Warren Commission (04 of 26): Hearings Vol. IV (of 15) (part 3 of 5)
Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them.
Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right, Governor Connally, immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that occasion?
Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any estimate as to the distance which the President's automobile traveled during the shooting?
Governor CONNALLY. No; I hadn't thought about it, but I would suppose in 10 to 12 seconds, I suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the windshield?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the metal chrome?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you experience any sensation of being struck any place other than that which you have described on your chest?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you sustain?
Governor CONNALLY. A fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just above the knee.
Mr. SPECTER. What thigh?
Governor CONNALLY. Left thigh; just above the knee.
Mr. SPECTER. Where on the wrist were you injured, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. I don't know how you describe it.
Mr. SPECTER. About how many inches up from the wrist joint?
Governor CONNALLY. I would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out almost in the center of the wrist on the underside.
Mr. SPECTER. About an inch from the base of the palm?
Governor CONNALLY. About an inch from the base of the palm, a little less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at the time you sustained it?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first know you were wounded in the right wrist?
Governor CONNALLY. When I came to in the hospital on Saturday, the next morning, and I looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and I said, "What is wrong with my arm?" And they told me then that I had a shattered wrist, and that is when I also found out I had a wound in the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly deep penetration.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 inches?
Governor CONNALLY. No; I would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter long is all; fairly wide, I would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch and a half long.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left thigh at the time it occurred?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you first notice that in the hospital on the following day also?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all.
Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of your chest, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. I would say, if the Committee would be interested, I would just as soon you look at it. Is there any objection to any of you looking at it?
The CHAIRMAN. No.
Governor CONNALLY. You can tell yourself.
I would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that groove, and exited about 2 inches toward the center of the body from the right nipple of my chest. I can identify these for you.
The bullet went in here--see if I properly describe that--about the juncture of the right arm and the shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that the Governor has removed his shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward.
Governor CONNALLY. The other two are tubes that were inserted in my back by the doctors.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with identifiable precision where the wounds are.
Dr. SHAW. There is the wound of the drain that has been specifically described. It was not as large as the scar indicated because in cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised in order to make a cleaner incision. This scar----
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the location, Doctor, of that wound on the Governor's back?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right shoulder, I will feel it, just lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about 2 centimeters from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall.
Mr. SPECTER. What other scars are shown there on the Governor's back?
Dr. SHAW. The other scars are surgically induced. This is the incision that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space.
Mr. SPECTER. And there you are indicating an incision at what location, please?
Dr. SHAW. Just at the angle of the shoulder blade. Here is the angle of the shoulder blade.
These incisions were never closed by suture. These incisions were left open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because in this case there was what we call a Penrose drain, which is a soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow any material to drain. This was to prevent infection. The other small opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth interspace.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicate its location, please, Doctor, on his back.
Dr. SHAW. This is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the posterior axillary line, roughly this line.
Mr. SPECTER. There you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right back, but getting close to the lateral portion of the chest. This also was a stab wound which was never sutured. There was a rubber drain through this that led to what we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating again the second medically inflicted wound.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you now, Doctor, describe the location of the wound of exit on the Governor's chest, please?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple. Here was this =V= that I was indicating. It is almost opposite that. At the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least 5 centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were excised, and here again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little separation there.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the entire scar there, Doctor, for the record, please?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. The entire surgical incision runs from the anterior portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch, the =V= formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion or the posterior lateral wall of the chest.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of the scar, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. Twenty centimeters, about.
Mr. DULLES. Where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that scar about?
Dr. SHAW. Here.
Mr. DULLES. There?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. All of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet.
Mr. DULLES. Would you give us in your hand the area of declination from the entry to the----
Dr. SHAW. This way.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate that angle for us, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. We are talking about the angle now, of course, with the horizontal, and I would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°.
Mr. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions.
Governor CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question.
Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°.
Mr. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it?
Dr. SHAW. Measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the posterior wound over the anterior wound.
The CHAIRMAN. The course being downward back to front?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. Back to front.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. At the time of the initial examination, as I described, this portion of the Governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason I didn't want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having the incision directly over the softened area.
Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would the angle be the same if the Governor were seated now the way he was in the chair?
Dr. SHAW. That is a good question. Of course, we don't know exactly whether he was back or tipped forward. But I don't think there is going to be much difference.
Mr. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of center.
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a seated position, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, seated; yes.
Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? How would his hand have been under those circumstances, Doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits very well, really, remembering at the other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see it best from over here really, because you did see that the point of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to visualize the trajectory.
Mr. DULLES. Would you be naturally holding your hand in that position?
Dr. GREGORY. It could be any place.
Governor CONNALLY. It could be anywhere on that line, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. Chief Justice, you see this is the leg.
Dr. SHAW. Of course, the wound is much smaller than this.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the Governor has displayed the left thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left thigh.
Dr. Gregory, will you describe the locale of that?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes. This scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if I may just interject that----
Mr. SPECTER. Please do.
Dr. GREGORY. The excisional scar to the Governor's thigh is located at a point approximately 10 or 12 centimeters above the adductor tubercule of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third of his thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. In lay language, Doctor, about how far is that up from the knee area?
Dr. GREGORY. Five inches, 6 inches.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, can you recreate the position that you were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the time you think you were struck?
Governor CONNALLY. I think, having turned to look over my right shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, I threw my right wrist over on my left leg.
Mr. SPECTER. And in the position you are seated now, with your right wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two from your knee?
Governor CONNALLY. From the knee.
Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Gregory, would that be in approximate alignment which has been characterized on Commission Exhibit----
Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. In a moment here I can get that exhibit.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question in the meantime?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You turned to the right, as I recall your testimony, because you heard the sound coming from the right?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. How did you happen to turn then to the left, do you remember why that was?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I know exactly. I turned to the right both to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where the sound came from, but even more important, I immediately thought it was a rifleshot, I immediately thought of an assassination attempt, and I turned to see if I could see the President, to see if he was all right. Failing to see him over my right shoulder, I turned to look over my left shoulder.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Governor CONNALLY. Into the back seat, and I never completed that turn. I got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the left of forward, when I got hit.
Representative BOGGS. May I ask one of the doctors a question? What is the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type?
Dr. GREGORY. I will defer the answer to Dr. Shaw. From the wrist, excellent so far as recovery is concerned. Functionally, recovery is going to be good, too, and Dr. Shaw can take on the other one.
Dr. SHAW. We never had any doubt about the Governor's recovery. We knew what we had to do and we felt he could recover. I think I indicated that to Mrs. Connally.
Governor CONNALLY. As soon as you got into the chest and found out what it was.
Representative BOGGS. But, there was a very serious wound, was there not, Doctor?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. It was both a shocking and painful wound, and the effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very dangerous as far as Governor Connally was concerned, because he had what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to breathe. I think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and he may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. But they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest.
Representative BOGGS. Had hospitalization been delayed for about another half hour or so----
Dr. SHAW. That is speculation, but I don't think he could have maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that type of wound. It is a little speculation. It would depend on how well he could protect himself. We have had instances where by putting their jackets around them like this, they could occlude this, and go for a considerable period of time. Airmen during the war instinctively protected themselves in this way.
Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about his physical ability to serve as Governor?
Dr. SHAW. None whatever. [Laughter.]
Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.
Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that.
Representative BOGGS. Just one other question of the Doctor. Having looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that that bullet came from the rear, is there?
Dr. GREGORY. There has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin of the missile; no.
Representative BOGGS. And in yours?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, this is the exhibit which I was referring to, being 689. Was that your approximate position except--that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left leg as you have just described?
Governor CONNALLY. No; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest. But I don't know. I can't say with any degree of certainty where my right hand was, frankly.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally----
Governor CONNALLY. It could have been up on my chest, it could have been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could have been anywhere. I just don't remember.
I obviously, I suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day realizing I was hit in three places, and I was not conscious of having been hit but by one bullet, so I tried to reconstruct how I could have been hit in three places by the same bullet, and I merely, I know it penetrated from the back through the chest first.
I assumed that I had turned as I described a moment ago, placing my right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have happened that way at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be on a normal chair such as you are sitting on?
Governor CONNALLY. I would say it was not unlike this, with the exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to an inch higher.
Mr. DULLES. In this photograph you happen to have your right arm on the side of the car. I don't know whether you recall that. That is Commission Exhibit 698. That just happened to be one pose at one particular time?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I don't think there is any question, Mr. Dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. We had arms extended out of the car, on the side.
Mr. DULLES. That was taken earlier, I believe. Was that on Main Street? Where was that taken?
Representative BOGGS. I wonder if I might ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.
Representative BOGGS. This is a little bit off the subject, but it is pretty well established that the Governor was shot and he has recovered. Do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy afoot for somebody to assassinate you?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.
Representative BOGGS. Had you ever received any threat from Lee Harvey Oswald of any kind?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Representative BOGGS. Did you know him?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Representative BOGGS. Had you ever seen him?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Representative BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.
Representative BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this Commission.
But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that I can think of.
You ask me my theory, and that is my theory, and certainly not substantiated by any facts.
Representative BOGGS. Going on again, Governor, and again using the word "theory," do you have any reason to believe that there was any connection between Oswald and Ruby?
Governor CONNALLY. I have no reason to believe that there was; no, Congressman. By the same token, if you ask me do I have any reason not to believe it, I would have to answer the same, I don't know.
Representative BOGGS. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. I just don't have any knowledge or any information about the background of either, and I am just not in a position to say.
Mr. DULLES. You recall your correspondence with Oswald in connection with Marine matters, when he thought you were still Secretary of the Navy?
Governor CONNALLY. After this was all over, I do, Mr. Dulles. As I recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be corrected. But at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that I had resigned as Secretary of the Navy a month before I got the letter, so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any grudge as a result of that when I had resigned as Secretary prior to the receipt of the letter.
Mr. DULLES. I think I can say without violating any confidence, that there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was--in fact, Marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. There was no animus against you on the part of Oswald, as you----
Governor CONNALLY. I have wondered, of course, in my own mind as to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and the only--I suppose like any person at that particular moment, I represented authority to him. Perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit enough to where I was as much a target as anyone else. But that is the only conceivable basis on which I can assume that he was deliberately trying to hit me.
Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.
On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the moving pictures, Governor?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any point of exit on your thigh wound?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. (to Dr. Gregory.) Would you give the precise condition of the right wrist, and cover the thigh, too?
Dr. GREGORY. The present state of the wound on his wrist indicates that the linear scar made in the course of the excision is well healed; that its upper limb is about----
Governor CONNALLY. I thinks he wants you to describe the position of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; the position.
Dr. GREGORY. I was about to do that. The upper limb of it is about 5 centimeters above the wrist joint, and curves around toward the thumb distally to about a centimeter above the wrist joint.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of that?
Dr. GREGORY. The length of that excisional scar is about 4 centimeters, an inch and a half.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the wound appearing to be on the palmer side?
Dr. GREGORY. The wound on the palmer side of the wrist is now converted to a well-healed linear scar approximately one-half inch in length, and located about three-quarters of an inch above the distal flexion crease.
Representative BOGGS. What is the prognosis for complete return of function there?
Dr. GREGORY. Very good, Congressman; very good.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I now show you the black jacket and ask you if you can identify what that jacket is, whose it is?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is mine.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you last wear that jacket?
Governor CONNALLY. On November 22 I was wearing this, the day of the shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you Commission Exhibit 683 and ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the jacket, as it appears at the moment?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 684, and ask if that is a photograph of the rear side of the jacket?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a shirt and ask you if you can identify this as having been the shirt you wore on the day of the assassination?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the shirt I had on.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 685 and ask if that is a picture of the rear side of the shirt?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 686 is shown to you, and I ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the shirt?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a pair of black trousers and ask you if you can identify them?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; these are the trousers to the coat we looked at a moment ago. They were the trousers I was wearing on the day of the shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph and ask you, which is Exhibit 687, if that is a photograph of the front of the trousers?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 688 and ask you if that depicts the rear of the trousers?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a tie, and ask you if you can identify that?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the tie I was wearing on the day of the shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 700 and ask if that is a picture of the tie?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the permanent home of these clothes at the present time when they are not on Commission business?
Governor CONNALLY. They, the Archives of the State of Texas, asked for the clothing, and I have given the clothing to them. That is where they were sent from, I believe, here, to this Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. At this juncture, Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission in evidence of Commission Exhibits 699 and 700.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The items marked Commission Exhibits 699 and 700 for identification were received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, in 1963 we were informed that Lee Harvey Oswald paid a visit to Austin. Tex., and is supposed to also have visited your office. Do you have any knowledge of such a visit?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. What date did you give?
Mr. SPECTER. 1963.
Representative BOGGS. What date in 1963?
Mr. SPECTER. We do not have the exact date on that.
Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a minute. Would your office records indicate such a visit?
Governor CONNALLY. It might or might not, Congressman. We have----
Representative BOGGS. That is what I would think.
Governor CONNALLY. We have there a reception room that is open from about 9:30 to 12 and from 2 to 4 every day, and depending on the time of the year there are literally hundreds of people who come in there. There would be as high as 80 at a time that come in groups, and a tour--this is a very large reception room which, frankly, we can't use for any other purpose because it is so useful for tourists, and they literally come in by the hundreds, and some days we will have a thousand people in that room on any given day. So for me to say he never was in there, I couldn't do that; and he might well have been there, and no record of it in the office.
We make no attempt to keep a record of all the people who come in. If they come in small groups or if they have appointments with me, or one of my assistants, yes, we do. We keep records of people who come in and want to leave a card or leave word that they dropped by. But I have no knowledge that he ever came by.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, on your recitation of the events on the day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the hospital. What recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the way to the hospital from the assassination scene?
Governor CONNALLY. None really. I think at that point I had lost consciousness because I don't have any recollection, Mr. Specter, of anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. It was a very short period of time, but I don't remember it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection of your arrival at the hospital itself, at the Parkland Hospital?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes. I think when the car stopped the driver was obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness.
Again, a strange thing--strange things run through your mind and, perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but I immediately--the only thought that occurred to me was that I was in the jump seat next to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with the President; that I had to get out of the way so they could get to the President. So although I was reclining, and again Mrs. Connally holding me, I suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand upright to get myself out of the car.
I got--I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point.
I was conscious then off and on during the time I was in the emergency room. I don't recall that I remember everything, but I remember quite a bit. I remember being wheeled down the passageway, I remember doctors and various people talking in the emergency room. I remember them asking me a number of questions, too, which I answered, but that was about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Governor CONNALLY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, other than that which you have already testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before the trip or with the President in Texas during his trip, or after his trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all, either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip, other than those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the facts surrounding the assassination?
Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; Mr. Specter, I don't.
I want to express my gratitude to the Commission for hearing me so patiently, but I only wish I could have added something more that would be helpful to the Commission on arriving at the many answers to so many of these difficult problems, but I don't.
I can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the events and what happened. It is rather amazing in retrospect when you think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely which way I was looking or where my hand or arm was, I can only say I hope it is understandable in the light of the fact that this was a very sudden thing. It was a very shocking thing.
I have often wondered myself why I never had the presence of mind enough--I obviously did say something; I said, "Oh, no, no, no," and then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."
I don't know why I didn't say. "Get down in the car," but I didn't. You just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some things you ought to do.
But I am again grateful to this Commission as a participant in this tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and I want to express, I think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and energy and the dedication that this Commission has devoted to trying to supply the answers that people, I am sure, will be discussing for generations to come. I know it has been a difficult, long, laborious task for you, but I know that generations of the future Americans will be grateful for your efforts.
Representative BOGGS. Governor, I would like to say that we have had fine cooperation from all of your Texas officials, from the attorney general of the State, and from his people and others who have worked with the Commission.
Governor CONNALLY. Well, we are delighted, and I am very happy that the attorney general is here with us today.
Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Cooper.
Senator COOPER. Governor, at the time you all passed the Texas School Book Depository, did you know that such a building was located there? Were you familiar with the building at all?
Governor CONNALLY. Just vaguely, Senator.
Senator COOPER. But now when you heard the shot, you turned to your right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that direction. As you turned, was that in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it was.
Senator COOPER. Do you remember an overpass in front of you----
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. As you moved down?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Were you aware at all of any sounds of rifleshots from the direction of the overpass, from the embankment?
Governor CONNOLLY. No, sir; I don't believe there were such.
Senator COOPER. Well, you know, there have been stories.
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; but I don't believe that.
Senator COOPER. I wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the fact--you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of any shot from the embankment or overpass. The answer is what?
Governor CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifleshot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifleshot, at the time I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. I thought it was a rifleshot. I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard no other. The first and third shots came from there. I heard no other sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance of shots or anything else on the overpass.
Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet?
Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?
Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?
Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.
Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.
Mr. SPECTER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?
Mr. DULLES. I have one or two. Governor, were you consulted at all about the security arrangements in connection with the Dallas visit?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we normally are not.
Mr. DULLES. I realize that.
Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, the Secret Service, as you know, comes in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various city police, and the various localities in which we are going. So far as I know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone concerned, but I was not consulted.
Mr. DULLES. I think you mentioned that there was a slight change in plans before the arrival in San Antonio. I don't know whether it affects our investigation at all. Do you recall that?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I don't know whether it--I don't think it affects the testimony at all. I was merely trying to relate some of the problems that had gone into planning a Presidential trip into four cities.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. And trying to arrange this all initially within about a 12-hour period which had been expanded into a little more than that because the President finally agreed to come the day before, and come into San Antonio on the afternoon before the Thomas dinner on Thursday night.
Mr. DULLES. That was the change you had in mind?
Governor CONNALLY. This was the change. This gave us much more latitude because it permitted us to go into San Antonio, which is one of the major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated the Aerospace Medical Center on Thursday, which meant we did not have to crowd Thursday. But there was a change, but not significant to this investigation.
Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to recall in general when the decision was reached that the visit would include a trip to Dallas, or was that always a part?
Governor CONNALLY. I think it was always a part.
Mr. DULLES. Of the planning?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I think it was always a part. There was consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave out Dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was no question, I don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth.
Mr. DULLES. You do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on one side?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I sure don't.
Mr. DULLES. You and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have indicated that they recognized it as being a rifleshot. The other witness, like you, was a huntsman. Most of the witnesses have indicated they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a firecracker.
Can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifleshot from a backfire or a firecracker? Can you tell or is it just instinct?
Governor CONNALLY. I am not sure I could accurately describe it. I don't know that I have ever attempted to. I would say a firecracker or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you popped a balloon, or something of this sort. A rifleshot, on the other hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a metallic sound to it. It is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker or a blowout. It carries----
Mr. DULLES. That gives me what I had in mind. I realize that. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We are very appreciative of the help you have given us.
Senator COOPER. May I ask just one question?
The CHAIRMAN. We hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a rather general question? I would like to ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were aware that there might be some act of violence against the President?
Governor CONNALLY. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. Thank you.
Governor CONNALLY. No; let me say that there have been several news stories----
Senator COOPER. Yes, I know.
Governor CONNALLY. That purportedly quoted me about not wanting the President to ride in a motorcade or caravan in Dallas. That is very true. But the implication was that I had some fear of his life, which is not true.
The reason I didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply we were running out of time, and that, I thought, we were working him much too hard. This again was before the change, moving San Antonio to Thursday instead of having it all on one day, and I was opposed to a motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and I didn't think we had the time.
But once we got San Antonio moved from Friday to Thursday afternoon, where that was his initial stop in Texas, then we had the time, and I withdrew my objections to a motorcade.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor.
Governor CONNALLY. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, would you mind telling us the story of this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start right with the shooting itself, and Mr. Specter will also examine you.
Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you sit, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Are you the wife of Governor John C. Connally?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I am the wife of Governor John B. Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, tell us what happened at the time of the assassination.
Mrs. CONNALLY. We had just finished the motorcade through the downtown Dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. The people had been very responsive to the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and we were very pleased, I was very pleased.
As we got off Main Street--is that the main thoroughfare?
Mr. SPECTER. That is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes.
Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.
I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."
Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.
Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."
I never again----
Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more.
The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."
Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.
Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.
Mr. SPECTER. How fast do you think he was going?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast.
We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time you and Governor Connally were still on the jump seats of the car?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, and they had not--the President was still--and Mrs. Kennedy were still in the back. I still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot. I could hear, you know, hear them talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the President was in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was--I guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead.
Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything at all after the shooting?
Mrs. CONNALLY. He did not say anything. Mrs. Kennedy said, the first thing I recall her saying was, after the first shot, and I heard her say, "Jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second shot, and then after the third shot she said, "They have killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several times, and that was all the conversation.
Mr. SPECTER. From that point forward you say you had your eyes to the front so you did not have a chance----
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, because I had him, and I really didn't think about looking back anyway, but I could just see the car rushing along, and people and things rushing past us. I remember thinking what a terrible sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and it was a terribly horrifying thing, and I think that is about as I remember it.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened then after you got to the hospital?
Mrs. CONNALLY. We got to the hospital and, like I said, John heaved himself over. They still could not seem to get Mrs. Kennedy or the President out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in their arms and put him on a stretcher. There were two stretchers there, and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they ran down the hall with the stretcher, and I just ran along with them.
They took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the President on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to the right. There was much commotion and confusion. There were lots of what I assumed were Secret Service men rushing in with machine guns, I guess, or tommyguns. I am not real sure, they were big arms of some sort. There was no one--there were lots of people across the hall. There was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, I guess like any other woman, I wondered if all the doctors were in the room on the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the right. I shouldn't have worried about that, should I?
I knew no one in the hospital and I was alone. Twice I got up and opened the door into the emergency room, and I could hear John and I could see him moving, and I knew then that he was still alive.
I guess that time was short, too. It seemed endless. Somebody rushed out, I thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. I later read that it was a lady doctor.
They took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and I just left with him and waited in an office. Do you know whose office I was in? It was where you came to me.
Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Jenkins' office.
Dr. SHAW. Yes. You were either in the anesthesia office or in the room that is part of the recovery room. Was it the same place where you later stayed, Mrs. Connally?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No.
Dr. GREGORY. I think it was back in Dr. Jenkins' office. That is where I believe I first saw you.
Mrs. CONNALLY. I believe that is right.
As soon as Dr. Shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good news.
I then asked if I couldn't go see Mrs. Kennedy, and they told me that she had left the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you visited at the hospital by Mrs. Johnson?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I was. But I assume that was before, since they left together, not much of a visit. She came by and we didn't have to say much, and then they left.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the source of the shots?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Well, I had no thought of whether they were high or low or where. They just came from the right; sounded like they were to my right.
Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first to the last shot?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third.
Mr. SPECTER. About how fast do you think the car was going then?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't really know. Not too fast. It was sort of a letdown time for us. We could relax for, we thought we could, for just a minute.
Mr. SPECTER. And you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had been passed?
Mrs. CONNALLY. We had gone by them. The underpass was in sight, and I knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would be going straight to the Trade Mart for the luncheon, and I felt like we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the films this morning here in the Commission office?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that Governor Connally was shot?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure I remember the numbers so correct me, but I thought at the time that it was that 229--it could have been then through the next three or four frames.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything----
Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the source, you say you thought it was to the right--did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear or side?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I thought it was from back of us.
Mr. SPECTER. To the rear?
Mrs. CONNALLY. To the right; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation or level?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't think so.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator, do you have any? Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?
Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third than between the first and the second; is that your recollection?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get whether I had heard you correctly on that.
Mrs. CONNALLY. You did.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, thank you very much. We hate to have you review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have your testimony, and you were very kind to come.
Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it very much, indeed.
(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)
Wednesday, April 22, 1964
TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY, J. W. FRITZ, T. L. BAKER, AND J. C. DAY
The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.
TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.
Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time of the assassination of the President.
I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all.
So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding.
Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CURRY. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition for the Commission recently, did you not?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. That was about April 15, 1964?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. RANKIN. And Mr. Hubert examined you?
Mr. CURRY. That is true.
Mr. RANKIN. That was taken down by a court reporter?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way?
Mr. CURRY. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.
Mr. RANKIN. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial matters if I may.
When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about what time that was, the day?
Mr. CURRY. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention?
Mr. CURRY. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.
Mr. RANKIN. What else did they say?
Mr. CURRY. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson and some of his staff to return to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.
Mr. RANKIN. What else--what did you do after that?
Mr. CURRY. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess perhaps an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?
Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. On the plane?
Mr. CURRY. On the plane; yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then you left Love Field?
Mr. CURRY. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?
Mr. CURRY. No; she was in her own car.
Mr. RANKIN. I see.
Mr. CURRY. And I returned to the city hall.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall it was approximately an hour.
Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought.
Mr. CURRY. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. CURRY. I returned to my office at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?
Mr. CURRY. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this?
Mr. CURRY. I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room.
As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, how was this different?
Mr. CURRY. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.
They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing.
The CHAIRMAN. Chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes?
Mr. CURRY. It is a section of the municipal building.
The CHAIRMAN. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?
Mr. CURRY. No; it is connected.
The CHAIRMAN. Connected?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau.
In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor.
Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. CURRY. But all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?
Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that his responsibility?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?
Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that your regular practice?
Mr. CURRY. That is the regular practice.
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us how this was done?
Mr. CURRY. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.
Mr. RANKIN. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?
Mr. CURRY. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one.
Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.
Mr. DULLES. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?
Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police department?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other than that he had no marks on him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time?
Mr. CURRY. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was done about that?
Mr CURRY. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time?
Mr. CURRY. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I do not have.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. How many times was he interrogated, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. No; I do not know that.
Mr. RANKIN. You never examined him yourself at any time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions?
Mr. CURRY. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?
Mr. CURRY. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?
Mr. CURRY. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he allowed to shower and clean up.
Mr. CURRY. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners?
Mr. CURRY. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?
What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on that?
Mr. CURRY. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him.
I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't know anything about anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about counsel?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with John Abt.
Mr. RANKIN. A-b-t?
Mr. CURRY. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?
Mr. CURRY. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could arrange for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone?
Mr. CURRY. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.
Mr. DULLES. Did he use this?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to him and came to the jail?
Mr. CURRY. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they talk to you?
Mr. CURRY. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.
Mr. RANKIN. How did this come to your attention?
Mr. CURRY. He told me.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Now, tell us what he said.
Mr. CURRY. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.
Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?
Mr. CURRY. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and----
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do?
Mr. CURRY. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.
The CHAIRMAN. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?
Mr. CURRY. Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas----
Dean STOREY. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association.
Mr. CURRY. Dallas Bar Association.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel.
The CHAIRMAN. On what day was this?
Mr. CURRY. That was on the same day we arrested him?
The CHAIRMAN. That was Friday?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone contacts.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned?
Mr. CURRY. It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the morning of the 23d, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. How long did he--how long had he been in your custody then?
Mr. CURRY. About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. When you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. No; that was for the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN. All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the Tippit murder?
Mr. CURRY. I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30.
Mr. RANKIN. That same evening?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the Tippit murder?
Mr. CURRY. For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for.
The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just to ask the chief a question?
Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; he does.
The CHAIRMAN. Does he ask him if he has counsel?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present when a person is arraigned.
The CHAIRMAN. You were not present at the arraignment?
Mr. CURRY. I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of Tippit.
The CHAIRMAN. I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure they do.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. They don't believe there was any.
Mr. CURRY. I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. He was there during most of the evening.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe for the Commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw.
Mr. CURRY. As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau.
Mr. RANKIN. How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements?
Mr. CURRY. At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't recall who all was there.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the criminal identification section. Could you describe what that is?
Mr. CURRY. That is the identification bureau.
Mr. RANKIN. Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in?
Mr. CURRY. It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what?
Mr. CURRY. He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on the other side of the counter.
Mr. RANKIN. What floor is this on?
Mr. CURRY. The fourth floor.
Mr. RANKIN. That is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is.
Mr. RANKIN. And besides the people that you have described, I assume that you yourself were there as you have said?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else that you recall?
Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what happened?
Mr. CURRY. Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall his exact words.
Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance.
Mr. CURRY. He didn't--as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just said, "I don't know what you are talking about."
Mr. RANKIN. What did the justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his right to plead?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about counsel?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr. RANKIN. What else happened at that time that you recall?
Mr. CURRY. That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you go back with him to the cell?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Who took him back to the cell?
Mr. CURRY. The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard.
Mr. RANKIN. What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of?
Mr. CURRY. The next thing that I know of, was the next morning.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened then?
Mr. CURRY. The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way.
Mr. RANKIN. What captain did you ask that?
Mr. CURRY. Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?
Mr. CURRY. He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed.
Mr. DULLES. Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know what--well, it did continue into that first night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN. They stopped?
Mr. CURRY. I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or three times.
Mr. RANKIN. Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said?
Mr. CURRY. He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the President."
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what time of day it was?
Mr. CURRY. It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the 22d.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there?
Mr. CURRY. They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN. What office do you mean when you say that?
Mr. CURRY. From the homicide office.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. You took him down what hallway?
Mr. CURRY. The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to indicate it?
Mr. CURRY. This extends up here a little more perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the elevator with "EL."
The CHAIRMAN. There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better have a new piece of paper.
Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence?
Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today.
(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN. Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have, principally the north end of it.
Mr. RANKIN. We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly for the Commission just what you have marked on there now?
Mr. CURRY. I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex.
Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south.
In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events.
I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau.
The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building.
The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. Each time we--that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost overrun by news media.
Mr. RANKIN. By overrun, what do you mean?
Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about 4 or 5 or 10?
Mr. CURRY. I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway.
(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN. Were some of them--I will withdraw that question.
Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true, sir.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.
In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?
Mr. CURRY. He said he didn't care to at this time.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?
Mr. CURRY. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.
Mr. RANKIN. That is to Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Oswald say?
Mr. CURRY. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."
Representative FORD. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.
Mr. RANKIN. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask for any instructions or advice?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. DULLES. Did it worry you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?
Mr. CURRY. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.
Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.
Mr. RANKIN. You have checked into it?
Mr. CURRY. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out in that regard?
Mr. CURRY. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.
Representative FORD. Were any press credentials found in his effects?
Mr. CURRY. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?
Mr. CURRY. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.
As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Is that the chart?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor.
Mr. CURRY. Of the police and courts building.
Mr. DULLES. What is the other word?
Mr. CURRY. Police and courts building.
Mr. DULLES. It will be accepted.
(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?
Mr. CURRY. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.
Mr. RANKIN. Who is the city manager?
Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mr. CURRY. I heartily agreed with him.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any other plans for change of security?
Mr. CURRY. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.
That we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.
And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?
Mr. CURRY. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. That is Exhibit 701.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.
Mr. RANKIN. What would you do?
Mr. CURRY. They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them what evidence you had?
Mr. CURRY. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you do that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe that was on Saturday, I think.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.
Mr. RANKIN. Where?
Mr. CURRY. On the TV film.
Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.
Mr. RANKIN. Any news releases?
Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.
Representative FORD. What report are you talking about now?
Mr. CURRY. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.
We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.
Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.
Mr. DULLES. I may be anticipating.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all right, go right ahead.
Mr. CURRY. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."
And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by reports?
Mr. CURRY. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.
Mr. RANKIN. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?
Mr. CURRY. Behind.
Mr. RANKIN. Rather than front?
Mr. CURRY. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?
Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the----
Representative FORD. Where were you sitting in the car, sir?
Mr. CURRY. I was driving.
Representative FORD. You were driving?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?
Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately.
Representative FORD. What was the order that you gave?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.
Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?
Mr. CURRY. They assigned officers to every overpass.
We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you see an officer there when you looked up?
Mr. CURRY. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.
Representative FORD. Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit?
And he said, "I am sure they have."
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.
As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.
Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."
But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that, haven't you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have told you about that.
Mr. RANKIN. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.
Mr. RANKIN. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?
Mr. CURRY. To my offices.
Mr. RANKIN. And Judge Hughes left at the same time?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?
Mr. CURRY. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the building immediately after the occasion?
Mr. CURRY. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.
Mr. RANKIN. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas--of where the shots were fired from.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he tell you he did then?
Mr. CURRY. He took charge of the investigation.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he do about the building?
Mr. CURRY. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after the original----
Mr. RANKIN. About what time?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps 12:40.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?
Mr. CURRY.I couldn't say whether it was before or after.
Mr. RANKIN. What else happened?
Mr. CURRY. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.
A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. Who is that?
Mr. CURRY. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you later what he did about that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.
Mr. McCLOY. Who was this man?
Mr. CURRY. George L. Lumpkin.
Mr. McCLOY. Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. McCLOY. On your staff?
Mr. CURRY. No; he is a police officer.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he an assistant chief?
Mr. CURRY. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.
Mr. RANKIN. And this was a deputy chief?
Mr. CURRY. A deputy chief; yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. And the other officers are appointed?
Mr. CURRY. Appointed, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. By you?
Mr. CURRY. By me, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the search was made?
Mr. CURRY. They reported to me that it was made, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?
Mr. CURRY. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?
Mr. DULLES. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.
Mr. CURRY. It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.
Mr. DULLES. Was that supplemented, though, by the police?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I believe we had officers there.
Mr. DULLES. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes----
Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately, yes.
Mr. DULLES. After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.--an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you remember that officer's name?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.
Mr. BELIN. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.
Mr. McCLOY. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.
Mr. McCLOY. The first man who sealed the building was----
Mr. CURRY. I believe will be Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. McCLOY. Inspector Sawyer?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer.
Mr. DULLES. You did not give those orders yourself?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not myself.
Representative FORD. How many men participated in the search of the building?
Mr. CURRY. I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 people.
Representative FORD. Did you check with those who went through this process?
Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't check with each individual officer.
Representative FORD. Did you get a report?
Mr. CURRY. I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief Lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched.
Representative FORD. How long did it take them, do you have any idea?
Mr. CURRY. I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building.
Representative FORD. Did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find?
Mr. CURRY. I believe there were some written reports made. I don't recall now.
Representative FORD. If there are written reports could we have them?
Mr. CURRY. I think----
Mr. RANKIN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. Back on the record.
Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired during the search of the building?
Mr. CURRY. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the President would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report.
Representative FORD. If there is a report in anybody's files in the Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.
Representative FORD. Will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, please?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was trying to.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth.
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.
Mr. McCLOY. The chronological report part of our record yet?
Mr. BELIN. We have a chronological report, yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?
Mr. RANKIN. We will check that.
Mr. DULLES. It is not yet an exhibit, is it?
Mr. RANKIN. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?
Mr. CURRY. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in this report. "Upon arrival,"--this is Chief Lumpkin--"Upon arrival at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"--which is about a half block from here--"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses."
Mr. DULLES. That is where the sheriff's office was?
Mr. CURRY. Main and Houston, it runs.
"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the search.
"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."
This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.
Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place?
Mr. CURRY. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building.
Mr. RANKIN. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.
Mr. CURRY. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there.
Mr. DULLES. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, I think you testified, in that neighborhood?
Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. After the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were.
Mr. DULLES. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be Sawyer?
Mr. RANKIN. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he would say about it you think would be correct?
Mr. CURRY. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came.
Representative FORD. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point?
Mr. RANKIN. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.
Representative FORD. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment.
Mr. RANKIN. We will do that then.
Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described?
Mr. CURRY. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.
Mr. DULLES. At about what time would you place that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned to the office.
Mr. DULLES. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love Field?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not positive.
When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?
Mr. CURRY. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?
Mr. CURRY. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to the place where he had stayed?
Mr. CURRY. I understood they had and I understood they went back the next day.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by a showup?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.
Mr. RANKIN. You have a room for this purpose?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we do.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe briefly what that room is like?
Mr. CURRY. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage.
Mr. RANKIN. How large is the room?
Mr. CURRY. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet wide.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?
Mr. CURRY. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day was that?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"
I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about that?
Mr. CURRY. I offered then at that time--they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection to anybody seeing him.
And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN. And this showup, how many people attended?
Mr. CURRY. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places.
Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything wrong with it."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.
The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. What is the fact in that regard?
Mr. CURRY. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course----
Mr. RANKIN. How many men would that be?
Mr. CURRY. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.
Mr. RANKIN. How large is your police force?
Mr. CURRY. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.
I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody?
Mr. CURRY. There is a time--there wasn't at this time.
Mr. RANKIN. Why not?
Mr. CURRY. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes.
But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my office.
Mr. DULLES. This was the evening of Friday, was it not?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you say Ruby was present that evening?
Mr. CURRY. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.
Mr. McCLOY. You said you first saw Ruby when?
Mr. CURRY. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.
Mr. DULLES. This is some time before the assassination?
Mr. McCLOY. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I understand it?
Mr. DULLES. You had not seen him before?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?
Mr. CURRY. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.
I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example.
Mr. RANKIN. We haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and then down Elm up to the time of the shots.
Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was--there was a pilot car ahead of us with Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.
He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you wish me to.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document----
Mr. REDLICH. It is in Commission Document 81.1.
Representative FORD. Will this report be made a part of the record?
Mr. RANKIN. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory handling of it?
Representative FORD. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point.
Mr. RANKIN. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.
Mr. DULLES. That would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.
Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be excluded unless you so report to the Commission.
Mr. RANKIN. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. And the reason therefor?
Mr. CURRY. This sketch.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 please, and 703?
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)
Mr. CURRY. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass.
Mr. RANKIN. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on Main Street?
Mr. CURRY. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel with Houston Street. And Main Street--now Houston Street runs in a north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. We had----
Mr. RANKIN. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down Main.
Mr. CURRY. We would--we left the parade route up to the host committee. They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held.
But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.
So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this place Elm Street is two-way.
So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing and going----
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the Secret Service.
They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him.
Mr. RANKIN. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you would go by the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. CURRY. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the cars of the----
Mr. McCLOY. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route decided on?
Mr. CURRY. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this chronological record.
Mr. DULLES. When was this route published?
Mr. McCLOY. That route was published.
Mr. CURRY. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.
Mr. RANKIN. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by Industrial Boulevard?
Mr. CURRY. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was more--a freer flow of traffic anyway.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route?
Mr. CURRY. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. What was that discussion?
Mr. CURRY. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say that would have been?
Mr. CURRY. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.
Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines to Industrial and Industrial into--but this would not have taken them through the downtown area.
Mr. RANKIN. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?
Mr. CURRY. This was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was taken.
They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their positions?
Mr. CURRY. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.
Mr. CURRY. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you?
Mr. CURRY. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN. You were driving your car?
Mr. CURRY. I was driving my car.
Mr. RANKIN. You had radio communication in that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.
Mr. CURRY. The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?
Mr. CURRY. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.
Mr. RANKIN. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.
Mr. RANKIN. It would be more than the height of a car?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; two heights.
Mr. RANKIN. Two heights.
Mr. CURRY. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.
Mr. RANKIN. Trucks could get under that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY. Then we heard this report.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?
Mr. CURRY. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.
Mr. RANKIN. How fast were you going then?
Mr. CURRY. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?
Mr. CURRY. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.
Mr. DULLES. Between your car and the President's car?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN. How many motorcycles did you have?
Mr. CURRY. I think we had four on each side of him.
Mr. RANKIN. How many did you want to have?
Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?
Mr. CURRY. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.
Mr. RANKIN. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Mr. Lawson.
Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you propose that to someone?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Who did you propose it to?
Mr. CURRY. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.
Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about that?
Mr. CURRY. They didn't want it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY. They said the Secret Service would be there.
Mr. RANKIN. And then?
Mr. CURRY. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.
It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.
Representative FORD. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.
Mr. CURRY. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.
Representative FORD. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they were in a car.
Representative FORD. How far away would they have been?
Mr. CURRY. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.
Representative FORD. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. And fill in what he did at that time?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.
Mr. DULLES. You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?
Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.
Mr. RANKIN. How many feet do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.
Mr. RANKIN. Then at the time of the third shot?
Mr. CURRY. A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?
Mr. CURRY. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear any more than three shots?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. CURRY. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?
Mr. McCLOY. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?
Mr. CURRY. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?
Mr. CURRY. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.
Mr. McCLOY. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.
Mr. McCLOY. How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?
Mr. CURRY. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.
Mr. McCLOY. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe it did; no, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Then----
Mr. CURRY. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.
Mr. McCLOY. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.
Mr. CURRY. It is over----
Mr. McCLOY. It is on the other side.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. You see these tracks.
Mr. RANKIN. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.
Mr. DULLES. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.
(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Do you call that the railroad yards?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is true.
Mr. McCLOY. Above the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?
Mr. CURRY. I would estimate maybe a half dozen.
Mr. DULLES. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize any officer amongst them?
Mr. CURRY. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.
Mr. McCLOY. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so.
Representative FORD. Do you know who the officer was?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.
There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. RANKIN. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.
Mr. CURRY. Really over.
Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the motorcade.
Representative FORD. Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?
Mr. CURRY. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.
Mr. RANKIN. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?
Mr. CURRY. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.
I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.
Representative FORD. But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir; yes, sir.
(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question?
As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?
Mr. CURRY. Not at all.
Mr. McCLOY. There was no movement or anything?
Mr. CURRY. Not at all.
Mr. McCLOY. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?
Mr. CURRY. Not at all.
Mr. McCLOY. You had Secret Service men in that car with you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?
Mr. CURRY. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.
Mr. DULLES. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?
Mr. CURRY. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?
Mr. CURRY. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building.
Mr. RANKIN. Who said that?
Mr. CURRY. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it the Secret Service people or your people?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.
Mr. RANKIN. Where were they located?
Mr. CURRY. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.
Mr. RANKIN. But you say in midblock?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.
Mr. RANKIN. Where would the downtown area be?
Mr. CURRY. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?
Mr. CURRY. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.
Mr. McCLOY. It was not unusual.
Representative FORD. In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?
Mr. CURRY. Are they shielded from----
Representative FORD. From the person who is brought up for identification?
Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.
For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.
Representative FORD. That was used in this case?
Mr. CURRY. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.
Representative FORD. Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?
Mr. CURRY. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.
Representative FORD. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?
Mr. CURRY. The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.
Representative FORD. Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?
Mr. CURRY. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.
Representative FORD. Did you say the actual process that was--that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?
Mr. CURRY. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.
Representative FORD. You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.
Mr. CURRY. There was--I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.
Representative FORD. Did you investigate that rumor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. What did you find out?
Mr. CURRY. I found he had not been mistreated.
Representative FORD. You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?
Mr. CURRY. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.
But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."
Representative FORD. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe I did, sir.
Representative FORD. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.
Representative FORD. But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.
Mr. CURRY. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.
Mr. RANKIN. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?
Mr. CURRY. The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?
Mr. CURRY. They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.
Mr. RANKIN. And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?
Mr. CURRY. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.
Mr. RANKIN. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, there were.
Mr. RANKIN. How were those handled, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?
Mr. CURRY. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Markham?
Mr. CURRY. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was Officer Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any of your officers were?
Mr. CURRY. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. DULLES. He would know about it?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he would, yes.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with your police force?
Mr. CURRY. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.
Mr. RANKIN. How long had he been with you?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man.
Mr. RANKIN. What was his rank?
Mr. CURRY. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him?
Mr. CURRY. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.
Mr. DULLES. Missed what?
Mr. CURRY. Missed court.
Mr. RANKIN. He had been unable to testify or something?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the penalty that was imposed?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated.
Mr. RANKIN. That was the only disciplinary action against him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it.
Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force.
Mr. DULLES. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of that is. Do you know anything about that at all?
Mr. CURRY. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.
Representative FORD. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity?
Mr. CURRY. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics.
Representative FORD. But your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty.
Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby--well Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.
Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just automatic patrol policy.
On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, were 78 or 81.
Mr. BALL. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for Tippit to come in there.
Mr. CURRY. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by description?
Mr. CURRY. Of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES. I see, description of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What are you reading from, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, as recorded on November 22.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that from Commission Document 728?
Mr. DULLES. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?
Mr. CURRY. It was a description of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't know it was Oswald?
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is?
Mr. CURRY. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description at this time."
This was at 12:45 p.m.
Mr. RANKIN. What channel are you talking about?
Mr. CURRY. Channel 1.
Mr. RANKIN. You had more than one channel?
Mr. CURRY. Two channels.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a shooting under our code involving the President.
Representative FORD. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed to switch over to channel 2.
Mr. DULLES. He did have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.
Representative FORD. By he who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name but it would be on our records.
Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak Cliff area."
Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred.
Representative FORD. Shooting of Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure--a little later on here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred.
Mr. McCLOY. This is Tippit's reply going in?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. The next sentence also says something, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he reply to that?
Mr. CURRY. He said "10-4".
Mr. RANKIN. What does that mean?
Mr. CURRY. It means message received.
Mr. RANKIN. Doesn't that mean approval?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. These are transcriptions of communications back and forth?
Mr. CURRY. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there a tape recorder on that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.
Mr. McCLOY. Was this description of the suspect the first description that went out?
Mr. CURRY. As far as I know, it is.
Mr. DULLES. That was at 12:45, as I recall.
Mr. CURRY. Approximately, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?
Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people?
Mr. CURRY. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this more than usual?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been the detective out with the witnesses.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with all this crowd?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news media.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as well as----
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about it?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then?
Mr. CURRY. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?
Mr. CURRY. Not at the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some decision about moving him?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by file on a person?
Mr. CURRY. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us.
Mr. RANKIN. A criminal complaint?
Mr. CURRY. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial.
Mr. RANKIN. That is a regular practice?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning.
Mr. RANKIN. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility?
Mr. CURRY. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.
Mr. RANKIN. Who decides which way you will do it?
Mr. CURRY. It is left up to the bureau commander.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the bureau commander?
Mr. CURRY. That is handling the case.
Mr. RANKIN. Who would that be in this case?
Mr. CURRY. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it come to your attention this time?
Mr. CURRY. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and I said, "I don't know."
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "early Friday morning?"
Mr. CURRY. I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early Saturday morning.
Representative FORD. Where do you actually do this filing?
Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. Who do you mean by we?
Mr. CURRY. When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case.
Mr. RANKIN. I see.
Representative FORD. What evidence did you have at that point?
Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy."
He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.
Representative FORD. At that time you had the rifle, did you not?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know, sir.
Representative FORD. It was reported that the original identification was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue?
Mr. CURRY. I wouldn't know, sir.
Representative FORD. You don't know?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know.
Representative FORD. Do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't know that.
Mr. McCLOY. As far as I know there was no police report that it was a 7.65 rifle.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know of any police records of your police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly involved in the assassination was a Mauser rifle?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Representative FORD. All of your records show affirmatively it was the Italian rifle?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. That is correct.
Mr. McCLOY. While we are waiting for Mr. Rankin to continue his examination, let me ask you this question, Chief.
Did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Never.
Mr. McCLOY. Didn't hear that he had been--there was a defector named Oswald in the city of Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Never heard of his name?
Mr. CURRY. We didn't have it in our files.
Representative FORD. Was there anything in your files that Lee Harvey Oswald had been involved with the Dallas police force?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Representative FORD. No record whatsoever?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any record of his having made a trip to the Soviet Union and returned?
Mr. CURRY. Not in our files.
Mr. DULLES. And returned to Texas?
Mr. CURRY. We didn't have anything in our files regarding Lee Harvey Oswald.
Senator COOPER. Could I follow up on that, did you have any record of any individuals, persons, in Dallas, or the area, who because of any threats of violence against the President or any Communist background required you to take any special security measures?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, there are some groups in Dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing and extreme leftwing groups. We try to keep track of these people and what their plans are. We have been able to infiltrate most of their organizations.
Senator COOPER. Now prior to the President's visit, did you take any--did the Dallas Police force take any special security measures about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups under surveillance. We had prior to this visit, we had some information brought to us, I don't know who brought it to us, that there was a man in Sherman or Denison, who said that he is going to see that the President was embarrassed when he came to Dallas.
Senator COOPER. Who was that man, do you know?
Mr. DULLES. We have a Secret Service report, I believe with regard to this case. Here is one from the chief of police of Denton, Tex.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; we had some information that the students at North Texas were planning some demonstrations.
Senator COOPER. My question is, did your police force take any special security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of violence against the President?
Mr. CURRY. Not at this particular time, because we had reports from the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups that they were not planning to do anything on the day the President was there. We knew that General Walker was out of the city, and we knew that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations.
Senator COOPER. When you say planning, you are not limiting it to any violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; demonstrations.
Senator COOPER. I want to come back to that point later, but I want to ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had any knowledge of the presence of Oswald in Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I have asked my criminal intelligence section, which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this.
Senator COOPER. Had anyone informed you that he was working in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Had he ever tangled with the Dallas Police in any respect of which there is any record?
Mr. CURRY. We have no record at all of him.
Representative FORD. Did the Secret Service people inquire of you as to your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated?
Mr. CURRY. I don't remember them specifically asking me what were these groups planning to do.
Representative FORD. Did you volunteer any information on it?
Mr. CURRY. I think perhaps we told them what we had done. They were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various organizations, and I know we sent Lieutenant Revill and a couple of his men up to Denison, or Denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly said they were going to embarrass the President and had made some remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "I won't even be in Dallas. I was just popping off. I will assure you I am not even going to be down there. I don't want any part of it."
Then some of the study group in North Texas, we had an informant in this group, and they had decided they would be in Dallas with some placards to express opinions about the President or some of his views. Some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were afraid that the people were going to harm them. They were down around the Trade Mart with some placards.
Senator COOPER. I have a couple of more questions.
Do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the Dallas paper?
Mr. CURRY. I saw it; yes.
Senator COOPER. Directed against the President of the United States?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Senator COOPER. What date did you give that statement in making any kind of preparations for his visit?
Mr. CURRY. In the first place, I didn't think it was very appropriate, it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of the President, but we were doing everything that I knew we could do to protect him. I will never forget that as we turned to go down toward that underpass the remark was made, "We have almost got it made," and I was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out to the Trade Mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up for him.
Senator COOPER. Since the assassination, have you had any actual factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate that any person other than Oswald was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. DULLES. Was any investigation made of, I believe it was Weissman, or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which Senator Cooper referred, was any particular investigation made?
Mr. CURRY. Not any investigation by us.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. McCLOY. I have one question.
Did you since the assassination or before have any information or any credible information which would indicate that there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; we were not able to establish any connection between them.
Mr. McCLOY. You made a thorough investigation of that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an association between them, and we were not able to connect the two.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you intend to ask the chief about the General Walker episode?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; and also about the Ruby episode.
Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have at the moment.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief, I put in front of you there as Exhibit 705, now marked as "Exhibit 705," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the President? Is that on your page 6 or thereabouts?
Mr. CURRY. The pages--yes, it is page 6, channel 1.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made?
Mr. CURRY. This shows at the end the broadcast to be 12:45 p.m. It would be on November 22d.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer Exhibit 705 being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importance of the time and the description and all, I think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it.
Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted as Commission's Exhibit No. 705.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 705, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you read to the Commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. The broadcast reads as follows: "Attention all squads. Attention all squads. At Elm and Houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10 inches, 165 pounds. Reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle.
"Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a .30-.30 rifle. No further description or information at this time. KKB there 64 Dallas, and the time given as 12:45 p.m."
Mr. RANKIN. You have described Officer Tippit's number?
Mr. CURRY. District 78.
Mr. RANKIN. And that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central Oak Cliff area?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And what time is that message recorded?
Mr. CURRY. Immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads 87 and 78, EBG 78.
Mr. RANKIN. What time?
Mr. CURRY. The time is given as 12:46.
Mr. RANKIN. What does it say?
Mr. CURRY. The dispatcher asked him "87 and 78" or instructed him "Move into the central Oak Cliff area."
Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond to that?
Mr. CURRY. A little later he did.
Mr. RANKIN. When?
Mr. CURRY. We have--he was asked his location, would be about 1 o'clock.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say what it was?
Mr. CURRY. He didn't come back in at that time. At 1:08 p.m. they called him again.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he respond?
Mr. CURRY. It is at 12:54. The dispatcher said "78" and he responded, he said, "You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?"
Seventy-eight responded and said, "Lancaster and 8," which would be in the central section of Oak Cliff.
The dispatcher said, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in."
And he responded, "10-4," which means message received. And he would follow those instructions.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. We have apparently--a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "Somebody shot a police officer at 404 10th Street." Someone in the background said 78, squad 78, car No. 10. And the citizen said, "You get that?" and the dispatcher said, "78."
And there was no response and the citizen said, "Hello, police operator, did you get that?" Some other unknown voice came in and said, "510 East Jefferson."
Mr. RANKIN. What time of the day?
Mr. CURRY. This was about 1:15; 1:19 is the next time that shows up on the radio log. The dispatcher at 1:19 said, "The subject is running west on Jefferson from the location."
Citizen came back in on the radio and said, "From out here on 10th street, 500 block, the police officer just shot, I think he is dead." Dispatcher said, "10-4, we have the information."
The citizen using the radio remained off the radio.
Dispatcher to 15, he was the sergeant, said, "Did you receive the information of police officer shot?"
And he said, "10-4, but didn't that citizen say first he was on Jefferson and 10th and then Chesapeake?"
And he said, "Yes."
And he said, "Do they relate?"
And he said, "Yes, at Denver, 19 will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant.
Ninety-one came on and said, "Have a signal 19 involving a police officer at 400 block East 10th. The suspect last seen running west on Jefferson, no description at this time."
The dispatcher came in and said, "The suspect just passed 401 East Jefferson."
Dispatcher then says, "Give us the correct location on it, 85, we have three different locations."
Eighty-five says, "I haven't seen anything on Jefferson yet, 10-4, check, 491 East 10th at Denver."
Dispatcher repeated, "The subject has just passed 401 East Jefferson."
At 1:22 we have a broadcast here that says, "We have a description on the suspect here on Jefferson, last seen on the 300 block on East Jefferson, a white male, 30, about 5 feet 8, black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. Repeat the description."
Dispatcher said that to the squad. He says. "Wearing a white jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. What is his direction of travel on Jefferson?"
He said, "Travel west on Jefferson, last seen in the 401 West Jefferson, correction, it will be East Jefferson."
The dispatcher then said, "Pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately 30, 5 feet 8, slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. Suspect has been seen running west on Jefferson from the 400 block of East Jefferson at 1:24."
Then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about--the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on West Davis driving a white Pontiac, a 1961 or 1962 station wagon with a prefix PE, saying he had a rifle laying in the street.
We have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction.
The dispatcher said, "Any unit near Gaston 3600 block, this is about a blood bank."
Then 279 comes in and says, "We believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at 400 block West, Jefferson across from Dudley House. He had a white jacket we believe this is it."
"You do not have a suspect, is that correct?"
"No, just the jacket lying on the ground."
There is some more conversation about blood going to Parkland.
"What was the description beside the white jacket?"
"White male, 30, 5-8 black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on Jefferson from the 300 block."
Squad says, "This is Sergeant Jerry Hill." Says, "I am at 12th and Beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets one."
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, we were furnished a Commission Document No. 290, dated December 5, 1963, that purported to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to Officer Tippit to go to the Central Oak Cliff area.
Do you know why that would be true?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything off of them, channel 1 and channel 2 is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these.
This would be available and I listened to our recording.
Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 705 you are talking about?
Mr. CURRY. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. So if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that Exhibit 705 is correct?
Mr. CURRY. Is the correct exhibit; yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Commission Document No. 290 does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity.
Would that be any explanation?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it could be, yes. Because these would have been routine broadcasts. The fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district.
Mr. RANKIN. You were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of Lee Oswald to the jail from your place on Saturday?
Mr. CURRY. To the county jail?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
I asked Captain Fritz a time or two when he wanted to move Oswald, because this is left up to him. Whoever will be handling the case, I mean I don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. I don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred.
Mr. RANKIN. Why is that?
Mr. CURRY. It is just a routine matter.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN. Are there a number each day?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to 15 a day.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you talk to Officer or Captain Fritz about this?
Mr. CURRY. I think I talked to him some on Saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him?
Mr. RANKIN. That would be November 23?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; and I said this I don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. When they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when Sheriff Decker said, "We want the man."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with his transfer then?
Mr. CURRY. Other than to, I called Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning and he said, I told him and I think he had talked to Fritz prior to that time, too, and he told Fritz, he says, "Don't bring him down here until I get some security set up for him."
So, Sunday morning I talked to Sheriff Decker.
Mr. RANKIN. Why didn't you do it at night?
Mr. CURRY. This is not customary to transfer prisoners at night.
Mr. RANKIN. Why?
Mr. CURRY. Well, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again the prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, I believe it was perhaps Lieutenant Swain, it is in the record somewhere said something about, "Do you think we ought to move him at night?"
And Captain Fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he said, "If anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately get out of sight, and if anything is going to happen we want to know where we can see and see what is happening."
Mr. RANKIN. Were you fearful something might happen?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't know. I thought it could happen because of a feeling of a great number of people. But I certainly didn't think anything to happen in city hall. I thought that if anything did happen to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county jail.
Mr. RANKIN. What precautions did you take?
Mr. CURRY. The precautions that were taken, when I came in on Sunday morning, now Captain Fritz, I had talked to him on Saturday night or Saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready to transfer him by 10 o'clock the next morning, that would be Sunday morning.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell that to the media?
Mr. CURRY. I told them at some time after that. Several of them asked me when are you going to transfer him, and I said, I don't know.
They said, "Are you going to transfer him tonight," and I said, "No, we are not going to transfer him tonight." I said, "We are tired. We are going home and get some rest."
Something was said about well, we are tired, too. When should we come back, and I think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, that I told them if you are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning, I don't think that you would miss anything you want to see.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then about precautions?
Mr. CURRY. The next morning when I came in, that would be about 8:30, 8:45, I think, parked in the basement of city hall, I started up to the elevator and I noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway down in the basement and I told Lieutenant Wiggins who is in the jail office, I said, "These things will have to be moved out of here, and I also told Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson, Assistant Chief Batchelor, and Assistant Chief in Charge of Investigations Stevenson who came down in the basement at the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Those were TV cameras?
Mr. CURRY. That was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail office. I told them they were--would have to move those out of there. This was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from Main Street and goes out on Commerce Street, and then there is a parking area east of this.
I told Lieutenant Wiggins who was there, I said, "Now, move these squad cars," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over behind these railings, back over in the basement here."
Then that is all I did at that time. I saw that they were setting up some security. A little while later Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went downstairs and found Captain Talbert who was the platoon commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the basement and not let anybody in here, I think the depositions will show that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had proper credentials.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the various entrances, was anything done about that?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the cars come in.
Mr. RANKIN. What was done about that?
Mr. CURRY. Every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that had proper credentials.
Mr. RANKIN. What entrances are there to the basement?
Mr. CURRY. This is a Main Street entrance for vehicles, that would be on the north side of the building. There is a Commerce Street exit which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. Then there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that come down to the basement level. There are also, there is also an opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the maintenance men have their offices.
(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN. And each one of those was guarded?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Throughout the time?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What other precautions were made?
Mr. CURRY. There were a great number of police reservists and detectives and uniformed officers, I think there was a total, I believe of about 74 men in this area between the jail office and the immediate area where he would be loaded.
Mr. RANKIN. How large an area was that?
Mr. CURRY. Well, where he would be brought out of the jail office to put him in this car, would be, I would say, 16 or 20 feet, and then this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps 150 feet deep.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there cars in the parking area?
Mr. CURRY. Some cars were there. They had been searched out, all of them. All of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place where a person could conceal himself had been searched out.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there a plan for an armored car?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened about that?
Mr. CURRY. After they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking with Captain Fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility and I don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and I was willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like I say, nearly 40 years, and he said, "Chief, I would prefer not to use that armored car, I don't know who the driver is. It is awkward to handle and if anybody tries to do anything to us, I am afraid we would be surrounded. I would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my men following him, and get in and just take him right down Main Street and slip him into the jail."
So I said, "It will be all right with me if you want to do it that way but let's not say anything about this."
Mr. RANKIN. Now the armored car was not a Dallas police car, was it?
Mr. CURRY. No; it was not.
Mr. RANKIN. It was one you were arranging to get from----
Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Mr. Sherrell, who was the manager of the Armored Motor Service there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. And they would furnish a driver with it?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What else was done, if anything?
Mr. CURRY. We went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on Commerce Street, north to Elm Street, west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and then back south on Houston to the rear entrance of the county jail.
Mr. RANKIN. How many officers would be involved in the transfer?
Mr. CURRY. In the actual transfer, I would think perhaps 15 or 18 besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown.
Mr. RANKIN. How far would it be from your police department to the county jail?
Mr. CURRY. I would say 12-15 blocks.
Mr. RANKIN. Were there any other precautions you haven't described?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; that is about all I know of, except that Captain Fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his detectives. This is not unusual. He has transferred many, many prisoners, especially where there is--it is an unusual case involving more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners.
But, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick up and go with them or get into a car van with these two.
They would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs when they saw him come out. They would see he was placed in a car instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go over the predetermined route, but that Captain Fritz, when he got to Main Street, as you go east on Commerce and turned north to go to Elm Street, that is the second street over, when he got to Main Street they would make a left turn and go right down Main Street to the county jail, and they would turn right on Houston Street and the lead car would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would be closed and the prisoner would be transferred.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened to these TV cameras that you told them to get out of there?
Mr. CURRY. They moved them back somewhere. I don't know where they moved them but it was away from there.
Mr. RANKIN. Weren't their cameras right there at the time of the shooting?
Mr. CURRY. There were some cameras immediately over, TV cameras, I think over where I had told them to place them earlier that morning. I understood when Chief Batchelor went downstairs and I think Captain Jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and Captain Jones, I believe, asked Chief Batchelor if these should not be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the basement. When they were removed out into the basement instead of them being placed outside of the railing--now this is a decision made by Chief Batchelor, I suppose, because he said put them in the driveway up to the north. Now this is from where Ruby came. So apparently this afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined that he came down this Main Street ramp.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you determine that?
Mr. CURRY. We interrograted every man that was assigned in the basement. Also every witness who was around there that we could find that knew anything about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone see him come in on that ramp?
Mr. CURRY. There was a former police officer who told us he saw him go down that ramp, a Negro former police officer.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe his name was Daniels. I think perhaps you have a statement from him, don't you?
Mr. RANKIN. Is he the only one who saw him come in down there?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Now with these TV cameras down there how would your ruse work about having the armored car go ahead and Oswald climb into Captain Fritz' car? Wouldn't that all be shown on TV?
Mr. CURRY. If it was. We didn't think there would be anybody downtown to be in a position to watching TV that quickly to do anything about it if they wanted to.
Mr. RANKIN. You thought about it though?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What happened? Were you down there at the time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would have been but I received a call from my mayor and as I was fixing to go downstairs and I wish that I had been downstairs because I don't know that I could have done anything but you always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done something.
But I was called to the telephone and while I was talking to the mayor, why I heard some noises from downstairs and I was up on the third floor, and I heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that Oswald had been shot.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn how the shooting occurred?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us?
Mr. CURRY. I was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a gun into his stomach and fired a shot.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who that was?
Mr. CURRY. I was told that the man was named Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. What else did you learn about it?
Mr. CURRY. Further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who talked to Ruby and talked to his attorney, I believe, were told that he came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of our officers, who was assigned there. Officer Vaughn, who was assigned to this location just prior to this transfer.
Mr. RANKIN. That is out on the street?
Mr. CURRY. Main Street side.
Mr. RANKIN. At the entrance?
Mr. CURRY. At the entrance to the basement ramp. He had been assigned there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper reporters or news media or police officers.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out what he did?
Mr. CURRY. We discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him and not use an armored car that Chief Stevenson had told Lieutenant Pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail."
Well, Lieutenant Pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got Sergeant Putnam and I don't recall the other sergeant, and because the ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to Commerce Street, it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went north on the ramp to Main Street which ordinarily would not be done, but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the ramp, our investigation showed that Officer Vaughn stepped from his assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about 10 or 12 feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car to get into the Main Street flow of traffic.
Now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it and according to what Ruby told some of my officers, I believe, whether you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that north ramp.
Mr. RANKIN. At that time?
Mr. CURRY. At that time.
Now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or news media and detectives, and as Oswald was brought out he sprang from behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun in Oswald's side and pulled the trigger.
This officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he didn't see anybody go in there.
Mr. RANKIN. By this officer, you mean Vaughn?
Mr. CURRY. Officer Vaughn. He did, I asked him myself or asked the investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test concerning this, just to verify his position in it, and he agreed to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that Ruby came in while he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door.
Now I am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as I have said previously, as head of the department, I have got to accept the responsibility for what goes on there.
But if Officer Vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, I don't believe that Ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall.
Mr. McCLOY. Unless he had credentials, media credentials?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct.
Mr. McCLOY. We haven't verified whether or not he did have anything?
Mr. CURRY. We haven't been able to verify that. There were none found on his person.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the police force were involved with Ruby in this shooting?
Mr. CURRY. We got reports and interrogated every officer who was there.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out?
Mr. CURRY. We didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or that had in any way assisted him in getting there. No one.
Mr. RANKIN. You are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying to have Oswald shot?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I certainly am.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any evidence that anyone else was involved with Ruby in trying to shoot Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. We made every effort we could in our investigation. We were not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and Ruby or Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone else was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?
Mr. CURRY. We attempted to. Every lead we came upon we followed it out to see whether or not we could make any connection between Ruby, Oswald, or any other group.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that Oswald had any support in the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. No; we did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discover any evidence that would prove Ruby was involved with any other person in the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. We were not able to determine any connection.
Mr. DULLES. I will just ask one question, if I may, here.
It was Officer Vaughn, I understand, who had the direct responsibility for checking the credentials.
Mr. CURRY. Of that door, of that particular door.
Mr. DULLES. That door. Is there any evidence that Officer Vaughn knew of Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did.
Mr. DULLES. Has that been looked into?
Mr. CURRY. He was asked that, and if I remember correctly in his deposition he didn't know him.
Mr. DULLES. He testified he didn't know him?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not confident of that, but they have had his deposition here, which I am sure would reveal that.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know----
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McCLOY. Do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on the police staff, that was particularly close to Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. McCLOY. I would want to go back for a little while on one thing.
How did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the event? Can you explain the circumstances under which----
Mr. CURRY. I am merely giving an opinion here.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. I think the reason it was when they found out at the Texas School Book Depository that this employee when they were checking employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting of the President and the fact that he was not present at this time.
Mr. McCLOY. Can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is----
Mr. BALL. Could I go off the record on it?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; other than, I am sure that someone put it over a police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it.
Mr. McCLOY. That is someone on the scene would presumably communicate with headquarters?
Mr. CURRY. With the dispatcher. He would rebroadcast it to all units.
Mr. McCLOY. And he would rebroadcast it to all the units?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You have given us, I think, an estimate or approximate estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew Ruby, and I believe it was about 25 out of the whole force.
Mr. CURRY. This is just--I mean this is not--I couldn't say this was a real accurate number, but I am just presuming from just talking to people in the department. I would say that certainly no more than 50 men knew anything about him at all.
Mr. DULLES. Have you made any effort to find out and run down these men that did know?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You have?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And how many have you actually discovered did know Ruby from that investigation?
Mr. CURRY. I don't have the exact number, but I am guessing it probably would be 25 or 30 men.
Mr. DULLES. Twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to their association with Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. That knew him in some capacity. That knew him in some capacity.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rankin, do we have depositions on this point?
Mr. RANKIN. We have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew about Jack Ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections.
Mr. DULLES. You mean all the police officers who were----
Mr. RANKIN. Who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any 1,200 men.
Mr. DULLES. Did you cover all those that were present that morning?
Mr. CURRY. I believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew Ruby to let us know about it. And then I think anyone that knew him, the names were turned over to those people here. We covered all that such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover--well, we covered something like a hundred out of 1,200.
We requested by departmental order any police officer who knew Jack Ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Of those interrogated that would probably include all of those present the day of the shooting of Oswald, the morning of the shooting of Oswald at the time of the transfer?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it would.
Mr. RANKIN. All that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, have been interrogated.
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. When Officer 78, that is Tippit was directed to the Oak Cliff area that was simply because the Oak Cliff area was sort of a center of activity at that point?
Mr. CURRY. At that time.
Mr. McCLOY. It wasn't--it wasn't because you were trying to or had any idea that the suspect might have been there?
Mr. CURRY. Not from the Presidential shooting, but we were sure that the suspect in the Officer Tippit shooting was in the central area.
Mr. McCLOY. But Tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to go out there?
Mr. CURRY. That was because some of the squad had been moved out of the Oak Cliff into the Dallas area. You see, this is across the river.
Mr. McCLOY. What is the Oak Cliff area?
Mr. RANKIN. I think that ought to be clarified. Chief Curry, wasn't your testimony that Tippit was in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then he was directed to move to the central Oak Cliff area?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as I understand it, was in the Oak Cliff area, isn't that right?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And is Oak Cliff a suburb or what is it?
Mr. CURRY. It is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. It used to be a separate municipality and some years ago----
Mr. RANKIN. Where does it lie?
Mr. CURRY. It lies west of Dallas proper and across the Trinity River and the only means of going to Oak Cliff, going to and from Oak Cliff is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between Oak Cliff and Dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the Oak Cliff area and to come over to the Elm and Houston area to assist in the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that wouldn't be so far removed from it.
Mr. DULLES. This direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; none at all.
Mr. DULLES. It was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the reassignment of squads?
Mr. CURRY. The reassignment of squads, that is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Because of the withdrawal of people of the Oak Cliff area into the Houston Street area?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct. So we pulled some of the squads further assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in.
Mr. McCLOY. That does clear it up.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure that you just spoke about?
Mr. CURRY. Normal procedure would be when we have a great number of squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to answer the call.
Ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting out of service, to go and rearrange squads.
In this particular instance, when he asked 81 and 78 if they were in central Oak Cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other squads had gone out of service.
Mr. RANKIN. You told us about your efforts to try to determine whether subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making trouble for a trip of the President were going to try to do anything. Would you tell us what you did about that in more detail?
Mr. CURRY. I gave you a copy of this, and I would like to read it for the record, if you would like me to.
Mr. RANKIN. We will offer that.
Mr. CURRY. All right.
This is a copy of a report submitted to me by Lieutenant Jack Revill, criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit No. 710 and ask you if that isn't a copy of what you are referring to.
Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is.
Mr. RANKIN. You won't have to read that. Chief, if you will just describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then I will offer that to show what it proves.
Mr. CURRY. In essence, this report says prior to the announcement of the President's visit, there were rumors he would visit Dallas and because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive groups.
Mr. RANKIN. How do they do that?
Mr. CURRY. They usually have an informant inside the organization. Sometimes it may be one of our own men.
Mr. RANKIN. I see.
That was with regard to the persons listed on that Exhibit 710?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any other efforts besides that?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; these are all that I know of except we did in one instance go to the cities outside of Dallas, towns outside of Dallas to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something to embarrass the President. These organizations are listed as the Ku Klux Klan, the Indignant White Citizens Council, National States Rights Party, the John Birch Society, Dallas White Citizens Council, Oak Cliff White Citizens Council, General Walker group, American Opinion Forum, Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship, Young Peoples Socialist League, Dallas Civil Liberties Union, Texas White Citizens Council, and Black Muslims.
Mr. RANKIN. I will hand you Exhibit 709 which you have furnished us this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit?
Mr. CURRY. This exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from Jack Revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section.
Mr. RANKIN. That is the same man who is referred to in Exhibit 710?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you get that information described in Exhibit 709?
Mr. CURRY. It was given to me on November 22d at 2:50 p.m., or shortly thereafter, but I mean the information came to him at that time, and he passed it on to me, later that day.
Mr. RANKIN. Would you tell us how you secured Exhibit 711?
Mr. CURRY. This is a report from Officer V. J. Brian, B-r-i-a-n, who is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present when Lieutenant Revill, when the information submitted was given to Lieutenant Revill.
Mr. RANKIN. I would like to offer Exhibits 709, 710, and 711.
Mr. DULLES. They will be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 709, 710, and 711 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I think we should have a recess now until 2 o'clock.
Mr. McCLOY. One more question.
Was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the apprehension of Oswald and his time set for his removal from police headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir. The only information I had was that the FBI, someone from the FBI passed the information to the city hall during the night that they had had a call that said, I believe the FBI sent this call, that there was a group of 100 who would take that prisoner away from us before he got to the county jail.
Mr. McCLOY. But this came from outside the jail?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; outside.
Mr. McCLOY. You never heard any threats uttered within the jail?
Mr. CURRY. No.
Mr. DULLES. Another general question: Have you any comments or anything you would like to say about the cooperation between the Dallas police, the Secret Service, and the FBI during this period immediately following, prior to and immediately following the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir. We have always had the best of cooperation between both of these Federal units, and all other units of the Federal and State government. I feel sure that they thought this information was important to us, they probably would have given it to us. But we certainly have not had any trouble with the FBI or with the Secret Service in any of our past associations.
Mr. DULLES. I was going a little further. I mean, was the cooperation whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as far as I could tell, it was.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any problem created because of the possible--not conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the Secret Service and the FBI?
Mr. CURRY. Prior to the President's visit, no; there was nothing there.
Mr. DULLES. Prior to or subsequent to?
Mr. CURRY. Now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of Dallas, and that we had prior, I mean we had jurisdiction over this. The FBI actually had no jurisdiction over it, the Secret Service actually had no jurisdiction over it. But in an effort to cooperate with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in Dallas, Tex., and would have to be tried in Dallas, Tex., and it was our responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence.
We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?"
But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us.
Mr. DULLES. An agent of the police force, you mean?
Mr. CURRY. An agent of the FBI.
Mr. DULLES. FBI?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to Washington with the evidence?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that work out all right so far?
Mr. CURRY. Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm.
Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in Washington, I guess.
Perhaps the Commission has it.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; the Commission is still working with it.
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; they did.
Mr. RANKIN. And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have?
Mr. CURRY. There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if this case is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see?
And that was our only concern.
We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any more questions?
Mr. McCLOY. Not at this stage.
Mr. RANKIN. Shall we convene at 2?
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any?
Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you.
(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY RESUMED
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. McCLOY. (presiding). We are ready.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the matters described in those letters?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to see them?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d----
Mr. RANKIN. Of what?
Mr. CURRY. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that information?
Mr. CURRY. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place.
Mr. RANKIN. That later report was as of April 20?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. 1964?
Mr. CURRY. The last report.
Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for that?
Mr. CURRY. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.
Mr. RANKIN. By they, who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation room.
Mr. RANKIN. By he there at that point who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but you say he knew.
Mr. CURRY. That Oswald knew Hosty.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife."
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?
Mr. CURRY. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was made, according to Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the Tippit killing?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you direct that that be done?
Mr. CURRY. Just through my staff.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that in writing?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. You just told them?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that direction promptly given?
Mr. CURRY. I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. I would say probably within the next day after we met and we decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any directions about furnishing information immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday, and we decided we should appoint an investigative group.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?
Mr. CURRY. That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. RANKIN. Who else?
Mr. CURRY. And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them.
I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also, in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of might be left out of the reports.
And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I believe they have some reports to that effect.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that a part of their responsibility to get those reports?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding this.
Mr. RANKIN. And you would expect the police officers to tell anything they knew at once?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know has all of that information been supplied to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know.
Mr. RANKIN. It has?
Mr. CURRY. So far as I know it has been supplied.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said, "Now Chief, I don't know that, they could--that I could testify to this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his cell"----
Mr. RANKIN. Whose cell?
Mr. CURRY. To Oswald's--I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and talked to him, told him who I was, and"----
Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present?
Mr. CURRY. There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a detective.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were they?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been made.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department couldn't do it."
I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know that I would be allowed to testify to this."
Mr. RANKIN. When did Sorrels first tell you that?
Mr. CURRY. This was the--it seems to me like several days after this occurred.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you report that to anyone?
Mr. CURRY. I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was--or perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information was relayed on to the investigating group.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they recorded it any place?
Mr. CURRY. No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they first gave you any information that they knew of any such conversation?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. If your records show that the first time any such information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964, would you think that was a correct record?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he had not warned him of his constitutional rights.
But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might be able to get that in his testimony on that basis."
Mr. RANKIN. You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who overheard it?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he was.
Mr. RANKIN. And who else?
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall now. It is in our reports.
Mr. RANKIN. Was the officer Archer?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Officer Archer was there.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it Officer Newcomb?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether they testified to something like that at the trial?
Mr. CURRY. I was not present during the trial but I understand they did testify.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not those officers made a report about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe they did.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI or anybody else?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. RANKIN. So if they did not include such information in any report or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it?
Mr. CURRY. That is correct, I do not know it.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this?
Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall the date.
Mr. CURRY. But it was--I don't recall the date but it was sometime after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it 1 day or 2 days?
Mr. CURRY. It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it a week later?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case.
"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just overheard the conversation."
Mr. McCLOY. This was a substantial period after the date?
Mr. CURRY. The assassination.
Mr. McCLOY. The date of the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this from Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it before or after Christmas?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure because I was not----
Mr. RANKIN. Where did the conversation occur?
Mr. CURRY. On the telephone.
Mr. RANKIN. Was anybody present?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr RANKIN. Did you make a written record of the information?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that time; that Oswald was--I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then made a report.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had told you?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he made any record of it?
Mr. CURRY. I doubt that he did.
Mr. RANKIN. You haven't tried to find out?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any practice in the police force about recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald and to the media--do you recall what you said about that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as Oswald's.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?
Mr. CURRY. Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, but I didn't tell them what it was.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had against Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so; I don't recall it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence?
Mr. CURRY. I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late evening.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police department to tell about the evidence that you had?
Mr. CURRY. It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you often do it then?
Mr. CURRY. Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might be--this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an unusual thing to say.
Mr. RANKIN. Someone from the police department often does it; is that right?
Mr. CURRY. Well, frequently, if they are asked about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom?
Mr. CURRY. Not by intercom. It would be--they are brought into--when a prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--I mean the visitor--on the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time?
Mr. CURRY. I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know of any that was done?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. RANKIN. In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required?
Mr. CURRY. Excuse me now; I am not an attorney.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of that court's business.
Mr. RANKIN. Your law----
Mr. CURRY. When they are in session.
Mr. RANKIN. Your law says he shall be brought immediately.
Mr. CURRY. Immediately, but it has been----
Mr. RANKIN. But in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice of----
Mr. CURRY. During the normal course of the court's business. This was actually unusual because this type of arraignment--because usually it would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever precautions we could to see that he was given his--we were not violating his civil rights. That is the reason that we did arraign him in the city hall. Ordinarily we would have taken him before a court.
Mr. RANKIN. I didn't understand you to say that the justice of the peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that.
Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. He read all this to him.
Mr. RANKIN. That is, he read the complaint to him?
Mr. CURRY. The complaint, and I don't recall what all he said to him.
Mr. RANKIN. So, according to the practice in Texas at the time that he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a little earlier?
Mr. CURRY. A little earlier, actually.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at any investigation or interrogation of Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that Oswald made that Hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of the mistreatment?
Mr. CURRY. I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, the impression that Fritz got.
Mr. McCLOY. When was that? Do you have any reason to know--Captain Fritz will perhaps tell us about it--as to when that interrogation of Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. I guess that is all, except the general question I have of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in getting at the facts?
Mr. CURRY. Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job.
After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him.
And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again--you would expect and want a very different change?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And eliminate the interference by the news media?
Mr. CURRY. That is right.
Mr. RANKIN. But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you changed your practices about the media at all?
Mr. CURRY. Not the ordinary cases; no.
Mr. RANKIN. And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. RANKIN. And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many?
Mr. CURRY. And a few is what made the difference in this.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "How did you do it?"
Mr. CURRY. They do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer.
Mr. RANKIN. That could be done today just the same?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls.
Mr. RANKIN. Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of course, I would exclude it.
Mr. RANKIN. And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to?
Mr. CURRY. I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but I could do it.
Mr. RANKIN. So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations?
Mr. CURRY. And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy?
Mr. CURRY. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. RANKIN. Those are all the questions.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have anything else.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help.
Mr. CURRY. Thank you for your consideration.
Mr. RANKIN. I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both inclusive.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 701 through 708 were received in evidence.)
TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ
Mr. McCLOY. You know the purpose of what we are here for, captain?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. McCLOY. We have a very broad mandate to look into all the circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in Dallas on November 22 last year, and thereafter.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand, sir.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. FRITZ. J. W. Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. FRITZ. I live in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you were born and what your education is and what your training has been as a police officer?
Mr. FRITZ. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N. Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department in January of 1921, and have been there ever since.
Mr. BALL. You started as a patrolman, did you, in the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman approximately 2 years, I am not sure of the exact time and I was then moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks there, up and down.
Mr. BALL. You are now a captain of police, are you?
Mr. FRITZ. Captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you held that office?
Mr. FRITZ. Since it was set up, I believe, in 1932 or 1933, I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. You have been head of homicide and robbery detail since 1932 or 1933?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. I have had other jobs, too. One time I had the whole CID; they didn't call it CID at that time; they called it detectives' office, but I kept the homicide and robbery under my supervision during that time. I later went back with the homicide and robbery, full time.
Mr. BALL. Is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and robbery?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we call it now the CID. It would be ordinarily called the detective division; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who is in charge of that?
Mr. FRITZ. Who is in charge of it?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Of course, we are all directly under the chief, and Chief Stevenson is the head of the CID, M. W. Stevenson.
Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in police schools or places like that?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, of course, I have had a good many years of experience, and I attempted, I still go to school to our police schools, and I now attend seminars at different places, Oklahoma University and Texas University and go to most any training school that is available.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was coming to Dallas?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did make preparation for that.
But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart.
Mr. BALL. Was most of your work out at the Trade Mart that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything was all right before the President got there. He would have been there in 10 more minutes.
Mr. BALL. Did you check the waiters who had been hired?
Mr. FRITZ. That wasn't my job.
Mr. BALL. Someone else did?
Mr. FRITZ. Someone else did; yes.
Mr. BALL. How many men did you have assigned?
Mr. FRITZ. Where?
Mr. BALL. With you at the Trade Mart.
Mr. FRITZ. Two.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. FRITZ. Detectives Sims and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. And they are both homicide?
Mr. FRITZ. Both homicide officers; yes. I had other officers assigned to different places. I had two of my officers assigned to ride in the car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with Chief Lumpkin. That was Senkel and Turner.
Mr. BALL. You were at the Trade Mart when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little notebook there.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have a notebook.
Mr. BALL. Did you make notes as of that time?
Mr. FRITZ. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the tragedy.
Mr. BALL. How long after?
Mr. FRITZ. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working on it ever since.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was that?
Mr. FRITZ. I had several officers assist me with this, and some secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T. L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like this.
Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is hard to say just who helped.
Mr. BALL. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you have with you, the book at which you are looking now?
Mr. FRITZ. This is the book I am talking about.
Mr. BALL. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general of Texas?
Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too.
Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you call that what?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy."
Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book.
Mr. BALL. An index.
Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book.
Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you heard the President had been shot?
Mr. FRITZ. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I could do.
Mr. BALL. You say you know he was shot at 12:35?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean that is the time you heard about it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we arrived and we checked----
Mr. BALL. What time did you hear about it?
Mr. FRITZ. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of it at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time.
Mr. BALL. When you heard of this what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr. Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a true call.
When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of the crime.
Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were there any officers there at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the front?
Mr. FRITZ. Several officers; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who they were?
Mr. FRITZ. I couldn't give you the name of all of them.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to this building?
Mr. FRITZ. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building, so we had our guns----
Mr. McCLOY. Thought who was in the building?
Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him.
Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. McCLOY. By all means.
Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.
Mr. BALL. What officer was that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.
Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?
Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.
Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.
Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.
Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?
Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.
Mr. BALL. Day?
Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to see whether he could.
Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?
Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to preserve that evidence and I went right ahead.
Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.
Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.
Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.
Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.
Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.
Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?
Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.
Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that?
Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man.
Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking for in the President's killing."
So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we didn't have so many witnesses.
Mr. BALL. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the names of the officers I sent to Irving.
Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.
Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers--you mean right at that time? I also sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this question.
Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.
Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there.
Mr. FRITZ. When I got there?
Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have--since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.
Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?
Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like and where it is located?
Mr. FRITZ. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9-1/2 feet by 14 feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one interrogation in back of the squadroom.
Mr. BALL. Your room opens onto----
Mr. FRITZ. A little hallway.
Mr. BALL. A little hallway?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, is it?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir? No, no, a little hallway in the office.
Mr. BALL. The main corridor on the third floor--your office does not open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it?
Mr. FRITZ. My own office?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; when I say my office, the homicide and robbery office, my office opens onto the main hallway.
But my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald being kept before you got there, what room was Oswald in?
Mr. FRITZ. When I got there he was in the front interrogation room at the end of the little hall.
Mr. BALL. Here is a map or a diagram drawn by Chief Curry. It is Commission Exhibit 701. Take a look at this, is that a diagram of the floor?
Mr. FRITZ. This would be my office right here.
Mr. BALL. That would be the entry to the homicide and robbery?
Mr. FRITZ. Homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr. BALL. This is your office?
Mr. FRITZ. My office opens right here.
Mr. BALL. Off of the hall?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Off the homicide and robbery?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. There is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if I correct it?
Mr. BALL. Go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the hall, isn't it?
Mr. FRITZ. You see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. Now, in coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the elevators, the elevators are right here.
Now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. Now then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right here.
Mr. BALL. You are adding to Chief Curry's map showing a little hallway?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. This is the lieutenant's office right here.
Mr. BALL. You are marking "Lieutenant's office."
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room right in here which comes clear across here.
Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks.
Mr. BALL. Where is the door to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Here is the door to my office right here.
Mr. BALL. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept.
Mr. FRITZ. In this little place right here.
Mr. BALL. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept.
Mr. FRITZ. At first?
Mr. BALL. At first.
Mr. FRITZ. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long.
Mr. BALL. That was only a few steps from your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the office.
Mr. BALL. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he was?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have that in time when he came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office over here.
Mr. BALL. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from X which is the conference room into your office.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him sitting in a chair, right here.
Mr. BALL. Right beside you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Don't you have a time marked in your report there?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.
Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?
Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.
Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.
Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.
Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?
Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.
Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.
Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there?
Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.
So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in?
Mr. FRITZ. I first asked him as I do of most people something about where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines.
And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.
Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.
Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico City?
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you." He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting, I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, "Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two different occasions."
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?
Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.
(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went out there and he said weekends.
I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?
Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.
Mr. BALL. What other name?
Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.
Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?
Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him.
Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him?
Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way.
Mr. BALL. How long did this first questioning take?
Mr. FRITZ. Of course, I talked to him several times during that afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and help some in getting the witnesses over there.
I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?
Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.
I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.
I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.
Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?
Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.
Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.
Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?
Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the exact time when he searched him.
Mr. BAIL. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; found a transfer.
Mr. BALL. And some bullets?
Mr. FRITZ. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges.
Mr. BALL. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about that.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask what kind of bullets these were?
Mr. FRITZ. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol.
Mr. McCLOY. Pistol?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, pistol cartridges.
Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick.
In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name?
Mr. FRITZ. I have her name here.
Mr. BALL. Was that Mrs. Markham?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Helen Markham.
Mr. BALL. That was the first showup, was it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. With her?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me what happened there?
Mr. FRITZ. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked him out and made the positive identification.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. FRITZ. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer.
Mr. BALL. Who did she point out?
Mr. FRITZ. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the visitors?
Mr. FRITZ. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup screen.
Mr. BALL. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; about that far.
Mr. BALL. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the showup with Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the jail office, a civilian employee as a third man.
Mr. BALL. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you think, these three people?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference. They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone else.
Mr. BALL. They were all handcuffed together, were they?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive about that.
Mr. BALL. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you question Oswald again?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Go directly from the showup room up there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that.
Mr. BALL. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that is about right?
Mr. FRITZ. I think that is about right.
Mr. BALL. All right, now how long after that would you say you went back to your office and talked to him again?
Mr. FRITZ. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something like that.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. FRITZ. Twenty minutes.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at this questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. This particular questioning?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I believe--I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr. Bookhout stayed and my officers were there.
Mr. BALL. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and what he did?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And was that the first----
Mr. FRITZ. That was the first time.
Mr. BALL. The first question--what did he tell you about that?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he worked at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you----
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him how he got his job down there, too.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe the records show something else but that is what he told me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle. I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Did you bring the rifle down to your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Not to him; not for him to see.
Mr. BALL. You never showed it to him?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there. You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any kind.
Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.
Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he say.
Mr. FRITZ. He denied it--that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."
Mr. BALL. Now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived at 1026 Beckley, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He didn't know whether it was north or south.
Mr. BALL. And you sent a group of officers out there to search that address?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BALL. Before you talked to him the second time you had talked to Potts on the telephone, had you not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. BALL. He told you what he had done?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I should have remembered that when I talked to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't there some conversation also about what his political beliefs were?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that is later. I asked him about his political beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for Cuba. He said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba organization. They had headquarters in New York, had an office in New Orleans.
At one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. I asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he said he belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union, and I asked him what dues he paid. He said, "$5 per month." I believe he said, or for a year. I am not positive about that. I would have to look at my notes.
Mr. BALL. Was that at the first or second questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. I think it was the second or third; that was later.
Mr. BALL. Later on?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I don't think I talked to him about his political beliefs until later.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time you talked to him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the first time. He asked about an attorney, and I told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it. I told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney he wanted. I told him, I said, we will do it. He said he wanted an attorney in New York. And he gave me his name, Mr. Abt, and he said that is who he wanted, and I told him he could have anyone he liked. He said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, and he said, "I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want."
He said, "If I can't get him then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to get me an attorney."
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about calling him on the telephone?
Mr. FRITZ. A little bit later.
Mr. BALL. Not that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Not that minute. A little bit later, he asked something else about an attorney and I said, "Did you call an attorney?" And he said, "You know I can't use the telephone." And I said, "Yes, you can; anybody can use a telephone." So, I told them to be sure to let him use a telephone and the next time I talked to him he thanked me for that, so I presume he called.
Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he called?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. BALL. When you say a little bit later, you mean another period of questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. Sometime during that talk.
Mr. BALL. You haven't identified these periods of questioning by time.
Mr. FRITZ. I can't identify them positively. I can do the best I can by memory, but I wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions by time because I might get them in the wrong question and in the wrong--time span.
Mr. BALL. At 6:30 you had another showup, at which time McWatters, Guinyard, and Callaway--do you remember those witnesses? Callaway is the car salesman, and Sam Guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at the corner of Patton and Jefferson, and McWatters is a cabdriver--no; is a busdriver.
Mr. FRITZ. We have the names; if those names are right, that is true. At that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup.
Mr. BALL. I point that time out as 6:30 because it appears that you started to question Oswald after you had the Markham showup sometime after 4:35, 4:40, 4:45. Did you question him steadily from then until 6:30, the time of the second showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't--I don't believe there was any time when I went through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them additional assignments.
Mr. BALL. Where did you keep him; in what room?
Mr. FRITZ. In my office there.
Mr. BALL. He was in your office all the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; within there.
Mr. BALL. Between the two showups at 4:35 and 6:30, he was in your office all the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I believe he was there all that time; let's see, 4:30 to 6:30; I don't remember him being carried out there any time.
Mr. BALL. Was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you or somebody else?
Mr. FRITZ. I doubt it, because I don't think those officers talked to him very much while I was out of the office, I think they might have asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much.
Mr. BALL. Were you present at the showup when Callaway and Guinyard and the busdriver were there?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that in your office at 6:37 there was an arraignment; do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I remember that arraignment.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell us what happened then? It doesn't show arraignments.
Mr. FRITZ. Do you show arraignment for 7:30?
Mr. BALL. No; 6:30. 7, you discussed, you met with Alexander, the district attorney's office, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. I probably did. I probably talked to him about the evidence.
Mr. BALL. He was arraigned at 7:10.
Mr. FRITZ. He was in our outer office most all the time and I talked to him two, three different times.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever take part in the questioning of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. What happened at 7:10?
Mr. FRITZ. 7:10 we had this arraignment with Judge David Johnston, and present. I was present, and Officers Sims, Boyd, Hall, and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my office.
Mr. BALL. How was the arraignment conducted?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a little bit.
Mr. BALL. What warning did he give him?
Mr. FRITZ. He advised him of his rights. I believe he had a form; I couldn't repeat it, of course, but I believe he had some forms that he went over with him.
Mr. BALL. What rights did he advise him of; do you know?
Mr. FRITZ. Of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind.
Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or three different occasions.
Mr. BALL. Did--you have a rule in Texas, do you, that whatever a witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he is warned?
Mr. FRITZ. We do have; yes, sir. We have to warn them before we can use the testimony. We have to warn them in the beginning before he is questioned.
Mr. BALL. Before he is questioned you must warn him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Before you questioned Oswald the first time, did you warn him?
Mr FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? What were the words you used?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord.
Mr. BILL. Did he reply to that?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. And once or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want to talk to his attorney, and I told him each time he didn't have to if he didn't want to. So, later he sometimes would start talking to me again.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when you warned him again?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I warned him two or three different times; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when those times were?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; but during the afternoon.
Mr. BALL. They were--you were more or less continuously questioning through the afternoon, were you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:10, he was arraigned in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. By arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't asked to plea.
Mr. FRITZ. Before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate.
Mr. BALL. It is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is it?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we don't.
Mr. BALL. All you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against him?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right, I am not a lawyer, you might feel--I don't want to leave a bad impression, I am just telling you what we do.
Mr. BALL. What the practice is in Texas.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any reply to Judge Johnston?
Mr. FRITZ. He said a lot of sarcastic things to him.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Irritable. I can't remember all the things that he said. He was that way at each arraignment. He said little sarcastic things, some of the things were a little impudent things.
Mr. BALL. After the arraignment, your records show that there was--he talked to an agent named Clements, do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that during one of the times when I was out, had to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, Mr. Clements asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal history.
Mr. BALL. Were you present at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. That was in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. In the office.
Mr. BALL. Who was there at the time?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. He was there, I know some of my officers were there, they had to watch him all the time.
Mr. BALL. Sims and Boyd?
Mr. FRITZ. If they weren't there, some homicide officers were.
Mr. BALL. You had two officers with him all times?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; sometimes three.
Mr. BALL. Always with him in the room?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time. They never questioned him but they stayed in the room.
Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50?
Mr. FRITZ. At what time?
Mr. BALL. 7:50, that is the third showup. Mrs. Davis----
Mr. FRITZ. That would be showup No. 3.
Mr. BALL. That is showup No. 3.
Mr. FRITZ. Showup No. 3 was held for Barbara Jean Davis.
Mr. BALL. And Virginia Davis.
Mr. FRITZ. Virginia Davis.
Mr. BALL. Were you there at the time of the showup?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I was there, Mr. Hall, Mr. Sims, Mr. Boyd, and Mr. Moore.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who chose the people for the showup there?
Mr. FRITZ. Who showed the people; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who chose the people. There is a Walter, Richard Walter Borchgardt.
Mr. FRITZ. Are those the people you mean for the showup?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't know who chose those people.
Mr. BALL. Don Braswell and John Abel.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that would be done by my officers.
Mr. BALL. And you don't think you were present at that?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him if he had kept a rifle in the garage at Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him and I asked him if he had brought one from New Orleans. He said he didn't.
Mr. BALL. He did not.
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
I told him the people at the Paine residence said he did have a rifle out there, and he kept it out there and he kept it wrapped in a blanket and he said that wasn't true.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember when that was that you asked him?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; during some of those questions.
Mr. BALL. It was after Stovall and Adamcik had come back?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe so.
Mr. BALL. Now, during the evening, did you question him some more?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am sure that I did. Let me see.
Mr. BALL. It shows he was fingerprinted at 8:55.
Mr. FRITZ. I probably talked to him a little bit more after that. It shows he was fingerprinted at what time?
Mr. BALL. 8:55. Or 9 o'clock, around 9 o'clock. Fingerprinted, at that time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe he was fingerprinted. I think we made the paraffin test in my office.
Mr. BALL. There was a paraffin test.
Mr. FRITZ. I allowed them to use any office right there to make a paraffin test.
Mr. BALL. And your records show he was fingerprinted there, too.
Mr. FRITZ. It is possible, I didn't stay there with him. He could have. I don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. I wouldn't see any need for it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk--you remember Wesley Frazier who came into the department and made a statement, do you, the boy who----
Mr. FRITZ. I think I remember some man. I believe that is his correct name, some man who came in with some story about seeing Oswald run from the building.
Mr. BALL. No.
Mr. FRITZ. That is not the one?
Mr. BALL. A boy who lived in Irving who drove Oswald weekends back and forth from Irving.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You remember you talked to him that night and he told about a package that Oswald carried into the Texas School Book Depository Building that morning.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what that was?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer.
Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning?
Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that question the last morning.
Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph test.
Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it.
No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them.
Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about curtain rods?
Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I told him someone had told me.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.
I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?" He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch."
Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was?
Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long.
Mr. BALL. Approximately how long?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right.
Mr. BALL. Later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, didn't you, when you had a press interview?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I didn't have a press conference.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you give any instructions to the press conference?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a press conference, and I told my officers to take them down and I asked the chief to let me put it on the stage. I was a little bit afraid something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the front, and I told him I would like to put him on the stage so that the officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but he said no, he wanted him in front, so I told the officers to take him down.
I went down later to see how everything was going but I couldn't get in. The crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what time you sent him up to the jail?
Mr. FRITZ. I have it here, I think--12:05; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. 12:05?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you a question?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Where was the--where did you first see the gun that was presumably used in the murder of Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. Of Tippit?
Mr. McCLOY. Tippit, yes; .38-caliber pistol.
Mr. FRITZ. The officers brought that in, you know, when they brought him in from the arrest at Oak Cliff.
Mr. McCLOY. And they had that, you had seen it at about the time you first saw Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, a few minutes later.
Mr. McCLOY. A few minutes later?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. It did show signs from your experience of having been recently fired?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. You know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that.
Mr. McCLOY. And this was new ammunition that he was using?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was using new ammunition.
Mr. McCLOY. Was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been unloaded. I understood it was fully loaded, but I didn't see it.
Mr. DULLES. That is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is that it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the people told us as he ran across the yard he was reloading the gun as he ran across the yard. Yes; the witnesses told us that.
Mr. McCLOY. If I can take you back a little further also.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the gun in the position, the rifle I am talking about now.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle in the position in which it was found?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. Where was it found?
Mr. FRITZ. It was found back near the stairway in a little--some boxes were stacked about this far apart, about that far apart. The rifle was down on the floor and partially under these boxes back near the stairway in the corner of the building.
Mr. McCLOY. This was on the sixth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. Sixth floor; yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Nobody had touched it by the time you saw it?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; nobody touched it. They called me as soon as they saw it and I went back there and I saw it.
Mr. McCLOY. Then you say the rifle was then dusted?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Does that mean the laboratory people had already come there then?
Mr. FRITZ. He came down from where he had been; he was on the same floor checking the empty cartridges, and he came back.
Mr. McCLOY. Oh, yes.
Mr. FRITZ. To the back, when I called him, and he came back there and checked the rifle; yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went up to the sixth floor from which Oswald apparently had fired these shots, what did it look like there, what was the--how were things arranged there? Was there anything in the nature of a gun rest there or anything that could be used as a gun rest?
Mr. FRITZ. You mean up in the corner where he shot from, from the window?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and I believe one box, one small box I believe was in the window, and another box was on the floor. There were some boxes stacked to his right that more or less blinded him from the rest of the floor. If anyone else had been on the floor I doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anything other----
Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day, of course, made a detailed description of all of that and he can give it to you much better than I can.
Mr. McCLOY. He is going to be here?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.
Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.
Mr. BALL. Here is a picture of Commission Exhibit 514.
Mr. FRITZ. That is the--do I have it turned around?
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize it?
Mr. FRITZ. That is it.
Mr. BALL. Is that the scene that was photographed by the crime lab group?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. But there is one thing that this picture is a little bit deceiving in one way. This picture is taken with a man standing, no doubt, on boxes up high like this, standing down level on the floor. This gun was partially under the end of those boxes right there. You see the camera evidently took a picture under like that, and he got a little more gun than you would see if you were standing on the floor.
Mr. BALL. I want to ask you about a showup.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Callaway and Guinyard and McWatters. You did you say you were present at that showup? That is No. 2.
Mr. FRITZ. No. 2 showup. I show there Leavelle, Brown, and Dougherty. It doesn't show that I was at that showup.
Mr. BALL. You were at that showup?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it doesn't show.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Callaway before he went to the showup?
Mr. FRITZ. Callaway--I will have to look there to see. Can you tell me something about what he has testified?
Mr. BALL. Callaway is a tall blond man, he was a used car salesman, used carlot on the corner of Patton and Jefferson.
Mr. FRITZ. I believe Officer Leavelle talked to him. Any of these witnesses when I say I didn't talk to them, that doesn't mean I didn't go out and say something to them but I didn't question them.
Mr. BALL. Did you say to anyone of these witnesses, "We think we have got the man that killed Tippit and he is probably the man who killed the President"? Anything like that?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember saying anything like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you say, "I want you to look at him good because we want to make the identification."
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no. We didn't need to. The first witness that went down with me convinced me on the Tippit killing.
Mr. McCLOY. That is Mrs. Markham?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Helen Markham. And she was a real good witness and she identified him positively and picked him out in a manner that you could tell she was honest in her identification.
Mr. BALL. We came up to the time you got him in jail that is at 12:05.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you through with him at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him again?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not?
Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment.
Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. in your records.
Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right.
Mr. BALL. 1:35?
Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35.
Mr. BALL. That was where?
Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name.
I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, but I believe he might have.
Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at 1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment.
Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there.
Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out.
Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?
Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or something.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them.
Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. Did he say----
Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.
Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?
Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.
Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning or the next day you questioned him again, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, that would be on the 23d.
Mr. BALL. You had another showup on the 23d in the afternoon, but apparently that morning before the showup you talked to him in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What do your records show as to the first time you talked to him on November 23?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see.
Mr. BALL. I believe if you will look on page 6 of 137B of your formal report that will refresh your memory.
Mr. FRITZ. Which part of this do you want now?
Mr. BALL. I want to know what time you started to question him on November 23.
Mr. FRITZ. I think I can get that time out of the little book.
Mr. BALL. If you look at the top of page 6 there.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't have it.
Mr. BALL. Do you have 137B?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I have it. I show 10:25 a.m.
Mr. BALL. 10:35?
Mr. FRITZ. 10:25.
Mr. BALL. 10:25 a.m.?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at this time? Still--look at your notes there.
Mr. FRITZ. I show here Jim Bookhout, Forrest Sorrels, special agent in charge of Secret Service. Robert Nash, who is U.S. marshal there in Dallas, and an officer besides myself.
Mr. BALL. What officer beside yourself?
Mr. FRITZ. I have that in here.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what you talked about this morning on the 23d? You called him down there for a certain purpose, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if this is the morning of the 24th, is it--is this the 23d or 24th?
Mr. BALL. This is Saturday morning, the 23d.
Mr. FRITZ. Saturday morning.
Mr. BALL. You learned certain things from your investigation of the day before, hadn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. One of them was you found he had a transfer, didn't you, in his pocket when he was arrested?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I sure talked to him about the transfers.
Mr. BALL. All right. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He admitted the transfer.
Mr. BALL. I don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. I want you to tell me what he said about the transfer.
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. But he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on North Beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab.
So, when I asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. He said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and I asked him some other questions about the cab and I asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab.
I asked him how much the cabfare was, he said 85 cents.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he went directly to his home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he went straight home.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you learn from the cabdriver that he hadn't taken him to 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. I knew he had taken him near there but I am telling you what he told me, he told me he had taken him home.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had gone directly home?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Then you found out the day before about the Wesley Frazier package, hadn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I found out about the package from Irving.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And also that he usually went home on Friday night and this time he went home on Thursday night.
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him why he had changed nights.
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FRITZ. And let me see what he told me about why he had changed. The man I talked to told me he usually went out on weekends, on Friday, so I believe he told me, I am not positive why he told me why he went home on this different night but I think he told me because someone else was going to be over there on weekends or something to that effect.
I can look right here and see what he told me.
Mr. BALL. All right, look and see. You also asked him that day about the curtain rods, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you asked him about that the night before, do you know or was this the first time you talked to him about it?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I asked him the night before, I am sure I did not. I am sure I did not ask him the night before. I remember I was pretty hesitant about asking him about them at all because I told you I didn't want to tell him--I didn't want him to tell me about curtain rods until I found out a little more about them.
Mr. BALL. But you asked him about them this morning?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he denied having curtain rods or any package other than his lunch.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you also ask him what he had done when he went home, what, when he went to 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. FRITZ. When he went to Beckley?
Mr. BALL. What he did.
Mr. FRITZ. What he did when he went on North Beckley?
Mr. BALL. After the cab ride, what he had done.
Mr. FRITZ. This time he told me a different story about changing the clothing. He told me this time that he had changed his trousers and shirt and I asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, I believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, I believe he said he put a shirt in a drawer.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL. He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL. With whom?
Mr. FRITZ. With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones. I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL. But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ. Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.
Mr. BALL. That same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, didn't you ask him if he belonged to the Communist Party?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him if he belonged to the Communist Party.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not. He said he never had a card. He told me again that he did belong to the Fair Play for Cuba organization, that he was in favor of the Castro revolution and I don't remember what else he might have told me.
Mr. BALL. What about the pistol that he had on him when he was arrested, did you question him about that this morning?
Mr. FRITZ. That morning?
Mr. BALL. Your notes show that you did.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him about the pistol and asked him where he got it.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he had got it about 6 or 7 months before in Fort Worth but he wouldn't tell me where he got it. When I asked him a little further about that he told me he didn't want to talk any further about the pistol.
Mr. BALL. Did the FBI, did any FBI agent question him that morning?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; Mr. Bookhout asked a few questions along, I don't remember just exactly what they asked, but he asked him a few questions.
Mr. BALL. Was there any further questioning about an attorney, whether or not he wanted a lawyer and who he wanted?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there probably was because I talked to him about a lawyer a number of times and he said he didn't want the local attorneys, some attorney had been up to see him after one of these questionings, and he said he didn't want him at all. He wanted Mr. Abt. And he couldn't get him and I told you about the ones there in the American Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you at one time he didn't want to answer any questions until he talked to his lawyer?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me that two or three times.
Mr. BALL. This morning he told you that, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. He probably did.
Mr. BALL. Look on your notes there on the page 137D and see whether or not that refreshes your memory? (Commission Document 81B.)
Mr. FRITZ. 137G?
Mr. BALL. 137D.
Mr. FRITZ. I told him--you know he had told me he could not use the telephone because he didn't have the money to pay for a call. I told him he could call collect from the jail to call anyone he wanted to, and I believe at that time he probably thanked me for that.
But I told him that we allowed all prisoners to do that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he didn't have money enough?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that but as I said I told him he didn't need the money, he could call him collect, and use the jail phone, telephone.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. That seemed to please him all right, because he evidently did because the next time I saw him he thanked me for letting him use the phone, but I told him it wasn't a favor; everyone could do that.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know who he called?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I wasn't there.
Mr. DULLES. Is there any record?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe there would be. I think you give him the use of the telephone and they could call when they wanted to. He could have called half a dozen people if he wanted to.
Mr. DULLES. He couldn't make a long distance call, could he? I suppose he could if he called collect.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service present at this time, this morning?
Mr. FRITZ. He was there most of the time after the 22d. He wasn't there on the 22d.
Mr. BALL. This is the morning of the 23d we are talking about.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was there, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him what he thought of President Kennedy or his family?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him what he thought of the President.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. What he thought about the family--he said he didn't have any particular comment to make about the President.
He said he had a nice family, that he admired his family, something to that effect. At one time, I don't have this in my report, but at one time I told him, I said, "You know you have killed the President, and this is a very serious charge."
He denied it and said he hadn't killed the President.
I said he had been killed. He said people will forget that within a few days and there would be another President.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about Governor Connally?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't think I questioned him about the Governor at that time. I might have asked him at one time. I remember telling him at one time he shot the Governor.
Mr. DULLES. Will you give us that?
Mr. FRITZ. He denied shooting any of them.
Mr. DULLES. Did he express any antipathy for or friendship for----
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he didn't. He didn't express--during one of Mr. Hosty's talks with him he had talked to him about Governor Connally, and about some letters but that information I don't have. That is something Mr. Hosty will have to tell you about.
Mr. BALL. Your notes show at 11:33 he went back to the jail and about an hour later at 12:35 he was brought back.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In your office for another interview.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In which Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service was present?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Are we now on Saturday noon?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir; this is noon about 12:35.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the meantime your officers had brought back from Irving some pictures that they found in the garage, hadn't they?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you had had them blown up, hadn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
Mr. BALL. What pictures--and you showed Oswald a picture at this time?
Mr. FRITZ. A picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. It showed a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. I showed him first an enlarged picture.
Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 135.
Mr. FRITZ. That is the picture.
Mr. BALL. That is the picture you showed him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is a similar picture, that is a copy of the picture I showed him.
Mr. BALL. You had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men had brought back from Irving?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "I have been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, "One has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different body on it." He said, I know all about photography, I worked with photography for a long time. That is a picture that someone else has made. I never saw that picture in my life."
I said, "Wait just a minute, and I will show you one you have seen probably," and I showed him the little one this one was made from and when I showed him the little one he said, "I never have seen that picture, either." He said, "That is a picture that has been reduced from the big one."
Mr. BALL. I show you Commission No. 133, is that the small picture?
Mr. FRITZ. The small picture; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. A picture of the small picture?
Mr. FRITZ. A picture of the small picture, I guess this is.
Mr. BALL. There are two pictures on 133. Which one was it?
Mr. FRITZ. On the left.
Mr. BALL. The one on the left?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the one holding the two papers.
Mr. BELIN. As you face the picture?
Mr. BALL. As you face the picture the one on the left? [Exhibit No. 133-A.]
Mr. FRITZ. There is a lot of questioning in our mind about the time of this middle day questioning here. We checked it over and over and we can't be sure about the time and I don't want to go on record as not knowing whether this time is correct because it might not be.
Mr. BALL. You mean 12:35?
Mr. FRITZ. 12:35.
Mr. BALL. But you do know this conversation----
Mr. FRITZ. I do know we talked to him a number of times all along, and these questions and answers are right, but the times may be off.
Mr. BALL. You did show him this picture, a picture of Oswald with a rifle and pistol?
Mr. FRITZ. I showed him that at one of those interviews, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And he denied that that was a picture of him.
Mr. FRITZ. That is true; yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BALL. There was another showup that afternoon at 2:15?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. At which time two cabdrivers, one named Scoggins and one named Whaley were shown Oswald. Were you present at that showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so. I will look and see right quickly but I don't think I was. That would have been on the 23d.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. That shows him--M. G. Hall--wait a minute, I am in the wrong one, pardon me. Showup No. 4, shows Officers V. S. Hinkel, Walter Potts, M. G. Hall, C. W. Brown, and J. R. Leavelle who was with the people handling the showup.
Mr. BALL. Your records also show that you were brought--he was brought to your office again at 6 o'clock?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you look at page 138B of your notes. (Commission Document 81B) Was that the time you talked to him about the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. 6 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. That is when I showed an enlarged picture, yes, sir, that is what I show here, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the meantime you had gone out to Neely Street, hadn't you, to try to determine whether or not this was the place for the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we didn't find that out until some time later.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we had heard of the Neely Street address but we didn't know that that was the place where the picture was taken. But later on, Mr. Sorrels and some of the Secret Service men called me and they had found out, I believe from Marina, that that is where the picture was made and they called me and asked me to go with them and we made some other pictures out there to show the place.
Mr. BALL. On this evening at 6 o'clock who was present at the questioning?
Mr. FRITZ. At the questioning, just a minute.
Mr. DULLES. What is the reference to the Marines?
Mr. BALL. Marina.
Mr. DULLES. Marina, I didn't catch it.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that, do you remember, on 6 o'clock on Saturday evening, the 23d? See page 138B.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe Mr. Bookhout, Inspector Kelley, myself, and officers.
Mr. McCLOY. This was an interrogation?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the picture on his face?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BALL. After he had talked to you a while he told you he didn't want to talk to you any more, didn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Look on the second page, 138C, and tell me what happened. Give me in your own words what occurred there.
Mr. FRITZ. You mean about the picture?
Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words, yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; at that time he told me that--the first of the page up here is when he told me he didn't want to answer more questions. "I just told you about that but you want to know something else about this other party."
Mr. BALL. You talked to him sometime later.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I showed him this map, showed him a map of the city of Dallas that he had, and the map had been brought in from his address on North Beckley, and he told me that those markings, they had several markings on this map, one of them was near----
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, isn't that the next morning? We are talking about Saturday night now, you have told us about showing him the enlarged photograph.
Mr. FRITZ. I show 9:30 the morning of the 24th.
Mr. BALL. I am talking about the night.
Mr. FRITZ. All right.
Mr. DULLES. 6:30 at night.
Mr. BALL. 6:30 in the evening.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You showed him the photographs?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; pictures.
Mr. BALL. And he told you they weren't his?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you then? Didn't he tell you then he didn't want to answer any more questions?
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see if he did.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. That is the time that he told me about the photography, that he knew all about photography, and then he said, he didn't want to answer any more questions.
Mr. BALL. What time did you put him back in jail?
Mr. FRITZ. 7:15 p.m.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him again that night?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning you checked him out of jail?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the 24th we had him down in the morning, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present that time?
Mr. FRITZ. That time here at 9:30 in the morning, one of the postal inspectors, Mr. Holmes, Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Bookhout, and I am not sure about Mr. Sorrels staying in there all the time. He was in there part of the time, and that is the time that I showed him the map, too, that morning with these markings on it.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he said they didn't mean anything. Those markings were places he had gone looking for work. I asked him at that time, too, more about his religious beliefs, and Inspector Kelley asked him what he thought about religion and he said he didn't think too much of it. I believe he said of the philosophy of religion.
So he asked him two or three other questions and he was a little evasive so I asked him if he believed in a deity. He said he didn't care to discuss that with me.
Mr. BALL. What else was said?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him, too, I believe on that same morning, I asked him more about his political beliefs and he told me he didn't belong to any political party and he told me he was a Marxist but that he wasn't a Marxist-Leninist, that he was just a Marxist, and that he again told me that he believed in the Castro revolution. That is the morning of the transfer.
Mr. BALL. You asked him about the gun again, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about a lot of things that morning, I sure did.
Mr. BALL. Tell us about it.
Mr. FRITZ. He denied anything about Alek Hidell, and again about his belief in the Fair Play for Cuba.
Mr. BALL. What about the rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the Neely Street address and he denied that address. He denied having a picture made over there and he even denied living there. I told him he had people who visited him over there and he said they were just wrong about visiting.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him again about the rifle, did you ask him if that was the picture, that that rifle was his?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure I did.
Mr. BALL. Look at your notes.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him again if that was his picture holding the rifle and he said it was not.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He denied it. He said he didn't have any knowledge of the picture at all. He said someone else had made it, he didn't know a thing about it or the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you also that same morning again ask him if he brought a sack with him to work on the morning the President was killed?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I asked him. I believe that morning I might have asked him that. I believe I asked him about the sack.
Mr. BALL. Without looking at your notes there let me ask you this.
Mr. FRITZ. All right.
Mr. BALL. When you did ask him about the sack, you did ask him about it, a sack at one time bringing a sack to work that morning?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him the size and shape of the sack, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. He never admitted bringing the sack. I showed him the size probably in asking him if he brought a sack that size and he denied it. He said he brought his lunch was all he brought.
Mr. BALL. Didn't he say when you asked him the size and shape of the sack that he had with him, he said, "I don't recall, it may have been a small sack or a large sack. You don't always find one that fits your sandwiches," something like that.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be true but he said it was a small sack. He said it was a lunch sack.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you ask him where he usually kept his sacks, how he carried it when he came to work in the car?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him where he had the sack--his lunch, and he said he had it in the front seat with him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he put any sack in the back seat?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that Frazier had told you that he had had a long parcel and placed it in the back seat?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about saying Frazier, I am looking at this note to see if I did.
Mr. BALL. The driver of the car----
Mr. FRITZ. I remember telling him that someone told me that and I might have told him that two people saw him because not only Frazier but Frazier's sister saw that package, you know, and I did question him about that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything like this? "He might be mistaken or perhaps thinking about some other time when he picked me up."
Mr. FRITZ. That is probably right.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember it this time but if it is in that note that is probably right.
Mr. BALL. On the curtain rods story, do you remember whether you ever asked him if he told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?
Mr. FRITZ. If I asked him what, please, sir?
Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Oswald whether or not he had told Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package?
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I did but I can't remember that right now. But I am sure I asked him that because I must have asked him that because I asked him a lot of questions, I asked him if he was fixing his house, I remember asking about that, and he said he was not.
Mr. BALL. He said he was what?
Mr. FRITZ. He was not.
Mr. BALL. He said he was not fixing it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what he said in reply to your question?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember what he said about that.
Mr. BALL. Was he questioned about post office boxes that morning?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did, I asked him about those post office boxes, because the postal inspector had told us about those boxes, and Mr. Holmes did most of the talking to him about the boxes, and he knew about the boxes and where they were, and he said he had, and I asked him too if he had ordered a rifle to be shipped to one of those boxes, and he said he had not, to one of those box numbers.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had the boxes?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he had, one of the boxes, if I remember correctly, he never admitted owning at all. The other box he told me he got his, he kept to get his mail, that he said he got some papers from Russia and correspondence with people from Russia and he used that box for his mail.
Mr. BALL. How long did you talk to him this morning of November 24?
Mr. FRITZ. Morning, well, let's see, I am not sure what time we started talking to him.
Mr. BALL. 9:30.
Mr. FRITZ. 9:30, we talked to him then until about--I have the exact time here.
Mr. BALL. Can we cut it shorter, your records show 11:15 in your office.
Mr. FRITZ. Here it is, 11:15.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. First of all, I am going to go through some generally without identifying the particular place but just the subject matter.
In an interview with him you did ask him about the pistol, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Which pistol, the one he shot Tippit with?
Mr. BALL. The one he had with him when he was arrested.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about it, yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. You asked him when he got it and where he got it?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he bought it in Fort Worth about 6 or 7 months ago.
Mr. BALL. How long ago?
Mr. FRITZ. 6 or 7 months.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where in Fort Worth?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he wouldn't tell me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He just wouldn't tell me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him why he had five live .38 caliber bullets in his shirt?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; in his pocket?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No; I didn't ask him that.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ask him that?
Mr. FRITZ. No.
Mr. BALL. Now you did ask him about the photograph, his photograph, the photograph that was found in his garage?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
Mr. BALL. That shows him with a rifle and pistol?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He said it was not his picture at all.
Mr. BALL. You did ask him if he had purchased a rifle from Klein's store in Chicago, Ill., didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.
Mr. BALL. You did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. How he explained the photograph?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the photograph and he said someone else took it. It wasn't his picture at all. He said someone in the hall had taken his picture and made that photograph.
Mr. BALL. In other words, he said the face was his face but the picture was made by somebody superimposing his face?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right; yes.
Mr. BALL. He denied ever having lived on Neely Street, did he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not. He said a long time ago he owned a small rifle.
Mr. BALL. What size did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He didn't say. He said small rifle.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he kept a rifle in Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex.?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I asked him if he brought it from New Orleans and he said no.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him where he kept, if he did keep a rifle in a blanket?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him if he kept it in a blanket and he said no.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you tell him someone told you he had kept it there?
Mr. FRITZ. Someone told me he had a rifle and wrapped in a blanket and kept it in the garage and he said he didn't. It wasn't true.
Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you when you asked him if he owned a rifle, did he say, "How could I afford to order a rifle on my salary of a dollar and a quarter an hour," something like that?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember that.
Mr. BALL. You asked him whether or not he shot President Kennedy, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he did not.
Mr. BALL. And you asked him if he shot Governor Connally?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said he didn't do that, he said he didn't shoot Tippit.
Mr. BALL. With reference to where he was at the time the President was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on?
Mr. FRITZ. I feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor.
Mr. BALL. Look at 136B.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.
Mr. BALL. The second paragraph down, 136B.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. He said he usually worked on the first floor. I asked him what part of the building at the time the President was shot. He said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. In his first interview you say that Hosty asked him if he had been to Mexico.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; he did.
Mr. BALL. He denied it. Did he say he had been at Tijuana once?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember him saying he had been at Tijuana.
Mr. BALL. What did you remember him saying?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember him saying he had been to Russia, told me he had been to Russia, and was over there for some time, and he told Hosty that he had a record of that, knew he had been there, told him a number of things so far as that is concerned.
Mr. BALL. What did he say about Mexico?
Mr. FRITZ. Mexico, I don't remember him admitting that he had been to any part of Mexico.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember him saying?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember he said he did not go to Mexico City and I don't remember him saying he ever went to Tijuana.
Mr. BALL. In your report at 138E you have made a statement there of the conditions under which this interrogation proceeded, haven't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell us about that. You can describe it either as you state it here in your own words, but tell us what your difficulties were?
Mr. FRITZ. I can tell you in just a minute. My office is small as you know, it is a small office, it doesn't have too much room to begin with.
With all the outer office full of officers who all wanted to help and we were glad to have their assistance and help, and we appreciate it, but in the hallway we had some 200 news reporters and cameramen with big cameras and little cameras and cables running on the floors to where we could hardly get in and out of the office.
In fact, we had to get two police officers assigned to the front door to keep them out of the office so we could work.
My office is badly arranged for a thing of this kind. We never had anything like this before, of course. I don't have a back door and I don't have a door to the jail elevator without having to go through that hall for 20 feet, and each time we went through that hallway to and from the jail we had to pull him through all those people, and they, of course, would holler at him and say things to him, and some of them were bad things, and some were things that seemed to please him and some seemed to aggravate him, and I don't think that helped at all in questioning him. I think that all of that had a tendency to keep him upset.
Mr. BALL. What about the interview itself?
Mr. FRITZ. Now the interview itself inside, of course, we did have a lot of people in the office there to be interviewing a man. It is much better, and you can keep a man's attention and his thoughts on what you are talking to him about better I think if there are not more than two or three people.
But in a case of this nature as bad as this case was, we certainly couldn't tell the Secret Service and the FBI we didn't want them to work on it because they would have the same interest we would have, they would want to do anything they could do, so we, of course, invited them in too but it did make a pretty big crowd.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any tape recorder?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have a tape recorder. We need one, if we had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far better.
Mr. BALL. The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I have requested one several times but so far they haven't gotten me one.
Mr. BALL. And you had quite a few interruptions, too, during the questioning, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had quite a lot of interruptions. I wish we had had--under the circumstances, I don't think there is much that could have been done because I saw it as it was there and I don't think there was a lot that could have been done other than move that crowd out of there, but I think it would have been more apt to get a confession out of it or get more true facts from him if I could have got him to sit down and quietly talked with him.
Mr. BALL. While he was in your custody up to this time at 11:15, when he left your office what precautions did you take for his safety in custody?
Mr. FRITZ. In custody. We took all kinds of precautions to keep him, anyone from hurting him. We had an officer go with the jailer and back and we did everything we thought we could do.
As I told you a while ago we even put officers on the stage with him and when we couldn't do that put officers at the end of the stage with him so they could get quickly to him if anybody tried to hurt him or molest him.
Mr. BALL. In your office you always had officers with him?
Mr. FRITZ. Always, right near him.
Mr. BALL. When you went down this crowded hallway, how did you protect him?
Mr. FRITZ. There were officers went with him each time.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. FRITZ. From three to six.
Mr. BALL. And in the jail, what did you do?
Mr. FRITZ. In the jail, I don't know. I didn't handle the jail.
Mr. BALL. You didn't handle the jail?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't handle the jail. I am sure though they used more than average precautions up there.
Mr. BALL. When you left at 11:15, what was your purpose in leaving at 11:15?
Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the--you are talking about the 24th?
Mr. BALL. On the 24th, yes.
Mr. FRITZ. To transfer him to the county jail.
Mr. BALL. Had you been requested by Sheriff Decker to transfer him there before?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I had talked to the chief about transferring him down there. The chief had called me on the 23d, on the 23d, I can't give you the exact minute, probably a little after noon, he had called me and asked me when we would be ready to transfer him and I told him we were still questioning him. We didn't want to transfer him yet. He said, "Can he be ready by about 4 o'clock? Can he be transferred by 4 o'clock?" I told him I didn't think we could.
Mr. BALL. That would be Saturday afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. That would be the 23d, would be Saturday, yes, sir. Then he asked me could he be ready by 10 o'clock in the morning, so I could tell these people something definitely, and I felt sure we would be ready by then. However, we didn't, we ran overtime as you can see by this report, an hour and a half over, when they come over to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. Why did you say you would not be ready by 4 o'clock on Saturday?
Mr. FRITZ. We wanted to ask him some more questions, to get more information.
Mr. BALL. Did you consider transferring him at night?
Mr. FRITZ. At night?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer Oswald.
And I said, well, I don't know. I said there has been no security setup, and the chief having something to do with this transfer and you had better call him, because--so he told me he would.
Mr. BALL. Did you think----
Mr. FRITZ. He called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. I don't think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than transferring, may I say this?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Any safer than transferring him during the day. I have always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning.
I don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, I don't know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would have used security of some kind.
Mr. BALL. Now weren't you transferring him?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves?
Mr. FRITZ. I mean transferring like I was told to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRITZ. I was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. How would you have transferred him?
Mr. FRITZ. I did do one thing here, I should tell you about. When the chief came back and asked me if I was ready to transfer him, I told him I had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in the jail office and I was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office.
So when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and I said, "We are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "It is all set up." He said, "The people are across the street, and the newsmen are all well back in the garage," and he said "It is all set."
And at that time he told me, he said, "We have got the money wagon up there to transfer him in," and I said, "Well, I don't like the idea, chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." We, of course, didn't know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon, and he said, "Well, that is all right. Transfer him in your car like you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and I will have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the left on Elm Street and the money wagon can turn down Elm Street and you can turn down Main Street, when you get to Main Street, going to the county jail," and he told me he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the county jail, that is when we started out.
Mr. BALL. How would you have done it if you were going to do it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I hesitate to say because it didn't work good this way. If I had done it like I would do it or usually do it or something and it hadn't worked I would be just in the same shape you know, and it would be just as bad, so I don't like to be critical of something because it turned out real bad.
You can kind of understand my--I know that our chief didn't know anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to transfer it that way.
Mr. BALL. How would you have done it?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, we transferred Ruby the next day at about the same time, and I had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away from the office. We drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was open. We had about the same threats on him that we did with Oswald. We saw that the driveway was open. I went back to the bus station and I called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even in the office where they were going, mark Ruby transferred temporarily, which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail elevator with him. For the other one to come to the outside door and when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down Main Street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we were coming and put him in the jail. It worked all right.
But now if it hadn't worked, you know, I don't want to be saying that I know more about transferring than someone else, because this could happen to me. I could see if it happened to Ruby, I would have had all the blame.
Mr. BALL. Now, if on that morning at 11:15 you planned to transfer him, didn't you, according to the chief's orders?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you were through questioning him, weren't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Sir?
Mr. BALL. You were all through questioning him?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. I would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to hold the man any longer.
Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and I told--he was already handcuffed, and I told one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to Oswald's right hand, and to keep him right with him.
Mr. BALL. That was Leavelle?
Mr. FRITZ. Leavelle, yes, sir. He first started the other hand on the other side, and I told Officer Graves to get on the other side and Montgomery to follow him, and I would go down and an officer by the name of Swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me and I went out in back of him and I was approaching our car to open the back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the car in through the people--they were crowding all over the car--and I heard the shot and I turned just in time to see the officers push Ruby to the pavement.
Mr. BALL. When you came out of the jail door were the lights on?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the lights were on. I don't believe they were on as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming out of the door, and I asked one of the officers, two of them answered me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. So we came out.
Mr. BALL. What about the lights?
Mr. FRITZ. The lights were almost blinding.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the people in the crowd?
Mr. FRITZ. I could see the people but I could hardly tell who they were, because of the lights. I have been wearing glasses this year and with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like that, the lights were glaring.
Mr. BALL. How far ahead of Ruby were you?
Mr. FRITZ. Well. I thought they were right behind me almost but I noticed from the picture they were a little further back than I actually thought they were, probably where Mr. Baker is to this gentleman. I believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe about----
Mr. BALL. How far behind Oswald were you, how far behind Oswald. Oswald was behind you?
Mr. FRITZ. Behind me.
Mr. BALL. How many feet would you say?
Mr. FRITZ. In feet I would say probably 8 feet.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know of Jack Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never did know him. I never knew him at all. Some of the officers knew him. But I never knew him.
Mr. BALL. Were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of light?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see any flashing lights. These were steady blinding lights that I saw. That I couldn't see, you might say.
Mr. DULLES. These were television cameras?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Did you hear of Warren Reynolds?
Mr. FRITZ. Warren Reynolds?
Mr. BALL. Who was shot sometime afterwards?
Mr. FRITZ. Used car lot man?
Mr. BALL. Used car lot?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I talked to him. He was shot through the head.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't talk to him very long because I didn't have to talk to him long or I didn't have to talk to him very long but he told me two or three different stories and I could tell he was a sick man and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say anything.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that--he told me two or three stories, one story he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him, he told me that he saw this Ruby coming down there and he told him--he said he followed him up and saw which way he went.
Mr. BALL. Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Saw Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Oswald, and I questioned him further and I asked him, how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were you from him? He said, well, from that car lot across the street there. Well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. It would be quite difficult so I talked to him for just a short time and I didn't bother with him any more.
I already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about him. They discounted anything that he told.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out who shot him and why he was shot?
Mr. FRITZ. This man on the car lot?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. They think it might have been over a car deal but they are not positive and I don't know that he will ever tell them.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting of Warren Reynolds and the killing?
Mr. FRITZ. Never.
Mr. BALL. The assassination of the President?
Mr. FRITZ. None at all.
Mr. BALL. The killing of Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. No; we found nothing. We checked it.
Mr. BALL. Any connection between Oswald and Warren Reynolds or Ruby and Warren Reynolds?
Mr. FRITZ. We found no connection. We had all kinds of rumors, of course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you investigate it?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had some officers investigate it, and the forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on the shooting case. They handled all the shootings where people are not killed.
Mr. BALL. I see.
Had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered to be?
Mr. FRITZ. At first?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. FRITZ. I had been; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then it was changed, what day?
Mr. FRITZ. Ten o'clock the night before the parade, I got a call at home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go to the speaker's tent.
Mr. BALL. Who called you?
Mr. FRITZ. Chief Stevenson.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that made any difference?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. I wouldn't want to say because it is like telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a man shot or have good luck or bad luck.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't quite get you where were you to be in the motorcade if you had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Right behind the Vice President's car.
Mr. DULLES. Behind the Vice President's car?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Had there been a plan for a car in front of the President's car?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I didn't make the arrangements for the parade. That was only--those were the only instructions I had--was that one assignment.
Mr. BALL. Did you--do you feel any resentment toward the Secret Service or the FBI men because they were in your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no, no, because I work with them all the time.
Mr. BALL. You do?
Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Bookhout is in my office with the FBI. My books are all on the outside and they check my books as often as I do.
Mr. BALL. Well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps if there hadn't been some investigators?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, that would be kind of a bad question.
Mr. BALL. I mean questioning Oswald.
Mr. FRITZ. Maybe they would have done better if I hadn't been there.
Mr. DULLES. How was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the Secret Service and the FBI?
Mr. FRITZ. We got along fine with the Secret Service and FBI a hundred percent.
Mr. McCLOY. Captain Fritz, did you have charge of the attempted shooting of General Walker?
Mr. FRITZ. No; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by Captain Jones, it would have been the other bureau.
Mr. McCLOY. Captain Jones. Have we examined Captain Jones?
Mr. HUBERT. A deposition has been taken.
Mr. DULLES. You had nothing to do with the investigation of the Walker case?
Mr. FRITZ. Not at all. That happened to be Captain Jones and Lieutenant Cunningham.
Mr. DULLES. Did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations of Oswald? Did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of that sort?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that I ever asked him about that. If I did, I don't remember it. I don't remember asking about that, asking him about that at all. We had a little information on it but I didn't want to mix it up in that other case and I didn't want to mix it up.
Mr. McCLOY. I would like to go back some distance. When you first went into the building there.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go out of a description of Oswald, according to what information you had on the subject?
Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't have that because I hadn't heard a broadcast of a description when I went into the building. So if one went out it probably was after I went in.
Mr. McCLOY. When Mr. Truly told you that one of his men was missing?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him.
Mr. McCLOY. And he gave you a description at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; home address.
Mr. McCLOY. That was his home address and also a description?
Mr. FRITZ. His home address and a description, what he looked like, his age, and so forth.
Mr. McCLOY. Now that description, to whom was that description given?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I never did give it any anyone because when I got to the office he was there.
Mr. McCLOY. He was there when you got to the office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. I understand----
Mr. FRITZ. I think I could help you a minute about that description that went out over the radio but I didn't hear it. When I got to the building, some officer there told me, said we think the man who did the shooting out of the window is a tall, white man, that is all I had. That didn't mean much you know because you can't tell five or six floors up whether a man is tall or short.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you question the colored men that were on the fifth floor?
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to part of them. Most of them were questioned by the other officers, investigating officers I had assigned there; yes, sir. I talked to very few of them. I did do this. I did assign an officer to take affidavits from all of those people.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the witness?
Mr. FRITZ. Brennan?
Mr. McCLOY. Brennan was the alleged----
Mr. FRITZ. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, Mr. Sorrels brought over?
Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels----
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell what showup it was and then I gave him the time.
Mr. McCLOY. But you were not present to the best of your recollection when Brennan was in the showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever inspect these premises on Neely Street?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. With the Secret Service. We went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. It was vacant. The man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers.
Mr. McCLOY. Are the pictures in the record?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. I suppose you have them here.
Mr. McCLOY. Do we have the pictures?
Mr. BALL. I don't believe we have any pictures that you made.
Mr. FRITZ. Of the one we made over in the backyard.
Mr. McCLOY. I think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. Have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken.
Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, I am sure of that, our men made the pictures. I believe we have them right here. Maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them.
Mr. BALL. Could you send them to us?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Lieutenant Day may have some with him. His men have them.
Mr. BALL. Maybe Lieutenant Day has them. I have a few questions here. You mentioned that Hosty, the first day he was there you said that he said he knows these people. Did he tell you that he knew Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, he wasn't talking to me really.
Mr. BALL. What did he say to Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. That was the agent--what did Hosty say to Oswald?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. Or what did----
Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say?
Mr. FRITZ. I thought you meant what about Shanklin said to Hosty.
Mr. BALL. Did Hosty say to you that he knew Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard Mr. Shanklin tell Mr. Hosty on the telephone. I had Mr. Bookhout pick up the telephone and I had an extension.
Mr. BALL. What did he hear?
Mr. FRITZ. He said is Hosty in that investigation, Bookhout said no. He said, "I want him in that investigation right now because he knows those people he has been talking to," and he said some other things that I don't want to repeat, about what to do if he didn't do it right quick. So I didn't tell them that I even knew what Mr. Shanklin said. I walked out there and called them in.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed at all times during the interrogation?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe he was; yes, sir, I believe we kept him handcuffed at all times. The first time we brought him in he was handcuffed with his hands behind him and he was uncomfortable and I had the officers change them and put his hands up front.
Mr. BALL. Was he fed any time during that day?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was. I don't remember buying him something to eat. I usually do, if they are hard up in jail at the time I buy something to eat but some of the other officers remember me buying him food but the only thing he would drink was I believe some milk and ate a little package of those crackers sandwiches and one of the other officers bought him a cup of coffee and that is all he would either eat or drink, that is all he wanted.
Mr. BALL. Now he talked to his wife and----
Mr. FRITZ. And his mother.
Mr. BALL. And his brother, Robert?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am pretty sure he did.
Mr. BALL. Where did he talk to them?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that would be up in the jail. He didn't want them in my office.
Mr. BALL. Do you have that jail----
Mr. FRITZ. Wait just one second. No, sir; that was in the jail.
Mr. BALL. Is the jail wired so that you can listen to conversations?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it isn't. Sometimes I wish I could hear some of the things they say but we don't.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you don't monitor conversations?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we let them talk to anyone they want to. If they are allowed to use the telephone, of course, they are allowed free use of it. Sometimes they do a little better than that. Sometimes they place a long distance call and charge it to the city.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went in, Captain Fritz, and you saw the site which Oswald is alleged to have fired the shot from----
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see any signs of a lunch there, a chicken there?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I will tell you where that story about the chicken comes from. At the other window above there, where people in days past, you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces of bread, all kinds of things up and down there. That isn't where he was at all. He was in a different window, so I don't think those things have anything to do with it. Someone wrote a story about it in the papers, and we have got all kinds of bad publicity from it and they wrote in telling us how to check those chicken bones and how to get them from the stomach and everything.
Mr. DULLES. What was Oswald's attitude toward the police and police authority?
Mr. FRITZ. You know I didn't have trouble with him. If we would just talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right until I asked him a question that meant something, every time I asked him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to anticipate what I was going to ask. In fact, he got so good at it one time, I asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been questioned before.
Mr. DULLES. Questioned before?
Mr. FRITZ. Questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the FBI questioned him when he came back from Russia from a long time and they tried different methods. He said they tried the buddy boy method and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he said, "I understand that."
Mr. DULLES. Did you ask him whether he had had any communist training or indoctrination or anything of that kind?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him some questions about that and I asked him where he was in Russia. He told me he was in Russia, first I believe he told me, first I believe he said in Moscow, and then he said he went to Minsk, Russia, and I asked him what did you do, get some training, go to school? I suspected he had some training in sabotage from the way he talked and acted, and he said "no, I worked in a radio factory." He acted like a person who was prepared for what he was doing.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any views of your own as to motive from your talks with him? Did you get any clues as to possible motive in assassinating the President?
Mr. FRITZ. I can only tell you what little I know now. I am sure that we have people in Washington here that can tell far more than I can.
Mr. DULLES. Well, you saw the man and the others didn't see the man.
Mr. FRITZ. I got the impression, I got the impression that he was doing it because of his feeling about the Castro revolution, and I think that he felt, he had a lot of feeling about that revolution.
(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRITZ. I think that was the reason. I noticed another thing. I noticed a little before when Walker was shot, he had come out with some statements about Castro and about Cuba and a lot of things and if you will remember the President had some stories a few weeks before his death about Cuba and about Castro and some things, and I wondered if that didn't have some bearing. I have no way of knowing that other than just watching him and talking to him. I think it was his feeling about his belief in being a Marxist, I think he had--he told me he had debated in New Orleans, and that he tried to get converts to this Fair Play for Cuba organization, so I think that was his motive. I think he was doing it because of that.
Mr. DULLES. Did he express any animosity against anyone, the President or the Governor or Walker or anybody?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not. Not with me he didn't.
Mr. DULLES. Not with you?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. He just, the fact he just didn't talk about them much. He just didn't say hardly anything. When I asked him he didn't say much about them.
Mr. McCLOY. You knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. I wanted to tell you one thing before I forget. One time I asked him something about whether or not, either I asked him or someone else in there asked him, if he thought he would be better off, if he thought the country would be better off with the President killed and he said, "Well, I think that the Vice President has about the same views as the President has." He says he will probably do about the same thing that President Kennedy will do.
Mr. DULLES. Oswald said that to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Either to me or someone, it could be one of the other officers who asked that question while they were talking about him.
Mr. McCLOY. Of course, you knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know him. I didn't know him. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. He didn't work directly under you?
Mr. FRITZ. I looked at his record and saw that the chief of the personnel file and I looked at the personnel file and I talked to a number of officers who did know him and they speak very highly.
Mr. DULLES. Have you ever reviewed his record since these events?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't exactly review it but I read a good part of it and the chief read a good part of it to me.
Mr. DULLES. The record is good?
Mr. FRITZ. The record is good. It was average, it looked better than a lot of them do. It is all right. It had the same little things that happen to most officers, maybe some little complaint about something minor, nothing of any consequence.
Mr. McCLOY. So far as you know he had no connection with Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure he did not. I think I know what you people have probably heard. We hear all kinds of rumors down our way and I am not trying to volunteer a lot of things here. I know you have a lot of business to do, have you heard something about some connection between Oswald and Ruby and Tippit, and some fourth person. I heard some story, we didn't find any ground for it at all. We didn't find any connection of any kind that would connect them together. I can't even find a connection between Ruby and Oswald and I can't place them in the same building at the same time nor place them in the same building together, YMcA, one of them lived there and one of them was taking some kind of an athletic course there.
Mr. McCLOY. But not at the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I can't place them there at the same time; no, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Have you discovered any connection between any of your officers and Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I think a lot of the officers knew Ruby. I think about two or three officers in my office knew him, and I think practically all of the special service officers who handle the vice and the clubs and the liquor violations, I think nearly all of them knew him and, of course, the officer knew him who had arrested him carrying pistols a time or two, two or three times, uniformed officer mostly. He seemed to be well known. It seems a lot of people in town knew him. But I never was in his place and I didn't know him. Twenty years ago I might have been in his place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz, from being with Oswald for a couple of days what were your impressions about him? Was he afraid, scared?
Mr. FRITZ. Was he afraid?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe he was afraid at all. I think he was a person who had his mind made up what to do and I think he was like a person just dedicated to a cause. And I think he was above average for intelligence.
I know a lot of people call him a nut all the time but he didn't talk like a nut. He knew exactly when to quit talking. He knew the kind of questions. I could talk to him as long as I wanted to if I just talked about a lot of things that didn't amount to anything. But any time I asked him a question that meant something he answered quick.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of a lawyer in Chicago that called up and offered to help Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Some lawyer from Chicago sent him a wire.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the wire?
Mr. FRITZ. I saw the wire; yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lawyer was?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember his name. I believe he probably had it delivered to the jail.
Mr. BALL. To Oswald, a lawyer from Chicago offered his services to Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Ruby too. But I am talking about the one to Oswald. I don't know that I would even know his name if I heard it.
Mr. BALL. We have some pictures here from the crime laboratory as we have marked Exhibits 712, 713, and 714. The witness has already identified a picture of Oswald. I show you this, Captain, can you tell me which one of these pictures on Exhibit 714 that you showed to Oswald the day when you interrogated him, asked him it that was his picture?
Mr. FRITZ. It is the one with the two papers in his hand.
Mr. BALL. The one to the right. Did you ever show him the one to the left?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. We offer 713, 712, and 714 as two pictures taken.
Mr. FRITZ. These are the pictures I told about a while ago.
Mr. BALL. They were taken by your crime lab?
Mr. FRITZ. Our crime lab took these pictures when I went over there with Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. BALL. Where were they taken?
Mr. FRITZ. In the backyard of the Neely Street address. If you will note, you will see in this picture, you notice that top right there of this shed. Of course, this picture is taken up closer, but if you step back further you can see about where the height comes to on that shed right there. Not exactly in the same position.
Mr. BALL. I offered these. (Commission Exhibits Nos. 712, 713, and 714 were admitted.)
Mr. FRITZ. It shows the gate.
Mr. BALL. Indicating the location of the picture taken--this set will indicate the pictures were all taken at the Neely Street backyard.
Mr. DULLES. You recall the date of these pictures, in April?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe they will be dated on the back of them.
Mr. DULLES. April, so the trees would be about the same.
Mr. BALL. When were the pictures taken by your crime lab?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure but I believe the date will be on the back of the picture. November 29, 1963. Picture made by Officer Brown who works in the crime lab.
Mr. BALL. Captain, I would like to ask you some more questions about your prisoner.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.
Mr. BALL. The first day that you had Oswald in custody, did you get a notice from the FBI, any of the FBI officers that there had been a communication from Washington suggesting that you take extra precautions for the safety of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall whether or not on Friday----
The CHAIRMAN. What was your answer to that?
Mr. FRITZ. I did not, I got no such instructions. In fact, we couldn't--we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we did not get the notice, I never heard of that.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall that on Friday, November 22, Wade asked you or did he or didn't District Attorney Wade ask you to transfer Oswald to the county jail for security?
Mr. FRITZ. That would be on the night of the 22d?
Mr. BALL. On the night of the 22d.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he asked me if I would transfer him that night.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. We wanted to talk to him some more. We talked a little bit. He didn't actually want him transferred. He just was more or less talking about whether or not we wanted to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. Now on Saturday Decker called you and asked you to transfer him?
Mr. FRITZ. On Saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him?
Mr. BALL. Yes, that would be the 23d.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. BALL. Did Chief Curry tell you that Decker had called or anything of that sort?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; when I was talking to Chief Curry on one of those conversations, I don't think it is the conversation now when he told me about the hours, I think it is another conversation, I told him, I said, "I don't know whether we were going to transfer him or Decker was going to transfer him," and Chief Curry said, "We are going to transfer him, I have talked to Decker, we are going to transfer him."
Mr. BALL. When were the plans for the transfer made?
Mr. FRITZ. When were the plans made?
Mr. BALL. Yes; do you know?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know about that. The only thing I know is what I told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by 10 o'clock that morning, and I told him I thought we could.
Mr. BALL. You didn't make the plans yourself?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were made by the chief?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; they were made by the chief.
Mr. BALL. When did the chief first tell you what the plans were?
Mr. FRITZ. That was on the 23d. He didn't tell me about all the plans, of course, at that time because I told you when he came up to tell us about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the armored car, that is the first I had ever heard of that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell any of the press the time that Oswald would be moved?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I was interrogated by a bunch of them as I started to leave the office on the night of the 23d. As we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some of the FBI officers, we started to the elevator some 10 or 20 reporters came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at 10 o'clock the next morning and if we were and I didn't talk to them so I don't think I ever said much if anything to them because I know one of them followed me almost to my parking lot, I know, asking me questions about the transfer.
Mr. BALL. At 11:15 when they left your office, do you know whether or not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements?
Mr. FRITZ. On our radio?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL. Or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your floor at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Any of those newsmen?
Mr. BALL. Newsmen?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were all down in the basement. You are talking about the morning of the 24th?
Mr. BALL. On the morning of the 24th when you were moving?
Mr. FRITZ. Any number of them downstairs. I don't remember whether there were any upstairs or not. There probably was maybe a few of them because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the elevator. We went through the mail elevator.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d and 23d, the third floor was full of newspapermen and photographers?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time, completely full.
Mr. BALL. Had they left the third floor on the 24th?
Mr. FRITZ. A lot of them had; yes, sir. A lot of them had, and were downstairs in the basement.
Mr. BALL. How about the television cameras?
Mr. FRITZ. I noticed--television cameras, they were downstairs too.
Mr. BALL. They weren't up on the third floor?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe--there could have been one or two of them left up there, I don't think many of them were still up there.
Mr. BALL. Most of them were downstairs?
Mr. FRITZ. Most of them were downstairs. I wouldn't say there weren't any up there because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't at least a few of them up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. What did you mean by that?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I meant if everything, it was all right for us to go to our car with him. We didn't want to leave the jail office with him unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't all right, I didn't want to come out with him.
Mr. BALL. And you went ahead, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; first Lieutenant Swain and then I went out and then the other officers followed me with the prisoner.
Mr. BALL. Was the car there you were going to get in?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you reached the car yet?
Mr. FRITZ. I was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the back door, I looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact distance I was from the car but I couldn't have been any further than reaching distance.
Mr. BALL. When you left, or after Ruby shot Oswald, he was taken upstairs, wasn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was. He was first carried into the jail office, you mean Ruby?
Mr. BALL. Ruby, when Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor there. Ruby was brought into the jail office. Now I believe that Ruby was brought into the jail office after Oswald, I believe Oswald was already on the floor or behind there because I know the officers had taken Ruby upstairs went behind me and I saw them pass behind me with him to the jail.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Did I talk to him; no, sir; I talked to him later.
Mr. McCLOY. I wonder if at this time you would want a little recess?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am comfortable.
Mr. McCLOY. I think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this morning.
Mr. FRITZ. If it is all right with you.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. BALL. Later?
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him later, probably an hour later. I guess I have the exact time here if you need it.
Mr. BALL. What did Ruby say to you, do you have the exact time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me, I told him, I, of course, wanted to know something about premeditation because I was thinking about the trial too and I told him I wanted to ask him some questions and he said, well, he first said, "I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to my lawyers," and he said, I believe he told me too that he had been advised by a lawyer, and I asked him some other question and he said, "Now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool in front of my lawyers I will talk to you."
I didn't ask him one way or the other, but I did ask him some questions and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about the Presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for Mrs. Kennedy. He didn't want to see her to have to come back to Dallas for a trial, and a lot of other things like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him how he got down to the jail?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he came down that ramp from the outside. So I told him, I said, "No, you couldn't have come down that ramp because there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and you couldn't come down that ramp." He said, "I am not going to talk to you any more, I am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked to me any more about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him again?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I ever talked to him after that. I talked to him a little while then and I don't believe I ever talked to him after that. I asked him when he first decided to kill Oswald, and he didn't tell me that. He told me something else, talked about something else.
Mr. BALL. What was that time, you said you could give us the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I can give you the time. 3:05.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. FRITZ. 3:05.
Mr. BALL. 3:05 in the afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know that Archer or Dean or Newman had talked to Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know that they had talked to him. I knew that some officers had talked to him but I didn't know who they were.
Mr. BALL. Were there any reports given you by any one of these three men, Dean----
Mr. FRITZ. They weren't given to me. Those reports were given to the investigative team that the chief setup headed by Captain Jones and some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. I have copies of it.
Mr. BALL. You have copies of those reports?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. Do you know, did you know prior to the trial of Ruby that either Dean or Archer or Newman, either one, had claimed to have talked to Ruby about his premeditation in the killing of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir, I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that. They never told me about that. I wouldn't have known. I think that maybe the chief had taken some report from Dean, but I didn't see that until, I think I put it in this book a few days ago.
Mr. BALL. Well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the Oswald killing?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were in charge of that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then all the reports would come to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Come here; yes, sir. With one exception. The reports from all those officers in the security in the basement. You see, I had nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that was under the security division and the chief might have given that assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. We have their copies, too.
Mr. BALL. Well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide?
Mr. FRITZ. The homicide but I didn't have charge of the investigation of the basement incident.
Mr. BALL. Well, the reason for my question is that there has been some question raised as to testimony in the Ruby trial of these men, Dean, Archer, and Newman.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I heard that.
Mr. BALL. And they have testified to certain statements made that they heard from Ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men have reported to you that they had heard that.
Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or reported it in writing to their department?
Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone I didn't get it. But I understand that Dean had made some kind of special report to the chief but that wasn't to me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have it here?
Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men.
Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers.
Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a colored man.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true.
Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in the presence of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. In the presence of Oswald?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure he did not. I believe that man did come to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and I believe I stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute and I let someone else take an affidavit from him. We should have that affidavit from him if it would help.
Mr. BALL. Now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your office and Oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at Oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he says that in your presence he identified Oswald as the man that he had seen run across this lawn and get into the white Rambler sedan. Do you remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. I think it was taken, I think it was one of my officers, and I think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the outside because I am sure of one thing that I didn't bring him in the office with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. You are sure you didn't?
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure of that. I feel positive of that. I would remember that I am sure.
Mr. BALL. He also says that in that office----
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. After he had said, "That is the man," that Oswald got up from his chair and slammed his hand on the table and said, "Now everybody will know who I am." Did that ever occur in your presence?
Mr. FRITZ. If it did I never saw anything like that; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. That didn't occur?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it didn't. That man is not telling a true story if that is what he said. Do you have any--could I ask a question, is it all right if I ask a question?
Mr. McCLOY. All right, go ahead.
Mr. BALL. Go ahead.
Mr. FRITZ. I was going to ask if we had any affidavits from any of our officers that would back that up? If they did I never heard of it.
Mr. BALL. If you are here tomorrow.
Mr. FRITZ. It is something I don't know anything about.
Mr. BALL. If you are here tomorrow I would like to show you the deposition of the man for you to read it.
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I would know that. The only time I saw the man hit the desk was when Mr. Hosty talked to him and he really got upset about that.
Mr. DULLES. Is that in the testimony, have you testified about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. That shows his agitation over the alleged----
Mr. FRITZ. Questioning.
Mr. McCLOY. Questioning of his wife.
Mr. FRITZ. That is right.
Mr. BALL. In the light of your experience in this case, do you think you should alter your regulations with the press, have a little more discipline when the press are around?
Mr. FRITZ. We can with the local press. We can't do much with those people that we don't know from those foreign countries, and from distant States, they don't ask us. They just write what they hear of and we read it.
Mr. BALL. No; but I mean in the physical control of your plant there?
Mr. FRITZ. There at city hall?
Mr. BALL. Do you think you should alter your policy?
Mr. FRITZ. We think we can control it normally, because those officers, those people from the press there wouldn't come in and start taking pictures without permission. They wouldn't do that without asking, and then usually I ask a prisoner because some prisoners don't want their pictures taken and sometimes they do, if they want it taken why it is all right. Sometimes we don't let them take them at all, depending on circumstances.
Mr. BALL. Do you permit television interrogation of your prisoners in jail?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or in the----
Mr. FRITZ. In the jail I don't have charge of the jail but I am sure they don't because I haven't heard of that. We don't have it in the office either.
Mr. McCLOY. But----
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think it is a good idea at all because I don't know what that man might say.
Mr. BALL. I agree.
Mr. McCLOY. You would have jurisdiction to keep out foreign correspondents if you wanted to?
Mr. FRITZ. Keep them out of the office; yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Keep them out of the building?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have charge of the building but I can keep them out of my office, up to that door, I can have enough officers I can take care of that fine. Out in that building, that is more or less a job for the uniform division.
Mr. DULLES. A job for the uniform division, the police?
Mr. FRITZ. A job for the uniform division, they can take charge of it and they have uniforms.
Mr. DULLES. Who establishes the policy?
Mr. FRITZ. The chief of police establishes the policy. He has assistants, of course.
Mr. McCLOY. You have testified that you were really hampered in your investigation, in your interrogation of Oswald by reason of the confusion.
Mr. FRITZ. I think so.
Mr. McCLOY. By reason of too many people being around, isn't that right?
Mr. FRITZ. I think so, but I am not sure that could have been avoided under these circumstances.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, couldn't you----
Mr. FRITZ. I think that----
Mr. McCLOY. Couldn't you have demanded that your office be cleared so that you could have a quiet investigation?
Mr. FRITZ. I could hardly tell the Secret Service and the FBI or any other Federal agency--I had the outer office had Texas Rangers out there, several of them, and you could understand why they would be in there because the Governor had been shot and they work directly for the Governor out of Austin, so you could hardly tell people like that that you don't want them to help.
Now, if this were just an average case, just an average hijacking case we have, we could easily, we could handle it with all ease but where the President of the United States is killed it would be hard to tell the Secret Service and the FBI that they couldn't come in.
Mr. McCLOY. But you could have told the newspaper people, the media people that they couldn't come in.
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't let them come in my office or in my part of the office.
Mr. McCLOY. They never were in your office when you were examining Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Never. I think one of them got inside of the outer office but someone immediately put him out.
Mr. DULLES. What is the jurisdiction of the city manager as compared to the chief of police, does he have authority over the chief of police?
Mr. FRITZ. The city manager is our big boss, he is over all of us. He is over the chief of police and he operates the city. He is responsible only to the mayor and city council. And I think that they give him a pretty free hand.
We have got a city manager and he tells, he sets the policies, of course, maybe I made a mistake when I told you that the chief of police sets the policies of our police department, but the city manager would set the policies for the city as a whole.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you have anything else that you think that is on your mind that might help us in getting at the rockbottom of either the Oswald murder or the President's murder?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that you people know about everything that we know. We have tried to get everything in this book. We have tried not to withhold anything, and I will tell you something about this case that I told some people in the beginning.
I don't know of anything about this case that we can't tell all about, the truth about it from start to finish now. I think the truth fits it better than anything we can do to it. I hope I have gotten this story to you correctly. I hope I haven't made some mistakes in some of my testimony about time and the dates and things because if I have----
Mr. McCLOY. Are there any further leads that you would like to follow up or do you feel that the case is from your point of view closed in terms of--
Mr. FRITZ. We won't ever close it. We never close any murder case and we won't ever close it. I will tell you what, if anything came up about this case that we thought we could do to help on it, and it came up 10 years from now we would work on it. We would work on it regardless of what time it came up. I do think this, that there have been a lot of things about this case that we won't be able to handle. If we get any information about anything that involves foreign relations we will pass that on to the people who know what to do with it. We won't try to handle anything like that because we might do a very wrong thing. We would give that to either the FBI or the Secret Service, depending on the type of information it was, and they would pass it on to wherever they wanted to.
Mr. McCLOY. Are there any pending leads in this case that you feel that you would like to follow up beyond?
Mr. FRITZ. Right now?
Mr. McCLOY. Right now.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe we have one. Do you think of any lead to follow up? I can't think of one. If I thought of one we would sure start on it. But I don't think we have.
Mr. BALL. There is one problem here in your records that we asked about. Where was Oswald between 12:35 a.m., and 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is right after midnight?
Mr. FRITZ. Right after midnight.
Mr. BALL. The jailer's records show he was checked out.
Mr. FRITZ. I think I know where he was right after midnight. I think he went to the identification bureau to be fingerprinted and have his picture made.
Mr. BALL. You know. You can probably advise him and he can tell us. What is it?
Mr. FRITZ. I think that, if it is the time that I am thinking about, if it is the time that after he was, after he had his arraignment, I think from what we found out since then that he went there for picture and fingerprints.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. FRITZ. Maybe you should ask Lieutenant Baker here something that I don't know anything about, that he knows, that might help to clarify that question you asked me just then. I thought he went for the picture, but tell him.
TESTIMONY OF T. L. BAKER
Mr. McCLOY. Lieutenant, will you be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BAKER. I do.
Mr. BALL. State your name.
Mr. BAKER. T. L. Baker.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. BAKER. Lieutenant, police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. You are up here with Captain Fritz?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you are the man who prepared Commission Document 81-B; is that correct?
Mr. BAKER. I assisted in it, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were sort of the editor, is that right?
Mr. BAKER. Something like that.
Mr. BALL. The question we addressed to Captain Fritz was where was Oswald between the 12:35 and, I believe, 1:10 in the evening, 1:10 a.m., on Saturday, November 23, that is, right after midnight?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; at 12:35 a.m., Lieutenant Knight of the I.D. bureau took him out of the jail on the fifth floor and with the assistance of Sergeant Warren and one of the jailers brought him to the fourth floor where the I.D. bureau was located.
Mr. McCLOY. The I.D. bureau is the identification bureau?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. There in the presence of Sergeant Warren and this jailer, one of his assistants, he was processed through the I.D. bureau, which consists of taking his pictures and fingerprints and making up the different circulars that go to the FBI, and so forth. When they had finished processing him, he returned him to the jail. Lieutenant Knight released him. He was placed back in the jail at 1:10. Approximately 1:30 Sergeant Warren received a call from Chief Curry, advising him to bring him back to the identification bureau the same place, for arraignment. Sergeant Warren and the same jailer returned him to the I.D. bureau, where he was arraigned by Judge Johnston at approximately 1:35 a.m. This arraignment took approximately 10 minutes, and he was returned to the fifth-floor jail by Sergeant Warren at approximately 1:45 a.m.
Mr. BALL. That is all.
Mr. McCLOY. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ RESUMED
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Had you or your office, to your knowledge, ever heard of Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I never heard of him, and I don't believe anyone in my office had ever heard of him, because none of them knew him when we got him. That was our first----
Mr. DULLES. There are no reports; you found no reports in your files?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. About him that antedated November 22, 1963?
Mr. FRITZ. We had no reports on him at all.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever hear of a man named Weissman? Does that mean anything to you, Bernard Weissman?
Mr. FRITZ. The name sounds familiar. I don't know him. I saw that ad that he had in the paper, and had his name signed to it at the bottom.
Mr. McCLOY. But that is all you know about him?
Mr. FRITZ. That is all I know about him.
Mr. McCLOY. Any other questions?
Mr. DULLES. I have no other questions.
Mr. McCLOY. We are through. We thank you very much for your cooperation, Captain.
TESTIMONY OF J. C. DAY
Mr. McCLOY. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DAY. I do.
Mr. BELIN. State your name for the Commission.
Mr. DAY. J. C. Day.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. DAY. Lieutenant, Dallas Police Department assigned to the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. DAY. Fifty.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been associated with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. DAY. Twenty-three years.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. DAY. Through high school.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I went to work for a machinery company there in Dallas for about 9 years before I went with the city.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went there directly to the city?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe your activities from about noon on of that day?
Mr. DAY. I was in the identification bureau at the city hall. About a quarter of one I was in the basement of the city hall, which is three floors under me--actually I am on the fourth floor--and a rumor swept through there that the President had been shot.
I returned to my office to get on the radio and wait for the developments. Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular building at that particular location?
Mr. DAY. The Texas School Book Depository, I believe is the correct name on it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go there?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I went out of my office almost straight up 1 o'clock. I arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. DAY. I was directed to the sixth floor by the police inspector who was at the front door when I arrived.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that was?
Mr. DAY. Inspector Sawyer.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the sixth floor?
Mr. DAY. I had to go up the stairs. The elevator--we couldn't figure out how to run it. When I got to the head of the stairs, I believe it was the patrolman standing there, I am not sure, stated they had found some hulls over in the northeast corner of the building, and I proceeded to that area--excuse me, southeast corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Now, in your 23 years of work for the Dallas Police Department, have you had occasion to spend a good number of these years in crime-scene matters?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long, about?
Mr. DAY. The past 7 years I have been--I have had immediate supervision of the crime-scene search section. It is our responsibility to go to the scene of the crime, take photographs, check for fingerprints, collect any other evidence that might be available, and primarily we are to assist the investigators with certain technical parts of the investigation.
Mr. BELIN. Do you carry any equipment of any kind with you when you go there?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. We have a station wagon equipped with fingerprint equipment, cameras, containers, various other articles that might be needed at the scene of the crime.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any special education or training or background insofar as your crime-scene work is concerned?
Mr. DAY. In the matter of fingerprints, I have been assigned to the identification bureau 15 years. During that time I have attended schools, the Texas Department of Public Safety, on fingerprinting; also an advanced latent-print school conducted in Dallas by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have also had other schooling with the Texas Department of Public Safety and in the local department on crime-scene search and general investigative work.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you said that you were informed when you got there that they had located some hulls?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. DAY. I went to the northeast corner--southeast corner of the building, and first made photographs of the three hulls.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor was this?
Mr. DAY. On the sixth floor. I took photographs of the three hulls as they were found before they were moved.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you some pictures here and ask you to say if these pictures are the photographs you took. First, I will hand you a picture marked "Commission Exhibit 715," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. That is one of the photographs we made of the hulls on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Now, who took the actual picture?
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker; R. L. Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Who is he?
Mr. DAY. At my direction.
Mr. BELIN. Who is he?
Mr. DAY. He is one of the officers who took this under my supervision, and he accompanied me from the office to this building.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see in this picture the location of the hulls?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could take this pen and circle the hulls that you see there.
Mr. McCLOY. I only see two.
Mr. DAY. The other one doesn't show in this picture, I don't believe.
Mr. BELIN. You have circled two hulls that appear to be resting near what would be the south wall of the building; is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see the third hull in that picture?
Mr. DAY. I think you can barely see the tip end of it sticking out there. I believe that is it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle where you think you can see the third tip sticking out? I am now going to hand you what is marked "Commission Exhibit No. 716," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is another view taken from a different angle of the same location. All three hulls are clearly visible here.
Mr. BELIN. Would you circle the three hulls on Exhibit 716? Do you know whether or not Exhibit 716 and Exhibit 715 were taken before these hulls were moved?
Mr. DAY. They were taken before anything was moved, to the best of my knowledge. I was advised when I got there nothing had been moved.
Mr. BELIN. Who so advised you?
Mr. DAY. I believe it was Detective Sims standing there, but I could be wrong about that.
Mr. BELIN. Now, turning again to Exhibit 715, I notice that there is a box in a window which is partially open. I am going to first ask you to state what window this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the south window closest to Houston Street or, in other words, it is the easternmost window on the south side of the building on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Was this window in about the same location with respect to how far it was open at the time you got there?
Mr. DAY. That is the position it was in when I got there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I notice boxes throughout the picture, including the box in the window. To the best of your knowledge, had any of those boxes been moved prior to the time the picture, Exhibit 715, was taken?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; they had not.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to show you a picture which has been identified previously in Commission testimony as Commission Exhibit 482, which purports to have been a picture taken by a newspaper photographer shortly after the assassination, showing the easternmost windows on the south side of the fifth and the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
You will notice there are two Negro males looking out of the lower pair of windows, which would be the fifth-floor windows, and above that there is one window which appears to be open with a box or boxes in it.
I am going to first ask you to state whether or not the boxes in that picture, Exhibit 482, appear to be in the same location as you saw them when you first got on the crime scene.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I believe they are.
Mr. BELIN. Now, as you face the picture, the box to the right, which would be to the east, has a corner sticking out, or just a corner of the box shows. Is that the same box that appears to be resting on the window ledge in Exhibit 715?
Mr. DAY. In my opinion, it is.
Mr. BELIN. I also note there is another box that appears to be in the window on Exhibit 482. Is this box shown at all on either Exhibit 715 or 716, if you know?
Mr. DAY. No; I don't think it is.
Mr. BELIN. What do you think happened to this other box in the window on Exhibit 482?
Mr. DAY. I think the box you see through the window is to the west of the box you see here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing out that the box you see in the window, and you are now pointing to Exhibit 482----
Mr. DAY. I think that is east of the four boxes shown in your No. 715. Well, there are----
Mr. BELIN. Let me give you another question. On Exhibit 715 there is only one box shown in the window actually resting on the ledge, which is the box that you identified the corner out of in the eastern part of the window shown on 482.
Now, what is the fact as to whether or not this other box on 482 would have been resting on the ledge, or is it a pictorial view of something that actually was in back of the window?
Mr. DAY. I think this is one of the boxes 2 feet 11 inches back from the wall. There were two stacks of them, one behind the window sill that you see here.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the window sill between the pair of windows on Exhibit 482?
Mr. DAY. That you can't see in this picture. This one is the other one I am trying to say, this stack here--there are two stacks of boxes here. This one is behind here. You can't see it.
Mr. BELIN. What you are pointing is, as you point to Exhibit 715, you are saying that the tier of boxes which is in the left foreground, if you were standing outside taking a picture, would be hidden by the heavy beam between the windows, but beyond that, to the east of that, there is another tier of boxes of which you think this other box in Exhibit 482 is one; am I correct? Is this correct?
Mr. DAY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Exhibit 716, will you see this at all on Exhibit 716?
Mr. DAY. This is the box, I think, showing here.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to make an X on the box on Exhibit 716 that you think is the other box showing in the window on Exhibit 482?
Mr. DAY. The corner that is showing I don't believe shows in the picture.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You put an X on a box which I would say, looking at this picture, appears to be the fourth box starting from the bottom count, and you believe that is the picture or--that is the box that is shown in the window?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DAY. I don't know what time this was taken. Do you?
Mr. BELIN. Well, you are asking with regard to Exhibit 482? We know it was taken, I would say, not more than a minute after the shooting. This is our best recollection based on testimony of the two people in the window below, because this was their position as they saw the shooting, and the photographer himself says that after the shots were fired, he jumped out of the motorcade and took two shots of the building. This could have been the first or the second shot he took. He used two different cameras, so I don't imagine it would have been very long after the actual shots were fired.
For the record, I should add one other thing at this point. There is testimony by the deputy sheriff that found the shells, that after he found them he leaned out of the window to call down to try and tell someone that he found something, and it is conceivable that he moved a box, although he did not so testify. In other words, I don't want you to take this as the testimony of anyone----
Mr. DAY. What I am getting at, this box doesn't jibe with my picture of the inside.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing now to the other box on Exhibit 482. You say that does not jibe with the chart that you have here that you brought with you of boxes that you had inside.
Let me ask you this: When did you prepare your chart of boxes inside?
Mr. DAY. This chart here was prepared on the 25th. However, pictures were made immediately after my arrival.
Mr. BELIN. You are talking now about Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; don't jibe with that box there.
Mr. BELIN. What I am asking you then is this: Is it possible that the box that is shown on Exhibit 482 is not shown on Exhibit 715 and Exhibit 716? By that I mean not the box that you see a corner of, but I am talking about the other box that is clear to the west of the easternmost window.
Mr. DAY. I just don't know. I can't explain that box there depicted from the outside as related to the pictures that I took inside.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, what you are saying is that on the sixth floor window the westernmost box on Exhibit 482, you cannot then relate to any of the boxes shown on Exhibits 715 or 716?
Mr. DAY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you wish to correct your testimony with regard to the X you placed on the fourth box on the stack in Exhibit 716?
Mr. DAY. Yes; that is just not the same box. It is not the same box. This is the first time I have seen No. 482.
Mr. BELIN. All right. We will substitute for 716 then a copy of the picture without the X mark on it.
Mr. McCLOY. 482 was taken by the news photographer?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Immediately after the shooting?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. The two colored men were still in the position where they were?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. He actually took two pictures. He took one of the building--that showed most of the south side of the building, and another with a different kind of lens that was aimed up to that particular corner. I will check to see if I can find the other picture, Mr McCloy. Commission Exhibit 480 is the first picture that he took, or I shouldn't say the first--one of the two pictures he took.
You can see the southeast corner window on the sixth floor, and I will show you, Lieutenant Day, that you can still see two of those boxes there, and you can see on the window below, at least you can see, one of the Negro men. The other picture was Exhibit 481, and I believe 482 was actually an enlargement of 481.
Mr. DAY. I still don't quite understand that one in relation to pictures here unless something was moved after this was taken before I got there.
Mr. BELIN. What you are saving is on that southeast corner window, on the sixth floor, you do not understand the box that is the westernmost box of the two boxes in the window unless it was moved by someone before you got there to take the pictures?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about the other box as shown on Exhibit 482, does that appear to be in substantially the same position as the box in the window shown on your Exhibit 715?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it appears to be the same.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on Exhibit 715, that box appears to be almost resting against the east part of the window where it does not so appear on Exhibit 482. Is this an optical illusion on 715?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I don't think it was up against the window sill. It was over as indicated on 482.
Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, you took some two pictures of those shell casings. Let me first get you through all the pictures you took.
Where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then?
Mr. DAY. I went, after these were taken--after your number----
Mr. BELIN. 715 and 716.
Mr. DAY. Were taken, I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You have mentioned these three hulls. Did you put any initials on those at all, any means of identification?
Mr. DAY. At that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope marked. The three hulls were not marked at that time. Mr. Sims took possession of them.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you at any time put any mark on the shells?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Let me first hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit," part of "Commission Exhibit 543-544," and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. DAY. This is the envelope the shells were placed in.
Mr. BELIN. How many shells were placed in that envelope?
Mr. DAY. Three.
Mr. BELIN. It says here that, it is written on here, "Two of the three spent hulls under window on sixth floor."
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you put all three there?
Mr. DAY. Three were in there when they were turned over to Detective Sims at that time. The only writing on it was, "Lieut. J. C. Day." Down here at the bottom.
Mr. BELIN. I see.
Mr. DAY. "Dallas Police Department," and the date.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you didn't put the writing in that says, "Two of the three spent hulls."
Mr. DAY. Not then. About 10 o'clock in the evening this envelope came back to me with two hulls in it. I say it came to me, it was in a group of stuff, a group of evidence, we were getting ready to release to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back. Vince Drain, FBI, was present with the stuff, the first I noticed it. At that time there were two hulls inside.
I was advised the homicide division was retaining the third for their use. At that time I marked the two hulls inside of this, still inside this envelope.
Mr. BELIN. That envelope, which is a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I put the additional marking on at that time.
Mr. BELIN. I see.
Mr. DAY. You will notice there is a little difference in the ink writing.
Mr. BELIN. But all of the writing there is yours?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, at what time did you put any initials, if you did put any such initials, on the hull itself?
Mr. DAY. At about 10 o'clock when I noticed it back in the identification bureau in this envelope.
Mr. BELIN. Had the envelope been opened yet or not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it had been opened.
Mr. BELIN. Had the shells been out of your possession then?
Mr. DAY. Mr. Sims had the shells from the time they were moved from the building or he took them from me at that time, and the shells I did not see again until around 10 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. Who gave them to you at 10 o'clock?
Mr. DAY. They were in this group of evidence being collected to turn over to the FBI. I don't know who brought them back.
Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had it been sealed when you gave it to Mr. Sims?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; no.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 545," I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is one of the hulls in the envelope which I opened at 10 o'clock. It has my name written on the end of it.
Mr. BELIN. When you say, on the end of it, where on the end of it?
Mr. DAY. On the small end where the slug would go.
Mr. BELIN. And it has "Day" on it?
Mr. DAY. Scratched on there; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. With what instrument did you scratch it on?
Mr. DAY. A diamond point pencil.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else scratch any initials on it that you know of?
Mr. DAY. I didn't see them. I didn't examine it too close at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is?
Mr. DAY. It is a 6.5.
Mr. BELIN. Is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when you first saw these cartridge cases?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the chain of possession of this shell from the time it was first found until the time it got back to your office?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I told you in our conversation in Dallas that I marked those at the scene. After reviewing my records, I didn't think I was on all three of those hulls that you have, indicating I did not mark them at the scene, then I remembered putting them in the envelope, and Sims taking them.
It was further confirmed today when I noticed that the third hull, which I did not give you, or come to me through you, does not have my mark on it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I did interview you approximately 2 weeks ago in Dallas, more or less?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. At that time what is the fact as to whether or not I went into extended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? I mean, I questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Which one?
Mr. DAY. Wait a minute now. Say that again. I am at a loss.
Mr. BELIN. Maybe it would be easier if I just struck the question and started all over again.
Mr. DAY. I remember you asking me if I marked them.
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. DAY. I remember I told you I did.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DAY. I got to reviewing this, and I got to wondering about whether I did mark those at the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Your testimony now is that you did not mark any of the hulls at the scene?
Mr. DAY. Those three; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that you examined the three shells today?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. While you were waiting to have your testimony taken here?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; that is what confirmed my thinking on this. The envelope now was marked.
Mr. BELIN. And the shells were in the same envelope that it was marked?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to ask you to state if you know what Commission Exhibit 543 is?
Mr. DAY. That is a hull that does not have my marking on it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not this was one of the hulls that was found at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. DAY. I think it is.
Mr. BELIN. What makes you think it is?
Mr. DAY. It has the initials "G. D." on it, which is George Doughty, the captain that I worked under.
Mr. BELIN. Was he there at the scene?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; this hull came up, this hull that is not marked came up, later. I didn't send that.
Mr. BELIN. This was----
Mr. DAY. That was retained. That is the hull that was retained by homicide division when the other two were originally sent in with the gun.
Mr. BELIN. You are referring now to Commission Exhibit 543 as being the one that was retained in your possession for a while?
Mr. DAY. It is the one that I did not see again.
Mr. BELIN. It appears to be flattened out here. Do you know or have you any independent recollection as to whether or not it was flattened out at the small end when you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 544, I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the second hull that was in the envelope when I marked the two hulls that night on November 22.
Mr. BELIN. I have now marked this envelope, which was formerly a part of Commission Exhibits 543 and 544 with a separate Commission Exhibit No. 717, and I believe you testify now that Commission Exhibit 544 was the other shell that was in the envelope which has now been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 717.
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Does that cartridge case, Exhibit 544, have your name on it again?
Mr. DAY. It has my name on the small end where the slug would go into the shell.
Mr. BELIN. Are all of the three shells of the same caliber?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other testimony you have with regard to the cartridge cases themselves?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Can you explain how you processed these shells for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint----
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask before you get to that, is this all your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. The narrative as well as the signature?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this and this. That is not, this is not.
Mr. McCLOY. Who is that, what is that initial, do you know?
Mr. DAY. I think that is Vince Drain, the FBI agent it was released to. It looks like a "V. D." I don't know whether his initial is "E" or not.
Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify those marks up there, what they are?
Mr. DAY. Those "Q" numbers, I believe, are FBI numbers affixed here in Washington.
Mr. BELIN. Returning to Exhibit 717----
Mr. McCLOY. Not returning. That is what that last question was about.
Mr. BELIN. I believe the last questions were the initials on the cartridge cases. Strike the question then.
We will start all over again. On Commission Exhibit No. 717 I see some initials with the notation "11-22-63" in the upper left-hand corner as you take a look at the side which has all of your writing on it here. Do you know whose initials those are?
Mr. DAY. I think it is Vince Drain, FBI, but I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. You think it is the initials of Vincent E. Drain?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I am not sure if his middle initial is "E". I know it is Vince Drain.
Mr. BELIN. Now, on the other side I see some other initials on here with some date and time. Do you know whose initials those are?
Mr. DAY. "R. M. S." stands for R. M. Sims, the detective whom I turned it over to. That is the date and the time that he took it from me.
Mr. BELIN. What date and time does it show?
Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963, 1:23 p.m.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you originally stated that you had all three of these cartridge hulls put in Exhibit 717, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And then you turned it over to Detective Sims?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope sealed when you turned it over to Detective Sims?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. Did you seal it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got the envelope back later that night was the envelope sealed?
Mr. DAY. I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, had it been sealed and reopened or was it just unsealed?
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge it was not sealed. It is possible I could be wrong on that, but I don't think it was sealed.
Mr. McCLOY. In order to make the record perfectly clear, at least my understanding perfectly clear, did I understand that you testified that your initial which appears on that exhibit was--not your initial but your signature which appears on that exhibit was--put on there before the other writing, namely to the effect that there were two of the three hulls enclosed, that was put on the envelope?
Mr. BELIN. You are referring, Mr. McCloy, to the signature on the bottom of Commission Exhibit 717, "Lieutenant J. C. Day."
Mr. McCLOY. That is what I am referring to.
Mr. DAY. That was put on there before.
Mr. McCLOY. That was put on there----
Mr. DAY. At 1:23 p.m.
Mr. BELIN. And the remainder of the writing was put on that night at the Dallas Police Department, is that right?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; about the same time that I marked those two hulls.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. I used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. No legible prints were found.
Mr. BELIN. After you did this, you dusted the prints and you put them in the envelope, 717, and then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I released them to Detective Sims or rather he took them.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. At that time I was summoned to the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. Sir?
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I met Captain Fritz. He wanted photographs of the rifle before it was moved.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if Captain Fritz told you that the rifle had not been moved?
Mr. DAY. He told me he wanted photographs before it was moved, if I remember correctly. He definitely told me it had not been moved, and the reason for the photographs he wanted it photographed before it was moved.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what the reporter has marked or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 718, and ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is a photograph made by me of the rifle where it was found in the northwest portion of the sixth floor, 411 Elm Street, Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 719 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. DAY. It is a picture of the portion of the northwest floor where the rifle was found. This is a distance shot showing the stack of boxes.
Mr. BELIN. Is Commission Exhibit 718 a print from the same negative as Commission Exhibit 514?
Mr. DAY. The same negative?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DAY. No, I don't think so. This is a copy of this picture.
Mr. BELIN. You are saying 514 was made, I assume, as a copy of 718. By that you mean a negative, a second negative, was made of 718 from which 514 was taken?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Otherwise it is the same?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. 718 appears to be a little clearer and sharper.
Mr. DAY. You can tell from looking at the two pictures which is the copy.
Mr. BELIN. Was any other picture of that rifle made in that position?
Mr. DAY. Nos. 22 and 23 were both made.
Mr. BELIN. Your pictures which you have marked No. 22 and No. 23 were both made, one was made by you, is that Commission Exhibit 718----
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And the other was made by----
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Whose knee appears?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; showing. Identical shots, we just made both to be sure that one of us made it, and it would be in focus.
Mr. BELIN. For this reason I am introducing only 718, if that is satisfactory.
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. BELIN. How did you stand to take the picture, Exhibit 718?
Mr. DAY. I was on top of a stack of boxes to the south of where the gun was found.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could put on Exhibit 719 the location with an "X" where you stood to take the picture, 718.
Mr. DAY. I was in that position looking this way, but you can't tell which box I was on looking from that angle.
Mr BELIN. I mean, you have placed an "X" on Exhibit 719. Were you sitting or standing on top of a stack of boxes in that general area?
Mr. DAY. Kneeling.
Mr. BELIN. Kneeling?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction would your face have been?
Mr. DAY. Facing north and down.
Mr. BELIN. Facing north and looking down?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; to the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see the rifle at all in Exhibit 719?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Had the rifle been removed when 719 was taken, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. Could you locate with an arrow on Exhibit 719 the place where the rifle would have been?
Mr. DAY. Here.
Mr. BELIN. You have so noted with an arrow on 719. Was the rifle resting on the floor or not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. It was?
Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you initial that live round at all?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; my name is on it.
Mr. BELIN. When did you place your name on this live round, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. How?
Mr. BELIN. When?
Mr. DAY. At the time, that was marked at the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 141. I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. It has "Day" on it where I scratched it on the small end where the slug goes into the shell.
Mr. BELIN. What is this, what is Exhibit 141?
Mr. DAY. That is the live round that fell from the rifle when Captain Fritz opened the bolt.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with this after you put your name on it?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz took possession of it. I retained possession of the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you process this live round at all for prints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I did. I did not find any prints.
Mr. McCLOY. Before Captain Fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you dust the rifle for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. Not before.
Mr. BELIN. Did you dust the bolt for fingerprints?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Before the live round was ejected?
Mr. DAY. No, no; the only part that Captain Fritz touched was the round nob. I looked at it through a glass and decided there was not a print there, and it would be safe for him to open the bolt.
Mr. BELIN. You did this before it was ejected, before the live round was ejected?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who held the rifle while you looked at it with the glass?
Mr. DAY. I held it.
Mr. BELIN. In one hand?
Mr. DAY. One hand, using the glass with the other.
Mr. BELIN. How did you try to process the live round for prints?
Mr. DAY. With black fingerprint powder.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this in an effort, perhaps, to save time. In all of your processing of prints did you use anything other than this black powder at the scene that day?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. So whenever you say you processed for prints you used black powder, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. When was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder?
Mr. DAY. After ejecting the live round, then I gave my attention to the rifle. I put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the magazine housing. I noticed it was rather rough.
I also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. I told Captain Fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where I would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints.
Mr. McCLOY. But you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on the side of the housing.
Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, as I understand it, you held the stock of the rifle when Captain Fritz operated the bolt?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you first came over to see the rifle, was it easily visible or not?
Mr. DAY. I beg pardon?
Mr. BELIN. When you first came over to see the rifle, when you were first called there, what is the fact as to whether or not it was easily visible?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; you had to look over the box and down to see it. You could not see it ordinarily walking down the aisle.
Mr. BELIN. Was anything resting on top of it?
Mr. DAY. On top of the gun?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate as to how wide or what the width was of that particular area in which the rifle was placed? In other words, the area between the boxes, how much space was there?
Mr. DAY. It was just wide enough to accommodate that rifle and hold it in an upright position.
Mr. BELIN. Was the location at which you found the rifle completely surrounded by boxes or was it kind of like two parallel rows of boxes without boxes at either end of it?
Mr. DAY. There was three or four rows of boxes there.
Mr. BELIN. What I mean is this: If you can visualize a narrow squared "O," was it more like a narrow squared "O" so far as the boxes were concerned, with sort of an island of space in the center or was it more like just two basic rows of boxes with nothing at either end?
Mr. DAY. I don't quite follow you there.
Mr. BELIN. I will restate the question this way.
Mr. DAY. There were four parallel lines of boxes. The second line from the north side was not completely filled. In other words, there was vacant places in this particular line.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 139 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Store at 411 Elm Street, November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. What date?
Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have any identification mark of yours on it?
Mr. DAY. It has my name "J. C. Day" scratched on the stock.
Mr. BELIN. And on the stock you are pointing to your name which is scratched as you would hold the rifle and rest it on the stock, approximately an inch or so from the bottom of the stock on the sling side of the stock, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection as to what the serial number was of that?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I recorded it at the time, C-2566.
Mr. BELIN. Before you say that----
Mr. DAY. C-2766, excuse me.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any record of that with you or not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; this is the record I made of the gun when I took it back to the office. Now, the gun did not leave my possession.
Mr. BELIN. From the time it was found at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where I dictated----
Mr. BELIN. Could you just read into the record what you dictated.
Mr. DAY. To my secretary. She wrote on the typewriter: "4 x 18, coated, Ordinance Optics, Inc., Hollywood, California, 010 Japan. OSC inside a clover-leaf design."
Mr. BELIN. What did that have reference to?
Mr. DAY. That was stamped on the scopic sight on top of the gun. On the gun itself, "6.5 caliber C-2766, 1940 made in Italy." That was what was on the gun.
I dictated certain other stuff, other information, for her to type for me.
Mr. BELIN. Well, you might just as well dictate the rest there.
Mr. DAY. "When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what other processing you did with this particular rifle?
Mr. DAY. Beg pardon?
Mr. BELIN. What other processing did you do with this particular rifle?
Mr. DAY. I took it to the office and tried to bring out the two prints I had seen on the side of the gun at the bookstore. They still were rather unclear. Due to the roughness of the metal, I photographed them rather than try to lift them.
I could also see a trace of a print on the side of the barrel that extended under the woodstock. I started to take the woodstock off and noted traces of a palmprint near the firing end of the barrel about 3 inches under the woodstock when I took the woodstock loose.
Mr. BELIN. You mean 3 inches from the small end of the woodstock?
Mr. DAY. Right--yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. From the firing end of the barrel, you mean the muzzle?
Mr. DAY. The muzzle; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Let me clarify the record. By that you mean you found it on the metal or you mean you found it on the wood?
Mr. DAY. On the metal, after removing the wood.
Mr. BELIN. The wood. You removed the wood, and then underneath the wood is where you found the print?
Mr. DAY. On the bottom side of the barrel which was covered by the wood, I found traces of a palmprint. I dusted these and tried lifting them, the prints, with scotch tape in the usual manner. A faint palmprint came off.
I could still see traces of the print under the barrel and was going to try to use photography to bring off or bring out a better print. About this time I received instructions from the chief's office to go no further with the processing, it was to be released to the FBI for them to complete. I did not process the underside of the barrel under the scopic sight, did not get to this area of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what Commission Exhibit No. 637 is?
Mr. DAY. This is the trace of palmprint I lifted off of the barrel of the gun after I had removed the wood.
Mr. BELIN. Does it have your name on it or your handwriting?
Mr. DAY. It has the name "J. C. Day," and also "11/22/63" written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. When you lift a print is it then harder to make a photograph of that print after it is lifted or doesn't it make any difference?
Mr. DAY. It depends. If it is a fresh print, and by fresh I mean hadn't been there very long and dried, practically all the print will come off and there will be nothing left. If it is an old print, that is pretty well dried, many times you can still see it after the lift. In this case I could still see traces of print on that barrel.
Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything with the other prints or partial prints that you said you thought you saw?
Mr. DAY. I photographed them only. I did not try to lift them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have those photographs, sir? I will mark the two photographs which you have just produced Commission Exhibits 720 and 721. I will ask you to state what these are.
Mr. DAY. These are prints or pictures, I should say, of the latent--of the traces of prints on the side of the magazine housing of the gun No. C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Were those prints in such condition as to be identifiable, if you know?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I could not make positive identification of these prints.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have enough opportunity to work and get these pictures or not?
Mr. DAY. I worked with them, yes. I could not exclude all possibility as to identification. I thought I knew which they were, but I could not positively identify them.
Mr. BELIN. What was your opinion so far as it went as to whose they were?
Mr. DAY. They appeared to be the right middle and right ring finger of Harvey Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you had this did you have any comparison fingerprints to make with the actual prints of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; we had sets in Captain Fritz' office. Oswald was in his custody, we had made palmprints and fingerprints of him.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other processing that you did with the rifle?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. At what time, if you know, did you release the rifle to the FBI?
Mr. DAY. 11:45 p.m. the rifle was released or picked up by them and taken from the office.
Mr. BELIN. Was that on November 22?
Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. At what time did these same photographs which are the same as Commission Exhibit 720 and 721 of this print----
Mr. DAY. About 8 o'clock, somewhere around 8 o'clock, in that neighborhood.
Mr. BELIN. Of what date?
Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. What about the lift which has previously been marked as Commission Exhibit 637?
Mr. DAY. About what?
Mr. BELIN. When did you turn that over to the FBI?
Mr. DAY. I released that to them on November 26, 1963. I did not release this----
Mr. BELIN. You are referring now----
Mr. DAY. On November 22.
Mr. BELIN. You are referring to Commission Exhibit 637?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why this was not released on the 22d?
Mr. DAY. The gun was being sent in to them for process of prints. Actually I thought the print on the gun was their best bet, still remained on there, and, too, there was another print, I thought possibly under the wood part up near the trigger housing.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the remaining traces of the powder you had when you got the lift, Exhibit 637, is that what you mean by the lift of the remaining print on the gun?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. Actually it was dried ridges on there. There were traces of ridges still on the gun barrel.
Mr. BELIN. Can you tell the circumstances under which you sent Exhibit 637 to the FBI?
Mr. DAY. We released certain evidence to the FBI, including the gun, on November 22. It was returned to us on November 24. Then on November 26 we received instructions to send back to the FBI everything that we had.
Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; and at that time I sent the lift marked----
Mr. BELIN. 637.
Mr. DAY. Yes. The gun was sent back again, and all of the other evidence that I had, including cartons from Texas Bookstore, and various other items, a rather lengthy list.
Mr. BELIN. Had the FBI in the interim returned the gun to you then after you sent it to them on November 22?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When the rifle was photographed, as I understand it, you were the one who lifted it out of there, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it wedged in very tight or could you readily lift it up without moving any boxes?
Mr. DAY. It came out without moving any boxes. It wasn't wedged in.
Mr. McCLOY. Am I to understand your testimony, Lieutenant, about the fingerprints to be you said you were positive--you couldn't make a positive identification, but it was your opinion that these were the fingerprints of Lee Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Well, actually in fingerprinting it either is or is not the man. So I wouldn't say those were his prints. They appeared similar to these two, certainly bore further investigation to see if I could bring them out better. But from what I had I could not make a positive identification as being his prints.
Mr. McCLOY. How about the palmprint?
Mr. DAY. The palmprint again that I lifted appeared to be his right palm, but I didn't get to work enough on that to fully satisfy myself it was his palm. With a little more work I would have come up with the identification there.
Mr. BELIN. Lieutenant Day, what is the fact as to whether or not palmprints are a sound means of identification of an individual?
Mr. DAY. You have the same characteristics of the palms that you do the fingers, also on the soles of feet. They are just as good for identification purposes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you did in connection with the rifle, the cartridges, the live cartridge, or the taking of prints from any of these metallic objects that you haven't talked about yet?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I believe that is the extent of the prints on any of those articles.
Mr. BELIN. Did you make a positive identification of any palmprint or fingerprint?
Mr. DAY. Not off the rifle or slug at that time.
Mr, BELIN. At any other time did you off the rifle or the slugs?
Mr. DAY. After I have been looking at that thing again here today, that is his right palm. But at that time I had not no----
Mr. BELIN. When you are saying you looked at that thing today, to what are you referring?
Mr. DAY. Your No. 637 is the right palm of Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked "Exhibit 629" I ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. That is the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know where this print was taken?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it was taken by Detective J. B. Hicks in Captain Fritz' office on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take more than one right palmprint on that day, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; we took two, actually we took three. Two of them were taken in Captain Fritz' office, and one set which I witnessed taking myself in the identification bureau.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took more than one?
Mr. DAY. In most cases, when making comparisons, we will take at least two to insure we have a good clear print of the entire palm.
Mr. BELIN. Now, based----
Mr. DAY. One might be smeared where the other would not.
Mr. BELIN. Based on your experience, I will ask you now for a definitive statement as to whether or not you can positively identify the print shown on Commission Exhibit 637 as being from the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald as shown on Commission Exhibit 629?
Mr. DAY. Maybe I shouldn't absolutely make a positive statement without further checking that. I think it is his, but I would have to sit down and take two glasses to make an additional comparison before I would say absolutely, excluding all possibility, it is. I think it is, but I would have to do some more work on that.
Mr. BELIN. Could you do that here in Washington before you go back, sir, or would this necessitate going back to Dallas?
Mr. DAY. If I had the proper equipment I think I could do it here. I don't have very good equipment for making comparisons here. I need two fingerprint glasses.
It was my understanding the prints had been identified by the FBI. I don't have official word on it.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing that you did with regard to the rifle that you haven't discussed this far that you can remember right now?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; I released it to the FBI then, and they took possession of it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear this rifle referred to as a 7.65 Mauser or as any type of a Mauser?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it wasn't referred to as that. Some of the newsmen, when I first carried the rifle out, asked me if it was a .30-06, and at another time they asked me if it was a Mauser. I did not give them an answer.
Mr. BELIN. Were there newsmen on the sixth floor at the time the rifle was found, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I think there was.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever describe the rifle as anything but a 6.5-caliber with regard to the rifle itself?
Mr. DAY. I didn't describe the rifle to anyone other than police officers.
Mr. BELIN. Is the description that you used with the police officers the same that you dictated here into the record from your notes?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else with regard to the rifle?
Mr. DAY. I can't think of anything else that I did with it at the time.
I don't know whether you are interested in this or not, but about, it must have been about 8:30 I was processing the gun on the fourth floor----
Mr. BELIN. Of the police department there?
Mr. DAY. Of the police department where my office is. The identification bureau. And Captain Fritz came up and said he had Mrs. Oswald in his office on the third floor, but the place was so jammed with news cameramen and newsmen he did not want to bring her out into it.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the wife or the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. DAY. That was Marina, Oswald's wife. She had her baby with her, or babies, and there was an interpreter down there. He wanted her to look at the gun to see if she could identify it, didn't want to bring her in through the crowd, and wanted to know if we could carry it down. He said, "There is an awful mob down there."
I explained to him that I was still working with the prints, but I thought I could carry it down without disturbing the prints, which I did.
We waded through the mob with me holding the gun up high. No one touched it. Several of the newsmen asked me various questions about what the gun was at that time. I did not give them an answer.
When I went back to the office after Marina Oswald viewed the gun, they still were hounding me for it. I told them to check with the chief's office, he would have to give them the information, and as soon as I got back to my office I gave a complete description, and so forth, to Captain King on the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when Marina Oswald was asked whether or not she could identify it?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. But I didn't understand what she said. I was standing across the room from her where I couldn't understand. The interpreter said something to her and said something to Captain Fritz. I didn't catch what was said. I mentioned that because there was some talk about a Mauser and .30-06 at the time and various other things, that is the reason I mentioned it.
Mr. BELIN. You just refused to answer all questions on that, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. It wasn't my place to give them that information. I didn't know whether they wanted it out yet or not.
Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do, or what was the next thing you did after you completed photographing and inspecting the rifle on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building for whatever prints you could find, what did you do next?
Mr. DAY. I took the gun at the time to the office and locked it up in a box in my office at Captain Fritz' direction.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I went back to the School Book Depository and stayed there. It was around three that I got back, and I was in that building until about 6, directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back, what photographs did you take?
Mr. DAY. We went, made the outside photographs of the street, we made more photographs inside, and did further checking for prints by using dust on the boxes around the window.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as "Commission Exhibit 722" and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is a view of Houston Street looking south from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when that was taken?
Mr. DAY. About 3 or 3:15, somewhere along there, on November 22, 1963.
Mr. McCLOY. You say from the sixth floor; was it from the farthest east window?
Mr. DAY. The south window on the east end of the building.
Mr. BELIN. You don't mean that. State that again. What side of the building was the window on?
Mr. DAY. It was on the south side of the building, the easternmost window.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you took Exhibit 722 had any boxes been moved at all?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Here is Exhibit 724, and I will ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. DAY. This is a view from the same window looking southwest down Elm Street. Actually this is the direction the shots were fired. When this picture was made----
Mr. BELIN. When you say this picture you are referring to--I think I have skipped a number here.
Mr. McCLOY. This is 722.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When 722 was made, you----
Mr. DAY. I did not know the direction the shots had been fired.
Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to hand you what I have already marked as 724. What about that one?
Mr. DAY. This was made, 724 was made, some 15 to 20 minutes after 722 when I received information that the shooting actually occurred on Elm rather than Houston Street. The boxes had been moved at that time.
Mr. BELIN. In 724 there are boxes in the window. Were those boxes in the window the way you saw them, or had they been replaced in the window to reconstruct it?
Mr. DAY. They had simply been moved in the processing for prints. They weren't put back in any particular order.
Mr. BELIN. So 724 does not represent, so far as the boxes are concerned, the crime scene when you first came to the sixth floor; is that correct?
Mr. DAY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Had all of the boxes of the stack in 724 been replaced there or had any of the boxes been in a position they were at the time you first arrived at the building, if you know?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; they had not been placed in the proper position or approximate position at the time we arrived.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am going to hand you what I will mark as "723" and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. 726----
Mr. BELIN. No; 723.
Mr. DAY. 723 is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Who took that picture, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Detective Studebaker.
Mr. BELIN. Was it taken under your direction and supervision, Mr. Day?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; I was present. The two metal boxes you will note to the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the picture with a wide-angle lens camera.
Mr. BELIN. When you say to the left----
Mr. DAY. To the right.
Mr. BELIN. You mean as you face the picture to the right.
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to circle on Exhibit 723 your fingerprint equipment?
Mr. DAY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I will ask you to state if you know if this picture was taken before any of the boxes shown on 723 were moved.
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge they had not been moved.
Mr. BELIN. And straight ahead the camera is pointed toward it?
Mr. DAY. To the south.
Mr. BELIN. At which window?
Mr. DAY. Toward the window where the hulls were found.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as "725," and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. That is a view of the same window as 723 except it shows the full length of the aisle.
Mr. BELIN. Was 725 taken before the boxes were moved, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I beg your pardon?
Mr. BELIN. Was Commission Exhibit 725 taken before any boxes were moved, if you know?
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge, nothing had been moved.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as 726 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the next aisle over, or the next aisle west of the aisle shown in 723. Actually, this was taken on November 25. Some movement had been made of the boxes as shown in 723.
Mr. BELIN. All right. So you now are saying Commission Exhibit 726 was taken on November 25----
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And there had been some movement of the boxes?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Generally did it depict the area as you saw it on November 22?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you Commission Exhibit 727 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. DAY. 727 is the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, taken looking east along the inside of the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. When was that taken?
Mr. DAY. November 25, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Just by general means of identification, perhaps it might help to see when some pictures were taken and some pictures were not taken. I think you can see on Exhibit 727 that the shadows show that the sun would not as yet have reached a due south position. Is that correct?
Mr. DAY. That is correct. It was taken in the morning. This is the morning shadow.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked 728, would you state if you know what this is?
Mr. DAY. This is the third aisle from the east side of the building, sixth floor, Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Was that taken on November 22 or November 25?
Mr. DAY. It was taken on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Again you can note the shadows at this time, and it would appear as a southwesterly sun.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I notice a pop bottle there. Do you know whether or not that pop bottle was there at the time you got to the scene?
Mr. DAY. It was, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it in the same relation as that two-wheeler cart, if you know?
Mr. DAY. To the best of my knowledge nothing had been moved there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else with the pop bottle when you were in that area?
Mr. DAY. There was a brown-paper sack, like a lunch sack.
Mr. BELIN. About how large?
Mr. DAY. It does not show in the picture.
Mr. BELIN. Where would the sack have been located?
Mr. DAY. Sir?
Mr. BELIN. Where would that sack have been located, if you know?
Mr. DAY. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been at the third pair of windows counting from the east; when you meant the third aisle, did you mean the third set of windows also?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You mentioned a sack that would have been at that third aisle. Was any kind of a sack found on the sixth floor, if you know?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What other kind of a sack was found?
Mr. DAY. A homemade sack, brown paper with 3-inch tape found right in the corner, the southeast corner of the building near where the slugs were found.
Mr. McCLOY. Near where the hulls were found?
Mr. DAY. Near where the hulls. What did I say?
Mr. McCLOY. Slugs.
Mr. DAY. Hulls.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 729 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. 729 is a photograph of the inside wall, south and east walls, right at the corner of the building at the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. I notice some pipes on the right portion of this picture as you face it, and I also notice a box.
I will first ask you to state if this picture was taken before or after anything was removed from the area.
Mr. DAY. The sack had been removed.
Mr. BELIN. Had any change been made of the position of that box that is set off by itself in the center of the picture?
Mr. DAY. I don't think the box--well, it is possible the box had been moved. This is an approximate position of it. The box had been dusted for powder and--dusted for prints. The black powder is visible on it. It is possible the box may have been moved a tiny bit.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the sack found with relation to the pipes and that box?
Mr. DAY. Between the sack and the south wall, which would be the wall at the top of the picture as shown here.
Mr. BELIN. You mean between--you said the sack.
Mr. DAY. I mean the pipe. The sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. That wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall.
Mr. BELIN. Did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. It was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142.
Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any identification on that to so indicate?
Mr. DAY. It has my name on it, and it also has other writing that I put on there for the information of the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you wrote on there?
Mr. DAY. "Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day."
Mr. BELIN. When did you write that?
Mr. DAY. I wrote that at the time the sack was found before it left our possession.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that you wrote on there?
Mr. DAY. When the sack was released on November 22 to the FBI about 11:45 p.m., I put further information to the FBI reading as follows: "FBI: Has been dusted with metallic magnetic powder on outside only. Inside has not been processed. Lieut. J. C. Day."
Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?
Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?
Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know by what means they found these?
Mr. DAY. It is apparently silver nitrate. It could be another compound they have used. The sack had an orange color indicating it was silver nitrate.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the sack when it came back from the FBI had a----
Mr. DAY. Orange color. It is another method of processing paper for fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inside the bag, if you know, when you found it?
Mr. DAY. I did not open the bag. I did not look inside of the bag at all.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it?
Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?
Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.
Mr. BELIN. By this you are referring to the bag itself?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get the kind of sample used at the School Book Depository?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. I had the bag listed as----
Mr. BELIN. Commission Exhibit 626 or 142.
Mr. DAY. On the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository, and I noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape--as of the same width as this. I took the bag over and tried it, and I noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag.
Mr. BELIN. Did it appear to have the same color?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. Sir?
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I directed one of the officers standing by me, I don't know which, to get a piece of the tape and a piece of the paper from the wrapping bench.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 677, I will ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the tape and paper collected from the first floor in the shipping department of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does this have any identification marks on it?
Mr. DAY. It has my name, "J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department," and also in my writing. "Shipping Department."
Mr. BELIN. Any other writing on there that you recognize?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; Detective Studebaker, who was with me, and in his writing it says. "Paper sample from first floor, Texas School Book Depository, Studebaker, 11-22-63."
The tape also has Studebaker's writing on it, "Tape sample from first floor."
Mr. BELIN. I will ask you to state if you know what are Exhibits 730, 731 and 732?
Mr. DAY. These are photographs of the wrapping bench on the first floor, Texas School Book Depository, taken by me on April 13, 1964, after I had talked to you when I was back in the building. I didn't have a previous picture of this wrapping bench.
Mr. BELIN. Does that represent the location on the first floor of the School Book Depository Building where you got the tape sample, Commission Exhibit 677?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it is approximately the same. I do not think the benches had been changed since the November shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits the actual tape machine that was used?
Mr. DAY. The one that we removed this from was the north roll and tape on the east side of the bench.
Mr. BELIN. You are now pointing at Exhibit 730. I notice a roll of paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. Is that where you got the big paper, the main paper on Commission Exhibit 677?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. To the best of my knowledge that is the roll we tore the paper off of.
Mr. BELIN. What about tape itself?
Mr. DAY. The tape was from the machine immediately above that roll of paper on top of the bench.
Mr. BELIN. Were there other tape machines there also?
Mr. DAY. Yes; but I didn't notice them at the time.
Mr. BELIN. How did you get the tape from out of the machine, if you remember?
Mr. DAY. Just pulled the tape off and tear it out and tear it off.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a lever at all that you used, if you remember if there is such a lever?
Mr. DAY. I don't remember. I don't think we used the lever.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with Commission Exhibit 677?
Mr. DAY. I released this, I released 677 to Vince Drain of the FBI, 11:45 p.m., November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 733 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the southeast corner of the sixth floor at the window where the shooting apparently occurred. The boxes in front of the window, to the best of our knowledge, in the position they were in when we arrived there on November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. So 733 represents a reconstruction in that sense, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit----
Mr. DAY. This, by the way, was taken on November 25, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What about 734?
Mr. DAY. That is another view of the same boxes shown in 733.
Mr. BELIN. In 734 you can also see this juncture of the south and east walls of the sixth floor where you say the bag was found; is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I want to turn for the moment to 729. I notice that the box on 729 appears to have a portion of it torn off and then replaced again. Is this correct or not?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 649 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. This is a portion torn from the box shown in 729.
Mr. BELIN. While you are holding that I'm going to hand you Commission Exhibit 648 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. That is the box shown in 729 at the center of the picture.
Mr. BELIN. Is that the box, 648, from which 649 was torn?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. BELIN. Could you relate what transpired to cause 649 to be torn from 648?
Mr. DAY. After I returned to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository after delivering the gun to my office, we processed the boxes in that area, in the area of the window where the shooting apparently occurred, with powder. This particular box was processed and a palmprint, a legible palmprint, developed on the northwest corner of the box, on the top of the box as it was sitting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you developed this print?
Mr. DAY. I placed a piece of transparent tape, ordinary Scotch tape, which we use for fingerprint work, over the developed palmprint.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. I tore the cardboard from the box that contained the palmprint.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. DAY. The box was left in its position, but the palmprint was taken by me to the identification bureau.
Mr. BELIN. Did you make any identification of it?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. Later that night when I had a chance to get palmprints from Lee Harvey Oswald. I made a comparison with the palmprint off of the box, your 729, and determined that the palmprint on the box was made by the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Did you make any identification on Exhibit 649 which would indicate that this is the palmprint you took?
Mr. DAY. It has in my writing, "From top of box Oswald apparently sat on to fire gun. Lieut. J. C. Day," and it is marked "right palm of Oswald. Lieut. J. C. Day."
There is also an arrow indicating north and where the palmprint was found. It further has Detective Studebaker's name on it, and he also wrote on there, "From top of box subject sat on."
Mr. BELIN. Now, when was that placed on that exhibit, that writing of yours, when was it placed on there?
Mr. DAY. It was placed on there November 22, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Can you identify by any way Commission Exhibit 648?
Mr. DAY. This has my name "J. C. Day" written on it. It also has "R. L. Studebaker" written on it. It has written in the corner in my writing, "Southwest corner box 18 inches from wall."
Mr. BELIN. I also see the name "W. H. Shelley" written on there. Do you know when this was put on?
Mr. DAY. W. H. Shelley is the assistant manager apparently of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did he put it on at the time you found the box?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.