A conversation between Dominie and Patrick : or, The Bible vs. Papacy

Front matter

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A conversation between Dominie and Patrick its

Contents

The Name of Priest,...... whe oaks eee ates On Hearing the Church,......- sie: ia ase Searels Religious Teachers—the First TWELVE— PILLAR OF THE TRUTH, &€.,.++eee+ cece FALSE DOCTRINES—Special Cautions to BOMO VETS; Hi. baie A ce BIR eee cece ceeees Tradition—the two kinds—divine and human,

The Bible—for the People—and Every Christ-

Private Interpretation—The word SEARCH— Notes yi dbcas dale teide «Seu eret Ge Secliege weal ‘ The Pope—or who is the Rock and Head of the Church, se SC egilWien ees Jie <laaeesice ee The KEYS of the Kingdom—Moral bondage— Binding—Remitting, &c.,............ rans The Virgin Mary—ONLY Blessed among

Chapter II. On Hearing The Church

Dominie—Well, Patrick, we have a pleasant day, and may we meet in Heaven at last.

Patrick—Indeed it would be well, but that is not quite so certain, for Christ established one Church, and he who refuses to hear what she says, will hardly get to Heaven, according to my mind.

Dominie—Oh, I see that you are just as warm for your church as ever—Hear the Church! Just wait a moment, and let me read that chapter in Mathew 18:15, 16, 17—‘‘ But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shall gain thy brother; and if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear then, tell the Church; and if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.”

Patrick—And is not that sufficient to convince every Protestant of his errors, and to show him the way of his duty ?

Dominie—But let us think. Who is it that is enjoined to hear the Church, what person is it?

Patrick—It is every body,in my opinion. The Catholic Church can easily teach him the way.

Dominie—In the reading, it does not say every one ; but it says, “If thy brother offend.» So it does not mean a heathen, nor does it mean me, a Protestant, for Catholics don’t call me their brother. It is the brother, who is already in the church; if such an one offends against the rules or the discipline adopted by the church to which he belongs, he must account for it to his brethren who are members with himself in the same church.

Patrick—I had no ide’ that we should see it alike, for Protestants always look in a contrary way to us, and its a pity for them, and they'll go to

Dominie—Do not be in a passion, but tell me where the mistake is, if this is not the whole meaning of this Scripture. It is just the plainest Democratic rule of church discipline, and that is all. It binds no one to hear the church but the offending member of it, when the two previous steps have been properly taken with him.

Patrick—Well, it is my opinion that you will find many more places, before you get through the book, that go to prove that all are to hear the Church, whether Protestants or not, though I give up this, in the 18th chapter of St. Mathew.

Dominie—We should always be willing to give up error for the truth, and the opinions of men for the words of God. |

Patrick—Ill own up then that your explanation seems a little reasonable, but what the—

Dominie—That’s all I wanted you to say. As to the other places you refer to, it may be that this is one of them, in Luke 10: 16—“ He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth Him that sent me.” Or this, in St. John 15:20—“ If they have kept my saying they will keep yours also.’’

Patrick —Yes, that’s it, and words can’t make it plainer, that if any do not hear the priests of the Catholic Church, they do in fact despise the Founder of that same holy church.

Dominie—But let us again consider a little, just as before. There is no harm in thinking about it.

Patrick—Sure there is not, and let us see what your Protestant thoughts are this time, for they are a curiosity, and nothing short.

Dominie—It says, ‘‘ He that heareth you,’? &. Who is this “you 2? The Apostles, certainly, and not their successors ; and I am willing to hear this first ‘‘ you,” the twelve Apostles, for they are the you in this place.

Patrick—And are they not all dead and gone long ago? And you are willing to hear dead men! That’s first rate!

Dominie—Did you never hear of this concerning Abel’s offering, in Hebrews 11:4—‘And by it he being dead yet speaketh.” If they who wrote the New Testament do not by it, in it, and through it, still speak to us, then where are the doctrines of our religion to be found?

Patrick—‘‘ He that despiseth you despiseth me.” Ah, Dominie, remember what you’ve just read!

Dominie—Have ‘I not said, that I do hear the first ‘you? and if I do this, I hear Christ also, who is the ‘‘ me,” according to what it says——‘‘ He who hears you hears me?” I am nevertheless just as willing to hear those who come after this ‘‘ you,’? as any Catholic is, if they speak as the first did.

Patrick—I believe that our priests speak all that is right. Weare not all doubters like you Protestants, but can take their words gladly, and will do it.

Dominie—It is very well to be strong in faith, but sound faith must have something to stand on besides sand, Mathew 7:26. How can I or you possibly know that what their successors teach is like what the Apostles themselves taught, unless I am acquainted with what the Apostles taught as it is revealed in the New Testament?

Patrick—Then you would have every man teach himself by just getting that book.

Dominie—I would indeed have every man take heed lest the light that is in him be darkness ; Mathew 6: 23. |

Patrick—And so you make it out that if any one follows the New Testament, or the word of God, it is just as well as to hear the church?

Dominie—Yes, and a great deal better than to hear all churches; and what kind of a church must that be that wants me to do more, or is willing that I should do less, than to search, believe and obey the teachings of that volume.

Patrick—So you think that the Church has no authority above the Scriptures?

Dominie—My friend Patrick, do consider and see if she ought to have any besides.

Pairick—Every body may give his own private interpretation to things, that’s Protestantism.

Dominie—I see you are getting quite waked up to the subject.

Patrick—You are very near the truth, for so I am when one speaks ag’in my religion.

Dominie—Yet, it may be that you’ll call again some time, and let us speak a few words together about that wonderful phrase, private interpretation. Good-bye, if you must go.

SLL

CHAPTER III. RELIGIOUS TEACHERS—THE First TWELVE—PILLAR OF THE TRUTH, &c

Patrick—I thought I’d just step over a moment this noon, and hear your story out; for I may as well say that I make no more of it but a story.

Dominie—Walk in; you are always welcome. Do you mean the story of peace, which is the beautiful definition your language gives of the term gospel?

Patrick—I do not give my own private opinion of the meaning of the gospel, nor of anything that there is in it, at all.

Dominie—Oh, I see. You don’t hold to one’s thinking and seeing, and speaking for himself, Do you know where the place is, that tells about private interpretation?

Patrick—Yes; sure Ido. The holy St. Peter said it, who is the foundation of the church.

Dominie—For my part, I can see no way more safe, than to abide by what the first teachers left us; for, in hearing them, we hear Christ. We are warned to look out for wolves and false teachers, who would come in sheep’s clothing, as in Math, 7:15; Acts, 20:29; 2 Pet. 2:1.

Patrick—Indeed, a plenty of heretical and corrupt preachers have appeared, both in this country and the old, ever since Henry VIII—about 1515 A. D.—when your new religion sprung up at first, as I’ve heard ever since I was born.

Dominie—What rule do you judge by, to tell the true preachers from the false; for, if the Catholic church asks me to hear her doctrines, so may the Greek, Mahometan, or Mormon churches do the same, with equal show of fairness.

Patrick—It would be well if you knew the true way of the old religion of y’r fathers.

Dominie—How is it you say our religion is new, since we Protestants go back 1800 years, to the time of the Apostles, and try every other religious creed by their words, as recorded in the New Testament ?

Patrick—Has not our blessed Lord said that He would be with His church all days, even to the consummation? Math. 28 ;20.

Dominie—-Very well; but He did not say that He would be with the second or third twelve who might appear and call themselves Apostles, as it is written in Rev. 2:2—‘* Thou hast tried them which say they are Apostles and are not, and hast found them liars.” We nowhere read of the 24 or 36, or 48 Apostles, but only of the twelve.

Patrick—The Dominie must have read, in his time, how our church has not only the marks of Catholicity and unity, but is also Apostolical, and that’s more than any rotten branch can say that sprung off from it in any century yet

Dominie—Don’t beexcited. Ihave read in Rev. 215314, about the twelve Apostles of.the Lamb; but I have read nothing in the Bible at any time, to show that the original number was to be increased to three or four hundred, according to the Catholic record of their popes. Besides, if the successors of the first twelve were equally qualified in all respects for their work, as were the chosen Apostles, then there is no special reason for keeping the first Testament, as these successors must also be competent to supply one in each successive generation.

Pairick—And sure we have the first Testament—the pure gospel, without any of the Protestant corruptions in it.

Dominie—I know that you have one—at least a translation of a translation. But what is the use of it to any of you, since you only regard the notes? You have not a single copy of the Testament that is ican i the notes, in any land or in any language.

Patrick—Have I not seen notes, as you call them, in the Protestant Bible, and more than once, with my own eyes, and even at the beginning of the chapters?

Dominie—I grant it. But look at the difference—the notes in your Testament have all the authority of your church; while ours come with no such claims, but are simply the explanations or comments of the persons, whether clergy or laity, who publish it.

Patrick—Who can have any lawful right to publish or print the Bible, but the church, which daa it and has the authority over it?

Dominie—My answer is, that one individual has a right —an inalienable right—to publish that book as well as another, and in the way and manner that he thinks best, for who shall forbid him ?

Patrick—But I did not say that our priests take their texts out of the notes. If you would just be liberal enough to come and hear them of a Sunday, you would see that they give chapter and verse for their doctrine, for you know that the Catholic Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, in every land under the clouds of

Heaven, at least.

14 Dominie—I admire your zeal in upholding your ~ church, though it might be employed in a better cause. You say your church is the pillar of the truth, and do you think it is so really?

Patrick—I'd never deny that, for she has stood all the storms of 1800 years, like the everlasting mountains and rocks of Gibraltar.

Dominie—But the word pillar is mentioned in several places in the Bible, which we will turn to, and see what the meaning of it is—Gal, 2:9—‘“‘And when James, Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, &c.” Rev. 3:12—‘* Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God.” In these two places, we see that individual saints are reckoned as pillars. And if each and every Christian is considered a pillar, then we have the real meaning of that in | Tim., 3:15—‘ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know that thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

If each saint or disciple of Christ is one pillar, the whole church may very truly be spoken of as a pillar of strength, whether it be the church at Ephesus, where Timothy was, or the one at Philadelphia, or Sardis. |

Patrick—But you don’t believe in the true church, which has been so strong against all the opposition of infidels and schismatics, ever since it was first built up.

Dominie—I was going to say a word or two more about the use commonly made of a pillar in any building, or house, or temple; and certainly it is used to hold up something--to give the appearance of beauty and strength, &c., as in Prov, 9: 1—‘*‘ Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars.”

Patrick—Did you say that a pillar holds up something? Well, that’s so; the pillars at the capitol and state hall do, I know.

Dominie—Now then, we are coming near to it, for, as the Church is the pillar of the Truth, and as the two words—the Truth—always means the revelations of God, or the Bible, it follows that every pillar in the

Church, or every disciple in it, ought to hold up the Bible—ought to have it as it were on his head, or in his hand, and this I should call holding up the Truth!

Patrick—A Christian have the Bible on his head, or in his mouth, and on his tongue--a pretty sight that!

Dominie—God said to Joshua, concerning his law, something like this, Joshua, 1:8—‘‘ This Book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein; for then shalt thou make thy way prosperous, and then shalt thou have good success.”

Patrick—Where does it say that the Bible is the Truth, and who believes that it contains all of the Truth?

Dominie—In St. John, 17:17—* Sanctify them through thy Truth; thy word is Truth.’? Gal. 3:1—* O, Foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the Truth.” St. John, 5:33—‘ Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the Truth.’ St. John, 8:3). 32 —‘* Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, if ye continue in my Word, then are ye my disciples in- . deed, and ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.”

Patrick—You Protestants have a nice way of explaining Scripture, or rather of making it expound itself, which I call rolling it over and over.

Dominie—But this is the old way of doing it, according to what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor. 2: 12—* Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.’ Please mind that word comparing.

Patrick—I do not believe that any of your wisest men can stand up with our bishops, who have the finest education in the world, or on all the continents, east or west, north or south.

Dominie—I am not entirely unknown to your clergy, and I confess that I have found them just like their followers. They all follow the notes—in fact, one of them told me that he had no right to give his opinion on a text of Scripture which was named to him on a certain occasion.

Patrick—Did you ever read Pope and Maguire?

Dominie—Yes, and I am very sorry that Mr. Pope did not understand his side of the question a little better. But why did you ask this? Let us not wander too far from the point in hand.

Patrick—But you don’t seem to allow that our church, that is, that our prelates have the rule and authority over us.

Dominie—Do you mean that the Bible enjoins obedience to prelates?

Patrick—I do indeed, and it is in—in—

Dominie—I will turn to it, Heb. 13:7, 8—‘‘ Remember them, which have the rule of you, who have spoken unto you the Word of God, whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, to-day, and forever.”’

Patrick—This is just what we hold to, and we don’t believe one thing and do another, like—the—

Dominie—Be not too hasty. Is there any command to obey prelates in this? It says, ‘‘ remember them and follow their faith. Remember those who speak the Word of God to you, and whose conversation is about Christ all the day long. Whereas, if their conversation is about anything else, day by day; if it is about saints, or angels or about Mary the mother of Jesus even; and whereas, if they speak, or preach, or teach the words of the fathers, or the commandments of men, instead of God’s word—then they are not to be heard, or obeyed, or followed——‘‘ no not for an hour.”’°—Gal. 2:5.

Patrick—I wish te ask vou if the Scripture does not say that every preacher ought to be cursed, if he brings another gospel, whether he comes from heaven or earth, or down below both?

Dominie—Let me repeat the passage in Gal. 1: 8— ‘* But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.» Now mind that this matter of deciding which was the genuine gospel, is entirely in the hands of these Galatian brethren—the laity. They were to judge of the preaching whether it was true or false, of God or man; which most surely they could -not do at all, unfess they had the true standard—the Scriptures, to measure by. It is only the original plate that will show the difference between the counterfeit and the genuine coin.

Patrick—The creed of the Roman Catholic church is my standard, and I am not carried away from it by every wind that whistles in my two ears.

Dominie—I always knew that you was a Catholic, and I regret to have to tell you, that asking questions and making declarations, as to this or that, is not a very logical way of reasoning.

Patrick—But a poor man like me, who was never sent to college, how should I myself know all these mysteries?

Dominie—Do you mean to say that you are not as capable of judging about the nature of religious things, as these Galatians were, 1800 years ago? Will you just hear what is said to those and to others also, Gal. 6:4 —‘* Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.” 2 Cor. 13: 5—‘ Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves.” , eee Eales, 5: 21—“ Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

Patrick—Who is going to live long enough to study into all these things? I think it is much easier to take it from the mouths of the lawful teachers, than to be fretting yourself so much about proving—proving——

Dominie—Certainly it may be easier and more pleasing to the carnal mind, but is it a safe course in these personal matters of the soul’s salvation?

Patrick—‘‘ Examine yourself, if you be in the faith.” Does it say just that?

Dominie—No wonder you are startled, now you have thought of it. Will you hear this too, in 2 Cor. 5:10— ‘*For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.’’

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Patrick—I was baptised and confirmed in the Roman Church, if that is what is meant by proving all things.

Dominie—O, Patrick, your views, your words, they give me pain. At our next interview, 1 have some solemn things to tell you out of the Bible, about seeing to yourself. ‘* Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man ’’-——Jer. 17: 5, 10.

OANA

Chapter IV. Errorists-—special Cautions To Believers

Patrick—Perhaps y’r riv’rence did not expect me so soon as this quite?

Dominie—We can not be too early or too much in earnest about the state of our souls. The Bible says, ‘** hear, to-day—to-day ’*—Hebrews 3: 15.

Patrick—But we are always cautioned to keep ata distance from heretics, and shut our ears to their false doctrines. 7

Dominie — Cautions are indeed needful—-and I will recite a few out of the Bible. Matthew 7: 15— ‘* Beware of false prophets.” Matthew 10: 17—“ Beware of men.” Mark 8: 15—‘*Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.” Col. 2: 8—** Beware lest any man spoil you.” 2 Peter 3: 17—“ Beware lest ye also, being led away by the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.” Matthew 24:4—‘ Take heed that no man deceive you.”? Eph. 4: 14—‘* They lie in wait to deceive.’ Eph. 5:6—‘‘ Let no man deceive you with vain words. 2 Thess. 2:3—‘‘ Let no man deceive you by any means.”’

Patrick—Is it just as you repeat it?

Dominie—You can read it for yourself and see.

Patrick—Well, if all this is said to the people, then they should look out, and take care who they hear.

Dominie—You are right, for in regard to the soul’s salvation we can trust no man who does not speak from the Bible.

Patrick—How is it, that, beginning where you will, you always come out at the same place—right at the Bible? I almost wish there was none, sometimes. Dominie—If one begins with the Bible, and strictly follows its teachings, surely he will be found traveling in the one only true road to Heaven, where all wish to

Patrick—If I keep close to what our priests teach us, I shall not get far astray.

Deine lust hear this, in Matthew 15:14—** And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” And Isaiah 8:20—‘‘ To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.’’

Patrick—For generations back, all my folks have been as myself and why should I be wiser than they, or wish to be, in these things ?

Dominie—The first Christians, had they said the same as you do, would have perished with their countrymen in their ignorance.

Patrick—But if a man has joined the true church, wont that church take care of him, and put him through, and not let him drop an inch?

Dominie—Let me entreat you not to talk so, but to ponder those faithful warnings I have just quoted; and these other also: 1 Cor. 10:12—‘‘Wherefore, let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.” Luke 11:35—-** Take heed, therefore, that the light which is in thee be not darkness.” And in 1 Tim. 4:1—It is

@rophesied that in the gospel times some would depart from the faith of the Bible, through seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Patrick—Is this the reason why you are all the time for the Bible, the Bible, the Bible, and are afraid to Ol: low anything else?

Dominie—It is; for how should I dare to speak on religion out of my own mind, with this text before me in Romans 15:4—*‘ For whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.” And 1 Cor, 10: 11—‘‘ Now all these things happened to them for ensamples, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” Patrick—W ritten for our learning—does it say? Dominie—Yes. And I want all that was written for my learning, by the pen of inspiration, don’t you? Patrick—I never thought it was so before, and I can’t say ag’in it.

Dominie—I should be very sorry to have you do such a thing as to dispute it.

Patrick—Sorry! Good-bye, then, to y’r honor.

Ne

So CHAPTER V.

TRADITION—-THE TWO KINDS—DIVINE AND HUMAN,

Dominie—You left me rather abruptly, Patrick, the other day. I hope you was not displeased at what I quoted from Romans 15:4, &c.? ©

Patrick—* Written for our learning;” is that it?

Dominie—Yes, so it reads; and I hope you will speedily get the book that God says was written for you, and me, and all, to learn us.

Patrick—But your riv’rence don’t allow that our church has doctrines that have been handed down from generation to generation that are full as true as what is written, in some Bibles at least. : >

Dominie—I allow a part of what you say—that you have such a belief and such sentiments—but whether they are true, that isanother thing? The first preachers thought the Bible was sufficient, without the aid of any unwritten precepts or doctrines. ,

Patrick—Where does it say so? I'd like to see it.

Dominie—One place is in 2 Tim. 3:16, 17—‘‘ All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Patrick—Our Church has always held to traditions, and we shall not give them up—and Suppose saan can’t read the Bible?

Dominie—That would not make it true that there was any lack in the Scriptures to furnish thoroughly all needful instruction to every man of God; or to every sinner, who would be saved.

Patrick—But what can any one object to the holy traditions of the Church, pure as the morning light?

Dominie—That’s the very question—whether they are holy or wnholy—that makes all the difference in the world between us on this point.

Patrick—You don’t think that there are two kinds of traditions, do you—some good and some bad?

Dominie—We will open the book and see; Mark, 7:8, 9:— For laying aside the commandments of God, ye hold the traditions of men. - Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition,” &c. (See, also, Math. 15:1, 9.)

Patrick —I believe I see what you mean, and I won’t lie; for as true as auld Ireland itself, I never thought of that before—tradition of men!

Dominie—-Paul often warns the Saints of their danger on this point, as in Col. 2:8—‘‘ Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and deceit, after the traditions of men and not after Christ.” Deceitful men abound in traditions ever !

Patrick—Then one may be utterly spoiled by what men hand down; is that it, ye say? ‘

Dominie--Yes ; that was the condition of the Jews, in the time of our Savior; and ten thousand have been destroyed in the same way since that day, I am afraid! Traditions of men are dangerous things!

Patrick—The Apostle Paul was a Jew, and was he affected in this way, as the rest were, do you suppose, before he turned?

_ Dominie—So he says in Gal. 1:13, 14—‘‘ For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ reli- . gion; how that beyond measure I persecuted the Church ae of God and wasted it; and profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”

Patrick—It may, indeed, all be true in his case, that his great wickedness is to be charged to the circumstance of his holding to traditions; but you must not skip over the best part:--Father Dagon can lay it down stronger than this, I believe, in my inside heart, sure as I’ve got one.

Dominie—Peter, likewise, refers to the dreadful effects of a belief in traditions in these words—l1 Pet., 1:18, 19— ‘* For as much as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things as silver and gold from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers.’’

Tradition is here used to signify the totally lost condition of those who believed it,

Patrick—It was only last Sunday that I heard Father Dagon repeat it from the Scriptures, that we should stand fast and hold the traditions which we have been taught from our childhood up to this hour.

Dominie—Perhaps it was this, in 2 Thes. 2:15 and 3:6—‘* Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle. Withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

Patrick—Yes; that is the very passage itself, and it can’t be beat by any Protestant.

Dominie—Don’t boast quite yet; but let us look over this again—* Traditions taught by word, or our epistle!”’ What kind of tradition is that? Withdraw from him who walks not after the tradition or epistle.

Patrick—Yes, there is nothing better than this, and you can’t move it out of its solid place.