provision should be made for defraying that expense, and also for the purchasing of new furniture, but he should be opposed to the making of any addition to the salary at present.
Mr. HARTLEY spoke in favor of retaining the clause.
Mr. R. SPRIGG said he should vote against the proposed advance of salary, and could not consent to any other mode of augmenting the present compensation allowed to the PRESIDENT. He could by no means agree to the plan proposed by the gentleman from Virginia; for, if they were to renew the furniture of the PRESIDENT every four or eight years, it would be found a pretty expensive business. That gentleman had also mentioned the removal of the Government, as taking place during the next Presidency; but, he said, the new election would happen about the time of removing the Government, and provision for paying that expense might be made at that time. He thought the salaries were already sufficiently high, and that it would be with difficulty that money was found to pay the present expenses of Government.
Mr. WILLIAMS was of opinion, on the score of economy, that it would be better to advance the compensation of the PRESIDENT in the way proposed by the present bill, and let him purchase his own furniture, than to purchase new furniture, which, perhaps, when the Government was removed, would not be suitable for his house in the Federal City. Mr. W. said he was one of the committee on the subject of compensation, and they endeavored to ascertain whether the twenty-five thousand dollars allowed to the PRESIDENT were an adequate compensation. It was generally believed it was not. They ought, he said, to enable their First Magistrate to live in a style becoming his situation. All their Executive officers should receive such salaries as would enable them to see company agreeably to their rank, otherwise the respectability attached to those offices would suffer greatly in the public opinion. He hoped, therefore, the section would not be struck out.
Mr. BUCK said, as the motion now made was to try the principle, it would be well to go into an examination of the subject. He said he had never been a champion for raising salaries, or a stickler for lowering them; but, as the subject was brought before them, he should cheerfully declare his sentiments upon it. He conceived the true question to be, whether it was right and just that they should augment the salaries of the officers of Government and the members of the Legislature, or whether the present compensations were just and adequate to the sacrifices which they made in undertaking the business of Government. Because he did not believe, with some other gentlemen, that they were to estimate the compensations of their officers in proportion as money was scarce or plentiful in the Treasury, nor did he believe there was a real distress in Government for want of money; but their difficulties arose from a difference of opinion in that House on the mode of raising money. He believed there were persons who thought Government squandered away the public money; that its officers divided the loaves and fishes amongst them; and that the only way in which this profusion of expense could be checked was by pursuing a system of direct taxation, which would make the people feel the amount which they contributed to the support of Government. He should not undertake to examine this principle, nor deny that such facts might exist. It would be enough to look at existing circumstances in our country, and see how far they would apply. Our Government, he said, rested on public sentiment for support, and must always be regulated by it. He was willing, he said, to go all lengths with gentlemen in adopting a system of taxation calculated to raise a permanent revenue. Nor was he apprehensive for the result, when dictated by reason and justice.
Contemptible must be that state of Government, said Mr. B., where its public officers are starved for want of a proper spirit in the people to support them. Is America, said he, arrived at this melancholy state? If she were, God forbid she should ever experience another revolution! Is this all our boasted acquisition, in return for the struggle we have made for our country? No; he denied the fact. America was not reduced to that state which will not allow her to pay the expenses of her Government, nor is she unwilling to pay them; neither is public sentiment so debased as not to approve of any measure which shall be taken to secure a handsome maintenance for our officers. There was no occasion for hypocrisy in the business; he was willing to state the whole truth plainly to his constituents. He should not think of telling them they were giving too high salaries for their officers, when he knew, that, owing to their insufficiency, they were diminishing their own private fortunes. Nor did he wish to intrench on his own property in serving the public; he believed there was no occasion for this. He should, therefore, speak plainly to them.
Mr. B. said, he would inquire whether the present salaries were a reasonable and just compensation for the services performed? In respect to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, it was said that he had already a large salary. He knew that twenty-five thousand dollars had a great sound in the ears of many, but he trusted the people of the United States not only possessed just views of Government, but that they also possessed virtue to support the just measures of Government, and would not consent that their Executive officers should be placed on such a footing as to be looked down by officers from foreign countries who moved in a lower sphere. Therefore, when they looked into the reason of the thing, and found their present salaries were unequal to their support, not in the style of splendor observed in foreign courts, but according to the manner of living in Philadelphia, would they not be willing to increase them? He believed they would.
The present PRESIDENT, he said, was a man of fortune, and never took from the Government more than would support his table, either during the war or during his Presidency. And what, he asked, did these expenses amount to? To the whole sum allowed him by law. But were they always to expect to have a PRESIDENT who would give his services to his country? Or had the PRESIDENT set a bad example, by living in a style of extravagance and splendor? He believed this was not the opinion of Americans, or that of foreign countries. If, then, the present PRESIDENT had lived upon his own fortune, and the whole of his compensation had gone to defray the expenses of his table, if this compensation was not advanced, how were future Presidents to come forward, to support the same style? They could not do it without infringing on their own fortunes. And do the citizens of the United States, he asked, wish their First Magistrate to be placed in this situation? He could not think so. He believed they meant to make ample provision for his support; and if the present provision was found inadequate, they would condemn their Representatives; they would say they did not support the dignity of their country, if they neglected to advance it.
The same observations, Mr. B. said, would apply to the VICE PRESIDENT, and to other officers of Government. He did not wish the salaries of their officers to be such as should enable them to make fortunes out of them, but he would have them sufficient to afford a handsome living. Were they so at present? He believed not. It had been said, the other day, that they could not afford to live in the same style with persons who stood on the same footing with them before they went into office. He could not say whether they were obliged to intrench on their own private fortunes; if it was so, he asked if it were reasonable or just that they should be so placed? It certainly was not; and, therefore, convinced as he was that the people of the United States were willing and able to support the expenses of their Government, and that they wished their officers to have a just and reasonable compensation, which should not only enable them to make a respectable appearance in the eyes of their own citizens, but in those of foreigners, he should have no scruples in giving his consent to the advances proposed.
As to the compensation allowed to the members of that House, here he had knowledge; he could speak from experience. He could say that he had diminished his income one thousand dollars a year since he had a seat in that House. Did his constituents, he asked, wish this? He believed not. They did not wish him to intrench on his private fortune while he was serving them. They did not expect him to squander away their money in profusion, nor did he; he lived in the most economical style; but they wished his reasonable expenses to be paid. Besides, said Mr. B., were the rates of compensation, when first established, established upon this principle? He thought not. They were then thought to be a just and reasonable compensation; and, if it was not then unreasonable, it could not now be reasonable. Was it right, he asked, when every kind of labor was higher by one third or one-half than at that time, that the compensations allowed to persons employed by Government should remain stationary? He could not conceive that this was either just or proper, or that the citizens of the United States wished it.
If any conclusion might be drawn from the practice of individual States, they would be warranted in making the proposed advance, since many of their Legislatures had advanced the pay of their members. Indeed, he believed the people were generally convinced of the necessity of advancing the compensations allowed to the officers of Government and members of the Legislature, under the present circumstances.
Mr. B. said he was not for making a permanent increase of salaries, except to the PRESIDENT and VICE PRESIDENT. He did not conceive that the members of the Legislature ought to have more than was sufficient to support them, without obliging them to infringe upon their own fortunes. He wished the advance thereof to operate no longer than until the present existing circumstances were removed; he should move, therefore, to have the duration of this regulation for one year, instead of two, as it was possible in the mean time the price of living might be so reduced as to make the additional allowance no longer necessary.
Mr. RUTHERFORD said, if gentlemen reasoned together for a moment, they would be convinced this measure was altogether improper and unjust. Our present PRESIDENT, said he, is looked up to with reverence, as to Cincinnatus, as a good republican. When the commissioners from the Republic of Holland went to treat with Spain, they went in a style of such simplicity as to command the greatest respect. They afterwards appointed a Stadtholder, a man of great reputation and patriotism doubtless, like our PRESIDENT; but, as soon as they suffered themselves to lose sight of their simplicity and plainness of manners, and got into the policy and splendor of Courts, they were enslaved by their Stadtholder; for, within these few years, the office of Stadtholder has been declared hereditary. What an extravagance is this; that a man should be born a Stadtholder or a King! While the Roman people maintained their simplicity of manners, while Cincinnatus was amongst them, they were a happy people; but when they lost sight of their plainness of manners, they lost sight of their happiness. Let us look at our sister rising Republic, and observe how they are doing away all pomp and pageantry in their Government and country, and aiming at a simplicity of manners; but, said he, I fear we have not lost sight sufficiently of kings, priests, and courts. This was his dread. It was necessary to bound these ideas. Patriotism could not be purchased, and should they despair of getting a man to fill the office of PRESIDENT without they increased the salary? Must they hire a man for this purpose? No, they should not be obliged to do this; there would always be found men of abilities and patriotism to fill that office, without any view to pecuniary advantage.
Mr. DENT said the question was to make an amendment by striking out the first section. Being in favor of that part which contemplated the addition of five thousand dollars to the salary of the PRESIDENT, and opposed to any addition to that of the VICE PRESIDENT, he wished the question divided, in order to accommodate his vote.
The Chairman said the motion was to strike out the whole section, and it could not be divided.
The motion for striking out was then put and carried--56 members being in favor of it.
Election of President.
A message was received from the Senate informing the House that the VICE PRESIDENT had laid before them the following communication:
Gentlemen of the Senate:
In consequence of the declaration made yesterday in the Chamber of the House of Representatives of the election of a President and Vice President of the United States, the record of which has just now been read from your journal by your Secretary, I have judged it proper to give notice that, on the 4th of March next, at 12 o'clock, I propose to attend again in the Chamber of the House of Representatives, in order to take the oath prescribed by the Constitution of the United States to be taken by the President, to be administered by the Chief Justice or such other Judge of the Supreme Court of the United States as can most conveniently attend; and, in case none of those Judges can attend, by the Judge of the District of Pennsylvania, before such Senators and Representatives of the United States as may find it convenient to honor the transaction with their presence.
FRIDAY, February 10.
Naval Policy: Purchase of a Site for a Navy Yard.
The next resolution which came under consideration, was that proposing the purchase of a site for a navy yard.
Mr. PARKER doubted, from the spirit which seemed to be shown on this occasion, that this resolution would not pass.
Mr. W. SMITH hoped this would be agreed to. Whatever gentlemen may now think or determine on, it was probable we should at some time become a naval power; and even with the most distant prospect of that, it would show economy to prepare for it. He said it never could be too soon to begin the business, and the most effectual method of procuring live oak, and preserving it, was to take the earliest means to obtain, and secure it, when obtained, for seasonable use. He read an extract from the Secretary of War's report in support of the plan.
Mr. COIT said he was alarmed at the expense of this business. He saw in the report the salaries of two persons already at Norfolk and Portsmouth, for taking care of the timber, at 500 dollars each, 1,000 dollars. If they were to pay at this rate for overlooking the timber for one ship, what might they expect would be the expense of a navy yard?
Mr. PARKER said, the persons to whom these salaries were paid, took care of the timber at Norfolk and Portsmouth. It was necessary that some person should look after it, or it should be disposed of; but, in case the present resolution was agreed to, there would be no occasion in future to pay these persons, as all the timber and other materials would be stored in the navy yard. He said he had received an estimate from the War Office of the expense which would be likely to attend the establishment of a navy yard. The expense of 100 acres of land, and all the necessary buildings, was estimated at 37,210 dollars.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, after having squandered so much money in getting timber for these vessels, he thought some change of habit should take place before they embarked largely in this matter. They had given twice or thrice as much as the timber was worth, yet they were now called upon to go on in the same course. It was not a time for going into this business. If such a thing was even proper, two or three years could make but little difference, and there could be little doubt but every thing could then be bought at half price. This, however, was not his principal objection. It was this: he did not want to see any such establishment; a navy would never do any real good to this country, but would increase the unhappiness of it. It would require large sums of money to support it; its benefits were doubtful, and it might be of very mischievous consequence to the nation.
Mr. SWANWICK said he entirely agreed with the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) that there was a necessity for some change of habit; they appeared to be getting that change at present, and whatever their habits were at present, he supposed they would come right at last. Whatever might be their opinion of the necessity of a naval force, the European nations, he believed, would convince them of the necessity of it, if they only gave them time enough.
It was an extraordinary thing to look at the progress of economy in that House with respect to these frigates. In the first place, six frigates were necessary; they were afterwards reduced to three, and because an officer was appointed to take care of the timber left on hand, a gentleman from Connecticut wondered that $500 should be so employed. A motion had been made to confine the Executive to finish the hulls of the ships only. This would have been a strange economy. Indeed, such attempts were made at economy on this business as were never introduced upon any other. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) had observed there was no use for ships at all. If the House were of that opinion, such a resolution had better at once be come to; but the strange sort of hesitating conduct which was adopted, exceeded all that he had heard of in legislation.
Had gentlemen who declared these vessels to be of no use, contemplated the situation of this country; that it depended wholly upon commerce for revenue; that that commerce was now put in jeopardy, and that no substitute had been found for the revenue thence arising? And would not all this hesitation, whenever the subject of a navy came under consideration, tempt European nations to continue their unjust depredations upon our property at sea? It certainly would.
But even gentlemen who wished to confine themselves merely to the finishing of the vessels at present, would not surely think it improper for them to establish a navy yard, and to secure timber for future use. Did those gentlemen consider what it was to deprive the country of a rich mine of ship timber? If they hesitated on this subject, they surely did not.
What had been said by the gentleman from Maryland on the subject of Algiers, was very just; and the want of a navy power would have a similar effect upon all our negotiations, as foreign nations would rise or fall in their demands, according to our power at sea. The money thrown away upon Algiers to purchase peace, would have been much better employed in building ships; for if we had a few ships, that power would not have committed the depredations upon us which she had done. And whether the money was paid to Algiers or expended in building ships, it was in both cases for the same purpose, viz: the protection of commerce. But there was this great difference between the two expenditures. In the one case, the dollars were shipped off to a foreign country, and in the other, they were paid to our own citizens. The iron used was from our own mines; the guns from our own manufactories; the hemp, and every other material, were of our own growth and manufacture, so that the money went into the hands of our artisans, manufacturers, and farmers. And, therefore, though the frigates had cost a great deal of money, it was some modification of the expense to consider that the money was gone into the pockets of our own citizens. But, he asked if the loss we sustained for the want of a naval power could be estimated? He said it could not. We not only lost our property, but our seamen, and they were not only lost to us, but were probably in the service of those countries which were committing depredations upon us. The loss of property might be recovered; but a hardy race of seamen once lost, could not be recovered.
What an affecting spectacle had we the other day of sixty of these unfortunate men returning from Algerine slavery? They were received into the arms of their country with all the sympathy which the occasion called for; but could gentlemen help feeling, at the same time, for the impotence of our Government, when they recollected that the liberty of these men had been purchased at a very high price from a petty despot? And shall we continue to go on thus, and encourage the Barbary powers to enslave our seamen by showing so great a reluctance to enter upon any measure which might afford a defence against their depredations?
Mr. MURRAY believed it would be a very prudent measure to secure the ship-timber in question; for if we did not, it was probable some foreign nation would get possession of it. He did not know whether the laws of Georgia would permit foreigners to purchase the land upon which this timber grew; but if they would not, it would be no difficult thing to get possession of it through the medium of an individual. If this country were to become a maritime power, and no one who considered the subject for a moment could doubt it, this was too rich a mine to be neglected. What had been said about adopting the Chinese policy, might serve to amuse them; but when they looked at the commerce of the country, it was impossible they should not see the necessity of a naval force to protect that commerce against the depredations of any nation who chose to attack it. Indeed, it was come to this, they must either provide for the protection of commerce, or deny the utility of it, and give it up altogether.
But the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. NICHOLAS) was afraid if these frigates were sent out to sea, they would involve us in a war. What! said he, can it be supposed that three frigates would give us that ridiculous kind of spirit which would induce us at any rate to go to war? This would be a species of insanity which he did not think it was probable we should fall into. No: these vessels would serve to protect our coasts, and preserve our commerce from attacks, at least, within a small distance from our own ports. How far they might serve to render us of some importance in the eyes of foreign nations, he could not tell; but he believed that three frigates would have a greater effect in this respect with us, than ten to Sweden, Denmark, or Holland. We lie, said he, near the high road of commerce to the West Indies, and these three frigates, backed by national wealth, would show a disposition to become a maritime power, and would have their effect upon European nations.
Besides, Mr. M. said, these vessels would be the foundation of a future Navy. He was for shaping our means of defence to the means of offence employed against us by other nations; for until the European nations became wise enough to cease from war, it was necessary to provide means of defence against their attacks. He should, therefore, always give his support to every means of national defence. He wished our nation to stand upon a respectable footing as a nation, since the most magnanimous conduct was no security against the attacks of foreign powers. He should, therefore, be in favor of a naval yard, and of providing ship-timber for future use.
Mr. HARPER said, the two resolutions respecting a naval yard and a provision for timber should come under consideration together; because, if no provision was made for purchasing timber, a naval yard would be of no use.
This question, he said, was capable of being considered under two points of view: the one whether the measure was proper; the other, if the measure was proper, whether it would not be better postponed for the present. Both of these points required a considerable degree of attention. There was a variety of considerations on both sides of the question, and it remained for them to determine for the best.
Was it proper for this country, he asked, to turn its attention towards marine strength? Did not our situation, and the circumstances in which we stand, compel us to turn our attention to this object? He thought they did, and for one or two reasons which he would submit to the consideration of the committee.
It appeared to him out of the question that any kind of commerce should be continued without some ships-of-war to protect it. This was the dilemma in which we were placed. It was said by some gentlemen that this dilemma might be avoided, by suffering commerce to go on unprotected, and subject it to all risks; and that even then, there would be sufficient benefit arising from it, to induce its continuance. This he did not believe. If persons engaged in commerce could have no dependence upon the protection of Government, a very few years, perhaps a few months more, might convince them that the business could not and ought not to be continued.
The present Government, he said, had only been in existence eight years, and for nearly four of them commerce had been subject to every kind of depredation. The usual calculation with respect to Europe was, that during every ten years, it would be subject to war, and that these wars would have a duration of from six to eight years, in the course of which our property and citizens would be subject to the same violations and injuries which they had for the last four years experienced, if no provision was made, by a naval power, to prevent it.
Brought to this dilemma, said he, which side will you take? Will you give up commerce, or build a Navy to protect it? Besides, he said, a great part of our citizens who had been trained up in commerce from their infancy, could not be driven from that kind of employment to which they had always been accustomed. They could not be induced, like the Chinese, to stay at home; they would be engaged in commerce, their favorite pursuit. If they, then, were compelled to protect commerce, he asked if there was any other way of doing it than by a Navy? He believed not. Treaties afford a feeble and very inadequate protection; they were broken whenever it suited the interest of a nation to break them. Letters of marque might afford some protection; but this would operate as a heavier tax upon the people than even the support of the Navy. The money which a merchant expended in this way would eventually come upon the people in the price which they would be obliged to pay for their merchandise, and the means would be very inadequate to protection.
In China and the East Indies, Mr. H. said, the inhabitants could shut themselves up within their own territory, and avoid any intercourse with foreign nations. In countries so far removed from Europe, as to prevent any one nation from making a monopoly, of its trade, this policy might exist. But could America lay up her ships, and say she would open her ports to all nations? No; that very instant you give up your trade to that nation which has the greatest power at sea; for she will immediately block up your ports, and oblige you to trade with them only. In order, therefore, to trade with all nations, we must be the carriers of our own produce, for other nations would not leave us at liberty to do so. The strongest power would say to the others, you shall not trade with these people, you shall do so and so, or we will go to war with you. You must, therefore, said he, protect your own trade.
Will these resolutions, then, said he, if adopted, tend to this point? He believed they would. To provide a dock-yard, and to take care of a supply of timber suitable for the purpose of ship-building, were very essential steps. Much expense, he said, would be saved in carrying on the building of several ships together in one yard, instead of having them scattered in different parts of the Union. Timber might also be laid up to season in this yard, so as always to be ready for use; for, he believed that much of the delay which had attended the building of the ships now on the stocks, had been owing to the difficulty which had attended the procuring of proper timber. Besides, Mr. H. said, its being known to foreign nations, that you had provided a dock-yard, would have some weight; it would at least have the appearance of an intention of building a Navy.
With respect to the purchasing of land clothed with live oak timber, he thought it a very desirable measure. It was well known that this timber was confined to a few spots--a few sea islands on the coast of South Carolina and Georgia, and some small strips along the seashore; and in each of these places there were only a few trees of a sufficient size for building large ships. The land upon which these trees grew, since the cultivation of cotton had been introduced into those parts, was become valuable land for that purpose. This induced the people to cut down the timber and burn it, for the sake of getting the land, and there was no way of arresting this practice, but by securing the land; and being of so good a quality, when the trees were cut down, it would probably sell for a greater price than was originally given for it.
Mr. GALLATIN saw no connection between the two resolutions, which the gentleman who had just sat down thought it necessary to connect together. The last resolution proposed the purchase of land clothed with live oak; the present proposed the appropriation of a sum of money for purchasing the site of a naval yard, &c., as a foundation for a Navy. The last went only to the securing of timber for the building of a Navy, if at any day it should be thought necessary; he believed he should vote for the last, but certainly against the first.
They had been told that no commerce could exist without protection, and that that protection must be a Navy; from whence it would follow, that if a Navy was necessary to protect commerce, it must be a Navy competent to vie with the navies of other nations. He would here ask, how gentlemen drew their conclusion, that commerce could not exist without the protection of a Navy. He wished they would show from the example of any nation in Europe, or from our own example, that commerce and navies had gone hand in hand. There was no nation, except Great Britain, said he, whose Navy had any connection with commerce. No nation, except England and Holland, had more to do with commerce than this country, and yet we had no Navy; and though for the four last years this commerce had been subject to continual depredations, it was not exceeded by any nation, except the two he had named. And if they looked to Europe, they would find there was no connection between navies and commerce. Russia and Sweden had considerable navies, but little commerce; whilst Holland, whose Navy was by no means large, ranked next to England with respect to commerce. Hamburg, he said, was one of the first commercial States in Europe, yet she had no Navy. Navies, he said, were the instruments of power, more calculated to annoy the trade of other nations than to protect that of the nation to which they belong.
But there was another position which he should take in opposition to gentlemen who supported the creation of a Navy, viz: that however useful or desirable a Navy might be, this country was not equal to the support of one. We might have two or three frigates indeed, but, when he said we could not support a Navy, he meant to say we could not support such a Navy as should claim respect, in the sense which those gentlemen spoke of it; such as being an object of terror to foreign nations. If they calculated what the three frigates had cost, considered the scanty manner in which this country was peopled, our inability to raise any very large revenue, and the high price of labor, the truth of this assertion would appear evident.
Again, if such a Navy were created, how was it to be manned? He wished gentlemen to point out any mode in which a Navy could be manned in this country without having recourse to the abominable practice of impressment. If the nations of Europe found it impossible to man their fleets without having recourse to these violent means, he believed it would be impossible, without breaking down those barriers which secured the liberty of every citizen, to man a Navy in this country.
Perhaps he might be asked, if we were, then, to be left without protection? He thought there were means of protection which arose from our peculiar situation, and that we ought not to borrow institutions from other nations for which we were not fit. If our commerce had increased, notwithstanding its want of protection; if we had a greater number of seamen than any other nation, except England, this, he thought, pointed out the way in which commerce ought to be protected. The fact was, that our only mode of warfare against European nations at sea, was by putting our seamen on board privateers, and covering the sea with them; these would annoy their trade, and distress them more than any other mode of defence we could adopt.[10]
MONDAY, February 13.
Purchase of Live Oak Lands.
Mr. HARPER said, that though the House had declined coming to a resolution to authorize the PRESIDENT to purchase certain lands in Georgia, clothed with live oak and red cedar timber, as a reserve for future naval purposes, yet there seemed to be a disposition to cause an inquiry to be made on the subject. He therefore proposed a resolution to the House to the following effect:
"Resolved, That the President of the United States be authorized and requested to cause to be made and reported to this House as early as may be after the meeting of the next session of Congress, an inspection of lands furnished with live oak and red cedar timber, with the relative advantages of different situations with respect to their fitness for naval purposes, and the rates at which purchases may be made."
Ordered to lie on the table.
John de Neufville.
On motion of Mr. MADISON, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the following report of the committee, to whom was referred the memorial of Anna de Neufville, widow of John de Neufville, deceased. They report--
"That the services and sacrifices of the said John de Neufville to the United States, during the war of their Revolution, as stated in the said memorial, and vouched by the testimonies herewith reported, constitute a reasonable claim, in behalf of his, at present, very distressed widow and children, on the justice of the United States. That it being impossible, from various and peculiar circumstances incident to the services rendered, to ascertain and liquidate the compensation due into a precise sum, it is necessary for Congress to decide on and provide for such allowance as may be deemed equitable and right. That, in the opinion of the committee, the sum of three thousand dollars may be a proper allowance. They therefore propose the following resolution:
"Resolved, That provision ought to be made, by law, for granting to the widow and two children of John de Neufville, the sum of three thousand dollars, to be equally divided among them."
This report was advocated by Messrs. HARPER, W. SMITH, SWANWICK, HAVENS, HEATH, THATCHER, VARNUM, and RUTHERFORD. They stated that the husband of the petitioner, John de Neufville, was an eminent merchant at Amsterdam; that he was an influential character there, and, at an early period of our Revolutionary war, entered with great zeal into the interests of America; that, meeting with Mr. William Lee, the Commissioner of the United States, he endeavored to bring about a treaty between the United Netherlands and the United States, which being discovered by the British, that Court used its influence with the Government of that country to harass and drive him out of the country; that during his residence at Amsterdam, his house was a constant asylum for American citizens; that he had made large advances in money for the service of the United States, which obliged him to extend his credit beyond what was warranted by the regular course of trade, and a failure in the payment of which (owing to the embarrassed circumstances of the United States at that time) had greatly injured him, and left him to the mercy of his creditors. The consequence was, he was reduced from affluence to poverty at an advanced period of life. Some years ago he arrived at Boston with his wife and two children, where he subsisted in a very humble manner upon the bounty of his friends in Holland; those friends having, by the reverses occasioned by the Revolution, been much injured in their property, could afford him but a scanty pittance; but Mr. de Neufville being dead, the petitioner was deprived of this assistance; and, to add to her repeated misfortunes, the son of her late husband, from their multiplied sufferings, had been deprived of his reason. Under this pressure of grievances, the petitioner was come from Boston to lay her case before Congress, and pray relief. This peculiarly distressing case was supported with great zeal and feeling by its advocates, particularly by Mr. HARPER.
The claim was opposed by Messrs. COIT, SWIFT, and NICHOLAS. An application, it seems, was made by Mr. de Neufville, during his life-time, for redress; upon which the then Secretary of State (Mr. JEFFERSON) reported. This report, after stating all the facts upon which the claim was founded, gave it as his opinion, that the petitioner had no real claim on the United States. This report, it seems, had never been acted upon. The reading of it, as well as of all the documents relative to this claim, was called for, and they were accordingly read. The opposers of this claim acknowledged the distressed situation of the petitioner, but denied the justice of her claim upon the United States; the treaty which Mr. de Neufville proposed to enter into with Mr. Lee, they supposed, was a treaty which he believed would prove beneficial to his country, and not to the United States: that there were many claims in our own country from persons who had been injured by the war, the justice of which was less equivocal, and the distress at least equal. Mr. NICHOLAS said, a few days ago only, a poor man, whose health had been so much impaired in the war, that he was unable to earn his living, had applied to him to bring his case before Congress, yet, as the pension law affords no relief to any person, except he had been wounded, he was obliged to inform him that he could do nothing for him. There were multitudes of such instances, equally distressing with the present, to which no relief could be afforded.
Mr. THATCHER moved to have the three thousand dollars struck out, and five inserted. This was negatived--45 to 37; but the resolution was agreed to as reported--yeas 63, nays 25.
THURSDAY, February 16.
John C. Symmes.
Mr. GALLATIN said, a report had been made upon the contract between John C. Symmes and his associates, and the United States, which it was of importance to pass into a law this session, as the object was four hundred thousand acres of land, which was worth about eight hundred thousand dollars.
The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, when the report, which was very long, having been read, the committee agreed to the resolution reported, which was in the following words:
"Resolved, That a committee be appointed to bring in a bill to authorize the President of the United States to grant, in fee simple, to John C. Symmes and his associates, that part of a tract of land, the boundaries whereof are ascertained by a survey executed in conformity to the act of Congress, entitled 'An act for ascertaining the bounds of a tract of land purchased by J. C. Symmes,' and returned to the Treasury Department the 10th of January, 1794, which is not included within the bounds of a grant already made, on September 8, 1794, to the said J. C. Symmes and his associates; excepting and reserving out of the same the lots reserved by the original contract, entered into between the United States and the said Symmes and his associates; provided that the said Symmes and his associates shall previously, in conformity to the terms of the original contract, make the requisite payment for the tract to be granted to them, and for the 47,625 acres, part of the grant already made to them on the 30th September, 1794, for which they have not yet paid any consideration; and provided, also, that the township reserved for an Academy shall have been previously laid off and secured, according to the terms of the contract, and of the resolutions and law of Congress relative thereto."
FRIDAY, February 17.
Increase of Duties.
BROWN SUGAR.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the proposed increase, it was calculated, would raise 110,000 dollars, and as the article was not liable to be smuggled, nor its consumption to be decreased, it would be a certain, and he thought, an eligible tax.
Mr. HOLLAND had no doubt but this tax would augment the revenue; but he knew also that it would fall more upon the poor than upon the rich, and he thought they ought not to add to their burdens. He thought there were other articles which would bear some addition, but either brown sugar or salt would be much felt. If they studied that which would be burdensome, here they might fix, but he hoped this was not the principle. By advancing an article so universally used, a rise of labor (already too high) must naturally follow.
Mr. KITCHELL believed the rich and opulent would bear their portion of this tax as well as the poor, as it would fall upon fine sugar as well as upon brown. It would therefore be paid in proportion to the sugar used, and would fall as equally as any other tax which could be laid.
In this instance, Mr. K. said, gentlemen seemed apprehensive of the poor bearing too great a part of the burden; but, if the direct tax on land were to take place, would it not, he asked, fall much heavier upon the poor than a tax on sugar? He believed it would; since the poor who held lands would be called upon to pay their portion of it, whilst the rich who held no lands, would escape it. He, therefore, thought this a far preferable tax.
Mr. DEARBORN said, if further revenue was necessary, he could not conceive any article which would bear an advance of duty better than the one proposed. The present duty, he said, was one and a half cent a pound, and could it be supposed that to lay an additional half cent upon it, could make much difference to the consumer, or that it would ever be felt, or that, at the end of a year, it would be discovered whether one and a half or two cents duty had been paid upon a pound of sugar? He should have no objection, instead of half a cent, to lay an additional cent upon this article. In various parts of the country, brown sugar was retailed at from 12 to 20 cents a pound, the price being much increased from the present distressed situation of the West Indies. But they would find sugar of the same quality selling in one place for 12, in another for 14 or 16 cents; therefore, whether the duty was one or two cents, he did not think it would be felt by any body. It was true, that it was an article used by the middling and lower classes of the people; but the tax falling upon fine as well as brown sugar, all parts of the community would bear an equal share in the burden.
Mr. WILLIAMS moved to strike out the half cent, and insert a cent. It appeared to him that such an advance could not materially affect the consumer. The people, it was true, might use less; but, if they did so, as it was an article of luxury, every pound of sugar less which was consumed, would be of benefit to the country, by keeping the money which it cost in a foreign market at home. But he did not believe that this would be the case; or that the proposed additional duty would increase the price of labor, as had been suggested. He believed the price of labor would be regulated by the price which the farmer was enabled to get for his produce. Whatever the farmer could afford to give his laborer (especially in this country where agriculture is the true interest) would fix the price of all other labor.
Mr. HOLLAND said, perhaps the constituents of the gentleman last up might manufacture their own sugar, and therefore would not be affected by this tax; but the greater part of his constituents were obliged to use and purchase their sugar; and if it were a luxury, it was one he did not wish to deprive them of, but that they might have it upon the same terms as usual. He looked upon it as a necessary of life, already at too high a price, and he should, therefore, oppose any advance of duty upon it.
Mr. GALLATIN said, he and his constituents were in the same situation with the gentleman from New York (Mr. WILLIAMS) and his constituents. They manufactured almost the whole of their own sugar; very little imported sugar was used; indeed, they sometimes exported sugar; but though this reason seemed to act pretty powerfully upon the gentleman from New York, it would not have the same effect upon him. Whenever a measure operated partially upon other parts of the Union, though it might operate in favor of his constituents, he should feel himself in duty bound to oppose it. On the ground of their being Representatives of the whole Union, as well as on the ground of policy, he did not believe it was right to endeavor to throw a burden upon one part of the Union, because the part in which they were most particularly interested, would escape it. He hoped the amendment would be rejected, and after the sense of the committee should have been taken upon it, he also would move an amendment. At present, brown sugar paid one and a half cent a pound duty, and molasses three cents per gallon. He should, therefore, move to have an additional cent laid upon molasses, in order that the two articles might be increased in the same proportion. He was against any increase at present; but if the duty on one article was increased, the other ought also to be increased.
Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that he had said the people in the part of the country from whence he came, made their own sugar during the war; if they were to make it now, it would cost them more than double the price at which they might purchase it. He said, when the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) found the land tax was not likely to pass, he wished to defeat every proposition for an indirect tax. He had attempted, therefore, to defeat an additional tax on sugar, by proposing to add molasses to the resolution. He did not think this fair; he wished every proposition to stand upon its own ground. A few days ago that gentleman had insisted upon the necessity of laying a direct tax; but now he came forward, and said no additional revenue was wanting. He wished not to have a compulsory tax, but a tax which persons might pay or not. If they did not like to pay the tax on sugar, they might do without it.
Mr. COOPER said he was against any additional duty on salt or sugar, though he and his constituents (as well as his colleague and his constituents) should bear no part of the burden, as they made not only sufficient for themselves, but for sale. Indeed, he said, a duty on salt exported out of the United States, would produce revenue, as a considerable quantity was sent into Upper Canada.
Mr. WILLIAMS denied that his constituents made any salt; they had no salt but what paid duty; nor did his constituents make one-fourth of the sugar they used; nor did he believe his colleague's (Mr. COOPER's) constituents made one-half of the sugar they used, as he well knew that a large quantity of sugar was sent to that district by way of Albany.
Mr. READ hoped the amendment would obtain. Although such persons as lived at a distance from market manufactured their own sugar, and consequently would be excused from this duty, yet they labored under many disadvantages in other respects, on account of their remoteness from market, and therefore he had no objection to their being excused from the operation of this tax. He did not believe this tax on sugar would fall upon poor persons. Farmers, indeed, used a little brown sugar, but they would rather pay a little more for this article than have their land taxed.
Mr. CLAIBORNE was against the amendment. If an additional duty of one cent was laid upon brown sugar, the different dealers would make it three or four, so that it would be materially felt.
Mr. GALLATIN then moved to amend the resolution, by adding an additional cent per gallon upon molasses. At present the duty on brown sugar was one and a half cent per pound, and on molasses three cents per gallon. The advance of 33 per cent. on the present duty would be the same that had been agreed to be laid upon sugar.
Mr. SWANWICK seconded the motion. The only way in which the tax on brown sugar could be secured was by advancing the duty on molasses in the same proportion, otherwise molasses would be used in the place of sugar, and the duty would be evaded. But he would have gentlemen consider in what situation they placed the revenue in respect to drawbacks. The person who paid the duty was probably not the same who drew the drawback on exportation; the United States run the risk, therefore, of paying the drawback, without receiving the duty. Though he thought the tax on sugar highly objectionable, yet if it were adopted, he thought it right that it should be accompanied by a proportionate tax on molasses as a security to the duty being paid. One cent a pound on sugar, it was said, was a trifle; but it was well known that the price of that article was at present very exorbitant, from the disorders which had taken place in the West Indies.
Mr. NICKOLAS hoped the amendment would be agreed to. His principal objection to a tax on sugar was, because, having been successful in making one addition, it would be an argument for making future ones, but if molasses was added to it, the tax would then fall more equally on the poor of different parts of the Union, and be a means of keeping down the tax.
Mr. BUCK said, if he thought the advocates of this amendment would vote for the resolution when amended, he might be induced to vote for it; but he believed they did not mean to do so. If an increase of the duty on brown sugar would fall upon the poorer class of the people, an additional duty on molasses would fall much heavier upon them. But he thought gentlemen were mistaken with respect to the operation of the tax on brown sugar; in the country it would not fall upon the poor, though in the cities it might do so; though in increasing the duty on brown sugar, that on fine was also increased. In the country it was the rich who used brown sugar; they had not got to that pitch of refinement which called for the use of fine sugar; they used brown sugar, and the poor used none; they sweetened with molasses. Notwithstanding this, if he thought gentlemen meant to vote for the resolution when amended, he would not object to the addition on molasses, as he did not think so small an advance would be materially felt.
Mr. RUTHERFORD hoped they should not agree to lay an additional duty on either of these necessaries of life. He hoped there was sufficient good sense in the House to oppose such a measure. They were used by all classes, from the infant to the stoutest man; particularly by many poor, infirm, aged persons, who looked upon them as nutritious and balmy nourishments. He hoped, therefore, they would not increase the price of those articles; for, if an additional cent was added, the dealers would add two, three, or four cents, which would be more than the poor could afford to pay for them.
Mr. CHRISTIE believed the gentleman from Pennsylvania meant, by the introduction of this amendment, to defeat the tax on sugar altogether; he should, therefore, vote against this amendment; but if the additional tax on sugar should be carried, and the additional tax on molasses should be introduced alone, he would vote for it, but he would not vote for them together. He did not think the tax on sugar would fall upon the poor, particularly as fine sugar would be taxed equally with the brown. He thought it was a fair object of taxation. He believed they should want revenue, and he did not know an article from which it could be better raised.
Mr. FINDLAY was at a loss to know how a tax on molasses would operate; but his doubts had been removed by the gentleman from Vermont, (Mr. BUCK,) who had informed them it was used by the poor in place of brown sugar. In many parts of Pennsylvania molasses was scarcely known, and brown sugar was generally used by the poor; if, therefore, the same class of persons in one part of the country used molasses for the same purpose for which brown sugar was used in other parts, it was only reasonable that both should be taxed in the same proportion.
His colleague (Mr. GALLATIN) had mentioned that his constituents would not pay any of this tax, as they made their own sugar. It was so with a part of his constituents, but not with the whole. As it would be unjust to pass one tax without the other, he should be in favor of the amendment.
Mr. GALLATIN said, it had been charged against him, that he had introduced his amendment with a view to defeat the tax on sugar. He had already said that he did not wish for any indirect tax during the present session; but, at the same time, he considered it his duty, if a majority should choose to pass the resolution, to make it as good as possible before he voted against it, for this purpose he had introduced his amendment. Whenever the duty on sugar was increased, that on molasses should also be increased. With respect to what had been said about the duty on brown sugar not falling upon the poor, it was contradicted by the quantity every year imported into the United States. When they knew that this amounted to twenty-two millions of pounds weight, they must conclude that it was used by the poor as well as the rich; for though the Eastern States used a great deal of molasses, it was not the case in the Middle, Southern, and Western States; all classes of citizens in those States used sugar. The voting for the amendment now was the same as voting for it in any other shape. It was doing now what would be done hereafter, if now omitted. There was nothing informal in it. He saw no reason which could be urged for one taking place, which would not equally hold with respect to the other.
Mr. SWANWICK thought that those gentlemen who separated the articles of sugar and molasses, would wish to defeat the object; thus it was with the gentleman last up. This was introduced with a view of securing the collection. Mr. S. said he had before stated the injury the United States might sustain in case of a failure of pay from the imported, and need not repeat that he objected in toto to the tax.
Mr. BUCK asked if, when on the question on the resolution, (if, adopted,) a separate vote could be given? He was answered no. Then he would observe to the gentleman that, if it could not be separated, he hoped it would not be introduced, it having been said the duty on sugar would operate on the poor; now, he said, here was an article introduced with it that would operate worse than the other; therefore, he should oppose both, if put together, when, if separated, he should have voted for the tax on molasses alone, as sugar was a great means of sustenance and use.
The Chairman again remarked (in reference to what had fallen from Mr. W. SMITH) that the amendment was in order, though he did not think it the most fair way of introducing the subject.
Mr. GALLATIN conceived that he was the best judge of the fairness of his proceedings; and as the Chairman had declared the amendment to be in order, he expected a question would be taken upon it.
Mr. NICHOLAS begged leave to differ in opinion from the Chair in this instance, though he must own much deference was due to it: he thought the proceedings perfectly fair. Mr. N. would vote for this, in order to have the two connected; that gentleman could now vote against the addition of molasses, then he would have an opportunity to vote on sugar alone. He should wish it extended to both alike. The gentleman (Mr. BUCK) was mistaken in his application on this subject; it was not taxing the sustenance of the poor in one article more than another, for the sugar would most affect one part, yet molasses would as much affect another; he, therefore, hoped, if gentlemen wished fair and equal taxation, that this association would take place; this equalization would go to prevent any opposition to the tax, which would otherwise be hazarded.
Mr. BUCK was satisfied with this explanation; therefore, supposing gentlemen who supported the amendment would vote for both, according to this modification, he should go with them; if not, he should oppose the amendment.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) said, he did not rise to speak to the point of order; he considered that as already settled by the Chairman. Every member, he said, against laying an additional tax upon molasses, would, of course, vote against the amendment; and all those who had no objection to the tax, but who did not wish it to be thus introduced, of whom he found there was not a few, might join them, as, after the additional tax on sugar was agreed to, that on molasses might be again introduced.
Mr. S. SMITH said, he had some doubt before the last gentleman was up, of the propriety of tacking these two articles together, but now he had none. One part of the Union, he supposed, would be for voting out molasses: but his constituents would not like the tax on sugar, except it was accompanied with that on molasses; as a subject of sweetening he thought they should both go together. Mr. S. said, he had another article of sweetening, which he wished also to add to the resolution: great quantities of sugar-candy were manufactured in Holland and sent all over Germany; it was used with tea and coffee, in the place of sugar. This article, he said, was finding its way among the Germans in this country. At present it only paid a duty of 10 per cent. ad valorem, which was a very inadequate duty, when compared with that paid on sugar. Mr. S. said, he was against going into the subject of indirect taxes, but he thought with the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) that it was his duty to make the resolution as good as he could. Nothing had been said to prove that we had not revenue enough for the present; but he would, however, move to add nine cents a pound upon sugar-candy imported.
Mr. S. said, he agreed with the Secretary of the Treasury, that sugar was amongst the most proper articles upon which to lay an additional impost; but he wished for some permanent source of revenue, and not adopt the trifling modes proposed. Gentlemen talked of deceiving the people; he said they could not be deceived; they would know there were two parties in that House, the one for direct, the other for indirect taxes. Those gentlemen who were opposed to direct taxes brought forward these articles in place of it. The people need not be told this; they saw it evidently enough.
Mr. HOLLAND said, though he was opposed to direct taxes, he was also on sugar and molasses; he saw all the disadvantages of some other gentlemen on taxing West India produce at this critical juncture; but if it must pass, he should think it his duty to endeavor to make it pass as unexceptionably as possible; however, he should oppose both, and though it affected his constituents differently from those of Vermont, yet he should not include them as necessarily connected. Mr. H. thought if these were opposed, there might be many articles more proper to lay a tax on; but he thought there was no necessity for any this session.
The question for adding one cent per gallon on molasses was then put and carried.
Mr. S. SMITH then moved that nine cents per pound be laid on sugar-candy imported, observing that it was much used by the Dutch, and there being much sweetening in it, it should bear a proportionate duty.
Mr. W. SMITH wished the gentleman to be candid on the motive of his proposition.
Mr. S. SMITH answered, that his conduct with respect to the subject had always been fair and unequivocal; he wished the whole proposition to be defeated, which he had before declared, but, to make it equal and consistent, he proposed the addition.
It was then put and carried.
The question was put on the whole resolution, as amended, and carried--yeas 52.
FRIDAY, February 17
Increase of Duties.
SALT.
Mr. HARPER then proposed that an additional duty of five cents per bushel should he laid upon all salt imported in the United States. [Mr. H. read the letter of the Secretary, wherein he mentions salt as being at a much lower rate of duty than in other countries, and that no tax laid upon it could be evaded, from its necessity and bulk.] Mr. H. added, as, in his opinion, satisfactory answers had been given to the objections which had been urged against this tax, it was not necessary to say more on the subject.
Mr. GALLATIN said the arguments of the Secretary of the Treasury were excellent fiscal arguments, and went to say, "provided we can get money, no matter how." He says salt cannot be smuggled; that we know: whether the duty was increased, or remain as it was, the people must consume the same. This was true, and the same arguments might be used for taxing the light or the water. Of all the necessaries of life, a duty was most easily collected upon salt; and this was the reason which had induced other countries to tax it so heavily; and yet this was used as an argument for increasing the duty here; but he was not one of those who felt any consolation, upon such an increase of duty, that there were other countries where the duty was yet higher.
Mr. G. said, as to any satisfactory answers which had been given to the objections to this tax, he had not heard them; he believed they had not been answered at all; except, indeed, sullen silence might be deemed satisfactory answers; if it were, they had indeed been answered satisfactorily.
Mr. G. here repeated the objections to the tax which he had made on a former occasion, viz: that it would operate as a poll-tax; that it would fall partially on some districts of country, and upon some classes of citizens more than others. He said salt in that part of the country from which he came was already upwards of four dollars a bushel, and that it would be therefore oppressive to increase the evil, by adding fresh duties upon it.
Mr. NICHOLAS said a tax on salt was equally objectionable, whether it was considered as a poll-tax, or as a tax upon agriculture. As a poll-tax, every one would see the injustice of charging all men alike with a tax, without respect to their ability to pay it; as a tax upon agriculture, he was able to say something from experience. He was willing to give all the authority to the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury which he could wish, but he could not yield his opinion to him. He knew that agriculture was at present very much depressed by the high price of salt; he had himself refrained from the use of it, by its dearness, though he believed his cattle had been the worse for it. The poorer class of citizens in the part of the country from which he came were generally owners of cattle, and employed themselves in taking care of them. These men found it at present as much as they could do to make a comfortable living, and any additional tax on salt would be very ill received by them. He was satisfied that it was a tax which would operate with great inequality; it was a tax upon one kind of employment--upon an employment which was generally pursued by the poorer classes, and consequently least able to pay it. It might be said, five cents a bushel was a trifle; but he said he objected to it from the principle of taking money where it could be got, as, if five cents were now to be added, the same argument would hold for adding another and another five on a future day.
Mr. HOLLAND was opposed to the amendment; he said no article which could be mentioned would bear a greater augmentation than salt; indeed the whole revenue of the United States might be raised from it, because it must be used by every person; but that was no reason why the whole burden should be laid on it. In North Carolina, Mr. H. said, it was four dollars per bushel, which was sufficiently high without adding to the price, and was always a cash article, and difficult to be had for that. It being an article of absolute necessity, the rich would not pay more, if so much, as the poor.
Mr. RUTHERFORD said, he was against this tax for two reasons; the first was on account of its inequality, and the next on account of its odiousness. A tax on salt, he said, was almost like taxing the common air. Farmers were obliged to use large quantities of it for their stock; it rendered them docile and easy to be managed. Indeed it could not be done without; a person was nothing without salt. The price at present was enormous on the frontier, and this duty would add prodigiously to it; for this reason he should give it his flat opposition.
Mr. FINDLAY said, because salt was necessary, and because it could not be smuggled, would not surely be sufficient arguments for increasing the duty upon it. The law of reason, he said, was the law of justice. Mr. F. gave an account of the progress of this tax. His colleague (Mr. GALLATIN) must have been mistaken as to the price which this article bore in the Western country. He had himself lately paid six guineas for six bushels of salt. Indeed this was considered as the greatest inconvenience in that part of the country, and they could not at present be relieved from it. Providence, who generally bestowed the necessaries of life in a very general manner, had not provided them with salt. And shall we, for this reason, monopolize a revenue upon it? For the same reason would hold good for paying the whole upon it as a part. He trusted they would not be so unjust to the people of that country.
Mr. HARPER said, after all the time which had been taken up in discussing this subject, he would not occupy the attention of the committee longer than while he made one or two remarks.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) had said that no answer had been given to his objections against an additional tax on salt. He should not enter into a dispute with that gentleman upon what might be deemed an answer; but he believed many members of that House would remember that an answer was given, and probably they might also think it a satisfactory one; at least it was so to one person. The objections brought against this tax would be well-founded, if the whole revenue was proposed to be raised from it; or if it were intended as a substitute for a land tax, or any other great object; if two or three millions were wanted from it, then it might be objected to upon good ground; but when one hundred thousand dollars only were proposed to be drawn from this source, he did not think the objections would hold. Admitting, said Mr. H., that there was some inequality in the operation of this tax, those persons upon whom it fell heaviest were exonerated from many other taxes which other parts of the country had to pay. They had, for instance, just agreed to increase the duty upon a certain species of cotton goods, of which they would not purchase a single yard. The present revenue was six millions four hundred thousand dollars, of which salt pays near three hundred thousand dollars. The people on the frontier, who pay for salt, are in a great measure exempt from other articles taxed; they purchased neither foreign wines nor spirits, high priced dresses nor furniture; all they wanted was corduroys, &c., which was very unfrequent. If five cents per bushel was laid on salt, those persons would have about a dollar a year more to pay, and nine-tenths not half a dollar. What could be more easy? Indeed, except the people were told of the duty they would not know it, as its effects would be so trifling.
With respect to the price of salt at Fort Pitt, as a gentleman had observed, it might be high, but was this occasioned by a duty? No, but by the situation of the country. Ought they not, then, he asked, to devise some species of tax by which to draw some part of the revenue from the inhabitants of the back country? He thought so far from this being wrong, that justice required it. This subject did not address the understanding, but the sensibility of the House, or perhaps the sensibility of those out of the House.
The objections against the tax which had been urged, he thought, ought not to have any weight, since it would operate with the greatest equality upon the whole, and there would be safety, propriety, and justice, in making the augmentation in question. Suppose two cents were put, instead of five; this would raise a good sum, and be very easy.
Mr. S. SMITH moved that the committee rise; which was negatived--there being only twenty-five in favor of it.
Mr. W. SMITH said the question had best be taken on blank cents, then five, four, or any number of cents could afterwards be added.
The question was then put, and lost--yeas 41, nays 48.
SATURDAY, February 18.
Naval Appropriation.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill granting an appropriation for finishing the three frigates, and also upon the bill repealing that part of the act which provided for the officering and manning the frigates, both having been committed to the same Committee of the Whole. That for repealing a part of the former law came first under consideration.
Mr. W. SMITH said he could not abandon the idea of our some time becoming a naval power; he very much disliked the repealing this act; in order, however, to make the bill more palatable, and to remove some of the embarrassments which the Senate would otherwise have to encounter, he would move to substitute, instead of the word "repeal," the words "suspend for ---- years."
Mr. COIT thought the very beginning of the frigates a wild notion, and hoped the most distant idea of manning them would not enter gentlemen's minds; he should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. VENABLE said, it seemed the gentleman who moved the amendment did not think it necessary the ships should now be manned. The operation of the amendment appeared to put it in the power of one branch of the Legislature, at a future day, to man the ships, and send them to sea. He was surprised at the changeableness of the gentleman who moved and favored the equipment. When a naval armament was first proposed, it was objected to, as looking like forming a Naval Establishment. They then told us it was expressly to repel the encroachments of the Algerines; and that, as soon as peace was obtained with that power, the building of them was to stop. Now they come forward, and avow a desire to have a Navy Establishment. Thus originate evils which if not stopped early, would spread and become dangerous. The only fair argument they have on the subject is, that a Navy is now become necessary. Certain it is, that, if they intend to have a Naval Establishment, to protect our commerce and repel our injuries, three frigates will be very incompetent to the object. He should not object to finishing them, and only because so much had been expended on them already, but should ever oppose fitting them for sea.
Mr. SWANWICK asked the gentleman what security there was in a peace with Algiers? Could he say we were at peace with them now? Certainly we are in a worse situation with that power now than then; we are parting with our cash, (which makes it such a scarce article,) and yet we have no benefit. Now it is said it is altogether a vision--a fancy or a dream. Then gentlemen get up and ask what we are to do with three frigates? He would answer, that so far as they went, they gave stability and protection to our commerce. True, they were not thirty frigates, but he believed, few as they were, they would save more than five times what they cost in only one year. The richest ships we have are now taken and robbed by every picaroon and pirate infesting the seas, because we have no security; and he was surprised it was not worse. He had no doubt but it would be an emolument; it would be a protection to the great revenue we enjoy. That very trade, he said, which was subject to spoliation from such petty robbers, paid into the revenue five or six millions of duty annually. If this was still permitted to be encroached on, it was an error, and it would soon be seen; and this was by a people called "free and enlightened." He had no doubt they would soon be enlightened enough to see they had done wrong. If gentlemen are against finishing these frigates, why do they not come forward and declare it? Let us sell them, said he, at public auction. What will be the effect if we have it told at our wharves that we object to man them, because we have peace with Algiers? He hoped they would be manned, or else have tacked to the bill, that, when finished, they were to be sold for East Indiamen or something. If that were gentlemen's wish, this was the time to come forward and say so, and let it be put in the bill. He would ask, Was there any thing in the name of Government, if it operated in this manner? It was extraordinary conduct, indeed.
Gentlemen say they will not vote to finish these frigates, except the repeal for manning is included. When it goes up to the Senate, may they not say they will not vote to finish, except it be to man them? But, Mr. S. said, he supposed gentlemen depended upon negotiation, if any thing was wrong. What were the consequences of our late negotiation? We have two things before us--treaty or ships. As for treaty, we have seen our money sent across the Atlantic, and scattered a thousand ways: this was throwing it into the ocean. He had heard of a Doge of Venice throwing a ring into the sea to marry it: it seemed this money was gone for the same purpose, and its use would be no better than the Doge's ring. He thought the most complete treaty was, power to resist aggression. This business of negotiation is very unprofitable. You may obtain fair promises from foreign ministers, but very poor redress, if any.
The question on the amendment was put and lost--ayes 30, noes 51.
Mr. HARRISON moved for the committee to rise and report the bill without amendments.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, it seemed that gentlemen were making a new business of this. At the time it was brought forward, gentlemen voted in favor of it, because the law was to be repealed. He voted to separate the bills, because he conceived it would not be right to say to the Senate, You shall do two things together, or neither. He hoped the committee would rise, that the House may not have such power over the business as to keep it back. If the other bill pass the Senate, said he, we can take up this, and pass it in a short time.
Mr. PARKER thought this a most extraordinary procedure, to say we will not pass the appropriation bill till we know the Senate have agreed to that for repealing. He thought the Senate had as great a right to exercise their discretion as that House. He never expected to have heard such expressions. This was holding out a dictum for their conduct: this he thought neither fair nor proper.
Mr. VENABLE thought the bills were connected. He wished to vote merely for finishing the frigates. He hoped the committee would not rise, but that it might be so amended as to add the other bill to it. When he voted for the appropriation, he said, he voted for it only in such a manner as should be reconcilable with his judgment. If the gentleman would waive his motion, and the House would so connect it, he should be gratified.
Mr. HARRISON said, as the last gentleman's ideas were fully to his purpose, he should withdraw his motion.
On motion being made for connecting the bills--
Mr. BUCK hoped it would not prevail. The only reason he saw to object, (and he thought that very forcible,) was, that it discovered a jealousy in that House of another branch of the Government, which he thought very unjustifiable. He had voted for the repeal, but should not vote for the appropriation. He thought they ought to act for themselves, without reference to the other branch. Any member may vote which way he pleased, but to say he would not vote for one without they go to the other, was unfair. He could see no justice in such a mistrust from this branch of the Legislature. Suppose, he said, the bills go to the Senate separately, they may concur in the appropriation, and reject the appeal. Even in that situation, were it to be left, the Executive could not man the frigates, unless they could obtain further appropriations--to obstruct which would be preferable, and would put it out of the power of the Senate to embarrass the House.
Mr. VENABLE said his vote was given without any relation whatever to the Senate. He thought any act passed by this House could not, when sent up to the Senate, be termed disrespectful, for each branch had a right to act for themselves. He was surprised to hear the gentleman last up say he should not vote this appropriation; for he had heard him say, on a former occasion, that he would vote an appropriation for any treaty, law, or whatever should exist to call for it. Mr. V. confessed himself to be of a very different opinion; for he always thought the House had a discretionary power to grant it or not, but that gentleman had long said it had none.
Mr. BUCK said, as his doctrines had been called in question, he must beg indulgence to explain. He never said that the House had not a right to judge on the propriety of appropriation in an existing law. He conceived a treaty quite another thing. The PRESIDENT and Senate have a constitutional power to make a treaty; in that, he said, he did advocate that that House had no right to withhold appropriations; but in laws, where the power of making appropriations rests partly in that House, they had a right to grant or withhold. This, he said, he had always held.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, this appeared to him a very unreasonable clamor in behalf of the Senate. The gentleman last up seemed very careful not to awaken the jealousy of the Senate. How could he know what part would awaken that idea of disrespect? He had formed his mind to vote on the subject, and surely every member might do so, without a fear of showing disrespect to another branch. The gentleman had said that this House may refuse to appropriate for a law. Now, suppose the Senate refuse to repeal without we appropriate, we are then forced to choose one of two evils. Very often, Mr. N. said, the House were obliged to appropriate for a law, it may be, so far executed that they could not refuse. Suppose the PRESIDENT should, after this, appoint officers to enlist men for the frigates, how could the House refuse to pay them? While a law existed to man these ships, it would be difficult to prevent it: it would enable those who were friendly to the measure to carry it into effect. He hoped, therefore, the House would not run the risk by leaving it open to such possible intrusion.
Mr. S. SMITH thought this was a very unfair way of doing business, but he had been used to such things. He thought this form of tacking was very improper and unfair. It had been observed that we were the most free and enlightened people, but he thought those who advocated these measures proved the very contrary.
Mr. SWANWICK said, it appeared to him a kind of Legislative stratagem. The whole intention of the business could be easily discovered. If there was nothing improper, why should they fear to trust the Senate with it? Having the yeas and nays on both bills, gentlemen could not easily excuse them for voting for the repeal, as it would go out into the country that many had voted contrary to their arguments. Thus we are forced to vote against our own opinion, or not have the frigates finished. He could plainly see that gentlemen meant to defeat the object, and, he thought, in a very unfair way.
Mr. W. LYMAN spoke much of the impolicy and impropriety of the measures of those gentlemen who supported naval preparations. Some time back, he said, those very gentlemen were advising us to cultivate our land, and not regard commerce--it was a broken reed to depend on; but now, they want to put the nation to an enormous expense to protect that commerce they thought so lightly of! The frigates would cost more than double the money which was at first estimated: this would be a disgrace to any nation. The whole process of the business had been bad, and he had no doubt but the estimate now before the House would be found deficient. Though he thought a small Navy would be useful, yet, until he saw its process conducted more fairly, and with more discretion, he should not vote a shilling to it: for the waste of money which had been discovered in this, had given him a distaste to it.
A remark having fallen from Mr. L., on the constitutionality of this appropriation--
Mr. W. SMITH said, that, what the gentleman observed, only respected an Army. The constitution says, an appropriation for the Army shall not be made for more than two years, but it said not a word about restricting a Navy; and it is certain that the framers of the constitution had a view to a Navy, as in three different parts it makes mention of it. [Here Mr. S. read those parts from the constitution.] The question was not whether to repeal the law or not, but whether the appropriation bill was to be tacked to the repeal. When before taken up, a majority voted for two bills, and they are accordingly reported, and now the two are to be united. This, said he, is directing the Senate to vote a certain way, because this House saw it right. This was a kind of coercion which would oblige them (if they support their independence, which they certainly will) to reject the repeal. This, he said, was a spirit which every gentleman in the House felt. He therefore hoped there would be two bills.
Mr. GALLATIN did not conceive this a question on the constitution; it was not on the power of the House as to the subject of appropriation, but merely on connecting the two bills. He conceived it perfectly right and proper to connect them, because the subject of them was the same. It was not novel: appropriation and repeal had before been connected. Indeed, he thought it improper to hold the Senate in any consideration at all. He should not be guided by any apprehensions of what they would do. The gentleman last up had said, it was unfair to connect them, as it would oblige members who opposed one to vote for both. Now, a majority will always decide, and those in the minority will always be affected. That gentleman would rather take a question on each; but Mr. G. said he would rather on both together. But both will not be material, more than in a certain degree. He further observed that a decision had been come to to keep the subjects apart. This, Mr. G. said, was only in order to give leave to the committee to report one or two bills. But that could not now affect the decision. The House might now do as they pleased. He looked upon the first act of the law as rather explanatory of the other. A law passed last year for the equipment of the frigates. The first law expired as to the manning them. It is therefore only for fear the word "equipment" should be so construed as to mean "manning," that we wish a connection of these bills.
He thought it more candid and fair to have both the objects before the Senate at one time than to separate them. If they think it an attack upon their privileges they would act consistently therewith.
Mr. WILLIAMS could not see where the difference was, whether the bills were apart or not. He was sorry any jealousy should be discovered towards another branch; if the amendment were to go to the Senate they had power to reject any part. The next Congress would take a view of the subject, and do what they thought right, as the frigates would not be fit to be manned till then.
Mr. BUCK again repeated his objections to uniting the bills.
Mr. N. SMITH thought there could be no good reasons for uniting the bills. There had not yet been any appropriation made, and the money was nearly expended; he thought the appropriation should be passed immediately, as he had no doubt but both Houses would ultimately unite in this object. If, therefore, any money was to be appropriated, let it be done, and then if the House thought proper to agree to the repeal, it could be done, as no delay ought to be made.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) said the other day, that he would not, under any situation, vote the supply until he knew whether there was any intention to fit them for sea or not. This, Mr. S. thought the principal point; but except that gentleman, with others, thought the ships were to remain in the same situation as at present, it certainly was necessary to agree to the appropriations; this was voted on all hands, though some could not agree to go all lengths. He did not believe many could be found in the House who would wish them to remain and rot on the stocks; but for gentlemen to say they would not agree to grant the supply except the other part was repealed, he thought wrong. It was true, they had the power to withhold even appropriations for the PRESIDENT's salary, Senate, &c., but if such opposition was supported, Government could not long exist. That House had power over the Senate, and, vice versa, the Senate over that House--each had a right to think and do as they pleased, but it would be wrong in one to curtail the privilege of the other by an ill-timed opposition; this was merely to show a spleen which could not but be to the detriment and delay of business.
Mr. W. SMITH rose to answer some observations made by Mr. GALLATIN and Mr. VENABLE, and proceeded to show the impropriety of tacking the bills; he said it would produce insurmountable difficulties. He never could agree to this tortus discordans being sent up to the Senate.
Mr. VENABLE answered. The question was then put for tacking the two bills, and carried, ayes 41, noes 36.
The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments reported by the Committee of the Whole. Whereupon, the first amendment reported by the Committee of the Whole House, for adding a new section, to be the second section of the said bill, being read, in the words following, to wit:
"And be it further enacted, That the sum of ---- dollars be, and the same is hereby appropriated for the purpose of finishing the frigates now building, called the United States, Constitution, and Constellation; and that the same be paid out of the surplus of revenue and income, which may accrue to the end of the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-seven, after satisfying the objects for which appropriations have been heretofore made."
Mr. W. SMITH said, as the question would first be taken on the amendment and then upon the resolution as amended, a member who wished to vote for the finishing of the frigates, but not for the repeal, would not have an opportunity of showing his sentiments by the yeas and nays. In order that members who thought with him might have an opportunity of showing their vote, he called for the previous question upon the proposition.
The SPEAKER declaring that this motion was not in order, Mr. W. SMITH called for the yeas and nays upon the amendment.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, rather than not obtain an appropriation for finishing the frigates, he should vote in favor of the amendment, though he was of the same opinion with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. W. SMITH) as to the unfairness of the proceeding.
Mr. DENT was of the same opinion.
Mr. MUHLENBERG said as the amendment stood annexed to the other bill, he should vote against it; though, if the subject had continued in a separate bill, he should have voted in favor of it.
The question was then taken on the amendment, and decided in the affirmative, 59 to 25, as follows:
YEAS.--Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, William Cooper, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, William Findlay, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, Ezekiel Gilbert, James Gillespie, Henry Glenn, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, Samuel Lyman, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, John Patton, John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Thompson J. Skinner, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg, Zephaniah Swift, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, John Williams, and Richard Winn.
NAYS.--Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, George Ege, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, William Hindman, Francis Malbone, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Josiah Parker, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Nathaniel Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, John Swanwick, George Thatcher, and Peleg Wadsworth.
The bill was then recommitted to a Committee of the Whole, in order to have the blank for the sum to be appropriated for finishing the vessels inserted, and was filled with $172,000.
TUESDAY, February 21.
Negotiation with the Mediterranean Powers.
Mr. W. SMITH moved that the House should go into a committee on the business, which would require the galleries to be closed; the SPEAKER accordingly put the question for going into a Committee of the Whole on the bill to authorize a negotiation with the Mediterranean Powers, which, being carried, the galleries were cleared accordingly.
After the galleries were cleared, the bill was agreed to with amendments, and ordered for a third reading to-morrow.
On motion that the House come to the following resolution:
"Resolved, That the injunction of secrecy upon the members of this House, so far as it relates to that part of the communication made by the President, by his Message of January 9, which has been printed, be taken off, and that all future debates and proceedings thereon be had with open doors."
A motion was made to insert, after the words "be taken off," "together with the letter of Messrs. Barlow and Donaldson, of April 5, 1796." The question on the amendment was taken by yeas and nays, and lost--yeas 19, nays 65.
The main question was then taken by yeas and nays, and resulted--yeas 53, nays 36.
Reports of the Secretary of State, relative to the present situation of affairs with the Dey and Regency of Algiers, accompanying the following confidential Message from the President of the United States, received the 9th of January, 1797:
_Gentlemen of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives_:
Herewith I lay before you, in confidence, reports from the Departments of State and the Treasury, by which you will see the present situation of our affairs with the Dey and Regency of Algiers.
G. WASHINGTON.
UNITED STATES, January 9, 1797.
To the President of the United States, the Secretary of State respectfully makes the following brief representation of the affairs of the United States, in relation to Algiers:
When Colonel Humphreys left America, in April, 1795, he was accompanied by Joseph Donaldson, Esq., who had been appointed Consul for Tunis and Tripoli; and him Colonel Humphreys was authorized to employ in negotiating a Treaty with Algiers, while he should proceed himself to France, for the purpose of obtaining the co-operation of that Government in this negotiation.
They arrived at Gibraltar on the 17th of May. Colonel Humphreys concluded that it was expedient for Mr. Donaldson to go first to Alicant, rather than Algiers, in order to be near at hand, to ascertain facts and profit of occasions. He gave him instructions accordingly; and having also instructed Mr. Simpson, our Consul at Gibraltar, to renew our peace with the Emperor of Morocco, Colonel Humphreys sailed from Gibraltar the 24th of May, and arrived at Havre de Grace on the 26th of June; from whence he set off immediately for Paris. The object of his mission was communicated by our Minister, Colonel Monroe, to the Committee of Public Safety. On the 1st of July he had received only a verbal answer, that the French Government was disposed to interest itself, and to do every thing in its power, to promote the accomplishment of our wishes on the subject in question. On the 28th, assurances were received that immediate measures should be taken for giving particular instructions to the agents of the Republic, to use its influence in co-operating with us. The multiplicity of affairs with which the officers of Government were occupied, and the getting from London a sum of money necessary to purchase the usual peace presents, prevented a conclusion of this arrangement at Paris until September. It had been judged expedient, by Colonel Humphreys and Colonel Monroe, that Joel Barlow should be employed in the negotiation with the Barbary States, and his consent had been obtained. By the 11th of September, all the writings on the part of Colonel Humphreys were prepared for Mr. Barlow, to proceed with the instructions and powers from the Government of the French Republic to its agents in Barbary, in favor of our negotiation.
Colonel Humphreys left Paris the 12th of September, and reached Havre the 14th, where he found the master and mate of the United States brig Sophia, both sick with fevers. While waiting there impatiently for their recovery, he received intelligence from our Consul at Marseilles, that Mr. Donaldson had concluded a Treaty of Peace with the Dey of Algiers; nevertheless, Colonel Humphreys thought it expedient that Mr. Barlow should proceed with the presents prepared and preparing at Paris; for, if not needed at Algiers, they would be wanted in the negotiation with Tunis and Tripoli.
About the 5th of October, Colonel Humphreys sailed from Havre, and after a stormy passage of more than forty days, arrived at Lisbon on the 17th of November. There he found Captain O'Brien, who had arrived about the 1st of October, with the Treaty with Algiers.
On the 3d of September Mr. Donaldson arrived at Algiers, and on the 5th the Treaty was concluded, and the peace presents immediately given, by a loan. Mr. Donaldson, knowing that funds had been lodged in London to answer his stipulations, engaged to make the payments in three or four months.
Colonel Humphreys had received advice, under date of the 30th July, from the Messrs. Barings, in London, to whom the funds had been remitted, that, having made progress in the sales of the United States' stock, they should hold, at his disposal, the whole of the value of $800,000, meaning to furnish, by anticipation, the value of that part which remained unsold, if the service of the United States required it. Colonel Humphreys, counting on the money as always ready after this period, sent Captain O'Brien from Lisbon to London, in the brig Sophia, to receive it. Owing to contrary winds, she did not leave Lisbon till the 24th of December. The other details, relative to the pecuniary transactions, appear in the report of the Secretary of the Treasury.
The disappointments in the pecuniary negotiations, put the Treaty in jeopardy; the Dey threatened to abandon it, and it was with extreme difficulty that it was prevented. Mr. Barlow did not arrive at Alicant until February, 1796, where he proposed to wait the arrival of the funds: but, after a little time, his intelligence from Algiers showing that our affairs were in a critical situation, he determined to go thither immediately, with the hope of soothing the Dey. He arrived there the 4th of March; they had before prolonged the time to the 8th of April for the payment of the stipulated sums. On the 3d of this month the Dey declared what should be his final determination--that in eight days Mr. Barlow and Mr. Donaldson should leave Algiers; and if, in thirty days after, the money was not paid, the Treaty should be at an end, and his cruisers should bring in American vessels. Under these circumstances, and as the last hope of saving the Treaty, they were induced to offer the present of a frigate--this fortunately succeeded. For the particulars of this transaction, the Secretary begs leave to refer to the enclosed letter from Messrs. Barlow and Donaldson.
Colonel Humphreys not deeming himself authorized to confirm this promise of a frigate, referred the matter to the Executive of the United States; and for this end despatched Captain O'Brien, in the brig Sophia, to America. There was evidently no alternative; and the promise was confirmed.
The frigate is now building in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and is expected to be finished in the spring. Captain O'Brien returned to Lisbon, where he arrived on the ---- of July. Colonel Humphreys had advantageously negotiated bills on London for $225,000. This sum was embarked on board the Sophia, and, on the 3d of August, Captain O'Brien set sail for Algiers. He has not since been heard of, and there is room to fear that some misfortune has befallen him. The money was insured at a small premium, against the danger of the seas; against all risks they demanded so high a premium as Colonel Humphreys judged it inexpedient to give, seeing the Sophia was a vessel of the United States, having a special passport from the President, as well as a passport in the Turkish language, under the seal of the Dey of Algiers.
Such arrangements have been made by Mr. Barlow and Mr. Donaldson, at Algiers and Leghorn, as will doubtless insure the payment of the $400,000 originally expected from the latter place; and the same house have become engaged to the Dey and Regency for the residue of the money due as the price of peace, without which he would not agree to the redemption of the captives.
The Secretary of the Treasury estimates these further sums to be provided to fulfil the terms of the Treaty $255,759 For two years' annuities to the Dey 99,246 To which are to be added the 10,000 sequins promised by Mr. Barlow and Mr. Donaldson, mentioned in their letter 18,000 And the expenses of the captives performing quarantine at Marseilles, and transporting them to America, estimated by the Consul at Marseilles, at about 6,500 ------- 379,505
On the 31st ultimo I received a letter from Mr. Barlow, dated the 13th of July, informing that the agent, Mr. Famin, at Tunis, who had been recommended to him by the French Consul Herculias, had concluded, with the Bey of that Regency, a truce for six months, from the 15th day of June last, and that without any presents.
TIMOTHY PICKERING, Secretary of State.
DEPARTMENT OF STATE, January 6, 1797.
WEDNESDAY, February 22.
Mediterranean Powers.
The bill for making appropriations to defray the expense of negotiations with Mediterranean powers, was also read the third time. The provisions of this act, (which has been the subject of the various discussions which have lately taken place with closed galleries) are to the following effect:
"That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby authorized to apply a sum not exceeding 255,759 dollars and three cents, to the expenses which may have been incurred in any negotiations with Mediterranean powers, beyond the sums heretofore appropriated; and that the said sum of 255,759 dollars and three cents, be, and the same is hereby appropriated for that purpose; and that a further sum not exceeding 96,246 dollars and 63 cents, be, and the same is hereby appropriated for discharging the two first years' annuity to the Dey and Regency of Algiers, pursuant to treaty, in addition to the gum appropriated for that purpose by the act of the sixth of May, 1796."
On the question being put that the bill do pass, Mr. GREENUP said he never liked the bill in any shape whatever; he would therefore express it now. He then called for the yeas and nays, which were taken, and stood ayes 63, noes 19, as follow:
YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury, Nathan Bryan, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, William Cooper, James Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, William Findlay, Dwight Foster, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, Ezekiel Gilbert, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, Jonathan N. Havens, Thomas Henderson, William Hindman, Aaron Kitchell, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Matthew Locke, Samuel Lyman, James Madison, Francis Malbone, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, Josiah Parker, Elisha R. Potter, John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Thompson J. Skinner, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.
NAYS.--David Bard, Thomas Blount, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, John Clopton, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, John Hathorn, John Heath, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, William Strudwick, John Swanwick, Abraham Venable, and Richard Winn.
On motion of Mr. GALLATIN, the title was changed to "a bill to authorize the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to apply further sums to defray the expenses of the negotiation with the Dey and Regency of Algiers."[11]
John Cleves Symmes.
On motion of Mr. GALLATIN, the House took up the bill in addition to an act for granting certain lands to John Cleves Symmes and his associates; when
Mr. COIT moved to strike out the first section. His object, he said, was to gain information, particularly with respect to the survey.
Mr. GALLATIN (who was Chairman of the Committee which made the report) gave a concise history of the business; which satisfied Mr. COIT, who withdrew his motion; and the bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
The particulars of this case are as follows:
John Cleves Symmes and his associates entered into a contract with the United States in the year 1787, for a million acres of land in the North-western Territory, at a time when the geography of that country was not well understood. The tract was to extend twenty miles up the Great Miami to the Little Miami; but when this line came to be measured, it was found that it cut the Little Miami in several places on land which had been reserved by Virginia at the cession of this Territory to the United States. Mr. Symmes was down in the country before he knew the line thus drawn would thus cut into the lands of Virginia. The first thing he did was to take possession of the country which is between Fort Washington and the Little Miami, and to sell as much as he could of it. General St. Clair, the Governor of that Territory, threatened to drive Mr. Symmes and the settlers off this territory to which he had no right. The innocent settlers, who had purchased the land of Mr. Symmes, sent forward representations of their case to the PRESIDENT, which, together with the representations of the Governor, produced an act to change the boundary line of the purchase, which was passed April 12, 1792. This act describes the boundary line of the tract of land to be between the two Miamis and the Ohio. Mr. Ludlow was sent to survey it in 1793, when it was found, that instead of there being one million of acres, there were only five hundred and forty-three thousand nine hundred and fifty, which was duly surveyed, and the survey lodged in the Treasury Office on the 10th of January, 1794. Here arose the first difficulty. The act passed to change the boundary line could not take place without the consent of Mr. Symmes. In consequence, the law was said to be enacted at the request of Mr. Symmes. In 1794, Mr. S. had not made any request, consequently the law was a nullity. He might at that time have said, he would not have the land upon any other than the original contract, and that it was the business of the United States to make up the deficiency; and, if he had so acted, it is probable Congress would have been obliged to have found him one million of acres of land, agreeably to his contract; but, at that time, lands were not raised to so high a price as they were now, and Mr. S. did not think it necessary to avail himself of his contract. On the 11th April, 1792, a petition was presented in his name, stating, that from an advance in the price of certificates, resulted the impossibility of fulfilling his contract, and prayed that an abatement might be made in the price of the land. On the 27th September, 1794, instead of saying he would not abide by the new boundary, he requests an alteration may be made in the boundary. Notwithstanding this request, Mr. S. now says, he did not know any thing of the survey, though more than nine months since it was made. At first sight, it would be supposed the contract was void for want of fulfilment; but as he says he never received from the public a counterpart of the contract (though it is generally supposed he had in some way got possession of a copy, but no proof existing of it,) the claim was not forfeited. A circumstance was mentioned which seemed to convey a strong supposition that Mr. S. was acquainted with the survey. The day following the request he had made for the new boundary, was issued to him a patent for three hundred thousand acres, referring to that survey. Mr. S. now objects to the releasement which was given of his first purchase as not being complete. It was stated that he had taken possession of land to which he was no way entitled. The necessity of the act being immediately passed appeared from an advertisement (which Mr. GALLATIN read from a newspaper of that country) inviting persons to come and purchase, under an assurance that his original purchase would be completed. Mr. G. said that he had been offered some part of the land at a dollar an acre; he was informed that it would sell for two to settlers. Mr. G. said he knew it to be very capital land; and if the four hundred and fifty thousand acres which remained would sell for nine hundred thousand dollars, while he only gave three hundred thousand for the whole, he would have made a good bargain.
THURSDAY, February 23.
Direct and Indirect Taxes.
INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.
Mr. GALLATIN hoped that the motion would not prevail. He believed he was the only person who had said, that he was not desirous that the bill laying a direct tax should pass this session. For it was true, that, although he was a strong advocate for a direct tax--although he thought a sufficient permanent revenue could not be drawn from any other source, yet he did not wish the law to pass during the present session; and the reason was, because he had not a sufficient reliance upon his own opinion, to wish a subject of this sort to come into being against the opinion of so many members of this House as appeared to be opposed to it. When the United States shall think it necessary to go into the measure, he trusted it would pass with great unanimity. At present, he doubted whether a majority of the country was not against the measure, especially when he not only saw so great a division in that House, but apparently a local division, as he believed only four members East of Hudson's River, and but five South of Virginia had voted for the measure, by which it appeared to be a mode desired only by the Middle States. Until, therefore, gentlemen from those parts had returned home and consulted their constituents upon the subject; until he knew that the law could be carried into effect with more unanimity than at this time appeared, he did not wish to press it. He was willing, therefore, to take all the blame which was imputable to this circumstance upon himself. He never wished the powers of Congress to be exercised in a way which should not meet with pretty general concurrence. Yet, had he thought the situation of the United States had been such, that additional revenue was absolutely necessary to support the public credit, and it could not have been conveniently raised from any other source, every other consideration would have given way to that necessity. But he did not think that any thing which had been said by the gentleman from South Carolina showed that there would be any deficiency in the revenue for the present, which would require additional taxes to supply it.
He would just observe, that the great argument in favor of direct taxes--an argument which had almost wrought conviction upon the mind of the gentleman from South Carolina himself--was the uncertainty of a revenue derived from commerce; and yet, from this circumstance, the friends of indirect taxes wish to extend that plan to the utmost, and raise every thing from it. He should have drawn different conclusions; and from that uncertainty, he should have wished never to have gone beyond those bounds which they knew were safe.
As to the receipts of 1797, Mr. G. said, we had well ascertained them, because they arose from the importations of 1796, which they knew amounted to 6,200,000 dollars, and which sum, with the internal duties, would be fully adequate to the expenses of the Government for this year. Yet some gentlemen thought the calculation too close, and therefore the additional duties before them had been consented to, which he believed every one must acknowledge would be fully equal to any deficiency that could possibly arise. The arguments of the gentleman from South Carolina applied to the year 1798. He said we did not know what might be the amount of the importations of the present year; that it might be less than last year, and therefore, that revenue ought to be provided to supply the deficiency, if there should be any. The arguments would be good, if the gentleman's data were true; but he had forgotten that the expenses of 1798 would be less than those of the present year by 700,000 dollars, including not only the current expenses, but the instalment of the Dutch debts, which in that year would only be 100,000 dollars. The instalment this year is 400,000, so that in this item there will be a difference of 240,000 dollars; in the next place, the 280,000 dollars which this year has been agreed to be paid to the Dey and Regency of Algiers, will not occur again; and also, the 180,000 dollars appropriated for finishing the frigate, would not be to provide another year. These three items made the 700,000 dollars which he had mentioned. In addition he would add, that this year there had been a charge of 200,000 dollars for the defence of the frontier in 1795; but perhaps something might be wanted in that quarter another year, and therefore he would pass over that sum. But he thought there could be no danger of a want of revenue in the year 1798.
Mr. G. said, he would not pretend to say that it would not be desirable to increase the revenue, in order that they might pay a part of such instalments of the foreign debt as would become due after the year 1801. Certainly the sooner our debt could be paid, the better; but he meant only to show that there was no necessity for increasing the revenue for 1798. If it were necessary to raise additional revenue, it would be for two principal objects, the payment of the Dutch debt and the eight per cent. deferred stock; but as these did not become due till the year 1801, they were not under the necessity of providing the means for it at present.
During the next session, Mr. G. said, they should have time to compare the two systems of taxes together, and to discover which offered the best and most permanent sources of revenue. For the reasons he had given, he should be opposed to the motion.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he should not adduce many arguments to show the propriety of advancing the duty upon this article any more than that upon any other; but he wished to bring before the committee a true statement of the receipts and expenditures of the United States, in order to show what sum of money would probably be wanted to answer the demands of the United States. As he differed considerably from the gentleman from Pennsylvania as to our real wants, he considered it as his duty to lay this statement before the committee. He had investigated the subject with as much accuracy as possible. He had attended to the documents which had been laid before them, to the laws which would probably pass this session, and to the probable increase of revenue. The result of this examination was, that there would be a deficiency of about a million of dollars. To what the additional imposts already agreed to would amount, he could not say, but he believed they would make 200,000 dollars, which would leave a deficiency of 800,000 dollars. He made the following statement:
Expenses of 1797.
Civil list, $634,322 Military and Naval Establishment and pensions, 1,284,532 Deficiency of 1796, 201,000 Algerine appropriation, 376,500 Interest of Domestic Debt, 3,471,972 Interest on Dutch debt, 614,241 Instalments do do. 1797, 400,000 Premium remitt. &c. 50,000 Appropriations for frigate, 171,000 --------- 7,213,567 =========
Revenues of 1797.
Impost, $5,588,961 Internal revenues, 337,255 Post Office, 35,000 Bank stock, 150,000 Stock redeemed, 88,636 Sundries, 746 --------- 6,200,598 Additional imposts in 1797, 200,000 --------- 6,400,598 Probable deficiency of revenue, 812,969 --------- 7,213,567 =========
It would be observed, Mr. S. said, that the gentlemen from Pennsylvania and Maryland, had calculated the impost at 6,200,000 dollars, whilst he made it only at 5,588,961, which he took from the Secretary of the Treasury's statement, and he believed this was the safest calculation. He would not go into any very long argument on this subject, because it had frequently been under discussion.
Mr. GALLATIN inquired from what document Mr. SMITH took his calculations?
Mr. W. SMITH answered, from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, which was calculated upon a permanent plan. In calculations on the subject of revenue, the largest amounts should not be taken. It was not policy in gentlemen to adopt that plan; they should make allowances for deficiencies and accidents. The situation of this country at present required it, and it would be safe, prudent, and discreet, to do so. The Secretary of the Treasury had estimated the internal revenue at 337,255 dollars, while those gentlemen made it 469,579. This they stated from the revenue of last year, which it was probable would be considerably more than this. He thought there was as much reason for taking one as the other statement; and the Government would be exposed to hazard and danger, unless allowances were made for deficiencies.
The deficiency, according to his calculation, was 1,012,969 dollars, and after deducting from that sum 200,000 for the additional duties in the bill before them, there would remain a balance of 812,969 dollars. Admitting the gentleman's own statement to be true, there would still be a deficiency of 100,000 dollars, and this without making any allowance whatever for accidents and occurrences which will always happen, without making any provision for the purchase of the public debt, which might at this time be purchased to great advantage. If there had been money in the Treasury for the purpose, instead of paying the debt at par, it might have been bought up at 16 or 17s. in the pound. And he was of opinion, from the present situation of things, the public debt would remain low, and that a surplus in the Treasury might be well employed in purchasing it.
So much for the revenue and expenses of the present year. With respect to 1798, there was no necessity to go much into that subject. The gentleman from Pennsylvania had estimated the instalment of the Dutch debt, payable in this year, at 160,000 dollars only; but he asked whether it would be wise to pay only that sum? And whether it had not been in the contemplation of that gentleman, as well as others, to pay as much as they could yearly? He knew they should not be obliged to pay more; but he believed it would be a wise policy to pay an equal sum every year. That gentleman made another deduction of 280,000 dollars, which had been granted to the Dey and Regency of Algiers this year; but might they not expect items which they did not contemplate, to this amount? Contingencies, he said, occurred, which always swelled the expenses greater than were contemplated. There was always something of an extraordinary nature occurring to call for money; either an Indian war, or insurrection, depredations of foreign powers, or attacks by the Algerines. There was no guarding with certainty against them. The next deduction was 100,000 dollars for the frigates. Whether this would be saved or not, was uncertain. The next House might agree to go on with the frigates.
Upon the whole, Mr. S. said, it would be prudent to provide a sufficiency of revenue, and there was no prospect of getting it from any other than the objects contained in the bill before them. A land tax was agreed to be laid aside for the present, as gentlemen from the Eastward seemed wholly against it, and those of the Middle States seemed to have grown lukewarm upon the subject. The duty on stamps, which would have provided considerable revenue, was also laid aside. They had agreed to lay low duties upon distilled domestic spirits; no increase could therefore be expected from that quarter. They could, then, only resort to such articles of impost as would be likely, from their general demand and other circumstances, to produce additional revenue. As, therefore, no prospect appeared of getting other revenue than by the article before them, he should be compelled to agree, though with reluctance, to the advance of the duty on sugar.
With respect to their lands, they had authorized public stock to be received in payment; and, though he thought this a very valuable regulation, both for facilitating the sale of the land, and for paying off the debt, the lands, on this account, would not produce much cash into the Treasury.
Mr. S. SMITH said, very early in the present session, he read, with some attention, the report of the Secretary of the Treasury on the subject of direct taxes. He cast his eye upon certain articles which he thought proper subjects upon which to raise further sums from indirect sources, among which were salt, sugar, tea, and the whole of the 10 per cent. class of goods; he communicated his sentiments to other gentlemen, and they had been brought forward.
He supposed the House would have gone into a system of direct taxes. This he had always considered as a difficult subject, and he never could, himself, form a plan adequate to effect it; but he was desirous that the subject should have been taken up, that in case of extremity it might be called into operation. He did not think any immediate wants of the revenue required this tax to be put into execution, but he wished to take it into consideration, to see what could be done with it. He had still his doubts whether it could be carried into execution; if it could, it would doubtless form a valuable source of revenue, which could not be injured. He had no doubt, however, of the present revenue being equal to our present wants. The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. W. SMITH) had taken his calculations from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but the Secretary went into a permanent calculation for a period of 18 years, in the course of which he calculated the sinking of the whole debt.
The trade of 1796, Mr. S. said, would give nearly a million of dollars; of course there could be no apprehensions upon the minds of gentlemen that the receipts of 1797 would not be equal to the wants of Government. The tax upon sugar would produce 300,000 dollars. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) was correct on this subject.
The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. W. SMITH) had said, it was not wise to calculate upon the highest returns; but Mr. S. SMITH said it was right to calculate upon a preceding year, and when they knew that there would be received in this year from 700,000 dollars to one million, there could be no doubt of the year 1798 falling far short of that sum. For he was not one of those who thought the revenue arising from this year would be much inferior to that arising from the last.
The gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. HARPER) had supposed that the British spoliations had not affected our revenue, but that those of the French would be severely felt. He saw no difference between them, and believed they would be felt alike in proportion to their extent. [Mr. HARPER explained.] He believed the United States would only consume a certain portion of the goods imported; the rest would be re-exported, and the drawback received upon them; and, as he did not believe the consumption of the United States had been lessened, it would follow that it had been the re-exportation which had been diminished, and, of course, that it would not be the duties which would be decreased, but the drawbacks. This being the case, little was to be apprehended from a defalcation of the revenue this year.
Indeed, he was of opinion, that the revenue arising from the present year, would be equal to any preceding year. The expenses of 1797 would be as follows:
ESTIMATE FOR THE YEAR 1797.
Instalment due on part of the Dutch debt, with interest on the whole debt, together about $ 992,000 Annual 8 per cent. and 6 per cent. stock, 2,324,175 Annual interest on 3 per cent. do. 587,926 Ditto on 5-1/2 per cent. do. 101,689 Ditto on 4-1/2 per cent. do. 7,920 Ditto on supposed unfunded debt, 78,261 Ditto on Bank loans, 372,200 ----------- 4,463,971 Internal expenditures (as below) 2,255,255 ----------- $6,719,226 ===========
Civil List, Mint, and Diplomatic, (agreeably to the Secretary's report, estimated on the session of six months,) $564,753 Deduct savings arising on the session of four months only, 52,800 ----------- 511,953 Bill for foreign intercourse, 40,000 Light-houses, 45,647 Miscellaneous claims, 12,000 ----------- $609,600 ===========
MILITARY DEPARTMENT.
Pay of four regiments and artillery corps, $256,450 Subsistence, 236,900 Clothing, 75,000 Bounties, 16,000 Hospital Department, 25,000 Ordnance 40,000 ----------- 649,350
Amount brought forward, $649,350 Two instructors, 1,450 Quartermaster's Department, 150,000 Defensive protection, 60,000 Indian Department, 90,000 Contingencies of War Department, 15,000 Repairing fortifications, 20,000 Military Pensions, 93,350 Naval Department, 190,000 Balance due on Algerine business, 376,505 ---------- Internal expenses of 1797, $2,255,255
The expenses of the Quartermaster's Department would in future be considerably lessened; for, said Mr. S., heretofore great expense had been incurred by land carriage, which in future would be avoided, as the forage would all be conveyed by water. Indeed it had not been an unusual thing for the horses employed in conveying forage from one post to another, to eat the whole of it in their journey to and from their destination, and some horses had been known to die from want on the road. The conveyance being now by water, a great destruction of horses would be prevented, and he doubted not that one hundred thousand dollars would be saved under this head.
FRIDAY, February 24.
Amy Dardin.
The House proceeded to consider the report of the Committee of Claims, of the sixth ultimo, to whom was referred the petition of Amy Dardin, which lay on the table; whereupon, the said report was read at the Clerk's table, in the words following, to wit:
"That the most important, and all the material facts respecting this claim, are stated in the former report of the committee appointed to consider the said petition. To that report the committee now ask leave to refer. Whatever justice there might originally have been in this claim against the United States, it is now, and for many years past has been, as clearly within the statutes of limitation, as a multitude of others, which have been rejected. The committee regret that no relief can, with propriety, be granted to the petitioner, upon her application. So many evils would result from a suspension of the limitation act, for the admission of claims similar to the one under consideration, the committee cannot recommend that measure to be adopted. They are of opinion the prayer of the petition ought not to be granted."
The question was taken that the House do agree to the said report, and passed in the negative--34 to 27; when Mr. GALLATIN moved that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill in favor of the petitioner. This motion occasioned some debate.
Mr. GALLATIN said, he rejoiced in the vote which had passed in respect to the report before them, as it was a precedent against the act of limitation. When a claim was clear, it was a denial of justice not to pay the debt. He did not think it was more justifiable in a Government to refuse to pay its debts, than it was in individuals to do so. Though an act of limitation had been passed, they ought only to consider it, in a modified sense, as a guard against fraud; but, in cases where they were convinced a debt was justly due, he did not see upon good principles they could refuse to pay it. He was sure there was not a member on that floor that would do so in his individual capacity. Nor did he believe they needed to be operated on by the fear of a number of these claims being brought: he believed their number was small. But, said he, shall we fear that we shall be called upon to pay a few more just debts? He trusted so unworthy an apprehension would not prevent them from doing what was right. The act of limitation was produced, he said, by an incapacity to pay the claims which were made upon Government, and now they took advantage of that capacity, by refusing to pay the just demands which were made upon them. The certificates which had been given, not worth more than one-eighth of their nominal value, had been scattered all over the United States, and the distance from the seat of Government had been the reason application had not been made for payment. He spoke from his own knowledge. He had some of them put into his hands. Some of them he was fortunate enough to get paid before the act of limitation passed; others were yet unsettled. It was only since the erection of this Government, which had given them the ability to pay, that these claims were brought forward; for six or seven years every kind of claim was mustered, and the public debt was considerably swelled by them, but now a contrary extreme was observed, and no claim, however just, had a chance of being satisfied. He had never troubled the House on a subject of this kind before, but he had taken advantage of the fortunate decision of this morning to say a few words on the subject.
Messrs. HEATH, MACON, WILLIAMS, and D. FOSTER, were against a committee being appointed to bring in a bill; they hoped no partial regulation would take place, but that if any exception was made, from the operation of the act of limitation, it would be done in a general way, as there was a great number of claims equally well entitled, with Mrs. Dardin's, to payment. Indeed, Mr. D. FOSTER, Chairman of the Committee of Claims, (who was not present when the question was taken upon the report,) said, if this claim was granted, it would bring forward a thousand others.
The report, petition, and papers, were committed to the whole House on Monday.
SATURDAY, February 25.
Suability of States.
On motion of Mr. HARPER, the House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the report of the select committee on the resolution sent from the Senate, authorizing the PRESIDENT to make inquiry of certain States whether they had adopted the proposed amendment to the constitution with respect to the suability of States.
The select committee did not confine themselves to this single amendment, as reported from the Senate, but went back to the year 1789, when twelve amendments were proposed by Congress; for though they state eleven States out of fourteen had ratified ten of these amendments in the year 1791, yet they were of opinion that a doubt might arise whether eleven States ought to be considered as the three-fourths of fourteen; they therefore wished the PRESIDENT to be requested to make inquiry also from the non-ratifying States on the subject of these ten amendments.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, the resolution of itself was only exceptionable as it had connection with the statement which went before it, in which it was made a question whether the ten last amendments of the twelve proposed by Congress to the States in March, 1789, were ever made part of the constitution. He did not wish a doubt to be expressed on this subject. This doubt, in the opinion of the committee, it seemed, rested on a supposition that eleven were not three-fourths of fourteen. He could not conceive how any doubt could arise on this subject, since it must be acknowledged by every one that eleven was more than three-fourths of fourteen. If the objection arose from fourteen not being divisible in equal fourth parts, it was an objection to the constitution as originally made. It was formed by thirteen States, which was no more divisible into fourths than fourteen. On this ground, an amendment could never have been made to the constitution. He hoped the Chairman of the committee would give them some information on the subject.
Mr. HARPER said, it was not of much importance whether the committee had doubts, or whether those doubts were well founded. The committee stated they had these doubts. He had them; not whether eleven was three-fourths of fourteen, according to arithmetical calculation--every school boy knew, that, in that view, eleven was more than three-fourths of fourteen; but it was, whether you could make a division of States. He believed it could not be done; he believed there must be twelve ratifying States to be three-fourths, as intended by the constitution, because that number would be three-fourths of sixteen, which was the nearest number to fourteen capable of four equal divisions. Whether this doubt was well founded or not, there could be no harm in directing the inquiry to be made; it would be made as soon for thirteen amendments as for one, and if any other State should have ratified the ten amendments in question, all doubt would be removed. Mr. H. noticed an error or two which had escaped the committee in their report.
Mr. GALLATIN said, the resolution under consideration went to direct the PRESIDENT to apply to all those States, by whom, as far as can be known from the official documents heretofore transmitted, all or any of the amendments at any time proposed by Congress still remained to be ratified. There could be no occasion to make the inquiry with respect to all these amendments, unless it were taken for granted that none of them had yet been ratified. He was, therefore, of opinion, with the gentleman from Virginia, that such an application would be very improper, as bringing the ten last amendments into doubt, which he believed to be as much a part of the constitution as any other article in it; he also thought them a very valuable part, and not to be trifled with.
But, upon what ground, said Mr. G., do the advocates of this report prove that 11 is not three-fourths of 14? The idea was so novel that he could scarcely understand what principle they adopted in order to create a doubt on their minds on this subject. To him the position that 11 was more than three-fourths of fourteen appeared to be one of those self-evident axioms which hardly admit of a proof. The principle on which the doubt arose must be so very nice, so abstract, that he did not know whether he was capable of comprehending it. Anxious as he was to avoid saying any thing which might be construed as misstatement, he would, however, attempt to analyze what he conceived to be the ground of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. HARPER.)
It appeared to him that that gentleman thought three-fourths in itself was not a fraction of the unit, was not a number conveying to the mind the simple idea of a fraction; but that it was a compound of fractions, and that the only way by which the idea of three-fourths could be conceived was by a decomposition. Because the idea of three-fourths was by our numerical arithmetic expressed by the two figures 3/4, that gentleman was unable to conceive what it meant except by decomposition, by dividing the unit into four equal parts and multiplying the result by 3. And if that idea of three-fourths had happened to be expressed by the fraction nine-twelfths, (which was the same thing as three-fourths,) that gentleman could not have conceived it except by dividing in the first place the unit into twelve parts and then multiplying the result by nine. In fact he denied the existence of any number, part of a unit, except as it consisted of an aggregate of such parts as the unit could exactly be divided into.
Thus, when speaking of fourteen States, although he (Mr. GALLATIN) could at once understand that three-fourths of fourteen was ten-and-a-half, and, therefore, (admitting, as he did together with that gentleman, that the vote of a State was indivisible) that eleven States were more than three-fourths of fourteen, the gentleman from South Carolina proceeded in a different way. The fourth part of fourteen being three-and-a-half, he says that, as a State cannot be divided, you must take four States instead of three-and-a-half for the fourth part of fourteen, and then multiplying these four States by three, in order to get the three-fourths, he concludes that twelve States are three-quarters of fourteen--that the twelve States out of fourteen are necessary to ratify the amendments. He believed the gentleman would allow that he had not misstated his opinion.
Let us now see, said Mr. G., how this doctrine will operate. It would go to prove, in some instances, that three-fourths of a number is greater than the whole. Suppose, for instance, the case of five States. One-fourth of five is 1-1/4; but as the vote of a State cannot be divided, you must call it two; or, as the gentleman expressed it, five not being divisible into four equal parts, you must take the nearest number to five capable of such division, that is to say 8, the fourth part of which is two; two, therefore, must be considered as the fourth part of five States, and as three multiplied by two is six, it follows, according to that gentleman's doctrine, that the three-fourths of five is six! Suppose that, in the constitution, instead of the expression three-fourths, it had been said that nine-twelfths were necessary. The number of States when the constitution was framed was thirteen. In that case one-twelfth of thirteen being one and one-twelfth, you must, the vote of a State being indivisible, call it two; so that in that way of reckoning, nine-twelfths (which is the same thing as three-fourths) of 13 is 18! Consequently, the consent of eighteen States would have been necessary in order to ratify any amendment to the constitution of a nation consisting only of 13 States.
Let us, said he, examine a little farther. The same part of the constitution which provides for amendments of the constitution, says, that an amendment shall be proposed by two-thirds of both Houses of Congress; but he supposed the vote of a man was no more divisible than that of a State. He wished to know, therefore, how the gentleman would, on his principle, calculate what were two-thirds of the members present when their whole number was not divisible by three?
In making treaties he wished to know what was meant by two-thirds of the members of the Senate present? If the number present happened not to be divisible by three, would that gentleman say, that, in that case, the next number above the number present must be taken, which would be divisible by three, and that if two-thirds of that number did not concur in the vote for the treaty, no treaty should be ratified? On that principle, in some instances, a greater proportion of the Senate would be necessary to ratify a treaty than had been usually understood, according to the generally received opinion of the sense of the constitution in this respect.
Upon the whole, he believed it would be best to reject the report, as, besides the objections alluded to, it was confessedly inaccurate in some of its parts, and adopt the resolution sent from the Senate, which applied only to the amendment respecting the suability of States. If the House meant to go any further, they might introduce the first and second amendments proposed at the same time with the other ten, but which had not yet been ratified.
Mr. HARPER said, he would add a word or two to what he had already offered on this subject. He did not know whether the House thought with him on this subject, that it was a doubtful point whether the ten amendments in question had been ratified according to the sense of the constitution. If they did, they would of course, vote for the report. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, he acknowledged, had not only shown his knowledge in arithmetic, but also his wit, which had not until now been brought before them. In the enjoyment of the last he had participated in common with the House.
Mr. DAYTON (the Speaker) was in favor of rejecting the resolution reported by the select committee, as it embraced too many objects, and held out a kind of invitation for States to come forward and propose amendments to the constitution. He trusted the first of the amendments, proposed in 1789, relative to the proportion of representation, never would be agreed to, as it would have extremely mischievous effects. Indeed, if any thing were done with respect to that amendment, he should think it ought to be to request those States which have not adopted it, not to do it, and those who have agreed to it, to revoke their vote in favor of it.
The question was then taken on the resolution reported, and negatived, without division.
The resolution was as follows:
"Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to apply, as speedily as may be, to all those States, by which, as far as can be known from the official documents heretofore transmitted, all or any of the amendments, at any time proposed by Congress, still remains to be ratified; and to obtain from them authentic information of the proceedings had by them, respectively, on the subject of those amendments, or any of them."
The question was then taken on the resolution of the Senate, and agreed to. It was as follows:
"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President be requested to adopt some speedy and effectual means of obtaining information from the States of Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and South Carolina, whether they have ratified the amendment proposed by Congress to the constitution, concerning the suability of States: If they have, to obtain the proper evidences thereof."
Accommodation of the President.
On motion of Mr. GALLATIN, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill to accommodate the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; when
Mr. HENDERSON said, he wished for information on this subject, as he had not sufficient to convince him of the propriety of granting 14,000 dollars, in addition to the furniture now in possession of the PRESIDENT; he therefore moved to strike out the 14,000, for the purpose of inserting 5,000. The bill informed them that this sum, in addition to what might arise from the sale of such of the present furniture as may be decayed, out of repair, or unfit for use, was to be laid out in furnishing the household for the PRESIDENT. It was very lately that they had received a proposition from the Senate to advance the salary of the PRESIDENT 5,000 dollars; the bill was rejected by that House. It appeared to him that this bill went to effect the same thing in a different way. If the object was merely to furnish the household of the PRESIDENT, he thought a much less sum would be adequate to that purpose. He thought 5,000, with the proceeds of the sale of such of the present furniture as was unfit for service, might be sufficient. He had no doubt that the sum would make the furniture of the PRESIDENT for four years to come equal to what it had been for four years past.
Mr. NICHOLAS wished the gentleman would leave the sum blank, instead of inserting 5,000.
Mr. HENDERSON consented.
The question was taken, and negatived--42 to 39.
The committee then rose, and the House having taken up the subject--
Mr. NICHOLAS said, as a majority of the House was against striking out this sum, he wished to have some information why this sum was fixed upon, and for what purpose it was to be applied. No one wished more than he did to place the PRESIDENT in a situation conformable to his station; but according to his information, this sum was more than was given to the present PRESIDENT on his entering upon the office, though there remained the whole of the furniture, most of which was worth as much at this time as it was when first purchased.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, he would give to the gentleman all the information which he had on the subject. In the year 1778 or 1779, by a resolution, of the old Congress, an household was established for the PRESIDENT of Congress. This remained until the present Government went into operation in the year 1789. It was then resolved, that Mr. OSGOOD should be requested to fit up the House in a proper manner for the reception of the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. In that year the law passed for compensating the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, which enacted that a salary of 25,000 dollars should be allowed him, together with the use of the furniture then in his possession belonging to the United States. This furniture cost the United States 13,657 dollars, 83 cents. During the period from 1779, when the household was first established until 1789, when the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES entered upon his office, the furniture which had been purchased for the PRESIDENT by Congress, was so much decayed, that it required nearly 14,000 dollars to replenish it. It was the opinion of the joint committee, therefore, that in a lapse of eight years, viz: from 1789 to the present time, the furniture then purchased must have experienced equal dilapidation and decay, and that a sum at least as large as was then allowed (particularly when it was considered that the price of goods was very much advanced since that time) should now be allowed for putting the present household upon the same footing of respectability and convenience with that at New York in 1789. Mr. S. did not know that he could give any further information on the subject. It was a matter of notoriety that a great part of the goods then purchased were worn out and destroyed; such as the household linen, crockery ware, &c., and that the PRESIDENT had renewed them at his own expense; insomuch that if he were to take out of the House the furniture which he had supplied, there would little remain in it besides tables, chairs, bedsteads, and a few such articles; since all the carpets and ornamental furniture of the House had been purchased by himself.
Whilst he was up, he would wish to obviate the only objection which had been adduced to this bill. The gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. HENDERSON) had supposed that this allowance was meant to carry into effect what had been rejected in another way, alluding to the proposed advance of salary. That gentleman might see a very obvious distinction between the two things. If $5,000 had been added to the salary of the PRESIDENT, he could have disposed of it as he pleased; but the money now proposed to be granted, was to be employed in the purchase of furniture, &c., which would remain the property of the United States, and would devolve upon the next PRESIDENT. Mr. S. said, he would add, that in the joint committee there was not a dissenting voice to the proposition, and he hoped there would not be one in the House.
The question was put for engrossing the bill for a third reading, and carried, there being fifty votes in favor of it. This day and Monday were mentioned for the third reading; the question was carried for the most distant day, 40 to 35.
MONDAY, February 27.
Accommodation of the President.
The bill to accommodate the PRESIDENT was read the third time; when Mr. HEATH moved to have the bill recommitted, for the purpose of striking out $14,000 to insert $8,000. He thought $14,000 too large a sum to be given to purchase new furniture; $8,000 he thought would be a sufficiently handsome sum for the purpose. They were apt to be too lavish with the public money on some occasions, and too sparing on others. He had not been satisfied with the reasons which had been given by the Chairman of the committee for giving the sum now in the bill. At a time when our Treasury was so much in want of money, he did not wish so large a sum to be given for this purpose; nor did he think it necessary, except it were to put our PRESIDENT in the style of a potentate or prince. And this he was sure the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES would not wish, as he believed he was a gentleman of great economy, and would spurn at any thing like tinsel or expense. Five thousand dollars had been thought a sufficient sum for this purpose, but he was willing to give $8,000. He hoped the bill would therefore be recommitted, and this sum be inserted.
Mr. MACON seconded the motion for recommitting the bill. He was against it altogether. He did not see why they should furnish the house of the PRESIDENT any more than that of any other of their officers. He thought the thing improper at first, and that it was wrong to continue the practice. If the salary was not large enough, it should be made larger, though he thought it sufficiently large.
Mr. RUTHERFORD concurred with his colleague, Mr. HEATH. It was necessary, he said, that Republicans should be consistent. If we thus give away the people's money, said he, shall we not be charged with rapaciously putting our hands into their pockets? Have we not, he added, refused to redress grievances and injuries, and to do justice to many deserving and distressed citizens, because our Treasury is low? And shall we now, when there is no right reason for it, lay hold of the public Treasury, and lavish away $14,000? For what? For adding new furniture to the house of the PRESIDENT. No; he was willing to render him all possible respect; he remembered well his letter to our sister Republic of Holland. He had a pretty good memory. He remembered well his patriotism; but he saw no reason to give him $14,000. He would give him $8,000, which he thought would be a very pretty compliment; but to give $14,000 would outrage every idea of that economy and Republican simplicity which ought to characterize the American nation. Why, said he, shall we, who are a Confederacy of the Democratic Republicans, everlastingly keep our eyes upon the pageantry of Eastern Courts? Let us rather attend to our own character than that of any despotic nation upon earth. He hoped the bill would be recommitted.
The question for recommitting was carried--45 to 40.
The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill, when--
Mr. HEATH moved to strike out $14,000 and insert $8,000.
Mr. GILLESPIE called for the estimate, which he understood was in possession of the committee.
Mr. SITGREAVES said there was no estimate before the House or committee. All that he had seen was a list of the furniture which had been purchased for the PRESIDENT in 1789. He himself had not had patience to go through it; but if the gentleman wished it, it might be read to the House.
Mr. HARTLEY hoped there would have been no objection to this appropriation. He thought the Chairman of the committee had fully shown the propriety of granting the $14,000 to the PRESIDENT, who was not merely an officer of the Government, but a branch of it. It was not giving the money away, but merely advancing it on account of the United States. He was not in favor of high salaries, but he wished the situation of the PRESIDENT to be made comfortable and respectable.
Mr. HEATH said, he believed a great part of the furniture which was purchased in 1789, was at present as good as when laid in; this was particularly the case with respect to the mahogany furniture; and he thought the $8,000 would be a sufficient sum to replace all articles of a perishable nature, such as carpets, linens, &c.
Mr. HOLLAND was in favor of striking out, because it was only necessary to appropriate as much as might be necessary whilst Government remained here, as, when it should be removed, the furniture now used might not be suitable for the house at Washington. At that time, he supposed a further sum would be called for, and therefore he thought a less sum than $14,000 would be sufficient for the present purpose.
Mr. WILLIAMS was in favor of the bill as it stood. He had been told that it was the intention of the State of Pennsylvania to make an offer to the PRESIDENT of the house which had lately been erected in this city; if so, perhaps the furniture which might be purchased for it would be suitable for the house in the Federal City. He had before said that he thought it would have been better to have augmented the salary of the PRESIDENT, and let him purchase his own furniture. But as that had not been agreed to, he wished the committee now to rise and report progress, that information might be gained on the subject; because he thought if he was to have that house, that sum would not be too large.
Mr. SITGREAVES said, he did not know whether the Legislature of this State would conclude to make the PRESIDENT the offer which the gentleman last up had mentioned; but of this he was sure, that if they did, he could not afford to accept of it. For, if this bill passed, he was certain that, under such circumstances, he could not remove into that house, because he would not be able to furnish it.
Mr. S. said, he was surprised the House should so suddenly change their opinion. He thought he had given sufficient information on the subject to have shown the necessity of the grant. [Mr. S. here repeated what he had before noticed respecting what had been allowed on a former occasion.] When gentlemen entered minutely into the subject, they seemed to have information which was not very correct. He believed the sum mentioned in the bill not more than sufficient. The decay which had taken place in the PRESIDENT's household would require that sum to make it good. The gentleman from Virginia supposed there were many articles, not perishable in their nature, which could not have been injured by their use. He was mistaken. There was nothing but about $800 worth of plated ware and the mahogany furniture which could at all come under this description. Indeed, any gentleman who was in the habit of paying his respects to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES must have seen with regret that the appearance of his furniture was so far inferior to that which was to be found in the houses of any of our wealthy citizens, or even of those in moderate circumstances. When this was a notorious fact, what ground, he asked, could gentlemen have for comparing the household of the PRESIDENT to the pomp and splendor of Eastern Courts? On the contrary, he thought there was a humility of appearance in the house of the PRESIDENT, which he would not say was a disgrace to the country, but which at least proved its rigid economy.
Mr. NICHOLAS said he voted for going into Committee of the Whole on this subject from an idea that the sum proposed to be given to the PRESIDENT was larger than was necessary, though he confessed he could not say what that sum ought exactly to be; he was for giving enough and rather too much than too little. Indeed, when he considered that the whole sum was not to be expended, except it should be found necessary, and that a certain style was expected to be observed in this station, he was not for stinting the sum to what he thought just enough for purchasing furniture. If the whole of the money granted must of necessity be expended in furniture, he should have had more hesitation on the subject; but as the expenditure would be left to the discretion of the PRESIDENT, he could not suppose, from the well-known habits of economy of that gentleman, it would be improperly disposed of. He therefore felt no difficulty in agreeing to the sum in the bill; for though he thought the sum too large, yet he would not so confine the appropriation as to oblige their officer to go about the streets to look out for cheap purchases of furniture.
Mr. BUCK said, previous to these measures being brought forward, they had decided against any advance to the salary of the PRESIDENT. All that time a committee was appointed to inquire into the state of the PRESIDENT's household, and to report whether any, and what, further accommodation was necessary to be afforded. He conceived that it was the wish of that House that the gentleman who was coming into office should have accommodations equal to those which had been given to the gentleman who was leaving it. The committee had examined into facts, made a report, and a bill had been brought in accordingly. The committee had informed them upon what principles they had acted; and it did not appear that they either intended to increase the splendor of the household of the PRESIDENT, nor to add to his salary. If any member could come forward and show that the report of the committee was erroneous, they should have some ground upon which to reject it. He had heard no man say this, and therefore all that had been offered on the subject ought not to weigh against that report. When the bill was before them on Saturday, there was a considerable majority in favor of it, and as they had no new information on the matter, he saw no reason for a change of opinion.
Some members, Mr. B. said, had held out an idea that they were about to give this money away, to enable the new PRESIDENT to live in the style of foreign Courts. If the inhabitants of this city had adopted this style, then it would be chargeable against the PRESIDENT, but not otherwise, since it was acknowledged he had not kept pace with them in this respect. The appropriating this money would only be converting it into so much public property; for, when his term of office should expire, he could not carry away a single article. It was not, therefore, giving away a farthing, but merely providing for our own convenience to enable the PRESIDENT to fill the office with comfort and reputation; and as they had nothing before them to show the sum too large, he saw no propriety in rejecting it, for the purpose of inserting any other.
Mr. RUTHERFORD said, if the House had committed an error one day, it would be well for them to correct it another. If they were to give $14,000 away on the present occasion, he thought they would commit a very serious error. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. SITGREAVES) had said many of the citizens of Philadelphia lived in a superior style to the PRESIDENT. If so, he would say they were very bad citizens, since it was proper that the citizens of this rising Republic should cultivate a simplicity of living and of manners.
Mr. MACON thought some of the arguments introduced on this occasion were very improper; such as the habits of economy or private fortune of the gentleman who was to succeed to the Presidential chair. They were about to settle a permanent principle, which it was proper to do at this time, before a new Presidency commenced. He knew nothing of the private property of the person who was to fill the office, nor had it any thing to do with the matter. The question was, whether they were to go over the same ground every four or eight years of furnishing the house of a new PRESIDENT? He did not wish that it should be so; he wished the salary to be the only consideration which the PRESIDENT should receive for his services. If it had not been settling a permanent principle, he should not perhaps have opposed it.
It had been said that the old PRESIDENT of Congress had a household furnished him, but he received no salary from the United States except his household. He considered this sum as an advance upon the salary paid to the PRESIDENT by the different States, and before any salary was fixed by the United States; but now, as an ample salary was paid to the PRESIDENT, he did not think such a provision should be continued. It was sometimes said that it was no matter what sum was appropriated, as, if it was not wanted, it would not be expended; but, he believed, whatever sum was appropriated would be expended; for he was not one of those who thought that revenue could not be found. He believed if the money was granted, it would be both found and spent.
Mr. SITGREAVES wished to correct the gentleman last up with respect to one fact. He had said the PRESIDENT of the old Congress had no salary. It was true that he did not receive any thing under that name, but there was a provision, not merely for the furniture of his house, but for the constant provision of it; and this was so considerable that from 1778 to 1779, in one year, eighty-three thousand dollars were paid for that purpose.
Mr. MACON wished to know what sort of money this was; he supposed it was in depreciated paper.
Mr. SITGREAVES was not certain what kind of money was meant.
Mr. JEREMIAH SMITH said, in settling an affair of this kind, it was proper to have respect to the office, and not to the man who was to fill it. He could himself consider the establishment of the PRESIDENT's household in no other light than in the nature of a compensation for his services, in the same way that he considered the privilege of franking, stationery, and newspapers, allowed the members of both Houses, to be such; because, if they were not allowed to them, they would have to purchase those articles themselves; and if furniture was not provided by Government for the house of the PRESIDENT, he must himself furnish it out of his salary, or from his private purse. To refuse to provide the necessary furniture would therefore be to reduce his salary; for it was true that this plan of presenting furniture to the PRESIDENT was adopted before the salary was fixed, so that it must have been considered as being additional to the salary. And was that salary, he asked, near so valuable now as it was when fixed? Certainly not. He trusted, therefore, they should not reduce it.
This sum, Mr. S. said, was mentioned, from a consideration that four years hence the seat of Government would be removed, and that then the furniture would be in a great degree useless. They, therefore, only recommended such a sum as they thought would be sufficient to put the furniture in a proper state for that term. He believed that fourteen thousand dollars would not do more than that.
Mr. MACON said he was always opposed to the privileges allowed to members of franking, &c. Gentlemen talked about a statement; he did not know what that might contain, he had not seen it; but he did not know how it could require fourteen thousand dollars to repair furniture which at first cost only thirteen thousand.
Mr. JEREMIAH SMITH said, the gentleman last up was inaccurate in his statement. The thirteen thousand dollars which were allowed for furniture for the late PRESIDENT, was in addition to the furniture which had already been in possession of the PRESIDENT of Congress.
Mr. SHERBURNE said, the question was with respect to the quantum of money to be granted, as every one seemed to allow that a certain sum was necessary. By having recourse to what was done for other officers of the Government, they might, perhaps, form an estimate of what would be reasonable on the present occasion. A practice had been established of allowing our Ministers to foreign countries a sum as an outfit equal to one year's salary; so that nine thousand dollars were allowed a Minister for this purpose, though it might happen that he would not be employed more than a few months in the service. He thought, therefore, that fourteen thousand dollars could not be thought too large a sum for the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, whose term of service was for four years, and which would go to his successor in office; whereas, the nine thousand dollars allowed to a foreign Minister were entirely at his disposal, though he might not be in the service more than a month.
Mr. AMES said, it appeared to him that it would be desirable to proceed according to precedent, as nearly as they could. It was not desirable to innovate or change the established order of things, except strong reasons existed for the change. On inquiring what had been the practice heretofore, they found the PRESIDENT of the old Congress, as well as the PRESIDENT now going out of office, had establishments made for their household similar to that now proposed. If they looked forward to that period when the seat of Government was to be removed, and considered the furniture which would be necessary for the house in the Federal city, it would be seen that there would be a necessity for a new establishment at that time, as it was evident that the present furniture or what might be purchased with the sum now contemplated, would be wholly inadequate to the furnishing of that house. He supposed an additional grant of twelve or fifteen thousand pounds would be necessary for that purpose.
We have chosen an elective Government, said Mr. A., and if it were meant to be kept pure, they must encourage the people to make choice of such men, without respect to fortune, as they think will serve them best, but if instead of providing a suitable household for the PRESIDENT, they left him to provide for himself in this respect, men of large fortune only could engage in this part of the public service. And would this, he asked, be doing honor to the Republican Government? He thought not.
The question for striking out was put and negatived--55 to 36. The committee then rose, and when the question was about to be put in the House--
Mr. GALLATIN said, the provision of the bill left it to the discretion of the PRESIDENT whether he would expend the whole of the money, or not. His opinion was, that the sum was too large; but the question for striking it out having been negatived, the expenditure must be left to the discretion of the PRESIDENT. He did not mean to go into any detail. He did not wish to place the gentleman coming into office in a worse situation than that of him who was going out; and as he felt no objection to leave it to the PRESIDENT to make use of the whole or a part of this money, as his discretion should direct, he should vote for the bill.
Mr. CLAIBORNE said, as provision had been made for furniture for the gentleman now in office, he was inclined to vote for the fourteen thousand dollars proposed now to be granted for the same purpose to the gentleman who was to succeed him.
Mr. HENDERSON wished to give his reasons for voting against this bill. He wished to place the PRESIDENT coming into office in as comfortable circumstances as he who was going out; but it appeared to him that the sum proposed was larger than necessary for this purpose. Indeed, said Mr. H., when he read an article of the constitution touching this subject, he had his doubts with respect to the constitutionality of the proceeding. That article said, "that the PRESIDENT should receive a compensation which should neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he should have been elected; and that he should not receive within that period any other emoluments from the United States, or any of them."
Mr. SITGREAVES believed there could be no doubt as to the constitutionality of the proposed grant of money, as the clause ran, "during the period for which he should have been elected," which would not prevent them from passing any number of acts before he went into office.
The question on the passing of the bill was then taken by yeas and nays, and stood 63 to 27, as follows:
YEAS.--Fisher Ames, Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, Joshua Coit, William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, George Dent, George Ege, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman, junior, Albert Gallatin, Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Edward Livingston, Samuel Lyman, William Lyman, James Madison, Francis Malbone, Andrew Moore, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John Nicholas, John Page, Josiah Parker, John Patton, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, John Richards, Samuel Sewall, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Thompson J. Skinner, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, Israel Smith, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, junior, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, John E. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams,
NAYS.--Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Jesse Franklin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, John Heath, Thomas Henderson, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Aaron Kitchell, Matthew Locke, Nathaniel Macon, John Milledge, Anthony New, Alexander D. Orr, Robert Rutherford, William Stradwick, and Richard Winn.
Military and Naval Appropriations.
The House went into a Committee of the Whole on this subject, when, after some discussion respecting the price of rations, Mr. GALLATIN insisting upon seventeen cents being a sufficiently high calculation, and Mr. W. SMITH abiding by the estimate of the War Department at twenty cents; the latter was agreed upon thirty-six to thirty-four, and the pay and subsistence of the Army was settled, but which has since undergone an alteration, owing to the two companies of cavalry being added by a new bill. The sum for forage and clothing was also agreed upon, but which afterwards, of course, from the above alteration, underwent an augmentation. The hospital department being under consideration,
Mr. W. SMITH moved to fill the blank with thirty thousand dollars.
Mr. GALLATIN moved to fill it with ten thousand. He said, they had this year had a statement of the expense of the Military Establishment, by which they found that the hospital department had cost six thousand nine hundred and five dollars. It had been the uniform practice of the House to appropriate from thirty to forty thousand dollars under this head, though the expense had never exceeded seven thousand; and to apply the surplus to other purposes. He thought it wrong to appropriate four times the sum necessary, and had therefore proposed to fill the blank with ten thousand dollars, which was fifty per cent. more than had ever been expended for the purpose.
Mr. PARKER believed than ten thousand dollars would be enough to pay for physic for the Army. Indeed he believed it was generally expended in wine and luxuries by the officers, and that little of it went to the use of the subordinates.
The question for ten thousand dollars was put and carried.
The blank for the Ordnance Department was filled with forty thousand dollars; and that for the fortifications of the ports and harbors of the United States with twenty-four thousand dollars.
Mr. GALLATIN moved to fill the blank for the Quartermaster's Department, the Indian Department, the defensive protection of the frontiers, bounties, and all the contingent expenses of the War Department, with three hundred thousand dollars.
Mr. VENABLE said, if the sum necessary for each of the above items could be specified, he would rather have it so expressed than have the whole in one sum.
Mr. W. SMITH said it would come to the same thing, if the several items were voted in an aggregate sum, as they were all contingent expenses. He should move to have the blank filled with four hundred and forty-six thousand dollars.
Mr. GALLATIN observed there were two motions before the committee: one to fill the blank with four hundred and forty-six thousand dollars, the other with three hundred thousand. He would observe that one of the items in this estimate, viz., that for the fortifications of West Point, ought not to be included under this head; but, as to the other items, he would mention, in answer to what had fallen from the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. VENABLE) what was the reason which had induced the committee to put them in one sum, which was to obtain the very object he had in view in wishing to have all the items stated separately.
It would be recollected that they had had a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, in which he said, "that the appropriations for the Military and Naval Establishments were considered as general grants of money; and, though they were to be accounted for according to law, yet it was the practice of the officers of the Treasury not to consider each appropriation as specific, but the whole as a general grant of money." This practice was making the law a mere farce, since the officers of the Treasury did not consider themselves as at all bound by the specific sums. He therefore concluded it to be proper to pass the law in such a manner as to confine the expense to the appropriation for the different items. It was said to be impossible to carry the law into execution on this principle. It was said there were a number of contingent expenses which could not be exactly ascertained, and that therefore it was necessary the officers of the Treasury should have a certain discretion given them to make use of the surplus of any item for which more than was necessary had been appropriated. He believed the uncertainty here mentioned existed, and therefore it had been concluded to be best to put the contingent articles together in one sum, in order to give bounds to the discretion of the Department.
Having given the reasons which caused the bill to be brought in in this shape, Mr. G. said he would mention the items upon which the sum he had proposed to fill up the blank was composed. For defensive protection, sixty thousand dollars; for the Quartermaster's Department, one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. This latter sum has been estimated at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, but upon what ground he was at a loss to know. The Army would now be fixed in garrison, and would not have to march from post to post. None of the reasons given last year for this expense would now apply; and he thought it unreasonable that the same sum should be allowed for this item which was allowed at the time when they were engaged in an Indian war.
In 1789, when we had eight hundred men in garrison, the expenses of this department was $11,076 In 1790, he did not recollect the number of troops, but not more, he believed 45,763 In 1791 92,223 In 1792 (in the height of the Indian war) 206,510 In 1793 178,602 In 1794 263,000 In 1795 317,647
What would be the expense of 1796, could not be exactly ascertained. It appeared by the statement which they had received that upwards of two hundred and four thousand dollars had been expended. Whether there were any further demands unsettled, he could not tell. It appeared, therefore, that the expense of that Department had increased from eleven thousand to three hundred thousand dollars. This had been owing to two causes--the increase of the Army, and by the Indian war. There had also been a great loss of horses from having forage to fetch great distances.
Mr. DEARBORN could see no reason for making the appropriation so large as had been proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina. It must be recollected that the Army was in garrison, where there were barrack-houses convenient for the officers and men, and contracts had been entered into for delivering provisions at the different forts, and there would therefore be a great deduction on account of the transportation, in which seven or eight hundred horses had been used up, and the horses on hand might also be sold. Camp equipage was a heavy article of expense, but which would not be wanted whilst the troops were in garrison. These two articles would of themselves make a very considerable part of the whole item. There would also be a saving in the purchase of horses, as the cavalry made more than half the expense. He did not think more than one hundred thousand dollars could be wanted under this head, except it were wanted for making new forts or fortifications. There would now be no necessity for building officers' houses, and huts for the soldiers for winter quarters. All these circumstances considered, he thought the sum he had mentioned would be sufficient.
The question for filling the blank with four hundred and forty-six thousand was put and negatived, there being only thirteen votes in favor of it. The sense of the committee was then taken upon three hundred thousand, and carried--there being 51 votes in favor of it.
Mr. W. SMITH then moved to add to the bill, "For the repairs of the fortifications of West Point, twenty thousand dollars."
Mr. COIT inquired if there was any estimate of this item.
Mr. GALLATIN said there was no estimate respecting West Point.
Mr. W. SMITH said there was an estimate for Niagara, Oswego, Detroit, &c., which might include West Point, he proposed therefore to change the motion, and insert "Niagara, Oswego, Detroit, &c.," which would include West Point, if necessary.
Mr. GALLATIN wished the gentleman from South Carolina to say whether he had any information with respect to West Point.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he had no particular information on the subject, but as it was of importance the works there should be very complete, he thought it prudent to grant something for that object.
Mr. GALLATIN hoped the proposition would be rejected. There was no necessity for repairing the fortifications of the posts mentioned more than any other of the forts upon the Lakes. They knew nothing of them, but that they were too large for the garrisons in them; but he believed if they once begun to appropriate money for this purpose, it would become a yearly expense, And whilst they had been parsimonious with respect to the ports and harbors of the United States, having only appropriated twenty-four thousand dollars to that purpose, he could see no reason for granting twenty thousand dollars for repairing the forts of Niagara, Oswego, and Detroit, against a few Indians; as it was well known that a block-house was as good a fortification against the Indians as any other. When the regiment was raised to go and take possession of that country, they built all their forts as they went along, without any expense, except the price of a few tools. He hoped, therefore, they should not by voting for this sum, introduce a new item of expense into their annual appropriations.
Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the gentleman last up, that enough had not been appropriated for the defence of the ports and harbors of the United States; but if they had done wrong in one instance, it was no rule why they should continue to do so. He thought it very important that the forts he had mentioned should be so secured at least as that they should not go to ruin. Under this item was included West Point, which was a fort of great consequence; and he would rather forty thousand dollars were appropriated than twenty thousand for this purpose.
Mr. DEARBORN said, as far as the proposition related to Niagara, Oswego, and Detroit, he thought it improper to appropriate money for their defence. He believed it would require a year or two to know what was necessary to be done there. At Niagara, the works were large enough for six or seven thousand men, and it would become a question whether they should be reduced, or kept up as they were; at Oswego, nothing more could be necessary than a block-house. It was true, there were considerable works there, but until it was decided what they should do with them, it would be improper to appropriate money for their repair. The same thing might be said of Detroit. He had no idea that the PRESIDENT could have information from those places of what was necessary. Whatever temporary repair might be required there, the troops themselves would be able to effect. As to West Point, he did not know any thing about it, except that it was a place of consequence; he also knew that a great deal of money had been laid out upon it. He hoped they should get into a new system with respect to the defence of our ports and harbors; and until that was done, he should be against granting any considerable sum for this purpose. If gentlemen were in possession of any information on the subject, he perhaps might be induced to vote for a small sum: but not until he knew more of the matter.
Mr. LIVINGSTON spoke of the importance of the fort at West Point, and of the necessity of keeping it in proper repair.
Mr. COIT said, the question seemed to have taken a new turn. He presumed that West Point was not in the idea of the Secretary of War when he made the estimate upon which this bill was founded. If it had been, it would have been very improper to have begun with Oswego, and include West Point in the et cetera. In June, 1796, 20,000 dollars, he said, were appropriated for the repairs of this fort, and they had not been informed that it had been expended.
Mr. GALLATIN said, there had been 7,000 dollars expended at West Point; the other 13,000 dollars were not intended for that fort. The present appropriation was doubtless intended for the forts mentioned, and those in the same quarter. If any thing was wanted for West Point, a distinct proposition should come before them for that purpose.
Mr. W. SMITH observed that the gentleman last up had stated that only 7,000 dollars had been expended at West Point; that was only the amount which had been expended at the time the estimate was made; but the whole might have been since laid out, as then only 520,000 dollars of the appropriation of the Military Establishment had been expended.
Mr. GALLATIN said, that the total expenditure of the estimate alluded to was 1,280,479 dollars.
The question was put and negatived, there being only 19 votes in favor of it.
The committee then rose and had leave to sit again.
TUESDAY, February 28.
Algerine Captives: Ransom.
The Secretary of State, to whom was referred the petitions of George Smith and John Robertson, who prayed for a repayment of the money which they had themselves paid for their ransom from Algerine slavery, reported that the ransom of George Smith cost $2,426, of which Colonel Humphreys had paid $1,526, and George Smith the remainder; that by the late return of our citizens from Algiers, the expense attending the redemption of each man was ascertained to be $2,396, independent of the expense of the general negotiation, and allowing for small inaccuracies on account of some expenses which could not at present be ascertained. He recommends, therefore, that George Smith have paid him $873, which, with the sum paid by Colonel Humphreys, would make about $2,400. John Robinson paid for his own ransom $1,518, the interest upon which came to $516; the Secretary therefore recommends that $2,034 be paid to him.
On motion of Mr. SWANWICK, this report was referred to a select committee, viz: Messrs. SWANWICK, BLOUNT, COIT, SEWALL, and PARKER.
General Appropriation Bill.
The amendments from the Senate to the bill making appropriations for the support of Government for the year 1797, were taken up and agreed to, as also those to the bill laying additional duties on sundry articles of impost. The amendments which were agreed to were to add to white cotton goods, "velvets and velverets, whether printed, stained, colored, or otherwise, and all muslins and muslinets, two and a half per cent." And also a new section, enacting that an addition of 10 per cent. should be laid upon these articles when imported in ships or vessels not of the United States. The duties are to take place after the 31st of December next.
Military and Naval Appropriations.
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Military and Naval Appropriations; when, the pay and subsistence of three captains in the Naval department being under consideration--
Mr. SWANWICK thought it would be necessary to have a laborer or two employed to take care of the vessels and materials.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the estimate for the captains was $4,200; if the sum was made $5,000, there would be sufficient for the payment of any laborers which might be necessary. Agreed to.
The blank for the payment of Military Pensions was agreed to be filled with $96,350.
And for making good the deficiencies of the Military Establishment of 1796, $76,312.
Also, for the payment of the expedition of General Sevier into the Cherokee nation, $22,816.
The committee now rose, and had leave to sit again.
Executive Veto on the Army Bill.
The following Message, in writing, was received from the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, containing his objections to the bill for fixing the Military Establishment:
Gentlemen of the House of Representatives:
Having maturely considered the bill to alter and amend an act, entitled "An act to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment of the United States," which was presented to me on the twenty-second day of this month, I now return it to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with my objections.
First. If the bill passes into a law, the two companies of light dragoons will be, from that moment, legally out of service, though they will continue afterwards actually in the service; and for their services during this interval, namely, from the time of legal to the time of actual discharge, it will not be lawful to pay them, unless some future provision be made by law. Though they may be discharged at the pleasure of Congress, in justice they ought to receive their pay, not only to the time of passing the law, but at least to the time of their actual discharge.
Secondly. It will be inconvenient and injurious to the public to dismiss the light dragoons as soon as notice of the law can be conveyed to them, one of the companies having been lately destined to a necessary and important service.
Thirdly. The companies of light dragoons consist of one hundred and twenty-six non-commissioned officers and privates, who are bound to serve as dismounted dragoons when ordered so to do. They have received, in bounties, about two thousand dollars; one of them is completely equipped, and above half of the non-commissioned officers and privates have yet to serve more than one-third of the time of their enlistment; and, besides, there will, in the course of the year, be a considerable deficiency in the complement of infantry intended to be continued. Under these circumstances, to discharge the dragoons does not seem to comport with economy.
Fourthly. It is generally agreed that some cavalry, either militia or regular, will be necessary; and, according to the best information I have been able to obtain, it is my opinion that the latter will be less expensive and more useful than the former in preserving peace between the frontier settlers and the Indians, and, therefore, a part of the Military Establishment should consist of cavalry.
G. WASHINGTON.
UNITED STATES, February 28, 1797.
On motion,
"Resolved, That to-morrow be assigned for the reconsideration of the said bill, in the mode prescribed by the Constitution of the United States."
The question to concur was put and carried--40 to 37.
WEDNESDAY, March 1.
Military Establishment.
Mr. GALLATIN wished the bill for fixing the Military Establishment, which had been returned by the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, with his objections, to be taken up.
Mr. W. SMITH hoped this subject would be taken up, but before it was entered upon, he wished the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from the consideration of it, as he found, in a former instance of a similar kind, the business had been settled in the House. The committee was accordingly discharged. The House then proceeded to reconsider the bill, agreeably to the direction of the constitution. The bill was first read, and then the objections of the PRESIDENT.
The SPEAKER then read the clause in the constitution which directs the proceedings on such an occasion, and which says, that in case two-thirds of the House wherein it originated shall be in favor of passing the bill, it shall be sent to the other, and if two-thirds of that House be also in favor of it, it shall become a law. The votes of both Houses to be determined by yeas and nays.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, he meant to vote against the bill, but he did not wish to stand charged with refusing to pay the men for the time they were in service. He thought this bill was by no means liable to a charge of this kind; as it could scarcely be supposed that, at the time they were making a voluntary gift of $100 to every officer discharged, the Legislature meant to defraud the men of their pay.
Mr. W. SMITH did not see any necessity for the observations of the gentleman from Virginia. There was nothing in the Message of the PRESIDENT which charged that House with an intention to defraud the men of their pay. Whatever was the design of gentlemen, this was not the charge. But certain it was that this would be the result of the bill, and it would be six weeks or two months before they could be notified that the act was passed. It was the legal opinion of the Attorney General, therefore, that they would not be entitled to pay during that time.
Mr. NICHOLAS was sorry that the gentleman from South Carolina and he did not think alike on the subject; he thought the objections he had made were necessary, and he had made them for the purpose stated. He thought the PRESIDENT ought not to have doubted their willingness to have allowed the pay in question. He was of opinion the House had given some extraordinary proofs of their liberality this session; amongst other proofs of this, they had determined to appropriate money for the building of a thirty-six gun frigate, which he had caused to be built without authority. But the pay of these men was so much a point of law, that he believed the men would have been entitled to pay.
Mr. W. SMITH said, their having agreed to give each of the officers $100, without mentioning the men, rather went against the gentleman's conclusion; because, if any thing had been intended to have been given to them, they would also have been mentioned.
Mr. WILLIAMS was sorry that some things had not been more attended to, when that bill was under consideration; and, although there would be a difficulty respecting the Brigadier General and Staff, yet he thought the objections well founded, and would vote against the passing of the bill, in order that a new one might be brought in to avoid the objections, from the demands lately made for the protection of the frontiers of Georgia and Tennessee, which amounted to upwards of $300,000; he fully agreed with the PRESIDENT that it would be less expense to keep up the two companies of dragoons than to employ militia horse.
The yeas and nays were then taken, and stood 55 to 26.
The bill being accordingly lost, Mr. NICHOLAS moved that a committee be appointed to bring in a new bill, which being agreed to, a new bill was reported (exactly the same as the former, except an omission of the parts objected to by the PRESIDENT.) It was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, and afterwards passed.
Case of Hanging Maw.
Mr. BLOUNT called for the order of the day on the report of the Committee of Claims on the petition of the widow of the late Scollacuttaw, or Hanging Maw. The House accordingly went into a committee thereon, when the report was read, as follows:
"That the complaints against the conduct of one John Beard, and a number of armed men, who, she states, in the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-three, contrary to law and the good faith of Government, attacked the dwelling-house of the petitioner and husband, killed and wounded a number of well-disposed Indians; burnt, and destroyed, and carried away their property, and wounded the petitioner. She now prays that some provision may be made for her.
"After examining the statement made by the petitioner, and the facts upon which she rests her present application, the committee have found some difficulty in deciding what measures would be most advisable for the House to adopt.
"Previous to the attack on the Hanging Maw, the frontier settlers of Tennessee and the Indians in that quarter had been guilty of mutual acts of aggression and hostility. A party of the Indians had killed some settlers; their trail was discovered, conducting across the Tennessee--this circumstance induced a belief in their pursuers that the Hanging Maw had been concerned in that business, and occasioned his being wounded, and the misfortunes complained of by his widow. The general opinion, however, represents the Hanging Maw as having been uniformly friendly to the settlers; as vigilant to apprise them of the approach of banditti; and constant in his exertions, on all occasions, to compose difficulties between them and his nation; and, withal, as possessing considerable influence over the Indians. The same disposition is also attributed to his widow, the present petitioner; who, instead of exciting her people to acts of retaliation, has abated nothing in her friendship to the white people.
"All these circumstances seem to countenance, if not to require for her a pension from the Government, or some other relief from the Legislature. Such a provision might also be considered as extending its influence beyond the particular object; or, as an inciting cause to other Indians to pursue a similar line of conduct, under circumstances alike cruel and distressing, should they happen.
"But, on the other hand, it is to be considered that there are citizens on the frontiers who have suffered injuries as cruel, and deprivations as severe by the Indians; and who have been thereby left in situations of distress that would equally call for assistance from the Legislature. Questions arise whether both descriptions of sufferers ought not to be provided for? Whether the abilities of Government would be competent to meet all possible claims of this nature? And whether help can be extended by law to the one, and consistently refused to the other?
"It may be said that those who settle on the frontiers voluntarily assume all the risks and dangers attached to that position; and, therefore can have no just claim upon the Government for consequences resulting from their choice; whilst, on the contrary, policy requires that the minds of the Indians, who may be roused to hostility by acts of the settlers, should be quieted by small pecuniary interpositions.
"Under these views of the subject, the committee have hesitated what report to make; but, upon the whole, as the authority vested in the Executive Department is competent to meet this claim; and should the petitioner, from her sufferings and her attachment to the United States, appear to the Executive to be entitled to any annual relief, as it may be afforded out of the appropriations for contingent expenses in the Indian Department, without any interference of the Legislature, and as this mode will probably involve the fewest difficulties, the committee think she should apply to that department; and that the prayer of her petition ought not to be granted."[12]
The committee reported their agreement with the resolution reported from the Committee of Claims.
The question was taken, that the House do agree with the Committee of the whole House in their agreement to the said report, and resolved in the affirmative.
THURSDAY, March 2.
The bill for the relief of American seamen was read the third time and passed.
Military Appropriations.
On the motion of Mr. W. SMITH, the House went into a committee of the Whole on the bill making appropriation for the Military Establishment, when the following items were agreed to without debate:
For the payment of the army, $256,450 For the subsistence of the officers, 47,395 For the subsistence of the non-commissioned officers and privates, 245,283 For forage, 14,904 For clothing, 83,050
Mr. W. SMITH then proposed to insert a new item, in consequence of the bill just passed, "For the purchase of horses and the equipment of the cavalry, $16,085."
Mr. GALLATIN said, the items which had been agreed to were upon the ground of an increase of 126 dragoons which was not in the former bill. The item now under consideration went to provide horses and equipments for an additional company of cavalry. It appeared that this company was heretofore without either, so that they must have been employed as dismounted dragoons; and if they now appropriated the sum before them, they would, in fact, add a company of horse to the establishment. He believed it to be the general opinion that they had cavalry sufficient at present; indeed, it was the opinion of a large majority of that House that none were necessary; but if they did appropriate for any, he thought they ought not to go beyond the present establishment.
Mr. W. SMITH said, if they refused to make the appropriation under consideration, they declared that one of the two companies of cavalry should act as infantry. By the bill passed yesterday, it was left altogether to the option of the PRESIDENT to employ them either as cavalry or infantry: but if this appropriation was withheld, he would be under the necessity of employing them as infantry only, and this House would now exercise a discretion which only yesterday they had vested in the Executive.
It would be observed, that, in the message of the PRESIDENT, he had fully stated the reasons why dragoons would be requisite. The business upon which one of the companies was at present employed was to escort the Commissioners employed in running the boundary lines betwixt the territory of the United States and the Indians; the other was indispensable for the protection of the frontiers.
What, Mr. S. asked, would be the consequence of refusing this appropriation? One of the companies of dragoons would be obliged to act as infantry, and Government would be compelled to employ militia-horse at a great expense. If this was economy, he was mistaken in his ideas of economy. The sum was conformable to the estimate which he had received from the War Office.
Mr. HARTLEY was in favor of the appropriation, that the PRESIDENT might be at full liberty to employ the troops on foot or on horse-back, according as the service might require.
Mr. NICHOLAS thought, while they were making appropriations, this subject might as well be included. If these men were to be kept, they ought to be properly equipped. He said it was the opinion of the PRESIDENT and the Secretary of War that cavalry was necessary, and therefore he had concluded it would be proper, and wished them to be kept up, so as to be called into service whenever necessary.
Mr. MILLEDGE thought there was great need of cavalry; it would be an object of policy, as, by information he had received from the Governor of Georgia, (which he had in his hand, and which was corroborated by a late Governor,) horse were absolutely necessary--he thought three companies--on the frontier. He therefore was in favor of the appropriation.
Mr. VARNUM had no doubt but the gentleman from Georgia, and every gentleman in the House, would be glad to have horse and infantry too kept up in their State: every part would be glad to have the public money expended upon it. He could not see why a body of cavalry should be kept up in a time of peace. He thought the Legislature had as good a right to judge as any person, notwithstanding the authorities produced to sanction the appropriation. Mr. V. had no doubt, if this was granted, that application would soon be made again for a similar purpose. He hoped this appropriation would not take place; it would be a small saving, and might as well be made, as there was so much want of it. He could have wished the troops reduced to two regiments, which he thought quite sufficient for a Peace Establishment. He hoped the PRESIDENT's ideas on the subject would not obtain to govern the decisions of the House, as we have the power, said he, to withhold appropriations; and what gentlemen who were locally concerned should say, he could not be guided by; as soldiers would consume their produce and spend money amongst them, consequently they were interested.
Mr. CRAIK really lamented that the gentleman had not been in the House yesterday, at the time the subject was more under consideration: he might then have inveighed against the PRESIDENT. The observations might have come with more propriety, if they had been made before the bill passed, and when under discussion; but, after a law has passed the proper authorities--after it has been resolved to have these troops of horse--to say, we will not appropriate money to carry it into effect, is strange conduct. If the determination of the gentleman was to oppose the bill, he should have used every means to that purpose, and if not effectual, at least to suffer others to enjoy their will--especially a majority. For the sake of consistency, he hoped the gentleman would withdraw his opposition, and not in this side-way try to defeat the operation of a bill which has passed. The cavalry were voted because they were supposed to be necessary, and now a gentleman comes forward, endeavoring to excite the jealousy of the House on the Executive's meddling with the Military Establishment. Mr. C. said he was pleased that the PRESIDENT had refused it, if it was only to convince some gentlemen that he had power to refuse that or any other bill. [Here Mr. DENT asked the gentleman if he was in order.] Mr. CRAIK said he only wished to prove the inconsistency of the member's conduct. He thought the House should not betray a want of consistency. He believed, from the statement of the member from Georgia, and the reasons of the PRESIDENT, that horse were necessary, and he therefore should wish the appropriation to be passed.
Mr. KITCHELL said, gentlemen seemed to be mistaken; they were continually alluding to the law passed yesterday. There was not a word about two troops of horse yesterday. All we then said, was, that we would not say there should not be two troops of horse; the Message of the PRESIDENT did not say that two troops should be mounted, nor do I say, said Mr. K., that horse are not necessary; I think some are necessary; but the inquiry seemed to be, now, whether the House were to vote for more.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the gentleman's observations were very extraordinary; he surely could not have attended to the subject, to say that the House had not passed the law authorizing two troops of horse. We have a law in force, said he, to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment, in which we authorize the PRESIDENT to employ the two troops of dragoons, to serve either on horse or foot at his discretion. The bill we sent up yesterday does not repeal that law, and yet gentlemen would now come forward to oppose the appropriation, and determine they shall act on foot. He could not think with what propriety the restriction could be made as the gentleman from Massachusetts wishes, nor could he think how the gentleman from Jersey had attended. Should we now say they should be at our direction, and that we would not grant money without? This would be strange conduct--an assumption of power which he hoped the House would never arrogate.
Mr. KITCHELL said his meaning was, that the horse were not established yesterday, but before.
Mr. HARTLEY said it appeared, from good testimony, that the troops were requisite to save the people on the frontiers from the depredations of the Indians; he thought, therefore, that they having been established before, the House were bound to make the appropriation to give effect, or show the great inconsistency.
Mr. NICHOLAS said it was not his intention to vote for these men at all; but if they must have them, perhaps it would be most economical to equip them. With respect to their power of withholding the appropriation, he had no doubt; and though they had yesterday passed a law establishing two companies of cavalry, it was in the power of that House, of the Senate, or of the PRESIDENT, to refuse an appropriation. This was the sense of the constitution. When the bill came before the House, he should give his negative to the additional horse; for, if they were always to keep up the same number of men, whether in war or peace, except two-thirds of both Houses were found to oppose the will of the PRESIDENT, they might bid adieu to all restraint upon Executive power, and count upon a military Government, if ever an Executive should be found whose will it should be to make it so. If these were to be kept up, he would still say the House had better go to $100,000 expense to mount them on horse-back.
Mr. VARNUM said it was observed by gentlemen that those troops were not mounted; if so, there must have been a very lavish waste of money. However that might be, gentlemen who state this matter ought to state it fairly. They ought not to say that two companies of cavalry were yesterday voted. No, they were part of the old War Establishment. It was true, the House had not the power to repeal the law; but one thing was in their power, and that they ought to do, if they see this part of the standing army necessary. The constitution returns the power to act on it once in every two years to each branch of the Legislature. The House, he thought, had good right to exercise their own opinion on the necessity of mounting these men. It was not in the power of one branch to repeal the law which keeps these men, but we ought to consider whether they are to be put in the same situation as in time of war. Mr. V. said he discharged his duty in voting against this appropriation. The House had a right to judge, and it was not in the power of the PRESIDENT to act for them.
Mr. HEATH said that the subject had been fully discussed, and therefore he should only observe, that, from the authority which had recommended the mounting of these cavalry, he should vote for the appropriation.
Mr. MILLEDGE repeated his arguments on the local situation of the country, and asserted the absolute necessity of the troops.
The motion was put and carried--there being 56 in favor of it.
Naval Appropriations.
Mr. W. SMITH then proposed to add $172,000 for finishing the frigates United States, Constitution, and Constellation.
Mr. NICHOLAS said he should be against appropriating so large a sum for this purpose. It was the sense of the House, on a former occasion, that it would be proper to appropriate such a sum as should put them in such a situation as to secure them from injury, but to stop short of making them fit for sea, that the expense of manning them might be avoided.
Mr. SWANWICK said a new view of the subject seemed to be brought forward at present. Before, they had determined to finish the frigates; but now, they were not to finish them, lest they should be manned, but to finish them in part only. A gentleman yesterday said, when speaking on the subject of the PRESIDENT's Message, that he could not suppose they would have refused to pay the soldiers, though there might be some deficiency in the expression of the act; and might he not suppose, said Mr. S., if the frigates were so nearly finished, he might go on to finish them, and trust to the Legislature to furnish the money? These frigates, he said, were a very extraordinary concern. It seemed as if it was only when it was to be made a present of to Algiers, that a frigate could be finished, and not when it was for the protection of our own commerce. He trusted, however, that there would not be a majority found in that House who would vote against finishing the frigates: as to manning them, that would remain for a future consideration.
Mr. PARKER said, it would require all the money which had been named for finishing the frigates, without rigging, though there would be a considerable quantity of materials left on hand. There need be no apprehension of their being manned, whilst seamen's wages remained at the price they were, because men could not be got on the terms stipulated in the law for this purpose. If a smaller sum than was mentioned were to be granted, they might as well give nothing.
Mr. SITGREAVES supposed the blank was now proposed to be filled with the same sum which had been agreed upon on a former occasion. If this were the case, it ought to dissipate the fears of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. NICHOLAS,) as it was well known that the sum was predicated upon a supposition that the frigates were not to be manned. If they were to be manned, a further appropriation would certainly be necessary.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, it appeared to him that if all gentlemen were agreed that this business should go no further than the building of the frigates, they could have no hesitation to leave undone some of the internal finishing work of the vessels; if they did not wish to put them into such a situation as that they might force them into service upon the spur of an alarm, they could have no objection to their being left in such a situation as to be perfectly secure, but not finished fit for sea.
Mr. SITGREAVES said this subject had heretofore undergone a very full discussion. A motion was then made merely to finish the hulls, which was negatived. It was then said that contracts were made for all the materials, and that except the frigates were finished, the engagements which had been entered into could not be fulfilled. But there was another security against the danger apprehended. They had lately come to a determination to make all appropriations specific and particular. What was the language of the present appropriation? It was for finishing the frigates, not for manning them. If it had been said to be for carrying into effect the law for the Naval Establishment, there might have been some little ground for apprehension; but, as it now stood, the Executive could not proceed to man the vessels.
Mr. NICHOLAS said, when they voted the sum now asked for finishing the frigates, the expenditure was accompanied by a law to repeal the manning clause of the former act. He had made inquiries respecting contracts, and found the money in hand was equal to the fulfilment of them; if there had been any others, he supposed they should have heard of them. He again said there were many ornamental parts of the vessels which might be as well thrown upon the expense of next year as of this.
Mr. SWANWICK said, if Government could have had foresight sufficient to have known that there would have been any objections made to the finishing of the frigates, they would certainly not have entered into any contracts to that extent, but they could not possibly do this. He wished, if gentlemen were determined the frigates should not be made use of, that they would say at once they should be sold on the stocks. With respect to manning of them from the money proposed to be appropriated, that was impossible, and he saw no reason for making the business doubly sure by any other precaution.
Mr. HOLLAND said it was, with great propriety, intended by many members in the House to keep the frigates in such a state as to prevent their being manned. If we appropriate to finish them, said he, we shall be exposed to all the difficulties depicted by the gentleman from Pennsylvania; for some way would be devised to procure and pay men, if the House put it in the power of the Executive to do it: therefore he hoped, to avoid all that trouble and expense, they would not vote to finish them. For what purpose, said he, should they be finished, unless it were intended to man them? To avoid every danger of that kind, he should vote against the sum proposed.
Mr. HARTLEY said, that last year the six frigates which had been before voted for were reduced to three, with intent to complete them. Was it not probable then, he would ask, that the PRESIDENT would proceed to complete those frigates, according to the power given him? Was it not to be supposed that contracts were entered into for that purpose? No person could suppose but contracts were made. Then certainly the House ought not to expose the Executive to the ridiculous situation of receding from his contracts! They would not be finished before next session, and therefore no danger of equipping could be apprehended. It may be necessary to use them, but at any rate it would be running no risk to have them finished, as they could not be manned by this appropriation.
Mr. GALLATIN said, there seemed to be involved in the present consideration the question whether or not we should have a Navy. As to himself, he should vote against the present appropriation, because if the frigates were completely finished, he should fear they would get to sea. When they had on a former occasion consented to finish them, it was under the condition of the law for manning being repealed; but they now stood upon new ground. Mr. G. said he had been charged with inconsistency of opinion, from having before said that he thought the PRESIDENT would not be authorized to proceed in the manning of the vessels under the present law, whilst he was now apprehensive that he might do so. He wished to be on sure ground. He did not know but the PRESIDENT might put a different construction upon the law from him. Indeed, from the experience they had had of Presidential discretion, they need not be surprised if the vessels were sent to sea, though no appropriation was made for the purpose, should the PRESIDENT suppose there was any plea for doing so. As a proof of this power having been exercised heretofore, Mr. G. referred to the Western insurrection. In that case, he said, no appropriation was made for the expense; but the law authorizes the PRESIDENT to call out the militia when he shall see occasion to do so; he called them out, and got money from the Treasury. Indeed, the building of a frigate for Algiers, without any authority, and the pledging of the faith of the nation to pay the expense of the law-suits of our citizens in London, were strong proofs of what the Executive could do.
Mr. G. said he did not mean to bring into view any arguments relative to the propriety of establishing a Navy in this country. He should vote against the present motion, because he did not wish to see the frigates at sea, and because he conceived a Navy to be prejudicial to the true interests of this country. Something had been said about contracts, but he did not believe any existed. They had last year been told the same thing. Any person reading the statements which had been furnished to them, would perceive that the business was not done by any contract, but that men were employed by Government, and regular wages paid to them. The frigate which had been built for Algiers had been built by contract, they had an estimate of it at so much a ton, but this was not the case with respect to any other of the frigates.
Mr. W. SMITH did not wish to go into a long debate on the subject, when they had so much business before them, in order to show whether it was proper for this country to have a Navy or not; the only question now was, whether they ought to appropriate money for finishing the three frigates. If they did not do it, all the money which had been already expended would probably be lost. The only objection to the doing of this seemed to arise from a fear that the vessels would be manned, though when this subject was before them, the other day, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GALLATIN) moved to postpone the bill relative to the repealing or suspending the law for manning the vessels till next session, from an opinion that, by the present law, the PRESIDENT was not authorized to man them. That gentleman seemed now, however, in contradiction to himself, to fear the PRESIDENT would put a different construction upon the law: if he did not believe the PRESIDENT would violate the law, he could not account for his refusing now to vote the money which was merely necessary to finish the vessels. Mr. S. read an extract from the report of the Secretary of War, to show the forward state in which the vessels were, and added, that they were bound in duty to finish them, were it only to prevent the loss of the money already expended upon them.
Mr. DEARBORN observed, that if he was convinced, from the documents which had been laid before them, that the sum now asked for was necessary merely to finish the frigates, he should not hesitate to vote for it; but it was not a little extraordinary that the gentlemen on that committee (not even the Chairman, who seemed to have the business so much at heart) could not say whether this sum was necessary for finishing and rigging, or finishing without rigging, or for finishing, rigging, and manning. The frigate building in this city, the captain had told him, was calculated in point of size to carry 62 guns, instead of 44; which was one of the reasons they had cost so much more than they had been estimated at. Mr. D. said, he suspected that the sum proposed would not only be sufficient to finish the hulls, but to rig and fit the vessels for sea, and until he had more satisfaction on the subject he could not consent to give his vote for it.
Mr. KITTERA observed, that gentlemen first said, that under the present law, the PRESIDENT could not proceed to man and send the vessels to sea, but now they were apprehensive this might be done, though no appropriation was made for the purpose. This, he thought, somewhat inconsistent; but he believed whilst thirty dollars a month was given to seamen by merchants, and their law only authorized eleven to be given, there was not much to be feared on this head.
Mr. AMES said, that gentlemen opposed to the finishing of the frigates, seemed to be also opposed to all ideas of this country ever becoming a naval power; the necessity of this, he was persuaded, would ere long appear. It was not to be supposed that a nation whose commerce was greater than that of any other, except Great Britain, should go on long without a naval protection; and he believed the more strenuous the opposition shown against this measure, the sooner it would be accomplished; he was not therefore displeased to see the present violent opposition to every thing which looked towards this object.