Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (11 of 26): Hearings Vol. XI (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she was real attractive and I am attracted to little girls, you know, I just love them. Of course, I love little boys, too, you understand, because I've got one of them, but little girls--mine--I used to sew for them and I have always wanted another little girl and I always made over little girls more so than I did little boys, that that little girl, as well as I remember, she had straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a real cute child, but I would really like to meet with them again and I would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. She would remember it; I'm sure that she would remember it. There isn't any doubt in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then, we will meet with you again at 9 o'clock on Friday morning.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right.

Mr. LIEBELER. By the way, how long would you say that the husband and wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second time?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, 30 or 40 minutes--maybe.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was during the time that they were looking at furniture?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is: From the time that he went back out and she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I'd say 30 or 40 minutes, which is a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and did she seem interested in any of the furniture--what did she do during this 30 or 40 minute period?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she walked back where we were and I had moved some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and as well as I remember, I had a little red maple suite back there and I had some dark walnut suites and I was showing them used furniture because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she stood there and looked and, like I say, the little girl was whining around and I would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of look up and down but I never did see her--I never did catch her but I thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the store and I stayed back there and I talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that there was any hostility between these two people that they weren't getting along too well?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she just didn't say anything. She wasn't interested in what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know, and if they were--well--I just don't know, or I would say that there was any misunderstanding--there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. It wouldn't be like if I was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for me. I believe I would be more pleasant, but you know, I guess she just didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture and I believe he went back to the car and told her to get out.

Mr. LIEBELER. She just didn't seem to be very interested in that furniture?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; she didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in and spent 30 or 40 minutes looking at furniture in a store and they never exchanged one single word between each other?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; not one single word.

Mr. LIEBELER. That just almost defies ordinary human experience; doesn't it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Wouldn't you say that--usually?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had anything like that. They usually agree or disagree and they usually exchange a few words.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they usually exchange a few words.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I never had an occasion like that--that's the reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. I have waited on a lot of people in 10 years and I have had an awful lot of people come in my store. Some of them I would recognize and some of them I wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of this--you just knew it was them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that Oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a plunger--did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking for a plunger?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It might have been a plunger. Like I say, I don't know a thing in the world about guns. It could have been a plunger. We have discussed that since then and I have never said what it was that he was looking for--whatever he had--he had in his hands. I mean, he had something in his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing in the store when he walked out and they got in the car?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe I walked back up to where my cash--in my cash stand and it hit me about right here and I could lean on it and my candy stand--I would have had to walk around another bar to have gotten to the candy because I couldn't reach over and get it and I was standing right like this and I was looking down on them and this bar hit me about right here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. About waist high?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. And I couldn't have went inside unless I had turned and walked back around and that's as far as I got--was the cash register.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see the car from where you were standing?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I could have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see it drive east down Irving Boulevard against the traffic?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say that I did see it drive east--I don't believe--we talked about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who did?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I might have made a statement one time about that, but right now, I wouldn't say he did. There's too many cars that drove up there that did go the wrong way, but I would say it was a blue and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth--it was something with fins on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say we discussed it--what do you mean by that--who is "we"?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Mrs. Hunter and I, you know, now as far as going back down the wrong way on that street--I wouldn't swear that the man did and I don't think that I ever made the statement that he drove off, because I don't know that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. I quote the FBI report of your interview on December 14, 1963: "On leaving the Furniture Mart (second hand furniture store) the Oswalds made a =U=-turn and left driving against traffic on East Irving Boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a 1956 or 1957 two-tone blue and white Ford or Plymouth." Do you remember telling the agents that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at that time that they did go, but right now--I have talked with Mrs. Hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went on the one way street the wrong way. Now, I might have said it at that time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it--that I could be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you know, I mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and acted like that for that length of time, you know, that I'm not going to swear that he went the wrong way and I'm not going to say that he drove that car off from there. Like I say, it wasn't that important to me to know that at that time because I didn't know I was going to have to--if I had--I would have been more specific about it, but I was in a position where I could have seen it, but we remarked after he left about what I had said and I got no comment about it from her, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much and we will see you Friday morning.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD, EDITH WHITWORTH, AND GERTRUDE HUNTER

The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Present were June Oswald and Rachel Oswald, children of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; William A. McKenzie and Henry Baer, counsel for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; Peter Paul Gregory, interpreter; and Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service.

[Note.--The asterisk represents a response by Marina Oswald without assistance of the interpreter. All other responses shown for Marina Oswald were through the interpreter.]

Mr. LIEBELER. May the record show, Marina, that you have previously been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the Commission in Washington?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you will regard the testimony that you are going to give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to the Commission, and I assume you will regard yourself as being under oath as you did before the Commission?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that Marina has indicated she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The basic purpose for your presence here this morning relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store in Irving, Tex., in early November with your two children and with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. OSWALD. [No response.]

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you had previously testified about this and have told the Commission that you were not in the store at that time. We want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if they were mistaken. Is that agreeable with you, Marina?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I can remember--I'm sure, I never forget and the baby is just 2 weeks. I would like to know under what circumstances these two ladies saw me at that particular time?

Mr. McKENZIE. And furthermore, where the store is located?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter have come into the room [reporter's note: 11:10 a.m.], and let the record further show that they have both previously testified that sometime in early November 1963, they saw Marina and the two children and Lee Oswald in a furniture store located on East Irving Boulevard in Irving, Tex.

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the name of the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I will ask Mrs. Whitworth, who was the operator of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store generally for Marina and its name.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The store was known as the Furniture Mart. The name was clearly on it, and it was located at 149 East Irving Boulevard. That's at the corner of Jefferson and Irving Boulevard on the north side of the street and in the same block with the bank. In fact, the back of it was up to the Bank & Trust there and it looked like at one time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, because we had new and used furniture. This clear enough?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't be material to me. I wouldn't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right.

Mr. GREGORY. Would you like for me to give the complete answer of this lady to her?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That would be the main thoroughfare in Irving.

Mr. GREGORY. That's the street across from the bank?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; it would be in the same block with the Irving Bank & Trust.

Mrs. OSWALD. The only thing I am interested in is whether Mrs. Whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me or knows me or not. That's what I am interested in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let us ask Mrs. Whitworth to describe briefly the circumstances under which you say these people came in the store.

Mr. McKENZIE. And the time of the day, establish the time of the day and the complete circumstances.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it would be more from the middle of the day until, you see, say 3 o'clock in the afternoon or maybe 4 o'clock in the afternoon. When they came in, and drove up to the front, and Mr. Oswald came in the store first.

He came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--I said I didn't have the part--I didn't have the gun part that he wanted, he said, "You have furniture in here?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "I am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. It was a tiny baby--he told me it was 2 weeks old, and this little girl [indicating June Oswald] was walking in front of Mrs. Oswald and she was whining a little bit and Mrs. Oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and I showed them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and Mrs. Oswald stood there and she never said anything, but Mr. Oswald and I talked, you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, but she turned and left before he did, you know, because I walked back up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap and this little girl, as well as I remember, had on some kind of a short sweater or coat, and Mrs. Oswald had on a short coat too, and she had her hair tied back.

She doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was. This baby was just a tiny thing. I didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this little girl--it definitely was her. It seemed like her hair was a little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand this?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I wonder if somebody was in car or not?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That, I wouldn't testify that there was anybody in the car with you, because I observed what happened in the store, you know. I mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. I didn't notice, because too many people drove up. I thought your car was a two-tone car, either a Ford or a Plymouth--now--I don't know. I thought it was blue and white--I wouldn't, you know, swear to that. I mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what happened on the inside of the store that I was more impressed with and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or anything, but I did talk to him, and I know it was him and I know she was in there.

She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating].

Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back to the back.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have--it was tied back and whipped back from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say she was pretty.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl--I tried to talk to her and attract her attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they left the store.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it?

Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and I was looking for something for a child.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all furniture.

*Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, you know, I was showing you.

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you know, she walked off.

*Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I talked with somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do you remember how long you were in the store that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this time that you are talking about?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the store at that time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side--on the left side and baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for?

*Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women like her--not one, but many of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that these were the people who were in the store that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby came--several times. She said she saw me--do you remember talking to a lady about getting help for you before your baby came?

Mrs. OSWALD. For housework?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked to Marina about this?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do you remember that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a minute, would you describe the other woman?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. All I know, she was with this other woman, but I live on Second Street and it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, I believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a tire. Now, I couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and was in this condition and I kept asking her where her husband was and I never did make her understand me and I finally asked her if they had separated [indicating hand signals]--and I did that way--with her, and she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, I didn't know who she was or nothing about her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen?

Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a car that this man had for sale at the station or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Street--I know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the station, because we were looking at a car there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in this station, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, I have never been there but about twice, but at this particular time, last July until right after Christmas, we were looking just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools in. We have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there.

*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?

Mrs. HUNTER. What?

*Mrs. OSWALD. After Christmas?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. Do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on Sixth Street?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember Irving.

Mrs. HUNTER. This was before--I would say it was in September or October. It was before--just a little while, I know, before your baby came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it was pretty close--almost due time--you could tell from the way you were carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth].

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when the baby comes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please?

Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.

Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were there?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what were you doing in the store that morning or that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch hour at 2 o'clock.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football weekend; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on that occasion when you were in the store with Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes or anything of the sort?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time I'm asking you about, did either Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; they didn't buy anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Mrs. Oswald before; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was until now--I do now--I would know her eyes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then.

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I'll be honest with you, I have only seen her once on television and that was in Washington, and day before yesterday I wanted to be sure that this woman had the long hair, and the way it looked there. Now, I'm honest with him about that. I didn't watch the run of it on television.

Mr. McKENZIE. By "him" you are referring to Mr. Liebeler here?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't know what his name is.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the two children and her husband, that Mrs. Whitworth has described, did you notice the automobile that they came in?

Mrs. HUNTER. I sure did.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was it in the same automobile you had seen her in before at the filling station?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not the same? Not the same?

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you go outside and see the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing in the side door looking up and down the street while she had went with them to the back. Now, I didn't hear her say nothing and I don't know whether she said something to the little girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." She could have said "shhh" or something, but I remember her making some kind of a remark to the little girl.

Mr. McKENZIE. To quiet the little girl?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front?

Mrs. HUNTER. Can I tell him what I told you?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, what I meant--I didn't want to do something that I shouldn't. I was looking for some friends of mine from Houston that drove a two-tone blue and white Ford--a 1957--I think it was, and when this car drove up, I left a note on my mailbox when I left the house and I told them if they come while I was gone to come down to this place, because I would be there, or left her telephone number on the note too, and when they drove up----

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is "they" now?

Mrs. HUNTER. Mr. and Mrs. Dominik from Houston, and when this car drove up, I thought it was them and I just said, "Well, my company has come," and that was it and when I seen he was getting out of the car I just seen then that it wasn't, and I just sat back down in the platform rocker there where I was sitting. It was a partition in the front part of the store and I was sitting right here in platform rocker and there was some tables and chairs over here and I had opened this side door. She had it shut and I had opened it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did your friends from Houston come while they were there?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; they never did come up until later on, and he come up in a truck--several weeks later.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up that they got out of?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; just her and him and the two children. Now, I wasn't up close to the car. I was standing in the door and the car was parked over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the floorboard of the car--I wouldn't say they wasn't.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you see who was driving the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. He got under the steering wheel.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Lee?

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw him drive the car?

Mrs. HUNTER. I seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, Mr. Oswald got behind the steering wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front of the building somewhere; isn't that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never seen Lee drive the car in my lifetime. Lee never drove a car with me or the children in it. The only time I saw him behind the wheel was when Ruth Paine taught him to drive the car, he was practicing parking the car when Ruth Paine was teaching him to drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was all in front of Mr. Paine's house; wasn't it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in that store could have been Mrs. Ruth Paine. She knows all the stores where we went because we never went there without her.

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, you've got your privileges--you've got your privileges.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, back in September or October when you were in the Shell filling station and Mrs. Oswald and the little girl here, June, and another lady happened to be there--that was the occasion when your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either Mrs. Oswald get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was standing beside the car, now, I don't even remember the baby being there--being in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mrs. Oswald was standing beside the car?

Mrs. HUNTER. Standing beside the car.

Mr. McKENZIE. And where was the other lady standing?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling station. She wasn't out there--I never did say anything to this woman.

Mr. McKENZIE. The other woman----

Mrs. HUNTER. Do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a Salvation Army woman?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Salvation Army woman? I don't know what the Salvation Army is.

Mrs. HUNTER. This woman was dressed and I told her I would get her, I would get her a contact. She dresses in these regular white uniforms most of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time this lady claims that she saw me, I was not interested in any help or I did not need any help for the baby from the standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations for the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hunter, when you say you saw these people at the service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in the area of the service station; is that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. You see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and she was there by herself because----

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "she" you have to say who.

Mrs. HUNTER. Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. HUNTER. And I don't know whether she had got out to go into the restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in Richardson.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is, did you see the other lady standing in the area of the filling station?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; I didn't see the other woman--I really couldn't tell you what she looked like. I just seen a woman go into the filling station or into the restroom and I presumed it was who she was with, because she said--she didn't ask for any help and I couldn't understand her and she couldn't understand me, you see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, I want to try and find out--you said you saw this other woman walk into the restroom?

Mrs. HUNTER. I seen a woman--I don't know whether it was the one that was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what I'm trying to get to--was this a skinny woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as you saw her walk into the restroom?

Mrs. HUNTER. The woman, I don't believe she was quite as heavy as I am and a little bit taller.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

Mrs. HUNTER. Five feet two.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she's just a little bit taller than you?

Mrs. HUNTER. I would say this woman was taller than I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much?

Mrs. HUNTER. About 5 feet 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 5 feet 4 or 5 feet 5--how much do you think she weighed?

Mrs. HUNTER. I would say about 135.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anybody else around the automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?

Mrs. HUNTER. When we got in our car and left she was still standing beside the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald was?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car was it?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I wouldn't say as to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible, was it a Volkswagen, was it a station wagon, or was it an ordinary American-type car?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was just a car--but I wouldn't go back to it, because it didn't dawn on me for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a station wagon?

Mrs. HUNTER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you saw Mrs. Oswald, or who you think was Mrs. Oswald, in the station there that day before you saw her in the Furniture Mart; is that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you saw her in the Furniture Mart, did you recognize her?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; it didn't dawn on me--I didn't think a thing in the world about it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Excuse me, do you remember how I was dressed and was I pregnant at that time?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did I have on?

Mrs. HUNTER. All I know is you had on a jacket.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What color?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Was it blue?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was more of a rose.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I had a rose short one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before you had seen Mrs. Oswald several times.

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; but I didn't know who she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the other times you saw her.

Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen her in Minyards Grocery Store.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is that?

Mr. McKENZIE. [Spelling] M-i-n-y-a-r-d-s.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?

Mrs. HUNTER. On Irving Boulevard.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. And this drive-in grocery that I was talking about, if you remember there--I think I had seen her there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?

Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it was somebody just like me?

Mr. LIEBELER. How is it you remember seeing Mrs. Oswald when you have no recollection of who she was with or anything like that?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, her eyes--I would know her on the street by her eyes if I was to meet her.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Everybody knows my eyes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about you, Mrs. Whitworth, do you recognize these people as the people that were in your store that day?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, like I say, she has changed, but I am definitely sure they were in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as you sit here and look at these children who have been here this morning with Mrs. Oswald, do you recognize them?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. They have grown, and according to their ages and all--they were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't have a doubt in the world but that they were there. I believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over here, her husband told me--Lee Harvey Oswald told me that the baby was 2 weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and they were boys. She probably didn't understand our discussion but we discussed these two children and my two grandchildren.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I remember Lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray as it is today and I probably have changed, too, but we discussed the babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in fact I was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. We talked and she walked off. She never would--she never offered to show us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything else. Otherwise, I probably would have never paid any attention to them being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking to him and I was to expedite just about like he was on television one time. It was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the 4th, 5th, or 6th of November.

*Mrs. OSWALD. That sounds just about like Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Marina made that answer when Mrs. Whitworth remarked that Lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't hear this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because he did want that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he drive up at the store and park the car and get out?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't say what he did do, but I saw the car come up and I think it was his own car, and I think that it was his own car and I know the door that he came in and I know he went back to the car and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. Whether he drove that car up there, I won't say he didn't and I won't say he drove it off.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that he got into the car and drove it off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I think, really, that Mrs. Hunter and I had talked about it, but I'm not going to say that she described the car at all, but all I want to say is that they were in that store that day, you know, they've got four of them and I didn't see anyone else in the car and I didn't think you could do it, and if I did at that time, why it was maybe because I had talked to Mrs. Hunter previously about that, because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a =U=-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and Mrs. Hunter would notice it, where I wouldn't pay too much attention about what happened every day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It has been a long time and I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it appear to you that he was driving the car?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which side of the car did he get out from; do you remember?

Did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the two children?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't pay any attention at that time that they were in the car, you know, when they first drove up but I didn't know that they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; they wouldn't have walked up.

Mr. McKENZIE. Why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, they would have had to have lived pretty close and around there and I had never seen them come in there before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, not until after all this happened--the assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. I had never seen Mrs. Paine walk by there before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I asked them when all this happened and everything. If they lived out where they did, it would have been too far from my store to have walked up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression at that time that they were living together; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, and I asked him.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Living in an apartment?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I said, "You are living in an apartment," and wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "Yes." So, I just assumed when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need some--they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but he wasn't quite ready then--he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell you that they were living in an apartment together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I asked him--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that they were living in an apartment together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have learned since that time that they weren't living together; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth missing in front? One or two teeth missing?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't recall that--all I noticed--she didn't even utter a word--I didn't notice it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing?

*Mrs. OSWALD. You know me; you know me?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald has indicated to Mrs. Hunter that Mrs. Hunter had said she remembered talking to Marina. Now, what about you, Mrs. Hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I don't remember anything about her teeth because she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at this station--very few. The only thing that I caught was right here [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had a tooth out in front of their mouth?

Mrs. HUNTER. Not necessarily, because I don't pay no attention to nobody--only their eyes and their feet.

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, did you at any time go with Lee and the children when Lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took into a store?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It would be about this long [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating about how long?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say about 15 or 18 inches.

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have noticed if he had had an object with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, you testified that when this man came in the store he did have an object with him about 15 inches long wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; didn't he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; isn't that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you understand that, Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. OSWALD. Even if he did, I would not have understood what he was saying because I simply did not know the language, but I don't recall him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; at no time.

Mr. McKENZIE. She is saying he went back to the car and got this part?

Mr. LIEBELER. What were you saying, Mrs. Whitworth?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He went back to the car and took whatever he had in his hand--he must have put it in the car, because I never noticed any more; she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, because she followed him in and in the store--I don't see why that she couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that you would go in where you bought soft goods.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say he brought this package into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. McKenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package?

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, whom you know now was Lee Harvey Oswald, from his pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a package in his hand about 15 to 18 inches long; is that correct?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I saw him.

Mr. McKENZIE. I say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I saw him; yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. How was the package wrapped?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any strings on it, as far as I remember--it was loosely tied.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, was it a package in a bag?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he held it with one hand.

Mr. McKENZIE. He held it with one hand?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like that was in the package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I didn't see it.

Mr. McKENZIE. How big around was the package?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. It wasn't large--I'd say it might have been this big [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. You are making a sign with your hands there, with both hands----

Mrs. WHITWORTH. What is that--about 2 or 3 inches in diameter?

Mr. McKENZIE. All right.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. And then it was some 15 or 18 inches long.

Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't remember it, you know, what he asked for.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.

Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure--I might have told them that I thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought it was; is that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement that I knew exactly what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me. He was standing practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned and I had furniture all around me--dinette suites over on this side and there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "You have furniture?" I said, "Yes."

He said, "I'm going to need some in about 2 weeks," and I said, "All right, I'll be glad to show you some."

He turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he had in his hand back in the car and that's when Mrs. Oswald followed him back in and he got back in the store before she did.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did you hear them talking together?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I never did hear her utter one word.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he say anything to her?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He never said anything to her other than he might have glanced at her and I thought that they were exchanging glances, you know. She didn't utter a word.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he didn't utter a word to her?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Not to her--but to me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately 2 weeks?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did you ask him where he was living?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "Yes."

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you where he was moving to?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he hadn't got that place yet.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he ask you if you delivered?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; we didn't get that far along.

Mr. McKENZIE. I see. He didn't like the piece of furniture that you showed to him, is that it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I probably didn't have what he was looking for. We talked about not having it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the furniture that you showed him?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you what he was looking for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, and I suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. I said, "Do you like Early American, or do you like Danish Modern?" And we exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. He didn't say what he liked.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that particular location before you moved in with your furniture store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what was his name?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. His name was Warren Graves.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still operate a gun shop?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he doesn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he still live in the Irving area?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He still lives in Irving.

Mr. McKENZIE. Had you had any previous experience with guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Other than just seeing guns in that little corner of the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on guns, but I knew nothing about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, did you know anything about the various nomenclature or the various parts of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't.

Mr. McKENZIE. But you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun when this man came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, in the way that he asked for it, I knew that it was a gun part that he wanted because I didn't have it.

Mr. McKENZIE. In what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. As well as I can remember, I told him we didn't have a gunsmith and he asked for this part and I don't remember really just what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have.

Mr. McKENZIE. Were you in the front of the store when he came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; I was in the cash stand.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was Mrs. Hunter still sitting there on the platform chair?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. She was sitting there in the front.

Mr. McKENZIE. And how far away was she from you when he came in?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I was behind the stand, which I guess that was probably 4 or 5 feet in squares and I would have had to have gotten out of the stand and walked clear around and Mrs. Hunter, I imagine, was probably 8 feet from me.

Mr. McKENZIE. Was she as close to you as I am now--just directly across, I mean?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. About the same distance that we are apart now?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a counter between us.

Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. Whitworth testify about this morning?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?"

I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it was back down east on Irving Boulevard.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back down there.

Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to go. I remember that much of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the other door, the door back to the back?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door.

Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain it better that way.

[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes and things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here that I had got up and opened after I sat down there.

Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.

Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn to your left and come back around."

Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing?

Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here.

Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way, where was Mrs. Oswald sitting?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby?

Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red light."

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then?

Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?

Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my friends had in Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind?

Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a 1958.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?

Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white--yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?

[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?

*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse--yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.

Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.

Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler].

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very much.

Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are very sweet.

(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't.

Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, she take me to the store.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer.

Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering committee.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or the 3d of November or September?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this store--it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right.

Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then?

Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come?

*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job.

Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there during the week other than weekends.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he had no job.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came--only once before Rachel was born during the week.

Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come during the week up until the time he got a job?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th?

*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born?

Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the 19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he spent the night in her house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you remember?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take me from the hospital.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after work?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine?

*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back to work on Tuesday morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or to take you home; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the week except the night before the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his job; was that just after he came back from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume at 1:30 p.m.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack on General Walker; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. He burned it or disposed of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when you first saw the notebook?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room and look around.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night.

Mr. McKENZIE. After?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I did not see the book or look at it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him destroy the book; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it burning; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of the house of General Walker's--his residence."

Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The size--it looked like this size of paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for?

Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say?

Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Both.

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house--this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.

Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy he book?

Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.

Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by "they?"

Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that it was this.

Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there was a license plate number on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this picture the number was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. License plate?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot.

*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative?

Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture.

Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture----

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.

Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?

Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to me--I'm positive of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this picture, had it been folded?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture--the FBI or the Secret Service or the Commission?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's license plate would be?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.

Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.

(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.)

Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should know that you can remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember anything else now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the Walker affair?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I couldn't read his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker thing at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.

Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?

*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall of 1962 except this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the Meller's house the next day?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?

Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before Mohrenschildt brought the things there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. Ford's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.

Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of things?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the Fords' house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had brought to Anna Meller's?

Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week?

Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know where you went the night you left him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?

Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's and he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to take the things to Anna Meller's, De Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And left?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took things.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was busy gathering the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking English and I didn't understand them.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or in English?

Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving Lee this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was displeased--unhappy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the dictionary that he had given you; didn't he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's.

Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on a bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday?

Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday.

Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven.

Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's car?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they came later.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this morning--what was said there?

Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee goes with us or if he goes first.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for the baby?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things up?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he came out to Anna Ray's and met you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna Meller's the first time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time--Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that?

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you don't want to tell us about it--all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only foolish people would do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you actually try?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes;--I have that now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in the Dallas Morning News?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your office--I'm sorry.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, Inc.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this correct?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it from Time-Life, Inc.?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give them permission to publish the diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of publishing the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas Morning News got the diary.

Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other than that, I can't say anything.

Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they got it.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day----

Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was negotiated between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a Communist?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes me no difference.

Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a member of the party.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought.

Mr. McKENZIE. That's all.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself what he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable.

(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before--I am quite sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here--maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why I wanted to see this store, but maybe I have forgotten by now----

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. EUGENE D. ANDERSON

The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken at 4:30 p.m., on July 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and that our witnesses today are Maj. Eugene D. Anderson and M. Sgt. James A. Zahm of the U.S. Marine Corps who have been asked to testify about their knowledge of the capabilities of a marksman using a rifle with a scope.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand, Major Anderson and raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Major ANDERSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state you full name for the record please.

Major ANDERSON. Eugene D. Anderson.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, sir?

Major ANDERSON. I am a major in the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps.

Major ANDERSON. Twenty-six years 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist?

Major ANDERSON. I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is your current duty station?

Major ANDERSON. In Navy Annex, Headquarters Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you held that position?

Major ANDERSON. I have been stationed here for 2 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your qualifications, if any, in marksmanship?

Major ANDERSON. I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the qualifications or tests which must be achieved in order to qualify as a distinguished shot?

Major ANDERSON. A man must have acquired a minimum of 30 points from winning medals in certain specified high-caliber matches. To win these points he must have placed among the top 10 percent of the nondistinguished shooters participating in the match. By winning a gold medal he can earn 10 points. By winning a silver medal he can earn eight points. By winning a bronze medal he can win six points.

Mr. SPECTER. And what qualifications must be displayed to obtain the classification as master of the National Rifle Association of America?

Major ANDERSON. You have to fire in a minimum number of National Rifle Association sponsored matches.

(Discussion off the record.)

Major ANDERSON. I want to correct the record.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed to do so.

Major ANDERSON. I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle?

Major ANDERSON. To the rifle, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document which has heretofore been introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 239.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you have heretofore had an opportunity to examine that document?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you describe for the record what that document is, please?

Major ANDERSON. This is a U.S. rifle, caliber 30, M-1 and U.S. carbine, caliber 30, M-1-A1 record scorebook that is maintained by a shooter who is training for firing for qualification or requalification in the Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a standard record scorebook which the Marine Corps makes available to every Marine who shoots under those circumstances?

Major ANDERSON. It was standard at the time of issuance of this particular book.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that time?

Major ANDERSON. In December 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. And does the name of any specific Marine appear on the front page of that document?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. And are there any initials?

Major ANDERSON. It appears to be "L. H."

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training?

Major ANDERSON. He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks' training period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger.

He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over the qualification course. Normally in about the middle of the second week or the latter part of the second week he conducts some firing with a .22 rifle and .22 pistol to familiarize himself with live ammunition and to give the coaches an opportunity to check on his previous training. He then proceeds to the rifle range and he zeros the rifle in normally at 200 yards.

This consists of a few rounds being fired at a target, and the sights are changed so that at this particular range, either 200 or 300 yards, this rifle will strike the bull's-eye at the sight setting so indicated when there is no wind blowing and all the conditions for firing are ideal.

Then the following week he goes out to the range and he fires over the course completely, consisting of firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. He will normally fire possibly 60 rounds the first day, which is 10 rounds over the required amount to fire the course. This firing is normally done at 200 yards. The following days, possibly the second or third day he may fire as much as 70 rounds each day, giving him an opportunity to acquire more practice with the gun, and to get a better opportunity to find out the zero of his weapon and where the strike of his bullet is going to be under any given circumstances.

Then on Thursday he will fire preliminary day, in which he will fire over the course one time under all circumstances exactly as he will do the following day for record day, except that on preliminary day he is allowed to have a coach on the range with him on the firing line to assist him in all phases.

The following day on record day, he fires over the course 50 rounds for his qualification score record. At this time the coach may give him any assistance possible as long as he is behind the firing line. Once he steps onto the firing line, assumes the firing position, then he is completely on his own. He cannot be helped by any gestures or comments or in any way given any assistance from anyone whatsoever. He completes this firing and the score that he attains then becomes his qualification score.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that training program in effect during 1956?

Major ANDERSON. With some possible minor deviations, yes. Generally speaking this is exactly what he would have done in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that training then necessarily have preceded the compilation of a marksmanship test as is reflected in the document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 239?

Major ANDERSON. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps I can rephrase it. Would your presumption be that L. H. Oswald, whose test score you have before you, would have received the training such as that which you have just described?

Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He fired every day according to this. The only exception might be that if he was required to go to the sick bay for some minor treatment, and missed maybe an hour a day or some sort of thing such as that.

Mr. SPECTER. And the basis for your statement on that would be your conclusion based on the fact that L. H. Oswald had undergone a test where he completed these documents under the category of "US Marine Corps Scorebook for US Rifle Caliber .30 M-1 and US Carbine Caliber .30 M-1-A1?"

Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; this document shows by dates and days as indicated that he fired daily and sighted in his rifle as prescribed.

Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you didn't know Mr. Oswald personally?

Major ANDERSON. I never knew him whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. So that your conclusion as to his training is based upon the inference which arises from the document which I have presented to you. That is to say, you know that if a man has one of those scorebooks, that he must have received that training?

Major ANDERSON. Absolutely. He received this in full.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that document have some record of practicing as well as actual scoring in it, Major Anderson?

Major ANDERSON. This record shows that on Thursday of the week preceding the record firing week, he fired approximately 10 rounds which were not scored, appear to be zeroing in shots. There is no day here to indicate any firing on Friday. Monday is shown of the following week with a 10 shot group, and shows that he fires the entire course on Monday throughout.

Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now show you a letter which I have marked for the purpose of this deposition as Anderson Exhibit No. 1, and ask you for the record to tell us what is the date of that letter, first of all?

Major ANDERSON. 8 January 1964.

(Major Anderson Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. To whom is the letter addressed?

Major ANDERSON. Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the letter written?

Major ANDERSON. The signature shows it was from A. G. Folsom, Jr., lieutenant colonel, U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity heretofore to examine that letter?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And whom does that letter concern itself with?

Major ANDERSON. The letter concerns a Mr. Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Lee Harvey Oswald?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter contain with it the marksmanship practice which Mr. Oswald had while in the Marine Corps?

Major ANDERSON. It so indicates; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the procedure of the Marine Corps in retaining such information on men who were in the Corps and had marksmanship training?

Major ANDERSON. Any time a man goes through any type of live firing, the type of firing, the number of rounds he has fired, the course he has fired is supposed to be and supposedly is entered in his record book in the spaces provided for his training?

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by live firing, sir?

Major ANDERSON. By live firing I mean any time a live round of ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or heavy firing?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. A man just simulates that he is firing the gun.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that letter set forth the marksmanship practice which Mr. Oswald had in the Marine Corps?

Major ANDERSON. It does; yes. It shows that he had the course A firing and followed by "fam" firing in the B course.

Mr. SPECTER. By "fam" firing, what does that mean?

Major ANDERSON. This is sharp terminology for familiarization firing and it is used to familiarize a man with the weapon prior to his being armed with said weapon.

Mr. SPECTER. And on what date was the A course registered?

Major ANDERSON. 21 December 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used?

Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his final qualification there?

Major ANDERSON. 212.

Mr. SPECTER. And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score?

Major ANDERSON. That should have been a sharpshooter.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance?

Major ANDERSON. 400 rounds for recruit firing.

Mr. SPECTER. And during what period was that?

Major ANDERSON. That was to be fired within a 2-week period.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have exposure on another course for M-1 firing at a later date?

Major ANDERSON. The record shows that 6 May 1959 he fired the B course.

Mr. SPECTER. And what weapon was used at that time?

Major ANDERSON. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. And what score was obtained on that occasion?

Major ANDERSON. 191 for marksman.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the authorized ammunition allowance?

Major ANDERSON. 200 rounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any reason why the scores might differ from 212 to 191, based on the layout of the courses or any of the conditions surrounding those tests, Major Anderson?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; the day the 212 was fired appears to be according to the record book to have been an ideal day under firing conditions.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the record book you meant Commission Exhibit No. 239 that you referred to?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; when he fired that he had just completed a very intensive preliminary training period. He had the services of an experienced highly trained coach. He had high motivation. He had presumably a good to excellent rifle and good ammunition. We have nothing here to show under what conditions the B course was fired. It might well have been a bad day for firing the rifle--windy, rainy, dark. There is little probability that he had a good, expert coach, and he probably didn't have as high a motivation because he was no longer in recruit training and under the care of the drill instructor. There is some possibility that the rifle he was firing might not have been as good a rifle as the rifle that he was firing in his A course firing, because may well have carried this rifle for quite some time, and it got banged around in normal usage.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the differences between the A and B courses, Major Anderson?

Major ANDERSON. The A course is fired at 200, 300, and 500 yards. The B course is exactly the same course as far as targets, number of rounds and positions are concerned, but it is fired entirely at 200 yards.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there compensations in the scoring to allow for the difference in distances?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; there is.

Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarity with weapons did Mr. Oswald possess according to that document identified as Anderson Exhibit No. 1?

Major ANDERSON. On 17 December 1956 he fired the Browning Automatic Rifle familiarization 75 rounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any score indicated on that firing?

Major ANDERSON. There will be no scores indicated for familiarization firing. It is not scored.

Mr. SPECTER. What other familiarization?

Major ANDERSON. On 11 December 1956 he fired the pistol familiarization 100 rounds. On 2 May 1958 he fired the 12-gage riot gun familiarization 10 rounds, again on 7 May 1958 he fired the .45 caliber pistol 100 rounds for familiarization and on 9 March 1959 he fired the 12-gage riot gun 10 rounds for familiarization.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman?

Major ANDERSON. I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, I now want to show you certain photographs which have been heretofore identified and introduced into the Commission's record as a preliminary to asking your opinion on the difficulty of certain shots which I will identify.

First I show you Commission Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead photograph of an area known as Dealey Plaza, which the record will show is the situs of the assassination of President Kennedy. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 348 which is a photograph of the Texas School Book Depository Building with the letter "A" pointing to the half-opened window, that is the bottom portion of the window which is half opened, where other witnesses have testified that the assassin stood. Let me add as a factor for you to assume to be true, this the record will show is based upon eyewitnesses at the scene, that the weapon partly protruded from the window identified as letter "A" in Exhibit No. 348 pointing at an angle which is not completely in a straight line but very much in a straight line with the angle of the street being designated as Elm Street, which street runs on a downgrade of approximately 3°.

I now show you a document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 893, and a second document identified as Commission Exhibit No. 895, which depict frame No. 210 and frame No. 225 on photographs in the nature of moving pictures taken by Abraham Zapruder at the assassination site which the evidence indicates was the range of the first shot which struck President Kennedy in the lower portion of his neck, with that bullet striking at a distance from 176.9 feet to a distance of 190.8 feet. Stated differently, the evidence shows that somewhere between these two pictures President Kennedy was shot in the neck, and as the photograph of the rifle scope shows in the left-hand corner lower picture, that is the view through the telescopic lens which the marksman had based on onsite tests which were made in Dallas with a camera mounted looking through the scope on Commission Exhibit No. 139, which is the weapon identified as the assassination rifle. Now assuming those factors to be true for purposes of this next question, how would you characterize the difficulty of a shot at that range, which would strike the President in the lower portion of his neck at a spot indicated by a white mark on the back of the stand-in the photograph marked "Re-enactment"?

My question, then, is how would you characterize the difficulty or ease of that shot for a marksman with Mr. Oswald's capabilities?

Major ANDERSON. In my opinion this is not a particularly difficult shot, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make this shot.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. 902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.

Major ANDERSON. I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we have been off the record because Mr. Rankin stepped out, but we will proceed now to complete the deposition since he hasn't returned at this time.

Major Anderson, assume if you will that there were three shots fired by the assassin with a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in a time span of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. Would that speed of firing be within the capabilities of Mr. Oswald based upon the information as to his marksmanship ability from the Marine Corps records?

Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. SPECTER. Major Anderson, are you as familiar with the telescopic sights as is Master Sergeant Zahm?

Major ANDERSON. No, sir; I am not. Sergeant Zahm is far more familiar and much more of an expert on telescopic sights than I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Has the testimony which you have provided here today on the general propositions to which you have testified been within your sphere of specialization?

Major ANDERSON. Yes, sir; they have.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the deposition of you, Major Anderson. We very much appreciate your coming.

Major ANDERSON. You are quite welcome.

TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. ZAHM

The testimony of Sgt. James A. Zahm was taken on July 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you shall give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Sergeant ZAHM. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Sergeant ZAHM. James A. Zahm.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation, please?

Sergeant ZAHM. Master sergeant.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what branch of the service are you?

Sergeant ZAHM. U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps, Sergeant Zahm?

Sergeant ZAHM. Eighteen years.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist?

Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record.

Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty?

Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship?

Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President's match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had with telescopic sights, Sergeant Zahm?

Sergeant ZAHM. One of my additional duties at the present time is the noncommissioned officer in charge of the long-range team. This consists of about 40 members of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team, and I am charged with training, providing weapons, and hand loading the ammunition for practice and eventual firing at 600 and 1,000 yards in the interservice match.

Mr. SPECTER. Are telescopic sights used regularly in those activities?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you characterize for me in some manner your experience then with telescopic sights in the number that you have used or duration of time where you have used telescopic sights?

Sergeant ZAHM. Well, from my own experience, and it is true that the higher powered telescopes are used in the particular type of firing we are doing right now, deliberate slow fire at extreme ranges of 600 and 1,000 yards. We use 12-power to 20-power telescopes. These are unsuitable for moving targets or closer ranges from unsteady positions, because the power of the telescope tends to magnify the shooter's movements and makes a hold more difficult.

In the lower-powered telescope such as four-power telescope at closer ranges ranging from 50 to 200 yards, this is an ideal type of weapon for moving targets or type of telescope for moving targets, and for the closer ranges, things being inherent in the focus of the scopes when you get in too close, the higher power type scopes tend to blur out to a certain degree.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the increased efficiency of a marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron sights?

Sergeant ZAHM. Well, with the iron sights you have more room for error in the fact that you have three variables. You have your targets, your front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an error in alining the sights, and then you also have the possibility of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the sight picture. Looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in alining the sights.

Now this as opposed to telescope of a four-power nature it is a natural characteristic of a telescope when you are looking for your target, it is a natural thing to center your target in the view of your telescope, and in the center view of your telescope is the aiming crosshairs. This is only one point.

If you get this one point, the crosshairs in the proper relationship to your target, this is an aid in locating, finding your target, because you are using the scope in the sense as binoculars. Once you have found your target, your sights are already alined, and then through good trigger manipulation the shot should be well on the target.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to rapid-fire shooting, how does the telescopic sight on a four-power scope work out?

Sergeant ZAHM. Four-power being a reasonably low-power scope, it has a fairly broad field of view. By this we mean it covers a reasonable amount of area out at about 100 yards, about I think probably around 30 feet or so. Using the scope, rapidly working a bolt and using the scope to relocate your target quickly and at the same time when you locate that target you identify it and the crosshairs are in close relationship to the point you want to shoot at, it just takes a minor move in aiming to bring the crosshairs to bear, and then it is a quick squeeze.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as easy, difficult, or how would you characterize it to use a scope, a four-power scope in rapid fire?

Sergeant ZAHM. A real aid, an extreme aid.

Mr. SPECTER. Suppose in focusing in through the four-power scope you do not get a completely circular view, but instead get a partial view with a corner of the view being blacked out because you don't have the scope in direct alinement, but you are still able to see a sufficient amount of daylight through the scope so that you can see where the crosshairs line up on target. Is it in sufficient alinement at that juncture to permit the marksman to shoot accurately?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how does that work out that the alinement is sufficient to permit an accurate shot, even though the marksman does not have a completely clear view through the entire circle of the scope?

Sergeant ZAHM. Well, in the assembly of the telescope, the aiming reticle or crosshair is so placed in the scope that it is in the same plane as the focus of the lenses, and regardless of the position of the eye behind the scope, this makes no apparent or no real movement of the reticle on the target itself, so if the shooter can look through the scope and see the juncture of the crosshairs, and it is on his target, if he properly manipulates the trigger he will get a hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to examine the documents identified as Commission Exhibit No. 239 and Exhibit No. 1 to Major Anderson's deposition, Sergeant Zahm?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on the tests of Mr. Oswald shown by those documents, how would you characterize his ability as a marksman?

Sergeant ZAHM. I would say in the Marine Corps he is a good shot, slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age throughout the civilian, throughout the United States, that he is an excellent shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How much familiarity would a man with Oswald's qualifications, obtained in the Marine Corps, require in order to operate a rifle with a scope such as a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a four-power scope?

Sergeant ZAHM. How much familiarity would he require?

Mr. SPECTER. Let me rephrase the question. Would it be very difficult for a man with Oswald's capabilities as a marksman to use a rifle with a four-power scope?

Sergeant ZAHM. No; I feel that the instruction that he had received qualifies him on the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. There are just a few refinements in the operation of the bolt rifle and the scope through a minimum amount of experimenting would make him as proficient with the bolt and the scope as it did with the weapons he received instruction on, and if not it would improve his proficiency actually through the use of the telescope. I feel that this would be an advantage.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots in your opinion would a man like Oswald have to take in order to be able to operate a rifle with a four-power scope, based on the training he had received in the Marine Corps?

Sergeant ZAHM. Based on that training, his basic knowledge in sight manipulation and trigger squeeze and what not, I would say that he would be capable of sighting that rifle in well, firing it, with 10 rounds.

Mr. SPECTER. Would dry runs be an aid to a man like Oswald in learning how to operate a rifle with a scope on it.

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record what is meant in marksmanship terms by a dry run?

Sergeant ZAHM. Dry firing is working the bolt and manipulating the trigger and alining the sights, whether it be scope or iron, without any ammunition. The advantage in the scope in dry firing is that when he snaps the trigger or squeezes the trigger, he can see any apparent error in his trigger manipulation, movement of the piece, by the jump of the crosshair much easier than he can with iron sights.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the use of a four-power scope be a real advantage to a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities or of a slight advantage, or how would you characterize the advantage that he would obtain, if any, from the use of such a scope?

Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it a real advantage, particularly at the range of 100 yards, in identifying your target. It allows you to see your target clearly, and it is still of a minimum amount of power that it doesn't exaggerate your own body movements. It just is an aid in seeing in the fact that you only have the one element, the crosshair, in relation to the target as opposed to iron sights with alining the sights and then alining them on the target. It is a real aid.

Mr. SPECTER. Sergeant Zahm, I am now going to show you the same photographs which I showed to Major Anderson in setting the basis for asking you a hypothetical question on capabilities here. As the record will show, we have heretofore before the President's Commission entered into evidence Exhibit No. 347 which is an overhead shot of Dealey Plaza. Commission Exhibit No. 348, which I am now displaying to you, is a photograph of the Texas School Book Depository Building. The evidence in the record indicates that the marksman stood at the point designated "A" with the lower half of the window being raised halfway, and the gun protruding out of that window pointing down the street called Elm Street in approximately the angle of my pencil which is virtually although not exactly straight down the street. Elm Street declines 3° as it slopes under the triple underpass.

As the evidence will further show, Commission Exhibits Nos. 893 and 895 respectively depict frames 210 and 225 of the Zapruder film which is a range of the first shot from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet. In the lower left-hand corner under designation "Photograph through rifle scope" there is shown the view of the marksman from the sixth floor of the depository building as he looked down at President Kennedy with this picture being taken of a stand-in for President Kennedy, with the white mark designating the spot on the President where the first bullet struck him.

Now assuming that the President was struck under those circumstances at a distance of from 176.9 feet to 190.8 feet, using a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with a four-power scope, would a man with Oswald's marksmanship capabilities be able to complete such a shot and strike the target on the white mark there?

Sergeant ZAHM. Very definitely.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot?

Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now taking a look at Commission Exhibit No. 902, which as the record will show, has been introduced into evidence to depict the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from the rifle in the window to the part of the President's body being 265.3 feet. Assuming the same factors about using a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and pointing it down Elm Street as shown on Commission Exhibit No. 347, would a marksman of Mr. Oswald's capabilities using such a rifle with a 4-power scope be able to strike the President in the back of the head? Would Mr. Oswald possess the capability to complete such a shot which did, in this situation, strike the President in the back of the head?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes; I think that aiming at the mass of what portion of the President is visible at that distance and with his equipment, he would very easily have attained a hit, not necessarily aiming and hitting in the head. This would have been a little more difficult and probably be to the top of his ability, aiming and striking the President in the head. But assuming that he aimed at the mass to the center portion of the President's body, he would have hit him very definitely someplace, and the fact that he hit him in the head, but he could have hit, got a hit.

Mr. SPECTER. So you would have expected a man of Oswald's capabilities at a distance of 265.3 feet to strike the President someplace aiming at him under those circumstances?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And within the range of where you would expect him to hit him, would that include the President's head?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how would you characterize that shot with respect to whether it was difficult or not difficult?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let's go back on the record. May the record show that Sergeant Zahm has questioned the appearance of the "photograph through rifle scope" which appear on Exhibits Nos. 895 and 902. And as the record will show, there are only four photographs on Exhibit No. 895 whereas there are eight on Commission Exhibit No. 902, so that necessarily the photograph through the rifle scope is much smaller as it is depicted on Exhibit No. 902, and I want you to bear that in mind, Sergeant Zahm, in answering the question as to whether you consider the shot at a distance of 265.3 feet to be difficult or not difficult; or characterize it for me in your own words.

Sergeant ZAHM. I consider it still an easy shot, a little more difficult from the President's body position and increase in distance of approximately 40 feet, but I still consider it an easy shot for a man with the equipment he had and his ability.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming that there were three shots fired in a range of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds, would that speed of firing at that range indicated in the prior questions be within Mr. Oswald's capabilities as a marksman?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect if any would the alinement of the street have on the moving vehicle in the way that it is shown on the picture, Exhibit No. 348?

Sergeant ZAHM. This is a definite advantage to the shooter, the vehicle moving directly away from him and the downgrade of the street, and he being in an elevated position made an almost stationary target while he was aiming in, very little movement if any.

Mr. SPECTER. How would the fact that the street had a 3° decline affect the difficulty of the shot.

Sergeant ZAHM. It would make it easier because Oswald was in an elevated position, and therefore if the car was traveling on a level terrain, it would apparently--he would have to keep adjusting by holding up a little bit as the car traveled. But by going downgrade this just straightened out his line of sight that much better.

Mr. SPECTER. So that if the car had been proceeding on a level, the assassin would have had to have raised his weapon as the distance between the rifle and the car increased to allow for trajectory?

Sergeant ZAHM. No; just to allow for the movement of the targets, the travel. Assume that you are aiming standing at ground level and aiming down a little at somebody walking straight away from you, and you could hold your finger and point to him and never have to move it. But when he gets to the bottom of the hill and the ground levels out, then as he continues on you have to point your finger----

Mr. SPECTER. Raise your finger as you are indicating with your finger now?

Sergeant ZAHM. Right; you would have to raise your finger to track the target.

Mr. SPECTER. So that if you were aiming at a man in a moving car driving on the horizontal, as he got farther away from you, would you (a) hold your rifle at the same level, (b) lower it, or (c) raise it?

Sergeant ZAHM. If you were in an elevated, a slightly elevated position, and he was driving on straight level terrain, you would have to continually track and raise your weapon as he increased his distance from you.

Mr. SPECTER. And if he was going down in an angle of descent, would that decrease the necessity for you to raise your rifle in tracking him?

Sergeant ZAHM. Right; it would slow the movement down. There still might be a slight movement, but it wouldn't be as fast. Therefore, not affecting the aiming or possibly having to introduce a lead in your aiming, because the target is staying relatively in the same position on the line of sight.

Mr. SPECTER. So then it would have been an aid to the assassin to have had the President's car going on a downgrade because that would have taken into consideration some of the adjustment necessary by virtue of the greater distance between the rifle and the victim?

Sergeant ZAHM. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Sergeant Zahm, which you think might be helpful in this analysis?

Sergeant ZAHM. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for appearing before the Commission today, sir.

TESTIMONY OF C. A. HAMBLEN

The testimony of C. A. Hamblen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. You may remain seated. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses to have an attorney present, should you wish. I understand that you are present pursuant to a subpena that was served on you some days ago by the U.S. Secret Service, and I presume since you don't have an attorney with you at this time, you are prepared to proceed with your testimony without an attorney?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't need an attorney. You might wish to make a little correction. This should be C. A. Hamblen instead of C. R.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your name is C. A. H-a-m-b-l-e-n?

Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I will be 50 in December.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are employed by the Western Union Telegraph Co.; isn't that right?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?

Mr. HAMBLEN. It will be 38 years the 6th day of August.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to come right to the point in this deposition. I think you know basically the reason we have asked you to come over. It is my understanding that you had a conversation with a newspaper reporter by the name of Bob Fenley shortly after the assassination, in which you told him, in substance, that you thought that a man who you thought looked like Lee Oswald had been in your office and had either sent a telegram or cashed a money order telegram that he had in his possession; is that correct?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Not exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is it exactly?

Mr. HAMBLEN. During that time, I came in contact with newspaper correspondents from all over the world. In my years of service to the company, I have never disclosed the contents of a telegram, who they were addressed to, who they were from, or anything pertaining to them.

I don't think I told Mr. Fenley that a Lee Oswald had been in there, because talking with those correspondents, I wouldn't divulge any patron coming into the telegraph office in search of any of our services, money orders, telegrams, collateral services, collection services, anything that we have to offer. I believe there is some misunderstanding on Mr. Fenley's part there. Perhaps I did tell him that I thought I had seen someone that looked like the man that I saw over television.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember----

Mr. HAMBLEN. I thought he was the assassinator.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to Mr. Fenley about this?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling anyone that, of anyone filing a telegram with us. I remember talking with Fenley, but I wouldn't disclose any information.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say to Fenley?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Just in general conversation like I would with Wes Wise or any of the other reporters that I come in contact with.

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell Fenley that you thought you had seen somebody that reminded you of Oswald in your office?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; I did tell him that I had saw Oswald. I may have told him that. I don't recall what all was said--as many of those correspondents that I talked to during that period of time. Then the employees under me, we never discuss any telegrams unless it is necessary for them to ask me to pass upon a telegram so it could be transmitted.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling Fenley that when you saw the picture of the alleged assassin on television, that he looked very much like a man that had caused you a hard time on several instances in your office?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I don't remember telling Fenley anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember signing a statement to that effect for Mr. Wilcox on December 2, 1963, and I show you a copy.

Mr. HAMBLEN. That I told Fenley that I saw that man in there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. HAMBLEN. I told Wilcox that I thought I saw him, but I don't think I told Fenley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Read the first paragraph of that statement.

Mr. HAMBLEN (reading). I don't think I told Fenley that. I remember telling Mr. Wilcox that I thought a party had been in there that resembled Oswald, on several different occasions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now the statement that I have shown you here, which is Wilcox Exhibit No. 3005, is a copy of a statement that you signed on December 2, 1963, isn't it? That is your signature?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes; that is my signature.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could I have it back, please? Now, that statement says, and I quote:

"I was in conversation with a reporter at the counter and remarked to him that I was watching my TV, enjoying the Ernie Ford show, when word was flashed that the President had been shot and that I thought to myself what a coincidence it was that I recognized the picture of the accused gunman when I recognized it when he was slain in jail. He asked me how I could remember so vividly the photo and my answer to him that the picture was or was the spit image of a party that had caused me a hard time on several instances in his transactions of business within the past several months. (Mr. Bob Fenley was the reporter.)"

Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, now, if I gave Bob any information like that, I don't recall it now. I might have at the time that I wrote the statement.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you had several conversations with Mr. Wilcox about this whole matter over a period of time?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Wilcox and the company conducted a thorough investigation of the files?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I am sure they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And tried to find the telegrams that you thought this man that was in there may have sent; isn't that right?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to find them?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I wasn't able to detect any one.

Mr. LIEBELER. After this investigation was made, Mr. Wilcox showed you these telegrams that you have associated or thought might be associated with Oswald?

Mr. HAMBLEN. They were brought to me in the presence of Mr. Wilcox and the vice president of the company in charge of this investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't able to identify any of those telegrams as having been sent by this man you thought looked like Oswald; isn't that right?

Mr. HAMBLEN. That's right. And I think I am pretty good on recognizing handwriting after handling as many as I have over those years of time.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection at this time, do you think that Lee Oswald was ever in your office?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was Lee Oswald. I would say it was someone that resembled him from the picture that I had seen in the paper and on TV.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to state positively that it was Lee Oswald?

Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you can see anybody in that picture that you think might have been the man that was in your office that we have been talking about.

Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture.

Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall specifically that Mr. Aubrey Lee Lewis at one time in the fall of 1963 had some trouble paying somebody a money order because this fellow expected to get the money order without proper identification; that you became involved in this and helped Mr. Lewis handle it?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the fellow looked like?

Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I can't tell you what he looked like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if it was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I wouldn't say that it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he resembled Oswald in any way?

Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I don't. Different ways people dress and everything, they come in one time and we pay them money orders and the next time they come in we hardly recognize them. I remember it was a very small money order, too small to quibble over. I can't remember where it was from. I know it was under $10, I know that.

Usually I pay people without identification when it is a small money order, which the clerks are not allowed to do. They have to get my permission before they can make payment on a money order where a person is unable to furnish proper identification. But on small amounts, I take it upon myself to assume the responsibility, hoping that I will pay the right man.

Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture that we have looked at, and after reviewing your recollection, you are not able to identify any of the people who you saw in your office during that period as being Lee Harvey Oswald, isn't that a fact?

Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in assuming that you are quite certain that Oswald was not a regular customer, in any event? He was never coming into your office at regular intervals, is that correct?

Mr. HAMBLEN. Well, I wouldn't say Lee Oswald came in there at regular intervals. We have patrons that visit us sometimes once a week, sometimes half a dozen times a week. If it was him, he was very infrequent. I will say if it was him, he wasn't there over three times, that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was a fellow that you thought resembled Oswald to some extent that did come in on occasion, or at least two or three times, but you are not able to positively state that it was Oswald?

Mr. HAMBLEN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that in your discussions with Mr. Wilcox and with the other officials of the company, you did the best that you could to straighten this whole matter out and determine whether it was Oswald or not?

Mr. HAMBLEN. I certainly did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were unable, after working with Mr. Wilcox, to pin down any of these telegrams or money orders that would indicate that it was Oswald?

Mr. HAMBLEN. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically, I show you a picture marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks like that man who was in your office.

Mr. HAMBLEN. No; I wouldn't say that that was the man that was in there. No resemblance.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to cut your testimony as short as I possibly can, because you are not feeling well. We appreciate your cooperation in coming in when you don't feel well like you have.

Mr. HAMBLEN. I appreciate it. I was in the X-ray all morning and yesterday morning for 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mr. Hamblen, for coming in. I appreciate it very much.

Mr. HAMBLEN. If I can help you any further, well, you have my address.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will get in touch with you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT GENE FENLEY

The testimony of Robert Gene Fenley, was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert Gene Fenley. Mr. Fenley, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Fenley, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, I understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a letter request mailed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, which you received about 4 days ago?

Mr. FENLEY. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please rise so I may administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FENLEY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. FENLEY. Robert Gene Fenley.

Mr. HUBERT. G-e-n-e is your middle name?

Mr. FENLEY. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. FENLEY. 3701 Strayhorn Drive, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Fenley?

Mr. FENLEY. Reporter for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. FENLEY. Nine years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. FENLEY. Thirty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in newspaper work before you joined the Times Herald?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper?

Mr. FENLEY. Prior to the Times Herald, I was with the Lubbock Avalanche Journal, the Denton Record Chronicle, and the Pryor, Oklahoma, Times Democrat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to college, sir?

Mr. FENLEY. I went to Oklahoma University.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you graduate?

Mr. FENLEY. Four years. No; I did not graduate.

Mr. HUBERT. Study journalism?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; part of the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Your whole adult experience, I gather, therefore, has been in newspaper work?

Mr. FENLEY. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a Mr. Hamblen connected with the Western Union Co. here in Dallas?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I have talked with him on one occasion. I don't know him personally.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that one occasion?

Mr. FENLEY. The date is rather vague in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us perhaps the occasion?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am a stringer.

Mr. HUBERT. A what?

Mr. FENLEY. A stringer. A correspondent for Time magazine, and I had written a long piece which we transmitted by Western Union, and I had gone into Western Union to hand this over for transmitting, and I fell in conversation with Mr. Hamblen.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known him prior to that time?

Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about what time of day it was?

Mr. FENLEY. It was at night. I forget the exact time of night, but I believe I had driven from Mesquite with the story to give it to Western Union. It might have been 11 or 12 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. It happened that Hamblen was the clerk or employee of the Western Union in service?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you came to engage him in conversation?

Mr. FENLEY. He noticed the wire or press message which I had, and it had to do with the assassination, or Oswald, frankly. I can't remember the content of the wire, but we sort of chatted there for a moment, and he recalled that he was certain that Oswald had come into the office on occasion.

I don't know whether he used the word several. I took it to mean that. And received some various small amounts of money orders. And certainly this was interesting to me. We kept chatting and I asked him, now how big were the amounts of the orders, and he said, "I don't think there would be anything over $15, $10 or $15." And I asked him, "Now, you are pretty sure this was Oswald? I mean, the guy you have seen in the pictures and things like that?" And he replied he was. He said, "He used to come in and would give the girls a hard time. He was a cantankerous individual."

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what girls?

Mr. FENLEY. No; not by name. So he said, "I believe the last time"--and he couldn't recall the date or anything--"that he came in, he went himself to wait on the fellow because he knew that he was sort of difficult to deal with." Well, this was certainly interesting to me as a newspaperman.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard that story before?

Mr. FENLEY. No; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your coming upon this story was something of a gratuity?

Mr. FENLEY. It certainly was. I was slightly amazed. And the other thing, there was a marble countertop there in the office, and he said, or he recalled that Oswald had written in what he described a curious sort of printing with, as best he could tell, he wrote out some letters. For instance, an "N" he said as printed by Oswald would have a high rising right side to it. He said it was a rather curious sort of printing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he demonstrate that to you?

Mr. FENLEY. He demonstrated this on the marble.

Mr. HUBERT. Hamblen did so?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that it was in a foreign alphabet?

Mr. FENLEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a peculiar art?

Mr. FENLEY. I took it to be certainly the English alphabet, but with a peculiar sort of printing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what was the nature of the difficulty that he had had on previous occasions with the man he said was Oswald?

Mr. FENLEY. Nothing other than an indication that Oswald was difficult to deal with.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't say how he was difficult to deal with?

Mr. FENLEY. No; not specifically. Well, at this moment I thought, well, this sounds like quite an interesting story. And Hamblen gave me his card. So I went home, and the next day----

Mr. HUBERT. How long was the conversation?

Mr. FENLEY. Oh, not over 10 minutes long. I asked him also, which I failed to mention, how could we get the records, or how could anyone get the records, and he indicated it would be very difficult.

Of course, this would be very helpful if you would get the names or the identification of people who had sent any money orders to Oswald, and he indicated that there were so many of that type of money order coming in that they just couldn't keep all the records. And I got the impression that it would be either impossible or almost impossible to run it down.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned, I think, that you were particularly interested as to the certainty of his identification of Oswald as the man, and that you made some inquiry along that line?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do by way of testing him, as it were, on that identification?

Mr. FENLEY. Well, as I said, I went home that night, and, of course, we don't have--we are an afternoon newspaper and don't have deadlines until the morning.

The next morning I went to talk to our police reporter, whose name is George Carter, and I hold him what Hamblen had told me. I said I am not too sure of it. I think it needs a double check. And he said, well, I know the guy.

Mr. HUBERT. Meaning Hamblen?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; he said he knew the fellow over at Western Union, and he said, "I know he is in at Mike's, which is a little barbecue stand across from the city hall." Hamblen would come into Mike's on occasion, and George knew him.

And I said, "George, why don't you go talk to him and see if he will tell you the same thing?" And George did. When he did, we compared notes, and he had told George just precisely, as best we knew, the same content he told me. So George wrote the story.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you yourself make any notes contemporaneously with the conversation with Hamblen or later?

Mr. FENLEY. No; I may have made some at home, jotted down a couple of things on a scrap of paper. In fact, I know I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that available?

Mr. FENLEY. I doubt it. I am sure I have thrown it away. I was very interested in the story, but I was sort of afraid to take notes in front of him, since a lot of people will suddenly freeze up when you start taking notes.

Mr. HUBERT. But to come back to the question of identification, I think you mentioned that it struck you that that was the key to the story, as it were?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you press him in any way about the identification?

Mr. FENLEY. Not a great deal. I really, after asking another question about it, saying, "Now you really feel like you saw Oswald," then I didn't press the matter any further, because I was afraid he would freeze up.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand too that his identification, as he stated it to you, was based upon comparison of the mental image he had of the man that had come in with the pictures of Oswald he had seen since the assassination?

Mr. FENLEY. On television. And frankly, for that reason, I wasn't too darn sure that he knew what he was talking about. So I mean, you always have this suspicion that somebody is trying to identify in the case or something, and this is precisely why I went to Carter and said, "Why don't you talk to him?"

Mr. HUBERT. In other words even on that day you were wondering whether this man really had seen Oswald or not?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you anything about Oswald having come to collect any money order in company with the person of Spanish or Latin American appearance?

Mr. FENLEY. No; he did one thing, and I am really squeezing my memory here. I believe he said he thought he lived at the "Y" on one occasion, that he came over again--I am not too certain of that because all of this business is really, there is so much of this jumbled up, but I do believe he said he thought he was living at the "Y."

Mr. HUBERT. There was no other person present when you spoke to Hamblen?

Mr. FENLEY. There were people in the foyer of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. But no one in this conversation?

Mr. FENLEY. No one immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Hamblen know who you were?

Mr. FENLEY. I think so, being that I did send the telegram addressed to Time, Inc., and signed Robert Fenley of Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did this conversation occur after your story had been filed, or while it was being filed, or interspersed?

Mr. FENLEY. Interspersed.

Mr. HUBERT. And he volunteered all of this?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the beginning of it?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I certainly forgot what preceded his volunteering it, but it was a volunteered thing. Certainly I couldn't have had any information to question him.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, you did not have any information about this at all?

Mr. FENLEY. No; it took me rather by surprise.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there is one other matter. You indicated you didn't know what day this occurred on, and I wonder if there is any way you could fix it? It would have been, I suppose, after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; certainly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after?

Mr. FENLEY. It wasn't too long after that. Now I remember one other person who came in, and oddly enough he didn't hear the conversation, but there is sort of a coincidence that at the door was a fellow by the name of Marsh Clark who is also a full-time Time man.

Mr. HUBERT. With what?

Mr. FENLEY. I believe he is in Detroit or Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. With what?

Mr. FENLEY. Time. And also I saw that he had a long thick file, and I casually inquired who he was with, and it turned out he was with Time also. Marsh, I don't believe--in fact I am fairly certain--did not hear what Hamblen had told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Marsh Clark come in, or did you see him after your conversation was over?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I made myself acquainted to him after the conversation with Hamblen, but he was the only other person that I could identify as being there. I was trying to think by that--now Marsh was still in town, so it must not have been--we could go back to the file on this thing and find that story, and it would have been about 2 days before that story appeared.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me make this point to you. I notice from the calendar that I have before me of the year 1963 that November 28 was Thursday and was Thanksgiving. Could you relate this meeting with Hamblen to that date?

Mr. FENLEY. It seems to me it might be--my memory on these things is terrible--but it seems to me that it might have been around Thanksgiving, now that you mention it.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within the week immediately succeeding the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. FENLEY. I couldn't be positive, but I think it could have been; yes. This could be checked very easily by going to the newspaper file and getting the date and then going back a couple of days.

Mr. HUBERT. This Mr. Carter, I think you said, checked with Mr. Hamblen? That is, he told you he did?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On the same day that you told him about it, which was the next day?

Mr. FENLEY. The next day after; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that he said that you suggested that he check it out with Hamblen, and that he did right away, or in a few hours?

Mr. FENLEY. I would have written the story myself, except I felt a little dubious, I must say, of it and I wanted George to do the same thing and see if the story matched. So now, frankly, I am not too positive when George actually talked to Hamblen, but I believe the story appeared on a Saturday morning. So if it could have been Thanksgiving, if Thanksgiving would be on a Thursday, and George talked to him on Friday, it would appear for the Saturday paper.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have a recollection that Clark spoke to you after having spoken to Hamblen?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes; I am certain of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Before the story appeared?

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And told you that the story he got from Hamblen was about the same as what you told him Hamblen told you?

Mr. FENLEY. You mean Carter?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; George Carter.

Mr. FENLEY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else, sir, you would like to comment upon concerning this matter?

Mr. FENLEY. No; Gee, I wish I--I am still very curious about this, but what results, if any, this yielded, frankly, I don't mean this for the record, but I frankly heard that he recanted the tale.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this. This is a part of the formality of closing these depositions. I don't think, and I ask you to state whether you concur, that there has been any conversation between us this morning other than that which has been recorded in this deposition?

Mr. FENLEY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You do concur?

Mr. FENLEY. I concur.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. FENLEY. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF AUBREY LEE LEWIS

The testimony of Aubrey Lee Lewis was taken at 11:30 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dean Robert G. Story, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas and Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, were present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Aubrey Lee Lewis. Mr. Lewis, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Lewis, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now I understand, Mr. Lewis, that you appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that?

Mr. LEWIS. It was Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday, the 10th, is that correct?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LEWIS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. LEWIS. Aubrey Lee Lewis.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. LEWIS. 2321 Tolosa Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LEWIS. I am an assistant branch manager.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what?

Mr. LEWIS. Western Union Telegraph Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. LEWIS. 7620 Lemmon Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. In what city?

Mr. LEWIS. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LEWIS. Five years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. LEWIS. U.S. Navy.

Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that?

Mr. LEWIS. High school.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. LEWIS. Twenty-six.

Mr. HUBERT. So that all of your adult life you have been employed by the Western Union?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you held the same position all that time?

Mr. LEWIS. No; I have held the same position about the last year and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. What are your general duties in that capacity?

Mr. LEWIS. I am an operator to receive and send telegrams, and advise the other personnel, instruct the new personnel about the daily routine of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that branch number known by a particular designation or number?

Mr. LEWIS. It is B-2 branch office.

Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes; 7620 Lemmon Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. C. A. Hamblen?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?

Mr. LEWIS. Curtis.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he employed by the Western Union?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. LEWIS. At 2034 Main, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the downtown office?

Mr. LEWIS. That is the main branch; yes, sir; main office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. LEWIS. I have known him the better part of 5 years. About 4-1/2.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever worked with him?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LEWIS. You mean what years, or when?

Mr. HUBERT. I have specifically in mind sometime prior to November 26.

Mr. LEWIS. I worked under him nearly 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. LEWIS. That was at the main office, 2034 Main. He is the early night manager.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Main Street branch?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under him at the Main Street branch until about 2 years ago?

Mr. LEWIS. About a year and a half ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you working with him either at the Main Street branch or at the other branch that you mentioned sometime during the fall of 1963?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that? Which one?

Mr. LEWIS. That was at the Main Street; 2034 Main.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be working there?

Mr. LEWIS. I was pulled in from my job because they were short downtown. People were on vacation.

Mr. HUBERT. How long a period did you work with Mr. Hamblen then at the Main branch?

Mr. LEWIS. I was down 2 weeks altogether, and he was out the first week. I relieved him the first week, and then I relieved this other fellow the second week, and I worked under him the second week I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you worked under Mr. Hamblen at the Main branch during the early night shift for 1 week?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you place that week?

Mr. LEWIS. It was in October, I believe. I am not for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a matter of record on this part?

Mr. LEWIS. It is in the paper there. I don't know exactly what date it was.

Mr. HUBERT. I now show you a photostatic copy of a document dated Dallas, Tex., December 4, 1963, addressed to Mr. Wilcox, apparently signed by Aubrey Lee Lewis, which has heretofore been identified as follows: "Exhibit No. 3006 in the deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964, WJL." I have shown you this photostatic copy of this document which I have just described, and I now ask you if that is a photostat of your signature?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this document addressed to Mr. Wilcox and identified as I have stated a moment ago, a correct statement of facts, so far as you know?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I wish you would give us further details concerning the incident to which reference is made in this Exhibit No. 3006, Wilcox' deposition, with reference to Hamblen's difficulty with a man named Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, as I said, I was working the early night money order counter, and this party approached me and said he had a money order, and I asked him for his identification, which he didn't have any at that time. And I asked him could he obtain some, and he said he guessed he could if he had to. He left and came back with some identification. I believe it was a little Navy ID release card. And I paid him on that. He gave me quite a bit of trouble.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what nature?

Mr. LEWIS. Oh, he was cursing and telling how lousy everything was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in that matter?

Mr. LEWIS. I beg your pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen have any part in this matter?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, yes. When we have difficulty with anybody, he comes up and helps us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up on this occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to this individual?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what conversation or statements passed between Mr. Hamblen and the individual?

Mr. LEWIS. It was just about the identification, about that you have to have it before you can get your money.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time when the man went off to get the identification?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was Mr. Hamblen with this man?

Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure. I don't really know.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with him on the first occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. The first occasion I would say about 4 to 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how long after having left to get the identification did he come back with his identification you referred to?

Mr. LEWIS. It wasn't long. I would say about 15 to 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen see him then?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. LEWIS. Because he came back up to the counter.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hamblen did?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that? Did you ask him to?

Mr. LEWIS. He saw him come in, and he came back and helped me out with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this person disagreeable on the second occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. He was somewhat disagreeable--still in a nasty mood--you might say.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say nasty mood, could you give us an example of what physically happened that you characterize as nasty?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, cursing and telling us how lousy we are, and that he had been paid money orders before and never had to have any identification. And just generally what everybody else tells us. It is nothing new. We hear it quite often.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember this person's name?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Hamblen tell you that he had had difficulty with this man prior to this occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had ever cashed any money orders for this person prior to this occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. I don't believe so, no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any address to the payee?

Mr. LEWIS. The YMCA is the only address that he gave me.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the telegram money order addressed to the YMCA?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; as far as I can remember, it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, as I understand it, it must have come in with the telegram?

Mr. LEWIS. He came in with the check.

Mr. HUBERT. The check?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Your recollection is, the check was addressed to the YMCA, to an individual at the Y?

Mr. LEWIS. We have a rubber stamp at each branch office which is stamped at the top of their checks where it was issued, and as I recall, it was issued at the Cotton Exchange office.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Cotton Exchange office?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. LEWIS. Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there was someone in Dallas sending a money order from the Cotton Exchange office?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. That is where it was addressed, to the Cotton Exchange. That is where the money order was sent to. I have no idea where it was sent from.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what is this part then about, YMCA?

Mr. LEWIS. We have an "Office Issued" and there is a rubber stamp on the check where it was issued at, but I have no idea or know where it was coming from. That was where the check was written up at, at the Cotton Exchange.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was addressed to the payee?

Mr. LEWIS. To the payee at the YMCA.

Mr. HUBERT. How are those checks handled? For instance, when it was issued by the Cotton Exchange branch, would it have been mailed or delivered?

Mr. LEWIS. Delivered by boy.

Mr. HUBERT. Delivered by boy?

Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk.

Mr. HUBERT. To the addressee?

Mr. LEWIS. To the clerk at the YMCA. The clerk signs for it and keeps them there in a little box they have there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether this was done in this case? That is to say, that the clerk receipted for it at the YMCA?

Mr. LEWIS. So far as I know, that is how it was handled.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean if you know that absolutely, or are you just assuming that is the way?

Mr. LEWIS. I am just assuming that is the way it was handled.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any particular knowledge on this occasion?

Mr. LEWIS. No; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of this individual?

Mr. LEWIS. The only thing I could remember was that he was of a feminine, very slender build fellow.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, he talked funny and peculiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an accent?

Mr. LEWIS. No accent. Just the way a person acts.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his mannerism?

Mr. LEWIS. Mannerism was feminine.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, I don't know how to describe it.

Mr. HUBERT. Just an overall impression?

Mr. LEWIS. Just an overall impression, of the person. As far as remembering his weight and height and everything like that, I wouldn't. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dark complexioned?

Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color of his eyes?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had dark hair?

Mr. LEWIS. That is the only thing I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall that either.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. There was a companion with him.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that the person with him was with him? In fact was a companion?

Mr. LEWIS. They were talking. They came together and left together both times.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that the companion of the payee that we have been talking about was of a Latin American or Spanish type?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes; that I do recall.

Mr. HUBERT. By that, you mean what?

Mr. LEWIS. Dark complexioned, and just looked of Spanish descent.

Mr. HUBERT. Latin American?

Mr. LEWIS. Latin American descent.

Mr. HUBERT. They were speaking English?

Mr. LEWIS. Normal speech in English.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any Spanish accent?

Mr. LEWIS. The fellow had a Spanish accent.

Mr. HUBERT. He was accompanied by the boy with a Spanish accent?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything else that happened?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I wasn't paying much attention to him.

Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean the exact conversation, but just the general situation.

Mr. LEWIS. No; I wouldn't know.

Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the person of Spanish accent insofar as build and size and weight?

Mr. LEWIS. He was of short and slender build.

Mr. HUBERT. Shorter than the payee?

Mr. LEWIS. About the same.

Mr. HUBERT. About the same weight?

Mr. LEWIS. Approximately, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how much the money order was for?

Mr. LEWIS. No; it was for a small amount. I don't recall the exact amount.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never had any other business with this payee before?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any afterward?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Hamblen did not mention to you that he had had any before?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. The first time I knew about that was when we went into our district manager's office.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which I have marked for identification on the back thereof on the lower right-hand corner the following words: "Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of Aubrey L. Lewis." I ask you if this picture resembles the person that you have been testifying about as the payee on the occasion you have mentioned?

Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say if it resembled him.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection whether it looks like him at all?

Mr. LEWIS. I sure don't.

Mr. HUBERT. You said he had dark hair?

Mr. LEWIS. That is true. He had dark hair, but as far as any features, I don't remember the eyes or nose or anything. I don't recall them.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall, as I understand from your statement, that the man's name was Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir; I do not recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the fact that Mr. Hamblen says he was Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I am familiar with that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember?

Mr. LEWIS. I don't remember.

Mr. HUBERT. You cannot tell us now whether or not the picture shown in Exhibit No. 1, which in fact is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, was the man you have been testifying about as the payee of that money order?

Mr. LEWIS. I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you say for sure either way that it was or it was not?

Mr. LEWIS. No; I can't be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it could be and it could not be?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it could be and it couldn't be. I have no way of knowing.

Mr. HUBERT. You will not say it was not that man?

Mr. LEWIS. I wouldn't say it wasn't, but I wouldn't say it was, because it could be. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall making any comments to Mr. Hamblen on the occasion that you have been testifying about, and after this payee had left, that you would like to punch the heads of people of this character?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes; I made that statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You made that statement to Mr. Hamblen?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why was that?

Mr. LEWIS. Well, he is just a person that kind of gives you a bad time. You can do without that kind. You don't have time to fool with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first come to your attention that it was possible that the man that had dealings with you, as you have testified, might be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. Mr. Hamblen, after I had gone back on my job quite sometime, called me at home one night and asked me did I recall when I had paid that party, and I told him I recalled it.

And he asked me did I recognize him as being Oswald, and I said, "No, I have never put it together." I just never did. And I still can't picture the two. I had forgotten all about it.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it that Hamblen approached you, as you say he did, and asked you about this?

Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall the date, but it was a couple of weeks after the assassination, after he was killed.

Mr. HUBERT. You say then it was about the first week in December?

Mr. LEWIS. I would say somewhere along in there. I am not for sure, but it was a short time span.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it thus have been about 2 months after you had had this episode, that this episode occurred between you and this man?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then your memory did not associate the payee with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time had you been shown or looked at pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LEWIS. I had seen him on TV.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you at any time prior to today been shown a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald as I have shown it to you?

Mr. LEWIS. I don't recall if Mr. Wilcox had one or not. I am not sure. But I saw it in the newspapers and on TV, and I don't recall seeing one that day. I could have. He possibly had one.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am talking about is the day that inquiry was focused upon the possibility of this payee as Lee Harvey Oswald. Were you then shown a picture and asked if it was that man as I have done today?

Mr. LEWIS. I believe I was. I am not for sure, but I believe Mr. Wilcox had one at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have described the identification card which this payee ultimately produced and which you ultimately recognized?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe you said it was a Navy ID card?

Mr. LEWIS. It was a little release card you get when you get out of the service.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a picture on it?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir. It just had his name and some of them have serial numbers and some of them don't.

Mr. HUBERT. So the identification established then was that the person who held the telegram also held a card addressed to the payee of the telegram?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a library card as well?

Mr. LEWIS. I believe it was a library card also.

Mr. HUBERT. That didn't have any picture?

Mr. LEWIS. That didn't have a picture; no. This ID that he had wasn't very good at all, as far as we considered identification to pay money orders.

Mr. HUBERT. Why not?

Mr. LEWIS. We like to have pictures on identification and some legal papers, you might say; insurance and driver's license.

Mr. HUBERT. Driver's license?

Mr. LEWIS. Driver's license; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask for that?

Mr. LEWIS. I asked for it, and he didn't have any.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he didn't drive?

Mr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. He said he didn't have any license.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it was about a half hour after the first episode that he returned with the other identification?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both occasions?

Mr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything to add?

Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from the Western Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had been purchased by someone and payable to the payee involved at the Cotton Exchange branch?

Mr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; it is in the Cotton Exchange Building. I think it is on North Ervay.[F]

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that since I have met you today, which was the first time we ever met, there has been no conversation between us other than that which has been covered in the deposition in one way or another, is that correct?

Mr. LEWIS. That's correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir.

[F] 608 North St. Paul, one block from Ervay and YMCA.

TESTIMONY OF DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS JR.

The testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Dean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, as you know by now, I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to take your deposition pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress, No. 137.

I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last week to be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the proceeding.

As you are a member of the bar--as you know, of course, you are entitled to counsel, but you can probably forego that if you want to. You also know that you have all the usual privileges not to answer questions on the grounds of incrimination and whatever other privileges you might have and want to exercise.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle initial is A, A for Adams, Andrews, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are a member of the Bar of Louisiana?

Mr. ANDREWS. I am a member of the bar of the State of Louisiana.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you regularly practice law in the city of New Orleans?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairie Lawn Drive. That's in Metairie, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Metairie Lawn Drive in Metairie?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you maintain your offices?

Mr. ANDREWS. 627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee Harvey Oswald came into your office some time during the summer of 1963. Would you tell us in your own words just what happened as far as that is concerned?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: Oswald came in the office accompanied by some gay kids. They were Mexicanos. He wanted to find out what could be done in connection with a discharge, a yellow paper discharge, so I explained to him he would have to advance the funds to transcribe whatever records they had up in the Adjutant General's office. When he brought the money, I would do the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent to that, not in the company of the gay kids. He had this Mexicano with him. I assume he is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time he came in he was with these Mexicans, and there were also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that appeared to you to be homosexuals?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call them gay kids.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before?

Mr. ANDREWS. None of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen any of them since?

Mr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came in?

Mr. LIEBELER. Since the first time they came in?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ever come back with Oswald?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time?

Mr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing clothes of the opposite sex.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many of them were there?

Mr. ANDREWS. About 50.

Mr. LIEBELER. They weren't all with Oswald, were they?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald--you see, they made what they call a scoop and put them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They were in the holding pavilion. I paroled them and got them out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay kids, is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the time the police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes of the opposite sex were the ones that had been with Oswald?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to identify them by name?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; you see, they just--we don't even open up files on them. We don't open a file. We mark what we call a working file. We make a few notes and put it in the general week's work. If you come back and the office is retained, we make a permanent file and--but these kids come and go like--you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you have told us?

Mr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time in May. I went and checked the records. I couldn't find nothing on it. I believe it's May of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 1963?

Mr. ANDREWS. On Friday.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was after Oswald had been in your office?

Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think he had come back with this Mexicano one more time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before these people were arrested?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second time he came back, we talked about the yellow paper discharge, about his status as a citizen, and about his wife's status.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get into that, let me try and pin down how long it was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all got arrested. All 50 of them for wearing these clothes?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know it was 50. That I can't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; it wasn't that. Ten days at the most.

Mr. LIEBELER. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would reflect the dates these people were picked up?

Mr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are there, but I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just like you and I wear clothes. Today their name is Candy; tomorrow it is Butsie; next day it is Mary. You never know what they are. Names are a very improbable method of identification. More sight. Like you see a dog. He is black and white. That's your dog. You know them by sight mostly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what date it was that that large arrest was made?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean them all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all the humbug out. They have been doing that very effectively. You can pick just any Friday.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was on a Friday?

Mr. ANDREWS. It had to be a Friday or Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. In May of 1963?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw these kids at this big pickup on Friday or Saturday, did you ever see any of them again after that?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; still looking for them. They owe me a fee.

Mr. LIEBELER. They are always the hardest ones to find.

Mr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed in.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say to you about his own citizenship status? You say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. What did he talk to you about in that regard?

Mr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as I recall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He didn't say how; he didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the people who wanted to join The Free World and--I represented one or two of them. They had belonged to The World Citizenship--I explained to him there are certain steps he had to do, such as taking an oath of loyalty to a foreign power, voting in a foreign country election, or some method that is recognized defectively as loss of citizenship. Then I told him, "Your presence in the United States is proof you are a citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration with a green card, form 990."

Mr. LIEBELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had gone?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he was back and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation?

Mr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions--I don't know which visit it was--about citizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin cited for citizenship purposes--that's what counts--and he said Russia, so I just assumed he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in Russia or in Europe, married them, and brought them over here as a GI, a GI bride, and wanted to go through the routine of naturalization, which is 3 years after lawful admission into the United States if you are married, and five years if you are not, maintain the status here in the States cumulatively for 5 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he wanted to institute citizenship proceedings for his wife?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms. Cost him $10. All he had to do was execute them. He didn't need a lawyer. That was the end of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did he come into your office?

Mr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting initial visit.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you talk about different subjects at different times? As I understand it, the first time he came there, he was primarily concerned about his discharge, is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed because with the company he kept and the conversation--he could talk fairly well--I figured that this was another one of what we call in my office free alley clients, so we didn't maintain the normalcy with the file that--might have scratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2 days later threw the whole thing away. Didn't pay too much attention to him. Only time I really paid attention to this boy, he was in the front of the Maison Blanche Building giving out these kooky Castro things.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this, approximately?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building, and I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that junk out. He said it was a job. I reminded him of the $25 he owed the office. He said he would come over there, but he never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this literature?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he was being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?

Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the $25. I may have it confused, the $25. What I do recall, he said it was a job. I guess I asked him how much he was making. They were little square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets?

Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues of Castro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of guys, Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see you fooling with these things.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were they like?

Mr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What color were the pamphlets? You say it was white paper?

Mr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper?

Mr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think it is black and white.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are colorblind?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give it to them, the people look at it and they drop it, right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you saw him handing this stuff out?

Mr. ANDREWS. It was in the middle of the week, around Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is the Maison Blanche Building? What street is it on?

Mr. ANDREWS. 921 Canal Street. It is on this side. It is bounded by Dauphine and Burgundy.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from the International Trade Mart?

Mr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp Street, it would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the cemetery; so it would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no matter which way you went, but you would walk four blocks on Common Street or Gravier, and then two blocks over the other way.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has been marked as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize the individual in that picture and the street scene, if you are familiar with it.

Mr. ANDREWS. This is Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the fellow who was in your office?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about that in your mind?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe; no. This is him. I just can't place it. This isn't where I saw him. This is probably around the vicinity of the International Trade Mart.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you another picture that has been marked for identification as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture and the street scene.

Mr. ANDREWS. Oswald is marked with an X, and a client of mine is over here on the right-hand side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that a a paying client or what?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; paying client [indicating]. And this dress belongs to a girl friend.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is your client?

Mr. ANDREWS. It should be three. There's two sisters and this young lady [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. What's her name?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the woman that appears on the far right-hand side of the picture with a handbag on her arm?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say Oswald is marked with an X, and you identify that as the man that you saw in your office and the same man you saw passing out pamphlets?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention specifically to the second man who is standing behind Oswald to his right and facing toward the front wearing a white, short-sleeved shirt and necktie, who also appears to have some leaflets in his hand. Have you ever seen that man before?

Mr. ANDREWS. The Mexicano that I associate Oswald with is approximately the same height, with the exception that he has a pronounced short butch haircut. He is stocky, well built.

Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow that I have indicated to you on "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" is too slightly built to be associated with Oswald; is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. He is stocky. Has what they call an athletic build.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this other fellow taller than Oswald or shorter than Oswald?

Mr. ANDREWS. Very close. Not taller. Probably same height; maybe a little smaller.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much would you say the Mexican weighed, approximately?

Mr. ANDREWS. About 160, 165.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say he was of medium build or heavy build?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, stocky. He could go to "Fist City" pretty good if he had to.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old would you say he was?

Mr. ANDREWS. About 26. Hard to tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he was wearing when he came into the office with Oswald on these different occasions?

Mr. ANDREWS. Normally, different colored silk pongee shirts, which are pretty rare, you know, for the heat, or what appeared to be pongee material.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to this other fellow?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, he talked Spanish, and all I told him was poco poco. That was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish?

Mr. ANDREWS. I can understand a little. I can if you speak it. I can read it. That's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which has been marked "Frank Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that is the same man that was in your office and the same man you say was passing out literature in the street.

Mr. ANDREWS. It appears to be.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this Mexican again if you saw him?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you wouldn't be able to recognize him again if you saw him?

Mr. ANDREWS. Probably did. Been a long time. There's three people I am going to find: One of them is the real guy that killed the President; the Mexican; and Clay Bertrand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have considerable doubt in your mind that Oswald killed the President?

Mr. ANDREWS. I know good and well he did not. With that weapon, he couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that short time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion on reports that you have received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period of time; is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. I am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman in the Navy. You can lean into those things, and with throwing the bolts--if I couldn't do it myself, 8 hours a day, doing this for a living, constantly on the range, I know this civilian couldn't do it. He might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have used a pronoun in this last series of statements, the pronoun "it." You are making certain assumptions as to what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to what happened based on material you read in the newspaper?

Mr. ANDREWS. It doesn't make any difference. What you have to do is lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, this boy couldn't do it. Forget the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. You base that judgment on the fact that, in your own experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing?

Mr. ANDREWS. You have to stay with it. You just don't pick up a rifle or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with it. You have to know what you are doing. You have to be a conniver. This boy could have connived the deal, but I think he is a patsy. Somebody else pulled the trigger.

Mr. LIEBELER. However, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. You don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that statement; is that correct? If you do, I want to know what it is.

Mr. ANDREWS. If I did, I would give it to you. It's just taking the 5 years and thinking about it a bit. I have fired as much as 40,000 rounds of ammo a day for 7 days a week. You get pretty good with it as long as you keep firing. Then I have gone back after 2 weeks. I used to be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop 100 out of 100. After 2 weeks, I could only pop 60 of them. I would have to start shooting again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. Every other person I knew, same thing happened to them. You just have to stay at it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see Oswald at any time subsequent to that time you saw him in the street handing out literature?

Mr. ANDREWS. I have never seen him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what month that was, approximately?

Mr. ANDREWS. Summertime. Before July. I think the last time would be around--the last could have been, I guess, around the 10th of July.

Mr. LIEBELER. Around the 10th of July?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe it was after that. It could have been before, but not after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned this Mexican that accompanied Oswald to your office. Have you seen him at any time subsequent to the last time Oswald came into your office?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately how long a period of time elapsed from the last time Oswald came into your office to the last time you saw him in the street handing out literature?

Mr. ANDREWS. I would say about 6 weeks, just guessing.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time since then?

Mr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican community here is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the Latin community. He is not known around here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the assassination?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success?

Mr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him handing out literature?

Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with him or not, I wouldn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear that there was anybody else helping him hand out literature?

Mr. ANDREWS. There was one person, but they had no literature. They weren't giving anything out. Let me see that picture of that little bitty guy, that weasel before.

Mr. LIEBELER. [handing picture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. ANDREWS. No; he resembled this boy, but it is not him. It is a pale face instead of a Latin.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he give you any idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; he just said, "It's a job."

Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is, of course, that you are here under subpena and subpena duces tecum, asking you to bring with you any records that you might have in your office indicating or reflecting Oswald's visit, and my understanding is that you indicated that you were unable to find any such records.

Mr. ANDREWS. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I got out of the hospital, and I talked with the FBI people. We couldn't find anything prior to it. Whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going through it, we haven't found anything since.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have caused a thorough search to be made of your office for these records?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't been able to come up with anything?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after the assassination when you had some further involvement with Oswald, or at least an apparent involvement with Oswald; as I understand it?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing at all with Oswald. I was in Hotel Dieu, and the phone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand asked me if I would go to Dallas and Houston--I think--Dallas, I guess, wherever it was that this boy was being held--and defend him. I told him I was sick in the hospital. If I couldn't go, I would find somebody that could go.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's where I was when the call came through. It came through the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't in shape enough to go to Dallas and defend him and I would see what I could do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You met him prior to that time?

Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably a couple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of gay kids normally, either to obtain bond or parole for them. I would assume that he was the one that originally sent Oswald and the gay kids, these Mexicanos, to the office because I had never seen those people before at all. They were just walk-ins.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time about 2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that you have just told us about?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he is mostly a voice on the phone.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay Bertrand asking you to defend Oswald?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately following the assassination?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. I guess I did because I was--they told me I was squirrelly in the hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had pneumonia; is that right?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And as I understand it, you were under heavy sedation at that time in connection with your treatment for pneumonia?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called my secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey Oswald's file. Of course, she didn't remember, and I had to tell her about all the kooky kids. She thought we had a file in the office. I would assume that he would have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. I am pretty sure it was before the assassination. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean before the assassination--don't you mean before Oswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald had been shot?

Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's arrest and prior to his----

Mr. LIEBELER. His death?

Mr. ANDREWS. His death.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI is that you first advised the FBI of this, telling them that you recall that Clay Bertrand had called you at some time between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you remember telling the FBI about that?

Mr. ANDREWS. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not, but that's probably correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what time approximately that Clay Bertrand did call you?

Mr. ANDREWS. I will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got fed, it was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about the right time. It's around that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you called your secretary and asked her if she remembered the Oswald file; is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; she didn't remember Oswald at all. She knows that occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she had remembered something, but nothing of any value.

Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember that after you got out of the hospital, you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you made to her at home?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that you called her at approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November 23, 1963?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you--let's take it one step further: Do you also recall the fact that your private investigator spent most of that afternoon with you in your hospital room?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was there with you?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; Preston M. Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what time he left?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been before you called your secretary or afterwards?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you called?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; after.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you called your secretary?

Mr. ANDREWS. Let's see. He wasn't there when I made the phone call. He wasn't there when Clay Bertrand called me, I am pretty sure, because he would have remembered it if I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that you received the telephone call from Clay Bertrand?

Mr. ANDREWS. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call from Clay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because I would have talked to him about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he left before you called your secretary?

Mr. ANDREWS. I think he left around chow time, which, I think, is around 4 o'clock. I could be wrong.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked about here the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing it with the FBI, have you come up with any solution in your own mind to the apparent problems that exist here? That is to say, that your recollection is that you called your secretary after you received the call from Clay Bertrand and you called your secretary at 4 o'clock, which would indicate that you must have received the call from Clay Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive the call from Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approximately 4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to which, you first recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the time factor I can't help you with. It is impossible. But I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary--if I couldn't get her to verify it, I would tell you that I was smoking weed. You know, sailing out on cloud 9.

Mr. LIEBELER. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call her?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but it isn't. It's just that I can't place--other than what I told Regis Kennedy and John Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But if it hadn't been for calling her and asking her----

Mr. LIEBELER. To look up the Oswald file or if she remembered the Oswald file?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I would just say I have a pretty vivid imagination and let's just forget it. Anything other than the law practice--I would say that what Regis suspects is that I was full of that dope, but I normally take certain steps, and this is the way I would have done it is what I did. I called her. Had Davis been there when the call came in, Davis would have been told, and he would have left the hospital, went down to the office, and shook the office down for the file, and called me from there before he went home. I know it couldn't have come in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is either medication or food. Of course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much interested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty sure it was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up that the call came in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, they fed you more than once up there?

Mr. ANDREWS. They feed three times a day, but they don't feed you enough to keep a sparrow alive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, you are not able to clarify for us the sequence of what happened?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent Saturday afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then I ate, and the phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive it wasn't as late as 9 o'clock. I think the latest it could have been is 6, but Miss Springer says I called her some time around 4, 4:30--I don't know which.

Mr. LIEBELER. Miss Springer is your secretary?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you recall talking to an FBI agent, Regis L. Kennedy, and Carl L. Schlaeger on November 25?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember--Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't even know if he was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen him, much less talk to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Kennedy was; yes?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. They usually go around in pairs?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they work in teams, so he's got to have been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now----

Mr. ANDREWS. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, and the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Feebees?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's what we call the Federal guys. All of a sudden, like a big hurricane, here they come.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought that Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had been in the office earlier last spring?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald?

Mr. ANDREWS. Not that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a picture in your mind of this Clay Bertrand?

Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, I ran up on that rat about 6 weeks ago and he spooked, ran in the street. I would have beat him with a chain if I had caught him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, before I talked to you about this thing, and I was going to take your deposition at that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your continuing discussions with the FBI, you finally came to the conclusion that Clay Bertrand was a figment of your imagination?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two Feebees are going to put these people on the street looking, and I can't find the guy, and I am not going to tie up all the agents on something that isn't that solid. I told them, "Write what you want, that I am nuts. I don't care." They were running on the time factor, and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get it, get it. I couldn't give it to them. I have been playing cops and robbers with them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the plague. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the description of the situation?

Mr. ANDREWS. It was my decision if they were to stay there. If I decide yes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, "Close your file and go some place else." That's the real reason why it was done. I don't know what they wrote in the report, but that's the real reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran into Clay Bertrand in the street?

Mr. ANDREWS. About 6 weeks ago. I am trying to think of the name of this bar. That's where this rascal bums out. I was trying to get past him so I could get a nickel in the phone and call the Feebees or John Rice, but he saw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him that day?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; if I would have got close enough to talk to him, I would have grabbed him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What does this guy look like?

Mr. ANDREWS. He is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion. Must weigh about 165, 170, 175. He really took off, that rascal.

Mr. LIEBELER. He recognized you?

Mr. ANDREWS. He had to because if he would have let me get to that phone and make the call, he would be in custody.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available to the FBI for interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service?

Mr. ANDREWS. What I wanted to do and should have done is crack him in the head with a bottle, but I figured I would be a good, law-abiding citizen and call them and let them grab him, but I made the biggest mistake of the century. I should have grabbed him right there. I probably will never find him again. He has been bugging me ever since this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now before you ran into Clay Bertrand in the street on this day, did you have a notion in your mind what he looked like?

Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen him before one time to recognize him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had before when you recognized him?

Mr. ANDREWS. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a little fatter, maybe a little skinnier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an interview that Mr. Kennedy had with you on December 5, 1963, in which he reports you as stating that you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being approximately 6 feet 1 inch to 6 feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, and well dressed.

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now this description is different, at least in terms of height of the man, than the one you have just given us of Clay Bertrand.

Mr. ANDREWS. But, you know, I don't play Boy Scouts and measure them. I have only seen this fellow twice in my life. I don't think there is that much in the description. There may be some to some artist, but to me, there isn't that much difference. Might be for you all.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you said he was 5 feet 8 inches before.

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I can't give you any better because this time I was looking for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You meet a guy 2 years ago, you meet him, period.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which time was he sitting down?

Mr. ANDREWS. He was standing up first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you met him on the street the second time when you----

Mr. ANDREWS. No, he was in a barroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting in a bar when you saw him 6 weeks ago?

Mr. ANDREWS. A table at the right-hand side. I go there every now and then spooking for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What's the name of the bar you saw him in that day, do you remember?

Mr. ANDREWS. Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if you didn't see him standing up on that day----

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your mental picture of this man in regard to his height from the first one that you had?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy on December 5 that he was 6 feet 1 to 6 feet 2 and now you have told us that he was 5 feet 8 when at no time did you see the man standing up.

Mr. ANDREWS. Because, I guess, the first time--and I am guessing now----

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this fellow a homosexual, do you say?

Mr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call a swinging cat.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him at any time since that day?

Mr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you had your office searched for any records relating to Clay Bertrand?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you found anything?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past?

Mr. ANDREWS. Prior to--I guess the last time would be February of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, is that right?

Mr. ANDREWS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective, Mr. Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary, have you asked them whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald in the office?

Mr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about closing time. We review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as a group.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right?

Mr. ANDREWS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand?

Mr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, I believe, at the time I knew Bertrand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed it with them?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald came into your office, of course, he told you what his name was, didn't he?

Mr. ANDREWS. Lee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. But that's what he told you?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to Davis at any time prior to November 23, 1963?

Mr. ANDREWS. What the procedure is--I am in a different office now than I was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into it--well, what I would call my office--and they just had the reception room out in the front, and Davis would go out there, and on those matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to Davis?

Mr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time?

Mr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in there. Depends on how bad the police are rousing them. They shoo them in. My best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. God bless the police.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as one of these gay kids?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; I represent them and that's about all there is to it. When they owe me money, I know where to go grab them, and that's about as far as if goes. Is he supposed to be down here?

Mr. LIEBELER. Thornley?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I can find out if he ever made the scene here real easy.

Mr. LIEBELER. No; he is not in New Orleans, I don't think, at the moment. When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what branch of the service he had been in?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged?

Mr. ANDREWS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had?

Mr. ANDREWS. He told me he was dishonorably discharged. That's what I call a yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I think, $15 or $25, I forget which, and to take the service, his rate or rank, the serial number, and to write to the Adjutant General for the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or reconsideration on the file.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; he said he would come back, and he came back, but I still didn't get his serial number and I still didn't get the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do you have a specific recollection on that?

Mr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. He never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. I just assumed it was a B.C.D. if he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in the Army, it's a yellow discharge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he had a job when he first came into your office?

Mr. ANDREWS. Never asked him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with difficulty in obtaining employment?

Mr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. He had a reason why he wanted it reopened. What, I don't recall. He had a reason. I don't recall. He mentioned a reason, but I don't recall. I was trying to remember where they were seated to see if that would help, but no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was.

Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, about 5 feet 6 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. And about how much did he weigh?

Mr. ANDREWS. About 135, 140.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have anything else that you would like to add?

Mr. ANDREWS. I wish I could be more specific, that's all. This is my impression, for whatever it is worth, of Clay Bertrand: His connections with Oswald I don't know at all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief case. That's my opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether this boy is associated with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I would say, when I met him about 6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty good looking for him while I was in the hospital, and somebody might have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for him, but I have never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and the only other part of this thing that I understand, but apparently I haven't been able to communicate, is I called Monk Zelden on a Sunday at the N.O.A.C. and asked Monk if he would go over--be interested in a retainer and go over to Dallas and see about that boy. I thought I called Monk once. Monk says we talked twice. I don't remember the second. It's all one conversation with me. Only thing I do remember about it, while I was talking with Monk, he said, Don't worry about it. Your client just got shot. That was the end of the case. Even if he was a bona fide client, I never did get to him; somebody else got to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole thing, but this boy Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does Bertrand owe you money?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I ain't looking for him for that. I want to find out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was assassinated.

Mr. LIEBELER. How come Bertrand owes you money?

Mr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay the office for.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?

Mr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have--like you are Bertrand. You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, Bertrand has a guarantee for the payment of appearance. One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay?

Mr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any squares that run with them. They may go down to look.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that?

Mr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was there anything striking about the way he carried himself?

Mr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other than into and out of the office. There's nothing that would draw my attention to anything out of the ordinary, but I just assumed that he knew these people and was running with them. They had no reason to come. The three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. They were what we call swishers. You can just look at them. All they had to do was open their mouth. That was it. Walk, they can swing better than Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pronounced ones, you never know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but I have no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with what they call here queens. That's about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first day they came into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you saw them down at the police station?

Mr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never seen them.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were just three of them?

Mr. ANDREWS. The Latin type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin won't, so I assume he is a Mex.

Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether there were five of them that came into the office?

Mr. ANDREWS. Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes--you have the other part--the Secret Service brought me some things. They don't have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with the two Realpey sisters. They are actually in the office, and that shook me down to my toes pretty good.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. The picture you refer to might be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Realpey-Plaza and her sister Marguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young lady's name here at all [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to the three women who are standing----

Mr. ANDREWS. The one facing, standing as you look at it.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one you can't identify?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I have her file in the office. Uncle is a warden at the Parish Prison here in New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the three women that are standing at the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?

Mr. ANDREWS. The girl carrying the pocketbook.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the moment?

Mr. ANDREWS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of the picture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys who were in the office?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but he is Latin looking.

Mr. LIEBELER. He looks like a Latin?

Mr. ANDREWS. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to look for him, but I didn't have a picture of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is that?

Mr. ANDREWS. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars around to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to be found. They are very clannish. There are only certain places they go. Somebody has to remember him. He can't just come into New Orleans and disappear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he has to have some place to sleep and--but I didn't have a picture of him, and nobody--you just can't do it. But a lot of water has run under the stream. He may or may not be here, but it wouldn't be too hard to locate him, you know, with the proper identification.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your friends down the street have been trying to find him and haven't come up with him yet.

Mr. ANDREWS. Debrueys?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ANDREWS. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need Latin stools for that boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. Bertrand and he did run off? Did you see him run off?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I chased him, but I couldn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was when you saw him 6 weeks ago?

Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this barroom is right adjacent to--the street--as you go in, there are two entrances, one on the block side and one on the corner. I had no more idea of finding him than jumping off the bridge. I went in there hoping, and the hope came through. I was so surprised to see him there. I kept working my way there to go to the front when he recognized me and he sprinted out the door on the side of the street and was gone. I had to go past him to go to the phone. I should have conked him with the beer bottle.

Mr. LIEBELER. He took off as soon as he saw you?

Mr. ANDREWS. No; but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was moving towards him.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you can recognize anybody in that picture.

Mr. ANDREWS. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full face towards the looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here [indicating] appears to be familiar, but I would have to blow his face up to be sure. He is in between. See, this one here [indicating]? I have never seen this picture before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and the man who has the arrow over his head?

Mr. ANDREWS. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me a while to place it, but the face appears to be familiar.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen this picture before, is that correct?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various pictures, but you don't recall this one?

Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series where--one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. They may have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a club back in 1946 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy that was a member.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. I want to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the cooperation you have given us.

Mr. ANDREWS. I only wish I could do better.

TESTIMONY OF EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ

The testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Special Agent Richard E. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau of Investigation, was present.

Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, Mr. Logan, as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present during your questioning. You are not required to answer questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. You may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to do that. You are entitled to 3-days' notice under the rules. I assume you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you are here, and I assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are prepared to go ahead without one.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am ready to answer all the questions. I have been advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and I am ready to answer any questions that I can help you with.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Evaristo?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ [writing]. Gibara, Oriente, Cuba. That's the province, Oriente, and the city is Gibara.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. July 26, 1941.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live now?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. 1239 Chartres Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still a citizen of Cuba?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in the United States?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I came here in 1962 on a boat. I was first here in 1962. I was on a boat. And I went to Costa Rica and a few other countries. I came back here in January of 1963. I have been here since January of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. December of 1961.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to leave Cuba?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I left Cuba because they were about to put me in the Armed Forces. I didn't care to. I wasn't in agreement with the present government, so I took off.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you get out?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. On a boat. I came out on a small boat, a small merchant ship.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work on that boat then or where did you go?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I had been working on this boat for about 3 years and 2 months.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the boat that sunk?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of the same company, Barcelona Co., that sunk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then here to New Orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the United States?

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to ask him a couple of things on this because as I get it in my mind, it seems that he was on a boat.

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. First of all, I was on this boat called the Barcelona in the Pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another boat, the San Jose, that first traveled to some other countries, and then when I got to New Orleans, this is where I asked for my political asylum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 Decatur Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked there?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 year and 3 months.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Orest Pena?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ruperto Pena?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Carlos Bringuier?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ [answering directly]. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have information that you saw a man whom you believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us all about that?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. These men came into the bar, two men came into the bar, one of them which I learned later through TV and pictures and newspapers was Oswald. These men came into the bar. One of them spoke Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered the tequila, so I told him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I brought him the tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price, thought it was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen, and that surely--words to the effect that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a little debate about the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I later learned was Oswald ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest told me to take a little of this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him 25 cents for the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not know the names of these men at that time, did you?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't know the names of them then; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not speak Spanish; is that right?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time of the day did this happen?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock in the morning. I am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best of my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were either of these men drunk?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around the Latin-appearing man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an American citizen. Were you referring to the man that was with Oswald, or Orest Pena, the owner of the bar?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the owner of the bar was a Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen. That's the way that was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was with Oswald?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, but he appeared to be a Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. He could have been a Mexican; he could have been a Cuban, but at this point, I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did this man look like?

Mr. LOGAN. You want a description of him?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; how old?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark hair on his arms.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he?

Mr. LOGAN. He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is about the same build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he weighed approximately?

Mr. LOGAN. He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact weight, but he would guess around the same weight as I appear to be.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he weighed about 155 pounds or so?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Just a little taller than Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what color his hair was?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He had a high forehead, you might say. He had this back here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. He had a receding hairline in the front?

Mr. LOGAN. He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding on the sides toward--at the front.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight because Oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position most of the time. Therefore, I wasn't able to get a good look, but he was a little shorter than 5 feet 8, the height of the other man. He was a little shorter than that, maybe 5 feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing up too straight at the time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald become sick?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. He became sick on the table and on the floor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then did he go in the street and continue being sick?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where he continued to be sick.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was Oswald wearing?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a short-sleeved white shirt.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie on?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this thing was hanging from one side of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a clip-on bow tie?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. It was a clip-on thing as I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did this happen; what month?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 year ago, and I presume it was in August.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Orest Pena went to Puerto Rico?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember when Orest went to Puerto Rico. I don't recall when Orest went to Puerto Rico.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went to Puerto Rico or afterward or while he was gone? Do you remember specifically? Do you remember that he did go to Puerto Rico?

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell me where he was going.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when he went on vacation? Think of it in comparison to the time that Oswald was in the bar. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on vacation.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he couldn't have been on vacation at the time?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was because at that time, I recall I had to ask Orest how to make the lemonade for Oswald, so----

Mr. LIEBELER. Now think again, and think if this was before Orest went on vacation or afterward.

Mr. LOGAN. The incident, you mean, in the bar?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before or after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested and went to jail?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I remember him being arrested, but I don't remember--I remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested, but--I was on the street and I saw Carlos. I saw Carlos Bringuier talking to the policeman at the time that he was arrested, but I didn't see him get into the police car because I took off. I left because I thought I might be following the same path.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you walking when you saw Carlos arrested?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I was in a car passing in the street when I saw Carlos talking with the police.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you in the car?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Orest Pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the Habana Bar when we saw Carlos.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Bringuier that day?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know whether Orest saw him or not. Orest was doing the driving. I am not sure whether he saw him or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald in the bar before or after you saw Carlos in the street with the policeman?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before Oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but I can't remember well enough to be exact.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it was about that time that you saw Oswald in the bar; is that right?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation to days, you know, that same period.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Do you remember whether you and Orest saw Carlos in the street before Orest went on vacation or afterward?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember whether it was before Orest went on vacation or after that I saw Carlos in the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there? That's right, is it not?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes. He was in the bar when Oswald was there.

Mr. LOGAN. He says he is trying to remember the best he can.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is doing very well.

Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest see Oswald?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. Orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest come up and talk to them when you had this argument about the lemonade and tequila?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest never talked to Oswald or the other man during this altercation about the tequila.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, Orest never came up or looked at them or saw them while they were there?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, Orest Pena never saw these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, Orest was talking on the telephone, and when I asked him about the lemonade, he just told me what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody else with Carlos and the policeman at the time you saw Carlos on the street with the policeman as you have already told us?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. At the time I saw Carlos Bringuier on the street with the police, I didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but I remember slightly that there were probably three other people in the police car at the time, but I don't know who they were, and I was passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any attention to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see Oswald there?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I didn't see Oswald at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Celso Hernandez?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, as you have told us, was Oswald?

Mr. LOGAN. I am going to have to break this down for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say so far?

Mr. LOGAN. He is answering an entirely different question, something about Bringuier.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think we should put this on the record.

Mr. LOGAN. Let me find out if he understood the question first because the thing is, I think he has got something else in mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is the problem.

Mr. LOGAN. I will get that out of him, too, the part you want.

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. LOGAN. No, no. He doesn't get the message, and I am sure I am saying it plain enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the name of this man?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first time that I knew that the man in the bar was Oswald was--the first time that I realized that the man in the bar was Oswald was after President Kennedy had been assassinated and I saw Oswald's picture in the paper with his name and so forth, and that's how I first became aware or first came to realize that the man who had been in the bar with the Latin-appearing man was the same person as Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this with Orest Pena after you became aware that the man in the bar was the same man as the man whom we think shot President Kennedy? And specifically, I want to ask you if Orest Pena recognized Oswald's picture independently from you or if he only became aware that it was Oswald that was in the bar after you called it to his attention.

Mr. LOGAN. All right. I will ask him the first one and then I will ask him the second one.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The first question is that I actually heard the news of the President's death on the radio, and they still hadn't given out the name of the assassin, who they thought it was. So later on when it came out in the newspaper, I saw the picture in the newspaper of Oswald, and then I pointed out to Orest that this was the fellow who was in the bar and had the argument about the lemonade or about the tequila, rather, and not in the bar at the time because the other fellow argued about the tequila.

Mr. LOGAN. Now what was that number two again?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest mention it to you first by himself? Did he know that that man had been in the bar, or did he only come to think that after you had pointed out to him it was the same man that you thought had bought the lemonade?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No; Orest had never seen this man whose picture was in the paper that I recognized as being the man in the bar and who the paper described as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Bringuier that the man that was in the bar with Oswald was being sought by the FBI, being looked for by the FBI?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I told Bringuier that Oswald had been in the bar. This is after, of course, I discovered that it was Oswald. But I don't remember ever telling Bringuier that the FBI was looking for these people or either one of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, you did not tell Bringuier that the FBI was looking for this man that was with Oswald?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I never told Bringuier that the FBI was looking for the man that was with Oswald. I only mentioned to Bringuier that Oswald was the same one that had been in there that had been drinking lemonade in that bar previously.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in saying that the only times that you have been in New Orleans are, one, the period of time beginning in January of 1963 to the present time, and once before at one prior time, the exact date of which I do not recall, but you tell me. Those two times. Are there any other times you have been in New Orleans? Let me rephrase the question: You came to New Orleans in January of 1963 and have been here ever since, and you were in New Orleans at least once prior to that time. Tell me when that was.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I got on a boat in Cuba. We went to Mexico. Then we went to New York with sugar. Then we went to Norfolk, and from Norfolk, we went to Bermuda, and then to the Dominican Republic.

Mr. LOGAN. Unless you want that. I just told him that whole route was not important if he could come down to the exact month he was in New Orleans. Here's the thing: He says now that the very first time he was ever in New Orleans was on a boat that came from Cuba in April of 1959. He was working on a boat that landed in New Orleans in April of 1959. Now he doesn't remember the exact month in 1961 that he was in New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever in New Orleans in 1962?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. To the best of my recollection, I was here in May of 1962 where I caught the ship Barcelona.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Orest Pena at that time?

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. LOGAN. As I get it, he knew Orest not well, but he knew him. Had seen him at the bar, around the bars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to him in May of 1962 in his bar here in New Orleans?

Mr. LOGAN. He remembers probably he talked to Orest during May of 1962. I asked him what they talked about. He said, "Like small talk about boats, about this, about that. Nothing in particular."

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar in May of 1962 with Orest Pena at any time when Orest Pena got into a fight or big argument with another man?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember Orest being in a fight with anybody in the bar in 1962, in May of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Orest Pena ever say to you in words or in substance that Castro should have been notified about something as soon as possible, and particularly, in May of 1962?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember him saying anything like that.

Mr. LOGAN. What he was telling me in all this flurry was that Orest, as far as political situations, is happy with his life here in the United States, and I have asked him three times if he remembers Orest making any statement like that, that Castro should have been notified immediately, and he says he has never heard him say anything like that. He doesn't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember any fight that Orest got into with another man?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I don't remember anything about a fight or a discussion.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you can identify anybody in that picture.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I identify Oswald as the man with the X on him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I draw your attention particularly to the man standing to Oswald's right, and the second man behind him, who appears to have leaflets in his hand, wearing a tie and short-sleeved white shirt, and facing directly into the camera.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The only one that I am able to identify in that picture is Oswald himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man that was in the bar?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The same man that was in the bar as previously mentioned.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that in your mind?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. I am positive of this.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a photograph that has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize that man.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but the first picture is a much better photograph in my mind for identifying Oswald. In other words, I was able to tell in the first photograph that the man was Oswald. In this photograph, the second photograph that I have been shown----

Mr. LIEBELER. "Garner Exhibit No. 1."

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man appears to be Oswald, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that he is clear in his mind that the man with the X in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" is the man who was in the bar and who he identifies as Lee Harvey Oswald more than he is about the man shown in Garner Exhibit No. 1.

Do you have any question that that man was in your bar, referring to the man portrayed in "Garner Exhibit No. 1?"

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. As far as this "Exhibit No. 1," a man appears to be Oswald as I recognize him from newspaper pictures of Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to "Garner Exhibit No. 1." But the man in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" looks more like the man who was in the bar?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. The man in "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" I have identified as the man who I learned later was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the man who was in the bar.

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. This appears to me that this is the man. It looks somewhat like the man that was in the bar with Oswald, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. Like the man that was in the bar with Oswald?

Mr. RODRIGUEZ. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what he said?

Mr. LOGAN. Now he says no. He says that this--how do you want to call it?

Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C."

Mr. LOGAN. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C" does not appear like the man in bar. The other man was more of a Latin-appearing man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you ever seen this man, set forth in "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," in the bar at all; at any time?

Mr. LIEBELER. What is he saying?

Mr. LOGAN. He is saying that this reminds him of Oswald because of these--the eye part here [indicating], the sagging eyes, like, you know--I don't know how you want to say that--like he has puffy eyelids.

Mr. LIEBELER. He has an area around the eyes----

Mr. LOGAN. That reminds him of Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he identify this man as Oswald?

Mr. LOGAN. He says that the man in this exhibit appears to him to be Oswald, but, of course, he says it has been a long time since he saw him and he is not ready to be positive on that. That's as close as you can come to it, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure that this was the man that was in the bar?

Mr. LOGAN. Now he says it is him.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is or isn't?

Mr. LOGAN. In his mind, "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1" which has the man with the X on him is the man who was in the bar and who he later learned was Oswald. This picture stands out in his mind the best, reminds him of the man the best; this one----

Mr. LIEBELER. "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C."

Mr. LOGAN. Appears to him to be Oswald, but he still says that the other photograph is the one that he can best identify him as the man who was in the bar. What we have got going here is the fact that this looks like Oswald, but he is--probably since the other photograph reminds him distinctly of the fact that that was the man that was in the bar, he is a little reluctant to say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA

The testimony of Orest Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Orest Pena, having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. PENA. Orest Pena.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's O-r-e-s-t P-e-n-a; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. PENA. 117 Decatur.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that your place of business or is that your residence?

Mr. PENA. No; that's my place of business. On the ground floor is my place of business. On the second floor, in the rear of the second floor I live.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney for the President's Commission. I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you last week and you are here under that subpena at this time. The rules of the Commission entitle you to have your lawyer present if you wish.

Mr. PENA. I don't think I need him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have the right under our rules not to answer any question that you don't want to answer in the first instance, specifying the reasons if you do refuse to answer any questions.

I am here under the authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that attached to the subpena are copies of the Executive order that I have referred to and rules of the Commission; is that correct?

(The witness handed document to counsel.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are attached.

Where were you born, Mr. Pena?

Mr. PENA. In Colon, Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. PENA. August 15, 1923.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you become a citizen?

Mr. PENA. I became a citizen May 5, 1956.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you became a citizen through naturalization; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The place of business that you have at 117 Decatur Street is a bar and lounge?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of it?

Mr. PENA. Habana Bar and Lounge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you have a brother by the name of Ruperto Pena?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he work with you in the bar and lounge?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I also correct in understanding that one of the bartenders is named Evaristo Rodriguez?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Bringuier connected with a clothing store located close to your bar and lounge?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet Mr. Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. When he came to the--if I am not wrong, I believe I met him when he started the store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately how long ago was it that you met Mr. Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Might be a year and a half or 2 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bringuier is active in anti-Castro Cuban affairs; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had any connection with Cuban politics?

Mr. PENA. Not with him, but with something else here in New Orleans, an organization, about 4 years ago, more or less.

Mr. LIEBELER. What organization was that?

Mr. PENA. I don't know. The FBI know very well because a person from the FBI was there all the time. I don't remember exactly the name of the organization right now, but the organization was in the Balter Building, I think, in the second floor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whatever the organization's name was, was it an anti-Castro Cuban organization?

Mr. PENA. It was in the Balter Building, the only one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the organization sometimes known as Jure, J-u-r-e?

Mr. PENA. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Junta Revolucionaria Cubana?

Mr. PENA. The chief or the boss of that organization, who was in Miami, Barrona. He was the boss of that organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. Barrona?

Mr. PENA. Yes. He was the boss of that organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave Cuba?

Mr. PENA. I left Cuba in September 1946.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been back to Cuba since that time?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when?

Mr. PENA. Oh, many times I went to Cuba. My last time I went to Cuba was about 8 months, I believe, after Castro took over, but before, I used to go very often because all my family is in Cuba, my mother, my father--before my father died, I used to go to Cuba many times. I was a seaman, too. I used to ship out with the United Fruit Co. and the Lykes Brothers Co. That's before Castro took over.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you stop working as a seaman?

Mr. PENA. Just before I went in business, in--I went in business 1958. I stop in 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. You stopped working as a seaman in 1957?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in Cuba in April or May of 1959?

Mr. PENA. I think that's the last time I was in Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Cuba at that time?

Mr. PENA. I went to Cuba--I don't know. I went to have an operation. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were in Cuba, did you have any contact with any officials in the Castro government?

Mr. PENA. No; not any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever expressed a favorable attitude toward the Castro regime?

Mr. PENA. No; I never was for--I was against Batista, but I never was even--I didn't even know Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had nothing to do with Castro?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you came back to the United States from Cuba in 1959----

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go directly back to the United States?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go anywhere else----

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Except to Cuba on that trip?

Mr. PENA. No; I came back to--I went from here to--directly from here to Havana and from Havana to New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. After your trip to Cuba in 1959, when was the next time that you were out of the United States?

Mr. PENA. It was last summer. I went on vacation to Mexico.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there?

Mr. PENA. Nine days. I plan 2 weeks, but I got sick to my stomach, so I came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that strictly a vacation trip?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had nothing to do with politics or anything like that?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have your passport here, Mr. Pena?

Mr. PENA. Yes [handing document to counsel].

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has handed me his passport, which is numbered D-0092577, and issued on June 25, 1963. It carries the name of Orest Pena and indicates a birth date of August 15, 1923, that the birthplace is Cuba, that he is 5 feet 8 inches tall, has black hair and brown eyes.

After you went to Mexico in May of 1963, when did you next leave the United States?

Mr. PENA. About 1 or 2 months after that vacation I went to Puerto Rico for 1 week and to the Dominican Republic for 1 week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us exactly when it was that you left New Orleans at that time to go to Puerto Rico?

Mr. PENA. I don't remember, but you have it there, the date I entered the Dominican Republic. I went 1 week before that by Delta Co., directly from New Orleans to San Juan, P.R., by Delta Airlines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you indicating a visa stamp on page 6 of the passport, which is difficult to read?

Mr. PENA. The 22d of August; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. August 22?

Mr. PENA. But then I got to Puerto Rico about the 14th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Fourteenth or fifteenth of August?

Mr. PENA. Fourteenth or fifteenth, something like that, of August.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you leave New Orleans?

Mr. PENA. You leave New Orleans around 12 o'clock. About 3 hours later you are in San Juan, P.R.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been August 13 or 14?

Mr. PENA. The 13th or 14th of August I left New Orleans. Then, after I got to Puerto Rico, 1 week after that I went to the Dominican Republic.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, I would like to make arrangements with the Secret Service agent who is here to make photographic copies of this passport and to mark it in connection with our deposition. Would it be agreeable with you to deliver it to him now?

Mr. PENA. Yes. You can get the exact date by Delta Airlines I went to Puerto Rico.

Mr. LIEBELER. It seems from the visa that if you went to Puerto Rico a week before you went to the Dominican Republic, the stamp here shows it would have been around the 13th or 14th of August 1963, and that's close enough.

(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

TESTIMONY OF OREST PENA RESUMED

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of your trip to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic in August?

Mr. PENA. Just a vacation.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Cuba at that time?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any contact with any representatives of the Cuban Government while you were in Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any contact with any such representatives at any time during 1963?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in May of 1964, you took a trip to Europe; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You then went to London?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Paris?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Madrid?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rome?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Munich?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Berlin?

Mr. PENA. No; I did not go to Munich.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go to Munich?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your plane land in Munich on the way to Berlin?

Mr. PENA. No. From Rome, I went to Frankfurt, Germany, and I stayed there about--I think about an hour and a half, something like that, to make connections on the next plane to Berlin, and then coming back from Berlin, fly from Berlin to Frankfurt again, from Frankfurt took Lufthansa, and directly to New York, and from New York, I wait about 3 hours and took the Eastern Airlines, a night trip, to New Orleans straight again.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the purpose of that trip?

Mr. PENA. Just a vacation.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no contact with any agents of any foreign government at any time other than the custom officials and that sort of thing?

Mr. PENA. Oh, when I went to Berlin; I went for--when I was in Berlin, I took a tour for 4 hours to East Berlin.

Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Steinmeyer and Mr. Logan. Do you remember that?

Mr. PENA. I have been interviewed by the FBI so many times I don't remember. Something. But it might be true. You tell me about what to refresh my mind, and I can tell you about whether that is true or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me come back to that in just a moment. Do you remember being interviewed by two FBI agents on June 9, 1964, when you and Mr. Tamberella went to the FBI office here in New Orleans?

Mr. PENA. That's about 2 weeks ago?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember generally what you told them at that time?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us?

Mr. PENA. What, approximately, I can remember?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us now what you told them at that time?

Mr. PENA. Well, they asked me in connection with the--Mr. Kennedy, the late President Kennedy's assassination, and also if I know anything about it. I told them I didn't know anything about it. They asked me if I saw Oswald; so I said I saw him once. He went to my place of business with one or two friends. I don't know exactly. My bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. My bartender, Evaristo Rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so I don't know exactly. It was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. They don't usually do that. That was the first time in 7 years I have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. So my bartender--he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before--he came to me and said, "The customer wants a lemonade. Do we do that?" I said, "Sure." He didn't know how to make it, so I said, "Take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." He say, "How much should I charge?" I said, "Twenty-five cents." He went back and made a lemonade and put it to Oswald. Then Oswald got mad. Said 25 cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ask for the tequila or did his friend?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I was away from there. I didn't pay any attention. They got mad about the 25 cents for the lemonade and 50 cents for the tequila, so they asked my bartender, Evaristo, why I charge so much for the drinks and I was a capitalist charging too much for the drinks. He went and came to me and told me about it. I said, "Don't worry about it. They pay you already?" "Yes." "Don't worry about it." If you are going to worry about all the customers, you are going to go crazy. Then I don't know whether he left or something, but he vomited after that; Oswald did. I don't know anything but they walked away; that's all. When the assassination happened, they put the pictures over on the television, so I saw Oswald and I said, "That's the man who came to my place one time, the man who ordered the lemonade." Evaristo came and said, "Look! That's the man that assassinated Mr. Kennedy is the one that was here one time."

Mr. LIEBELER. You told this to Rodriguez?

Mr. PENA. No; he told me. I identified to him by the television. I saw him that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You recognized Oswald yourself even before Rodriguez came to you and told you about that; is that right?

Mr. PENA. Yes. When he told me about the lemonade, I took a look at the customer; took a look and forget about it. No sense in going about there and discuss with him, and then all of that was forgotten. After the assassination, we were speaking about that man was here one time. We used to go to Bringuier's place about the incident that we got with Oswald, and Bringuier is very much interested. He called--my brother called Bringuier. We didn't pay any attention until the FBI came one time and asked me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did come and ask you about this?

Mr. PENA. Yes; so when the----

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that shortly after the assassination?

Mr. PENA. Yes. So I told him just like I tell you. Then they start coming, and over and over and over, and then I told the same thing what I knew about, and that's all I know about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever see Oswald at any other time?

Mr. PENA. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time?

Mr. PENA. The man that was with him looked Spanish; more Cuban than anything else. You are American. You might know your people. I am Cuban. I can sight them. I don't think I am being mistaken about him, about Cuban people. I can spot them when I see them that they might be a Cuban.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this man might be a Cuban?

Mr. PENA. To me, I thought he was a Cuban. I can tell that is true. I wasn't even too close to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were never too close to this man?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald clearly enough to be absolutely sure in your mind that it was Oswald in the bar?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see this Cuban-looking man that was with him at any other time or any other place?

Mr. PENA. No. See, after--that was before the assassination of Mr. Kennedy--there was an incident in my place. Two guys came. They said they were Mexican. They didn't look like Mexicans. They looked more like Cubans. They came to my place. I got a bongo with a chain. I got two bongoes for the people to play that with the music. I got a chain because I lose one of them one time. Maybe some guy was drunk. That's why I put a chain on it so they can't take it away. I was fixing the bongo on that day and they came in. They came to see me. They said, "That's what you have to have here in this country, a chain?" I was mad because one of the customers broke the bongo. I said, "What you mean by that?" When I got mad, I got a little bit--I don't know--aggressive by the way I speak. So I told them, "What you mean by that?" They said, "Well, in this country you have to put a chain?" I said, "That's so they don't take the bongo away." They said, "This is a democratic country?" I said, "Where you come from?" He said, "I come from Mexico." I said, "Don't tell me about Mexico; you take a car to Mexico, they steal the four wheels away." So right away they saw me mad, so they left, so I called the--I think I called the FBI and told them about it. I told them where they walk, which way they walked. They say, "If they come back to your place, call us again." I just forgot about it. I never saw them no more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call the FBI yourself, do you remember that?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you call the FBI about these men?

Mr. PENA. I don't like it, the way they were, the way they spoke about the country here, so--I didn't like it, so I called the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the FBI told you if they came back----

Mr. PENA. If they came back, to please call them back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who you talked to at the FBI?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. See, I used to call De Brueys. You are from Washington, huh?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. I am going to talk to you about De Brueys and the FBI agency in New Orleans, in Louisiana.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think you talked to De Brueys at this time?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. Sometimes you call there and they tell you he is not in there and you talk to somebody else if you want to give the message in the FBI, see, because De Brueys isn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, these two Mexicans that came into your bar and with whom you had the discussion about the bongo drums, were they the same men or the same man that was with Oswald when he was in the bar?

Mr. PENA. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they appear to you to have been entirely different people?

Mr. PENA. Well, I know it was not Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at the time you had the argument with the men about the bongo drums?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not either of the men who argued with you about the bongo drums had been with Oswald when he was in the bar?

Mr. PENA. See, the man was over--I can't identify him. I can't. Oswald I did because of the lemonade. I looked to him, that's all, but the other guy I can't identify. He looked like a Cuban, but I can't say that exactly. Maybe if I would see him again I would say, "Well, that's the man."

Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to say whether the two men who argued with you about the bongo drums had any connection with Oswald or had been with Oswald when he was in the bar?

Mr. PENA. I can't say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't recognize either of these two men that argued with you about the bongo drums as the men that had been with Oswald before?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen these Mexicans before they argued with you about the bongo drums?

Mr. PENA. I don't think they were Mexicans. They speak very, very different, and they looked like Cubans. They spoke something like Cubans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see them again after that time?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw them before that time, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the story that you told to the FBI after the assassination, that you had seen Oswald in the bar and Rodriguez had seen him in the bar?

Mr. PENA. More or less.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI 2 weeks ago, did they ask you about this again?

Mr. PENA. Yes; they asked me about this more than a dozen times.

Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you more than a dozen times about this?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did they come to your bar to ask you about this?

Mr. PENA. They come to my bar. They been calling me to come to the FBI office. That's why sometimes--one time I went down and got a lawyer. I don't need a lawyer about for this. I just tell you the truth. When I finish with him--you are from Washington. I tell you, Bringuier hates the United States as much as he hates Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier does?

Mr. PENA. The day Mr. Kennedy put a blockade in Cuba--you remember, about a year and a half, more or less--Mr. Carlos Bringuier was telling me--excuse me--(obscenity) in Spanish more than a dozen times, and I couldn't stand that. I have never done anything against the United States. I said, "No." Anyway, anything you want to ask me--and you can ask Mr. Bringuier is that true or not, and let him and me take a lie detector test to see who is right on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have never done anything against the interests of the United States?

Mr. PENA. No; I have not ever.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have no reason whatsoever not to believe that statement, Mr. Pena.

Mr. PENA. Okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that Mr. Bringuier hates the United States more than he does Russia?

Mr. PENA. Because he does as much.

Mr. LIEBELER. As much?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he dislike the United States? Has he ever told you?

Mr. PENA. No; but the way he talks, that the United States didn't help to overthrow Castro, and he can go over there and take over.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the basis for Mr. Bringuier's bad feeling towards the United States, that we haven't done anything to overcome the Castro regime?

Mr. PENA. Well, the way he talks to me, he hates the United States as much as he hates Russia. That's what I told you, what he said, more than a dozen times. And if that is not true, let him take a lie detector test and find out whether that is true or not true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mr. Bringuier about having seen Oswald in the bar?

Mr. PENA. Yes; we was talking about that day. You see, I did like very, very much Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did or did not?

Mr. PENA. I did. Very, very much. So I was hurt when he got killed. So when I saw the man there--I saw the man--so I went around and told most of my customers that I saw Oswald came to my place.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to the FBI on June 9, 1964, you told them, did you not, that you had never told anybody that Oswald had been in the bar?

Mr. PENA. That I never told anybody?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. That's not true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you tell that to the FBI?

Mr. PENA. I don't think that's so. That I never told anybody?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. I didn't told anybody before?

Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report before me, Mr. Pena, of an interview of you in the presence of your attorney, Mr. Tamberella, which was made by Mr. De Brueys and Mr. Wall. That was in the FBI office on June 9, and on page 2 of this particular report, which is page 14 of the larger report, it says, and I quote: "Orest Pena specifically stated he had never told anyone, including Carlos Bringuier, that Oswald had been in the Habana Bar with a Mexican prior to the assassination of President Kennedy. He also said he never heard his brother, Ruperto Pena, say that Oswald had been in the bar with a Mexican. He also stated that he had no information that the FBI was ever looking for a Mexican who had ever patronized his bar." Did you tell the FBI that?

Mr. PENA. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you did tell Bringuier that you had seen Oswald in the bar?

Mr. PENA. When we were talking after the assassination, we were talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents back in December that Oswald had been in the bar and that you had seen him?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that Rodriguez had seen him there, too?

Mr. PENA. Yes; that's the first time they interviewed me about Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. On December 5, as far as I can tell. I have only two reports.

Mr. PENA. Last year, you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. In 1963. I have a report dated December 5, 1963, of an interview with you in which you told the FBI that you had seen Oswald in the bar and then I have a report of the interview on June 9, 1964, a month ago, which says that you told them that you never told anybody that Oswald had been in the bar and, of course, that's one of the reasons why we called you in and wanted to talk to you because there is an apparent conflict between the two FBI reports that we have on that question. Now let me ask you this: You have a good deal of hostility toward the FBI, do you not?

Mr. PENA. We got to talk about something else before I tell about the FBI in New Orleans, so you let me know so I tell about the FBI, what I think about it, if I can express myself well enough to put my point of view about some of the agents of the FBI in New Orleans. Anyway, I will tell you. See if you can understand my view.

Mr. LIEBELER. Very well. Let's get to that later. Regardless of what it says in this FBI report, the fact is, you did see Oswald in the bar and you did tell Bringuier, didn't you?

Mr. PENA. We was talking about--I know we was talking about it with so many people around there, I can't tell you exactly. I know he knew because we was talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Did you actually see the man who ordered the lemonade in the bar?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when it was that you saw Oswald in the bar? Now in this connection, let me help your thinking about it by reminding you that you went to Puerto Rico on about August 13 or 14, 1963. Was it before that or after that that you saw Oswald?

Mr. PENA. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember?

Mr. PENA. No; it wasn't easy then. There was nothing in the incident. He had money to pay for it and we just forgot about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't remember whether it was before you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic or afterward?

Mr. PENA. No; I can't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother, Ruperto, ever tell you that the two men who had given you a hard time about the bongo drums had come back to the bar?

Mr. PENA. He told me something about that he saw the men passing by in a car and he called Bringuier and so Bringuier called the FBI, so they said that they called the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Ruperto in the bar when you had the argument with the fellow about the bongo drums?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you say that Ruperto saw these two men later on driving past the bar; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. I wasn't there that date. I wasn't around there that date. He saw the two men and the FBI told me if I see them coming to my place, to call them. He saw the two men sitting in a car and--I don't know exactly. He went to Bringuier and told Bringuier, so Bringuier called the FBI. That's what they said. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no personal knowledge of any of that?

Mr. PENA. No. I believe my brother told me he saw the men or something, but I didn't pay no attention about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's no connection between these two men that your brother, Ruperto, saw and the man who was in the bar with Oswald as far as you know?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Ruperto was in the bar when Oswald was there?

Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there. I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Evaristo Rodriguez there?

Mr. PENA. When Oswald was there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. He was the one who was serving Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has previously been marked as "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and I ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture.

Mr. PENA. Yes, Oswald; I recognize him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is Oswald?

Mr. PENA. Oswald is marked in some way.

Mr. LIEBELER. He has an "X" on him, is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize the place where this picture was taken?

Mr. PENA. I know about it now because I seen in the FBI. They have a place. Put it on the television. That's the International Trade Mart, I believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI put this picture on television?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly if that picture or another picture, but they got Oswald and a group--I don't know if this group--handing out propaganda to other people. I got in an argument with the FBI about that, too. I told them if they had that propaganda paper, why don't they find out the printing, where they printing that propaganda, and that would be easy to find the other people. See, I----

Mr. LIEBELER. Why, because if they found the place where the propaganda was printed, they would----

Mr. PENA. Yes. Those people might know Oswald and many other people in connection with Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you if I told you we do know who printed the handbills?

Mr. PENA. Well--you say you do know?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. Okay. I took two courses in investigation work, one from the International Detective School, and one from the Applied Sciences of Chicago. The big man there is an ex-FBI man, Mr. Dickerson Cook. So I took that course, too. After I finished, he sent me a letter. I like investigation very much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me point out to you a young man in this picture. He is the second man to Oswald's right and behind. He is standing there with some leaflets in his hand. He has a white, short-sleeved shirt on and a tie, and he appears to be handing out leaflets. Did you ever see that man before?

Mr. PENA. I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could he have been the man who was with Oswald in the bar?

Mr. PENA. I couldn't say.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize anybody else in that picture except Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which has been previously identified as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A," and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture.

Mr. PENA. I recognize Oswald there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. He has a green "X" line over his head?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anyone else in the picture?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I ask you the same question with respect to "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B."

Mr. PENA. I recognize him [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. With the green marking over his head?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And no one else?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture which has been previously identified as "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize that man.

Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him as the same man who was in the bar?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you can identify that man.

Mr. PENA. Yes; that's Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the same man who was in your bar?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was Oswald who was in your bar?

Mr. PENA. He was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was there?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in my understanding of your previous testimony that after you saw the picture of Oswald on television after the assassination, you, yourself, recognized that as the man that had been in the bar, even before Rodriguez mentioned it to you?

Mr. PENA. Well, I seen it and I came down. I was talking about it, and I recognized him right away.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even before Rodriguez spoke to you about it, or was it after Rodriguez spoke to you about it?

Mr. PENA. I was talking about it, and the man was in my place, you know. Then Rodriguez came over and said, "You remember that man who was drinking that lemonade?" Then my mind got clear. He just run from his house to my house to tell me about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen Oswald on television before Rodriguez told you about it and you thought you recognized him as having been in the place?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then Rodriguez reminded you of the lemonade and then it became clear in your mind that Oswald was the man who had ordered the lemonade and had been in your place?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez told the FBI that shortly after Oswald had been in the bar, after the lemonade incident, that he went to a doctor's office with you and this was just before you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. Do you have any recollection of that?

Mr. PENA. We went to a doctor's office?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. To be more specific, Rodriguez said that while he was riding back in the car with you, he saw Bringuier in the street with some policemen. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. PENA. Oh, yes. They got some kind of trouble. I went out. Yes. And they got some group, or two or three people was giving propaganda away, and Bringuier and one or two more guys went and started an argument with the guy who was giving the propaganda away in Canal Street. Then the police came down and they arrested him. Bringuier, and one or two more Cubans, and one more guy. I don't know the guy. I have seen him, but I don't know the guy. And they put them in jail in the first district, and they was calling Bringuier's brother-in-law. His name is--it is----

Mr. LIEBELER. Hernandez? Is that Celso Hernandez?

Mr. PENA. No. They called me up there. I say, "Well--" so I went over there and put a bond, $20, so they can come out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually went to the police station and put up bond for Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was so that Bringuier could get out?

Mr. PENA. Yes. One or two more guys.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing the incident in the street as you drove by?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you about it later on? He told you that he had seen it?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that when he was with you at that time? Did he mention it after the doctor's appointment where you had been together?

Mr. PENA. What you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Rodriguez tell you that he had seen Bringuier in the street on the way back from the doctor's appointment when he was with you?

Mr. PENA. I don't remember that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you, yourself, did not see Bringuier in the street with the policemen at that time, and later on, after Bringuier had been arrested, you went over to the police station and put the bond up for Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. His brother-in-law in the store told me about it. He say, "I can't leave the store by myself." I said, "How much would the bond be?" Then I said, "Okay, I put the bond. Then you give it back to me."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now that was shortly before you went to Puerto Rico; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the incident with regard to the bond was about the time that Oswald was in the bar and ordered the lemonade, or was it not about at that time? Do you remember?

Mr. PENA. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember one time about in May or so of 1962 that you got into a fight in your bar with some man who was standing there listening to you talk to some of your friends?

Mr. PENA. I got so many fights in my place I don't know which one it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Garcia?

Mr. PENA. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Hector José Garcia?

Mr. PENA. Hector José Garcia?

Mr. LIEBELER. We have a report that there was a man in your bar who heard you talking to two merchant seamen, and you are reported to have said: "Castro should have been notified about that as soon as possible." Do you remember saying anything about that?

Mr. PENA. That Castro should be notified about it?

Mr. LIEBELER. That Castro should have been notified about that as soon as possible.

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with Castro?

Mr. PENA. No; not ever.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that Rodriguez had worked as a merchant seaman prior to the time he went to work as a bartender, is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. About what time did he start working as a bartender?

Mr. PENA. When he came. His ship sunk and--somewhere in Costa Rica--and they was transferred to New Orleans, and the company--agency that he worked for bring him to New Orleans, bring a whole bunch to New Orleans. They know I got room up in the house on the third floor. They ask me if I got rooms, so I rent rooms to those guys, so--Evaristo, too--so in that time, I put Evaristo to work for me.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long ago was that?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. I know it's over a year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Over a year?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do have a lot of fights and difficulties in your bar, is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes. Arguments. You know, a barroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the anti-Castro organization that you worked with called the Cuban Revolutionary Council?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the name of it?

Mr. PENA. And the delegate here was Serrgio Arcacha. He was the boss of the organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember having your picture in the paper at one time----

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this, on the front page?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been some time in late December of 1960 approximately?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that when you talked to the FBI just last month, they asked you when you went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic in August of 1963, and they asked you the days?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you subsequently discuss that with your attorney, Mr. Tamberella?

Mr. PENA. Yes. Well, see, why, the reason I took Tamberella with me was because from my point of view, the FBI of New Orleans ask me about the same things so many times that somehow I was mad, so I said--about 10, 15 times they ask me the same thing over and over and over, and Tamberella is my lawyer, so I went to Tamberella and said, "Look! They look silly to me." They say the same thing so much, so I want to see if I can't stop this. If they come around asking me something else, that's okay, but for the same thing, I can't tell no more about that. He said, "Okay, I go with you."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now my reports indicate that Mr. Tamberella called the FBI office back after your interview and told the FBI that you had left for Puerto Rico on August 8, 1963.

Mr. PENA. August 8?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That you were not able to tell them the exact date at the time of the interview, but later, Mr. Tamberella told them that. That does not appear to be correct, does it?

Mr. PENA. I don't know exactly. It wasn't in the passport, the date?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the date was August 22 in the passport.

Mr. PENA. The date in the passport was the date I came out of the Dominican Republic, the 22d. I came back on my way back to New Orleans the 22d of August.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this----

Mr. PENA. Yes; might be the day I came out of the Dominican Republic. I don't know exactly. Might be the 8th because I spent 1 week--if that date, August 22, is the date I left the Dominican Republic, might be the 8th because I spent 2 weeks between the two places. Delta Airlines can give you the date of the flight to Puerto Rico exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only way that you and Mr. Tamberella were able to fix the date was by looking at the stamp on the passport; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If the visa stamp is the date that you left the Dominican Republic----

Mr. PENA. It would be 14 days before that. I went 1 week in Puerto Rico and 1 week in the Dominican Republic.

Mr. LIEBELER. If the date on the stamp was the day you went into the Dominican Republic----

Mr. PENA. It would be 7 days before.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely clear in your mind, however, that you were here in New Orleans on the day that Bringuier was arrested in connection with the propaganda demonstration on the street because you put up the bond to get him out. If I told you that that happened on August 9, 1963, that would indicate that you were here in New Orleans at that time and that you must have left some time subsequent to August 9, 1963?

Mr. PENA. I don't know. It might be another time, but the time I placed the bond for him, I was here because I was the one went up to the first precinct to give the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time Bringuier had gotten into a fight with this man over distributing propaganda leaflets?

Mr. PENA. I didn't see the fight.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he told you about it?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how this fight came about?

Mr. PENA. Some other Cuban, a friend of Bringuier's, one of the Cubans I placed the bond for, came to Bringuier's store--that's what they told me about it, what I hear--and told Bringuier, "Look, Bringuier, there is a man there giving propaganda against the Cuban Society in favor of Castro." So Bringuier came out, but the two men got away, and how they--I don't know what happened, what was the argument, but they got arrested by the policemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the time when you put up the bond to get him out?

Mr. PENA. Yes; if that's the same time. I don't know if he got in some other trouble like that a different time. I don't know. I put bond for him one time. I don't know if it was--I don't remember exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the description of the incident that you have given us about the propaganda sounds very much like the one that occurred on August 9, and the man who was handing out the literature was Oswald, and Bringuier was arrested along with two other men along with Oswald. That would seem to place you here in the United States at that time. We can always check what the procedure is on that visa stamp so we can figure out when you left the United States.

Mr. PENA. You don't need a visa to go to Puerto Rico when you are an American citizen, but the Delta Airlines, if they keep records, can give you the exact date and the hour I left New Orleans to go to San Juan, P.R., last summer. I know it was in August because in August is my birthday.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico on your birthday?

Mr. PENA. Well, I stay there on my birthday.

Mr. LIEBELER. When is your birthday?

Mr. PENA. August 15.

Mr. LIEBELER. August 16?

Mr. PENA. Fifteen.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photographic copy of a passport application dated June 24, 1963, and ask you if that is a copy of the passport application that you filled out on or about that day [handing document to witness].

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a copy of your passport application, is it?

Mr. PENA. I believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to mark that as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," and I will just write it on here if I may.

(Whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for identification as "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1.")

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this "Orest Pena Exhibit No. 1," New Orleans, July 21, 1964, and I have placed my initials on it. Would you initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the same document.

Mr. PENA. Over here [indicating]?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just put your initials on it.

(Witness complying.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now this application also has a part 2, which is required to be filled out by naturalized citizens. That is also a part of your application; is it not? [Handing document to witness.] Is that a part of your application, too, Mr. Pena?

Mr. PENA. I don't know. Might be. Something wrong here. How--went to Mexico? I don't know exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. What's the problem?

Mr. PENA. I don't know. Says here I was in Mexico. I don't know when I went to Mexico. When I got my passport, I don't remember exactly. I believe I got my passport--when I went to Mexico? How come it says here I went to Mexico?

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us you went to Mexico in May of 1963, if I am not mistaken. Is that right?

Mr. PENA. I know I went to Mexico last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this passport application, the one that we have already marked, is dated June 24, and the part, the supplement to it, or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to Mexico for 8 days in May of 1963. Now this part that we are looking at is not signed by you at any point.

Mr. PENA. You mean that's when I applied for my passport?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; you applied for your passport on June 24, 1963. That was after you came back from Mexico. You didn't need your passport to go to Mexico. I don't think you did, anyway.

Mr. PENA. Yes; I believe so. I got my citizen papers; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the information that is set forth on this second part of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to Cuba in 1959 in May and April, is correct, is it not?

Mr. PENA. Well, I don't know the exact date, but it was around there, somewhere around there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The information that you came to the United States in October of 1946 is correct, is it not? That's correct approximately?

Mr. PENA. Yes; around.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you lived at 223 West 105th Street in New York City, did you not, for a time?

Mr. PENA. Yes; I lived in that place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now on the application, the original application that we have marked as "Exhibit No. 1," which you signed, it indicates, does it not, that you were going to go to Spain and that you planned to go to Spain for a vacation trip of approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now in fact, you didn't go to Spain at that time; is that right?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you change your mind about that?

Mr. PENA. I don't know; I just changed my mind. I postponed the trip to Europe for this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on vacation?

Mr. PENA. What?

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that you did plan to go to Spain on vacation?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir. That's where I did take my passport. You also use a passport.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you fill this application out?

Mr. PENA. Right here in New Orleans at 701 Loyola Street, if I am not wrong, the new Federal building.

Mr. LIEBELER. At 701 Loyola Street, the new Federal building?

Mr. PENA. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at the passport office on the day you applied for this passport?

Mr. PENA. I don't believe he was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. He applied for a passport on the same day.

Mr. PENA. He applied for the passport on the same day?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. I don't remember seeing him there. I remember the day I applied for my passport there were a lot of people from--I don't know from where, India or Africa. You know, colored people. There were some people there. They were seamen or something, and one American girl got all of those colored people. She was helping all of them that day. A bunch of people there, colored people.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of seeing Oswald there at that time?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, you never saw Oswald at any time other than that time you saw him in your bar?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never had any conversation with you; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Not that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have any other Federal agencies besides the FBI interviewed you?

Mr. PENA. You see, before, they used to go there and say, "We are from the Federal Bureau," and would just talk to them. I didn't know what agency. I never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer told me, "Every time you talk to one of these men, get their name, where they come from." That was very, very much later. Before, they would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things about people that was for Castro. When you got a barroom, especially in Spanish like I got--most of my customers are Spanish seamen, foreign seamen--you hear the way they talk, and before, as I was against Batista--most of the people here for Castro, really for Castro--they was going to my place. So when I joined the organization against Castro in New Orleans, one of the agents of the FBI, De Brueys, started going to my place very, very often asking me about many different people, Spanish people, what I knew, what I thought. I told him what I knew; that some people was for Castro and some people was against. I told him what I saw. I never did ask him what he found out about those people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sometimes you would call the FBI and give them information, too; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Information that you picked up from conversations that took place at your bar and listening to those seamen?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I have been provided with what are supposed to be all of the FBI reports about their conversations relating to the Oswald case, and as far as I can tell, the only time the FBI has spoken to you about that was back in December 1963, shortly after the assassination, and then again in June 1964 just a short time ago; when they came to question you again at my request after I had----

Mr. PENA. Just those two times?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just twice.

Mr. PENA. I believe it's very many more times than that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think it is more times than that?

Mr. PENA. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure these were FBI men?

Mr. PENA. I don't know because, as I told you before, I didn't used to get the names until my lawyer told me, "Look! Every time you talk to one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you know who you are talking about."

Mr. LIEBELER. You wanted to tell me something about the FBI in New Orleans. Why don't you do that now.

Mr. PENA. You see, I started--like I told you, when that organization moved in New Orleans----

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the anti-Castro organization?

Mr. PENA. Yes. So I went down there and joined the organization. In 1959 when I went to Cuba, my mother told me how everything was going; so she says, "He is even worse than Batista." So when I came back, I joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here in New Orleans. So I went and joined them and started working for the organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two dollars. Then De Brueys came to the organization. Maybe--I don't know if sent by the Government or how, but he went to the organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. He joined it?

Mr. PENA. No; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the organization very, very close.

Mr. LIEBELER. They knew he was an FBI agent?

Mr. PENA. Yes; we knew he was an FBI agent. So from time to time he called me at my place. He went to my place and was asking me about this guy and that guy, different people here in New Orleans. So I told him what I thought about the men. I tell you that and then you find out if I am right or if I am wrong. I never did ask if I was right or wrong. I told him about people that I am for sure they are for Castro here in New Orleans. So one way or the other, he was interfering with me somehow, Mr. De Brueys, so----

Mr. LIEBELER. De Brueys was interfering with you?

Mr. PENA. Yes. Somehow. So one day I went to the FBI. They called me to the FBI. I don't remember exactly for what they called me. So I told De Brueys'--I told De Brueys' or somebody else that I talked to--De Brueys' boss--I didn't ask them who it was. They was FBI. They was in the FBI office--I told the agency there I don't talk to De Brueys. I don't trust him as an American.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them any reasons why you didn't?

Mr. PENA. Because he was interfering very close with the organization against Castro. So since that day--we got in a little bit of argument there. We was talking about somebody. The FBI asked me about a man that had been in the group before, about somebody--if I knew somebody--if I knew his way for signing. So I asked De Brueys, "Did I told you about this man?" He said, "No." I got mad. I said, "If you said I didn't told you about that man, I don't trust you as an American, to be for an American." So 2 days later he went to my place of business. He said to me at the table, "I want to talk to you." I said, "Okay, let's go." He said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get me in big trouble. He said, "I am an FBI man. I can get you in big trouble." But he made a mistake. I had a girl that was with me that was here when he was discussing me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Somebody else was there and heard it?

Mr. PENA. Yes. He was discussing me not to talk about it. He was an FBI man and he could get me in big trouble. So I talked to my girl friend and said, "Look, I better pull out of this thing. What the FBI wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from those things, politics," so I pull away, and I never did heard from the FBI any more until Mr. Kennedy got assassinated. They left me alone completely. They never asked me after I pulled out of the organization. After that, I never listened to anybody talking about politics in the place. I tried to keep out of it the most I could. They never did call me any more until Oswald got--and then they started coming here talking to me because we was talking about the incident.

Mr. LIEBELER. So your complaints about the FBI here in New Orleans relate basically to the anti-Castro proposition and not to the investigation of the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. No, no. That was way before.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any criticism of the FBI as far as the investigation of the Kennedy assassination was concerned except that you just don't like to talk to the FBI any more; is that right?

Mr. PENA. You mean after the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. PENA. After the assassination, they came and asked me so many times about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. They came over so many times, I said, I better do something about it. I called my lawyer and said, "Look! I don't know anything else about this. I want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what I know about it and I don't want no more part of that." The thing--I got in an argument with one of the men there, the same thing I told you about the printing and the propaganda. I told him how I feel about that. I don't know whether I was right or wrong. He told me that the United States is a big country and it was hard to find. I told him, "I don't agree with you." I told him that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who?

Mr. PENA. I talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they was printing that propaganda, and I said, "Why can't you find that place?" He said, "Because the United States is a big country." I said, "It doesn't matter. Each printing has their own type or letter that can be found somehow."

Mr. LIEBELER. So you told this FBI agent that they should find where the propaganda literature had been printed?

Mr. PENA. The propaganda that Oswald was giving away. They put that on television about 4 or 5 days after the assassination--Oswald giving that propaganda. They knew that Oswald was giving that propaganda away before Mr. Kennedy was killed. They got all of that propaganda and all of that film taken of Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think they should find where those leaflets were printed? This is what you told them?

Mr. PENA. The little bit I know about the investigation, they even--let me see how to say it. Let me see--they even keep Oswald from killing Mr. Kennedy. From my point of view as an investigator, if they went all the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can put Oswald in jail. Maybe the President not be killed. That was before Mr. Kennedy was killed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this: Do you have any evidence or do you know of any evidence that would link Oswald to anybody else in a conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information or knowledge that Oswald was involved with pro-Castro people in connection with the assassination?

Mr. PENA. No; I can't tell you that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that this was a pro-Castro or a Castro plot to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether anybody else in New Orleans has any information like that?

Mr. PENA. No; I can't say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. What I think about Bringuier? He is just trying to get big name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to Cuba. Be one of the bosses. That's my point of view. I told you he don't like the United States and what I told you about; you can bring him here and tell him that Orest Pena told you that. I will stand a lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and I invite De Brueys, too, to ask De Brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place and tried to intimidate me. If he say no, I take a lie-detector test and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one Communist in the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Bringuier is using his association with Oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that?

Mr. PENA. That's what it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, Bringuier doesn't have any evidence that there was a pro-Castro plot to assassinate the President.

Mr. PENA. No; I don't know. See, Bringuier know Oswald very well. He told me one time--I don't know if that is true or not--he said that Oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. I believe he still have the book. And Bringuier has his own organization here. They call it----

Mr. LIEBELER. DRE?

Mr. PENA. Cuban something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the DRE?

Mr. PENA. Yes; something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Cuban Students Directory?

Mr. PENA. He said Oswald came to infiltrate in his organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that Oswald came to his store?

Mr. PENA. Yes. That's what he told me. Before, I used to talk to him, go there or he came to my place.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Bringuier are not too good friends any more; is that right?

Mr. PENA. We was quite close until--when they started the blockade in Cuba, the way he spoke about President Kennedy. And I pulled a little bit out. I even used to give him sometimes more than $2. I don't know. He collected to send to Miami, if he don't send it somewhere else. That's what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us at this time, Mr. Pena, that I haven't asked you about that you think we should know about?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't think of anything?

Mr. PENA. I tell you, Bringuier don't do many things that he will tell you. He don't like America. Time will tell. He is one of the guys that--do you remember when they were saying, "Yankee, go home," in Cuba? He was in Cuba at that time. He was calling, "Yankee, go home."

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he ever favored Castro that you know of?

Mr. PENA. Oh, of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who, Bringuier?

Mr. PENA. Yes. He said not?

Mr. LIEBELER. I am asking you did he ever favor Castro.

Mr. PENA. I was in Cuba. I left Cuba very long time ago. I never was involved in any kind of politics. I didn't like Batista, but I wasn't in any organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know of any.

Mr. PENA. What I know about people, what I hear in my place, or what I hear other people talking, and what I hear about Bringuier was, when Castro started with his revolution of Cuba, he was one of the Cubans in the revolution calling, "Yankee, go home."

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think that Bringuier is in favor of Castro at this time?

Mr. PENA. He? No, no. He hate Castro and he hate Russia, but he hates America as much, too. He just want to go back to Cuba and be one of the bosses.

Mr. LIEBELER. Be a big man?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, Mr. Pena. I want to thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. PENA. I want you to know something: I love the United States more than many people that are born in this country and I got a place of business and I hear--they don't talk much now. They are very scared, but before, when Castro was started, I learn many people, how much they was against this country, people that was born in this country. I love this country, believe me. Maybe you don't believe me or have a bad report about me, but nobody make me a Communist. Believe that. Believe it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF RUPERTO PENA

The testimony of Ruperto Pena was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Ruperto Pena, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. First, let the record show that this testimony is being taken through an interpreter in the person of Special Agent Richard E. Logan of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Pena, I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony pursuant to certain regulations and orders that President Johnson has issued, including Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

You are entitled to have an attorney. You do not have to answer the questions if you have any objections to them, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing.

Mr. LOGAN. I have already explained to him that you are an attorney and about the Commission and authorization. Now I will just tell him about these rights that he has.

(Discussion between witness and interpreter).

Mr. LOGAN. He says as long as he can answer them, that he will.

Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that he will be willing to proceed without an attorney?

Mr. LOGAN. No; he doesn't care.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Pena?

Mr. PENA. Mantanza--that's the province--Colón--that's the city--Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. PENA. March 5, 1927.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are still a citizen of Cuba?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?

Mr. PENA. With my brother at the--I help my brother run the bar, the Habana Bar, 117 Decatur Street. The Habana Bar it is called.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos Bringuier?

Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are the brother of Orest Pena; is that correct?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Evaristo Rodriguez?

Mr. PENA (answering directly). Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your brother an incident in the bar where a man ordered a lemonade?

Mr. PENA. I didn't talk with my brother about it. I have discussed it with the bartender.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rodriguez?

Mr. LOGAN. Because his brother, apparently--he wasn't there when the incident happened either. He didn't discuss it with his brother and the bartender. Apparently, he just heard it through talk in the bar about the thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not there at the time this happened?

Mr. PENA. No; I wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture which has been marked "Garner Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you recognize that man.

Mr. PENA. I know him from the newspapers, but I have never seen him in person.

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. LOGAN. He knows. Just can't get it out right now. He doesn't remember his name. He knows his face because he has seen it in a lot of photographs and pictures in the newspaper. Never saw him in person, but he knows the photograph of the man from pictures on TV and newspapers.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you know him as the man who assassinated President Kennedy?

Mr. PENA. Yes; I do. I don't right at this second remember his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Mr. PENA. Oswald is the man.

Mr. LIEBELER (handing picture to witness). I show you a picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you have ever seen any of the men in this picture, specifically that man who is handing out leaflets slightly to Oswald's right, the man I point to with my pencil, and, for the purposes of the record, it is the man who stands behind Oswald to his right, and he is the second man from Oswald. He wears a short-sleeved shirt with a tie.

Mr. PENA. I don't know anybody in there. I don't recognize anybody in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell Carlos Bringuier that you had seen Oswald anywhere?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you in the bar, the Habana Bar, at the time when your brother got into an argument with two Mexicans or Cubans about the bongo drums?

Mr. PENA. It was me that had the argument with them. I had an argument with a couple of them over there over the problem of Cuba, but I was not there when the incident that your question specifically asked about took place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did have an argument with two Mexicans about Cuba; is that right?

Mr. PENA. The problems of Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you call the FBI?

Mr. PENA. Bringuier did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bringuier called the FBI?

Mr. PENA. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see these men?

Mr. PENA. The first time I saw them was in the bar, the two of them. It was in the evening we were having this discussion over the problems of Cuba. The second time was 2 or 3 days later--I am not positive about that--when I saw them pass the bar in a little car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI?

Mr. PENA. Yes. What I did was, when I saw them passing in the car--these two men that I mentioned, passing in a car--I went out and took the license number and I gave this to Bringuier, Carlos Bringuier, and I asked Bringuier to call the FBI because I wasn't able to speak English well enough, and that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you, yourself, ever called the FBI or any other Government agency about these two men before you told Bringuier to call them?

Mr. PENA. I didn't call anybody before I told Bringuier to call them, the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?

Mr. PENA. I am sure. I gave Bringuier the number and told him to call the FBI because I couldn't speak English well enough.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you remember discussing this question with Mr. Logan back in May, and Mr. Logan asked you this question at that time, and don't you remember that you told Mr. Logan that you had called the FBI or the Immigration and Naturalization Service?

Mr. PENA. No; I didn't, but at that time, I just have said that I called one because it mentions there about the telephone. I just can't remember it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask Bringuier to call the FBI, when you saw these men in the car?

Mr. PENA. The night that I had the discussion with these two men, I got the impression that they were pro-Castro and probably Communists, so that's why, when I saw them go by in the car a couple of days later, I asked Bringuier to call the FBI to denounce them, to turn them in or denounce them, or to let them know that they were about.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why didn't you call the FBI when you talked to them the first time?

Mr. PENA. The first reason I did not call the FBI the first time was because this discussion took place at night and that, as soon as the discussion was terminated, these two men left, and so it just sort of ended right there. Then, when I saw them again, I got Bringuier to try to call them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you that he did call the FBI?

Mr. PENA. He called the FBI right in front of me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when Bringuier called the FBI?

Mr. PENA. Yes. I was right there when he was supposed to have called them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did Bringuier call them from?

Mr. PENA. Called them from Bringuier's store. That's the Casa Rocca. That's right down the street from me. It's 107 Decatur. It's the Casa Rocca. It's a store. That's where the call was made from.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier tell you who he talked to at the FBI?

Mr. PENA. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did these two men have anything to do with Oswald, as far as you know?

Mr. PENA. As far as I know, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen them again after you saw them in the car?

Mr. PENA. No; never saw them since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been in favor of Fidel Castro in the early times?

Mr. PENA. I have never been friendly toward Castro. I am more or less pro-Batista.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to where these two men could be found now?

Mr. PENA. No; I don't have any information. I am under the impression that one was a Cuban and one was a Mexican because of their method of speaking Spanish, which varies from each Spanish country, like a Cuban speaking can recognize a Mexican by his language rather than his appearance.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the answer to the question?

Mr. PENA. The answer to the question is that I do not have any information as to where these two men can be found now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Bringuier the license number of the automobile?

Mr. PENA. Yes; I gave it to Bringuier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bringuier give it to the FBI?

Mr. PENA. Bringuier gave it to them, the FBI, over the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure that you were present when Bringuier talked to the FBI?

Mr. PENA. The thing is, I was there when Bringuier made a call supposedly to the FBI, but I can't say and won't say that I know Bringuier was talking to the FBI. Actually, as a matter of fact, he could have been talking to just anybody. That's what he just said.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had that problem because of your difficulty understanding the English language?

Mr. PENA. The idea is that I was there when the call was made, but I don't know. As far as I am concerned, Bringuier was talking to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. It says here in this report that you weren't even there.

(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)

Mr. LOGAN. He is telling me now about all the people that are exiles that are in Cuba. They hollered, "Yankee, no." But that's not pertinent. You want me to ask him again about his being present and see if we can make him remember?

Mr. LIEBELER. Why does he mention this thing about Cuba? He is not one of them?

Mr. LOGAN. I dare say it is part of his nature. He is telling me that we have to be careful of all of these people, which we already know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Pena, did you tell Mr. Logan and Agent De Brueys that you were not present when Carlos called the FBI?

Mr. PENA. I don't know that I remember telling you that, but I say now that I was present when that call was made.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now Mr. Bringuier said that you told him that one of the two Mexicans had been in the bar with Oswald. Is that correct?

Mr. PENA. I never told Bringuier that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't have told Bringuier that because you weren't even in the bar when Oswald was there and you never saw the man who was with Oswald?

Mr. PENA. That's right. I wasn't in the bar when----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge that Oswald was connected in any way with any conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mr. PENA. I have no information that Oswald was ever connected with any organization or conspiracy to assassinate the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that you would like to tell us about this whole affair?

Mr. PENA. I have no further information outside of what I have already said regarding the two Mexicans.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO

The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish one. You are also entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege you may have. I think the Secret Service did call you, or Martha Joe Stroud, here in the U.S. attorney's office, called you and gave you notice.

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you wish to have an attorney present?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to ask you some questions about the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mrs. ODIO. Before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's which he wrote me from prison. You can have it. It was very funny, because at the time he wrote it, the FBI incident happened a week later. I told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in December telling me that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he didn't know those people. At the time I did give the names of one or two, and he wrote back, "I actually don't know who they are."

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to this during the course of the questioning, but I am glad you brought it up. I do want to get to it, because it may help us determine who these people were.

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, would you tell us where you were born?

Mrs. ODIO. In Havana, Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when?

Mrs. ODIO. 1937.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Cuba?

Mrs. ODIO. Until, well, I studied in the United States, so I mean--you mean my whole life until--it was 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1960?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left Cuba and came to the United States, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you come to in the United States?

Mrs. ODIO. We first came to Miami, and we stayed there just a few days and left for Ponce, Puerto Rico, and we stayed there 2 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then from Ponce, did you come to Dallas?

Mrs. ODIO. From Ponce, I came straight to Dallas last year, March of last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you have been in Dallas since March of 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had gone to school in the United States. Where?

Mrs. ODIO. Eden Hall Convent of The Sacred Heart, in Philadelphia.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to school there?

Mrs. ODIO. Three years.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what, high school?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. From 1951 to 1954.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that period of 3 years the only time you were in the United States prior to the time that you came to Dallas in March of 1963? The only time in the United States over any extended period of time?

Mrs. ODIO. Excuse me, when I got married in 1957, I stayed 8 months--9 months in New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you lived in the United States for 9 months in 1956?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had been in Philadelphia for 3 years from 1954 on, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. No; from 1951 to 1954, when I graduated.

Mr. LIEBELER. And for the period in New Orleans and when you came to the United States finally?

Mrs. ODIO. In 1960, December 25, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. So after you came in December of 1960, you went to Puerto Rico and lived in Puerto Rico for 2 years, and you came to Dallas in 1963 and you have been here ever since?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mrs. Odio?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had grammar school in Cuba. I started high school in Cuba and then I was sent to the Sacred Heart and I applied for college, and went back and studied law in the University of Villanova. I did not finish because my career was interrupted because of Castro, and I didn't finish law.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much training did you have in law?

Mrs. ODIO. I had almost 3 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of law study in Cuba?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. My record indicates that on December 18, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr. James P. Hosty and Bardwell D. Odum. Do you remember that?

Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them?

Mrs. ODIO. I think I remember. Not exactly, but I think I can recall the conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall it?

Mrs. ODIO. They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico?

Mrs. ODIO. Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba.

So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.

Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could.

Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knew that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because of what now?

Mrs. ODIO. Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some American friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me.

It either was a Thursday or a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.

Like I said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know.

So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We are members of JURE."

This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.

And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?

Mrs. ODIO. The American had not said a word yet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of the Cubans?

Mrs. ODIO. The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking?

Mrs. ODIO. He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?

Mrs. ODIO. I had a chain.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the chain fastened?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American.

He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorry to say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.

I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't remember it?

Mrs. ODIO. No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?

Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?

Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?

Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?

Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?

Mrs. ODIO. No tie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?

Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.

This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.

This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, "Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?"

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name?

Mrs. ODIO. His name is Antonio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez Alvareda?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?

Mrs. ODIO. He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December, I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, working hard.

And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I said, "Do you know Eugenio?" This is the war name for ----. That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who did you ask this?

Mrs. ODIO. I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, because I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?"

And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never been to Cuba."

And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes."

This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, "I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me."

And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which one of the men was driving?

Mrs. ODIO. The tall one, Leopoldo.

Mr. LIEBELER. Leopoldo?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.

They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they did not indicate where they were going?

Mrs. ODIO. The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything."

And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated after the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.

And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. ODIO. He never mentioned his last name. He always referred to the American or Leon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his last name the night before?

Mrs. ODIO. Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon?

Mrs. ODIO. On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or an American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?

Mrs. ODIO. At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.

I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose.

My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."

Mr. LIEBELER. You have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he?

Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I gave the names of the Cubans.

Mr. LIEBELER. The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. ODIO. He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone there in Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends."

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.

Mrs. ODIO. Yes, okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read that translation to us?

Mrs. ODIO. "Please tell me again who it is that calls himself my friend. Be careful. I do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not even in Dallas. So do not establish any friendships until you give me their full names again."

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he say their "full names" in there?

Mrs. ODIO. Their full names again, which means I had given their war names.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you must have given the name Leopold?

Mrs. ODIO. He says, "You are very alone with no man to protect you, and you can be easily fooled." That is more or less what he says. We are 10 brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both of them.

I have little brothers in Dallas in an orphanage. We have been, were a very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after I divorced. He is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my door. He also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or something like that. You can probably have somebody who knows Spanish do a better translation.

Mr. LIEBELER. This letter is dated December 25, 1963, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that?

Mrs. ODIO. The capital of Isle of Pines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is a prisoner there?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and forth?

Mrs. ODIO. One letter a month, on one side.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men?

Mrs. ODIO. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it, like he does. You can see how perfectly he writes a letter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these men came in late September. You previously stated that you couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late September. Would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that date in your mind?

Mrs. ODIO. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or Friday, depending on when I called her.

I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted her to start packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you did move?

Mrs. ODIO. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived before you moved to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. ODIO. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number--1024 Magellan Circle. It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the number; I think it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments at the time these men came to your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans.

Mr. LIEBELER. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of October and moved to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your apartment before the first of October?

Mrs. ODIO. Before the first of October.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been sometime toward the end of September, because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff?

Mrs. ODIO. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping me. She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie?

Mrs. ODIO. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood Apartments?

Mrs. ODIO. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and you lose it if you move before 6 months.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months?

Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.

That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.

I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called Eugenio long distance from Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back from Puerto Rico?

Mrs. ODIO. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny Martin.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and I called two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda--Rodriguez Alvareda.

So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to be interviewed by some high official.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he was going to come by Dallas first?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, to get my children, which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas. And this is when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood Apartments.

Mr. LIEBELER. You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico with your children?

Mrs. ODIO. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, because I know when I moved, and then it was in August--let's see, I lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before you went to Puerto Rico?

Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that to meet you?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you met with Eugenio here in Dallas?

Mrs. ODIO. Once.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in June of 1963?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men came to your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had come to the apartment with Leon?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Father McKann?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he did call me on the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. On April 30, 1964?

Mrs. ODIO. The date, I don't recall. Probably.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was approximately the end of April or early May of 1964 when he called you from New Orleans?

Mrs. ODIO. From New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him at that time?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him?

Mrs. ODIO. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that could be important to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work that day, isn't that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane. I don't know if it belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men--did you tell him the names of the men who were there?

Mrs. ODIO. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told him one was Leopoldo?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not tell him that you could identify the other man as Eugenio?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell him that?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now that that is not so?

Mrs. ODIO. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was not Eugenio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to you in June?

Mrs. ODIO. I think I discussed it with him, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that telephone conversation?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think I discussed it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?

Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is also what you told Agent Hosty when he interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his report?

Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day, that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was considered to be loco?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I could get men into Cuba. That is what he thought, which is not true.

When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of loco."

When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President Kennedy--and this I recall in my conversation--he was trying to play it safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was cleverly done.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he actually played both sides of the fence?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right, both sides of the fence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed Forces?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?

Mrs. ODIO. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that Leon could help in the underground activities in which you were presumably engaged?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since it happened?

Mrs. ODIO. No, I have not even contacted him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Annie in Dallas now?

Mrs. ODIO. She is coming now the end of July.

Mr. LIEBELER. She is not here now?

Mrs. ODIO. No, she is coming from Florida. She is coming to live with me. She spent 6 months with my brother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what her address is in Florida?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. She is in--wait 1 second--Southwest 82d Place, Miami, Fla.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old were these two men that were with Leon?

Mrs. ODIO. One of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, I can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one was that?

Mrs. ODIO. But the other one was young. That was the tall one.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was not Leopoldo?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Alentado was younger?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old was he, would you say?

Mrs. ODIO. About 34, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an opinion about that when you saw him at the time?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I would say he was a young man; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him that day in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What age would you establish you thought about it?

Mrs. ODIO. Oh, 34 or 35.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since the assassination and observed Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. I read some of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read how old he was?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't even know what age he is.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how tall was he?

Mrs. ODIO. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

Mrs. ODIO. I am 5 feet 6 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was about 5 feet 10?

Mrs. ODIO. Probably.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man?

Mrs. ODIO. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on him, like it was borrowed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Like it was borrowed from somebody else?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of hung loose.

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't fit well?

Mrs. ODIO. It didn't fit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement here in Dallas?

Mrs. ODIO. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any representatives of the DRE?

Mrs. ODIO. I just knew one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?

Mrs. ODIO. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, you mean?

Mrs. ODIO. Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Carlos?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?

Mrs. ODIO. I think it was a long time ago in Cuba, or I was introduced to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met him here in the United States?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between Bringuier and Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a judge. This was true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read about that in the newspapers?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information we heard from New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much of your family are living in New Orleans?

Mrs. ODIO. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them told you about this?

Mrs. ODIO. I think it was my uncle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at that time?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In New Orleans?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your uncle's name?

Mrs. ODIO. Agustin Guitar.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this that you discussed this with him?

Mrs. ODIO. February.

Mr. LIEBELER. In February of 1964?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an operation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Emanuel Salvat?

Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I don't know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, Salvat?

Mrs. ODIO. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to some organization.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which one?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be the DRE?

Mrs. ODIO. I can't say for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera?

Mrs. ODIO. I have heard about her, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. They were coming from New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cubans in Dallas. Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will give you information enough. They will tell you where they live and what their phone number is and how to contact them.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came by your address?

Mrs. ODIO. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about?

Mrs. ODIO. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am trying real hard to remember everything I can.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this whole affair?

Mrs. ODIO. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is real facts of the thing, that really happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. The only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him other times?

Mrs. ODIO. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea who called the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. About what?

Mrs. ODIO. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

Mrs. ODIO. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was important.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think called the FBI?

Mrs. ODIO. Mrs. Connell, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. You know how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to see me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how they came to see you?

Mrs. ODIO. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to mention anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone number.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gave that to the FBI?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that because you asked these men if they had been sent by Alentado and they said no?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know her?

Mrs. ODIO. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister was would improve me, which it did, of course.

And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mrs. ODIO. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to come here to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruch. I was here 4 months before I went to get my children. We were close, like I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you think she called the FBI about this?

Mrs. ODIO. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I was the only person--she was the only person I told.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, "I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was him that called the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to whom he had spoken?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure you never told her that?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings?

Mrs. ODIO. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas, and she went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. A different one?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?

Mrs. ODIO. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a Prisoner in Castro Cuba," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. About this?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the FBI was?

Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He always told me the truth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have hallucinations and you had probably not made this up?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Other people make it up, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question with some representatives of the President's Commission?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what that conversation was about?

Mrs. ODIO. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still seeing Dr. Einspruch?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I am through with therapy. He left.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is no longer in Dallas?

Mrs. ODIO. No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald in more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before except the day he came to the door.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen him since?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I would pass out for hours, and this was part of my emotional problems. I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I cannot deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?

Mrs. ODIO. Can I say something off the record?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

(Witness talks off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought of that before you had the fainting spell?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive things very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of thinking?

Mrs. ODIO. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out?

Mrs. ODIO. No, sir. It was only the connection.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had made the connection in your mind between these three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name prior to the time of your passing out?

Mrs. ODIO. No; I don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did not know any name until that night.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you pass out?

Mrs. ODIO. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before 1 o'clock, because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out back in the warehouse.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just after you left the office?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right after?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did these men indicate that they had all come from New Orleans together?

Mrs. ODIO. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but they had been in New Orleans, or had just come from New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their pictures, do you think?

Mrs. ODIO. I think I could recognize one of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think they definitely look like Cubans?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?

Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?

Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize this man's voice?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?

Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the X?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I specifically call your attention to the man standing to Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets.

Mrs. ODIO. Does he have some glasses on?

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that I just described?

Mrs. ODIO. Does he have any glasses?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me see the picture.

Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build that that man has in the back.

Mr. LIEBELER. He has the same build?

Mrs. ODIO. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing to this man here?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some way?

Mrs. ODIO. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick hair.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are describing Leopoldo?

Mrs. ODIO. He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Like sort of a bald spot in his front?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like one of the men that was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. That height and that tall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand.

Mrs. ODIO. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the back looks something like this man I am telling you about.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in the picture other than Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. No; that's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with Oswald in the apartment.

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say?

Mrs. ODIO. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are referring----

Mrs. ODIO. I am referring to this man now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back is toward the camera?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the man immediately behind Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. No; he was taller than that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind Oswald in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in Bringuier Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. ODIO. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives him a slimmer look.

Mr. LIEBELER. You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white shirt?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; he came with a white shirt.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1, but it appears that that is not so?

Mrs. ODIO. No; this man is this man in the picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B?

Mrs. ODIO. Exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizza's Exhibit No. 453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the man who was in the apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not look like the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark 3 in both pictures; is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his hand on his face.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar?

Mrs. ODIO. Somewhat familiar; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mrs. ODIO. Who is this man?

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you?

Mrs. ODIO. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the color of that short man. He did not look real white.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental?

Mrs. ODIO. Is an oriental?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know. Does it look like it to you?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They all seem to be the same man, don't they?

Mrs. ODIO. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mrs. ODIO. Didn't wear them all the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in Exhibit No. 453-A?

Mrs. ODIO. [Pointing.]

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he looked that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B was the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize that man.

Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?

Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that looks like the man who was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved thing that got me that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man in that picture appear to be somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because when somebody reads the record--you say that he----

Mrs. ODIO. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who was in your apartment.

I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But I would like to have you--and I have another witness waiting for me, and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the Secret Service and find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and I will tell you what time to come back.

Mrs. ODIO. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back any special time?

Mr. LIEBELER. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels.

Mrs. ODIO. Before I leave?

Mr. LIEBELER. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of September; is that correct? Or can you remember? Is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak Cliff?

Mrs. ODIO. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous weekend.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the last day of September was Monday.

Mrs. ODIO. That is probably the day I moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say that you also started working at a new job that same day?

Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had been working on the day that you did move?

Mrs. ODIO. I started working initially the 15th of September, because it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let me see what day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started working at National Chemsearch.

(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation entered the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. Odum was the man that interviewed you.

Mrs. ODIO. I remember. He looked very familiar.

Mr. ODUM. What is the name?

Mrs. ODIO. Odio.

Mr. ODUM. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment.

(Agent Odum left the hearing room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also testified, according to my recollection, that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that correct?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you work on Saturday?

Mrs. ODIO. No; but he could have called me Saturday. But they would have come Thursday or Friday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thursday or Friday?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had been at work on the day they came?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't recall that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't recall that?

Mrs. ODIO. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man.

Mrs. ODIO. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest?

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky?

Mrs. ODIO. He was not as big as this man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back spot on his head?

Mrs. ODIO. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice that.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as Leopoldo?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?

Mrs. ODIO. He was thin--about 165 pounds.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall was he, about?

Mrs. ODIO. He was about 3-1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. Shorter than Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how much, could you guess?

Mrs. ODIO. Five feet seven, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He weighed about how much, would you say?

Mrs. ODIO. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.

Mrs. LIEBELER. Was it pock marked, would you say?

Mrs. ODIO. No; it was like--it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight.

TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO RESUMED

The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 6:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, at the office of the Secret Service, 505 North Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Forrest Sorrels and John Joe Howlett, special agents of the U.S. Secret Service were present.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the continued deposition of Mrs. Sylvia Odio, which is now being continued in the office of the Secret Service. We have made arrangements in the presence of Agent Forrest Sorrels and Agent Howlett, to show some movie films of some street scenes in the city of New Orleans, and also a television appearance that Lee Harvey Oswald made over station WDSU in New Orleans in August of 1963. I want to ask Mrs. Odio to watch the film, and if you recognize anybody in the film at any time say so as you see him and point the individual out and we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at that time. Please go ahead, John.

Mrs. ODIO [viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I have seen him, the tall thin one. I would like to see the beginning where the man started coming in.

(Film was rerun.)

Mrs. ODIO. You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't have a mustache, though.

Mr. LIEBELER. That third man there?

Mrs. ODIO. I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar.

Mr. LIEBELER. That one right over there?

Mrs. ODIO. Right; he has the same build.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, Sylvia. Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the same mustache here.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the television appearance?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about in the pictures that you saw in the police station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in his voice?

Mrs. ODIO. No. I don't know if it was because in the television it changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is hard to remember a voice after such a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late in September was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. I have to be careful about that, because I have the same feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too much. I wish I could isolate the incident without remembering the other pictures. I have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not resemble him. It was not the Oswald that was standing in front of my door. He was kind of tired looking. He had a little smile, but he was sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run the picture once more, John?

Mrs. ODIO. What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this picture. But the men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like Cubans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now we have here two pictures that have been made from films of this movie.

Mrs. ODIO. In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man marked with the number 2?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same man you have been talking about as looking similar?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and I was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could have been the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald?

Mrs. ODIO. I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment does not have any mustache.

Mr. LIEBELER. But otherwise, you think that he looks similar?

Mrs. ODIO. They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled back on one side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to run through it again, please?

(Film was rerun.)

Mrs. ODIO. The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was not so cut that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have referred to the individual that was walking out of the police station?

Mrs. ODIO. With his back.

Mr. LIEBELER. He had a mustache, and he had glasses on?

Mrs. ODIO. That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, and he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald--Leon is fatter in this picture than what I actually saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the police station?

Mrs. ODIO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is a different man?

Mrs. ODIO. That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind of thin-looking individual, is darker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the man that was walking out of the police station?

Mrs. ODIO. You want me to point it out?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the record there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a different man than is in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B.

Mrs. ODIO. He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at film].

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the door?

Mrs. ODIO. That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with mustache leaving police station with Carlos Bringuier and others depicted on film].

Mrs. ODIO. There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that that man we have just seen in the picture resembles one of the men that was in your apartment?

Mrs. ODIO. From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it is clearly not the same individual?

Mrs. ODIO. No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something, to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as indicated above.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the point.

In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards the relations between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations between Lee and Marina at that time.

As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee. As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's my impression.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on Monday?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day?

Mrs. PAINE. On that particular Monday--only once, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Only one time?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday, what the conversation was about?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?

Mrs. PAINE. She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the conversation?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was not right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the first time I felt 22 fires?"

Mrs. PAINE. "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two fires? This is a common expression in Russian; it's like between the Devil and the deep blue sea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Between two fires, you mean?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that.

Mrs. PAINE. That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no--this is not it. This should be, "This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say, is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea."

Mr. LIEBELER. I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your previous testimony.

Mrs. PAINE. It occurs twice there, I see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument was about--what the situation was?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he should or could do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why he was using the alias?

Mrs. PAINE. She did not tell me anything about why.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job tenure unsure.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right; so that my impression is supported to that extent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she did?

Mrs. PAINE. She said she had already discussed it and she judged that they would not be talking about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the first week, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for using this alias?

Mrs. PAINE. It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation she had with Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this?

Mrs. PAINE. We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his arrival.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get to that, what was your impression of the relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior to the evening of Thursday, November 21?

Mrs. PAINE. They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger--I don't know about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21, "Was there a coolness between them?"

Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we----

Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between Lee and Marina."

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."

You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's response to all this, the best you can recall?

Mrs. PAINE. You recall that he was there when I arrived from the grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment that he hadn't called and asked if he could come.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't that correct?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that he had come home specifically to make up the argument?

Mrs. PAINE. That it was at least conciliatory.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the ordinary?

Mrs. PAINE. No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made no apology, just from my judgment of the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. At least, you didn't hear him make any apology?

Mrs. PAINE. I certainly didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?

Mrs. PAINE. She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the reestablishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I have since heard this by rumor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was that night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation between you and Marina to the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until Christmas time?

Mrs. PAINE. Oh, absolutely not.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was no indication that his pattern of coming on weekends was to change in any manner?

Mrs. PAINE. No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina gave.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of volume 1 of the hearings.

Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on Thursday?

This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?

Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him and he was very upset.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the children on the street.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?

Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.

Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him.

On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and I didn't need him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet together and this was better, because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, that it would be better if he bought something for himself, that I would manage.

Mrs. PAINE. I want to point out that she referred to his playing with the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors or on the street.

When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes. I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior to then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you came home?

Mrs. PAINE. Prior to the time I arrived--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two or three sentences more.

Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really asleep, but I didn't talk to him.

I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would it suggest that to you?

Mrs. PAINE. It would suggest that to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. At least that their relations would not be normal.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I thought their relations were fairly normal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between them?

Mrs. PAINE. They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just reflected a tension between them that showed in this way.

Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small spat."

How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either.

Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation.

Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent with what you remember having happened there that night?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I appreciate that.

Mrs. PAINE. I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you specifically discussed that with Marina that evening?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you both agreed that that was the reason he came there?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also thought from observing Marina that she was glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up?

Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was left with my assumption unchallenged.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the events that are described by Marina's testimony that I have just read--could perfectly well have happened.

Mrs. PAINE. It could perfectly well have happened--indeed--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did you think about your previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make up the argument that he had with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. That's what I thought he must have come for.

Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing this testimony, as it occurred between Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day?

Mrs. PAINE. What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a washing machine in your house?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina use it?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said. I was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my being--my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE. We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her part in terms of his feelings to say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that in front of him?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you know a lot more vocabulary than I did."

Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others. Would you think that would be a fair statement?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the presence of others--I mean yourself.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the incident you have just related, of course, is an example.

Mrs. PAINE. I would say that it is an example and I am trying to think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others," is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to understand his hope to please her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of sincere relationship between themselves?

Mrs. PAINE. I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with.

Mr. LIEBELER. My characterization assumed a continuance of the relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have never seen them together, of course.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds' situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something about the ketchup.

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing.

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not proceeding toward a mature relationship though----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual relations between herself and Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you testified about that previously?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you care to tell us?

Mrs. PAINE. I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual relationship?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or not, and whether she planned to try to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if she told you some of those things.

Mrs. PAINE. Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly was not put that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with her sexual relations with Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November?

Mrs. PAINE. She mentioned that she had once left him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any of the details of it?

Mrs. PAINE. Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that was said about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, that's how I met her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You know De Mohrenschildt yourself?

Mrs. PAINE. I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend between the hosts of the evening party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Glover?

Mrs. PAINE. And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean that that might have been to whom she went?

Mr. LIEBELER. I just want to know if she ever discussed De Mohrenschildt with you?

Mrs. PAINE. I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered. She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got that straight as to who was married.

Mr. LIEBELER. She never discussed her own feelings about De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself and her husband?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would like to ask you one more.

You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone conversation between you and anyone.

Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November 23, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I did know--from watching TV.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only telephone conversation between those two numbers on those 2 days that you know of?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the President?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never meant to suggest anything or never said anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else?

Mrs. PAINE. No--never--that has absolutely not occurred to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged attack on General Walker?

Mrs. PAINE. You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have we discussed it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--at any time.

Mrs. PAINE. I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications were such that he had no such information.

Mr. LIEBELER. By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate then that he had had any prior knowledge of it?

Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several days--more than a week after the assassination that something was printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that until he found out about it in the newspaper?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did they not?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE. No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what was among these things that Robert Oswald and Mr. Martin took?

Mrs. PAINE. They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things that I did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to Robert Oswald's to find it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like that, copies of The Militant or The Worker?

Mrs. PAINE. I did not see--most of what was done was what was put in. I busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the Oswald's property.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and The Militant at your address?

Mrs. PAINE. I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was, do you?

Mrs. PAINE. It must have been the current one.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to that?

Mrs. PAINE. I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper, I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when it had come?

Mrs. PAINE. During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2 weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did come up on Thursday night?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the newspaper, at your address, wasn't he?

Mrs. PAINE. I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to look at when he arrived on Friday night.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come during the period from his last visit to Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE. That's right; he had not been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't look at those on Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember what they were?

Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not certain.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one copy of The Militant?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember when it had come?

Mrs. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many copies of The Worker?

Mrs. PAINE. One.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in.

Mrs. PAINE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL RALPH PAINE

The testimony of Michael Ralph Paine was taken at 12:05 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. PAINE. Michael Ralph Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are familiar with the Commission's procedure and you have testified before the Commission as I have heretofore indicated, isn't that correct?

Mr. PAINE. I have testified before--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously that when you first met Lee Oswald in April 1963, that you discussed to some extent Gen. Edwin A. Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think we did discuss him in passing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had been involved in the attempt on General Walker's life?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember at all--nothing whatsoever. I think the only thing he did--the only thing that I can remember now, was that he seemed to have a smile in regard to that person. It was inscrutable--I didn't know what he was smiling about--I just thought perhaps it was--the guy assumed it was rapport for a person who was an extreme proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker was?

Mr. PAINE. General Walker was--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you first met Oswald, as I recall, on April 2, I believe it was, of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. You have been keeping up with this--I haven't been thinking about Oswald for a year.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection as to the date at this point?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you did meet Oswald sometime in April, for the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that Walker had been attacked?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall now; and as I remember--back in the fall--I wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. It isn't just a lapse of memory now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with Oswald the fact that someone had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. No--I don't. That would have led me to think it was prior to his being shot at.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to this specific date. Now, my question means to comprehend any time--do you remember discussing at any time with Oswald the fact that General Walker had been attacked?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. I didn't see him--I saw him that one evening, you see, and then I didn't see him for a space of some time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him after that one time in April until after he had returned from New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. I guess that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that would have been in October 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On June 11, 1964, Marina Oswald testified before the Commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated on page 7368 of the Commission's transcript:

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes ago, that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's attitude about the United States than you do. Why did you say that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion was politics and whoever he was with, he talked to them politics and Mr. Paine was with him a fair amount and I am not sure they talked about politics.

Apparently it should have been "I am quite sure they talked about politics." But, at any rate, the transcript does read, "I am not sure they talked about politics."

They went to meetings of some kind together. I don't know what kind of meetings.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me something about Walker being at this meeting.

Do you remember going at any meeting with Lee Oswald at which Mr. Walker was present?

Mr. PAINE. No--the only meeting I went to was the ACLU meeting, that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall going to any meeting yourself in October 1963, with or without Oswald, at which General Walker was present?

Mr. PAINE. General Walker was present at the--Oswald mentioned the U.N.-U.S. Day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or two or two nights before the ACLU meeting. He had been to that by himself. I had gone that same evening to a John Birch meeting. We were not together, but they were two things that occurred simultaneously, and that's where Lee, by his report at the ACLU meeting said he was and Walker was there. Maybe that's what Marina had in mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your ever being at a meeting when he was there?

Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen General Walker that I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Unless he was--in a year previous to that I had been to the Indignation Committee meeting--no--that is the answer to your previous question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever remember seeing General Walker present?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently learned that he was present, although you didn't see him?

Mr. PAINE. That's right--I can't remember about the previous year, but I don't think that has relevancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, since the time you met Oswald--you were at no meetings at which General Walker was present, to your knowledge?

Mr. PAINE. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina Oswald goes on to testify and I will recapitulate part of it, "After they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me something about Walker being at this meeting and he said, 'Paine knows that I shot him.'"

Do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, is and I have already asked you that and you testified you did not know Oswald shot Walker prior to the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any reason to believe that Oswald might have thought that you knew that he, Oswald, had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. I can't see how he would have thought I knew that. I just don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and I didn't catch his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume that he wasn't lying and that is the only way I can explain it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you think that this testimony that Marina has given is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on Oswald's part or on Marina's part?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever?

Mr. PAINE. I am perfectly certain that I didn't know he shot at Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina herself goes on to say:

I don't know whether this was the truth or not, I don't know whether it was true or not, but this is what they told me.

And I presume she means that's what Lee had told her.

Mr. PAINE. Now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that "they"--this is testimony in June, you said, and that "they" could possibly be Martin and Thorne. I don't know much about Martin and Thorne either, but I had the impression that they were telling her stories.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, this is what the translator said Marina had said. Marina is going to be here tomorrow and I will ask her about this then and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want to bring out now at this time is that your testimony is quite clear that you did not know before the assassination that Oswald had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified before that Oswald had shown you one of those newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they wanted you to do by doing some reading between the lines; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that he was specifically referring to a copy of The Worker that he showed you at that time?

Mr. PAINE. It was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald reading The Militant?

Mr. PAINE. I do not now remember which are the things that I have come to realize later and which I knew at the time. I was not particularly aware of The Militant, as I recall. I really have to remember what my feelings were back in the fall when I was questioned on the matter and that, as I recall, the name and quality or the name and nature of The Militant wasn't really very familiar to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about the U.S. policies toward Cuba?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't think we did discuss that except in the very brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's approval--apparent approval of Castro and citing that he was a Communist.

Mr. LIEBELER. I remember you testified about that before--that it was on the way back home after an ACLU meeting.

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him, or thought if that was what he had to go on to identify anyone as a Communist, that he apparently was reaching quite far?

Mr. PAINE. I thought so, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that in the fall of 1963 there was a climate of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente between the United States and the Soviet Union that apparently led people in some quarters to believe that the Soviet Union would withdraw its support from the Castro regime or at least modify its attitude?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about that?

Mr. PAINE. No, we did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of such a thing?

Mr. PAINE. We very seldom spoke about it. Most of our discussions were to the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area of disagreement it didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so we didn't talk about Soviet-American relations as I recall it in that regard.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual?

Mr. PAINE. I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person, but he could work at Bell.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our discussions in Washington, we had some conversations about what you thought Oswald's possible motive might have been for the assassination--I don't think you have really ever set them forth for us on the record, and if you care to give us your views on that, I would appreciate having them.

Mr. PAINE. I was more eager to speak about it then--I was thinking about it then. Since that time I haven't thought about it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time you were in Washington?

Mr. PAINE. I think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are now. I thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his head when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a duck blind there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even though he couldn't predict from that action what course history would take, that in my opinion would not have deterred him from doing it. I thought that he was of the mind that something small or evolutionary changes were never going to be of any effect. It had to be, though he never revealed to me what kind of actions or policies he would have advocated or did advocate or did want to see--I had frequently had the impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic nature, where kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those actions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society ought to be structured?

Mr. PAINE. Yes--he did discuss them but not in a way---did he ever describe anything that could be real. It was more a way that society should not be structured, that he talked about. Now, I shouldn't really say that--it was a negative description of how society should not be, and I never did get a description of what he would like or what one of a more positive nature would be like.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't know about the suddenness but he assumed that the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I never did get it clear in my mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you he had written about this subject?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never read any of the things he wrote?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know he had written about anything?

Mr. PAINE. No; if I had thought he had written about something, I would certainly have been eager to have read it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opinion that this man was psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and neurosis or psychosis--you pick it.

Mr. PAINE. No; truthfully, I should say that did not appear to be a good description. It seemed simpler and more to the point to say he was extremely bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in people. There was mostly evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the description--that was his opinion or would be his description of most people. That's my description, and the best description I can give of him--to call him other psychological names--names of paranoia or paranoid or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you pick that particular name?

Mr. PAINE. Well, that kind of suspicion of people--expecting them to be consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed people--workers--is perhaps a trait of paranoia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he exhibited this trait?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. He didn't generally take it--I would say he was paranoid if he always took it personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put himself in the class of people who were oppressed, so that's the distinction why I wouldn't call him sick or wouldn't have then called him sick--before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in institutional terms?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in terms of the social structure and the impact the world had on classes and groups of people?

Mr. PAINE. He was in the exploited class.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there was no doubt about that--I mean, as far as his own mind was concerned--that's what he thought?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes that were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it clear that he did regard himself as being included in that class of people.

Mr. PAINE. That's correct. Now, I think he was a little--I can't remember now where I got the impression that he was allergic to the FBI, which is another case of him mentioning being sensitive to a person--a sense of persecution, but the only thing that I do remember that he did mention that surprised me a little bit was his sense of personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving company.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you say you cannot remember where you got the idea that he was allergic to the FBI, you mean you don't remember whether you were aware of that before the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of it before the assassination or can't you remember?

Mr. PAINE. I think I learned that from Ruth's statement of things that he had said and I don't remember whether that was before or after.

Mr. LIEBELER. For instance, if you were told that he in fact did have quite an allergy to the FBI, whether you were aware of it or not at that time, I suppose that that would provide an example of one or two things--either an accurate description of what was going on or a slightly exaggerated or greatly exaggerated notion of what was going on and to that extent a manifestation of this feeling of persecution, as he put it.

Mr. PAINE. Yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and the fact that he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things that would have to have the legitimate fear of the surveillance by the FBI because he would want to be attempting to do something that wasn't legal or proper. In other words, that would agitate him with grounds--for other reasons than paranoia.

Mr. LIEBELER. One of the witnesses who knew him in the Marine Corps testified that he thought that Oswald had a persecution complex which he strove to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he was certainly--I wanted to give him some sense of letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the world and to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward his enemies--his employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully in control of the social situation as he made out, and he certainly resisted all efforts on my part to think in a more generous and active way toward people toward whom he felt bitter. In other words, he had no inclination or tendency to try to get out of that mood--I don't remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that attitude.

I suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about the only way he would or could get it out. He perhaps never had any experience of relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being kind to someone, so you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that was just pious or just talking to suggest that that was a way out of that feeling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our particular society?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive feelings.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that it affected his attitude toward almost everything?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with his wife?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. I thought he was very proper.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, this is the way I supposed he was. I knew that he didn't smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine attitude toward women or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a form of life that would be contradictory to his ethics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no idea that he had been engaged in the Fair Play for Cuba activities while he was in New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Ruth about Oswald's employment situation in New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall--no. I think I asked her what kind of a job he had found, and that was the extent of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you he had found?

Mr. PAINE. She said he had found the same kind of work he left here--the engraving business--or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Ruth ever mentioning that Oswald had said that he had gotten fired from his job in New Orleans because of his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember her mentioning that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. PAINE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. GEN. EDWIN A. WALKER AND GEN. CLYDE J. WATTS

The testimony of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker was taken at 4:15 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that General Walker is being represented by Clyde J. Watts of Oklahoma City.

Would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

General WALKER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to be represented by counsel. As the record now indicates, you are represented by counsel, General Watts. I understand that you are appearing voluntarily before the Commission in response to its request to give testimony touching upon certain matters relating to Lee Harvey Oswald and to the assassination of President Kennedy. Is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have the record show that prior to the commencement of this deposition, a discussion between General Watts and General Walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement under which a copy of the transcript of the testimony which will be taken here today will be made available here at the office of the U.S. attorney for examination by General Walker and by his counsel. They will be given an opportunity to make whatever changes in the testimony may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects accurately what happened here today.

We also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with Mr. Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, that as soon as a copy can reasonably be made available, within 2 or 3 days after this transcript has been signed by General Walker and approved by me, a copy of the transcript will be made available to General Walker at his expense. It may be purchased from the court reporter here in Dallas. We will make whatever arrangements may seem proper at that time to give the general a corrected copy. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

General WALKER. Edwin A. Walker. A stands for Anderson.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

General WALKER. 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there?

General WALKER. I believe since December of 1961 or January of 1962. I am not sure of the month I moved in.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your background for the record, since I think we all know who you are, but you are a retired major general, are you not?

General WALKER. No. I am former major general, now resigned from the U.S. Army.

Mr. LIEBELER. You resigned from the Army. Where were you originally born and raised, general?

General WALKER. At Center Point, Tex. I was born in 1909, November 10. Center Point is Kerr County. It is C-e-n-t-e-r P-o-i-n-t, Kerr County, Tex. That is 60 miles west of San Antonio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since your resignation from the Army and your taking up residence in Dallas, you have been active, have you not, in various political endeavors here in Dallas and throughout the United States?

General WALKER. Patriotic and political endeavors.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, 1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them?

General WALKER. I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I heard a blast and a crack right over my head.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then?

General WALKER. I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything outside that you could relate to this attack on you?

General WALKER. No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a getaway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs directly at the rear of your house; is that correct?

General WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, or does it join with another alley?

General WALKER. No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with the street called Avondale.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that to get----

General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was just making the turn out of the church alley.

Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?

General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or twice only.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door of your house?

General WALKER. I went out the back door.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley?

General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just turning?

General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. I could see out the south window, front and left.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering Turtle Creek Boulevard?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned?

General WALKER. Left, going north.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the automobile at all?

General WALKER. None at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it?

General WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just debarking?

General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably wouldn't have seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can hardly see.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it.

General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. It is not really a picture. They used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct?

General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks like. I could take the picture and probably match it up with those flowers. It is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is shown in that picture.

General WATTS. Can we go off the record a minute?

Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly.

(Discussion off the record.)

General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally?

General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house, taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it shows the shot and the broken glass in the window.

Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home?

General WALKER. The window of my home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at you on April 10, 1963?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk?

General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a minute.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right.

General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. I didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking the picture was taken from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and it is from the outside. This looks like there is a table here, from this window, and in the corner running that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window?

General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this corner, and that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. It is possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. There are two windows in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. That is one of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel. The window is still further back here.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture?

General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk?

General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk across the room?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window, or was it sitting catercornered?

General WALKER. It was sitting catercornered in the corner on the opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways?

General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from the back, or from the front? I think it would be from the side.

General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point?

General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to the Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture of that window.

General WALKER. That is the same shot then.

Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the window frame before it went through. Does that accord with your recollection?

General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame. Then it went through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a picture of the next room.

General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the glass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that was stored and the place where the bullet came out.

General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as Walker Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion as to the identification of that picture.

(General Walker initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture what it shows?

General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard of my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed east. It shows the fence running down on the left side between my rented property, and the church property.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where the police officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over there in front of a window, isn't there?

General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is standing in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time the shot was fired at you? You were sitting in a room that is not even visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the right. His position is to the right.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture?

General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot came in that picture?

General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that time, and specifically I wonder----

General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and showed them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked me out or not. There wasn't much to tell them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it appeared the shot had been fired?

General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture?

General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Walker Exhibit No. 1. Were you able to determine to your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired?

General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence which had spaces in it, squares of about 4 to 6 inches.

Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this point, based on the information I have.

Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked Walker Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there.

(General Walker initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence to which you have just referred?

General WALKER. Yes; it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that correct?

I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera with the rifle through the fence?

General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely have been right in this picture, that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, I have considerable difficulty in that I can't see the window through which the shot went. How could the shot have been fired from there?

General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is just a question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation?

General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. Windows don't show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6 glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit that doesn't show.

Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in.

Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you come to the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3 feet to the corner of the house.

Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being Walker Exhibit No. 1.

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