Imperial fiscal reform

Preface

The first thirteen chapters of the following volume arc based upon a series of three articles which appeared in the February, March, and April numbers of the National Review last year ; my cordial thanks are due to the editor of that Review for his courtesy in granting me unrestricted permission to make use of those articles as I pleased.

As a matter of fact, I had no idea of reproducing them — at any rate, in a form which adheres so closely to that in which they originally appeared ; I had planned a work of wider and more ambitious scope, of the completion of which I have by no means abandoned the hope. But the announcement in May last by Mr. Chamberlain of his intention to submit the whole question of our fiscal policy to a general national inquiry, on lines which resemble those recommended in the three articles mentioned, and which he has for some years past foreshadowed, led me to believe that I should be rendering greater service to those who wish to take part in the inquiry by inquiring for themselves — ^the best and most effective way, indeed, in which they can so take part — if I reproduced immediately the figures and arguments by which I was led to my conclusions, instead of waiting in order to publish them in a more detailed and voluminous, perhaps in a more scientific, form. I have, however, considerably enlarged them, especially by adding to them at points where, owing to the exigencies of the space available for Review articles, the arguments seemed to lose clearness owing to compression, and where, for the same vi PREFACE

reason, important elements in the discussion — such, for instance, as food-supply in time of war — had been almost entirely omitted.

Although, however, the present volume appears nearly a year and a half later than the National Reviezo articles, I have, after careful consideration, deemed wiser not to take advantage of more recent Board of Trade returns than those on which I based my original statistics, but to leave the figures, as a general rule, as they at first appeared — to bring them up, that is to say, for matters of comparison, only to the end of 1899. My reason for this is that 1900, 1901, and the first half of 1902, were the times of the South African War, and that it is impossible in any way to estimate, even with approximate accuracy, what may have been the effect upon trade of that war. Indeed, I much doubt whether the efTect has been spent even yet. It does not, on the other hand, seem probable that the war, which broke out only in October, 1899, can have produced any sensible impression on the trade of that year. My suspicions in regard to the other years are confirmed to a considerable extent by the following figures :

British (Special) Exports.

1899. ooo's omitted.

igoi. ooo's omitted.

1902. ooo's omitted.

To Foreign Countries To British Possessions

£ 175,234

104.788

£ 174.395

109,029

Thus exports to foreign countries showed a constant decrease ; those to British possessions, on the contrary, increased by ^17,191,000 in 1901, as compared with 1899, and in 1902 by ;^2 1, 432,000. Of this remarkable growth of trade Natal and Cape Colony alone accounted for nearly six million pounds in the former year, and for upwards of

PREFACE vii

thirteen millions in the latter. Again, in the years i8gg and 1 90 1 the tonnage of British vessels entered and cleared (exclusive of coasting trade and of transports conveying troops) in the ports of the same two colonies amounted to 8,199,000 tons and 12,134,000 tons respectively, an increase of 4,000,000 tons. These differences, in so far as Natal and Cape Colony are concerned, are clearly due to the war, and it may be reasonably inferred that the great impetus which our colonial trade received during the same years — especially as regards exports, largely in payment, no doubt, of colonial produce sent to South Africa for the supply of the troops — arose from the same cause. Taken by themselves, figures such as these would afford strong additional support to the conclusions at which I arrive. But this would be an inexcusably careless and partial use of statistics by all means to be avoided,* Although, therefore, to stop at the year 1899 may make my figures appear somewhat out of date, I prefer to labour under that disadvantage rather than to put forward others which, for the purposes of reasonable and impartial argument, might prove to be false.

The concluding chapters of the book are entirely fresh matter, and have been written with the express purpose of discussing the principal objections to preferential treatment of the colonies. To deal with all the objections raised would be a hopeless task and quite unprofitable, as a great mass of them are based either on misconception or on ignorance of the economic forces involved, or sometimes on a purely political party view of the matter, which is almost worse than either ignorance or misconception. And here I would venture to

* I need scarcely say that I am here speaking only for myself. Others who do not consider the war to have placed our trade under abnormal conditions are, of course, quite justified in making use of the later figures, and drawing from them such conclusions as they may think proper.

viii PREFACE

call the attention of those who desire earnestly to search for the truth to two propositions, which will be maintained or referred to more than once.

The first is that — in my view, at any rate — preferential treatment of the colonies must not be looked upon as an end in itself, but only as a step towards true Free Trade within the Empire. If that could be accomplished, I believe that the objections of many to the change of fiscal system into which the nation is now called to inquire would fall to the ground, and that they would, if only as Free Traders, become its warm advocates. I do not wish to blink the difficulties in the way, the principal among them being, no doubt, the reluctance of the colonies immediately to take a step which their various electorates are not yet educated even to consider. My chief difference from such objectors as these is that they shrink from preferential treatment and the difficulties which might be found to attend it, and I do not, since it seems to me that the result of such treatment would be an object-lesson which would prove to be the best education the colonies could receive, while I believe the supposed disadvantage to the mother-country to be illusory.

The second is, that scarcely any greater error could be made than to draw hard and fast conclusions from the present conditions of the world without any regard to the future, as if all things were to be crystallized into their present state without any possibility of change for all time to come. It is on this fallacy — for, truly, fallacy it may be called — that are largely grounded such arguments as that we are ' sacrificing ' three-fourths of our oversea trade for the other fourth; I believe, indeed, that the fear that we are 'sacrificing' any part of that trade worth preserving is unfounded. Let those who are inclined to adopt such arguments consider the prophesies in regard to the future position — future at the time they wrote — of the United Kingdom hazarded by such men as Professor Thorold Rogers or Lord Farrer. It

PREFACE ix

would be difficult for any prophesies to fail more completely than have these — made only fifteen and twenty years ago. If those prophets were living now they would probably repeat their errors in foretelling the future importance in the commercial world of the colonial portions of the British Empire. One of our great national faults is want of foresight— a kind of mistaken conservatism which leads us to be so supremely satisfied with the present, and so absolutely convinced that our methods are superior to those of all the rest of the civilized world, that we need take no thought for the future, and that, should any great crisis come upon us, we are sure to * muddle through ' somehow or other. How perilously near disaster this spirit may bring us we have recently seen in the South African War ; and it is strange that those who most vigorously attacked that very attitude of the national mind in the case mentioned are in the fore-front of the support of the laissez-faire policy (applied now to our commercial aflfairs) which it embodies. But in commercial war — and I fancy that there are but few Free Traders, however ' convinced' they may be, who will deny that commercial war rages always and everywhere in these times — the nation which is once decisively beaten must go under finally and completely : there can be no muddling through. History proves this conclusively : the Italian Republics, Spain, Holland, what is their commercial position now ? We must therefore continually review our methods, to make sure that they are such as to ensure victory at any time. If, on review, w^e find those which we have in use to be the best, then most assuredly so much the better, for change is always difficult. If, on the other hand, we find them to be defective, then we must face the necessary change courageously and without an instant's loss of time, for in such matters ' he who hesitates is lost.'

In conclusion, I wish to express my grateful acknowledgments to Mr. R. F. Crawford for his kindness in allowing

X PREFACE

me freely to make use of his excellent notes in the Saturday Review on the food supply of the Empire, as I have done in Chapter XI, ; and to the eminent firms of auditors, Messrs. W. B. Peat and Co. and Messrs. Trenow and Heisch, for their invaluable assistance in the preparation of figures and tables.

Chapter I The Burden Of The Income-tax Payer Pagk

High level of expenditure unavoidable — Income-tax originally a temporary expedient — Mr. Gladstone's views thereon — Sir Stafford Northcote's views thereon — Undesirability of maintaining income-tax at high level — General considerations on reform of income-tax — Mr. J. S. Mill on income-tax — Mr. Sidney Buxton on secure and precarious incomes — Present compensating adjustments — Death - duties — General grounds on which reform of income-tax might proceed — Necessity in any case of reducing income-tax, and of broadening basis of taxation — Mr. Disraeli thereon - - - i — 17

Chapter II Changed Conditions

Necessity of comparing present with former conditions — Lord Farrer's predictions regarding United States — How completely falsified — Mr, A. S. Ackermann on Progress of United States — Mr. Moseley on same subject - - - 18 — 21

Chapter III Changed Conditions, Continued : The Effect Of Wars Upon Exports

Changes which have taken place — Improvements in means of communication— Mr. Gladstone thereon — Political unrest — Examination of effect of great wars upon exports - 22 — 30

[ xi ]

xii CONTENTS

Chapter IV Changed Conditions, Continued: The British Empire

i'ACiF,

Change in sentiment and relations between mother-country and colonies — Mr. Bright on disadvantage of colonies — More national considerations more rational — Former general opinion on colonies — Commercial treaties of 1862 — Indifference to colonies exists no longer — Trade consideration* — Increase of wealth and power of colonies — Various statistics thereon — Error of considering colonial wealth stationary — Former Government position towards preferential trade — Conference of Ottawa — Lord Jersey's despatch - - 31 — 46

Chapter V

CHANGED CONDITIONS, CONTINUED: THE IN- DUSTRIAL PRE-EMINENCE OF ENGLAND

England's advantages when Free Trade established— Mechanical and industrial pre-eminence — Advantage of Free Trade under these conditions — Expectation that Free Trade would be generally adopted— One radical error of early Free Traders that specialization a fixed principle — Attitude of other nations — Of United States — Of Germany — Comparative statistics concerning the United Kingdom, the United States, and Germany — Summary of changes since Free Trade established - 47 — 57

Chapter VI

Effect of those changes — British exports and imports — Sir R. Giffen on excess of imports — Subject requires continual scrutiny — Comparative classified statistics of United Kingdom, United States, Germany, and France — Analysis of these statistics — Deductions therefrom — Foreign competition in textile and steel and iron trades — Mr. J. Holt Schooling on shortage in British exports — Theory of ' something else ' — Volume of home trade relatively to foreign trade — Necessity of maintaining exports — Our position of chief ocean carriers not eternally assured — American Shipping Combine of 1902 — Mr. Morgan — Supremacy of our mercantile marine not founded on Free Trade . . . . . ^8 — 80

CONTENTS xiii

Chapter VII Home Trade Page

Examination of condition of home markets and production — Iron ore — Pig-iron — Coal —Wool — Meat — Milk— Cotton —Tea- Sugar — Tobacco — General conclusions as to production and consumption — Savings-banks deposits— Care required in drawing conclusions from these — Reluctance of English manufacturer to scrap machinery — Peculiar instance of decreasing power to compete to be found in Egyptian cotton — Necessity of strengthening home markets - - - 8i — go

Chapter VIII

Comparison of our trade conditions with those of United States — Capacity of British Empire — -Term ' home markets ' should be applied to whole Empire and not confined to United Kingdom — Colonial trade can compensate us for diminishing foreign trade — To ensure this preferential treatment of colonies desirable— Ultimate goal to be attained Free Trade within the Empire — Free Trade objections thereto — Cheapness to the consumer — Lord Farrer on Free Trade — Free Trade within Empire not immediately possible — Political objections to preferential treatment stated by Lord Rosebery — These objections ill-founded — Fear of 'dislocation' of trade ill-founded — Examples of this to be seen in foreign trade of France — Of Germany — Of United States . - . . gi — 103

Chapter IX

General principles to be followed in scheme of indirect taxation — Tendency of prices under such a system — Proportion of tax falling on inhabitants of United Kingdom — Examples : (i) When tax less than present profit — (2) When the two are equal — (3) When the tax more than the present profit — Tax should be kept within moderate limits — Position of United Kingdom under Free Trade within the Empire — Effect upon emigration --.-.. 104 — 113

CONTENTS

Chapter X Home Agriculture I'age

What articles of foreign import should be taxed? — Tax on food responds best to conditions enumerated — Agricultural possibilities within the Empire — Effect of Free Trade on agriculture in the United Kingdom — Mr. Rider Haggard thereon — Apathy of public men .-.--. n^ — 120

Chapter XI Imperial Agriculture

The secretary of the Cobden Club on possibility of home food supplies — Erroneous as applied to the Empire — Mr. R. F. Crawford on our dependence on foreign food supplies — On possibilities of food supply from Canada — From Australia — From South Africa — From India — Empire able to feed itself from within as well as from without - - - 121 — 125

Chapter XII

Food supply in time of war — Precariousness of our present situation— Necessity of our maintaining naval supremacy — Danger even if it be maintained — Possibility of other hostile measures than actual acts of war — Debates in House of Commons— Two capital errors in deduction usually drawn from failure of ' Continental System ' of Napoleon I. — In what respects our position better if food supplies drawn from colonies — Other unfavourable contingencies not dependent upon war — Example to be found in decreasing supply of raw cotton — British Cotton-growing Association — St. James's Gazette on Lancashire census returns ------- 126 — 136

Chapter XIII Preferential Customs Duties— Continued

Classified summary of purchases of United Kingdom of some principal food supplies — Shows situation advantageous for system of taxation proposed — But it would not largely revivify agriculture in United Kingdom — Colonies being 'producers' as

CONTENTS XV

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well as ' markets ' no objection — Cheapness the great object of Free Trade a delusion— Example of disutility in cheapness- Example of disadvantage in cheapness— True object of Free Trade — Under existing conditions impossible — Danger of these conditions to us — Further delusions of Free Traders — Principle to be followed in future commercial treaties - 137—144

Chapter XIV

Summary of main conclusions arrived at in previous chapters — Mr. Chamberlain's invitation to discuss Imperial fiscal policy — Question has not been sprung on country — Weight of national conservatism and self-satisfaction — Present movement originates from colonies — Conference of London, 1902 — Summary of Mr. Chamberlain's views then expressed — Colonial Premiers on Free Trade within the Empire — Unwisdom of treating objections to change of fiscal policy as merely ' ancient shibboleths ' — Summary of these objections 145—152

Chapter XV

' Taxation of the people's food ' — Effect upon prices of articles of food taxed — Compensating effect of free imports from colonies — Time necessary for that effect to be reached — Professor Davidson on effect of preferential treatment — Other opinions of Professor Davidson discussed — Possible compensation by reduction of taxes on other imports of food — Question whether theoretically advisable^Other causes, apart from war, for rise in food prices — Encouragement of colonial supplies a remedy for some time — Also increased supply of labour in the colonies — Effect of action of Beef Trust compared with shilling corn tax — Error of supposition that if food prices rise per se wages must also rise — Necessity of consideration of concurrent circumstances — Discussion of these — Leads to conclusion that economic wages would rise — Same considerations apply to what are sometimes erroneously considered as ' non-productive ' classes — Effect of proposed scheme on ' submerged third ' — Consideration of usual Free Trade argument as applied to this scheme — Which will be found to ameliorate condition of poorer classes of population - - - 153—168 xvi CONTENTS

Chapter XVI Is Protection An Obstacle ? Pagb

Discussion of second series of objections — Admission that reversion to Protection unavoidable — General dogmatic attitude of Free Traders — Different attitude of leading modern economists — Professor Sidgwick — Denial of his assertion that Protection here would encourage Protection elsewhere — Sir Edward Law on commercial treaties — Denial of assumption that Protection establishes I'outine methods — Why this is not the case — Discussion of assumption that Protection prevents capital from being most advantageously employed — Theory of international trade must be inductive — Mobility of capital and labour — Necessity of national consideration in international trade 169—176

CHAPTER XVn

THE MOBILITY OF CAPITAL AND LABOUR

This largely admitted by leading modern economists — Professor Sidgwick on possible economic effect on nation from cheap foreign commodities— Industrial advancement of England increases this objection — As does fact that her competitors are not Free Trade countries — Contradiction of Professor Bastable on this point — Dr. J. Beattie Crozier on effect on international trade of industrial ' giant capitals ' in foreign countries — Rejoinder to usual answers to this danger — Professor Nicholson's theoretic objections to ' something else ' theory — Professor Ashley on decreased mobility of capital — Professor Nicholson on migration of capital and labour — Main differences between these authorities and advocates of fiscal change - 177 — 184

Chapter XVIII Free Trade Exaggerations

Discussion of conclusion that prosperity of England is due to Free Trade — Other causes previously indicated — Further observations on improvement of means of communication — Mechanical invention — Its utility largely dependent on improved locomotion— Economic history of any country chiefly a history of

CONTENTS xvii

PAGE

means of transport — Modern instance of result of lack of such means — Effect of railway development in England ; on United States ; enhancement of this owing to steamships and electric telegraph ...... 185—189

Chapter XIX

Discussion of the assertion that ' cheapness to the consumer ensures the prosperity of all ' — What is cheapness ?• — Professor Marshall's definition of price — False cheapness — Professor Nicholson on possible disutility of cheapness — Further illustrations of disutility of cheap imports — Of bounty-fed imports — Mr. Gladstone thereon — Definition of cheapness — Do prices of imports correspond to this ? — M. Yves Guyot on bounties — Similarity of trusts and kartels to bounties — Foreign consumer able to support system by relatively high prices at home — Artificial lowness of price need not be great — Final consideration of cheapness to the consumer — Necessity of avoidance of such abstractions as ' economic nation ' — And of common error of distinguishing between consumers and producers as being two separate classes — Cheapness useless if production insufficient— Inadequacy of two replies generally adduced to this — (i) That England must continue to export manufactures to pay for imports — (2) That foreign nations would not ruin England by competition for fear of losing best customer — Is Free Trade or Protection best for England ? — Conclusion economically sound if national existence an element— Mr. J. A. Hobson thereon — Theory of infinite 'somethings else ' inadmissible — Professor Nicholson errs in believing that List can be cited against modern English Protectionists ---.-.- 190 — 201

Chapter XX

Above arguments greatly strengthened when applied to Imperial trade — Consideration of objection to ' dislocation ' of foreign trade in favour of colonies — Does our external trade now flow in its natural channels ? — Inferences already drawn from Board ii CONTENTS

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of Trade returns — Necessity of carrying inductive process some steps further — At this stage question of exports more especially treated — One advantage of paying for imports by exports — Observations on repayment of national capital and fallacies connected therewith — What is the good of exports ? — Replies to Cobdenite assertions on value of imports — Deteriorating effect on a nation of artificially cheap imports — Mr. J. S. Mill on the direct advantage of imports as compared with exports — Mercantile theory right in regard to national being — Importance ascribed to export trade not an error — Five grounds for this in modern England — Consideration of Mill's statement that loss of export trade is always replaced by equal amount of home trade — Examination of trade returns bearing on this point — Equivalence of exports and imports — Condition of trade with Protected rivals — Effect on home markets — Importance of export trade to a manufacturing country — J. S. Mill on production on a large scale — Application of this to modern conditions— Mr. Andrew Carnegie on importance of home market — Consideration of profits attendant on export trade — Present and direct profit — Indirect profit— Deferred profit ----- 202 — 218

Chapter XXI

Comparative examination of our export trade to ' neutral countries,' colonies, and dependencies — Special conditions of France — Comparison of progress of Germany and United States with our own — In regard to European countries — To American countries — To Far East — To British possessions — Free Trade assertion as to desirability of coal exports — General review of situation — First conclusion to be drawn therefrom — Second conclusion — Liability to dislocation of trade under free imports — Decrease of imports need not entail decrease of exports of produce — Effect of secure and expanding home markets on exports — Practical example afforded by Germany — Figures relating thereto shown by income-tax returns — By steel output — By railway statistics — By Messrs. Krupp's report — By other labour returns — Conclusions from these figures — Examination of some objections to moderate

CONTENTS xix

PAGE

tariff for England — Of ' Free Trade area ' argument for Germany and United States — Error of not regarding British Empire as a whole — Of considering Imperial trade as constant instead of progressive factor — Example of United States — Future advantages assured if we free ourselves of this error — Parallel between British Empire and List's modern Germany ------- 219 — 237

Chapter XXII Imperial Resources

Third class of objection that revenue from preferential tariff must ultimately disappear — ' Protection ' and ' prohibition ' not synonymous terms — Tariff under scheme proposed moderate— High tariffs in other countries do not prohibit imports — Under moderate tariff revenue would not approximate to disappearance— Also effect would be gradual — Meaning of falling revenue from this source as regards mother-country — As regards colonies — Other questions which must arise - 238 — 241

Chapter XXIII

Final series of objections : (i) Preferential duties have been tried before and failed — Examination of Adam Smith's conclusions applied tendentially to preferential treatment — McCulloch's confutation as regards mother-country — Ricardo's arguments not applicable — In aspect of modern conditions none of Adam Smith's three conclusions here examined hold good as regards colonies — Nor that regarding mother-country — Adam Smith on benefit of ' colony trade ' — Historical retrospect of preferential duties — From this two principal points observable — Effect of modern conditions in case of mother-country — In case of colonies — Professor Davidson's academic and practical objections — Former can be disregarded — Latter no longer holds good — Further change of conditions affecting both parent and daughter States — (2) Preferential treatment may cause intercolonial jealousies — Professor Bastable thereon — Difficulty of dealing with undefined objection — Treatment of

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supposititious case — Absurdity of attributing sordid motives to colonies — Remainder of final objections — Probability of difficulties in case of shortage of world-supply — And of reasonable attitude of colonies — Method of guarding against improbable different attitude — Are ties of sentiment all-sufficient ? — Professor Davidson thereon — Colonial 'gratitude' and Professor Davidson — And Professor Ashley — Imperial ignorance — Necessity of acknowledgment that ties of sentiment are not all-sufficient — If this not recognised disruption of Empire the natural course of events — Professor Hewins on laissez-faire policy and its certain results — On constructive Imperialism — Mr. Chamberlain on necessity of relations of interest — Conclusion ----- 242 — 267

APPENDIX I

On Professor Davidson's proposals- - - . 268 — 272

APPENDIX II

Table showing suggested taxation of imports of foodstuffs from

foreign countries retained for home consumption - 273

Tables showing average value of imports into various countries from the United Kingdom, the German Empire, France, and the United States ..... 274 — 283

Diagram showing the Effect of Wars upon Exports To face 27

ERRATA

Page 13. Foot-note. The inquiry alluded to has been abandoned.

Page 6^. Exports Table. (Shipping should be excluded.)

Last line but two ; for 239. 621 read 237, 845.

Bottom line : far 264, 492 read 255, 375. Page 102. (Shipping should be excluded.)

Top line : for £6 9s. gd. read £6 6s.

Second line : for £iS 7s. 8d., read £18 3s. nd.

Third line: for £•] is. 6d. , read £6 17s.

Fourth line : for £iq 15s. gd., nad £ig lis. 3d.

Chapter I The Burden Of The Income-tax Payer

High level of expenditure unavoidable — Income-tax originally a temporary expedient — Mr. Gladstone's views thereon — Sir Stafford Northcote's views thereon — Undesirability of maintaining income-tax at high level — General considerations on reform of income-tax — Mr. J. S. Mill on income-tax — Mr. Sydney Buxton on secure and precarious incomes — Present compensating adjustments— Death-duties — General grounds on which reform of income-tax might proceed — Necessity in any case of reducing income-tax, and of broadening basis of taxation— Mr. Disraeli thereon.

In his striking and singularly able Budget speech of April 19, I go I, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach committed himself to the following observations :

' We all hoped and expected that at the end of the war it [additional taxation] could be remitted ; but since then our ordinary expenditure, apart from the war, has enormously increased, and looking at the way in which the increase is going on . . . our ordinary expenditure would not permit us to remit the additional taxation imposed for war purposes last year, which, let me remind the Committee, included an income tax of no less than is. in the £. . . . To my mind, the great difficulty with which we have to deal now is not the war expenditure, but the ordinary expenditure of the country, and, therefore, in imposing such additional taxation as we may have provided to meet the additional expenditure of the present year, I think we are bound to make some endeavour to put our financial system on a broader basis so as to enable us to bear the additional expenditure.'

I

The House of Commons greeted these observations with cheers.

Now, expenditure, as not only the modern history of England, but of every other great civilized country, shows too clearly, has a melancholy tendency to increase. That, for instance, of Russia was in 1893 /'io4,4io,ooo, in igoo ^'199,417,000 ; of Germany in 1895 ^65,359,000, in igoi (oflicially estimated) ^117,229,000; of France in 1895 ;^i37,36i,ooo, in 1900 (officially estimated) ^152,232,000 ; of the United States in 1895 ^90)245,000, and in 1901 ^129,500,000.

In our own case the total expenditure, including payments to local taxation accounts, was in 1894-95 ^^100,932,000, and in 1901-02 ^205,236,200. Of this figure it may be assumed that about ;^62,ooo,ooo were absorbed in expenses consequent on the South African War, the expenditure on normal accounts having thus amounted to about /■i43,ooo,ooo.

For the current year the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his recent Budget speech, estimated the expenditure at ^'143,954,000 ; if to this be added the payments to local taxation accounts, the total expenditure for the year 1903-04 will amount to about ;^i 53,720,000. No doubt a considerable sum is here still included for expenditure resulting from the South African War ; on the other hand, we have the authority of Sir Michael Hicks-Beach for assuming that our expenditure must be maintained at a normal level of something like /i40,ooo,ooo per annum.