Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 13 (part 3 of 3)

Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 13 (part 3 of 3)

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What difference is there between the situation as shown by this map, and the German declaration of a blockade of 17 August 1940?

That is, Mr. President, the declaration I have submitted as Dönitz-104, which can be found on Page 214 in Volume IV of the document book.

WAGNER: As far as the limits of the danger zone are concerned, there was really no difference. This fact was also stated by Prime Minister Churchill in the House of Commons at the time. However, the difference which did exist was that up to that time we confined ourselves to the area I have just described, near the British Coast, whereas now we considered the entire U.S.A. combat zone as an operational zone.

The declaration regarding a blockade was based on the fact that in the meantime France had been eliminated from the war, and that Britain now was the focal point of all belligerent action.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the German blockade zone in its entirety correspond exactly or more or less with the U.S.A. combat zone?

WAGNER: It was nearly exactly the same as the U.S.A. combat zone. There were merely a few insignificant corrections.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I am submitting another sea-chart as Dönitz-92, in which...

THE PRESIDENT: I think perhaps that would be a good time to break off then.

[A recess was taken.]

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now, Mr. President, as Dönitz-94, I submit a chart of the German blockade zone dated 17 August.

Admiral Wagner, just for the sake of repeating, what were the limits of the German blockade region in relation to the U.S. fighting zone?

THE PRESIDENT: I thought you had already told us that. You told us that the blockade zone was the same as the American zone, didn’t you?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, Mr. President, I thought that we had not been understood quite correctly before the recess.

[Turning to the witness.] What was the naval practice of the enemy as far as this operational zone was concerned? Was there any practice that they followed?

WAGNER: Yes, the practice on the part of the enemy was identical with ours. In the areas controlled by us in the Baltic, in the eastern part of the North Sea, around Skagerrak and later on in the Norwegian and French waters, the enemy used every suitable weapon without giving previous warning, without notifying us in advance by which means of combat other ships were to be sunk—submarines, mines, aircraft, or surface vessels. In these regions the same thing applied to neutrals, and especially to Sweden.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now, I would like to confront you with a statement by the First Lord of the British Admiralty. You will find this on Page 208 of the document book, Volume IV. This statement is dated 8 May 1940, and I have ascertained, Mr. President, that unfortunately it is wrongly reproduced in the British document book; so I shall quote from the original.

“Therefore we limited our operations in the Skagerrak to the submarines. In order to make this work as effective as possible, the usual restrictions which we have imposed on the actions of our submarines were relaxed. As I told the House, all German ships by day and all ships by night were to be sunk as opportunity served.”

I should like to submit this as Exhibit Dönitz-102.

THE PRESIDENT: What is the difference that you were making in the copy we have before us—“...all ships were to be sunk by day and German ships by night...” Is that it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, Mr. President. It should be corrected to read, “all German ships by day and all ships by night were to be sunk.”

THE PRESIDENT: I see; I said it wrong—“and all ships by night.” Yes, very well.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Wagner, what was the significance of this statement and this practice so far as the German ships were concerned?

WAGNER: It means that all German ships by day and by night in this area were to be sunk without warning.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what does it mean for the neutral ships?

WAGNER: It means that without warning all neutral ships in this area by night...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, surely the document speaks for itself. We don’t need to have it interpreted by a witness who isn’t a lawyer.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Very well.

[Turning to the witness.] Then, tell me, please, from what period of time onward, according to German experiences, did this practice exist in the Skagerrak?

WAGNER: With certainty from 8 April 1940, but I believe I recall that even on 7 April this practice was already in existence.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Had this area at this period of time, that is, the 7th or 8th of April, already been declared a danger zone?

WAGNER: No, the first declaration of danger zone for this area took place on 12 April 1940.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now I shall have a sea-chart handed to you dealing with the British danger zones, and this shall be Dönitz-92. Please explain the significance of this chart briefly to the Tribunal.

WAGNER: This chart shows the danger zones in European waters as declared by England on the basis of German data. The following areas are of special significance:

First of all, the area in the Bay of Helgoland which on 4 September 1939, that is, on the second day of the war, was declared dangerous. Then the afore-mentioned danger zone, Skagerrak and the area south of Norway, which was declared on 12 April 1940. Then the danger zone in the Baltic, on 14 April 1940; and following upon that, the other danger zones as declared in the course of the year 1940.

I should like to remark also that, according to my recollection, these danger zones were all declared mine danger zones, with the exception of the Channel zone and of the Bay of Biscay, on 17 August 1940. These were generally dangerous zones.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were these areas actually dominated by the British sea and air forces, or did German traffic still continue?

WAGNER: In these areas there was even very lively German traffic. Thus the Baltic Sea, which in its entire expanse from East to West, about 400 nautical miles in length, had been declared a danger zone, was in reality controlled by us during the entire war. In this area there was an extensive freight traffic, the entire ore traffic from Sweden and the corresponding exports to Sweden.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was there only traffic of German ships or also of neutral ships?

WAGNER: This traffic was in German and Swedish ships, but other neutrals also participated in this traffic, for instance, Finland. A similar situation applied in the Skagerrak where, besides the German supply traffic, a large part of the foodstuffs for the Norwegian population was transported. Of course, during this time both German and neutral ships were lost.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I assume, therefore, that both German and neutral seamen lost their lives. Is that correct?

WAGNER: Of course, personnel losses took place as well.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were the German merchantmen, at the time when these operational zones were declared, armed—that is, at the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940?

WAGNER: Until the middle of 1940 German merchantmen were not at all armed. From then on they were comparatively slightly armed, especially with antiaircraft weapons.

Transport ships of the Navy had always been armed, that is, government ships, which supplied German cruisers and auxiliary cruisers in the Atlantic.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now I shall submit to you a document of the Prosecution, Exhibit GB-193, which is found in the Prosecution’s document book on Page 29. This document deals with a proposal by the Commander of the U-boats that “...in the Channel, ships with blacked-out lights may be sunk without warning.” Can you tell me just whose ideas we are dealing with in the statements set forth in this document?

WAGNER: From the signature found in this document it appears that we are concerned with a document by a U-boat expert in the Naval Operations Staff.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Who was that?

WAGNER: Lieutenant Fresdorf, who was my subordinate.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Are these statements in accord with the actual circumstances and were they approved by the Naval Operations Staff, or just what was the situation?

WAGNER: Here we are concerned with the rather romantic ideas of a young expert, ideas which were in no way commensurate with the situation. The situation was rather as follows: At this time, that is, in September 1939, the second wave of the British Expeditionary Corps left England for France. The transports ran mostly during the night and were blacked out. At this same time an order existed according to which French ships were neither to be stopped nor attacked; this was still in force for political reasons.

It is quite obvious that at night a blacked-out French ship cannot be told from a blacked-out English ship, just as at night a merchant ship cannot, or only with difficulty, be told from a warship.

These orders, therefore, meant that at night, in order to avoid a mistake, practically no shooting could be done, and therefore the English troop transport was entirely unhampered. This brought about really grotesque situations. It was ascertained that a German U-boat in a favorable position of attack let a fully-loaded English troop transport ship of 20,000 tons pass by, since there was the possibility of making a mistake. The Naval Operations Staff agreed completely with the commanders of the U-boats that no naval war could be carried on in this manner. If a blacked-out ship sails in a belligerent area, better still, in an area where there is a large supply and troop transport traffic, it is liable to suspicion and cannot expect the war to be halted at night for its sake.

Therefore it was not a question of our explaining or excusing ourselves for sinking a ship without warning because we had mistaken it, but the obvious fact at hand was that the blacked-out ship alone was to blame if it was not properly recognized and was sunk without warning.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In these notes we find that the commanders of U-boats, when sinking a merchant ship without warning, were required to make the notation in their log that they had taken it for a warship and that an order, a verbal order, to this effect was to be given to the commanders of the U-boats. Is that correct, and was it done in actual practice?

WAGNER: No, we never did anything like that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was the Flag Officer of the U-boats given strict and clear orders that blacked-out ships at night in the Channel might be attacked without warning?

WAGNER: Yes. This clear order was issued, but nothing more.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: If the statements of this young officer are not correct, and if no orders were issued accordingly, how is it that these things can be found in the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: This paper is not a direct part of the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff. The War Diary itself, in which the daily happenings were recorded, was signed by me, by the Chief of Staff of the Naval Operations Staff, and by the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Here we are concerned with the entry of an expert which was destined for a file collection and motivated by the War Diary.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That means, then, that the considerations and opinions of experts were collected and filed no matter whether they were approved of or put into actual practice?

WAGNER: Yes. All of these files were collected for later purposes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the Naval Operations Staff receive news of the incidents which happened after the sinking of the Laconia, and did it approve of the measures taken by the Commander of the U-boats?

WAGNER: The Naval Operations Staff, then as always, listened in on all the wireless messages of the Commander-in-Chief in the Laconia case. It approved of the measures taken by him, but it would not have been at all surprised if the Commander of the U-boats had stopped the entire rescue work at the very first air attack upon the U-boats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the Naval Operations Staff know of the order of the Commander of the U-boats, dated 17 September, in which rescue work by U-boats was expressly prohibited?

WAGNER: This order given by the Commander of the U-boats was also heard by wireless.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was this order interpreted by the Naval Operations Staff to the effect that it was to be an order for the shooting of shipwrecked people?

WAGNER: No; no one ever had this idea.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, at this point I should like to put several questions to the witness which have a bearing on the credibility of the statements made by the witness Heisig. But I should like to ask in advance whether there are any objections to my putting these questions, since my documents referring to the witness Heisig were not ruled admissible.

THE PRESIDENT: Was the object of the questions which you were offering to put to this witness to show that the witness Heisig was not a witness who could be believed upon his oath? Was that your object?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The general object is to show how the testimony of this witness originated; that is, the testimony which was submitted to the Court.

THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by “originated”?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That is to say, what influence on the witness Heisig forms the basis of this testimony.

THE PRESIDENT: What is the exact question you wanted to ask? You may state it, and we will let the witness wait until we have seen what the question is.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I should like to ask the witness, “Did the witness Heisig report to you about the manner in which his affidavit, which was submitted to the High Tribunal as evidence by the Prosecution, originated?”

THE PRESIDENT: The question that you put, as I took it down, was: What did the witness Heisig report to you about the way his affidavit came about? Is that the question?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, Your Honor.

THE PRESIDENT: What are you purporting to prove by getting the reports that Heisig may have made to this witness?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I should like to prove therewith, Mr. President, that Heisig was under a certain influence, that is, that he wrongly assumed that he could help a comrade through his testimony.

THE PRESIDENT: Who applied for Heisig’s affidavit?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I did not understand, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Heisig has given an affidavit, has he not?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: That was for the Prosecution, was it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That is right.

THE PRESIDENT: And have you asked to cross-examine him?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I interrogated him about this affidavit, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: You did?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, I did question him; and I called his attention to the contradictions between his affidavit and his testimony here in Court.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I have not read the transcript on this point for about 10 days. But I did read it then, and my recollection is that it was never suggested to the witness Heisig that he gave his affidavit under pressure, which I gather is the suggestion now. Your Lordship will remember that although we had the affidavit, we called the witness Heisig. He said that what was in his affidavit was true; and then he gave his evidence, giving a detailed account of all the relevant matters. So we made it perfectly possible for Dr. Kranzbühler to cross-examine him at the time and to show any differences, as Dr. Kranzbühler just said he purported to do, between the affidavit and his oral evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler has just said, I think, that he did actually cross-examine him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: He did cross-examine him on that point—on any differences that appeared between his affidavit and his oral testimony. But he was here to be cross-examined, and if it is going to be suggested that the affidavit was obtained by improper means, that suggestion ought to have been made at the time, and then it could have been dealt with.

My Lord, I object to its coming in at this stage, after the witness Heisig has been away, and therefore no opportunity has been given to us either to investigate the matter or to have the evidence there, which could have been done when Heisig gave his evidence; and we could have been prepared for any contradictory evidence now.

My Lord, as a matter of strictness, surely, if I may put it that way, there are two distinct lines. If it was a question of whether Heisig’s evidence was admissible or whether it had been obtained under pressure, then it would be quite possible to have this trial within a trial as to whether it was admissible or not. But if this evidence is, broadly, merely directed to the credibility of Heisig’s evidence, then I respectfully submit it falls within the same objections I made on Saturday to general evidence directed against the credibility of a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think it is suggested that there was any pressure put by the Prosecution upon Heisig. I do not understand that that is what you are suggesting, Dr. Kranzbühler, is it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: No, no pressure; but the picture as drawn was not true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I understood Dr. Kranzbühler—if I misunderstood him, so much the easier—I understood him to say that he wanted to give this evidence as to certain influence. I thought that was the word used.

THE PRESIDENT: I think he meant, not influence exerted by the Prosecution, but exerted by a mistaken notion in the witness’ own mind that he was helping a friend.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. My Lord, then that merely goes to credibility and it does then fall within my general objection; that is, if we are going to have evidence as directed on credibility, we go on ad infinitum.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, the Tribunal will allow this question to be put in this particular instance, but they make no general rule as to the admissibility of such questions.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

Admiral Wagner, in December you were in the prison here together with the witness Heisig. Is that correct?

WAGNER: Yes, from the first until the fifth of December.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what did Heisig tell you about the underlying considerations of his affidavit?

WAGNER: He told me the following personally: At the interrogation he had been told that Lieutenant Hoffmann, officer of the watch of Kapitänleutnant Eck, had testified that at that time he had listened to the speech by Admiral Dönitz at Gotenhafen in the autumn of 1942, and that he had considered this as a demand for the killing of survivors of shipwrecks. Heisig had been told:

“If you confirm this testimony of Hoffmann, then you will save not only Eck and Hoffmann, but also two others who would have been sentenced to death. You will prevent any kind of judicial proceeding against Captain Möhle from being instituted. Of course, you will thus incriminate Grossadmiral Dönitz but the material against Admiral Dönitz is of such tremendous weight that his life has been forfeited anyway.”

Further he told me, and without prompting, that at that time, on the occasion of the speech by the Admiral Dönitz, he had been deeply distressed. He had just returned from Lübeck, where he had experienced and seen the frightful consequences of an air attack; that is he had perhaps not experienced it, but at least he had seen the consequences. His mind was set on revenge for these brutal measures, and he considered it possible that this emotional state might have influenced his interpretation of Grossadmiral Dönitz’ speech.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now we shall turn to a different point.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: If the Prosecution desire to do so, they can, of course, recall Heisig for the purpose of investigating this further.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases, Heisig is no longer here; that is the difficulty when this is done in this order. However, we can consider the matter, My Lord, and we are grateful to the Tribunal for the permission.

THE PRESIDENT: Is Heisig not in custody? Is that what you mean?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes, My Lord, he is no longer in custody.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: He is studying medicine at Munich; he can be very easily reached.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Thank you.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: From when on were you admiral for special tasks attached to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy and what were your tasks in that capacity?

WAGNER: From the end of June 1944 onward, and the purpose of my assignment was the following: After the success of the Anglo-Saxon invasion in northern France, Admiral Dönitz counted on an increased tension in the military situation. He believed that one day he might be forced to leave the Naval Operations Staff, either to remain permanently at the Führer’s headquarters, or at least for a longer period of time, in order to keep up with the development of the entire war situation, or because a transfer of the Naval Operations Staff might be necessary because of the increasingly heavy air attacks on Berlin. For this purpose the Grossadmiral wanted an older and experienced naval officer in his immediate vicinity, an officer who was well-versed in the problems of sea warfare and who was acquainted with the duties and tasks of the Naval Operations Staff.

My mission was, therefore, a sort of liaison between the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the Naval Operations Staff and the other offices of the High Command for the duration of the Grossadmiral’s absence from the High Command.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you accompany the Grossadmiral regularly on his visits to the Führer’s headquarters?

WAGNER: Yes; from the period mentioned I was present regularly.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now I hand you a list of these visits which has been submitted by the Prosecution as GB-207. This may be found in the document book of the Prosecution on Page 56. Please look at this list and tell me whether the dates recorded there are essentially correct.

WAGNER: The dates are essentially correct. At the end the list is not complete, for the period from 3—no; from 10 April until 21 April 1945 is missing. On that day the Grossadmiral participated for the last time at the conferences in the Führer’s headquarters. Beyond that, it seems to me that the list of the people present is incomplete. I also do not know according to what point of view or with what idea in mind this was compiled.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: If you carefully examine this list of people, can you tell me whether Admiral Dönitz was always with these people on the dates mentioned, or does this mean only that these persons were at the Führer’s headquarters at the same time he was? Can you still recall these points?

WAGNER: Yes. If these people participated in the military conferences, then Admiral Dönitz at least saw them. Of course, people in high positions were frequently at the Führer’s headquarters who did not participate in the military conferences and whom the Grossadmiral did not see unless he had special conversations with them.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: For what reason did Admiral Dönitz...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, upon this point, if the witness is saying that any one of these minutes is incomplete, I should be very grateful if he would specify it, because we can get the original German minutes here and confirm the affidavit.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I believe the witness said only that additional people participated in these discussions and that, at the end, some of the conferences are lacking. However, I do not know just what details I should question him about. Perhaps the Prosecution will deal with that matter later in cross-examination?

THE PRESIDENT: But Sir David wants him to specify which are the ones, if he can.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Very well.

[Turning to the witness.] Can you tell me more specifically as to any one of these dates, whether those present are correctly named or whether there were other people present, or whether Grossadmiral Dönitz was not present?

WAGNER: I can tell you exactly that this list is incorrect because it never occurred that neither Field Marshal Keitel nor Generaloberst Jodl was present at the headquarters. For example, on 4 March 1945 neither one of these men is mentioned, nor on 6 March or 8 March. Therefore I conclude that this list cannot be complete. In other places, however, the name of Jodl appears; for example, on 18 March 1945.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The decisive point seems to be whether Admiral Dönitz was present in the Führer’s headquarters on all of these days. Can you confirm that point?

WAGNER: Of course, from memory I cannot confirm that with reference to every single day. However, I am under the impression that the list is correct in that connection, for the frequency of the visits of the Grossadmiral corresponds with the notes in this list, and spot checks show me that the dates are correct.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Why did Grossadmiral Dönitz come to the Führer’s headquarters? What were the reasons?

WAGNER: The chief reason for the frequent visits, which became even more frequent toward the end of the war, was the desire to keep up with the development of the general war situation so that he, Dönitz, could lead the Navy and carry on the naval war accordingly. Beyond that, questions usually came up which the Admiral could not decide for himself out of his own authority and which, because of their importance, he wanted to bring up personally or to discuss with the representatives of the OKW and of the General Staff.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In each of these cases was there a personal report of the Grossadmiral to the Führer?

WAGNER: This is what happened: Most of the problems and reports for the Führer were taken care of during the conference in connection with the Admiral’s report on the naval warfare situation.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: One moment. Was the Admiral always present at the military conferences when he was at the headquarters?

WAGNER: The Admiral took part at least in the discussion of the main session every day.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what is the main session?

WAGNER: At noon every day there was a military conference which lasted several hours. This was the main conference. In addition, for months, sessions, including special sessions, were held in the evening or at night, at which the Admiral participated only when very important matters were to be discussed—matters of special importance for the conduct of the war. Then, as I said, he participated.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now you say that most of the questions which the Grossadmiral had to put to the Führer were taken care of at the military conference. Were there any personal reports besides this?

WAGNER: Personal reports on the part of the Grossadmiral to Hitler took place very seldom; on the other hand, personal discussions with the OKW and the other military offices at the headquarters took place daily.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Now, I would like to know something more in detail about this so-called “Lagebesprechung,” the conferences.

The Prosecution seem to consider this as a sort of War Cabinet at which, for instance, Ribbentrop would report about foreign policies, Speer about questions of production, Himmler about security questions. Is this a correct picture? Who took part in these sessions, what people participated regularly and who attended only once in a while?

WAGNER: The participants at the conferences were generally the following:

Regular participants: from the OKW, Field Marshal Keitel, General Jodl, General Buhle, Post Captain Assmann, Major Büchs, and a few more Chiefs of Staff. Then the Chief of the General Staff of the Army with one or two aides, and as a rule also the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force with one aide. Further regular participants were: the Chief of the Army Personnel Office, who was Chief Adjutant to the Führer; General Bodenschatz, until 20 July 1944; Vice Admiral Voss who was the permanent deputy of the Grossadmiral; Gruppenführer Fegelein, as Himmler’s permanent deputy; Ambassador Hewel; Minister Sonnleitner, permanent deputy of the Foreign Minister; Reich Press Chief Dr. Dietrich. Frequently the following participated: the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe; less frequently, Himmler. In addition to these there was a varying participation on the part of special officers, mainly from the General Staff of the Army, and on the part of higher front commanders of the Army and of the Air Force who happened to be in headquarters. Beyond that, toward the end of the war Reich Minister Speer in his capacity as Armament Minister also participated in an increasing measure, and in rare cases the Reich Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop, both as listeners at the conferences. I believe that is the complete list.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Who reported at these conferences and what was reported on?

WAGNER: These sessions were for the sole purpose of informing Hitler about the war situation—about the Eastern situation through the General Staff of the Army, and through the OKW about the situation in all other theaters of war and concerning all three branches of the Wehrmacht. The report took place as follows:

First of all, the Chief of General Staff of the Army reported about the Eastern situation; then Generaloberst Jodl reported on the situation in all other theaters of war on land. Next, Post Captain Assmann of the OKW reported on the naval situation. In between, frequent, often hour-long, conversations took place which dealt with special military problems, panzer problems, aerial problems and such. And after the aerial problems were dealt with the discussion was at an end, and we left the room. I frequently saw that Ambassador Hewel went in to Hitler with a batch of reports, apparently from the Foreign Office, and reported on them without the rest of us knowing what they contained.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In these conferences was there voting or was there consultation, or who gave the orders?

WAGNER: In these conferences all military questions were discussed and frequently decisions were reached by the Führer, that is, if no further preparations were necessary for a decision.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What for example did the Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop do there when he was present?

WAGNER: I only saw Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop perhaps five or six times at these conferences, and I cannot remember that he ever said anything during the entire session. He was only present at the conference for his own information.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How about Minister Speer, what did he do?

WAGNER: Minister Speer also very seldom brought in armament problems during the discussion. I know that questions of armament were always discussed between Hitler and Speer in special discussions. However, some exceptions may have occurred.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was Himmler doing there, or his permanent deputy Fegelein? Did they discuss questions of security, or what was their mission?

WAGNER: No. During the military conference security problems were never discussed. Himmler and his deputy appeared very frequently in connection with the Waffen-SS, and Fegelein had always to give reports about the setup, organization, arming, transportation and engagement of the SS divisions. At this time the SS divisions, according to my impression, still played a very important part, for ostensibly they represented a strategic reserve and were much discussed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have a record of the meeting which was written by you. It has the Number GB-209. It is not found in the document book. It says in the third paragraph—and I am just reading one sentence:

“The Deputy of the Reichsführer-SS at the Führer’s headquarters, SS Gruppenführer Fegelein, transmits the request of the Reichsführer as to when he can count on the arrival of the ‘Panther’”—those are tanks—“coming from Libau.”

Is this typical of SS Gruppenführer Fegelein’s work?

WAGNER: Yes. That was the kind of questions which were dealt with at every one of these sessions.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: At the end of the war Kaltenbrunner appeared several times also. Did he speak or report?

WAGNER: I cannot remember one single utterance on Kaltenbrunner’s part during one of these military conferences.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What role did Admiral Dönitz play at the session discussions?

WAGNER: Even when Grossadmiral Dönitz was present the naval situation was reported by the deputy from the OKW, Commodore Assmann. However, the Admiral used this occasion to present, in connection with the individual theaters of war, or in summary at the end, those questions which he had in mind. The Admiral was neither asked nor did he give any opinion on questions dealing with air or land warfare which had no connection with the conduct of the naval war. In his statements he strictly confined himself to the sphere of the Navy, and very energetically objected if someone else during the session tried to interfere in questions of naval warfare.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I have come to a break. If the Tribunal agrees to declare a recess...

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will adjourn.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

Afternoon Session

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn this afternoon at 4:30 in order to sit in closed session.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Wagner, as time went on a close relationship developed between Admiral Dönitz and Adolf Hitler. Was this due to the fact that the Admiral was particularly ready to comply with the Führer’s wishes?

WAGNER: No, not at all. Admiral Dönitz’ activity as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy began with a very strong opposition to Hitler. It was Hitler’s intention to scrap the large ships of the Navy, that is to say, the remaining battleships and cruisers. Admiral Raeder had already rejected that plan.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That story is already known, Admiral. You need not go into it in detail.

WAGNER: Very well. Apart from that, Hitler’s respect for Dönitz was due to the fact that every statement which the Admiral made was absolutely reliable and absolutely honest. The Admiral attached particular importance to the fact that particularly unfavorable developments, failures, and mistakes were to be reported at headquarters without digression, objectively, and simply. As an example, I should like to mention that the Admiral had given me the order...

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think we need examples of that sort of thing. Surely the general statement is quite sufficient.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the Admiral in any way show himself particularly willing to comply with the Führer’s political wishes or those of the Party?

WAGNER: No. Such wishes of the Party were, in my opinion, only put to the Navy in three cases. One was the question of the churches, which for the most part came up during the time of Admiral Raeder. I think it is generally known that the Navy retained its original religious organization and, in fact, extended it as the Navy grew.

The second request made by the Party was that, modeled on the Russian example, political commissars should be set up within the Armed Forces. On that occasion Admiral Dönitz went to see Hitler and prevented the carrying out of that plan. When after 20 July 1944 Bormann nevertheless succeeded in getting the so-called “NSFO”—the National Socialist Leadership Officers—introduced into the Armed Forces, it did not happen in the way the Party wished, by appointing political commissars. It was merely done by using officers who were under the jurisdiction of the commander and who could not in any way interfere with the leadership of the troops. The third case was the intention on the part of the Party to take away from, the Armed Forces the political penal cases.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: This case is also already known, Admiral. You kept the records of the visits at the Führer’s headquarters, is that correct?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: A number of these records have been introduced as evidence in this Court. Will you please explain to the Tribunal what was the purpose of keeping these records of visits of commanders-in-chief to the Führer’s headquarters?

WAGNER: The Chief of the Naval Operations Staff, the Chief of the Naval Armaments, and the Chief of the General Navy Department—that is to say, the three leading men in the High Command of the Navy—were to be informed by means of these records of all happenings which took place in the presence of the Admiral, as far as they were of any interest to the Navy. That was one of my tasks.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You have just said “informed about happenings which took place in the presence of the Admiral.” Does that mean that he himself must have heard everything that has been put down in these records?

WAGNER: Not necessarily. It happened quite frequently that during situation reports, when they took place in a large room and when subjects were discussed which did not interest him so much, the Admiral would retire to another part of the room and deal with some business of his own or discuss Navy questions with other participants in the meeting. It was possible that on such occasions I heard things and put them down in the record which the Admiral himself did not hear. But, of course, he would know about them later when he saw my record.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am going to have shown to you one of your own records of discussions on 20 February 1945. It is Exhibit Number GB-209, and it is on Page 68 of the document book of the Prosecution. This deals with considerations regarding the renouncing of the Geneva Convention. Will you please describe exactly what happened as you remember it?

WAGNER: Approximately two or three days before the date in this record—in other words, on or about 17 or 18 February 1945—Admiral Voss telephoned me from headquarters, which at that time was situated in Berlin, and informed me that in connection with Anglo-Saxon propaganda to induce our troops to desert in the West, Hitler had stated his intention to leave the Geneva Convention.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What did he hope to achieve?

WAGNER: According to my first impression at the time, the intention was evidently to express to the troops and the German people that captivity would no longer bring any advantage. Thereupon, I immediately telephoned to the Naval Operations Staff, since I considered the intention to be completely wrong, and I asked them for a military opinion and an opinion from the point of view of international law.

On the 19th, when taking part in the situation discussion, Hitler once more referred to this question, but this time not in connection with happenings on the western front; but in connection with the air attacks by the western enemies on open German towns—attacks had just been made on Dresden and Weimar.

He ordered the Admiral to examine the effects of leaving the Geneva Convention from the point of view of naval warfare. An immediate answer was not expected and it was not given. Generaloberst Jodl was also quite strongly opposed to these intentions and he sought the Admiral’s support. Thereupon it was agreed to have a conference and that is the conference which is mentioned in the record under Figure 2.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That is the conference of 20 February, Admiral?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Who participated in that conference?

WAGNER: Admiral Dönitz, Generaloberst Jodl, Ambassador Hewel, and myself.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was the subject?

WAGNER: The subject was the Führer’s intention of renouncing the Geneva Convention. The result was the unanimous opinion that such a step would be a mistake. Apart from military consideration we especially held the conviction that by renouncing the Geneva Convention both the Armed Forces and the German people would lose confidence in the leadership, since the Geneva Convention was generally considered to be the conception of international law.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In your notes there is a sentence, “One would have to carry out the measures considered necessary without warning and at all costs ‘to save face’ with the outer world.” What is the significance of that sentence?

WAGNER: That sentence means that on no account should there be any irresponsible actions. If the leaders considered it necessary to introduce countermeasures against air attacks on open German towns, or against the propaganda for desertion in the West, then one should confine oneself to such countermeasures which appear necessary and justifiable. One should not put oneself in the wrong before the world and one’s own people by totally repudiating all the Geneva Conventions and announce measures which went far beyond what appeared to be necessary and justifiable.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were any concrete measures discussed in this connection or were any such measures even thought of?

WAGNER: No. I can remember very well that no specific measures were discussed at all during the various conferences. We were mainly concerned with the total question of whether to repudiate the Geneva Convention or not.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you ever learn anything about a so-called intention on Adolf Hitler’s part to shoot 10,000 prisoners of war as a reprisal for the air attack on Dresden?

WAGNER: No, I have never heard anything about that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The expression “to save face”—doesn’t that mean secrecy, hiding the true facts?

WAGNER: In my opinion it was certain that there was no question of secrecy, for neither the countermeasures against air attacks nor the measures of intimidation against desertion could be effective if they were concealed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How long did this whole conversation which you recorded last?

WAGNER: Will you please tell me which conversation you mean?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The discussion of 20 February which contains the sentences which I have just read to you.

WAGNER: It took perhaps ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: So that your record is a very brief condensed summary of the conversation?

WAGNER: Yes, it only contains the important points.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Admiral Dönitz also submit his objections to the Führer?

WAGNER: As far as I recollect, it never reached that point. One became convinced that Hitler, as soon as he put his questions to the Admiral, could gather from the Admiral’s expression and the attitude of the others that they rejected his plans. We passed our views on to the High Command of the Armed Forces in writing and heard no more about the whole matter.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am now going to show you another record which is submitted under GB-210. It is on the next page of the document book of the Prosecution and it refers to conferences at the Führer’s headquarters from 29 June to 1 July 1944.

You will find an entry under the date of 1 July which reads, “In connection with the general strike in Copenhagen, the Führer says that terror can be subdued only with terror.” Was this statement made during a conversation between Hitler and Admiral Dönitz or in which connection?

WAGNER: This is a statement made by Hitler during a situation discussion and addressed neither to Admiral Dönitz nor to the Navy.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Well, if it was not addressed to the Navy, then why did you include it in your record?

WAGNER: I included in my record all statements which could be of any interest to the Navy. The High Command of the Navy was, of course, interested in the general strike in Copenhagen because our ships were repaired in Copenhagen; and apart from that Copenhagen was a naval base.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And to whom did you pass this record? Who received it?

WAGNER: According to the distribution list on Page 4, the paper went only to the Commander-in-Chief and department 1 of the Naval Operations Staff.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the Naval Operations Staff have anything to do with the treatment of shipyard workers in Denmark?

WAGNER: No, nothing at all. From 1943 on the shipyards were entirely under the Ministry of Armaments.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution sees in this statement and its transmission to a department of the OKW an invitation to deal ruthlessly with the inhabitants. Does that in any way tally with the meaning of this record?

WAGNER: There can be no question of that. The only purpose of this record was to inform the Departments of the High Command.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am now going to have another document shown to you. It is Exhibit Number USA-544. It is in the document book of the Prosecution on Pages 64 and 65. It is a note by the international law expert in the Naval Operations Staff regarding the treatment of saboteurs. Do you know this note?

WAGNER: Yes. I have initialed it on the first page.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: At the end of that note you will find the sentence:

“As far as the Navy is concerned, it should be investigated whether the occurrence cannot be used, after reporting to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, to make sure that the treatment of members of Commando troops is absolutely clear to all the departments concerned.”

Was this report made to Admiral Dönitz who at that time had been Commander-in-Chief of the Navy for ten days?

WAGNER: No, that report was not made, as the various remarks at the head of it will show.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you explain that, please?

WAGNER: The international law expert in the Naval Operations Staff IA made this suggestion through the Operations Office IA to me as Chief of the Operational Department. The chief of the IA Section in a handwritten notice beside his initials, wrote, “The subordinate commanders have been informed.” That means that he had objected to the proposal of the international law expert and considered that an explanation of the orders within the Navy was superfluous. I investigated these matters and I decided that the operations officer was right. I sent for the international law expert, Dr. Eckardt, informed him orally of my decision, and returned this document to him. Thus the suggestion to report to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy made in connection with the explanation of this order was not actually carried out.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you remember whether Admiral Dönitz on some later occasion received reports on this Commando order?

WAGNER: No, I have no recollection of that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have submitted to you GB-208, which is a record regarding the case of a motor torpedo boat at Bergen. It is the case which is contained in the British document book on Pages 66 and 67. Have you ever heard about this incident before this Trial?

WAGNER: No. I heard about it for the first time on the occasion of interrogations in connection with these proceedings.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I gather from the files of the British court-martial proceedings, which have been submitted by the Prosecution during cross-examination, that before the shooting of the crew of that motor torpedo boat there had been two telephone conversations, between the Chief of the Security Service in Bergen and the SD at Oslo, and between the SD at Oslo and Berlin. Can you recollect whether such a conversation took place between the SD at Oslo and yourself or one of the representatives in the High Command?

WAGNER: I certainly had no such conversation, and as far as I know neither did any other officer in my department or in the High Command.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you consider it at all possible that the SD at Oslo might get in touch with the High Command of the Navy?

WAGNER: No, I consider that quite out of the question. If the SD in Oslo wanted to get in touch with a central department in Berlin then they could only do so through their own superior authority, and that is the RSHA.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I now put to you another document; it is Exhibit GB-212 which appears on Page 75 of the document book of the Prosecution. It mentions an example of a commandant of a German prisoner-of-war camp and it says he had communists who had attracted attention among the inmates suddenly and quietly removed by the guards. Do you know of this incident?

WAGNER: Yes, such an episode is known to me. I think we received the report from a prisoner-of-war—a man who had been severely injured and who had been exchanged—that the German commandant of a prisoner-of-war camp in Australia, in which the crew of the auxiliary cruiser Cormoran were detained, had secretly had a man of his crew killed because he had been active as a spy and traitor.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: But this order does not mention the word “spy.” It says “communist.” What is the explanation?

THE PRESIDENT: It does not say “communist.” It says “communists” in the plural.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: “Communists,” plural.

WAGNER: In my opinion the only explanation is that the true state of affairs was to be concealed so as to prevent the enemy intelligence from tracing the incident and making difficulties for the senior sergeant in question. Thus, a different version was chosen.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: It was the opinion of the Soviet Prosecution that this showed there was a plan for the silent removal of communists. Can you tell us anything about the origin of this order, whether such a plan existed and whether it had ever come under discussion?

WAGNER: First of all the order was addressed to those personnel offices which were responsible for choosing young potential officers and noncommissioned officers in the Navy. There were about six or seven personnel offices. Beyond that I can only say that of course...

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Just a moment, Admiral, please.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, is it necessary to go into all this detail? The question is, was there an order with reference to making away with the people of this sort or was there not—not all the details about how the order came to be made.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In that case I shall put the question this way: Was there any order or any desire in the Navy to kill communists inconspicuously and systematically?

WAGNER: No, such an order or such a plan did not exist. Of course, there were a considerable number of communists in the Navy. That was known to every superior officer. The overwhelming majority of those communists did their duty as Germans just as any other German in the war.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Dönitz has been accused by the Prosecution because as late as the spring of 1945 he urged his people to hold out obstinately to the end. The Prosecution considers that evidence of the fact that he was a fanatical Nazi. Did you and the majority of the Navy consider this to be so?

WAGNER: No, the Admiral’s attitude was not considered to be political fanaticism. To them it meant that he was carrying out his ordinary duty as a soldier to the last. I am convinced that this was the view of the great majority of the entire Navy, the men and the noncommissioned officers as well as the officers.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defendant’s counsel want to ask any questions?

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral Wagner, you have already briefly sketched the positions you have held. In supplementing I should like to make quite sure who held a leading position in the Naval Operations Staff under Grossadmiral Raeder in the decisive years before and after the outbreak of the war. Who was the Chief of Staff during the two years before the war, and at the beginning of the war?

WAGNER: The Chief of Staff of the Naval Operations Staff from 1938 until 1941 was Admiral Schniewind. From 1941 until after Raeder’s retirement it was Admiral Fricke.

DR. SIEMERS: Those, therefore, were the two officers who worked in the highest posts under Admiral Raeder in the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: They were the immediate advisers of the Admiral.

DR. SIEMERS: And the Naval Operations Staff had several departments?

WAGNER: Yes, it consisted of several departments, which were given consecutive numbers.

DR. SIEMERS: And which was the most important department?

WAGNER: The most important department of the Naval Operations Staff was the Operations Department, which was known as Number 1.

DR. SIEMERS: And the other departments, 2, 3—what did they do?

WAGNER: They were the Signals and Communications Department and the Information Department.

DR. SIEMERS: Who was the chief of the Operations Department?

WAGNER: From 1937 until 1941 it was Admiral Fricke. From 1941 until after Raeder’s retirement I was the chief of that department.

DR. SIEMERS: In other words, for many years you worked under Admiral Raeder. First of all I should like to ask you to speak briefly about Raeder’s basic attitude during the time you were working in the Naval Operations Staff.

WAGNER: Under Admiral Raeder the Navy was working for a peaceful development in agreement with Britain. The foremost questions were those regarding the type of ships, training, and tactical schooling. Admiral Raeder never referred to aggressive wars during any conference which I attended. Nor did he at any time ask us to make any preparations in that direction.

DR. SIEMERS: Do you remember that in 1940 and in 1941 Raeder declared himself emphatically against a war with Russia?

WAGNER: Yes, he was very strongly opposed to a war with Russia, and that for two reasons; first, he considered that to break the treaty of friendship with Russia was wrong and inadmissible, and secondly, for strategic reasons he was convinced that our entire strength should be concentrated against Britain. When in the autumn of 1940 it appeared that the invasion of Britain could not be carried out, the Admiral worked for a strategy in the Mediterranean to keep open an outlet against Britain’s policy of encirclement.

DR. SIEMERS: The Navy had rather a lot to do with Russia during the friendship period between Russia and Germany in the way of deliveries. As far as you know did everything in that respect run smoothly?

WAGNER: Yes, I know that a large number of deliveries from the Navy stocks went to Russia; for instance, uncompleted ships, heavy guns, and other war material.

DR. SIEMERS: And the Navy, of course, always made efforts to maintain the friendly relations laid down in the Pact?

WAGNER: Yes, that was the Admiral’s opinion.

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral Wagner, Admiral Raeder has been accused by the Prosecution that he had never bothered about international law and that he broke international law conventions as a matter of principle if it suited him. Can you express a general opinion about Raeder’s attitude in that respect?

WAGNER: Yes; that is completely wrong. Admiral Raeder considered it most important that every measure for naval warfare should be examined from the point of view of international law. For that purpose we had a special expert on international law in the Naval Operations Staff with whom we in the Operations Department had almost daily contact.

DR. SIEMERS: Furthermore, Raeder has been accused by the Prosecution of advising a war against the United States and trying to get Japan to go to war with the United States. May I ask for your opinion on that?

WAGNER: I consider this charge completely unjustified. I know that Admiral Raeder attached particular importance to the fact that all naval war measures—especially in the critical year of 1941—were to be examined very closely as to the effects they might have on the United States of America. In fact he refrained from taking quite a number of militarily perfectly justified measures in order to prevent incidents with the U.S.A. For instance, in the summer of 1941 he withdrew the submarines from a large area off the coast of the U.S.A. although that area could certainly be regarded as the open sea. He forbade mine-laying action which had already begun against the British port of Halifax, Canada, to prevent, at all costs, the possibility of a United States ship striking a mine. And finally, he also forbade attacks on British destroyers in the North Atlantic because the fifty destroyers which had been turned over to England by the United States created the dangerous possibility of confusing the British and American destroyers. All this was done at a time when the United States, while still at peace, occupied Iceland, when British warships were being repaired in American shipyards, when American naval forces had orders that all German units should be reported to the British fleet, and when finally President Roosevelt in July 1941 gave his forces the order to attack any German submarines they sighted.

DR. SIEMERS: Did Admiral Raeder ever make a statement in the Naval Operations Staff that there was no risk in a war against America and that the fleet or the American submarines were not much good?

WAGNER: No, Admiral Raeder as an expert would never have made such a statement.

DR. SIEMERS: On the contrary, did not Raeder expressly speak of the strength of the American fleet and that one could not fight simultaneously two such great sea-powers as America and Great Britain?

WAGNER: Yes, it was perfectly clear to him and to us that America’s entry into the war would mean a very substantial strengthening of the enemy forces.

DR. SIEMERS: Now on one occasion Admiral Raeder suggested in his war diary that Japan should attack Singapore. Was there any discussion about Pearl Harbor in connection with that in the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: No, not at all. The attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor was a complete surprise, both to the Admiral and to the Naval Operations Staff and, in my opinion, to every other German department.

DR. SIEMERS: Were there no continuous naval-military discussions and conferences between Japan and Germany?

WAGNER: No, before Japan’s entry into the war there were no military discussions according to my conviction.

DR. SIEMERS: I should now like to show you Document C-41, Mr. President, this is Exhibit GB-69. Later on, the British Delegation will submit it in Document Book 10a for Raeder. I do not know whether the Tribunal already has it. It is as yet not contained in the trial brief against Raeder. In the newly compiled: Document Book 10a, it is on Page 18.

THE PRESIDENT: You can offer it in evidence now, if you want to, so you can put it to the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: The Prosecution has submitted it; yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SIEMERS: This concerns a document signed by Admiral Fricke, and it is dated 3 June 1940. It is headed “Questions of Expansion of Areas and Bases.” That document contains detailed statements on future plans.

[Turning to the witness.] I should like to ask you if Raeder gave the order to prepare this memorandum or how did this memorandum come to be written?

WAGNER: Admiral Raeder did not give the order to draft this memorandum. This constitutes the personal, theoretical ideas of Admiral Fricke regarding the possible developments in the future. They are quite fantastic, and they had no practical significance.

DR. SIEMERS: Was this study or this note talked about or discussed in any large group in the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: No, in my opinion only the Operations officers had knowledge of this document, which by its very form shows that it is not a well-thought-out study made by order of Grossadmiral Raeder but an ad hoc jotting-down of thoughts which occurred to Admiral Fricke at the moment.

DR. SIEMERS: Was this study or this document passed on to any outsiders at all?

WAGNER: I think I can remember that this document was not sent to any outside office but remained in the Operations Department. The Grossadmiral, too, in my opinion did not have knowledge of it, particularly since this document shows that he did not initial it.

DR. SIEMERS: You have a photostat copy of that document?

WAGNER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Are there any other initials on it which might show that it was put before Admiral Raeder? How was this sort of thing generally handled in the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: Every document that was to be put before the Admiral had on its first page in the left margin a note: “v.A.v.,” which means “to be submitted before dispatch,” or “n.E.v.,” “to be submitted after receipt,” or else “to be reported during situation reports.” And then at that place the Admiral would initial it with a green pencil, or the officers of his personal staff would make a note indicating that it had been submitted to him.

DR. SIEMERS: And there are no such marks on this document?

WAGNER: No.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to show you Document C-38, which is a document of the Prosecution bearing the number Exhibit GB-223. It is contained in the Prosecution’s document book on Raeder, Page 11.

The war between Germany and Russia began on 22 June 1941. According to the last page but one of the document which you have before you, the OKW as early as 15 June—a week before the outbreak of the war—ordered the use of arms against enemy submarines south of the Memel line, the southern tip of Oeland, at the request of the Naval Operations Staff.

The Prosecution is basing the accusation on this document and once more referring to an aggressive war. Unfortunately, the Prosecution has only submitted the last page of this document. It did not produce the first and second page of the document. If it had done so, then this accusation would probably have been dropped. May I read to you, Witness, what is contained there; and I quote:

“On 12 June at 2000 hours one of the submarines placed as outposts on both sides of Bornholm, as precautionary measure, reported at 2000 hours an unknown submarine in the vicinity of Adlergrund (20 miles southwest of Bornholm) which had surfaced and was proceeding on a westerly course and which answered a recognition signal call with a letter signal which had no particular significance.”

That ends the quotation.

May I ask you to explain what it means that this submarine did not reply to the recognition signal call?

WAGNER: In time of war the warships of one’s own fleet have an arrangement of recognition signals; that is to say, the recognition signal has a call and a reply which immediately identifies the ship as belonging to one’s own fleet. If a recognition signal is wrongly answered, it proves that it is a foreign vessel.

DR. SIEMERS: As far as you can remember, were there any other clues showing that ships appeared in the Baltic sea which were recognized as enemy ships?

WAGNER: Yes. I remember that there were individual cases where unknown submarines were observed off the German Baltic ports. Subsequently it was found, by comparing the stations of our own submarines, that these were indeed enemy vessels.

DR. SIEMERS: Were these facts the reason which caused the Naval Operations Staff to ask for the use of weapons?

WAGNER: Yes, these very facts.

DR. SIEMERS: A similar case has been made the subject of an accusation in connection with Greece. It has been ascertained here in Court from the War Diary that on 30 December 1939 the Naval Operations Staff asked that Greek ships in the American blockade zone around Great Britain should be treated as hostile. Since Greece was neutral at the time, there has been an accusation against Raeder of a breach of neutrality.

May I ask you to tell us the reasons which caused the Naval Operations Staff and the Chief, Raeder, to make such a request to the OKW?

WAGNER: We had had news that Greece had placed the bulk of its merchant fleet at the disposal of England and that these Greek vessels were sailing under British command.

DR. SIEMERS: And it is correct that Greek vessels in general were not treated as hostile, but only vessels in the American blockade zone around England?

WAGNER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: The next case, which is somewhat similar, is that which occurred in June 1942, when the Naval Operations Staff made an application to the OKW to be allowed to attack Brazilian ships, although Brazil at that time was still a neutral. The war with Brazil started some two months later on 22 August. What reasons were there for such a step?

WAGNER: We were receiving reports from submarines from the waters around South America, according to which they were being attacked by ships which could only have started from Brazilian bases. The first thing we did was to refer back and get these questions clarified and confirmed. Moreover, I think I can remember personally that at that time it was already generally known that Brazil was giving the use of sea and air bases to the United States with whom we were at war.

DR. SIEMERS: So that this was due to a breach of neutrality on the part of Brazil?

WAGNER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to submit to you Documents C-176 and D-658. Document C-176 has the number Exhibit GB-228. These two documents are based on the Commando Order, that is, the order to destroy sabotage troops. The Prosecution has charged Raeder with an incident which occurred in December 1942 in the Gironde estuary at Bordeaux. In Document C-176, on the last page, you will find something which I would like to quote.

“Shooting of the two captured Englishmen took place by a firing-squad, numbering one officer and 16 men, detailed by the port commander at Bordeaux, in the presence of an officer of the SD and by order of the Führer.”

Previous entries, which I do not want to quote separately and which portray the same things, show that the SD had intervened directly and had got into direct touch with the Führer’s headquarters.

I now ask you whether the Naval Operations Staff had heard anything at all about this matter before these two prisoners were shot, or whether they knew anything about this direct order from Hitler which is mentioned in this connection?

WAGNER: The Naval Operations Staff had nothing to do with a direct order for the shooting of people in Bordeaux. The Naval Operations Staff knew the tactical course of events of this sabotage undertaking in Bordeaux and nothing at the time beyond that.

DR. SIEMERS: Therefore, this case was not put to the Naval Operations Staff or to Admiral Raeder, and it was not discussed by them?

WAGNER: Yes. I am certain that that was not the case.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, may I ask the Tribunal to take notice of the fact that this war diary is by no means the war diary which has been frequently mentioned, the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff, but the war diary of the Naval Commander west, and was therefore unknown to the Naval Operations Staff. That is why the Naval Operations Staff did not know of this case.

THE PRESIDENT: You are referring now to Document C-176?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, and also to D-658, which is the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff.

THE PRESIDENT: What was the reference to it?

DR. SIEMERS: This is D-658, which shows the following: According to the OKW communiqué, these two soldiers had in the meantime been shot. The measure would be in keeping with the special order by the Führer. That has been submitted by the Prosecution, and it shows—and I shall refer to this later—that the Naval Operations Staff knew nothing about the entire episode because this shows an entry dated 9 December, whereas the whole affair happened on the 11th.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps this would be a good time to break off.

[A recess was taken.]

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral, I am now submitting to you Document UK C-124.

Mr. President, C-124 corresponds to USSR-130. This document deals with a communication from the Naval Operations Staff, dated 29 September 1941, addressed to Group North, and it deals with the future of the city of Petersburg. This report to Group North says that the Führer had decided to wipe the city of Petersburg from the face of the earth. The Navy itself had nothing to do with that report. Despite that, this report was sent to Group North.

Witness, I will return to this point, but I, would like to ask you first—you have a photostatic copy of the original—to tell me whether Raeder could have seen this document before it was dispatched?

WAGNER: According to my previous statements Admiral Raeder did not see this document since there are no marks or initials to that effect.

DR. SIEMERS: And now the more important question on this point. In view of the terrible communication which is mentioned by Hitler in Point 2, why did the Naval Operations Staff transmit it even though the Navy itself had nothing to do with it?

WAGNER: The Naval Operations Staff had asked that in bombarding, occupying or attacking Leningrad the dockyards, wharf installations, and all other special naval installations be spared so that they might be used as bases later on. That request was turned down by Hitler’s statement as contained in this document, as can be seen from Point 3.

We had to communicate this fact to Admiral Carls so that he could act accordingly and because in the case of a later occupation of Leningrad he could not count on this port as a base.

DR. SIEMERS: Because of the significance of this testimony, I would like to quote to the Tribunal the decisive point to which the witness just referred, and that is III of USSR-130. I quote:

“The original requests of the Navy to spare the dock, harbor, and other installations important from the Navy viewpoint are known to the High Command of the Wehrmacht. Compliance with these requests is not possible, because of the fundamental aim of the action against Petersburg.”

That was the decisive point which the SKL told Admiral Carls as commander of Group North.

WAGNER: That was the sole reason for this communication.

DR. SIEMERS: Do you know whether Admiral Carls did anything with this document? Did he transmit it to any one, or do you not know anything about that?

WAGNER: As far as I am informed, this communication was not passed on; and it was not the intention that it should be passed on for it was meant solely for Group North. On the strength of this document, Admiral Carls stopped the preparations which had already been made for using the Leningrad naval installations later on and made the personnel available for other purposes. That is the only measure which the Navy took on the basis of this communication and the only measure which could have been taken.

DR. SIEMERS: I should tell the Tribunal that accordingly I will submit, under Number 111 in my Document Book Raeder, an affidavit which contains this fact, which the witness also points out, that nothing was passed on by Group North so that the commanding naval officers never learned of this document.

This concerns an affidavit by Admiral Bütow who at that time was Commander-in-Chief in Finland, and I shall come back to this point when I present the case on behalf of Admiral Raeder.

I have no more questions to put to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of defendants’ counsel wish to ask any questions?

[There was no response.]

The Prosecution may cross-examine.

COLONEL H. J. PHILLIMORE (Junior Counsel for the United Kingdom): May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the questions asked by Dr. Siemers, I was going to leave the cross-examination on those points to the cross-examination of the Defendant Raeder so as to avoid any duplication.

[Turning to the witness.] As I understand the evidence which the Defendant Dönitz has given and your evidence, you are telling the Tribunal that with respect to the treatment of neutral merchant ships, the German Navy has nothing to reproach itself with. Is that right?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And the Defendant has said that the German Navy was scrupulous in adhering to orders about the attitude towards neutral shipping, and the neutrals were fully warned of what they should and should not do. Is that right?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Admiral Dönitz has also said that there was no question of deceiving neutral governments; they were given fair warning of what their ships should not do. Do you agree?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want just to remind you of what steps were taken as regards neutrals, as they appear from the defense documents.

First of all, on 3 September orders were issued that strict respect for all rules of neutrality and compliance with all agreements of international law which were generally recognized were to be observed.

My Lord, that is D-55, Page 139.

THE PRESIDENT: In the British document book?

COL. PHILLIMORE: In the Defense document book—Dönitz-55.

And then, on 28 September, a warning was sent to neutrals to avoid suspicious conduct, changing course, zig-zagging, and so on. That is Dönitz-61, at Page 150. On 19 October that warning was repeated and neutrals were advised to refuse convoy escort. That is Dönitz-62, at Page 153. On 22 October there was a repetition of the warning, that is Dönitz-62, Page 162; and on 24 November the neutrals were told that the safety of their ships in waters around the British Isles and in the vicinity of the French coast could no longer be taken for granted. That is Dönitz-73, at Page 206; and then from 6 January onwards, certain zones were declared dangerous zones. That is right, is it not?

WAGNER: No. On 24 November a general warning was issued that the entire United States fighting zone was to be considered dangerous. The specific zones which since January were used as operational zones were not made public, since they came within the scope of the first warning and served only for internal use within the Navy.

COL. PHILLIMORE: That is the point I want to be clear about. The zones that you declared from 6 January onwards were not announced. Is that the point?

WAGNER: Yes, the neutrals were warned on 24 November that all of those zones which had been specifically declared as operational zones since January would be dangerous for shipping.

COL. PHILLIMORE: But when you fixed the specific zones from 6 January onwards, no further specific warning was given. Is that the case?

WAGNER: That is correct. After the general warning, we issued no further specific warnings about parts of this zone.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, you are not suggesting, are you, that by these warnings and by this declaration of an enormous danger zone, you were entitled to sink neutral shipping without warning?

WAGNER: Yes. I am of the opinion that in this zone which we, as well as the United States of America before us, regarded as dangerous for shipping it was no longer necessary to show consideration to neutrals.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you mean to say that from 24 November onwards every neutral government was given fair warning that its ships would be sunk without warning if they were anywhere in that zone?

WAGNER: What I want to say is that on 24 November all the neutral countries were notified officially that the entire United States of America zone was to be considered as dangerous and that the German Reich could assume no responsibility for losses in combat in this zone.

COL. PHILLIMORE: That is quite a different case. Do not let us have any mistake about this. Are you saying that by that warning you were entitled to sink neutral ships anywhere in that zone without warning, sink on sight?

WAGNER: I did not quite catch the last few words.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Are you suggesting that you were entitled to sink at sight neutral shipping anywhere in that zone, as from 24 November?

WAGNER: I am of the opinion that we were justified from that period of time onwards in having no special consideration for neutral shipping. If we had made exceptions in our orders to our U-boats, it would have meant in every case that they could not have sunk enemy ships without warning.

COL. PHILLIMORE: It is not a question of any special consideration. Do you say that you became entitled to sink at sight any neutral ship, or sink it deliberately, whether you recognized it as neutral or not?

THE PRESIDENT: Surely you can answer that question “yes” or “no.”

WAGNER: Yes, I am of that opinion.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Will you tell me how that squares with the submarine rules?

WAGNER: I do not feel competent to give a legal explanation of these questions because that is a matter of international law.

COL. PHILLIMORE: At any rate, that is what you proceeded to do, is it not? You proceeded to sink neutral ships at sight and without warning anywhere in that zone?

WAGNER: Yes; not just anywhere in this zone, but in the operational zones stipulated by us neutral ships were...

COL. PHILLIMORE: But wherever you could—wherever you could?

WAGNER: In the operational zones stipulated by us we sank neutral ships without warning, for we were of the opinion that in this case we were concerned with secured zones near the enemy coast which could no longer be considered the open sea.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that is what you desired to do at the very start of the war, was it not? That is what you decided to do?

WAGNER: From the beginning of the war we decided to adhere strictly to the London Agreement.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Would you look at the document which was put in yesterday? My Lord, it is D-851. It is put in as GB-451. It is a memorandum of 3 September.

THE PRESIDENT: Where is it?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it was the only new document that Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe put in in cross-examination.

[Turning to the witness.] Would you look at the third paragraph:

“The Navy has arrived at the conclusion that the maximum damage to England can be achieved with the forces available only if the U-boats are permitted an unrestricted use of arms without warning against enemy and neutral shipping in the prohibited area indicated on the enclosed map.”

Do you still say that you did not intend from the start of the war to sink neutral shipping without warning as soon as you could get Hitler to agree to let you do so? Do you still say that?

WAGNER: Yes, absolutely. In this document, in the first paragraph, it says:

“In the attached documents sent to the Navy by the OKW the question of unrestricted U-boat warfare against England is discussed.”

I cannot judge these documents if they are not submitted to me.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were in the general staff at that time. You were in charge of the Department IA. This point of view must have been put forward by your department?

WAGNER: Yes. I have said already that we had decided, after consulting with the Foreign Office, to adhere strictly to the London Agreement until we had proof that English merchant shipping was navigated militarily and was being used for military purposes. Here we are apparently concerned solely with information, with an exchange of opinions with the Foreign Office...

COL. PHILLIMORE: I did not ask for your general view on the document. We can read that for ourselves. Your object was to terrorize the small neutrals and frighten them from sailing on their ordinary lawful occasions. Is that not right?

WAGNER: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And is that not why in the orders you issued in January of 1940 you excepted the larger countries from this “sink at sight” risk? Would you look at Document C-21. That is GB-194, at Page 30 of the Prosecution document book in English; Pages 59 and 60 in the German. Now, just look at the second entry on Page 5, 2 January 1940: “Report by IA.” That is you, is it not? That was you, was it not?

WAGNER: Yes, but I cannot find the point which you are quoting.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Page 5 of the original, under the date of 2 January 1940. Report by IA on directive of Armed Forces High Command, dated 30 December, referring to intensified measures in naval and air warfare in connection with Case Yellow:

“Through this directive the Navy will authorize, simultaneously with the beginning of the general intensification of the war, the sinking by U-boats without any warning of all ships in those waters near the enemy coasts in which mines can be employed. In this case, for external consumption, the use of mines should be simulated. The behavior of, and use of weapons by, U-boats should be adapted to this purpose.”

That has nothing to do with the arming of British merchant ships. That is not the reason that is given, is it? The reason is because it fitted in with your operations for Case Yellow.

WAGNER: I did not understand the last sentence.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You do not give as your reason that the British were arming their merchant ships. The reason you give is that it was necessary in connection with intensified measures for Case Yellow. Why is that?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The German translation is so inadequate that it is almost impossible to understand the question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will put the question to you again. The excuse for this directive is to be the intensification of measures in connection with Case Yellow. You notice, do you not, that nothing is said about the arming of British merchant ships as justifying this step? That is correct, is it not?

WAGNER: May I have time, please, to peruse these papers first?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Certainly. This was written by yourself, you know.

WAGNER: No, that was not written by me. This measure really came within the warning which was given to the neutrals on 24 November 1939.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Nothing is said about the warning of 24 November. If you were entitled, as you have told us, under that to sink neutral ships, there would not be any need for this special directive, would there?

WAGNER: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: No. Now, let us just...

WAGNER: For military and political reasons we ordered that a hit by a mine was to be simulated, and that is a special point of this order.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And just before we leave that document, have a look at the entry on 18 January, will you? Have you got it? 18 January.

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: That is the actual order for sinking without warning. You notice the last sentence: “Ships of the United States, Italy, Japan, and Russia are exempted from these attacks.”

And then Spain is added in pencil. Is it not right that you were out to terrorize the small neutrals and to bully them, but you were not running any risks with the big ones?

WAGNER: No, that is not correct. The explanation is, of course, that one must take military disadvantages into the bargain if one can obtain political advantages for them.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Oh, yes, it was just entirely a question of how it paid you politically. That is all it was, was it not?

WAGNER: Of course, all military actions were strongly influenced by the political interests of one’s own country.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And because the Danes and the Swedes were not in any position to make any serious protest, it did not matter sinking their ships at sight. That is right, is it not?

WAGNER: The motivation you give to this conduct is entirely incorrect.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, but what is the difference?

WAGNER: We sank the ships of all neutrals in these areas with the exception of those countries where we had a special political interest.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, you had no special political interest at this time for Norway and Sweden and Denmark, so you sank their ships at sight. That is right, is it not?

WAGNER: We sank them because they entered this area despite warning.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, but if a Russian ship or a Japanese ship did that, you would not sink it.

WAGNER: No, not at that period of time.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I just want to show you what you actually did. Would you look at Documents D-846 and 847?

My Lord, they are two new documents. They will be GB-452 and 453.

[Turning to the witness.] Will you look at the first of these, that is D-846? That is a telegram from your Minister at Copenhagen, dated 26 September 1939. That is before your first warning and before any of these zones had been declared. The second sentence:

“Sinking of Swedish and Finnish ships by our submarines has caused great anxiety here about Danish food transports to England.”

You see, you had started sinking ships of the small neutrals right away in the first three weeks of the war, had you not?

WAGNER: In single cases, yes; but there was always a very special reason in those cases. I know that several incidents occurred with Danish and Swedish ships in which ships had turned against the U-boat and the U-boat in turn because of this resistance was forced to attack the ship.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You do not think it was because the blame could be put upon mines?

WAGNER: At this period not at all.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Look at the second telegram, if you would; 26 March 1940, again from the German Minister at Copenhagen. It is the first paragraph:

“The King of Denmark today summoned me to his presence in order to tell me what a deep impression the sinking of six Danish ships last week, apparently without warning, had made on him and on the whole country.”

And then, passing on two sentences:

“I replied that the reason why the ships sank had not yet been clarified. In any case, our naval units always kept strictly to the Prize Regulations; but vessels sailing in enemy convoy or in the vicinity of the convoy took upon themselves all the risks of war. If there were any cases of sinking without warning, it seemed that they could be traced back to the German notifications made to date.

“At the same time I stressed the danger of the waters around the British coast, where neutral shipping would inevitably be involved in compromising situations on account of measures taken by the British. The King assured me emphatically that none of the Danish ships had sailed in convoy, but it would probably never be possible subsequently to clear up without possibility of doubt the incidents which had led to the sinking.”

Have you any doubt that those six ships were sunk deliberately under your sink-at-sight policy?

WAGNER: Without checking the individual cases, I cannot answer this question; but I am of the opinion that possibly these ships were sunk in that area off the English coast where, because of heavy military defenses, there would no longer be any question of open sea.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. We will come to an incident where I think I can supply you with the details. Would you look at Document D-807?

My Lord, that is a new document, it becomes GB-454.

[Turning to the witness.] You see, this document is dated 31 January 1940; and it refers to the sinking of three neutral ships, the Deptford, the Thomas Walton, and the Garoufalia. The document is in three parts. It first sets out the facts as they were known to you. The second part is a note to the Foreign Office, and the third is a draft reply for your Foreign Office to send to the neutral governments; and if you look at the end of the document you will see “IA”; it emanates from your department.

“It is proposed in replying to Norwegian notes to admit only the sinking by a German U-boat of the steamship Deptford, but to deny the sinking of the two other steamers.”

Would you follow it.

“According to the data attached to the notes presented by the Norwegian Government, the grounds for suspecting a torpedo to have been the cause of the sinkings do in fact appear to be equally strong in all these cases. According to the Norwegian Foreign Minister’s speech of 19 January, the suspicion in Norway of torpedoing by a German U-boat appears, however, to be strongest in the case of the steamship Deptford, whereas in the other two cases it is at least assumed that the possibility of striking mines can be taken into account; this is considered improbable in the case of the steamship Deptford, because other vessels had passed the same spot.

“The possibility that the steamship Thomas Walton struck a mine can be supported, since the torpedoing occurred towards evening and nothing was observed, and also because several explosions took place in the same area owing to misses by torpedoes.

“In the case of the steamship Garoufalia, a denial appears expedient, if only because a neutral steamer is concerned, which was attacked without warning. Since it was attacked by means of an electric torpedo, no torpedo wake could be observed.”

Do you say in the face of that that you did not deceive the neutrals? That is the advice you were giving to the Defendant Raeder as his staff officer, is it not?

WAGNER: This memorandum did not emanate from me; it emanated from “Iia.”

COL. PHILLIMORE: Where does it originate?

WAGNER: That is the assistant of the expert on international law.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You would not have seen it?

WAGNER: I do not recall this document.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Why do you say it emanated from “Iia?” It has “Ia” at the end of it.

WAGNER: If this memorandum was dispatched then I also saw it...

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will just read the next part of the note to remind you.

“The following facts have thus been ascertained:”—this is what you are writing to the Foreign Office—

“The steamer Deptford was sunk by a German U-boat on 13 December...”

I am sorry. I should have started earlier.

“It is suggested that Norwegian notes regarding the sinking of the steamships Deptford, Thomas Walton, and Garoufalia be answered somewhat in the following manner:

“As a result of the communication from the Norwegian Government, the matter of the sinking of the steamships Deptford, Thomas Walton, and Garoufalia has been thoroughly investigated. The following facts have thus been ascertained:

“The steamer Deptford was sunk by a German U-boat on 13 December, as it was recognized as an armed enemy ship. According to the report of the U-boat commander, the sinking did not take place within territorial waters but immediately outside. The German Naval Forces have strict instructions not to undertake any war operations within neutral territorial waters. Should the U-boat commander have miscalculated his position, as appears to be borne out by the findings of the Norwegian authorities, and should Norwegian territorial waters have been violated in consequence, the German Government regrets this most sincerely. As a result of this incident, the German Naval Forces have once again been instructed unconditionally to respect neutral territorial waters. If a violation of Norwegian territorial waters has indeed occurred, there will be no repetition of it.

“As far as the sinking of the steamships Thomas Walton and Garoufalia is concerned, this cannot be traced to operations by German U-boats, as at the time of the sinking none of them were in the naval area indicated.”

And then there is a draft reply put forward which is on very much the same lines.

And you say in the face of that document that the German Navy never misled the neutrals?

WAGNER: The neutrals had been advised that in these areas dangers of war might be encountered. We were of the opinion that we were not obliged to tell them through which war measures these areas were dangerous, or through which war measures their ships were lost.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Is that really your answer to this document? This is a complete lie, is it not? You admit the one sinking that you cannot get away from. And you deny the others. You deny that there was a German U-boat anywhere near, and you are telling this Tribunal that you were justified in order to conceal the weapons you were using. Is that the best answer you can give?

WAGNER: Yes, certainly. We had no interest at all in letting the enemy know what methods we were using in this area.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You are admitting that one of them was sunk by a U-boat. Why not admit the other two as well? Why not say it was the same U-boat?

WAGNER: I assume that we were concerned with another area in which the situation was different.

COL. PHILLIMORE: What was the difference? Why did you not say, “One of our U-boats has made a mistake or disobeyed orders, and is responsible for all these three sinkings?” Or, alternatively, why did you not say, “We have given you fair warning, we are going to sink at sight anyone in this area. And what is your complaint?”

WAGNER: Obviously I did not consider it expedient.

COL. PHILLIMORE: It was considered expedient to deceive the neutrals. And you, an Admiral in the German Navy, told me you did not do that ten minutes ago. As a matter of fact, these three boats were all sunk by the same U-boat, were they not?

WAGNER: I cannot tell you that at the moment.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I say they were all sunk by U-38, and the dates of sinking were: the Deptford, on 13 December, the Garoufalia on the 11th, and the Thomas Walton on the 7th. Do you dispute that?

WAGNER: I did not understand the last sentence.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you dispute those details, or do you not remember?

WAGNER: I cannot recall; but I actually believe it is impossible.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will show you another instance of deceiving the neutrals, and this time it was your friends, the Spanish. Would you look at C-105?

My Lord, that is a new document; it becomes GB-455. It is an extract from the SKL War Diary for 19 December 1940.

[Turning to the witness.] You kept the SKL War Diary yourself at that time, did you not?

WAGNER: No, I did not keep it, but I signed it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You signed it. Did you read it before you signed it?

WAGNER: The essential parts, yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You see, it reads: “News from the Neutrals,” and it is headed “Spain”:

“According to a report from the naval attaché, Spanish fishing vessel was sunk by a submarine of unknown nationality between Las Palmas and Cape Juby. In the rescue boats the crew was subjected to machine gun fire. Three men badly wounded. Landed at Las Palmas on 18 December. Italians suspected. (Possibility it might have been U-37).”

Then on 20 December, the next day:

“Commander, Submarine Fleet, will be informed of Spanish report regarding sinking of Spanish fishing vessel by submarine of unknown nationality on 16 December between Las Palmas and Cape Juby, and requested to conduct an investigation. On the responsibility of the Naval Operations Staff it is confirmed to our naval attaché in Madrid that, regarding the sinking, there is no question of a German submarine.”

When you reported that, you thought it possible, did you not, that it might have been U-37; is that not so?

WAGNER: It seems to me that in the meantime it became known that it was not U-37.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will read on. This is under date of 21 December:

“U-37 reports: a torpedo fired at a tanker of the Kopbard type (7329) ran off in a circle and probably hit an Amphitrite submarine in the tanker’s convoy. Tanker burned out. Spanish steamer St. Carlos (300) without distinguishing marks, through concentrated gunfire. Nine torpedoes left.

“Then U-37 torpedoed French tanker Rhone and the submarine Sfax and sank the Spanish fishing vessel.”

And then, if you will read the next entry.

“We shall continue to maintain to the outside world that there is no question of a German or Italian submarine in the sea area in question being responsible for the sinkings.”

Do you still say that you did not deceive the neutrals?

WAGNER: This case is doubtless a deception, but I do not remember for what particular reason this deception was carried through.

COL. PHILLIMORE: But it is pretty discreditable, is it not? Do you regard that as creditable to the German Navy, that conduct?

WAGNER: No, this...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did the Defendant Raeder sign the War Diary?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you tell the Defendant Dönitz what answer you were giving to the Spaniards and the Norwegians?

WAGNER: That I do not recall.

COL. PHILLIMORE: He would get a copy, would he not?

WAGNER: I did not understand you.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You would send him a copy, would you not, of your note to the Foreign Office?

WAGNER: That is possible.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Phillimore, does the signature of the Defendant Raeder appear at the end of this document, C-105?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I regret to say I have not checked that. But as the witness has said, the practice was that he was to sign the War Diary, and that the Commander-in-Chief was to sign it periodically.

Is that right, Witness?

WAGNER: Yes. On the next page, on 21 December my signature appears as well as those of Admiral Fricke, Admiral Schniewind, and Admiral Raeder.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I would be very grateful to the Prosecution if the documents which concern the Defendant Raeder would also be given to me, for it is relatively difficult for me to follow the situation otherwise. I have received none of these documents.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I am extremely sorry, My Lord. That is my fault, and I will see that Dr. Siemers has the copies tonight.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now at this point until tomorrow morning.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 14 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]

ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-NINTH DAY Tuesday, 14 May 1946

Morning Session

[The witness Wagner resumed the stand.]

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you remember the sinking of the Monte Corbea in September 1942?

WAGNER: I have some recollection of it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: That was the ship in respect to which the Defendant Dönitz sent a telegram to the U-boat commander, threatening him with court-martial on his return because he had sunk the ship after recognizing it as a neutral. Now, in 1942 the friendship of Spain was very important to Germany, was it not?

WAGNER: I assume so.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You told us yesterday that Admiral Raeder was considering Mediterranean policy—recommending it. Now that was the reason, was it not, why the U-boat commander was threatened with court-martial, that it mattered in 1942 if you sank a Spanish ship?

WAGNER: No, that was not the reason. The reason was that the commander of the U-boat in question had obviously not acted according to the directives of the Commander of U-boats.

COL. PHILLIMORE: It did not matter in 1940 when you thought you were winning the war, but in September 1942 I suggest to you it became politically inexpedient to sink a Spanish ship; is that not right?

WAGNER: You will have to ask the political departments of the German Reich about that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: If that is the answer, do you think it is unfair to describe your attitude to the sinking of neutral ships as cynical and opportunist?

WAGNER: No, I reject that absolutely.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I want to ask you one or two questions about the witness Heisig. You spoke yesterday of a conversation in the jail here in the first week of December 1945.

WAGNER: In December 1945?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. You knew at the time you spoke to Heisig that he was going to be called as a witness, did you not?

WAGNER: That could be assumed from his presence here at Nuremberg.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And you knew you were going to be called as a witness, did you not?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not tell the defense lawyers about this conversation until quite recently?

WAGNER: I did not understand the sense of your question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not report this conversation with Heisig to the defense lawyers until quite recently?

WAGNER: I think it was in February or March when I told the Defense Counsel about this conversation.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now I just want to put the dates to you. The U-boat Commander Eck was sentenced to death on 20 October. Do you know that?

WAGNER: I did not know the date.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Death sentence was passed by the Commission on 21 November and he was executed on 30 November. That is to say he was executed before you had this conversation. Did you know that?

WAGNER: No. I just discovered that now.

COL. PHILLIMORE: At any rate, the witness Heisig knew it before he gave his evidence, did he not?

WAGNER: Obviously not. Otherwise, he would most likely have told me about it. Previously, he had for 10 days...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Will you just listen to a question and answer from his cross-examination. It is Page 2676 of the transcript (Volume V, Page 227). This is a question by Dr. Kranzbühler:

“In your hearing on 27 November were you not told that the death sentence against Eck and Hoffmann had already been set?”

Answer: “I do not know whether it was on 27 November. I know only that here I was told of the fact that the death sentence had been carried out. The date I cannot remember. I was in several hearings.”

Now if that is right...

THE PRESIDENT: What date was that evidence given?

COL. PHILLIMORE: That was given on 14 January, My Lord; Page 2676 of the transcript (Volume V, Page 227).

WAGNER: I did not understand who gave this testimony.

COL. PHILLIMORE: The witness Heisig, when he gave evidence here in Court. So that whether or not he was deceived, as you suggest, before he gave his affidavit, he at least knew the true facts before he gave evidence here to the Tribunal?

WAGNER: Then he told an untruth to me.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to ask you one question on the order of 17 September 1942. That is the order that you say you monitored in the naval war staff and saw nothing wrong with it. Did the Defendant Raeder see that order?

WAGNER: That I cannot say with certainty.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were Chief of Staff Operations at that time?

WAGNER: Yes, but one cannot expect me to remember every incident in 6 years of war.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Oh, no, but this was an important order, was it not?

WAGNER: Certainly, but there were many important orders in the course of 6 years.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Would you normally show an important operational order to the Commander-in-Chief?

WAGNER: It was my task to submit all important matters to the Chief of Staff of the Naval Operations Staff, and he decided which matters were to be submitted to the Grossadmiral.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Are you saying that you would not have shown this to the Chief of Staff?

WAGNER: No. I am sure he had knowledge of it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Have you any doubt that this order would have been shown to Admiral Raeder?

WAGNER: That I cannot say; I do not recall whether he received it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now I want to ask one or two questions about your tasks as Admiral, Special Duties. You became Admiral, Special Duties, in June 1944, is that right?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And from then on you attended the important conferences with Admiral Dönitz and in his absence represented him, did you not?

WAGNER: I never participated in any discussions as his representative. Dönitz was represented by the Chief of the SKL.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now at that stage of the war all questions were important insofar as they affected military operations in one way or another, were they not?

WAGNER: At every stage of the war all military questions are of importance.

COL. PHILLIMORE: What I am putting to you is that at that stage of the war the importance of all questions chiefly depended on how they affected the military situation.

WAGNER: Yes, that, I imagine, one has to admit.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And during that period Germany was virtually governed by the decisions taken at the Führer’s headquarters, was it not?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now I want you to look at a record of one of Admiral Dönitz’ visits—My Lord, this is D-863; it is a new document and becomes Exhibit GB-456.

Now that is a record of a visit to the Führer’s headquarters on 28 and 29 of August 1943. You were not there yourself, but your immediate superior Vice Admiral Meisel accompanied Admiral Dönitz, and the names of the Naval Delegation are set out at the top of the page: Admiral Dönitz, Vice Admiral Meisel, Kapitän zur See Rehm, et cetera. And your program as set out was: After your arrival, at 1130, conversation with Commander-in-Chief Navy, Commander-in-Chief Luftwaffe; 1300, situation conference with the Führer, closing with a further conversation between the Commander-in-Chief Navy and the Commander-in-Chief Luftwaffe; then at 1600 the Commander-in-Chief Navy left. After that Admiral Meisel had a conversation with Ambassador Ritter of the Foreign Office. Then a conversation with General Jodl, an evening conference with the Führer, and then at midnight a conference with Reichsführer-SS Himmler. On the next day the usual conference with the Führer; then a conference with the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force. And then he left.

Now, is that a fair sample of what went on whenever Admiral Dönitz visited; that he had conversations, various conferences with other officials?

WAGNER: That is a typical example of a visit of the Grossadmiral at the headquarters, insofar as he participated only in situation conferences with the Führer, and in addition he had military discussions with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that shows, does it not, the whole business of government being carried on at the Führer’s headquarters?

WAGNER: No, not at all. I have already said the Grossadmiral only participated at the situation conference, that is, the military situation conference with the Führer and beyond that one or even two discussions with the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And with General Jodl or Field Marshal Keitel, somebody from the Foreign Office, and so on?

WAGNER: Otherwise the Grossadmiral had no discussions of any sort, as can be seen from the document, for on 28 August at 1600 hours he returned by air. The other discussions were discussions of the Chief of Staff of the SKL, the...

COL. PHILLIMORE: But I was putting it to you that this was a typical visit. If Admiral Dönitz had not left, he would have had these other conversations and not Admiral Meisel, is that not right?

WAGNER: No, not at all. The Chief of Staff of the SKL very rarely had the opportunity of coming to headquarters; and according to the record here, he obviously used his opportunity to contact a few of the leading...

COL. PHILLIMORE: I do not want to waste time with it. I suggest to you that when Admiral Dönitz went there he normally saw many other ministers and conversed with them on any business affecting the Navy.

WAGNER: Naturally, the Admiral discussed all questions affecting the Navy with those who were concerned with them.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to ask you one or two questions on the minutes with regard to the Geneva Convention—that is C-158, GB-209, Page 69 of the English Prosecution’s document book, or Page 102 of the German. Will you look at Page 102.

Now you, as you told us yesterday, initialed those minutes, did you not; and a copy was marked to you, is that not right?

WAGNER: Yes, I signed these minutes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes; were they accurate?

WAGNER: They contained salient points about the things which had happened at headquarters.

COL. PHILLIMORE: They were an accurate record, were they?

WAGNER: Undoubtedly I believed that things had taken place as they are recorded here.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, did you agree with Admiral Dönitz’ advice that it would be better to carry out the measures considered necessary without warning and at all costs to save face with the outer world? Did you agree with that?

WAGNER: I already explained yesterday, clearly and unequivocally, how I interpreted this sentence which was formulated by me; and I have nothing to add to that statement. In the sense which I stated yesterday, I agree completely.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And the step which Hitler wanted to take was to put prisoners of war in the bombed towns, was it not? Was that not the breach of the Convention that he wanted to make?

WAGNER: No, it was the renunciation of all the Geneva agreements; not only the agreement about prisoners of war, but also the agreement on hospitals ships, the Red Cross agreement, and other agreements which had been made at Geneva.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Then what were the measures considered necessary which could be taken without warning? Just look at that sentence.

WAGNER: I do not understand that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Look at the last sentence, “It would be better to carry out the measures considered necessary.” What were those measures?

WAGNER: They were not discussed at all.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you see any difference between the advice which Admiral Dönitz was giving them and the advice which you described as the rather romantic ideas of a young expert on the document about sinking without warning at night? Let me put it to you; what the naval officer said on the Document C-191 was: “Sink without warning. Do not give written permission. Say it was a mistake for an armed merchant cruiser...”

We have Admiral Dönitz saying, “Do not break the rules, tell no one about it and at all costs save face with the world.”

Do you see any difference?

WAGNER: I already testified yesterday that the difference is very great. Admiral Dönitz opposed the renunciation of the Geneva Convention and said that even if measures to intimidate deserters or countermeasures against bombing attacks on cities were to be taken, the Geneva Convention should not be renounced in any case.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to put to you a few questions about prisoners of war. So far as naval prisoners of war were concerned, they remained in the custody of the Navy, did they not?

WAGNER: I am not informed about the organization of prisoner-of-war camps. According to my recollection they were first put into a naval transit camp. Then they were sent to other camps; but I do not know whether these camps were under the jurisdiction of the Navy or the OKW.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Have you not seen the defense documents about the Camp Marlag telling us how well they were treated? Have you not seen them?

WAGNER: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, naval prisoners, when they were captured by your forces, their capture was reported to the naval war staff, was it not?

WAGNER: Such captures were, in general, reported as part of the situation reports.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, do you remember the Commando Order of 18 October 1942?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You actually signed the order passing that Führer Order on to commands, did you not?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the document is C-179, and that was put in as United States Exhibit 543 (USA-543). It is in that bundle that Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe handed to the Tribunal when cross-examining the defendant. I think it is either the last or very near to the last document in the bundle.

[Turning to the witness.] Did you approve of that order?

WAGNER: I regretted that one had to resort to this order, but in the first paragraph the reasons for it are set forth so clearly that I had to recognize its justification.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You knew what handing over to the SD meant, did you not? You knew that meant shooting?

WAGNER: No, that could have meant a lot of things.

COL. PHILLIMORE: What did you think it meant?

WAGNER: It could have meant that the people were interrogated for the counterintelligence; it could have meant that they were to be kept imprisoned under more severe conditions, and finally it could have meant that they might be shot.

COL. PHILLIMORE: But you had no doubt that it meant that they might be shot, had you?

WAGNER: The possibility that they might be shot undoubtedly existed.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, and did that occur to you when you signed the order sending it on to commanders?

WAGNER: I would like to refer to Paragraph 1 of this order, where it...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you mind answering the question? Did it occur to you that they might be shot when you signed the order sending it on to commanders?

WAGNER: Yes, the possibility was clear to me.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, the witness was asked whether he approved of this order. I do not think that Colonel Phillimore can cut off the witness’ answer by saying that he may not refer to Paragraph 1 of the order. I believe that Paragraph 1 of the order is of decisive importance for this witness. Mr. President, the witness Admiral Wagner...

THE PRESIDENT: You have an opportunity of re-examining the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Then why do you interrupt?

DR. SIEMERS: Because Colonel Phillimore has interrupted the answer of the witness and I believe that even in cross-examination the answer of the witness must be at least heard.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal does not agree with you.

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I understood him to have already made some point that the defendant made once? I only interrupted him when he sought to make it again.

[Turning to the witness.] I put my question once again. When you signed the order sending this document on to lower commanders, did it occur to you then that these men would probably be shot?

WAGNER: The possibility that these people who were turned over to the SD might be shot was clear to me.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Was it also...

WAGNER: I have not finished yet. But only those people who had not been captured by the Wehrmacht were to be handed over to the SD.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did it also occur to you that they would be shot without trial?

WAGNER: Yes, that can be concluded from the order.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And what do you mean by saying that it only referred to those not captured by the Wehrmacht? Would you look at Paragraph 3.

“From now on all enemies on so-called Commando missions in Europe or Africa, challenged by German troops, even if they are to all appearances soldiers in uniform or demolition troops, whether armed or unarmed, in battle or in flight, are to be slaughtered to the last man. It does not make any difference whether they landed from ships or airplanes for their actions of whether they were dropped by parachutes. Even if these individuals when found should apparently seem to give themselves up, no pardon is to be granted them on principle. In each individual case full information is to be sent to the OKW for publication in the OKW communiqué.”

Are you saying it did not refer to men captured by the military forces?

WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that statement. There is nothing in the entire paragraph which says these men who were captured by the Wehrmacht were to be turned over to the SD. That was the question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, read on in the last paragraph.

“If individual members of such Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs, et cetera, fall into the hands of the military forces by some other means, for example through the Police in occupied territories, they are to be handed over immediately to the SD.”

WAGNER: Yes. It is expressly stated here that only those people are to be turned over to the SD who are not captured by the Wehrmacht but by the Police; in that case the Wehrmacht could not take them over.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Indeed it is not. That capture by the Police is given as one possible instance. But you know, you know in practice, do you not, that there were several instances where Commandos were captured by the Navy and handed over to the SD under this order? Do you not know that?

WAGNER: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, let me just remind you. Would you look at Document 512-PS.

That is also in that bundle, My Lord, as United States Exhibit 546 (USA-546). It is the second document. According to the last sentence of the Führer Order of 18 October:

“Individual saboteurs can be spared for the time being in order to keep them for interrogation. Importance of this measure was proven in the cases of Glomfjord, the two-man torpedo at Trondheim, and the glider plane at Stavanger, where interrogations resulted in valuable knowledge of enemy intentions.”

And then it goes on to another case, the case of the Geronde.

Do you say that you do not remember the two-man torpedo attack on the Tirpitz in Trondheim Fjord?

WAGNER: No, no. I am not asserting that I do not remember it. I do remember it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Did you not see in the Wehrmacht communiqué after that attack what had happened to the man who was captured?

WAGNER: I cannot recall it at the moment.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Let me just remind you. One man was captured, Robert Paul Evans, just as he was getting across the Swedish border, and he was—that attack took place in October 1942—he was executed in January 1943, on 19 January 1943.

My Lord, the reference to that might be convenient; it is Document UK-57, which was put in as Exhibit GB-64.

[Turning to the witness.]

Do you say that you do not remember seeing any report of his capture or of his shooting or of his interrogation?

WAGNER: No, I believe I remember that, but this man...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now what do you remember? Just tell us what you remember. Do you remember seeing his capture reported?

WAGNER: I no longer know that. I remember there was a report that a considerable time after the attack on the Tirpitz a man was captured, but to my knowledge not by the Navy.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Would you look at the Document D-864, a sworn statement.

My Lord, through some error I am afraid I have not got it here. May I just put the facts, and if necessary put in the document if I can produce it in time.

[Turning to the witness.] I suggest to you that Robert Paul Evans, after his capture, was personally interrogated by the Commander-in-Chief, Navy, of the Norwegian North Coast. Do you say you know nothing of that?

WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that I do not remember it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You see, this was the first two-man torpedo attack by the British Navy against the German naval forces, was it not? That is so, is it not?

WAGNER: Yes, that is possible.

COL. PHILLIMORE: No, but you must know that, do you not? You were Chief of Staff Operations at the time.

WAGNER: I believe it was the first time.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that the results of that important interrogation were not reported to you in the naval war staff?

WAGNER: They were certainly reported, but nevertheless I cannot remember that the Commanding Admiral in Norway actually conducted this interrogation.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you see a report by that admiral?

WAGNER: I do not know where it originated, but I am certain I saw a report of that kind.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Was it clear to you that that report was based on interrogation?

WAGNER: Yes, I think so.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And you say you did not know that this man Evans, some two months after his capture, was taken out and shot under the Führer order?

WAGNER: Yes, I maintain that I do not remember that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will put you another instance. Do you remember the Bordeaux incident in December 1942?

That is 526-PS, My Lord. That is also in the bundle. It was originally put in as United States Exhibit 502 (USA-502).

[Turning to the witness.] I am sorry; it is the Toftefjord incident I am putting to you, 526-PS. Do you remember this incident in Toftefjord in March 1943?

WAGNER: I do remember that about this time an enemy cutter was seized in a Norwegian fjord.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. And did you not see in the Wehrmacht communiqué “Führer Order executed”?

WAGNER: If it said so in the Wehrmacht communiqué then I must have read it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Have you any doubt that you knew that the men captured in that attack were shot, and that you knew it at the time?

WAGNER: Apparently he was shot while being captured.

COL. PHILLIMORE: If you look at the document:

“Enemy cutter engaged. Cutter blown up by the enemy. Crew, 2 dead men, 10 prisoners.”

Then look down:

“Führer Order executed by SD.”

That means those 10 men were shot, does it not?

WAGNER: It must mean that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Now I just put to you the document that I referred to on the Trondheim episode, D-864. This is an affidavit by a man who was in charge of the SD at Bergen and later at Trondheim, and it is the second paragraph:

“I received the order by teletype letter or radiogram from the Commander of the Security Police and the SD, Oslo, to transfer Evans from Trondheim Missions Hotel to the BDS, Oslo.

“I cannot say who signed the radiogram or the teletype letter from Oslo. I am not sure to whom I transmitted the order, but I think it was to Hauptsturmführer Hollack. I know that the Commanding Admiral of the Norwegian Northern Coast had interrogated Evans himself.”

And then he goes on to deal with Evans’ clothing.

I put it to you once again: Do you say that you did not know from the Admiral, Northern Coast himself that he had interrogated this man?

WAGNER: Yes, I am asserting that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, I will take you to one more incident which you knew about, as is shown by your own war diary. Would you look at the Document D-658.

My Lord, this document was put in as GB-229.

[Turning to the witness.] Now, that is an extract from the SKL War Diary, is it not?

WAGNER: Let me examine it first. I do not have the impression that...

COL. PHILLIMORE: You said yesterday that it was from the war diary of the Naval Commander, West France, but I think that was a mistake, was it not?

WAGNER: I did not make any statement yesterday on the origin of the war diary.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Just read the first sentence. I think it shows clearly it was the SKL War Diary.

“9 December 1942. The Naval Commander, West France, reports”—and then it sets out the incident. And then, the third sentence:

“The Naval Commander, West France, has ordered that both soldiers be shot immediately for attempted sabotage if their interrogation, which has been begun, confirms what has so far been discovered; their execution has, however, been postponed in order to obtain more information.

“According to a Wehrmacht report”—I think that is a mistranslation; it should be “According to the Wehrmacht communiqué”—“both soldiers had meanwhile been shot. The measure would be in accordance with the Führer’s special order, but is nevertheless something new in international law, since the soldiers were in uniform.”

That is from the SKL War Diary, is it not?

WAGNER: I do not think that this is the War Diary of the SKL; but rather it would seem to be the war diary of the Naval Group Command, West, or the Commanding Admiral in France.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, I will get the original here and clear the matter up later, but I suggest to you that this is the SKL War Diary, which at the time...

WAGNER: I cannot recognize that assertion until it is proved by the original.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And I suggest to you that you, who were Chief of Staff Operations at the time, must have been fully aware of that incident. Do you deny that?

WAGNER: I deny—I maintain that I do not remember that affair.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that a matter of that sort would not be reported to you?

WAGNER: I have been told here that the order to shoot these people was obtained from headquarters directly by the SD.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, finally, I put to you the incident of the capture of the seven seamen, six of the Norwegian Navy and one of the Royal Navy, at Ulven near Bergen in July 1943. That is the document D-649 in the Prosecution document book, GB-208.

Do you remember this incident? Do you remember the capture of these seven men by Admiral Von Schrader with his two task forces?

WAGNER: I saw this paper while I was being interrogated, and that is why I remember it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: But do you remember the incident?

WAGNER: No, not from my personal recollection.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were still Chief of Staff Operations.

THE PRESIDENT: Which page?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is Page 67 of the English document book, Page 100 in the German.

[Turning to the witness.] Do you say that as Chief of Staff Operations you do not remember any of these incidents?

WAGNER: Yes, I assert and maintain what I have already said about this.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did not your operational—did your commanders not report when they captured an enemy Commando?

WAGNER: I must assume that those things were also reported in the situation reports.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, you are really suggesting that you have forgotten all about these incidents now?

WAGNER: In all my testimony I have strictly adhered to what I personally remember.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you know what happened to these men? You know they were captured in uniform, do you not? There was a naval officer with gold braid around his arm. That is a badge you use in the German Navy, is it not?

WAGNER: I have already said that I do not recall this affair.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, let me just tell you and remind you. After interrogation by naval officers and officers of the SD, both of whom recommended prisoner-of-war treatment, these men were handed over by the Navy to the SD for shooting. They were taken to a concentration camp, and at 4 o’clock in the morning they were led out one by one, blindfolded, fettered, not told they were going to be shot, and shot one by one on the rifle range. Do you know that?

WAGNER: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you know that is what handing over to the SD meant?

WAGNER: I have already said that handing over to the SD implied several possibilities.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you know that then their bodies were sunk in the fjord with charges attached, and destroyed, as it says in the document, “in the usual way”—Paragraph 10 of the affidavit—and their belongings in the concentration camp were burned?

WAGNER: No, I do not know that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. A further point: Do you remember that in March or April 1945, at the very end of the war, do you remember that this order, the Führer Order, was cancelled by Keitel?

That is Paragraph 11 of the affidavit, My Lord.

Do you remember that? Just read it.

WAGNER: Yes, I have heard of that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. You thought you were losing the war by then, and you had better cancel the Commando Order, is that not the fact?

WAGNER: I do not know for what reasons the OKW rescinded orders.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Is not this right: You did not worry about this order in 1942 when you thought you were winning the war, but when you found you were losing it, you began to worry about international law. Is not that what happened?

WAGNER: It is absolutely impossible for me to investigate orders. This paragraph of the Commando Order states clearly and distinctly that these Commandos had orders—that these Commandos were composed partly of criminal elements of the occupied territories—that they had orders to kill prisoners whom they found a burden, that other Commandos had orders to kill all captives; and that orders to this effect had fallen into our hands.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Did you ever make any inquiries to see whether that was true?

WAGNER: It is absolutely impossible for me to investigate official information which I receive from my superiors.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were Chief of Staff Operations; you received every report on the Commando raids, did you not?

WAGNER: I gave detailed evidence in each individual case, but I cannot make a general statement.

COL. PHILLIMORE: When you were Chief of Staff Operations, did you not receive a full report every time there was a British Commando raid?

WAGNER: I have already said that I believe such incidents formed part of the situation reports to the SKL.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I suggest you can answer that question perfectly straight if you wanted to. Here you were, a Senior Staff Officer, Commando Raids. Are you saying you did not personally see and read a full report on every one?

WAGNER: I am not asserting that. I have answered each individual question by stating exactly what I remember.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that taking these men out and shooting them without a trial, without telling them they were going to be shot, without seeing a priest, do you say that...

WAGNER: With regard to the Navy...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you say that was not murder?

WAGNER: I do not wish to maintain that at all. I do maintain that I was presumably told about the cases in which men were shot by the Navy, and I am of the opinion that these people who were captured as saboteurs were not soldiers, but were criminals who, in accordance with their criminal...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Let us get it perfectly clear. Are you saying that the action taken in shooting these Commandos on all these occasions—are you saying that was perfectly, proper and justified? I thought you agreed with me it was murder, just now. Which is it?

WAGNER: I would like to answer that in each individual case.

COL. PHILLIMORE: It is a very simple question to answer generally and it takes less time. Do you say that men captured in uniform should be taken out and shot without trial?

WAGNER: I cannot consider men of whom I know that they have orders to commit crimes, as soldiers, within international law.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Are you saying that this action was perfectly proper—are you?

WAGNER: Yes, entirely and perfectly.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Shoot helpless prisoners without trial, bully little neutrals who cannot complain? That is your policy, is it?

WAGNER: Not at all.

COL. PHILLIMORE: What crime did Robert Paul Evans commit, who attacked the Tirpitz in a two-man torpedo?

WAGNER: I am convinced it was proved that he belonged to a sabotage unit, and that besides the purely naval character of the attack on the ship, there were other aspects which marked him as a saboteur.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And you said just now that you did not remember the incident?

WAGNER: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Will you agree on this, will you agree with me, that if this shooting by the SD was murder, you and Admiral Dönitz and Admiral Raeder, who signed the orders under which this was done, are just as guilty as the men who shot them?

WAGNER: The person who issued the order is responsible for it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that person who passed it and approved it; is not that right?

WAGNER: I assume full responsibility for the transmission of this order.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Your Lordship, I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Phillimore, D-658 was an old exhibit, was it not?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you given new exhibit numbers to all the new documents?

COL. PHILLIMORE: I am very much obliged, Your Lordship. I did omit to give a new exhibit number to the affidavit by Flesch.

THE PRESIDENT: D-864.

COL. PHILLIMORE: D-864. My Lord, it should be GB-457. My Lord, I am very sorry. I was not advised, but I got it.

THE PRESIDENT: And all the others you have given numbers to?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Is there any other cross-examination? Then, does Dr. Kranzbühler wish to re-examine? Dr. Kranzbühler, I see it is nearly half-past eleven, so perhaps we had better adjourn for ten minutes.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Before Dr. Kranzbühler goes on with his re-examination, I shall announce the Tribunal’s decisions with reference to the applications which were made recently in court.

The first application on behalf of the Defendant Von Schirach was for a witness Hans Marsalek to be produced for cross-examination, and that application is granted.

The second application was for interrogatories to a witness Kaufmann, and that is granted.

The next matter was an application on behalf of the Defendant Hess for five documents; and as to that, the Tribunal orders that two of the documents applied for under Heads B and D in Dr. Seidl’s application have already been published in the Reichsgesetzblatt, and one of them is already in evidence, and they will, therefore, be admitted.

The Tribunal considers that the documents applied for under Heads C and E of Dr. Seidl’s application are unsatisfactory and have no evidential value; and since it does not appear from Dr. Seidl’s application and the matters referred to therein that the alleged copies are copies of any original documents, the application is denied in respect thereof. But leave is granted to Dr. Seidl to file a further affidavit by Gaus covering his recollection of what was in the alleged agreements.

The application on behalf of the Defendant Funk for an affidavit by a witness called Kallus is granted.

The application on behalf of the Defendant Streicher is denied. The application on behalf of the Defendant Sauckel firstly for a witness named Biedermann is granted, and secondly for four documents; that application is also granted.

The application on behalf of the Defendant Seyss-Inquart for an interrogatory to Dr. Stuckart is granted.

The application on behalf of the Defendant Frick is granted for an interrogatory to a witness, Dr. Konrad.

The application on behalf of the Defendant Göring with reference to two witnesses is granted in the sense that the witnesses are to be alerted.

The application on behalf of the Defendants Hess and Frank for official information from the ministry of war of the United States of America is denied.

That is all.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I would like to put another question to you on the subject of the Commando Order.

Did the Naval Operations Staff have any part in introducing this order?

WAGNER: No, no part at all.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you, did the Naval Operations Staff have the possibility, either before or during the drafting of the order, of investigating the correctness of the particulars mentioned in Paragraph 1 of the order?

WAGNER: No, such a possibility did not exist.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The treatment of a man who had attacked the Tirpitz with a two-man torpedo in October 1942 has just been discussed here. Did you know that a year later, in the autumn of 1943, there was a renewed attack on the Tirpitz with two-man torpedoes, and that the British sailors who were captured at that time were treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention by the Navy, who had captured them?

WAGNER: The second attack on the Tirpitz is known to me. I do not remember the treatment of the prisoners.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You mentioned that the Naval Operations Staff possibly received reports on the statements made by men of Commando units. From what aspect did those reports interest the Naval Operations Staff? Did operational questions interest you, or the personal fate of these people?

WAGNER: Naturally we were interested in the tactical and operational problems so that we could gather experiences and draw our conclusions from them.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you actually remember seeing such a report?

WAGNER: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Just now a document was shown to you dealing with the treatment of a Commando unit captured in a Norwegian fjord. It is Number 526-PS. Do you still have that document?

WAGNER: Possibly, some documents are still lying here.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you have a look at that document. I am having the document handed to you. In the third paragraph you will find a reference to the fact that this Commando unit was carrying 1,000 kilograms of explosives. Is that correct?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you understand my question?

WAGNER: I answered “yes.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am sorry, I did not hear you.

In the fifth paragraph you will find that the Commando unit had orders to carry out sabotage against strong points, battery positions, troop barracks, and bridges, and to organize a system for the purpose of further sabotage. Is that correct?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did these assignments have anything to do with the Navy?

WAGNER: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you see any indication in the whole document which would suggest that the Navy had anything at all to do with the capture or the treatment of this Commando unit?

WAGNER: No, the document does not contain an indication of that sort.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were asked this morning about the case of the Monte Corbea. In connection with a court-martial ruling against the commander, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Raeder, sent a wireless message at that time to all commanders. This radiogram is recorded in Document Dönitz-78 in the document book, Volume IV, Page 230. I shall read that wireless message to you:

“The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy has personally and expressly renewed his instructions that all U-boat commanders must adhere strictly to the orders regarding the treatment of neutral ships. Any infringement of these orders has incalculable political consequences. This order is to be communicated to all commanders immediately.”

Do you see any suggestion here that the order is restricted to Spanish ships?

WAGNER: No, there is no such suggestion in this order.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I submit to you a document which was used yesterday, D-807. It deals with notes to the Norwegian Government on the sinking of several steamers and contains the drafts of these notes of the High Command of the Navy. Does this document yield any indication at all that the notes were actually sent, or is it impossible to tell from the drafts that the notes themselves were ever dispatched?

WAGNER: Since there are no initials or signatures on either of these letters; they may be drafts. At any rate, proof that they were actually sent is not apparent from this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you give us the page number of it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: It was submitted yesterday, Mr. President. It is not in any document book.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I now read to you the first sentence from another document which was put to you yesterday. Its number is D-846 and it concerns a discussion with the German Minister to Denmark, Renthe-Fink, on 26 September 1939. I shall read the first sentence to you:

“Sinking of Swedish and Finnish ships by our submarines have caused considerable concern here on account of the Danish food transports to Great Britain.”

Does this report give any indication that these sinkings took place without warning, or were these ships sunk because contraband was captured on them in the course of a legitimate search?

WAGNER: The sentence which you have just read does not show how these ships were sunk. As far as I remember the document from yesterday, it does not contain any reference to the way in which these ships were sunk, so that it must be assumed as a matter of course that they were sunk in accordance with the Prize Ordinance.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were asked yesterday whether you considered the German note to the neutral countries of 24 November 1939 a fair warning against entering certain waters and you answered the question in the affirmative. Is that right?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And then you were asked whether we had deceived the neutrals, and you answered that question with “no.” Did this negative answer apply to the previous question on the warning against sailing in certain waters, or did it refer to all the political measures with regard to neutral states which the German Government took in order to conceal their own political intentions?

WAGNER: The answer in that context referred to the previous questions which had been asked about warning the neutrals promptly of the measures which we adopted for the war at sea.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I want to make this point quite clear. Do you have any doubt whatever that the pretense of minefields in the operational zones around the British Coast served not only the purpose of deceiving the enemy defense, but also the political purpose of concealing from the neutrals the weapons which we employed in the war at sea?

WAGNER: Yes, I expressly confirm this two-fold purpose.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The two-fold purpose of secrecy?

WAGNER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you have any doubt whatever that the German Government denied to neutral governments that certain ships were sunk by U-boats, although they had in fact been sunk by U-boats?

WAGNER: Yes. Or rather, no. I have no doubt that the denials were formulated in that way, as a generally accepted political measure adopted wherever indicated.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yesterday you admitted the possibility that Admiral Dönitz, as Commander-in-Chief of U-boats, may have received knowledge from the Naval Operations Staff of the handling of political incidents caused by U-boats. Can you, after careful recollection, name a single instance when he did in fact receive from the SKL information on the political measures adopted?

WAGNER: No, I do not remember such an instance.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions.

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral, you have explained the basis of the Commando Order, as far as the Naval Operations Staff is concerned, by referring to Hitler’s definite assertions that he had in his possession enemy orders saying that prisoners were to be killed. In connection with this Commando Order Colonel Phillimore dealt with the case of the British sailor Evans in great detail. In my opinion that case has not so far been clarified. Colonel Phillimore spoke of the murder of a soldier. I think that in spite of the soundness of the documents the Prosecution is mistaken about the facts, also in a legal respect. Will you once more look at both documents, Document D-864...

Mr. President, that is Exhibit GB-457, discussed by Colonel Phillimore this morning.

This is an affidavit by Gerhard Flesch. The Prosecution quoted the sentence which states that the Commanding Admiral of the Northern Coast of Norway had interrogated Evans personally. Admiral Wagner, does that sentence show that Evans was a prisoner of the Navy?

WAGNER: No.

DR. SIEMERS: What was the situation according to the Flesch affidavit? Will you please clarify it?

WAGNER: According to the second paragraph of that affidavit, Evans must have been in the hands of the SD.

DR. SIEMERS: That is right.

And, Mr. President, may I add that at the beginning of the affidavit Flesch states that he was the commander of the Security Police. The Security Police had captured Evans; he was therefore a prisoner of the SD.

[Turning to the witness.] Is it correct, therefore, that the British sailor Evans was available to the German admiral in Norway for the sole purpose of being interrogated?

WAGNER: Undoubtedly.

DR. SIEMERS: And the admiral was interested in interrogating him merely to obtain purely factual information on the attack on the Tirpitz. Is that correct?

WAGNER: Quite correct.

DR. SIEMERS: May I ask you to look at the next paragraph of the Affidavit D-864? There it mentions Evans’ clothes, and says:

“It is not known to me that Evans wore a uniform. As far as I can remember, he was wearing blue overalls.”

Does this mean that Evans was not recognizable as a soldier?

WAGNER: No, probably not.

DR. SIEMERS: Will you now pass on to the Document UK-57 submitted by Colonel Phillimore?

Mr. President, this is Exhibit GB-164 and should be in the original Document Book Keitel, but I think it was newly submitted today.

[Turning to the witness.] You have a photostat copy, have you not?

WAGNER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Will you, please, turn to the fourth page. First, a question: Is it possible that this document was known to the Naval Operations Staff? Does the document indicate that it was sent to the Naval Operations Staff?

WAGNER: These are informal conference notes of the OKW which were apparently not sent to the Naval Operations Staff.

DR. SIEMERS: If I understand it correctly then, this is a document of the Intelligence Service of the OKW, is it not?

WAGNER: Yes. That is correct.

DR. SIEMERS: Under Figure 2 it says “attempted attack on the battleship Tirpitz.” The first part was read by Colonel Phillimore:

“Three Englishmen and two Norwegians were held up at the Swedish frontier.”

Can one, on the strength of this, say that they were presumably apprehended by the Police and not by the Wehrmacht?

WAGNER: Presumably, yes. Certainly not by the Navy; but probably by the Police, who controlled the frontiers, so far as I know.

DR. SIEMERS: Do you not think, Admiral, that this is not only probable but certain if you think back to the affidavit of 14 November 1945 by Flesch, the commander of the Security Police, who brought Evans from the frontier to Oslo?

WAGNER: If you take the two together, then in my opinion it is certain; I do not think there is any doubt about it.

DR. SIEMERS: Will you then look at the following sentence?

Mr. President, that is under Figure 2, the last sentence of the first paragraph. I quote:

“It was possible to take only the civilian-clothed British sailor Robert Paul Evans”—born on such and such a date—“into arrest. The others escaped into Sweden.”

Therefore, I think we may assume with certainty that Evans was not recognizable as a soldier.

WAGNER: Yes, no doubt.

DR. SIEMERS: Then, will you look at the following sentence. There it says—I quote:

“Evans had a pistol holster used for carrying weapons under the arm-pit, and he had a knuckle duster.”

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, it says nothing about civilian clothes in the English copy. I do not want to make a bad point, but it is not in my copy.

THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid I do not have the document before me.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, the English copy that I have simply has, “However, only the British seaman, Robert Paul Evans, born 14 January 1922, at London, could be arrested. The others escaped into Sweden.”

My Lord, I think it can be checked afterwards.

THE PRESIDENT: Exact reference to the document?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, that was Document UK-57, and it is a report of the OKW, Office for Ausland Abwehr, of 4 January 1944.

THE PRESIDENT: Did Colonel Phillimore put it in this morning?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I put it in, My Lord, I think it was—certainly in cross-examining the Defendant Keitel. It has been in before, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: I see, it has already been put in with this lot.

DR. SIEMERS: I should be grateful to the Tribunal if the mistake were rectified in the English translation. In the German original text the photostat copy is included, therefore the wording “civilian-clothed” must be correct.

Witness, we were discussing the sentence—I quote:

“Evans had a pistol holster used for carrying weapons under the arm-pit, and he had a knuckle duster.”

How does this bear on the fact that he was wearing civilian clothes?

WAGNER: It shows that he...

DR. SIEMERS: Sir David would like me to read the next sentence too:

“Acts of force contrary to international law could not be proved against him. Evans made detailed statements regarding the action and, on 19 January 1943, in accordance with the Führer Order, he was shot.”

How does this bear on the fact that he was wearing civilian clothes? Does this show that he did not act as a soldier in enemy territory should act?

THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. The Tribunal considers that that is a question of law which the Tribunal has got to decide, and not a question for the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: Then I shall forego the answer.

May I ask you to turn to the next page of the document and to come back to the Bordeaux case, a similar case which has already been discussed. You have already explained the Bordeaux case insofar as you said that the Naval Operations Staff was not informed about it. I now draw your attention to the sentence at the bottom of Page 3:

“After carrying out the explosions, they sank the boats and tried, with the help of the French civilian population, to escape into Spain.”

Thus did the men concerned in this operation also not act like soldiers?

WAGNER: That, according to this document, is perfectly clear.

DR. SIEMERS: Thank you. And now one last question. At the end of his examination Colonel Phillimore asked you whether you considered Grossadmiral Raeder and Grossadmiral Dönitz guilty in the cases which have just been discussed, guilty of these murders as he termed them? Now that I have further clarified these cases I should like you to answer the question again.

WAGNER: I consider that both admirals are not guilty in these two cases.

DR. SIEMERS: I have no further questions.

DR. LATERNSER: Admiral, during cross-examination you explained your views on the Commando Order. I wanted to ask you: Were your views possibly based on the assumption that the order was examined by a superior authority as to its justification before international law?

WAGNER: Yes. I assumed that the justification for the order was examined by my superiors.

DR. LATERNSER: Furthermore, during cross-examination you stated your conception of what happened when a man was handed over to the SD. I wanted to ask you: Did you have this conception already at that time, or has it taken form now that a great deal of material has become known to you?

WAGNER: There is no question that this conception was considerably influenced by knowledge of a great deal of material.

DR. LATERNSER: You did not, therefore, at that time have the definite conception that the handing over of a man to the SD meant certain death?

WAGNER: No, I did not have that conception.

DR. LATERNSER: Now, a few questions regarding the equipment of the Commando units. Do you not know that automatic arms were found on some members of these units and that, in particular, pistols were carried in such a manner that if, in the event of capture, the man raised his arms, that movement would automatically cause a shot to be fired which would hit the person standing opposite the man with raised arms? Do you know anything about that?

WAGNER: I have heard of it.

DR. LATERNSER: Did you not see pictures of it?

WAGNER: At the moment I cannot remember seeing such pictures.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the Germans also undertake sabotage operations in enemy countries?

THE PRESIDENT: What has it got to do with that, Dr. Laternser?

DR. LATERNSER: I wanted to ascertain by means of this question whether the witness had knowledge of German sabotage operations, and furthermore, whether he had received reports about the treatment of such sabotage units.

THE PRESIDENT: That is the very thing which we have already ruled cannot be put.

You are not suggesting that these actions were taken by way of reprisal for the way in which German sabotage units were treated? We are not trying whether any other powers have committed breaches of international law, or crimes against humanity, or war crimes; we are trying whether these defendants have.

The Tribunal has ruled that such questions cannot be put.

DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I do not know what answer the witness is going to give. I merely wanted, in case, which I do not know...

THE PRESIDENT: We wanted to know why you were putting the question. You said you were putting the question in order to ascertain whether German sabotage units had been treated in a way which was contrary to international law, or words to that effect, and that is a matter which is irrelevant.

DR. LATERNSER: But, Mr. President, it would show at least that doubt existed about the interpretation of international law with regard to such operations and that would be of importance for the application of the law.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal rules that the question is inadmissible.

DR. LATERNSER: Witness, you also stated during your cross-examination that until 1944 you were chief of the Operational Department of the Naval Operations Staff. Can you give information on whether there were strong German naval forces or naval transport ships in the Black Sea?

WAGNER: The strength of naval forces and transport ships in the Black Sea was very slight.

DR. LATERNSER: For what were they mostly needed?

WAGNER: For our own replacements and their protection.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, how does this arise out of the cross-examination? You are re-examining now, and you are only entitled to ask questions which arise out of the cross-examination. There have been no questions put with reference to the Black Sea.

DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, I learned during the examination that for a long time the witness was chief of the Operational Department; and I concluded that he was one of the few witnesses who could give me information regarding the facts of a very serious accusation raised by the Russian Prosecution, namely, the accusation that 144,000 people had been loaded on to German ships, that at Sebastopol those ships had gone to sea and had then been blown up, and that the prisoners of war on the ships were drowned. The witness could clarify this matter to some extent.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, you knew, directly this witness began his evidence, what his position was; and you, therefore, could have cross-examined him yourself at the proper time. You are now re-examining; you are only entitled—because we cannot have the time of the Court wasted—you are only entitled to ask him questions which arise out of the cross-examination. In the opinion of the Tribunal this question does not arise out of the cross-examination.

DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, please, would you, as an exception, admit this question?

THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal has given you a great latitude and we cannot continue to do so.

The Tribunal will now adjourn.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

Afternoon Session

THE PRESIDENT: You have finished, have you not, Dr. Kranzbühler, with this witness?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

[The witness left the stand.]

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And now I should like to call my next witness, Admiral Godt.

[The witness Godt took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

EBERHARD GODT (Witness): My name is Eberhard Godt.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

You may sit down.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Godt, when did you enter the Navy as an officer cadet?

GODT: On 1 July, 1918.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How long have you been working with Admiral Dönitz, and in what position?

GODT: Since January 1938; first of all as First Naval Staff Officer attached to the Commander, U-boats, and immediately after the beginning of the war as Chief of the Operations Department.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Chief of the Operations Department with the Chief of Submarines?

GODT: Yes, attached to the Chief of Submarines, later Flag Officer, U-boats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you collaborate since 1938 in the drafting of all operational orders worked out by the staff of the Flag Officer, U-boats?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How many officers were on this staff at the beginning of the war?

GODT: At the beginning of the war there were four officers, one chief engineer, and two administrative officers on that staff.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I shall now show you Document GB-83 of the Prosecution’s document book Page 16, which is a letter from Commander U-boats, dated 9 October 1939. It refers to bases in Norway. How did this letter originate?

GODT: At that time I was visiting the Naval Operations Staff in Berlin on other business. On the occasion of that visit I was asked whether Commander, U-boats, was interested in bases in Norway and what demands should be made in that connection.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were you informed how those bases in Norway were to be secured for the use of the German Navy?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution has quoted an extract from the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff dating from the same period.

Mr. President, I am thinking of the extract reproduced on Page 15 of the document book.

[Turning to the witness.] That extract contains four questions. Questions (a) and (d) deal with technical details regarding bases in Norway, whereas (b) and (c) deal with the possibility of obtaining such bases against the will of the Norwegians, and the question of defending them.

Which of these questions was put to you?

GODT: May I ask you to repeat the questions in detail first of all.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The first question is: Which places in Norway can be considered for bases?

GODT: That question was put.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you show me from the letter from Commander, U-boats, whether the question was answered and where it is answered?

GODT: The question was answered under Number 1 (c) at the end of Number 1.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: There it says, “Trondheim or Narvik are possible places.”

GODT: Yes, that is right.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Question Number 2 is: “If it is impossible to obtain bases without fighting, can it be done against the will of the Norwegians by the use of military force?” Was that question put?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you tell me if the question was answered in the letter from Commander, U-boats?

GODT: This question was not answered.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The third question is: “What are the possibilities of defense after occupation?” Was that question put to you?

GODT: No, that question was not put.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Is it replied to in the letter?

GODT: III-d refers to the necessity of adopting defense measures.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Is that reference connected with the fourth question I put to you now: “Will the harbors have to be developed to the fullest extent as bases, or do they already offer decisive advantages as possible supply points?”

GODT: These two questions are not connected.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was that fourth question put to you?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it answered?

GODT: Not in this letter.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What is the significance of the figures II and III? Do they not answer the question of whether these ports must be developed as bases or whether they can be used just as supply points?

GODT: They indicate what was thought necessary in order to develop them to the fullest extent as bases.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please read the last sentence of the document? There it says, “Establishment of a fuel supply point in Narvik as an alternative supply point.” Is that not a reply to the question asking whether a supply point is enough?

GODT: Yes; I had overlooked that sentence.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can I sum up, therefore, by saying that the first and fourth questions were put to you and answered by you, whereas questions 2 and 3 were not put to you and not answered by you?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In the War Diary of the Naval Operations Staff there is a note which says, “Commander, U-boats, considers such ports extremely valuable even as temporary supply and equipment bases for Atlantic U-boats.” Does that note mean that Admiral Dönitz was working on this question before your visit to Berlin? Or what was the reason for the note?

GODT: That was my own opinion, which I was entitled to give in my capacity as Chief of the Operations Department.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was that the first time that plans for bases were brought to your notice?

GODT: No. We had been considering the question of whether the supply position for U-boats could be improved by using ships—in Iceland, for instance.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were these considerations in any way connected with the question whether one ought to start a war against the country concerned?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I shall now show you Document GB-91. This appears on Page 18 of the Prosecution’s document book. It is an operational order issued by Commander, U-boats, on 30 March 1940 and dealing with the Norwegian enterprise. Is it true, that this is your operational order?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How many days before the beginning of the Norwegian action was that order released?

GODT: Approximately ten days.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Paragraph II, Section 5, contains the following sentence: “While entering the harbor and until the troops have been landed, the naval forces will probably fly the British naval ensign, except in Narvik.” Is that an order given by Commander, U-boats, to the submarines under his command?

GODT: No. That passage appears under the heading: “Information on our own combat forces.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what is the meaning of this allusion?

GODT: It means that U-boats were informed that in certain circumstances our own naval units might fly other flags.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Why was that necessary?

GODT: It was necessary so as to prevent possible mistakes in identity.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Are there any other references to mistakes in identity in this order?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Where?

GODT: In Paragraph IV, Section 5.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please read it?

GODT: There it says, “Beware of confusing our own units with enemy forces.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Only that sentence. Did this order instruct U-boats to attack Norwegian forces?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please indicate what the order says about that?

GODT: IV, a2 states, “Only enemy naval forces and troop transports are to be attacked.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was meant by “enemy” forces?

GODT: “Enemy” forces were British, French, and Russian—no, not Russian. It goes on: “No action is to be taken against Norwegian and Danish forces unless they attack our own forces.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please look at Paragraph VI-c?

GODT: Paragraph VI says: “Steamers may only be attacked when they have been identified beyond doubt as enemy steamers and as troop transports.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was Commander, U-boats, informed of the political action taken with regard to incidents caused by submarines?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In what way?

GODT: U-boats had orders to report immediately by wireless in the case of incidents, and to supplement the report later.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I do not think you quite understood my question. I asked you, was Commander, U-boats, informed as to how an incident caused by a submarine would later on be settled with a neutral government?

GODT: No, not as a rule.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you remember any individual case where he was informed?

GODT: I remember the case of the Spanish steamer Monte Corbea. Later on I learned that Spain had been promised reparations. I cannot remember now whether I received the information through official channels or whether I just heard it accidentally.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I should now like to establish the dates of certain orders which I have already presented to the Tribunal. I shall show you Standing Order Number 171, which is on Page 159 of Volume III of the document book. What is the date on which that order was issued?

GODT: I shall have to look at it first.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Please do.

GODT: That order must have originated in the winter of 1939-1940. Probably 1939.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: On what do you base that conclusion?

GODT: I base it on the reference made in 4a to equipment for depth charges. This was taken for granted at a later stage. I also gather it from the reference made in 5b to the shifting of masts and colored lights, something which was formulated then for the first time.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you tell us the exact month in 1939?

GODT: I assume that it was November.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am now going to show you another order, Standing War Order Number 122. It appears on Page 226 in Volume IV of my document book. Up to now all we know is that this order was issued before May 1940. Can you give us a more exact date?

GODT: This order must have been issued about the same time as the first, that is to say, about November 1939.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Thank you. How was the conduct of U-boat warfare by Commander, U-boats, organized in practice? Will you explain that to us?

GODT: All orders based on questions of international law, et cetera, originated with the Naval Operations Staff. The Naval Operations Staff also reserved for itself the right to determine the locality of the center of operations—for instance, the distribution of U-boats in the Atlantic Theater, the Mediterranean Theater, and the North Sea Theater. Within these various: areas U-boat operations were, generally speaking, entirely at the discretion of Commander, U-boats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were the standing orders for U-boats given verbally or in writing?

GODT: In writing.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were there not verbal orders as well?

GODT: Verbal instructions personally issued by Commander, U-boats, played a special part and amounted to personal influence on commanders, as well as to explanations of the contents of written orders.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: On what occasions was that personal influence exerted?

GODT: Particularly when reports were being made by the commanders after each action. There must have been very few commanders who did not make a personal and detailed report to Commander, U-boats, after an action.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it possible for written orders to be changed in the course of verbal transmission, or even twisted to mean the opposite?

GODT: Such a possibility might have existed, but it never actually happened.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When they made these verbal reports, could the commanders risk expressing opinions which were not those of Commander, U-boats?

GODT: Absolutely. Commander, U-boats, even asked his commanders in so many words to give him their personal opinions in every case, so that he could maintain direct personal contact with them and thus remain in close touch with events on the front, so that he could put matters right, where necessary.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was this personal contact used for the verbal transmission of shady orders?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution holds that an order—apparently a verbal order—existed, prohibiting the entry in the log of measures considered dubious or unjustifiable from the point of view of international law. Did such a general order exist?

GODT: No; there was no general order. In certain individual cases—I can remember two—an order was given to omit certain matters from the log.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Which cases do you remember?

GODT: The first was the case of the Athenia; and the second was the sinking of a German boat, which was coming from Japan through the blockade, by a German submarine.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Before I ask you to give me details of that, I should like to know the reason for omitting such matters from the log.

GODT: It was done for reasons of secrecy. U-boat logs were seen by a great many people: First, in the training stations of the U-boat service itself; and, secondly, in numerous offices of the High Command. Special attention had therefore to be paid to secrecy.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How many copies of each U-boat war log were made?

GODT: I should say six to eight copies.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the omission of such an item from the log mean that all documentary evidence was destroyed in every office; or did certain offices keep these documents?

GODT: These records were received by Commander, U-boats, and probably by the Naval Operations Staff as well.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was there a standing war order prescribing treatment of incidents?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What were the contents?

GODT: It stated that incidents must be reported immediately by wireless and that a supplementary report must be made later, either in writing or by word of mouth.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Does this standing order contain any allusion to the omission of such incidents from the log?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please tell me now how this alteration was made in the log in the case of the Athenia?

GODT: In the case of the Athenia Oberleutnant Lemp reported on returning that he had torpedoed this ship, assuming it to be an auxiliary cruiser. I cannot now tell you exactly whether this was the first time I realized that such a possibility existed or whether the idea that this might possibly have been torpedoed by a German submarine had already been taken into consideration. Lemp was sent to Berlin to make a report and absolute secrecy was ordered with regard to the case.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: By whom?

GODT: By the Naval Operations Staff, after a temporary order had been issued in our department. I ordered the fact to be erased from the war log of the U-boat.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And that, of course, was on the orders of Admiral Dönitz?

GODT: Yes, or I ordered it on his instructions.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you participate in the further handling of this incident?

GODT: Only with regard to the question of whether Lemp should be punished. As far as I remember, Commander, U-boats, took only disciplinary action against him because it was in his favor that the incident occurred during the first few hours of the war, and it was held that in his excitement he had not investigated the character of the ship as carefully as he might have done.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did I understand you correctly as saying that the detailed documentary evidence in connection with the sinking of the Athenia was retained by both Commander, U-boats, and, you believe, the Naval Operations Staff?

GODT: I can say that with certainty only as far as Commander, U-boats, is concerned. That is what happened in this case.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You mentioned a second case just now where a log book had been altered. Which case was that?

GODT: That incident was as follows: A German blockade breaker, that is to say, a merchant vessel on its way back from Japan, was accidentally torpedoed by a German submarine and sunk in the North Atlantic. This fact was omitted from the log.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: So it was only a question of keeping matters secret from German offices?

GODT: Yes. The British learned the facts from lifeboats as far as I know; and these facts were to be concealed from the crews of other blockade-breaking vessels.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Documents submitted to the Tribunal by the Defense show that until the autumn of 1942, German U-boats took steps to rescue crews as far as was possible without prejudicing the U-boat’s safety and without interfering with their own assignment. Does this agree with your own experiences?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I should now like to put a few questions to you regarding the so-called Laconia order which still require clarification. I refer to Document GB-199. As you know, the Prosecution calls this order an order to kill survivors. Who formulated this order?

THE PRESIDENT: Where is it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: It is the document book of the Prosecution on Page 36, Mr. President.

GODT: I cannot now tell you that for certain. Generally speaking, such an order was discussed by Commander, U-boats, the First Naval Staff Officer, and myself; Commander, U-boats, decided on the general terms of the order and then it was formulated by one of us. It is quite possible that I myself worded the order.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: But, at any rate, Admiral Dönitz signed it, did he not?

GODT: He must have; yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Dönitz thought that he remembered that you and Captain Hessler were opposed to this order. Can you remember this, too; and if so, why were you against it?

GODT: I do not remember that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was the meaning of the order?

GODT: The meaning of the order is plain. It prohibited attempts at rescue.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Why was that not forbidden by a reference to Standing War Order Number 154, which was issued in the winter of 1939-40?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, surely a written order must speak for itself. Unless there is some colloquial meaning in a particular word used in the order, the order must be interpreted according to the ordinary meaning of the words.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I was not proposing to go into the question any further, Mr. President.

[Turning to the witness.] I should like to repeat my last question. Why, instead of issuing a new order, did they not simply refer commanders to Standing War Order Number 154, which was issued in the winter of 1939-40?

I refer, Mr. President, to Document GB-196, on Page 33 of the Prosecution’s document book.

You remember that order, don’t you. I have shown it to you.

GODT: Yes, I do. That order had already been canceled when the so-called Laconia order was issued. Apart from that, a mere reference to an order already issued would have lacked the character of actuality which orders should have.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you mean by that that your staff, as a matter of principle, did not issue orders by references to earlier orders?

GODT: That was avoided, whenever possible; that is to say, almost always.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you explain to me why that order was issued as “top secret”?

GODT: The order appeared after an operation in which we nearly lost two boats, and contained a severe reprimand for the commanders concerned. It was not customary for us to put such a reprimand in a form accessible to any one except the commanders and all the officers.

THE PRESIDENT: Which is the severe reprimand?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please explain of what this severe reprimand for the commander consisted?

GODT: It is understandable in the light of previous events—namely, those very things which it forbids. It is largely contained in the sentence beginning: “Rescue is against the most elementary demands” and it is also implied by the harshness, whereby the commander is reproached with being softhearted.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Does this mean that the commanders were accused of having endangered their boats too much in connection with the rescue action of the Laconia and of acting in a manner which was not in accordance with the dictates of war?

GODT: Yes, and that after having been repeatedly reminded during the action of the necessity for acting in a manner in accordance with the dictates of war.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were interrogated on this order after the capitulation, as you told me; but you could not at the moment remember its exact wording. How was it possible for you not to remember this order?

GODT: There were certain orders which had to be kept in collective files and which one therefore saw very frequently. This order was not one of them, but was filed separately after being dealt with. After it had been issued I never saw it again until the end of the war.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What did an order intended for inclusion in such a collection look like on the outside?

GODT: It had to be a “Current Order” or an “Admonition Message.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did that occur in the text of the order concerned?

GODT: It would be in the heading of the order concerned. That is not the case here.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: So we may conclude from the fact that this wireless message is not headed either “Admonition Message” or “Current Order” that it did not belong to a collection of orders?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: But then, how is it possible that Korvettenkapitän Möhle gave lectures on this order apparently until the end of the war?

GODT: Korvettenkapitän Möhle had access to all wireless messages issued by Commander, U-boats. He was entitled to select from these signals anything he thought necessary for the instruction of commanders about to go to sea. It made no difference whether the order was marked “Admonition” or “Current Order.” He had obviously taken out this message and had had it among the material to be used for these instructions to the commanders.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Möhle ever ask you about the interpretation of that order?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you ever hear of any other source interpreting this order to mean that survivors were to be shot?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you judge from your own experience whether this order had, or could have had, any effect practically on Allied naval losses?

GODT: That is very difficult to judge. At that time something like 80 percent of all U-boat attacks were probably carried out under conditions which made any attempt at rescue impossible. That is to say, these attacks were made on convoys or on vessels in close proximity to the coast.

The fact that some 12 captains and engineers were brought back as prisoners by U-boats is an indication of what happened in the other cases. It is difficult to say with any degree of certainty whether it was possible to take rescue measures in all cases. The situation was probably such that the Allied sailors felt safer in the lifeboats than they did, for instance, aboard the U-boat and probably were glad to see the U-boat vanish after the attack. The fact that the presence of the U-boat involved danger to itself is proved by this same case of the Laconia, where two U-boats were attacked from the air while engaged in rescuing the survivors.

I do not think it is at all certain that this order had any effect one way or the other.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What do you mean “one way or the other”?

GODT: I mean whether it meant an increase or a decrease in the number of losses among enemy seamen.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: There is one argument I did not quite understand. You pointed to the fact that approximately 12 captains and chief engineers were made prisoner after this order was issued. Do you mean by that that only in these few cases was it possible, without endangering the submarine, to carry out the order to transfer such officers from the lifeboats?

GODT: It is too much to say that it was only possible in these few cases, but it does afford some indication of the number of cases in which it was possible.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I shall now show you the wireless message which went to Kapitänleutnant Schacht. It is on Page 36 of the Prosecution’s document book. This message, too, was sent as “top secret.” What was the reason for that?

GODT: It is a definite and severe reprimand for the commander.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How far was that reprimand justified? Schacht had not received previous instruction to rescue Italians only?

GODT: No, but it had been assumed that U-boats would realize that it was of primary importance that allies should be rescued, that is, that they should not become prisoners of war. Apart from that, several reminders had been issued in the course of operations warning commanders to be particularly careful. After that came Schacht’s report, which appeared at the time to indicate that he had disobeyed orders. Viewed retrospectively, Schacht’s action must have taken place before Commander, U-boats, issued the order in question, so that in part at least, the accusation was unjustified.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were any further rescue measures carried out by U-boats after this order was issued in September 1942?

GODT: In isolated cases, yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Commander, U-boats, object to these rescues?

GODT: I have no recollection of that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: To your knowledge, did German U-boats deliberately kill survivors?

GODT: The only case I know of—and I heard of it after the capitulation—is that of Kapitänleutnant Eck. We heard an enemy broadcast which hinted at these happenings, but we were unable to draw any conclusions from that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I now hand to you the Prosecution’s Exhibit GB-203, which is regarded by the Prosecution as proof of the shooting of survivors. This is the war log of U-247 from which I mimeographed an extract on Page 74 of Volume II of my document book. This extract describes an attack made by the U-boat on a British trawler. You have already seen this war log. After his return, did the commander make a report on this action?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he report anything about the shooting of survivors on that occasion?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: According to a statement made by a survivor named McAllister this trawler, the Noreen Mary, had a gun aboard. Do you know whether trawlers had guns mounted fore or aft?

GODT: They were almost always in the bows.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you remember, with the help of this extract from the war log and on the strength of your own recollection of the commander’s report, the exact details of this incident?

GODT: Originally the U-boat when submerged encountered a number of vessels escorting trawlers close to Cape Wrath. It tried to torpedo one of the trawlers.

THE PRESIDENT: Is the witness trying to reconstruct this from the document, reconstruct the incident?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am asking him to tell us what he remembers of the event, basing his account on his own recollection of the commander’s report supplemented by the entry in the war log.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, he hasn’t said whether he ever saw the commander.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Oh yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then, all he can tell us is what the commander told him.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, have him do that then.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you please tell us what you remember after reading the log.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. If he remembers anything about what the commander told him he can tell us that, but the log speaks for itself and he can’t reconstruct it out of that. He must tell us what he remembers of what the officer said.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Very well, Sir.

[Turning to the witness.] Will you please speak from memory.

GODT: The commander reported that he had encountered a number of trawlers extraordinarily close to the coast, considering conditions at the time. Failing in his attempt to torpedo one of them, he sank it with gunfire. That was all the more remarkable because, in the first place, the incident occurred quite unusually near the coast and, in the second place, the commander risked this artillery fight regardless of the presence of other vessels nearby.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were these other ships also armed trawlers?

GODT: It was to be assumed at the time that every trawler was armed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The witness McAllister thought that the submarine surfaced 50 yards away from the trawler. In the light of your own recollections and experiences, do you think this is possible?

GODT: I do not remember the details; but it would be an unusual thing for a U-boat commander to do.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: McAllister also stated the U-boat used shells filled with wire.

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Dr. Kranzbühler, the Tribunal thinks that the witness oughtn’t to express opinions of this sort. He ought to give us the evidence of any facts which he has. He is telling us in his opinion it is impossible that a naval commander would ever bring his submarine up within 50 yards of another vessel.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: That is not a matter for him to say.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I was going to ask the witness next whether German U-boats used shells filled with wire as stated by the witness McAllister. Is that question admissible?

THE PRESIDENT: Shells filled with wire?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, that is the question I want to put.

Will you answer that question, Witness.

GODT: There were no such shells.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was this attack by the submarine on the Noreen Mary reported by wireless immediately? Do you know anything about it?

GODT: Do you mean the U-boat commander’s report?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: No, by the British.

GODT: As far as I remember, a wireless message sent by a British vessel was intercepted, reporting a U-boat attack in the area.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: A signal is entered in the war log under 0127 hours. It is intended for Matschulat, which means that it was sent by you to the commander, and it reads, “English steamer reports attack by German U-boat west of Cape Wrath.”

GODT: That is the message intended to inform the U-boat that a wireless signal sent by a British steamer concerning a submarine attack in that area had been intercepted.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I should now like to ask you something about Standing War Order Number 511. This is in Volume I of my document book, Page 46. When I presented this order, the Tribunal was not sure of the significance of Paragraph 2, which I am going to read:

“Captains and officers of neutral ships which may be sunk according to Standing Order Number 101, (such as Swedish except Göteborg traffic), must not be taken on board, since internment of these officers is not permitted by international law.”

Can you tell me first the experiences or calculations which led to the inclusion of Paragraph 2 in the order?

GODT: On one occasion a U-boat brought a Uruguayan officer—a captain whose ship had been sunk—to Germany. We were afraid that if we released this captain he might report some of the things he had seen while he was interned aboard the U-boat. The reason for this order was to avoid difficulties of that kind in the future; for the Uruguayan captain had to be released and was, in fact, released.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What is the meaning of the reference to neutral ships which might be sunk according to Standing War Order Number 101?

GODT: May I please see the order for a minute?

[The document was submitted to the witness.]

The Standing War Order Number 101 contains the following directives in connection with the sinking of neutral ships: Once inside the blockade zone, all neutral ships can be sunk as a matter of principle, with two main exceptions, or shall we say, two general exceptions.

To begin with, ships belonging to certain neutral countries, with whom agreements had been made regarding definite shipping channels, must not be sunk; further, ships belonging to certain neutral states which might be assumed not to be working exclusively in the enemy’s service. Outside the blockade zone neutral ships might be sunk; first, if they were not recognizable as neutrals and therefore must be regarded as enemy vessels by the submarine in question and, second, if they were not acting as neutrals.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: As, for instance, those traveling in enemy convoy?

GODT: Yes, those traveling in convoys, or if they reported the presence of U-boats, et cetera, by wireless.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Paragraph 2 mean that the captains of neutral ships would in the future be in a worse position than captains of enemy ships, or would they be in a better position?

GODT: This is not a question of better or worse, it is a question of taking prisoners. They were not to be taken prisoners because they could not be detained as such. Whether this meant that their positions would be better or worse is at least open to doubt. Captains of enemy ships usually tried to avoid being taken aboard the U-boat probably because they felt safer in their lifeboats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What do you know about orders to respect hospital ships at the beginning of the invasion?

GODT: At the beginning of the invasion the rule in this area, as in any other area, was that hospital ships were not to be attacked. Commanders operating in the invasion zone then reported that there was a very large number of hospital ships sailing.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: From where to where?

GODT: Between the Normandy invasion area and the British Isles. Commander, U-boats, then had investigations made by the competent department as to whether hospital traffic was really as heavy as alleged in these reports. That was found to be the case.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What do you mean by that?

GODT: It means that the number of hospital ships reported corresponded to the estimated number of wounded. After that it was expressly announced that hospital ships were not to be attacked in the future.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was the strict respect paid to hospital ships at that stage of the war in our own interests?

GODT: At that time we only had hospital ships in the Baltic where the Geneva Convention was not recognized by the other side; so we had no particular interest in respecting hospital ships.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you know of any case of an enemy hospital ship being sunk by a German U-boat during this war?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did it happen the other way round?

GODT: The German hospital ship Tübingen was, I think, sunk by British aircraft in the Mediterranean.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Presumably because of mistaken identity?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, the question on German hospital ships which were sunk isn’t relevant, is it?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I was going to show by it, Mr. President, that the possibility of mistaken identity does exist and that a hospital ship was in fact sunk in consequence of such a mistake. My evidence therefore goes to show that from the sinking of a ship it must not be concluded that the sinking was ordered.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal quite realize that mistakes may be made in sea warfare. It is a matter of common knowledge. Should we adjourn now?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Yes, Mr. President.

[A recess was taken.]

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral Godt, you have known Admiral Dönitz very well since 1934; and you have had a good deal to do with him during that time. Did he have anything to do with politics during that time?

GODT: Nothing at all, to my knowledge, before he was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. As Commander-in-Chief of the Navy he made occasional speeches outside the Navy; for instance, he addressed dock workers, made a speech to the Hitler Youth at Stettin, and gave a talk over the air on “Heroes’ Day” and on 20 July; I remember no other occasions.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were these speeches not always directly connected with the tasks of the Navy—for instance, the address to the dock laborers—shipbuilding?

GODT: Yes, when he spoke to the dock laborers.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And to the Hitler Youth?

GODT: The Hitler Youth, too.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what was the connection there?

GODT: As far as I remember, the speech was concerned with recruiting for the Navy.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he select his staff officers for their ideological or military qualifications?

GODT: Their military and personal qualities were all that mattered. Their political views had nothing to do with it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The question of whether Admiral Dönitz knew, or must have known, of certain happenings outside the Navy is a very important one from the Tribunal’s point of view. Can you tell me who his associates were?

GODT: His own officers and officers of his own age, almost exclusively. As far as I know, he had very few contacts beyond those.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did matters change much in this respect after he was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Navy?

GODT: No. He probably had a few more contacts with people from other branches, but on the whole his circle remained the same.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Where did he actually live at that time, that is, after his appointment as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy?

GODT: After his appointment as Commander-in-Chief, he was mainly at the headquarters of the Naval Operations Staff near Berlin.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he live with his family or with his staff?

GODT: He made his home with his family; but the main part of his life was spent with his staff.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And where did he live when his staff was transferred to the so-called “Koralle” quarters in the neighborhood of Berlin in the autumn of 1943?

GODT: He lived at his headquarters, where his family also lived—at least for some time. His official discussions, however, usually lasted till late in the evening.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In other words, from that time on he lived constantly in the naval officers’ quarters?

GODT: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were in a better position than almost any of the other officers to observe the Admiral’s career at close quarters. Can you tell me what you think were the motives behind the military orders he issued?

THE PRESIDENT: You can’t speak about the motives of people. You can’t give evidence about other people’s minds. You can only give evidence of what they said and what they did.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I still think that an officer who lived with another officer for years must have a certain knowledge of his motives, based on the actions of the officer in question and on what that officer told him. However, perhaps I may put my question rather differently.

THE PRESIDENT: He can give evidence about his character, but he can’t give evidence about his motives.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then I shall question him on his character, Your Honor.

Witness, can you tell me whether Admiral Dönitz ever expressed selfish motives to you in connection with any other orders he gave or any of his actions?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, that is the same thing, the same question again, really.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. I meant it to be a different question.

THE PRESIDENT: Nobody is charging him with being egotistical or anything of that sort. He is charged with the various crimes that are charged against him in the Indictment.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then I shall ask a direct question based on the Prosecution’s opinion.

The Prosecution judged Admiral Dönitz to be cynical and opportunistic. Does that agree with your own judgment?

GODT: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How would you judge him?

GODT: As a man whose mind was fixed entirely on duty, on his work, his naval problems, and the men in his service.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any other members of the defendants’ counsel want to ask any questions?

[There was no response.]

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, might I first mention the documents that I put in in cross-examination this morning, or rather it was a document which had been in before. It was D-658, GB-229. That is the document dealing with Bordeaux, and there was a dispute as to whether it was from the Bordeaux Commando Raid. The dispute was as to whether it was from the SKL, that is the Naval War Staff Diary, or from the war diary of some lower formation. My Lord, I have had the matter confirmed with the Admiralty, and I will produce the original for defense counsel; it comes from the SKL War Diary, Tagebuch der Seekriegsleitung, and it is from Number 1 Abteilung, Teil A—that is part A—for December 1942. So it is from the War Diary of the Defendant Raeder and the witness.

You have said, Witness, that you don’t recollect protesting against this order of 17 September 1942.

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will try and refresh your memory. Would you look at a document, D-865?

That’s GB-458, My Lord; that is an extract from an interrogation of Admiral Dönitz on 6 October. I should say that the record was kept in English and therefore the translation into German does not represent necessarily the Admiral’s actual words.

[Turning to the witness.] Would you look at the second page of that document at the end of the first paragraph. It is the end of the first paragraph on Page 207 in the English text. The Admiral is dealing with the order of 17 September 1942, and in that last sentence in that paragraph he says:

“I remember that Captain Godt and Captain Hessler were opposed to this telegram. They said so expressly because, as they said, ‘it might be misunderstood.’ But I said, ‘I must pass it on now to these boats to prevent this 1 percent of losses. I must give them a reason, so that they do not feel themselves obliged to do that.’”

Do you remember protesting now, saying “That can be misunderstood”?

GODT: No, I do not recall that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And a further extract on Page 3 of the English translation, the bottom of Page 2 of the German:

“So I sent a second telegram to prevent further losses. The second telegram was sent at my suggestion. I am completely and personally responsible for it, because both Captain Godt and Captain Hessler expressly stated they thought the telegram ambiguous or liable to misinterpretation.”

Do you remember that now?

GODT: No, I do not recall that.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Would you look at a further statement to the same effect, on Page 5 of the English, first paragraph; Page 4 of the German text, third paragraph. He has been asked the question:

“Why was it necessary to use a phrase like the one that I read to you before: Efforts to rescue members of the crew were counter to the most elementary demands of warfare for the destruction of enemy ships and crews?”

It is the last clause of the first sentence, and he answered:

“These words do not correspond to the telegram. They do not in any way correspond to our actions in the years of 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942, as I have plainly shown you through the Laconia incident. I would like to emphasize once more that both Captain Godt and Captain Hessler were violently opposed to the dispatch of this telegram.”

Do you still say that you don’t remember protesting against the sending of that telegram?

GODT: I have stated repeatedly that I do not remember it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will show you one more extract, Document D-866, which will become GB-459. That is a further interrogation on 22 October. The first question on the document is:

“Do you believe that this order is contrary to the Prize Regulations issued by the German Navy at the beginning of the war?”

And the last sentence of the first paragraph of the answer is:

“Godt and Hessler said to me, ‘Don’t send this message. You see, it might look odd some day. It might be misinterpreted.’”

You don’t remember using those words?

GODT: No.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were an experienced staff officer, were you not?

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You knew the importance of drafting an operational order with absolute clarity, did you not?

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: These orders you were issuing were going to young commanders between 20 and 30 years of age, were they not?

GODT: Certainly not as young as 20. They would be in their late twenties, most probably.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Do you say that this order is not ambiguous?

GODT: Yes. Perhaps if you take one sentence out of the context you might have some doubt, but not if you read the entire order.

COL. PHILLIMORE: What was the point of the words: “Rescue runs counter to the most elementary demands of warfare for the destruction of enemy ships and crews”?

[There was no response.] Show it to him, will you?

[The document was submitted to the witness.]

What was the point of those words, if this was merely a nonrescue order?

GODT: It was served to motivate the remainder of the order and to put on an equal level all the ships and crews which were fighting against our U-boats.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You see, all your orders were so clear, were they not? Have you got the Defense documents there in the witness box?

GODT: I think so—no.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Look at the Defense Document Number Dönitz-8, Page 10. It is on Page 10 of that book. Let me just read you the second paragraph:

“U-boats may instantly attack, with all the weapons at their command, enemy merchant vessels recognized with certainty as armed, or announced as such, on the basis of unimpeachable evidence in the possession of the Naval Operations Staff.”

The next sentence:

“As far as circumstances permit, measures shall be taken for the rescue of the crew, after the possibility of endangering the U-boat is excluded.”

Now, no commander could go wrong with that order, could he? It is perfectly clear.

Look at another one, D-642, at Page 13. It is the last paragraph of the order, on Page 15. Now, this is a nonrescue order. Have you got it? Paragraph E, Standing Order 154:

“Do not rescue crew members or take them aboard and do not take care of the ship’s boats. Weather conditions and distance from land are of no consequence. Think only of the safety of your own boat and try to achieve additional success as soon as possible.

“We must be harsh in this war. The enemy started it in order to destroy us; and we have to act accordingly.”

Now, that was perfectly clear, was it not? That was a “nonrescue” order?

GODT: It was just as clear as the order we are talking about.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Look at one or two more and then let me come back to that order; Page 45, another order:

“Order from Flag Officer, U-boats”—reading the third line—“to take on board as prisoners captains of sunk ships with their papers, if it is possible to do so without endangering the boat or impairing its fighting capacity.”

It is perfectly clear to anybody exactly what was intended, is it not?

GODT: That is not an order at all; it only reproduces an extract from the War Diary.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, reciting the words of the order; and then, on the next page in Paragraph 4:

“Try under all circumstances to take prisoners if that can be done without endangering the boat”—Again, perfectly clear.

Look at the next page, Page 47, Paragraph 1 of your order of the 1 June 1944, the last sentence:

“Therefore every effort must be made to bring in such prisoners, as far as possible, without endangering the boat.”

Now, you have told us that this order of 17 September 1942 was intended to be a nonrescue order; that is right, is it not?

GODT: Yes, certainly.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I ask you again, what was meant by the sentence: “Rescue runs counter to the most elementary demands of warfare for the destruction of enemy ships and crews”?

GODT: That is the motivation of the rest of the order, which states that ships with crews armed and equipped to fight U-boats were to be put on the same level.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Why do you speak about the destruction of crews if you do not mean the destruction of crews?

GODT: The question is whether the ships and their crews were to be destroyed; and that is something entirely different from destroying the crews after they had left the ship.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that is something entirely different from merely not rescuing the crews; isn’t that a fact?

GODT: I do not quite understand that question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Destruction of crews is quite different from nonrescue of crews?

GODT: Destruction—as long as the ship and crew are together.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You are not answering the question, are you? But if you want it again: Destruction of crews is quite different from nonrescue of crews?

GODT: The destruction of the crew is different from the nonrescue of survivors, yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Were those words merely put in to give this order what you described as a “lively character,” which an order should have?

GODT: I cannot give you the details; I have already said that I do not remember in detail the events leading up to this order.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Phillimore, the Tribunal has already said to the witness that the document speaks for itself.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes.

[Turning to the witness.] Would you just look at the next document in the Prosecution book, that is D-663, at the last sentence of that document? In view of the desired destruction of ships’ crews, are you saying that it was not your intention at this time to destroy the crews if you could?

GODT: I thought we were talking about survivors.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well, it is the same thing, to some extent, is it not; ships’ crews, once they are torpedoed, become survivors?

GODT: Then they would be survivors; yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Will you now answer the question? Was it not your intention at this time to destroy the crews, or survivors if you like, if you could?

GODT: If you mean survivors; the question can refer to two things. As regards survivors—no.

COL. PHILLIMORE: If you are not prepared to answer the question, I will pass on.

Do you remember the case of Kapitänleutnant Eck?

GODT: I only heard of the case of Kapitänleutnant Eck from American and British officers, and only after I came to Germany.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you know that he was on his first voyage when his U-boat sank the Peleus and then machine-gunned the survivors? Do you know that?

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: He had set out from the 5th U-boat flotilla at Kiel where Möhle was briefing the commanders, had he not?

GODT: He must have.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Now, if—instead of taking the whole blame upon himself for the action which he took—if he had defended his action under this order of 17 September 1942, are you saying that you could have court-martialed him for disobedience?

GODT: It might have been possible.

COL. PHILLIMORE: In view of the wording of your order, do you say that?

GODT: That would have been a question for the court-martial to decide. Moreover, Eck, as far as I heard, did not refer to this order.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Can you explain to the Tribunal how the witness Möhle was allowed to go on briefing that this was an annihilation order, from September 1942 to the end of the war?

GODT: I do not know how Möhle came to interpret this order in such a way. In any case he did not ask me about it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You realize that he is putting his own life in great jeopardy by admitting that he briefed as he did, don’t you.

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You also know, don’t you, that another commander he briefed was subsequently seen either by yourself or by Admiral Dönitz before he went out?

GODT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Again when he came back?

GODT: In general, yes, almost always.

COL. PHILLIMORE: In general. Are you seriously telling the Tribunal that none of these officers who were briefed that this was an annihilation order, that none of them raised the question either with you or with Admiral Dönitz?

GODT: In no circumstances was this order discussed.

COL. PHILLIMORE: But I suggest to you now that this order was very carefully drafted to be ambiguous; deliberately, so that any U-boat commander who was prepared to behave as he did was entitled to do so under the order. Isn’t that right?

GODT: That is an assertion.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that you and Hessler, you tried to stop this order being issued?

GODT: I have already said that I do not remember this.

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other cross-examination? Do you wish to re-examine, Dr. Kranzbühler?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you know that Korvettenkapitän Möhle has testified before this Tribunal that he told only a very few officers about his interpretation of the Laconia order?

GODT: I read that in the affidavit which Möhle made before British officers last year.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you know that Möhle testified here personally that he did not speak to Admiral Dönitz, yourself, or Captain Hessler about his interpretation of the Laconia order, although he repeatedly visited your staff?

GODT: I know that. I cannot tell you at the moment whether I know it from the affidavit which Möhle made last year or from another source.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You have been confronted with Admiral Dönitz’ testimony that you and Captain Hessler opposed the Laconia order. You stated that Admiral Dönitz gave an exaggerated account of your objection to this order, so as to take the whole responsibility upon himself?

THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. I do not think you can ask him that question, Dr. Kranzbühler, whether it is possible that the Admiral was over-emphasizing what he said.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then I will not put this question. Your Honor, I have no further question to put to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then with the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call Captain Hessler as my next witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

[The witness Hessler took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

GÜNTHER HESSLER (Witness): Günther Hessler.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and will add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Captain Hessler, when did you enter the Navy?

HESSLER: In April 1927.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What was your last grade?

HESSLER: Fregattenkapitän.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You are related to Admiral Dönitz. Is that correct?

HESSLER: Yes. I married his only daughter in November 1937.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When did you enter the U-boat service?

HESSLER: I started my U-boat training in April 1940.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were you given any information during your period of training on economic warfare according to the Prize Ordinance?

HESSLER: Yes. I was informed of it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was the so-called “prize disc” used which has just been submitted to you?

HESSLER: Yes, I was instructed about it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Will you tell the Tribunal briefly just what the purpose of this “prize disc” is?

HESSLER: It was a system of discs by means of which, through a simple mechanical process in a very short time one could ascertain how to deal with neutral and enemy merchant ships—whether, for instance, a neutral vessel carrying contraband could be sunk or captured, or whether it must be allowed to pass.

This disc has another great advantage in that it indicates at the same time the particular paragraph of the Prize Ordinance in which the case in question may be found. This made it possible to cut down the time required for the investigation of a merchant ship to a minimum.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That means that the disc was in the nature of a legal adviser to the commander?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I now submit this disc to the Tribunal as Exhibit Dönitz-95.

In your training were you told what attitude you were required to adopt toward shipwrecked survivors? If so, what was it?

HESSLER: Yes. The rescuing of survivors is a matter of course in naval warfare and must be carried out as far as military measures permit. In U-boat warfare it is utterly impossible to rescue survivors, that is, to take the entire crew on board, for space conditions in the U-boat do not permit of any such action. The carrying out of other measures, such as, approaching the lifeboats, picking up swimmers and transferring them to the lifeboats, handing over provisions and water, is, as a rule, impossible, for the danger incurred by the U-boat is so great throughout the operational zone that none of these measures can be carried out without endangering the boat too much.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You yourself went out on cruises as commander soon after receiving these instructions?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: From when to when?

HESSLER: From October 1940 till November 1941.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In what areas did you operate?

HESSLER: South of Iceland, west of the North Channel, in the waters between Cape Verde and the Azores, and in the area west of Freetown.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What success did you have against merchant shipping?

HESSLER: I sank 21 ships, totaling more than 130,000 tons.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You received the Knight’s Cross?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How did you act toward the survivors of the crews of the ships you sank?

HESSLER: In most cases the situation was such that I was compelled to leave the scene of the wreck without delay on account of danger from enemy naval or air forces. In two cases the danger was not quite so great. I was able to approach the lifeboats and help them.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What were the ships concerned?

HESSLER: Two Greek ships: the Papalemos and Pandias.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How did you help the lifeboats?

HESSLER: First of all I gave the survivors their exact position and told them what course to set in order to reach land in their lifeboats. In the second place, I gave them water, which is of vital importance for survivors in tropical regions. In one case I also furnished medical aid for several wounded men.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did your personal experience with torpedoed ships dispose you to caution with regard to rescue measures?

HESSLER: Yes. The experienced U-boat commander was justifiably suspicious of every merchantman and its crew, no matter how innocent they might appear. In two cases this attitude of suspicion saved me from destruction.

This happened in the case of the steamer Kalchas, a British 10,000 ton ship which I torpedoed north of Cape Verde. The ship had stopped after being hit by the torpedo. The crew had left the ship and were in the lifeboats, and the vessel seemed to be sinking. I was wondering whether to surface in order at least to give the crew their position and ask if they needed water. A feeling which I could not explain kept me from doing so. I raised my periscope to the fullest extent and just as the periscope rose almost entirely out of the water, sailors who had been hiding under the guns and behind the bulwark, jumped up, manned the guns of the vessel—which so far had appeared to be entirely abandoned—and opened fire on my periscope at very close range, compelling me to submerge at full speed. The shells fell close to the periscope but were not dangerous to me.

In the second case, the steamer Alfred Jones, which I torpedoed off Freetown, also seemed to be sinking. I wondered whether to surface, when I saw in one of the lifeboats two sailors of the British Navy in full uniform. That aroused my suspicions. I inspected the ship at close range—I would say from a distance of 50 to 100 meters—and established the fact that it had not been abandoned, but that soldiers were still concealed aboard her in every possible hiding-place and behind boarding. When I torpedoed the ship this boarding was smashed. I saw that the ship had at least four to six guns of 10 and 15 centimeter caliber and a large number of depth charge chutes and antiaircraft guns behind the bulwarks. Only a pure accident, the fact that the depth charges had not been timed, saved me from destruction.

It was clear to me, naturally, after such an experience, that I could no longer concern myself with crews or survivors without endangering my own ship.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When did you enter the staff of the Commander, U-boats.

HESSLER: In November 1941.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You were First Naval Staff Officer?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it your task to instruct the commanders on orders issued before they left port?

HESSLER: Yes, I did that.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what was the connection between the instructions given by you and those to be given by the flotilla chiefs—Korvettenkapitän Möhle, for instance?

HESSLER: The commanders whom I had to instruct received a complete summary of all questions concerning procedure at sea. The flotilla chiefs were charged with ascertaining that all commanders should receive a copy of the most recent orders issued by Commander, U-boats. I might say that these were limited instructions, compared with the full instructions they received from me.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did these full instructions include the instructions to the commanders regarding the treatment of survivors?

HESSLER: Yes, in much the same style as the instructions I received during my training in the U-boat school.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was any change made in the manner of instruction after the Laconia order of September 1942?

HESSLER: Yes. I related the incident briefly to the commanders and told them:

“Now the decision as to whether the situation at sea permits of rescue attempts no longer rests with you. Rescue measures are prohibited from now on.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you mean to say that during the whole of the rest of the war—that is, for 2½ years—the commanders continued to be told about the Laconia incident, or was that only done immediately after this incident in the autumn of 1942?

HESSLER: I would say up to January 1943 at the latest. After that, no further mention was made of it.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You mean, no further mention of the incident?

HESSLER: No further mention of the Laconia incident.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: But the orders issued as a result of it were mentioned?

HESSLER: Yes, that a specific order not to take any more rescue measures had been issued.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did the commanders at any time receive orders or suggestions from you or from one of your staff to shoot at survivors?

HESSLER: Never.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were the commanders told by you about the order to take captains and chief engineers on board, if possible?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was it emphasized in those instructions that this was only to take place when it could be done without endangering the U-boat?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Do you know of the incident of U-boat U-386 which passed some airmen shot down in the Bay of Biscay?

HESSLER: I remember this incident very distinctly.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then you also remember that this incident took place in the autumn of 1943?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did Commander, U-boats, think, with regard to this incident, that the U-boat commander should have shot at the airmen in the rubber dinghy?

HESSLER: No, on the contrary, he was annoyed because the crew of the aircraft had not been brought along by the U-boat.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did any other person or persons on the staff put forward the view I have just expressed?

HESSLER: No, we knew every one on the staff, and it is out of the question that any member of the staff held a different opinion.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Korvettenkapitän Möhle testified that he asked Korvettenkapitän Kuppisch, who was a member of your staff, for an explanation of the Laconia order and that Kuppisch told him about the incident of the U-386; and told it in such a way as to make it appear that Commander, U-boats, ordered the shooting of survivors.

HESSLER: That is impossible.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Why?

HESSLER: Because Kuppisch took his U-boat out to sea in July 1943 and never returned from that cruise. The incident of U-386 happened in the autumn of 1943, which was later.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Korvettenkapitän Möhle in his first statement left the possibility open that this story about U-386 might have come from you. Did you discuss this matter with him?

HESSLER: No.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Are you certain of that?

HESSLER: Absolutely certain.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you hear of the interpretation given by Korvettenkapitän Möhle to this Laconia order?

HESSLER: After the capitulation—that is, after the end of the war and then through a British officer.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How do you explain the fact that of the very few officers who received these instructions from Möhle, none raised the question of the interpretation of this order with Commander, U-boats?

HESSLER: I have only one explanation of this; and that is that these officers thought Korvettenkapitän Möhle’s interpretation completely impossible, and not in agreement with the interpretation of Commander, U-boats.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Therefore, they did not think that clarification was necessary?

HESSLER: They did not think that clarification was necessary.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution’s charges against Admiral Dönitz are based to a great extent on extracts from the War Diary of the SKL and Commander, U-boats, documents which are in the possession of the British Admiralty. How is it possible that all these data fell into the hands of the British Admiralty—and in toto?

HESSLER: It was the Admiral’s desire that the war diaries of the U-boats and of Commander, U-boats, which formed part of the Navy archives, should be preserved and not be destroyed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he say anything to you about this?

HESSLER: Yes, in that form, when I told him that our own staff data had been completely destroyed.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did he give any reason as to why he did not want the Navy archives destroyed?

HESSLER: He wanted to keep these data until after the war, and the Naval Operations Staff had nothing to conceal.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Is that your opinion or is that the opinion which Admiral Dönitz expressed to you?

HESSLER: He told me, “We have a clear conscience.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Immediately after the capitulation you were repeatedly interrogated on questions of U-boat warfare and you asked the senior officer present whether the German U-boat command would be accused by the British Navy of criminal acts. Is that right?

HESSLER: Yes.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what answer did you receive?

HESSLER: An unhesitating “No.”

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any defendant’s counsel wish to ask any questions?

[There was no response.]

The Prosecution?

COL. PHILLIMORE: With the Tribunal’s permission I would not propose to cross-examine and ask leave to adapt my cross-examination of the last witness because it is the same ground substantially.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

Does any other Prosecutor wish to cross-examine?

Yes, Dr. Kranzbühler?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions to ask the witness, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: In the interrogation of the Defendant Dönitz he said that Godt and Hessler—that is you, is it not...?

HESSLER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: ...told him, “Don’t send that signal. You see, one day it might appear in the wrong; it might be misinterpreted.” Did you say that?

HESSLER: I do not remember. As consulting officers, we often had to oppose orders which were being drafted, and we were entitled to do so; but I do not remember whether Admiral Godt and I did so in this case.

THE PRESIDENT: Then later in this interrogation the Defendant Dönitz said:

“I am completely and personally responsible for it”—that is that order—“because Captains Godt and Hessler both expressly stated that they considered the telegram as ambiguous or liable to be misinterpreted.”

Did you say that this telegram was ambiguous or liable to be misinterpreted?

HESSLER: I do not remember that point. I do not think I thought the telegram was ambiguous.

THE PRESIDENT: And lastly the Defendant Dönitz said this:

“I would like to emphasize once more that both Captain Godt and Captain Hessler were violently opposed to the sending of the telegram.”

Do you say that you were not violently opposed to the sending of the telegram?

HESSLER: It is possible that we opposed the dispatch of the telegram because we did not consider it necessary to refer to the matter again.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you say anything to the Defendant Dönitz about this telegram at all?

HESSLER: At the drafting of the telegram we talked it over, just as we discussed every wireless message drafted by us. As time went on, we drafted many hundreds of wireless messages so that it is impossible to remember just what was said in each case.

THE PRESIDENT: You began your answer to that question: “At the drafting of this telegram...”

Do you remember what happened at the drafting of this telegram?

HESSLER: I can remember only that in the course of the so-called Laconia incident a great many wireless messages were sent and received; that many wireless messages were drafted; and that, in addition, U-boat operations were going on in the Atlantic, so that I cannot recall details of what happened when the message was drafted.

THE PRESIDENT: You said now that it was possible that you and Admiral Godt were opposed to the sending of this telegram. Is that your answer?

HESSLER: It is possible, but I cannot say.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Dr. Kranzbühler, the witness can retire.

[The witness left the stand.]

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, this morning I had already advised the Prosecution that I shall not call the fourth witness scheduled—that is Admiral Eckardt. Therefore, my examination of witnesses has been concluded.

THE PRESIDENT: And that concludes your case for the present?

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: That concludes my case, but with the permission of the Tribunal I would like to clarify one more question which deals with documents.

The Tribunal has refused all documents which refer to contraband, control ports, and the “Navicert” system. These questions are of some importance if I am to give a correct exposition later on.

May I interpret the Tribunal’s decision as saying that these documents are not to be used now as evidence but that I may have permission to use them later on in my legal exposition?

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kranzbühler, the Tribunal thinks that is a question which may be reserved until the time comes for you to make your speech.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I have concluded my case.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 15 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]

ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTIETH DAY Wednesday, 15 May 1946

Morning Session

[The witness Emil Puhl took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

EMIL PUHL (Witness): Emil Johann Rudolf Puhl.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Witness Puhl, you were formerly Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: If I am correctly informed, you were a member of the Directorate of the Reichsbank already at the time of Dr. Schacht?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When Dr. Schacht left, you were one of the few gentlemen who remained in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You were then named by Hitler, on the suggestion of the Defendant Funk, to be Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When was that?

PUHL: During the year 1939.

DR. SAUTER: During the year 1939. You have said that you were Managing Vice President, and I presume this was due to the fact that banking was not the special field of the Defendant Funk while you were a banking expert, and that Funk in addition had charge of the Reich Ministry of Economics. Is that correct?

PUHL: Yes, but there was another reason, namely, the division of authority between official business on one side, and the handling of personnel on the other.

DR. SAUTER: The actual conduct of business was apparently your responsibility?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Hence, the title Managing Vice President?

PUHL: Yes. May I make a few comments on this?

DR. SAUTER: Only if it is necessary in the interests of the case.

PUHL: Yes. The business of the Directorate of the Reichsbank was divided among a number of members of the Directorate. Every member had full responsibility for his own sphere. The Vice President was the primus inter pares, his main task was to act as chairman at meetings to represent the President in the outside world and to deal with problems of general economic and banking policy.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Defendant Funk referred to you as a witness as early as December. You know that, don’t you? And accordingly, you were interrogated at the camp where you are now accommodated, I believe in Baden-Baden...

PUHL: Near Baden-Baden.

DR. SAUTER: ...interrogated on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Two days later you were again interrogated?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know why the matters on which you were questioned on 3 May were not dealt with during the interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: I have before me the affidavit dated 3 May.

DR. SAUTER: 3 May. That deals with these business affairs with the SS.

PUHL: Yes. But I was questioned on this subject already on 1 May, only very briefly, and on 3 May there was a second interrogation for the purpose of discussing it in more detail.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not mention these business affairs of the Reichsbank with the SS during your interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did you mention them?

PUHL: A short statement was made.

DR. SAUTER: During the interrogation of 1 May?

PUHL: Yes. At any rate, the statement on 3 May made during the interrogation was only a more detailed record of what had already been briefly discussed before.

DR. SAUTER: I have the record of your interrogation on 1 May before me; I read through it again today. But as far as I can see, it contains no mention at all of business affairs with the SS. You must be speaking now of another interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think perhaps I can be helpful in this apparent confusion. The interrogatory which was authorized by the Tribunal was taken on 1 May, but on that same day, and independent of these interrogatories, a member of our staff also interviewed this witness. But it was a separate interview. It wasn’t related to the interrogatory, and I think that is the source of the confusion.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SAUTER: Were you interrogated twice about these transactions with the SS?

PUHL: Yes, twice during the days around 1 May; that is correct.

DR. SAUTER: Do you still remember the affidavit which you signed on 3 May?

PUHL: On 3 May, yes.

DR. SAUTER: It is the affidavit which deals with these transactions with the SS. Are your statements in this affidavit correct?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you been interrogated on these matters again since that time, since 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When?

PUHL: Here in Nuremberg.

DR. SAUTER: When were you interrogated?

PUHL: During the last few days.

DR. SAUTER: I see. Today is Wednesday, when was it?

PUHL: Friday, Monday, Tuesday.

DR. SAUTER: Yesterday?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On this matter?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Was a film also shown to you here?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Once or twice?

PUHL: Once.

DR. SAUTER: Had you seen this film before?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did you recognize clearly what was presented in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because, as you know, the film runs very quickly and is very short; the Prosecution showed it twice in the courtroom so that one might follow it fairly well. Did one showing suffice to make clear to you what the film contained?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then will you tell me what you saw in it, only what you saw in the film, or what you think you saw.

PUHL: Yes. The film was taken in front of the safes of our bank at Frankfurt-on-Main, the usual safes with glass doors, behind which one could see the locked cases and containers, which had apparently been deposited there. It was the usual picture presented by such strong rooms. In front of these safes were several containers which had been opened so that their contents could be seen—coins, jewelry, pearls, bank notes, clocks.

DR. SAUTER: What sort of clocks?

PUHL: Large alarm clocks.

DR. SAUTER: Nothing else? Didn’t you see anything else in the film?

PUHL: Apart from these objects?

DR. SAUTER: Apart from these, shall we say, valuables, didn’t you see anything else that is alleged to have been kept there?

PUHL: No, no.

DR. SAUTER: Only these valuables? Please go on.

PUHL: I noticed that among these valuables there were coins, apparently silver coins, and also bank notes, obviously American bank notes.

DR. SAUTER: Correct.

PUHL: It was astonishing that these things were given to us for safekeeping, because if they had come to the knowledge of our officials, then no doubt...

DR. SAUTER: Speak slowly, please.

PUHL: ...no doubt the bank notes would have been immediately turned over to the foreign exchange department, since, as is known, a general order existed for the turning in of foreign bank notes which particularly were much in demand.

Something similar applies to the coins. These, too, ought to have been transferred to the treasury in accordance with the regulations and routine of business, that is to say, they should have been purchased for the accounts of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: That is what you noticed in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And nothing else?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, valuable articles entrusted to the Reichsbank for safekeeping were supposed to have been kept in the Reichsbank in that way. Now I have been asking myself whether your Reichsbank really stored the valuables entrusted to it in the manner apparent from the film and I therefore want to ask this question of you: Do you as Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank know how valuables which were handed over for safekeeping in the strong-rooms were kept, for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt, where this film was taken?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell the Court.

PUHL: The outer appearance of the safe installations in Berlin was somewhat similar to that in Frankfurt, and probably similar to any other large bank. These things were known to us as “closed deposits,” a banking term, and were kept, as the name indicates, in closed containers. Space for these was provided by us and paid for by the depositors, according to the size in each case.

DR. SAUTER: Were these things kept—for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt—exactly as shown in the film?

PUHL: Well, I had the impression that the things of which we are now talking had been put there expressly for the purpose of taking the film.

DR. SAUTER: For the film. Do you recollect seeing a sack, which I think was shown in the film, with the label “Reichsbank Frankfurt?”

PUHL: Yes, I saw a sack labeled “Reichsbank”; I cannot say whether “Reichsbank Frankfurt.”

DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, it had “Reichsbank Frankfurt” on it. For that reason we assumed that the film was taken at Frankfurt, and the Prosecution confirmed that.

MR. DODD: I don’t like to interrupt but I think we should be careful about this statement. There have been two mistakes of some slight importance already. We didn’t show the film twice before this Tribunal and that bag doesn’t bear the legend “Frankfurt.” It simply says “Reichsbank.” And it was the Schacht film that was shown twice here, because it moved rather quickly.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you continue with your reply to the question. I can put it in this way: Did the Reichsbank keep gold articles and the like in such sacks?

PUHL: If I understand you correctly, you are asking this: When valuables were deposited with us, were they deposited in open sacks? Is that correct?

DR. SAUTER: I do not know what procedure you had.

PUHL: We at any rate had closed deposits, as the name implies. Of course, it may be a sack which is closed; that is quite possible.

DR. SAUTER: So far as I saw in banks at Munich, the things which were deposited there in increased measure during the war were without exception deposited in closed boxes or cases and the like, so that generally the bank did not know at all what was contained in the cases or boxes. Did you in the Reichsbank follow a different procedure?

PUHL: No, it was exactly the same. And the noticeable thing about this sack, as has been said, is the label “Reichsbank.” Obviously it is a sack belonging to us and not to any private person.

DR. SAUTER: Then you too, if I may repeat this to avoid any doubt, you too kept in a closed container the valuables, which had been deposited as “closed deposits.”

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Or they went to the strongboxes?

PUHL: The word “deposits” might be misleading. The closed containers went to the strong-room. The strong-room consisted of strongboxes where these cases or containers were deposited. Quite independent of that arrangement, we had the “open deposits.” Open deposits are those which by initial agreement are administered openly. The strong-rooms for these were located in quite a different part of the building from the so-called main strong-room.

DR. SAUTER: But presumably, we are not concerned here with these open deposits?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, I come to the deposits of the SS. These deposits were not in Frankfurt but presumably in Berlin in the central bank.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, will you give details about the discussions which the Defendant Funk had with you regarding the SS deposits. And may I ask you to consider your replies and search your memory very carefully before answering my questions. Naturally I shall allow you time.

First of all, what did you and the Defendant Funk discuss when you talked about these deposits of the SS for the first time?

PUHL: I refer here to my affidavit of 3 May. I had a very simple talk with Herr Funk. It turned on the request of the SS to make use of our bank installations by depositing valuables for which, it was said, there was not sufficient protection in the cellars of the SS building. Perhaps, for the sake of completeness, I may add that “SS,” in this connection, always means the Economic Department of the SS.

DR. SAUTER: What did the Defendant Funk speak of at the time? Did he specify exactly what should be accepted for safekeeping?

PUHL: He mentioned valuables which the SS had brought from the Eastern Territories, which were then in their cellars and which, above all, they requested us to keep in safety.

DR. SAUTER: But did the Defendant Funk tell you in detail what these valuables were?

PUHL: No, not in detail, but he said that in general they were gold, foreign currency, silver, and jewelry.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver, jewelry...

PUHL: To which I may add that gold and foreign currency had of course to be surrendered to the Reichsbank at any rate.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver and jewelry?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And that was supposed to have been confiscated in the Eastern Territories?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did the Defendant Funk tell you at the time why these confiscations had been made, or who had been affected by them?

PUHL: No, that was not stated; the talk, as I have said, was brief.

DR. SAUTER: And what was your reply?

PUHL: I said that this sort of business with the SS would at least be inconvenient for us, and I voiced objections to it. I may add that we, as the Reichsbank, were always very cautious in these matters, for example, when valuables were offered us by foreign exchange control offices, customs offices, and the like.

DR. SAUTER: What was the actual reason for your objections in the case of the SS?

PUHL: Because one could not know what inconvenient consequences a business connection of this sort might produce.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, that answer does not satisfy me. Did you or the Defendant Funk not wish to have anything to do with the SS at all, or was there some other reason for your objections?

PUHL: The first part of your question I answer with “no.” There was no objection on principle, nor could there be; for, after all, every German organization or institution had the legal right to enjoy the services of the Reichsbank.

The circumstances arising out of these confiscations were uncomfortable, like the confiscations of the foreign exchange control offices, et cetera, which I mentioned, because one never knew what difficulties might result.

DR. SAUTER: So that, if I understand you well—please correct me if I interpret it wrongly—you voiced objections because these business affairs were somewhat uncomfortable for the Reichsbank, they fell outside the normal scope of business, and were as little welcome to you as, for instance, deposits of the customs authorities or the foreign exchange control offices, and so forth? Only for this reason?

PUHL: Yes. But I have to add something; we were asked whether we would assist the SS in handling these deposits. It was immediately clear, of course, and also expressly stated, that these deposits included foreign currency, and also securities and all sorts of gold coins, et cetera, and that the SS people did not quite know how to deal with these things.

DR. SAUTER: Did these things arrive subsequently?

PUHL: Yes. But something else happened before that. After this conversation the head of the Economic Department of the SS, whose name was Pohl, Obergruppenführer Pohl, contacted me. I asked him to come to my office, and there he repeated, what I already knew, namely that he would welcome it if we would take over these valuables as soon as possible.

DR. SAUTER: What was your answer?

PUHL: I confirmed what we had arranged and said, “If you will designate officials from your department, I shall inform our department, and together they can discuss the technical details.”

DR. SAUTER: To revert to an earlier stage: What did the Defendant Funk say when you explained during your first conversation with him that you would not willingly take over those things because one often had a lot of trouble with such matters?

PUHL: My objections were subordinated to the broader consideration of assisting the SS, all the more—and this must be emphasized—because these things were for the account of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: Did you discuss whether these things, particularly gold, should be converted by the Reichsbank or melted down?

PUHL: No, not in detail; it was merely said that the officials of the Reichsbank should offer their good services to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: I do not quite understand. The good services of the Reichsbank officials consist in receiving these valuables into safekeeping and locking them up?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Were the services of your officials to go beyond that?

PUHL: Yes, inasmuch as the SS people were to come and remove from the containers whatever had to be surrendered.

DR. SAUTER: For instance, gold coins, foreign currency, et cetera?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then did you see—to come back to the question already put—did you see what arrived, what the SS delivered?

PUHL: No, not personally. This happened far away from my office, in quite a different building, downstairs in the strong-rooms which I, as Vice President of the Reichsbank, would not normally enter without a special reason.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, as Vice President, visit these strong-rooms frequently?

PUHL: It was a habit of mine, sometimes at an interval of three months or longer, to go through the strong-rooms; if there was some occasion for it, for instance, when there was a visitor to be conducted or some new installation to be discussed, or when there was something of importance beyond mere attendance on the safes and the clients.

DR. SAUTER: But, of course, as Vice President, you had nothing to do with attending to customers?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: And I should like to put the same question to you with regard to the Defendant Funk. Did the Defendant Funk, who moreover belonged to the Reichsbank only in part, go to the strong-rooms often?

If so, how often and for what reason? And did he see what had been handed in by the SS?

PUHL: The answer is that Funk, too, went to the strong-rooms on special occasions, for example, when there were foreign visitors. Naturally, I would not know how often, nor whether he saw the SS deposits. That depends on whether the strong-room officials who were conducting him pointed them out to him.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, Witness, see the things which came from the SS—did you see them yourself?

PUHL: No, never.

DR. SAUTER: Never?

PUHL: Never.

DR. SAUTER: Do you think that the Defendant Funk saw them?

PUHL: I cannot tell that, of course; it depends on whether the strong-room officials pointed out specifically: “Here is the deposit of the SS.”

DR. SAUTER: Then I presume you cannot give us any information on how these things of the SS were actually kept or how they were packed?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Whether in boxes or...

PUHL: No, I do not know that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you talk again about this whole affair of the SS deposits with the Defendant Funk?

PUHL: Hardly at all, as far as I can remember. But I must certainly have talked to him a second time, after Herr Pohl had visited me, since it was, of course, my task and my duty to keep Funk informed of everything.

DR. SAUTER: Did the members of the Reichsbank Directorate, the board of directors, attach a special significance to this whole matter so that there might have been occasion to discuss it more frequently? Or was it regarded as just an unpleasant but unimportant sort of business?

PUHL: No. At the beginning there was probably a report on it to the meeting of the Directorate, but then it was not mentioned again.

DR. SAUTER: You cannot recollect having later again talked of the matter with Funk? But it is possible, if I understood you correctly, that after the settlement with SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, you may again have reported about it briefly? Did I understand you correctly?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, in your affidavit under Figure 5, you say that among the articles deposited by the SS were jewelry, watches, spectacle frames, gold fillings—apparently these dental fillings—and other articles in large quantities which the SS had taken away from Jews and concentration camp victims and other persons. How do you know that?

PUHL: I know that from my interrogations at Frankfurt.

DR. SAUTER: You were told about these things during your interrogations in Frankfurt after your arrest?

PUHL: And they were shown to me.

DR. SAUTER: You had no knowledge of them while you were free and administered the Reichsbank as Vice President?

PUHL: No, because, I repeat it again, we never discussed this in the Directorate, since it was of no basic significance for currency or banking policy or in any other respect.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, if at that time in 1942 you had known that these were articles which the SS had taken away from many concentration camp victims, would you have received them into safekeeping?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: What would you have done?

PUHL: Then we would have come to some decision on the attitude which the bank as a whole should adopt toward this problem.

DR. SAUTER: Who would have had the decisive word?

PUHL: The decision would have been made by the Directorate of the Reichsbank as an executive group, as a corporate body, and then it would have been submitted to the President for countersignature.

DR. SAUTER: Earlier—I must fill in this gap in connection with your affidavit—you expressed yourself in a rather misleading way. You stated earlier: “This was brought to our knowledge, because the SS personnel attempted to convert this material into gold, into cash.” And today you say that you heard of it only after your arrest. Apparently, if I understand you correctly, there must be...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, I do not understand why you say “earlier.” It is the sentence which followed the sentence which you put to him.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say “earlier” then? Why do you say “earlier”?

DR. SAUTER: In his affidavit—if the wording of the affidavit is correct and there is no misunderstanding—the witness said...

THE PRESIDENT: What I am pointing out to you is that the first sentence reads like this: “The material deposited by the SS included all these items taken from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons by the SS.” And it then goes on, “This was brought to our knowledge by the SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash.” What you are now putting to him is that that acceptance was put to him earlier. At least that is what I understood you to say.

DR. SAUTER: No; the witness said today that he was told only during his interrogations in Frankfurt-on-Main that these articles had been taken from concentration camp victims, et cetera. The affidavit, however, can and must be interpreted in my opinion as saying that he received this information, already before his arrest, through the SS personnel and that apparently is not true. For that reason I asked the witness whether this expression in the affidavit is not a misunderstanding.

Now, Witness, if I may repeat this: You first heard that these articles belonged to concentration camp victims at your interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And when did you learn what was contained in this deposit; when did you know that, to pick out one example, gold teeth were contained in it?

PUHL: Not at all. No details of this transaction were submitted to the Directorate by the strong-room or safe officials.

DR. SAUTER: So of this, too, you heard only after your arrest?

PUHL: Of the details, yes.

DR. SAUTER: Good. Now, you speak of an agreement which, according to the statement of Funk, Himmler, the Reichsführer of the SS, is said to have made with the Reich Minister of Finance. What do you know about this agreement?

PUHL: That is the agreement I have already mentioned. It was clear from the beginning that the value of the things deposited with us was to be credited to the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: Not to the SS?

PUHL: No, not to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: Why not? The SS were the depositors, were they not?

PUHL: Yes, but they maintained that their actions were carried out in the name and on behalf of the Reich and its accounts.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know whether these valuables, which in some way had been confiscated or stolen by the SS in the East, were placed as a matter of principle at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance?

PUHL: I did not quite understand the question. Are you referring to these articles or to confiscated articles, valuables in general?

DR. SAUTER: To all valuables. I am speaking of gold, foreign currency, and so forth, all these valuables acquired by the SS in the East; were they all to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance, and not of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: The equivalent value?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, the equivalent value.

PUHL: The equivalent value was credited to the Reich Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: In this connection, Witness, may I show you two accounts. I do not know whether you have seen them. They are two accounts of the chief cashier’s office of your bank.

PUHL: Yes, to us.

DR. SAUTER: I should like you, then, to look at them, and to tell me whether you have seen them before and what you know about them?

PUHL: I saw these two copies—photostat copies—during my interrogations.

DR. SAUTER: But not earlier?

PUHL: No, not earlier. And from these photostat copies it is clear—we have just discussed it—that the equivalent value was to be credited to the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office, as it says here; the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office was a part of the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: So apparently it is connected with this agreement, of which you heard, that finally all these things belonged to the Reich Ministry of Finance, to the Reich.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now I have one more question on this subject. And I would like to know whether perhaps there is a misunderstanding in this case too. You say in the affidavit that Funk told you this matter should be kept absolutely secret; that is the wording. You did not mention this point at all today, although we have the affidavit in front of us. Will you say now whether this is true or whether it is a misunderstanding?

PUHL: That it should be kept secret? No.

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

PUHL: Of course, this matter was to be kept secret, but then everything that happens in a bank must be kept secret.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, this statement cannot, of course, satisfy us. Did you, during your interrogation of 3 May, say what is contained in this document, namely, that the matter was to be kept absolutely secret, or did you express yourself in different words?

PUHL: No, the wording of the affidavit is correct; the matter was to be kept absolutely secret.

DR. SAUTER: Why?

PUHL: Why? Because, plainly, such matters are usually kept secret and are not publicized; furthermore, these things came from the East. I repeat what I said before, that our attitude towards confiscated articles was always to avoid them.

DR. SAUTER: Did it strike you as unusual that the Defendant Funk spoke of keeping the matter secret?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Or did it not strike you as unusual?

PUHL: Not as unusual.

DR. SAUTER: Not as unusual?

PUHL: No. It was merely decided in the conversation that since we were not willing to accept the confiscated articles of the foreign exchange control offices and the customs offices, we should, naturally, insist on secrecy in accepting these articles.

DR. SAUTER: Yes. But from your account of the matter, it appears that, on one hand, you considered the business to be perfectly legal, and you yourself say that it was perfectly legal; on the other hand, secrecy was for you, as an old banking expert, a matter of course. Now the question arises, why then was the subject of keeping the matter secret discussed at all?

PUHL: Herr Funk himself had been asked to keep the matter as secret as possible, and he passed on that request.

DR. SAUTER: When did Funk tell you that he had been asked to keep it secret?

PUHL: I do not remember that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not ask him why it should be kept secret, absolutely secret, as you say? I do not know whether you still maintain “absolutely secret”?

PUHL: Yes, a special duty of observing secrecy was to be imposed on the officials.

DR. SAUTER: Well, what did you, as Vice President, as Managing Vice President, say to that?

PUHL: I did not say anything because, if that had been agreed upon, then this wish would have to be complied with.

DR. SAUTER: But you do not know whether it had been agreed upon?

PUHL: Well, I assume that it was agreed upon.

DR. SAUTER: You consider it possible?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And—to repeat this—you did not at all see the articles which arrived?

PUHL: No, not at all.

DR. SAUTER: And probably you do not know how many there were?

PUHL: No, I do not know that either; and, as I said before, I never saw an account; that was not in conformity with our procedure, as individual transactions were not submitted to the members of the Directorate.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because recently, when this case was discussed, it was asserted that whole truckloads of such articles, whole truckloads had arrived. You are already laughing and you will laugh more when I tell you that 47 truckloads of gold were said to have arrived at your bank; and you knew nothing about them?

PUHL: I have never heard of that.

DR. SAUTER: You heard nothing about that? Witness, we will leave this point and turn to the second point in your affidavit of May, with which we can deal very briefly.

I think you knew Herr Pohl, SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, of whom you spoke just now, already in 1942?

PUHL: Yes, but none the less this was the first occasion on which Pohl came to my office.

DR. SAUTER: This is no reproach, I just wanted to establish a fact. You knew him as a result of this first credit transaction which took place at an earlier time.

PUHL: Yes, that may be.

DR. SAUTER: The Defendant Funk says, you see, that as far as he can remember this credit matter—and he did not attach any special significance to it at the time—it was negotiated about 1940, some time before the other transaction. Can that be true? Approximately?

PUHL: I can neither deny nor confirm that; I no longer recall the date of the credit.

DR. SAUTER: Well, in your affidavit you state, with reference to this credit, that the Reichsbank had granted a credit of 10 or 12 millions to the SS, I believe to pay off a loan which the SS had taken up with another bank. And you say that this credit was used for financing production in factories directed by the SS, where workers from concentration camps were employed.

Witness, I am not primarily interested in this credit as such because it was, of course, part of your business as a bank; and the figure of, I think, 10 or 12 millions was also not unusual. But I am interested in how you knew that this money was to be used for SS factories in which workers from concentration camps were employed. How did you know that?

PUHL: The application for credit came from the Economic Department of the SS which I have mentioned before. This department was directing a number of factories in Germany, and needed money for that purpose. The Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give this credit, but only in the form of regular business credits. In other words, the debtor had to submit a balance sheet to us and at regular intervals had to report on his production, his general financial position, his plans for the immediate future, in short, all matters on which a debtor is bound to inform his creditor.

The board of directors of the Gold Discount Bank conducted these negotiations, in which the representatives of the Economic Department, who submitted the balance sheets, naturally discussed their production program, which was remarkable insofar as the wage figures affecting the balance were comparatively low. And so the natural question arose: Why is your wage account so low? The director of the Gold Discount Bank reported on this subject to the board meeting of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: You always refer to the Gold Discount Bank. The Tribunal would be interested to know whether the Gold Discount Bank is identical with the Reichsbank, whether it was also under the jurisdiction of the Defendant Funk and your own, and what was its position?

PUHL: The Gold Discount Bank was an institute subsidiary to the Reichsbank; it was founded in the twenties for various purposes, not only for the promotion of exports, but also for the increase of production. The capital structure...

DR. SAUTER: No, we are not interested in that.

PUHL: Practically all the shares were in the hands of the Reichsbank. The Gold Discount Bank had a Board of Directors always headed by the President of the Reichsbank; it also had a deputy chairman who was the Second Vice President of the Reichsbank, and the Board of Directors itself included a number of members of the Directorate of the Reichsbank, and also the State Secretaries of the Ministry of Economics and of the Ministry of Finance.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not interesting to us to know who the exact directors of the Gold Discount Bank were.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I wanted, in fact, to interrupt you earlier, and tell you that what you have just related is without significance for the Trial. To me and to the Tribunal it is only of interest to hear whether the Defendant Funk, as far as you definitely remember, had knowledge of these matters, of the purpose of this credit and whether he knew that in these factories people from the concentration camps were employed? Do you, or do you not know?

PUHL: I might assume that, but I cannot know it. At any rate, it was known that the credit was destined for these factories.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I cannot be satisfied with that answer because the SS, as you have probably heard in the meantime, directed various undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed. To my knowledge, for example, the porcelain factory at Allach did not apparently employ concentration camp inmates. Then for example, the entire personnel at the spas...

MR. DODD: I object to testimony by counsel. He is practically giving the answer to this witness before he asks the question.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know whether the SS had undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed?

PUHL: I did not, of course, know every individual business run by the SS, nor could I know in each case whether prisoners were or were not employed.

DR. SAUTER: Was the Defendant Funk present at all during the meeting at which this credit was discussed?

PUHL: No, he was not present; the records of the proceedings were submitted; we always adopted that procedure.

DR. SAUTER: Then did the Defendant Funk talk at all with the people who had given information on the unusual figures of the wage account?

PUHL: No, that was done by the Board of Directors of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: That was done by the board of the Gold Discount Bank, not by the Defendant Funk?

Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness.

MR. DODD: I have just a few questions to ask, Your Honor.

[Turning to the witness.] Whom have you talked to besides representatives of the Prosecution since you have arrived here in Nuremberg? Did you look at any paper?

PUHL: I do not know all their names, I believe a Mr. Kempner, Mr. Margolis...

MR. DODD: I am not asking you about the gentlemen of the Prosecution. I am asking you whom else you have talked to, if anybody, since you arrived here in Nuremberg. That doesn’t require very much thought. Have you talked to anybody else since you arrived here or not?

PUHL: Only to the other prisoners in the corridor of our prison.

MR. DODD: To no one else?

PUHL: No one else.

MR. DODD: Now, are you absolutely sure about that?

PUHL: Yes, absolutely.

MR. DODD: Did you talk to Dr. Stuckart over in the witness wing, and about your testimony that you were going to give here this morning? Answer that question.

PUHL: Dr. Stuckart is one of the prisoners in the corridor of our witness wing.

MR. DODD: I didn’t ask you that. I asked you if you didn’t talk to him a day or two ago about your testimony in this case?

PUHL: No.

MR. DODD: Now, I think it is awfully important to you that I remind you that you are under oath here. I am going to ask you again if you didn’t talk to Dr. Stuckart over in this witness wing about your testimony or about the facts concerning Funk in this case?

PUHL: No, I talked about all sorts of general matters.

MR. DODD: You didn’t talk to four or five of those other people over there either about your testimony or about the facts here?

PUHL: No, absolutely not.

MR. DODD: All right. You know a man by the name of Thoms, T-h-o-m-s?

PUHL: T-h-o-m-s? He was an official of the Reichsbank who worked in the vaults of the Reichsbank in Berlin.

MR. DODD: You know the man, you do know him?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now, you talked to him about these deposits put in by the SS, didn’t you, Herr Puhl?

PUHL: To Herr Thoms, no.

MR. DODD: You didn’t talk to him?

PUHL: No, I have not seen Herr Thoms at all in Nuremberg, and only from a distance in Frankfurt.

MR. DODD: I am not referring to Nuremberg now. We will get away from that for a minute. I mean during the time that these deposits were being made in the Reichsbank. Did you not talk to Herr Thoms about the deposits?

PUHL: Yes, as has been stated here in the affidavit.

MR. DODD: Well, never mind the affidavit for a few minutes. I have a few questions I want to ask you. I am particularly interested in this matter of secrecy. What did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits? Did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits?

PUHL: I must add that I really talked with Herr Tonetti, because he was the person responsible; and Herr Thoms was only called in. I told both gentlemen that it was desired the matter be kept secret.

MR. DODD: Did you say that it had to be kept a secret and that they must not discuss it with anybody else; that it was highly secret, a special transaction, and if anybody asked him about it, he was to say that he was forbidden to speak about it? Did you tell that to Herr Thoms in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes, that was the sense of what I said.

MR. DODD: Well, that is what I am asking you. Why did you tell Thoms that he was not to speak about it; that it was absolutely forbidden; that it was highly secret, if it was just the ordinary confidence reposed in bank officials attached to a business relationship?

PUHL: Because the Reichsbank President Funk personally conveyed this wish to me.

MR. DODD: Well, now, I think perhaps there is some confusion in our minds. You see, I clearly understood, and I expect others as well as the Tribunal may have in the courtroom this morning, that you were telling counsel for Funk that the secrecy attached to these transactions was not extraordinary but just the ordinary secrecy or confidence that banking people attach to their relationship with customers. Now, of course, that wasn’t so, was it?

PUHL: The position, as I explained it earlier, is this: These confiscated valuables were usually rejected by us when brought to the bank; and if an exception was now being made, then it was a matter of course that a greater amount of secrecy, a special obligation to maintain secrecy, should be observed.

MR. DODD: I wish you would answer this question very directly. Wasn’t there a special reason for special secrecy with respect to these deposits by the SS? You can answer that Yes or No.

PUHL: No, I did not perceive a special reason.

MR. DODD: Then why were you telling Thoms that it was highly secret and he was to tell anybody who asked him about it that he was forbidden to speak about it? You didn’t ordinarily instruct your people to that effect, did you?

PUHL: Because I myself had received this instruction.

MR. DODD: That may be so, but that was a special secrecy, wasn’t it? That wasn’t your ordinary and customary way of doing business?

PUHL: The confiscated articles were usually rejected when they reached us; if the exception which we made in this case became known, then it would immediately have provided an example for others; and that we wanted to avoid under all circumstances.

MR. DODD: You didn’t want to discuss this matter on the telephone with Pohl of the SS, did you? You asked him to come to your office rather than talk about it on the telephone?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Why was that, if it was just an ordinary business transaction?

PUHL: Because one never knew to what extent the telephone was being tapped, and thus the transaction might have become known to others.

MR. DODD: Well, you didn’t talk to anybody much on the telephone; is that right? You were a man that never used the telephone out of the Reichsbank? Now, I think you realize fully well that there was a special reason in this case for not wanting to talk on the telephone and I think you should tell the Tribunal what it was.

PUHL: Yes; the reason was, as I have said repeatedly, that from the beginning special secrecy was desired, this desire was respected and adhered to everywhere, also as to this telephone call.

MR. DODD: And you are still insisting that this transaction was not a special secret transaction that you told Dr. Kempner was a “Schweinerei.” Do you know what that word means?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: What does it mean? It means it smelled bad, doesn’t it?

PUHL: That we should not have done it.

MR. DODD: Now, you called up Thoms on more than one occasion to ask him how the deposits from the SS were coming in, didn’t you?

PUHL: No, I saw Thoms relatively seldom, often not for months, as he could hardly come to my office.

MR. DODD: I didn’t ask you if you saw him often. I asked you if you didn’t call him on the telephone and ask him how the deposits were coming along?

PUHL: No, I took no further interest in the conduct of this particular transaction. Moreover, the requesting of a report from the cashier would have been the proper procedure.

MR. DODD: Did you tell him to get in touch with Brigadeführer Frank or Gruppenführer or Obergruppenführer Wolff of the SS? Did you tell that to Thoms?

PUHL: Yes, I repeat what I said earlier; when Pohl was in my office he told me that he would appoint two people to negotiate the transaction with the Reichsbank, and they were the two people just mentioned; I passed on their names to the cashier’s office.

MR. DODD: What was the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: I heard of the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank for the first time in Frankfurt, when I saw it in the files.

MR. DODD: Don’t you know the name Melmer, M-e-l-m-e-r?

PUHL: Yes, from my time in Frankfurt.

MR. DODD: Didn’t you on one occasion call Herr Thoms on the telephone and ask him how the “Melmer” deposits were coming along?

PUHL: I am afraid I didn’t quite understand.

MR. DODD: Well, I say, didn’t you on one occasion at least call Herr Thoms on the telephone in the Reichsbank and ask him how the “Melmer” deposits were coming along?

PUHL: No, I could not have put that question because I did not know the word “Melmer.”

MR. DODD: You don’t know that Melmer was the name of an SS man? You don’t know that?

PUHL: No, I did not know that.

MR. DODD: I want you to look at an affidavit by Mr. Thoms, executed the 8th day of May 1946. You have seen this before, by the way; haven’t you, you saw it yesterday? Answer that question, will you please, Mr. Witness. You saw this affidavit yesterday, the one I just sent up to you? You saw that yesterday, didn’t you?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: You will observe in Paragraph 5 that Thoms, who executed this affidavit, said that he went to see you and that you told him that the Reichsbank was going to act as custodian for the SS and the receipt and disposition of deposits and that the SS would deliver the property, namely gold, silver and foreign currency; and you also explained that the SS intended to deliver numerous other kinds of property such as jewelry, and “we must find a way to dispose of it,” and that he suggested to you, Mr. Puhl, that:

“We transmit the items to the Reichshauptkasse, as we did in the case of Wehrmacht booty, or that the items could be given by the Reichsführer-SS directly to the pawnshop for disposition, so that the Reichsbank had no more to do with it than it did in the case of confiscated Jewish property. Puhl told me that it was out of the question and that it was necessary that we arrange a procedure for handling this unusual property in order to hold the whole business secret.”

Then he goes on to say:

“This conversation with Puhl occurred just a short time, approximately two weeks, before the first delivery, which occurred on 26 August 1942. The conversation was in the office of Herr Puhl; nobody else was present. I don’t remember if Herr Frommknecht was present during the whole time; and Puhl said it was very important not to discuss this with anybody, that it was to be highly secret, that it was a special transaction, and if anybody asked about it that I should say I was forbidden to speak about it.”

And on the next page you find, in Paragraph 8, Herr Thoms says:

“I was told by Herr Puhl that if I had any questions on this matter I was to get in touch with Brigadeführer Frank or with Gruppenführer or Obergruppenführer Wolff of the SS. I remember getting the telephone number of this office, and I think I recall it was furnished me by Herr Puhl. I called Brigadeführer Frank about this, and he stated that the deliveries would be made by truck and would be in charge of an SS man by the name of Melmer. The question was discussed whether Melmer should appear in uniform or civilian clothes, and Frank decided it was better that Melmer appear out of uniform.”

And so on.

Then, moving on down, he says, in Paragraph 10:

“When the first delivery was made, however, although Melmer appeared in civilian clothes, one or two SS men in uniform were on guard; and after one or two deliveries most of the people in the Hauptkasse and almost everybody in my office knew all about the SS deliveries.”

Then moving on again, Paragraph 12:

“Included in the first statement sent by the Reichsbank, and signed by me, to Melmer was a question concerning the name of the account to which the proceeds should be credited. In answer to that I was orally advised by Melmer that the proceeds should be credited to the account of ‘Max Heiliger.’ I confirmed this on the telephone with the Ministry of Finance; and in my second statement to Melmer, dated 16 November 1942, I confirmed the oral conversation.”

Now, the next paragraph is 13:

“After a few months, Puhl called me and asked me how the Melmer deliveries were going along and suggested that perhaps they would soon be over. I told Puhl that the way the deliveries were coming in it looked as though they were growing.”

And then I call your attention to the next paragraph:

“One of the first hints of the sources of these items occurred when it was noticed that a packet of bills was stamped with a rubber stamp, ‘Lublin.’ This occurred some time early in 1943. Another hint came when some items bore the stamp, ‘Auschwitz.’ We all knew that these places were the sites of concentration camps. It was the tenth delivery, in November 1942, that dental gold appeared. The quantity of the dental gold became unusually great.”

Now, there is another paragraph, but I particularly want to call your attention to the fact that Thoms says you called him and asked him how the Melmer deliveries were going, and also to the fact that you, as he states in here, impressed upon him the need for absolute secrecy.

And now, I want to ask you, after having seen that affidavit again—and you will recall that you told our people yesterday that that affidavit, insofar as your knowledge was concerned, was absolutely true—now I am going to ask you if it isn’t a fact that there was a very special reason for keeping this transaction secret.

PUHL: In reading this statement, it is obvious that the desire for secrecy came from the SS; and this tallies exactly with what I said before, namely, that the SS emphasized that the desire for secrecy originated with them. And as we heard, they went so far as to invent an account—“Max Heiliger”—which was obviously, as is also clear from the statement, an account for the Reich Ministry of Finance. In other words, this tallies with what I have been saying, namely, that the obligation to keep the matter secret, this special obligation, was desired by the SS, and was carried out; and it applied even to the transfer of the equivalent value. As regards the second point, that I am supposed to have talked to Thoms, I already stated yesterday that I do not remember such a conversation among the very great number of conversations which I had at the bank daily. Nor can I imagine that I went to see him. That would have been a very unusual procedure.

I do not recall the expression “Melmer deliveries” in that connection; but I suggest that it is used in this statement for simplicity’s sake, just to refer briefly to the subject under discussion.

MR. DODD: It isn’t too important, but of course he says you called him on the telephone, that you didn’t go to see him. However, I offer this as Exhibit USA-852.

THE PRESIDENT: This statement we have before us doesn’t appear to be sworn.

MR. DODD: Well, the witness is here in Nuremberg. I will withdraw it and have it sworn to and submit it at a later date. I wasn’t aware that it wasn’t sworn to. He is here and available. I had him brought here in case any question, was raised about him.

[Turning to the witness.] Now, the Defendant Göring knew something about these deposits, too, didn’t he? Now that we are talking this thing all out, what about that?

PUHL: I was not aware that Herr Göring knew anything about these things.

MR. DODD: I show you a document that was found in the files of the Reich Treasury, the Reichsbank, rather. It is Number 3947-PS, and it is a new document. You haven’t seen this, by the way.

Now, this is a memorandum in the files, dated 31 March 1944, and it says, its subject is:

“Utilization of jewels, and so forth, which have been acquired by official agencies in favor of the Reich.

“According to an oral confidential agreement between the Vice President, Mr. Puhl, and the chief of one of Berlin’s public offices, the Reichsbank has taken over the converting of domestic and foreign moneys, gold and silver coins, precious metals, securities, jewels, watches, diamonds, and other valuable articles. These deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’

“The large amounts of jewelry, and so forth, acquired hereby have previously been turned over—after checking the number of pieces and, insofar as they had not been melted down, the approximate weights given—to the Municipal Pawn Shop, Division III, Main Office, Berlin N 4, Elsässer Strasse 74, for the best possible realization of value.”

I am not going to read all of it. It goes on with more material about the pawnshop, but I want to call your attention to the paragraph beginning:

“The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, informs the Reichsbank in his letter of 19 March 1944, copy of which is enclosed, that the considerable amounts of gold and silver objects, jewels, and so forth at the Main Office of Trustees for the East (Haupttreuhandstelle Ost) are to be delivered to the Reichsbank according to an order issued by Reich Ministers Funk and Graf Schwerin von Krosigk. The converting of these objects must be accomplished in the same way as the ‘Melmer’ deliveries.

“At the same time the Reich Marshal informs us on the converting of objects of the same kind which have been acquired in the occupied western territories. We do not know to which office these objects have been delivered and how they are liquidated.”

Then there is more about an inquiry and more about this whole business, the pawnshops, and so on. But, first of all, I want to ask you: In the first paragraph it says “according to a confidential oral agreement between you and the chief of one of Berlin’s public offices”—who was this chief of the Berlin public office who had a confidential agreement about this business with you?

PUHL: That was Herr Pohl. This is the agreement of which we spoke this morning.

MR. DODD: That was Herr Pohl of the SS, wasn’t it?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: And that was this whole transaction; this whole SS transaction that this memorandum is about, that much of it is about?

PUHL: This is a report from our cashier, and in line with the obligation of secrecy the words “SS Economic Department” have been avoided and the more general term “the head of a Berlin public office” is used.

MR. DODD: And later on in the paragraph it refers to the incoming objects to be processed under the code name “Melmer,” M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you a few minutes ago if you recognized, isn’t it?

PUHL: I didn’t understand the question.

MR. DODD: Well, the last sentence in this paragraph says: “All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’” M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you about a few minutes ago, and you said you didn’t know it.

PUHL: Yes, and this statement also shows that I couldn’t have known it, because only now, in this statement, is it disclosed that the name “Melmer” was used.

MR. DODD: I think if you will read it you will see that it shows just the opposite. It says, according to the oral confidential agreement between you and Pohl of the SS the Reichsbank took over the selling, and so on, of gold, silver coins, and so forth. “All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’”

You are not telling this Tribunal that a transaction like this was going on in your bank over which you were Vice President, under a code name, and you didn’t know it, and you were the man who was dealing directly with the SS man. Are you seriously saying that to this Court?

PUHL: Yes. The word “Melmer” was never used in my presence. But our treasury directors could use code words for the accounts of clients who preferred not to give their own names and the names of their institutions; and the treasury made use of a code word in this case too.

MR. DODD: You will observe that this is the second time this morning that we have run across the name Melmer. Herr Thoms says you used that term in talking to him, and now we find it in one of your own bank memorandums, which is a captured document. Are you still saying that you don’t know the term?

PUHL: This memorandum wasn’t made for me, but for the responsible treasury official. And specifically in order to acquaint him with the arrangements made by the treasury, the memorandum states under what code name this transaction will be carried out.

MR. DODD: Herr Puhl, look up at me a minute, will you. Didn’t you tell Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, and Dr. Kempner, when they were all together with you, that all of this business with the SS was common gossip in the Reichsbank? These gentlemen who are sitting right here, two of them at the United States table and one up here. You know them. Now I want you to think a minute before you answer that question.

PUHL: We talked of the fact that the secret was not kept, and in the long run it is not possible to keep a permanent secret in a bank; but that has nothing to do with it. What we were speaking of just now were the technical details, how this sort of transaction was carried out; those details did not become general knowledge. What naturally could not be avoided was the transaction as such becoming known.

MR. DODD: Now, in case you don’t understand me, we are not talking about that. I think you cannot help but remember because this is only a day or so ago, and in this building, you had a conversation with these gentlemen, didn’t you? And I am now asking you if it isn’t a fact that you told them that this whole SS transaction with the bank was common gossip in the bank.

PUHL: There was a general whisper in the bank about this transaction; but details were, of course, not known.

MR. DODD: Are you worried about your part in this? I think that is a fair question in view of your affidavit in your testimony. Are you concerned about what you had to do with this business? Are you?

PUHL: No. I myself, once the matter had been set in motion, had nothing further to do with it. And in the statement, which you have submitted, Herr Thoms himself admits that he did not see me at all for months. The Directorate never discussed this matter in its meetings and was never approached for a decision.

MR. DODD: You know, when the Defendant Funk was on the stand, he said that you were the one who first told him about the SS business. Is that your version of it?

PUHL: No. My recollection is that the first conversation took place in the office of President Funk; and he told me, for reasons which I stated earlier, that we wanted to oblige the SS by taking over these “deposits”—that was the word used.

MR. DODD: You put it more strongly than that the other day when you thought about it, when you said “Can you imagine Himmler talking to me instead of Funk”? Do you remember saying that to these gentlemen?

PUHL: I’m sorry I didn’t understand the last question.

MR. DODD: Well, it is not too important. I say, don’t you remember telling these gentlemen, Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, don’t you remember making this statement that Himmler wouldn’t talk to you as Vice President of the Bank, but that he would talk to Funk. You were quite upset when we told you that Funk had said that you were the man who originated this.

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: You got terribly upset about it. Don’t you remember that?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Finally, this question: Are you serious in saying that you didn’t know about these deposits until you were interrogated in Frankfurt, or what the nature of them was? In view of the Thoms affidavit, this exhibit that I have just shown you, and the whole examination this morning, do you want your testimony to close with the statement that you actually didn’t know what was in these deposits at any time?

PUHL: I saw the statement put before me today, the statement by the treasury official put before me today, for the first time in Frankfurt, and never before. Moreover, I did not and could not, as Vice President, concern myself with the details of this transaction, for I was responsible for general economic and currency policy and for credits and such things. Besides, we had a whole staff of highly qualified officials in our treasury office; and if it had been necessary, they would have had to make a report to the Directorate of the Reichsbank.

MR. DODD: Of course you don’t deny that you knew there were jewels and silver and all these other things in the deposits, do you?

PUHL: The German term “Schmucksachen,” jewelry, was always used.

MR. DODD: All right! Let’s see what you did know was in the deposits? You knew there was jewelry, some jewelry, there. You knew there was some currency. You knew there were coins. You knew there were other articles. Now, the only thing you didn’t know was the dental gold; is that so?

PUHL: That is true, certainly. It was known from the outset, and Herr Pohl had told me, that the greater part of these deposits contained mainly gold, foreign currency, silver coins, and, he added, also “some jewelry.”

MR. DODD: Well, now, the question I think you can answer simply is: Everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold you did know was on deposits from the SS. Don’t you understand that question? I don’t think it is complicated. You don’t need to read anything, Herr Puhl. If you will just look up here, I am asking you if you know about everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold.

PUHL: Well, I knew about jewelry, but I did not know in detail what kind of jewelry it was.

MR. DODD: I am not asking you about details. I am simply asking if you did know it was there. You knew there was currency there, and you knew there were other articles there. Those are about the only things that are mentioned excepting the dental gold, and that is the one thing you seem now not to have known.

PUHL: Yes, I knew, in general, that the deposits contained gold and foreign currency, and I repeat that the jewelry...

MR. DODD: And jewelry?

PUHL: I knew that there was jewelry.

MR. DODD: So the only thing you say now you didn’t know was the dental gold. That is all I am asking you. Why don’t you answer that? It doesn’t take very long. Isn’t that so? The only thing you didn’t know was the dental gold.

PUHL: No.

MR. DODD: Well, what else is mentioned you didn’t know about?

PUHL: Spectacle frames, for example, were also mentioned.

MR. DODD: You didn’t know about those either? All right, I will include those, spectacle frames and dental gold. These are the two things you didn’t know about?

PUHL: Information I received contained only the general term “jewelry.”

MR. DODD: They are the two matters that you had the most to worry about, aren’t they, eyeglass frames and dental gold?

I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please. Don’t take that man away.

[Turning to the witness.] Have you got a copy of your affidavit before you?

PUHL: Of 3 May, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you only got one copy of it?

PUHL: I must just look—Yes, I have another copy.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me have it, please, will you?

This document will be identified, and form part of the record. It had better be given whatever the appropriate number is.

MR. DODD: I believe, Mr. President, that it is already in evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Not this particular document, it is not. This is the particular document he had before him; it has got a number of manuscript notes on it, and is in the English language.

Mr. Dodd, you had better look at it.

MR. DODD: All right, Sir.

I believe it would become Exhibit USA-851; I think that is the next number in sequence.

THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit USA-851; very well.

MR. DODD: I might say I think there is one question that might be helpful to the Tribunal with respect to this affidavit.

Herr Puhl, you personally typed up a large part of this affidavit yourself, did you not, or wrote it up, or dictated it?

PUHL: A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it accordingly.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment; and then signed it after you had altered it?

[The witness nodded assent.]

THE PRESIDENT: Do not nod; please answer. You said, “A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it.” And I ask you, did you then sign it?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: And did you also initial those places that you altered on the original? Did you not put your initials in each place that you wanted to make a change?

Isn’t that so?

PUHL: No; we copied it again, it was completely rewritten...

MR. DODD: I know you copied it anew. Did you not mark the places that you wanted changed and say how you wanted it changed? You did, did you not?

PUHL: Yes; but that is of minor importance; for instance, the word for “Reichsbank” was changed to “Gold Discount Bank,” and there were similar editorial changes.

MR. DODD: Well, I thought it might be helpful to the Tribunal to know that it was rewritten and initialed.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Francis Biddle, Member for the United States): Mr. Witness, I want to ask you a few questions. The first you heard about these transactions was from the Defendant Funk, was it not?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did Funk tell you who had told him about them in the SS?

PUHL: Himmler.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Himmler had spoken to Funk about this? Who else, besides Himmler and Funk, was present when Funk talked to Himmler about this?

PUHL: That I do not know.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You do not know if Pohl was there also?

PUHL: That I cannot say but I can say that from the very beginning the name of the Minister of Finance was mentioned in this connection. But whether he was personally present, I do not know.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did Funk say to you what Himmler said to him?

PUHL: He asked that the facilities of the Reichsbank be placed at the disposal of the SS for this purpose.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Then shortly after that, you took the matter up at the meeting of the Board of Directors?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Was Funk at that meeting?

PUHL: No, he was not.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you say to the Board of Directors?

PUHL: I reported to the Directorate briefly on the transaction.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you say to them?

PUHL: In a few words I described my conversation with Herr Funk and my conversation with Herr Pohl, and I confirmed the fact that the Reichsbank would take the valuables of the SS into their vaults.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And then did the Board of Directors approve the action?

PUHL: Yes; there was no objection.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Now, the defendant Funk said to you that these objects had come “from the East,” did he not?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you understand that he meant by that phrase, “from the East”?

PUHL: Principally Poland, occupied Poland. But some Russian territories might also have been included in that phrase.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You knew that this was confiscated property, I presume?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Now, you told Pohl that the Bank would perform certain services in handling the property, did you not?

PUHL: Pohl asked me to place the good services of the Bank at the disposal of his men. That I agreed to do.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And did those services include arranging the property, putting it in sacks and describing it?

PUHL: That was not talked about.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): I did not ask you whether it was talked about. I asked you whether the services included arranging the property and putting it in different kinds of containers and sacks. Is that what you did?

PUHL: Yes, that was a matter for the decision of the treasury directors; if they considered it necessary, they could do it.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Was that done?

PUHL: That I cannot know. It is a treasury matter.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I put two more questions, two very brief questions?

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter.

DR. SAUTER: The one question, Witness, is this: You have been repeatedly asked here who has talked to you during the past few days.

PUHL: Here in Nuremberg?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, in Nuremberg. You know that several members of the Prosecution have discussed this with you during the last few days. I should like to establish here: Have I talked to you?

PUHL: No, I am seeing you for the first time in my life today.

DR. SAUTER: I just wanted to establish this, for the sake of correctness. And the second question is this—actually you have already confirmed this, but after the charge of the Prosecution I should like to hear it from you again—in all these negotiations or in the documents which have been submitted and which you have of course read, was mention ever made of the fact that these things came from concentration camps?

PUHL: The word “concentration camp” was used neither during the conversation with Herr Funk nor during the conversation with Herr Pohl.

DR. SAUTER: And Herr Funk did not give you an indication of that sort, either.

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Then I have no further questions, Mr. President; thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire, and the Tribunal will adjourn.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you did offer 3947-PS as an exhibit, did you not?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir, I did, as Exhibit USA-850, I believe it was.

THE PRESIDENT: 850, was it? Yes, and then that copy of the Puhl affidavit was USA-851?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir, that is right. I did not offer the other affidavit because we discovered it wasn’t sworn to as yet. I propose to do so and with your permission I delay the date. I have that witness here. This thing can’t go on interminably, and I don’t want to drag it on; but I would like to offer it as an affidavit when I can have him swear to it, and if there is going to be any demand for him I might respectfully suggest that Dr. Sauter states it now. He is not a prisoner, Mr. President, the witness Thoms. He is a free man in this country.

THE PRESIDENT: You are suggesting that he should be called now?

MR. DODD: If he is going to be called, I would suggest that it be done soon.

THE PRESIDENT: If he wants to cross-examine him he should be called now.

MR. DODD: I should be glad to have him now.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I am representing Attorney Dr. Kauffmann for the Defendant Göring. The Defendant Göring asked me to put two questions to the witness Puhl during his re-examination. The questions would probably be connected with the document which the Prosecution brought up in cross-examination of the witness Puhl, Document 3947-PS, of which the Prosecution read Page 2, Paragraph 3, beginning, “The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, Delegate for the Four Year Plan...”

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, Dr. Seidl. If you want to put questions to the witness Puhl on behalf of the Defendant Göring you can do so and Puhl will be recalled for that purpose.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the difficulty consists of something else. The Defendant Göring says, and I think rightly, that he can put his questions to the witness with reason only if he has an opportunity of seeing the document to which the Prosecution referred. Therefore, during the cross-examination I wanted to have the guard pass on Document 3947-PS to Defendant Göring. That was refused, however, on the grounds that, by an order of the Commandant of the Prison, during the proceedings documents can no longer be handed to those defendants whose cases have already been concluded.

THE PRESIDENT: Although the document was read over the earphones the Defendant Göring and yourself shall certainly see the document, but the witness must be called during this sitting. You may see the document and the Defendant Göring may see the document, but the witness must be recalled for any questions at once.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, only excerpts were read from the document. In my opinion the Defendant Göring is right in saying: If I am to ask a sensible question I must know the whole document. I think there are only two possibilities; either the Prosecution must refrain from presenting new material during cross-examination of the defendants whose cases are said to have already been concluded, or the defendant must be given the opportunity of seeing this evidence...

THE PRESIDENT: Don’t go too fast!

DR. SEIDL: ...or the defendant must be given the opportunity of seeing the evidence newly introduced, and when only excerpts of a document are read, he must have access to the whole document.

THE PRESIDENT: The document is only just over one page and there is only one paragraph in it which refers to Göring. And that paragraph has already been read. When I say one page, it is just one page of this English copy. I think you have a German translation before you.

DR. SEIDL: I have 3½ pages.

THE PRESIDENT: There is only one paragraph which relates to Göring.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, it is only a question of whether in the main proceedings I may give this photostat copy to the Defendant Göring or not. If this is possible, and...

THE PRESIDENT: You are going too fast!

DR. SEIDL: ...and I see no reason why it should not be possible, then I will shortly be able to ask the witness Puhl any question that may be necessary; but I think the defendant is right in saying that he would like to see the entire contents of a document from which only excerpts have been read.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I might be a little bit helpful. I would like to point out that Dr. Seidl had the document for 10 minutes anyway during the recess; and also I would like to point out that we did not preclude him, as members of the Prosecution, from having it. It is a security measure altogether.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps it will satisfy you, Dr. Seidl, if we order that the witness Puhl be recalled at 2 o’clock for Dr. Seidl to put any questions to him that you wish. And of course he would have the document. He has got the document now, and of course Göring will have the document, too.

DR. SEIDL: That is the difficulty, Mr. President. I have the document, but on account of the existing instructions I cannot hand it to the Defendant Göring.

THE PRESIDENT: You can give the document to Göring now.

DR. SEIDL: I am not allowed to do that.

THE PRESIDENT: I am telling you to do it, and they will let you do it.

Dr. Sauter, do you wish to cross-examine the man who has made a statement? Do you wish to cross-examine Thoms?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, if I may.

THE PRESIDENT: You do?

DR. SAUTER: Yes. Mr. President, may I comment on what Dr. Seidl has just said? It isn’t only a question concerning this one document which Dr. Seidl just wanted to give to the Defendant Göring, but it is a general question of whether during the session a defense counsel is authorized to hand to a defendant documents which have been submitted. Hitherto this has been allowed, but now the security ruling is that defendants whose cases have been completed for the present may no longer be given any documents in the courtroom by their defense counsel. Defense Counsel feel that this is an unfair ruling, since, as the case of Göring shows, it can very easily happen that a defendant is in some way involved in a later case. And the request which we now direct to you and to the Court is that Defense Counsel should again be permitted to give the defendants documents here during the session, even if the case of the defendant in question has already been concluded. That is what Dr. Seidl wanted to ask you.

Mr. President, may I say something else?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Sauter? You wanted to say something more to me?

DR. SAUTER: May I also point out the following: In the interrogation room down in the prison we have so far not been allowed to hand any documents to the prisoners with whom we were speaking. Thus, if I want to discuss a document with my client, I have to read the whole of it to him. And when 10, 12, or 15 defense counsel are down there in the evening, it is almost...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal is of the opinion that any document which is handed to the defendants’ counsel may be handed to the defendants themselves by the counsel and that it does not make any difference that a particular defendant’s case has been closed with reference to that rule.

DR. SAUTER: We are very grateful to you, Mr. President, and we hope that your ruling will not in practice encounter any difficulties.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then now, you want to cross-examine Thoms?

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Is Thoms here? Can he be brought here at once?

MR. DODD: He is on his way—he is probably right outside the door.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, would the Marshal see if he is available.

MR. DODD: I have not had time, Mr. President, to have the affidavit sworn to because I have not seen the man.

THE PRESIDENT: No, but as far as his cross-examination is concerned, he can be put under oath here.

MARSHAL: No, Sir, he is not here yet.

MR. DODD: He is on his way.

THE PRESIDENT: He is not available.

MR. DODD: He is on his way. He was in Lieutenant Meltzer’s office a minute ago and he went out to get him.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, he can be called then at 2 o’clock after the other witness.

Now, Dr. Siemers, would you be ready?

DR. SIEMERS: Your Honors, may I say, first of all, how I intend to proceed in the presentation of my case?

In accordance with the suggestion of the Court, I should like to call Raeder as a witness in connection with all the documents which the Prosecution has submitted against him. I have given all these documents to Raeder so that he will have them before him on the witness stand, and no time will be lost by handing him each one individually. The British Delegation has kindly compiled the documents which were not included in the Raeder Document Book, in a new Document Book 10a. I assume that this document book is in the possession of the Tribunal.

Thus, to facilitate matters, I shall give the page number of the English Document Book 10a or the English Document Book 10 in the case of each document.

At the same time, if the Tribunal agrees, I intend already now to submit from my own document books those documents which in each case are connected with the matter under discussion. Thank you.

May I then ask that Admiral Raeder be called to the witness stand.

[The Defendant Raeder took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name.

ERICH RAEDER (Defendant): Erich Raeder.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral Raeder, may I ask you first to tell the Tribunal briefly about your past and your professional career?

RAEDER: I was born in 1876 in Wandsbek near Hamburg. I joined the Navy in 1894 and became an officer in 1897. Then normal promotion: two years at the naval academy; in each year, three months leave to study languages; in Russia during the Russo-Japanese War. 1906 to 1908 in the Reich Navy Office, in Von Tirpitz’ Intelligence Division, responsible for the foreign press and the publications Marine Rundschau and Nautikus.

1910 to 1912, Navigation Officer on the Imperial Yacht Hohenzollern. 1912 to the beginning of 1918, First Chief Naval Staff Officer and Chief of Staff to Admiral Hipper who was in command of the battle cruisers.

After the first World War in the Admiralty, as Chief of the Central Division with Admiral Von Trotha. Then two years of writing at the naval archives: history of naval war. From 1922 to 1924, with the rank of Rear Admiral, Inspector of Training and Education in the Navy. 1925 to 1928, as Vice Admiral, chief of the Baltic naval station at Kiel.

On 1 October 1928 Reich President Von Hindenburg named me Chief of the Navy Command in Berlin, at the suggestion of Reich Minister of Defense, Gröner.

In 1935 I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, and on 1 April 1939 Grossadmiral.

On 30 January 1943 resigned as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy; I received the title of Admiral Inspector of the Navy, but remained without any official duties.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to come back to one point. You said that in 1935 you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. This was only, if I am right, a new name?

RAEDER: It was only a new name.

DR. SIEMERS: So you were head of the Navy from 1928 to 1943?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: After the Versailles Treaty Germany had an army of only 100,000 men, and a navy of 15,000 men, with officers. In relation to the size of the Reich, the Wehrmacht was thus extremely small.

Was Germany in the twenties in a position to defend herself with this small Wehrmacht against possible attacks by neighboring states, and with what dangers did Germany have to reckon in the twenties?

RAEDER: In my opinion, Germany was not at all in a position to defend herself effectively against attacks, even of the smallest states, since she had no modern weapons; the surrounding states, Poland in particular, were equipped with the most modern weapons, while even the modern fortifications had been taken away from Germany. The danger which Germany constantly faced in the twenties was...

DR. SIEMERS: One moment. Now continue, please.

RAEDER: The danger which Germany constantly faced in the twenties was a Polish attack on East Prussia with the object of severing this territory, already cut off from the rest of Germany by the Corridor, and occupying it. The danger was especially clear to Germany, because at that time Vilna was occupied by the Poles, in the midst of peace with Lithuania; and Lithuania took away the Memel area. In the south, Fiume was also taken away, without objection being raised by the League of Nations or anyone else. It was, however, quite clear to the German Government of those days that one thing which could not be allowed to happen to Germany during that time of her weakness was the occupation of East Prussia and its separation from the Reich. Our efforts were therefore aimed at preparing ourselves to oppose a Polish invasion of East Prussia with all possible means.

DR. SIEMERS: You said that it was feared that such an invasion might take place. Did not several border incidents actually occur in the twenties?

RAEDER: Yes, indeed.

DR. SIEMERS: Is it true that these dangers were recognized, not only by you and by military circles, but also by the governments in the twenties, especially by the Social Democrats and by Stresemann?

RAEDER: Yes. I already said that the government, too, realized that such an invasion could not be allowed to happen.

DR. SIEMERS: Now, the Prosecution has accused you of conduct contrary to international law and contrary to existing treaties, even in the time before Hitler.

On 1 October 1928 you became Chief of the Navy Command, and thus rose to the highest position in the German Navy. Did you, in view of the dangers you have described, use all your power to build up the German Navy within the framework of the Versailles Treaty, particularly with the object of protecting East Prussia?

RAEDER: Yes, I exerted all my strength for the reconstruction of the Navy, and I came to consider this as my life work. In all stages of this period of naval reconstruction, I met with great difficulties; and as a result, I had to battle in one way or another constantly throughout those years in order to put this reconstruction into effect. Perhaps I became rather one-sided, since this fight for the reconstruction of the Navy filled all my time and prevented me from taking part in any matters not directly concerned with it. In addition to material reconstruction, I put every effort into the formation of a competent officer corps and well-trained, especially well-disciplined, crews.

Admiral Dönitz has already commented on the result of this training of our men and officers, and I should like only to confirm that these German naval men earned full recognition in peacetime, both at home and abroad, for their dignified and good behavior and their discipline; and also during the war, when they fought to the end in an exemplary manner, in complete unity, with irreproachable battle ethics, and, in general, did not participate in any kind of atrocities. Also in the occupied areas to which they came, in Norway for instance, they earned full approval of the population for their good and dignified conduct.

DR. SIEMERS: Since for fifteen years you were head of the Navy and reconstructed it in those years, can it be said that as chief of the Navy you are responsible for everything that happened in connection with this reconstruction?

RAEDER: I am fully responsible for it.

DR. SIEMERS: If I am correct, the only qualification would be the date 1 October 1928.

RAEDER: As regards the material rebuilding.

DR. SIEMERS: Who were your superiors, as regards the reconstruction of the Navy? You could not, of course, act with complete independence.

RAEDER: I was subordinate, firstly, to the Reichswehrminister and, through him, to the Reich Government, since I was not a member of the Reich Government; and secondly, I also had to obey the Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht in these matters. From 1925 to 1934 the Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht was Reich President Field Marshal Von Hindenburg, and after his death on 1 August 1934, Adolf Hitler.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, in this connection may I submit Exhibit Number Raeder-3, a short excerpt from the Constitution of the German Reich. It is Number Raeder-3, in Document Book 1 on Page 9. Article 47 reads:

“The Reich President has the supreme command of all the Armed Forces of the Reich.”

I also submit the Reich Defense Law, as Exhibit Number Raeder-4, Document Book 1, Page 11. I have to return to it later, but now I refer to Article 8 of the Reich Defense Law, which reads as follows:

“The command is exclusively in the hands of the lawful superior...

“The Reich President is the Commander-in-Chief of all Armed Forces. Under him, the Reich Minister for Defense has authoritative powers over all the Armed Forces. At the head of the Reich Army is a General, as Chief of the Army Command; at the head of the Reich Navy, an Admiral, as Chief of the Naval Command.”

These paragraphs remained in full effect under the National Socialist regime. I refer to them only because they confirm what the witness has said. In regard to naval reconstruction, he was thus third in authority: Reich President, Reich Minister of Defense, and then the head of the branches of the Wehrmacht.

Admiral, the Prosecution accuses you of building up the Navy: First, in violation of the Versailles Treaty; secondly, behind the back of the Reichstag and the Reich Government; and thirdly, with the intention of waging aggressive wars.

I should like to ask you now whether the reconstruction of the Navy was undertaken for aggressive or defensive purposes. Make a chronological distinction, however, and speak first about the period overshadowed by the Versailles Treaty, that is, from 1928 until the Naval Agreement with England on 18 June 1935.

My question is: Did the reconstruction of the Navy in this period take place for purposes of aggression as the Prosecution has asserted?

RAEDER: The reconstruction of the Navy did not in any respect take place for the purposes of aggressive war. No doubt it constituted some evasion of the Versailles Treaty. Before I go into details, I should like to ask permission to read a few short quotations from a speech which I made in 1928 in Kiel and Stralsund, the two largest garrisons of my naval station. This speech was delivered before the public during a week devoted to an historical anniversary; and when I took up my duties in Berlin, it was handed as my program to Minister Severing, who regarded me with some suspicion at that time. That is the...

DR. SIEMERS: One moment. Raeder’s statements in the year 1928 show his attitude of that time much more clearly than his present recollections; and for that reason I think the Tribunal will agree that I submit this speech as Exhibit Number Raeder-6, Document Book 1, Page 15. The speech itself begins on Page 17. I shall read...

THE PRESIDENT: Yes?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, it would take five or ten minutes, so may I ask whether this is a proper time to adjourn? I am willing to continue, however.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

Afternoon Session

DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, will you please grant permission for the Defendant Sauckel to be absent from the courtroom from the sessions of the 16th to the 18th inclusive so that he may prepare his defense?

THE PRESIDENT: Be absent in order to prepare his defense? Yes, certainly.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I would like to suggest that, before the witness Puhl is recalled, the witness Thoms be called. I think it will save some of the Tribunal’s time. I think, from what I know of the prospective testimony, there may be questions that will arise in the mind of the Tribunal which it would like to put to the witness Puhl after having heard the witness Thoms.

And also I would ask, so as to be absolutely fair to all concerned, that the witness Puhl be in the courtroom when the witness Thoms testifies. I think he should have that opportunity.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you any objections, Dr. Sauter?

DR. SAUTER: No, I have no objections.

MR. DODD: May we call the witness Thoms?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, call Thoms, and have Puhl somewhere in the courtroom where he can hear.

[The witness Thoms took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

ALBERT THOMS (Witness): Albert Thoms.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I am aware that he has been called for cross-examination. However, there are one or two matters, now material, which were not included in the affidavit, and to save time I would like to bring those out before the cross-examination takes place.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

MR. DODD: Herr Thoms, you executed a statement on the 8th day of May 1946. Is that so?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: And you signed it?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: And everything in it was true?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: And is true now, of course?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: I wish you would just look at it for the purposes of certainty and identify it now. Is that the statement that you signed, Herr Thoms?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: All right. Now, I have one or two questions to ask you about it. I wish to offer it, Mr. President, as Exhibit USA-852. You know this gentleman sitting to your left, do you not?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: That is Mr. Puhl, is it not?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: He was the Vice President of the Reichsbank when you were employed there.

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now, did you ever have a conversation with Herr Puhl about any special deposit which was coming to the Reichsbank and about which you should maintain the utmost secrecy?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: Tell us when that conversation took place, what was said, and if anyone else was present at the time.

THOMS: This conversation took place in the summer of 1942. I was called to Vice President Puhl’s office by Herr Frommknecht, a Treasury official. Herr Frommknecht took me to Herr Puhl, and there Herr Puhl disclosed the fact that a special transaction with the office of the Reichsführer-SS was to be undertaken. Do you want me to explain it in detail?

MR. DODD: Tell us everything that he said to you.

THOMS: Herr Puhl told me that the affair was to be kept absolutely secret and confidential. Not only would articles be delivered which would be automatically taken over in the ordinary course of business of the Reichsbank, but also the disposal of jewelry and other articles would have to be effected. Upon my objection that we had no expert men for such matters, he replied that we would have to find a way to convert these articles. First I made the suggestion that these special articles should then be sent to the Reich Main Treasury—that is, the Main Treasury of the Reich Government—which also held all booty of the Army. However, Herr Puhl thought that this matter should not go through the Reich Main Treasury, but should be handled by the Reichsbank in some other way. Thereupon I suggested that these articles could be sent to the Municipal Pawnbroker’s Office in Berlin, exactly as the deliveries from the confiscated Jewish property had been dealt with before. Herr Puhl agreed to this suggestion.

MR. DODD: Now, when did the first of these shipments arrive?

THOMS: The first delivery came to the Reichsbank during the month of August, as far as I can remember.

MR. DODD: 1942?

THOMS: 1942.

MR. DODD: Does the name Melmer mean anything to you?

THOMS: Melmer was the name of the SS man who subsequently brought these valuables to the Reichsbank. Under this code word all deliveries of the SS were later entered in the books of the bank.

MR. DODD: Did you ever mention the name or the word “Melmer” to Puhl, and did he ever mention it to you?

THOMS: The name “Melmer” was not mentioned by Vice President Puhl to me, but was mentioned by me to Vice President Puhl as I had to inform him about the start of the entire transaction and particularly about the carrying out of the transaction regarding the conversion of the valuables. In accordance with the suggestion of the office of the Reichsführer-SS, the money equivalent was transferred to the Reich Ministry of Finance into an account which was given the name “Max Heiliger.” I duly informed Vice President Puhl briefly about these facts.

MR. DODD: Did you ever tell Puhl the nature of the material that you were receiving in the SS shipments?

THOMS: After some months Vice President Puhl asked me how the “Melmer” affair was getting along. I explained to him that, contrary to the expectation that there would really be very few deliveries, deliveries were increasing and that apart from gold and silver coins they contained particularly a great deal of jewelry, gold rings, wedding rings, gold and silver fragments, dental gold, and all sorts of gold and silver articles.

MR. DODD: What did he say when you told him there were jewels and silver and dental gold and other articles?

THOMS: May I first of all add a few things. I drew his attention especially to the fact that on one occasion something like 12 kilograms of pearls had been collected and that I had never before seen such an unusual amount in all my life.

MR. DODD; Wait a minute! What was it?

THOMS: They were pearls and pearl necklaces.

MR. DODD: Did you also tell him you were receiving a quantity of eyeglass rims?

THOMS: I cannot swear to that at the moment, but I described the general character of these deliveries to him. Therefore, I think, I probably used “spectacles,” and similar words; but I would not like to state it on my oath.

MR. DODD: Was Puhl ever in the vaults when this material was being looked through?

THOMS: On several occasions he visited the strong-rooms of the bank to inspect the gold stored there and particularly to inform himself about the type of stores. The deliveries of the “Melmer” transactions were kept in a special part of one of the main safes, so that on those occasions Herr Puhl must also have seen the boxes and sacks full of those deliveries. Nearby in the corridor of the vault the articles of the “Melmer” deliveries were being dealt with.

I am firmly convinced that when he walked through the strong-rooms, Herr Puhl must have seen these objects, as they were lying quite openly on the table and everyone who visited the strong-room could see them.

MR. DODD: There were about 25 or 30 people that sorted this stuff out, were there not, before it was shipped away for melting and for sale in the pawnshops?

THOMS: I would say that there were not 25 to 30 people who sorted these things—in the course of a day perhaps 25 to 30 people would visit the strong-rooms to carry out some official business there. For this particular business some four or five officials were occupied in sorting out the things, getting them ready.

MR. DODD: And everyone under your supervision was sworn to secrecy? They didn’t talk about this business; they were forbidden to do so, were they not?

THOMS: There were strict instructions in the bank that secret matters must not be discussed, not even with a colleague of one’s own department, if that colleague did not himself also work at the same job. So that...

MR. DODD: Well, this was a super-secret matter, wasn’t it? It wasn’t the ordinary secrecy that attended. Wasn’t there a special secrecy surrounding these deliveries?

THOMS: Quite right. It was quite an exceptional affair and it had to be kept especially secret. I would say that it went beyond the limits of top secrecy. For even I had been strictly forbidden to talk to anybody about it; and I said at the time when I left Vice President Puhl, after the first conversation, that I would however inform the leading officials in the Treasury, because after all my superiors must be informed about this business.

MR. DODD: Was there a report made about these “Melmer” deposits to the Directorate?

THOMS: No. The matter was treated as a verbal agreement. It was after all an exceptional case and only one account was kept of the deliveries made, which was called the “Melmer account.” This account was transmitted by the head cashier’s office to the foreign exchange department which, in turn, had to take further steps with the Directorate of the Reichsbank.

MR. DODD: Well, the Directorate had to approve the handling of this type of thing, did it not? You weren’t allowed to handle materials like this without the approval of the bank Directorate?

THOMS: In matters concerning gold particularly instructions had to be given and approved respectively by the Board of Directors. I could therefore never act independently. Generally the instructions were given to the Treasury in writing and they were signed by at least two officials and one member of the Board of Directors. So that it was quite unique that in this case instructions were given in a verbal form.

MR. DODD: By the way, Herr Thoms, you have seen the film this noontime? We have shown you a film, haven’t we?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: After seeing that film, are you able to say whether or not that represents a fair representation of the appearance of some of the shipments that were received by the Reichsbank from the SS?

THOMS: I may say that this film and the pictures which I have seen in it were typical of the “Melmer” deliveries. Perhaps I should qualify that by saying that the quantities shown in this film were in excess of the quantity of dental gold and particularly jewelry which came with the first deliveries. Only later did these amounts increase, so that the quantities which we have seen in this film had actually not yet been seen by the Reichsbank because they were contained in boxes or trunks which until then had remained locked. But generally the material which I have seen in that film is typical of the “Melmer” deliveries.

MR. DODD: All right, sir. Now, approximately—I don’t expect a completely accurate answer, but approximately how many shipments did you receive of this stuff from the SS?

THOMS: As nearly as I can remember at the moment, there must have been more than 70 deliveries, possibly 76 or 77. I can’t tell you exactly at the moment, but that must be about the right figure.

MR. DODD: Very well, I have no further questions.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, what is your occupation?

THOMS: A councillor of the Reichsbank.

DR. SAUTER: Where do you live?

THOMS: Berlin-Steglitz. Then I—after my home was bombed I lived at Potsdam, Neu-Fahrland.

DR. SAUTER: Did you volunteer for the examination of the Prosecution or how did you happen to be interrogated...

THOMS: I was...

DR. SAUTER: Please, will you wait until I have finished my question so that the interpreters can keep up with us? Will you please make a pause between question and answer.

THOMS: I was ordered here.

DR. SAUTER: By whom?

THOMS: Probably by the Prosecution.

DR. SAUTER: Are you a free man?

THOMS: Yes, I am free.

DR. SAUTER: Did you receive the summons in writing?

THOMS: No. I was asked orally yesterday in Frankfurt to come to Nuremberg.

DR. SAUTER: Frankfurt? Are you living in Frankfurt at the moment?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Herr Thoms, where were you living on 8 May? That is a week ago today?

THOMS: On 8 May of this year?

DR. SAUTER: You are Herr Thoms, aren’t you?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, on 8 May, a week ago today.

THOMS: In Frankfurt.

DR. SAUTER: You were interrogated there, weren’t you?

THOMS: That is quite right. I was interrogated at Frankfurt.

DR. SAUTER: That is the affidavit which the Prosecutor has just put to you?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: How did you come to make the affidavit? Did you volunteer as a witness, or how did this happen?

THOMS: I want to point out to you that already a year ago when I was working at Frankfurt, I voluntarily gave the American offices the details of the transactions which were known to me in the matter of the gold of the Reichsbank.

DR. SAUTER: I see. So last year you already offered yourself as a witness?

THOMS: I wouldn’t say as a witness in this matter. I merely placed myself at their disposal for the clarification of Reichsbank affairs for American purposes.

DR. SAUTER: Yes. Did you ever discuss this matter with the President of the Reichsbank, Funk?

THOMS: No. During my term of service, I never had an opportunity of talking to Minister Funk.

DR. SAUTER: Have you any positive knowledge, perhaps from some other source, as to whether President of the Reichsbank Funk had exact knowledge of these things, or is that also unknown to you?

THOMS: I cannot say anything about that either, because these matters happened on a higher level, which I could not judge.

DR. SAUTER: Then I would be interested in hearing something about this deposit, or whatever you call it, which was under the name “Melmer”?

THOMS: I want to point out that this was not a deposit, but that these were deliveries which were delivered under the name “Melmer.” Insofar as the transactions were those which the Reichsbank had to deal with, the Reichsbank took over these articles directly, and insofar as it was a question of matters not pertaining to the bank, the Reichsbank to a certain extent was the trustee for the conversion of these things.

DR. SAUTER: More slowly, more slowly. Why was this matter, whether we call it a deposit or anything else, not dealt with under the name “SS,” why was it given the name “Melmer”? Did you ask anybody about that, Witness?

THOMS: I have already mentioned at the beginning of the examination that this was a particularly secret affair in connection with which the name of the depositor was not to appear. In this case, therefore, it was Vice President Puhl who had to decide the way this affair was to be dealt with; and he desired and ordered this.

DR. SAUTER: Did only officials of the Reichsbank come to the strong-room where these things were kept, or did other persons also have access to it, for instance, people who had a safe in the strong-room?

THOMS: The Reichsbank did not have any private depositors, that is to say, we did not have any locked deposits which belonged to customers of the Reichsbank—at least not in those vaults. Deposits from private customers were in another vault so that there was no contact between the deposits of the bank and the deposits of the customers.

DR. SAUTER: But quite a number of officials went down there. You have already said that.

There is one thing I am not clear about: On the one hand, you have told us that these articles were lying about openly on tables so that everybody could see them; and on the other hand, you said previously towards the end of your statement that these things were kept in locked boxes and trunks. How does that tally?

THOMS: I have stated that these things were delivered in closed boxes and trunks, and stored in them. When from time to time the deliveries were inventoried, the delivery which was to be dealt with naturally had to be opened and the contents counted, examined, and re-weighed. That, of course, could only be done by spreading out the contents, counting them, checking the weight, and then locking them in new containers.

DR. SAUTER: Did you perhaps on your own initiative tell Herr Puhl—after all, you were a bank councillor, therefore also a senior official—that you had misgivings about the whole business? Please think over the question and give your answer very carefully, because you are under oath.

THOMS: First of all, I have to say that I belonged to the group of officials of middle rank, but that is just in passing. Then, of course—or let me put it this way—when an official has worked for thirty years or longer for a concern and if throughout the long years of his career he has always had the feeling that the directors were irreproachable, then, I believe, he could have no misgivings if in a special case he is instructed to keep silent about a certain transaction. He would not object to carrying out this order. I have already said that the term “booty” was not unknown to us officials in the Reichsbank, because there was the order that all booty goods which came in from the Army were to be delivered directly to the Treasury, that is the Treasury of the Reich Government; and we in the Bank thought, of course, that the booty from the SS troops was to go through the Reichsbank. An official of the Reichsbank cannot very well oppose such an order. If the Directors of the Bank give him instructions, then he has to carry them out, because of the oath which he has sworn.

DR. SAUTER: So that, Witness, if I understand you correctly, you are telling us that at the beginning, at any rate, you considered that the matter was in order, and there was nothing wrong with it?

THOMS: At the beginning? As a matter of fact, I considered it correct that it should be carried right through.

DR. SAUTER: Did you ever have any doubts that this might be, let us say, criminal?

THOMS: Certainly I would have had doubts if I had had the knowledge and experience then which I have today.

DR. SAUTER: That is the same with everyone.

THOMS: Yes, quite right. As far as that is concerned, I had to suppress any doubts; I would not admit any doubts, because the affair was not known only to me, it was known to the Reichsbank Directorate and in the administration office of the Main Treasury. The valuables in the strong-room were checked every night by a deputy director of the Main Treasury, so that I was responsible only for the technical carrying out of this business; and the responsibility for the correctness of this transaction was not within my competence.

DR. SAUTER: I do not know about the responsibility but, Witness, I asked you, did you ever have any doubts, and at what precise moment did you consider the whole affair criminal? Did you consider it criminal?

THOMS: We assumed that these were goods which the SS—after they had partly burned down towns in the East, particularly in the battle for Warsaw—we thought that afterwards they captured this booty in the houses and then delivered this booty to our Bank.

DR. SAUTER: As booty?

THOMS: Yes. If a military department delivers booty goods it does not follow that an official who is entrusted with the handling of these things would have to consider these deliveries as being criminal.

DR. SAUTER: When taking over these articles, did you think, or did Vice President Puhl tell you, or at least hint to you, that these gold articles might have been taken from victims in the concentration camps?

THOMS: No.

DR. SAUTER: You did not think of that, did you?

THOMS: No.

DR. SAUTER: Not at all?

THOMS: Once we saw the name “Auschwitz,” and another time the name “Lublin,” on some slips of paper which we found. I said that in connection with Lublin we found this inscription on some packets of bank notes which came in to be dealt with and which were then returned to the Polish Bank to be cashed. Strangely enough, the same packets came back later after they had been dealt with by the bank. Consequently, here the explanation was that these could not be deliveries from a concentration camp, since they had come to us through official bank channels. As regards the camp at Auschwitz—well, I cannot say today with what sort of deliveries these slips of paper were found, but it is possible that they were slips attached to some notes, and perhaps they may have been deliveries of foreign bank notes, from the concentration camps. But then there were arrangements according to which prisoners of war, or prisoners, could exchange their notes for other money in the camp, so that such deliveries could have been made through legal channels.

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, then, the meaning of what you have just told us is that you still considered the matter legal or lawful even when in 1943 you saw the inscription “Auschwitz” and “Lublin” on some items. Even then you considered the matter legal, didn’t you?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Well, then, why did you in your affidavit of 8 May 1946—it is true it is not a sworn affidavit—tell the story somewhat differently? Perhaps I can read the sentence to you...

THOMS: Please, do.

DR. SAUTER: ...and you can then tell me if I misunderstood you or whether the official took it down incorrectly. It says there, after first of all saying that you considered the matter to be legal:

“One of the first indications of the origin of these articles was when it was noticed that a packet of bills, presumably bonds...”

THOMS: No, they were bank notes.

DR. SAUTER: “...were stamped ‘Lublin.’”

THOMS: This occurred early in 1943.

DR. SAUTER: “Another indication was the fact that some articles bore the stamp ‘Auschwitz.’ We all knew these places were the sites of concentration camps. In connection with the tenth delivery in November 1942”—that is, previously—“gold teeth appeared, and the quantity of gold teeth grew to an unusual extent.”

So much for the quotation from your unsworn statement of 8 May 1946. Now, will you please tell us: Does that mean the same as you said a little earlier, or does it mean something different in your opinion?

THOMS: That in my opinion tallies with my statement. We could not assume that deliveries which came through the concentration camp had to be absolutely illegal. We only observed that gradually these deliveries became larger. A delivery of notes from a concentration camp need not be illegal because of this. It might have been an official calling-in, especially as we did not know the regulations applicable to concentration camps. It would be perfectly possible that these people had the right to sell the articles in their possession or give them in payment.

DR. SAUTER: The dollars which you have also seen in that film would hardly be sold by anybody.

THOMS: May I point out to you that I was not of the opinion that these bank notes necessarily came from concentration camps. I merely said that the word “Lublin” was on some of the packets of bank notes. That might have pointed to their having come from a concentration camp; but it did not necessarily mean that these particular notes came from that concentration camp, and the same applies to “Auschwitz.” The name “Auschwitz” cropped up. There may have been a certain suspicion, but we had not any proof, and we did not feel that we were in any way called upon to object to these deliveries of the SS.

DR. SAUTER: Consequently, Witness, apparently because you put this construction on it, you did not use the occasion to make a report to Vice President Puhl or the Directorate, or to voice any doubts; you did not have any cause for that?

THOMS: I called Vice President Puhl’s attention to the composition of these deliveries as early as a few months after the arrival of the first delivery. Therefore, the general character of these deliveries was known to Herr Puhl. He knew the contents of the deliveries.

DR. SAUTER: But you told us earlier that the character of these deliveries did not seem peculiar to you. You considered that it was booty. And now you want to say that you called Vice President Puhl’s attention to it and that he must have noticed something peculiar.

THOMS: I did not say that. I did not say that Herr Puhl must have noticed something peculiar. I merely said that, if any objections were to be raised, then they would have to come from Herr Puhl, since he was as well aware of the character of these deliveries as I was. And, if there was any suspicion, then Herr Puhl’s suspicion would probably have been aroused more strongly than mine.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, you told us earlier that special secrecy was ordered in this connection, but at the same time you mentioned that quite apart from this SS affair, there were also other business matters which apparently had to be handled with special secrecy. Is that true?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You need not give us any names, but I would only like to know what the other affairs were?

THOMS: These are matters which had to do with the conduct of the war. There were transactions in gold, and perhaps also in foreign currency, et cetera.

DR. SAUTER: They were not criminal affairs, therefore?

THOMS: No, not criminal.

DR. SAUTER: Then, Witness...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that this is getting too far away from the point really to ask him about other deliveries.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, but the question is already answered, Mr. President.

Witness, because of this secrecy in connection with the SS deliveries which reached the Reichsbank, I should be interested in knowing, insofar as they were realized by the Reichsbank, whether any accounts were rendered, as I assume to be the case from the documents before us?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: By your Main Treasury?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: To whom were these accounts sent?

THOMS: They were sent to the Reichsführer-SS office direct; that is to say, they were collected by Melmer directly from the bank.

DR. SAUTER: Did they not go to any other office?

THOMS: And then they were officially passed on to the Foreign Currency Department.

DR. SAUTER: To the Foreign Currency Department, that is, to a State Department?

THOMS: No, that is a department of the Reichsbank which in turn is the link with the Directorate.

DR. SAUTER: Were not these accounts also transmitted, or did they not go, to the Reich Ministry of Finance?

THOMS: The liaison man, Melmer, always received two accounts, that is, in duplicate. Whether the Reichsführer’s office sent one copy to the Reich Ministry of Finance, I do not know.

DR. SAUTER: Were these accounts really treated confidentially, that is, kept secret?

THOMS: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: For instance, the accounts with the Municipal Pawn Broker’s Office?

THOMS: In the account with the Municipal Pawn Broker’s Office the depositor was not named.

DR. SAUTER: What happened to these gold teeth?

THOMS: They were melted down by the Prussian State Mint. The gold was then refined and the fine gold was returned to the Reichsbank.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, you said earlier that at the beginning of 1943 certain articles had arrived stamped “Auschwitz.” I think you said at the beginning of 1943.

THOMS: Yes, but I cannot tell you the exact date now.

DR. SAUTER: You said “We all knew that there was a concentration camp there.” Did you really know that as early as the beginning of 1943, Witness?

THOMS: Naturally, now I can...

DR. SAUTER: Yes, now of course, we all know it. I am talking about the time at which this happened.

THOMS: I cannot say that for certain. I made that statement on the strength—I beg your pardon, that is, probably—these deliveries were probably not handled until as late as 1945 or 1944 in the late autumn. It is possible that something about Auschwitz had already leaked out.

DR. SAUTER: Now, you said under Number 14 of your statement that one of the first clues to the source of these articles—apparently meaning the concentration camps—was the fact that a parcel of paper was stamped “Lublin.” This was early in 1943. And another indication was the fact that some items bore the stamp “Auschwitz.” “We all knew”—I’ve already emphasized this before for a very good reason—“we all knew that these places were the sites of concentration camps.” That’s your statement, and I now repeat the question. Of course we all know it now; but did you, Herr Reichsbank Councillor, know at the beginning of 1943 that there was this huge concentration camp at Auschwitz?

THOMS: No. To that positive type of question I must say no, I did not know it, but...

THE PRESIDENT: He did not say anything about a huge concentration camp at Auschwitz.

DR. SAUTER: No, that was a rhetorical exaggeration of mine. I said that we knew from the Trial that there was a huge concentration camp there.

THE PRESIDENT: Did he know it? Did he know that there was a huge concentration camp in 1943? He has not said so.

THOMS: I can answer “no” to your question, but this is the point: I assume that this slip marked “Auschwitz” came from a delivery which was probably made in 1943, but was not dealt with until much later; and I made that statement when I was already in Frankfurt, so that the name “Auschwitz” was familiar to me. I admit that there may be an exaggeration insofar as I did retrospectively tell myself that that was a concentration camp, you see. But I know that at the time, somehow, our attention was drawn to the name “Auschwitz,” and I think we even asked a question about the connection; but we received no answer and we never asked again.

DR. SAUTER: Well then, Witness, I have one last question. The Prosecution has shown us the Document 3947-PS. I repeat, 3947-PS. Apparently this is the draft of a memorandum which some department in the Reichsbank seems to have prepared for the Directorate of the Reichsbank. It is dated 31 March 1944, and it contains the sentence on Page 2 which I shall read to you because it refers to Defendant Funk and to Defendant Göring. This is the sentence:

“The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, hereby informs the German Reichsbank, in a letter of 19 March 1944, copy of which is enclosed,”—incidentally, the copy is not here, at least I have not got it—“that the considerable amounts of gold and silver objects, jewels, and so forth, at the Main Trustee Office East should be delivered to the Reichsbank according to the order issued by Reich Minister Funk”—the defendant—“and Graf Schwerin-Krosigk, Reich Finance Minister. The conversion of these objects should be accomplished in the same way as the ‘Melmer’ deliveries.”

That is the end of my quotation.

Defendant Funk tells me, however, that he knew nothing about such instructions, and that such an agreement or such a letter was entirely unknown to him and that he did not know anything at all about the “Melmer” deliveries.

MR. DODD: I must object to the form of the question. I have objected before that it is a long story anticipating the answer to the question put to the witness. I think it is an unfair way to examine.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you know, do you not, that you are not entitled to give evidence yourself? You are not entitled to say what Funk told you, unless he has given the evidence.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, this is not one of our witnesses. This is a witness who has volunteered for the Prosecution.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, it is not a question of whose witness he is. You were stating what Funk told you, and you were not referring to anything that Funk had said in evidence, and you are not entitled to do that.

DR. SAUTER: As you were Reichsbankrat I should be interested to know whether you knew anything about these orders which are mentioned in the letter of 31 March 1944 from an office of the Reichsbank, and whether the Defendant Funk was concerned with this?

THOMS: I think I can remember that instructions actually did exist which stated that gold from the Main Trustee Office East should be delivered to the Reichsbank. I am not absolutely certain whether this sentence is from a note written by the Deputy Director of the Main Treasury, Herr Kropp, to the Directorate of the Reichsbank at the time. I am fairly certain that originally such instructions were actually given, but I want to point out that the Main Treasury through the Precious Metal Department was against accepting these valuables because technically they were not in a position permanently to assume responsibility for such considerable deliveries of miscellaneous articles. This instruction was cancelled later on through Herr Kropp’s intervention. The deliveries from the Main Trustee Office East to the Reichsbank, especially to the Main Treasury, were not undertaken. I believe, however, I am right in saying that originally instructions of the type which you have just described did exist.

DR. SAUTER: Did you see that instruction yourself?

THOMS: I think that in the files of the Precious Metals Department, which are in the hands of the American Government, there will be carbon copies of these instructions.

DR. SAUTER: Was that instruction signed by the Defendant Funk?

THOMS: That I cannot say.

DR. SAUTER: Or by some other office?

THOMS: I really cannot tell you at the moment, but I cannot assume that it is the case because if the text reads, “from the Finance Minister and Herr Funk,” then some other department must have signed.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

MR. DODD: May I ask one or two questions on re-direct examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

MR. DODD: Herr Thoms, there wasn’t any exaggeration about the fact that you did find a slip of paper with the word “Auschwitz” written on it among one of these shipments, was there?

THOMS: No. I found the note.

MR. DODD: Now, I suppose you found lots of things among these shipments with names written on them. There must have been something that made you remember “Auschwitz,” isn’t that so?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: Well, what was it?

THOMS: I must assume—I mean that I know from my recollection that there was some connection with a concentration camp, but I cannot say. I am of the opinion that it must have happened later. It is really...

MR. DODD: Well, I don’t care to press it. I just wanted to make perfectly clear to the Tribunal that you told us that you did remember “Auschwitz” and it had such a meaning for you that you remembered it as late as after the surrender of Germany. That is so, isn’t it?

THOMS: Yes.

MR. DODD: I have no further questions.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You said there were about 77 deliveries, is that right?

THOMS: Yes, there were over 70.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): How large were the deliveries? Were they in trucks?

THOMS: They varied in size. Generally they arrived in ordinary cars, but sometimes they arrived in trucks. It depended. When there were bank notes, for instance, the bulk was smaller and the weight was less. If it was silver or silver articles, then the weight was greater and a small lorry would bring it.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): There were several lorries, or trucks, in each delivery, usually?

THOMS: No, the deliveries were not so large as that. There was at the most one truck.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And one other question: Do I understand you to say that these articles were transferred to new containers?

THOMS: Yes, they were put into ordinary bags by the Reichsbank. The bags were labeled “Reichsbank.”

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Bags marked with the Reichsbank’s name on the bag?

THOMS: Yes, on which the word “Reichsbank” was written.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

[The witness Puhl took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Seidl, do you want to ask the witness Puhl a few questions?

Witness, you remember that you are still on oath?

PUHL: Yes, Sir.

DR. SEIDL: Witness, in connection with Document 3947-PS, USA-850, I have several questions to put to you.

You heard earlier when the witness Thoms was examined that this letter contains a paragraph which refers to Reich Marshal Göring and which is connected with the Main Trustee Office East. Is it true that this Main Trustee Office was an office which had been established by a Reich law and that its right to confiscate had also been specifically outlined by Reich law?

PUHL: I cannot answer the second part of your question without looking it up since I am not a legally trained man. The Main Trustee Office East was an officially established office—whether by a law or by a decree, is something I cannot tell you at the moment.

DR. SEIDL: To your knowledge, did the Main Trustee Office East have any connection with the SS Economic Administration headquarters, that is to say, with the office of Pohl?

PUHL: I have never observed that.

DR. SEIDL: Is it obviously out of the question, at least when you read the letter, that the Main Trustee Office East and its deliveries could in any way be connected with the “Melmer” action?

PUHL: That very probably is so, yes.

DR. SEIDL: You mean there was no connection?

PUHL: That there was no connection.

DR. SEIDL: You mentioned this morning that among the business transactions which the Reichsbank handled very unwillingly were those with the Customs Investigation and the Currency Control Offices. The last part of this paragraph which refers to the Defendant Göring contains a sentence which refers to the conversion of objects of a similar type which were taken from the occupied western territories. Is it true that, particularly in the occupied western territories, both the Currency Control Offices and the Customs Investigation Offices obtained rich booty?

PUHL: The total of the valuables which were brought in by both these offices is unknown to me. I rather doubt that it was extraordinarily big. However, they were fairly large sums, mostly, of course, in foreign currency.

DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, do you want to ask him anything?

MR. DODD: After having heard Herr Thoms’ testimony, do you wish to change any of your testimony that you gave this morning?

PUHL: No.

MR. DODD: And your affidavit that you gave under oath, do you wish to have it remain as it is?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: That is all I have.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you know who Kropp, who signed under the word “Hauptkasse” in the letter of 31 March 1944, Document 3947-PS, is?

PUHL: Herr Kropp was an official of our Treasury Department. He had a comparatively responsible position.

THE PRESIDENT: Of which department?

PUHL: The Treasury Department.

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. The witness can retire.

[The witness left the stand.]

Dr. Siemers.

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral Raeder, will you come up to the witness stand?

[The Defendant Raeder took the stand.]

May I remind you that I put the basic question whether the construction of the Navy was to serve aggressive or defensive purposes.

The witness wishes to answer that question by referring to parts of the speech he made in 1928. It is Exhibit Number Raeder-6, Document Book 1, Page 5, and the speech itself begins on Page 17.

Please go ahead.

RAEDER: First of all, I want to say that Minister Severing, whom I had asked for as one of my witnesses, brought this speech along of his own free will, as he still remembers the year 1928.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, this is to be found on Page 16 of the document book. It is Raeder’s letter to Minister Severing, dated 8 October 1928. Severing gave me this speech when he came to Nuremberg to appear as a witness.

RAEDER: I shall quote from Page 17, the fifth line from the bottom, to shorten the sentence somewhat for the interpreters:

“The Armed Forces—I am speaking of course primarily for the Navy, but I know that today it is the same with the Army, because since 1919 its inner solidarity and training has been perfected with the greatest devotion and loyalty to duty—in their present structure, whether officer or soldier, in their present form of development and their inner attitude, are a firm and reliable support, I might even say, because of their inherent military might and in view of conditions within the Reich, the firmest and most reliable support of our German fatherland, the German Reich, the German Republic, and its Constitution; and the Armed Forces are proud to be that.”

I then turn to Page 3, and it is the sixth line:

“If, however, the State is to endure, this power must be available only to the constitutional authorities. No one else may have it; that is, not even the political parties. The Wehrmacht must be completely nonpolitical and be composed only of servicemen who, in full realization of this necessity, refuse to take part in any activity of domestic politics. To have realized this from the outset and organized the Wehrmacht accordingly is the great and enduring achievement of Noske, the former Reichswehrminister, whom the meritorious Minister Dr. Gessler followed on this road with the deepest conviction.”

Then I talk about the composition of the Navy, and on the fourth page I continue, Line 7. Perhaps this is the most important sentence:

“In my opinion, one thing is of course a prerequisite for the inner attitude of the serviceman, namely, that he is willing to put his profession into practice when the fatherland calls upon him. People who never again want war cannot possibly wish to become soldiers. One cannot take it amiss if the Wehrmacht infuses into its servicemen a manly and warlike spirit; not the desire for war or even a war of revenge or a war of aggression, for to strive after that would certainly in the general opinion of all Germans be a crime, but the will to take up arms in the defense of the fatherland in its hour of need.”

Then I pass on to the last paragraph on Page 4.

“One must understand—for it is in accordance with the essence of the Wehrmacht—if it strives to be as far as possible in a position to fulfil its tasks, even under the conditions today, dictated by the limitation of the Versailles Treaty.”

I then refer to the tasks of the small Navy, and that is on Page 5, second paragraph, Line 6.

“Consider the extent of the German coast line in the Baltic and North Sea, chiefly the Prussian coast line, which would be open to invasion and to the ravages of even the smallest maritime nation, had we not at our disposal modern mobile naval forces at least up to the strength permitted by the provisions of the Versailles Treaty. Above all, think of the position of East Prussia, which in the event of the closing of the Corridor would be wholly dependent on overseas imports, imports which would have to be brought past the bases of foreign nations and in the event of war would be endangered to the utmost, or even be made impossible if we were not in possession of fighting ships. I ask you to remember the reports about the effect of the visits of our training ships and of our fleet to foreign countries, when, already in 1922, the model conduct of our ship crews testified to an improvement in the internal conditions of the Reich, and increased considerably the esteem for the German Reich.”

So much for this speech.

THE PRESIDENT: Since you are passing from that now, we might perhaps adjourn.

[A recess was taken.]

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral, hanging over this Trial are the words: “Wars of Aggression are Crimes.”

We have just seen from your speech that, as early as January, 1928, you used these words, before the Kellogg Pact. In conclusion, I should like to ask you, did this principle of January 1928 remain your principle during the whole time of your command of the Navy?

RAEDER: Of course.

DR. SIEMERS: In connection with the Versailles Treaty, I should now like to submit an affidavit, because some figures are necessary here which are easier to present in writing than by interrogation. I shall submit Affidavit II by Vice Admiral Lohmann, Exhibit Number Raeder-8, Document Book 1, Page 39.

For the guidance of the Tribunal, so that there may be no misunderstanding, I should like to point out that Vice Admiral Lohmann has nothing to do with the Captain Lohmann who was well-known, almost famous, in the twenties.

The Tribunal may remember that the Lohmann affair was mentioned in connection with the breaches of the Versailles Treaty. Captain Lohmann died in 1930, and has nothing to do with the present author of this affidavit, Vice Admiral Lohmann. I also remind the Court that the Lohmann affair took place before Admiral Raeder was in charge of the Navy, before 1928.

I quote from the Lohmann affidavit the statement under Numeral I.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you wanting to call this Admiral Lohmann as a witness?

DR. SIEMERS: No, I did not name him as a witness; I was satisfied with an affidavit, because of the many figures. The British Prosecution has already agreed to the affidavit being submitted, but asked that Admiral Lohmann might be cross-examined. It was arranged between Sir David and myself.

THE PRESIDENT: I see, yes. You do not need to go into all these figures of tons, do you? You do not need to read all these, do you?

DR. SIEMERS: No. I did not want to read the individual figures. I would point out that this affidavit does not deal with tonnage; it concerns Number Raeder-8, Page 39.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have got the one. There are a good many tons in it, though.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to read under Numeral I:

“Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was permitted to build eight armored ships. Germany, however, built only three armored ships, the Deutschland, the Admiral Scheer, and the Graf Spee.”—I will skip the following.

“II. Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was permitted to build eight cruisers. Germany, however, built only six cruisers.”

I shall omit the details according to the wish of the Tribunal.

“III. Under the Versailles Treaty, Germany was permitted to build 32 destroyers and/or torpedo boats. Germany, however, built only 12 destroyers and no torpedo boats.”

According to this, in building up the Navy, Germany in no way took advantage of the possibilities of the Versailles Treaty, and if I understand correctly, she specifically omitted the construction of offensive weapons, namely, the large ships.

May I ask you to make a statement about this.

RAEDER: That is entirely correct. It is astonishing that at this period of time so little advantage was taken of the Versailles Treaty. I was reproached for this later when the National Socialist government came to power. They did not bear in mind, however, that the government at that time, and the Reichstag, were not inclined to let us have these ships. We had to fight hard for permission. But this failure to build up the Navy to the strength permitted has no relationship to the small breaches of the Versailles Treaty, which we committed mainly in order to build up, one could say, a pitiable defense of the coast in the event of extreme emergency.

DR. SIEMERS: I shall come back to Document C-32. It is established that during the time of the Versailles Treaty, Germany did not take advantage of the provisions of the Treaty, particularly in regard to offensive weapons. On the other hand, on the basis of the documents submitted by the Prosecution, it has been established and it is also historically known, that the Navy in building itself up committed breaches of the Versailles Treaty in other directions. I should like to discuss with you the individual breaches which were presented with great precision by the Prosecution. But first I should like to discuss the general accusation, which I have already mentioned, that these breaches were committed behind the back of the Reichstag and the Government.

Is this accusation justified?

RAEDER: Not at all. I must repeat that I was connected with these breaches only when on 1 October 1928, I became Chief of the Navy Command in Berlin. I had nothing to do with things which had been done previously.

When I came to Berlin, the Lohmann case, which you mentioned previously, had already been concluded. It was in the process of being liquidated; and the Reich Defense Minister Gröner, when the affair was first discovered, ordered the Army as well as the Navy to report to him all breaches which were in process; and from then on he was going to deal with these things together with Colonel Von Schleicher, his political adviser. He liquidated the Lohmann affair, and this liquidation was still in progress when I came there.

On 1 October 1928 he had already come to the decision to transfer the responsibility for all these evasions and breaches of the Versailles Treaty to the Reich Government, as a whole, at that time the Müller-Severing-Stresemann Government, since he believed that he could no longer bear the responsibility alone.

As a result on 18 October, when I had just become acquainted with these matters, he called a cabinet meeting to which the Chief of the Army Command, General Heye, and I, as well as some office chiefs in both administrations, were called. At this cabinet meeting, General Heye and I had to report openly and fully before all the Ministers as to what breaches there were on the part of the Army and the Navy. The Müller-Severing-Stresemann government took full responsibility and exonerated the Reich Defense Minister, who, however, continued to be responsible for carrying things through. We had to report to the Reich Defense Minister everything which happened in the future and were not allowed to undertake any steps alone. The Reich Defense Minister handled matters together with the Reich Minister of the Interior, Severing, who showed great understanding for the various requirements.

DR. SIEMERS: At this cabinet meeting you and General Heye as Chief of the Army Command submitted a list of the individual small breaches?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: And thereupon the Government told you, “We will take the responsibility”?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Accordingly, in the following years did you always act in agreement with the Reich Government?

RAEDER: Yes, the Reich Defense Minister, Gröner, was extremely sensitive on this point. He had dissolved all the so-called “black” funds which existed and insisted absolutely that he should know about everything and should sanction everything. He thought that only in this way could he take the responsibility towards the Government.

I had nothing whatever to do with the Reichstag. The military chiefs were not allowed to have contact with the members of the Reichstag in such matters. All negotiations with the Reichstag were carried out through the Reich Defense Minister or by Colonel Von Schleicher on his behalf. I was therefore in no position to go behind the back of the Reichstag in any way. I could discuss budget matters with the Reichstag members only in the so-called Budget Committee, where I sat next to the Reich Defense Minister and made technical explanations to his statements.

DR. SIEMERS: From 1928 on, that is from your time on, there were no longer any secret budgets within the construction program of the Navy without the approval of the Reich Government?

RAEDER: Without the approval of the Reich Government and, above all, of the Reich Defense Minister who allotted the money to us exactly as the other budgets were allotted.

DR. SIEMERS: May I ask the Tribunal in this connection to look at Document Exhibit Number Raeder-3 which has already been submitted, “Constitution of the German Reich,” Document Book 1, Page 10, Article 50; it is brief and reads:

“In order to be valid, all decrees and orders issued by the Reich President, including those pertaining to the Armed Forces, must be countersigned by the Reich Chancellor or the competent Reich Minister. By the act of countersigning, responsibility is accepted by the Reich Chancellor.”

That is the constitutional principle which the Reich Government at that time—Stresemann, Müller, Severing—insisted upon in October 1928.

An important part of the building up of the Navy consisted in renewing the old capital ships and cruisers from the last war. In this connection, I take the liberty of submitting to the Tribunal Exhibit Number Raeder-7, Document Book 1, Page 23. This document deals with the so-called ship replacement construction plan. This ship replacement construction plan was, as Page 24 of the document book shows, Paragraph 2, Figure 2, submitted by a resolution of the Reichstag. I should like to refer you to Page 24, Figure 3, of the document which shows that this ship replacement construction plan covered three armored ships, and it adds that the construction might last until 1938.

May it please the Tribunal, this figure is important. The Prosecution desired to construe the chance fact that in 1933 a construction plan was drawn up to extend until 1938, to mean that there were aggressive intentions.

This ship replacement construction plan of the year 1930 had the same goal in 1938 and, as the Prosecution will admit, can have nothing to do with a war of aggression.

The plan was submitted then, Witness, through the Reich Government and you did only the preparatory work?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Is this only true of the ship replacement plan for 1930, or was it always handled in the same way in subsequent years?

RAEDER: The plan as submitted was approved in principle by the Reichstag. Each individual ship, however, had to be approved again in the budget plan of the year in which the construction was to begin. The whole construction program was thus always in close agreement with the Reich Government and the Reichstag.

DR. SIEMERS: In connection with this ship replacement program within the framework of the documentary evidence, I should like to refer to two points which will greatly shorten the questioning of the witness.

For the time being I do not want to quote from Page 26. I ask you to take judicial notice of the rest of the contents, and wish merely to point out that this refers to the great age of all capital ships, and their replacement which this necessitated.

On Page 27 of the document book it expressly mentions that the Reichstag in its 89th session of 18 June 1929 asked the Reich Government for an extension of the period for the construction program. The general opinion at that time was, as the ship replacement program shows, set out in the Frankfurter Zeitung of 15 August 1928, where the Frankfurter Zeitung points out that an armored cruiser gains its full value only when it forms part of a squadron. The Frankfurter Zeitung was, as is well known, the best German newspaper; and it was banned only in 1943 during the war by the National Socialist dictatorship which was growing ever stronger.

I should like to refer to Page 29 and quote one sentence:

“The building of battleships will be extended as far as possible, so as to keep the naval yards at Wilhelmshaven occupied continuously. The ideal time of construction is about three years; and it is then explained that, working on the principle of giving as long employment as possible, the building time is prolonged as much as possible.”

I believe this shows there was no aggressive intention, since otherwise the building program would have been speeded up.

Then I ask you to take judicial notice of Page 30, the construction cost of an armored ship having a tonnage of 10,000 tons, where it mentions that it was about 75 million marks. This figure is important to me as evidence in view of the further course of the testimony, where the cost of the breaches of the Versailles Treaty will be shown.

Finally may I quote from Page 30 a few lines which give the principle for the employment of the Wehrmacht. I quote:

“Since carrying out the disarmament program, which so far the German Republic alone among all the Great Powers has effected, for the Wehrmacht, which serves to protect the borders and peace, the following eventualities for the taking up of arms comes into consideration: (a) defense against the stealing of territories, (b) defense of neutrality in conflicts among third parties.”

[Turning to the defendant.] I should like to refer to the individual breaches of the Treaty of which the Prosecution has accused you. In this connection, I submit Exhibit Raeder-1, in Document Book 1, Page 1, and I refer to Page 3, Article 191. It concerns the accusation that Germany, contrary to the Versailles Treaty, constructed submarines. Article 191 reads, and I quote, “The construction and acquisition of all submersible craft, even for commercial purposes, is forbidden to Germany.”

I will soon put a question to you in regard to the established fact that the Navy was interested in a firm which dealt with the designing of submarines in Holland and in a general construction program for ships and submarines, which was being carried out in Holland; but in order to save time, it will be simpler if I read from the Lohmann affidavit which I submit as Exhibit Raeder-2, in Document Book 1, Page 4. I quote a short paragraph under 1:

“According to the Treaty of Versailles, the German Reich was neither to build nor to acquire U-boats. When in July, 1922, the firm N. V. Ingenieurskantoor Voor Scheepsbouw was established in the Hague, the Navy acquired an interest in it in order to keep informed on modern U-boat construction. The intention was to use the experience gained thereby for the German Navy, when later on the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles would be annulled by negotiations and Germany would be again permitted to build U-boats. Moreover, the Navy wanted, for the same purpose, to train a small nucleus of skilled personnel. The Dutch firm was strictly a designing bureau.”

May it please the Tribunal, as a precaution I should like to point out in this passage that there is a translation mistake in the English copy. The word “Konstruktion” has been translated “construction,” and construction means “building” in German. It was not a construction bureau. As far as I know, “Konstruktion” must be translated “design.” Since in view of Article 191 this point is important, I want to correct this.

I quote further:

“The first German U-boat was commissioned 29 June 1935. The procuring of parts to build U-boats had started correspondingly earlier.”

I wish to remind you that, when the first submarine was commissioned, the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, according to which submarine construction was permitted, was already in existence. I will ask if this statement of Admiral Lohmann is correct.

RAEDER: Yes. It entirely corresponds with the facts.

DR. SIEMERS: Then I come to Prosecution Document C-141, Exhibit USA-47. This is in the Raeder Document Book Number 10, on Page 22, in the compilation of the British Delegation. This is your letter of 10 February 1932 in regard to torpedo armament of the S-boats, the speed boats.

THE PRESIDENT: Is this in Document Book 10a or 10?

DR. SIEMERS: Document Book 10. The old document book.

THE PRESIDENT: I’ve got my pages wrongly marked somehow. It is all right.

DR. SIEMERS: Please excuse me. That is how the page numbers were given to me.

THE PRESIDENT: It is correct in the other members’ books.

DR. SIEMERS: The torpedo armament of speed boats was not expressly permitted in the Versailles Treaty and for that reason you are accused in this connection. Did this involve only the five speed boats mentioned in this document?

RAEDER: Yes. There were five boats which we had ordered for use as patrol boats in the shipbuilding replacement program and which in themselves had no armament.

DR. SIEMERS: How big were these boats?

RAEDER: Certainly not bigger than 40 tons, probably considerably smaller.

DR. SIEMERS: Were more boats of this type built during the Versailles Treaty?

RAEDER: I cannot say with certainty. In any case, we had no armed boats in addition.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, excuse me, that is what I mean—more armed boats.

RAEDER: No. We could build 12 plus 4, which makes 16 torpedo boats of 200 tons. A torpedo boat of 200 tons could not be produced in a practical manner at that time because of the question of the motors and the question of seaworthiness. For that reason we did not build these torpedo boats for the time being but kept in service a number of quite old torpedo boats, built at the beginning of the century, in order to be able to train crews with them. We could no longer use these boats for fighting. But so that—as long as we could not replace these boats—we might have a few boats capable of action, however small, which could be of use in blocking the Baltic, I ordered that these patrol boats should be equipped to take torpedo tubes on board.

However, so that in 1932 we should not make our situation worse by open breaches of the Treaty, when we hoped that at the Disarmament Conference we might make some progress, I had one boat at a time armed in order to fit and test the armament; and I then had the armament dismounted again so that there was always only one boat available with armament at any one time. We planned to put the torpedo tubes on board the speed boats only if the political situation, that is, the situation after the Disarmament Conference, would permit it. That is what I say in Number 3 in the concluding sentence.

DR. SIEMERS: I can take it then that we were allowed to build 16 torpedo boats making 3,200 tons in all?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: And instead we built only five speed boats totalling 200 tons?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Concerning the accusation made by the Prosecution that you did not count the speed boats against the torpedo boats you actually did not intend to keep anything secret; but you wanted to discuss it with the Control Commission when the time came?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Now I come to the most extensive document in regard to breaches which the Prosecution submitted, Document C-32, USA-50. The document is in Document Book 10a, Page 8; in the new document book of the British Delegation.

In this list all breaches are included under date 9 September 1933. The Prosecution justly points out that this compilation is very thorough; and the Prosecution presented it just as thoroughly, although, as I believe I can prove, they are, in the last analysis, small matters. I am compelled to ask the witness to answer these points in detail since they were brought up in detail. Breach Number 1 concerns the exceeding of the permitted number of mines. In Column 2 it states that according to the Versailles Treaty, that is, by the Commission, 1,665 mines were permitted; but we owned 3,675 mines. That is 2,000 too many. Will you please tell the Court the significance of this breach; it doubtlessly was a breach.

RAEDER: I should like to say in advance that this list was prepared for our Navy representative at the Disarmament Conference, so that if these things should be mentioned, he could give them an explanation. That is why it was so explicit, even though most of the things it contains are of minor importance. I should like to add to what I said previously, in regard to the danger of attacks by Poland, that in view of the political situation at that time we always feared that the Poles, if they should undertake an invasion of our country, might receive certain support from the sea by France, inasmuch as French ships, which at that time often visited the Polish port of Gdynia, could attack our coast through the Baltic entrances, the Belt, and the Sound. For this reason the defense of the Baltic entrances by mines played an important role. Thus, we undertook this breach of the Treaty in order to be able to close at least the Baltic entrances at the narrow points, which was of course possible only for a certain time. With these mines only a stretch of 27 nautical miles could have been closed. Thus, we would have been able to close a part of Danzig Bay on which Gdynia was situated, or a part of the Belt, by laying several rows of mines. This was the only method which could be effective for any length of time. This was purely a question of defense, but still they exceeded the number of mines permitted from the war supplies still available.

DR. SIEMERS: Just now in the calculation of the 27 nautical miles you included the total number which Germany had at that time.

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Not just the number which exceeded that which was permitted?

RAEDER: No, the total.

DR. SIEMERS: So that the number in excess is only half this number?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: And then I should like to have an approximate comparison. I was told, by way of comparison, that the British in the first World War laid about 400,000 to 500,000 mines in the North Sea. Do you recall if this number is approximately right?

RAEDER: Approximately it may be right. I cannot say exactly from memory.

DR. SIEMERS: I believe the approximation suffices to give a picture of the relative values.

A second small question now. Is it true that for mining English ports Reich Marshal Göring’s Luftwaffe in one action alone used 30,000 to 50,000 mines? Do you know of that?

RAEDER: I have heard so.

DR. SIEMERS: Then there is a second point. I quote, “Continuous storing of guns from the North Sea area for Baltic artillery batteries.”

This involves 96 guns, only 6 of which are of large caliber, the others of smaller caliber. May I ask you to explain this breach of the Treaty?

RAEDER: This is quite a small breach. We were allowed a comparatively large number of guns on the North Sea coast. On the other hand, according to plans the Baltic coast was comparatively bare of guns, since they wanted to retain free entry to the Baltic, whereas we had the greatest interest in closing the Baltic against attacks. For this reason we stored the gun barrels, which belonged in the North Sea but which had been brought to the Baltic for repairs, in sheds in the Baltic area for a long time in order to be able to mount these guns on the Baltic coast in case of attack. The North Sea coast had many guns; and because of the shallowness, it was much easier to defend than the Baltic coast. That was the breach.

DR. SIEMERS: In practice it only involved moving them from the North Sea to the Baltic coast. That is, not mounting them, but merely storing them.

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Then under Figure 3, another charge, “non-scrapping of guns.” A total of 99 guns is mentioned of which the ten largest, of 28 centimeters, were actually scrapped. Please comment on this.

RAEDER: When we acquired new guns, as for example, for the battleship Deutschland, six 28-centimeter guns were constructed, or for the Deutschland and the cruisers, forty-eight 15-centimeter guns, we had to scrap a corresponding number of old guns. Ten of this number were actually scrapped. All the guns were turned over to the Army for scrapping and we received a receipt for them, saying that the guns had been scrapped. We learned, however, that the Army in fact had not scrapped the guns, but with the exception of the ten 28-centimeter guns, it intended to use them for arming the fortifications to be built in case of attack, since the Army had no such guns at all.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to make the time clear. This must have been a breach of the Treaty which occurred long before the time you took office as Chief of the Navy Command.

RAEDER: This happened between 1919 and 1925 for the most part. In any case I had nothing to do with these matters.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 4 is very simple: “Deviation from the places settled by the Entente for the disposition of coastal batteries.”

RAEDER: Previously, up to the time of the World War, especially the heavy batteries and the medium-sized batteries were placed very close to each other, or rather in the batteries the guns were placed very close to each other. According to our experience in the World War the heavy and medium-sized guns within the batteries were placed further apart, so that a single hit would not destroy several guns at once. For this reason we re-arranged these heavy and medium batteries and moved the guns a little further apart. For that reason they were no longer exactly in the places where they had been at the time of the Treaty. Otherwise nothing was changed.

DR. SIEMERS: Would not these things have been approved by the Control Commission because they were purely technical?

RAEDER: I cannot say, I never took part in these negotiations.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 5 concerns the laying of gun platforms for artillery batteries and the storing of A. A. ammunition. In Column 2 there is again the question of changing to a different place than that allowed by the Entente. Does the same thing apply here as to Number 4?

RAEDER: No, not completely. We wanted to put the A. A. batteries where they were particularly useful and could be fully utilized, whereas the Commission did not want to have them at these places. As a result we left the A. A. batteries where they were; but at other points we prepared so-called gun platforms, which were improvised wooden platforms, so that in case of attack from any enemy we could set up the A. A. guns in order to use them most effectively. In the same way...

DR. SIEMERS: This is only a question then of platforms for an A. A. battery, only the foundations for a defense?

RAEDER: Yes, only foundations.

DR. SIEMERS: Then comes Number 6: “Laying gun platforms in the Kiel area.”

RAEDER: The Kiel area was especially bared of guns, because the entrance through the Belt to Kiel was to be as little armed and as open as possible. For this reason the setting up of guns in the Kiel area was especially forbidden; and in order to be able to set up some guns in a hurry, in case of necessity, gun platforms were prepared there also.

DR. SIEMERS: The next point the Prosecution gives comes under Number 7: “Exceeding the caliber permitted for coastal batteries.” “Coastal batteries” shows that it is for defense, but nevertheless it was brought up as an accusation.

RAEDER: Yes. It says here that instead of six 15-centimeter, three 17-centimeter guns were built. Of course, it is a deviation, insofar as the guns were to stay there; but it is open to doubt whether these six 15-centimeter guns might not have been better along the coast than the three 17-centimeter guns.

DR. SIEMERS: I see, you mean that they are actually less than the number permitted?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Instead of five 15-centimeter there were only three 17-centimeter?

RAEDER: Instead of six.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, instead of six only three, and the caliber was 2 centimeter larger.

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Then comes Number 8, the arming of M-boats. M-boats are mine sweepers.

RAEDER: We had the old mine sweepers which in case of attack on the Baltic were to serve the double purpose of finding the mines and of guarding the mine barrage which we wanted to lay in the exits of the Belt in order to close the Baltic, and of defending it against light enemy forces. For this reason we gave each one a 10.5-centimeter gun and one machine gun C-30.

DR. SIEMERS: Actually a minimum armament?

RAEDER: Yes, quite a minimum armament.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 9 can be quickly settled, I believe: “Arming of six S-boats and eight R-boats.”

The six S-boats are those which were discussed in the Document C-141?

RAEDER: Yes, it says here boats armed with torpedoes.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 10: “Setting up practice A. A. batteries.” Is that a breach of the Treaty?

RAEDER: Yes, it was, after all, an A. A. battery. It was only because near the garrisons where there were barracks with our men we wanted an opportunity to practice A. A. firing exercise. That is why we set up these batteries near the barracks. There was no intention of using them in this place for defense. It was only a matter of expediency for training.

DR. SIEMERS: Then comes Number 11.

RAEDER: The individual cases are gradually becoming more ridiculous. I consider it a waste of time.

DR. SIEMERS: I am sorry, Admiral, that I must put you to this trouble; but I believe it is necessary, since the Prosecution read almost all these items into the record and wanted to put a construction on them which puts you at a disadvantage.

RAEDER: Then there is the “Salute Battery Friedrichsort.”

Friedrichsort is the entrance to Kiel where foreign ships salute when they enter, and the salute must be returned. Two 7.7-centimeter field guns which had been rendered unserviceable had been approved for this purpose. With these guns, sharp-shooting was not possible; it was since there was a battery foundation already available there, that instead of these two 7.7-centimeter guns we should set up four 8.8-centimeter A. A. guns which were ready for full use. But this too was long before the time when I was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 16 May 1946, at 1000 hours.]

TRANSCRIBER NOTES

Punctuation and spelling have been maintained except where obvious printer errors have occurred such as missing periods or commas for periods. English and American spellings occur throughout the document; however, American spellings are the rule, hence, “Defense” versus “Defence”. Unlike Blue Series volumes I and II, this volume includes French, German, Polish and Russian names and terms with diacriticals: hence Führer, Göring, etc. throughout.

Although some sentences may appear to have incorrect spellings or verb tenses, the original text has been maintained as it represents what the tribunal read into the record and reflects the actual translations between the German, English, French, and, most specifically with this volume, Russian documents presented in the trial.

An attempt has been made to produce this eBook in a format as close as possible to the original document presentation and layout.

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* Page 155 in the text has a date correction where the Reich Defense Law of 4 September 1939 has been corrected to 4 September 1938.

“Under the Reich Defense Law of 4 September =1938= I have the direction for the economic preparations for the Reich defense, except the armament industry.”

[The end of Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal Vol. 13, by Various.]

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